The American POTUS podcast is a 501c3 non-profit show, supported by listener patriots like you. To help us keep the program going, please join others around the nation by considering a tax-deductible donation. You can make your contribution and see what exciting plans we have for new podcasts and other outreach programs, at AmericanPOTUS.org. Thank You for your support and we hope you enjoy this episode.
Please consider a tax-deductible donation to support this podcast by visiting AmericanPOTUS.org. Thank You!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to American POTUS, apodcast devoted to the history
of the Presidents and thePresidency.
We're joined by the very bestexperts from around the globe,
giving their perspectives on thehistory of the office and those
who've held it.
On this special episode, I'mjoined by some great friends
from the First LadiesAssociation of Research and
Education, or FLARE, to discussthe terrific book they've
(00:24):
written, titled, Remember theFirst Ladies, the Legacies of
America's History Making Women.
Diana Carlin is a professoremerita of communication at St.
Louis University and a retiredprofessor of communication
studies at the University ofKansas.
She is co author of the book, U.
S.
First Ladies, Making History andLeaving Legacies, and is a
(00:46):
founder and current vicepresident of FLIR.
Anita McBride is an executive inresidence at American
University's School of PublicAffairs, where she directs the
First Ladies Initiative.
She served in theadministrations of Ronald
Reagan, George H.
W.
Bush, and George W.
Bush, serving in the latter asFirst Lady Laura Bush's Chief of
(01:06):
Staff.
She's on the board of the WhiteHouse Historical Association,
and is a founder and boardmember of FLARE.
And I must note, I got to knowAnita when she was among the
team that interviewed me, andgave, thankfully, the thumbs up
to be director of the George W.
Bush Presidential Library backin 2009.
Nancy Keegan Smith was anarchivist at the National
(01:27):
Archives from 1973 until 2013,retiring there after serving as
director of the PresidentialMaterials Division.
She is co editor of Modern FirstLadies, their documentary
legacy, a book I've used a lot,and is the founder and the
current president of FLIR.
And very importantly also, Nancywas among the team that took a
(01:49):
chance back in 1989 on a veryyoung Alan and hired me to work
at the Reagan Library.
Great.
So Diana, Anita, and Nancy,thanks so much for joining me on
American Poetess.
Thank you, Alan.
I so enjoyed Remember the FirstLadies.
But, you know, there arenumerous memoirs and biographies
of first ladies out there, plusa lot of historical
documentaries, some quite good.
(02:10):
Why did you write this book?
well, the way it came about wasthat I received an email almost
four years ago now from apublisher that had asked me if I
had a textbook idea to pitch,and at the time I suggested two,
and one of them was this book onfirst ladies, because I'd been
teaching about them for 30 yearswithout a book, and I knew a lot
(02:33):
of other friends who were doingthe same thing.
They loved the idea.
And I said, I can't do thisalone if we're going to do all
of them, and I have twowonderful prospects as co
authors.
And when I said who they wereand what their backgrounds were,
they decided, yes, that was agood team to put together.
So we first wrote the textbook,U.
S.
First Ladies Making History andLeaving Legacies.
(02:55):
And our editor, uh, said, whydidn't I learn any of this in
school?
Why is it now we're writing thisfirst college textbook and the
public needs to know this.
So would you be interested thenin turning it into what they
call a trade book, which became,remember the first ladies, which
has some similarities to thetext, but a lot of new material,
a lot of things went away.
(03:16):
And our goal was really to lookat The role of the first lady
from Martha Washington to Dr.
Biden, and to look at how it hadchanged, how did it stay the
same.
We had important themes that wewanted to discuss.
So some of our chapters arethematic, but the overall theme
was really what is this positionand how has it changed?
(03:38):
Really transpired throughoutAmerican history, and that's
really the glue that holds ittogether, is looking at the
things, like I said, that stayedthe same, what have changed, the
issues that some of these women,starting with Martha, have been
interested in, all the way up toJill Biden, such as veterans, so
that was why we wrote it, andyou know, there are biographies,
as you said, but this is a lookreally more at the position and
(04:01):
the women who've held it, and weonly talked about the wives.
Because we really believe thatthey're the ones who have the
influence.
And I think a lot of otherhistorians, uh, such as Dr.
Lewis Gould, who really startedthis whole area of First Lady's
studies, has said the wives arethe ones who have the influence.
So that's, that's how it cameabout.
A great result, by the way.
Really, a fascinating book, animportant book, I think.
(04:23):
Mm hmm.
What do you say?
I'm not among these.
I will say this.
What do you say to those criticsout there who say, well, the
First Lady is really just thespouse of the President.
How do you respond to themsaying that the First Lady
deserves serious attention bypolitical scientists and
historians and so forth Well,that's a great question, Alan,
with a very simple answer.
They are significant to ourhistory.
(04:44):
And if we talk about inclusivehistory in our country, how
could we not include these womenand their contributions for a
lot of the points that Dianaraised?
We know they had influence.
We know they were supportive oftheir husbands and the
initiatives that their husbandswere promoting.
(05:04):
They had.
Interests and ideas also oftheir own, and they really did
help over the history of ourcountry to help enact social
change and help makecontributions and in a way that
really connected with Americans,and I think one of the points
that Diana made to that thepublishers even said, when
(05:29):
putting the textbook together,that they never, you know, heard
some of these stories.
Well, students said this too.
When that textbook was tested inabout 5 different universities,
students had the same response.
Um, why did we never learn thisbefore?
So we know we were filling a gapin academic literature that was
(05:51):
really important.
We're pleased with the response.
The more and more we get it outthere, the more we realize we
are really helping to respond tothat question that you just
asked.
Why is it important that westudy them?
We study because it'ssignificant to our history.
Very much so.
Let's go back in that history tothe origins then, to the
(06:13):
founding, the foundinggeneration, Martha Washington
and Abigail Adams.
Dolly Madison, how did they workto establish some truly
significant precedence in theoffice of First Lady?
Well, Martha certainly haduncharted territory.
So, Whatever she did, it was herchoosing.
However, it wasn't completelyher choosing.
(06:34):
You know, one of the things thatmakes this position unique is
just the structure of ourgovernment, where the president
is both the head of governmentand head of state.
So the head of stateresponsibilities in other
countries are handled by amonarchy, if you have one, or
often it's the president versusthe prime minister, who's
government, president, state.
So the more ceremonialfunctions, a lot of the
(06:55):
diplomatic work, pardoningturkeys, whatever, you know,
that's also part of the role ofthe president.
And so the first lady has becomean integral part of that.
And George Washington made itvery, very clear that this was a
partnership.
He and Martha had always hadone.
She'd been with him at thewinter camps and she was called
Lady Washington.
First lady didn't really 1880s.
(07:20):
We'll talk a little bit moreabout who was the first one
called that.
But when Martha.
arrived about five weeks afterGeorge was inaugurated, he
greeted her on in New Jersey,took her across to New York, our
first capital, and handed her alist of assignments that he and
his cabinet and staff had comeup with.
And she was supposed to on everyFriday night have a levy to
(07:42):
invite anyone who was dressedappropriately and he would stand
off to the side and she was togreet people.
And this was to be part of thisDemocratic Republic, that they
were not monarchs.
Average people could come in andsee them.
You didn't have to bow, youdidn't have to have a special
invitation.
So that notion of hospitality,opening the President's home to
(08:05):
the public, really began withMartha and George, and they did
the same in Philadelphia.
And she had causes that she wasinterested in.
Veterans.
Any veteran who wanted to seeher, they got in.
She gave her own money toveterans or to widows.
She also supported women.
You know, there's a wonderfulbook of her letters, and there
would be women who were havinghard times or who needed help
(08:28):
starting a business orsomething, and Martha often did
that out of her own pocket.
She also was the one who Youknow, would provide the
diplomacy during dinners.
And there were a lot of peoplewho wrote about how gracious she
was.
So those are the pieces thatMartha really started.
But I think the most importantthing was what they did
together.
And that was saying, this is apartnership.
(08:49):
She also supported him.
For instance, he, he had a, asist right after he became
president and she attended thefuneral of one of the generals.
Representing him.
So this notion of being apresidential surrogate really
started with Martha.
So they provided thatfoundation.
And I'll turn it over to Nancyto talk about the next two.
(09:10):
I think that we do need tomention that the minus with
Martha was that she broughtenslaved people into the White
House.
So while Martha was anincredible first lady, our book
tries hard to balance the plusesand minuses.
(09:31):
Abigail deferred vehemently.
From, Martha on the issue ofslavery, she was basically an
ardent supporter of abolitionand came from a Massachusetts,
uh, congregational family.
Her father was a minister andshe just did not understand or
(09:55):
agree with Martha on that.
However, the two first ladiesbecame very close and Abigail
really respected what Martha haddone.
So the first thing that Abigaildid when she became first lady
is she wrote Martha asking foradvice on how she should carry
(10:16):
out the social function.
Martha writes her back.
Martha's very pleased by the waythat Abigail asked her advice
And Abigail essentially followsMartha's advice on receptions,
where Abigail is a littledifferent, is that she is, much
(10:38):
more involved with John as anadvisor, as a political advisor.
And their correspondence becamean incredible documentation of
the early history of ourcountry.
Because Abigail was only withJohn actually in the people's
(11:00):
house, in the head of governmentfor half of his administration.
She was either sick or with asick daughter, the other half.
And so they corresponded on alldifferent policy issues.
And before that, of course,Abigail wrote the famous letter
(11:23):
in 1776, when John was in theContinental Congress, from which
we sort of stole the title forour book, which is Remember the
First Ladies.
And she asked that they bekinder to them in what she was
hoping would be, theConstitution than the ancestors.
(11:49):
But it didn't turn out that way,because for ladies and their
rights, women and their rightswere not mentioned in either the
Declaration or the Constitution.
So in her correspondence,Abigail advises John on policy
issues, but she doesn't just useher correspondence to advise
(12:12):
John.
She sends it to friends and evenministers with the big Abigail
hint that if they might want tosend this to a publisher, they
should.
So Abigail sort of becomes thefirst person.
Uh, she's a very, uh, mediafirst lady, and then she really,
(12:34):
uh, sends her views, gets herviews in the press.
She also advised John onpatronage issues, who he should
hire, and who he shouldn't, andshe had very strong views on
that.
And she advised John on theAlien and Sedition Act.
(12:56):
Because by this time, when JohnAdams was the only Federalist
president, the nation had twoparties, the Democratic
Republicans basically headed upby Jefferson, which believed in
smaller government, agrarianeconomy, I'm making it very
(13:16):
simplified, and the Federalistswould believe in a stronger
economy and a more centralizedgovernment.
The alien and sedition actsprohibited dissension and
criticism of the government.
Jefferson was so upset when thealien and sedition acts were
(13:39):
passed.
He left the vice presidency andwent home to Monticello.
So, while Abigail did many goodthings as First Lady, part of
her negative heritage is hersupport of those very punitive
alien sedition acts, which somepeople say resulted in John
(14:03):
Adams not being re elected.
Dolly is an incredible firstlady.
She had a lot of experience justas Martha did in entertaining.
She had filled in often asThomas Jefferson's hostess when
Madison was Jefferson'sSecretary of State.
