December 8, 2024 • 36 mins
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squadcaster-4c75_1_12-0 (00:05):
Welcome to American POTUS.
Thanks so much for joining us.
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
On this episode, I'm verypleased to be joined by Dr.
Marianne Holtzcom.
Marianne is an associateprofessor of history at Kennesaw
State University in Georgia,where she specializes in early
American history, the colonialand revolutionary eras, and she
has a special interest, as wewill discuss, And how history is
(00:27):
remembered in popular culture.
Now today I'm excited to talkwith Marianne about her terrific
book, Remembering John Adams,the second president in history,
memory, and popular culture.
Marianne, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (00:46):
Well, I love John Adams.
Uh, you and I discussed this abit before we started recording
that It was, uh, Scott Bruhn'sfavorite president, our former
co host on American Potus, sohe'll be very excited about my
talking with you today.
So thanks so much.
So let me start with this.
Let's start with the discussionof some of the terminology you
(01:07):
use.
What's the difference betweenhistory and historical memory
and what is meant by the termusable past
Well, as I see it, history iswhat happened.
The facts that we know happened.
historical memory is how weremember those facts.
(01:29):
So, you know, for example, we dothis with our families.
We all came off of Thanksgiving.
Um, maybe some of us weresitting around the table and
somebody remembered somethingthat happened at a previous
Thanksgiving.
But then someone would chime inand say, well, that's not how I
remember it at all., or maybe athird person would chime in and
say, I don't remember that everhappening.
(01:51):
and so that's what historicalmemory is., what we remember and
how we remember it.
It doesn't change the fact thatsomething happened, but it,
changes how we view thatparticular event.
And, as far as the usable pastis concerned, that is a term
(02:12):
that was coined way back in 1918by a literary.
Historian who was writing aboutthe void that American writers
had to deal with when theylooked at their own past, and he
recommended that it was possibleto create a past, what he called
(02:32):
a usable past, a past thatwriters could look to and pick
and choose what They sawrelevant about that past, and so
one of my manuscript readerssuggested that I look at this
concept.
And of course, the minute theconcept came out 1918 into the
(02:54):
1920s, historians latched on tothis.
And said, yes, this is, this ishow we remember our past.
We, we take from it what we canuse and we leave the rest.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024 (03:09):
I see well fascinating concepts
and certainly Uh, you can seethat, develop in your study of
how Adams has been portrayed.
Let's jump into Mr.
Adams, shall we?
The, the first biographers werehis son and grandson, John
Quincy and Charles FrancisAdams, both famous in their own
(03:29):
right.
So.
How did they approach thesubject of their very famous
father and grandfather?
If you read those biographiesthey are, written in a 19th
century style.
And so there's, there's a lot tokind of wade through.
So they will tell a story abouttheir father slash grandfather,
and then they'll go into thecontext of what was happening.
(03:51):
But the other thing that reallycomes out, in that particular
biography was, the idea thatthis son and later his son
wanted to defend John Adams.
They wanted to bring him to theforefront in a way that they
didn't think he had beenappreciated.
(04:12):
Um, and so there is a certainamount of, apology going on
there, but, there's also a driveto point to those really
important things that he did andthe noble things that he did, so
that people would see a JohnAdams who would defend the
(04:33):
British soldiers at the BostonMassacre, or who was
instrumental in getting theDeclaration of Independence
approved.
Those were the kinds of thingsthat they wanted to focus on.
And since they were the onlyones that had access to his
papers, they could pick andchoose.
What they decided to writeabout, so it's very much a
(04:54):
defense of the man.
I think in a lot of respects.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-20 (04:59):
Was it protecting that legacy?
Was that what was behind Thepapers were not available for a
long time.
What was behind that?
That's correct.
It's hard to say exactly whatwas going on there.
The late curator at the AdamsNational Historical Park
believes that the family wasbeing very protective of that
legacy.
(05:20):
And so.
When Charles Francis Adamsactually produces, John Adams
works, he picks and choosesagain what he puts in there and
other things he leaves out.
So, having those papers closedaway from scholars for so very
long meant that.
(05:42):
Oftentimes, John Adams storywasn't told.
People said, well, if we can'thave access to the papers, we
can't tell his story.
And so it sort of led to hisneglect.
Even though they were trying toprotect that legacy, they also
almost dismissed it by keepingthose papers closed and, and
(06:04):
away from scholars.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (06:07):
Yeah, as a former archivist, still
love archives, we always saidthey were the raw material of
history, and if you don't haveaccess to them, it's Very
difficult to tell those stories,that's for sure.
Now, you mentioned early on abook I admittedly have not read
Peter Shaw's book, the thecharacter of John Adams.
So how did he analyze thepresident and did you find that
(06:28):
interpretation?
Persuasive
It's funny that you picked outthat book in particular.
I first read that book when Iwas in college, and I had just
begun studying John Adams andhad a soft spot for him.
And my initial reaction to thatbook was anger.
I really, I didn't like it.
(06:50):
And when I re read it to writethis book, I can't quite figure
out why I reacted that wayexcept that um, Peter Shaw was
putting John Adams on the couch.
He, he wanted to get inside hisand figure out why he did what
he did, why he reacted the wayhe did.
(07:12):
So, it's what one critic calledpsycho history.
And what I like about Peter Shawrevisiting that book is that he
spent a good deal of timetalking about how John Adams
didn't care about being popular,but when he would say he didn't
(07:35):
care about being popular, he wasworking toward being unpopular.
I mean, everything that he didseemed to point him in a
direction of saying, well, I'mwho I am and you can accept me
as I am.
But it drove people to notreally like him very well.
Um, and the other thing thatPeter Shaw did that I thought
(07:59):
was very interesting and verypersuasive since you asked that
question was a comparisonbetween John Adams and Benjamin
Franklin.
Because a lot of people forgetthat, um, They were both New
Englanders.
Uh, Ben Franklin was raised inBoston before he ran away to
Philadelphia.
(08:19):
But these two men came out ofthis Puritan tradition in New
England with very differentinsights into it and with very
different baggage from it.
And so Peter Shaw points at thatand says, this, this tells you a
lot about who these guys were.
were and how they reacted to theworld.
(08:41):
Benjamin Franklin's very laidback.
John Adams tends to beconfrontational unless he
doesn't want to be.
He will isolate.
Um, and, and Peter Shaw spent agood deal of time talking about
the diplomacy together.
Because that was the momentwhere they really butted heads.
So it's, it's an interestingstudy, but if you're having a
(09:06):
love affair with John Adams, itmay not be the place to start.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04 (09:09):
Right.
I'll be ready.
I will, I will try to read it,but I will be fully prepared
now.
Thanks to you for that.
So, so one, one book I haveread, uh, and we had this fellow
on American POTUS, a greathistorian, Joseph Ellis, spoke
with us about his book,Passionate Legacy, the character
and legacy of John Adams.
So can you remind us how Josephinterpreted Adams and again,
(09:32):
perhaps your thoughts on thatinterpretation
Well, in the interest of fulldisclosure, I love that book.
It was another one that I cameacross as I was reading about
John Adams and what delighted meabout what Joseph Ellis did was
that he was looking at Adams inhis older years.
(09:52):
And what emerges from that bookare two things really that I
think are important.
One is the early years of JohnAdams retirement, when he's
feeling bitter, he's feelingneglected, And he gets defensive
about it, to his detriment.
But then somewhere around 1812or so, he begins to become
(10:18):
mellower, I guess?
I'm not sure that's a word wecan use when we talk about John
Adams, but he starts to feelmore comfortable with what he's
done and what he's contributed,and Joseph Ellis brings that
out.
So what you see in his book isthe doting grandfather.