(14:26):
And her one of her most enduringmarks on first lady is she
really created the idea ofbipartisan entertaining.
She invited her husband's foesalong with his admirers and she
invited a lot of people and herreceptions were so crowded that
(14:50):
they became known as squeezes.
But she really started thatfunction, which is still
important today, and one wouldhope would come back, which is
facilitating her husband'sagenda by getting his foes and
his admirers together in acordial environment to encourage
(15:13):
discussion.
And Dolly was quite acounterpoint to James Madison,
who was short, wore dark suits.
because Dolly was tall, woreturbans, uh, French fashions and
always wore a plume so peoplecould identify her in the room,
(15:34):
and she was apps.
Absolutely charming.
In fact, when you read about hereven Madison's foes said that
they couldn't resist DollyMadison's charms.
She was also beloved for savingGeorge Washington's portrait in
the White House when the Britishattacked during the 1812 war in
(16:00):
1814.
And she really stayed till thevery end.
She also facilitated some keydocuments being removed.
And it was so close to theBritish coming to the White
House that the table was set fora function that for a dinner she
was going to do, but then reallyhad to leave because the British
(16:25):
were coming.
Her popularity was demonstratedby her funeral in 1849, which
was really the first statefuneral Washington, D.
C.
had seen, and President Taylordid a eulogy in which he said
Dolly Madison was the first ladyof the land.
(16:48):
So while it wasn't used tilllater, he sort of started that
idea.
I see.
Well, just think about the, theyouth of our nation really.
Dolly Madison died in 1849.
Not that long before the CivilWar.
So really the, that continuitywith, with the foundings there.
So getting up to that Civil War,you know, I spent three
(17:08):
Complicated years in, inIllinois as director of the
Abraham Lincoln Library Museumand got to know a lot about Mary
Lincoln.
Where do you all stand on hercomplicated and ultimately
tragic legacy?
Well, those two words,complicated and tragic, I think
are the two words that bestdescribe Mary Lincoln.
She, you know, if you stop andthink, before she ever entered
the White House, she'd alreadylost one child.
(17:30):
She lost another child in theWhite House.
And then she saw her husbandassassinated right before her
eyes.
Uh, she had, she came into theWhite House under criticism
because she was a Westerner.
And the first ladies from theWest who had preceded her had
also been criticized.
They were said to smoke corncobpipes.
(17:52):
Rachel Jackson was just, youknow, treated like this
backwoods person and a bigamistand everything else.
So when Mary came in, evenHarriet Lane, who was James
Buchanan's niece and served ashis hostess, said publicly, and
it was quoted in the Washingtonpapers, that Mary Lincoln didn't
deserve to be in the WhiteHouse.
He was an unsophisticatedWesterner and didn't deserve to
(18:14):
be in the White House.
She spoke fluent French.
She had studied philosophy.
She was an incredibly welleducated woman.
So, so some of her complicatedhistory is that she had to get
past that.
So she really felt that part ofthe way she would do that
Transcribed by https (18:29):
otter.
ai is even though we were in themiddle of a war, we needed to
show we were strong.
People needed to have somethingpositive, so she did these
lavish receptions and parties.
She spent four years worth ofallocations for renovating the
White House in four months, andshe found ways to hide her
expenditures.
She basically put her husband indebt, but at the same time, she
(18:53):
was very supportive of theabolition movement.
Out of her own pocket, she wassupporting some of the freed men
and women in the Washingtonarea.
Her seamstress was a freedwoman, Elizabeth Keckley, who
then wrote, a memoir about heryears with Mary.
So out of her own pocket, shewas doing that, and she later
wrote that the EmancipationProclamation was one of her
(19:14):
husband's greatest legacies.
At the same time, she hasstepbrothers and brothers
fighting for the South.
She's being accused of being atraitor to the South.
And she's being accused of beinga traitor to the North.
And there were even suggestionsthat she was a spy.
And Lincoln had to defend her.
So, this was not an easy time oran easy position, but she was
(19:37):
also going into hospitals.
And she was writing letters forthe wounded soldiers.
She was tending to them.
But a lot of her positivesdidn't get out in the press.
It was all the negatives therewere things written about her
that she had overstepped herbounds as a First Lady.
Like Abigail.
She was doing, you know,suggesting appointments.
(19:57):
Uh, but there was a differentkind of press corps even then
than what you had duringAbigail's time.
So, I think the way we come downon Mary is we've tried to show
the complexities.
We've tried to show thedifficulties she was under and
that, well, she maybe made somebad decisions.
You could also understand withinthe context of the times why
Mary was doing some of this.
(20:18):
Well, you can put me on the sideof an admirer of Mary Lincoln.
Certainly, uh, sympathize withthe terrible position she was
in.
I think a personal aside here, Ithink some modern historians
have made a career out of makingher into a punching bag, and I
think it's.
It's it overlooks a great amountthat she contributed to this
country and certainly to, uh, toPresident Lincoln's
(20:40):
administration.
So with that Alan Lowestatement, let's move on to
another firstly, I got to know alittle bit, about when I was a
acting director up in Hyde Park,the Roosevelt library, and
that's Eleanor Roosevelt.
You stayed in the books thatEleanor was a first lady of
first.
Why, do you state that?
Well, Eleanor really created theactivist role of First Lady.
(21:02):
And mind you, Eleanor did somuch that we really could do the
whole program on Eleanor, as wecould on many of these First
Ladies.
But she also had 12 years, so weneed to take that into account
too.
But she was seminal in her rolein championing civil rights.
(21:27):
human rights, women's rights,and helping the poor.
And she traveled an incredibleamount inside the United States
and outside to foster theseagenda items of hers.
Eleanor really had two crises.
that helped define her.
(21:48):
13 years after marriage and sixchildren she discovered that
FDR, who she loved dearly, washaving an affair with no less
than her social secretary, LucyMercer, and it was a huge crisis
in their family.
They considered divorce, FDR'smother, who was very strong
(22:13):
willed, Sarah Roosevelt, toldFDR that she would disinherit
him if he got a divorce.
And Eleanor was worried aboutthe children, and so the
agreement was that they wouldstay married, but that FDR would
never ever have an affair againand would cut off the affair
(22:36):
with Lucy Mercer.
Of course, he really didn't keepthat promise, but that was the
promise.
And Eleanor, in an odd way, itfreed her up.
She said herself that I have thememory of an orphan.
I can forgive, but I cannotforget.
And what happened was thatEleanor went on and became a
(23:01):
very independent woman and veryinvolved in local, state and
national democratic politics,very involved in pushing for a
variety of rights for theunderprivileged.
Then the second crisis happenedin 1921 when FDR got polio.
(23:24):
And she helped to nurse himback.
So one thing I would say, Alan,is when people say they just had
a political marriage after LucyMercer, I really think they had
a political marriage, but theyreally cared deeply about her,
each other.
I think it is too simplistic tosay that it was just a political
(23:48):
marriage.
After the polio, she encouragedFDR to get back into politics,
and in 1932, he is electedpresident.
While she was very happy forhim, she said it was the one of
the worst days of her lifebecause she ended up having to
(24:12):
give up all her many activities,including teaching, which she
loved.
And she felt like she was goingto lose her independence.
However, she, two days later,holds the first woman's press
conference, the first lady'spress conference, with all women
(24:34):
press reporters, and she wassupposed to only talk in that
March 1933 conference aboutfeminine things.
But Eleanor manages toimmediately get into substantive
issues.
She restricted the pressconference to women reporters at
(24:57):
Lorena Hickok, who was ajournalist and a close friend,
at her suggestion becauseEleanor was told that women
reporters in Washington, D.
C.
could not find the livingreporting.
For And so she stuck with thatand ended up doing, uh, over 330
(25:18):
press conferences.
She also became FDR's eyes andears.
traveled extensively supportingthe National Youth
Administration and other NewDeal programs.
Even went down into a coal minein West Virginia.
She was the first First Lady in1940 to speak at a political
(25:44):
party convention.
She spoke at the DNC.
She made very short comments.
But they were extremelyeffective at unifying what had
been a very tumultuousconvention.
She made numerous trips outsideof the country, and the one that
I would probably like to focuson is she made a five week trip
(26:07):
to the South Pacific in 1943.
And with that, and became thefirst First Lady to go to a war
zone when she flew and visitedinjured soldiers in Guadalcanal.
Civil rights, uh, again,Eleanor, as I said, we could
(26:27):
take a long time, but Eleanorwas a stronger advocate for
civil rights than her husband.
And consistently fought racialdiscrimination and prejudice.
And there are so many examples.
She was a member of the localNAACP, the Urban League co chair
(26:49):
of Abolish, the Poll Tax,convened the National Conference
of Negro Women, but the biggestone that was so effective was
when Marian Anderson, a blackopera singer, was denied
performing at, ConstitutionHall.
By the Daughters of the AmericanRevolution, Eleanor resigned
(27:11):
from the D.
A.
R.
and arranged for Marian Andersonto sing in front of the Lincoln
Memorial.
And that was the single biggestcivil rights event of its time.
70, 000 people, and it made ahuge point.
Eleanor became such a strongsupporter of civil rights,
(27:33):
saying one of the maindestroyers of freedom is our
attitude toward the coloredrace.
And the Ku Klux Klan ended upputting a bounty of 25, 000 on
her head.
Then, you would think after1945, when F.
T.
R.
(27:53):
dies, she would stop.
Certainly her children werehopeful, but Harry Truman
appoints her to be on the UnitedNations delegation.
And Eleanor actually said thather work on the UN, on the Human
Rights Commission was the mostimportant work she felt she had
(28:14):
done.
And she served as chair andheaded the writing of the U.
S.
Declaration of Human Rightspassed in December of 1948.
During all of these activities.
I just don't think Eleanor everslept.
She authored over 28 books,hundreds of articles, six serial
(28:35):
columns, 12 radio programs, andTV.
The most successful of which washer My Day column, which she
started in 1936.
She and continued until sixweeks before she died.
And in that column, she wouldreally give her own personal
(28:57):
opinions and political opinionsand talk to women all over the
country.
So, just to quickly do awhirlwind, she was an incredible
first lady and paved the way forso many firsts for a first lady.
Yeah, an extraordinary personfor sure.
(29:17):
So many enduring legacies tothis very day.
Another First Lady thatfascinates so many and has an
enduring legacy as well isJacqueline Kennedy.
I know you talk some in the bookabout how she worked to change
the style of the White House andits preservation.
So can you comment a bit on thatSure, I'll comment on that for
you, Alan.
(29:38):
But I'd like to add one thingabout Eleanor Roosevelt as I
could that responds to yourquestion about her, external
outreach, her outreach to thepublic.
You know, one of the things thatshe really also did was
encourage Americans to write tothe president.
And to write to her and itreally, you know, uh, ultimately
(29:58):
it resulted in a very robustcorrespondence operation, a
large operation.
She responded to many thingspersonally, but there were
people on the staff who did soas well.
I raise this because when I washired to the White House for my
first job in the Reaganadministration, it was as a mail
analyst.
(30:19):
So read the mail.
The person who trained me toread the mail was hired in the
Franklin Delano Rooseveltadministration.
She was still working therethen.
She was hired in early 1945,late 1944.
It's just incredible.