(10:38):
The forgiving friend, the manwho's willing to be the hero in
a friendship and step forward.
I mean, he initiated thecommunication with Thomas
Jefferson after all those years.
He tried to mend hisrelationship with Mercy O.
S.
Warren, in those years.
(11:00):
And so you see a warmth in himthat doesn't normally come out.
And that's what I really lovedabout that book.
Um, the other thing I would sayis that, Ellis does a wonderful
job near the end of the booktalking about how wonderful it
would be to have two monuments,one to Jefferson, which we
(11:20):
already have, and one to Adams.
That the shadows that they cast,would, would compete with one
another there on the Potomac.
I love that idea, and so I'm abig fan of Joseph Ellis, and I,
I just adore that book.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-202 (11:34):
As do I.
Now Perhaps a year or so ago,I've, I've lost track of time
and space here lately, but we'vespoken American Pot with, with
Arrb Bernstein, about his book,the Education of John Adams.
Does that book fall within whatyou call.
The revised John Adamsrevisionism.
I've been thinking about thatquestion ever since you sent it
to me, and looking at the bookagain, I, I think.
(11:57):
That particular book I wouldplace in both categories.
The first one where we arereassessing and reappreciating
John Adams.
And the second one we weresaying, well, let's not go too
far with this.
I think Bernstein did someinteresting things looking again
at John Adams diplomacy and howhe was affected by his time in
(12:21):
Europe.
I found fascinating thecomparison between Adams this
time and Jefferson.
In terms of what they broughtback from Europe, so I thought
that was a wonderful take onthis and Bernstein also mentions
to and he's right about thisthat when you look at
biographies of John Adams, youeither get his political and
(12:44):
philosophical side or you gethis personal side.
it's very rarely where you seethe two merge.
And I think Bernstein tried todo that and he, he was
successful on a lot of levelsthere.
But the example of the sort ofrevised revisionism, um, would
(13:05):
be Bernstein pointing out thatJohn Adams was not the advocate
for anti slavery that a lot ofscholars have pointed him, have
said that he was.
And that is a fair assessment.
John Adams take on slavery wasambiguous at best.
And we, we need to sort of backoff from this idea that he was
(13:29):
somehow an abolitionist andthat, you know, he is.
a founder who didn't own slaves.
And I think that it's importantto point that out.
He's one of two of the first sixpresidents who didn't own
slaves.
His other, of course, being, theother being John Quincy Adams.
But to call him an abolitionist,to say, you know, he was anti
(13:51):
slavery, that, that's going abit far.
And Bernstein points this outrightly so.
And so that's why I would puthim kind of in both of these
categories.
But I, I appreciate his, histake on, well, I like the title
of the book, for example, um,and, the, the changing political
thought of John Adams and, andthe way this comes out in his
(14:14):
writings.
So interesting.
You speak about otherhistorians, but let's skip now
to a non historian field.
The poet Ezra Pound wrote aboutAdams.
Why was he interested in JohnAdams, and what was he trying to
say about him in his poetry
Ah, Ezra Pound, he, he's aninteresting character and, I
(14:36):
knew I had to deal with him.
I had some help from an Englishprofessor, and I'm eternally
grateful to him for reading overthis section of the book,
because I wasn't sure where Iwas going with this, but Ezra
Pound, even in his collegeyears, became very interested in
the American Revolution.
And the early national period,and he had some influential
(14:59):
professors, who had a very,whiggish attitude toward our
history.
In other words, a progressivehistory that, that we started
out good and we just got better.
And Ezra Pound became fascinatedwith the founding era at that
point, but then in the late 20sand 30s, he became interested in
(15:23):
Mussolini and began makingcomparisons between Thomas
Jefferson and Mussolini.
Which, yeah, it, it shockspeople.
Um, and so Ezra Pound startedthinking about these founders
again, and what attracted him toJohn Adams is really a couple of
things.
He liked John Adams precision inlanguage.