But anyway, it just made methink about other ways.
Eleanor Roosevelt reached thepublic besides the obvious ones
(30:43):
that we know.
But on Jackie Kennedy, here was,First lady, not too long after
Eleanor Roosevelt, just, youknow, 20 years or so less, um,
and step back from activism.
In fact, in our book, she is oneof the four first ladies that we
(31:03):
have in a chapter that isexactly that, stepping back from
activism.
Uh, But she still made enormouscontribution and one that is
very long lasting.
Her care and interest inpreservation of the White House,
not only preserving thecollections and, and maintain
(31:24):
and acquiring artifacts thatbelong to the White House that
have been lost for variousreasons, but also to teach, The
stories about the history of theWhite House, why it was
important for Americans to seethis as a integral part of our
history, using the White Houseas a global stage.
(31:46):
One of the major ways that shedid this too really was Her walk
and talk tour of the white houseon February 14th, 1962, millions
of Americans watched that tourof the white house by Jackie
Kennedy, who without a note infront of her and without
(32:06):
skipping a beat, went room byroom artifact by artifact to
explain what she was doing.
Cause there was some criticismby her husband and her husband's
advisors.
to take on an issue of historicpreservation.
They worried it sounded elitist,that it would be more harmful to
(32:27):
President Kennedy and his, um,uh, interest in administration
than it would be helpful.
But that walk and talk where somany Americans in their own
living room, on their littleTVs, Felt this enormous
connection to the white house.
She did that.
And she also established what isone of the greatest first lady
(32:51):
legacies is establishing thewhite house historical
association in 1961, stillgoing.
It's the funding arm, fullyfunds all the restorations and
acquisitions to the White House.
Jackie Kennedy knew there wouldnever be enough government money
to do the things that needed tobe done to preserve and protect.
(33:14):
The White House and to acquirewhat belongs in there.
So by establishing this, whichis still going and she did it.
Also, she helped to raise themoney in addition to raising
awareness about the White Housein this education effort that
she had.
She helped by raising the moneyby having the first guidebook to
(33:35):
the White House written that shesold where they sold for a
dollar for every tourist thatcame through the White House.
It raised so much money.
That book is still going.
It's in its 24th or 25thprinting.
It's constantly updated, ofcourse.
But what an incredible legacythat she felt it was.
(33:58):
Not only about protecting theWhite House, but also of the
education aspect.
And that still is one of thecore missions of the White House
Historical Association, isteaching and telling the stories
at all levels, from youngpeople, to adults about the
history of the White House, thepeople that lived in work there,
(34:19):
the important events thathappened there.
Again, so people would feel,Americans would feel connected
to it, but also understand theimportance of preserving it.
So it was, you know, she had atremendous sense of humor.
style and elegance.
Of course, she saw the WhiteHouse as a global stage and that
(34:40):
it should be used at this.
Of course, she did, you know,the, the trip to, uh, Europe
with her husband in 1961, seeingall these magnificent palaces.
She was cultured already.
She had studied Course in Frenchand spoke French, but why not
the White House?
This important historic homewith the American president
(35:01):
should be seen on the same way.
So beyond the internal,restorations to the White House,
really putting into place whatwould eventually be the first
curator of the White House.
She also cared about what theexterior looked like.
The gardens of the White House,the Rose Garden, worked with
(35:21):
Bunny Mellon and the presidentto design what would be an
outdoor public and global stage,as well.
So just incredible influencebrought her sense of style and
really left something in placethat is permanent.
And we all benefit from that.
I have such great admiration forthe work of the White House
(35:41):
Historical Association.
And I must say, Anita, I grew upin a household that revered the
Kennedys.
The story was, I was a bityounger, but my father said that
when Kennedy was in the WhiteHouse, my mother made it very
clear that if he came calling,she would be gone.
So Jackie, Jackie would have hadsome competition.
(36:01):
Men feel bad about Jackie too.
Exactly, exactly.
But again, an enduring legacythat she's left.
And thankfully today that WhiteHouse is an amazing place to
visit and so wonderfullymaintained.
And every, may I say, everyFirst Lady after her has
(36:22):
continued this very importantconnection and relationship with
the White House HistoricalAssociation.
It's a wonderful example ofreally how an important
initiative established by aFirst Lady can continue no
matter what.
Who the party is in power.
Now, Nancy Smith, I'm going toturn to you to talk about
(36:43):
another First Lady of Firsts,Lady Bird Johnson.
But I know, Nancy, you couldtalk all day about Lady Bird
Johnson as well.
So, so can you tell us, perhaps,let's just focus on, you say in
the book that Lady Bird changedthe model of the First Lady's
press function.
Can you perhaps justspecifically talk about that in
Lady Bird Johnson?
Yes.
(37:03):
Lady Bird, of course, came tobeing first lady in the most
awful way with the assassinationof President Kennedy.
But she did immediately inDecember of 1963, hired Liz
Carpenter to be both her presssecretary and staff director.
(37:25):
And Liz was the firstprofessional.
Press secretary hired by a firstlady.
Liz had been a professionalreporter.
Jackie Kennedy had a presssecretary who was not a
professional and who she reallysaid she would like that press
secretary to learn to say nopolitely.
(37:47):
So Mrs Johnson hired the firstprofessional press secretary,
Liz, and also, I think to thisday, remains the only first lady
who had a degree in journalismand had managed radio and
television owned and managedradio and television stations,
(38:07):
so it's important to note thatLady Bird felt very comfortable
with the media and had a lot offriends.
in the media, all of whom sheLiz use very effectively.
And I do want to make a largerpoint about first ladies.
There are first ladies like PatNixon.
(38:29):
Who have really not gotten theircredit, but you have to look at
it both in terms of history, butalso in terms of whether that
first lady engages with thepress or not, because the press,
as Mrs Johnson and Liz knew,were one way of making your
(38:49):
message and advertising yourmessage from a little place to a
much larger place.
And they were extremelyeffective at doing that.
Mrs.
Johnson made the staffing forLissa's office, her office, more
robust.
And they used the press, as Isaid, they invited the press on
(39:12):
the whistle stop campaign, herincredible campaign to go
through the south on civilrights.
In October of 1964, they wereoriginally inviting 50 and they
had over 200.
The train was so crowded.
It was incredible, and theyalerted press all along the way,
(39:33):
so the whistle stop campaign gothuge coverage.
They also created thesewonderful events in national
parks.
And you know, they had all theserafts, which where they fly the
press in and then for example, abig band go rafting and go
hiking.
One reporter took a red umbrellawith her while she was trying to
(39:56):
hike.
And Mrs Johnson actually helpedpull someone who had fallen off
a raft back onto a raft.
taking them along and carefullyplanning these events.
Help get them incredible pressand also she took press on trips
to advertise Lyndon Johnson'sUm, she was involved in a number
(40:21):
of great society programs likegoing to Appalachia.
They trekked up a hill to meet afamily, and so she said at the
end of her 1968, she talked tothe press and said that she
really wanted to thank them forgetting her message on
(40:42):
beautification, on, civilrights, on, the importance of,
you know, uh, the great societyprograms out to a much larger
group, and she felt of them asfriends.
And as Liz said, they reallywanted to use the press to get
from the society page to thefront page, which often they
(41:05):
were very effective at.
It's very interesting to look atMrs.
Johnson's press relations versusthose of President Johnson's.
Um, uh, and I'm very proud ofhim for this because he was
renowned for not havingparticularly effective press
relations, whereas she did, andshe actually at one point gave
(41:28):
him some pointers on how tohandle himself in a press
conference which is preserved ina wonderful Johnson tape that I
highly encourage people tolisten to if they haven't heard
it.
But she was masterful with Liz,it was a two part group in press
(41:49):
relations and in, indemonstrating how important that
function would be for futurefirst ladies should they choose
to use it.
And certainly, uh, if ourlisteners have not listened to
the Johnson tapes, immediatelygo do that.
It's an amazing history capturedon those tapes, uh, uh, very
(42:10):
serious things and very funnythings as well.
So, uh, another First Lady that.
I had real candor with press andwith the public about her
duties, about her life, wasBetty Ford.
So can you talk a bit, perhapsDiana, about what topics she
specifically brought into thelight and how she did that?
Well, there were two that Ithink really stand out when you
(42:31):
stop and think she only had 17months in office and she's one
of those first ladies who hasshown that that position can
transcend the time in the WhiteHouse because of everything she
did afterwards.
But a month after Gerald Fordcame into office 50 years ago,
she was diagnosed with breastcancer at the time.
(42:52):
You could not say breast.
on the air or write it in anewspaper.
No one used the word cancer.
If anyone had cancer, the wordwas not used in any news release
or whatever.
And she decided that If she hadbeen going along with her life,
everything was fine, and thenshe has a regular annual
checkup, and they discoveredthis lump that there must be
(43:14):
thousands of other women whoalso have undetected breast
cancer, and she felt like shehad this platform.
So she decided to make itpublic.
And she did.
So it was reported.
They used the word breastcancer.
They had photos of her sittingin bed talking to the president,
Bob Hope.
There were all these celebritiesin there chatting with her.
(43:37):
And there's that iconicphotograph because there were a
lot of concerns women had.
If they had a mastectomy, whatwas going to happen to muscles?
And so when she's leaving thehospital, she's throwing a
football to Gerald Ford.
Sort of honor his footballbackground and so she's showing
that she has this mobility andthis is right when she's leaving
the hospital like a week laterand she went on, you know, to do
(44:01):
her job.
And then the other thing thatshe really spent time on was the
ERA.
Pat Nixon had been a proponentof the ERA, and when the Nixons
left, Betty Ford took that on.
And this was at the point wherethey were trying to get state
legislatures to approve the ERA.
And so she was making calls tolegislators in key states that
(44:23):
hadn't approved it yet.
There were protests.
This is the one thing.
The cabinet wasn't happy withhow outspoken she was about this
issue.
It was also in 1975, theInternational Year of the Woman,
and she had this, there was thisexecutive order signed.
So she was very much out front,and this is during the period
when women's lib was a big dealand there was beginning to be
(44:45):
pushback.
So they were complaining thatshe was using taxpayer dollars
to influence public policy.
So she had her own phoneinstalled.
And there's a picture of her inour book at her desk.
With the don't tread on me flagon the front of the desk using
the telephone she paid for tocall state legislatures to try
to get the ERA passed.
(45:07):
Then she gave the 60 Minutesinterview where she talked about
everything, talked about family.
And it really made them looklike a family, that these were
Americans that had the samekinds of issues going on with
their kids that everybody elsedid.
And I think that was importantfor everybody to see the first
family.
(45:27):
Just like we said, Mary Lincolnhad been through tragedies that
other people had, that all firstfamilies are people, they're
families, they're human.
So those were three importantthings.
Then post White House, hercoming out about her addiction,
her prescription drug andalcohol addiction.
which Rosalynn Carter later didon health care, uh, with both of
(45:48):
them testifying in, in the1990s.
So her legacy with the HazeldenBetty Ford center is going to
live on for a long time, just asit already has.
So she's affected people'shealth in many direct ways Very
true.
Very true.
Now, Anita, I want to turn toyou next.
Uh, of course, you, you know,uh, Laura Bush much better than
(46:08):
I ever will, but I was sofortunate to be able to work
with her in Dallas.