(15:46):
Language was always important toEzra Pound, and he liked that
Adams was so precise in thewords that he chose.
So that was one thing thatattracted him.
But the other thing was thatEzra Pound believed in balance
in government, and so did JohnAdams.
And so it was almost, in thatsense, a match made in heaven
(16:09):
for Ezra Pound to write thispart of his cantos dedicated to
John Adams and the things thatJohn Adams did.
Did and what he wrote.
Um, in that vein, Ezra Poundalso connected John Adams with
ideas from Confucianism.
(16:33):
The idea of balance comes out ofConfucianism.
And so he's, he's tying all ofthese things together, but it
all surrounds balance ingovernment.
So I think that's whatfascinated Ezra Pound in the
end.
So we'll turn from Ezra Pound to
Irving Stone.
I didn't realize Stone hadpublished a book that's called,
Those Who Love, a biographicalnovel of Abigail and John Adams
(16:56):
he did a good deal of researchas he tells a story about four
and a half years worth ofresearch.
But what he liked to do, in hisstories is tell stories of
people who we, we know, butmaybe we don't know as well as,
as we should.
But he was also interested inthe female characters in some of
(17:19):
these people's lives.
And so, Those Who Love is toldfrom Abigail's perspective.
And, when we first meet JohnAdams, he is in her home.
And it's, it's a delightfulscene because he's got two books
in each hand and he's smellingthem.
And she catches him doing thisand, and thinks not, oh, I'm
(17:43):
madly in love, she thinks, whatan odd little man.
Um, and, but he turns around andexplains to her that, you know,
you can tell the paper, you cantell where the paper came from.
And so, the story goes fromthere, and he is very careful
to, to use the sources that theyprovide, their letters in
(18:06):
particular.
He stops the story, in 1801,perhaps because that's when they
basically stopped writing toeach other, they were together
for the rest of their lives.
Um, but he, He tells this storywith a sense that Abigail knew
(18:27):
what she was getting into withthis guy, and that she loved his
intellect.
He wished he was a little lessharsh sometimes.
But it's a wonderful portrait oftheir marriage.
And, apparently it caught theattention of, of a Hollywood
(18:47):
producer who thought aboutmaking a film, uh, starring
Peter O'Toole and, JulianneCruz.
Of all people.
The film never, never came tofruition.
And, as I say in the book, Iwonder if the producer ever saw
a picture of John Adams becausePeter was quite tall and like,
(19:09):
um, I'm not sure it would haveworked, but, it was that good
that that some people inHollywood said this should be a
movie.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-20 (19:17):
Now to one of my favorites, the
musical 1776 with the greatWilliam Daniels as John Adams.
You talk a lot about that.
I know you're a fan as well.
How did that musical and thesubsequent film come to be
Oh yes.
The story of that musical is, isfascinating to me.
It was conceived by a man namedSherman Edwards.
(19:37):
Um, who was a songwriter, but hehad, majored in history in
college, I think that he taughthigh school history for a time,
and he was always interested inthe American Revolution.
And he got this idea around1967, 68, um, to write a
musical.
And he had, basically he knewtwo things about it, that it was
(20:00):
going to be about theDeclaration of Independence, and
he had a title, 1776.
So he writes the script himselfbased upon, the Continental
Congress transcripts and diariesand other entries.
And he can't let the idea go.
And he tells the story at onepoint that he set out to go to
(20:21):
his studio in New York City andended up in Philadelphia.
And he died.
Doesn't remember how he gotthere.
It was a really scary moment forhim, but he's sitting in front
of Independence Hall saying, Howdid I get here?
And it was kind of a sign forhim, I think, that he needed to
pursue this idea.
So, He had a hard time finding aproducer because, um, as he
(20:46):
stated it, patriotism tended tobe box office poison.
But he finally found StuartOstrow, who agreed to do it.