As we created the George W.
Bush Library and Museum and wasfortunate during that several
times to meet First Lady BarbaraBush.
How would you characterize thesimilarities and differences in
how they approached their roleas First Lady Well, in the
similarities category, ofcourse, they both cared about
(46:29):
the issue of education andliteracy, and they really
devoted their lives to these twoinitiatives.
Barbara, I mean, Bush, uh,within just weeks of becoming
first lady.
And even while she was secondlady, you know, worked so
diligently on literacy issues,hosted so many events when she
(46:53):
was in the vice president'soffice, in the vice president's
residence.
And when she became first ladywithin weeks establishes the
Barbara Bush foundation forfamily literacy which is still
going to this day, raisingmillions of dollars and, and
supporting programs in all 50states.
(47:15):
In fact, next year, Juneau isher centennial, would be her
centennial.
And there are a lot of eventsthat will be planned around
promoting what Barbara Bush didas first lady with literacy,
Laura Bush, of course, served.
As a teacher in public schoolsand as a librarian care deeply
(47:35):
about these issues.
She too, within weeks ofbecoming first lady in 2001,
established the Laura BushFoundation for America's library
still exists.
Still raising money, stillgiving grants to schools in all
50 states to build theircollections.
In fact, when Nancy, Diana and Iwere in Arkansas at the Clinton
(47:58):
library in May to do an event onour book, we went to a local
high school, they're a charterhigh school and the librarian at
that high school got up veryemotional saying she was the
librarian at a Very smallelementary school in Little Rock
that got one of the first LauraBush grants and how much, and
(48:22):
she turned to the students thatwere in that auditorium and
said, if you went to thatschool, it's, it contributed to
you being here now.
I mean, again, you think aboutthe legacy and the things that
That live on that first ladiestried to do.
So that's where there aresimilarities.
They cared, about education.
(48:42):
They cared about literacy where,where things are different, of
course, where the times in whichthey serve naturally, but
Barbara Bush would never really,although she was married to one
of the world's greatestdiplomats and very much
supported all of George Bush'swork when he served at the UN,
of course, when he, he was envoyto China, she was there.
(49:04):
But she never would haveimagined herself doing the kind
of global work that Laura Bushdid during those years in the
White House.
And why was that?
Of course, because of the timesin which we live.
Post 9 11, there was a completepivot, as you know, Alan, from,
you know, The domestic focus,education reform, which Laura
(49:26):
Bush was involved in, to post 911, it was the war on terror.
And Laura Bush played a role inthat and spoke out on Afghan
women, traveled all over Africaand the president's global
health initiatives.
I remember talking to BarbaraBush about that she so admired
her daughter in law for all thatshe did internationally.
(49:50):
That it was just not somethingshe had to think about, but I
think all in all, Laura Bushlooked up to her mother in law
as someone that she learned agreat deal from.
I mean, Laura Bush was so luckyto have come into the White
House really better prepared.
Then almost anyone before her,uh, given the exposure and
(50:11):
experience, she had a visitingthere, staying there, knowing
the white house staff, theresident staff, knowing how
things got done.
Even so she would tell you,nothing prepares you for
stepping into that role.
But, the, the two of them, youknow, unique experience in our
history, obviously becauseAbigail Adams never lived to see
(50:33):
her son become president.
So was not really able to guideher daughter in law on being
first lady.
But I think at the end of theday, even though Laura Bush
never really liked politics,Barbara Bush did, they both
liked people and they use thatlove of, people in a way to
really connect on a veryauthentic level.
(50:56):
Really an incredible experiencegetting to know them even a
little bit and to recognize thatthat legacy they both have.
I don't know if you recall Anitathat day when the president gave
me the thumbs up to be directorand Laura was there, Mrs.
Bush was there.
He said, you're going to workwith both of us a lot, but
you'll like her better Iremember it in the, uh, in the
Oval Office, your meeting there,she was part of it, no doubt
(51:19):
about it.
And it tells you something, bothpresidents really in admired,
trusted and needed their wives.
This is, we talk about this inour book.
Some of how our first, the firstladies were successful is how
their husbands viewed theirrole.
And in this case, George H.
W.
(51:39):
Bush, definitely.
And George W.
Bush as well.
depended on their first ladies,depended on their spouses to
help them and gave them a wideberth.
Alan.
I just want to say springboarding off of the point that
Anita was making that we makethe point in our book that these
men were very, very luckybecause they married women who
(52:05):
Evolved the role and did so muchand they did not have to do
that.
And they'd done so many specialthings and left legacies in so
many different areas.
And so they were probably one ofthe best decisions most of these
precedents made were who theymarried.
(52:27):
Yeah, I think that's very, verytrue.
And as you talk about those,those contributions their roles
in the White House, you know,that role in the East wing of
the White House today, it'sbecome more and more formalized.
How many staff members todayapproximately work?
In that east wing and how dothey relate to those in the west
wing?
(52:47):
Well, the numbers have certainlygrown over time.
You know, we talked the firstformal position for a first lady
was Edith Roosevelt hiring thefirst social secretary.
And then of course it evolvedfrom, you heard Nancy talk about
Mrs.
Johnson hiring the first realprofessional, journalist to be
(53:09):
press secretary.
Jackie Kennedy before her had apress assistant.
Um, but, uh, and that was thefirst time there was really a
dedicated person for the firstlady.
But it certainly has grown sincethen.
And the pivotal moment foroffice of the first lady was
1978 under George W.
Bush.
Rosalynn Carter, who was reallya driving force behind expanding
(53:33):
the staff.
And, and the White HousePersonnel Authorization Act was
signed in 1978 in the Carteradministration, which really
formalized the office of FirstLady.
There was a budget assigned tothe office, but interestingly
enough, and still to this day,the staff of the First Lady are
(53:53):
considered Employees of thepresident assigned to the first
lady, because she's still not ina 50 role is still not an
official role.
There's, there was no statutoryrole for it.
Of course, over time, theintegrated relationship between
West wing and East wing is veryimportant.
(54:14):
And when the staffs coordinate,it's really best for both
principles and having workedthere, you know, three different
times, I've seen that evolution.
firsthand.
But I will say this, that what'sreally important about it for
both the first lady and herstaff is recognizing they're
(54:37):
there for the president.
They're there to support thegoals of the administration And
they find and identify the waysthat they can do that.
Ways that are authentic to them,the work that the first lady
engages in, of course, as shehas experience in and how that
supports the president and whenthe West wing staff recognizes
that, that the first lady andher staff is there to support
(55:01):
him, it works really well whenwe have examples in, in history
when the first lady is adistraction.
Or they get a lot of negativepress and it hurts the
president.
That is difficult.
It happened to Mrs.
Reagan.
It certainly happened to Mrs.
Clinton after healthcare reformfailed.
(55:26):
Uh, that was difficult.
But she made a pivot too.
And chose issues working onwomen's issues, global women's
issues that she continues towork on till this day, you know,
where she found a footing, and,you know, things work better
internally, but it's reallyimportant that the interaction
(55:46):
between West Wing and East Wingis coordinated.
You don't want the first lady tobe a distraction and you
certainly don't want her to beoff message.
But again, we all credit and inour book, we really do credit
Rosalynn Carter, whoincidentally, this is where her
greatest conflicts were with herhusband, he campaigned on
(56:06):
cutting the white house staff.
She's arguing to expand itbecause of the things she was
engaged in mental healthcommission and, you know, and
then globally how engaged shewas as well.
You know, she put in place astructure.
All of us who have worked theresince are very grateful for,
What about the roles andresponsibilities of this office?
(56:28):
Are going to change or stay thesame when we when we have our
first first gentleman, how willthat work?
Well, it, you know, we talkedabout this and as a nation in
2008, we came close when HillaryClinton was running for
president and, and her spousewould have been the first
gentleman.
He also would have been a formerpresident and we are big
believers the white house willadapt.
(56:51):
to the changes.
It has to.
It has shown the evolutionthrough history that it has
adapted to all of its occupants.
We know we have thisopportunity, right, or
possibility right in front of usright now with the announcement
that Kamala Harris is, isrunning as a democratic nominee.
Her husband has already served asecond gentleman.
(57:12):
He's given us a window.
Into how he would adapt to therole by first and foremost,
always saying in his interviews,his first job is to support his
wife, which is something thatfirst ladies say about the
president's, again, recognizingthey're the elected official,
but he also had carved out aninitiative that the white house,
(57:36):
that the president's team handedto him on antisemitism and had
been an advocate and a leadingvoice for that issue in the
Biden administration, he alsocontinued to work.
I mean, he left his law firm,but he continued to work as a
college professor at Georgetownuniversity in the law school.
Uh, the way Dr Biden continuedto work as a college professor.
(57:59):
So again, the position evolveswith each occupant and involves
as the country's evolving.
We'll have to call it somethingdifferent.
It may change the name of ourassociation as well.
That studies first ladies.
But I personally feel and Ithink Nancy and Diana would
agree with me that A lot of theresponsibilities will be the
(58:20):
same.
First and foremost, support thepresident, choose initiatives
you can engage on.
There is a ceremonial element tothe role, whether you're male or
female, that will come with itmay have to change, you know, a
little bit how the social officeworks.
But the White House is a veryadaptable place.
now you mentioned theassociation as we get ready to
(58:42):
close out Can you all tell me abit more about the mission and
the programs of flair as itsname for now?
At least what what does flair doand what is its mission?
Well, thank you, Alan.
Flair was formed the FirstLady's Association for Research
and Education in June of 2021,and it is an interdisciplinary
(59:04):
group of scholars, generalpublic, biographers,
journalists, historians,political scientists,
communication scholars.
a whole group of people who arevery interested in First Ladies.
And of course, in this electionyear, we have been very busy
(59:25):
giving interviews and articlesbecause First Ladies and their
role have been so key.
And so we ask that anyoneinterested go to flair net.
org.
We would encourage membership.
We have lifetime institutionalmembers, 11 of them, including
(59:49):
the White House HistoricalAssociation, the Gerald R.
Ford Presidential Foundation,the Bush Institute, the National
Archives and RecordsAdministration, just to, To name
a few, we do featuredpresentations, virtually.
There's one coming up at the endof this month on Dolly Madison.
(01:00:10):
So again, please go to You cango to flair dash net dot org
because those presentations areopen to the public.
We have social hours, whichreally allow important
networking that did not occurbefore.
Flare's establishment wherepeople can let people know what
(01:00:31):
they're working on and otherpeople can tap on their
knowledge.
We have speakers Bureau.
We have Coming up and exciting.
The first journal ever on firstladies should be coming online
soon.
It's an E journal.
And in this year we did ourfirst national conference in
(01:00:54):
April, uh, 2020 forward incelebration of Betty Ford and
her historic 1984 conference.
And we were co sponsors.
of luncheon with Susan Fordinvited, and Dr Biden was the
keynote speakers.
So it was very nice way to openin our first national
(01:01:17):
conference, and we certainlyplan on doing more.
So that gives you, I know we'rerunning low on time that gives
you a whirlwind, uh, flair.
Well, thank you Nancy, a reallyimportant work that flair is
doing Really great to have youall on american potus today.
(01:01:37):
Diana.
I need a nancy.
Thank you so much for joining meon the podcast.
Thank you.
We're delighted.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alan I want to thankeveryone also for listening.
Please visit AmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork there.
Thank you and join us on thenext American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS, apodcast devoted to the history
of the Presidents and thePresidency.
We're joined by the very bestexperts from around the globe,
giving their perspectives on thehistory of the office and those
who've held it.
On this special episode, I'mjoined by some great friends
from the First LadiesAssociation of Research and
Education, or FLARE, to discussthe terrific book they've
(00:24):
written, titled, Remember theFirst Ladies, the Legacies of
America's History Making Women.
Diana Carlin is a professoremerita of communication at St.
Louis University and a retiredprofessor of communication
studies at the University ofKansas.
She is co author of the book, U.
S.
First Ladies, Making History andLeaving Legacies, and is a
(00:46):
founder and current vicepresident of FLIR.
Anita McBride is an executive inresidence at American
University's School of PublicAffairs, where she directs the
First Ladies Initiative.
She served in theadministrations of Ronald
Reagan, George H.
W.
Bush, and George W.
Bush, serving in the latter asFirst Lady Laura Bush's Chief of
(01:06):
Staff.
She's on the board of the WhiteHouse Historical Association,
and is a founder and boardmember of FLARE.
And I must note, I got to knowAnita when she was among the
team that interviewed me, andgave, thankfully, the thumbs up
to be director of the George W.
Bush Presidential Library backin 2009.
Nancy Keegan Smith was anarchivist at the National
(01:27):
Archives from 1973 until 2013,retiring there after serving as
director of the PresidentialMaterials Division.
She is co editor of Modern FirstLadies, their documentary
legacy, a book I've used a lot,and is the founder and the
current president of FLIR.
And very importantly also, Nancywas among the team that took a
(01:49):
chance back in 1989 on a veryyoung Alan and hired me to work
at the Reagan Library.
Great.
So Diana, Anita, and Nancy,thanks so much for joining me on
American Poetess.
Thank you, Alan.
I so enjoyed Remember the FirstLadies.
But, you know, there arenumerous memoirs and biographies
of first ladies out there, plusa lot of historical
documentaries, some quite good.
(02:10):
Why did you write this book?
well, the way it came about wasthat I received an email almost
four years ago now from apublisher that had asked me if I
had a textbook idea to pitch,and at the time I suggested two,
and one of them was this book onfirst ladies, because I'd been
teaching about them for 30 yearswithout a book, and I knew a lot
(02:33):
of other friends who were doingthe same thing.
They loved the idea.
And I said, I can't do thisalone if we're going to do all
of them, and I have twowonderful prospects as co
authors.
And when I said who they wereand what their backgrounds were,
they decided, yes, that was agood team to put together.
So we first wrote the textbook,U.
S.
First Ladies Making History andLeaving Legacies.
(02:55):
And our editor, uh, said, whydidn't I learn any of this in
school?
Why is it now we're writing thisfirst college textbook and the
public needs to know this.
So would you be interested thenin turning it into what they
call a trade book, which became,remember the first ladies, which
has some similarities to thetext, but a lot of new material,
a lot of things went away.
(03:16):
And our goal was really to lookat The role of the first lady
from Martha Washington to Dr.
Biden, and to look at how it hadchanged, how did it stay the
same.
We had important themes that wewanted to discuss.
So some of our chapters arethematic, but the overall theme
was really what is this positionand how has it changed?
(03:38):
Really transpired throughoutAmerican history, and that's
really the glue that holds ittogether, is looking at the
things, like I said, that stayedthe same, what have changed, the
issues that some of these women,starting with Martha, have been
interested in, all the way up toJill Biden, such as veterans, so
that was why we wrote it, andyou know, there are biographies,
as you said, but this is a lookreally more at the position and
(04:01):
the women who've held it, and weonly talked about the wives.
Because we really believe thatthey're the ones who have the
influence.
And I think a lot of otherhistorians, uh, such as Dr.
Lewis Gould, who really startedthis whole area of First Lady's
studies, has said the wives arethe ones who have the influence.
So that's, that's how it cameabout.
A great result, by the way.
Really, a fascinating book, animportant book, I think.
(04:23):
Mm hmm.
What do you say?
I'm not among these.
I will say this.
What do you say to those criticsout there who say, well, the
First Lady is really just thespouse of the President.
How do you respond to themsaying that the First Lady
deserves serious attention bypolitical scientists and
historians and so forth Well,that's a great question, Alan,
with a very simple answer.
They are significant to ourhistory.
(04:44):
And if we talk about inclusivehistory in our country, how
could we not include these womenand their contributions for a
lot of the points that Dianaraised?
We know they had influence.
We know they were supportive oftheir husbands and the
initiatives that their husbandswere promoting.
(05:04):
They had.
Interests and ideas also oftheir own, and they really did
help over the history of ourcountry to help enact social
change and help makecontributions and in a way that
really connected with Americans,and I think one of the points
that Diana made to that thepublishers even said, when
(05:29):
putting the textbook together,that they never, you know, heard
some of these stories.
Well, students said this too.
When that textbook was tested inabout 5 different universities,
students had the same response.
Um, why did we never learn thisbefore?
So we know we were filling a gapin academic literature that was
(05:51):
really important.
We're pleased with the response.
The more and more we get it outthere, the more we realize we
are really helping to respond tothat question that you just
asked.
Why is it important that westudy them?
We study because it'ssignificant to our history.
Very much so.
Let's go back in that history tothe origins then, to the
(06:13):
founding, the foundinggeneration, Martha Washington
and Abigail Adams.
Dolly Madison, how did they workto establish some truly
significant precedence in theoffice of First Lady?
Well, Martha certainly haduncharted territory.
So, Whatever she did, it was herchoosing.
However, it wasn't completelyher choosing.
(06:34):
You know, one of the things thatmakes this position unique is
just the structure of ourgovernment, where the president
is both the head of governmentand head of state.
So the head of stateresponsibilities in other
countries are handled by amonarchy, if you have one, or
often it's the president versusthe prime minister, who's
government, president, state.
So the more ceremonialfunctions, a lot of the
(06:55):
diplomatic work, pardoningturkeys, whatever, you know,
that's also part of the role ofthe president.
And so the first lady has becomean integral part of that.
And George Washington made itvery, very clear that this was a
partnership.
He and Martha had always hadone.
She'd been with him at thewinter camps and she was called
Lady Washington.
First lady didn't really 1880s.
(07:20):
We'll talk a little bit moreabout who was the first one
called that.
But when Martha.
arrived about five weeks afterGeorge was inaugurated, he
greeted her on in New Jersey,took her across to New York, our
first capital, and handed her alist of assignments that he and
his cabinet and staff had comeup with.
And she was supposed to on everyFriday night have a levy to
(07:42):
invite anyone who was dressedappropriately and he would stand
off to the side and she was togreet people.
And this was to be part of thisDemocratic Republic, that they
were not monarchs.
Average people could come in andsee them.
You didn't have to bow, youdidn't have to have a special
invitation.
So that notion of hospitality,opening the President's home to
(08:05):
the public, really began withMartha and George, and they did
the same in Philadelphia.
And she had causes that she wasinterested in.
Veterans.
Any veteran who wanted to seeher, they got in.
She gave her own money toveterans or to widows.
She also supported women.
You know, there's a wonderfulbook of her letters, and there
would be women who were havinghard times or who needed help
(08:28):
starting a business orsomething, and Martha often did
that out of her own pocket.
She also was the one who Youknow, would provide the
diplomacy during dinners.
And there were a lot of peoplewho wrote about how gracious she
was.
So those are the pieces thatMartha really started.
But I think the most importantthing was what they did
together.
And that was saying, this is apartnership.
(08:49):
She also supported him.
For instance, he, he had a, asist right after he became
president and she attended thefuneral of one of the generals.
Representing him.
So this notion of being apresidential surrogate really
started with Martha.
So they provided thatfoundation.
And I'll turn it over to Nancyto talk about the next two.
(09:10):
I think that we do need tomention that the minus with
Martha was that she broughtenslaved people into the White
House.
So while Martha was anincredible first lady, our book
tries hard to balance the plusesand minuses.
(09:31):
Abigail deferred vehemently.
From, Martha on the issue ofslavery, she was basically an
ardent supporter of abolitionand came from a Massachusetts,
uh, congregational family.
Her father was a minister andshe just did not understand or
(09:55):
agree with Martha on that.
However, the two first ladiesbecame very close and Abigail
really respected what Martha haddone.
So the first thing that Abigaildid when she became first lady
is she wrote Martha asking foradvice on how she should carry
(10:16):
out the social function.
Martha writes her back.
Martha's very pleased by the waythat Abigail asked her advice
And Abigail essentially followsMartha's advice on receptions,
where Abigail is a littledifferent, is that she is, much
(10:38):
more involved with John as anadvisor, as a political advisor.
And their correspondence becamean incredible documentation of
the early history of ourcountry.
Because Abigail was only withJohn actually in the people's
(11:00):
house, in the head of governmentfor half of his administration.
She was either sick or with asick daughter, the other half.
And so they corresponded on alldifferent policy issues.
And before that, of course,Abigail wrote the famous letter
(11:23):
in 1776, when John was in theContinental Congress, from which
we sort of stole the title forour book, which is Remember the
First Ladies.
And she asked that they bekinder to them in what she was
hoping would be, theConstitution than the ancestors.
(11:49):
But it didn't turn out that way,because for ladies and their
rights, women and their rightswere not mentioned in either the
Declaration or the Constitution.
So in her correspondence,Abigail advises John on policy
issues, but she doesn't just useher correspondence to advise
(12:12):
John.
She sends it to friends and evenministers with the big Abigail
hint that if they might want tosend this to a publisher, they
should.
So Abigail sort of becomes thefirst person.
Uh, she's a very, uh, mediafirst lady, and then she really,
(12:34):
uh, sends her views, gets herviews in the press.
She also advised John onpatronage issues, who he should
hire, and who he shouldn't, andshe had very strong views on
that.
And she advised John on theAlien and Sedition Act.
(12:56):
Because by this time, when JohnAdams was the only Federalist
president, the nation had twoparties, the Democratic
Republicans basically headed upby Jefferson, which believed in
smaller government, agrarianeconomy, I'm making it very
(13:16):
simplified, and the Federalistswould believe in a stronger
economy and a more centralizedgovernment.
The alien and sedition actsprohibited dissension and
criticism of the government.
Jefferson was so upset when thealien and sedition acts were
(13:39):
passed.
He left the vice presidency andwent home to Monticello.
So, while Abigail did many goodthings as First Lady, part of
her negative heritage is hersupport of those very punitive
alien sedition acts, which somepeople say resulted in John
(14:03):
Adams not being re elected.
Dolly is an incredible firstlady.
She had a lot of experience justas Martha did in entertaining.
She had filled in often asThomas Jefferson's hostess when
Madison was Jefferson'sSecretary of State.
(14:26):
And her one of her most enduringmarks on first lady is she
really created the idea ofbipartisan entertaining.
She invited her husband's foesalong with his admirers and she
invited a lot of people and herreceptions were so crowded that
(14:50):
they became known as squeezes.