And Stuart Ostrow brought in anew book writer, Peter Stone,
who added humor to it, who, whotook it from being a history
textbook to being a musical.
(21:07):
And that's when William Danielswas willing to, to jump on
board.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2 (21:10):
This is really a phenomenal musical
and film.
You say in the book, I think,very accurately that for those
of us who love it and have seenit multiple times, it does
affect how we see him now.
That portrayal has had an effecton how he's seen by many.
And do you think that's in apositive way, in a negative way,
or are we missing history bydoing that, or is it helping us
(21:32):
discover Adams
Um, for me personally, it was apositive thing, because until
1776, I knew the basics aboutJohn Adams, but I feel like I
really met him when I first sawthe film version of 1776,
because all of a sudden, I wasdrawn into the humanity of who
(21:54):
he was.
And you see that throughout themusical and you see the running
joke, the obnoxious and dislikedline.
But you also see at the end ofthe show, when he's having one
of his moments with Abigail,that that really kind of hurt
him.
Um, and Daniels plays this justbrilliantly.
(22:15):
I love William Daniels.
That was the other thing thathappened when I saw that movie,
a fascination with John Adamsand a fascination with William
Daniels.
I'm still a huge fan.
I sent him a copy of the book,by the way.
I never heard from him, but, youknow, I'm hoping that maybe
someday.
But, uh, if you're listening,William Daniels.
(22:37):
But you're right that it hasaffected how we remember him.
In that that trope of obnoxiousand disliked that's carried
throughout that musical.
You also see that a bit in laterportrayals of him, so that it
overshadows some other aspectsof his personality.
(23:00):
So it did have a giganticeffect, and as far as the film
is concerned, I think it's beenrediscovered over the years
because TMC shows it every yearon the 4th of July.
It's been restored.
Because parts of it were, weretaken out, apparently at the
(23:21):
request of President RichardNixon, I understand.
And it's, it's beautifully,beautifully restored.
So if you ever get to see thedirector's cut with, with all of
the restored material, I highlyrecommend that.
I'll have to do that.
I will say my wife had not seenthis.
She was a fan of Hamilton.
(23:42):
I said, well, if you've seenHamilton, we're going to, we're
going to watch 1776 now andwatch it a few times.
So it's a favorite of hers aswell.
Now, you know, one I haven'tseen is the mini series, Adam's
Chronicles produced by PBSduring the bicentennial.
How did it portray him?
And was it equivalent to what wesaw in 1776 or was it some way
(24:03):
different?
Um, it's very different,actually.
The writers of the AddamsChronicles had a very, very
strict script in that they wereasked by the Addams family not
to stray from the Addams Papers.
(24:25):
And so nothing in that script isimagined.
It's all coming from the Adamspapers.
John Adams himself was played byan actor named George Grizzard.
Who I knew in later years, hedid some episodes of Murder, She
Wrote.
I mean, he was a great actor.
Great character actor andBroadway actor.
And, the portrayal there isshowing John Adams from his
(24:50):
early years as a lawyer and hiscourtship with Abigail, which is
something that we don't see inother portrayals, um, through
his death.
And the theme that comes up alot there is John Adams having
to reign in his vanity.
(25:11):
One of the lines that comes outa lot in that show is down
vanity, down vanity.
So it, in a way, it's not,really an over the top portrayal
of John Adams because of thescript.
restrictions that they had.
But George Grizzard evenmentioned that, that he would
(25:35):
talk about the script with, withpeople.
And, and one of the things thathappens with a lot of the actors
who play John Adams is that theydevelop this, this, love for
him.
They develop even aprotectiveness of him.
And that happened with GeorgeGrizzard as well.
So, it's interesting and it, ittakes the Adams family through
(25:58):
all four generations of thepeople that we know.
And interestingly enough,William Daniels plays John
Quincy Adams in the AdamsChronicles.
So, um, he, yeah, he gets aroundin the Addams family.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (26:14):
Well, that's another thing I will put
on my list of things to do, iswatch the Adam's Chronicles.
Now, I'm going to go back tohistorians now, because we
can't, leave our discussionwithout talking about David
McCullough's, Pulitzer Prizewinning biography, John Adams,
uh, as I said to you before,it's one of those books.
I didn't want it to end, youknow, it's just so well done.
Uh, what are your thoughts onthat portrayal?
(26:36):
And, and also, uh, just to kindof segue into the next thing,
HBO kind of adapted that, thatbook into a mini series.
What were your thoughts on thatmini series with Paul Giamatti
playing John Adams
i love David McCullough's Hewrites in a style that brings
you in immediately.
(26:57):
And one of the things I did withthe introduction of my book was
try to mimic that a little bit.
When I started the introduction,I said, how would David
McCullough write this?
So I was, I was trying tochannel him a little bit.
But I don't know whether Isucceeded or not, but I was
trying, um, what McCullough did,I think with John Adams is, is
(27:20):
again, bring him to theforefront in a way that no other
author has managed to do.
It was a New York Timesbestseller and no other
biography that I know of, JohnAdams has ever achieved that.
But as some people pointed out,John Adams loses some of his
(27:41):
crusty edge in DavidMcCullough's biography.
I'm not sure that's completelyfair, but I do see their point
because McCullough was trying totell the story of a man that he
had recently come to appreciatein a new way.
And, and so, I think focusingon, the warmer side of John
(28:04):
Adams was a way that.
McCulloch approached that and Iappreciated that.
He also told some stories thatsegwaying into the miniseries
didn't make it into theminiseries for reasons that I
don't quite understand.
And one of the things thatMcCulloch emphasized, um, was
(28:28):
John Adams capacity forfriendship.
Which is something that's oftenmissed in these portrayals.
And McCulloch tells the story ofJohn Adams and Jonathan Sewell,
one of his oldest, dearestfriends, and they had to part
ways because of the revolution.
It was heartbreaking for both ofthem.
(28:50):
McCulloch tells the story, itdoesn't show up in the
miniseries.
Sewell is there, but if youdon't know who he is, you have
no idea that there's, there'sthis bond there.
And I think they missed anopportunity with that.
So I think in respects, whilethe script was, true to the
(29:11):
McCullough biography, so thatthe miniseries wouldn't be 20
hours long, they had to makesome choices.
They had to conflate somethings, and that's
understandable.
But what got left out a littlebit, I think, was the nuance in
John Adams.
Now, having said that, I thinkPaul Giamatti's portrayal is
(29:32):
brilliant.
Um, to go from 1770 to 1826 theway he did.
He does a wonderful job.
But even in recent years whenPaul Giamatti talks about that
role, I'm not sure he completelyunderstood who John Adams was.
Um, because he was working froma script.
(29:55):
And he saw John Adams as acharacter in a movie.
That's how he approached it.
As a matter of fact, evenWilliam Daniels didn't do any
outside research.
He didn't read anything outside,of the script until after he'd
done the show, and peoplestarted sending him biographies
of John Adams.
So, this is something that, it'sa common theme for actors.
(30:19):
They want to go with what thescript gives them.
Giamatti did a good jobcapturing some aspects of John
Adams, but I think other thingswere, were missing there.
Again, the warmth.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024 (30:31):
I hate to admit it's been a while
since I've been to the Adams,National Historical Park in
Quincy.
Can, you tell our listenersperhaps if they haven't been and
remind me how he's rememberedthere, how the Park Service
interprets the story?
The Park Service has a reallyinteresting history and the
Adams sites are scattered aroundQuincy.
(30:51):
Quincy itself has become a realadvocate for making sure that
the Adams legacy is remembered.
They, they have a new HancockAdams common.
They are proposing an AdamsPresidential Center, which
should be built in Quincy.
Um, but the Park Service itselfstarted out with just the old
(31:15):
house or Peacefield, which wasdonated to the Park Service in
1946.