But she really started thatfunction, which is still
important today, and one wouldhope would come back, which is
facilitating her husband'sagenda by getting his foes and
his admirers together in acordial environment to encourage
(15:13):
discussion.
And Dolly was quite acounterpoint to James Madison,
who was short, wore dark suits.
because Dolly was tall, woreturbans, uh, French fashions and
always wore a plume so peoplecould identify her in the room,
(15:34):
and she was apps.
Absolutely charming.
In fact, when you read about hereven Madison's foes said that
they couldn't resist DollyMadison's charms.
She was also beloved for savingGeorge Washington's portrait in
the White House when the Britishattacked during the 1812 war in
(16:00):
1814.
And she really stayed till thevery end.
She also facilitated some keydocuments being removed.
And it was so close to theBritish coming to the White
House that the table was set fora function that for a dinner she
was going to do, but then reallyhad to leave because the British
(16:25):
were coming.
Her popularity was demonstratedby her funeral in 1849, which
was really the first statefuneral Washington, D.
C.
had seen, and President Taylordid a eulogy in which he said
Dolly Madison was the first ladyof the land.
(16:48):
So while it wasn't used tilllater, he sort of started that
idea.
I see.
Well, just think about the, theyouth of our nation really.
Dolly Madison died in 1849.
Not that long before the CivilWar.
So really the, that continuitywith, with the foundings there.
So getting up to that Civil War,you know, I spent three
(17:08):
Complicated years in, inIllinois as director of the
Abraham Lincoln Library Museumand got to know a lot about Mary
Lincoln.
Where do you all stand on hercomplicated and ultimately
tragic legacy?
Well, those two words,complicated and tragic, I think
are the two words that bestdescribe Mary Lincoln.
She, you know, if you stop andthink, before she ever entered
the White House, she'd alreadylost one child.
(17:30):
She lost another child in theWhite House.
And then she saw her husbandassassinated right before her
eyes.
Uh, she had, she came into theWhite House under criticism
because she was a Westerner.
And the first ladies from theWest who had preceded her had
also been criticized.
They were said to smoke corncobpipes.
(17:52):
Rachel Jackson was just, youknow, treated like this
backwoods person and a bigamistand everything else.
So when Mary came in, evenHarriet Lane, who was James
Buchanan's niece and served ashis hostess, said publicly, and
it was quoted in the Washingtonpapers, that Mary Lincoln didn't
deserve to be in the WhiteHouse.
He was an unsophisticatedWesterner and didn't deserve to
(18:14):
be in the White House.
She spoke fluent French.
She had studied philosophy.
She was an incredibly welleducated woman.
So, so some of her complicatedhistory is that she had to get
past that.
So she really felt that part ofthe way she would do that
Transcribed by https (18:29):
otter.
ai is even though we were in themiddle of a war, we needed to
show we were strong.
People needed to have somethingpositive, so she did these
lavish receptions and parties.
She spent four years worth ofallocations for renovating the
White House in four months, andshe found ways to hide her
expenditures.
She basically put her husband indebt, but at the same time, she
(18:53):
was very supportive of theabolition movement.
Out of her own pocket, she wassupporting some of the freed men
and women in the Washingtonarea.
Her seamstress was a freedwoman, Elizabeth Keckley, who
then wrote, a memoir about heryears with Mary.
So out of her own pocket, shewas doing that, and she later
wrote that the EmancipationProclamation was one of her
(19:14):
husband's greatest legacies.
At the same time, she hasstepbrothers and brothers
fighting for the South.
She's being accused of being atraitor to the South.
And she's being accused of beinga traitor to the North.
And there were even suggestionsthat she was a spy.
And Lincoln had to defend her.
So, this was not an easy time oran easy position, but she was
(19:37):
also going into hospitals.
And she was writing letters forthe wounded soldiers.
She was tending to them.
But a lot of her positivesdidn't get out in the press.
It was all the negatives therewere things written about her
that she had overstepped herbounds as a First Lady.
Like Abigail.
She was doing, you know,suggesting appointments.
(19:57):
Uh, but there was a differentkind of press corps even then
than what you had duringAbigail's time.
So, I think the way we come downon Mary is we've tried to show
the complexities.
We've tried to show thedifficulties she was under and
that, well, she maybe made somebad decisions.
You could also understand withinthe context of the times why
Mary was doing some of this.
(20:18):
Well, you can put me on the sideof an admirer of Mary Lincoln.
Certainly, uh, sympathize withthe terrible position she was
in.
I think a personal aside here, Ithink some modern historians
have made a career out of makingher into a punching bag, and I
think it's.
It's it overlooks a great amountthat she contributed to this
country and certainly to, uh, toPresident Lincoln's
(20:40):
administration.
So with that Alan Lowestatement, let's move on to
another firstly, I got to know alittle bit, about when I was a
acting director up in Hyde Park,the Roosevelt library, and
that's Eleanor Roosevelt.
You stayed in the books thatEleanor was a first lady of
first.
Why, do you state that?
Well, Eleanor really created theactivist role of First Lady.
(21:02):
And mind you, Eleanor did somuch that we really could do the
whole program on Eleanor, as wecould on many of these First
Ladies.
But she also had 12 years, so weneed to take that into account
too.
But she was seminal in her rolein championing civil rights.
(21:27):
human rights, women's rights,and helping the poor.
And she traveled an incredibleamount inside the United States
and outside to foster theseagenda items of hers.
Eleanor really had two crises.
that helped define her.
(21:48):
13 years after marriage and sixchildren she discovered that
FDR, who she loved dearly, washaving an affair with no less
than her social secretary, LucyMercer, and it was a huge crisis
in their family.
They considered divorce, FDR'smother, who was very strong
(22:13):
willed, Sarah Roosevelt, toldFDR that she would disinherit
him if he got a divorce.
And Eleanor was worried aboutthe children, and so the
agreement was that they wouldstay married, but that FDR would
never ever have an affair againand would cut off the affair
(22:36):
with Lucy Mercer.
Of course, he really didn't keepthat promise, but that was the
promise.
And Eleanor, in an odd way, itfreed her up.
She said herself that I have thememory of an orphan.
I can forgive, but I cannotforget.
And what happened was thatEleanor went on and became a
(23:01):
very independent woman and veryinvolved in local, state and
national democratic politics,very involved in pushing for a
variety of rights for theunderprivileged.
Then the second crisis happenedin 1921 when FDR got polio.
(23:24):
And she helped to nurse himback.
So one thing I would say, Alan,is when people say they just had
a political marriage after LucyMercer, I really think they had
a political marriage, but theyreally cared deeply about her,
each other.
I think it is too simplistic tosay that it was just a political
(23:48):
marriage.
After the polio, she encouragedFDR to get back into politics,
and in 1932, he is electedpresident.
While she was very happy forhim, she said it was the one of
the worst days of her lifebecause she ended up having to
(24:12):
give up all her many activities,including teaching, which she
loved.
And she felt like she was goingto lose her independence.
However, she, two days later,holds the first woman's press
conference, the first lady'spress conference, with all women
(24:34):
press reporters, and she wassupposed to only talk in that
March 1933 conference aboutfeminine things.
But Eleanor manages toimmediately get into substantive
issues.
She restricted the pressconference to women reporters at
(24:57):
Lorena Hickok, who was ajournalist and a close friend,
at her suggestion becauseEleanor was told that women
reporters in Washington, D.
C.
could not find the livingreporting.
For And so she stuck with thatand ended up doing, uh, over 330
(25:18):
press conferences.
She also became FDR's eyes andears.
traveled extensively supportingthe National Youth
Administration and other NewDeal programs.
Even went down into a coal minein West Virginia.
She was the first First Lady in1940 to speak at a political
(25:44):
party convention.
She spoke at the DNC.
She made very short comments.
But they were extremelyeffective at unifying what had
been a very tumultuousconvention.
She made numerous trips outsideof the country, and the one that
I would probably like to focuson is she made a five week trip
(26:07):
to the South Pacific in 1943.
And with that, and became thefirst First Lady to go to a war
zone when she flew and visitedinjured soldiers in Guadalcanal.
Civil rights, uh, again,Eleanor, as I said, we could
(26:27):
take a long time, but Eleanorwas a stronger advocate for
civil rights than her husband.
And consistently fought racialdiscrimination and prejudice.
And there are so many examples.
She was a member of the localNAACP, the Urban League co chair
(26:49):
of Abolish, the Poll Tax,convened the National Conference
of Negro Women, but the biggestone that was so effective was
when Marian Anderson, a blackopera singer, was denied
performing at, ConstitutionHall.
By the Daughters of the AmericanRevolution, Eleanor resigned
(27:11):
from the D.
A.
R.
and arranged for Marian Andersonto sing in front of the Lincoln
Memorial.
And that was the single biggestcivil rights event of its time.
70, 000 people, and it made ahuge point.
Eleanor became such a strongsupporter of civil rights,
(27:33):
saying one of the maindestroyers of freedom is our
attitude toward the coloredrace.
And the Ku Klux Klan ended upputting a bounty of 25, 000 on
her head.
Then, you would think after1945, when F.
T.
R.
(27:53):
dies, she would stop.
Certainly her children werehopeful, but Harry Truman
appoints her to be on the UnitedNations delegation.
And Eleanor actually said thather work on the UN, on the Human
Rights Commission was the mostimportant work she felt she had
(28:14):
done.
And she served as chair andheaded the writing of the U.
S.
Declaration of Human Rightspassed in December of 1948.
During all of these activities.
I just don't think Eleanor everslept.
She authored over 28 books,hundreds of articles, six serial
(28:35):
columns, 12 radio programs, andTV.
The most successful of which washer My Day column, which she
started in 1936.
She and continued until sixweeks before she died.
And in that column, she wouldreally give her own personal
(28:57):
opinions and political opinionsand talk to women all over the
country.
So, just to quickly do awhirlwind, she was an incredible
first lady and paved the way forso many firsts for a first lady.
Yeah, an extraordinary personfor sure.
(29:17):
So many enduring legacies tothis very day.
Another First Lady thatfascinates so many and has an
enduring legacy as well isJacqueline Kennedy.
I know you talk some in the bookabout how she worked to change
the style of the White House andits preservation.
So can you comment a bit on thatSure, I'll comment on that for
you, Alan.
(29:38):
But I'd like to add one thingabout Eleanor Roosevelt as I
could that responds to yourquestion about her, external
outreach, her outreach to thepublic.
You know, one of the things thatshe really also did was
encourage Americans to write tothe president.
And to write to her and itreally, you know, uh, ultimately
(29:58):
it resulted in a very robustcorrespondence operation, a
large operation.
She responded to many thingspersonally, but there were
people on the staff who did soas well.
I raise this because when I washired to the White House for my
first job in the Reaganadministration, it was as a mail
analyst.
(30:19):
So read the mail.
The person who trained me toread the mail was hired in the
Franklin Delano Rooseveltadministration.
She was still working therethen.
She was hired in early 1945,late 1944.
It's just incredible.
But anyway, it just made methink about other ways.
Eleanor Roosevelt reached thepublic besides the obvious ones
(30:43):
that we know.
But on Jackie Kennedy, here was,First lady, not too long after
Eleanor Roosevelt, just, youknow, 20 years or so less, um,
and step back from activism.