And then slowly but surely thePark Service got some of the
other sites.
They got the birthplaces in1978, and then finally in 1980,
United First Parish Church,where John Adams and Abigail are
(31:37):
buried, became part of the ParkService, essentially in name
only.
But, but it, it took that kindof time to get all of these
parts together.
And when you go to do the fullfledged tour, at Adams, you
start out in the visitor center,you see a nice film, which is
(31:57):
relatively new, uh, because PaulGiamatti and Laura Linney
provide the voices of John andAbigail in it.
You know that it's fairlyrecent.
And then you visit thebirthplaces where they tell the
story of, John Adams childhood.
And then, John and Abigail'searly marriage.
Then you.
(32:19):
You head off to Peacefield whereyou hear the story of the rest
of the family, essentially.
And, uh, the interpreters atAdams are really wonderful.
They're dedicated people andthey love the Adams family.
They are passionate aboutcontinuing to protect that
(32:40):
legacy and, I had the privilegeand the pleasure of talking to
Kelly Cobble, who was theircurator until she died suddenly.
Um, but she was wonderful andher enthusiasm for John Adams in
particular, just just flew outof her.
(33:01):
She, she loved what she did andshe loved preserving their
legacy.
Um, and, but she also said, youknow, we're entering a new age
here.
So it will be interesting to seehow the interpretations change
as we're reassessing ourfounders.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (33:18):
Well, I, uh, I will be up there
hopefully again soon.
And I'll certainly report toyou.
You do The same as that, uh,interpretation is, changed over
the next few years.
So, so Marianne, greatconversation.
What's next for you?
What are you working on rightnow?
Well, I have started someresearch on a study of museums
(33:39):
dedicated to the AmericanRevolution and how they are
interpreting that story.
And I'm looking at three veryspecific areas.
Boston, Philadelphia, andYorktown, Virginia.
And the reason I chose thosethree is because in all three of
those areas you have the ParkService on the one hand,
preserving sites, and And on theother hand, you have either
(34:03):
state funded or privately fundedmuseums that have started
popping up that are also tellingthese stories.
And I'm interested in howthey're cooperating, how they're
clashing at times, who's doingwhat, um, and why., there are a
lot of moving parts, so it's,it's, it's interesting.
(34:23):
research I've just begun.
It will take me a while toactually get a book out of it,
but, but that's what I've beenworking on.
And I'm also not quite done withJohn Adams.
There's something that's, hedoes that, you know, he, um, I'm
really interested as, as we moveinto remembering the revolution
(34:46):
at two 50, really interested inlooking at how he remembered it,
In his later years, Joseph Ellistalks a good deal about this,
and I'm trying to decide ifJoseph Ellis has done enough, or
if there's an article in therewhere I can look at the meaning
of the revolution to John Adams,and how that might differ from,
(35:08):
the way people think about it.
Who didn't live through it wereinterpreting it even before he
died.
Because they were flying lettersto him asking him, you know,
what happened and how do youremember this?
And and so the the primarysources are definitely there and
I'm interested in Looking atthat as well.
(35:29):
So a lot going on.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-202 (35:30):
Of course, as you proceed with
that, let us know.
And I, I must say your study ofmuseums and the revolution
really reminds me a lot of thepresidents as well.
You know, the presidentiallibraries where I worked for
many years, part of the federalgovernment, and then you have
state involvement, you haveprivate groups, nonprofits, and
so forth, really interesting tolook at those different
interpretations.
So looking forward to all that.
And I'm glad to see John Adamshas not let go of you.
(35:52):
That's terrific.
I really appreciate, what afantastic discussion.
I want to thank you and thankeveryone for listening and for
your support of American POTUS.
You know, we are dedicated toeducation and a thoughtful civil
discussion of our history.
So I also want to say, pleasetake a moment to check out the
new podcast, American FLOTUS,all about the first ladies.