In fact, in our book, she is oneof the four first ladies that we
(31:03):
have in a chapter that isexactly that, stepping back from
activism.
Uh, But she still made enormouscontribution and one that is
very long lasting.
Her care and interest inpreservation of the White House,
not only preserving thecollections and, and maintain
(31:24):
and acquiring artifacts thatbelong to the White House that
have been lost for variousreasons, but also to teach, The
stories about the history of theWhite House, why it was
important for Americans to seethis as a integral part of our
history, using the White Houseas a global stage.
(31:46):
One of the major ways that shedid this too really was Her walk
and talk tour of the white houseon February 14th, 1962, millions
of Americans watched that tourof the white house by Jackie
Kennedy, who without a note infront of her and without
(32:06):
skipping a beat, went room byroom artifact by artifact to
explain what she was doing.
Cause there was some criticismby her husband and her husband's
advisors.
to take on an issue of historicpreservation.
They worried it sounded elitist,that it would be more harmful to
(32:27):
President Kennedy and his, um,uh, interest in administration
than it would be helpful.
But that walk and talk where somany Americans in their own
living room, on their littleTVs, Felt this enormous
connection to the white house.
She did that.
And she also established what isone of the greatest first lady
(32:51):
legacies is establishing thewhite house historical
association in 1961, stillgoing.
It's the funding arm, fullyfunds all the restorations and
acquisitions to the White House.
Jackie Kennedy knew there wouldnever be enough government money
to do the things that needed tobe done to preserve and protect.
(33:14):
The White House and to acquirewhat belongs in there.
So by establishing this, whichis still going and she did it.
Also, she helped to raise themoney in addition to raising
awareness about the White Housein this education effort that
she had.
She helped by raising the moneyby having the first guidebook to
(33:35):
the White House written that shesold where they sold for a
dollar for every tourist thatcame through the White House.
It raised so much money.
That book is still going.
It's in its 24th or 25thprinting.
It's constantly updated, ofcourse.
But what an incredible legacythat she felt it was.
(33:58):
Not only about protecting theWhite House, but also of the
education aspect.
And that still is one of thecore missions of the White House
Historical Association, isteaching and telling the stories
at all levels, from youngpeople, to adults about the
history of the White House, thepeople that lived in work there,
(34:19):
the important events thathappened there.
Again, so people would feel,Americans would feel connected
to it, but also understand theimportance of preserving it.
So it was, you know, she had atremendous sense of humor.
style and elegance.
Of course, she saw the WhiteHouse as a global stage and that
(34:40):
it should be used at this.
Of course, she did, you know,the, the trip to, uh, Europe
with her husband in 1961, seeingall these magnificent palaces.
She was cultured already.
She had studied Course in Frenchand spoke French, but why not
the White House?
This important historic homewith the American president
(35:01):
should be seen on the same way.
So beyond the internal,restorations to the White House,
really putting into place whatwould eventually be the first
curator of the White House.
She also cared about what theexterior looked like.
The gardens of the White House,the Rose Garden, worked with
(35:21):
Bunny Mellon and the presidentto design what would be an
outdoor public and global stage,as well.
So just incredible influencebrought her sense of style and
really left something in placethat is permanent.
And we all benefit from that.
I have such great admiration forthe work of the White House
(35:41):
Historical Association.
And I must say, Anita, I grew upin a household that revered the
Kennedys.
The story was, I was a bityounger, but my father said that
when Kennedy was in the WhiteHouse, my mother made it very
clear that if he came calling,she would be gone.
So Jackie, Jackie would have hadsome competition.
(36:01):
Men feel bad about Jackie too.
Exactly, exactly.
But again, an enduring legacythat she's left.
And thankfully today that WhiteHouse is an amazing place to
visit and so wonderfullymaintained.
And every, may I say, everyFirst Lady after her has
(36:22):
continued this very importantconnection and relationship with
the White House HistoricalAssociation.
It's a wonderful example ofreally how an important
initiative established by aFirst Lady can continue no
matter what.
Who the party is in power.
Now, Nancy Smith, I'm going toturn to you to talk about
(36:43):
another First Lady of Firsts,Lady Bird Johnson.
But I know, Nancy, you couldtalk all day about Lady Bird
Johnson as well.
So, so can you tell us, perhaps,let's just focus on, you say in
the book that Lady Bird changedthe model of the First Lady's
press function.
Can you perhaps justspecifically talk about that in
Lady Bird Johnson?
Yes.
(37:03):
Lady Bird, of course, came tobeing first lady in the most
awful way with the assassinationof President Kennedy.
But she did immediately inDecember of 1963, hired Liz
Carpenter to be both her presssecretary and staff director.
(37:25):
And Liz was the firstprofessional.
Press secretary hired by a firstlady.
Liz had been a professionalreporter.
Jackie Kennedy had a presssecretary who was not a
professional and who she reallysaid she would like that press
secretary to learn to say nopolitely.
(37:47):
So Mrs Johnson hired the firstprofessional press secretary,
Liz, and also, I think to thisday, remains the only first lady
who had a degree in journalismand had managed radio and
television owned and managedradio and television stations,
(38:07):
so it's important to note thatLady Bird felt very comfortable
with the media and had a lot offriends.
in the media, all of whom sheLiz use very effectively.
And I do want to make a largerpoint about first ladies.
There are first ladies like PatNixon.
(38:29):
Who have really not gotten theircredit, but you have to look at
it both in terms of history, butalso in terms of whether that
first lady engages with thepress or not, because the press,
as Mrs Johnson and Liz knew,were one way of making your
(38:49):
message and advertising yourmessage from a little place to a
much larger place.
And they were extremelyeffective at doing that.
Mrs.
Johnson made the staffing forLissa's office, her office, more
robust.
And they used the press, as Isaid, they invited the press on
(39:12):
the whistle stop campaign, herincredible campaign to go
through the south on civilrights.
In October of 1964, they wereoriginally inviting 50 and they
had over 200.
The train was so crowded.
It was incredible, and theyalerted press all along the way,
(39:33):
so the whistle stop campaign gothuge coverage.
They also created thesewonderful events in national
parks.
And you know, they had all theserafts, which where they fly the
press in and then for example, abig band go rafting and go
hiking.
One reporter took a red umbrellawith her while she was trying to
(39:56):
hike.
And Mrs Johnson actually helpedpull someone who had fallen off
a raft back onto a raft.
taking them along and carefullyplanning these events.
Help get them incredible pressand also she took press on trips
to advertise Lyndon Johnson'sUm, she was involved in a number
(40:21):
of great society programs likegoing to Appalachia.
They trekked up a hill to meet afamily, and so she said at the
end of her 1968, she talked tothe press and said that she
really wanted to thank them forgetting her message on
(40:42):
beautification, on, civilrights, on, the importance of,
you know, uh, the great societyprograms out to a much larger
group, and she felt of them asfriends.
And as Liz said, they reallywanted to use the press to get
from the society page to thefront page, which often they
(41:05):
were very effective at.
It's very interesting to look atMrs.
Johnson's press relations versusthose of President Johnson's.
Um, uh, and I'm very proud ofhim for this because he was
renowned for not havingparticularly effective press
relations, whereas she did, andshe actually at one point gave
(41:28):
him some pointers on how tohandle himself in a press
conference which is preserved ina wonderful Johnson tape that I
highly encourage people tolisten to if they haven't heard
it.
But she was masterful with Liz,it was a two part group in press
(41:49):
relations and in, indemonstrating how important that
function would be for futurefirst ladies should they choose
to use it.
And certainly, uh, if ourlisteners have not listened to
the Johnson tapes, immediatelygo do that.
It's an amazing history capturedon those tapes, uh, uh, very
(42:10):
serious things and very funnythings as well.
So, uh, another First Lady that.
I had real candor with press andwith the public about her
duties, about her life, wasBetty Ford.
So can you talk a bit, perhapsDiana, about what topics she
specifically brought into thelight and how she did that?
Well, there were two that Ithink really stand out when you
(42:31):
stop and think she only had 17months in office and she's one
of those first ladies who hasshown that that position can
transcend the time in the WhiteHouse because of everything she
did afterwards.
But a month after Gerald Fordcame into office 50 years ago,
she was diagnosed with breastcancer at the time.
(42:52):
You could not say breast.
on the air or write it in anewspaper.
No one used the word cancer.
If anyone had cancer, the wordwas not used in any news release
or whatever.
And she decided that If she hadbeen going along with her life,
everything was fine, and thenshe has a regular annual
checkup, and they discoveredthis lump that there must be
(43:14):
thousands of other women whoalso have undetected breast
cancer, and she felt like shehad this platform.
So she decided to make itpublic.
And she did.
So it was reported.
They used the word breastcancer.
They had photos of her sittingin bed talking to the president,
Bob Hope.
There were all these celebritiesin there chatting with her.
(43:37):
And there's that iconicphotograph because there were a
lot of concerns women had.
If they had a mastectomy, whatwas going to happen to muscles?
And so when she's leaving thehospital, she's throwing a
football to Gerald Ford.
Sort of honor his footballbackground and so she's showing
that she has this mobility andthis is right when she's leaving
the hospital like a week laterand she went on, you know, to do
(44:01):
her job.
And then the other thing thatshe really spent time on was the
ERA.
Pat Nixon had been a proponentof the ERA, and when the Nixons
left, Betty Ford took that on.
And this was at the point wherethey were trying to get state
legislatures to approve the ERA.
And so she was making calls tolegislators in key states that
(44:23):
hadn't approved it yet.
There were protests.
This is the one thing.
The cabinet wasn't happy withhow outspoken she was about this
issue.
It was also in 1975, theInternational Year of the Woman,
and she had this, there was thisexecutive order signed.
So she was very much out front,and this is during the period
when women's lib was a big dealand there was beginning to be
(44:45):
pushback.
So they were complaining thatshe was using taxpayer dollars
to influence public policy.
So she had her own phoneinstalled.
And there's a picture of her inour book at her desk.
With the don't tread on me flagon the front of the desk using
the telephone she paid for tocall state legislatures to try
to get the ERA passed.
(45:07):
Then she gave the 60 Minutesinterview where she talked about
everything, talked about family.
And it really made them looklike a family, that these were
Americans that had the samekinds of issues going on with
their kids that everybody elsedid.
And I think that was importantfor everybody to see the first
family.
(45:27):
Just like we said, Mary Lincolnhad been through tragedies that
other people had, that all firstfamilies are people, they're
families, they're human.
So those were three importantthings.
Then post White House, hercoming out about her addiction,
her prescription drug andalcohol addiction.
which Rosalynn Carter later didon health care, uh, with both of
(45:48):
them testifying in, in the1990s.
So her legacy with the HazeldenBetty Ford center is going to
live on for a long time, just asit already has.
So she's affected people'shealth in many direct ways Very
true.
Very true.
Now, Anita, I want to turn toyou next.
Uh, of course, you, you know,uh, Laura Bush much better than
(46:08):
I ever will, but I was sofortunate to be able to work
with her in Dallas.
As we created the George W.
Bush Library and Museum and wasfortunate during that several
times to meet First Lady BarbaraBush.
How would you characterize thesimilarities and differences in
how they approached their roleas First Lady Well, in the
similarities category, ofcourse, they both cared about
(46:29):
the issue of education andliteracy, and they really
devoted their lives to these twoinitiatives.
Barbara, I mean, Bush, uh,within just weeks of becoming
first lady.
And even while she was secondlady, you know, worked so
diligently on literacy issues,hosted so many events when she
(46:53):
was in the vice president'soffice, in the vice president's
residence.
And when she became first ladywithin weeks establishes the
Barbara Bush foundation forfamily literacy which is still
going to this day, raisingmillions of dollars and, and
supporting programs in all 50states.
(47:15):
In fact, next year, Juneau isher centennial, would be her
centennial.
And there are a lot of eventsthat will be planned around
promoting what Barbara Bush didas first lady with literacy,
Laura Bush, of course, served.
As a teacher in public schoolsand as a librarian care deeply
(47:35):
about these issues.
She too, within weeks ofbecoming first lady in 2001,
established the Laura BushFoundation for America's library
still exists.
Still raising money, stillgiving grants to schools in all
50 states to build theircollections.
In fact, when Nancy, Diana and Iwere in Arkansas at the Clinton
(47:58):
library in May to do an event onour book, we went to a local
high school, they're a charterhigh school and the librarian at
that high school got up veryemotional saying she was the
librarian at a Very smallelementary school in Little Rock
that got one of the first LauraBush grants and how much, and
(48:22):
she turned to the students thatwere in that auditorium and
said, if you went to thatschool, it's, it contributed to
you being here now.
I mean, again, you think aboutthe legacy and the things that
That live on that first ladiestried to do.
So that's where there aresimilarities.
They cared, about education.
(48:42):
They cared about literacy where,where things are different, of
course, where the times in whichthey serve naturally, but
Barbara Bush would never really,although she was married to one
of the world's greatestdiplomats and very much
supported all of George Bush'swork when he served at the UN,
of course, when he, he was envoyto China, she was there.
(49:04):
But she never would haveimagined herself doing the kind
of global work that Laura Bushdid during those years in the
White House.
And why was that?
Of course, because of the timesin which we live.
Post 9 11, there was a completepivot, as you know, Alan, from,
you know, The domestic focus,education reform, which Laura
(49:26):
Bush was involved in, to post 911, it was the war on terror.
And Laura Bush played a role inthat and spoke out on Afghan
women, traveled all over Africaand the president's global
health initiatives.
I remember talking to BarbaraBush about that she so admired
her daughter in law for all thatshe did internationally.
(49:50):
That it was just not somethingshe had to think about, but I
think all in all, Laura Bushlooked up to her mother in law
as someone that she learned agreat deal from.
I mean, Laura Bush was so luckyto have come into the White
House really better prepared.
Then almost anyone before her,uh, given the exposure and
(50:11):
experience, she had a visitingthere, staying there, knowing
the white house staff, theresident staff, knowing how
things got done.
Even so she would tell you,nothing prepares you for
stepping into that role.
But, the, the two of them, youknow, unique experience in our
history, obviously becauseAbigail Adams never lived to see
(50:33):
her son become president.
So was not really able to guideher daughter in law on being
first lady.
But I think at the end of theday, even though Laura Bush
never really liked politics,Barbara Bush did, they both
liked people and they use thatlove of, people in a way to
really connect on a veryauthentic level.
(50:56):
Really an incredible experiencegetting to know them even a
little bit and to recognize thatthat legacy they both have.
I don't know if you recall Anitathat day when the president gave
me the thumbs up to be directorand Laura was there, Mrs.
Bush was there.
He said, you're going to workwith both of us a lot, but
you'll like her better Iremember it in the, uh, in the
Oval Office, your meeting there,she was part of it, no doubt
(51:19):
about it.
And it tells you something, bothpresidents really in admired,
trusted and needed their wives.
This is, we talk about this inour book.
Some of how our first, the firstladies were successful is how
their husbands viewed theirrole.
And in this case, George H.
W.
(51:39):
Bush, definitely.
And George W.
Bush as well.
depended on their first ladies,depended on their spouses to
help them and gave them a wideberth.
Alan.
I just want to say springboarding off of the point that
Anita was making that we makethe point in our book that these
men were very, very luckybecause they married women who
(52:05):
Evolved the role and did so muchand they did not have to do
that.
And they'd done so many specialthings and left legacies in so
many different areas.
And so they were probably one ofthe best decisions most of these
precedents made were who theymarried.
(52:27):
Yeah, I think that's very, verytrue.
And as you talk about those,those contributions their roles
in the White House, you know,that role in the East wing of
the White House today, it'sbecome more and more formalized.
How many staff members todayapproximately work?
In that east wing and how dothey relate to those in the west
wing?
(52:47):
Well, the numbers have certainlygrown over time.
You know, we talked the firstformal position for a first lady
was Edith Roosevelt hiring thefirst social secretary.
And then of course it evolvedfrom, you heard Nancy talk about
Mrs.
Johnson hiring the first realprofessional, journalist to be
(53:09):
press secretary.
Jackie Kennedy before her had apress assistant.
Um, but, uh, and that was thefirst time there was really a
dedicated person for the firstlady.
But it certainly has grown sincethen.
And the pivotal moment foroffice of the first lady was
1978 under George W.
Bush.
Rosalynn Carter, who was reallya driving force behind expanding
(53:33):
the staff.
And, and the White HousePersonnel Authorization Act was
signed in 1978 in the Carteradministration, which really
formalized the office of FirstLady.
There was a budget assigned tothe office, but interestingly
enough, and still to this day,the staff of the First Lady are
(53:53):
considered Employees of thepresident assigned to the first
lady, because she's still not ina 50 role is still not an
official role.
There's, there was no statutoryrole for it.
Of course, over time, theintegrated relationship between
West wing and East wing is veryimportant.
(54:14):
And when the staffs coordinate,it's really best for both
principles and having workedthere, you know, three different
times, I've seen that evolution.
firsthand.
But I will say this, that what'sreally important about it for
both the first lady and herstaff is recognizing they're
(54:37):
there for the president.
They're there to support thegoals of the administration And
they find and identify the waysthat they can do that.
Ways that are authentic to them,the work that the first lady
engages in, of course, as shehas experience in and how that
supports the president and whenthe West wing staff recognizes
that, that the first lady andher staff is there to support
(55:01):
him, it works really well whenwe have examples in, in history
when the first lady is adistraction.
Or they get a lot of negativepress and it hurts the
president.
That is difficult.
It happened to Mrs.
Reagan.
It certainly happened to Mrs.
Clinton after healthcare reformfailed.
(55:26):
Uh, that was difficult.
But she made a pivot too.
And chose issues working onwomen's issues, global women's
issues that she continues towork on till this day, you know,
where she found a footing, and,you know, things work better
internally, but it's reallyimportant that the interaction
(55:46):
between West Wing and East Wingis coordinated.
You don't want the first lady tobe a distraction and you
certainly don't want her to beoff message.
But again, we all credit and inour book, we really do credit
Rosalynn Carter, whoincidentally, this is where her
greatest conflicts were with herhusband, he campaigned on
(56:06):
cutting the white house staff.
She's arguing to expand itbecause of the things she was
engaged in mental healthcommission and, you know, and
then globally how engaged shewas as well.
You know, she put in place astructure.
All of us who have worked theresince are very grateful for,
What about the roles andresponsibilities of this office?
(56:28):
Are going to change or stay thesame when we when we have our
first first gentleman, how willthat work?
Well, it, you know, we talkedabout this and as a nation in
2008, we came close when HillaryClinton was running for
president and, and her spousewould have been the first
gentleman.
He also would have been a formerpresident and we are big
believers the white house willadapt.
(56:51):
to the changes.
It has to.
It has shown the evolutionthrough history that it has
adapted to all of its occupants.
We know we have thisopportunity, right, or
possibility right in front of usright now with the announcement
that Kamala Harris is, isrunning as a democratic nominee.
Her husband has already served asecond gentleman.
(57:12):
He's given us a window.
Into how he would adapt to therole by first and foremost,
always saying in his interviews,his first job is to support his
wife, which is something thatfirst ladies say about the
president's, again, recognizingthey're the elected official,
but he also had carved out aninitiative that the white house,
(57:36):
that the president's team handedto him on antisemitism and had
been an advocate and a leadingvoice for that issue in the
Biden administration, he alsocontinued to work.
I mean, he left his law firm,but he continued to work as a
college professor at Georgetownuniversity in the law school.
Uh, the way Dr Biden continuedto work as a college professor.
(57:59):
So again, the position evolveswith each occupant and involves
as the country's evolving.
We'll have to call it somethingdifferent.
It may change the name of ourassociation as well.
That studies first ladies.
But I personally feel and Ithink Nancy and Diana would
agree with me that A lot of theresponsibilities will be the
(58:20):
same.
First and foremost, support thepresident, choose initiatives
you can engage on.
There is a ceremonial element tothe role, whether you're male or
female, that will come with itmay have to change, you know, a
little bit how the social officeworks.
But the White House is a veryadaptable place.
now you mentioned theassociation as we get ready to
(58:42):
close out Can you all tell me abit more about the mission and
the programs of flair as itsname for now?
At least what what does flair doand what is its mission?
Well, thank you, Alan.
Flair was formed the FirstLady's Association for Research
and Education in June of 2021,and it is an interdisciplinary
(59:04):
group of scholars, generalpublic, biographers,
journalists, historians,political scientists,
communication scholars.
a whole group of people who arevery interested in First Ladies.
And of course, in this electionyear, we have been very busy
(59:25):
giving interviews and articlesbecause First Ladies and their
role have been so key.
And so we ask that anyoneinterested go to flair net.
org.
We would encourage membership.
We have lifetime institutionalmembers, 11 of them, including
(59:49):
the White House HistoricalAssociation, the Gerald R.
Ford Presidential Foundation,the Bush Institute, the National
Archives and RecordsAdministration, just to, To name
a few, we do featuredpresentations, virtually.
There's one coming up at the endof this month on Dolly Madison.
(01:00:10):
So again, please go to You cango to flair dash net dot org
because those presentations areopen to the public.
We have social hours, whichreally allow important
networking that did not occurbefore.
Flare's establishment wherepeople can let people know what
(01:00:31):
they're working on and otherpeople can tap on their
knowledge.
We have speakers Bureau.
We have Coming up and exciting.
The first journal ever on firstladies should be coming online
soon.
It's an E journal.
And in this year we did ourfirst national conference in
(01:00:54):
April, uh, 2020 forward incelebration of Betty Ford and
her historic 1984 conference.
And we were co sponsors.
of luncheon with Susan Fordinvited, and Dr Biden was the
keynote speakers.
So it was very nice way to openin our first national
(01:01:17):
conference, and we certainlyplan on doing more.
So that gives you, I know we'rerunning low on time that gives
you a whirlwind, uh, flair.
Well, thank you Nancy, a reallyimportant work that flair is
doing Really great to have youall on american potus today.
(01:01:37):
Diana.
I need a nancy.
Thank you so much for joining meon the podcast.
Thank you.
We're delighted.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alan I want to thankeveryone also for listening.
Please visit AmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork there.
Thank you and join us on thenext American POTUS.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.