(36:15):
That we're producing inpartnership with the First
Ladies Association for Researchand Education.
You can find episodes ofAmerican
flotus@americanpotus.org, atflair net.org, or on your
favorite podcast platform.
So thanks everyone very much,and I'll see you next time on
American potus.
Welcome to American POTUS.
Thanks so much for joining us.
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
On this episode, I'm verypleased to be joined by Dr.
Marianne Holtzcom.
Marianne is an associateprofessor of history at Kennesaw
State University in Georgia,where she specializes in early
American history, the colonialand revolutionary eras, and she
has a special interest, as wewill discuss, And how history is
(00:27):
remembered in popular culture.
Now today I'm excited to talkwith Marianne about her terrific
book, Remembering John Adams,the second president in history,
memory, and popular culture.
Marianne, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (00:46):
Well, I love John Adams.
Uh, you and I discussed this abit before we started recording
that It was, uh, Scott Bruhn'sfavorite president, our former
co host on American Potus, sohe'll be very excited about my
talking with you today.
So thanks so much.
So let me start with this.
Let's start with the discussionof some of the terminology you
(01:07):
use.
What's the difference betweenhistory and historical memory
and what is meant by the termusable past
Well, as I see it, history iswhat happened.
The facts that we know happened.
historical memory is how weremember those facts.
(01:29):
So, you know, for example, we dothis with our families.
We all came off of Thanksgiving.
Um, maybe some of us weresitting around the table and
somebody remembered somethingthat happened at a previous
Thanksgiving.
But then someone would chime inand say, well, that's not how I
remember it at all., or maybe athird person would chime in and
say, I don't remember that everhappening.
(01:51):
and so that's what historicalmemory is., what we remember and
how we remember it.
It doesn't change the fact thatsomething happened, but it,
changes how we view thatparticular event.
And, as far as the usable pastis concerned, that is a term
(02:12):
that was coined way back in 1918by a literary.
Historian who was writing aboutthe void that American writers
had to deal with when theylooked at their own past, and he
recommended that it was possibleto create a past, what he called
(02:32):
a usable past, a past thatwriters could look to and pick
and choose what They sawrelevant about that past, and so
one of my manuscript readerssuggested that I look at this
concept.
And of course, the minute theconcept came out 1918 into the
(02:54):
1920s, historians latched on tothis.
And said, yes, this is, this ishow we remember our past.
We, we take from it what we canuse and we leave the rest.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024 (03:09):
I see well fascinating concepts
and certainly Uh, you can seethat, develop in your study of
how Adams has been portrayed.
Let's jump into Mr.
Adams, shall we?
The, the first biographers werehis son and grandson, John
Quincy and Charles FrancisAdams, both famous in their own
(03:29):
right.
So.
How did they approach thesubject of their very famous
father and grandfather?
If you read those biographiesthey are, written in a 19th
century style.
And so there's, there's a lot tokind of wade through.
So they will tell a story abouttheir father slash grandfather,
and then they'll go into thecontext of what was happening.
(03:51):
But the other thing that reallycomes out, in that particular
biography was, the idea thatthis son and later his son
wanted to defend John Adams.
They wanted to bring him to theforefront in a way that they
didn't think he had beenappreciated.
(04:12):
Um, and so there is a certainamount of, apology going on
there, but, there's also a driveto point to those really
important things that he did andthe noble things that he did, so
that people would see a JohnAdams who would defend the
(04:33):
British soldiers at the BostonMassacre, or who was
instrumental in getting theDeclaration of Independence
approved.
Those were the kinds of thingsthat they wanted to focus on.
And since they were the onlyones that had access to his
papers, they could pick andchoose.
What they decided to writeabout, so it's very much a
(04:54):
defense of the man.
I think in a lot of respects.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-20 (04:59):
Was it protecting that legacy?
Was that what was behind Thepapers were not available for a
long time.
What was behind that?
That's correct.
It's hard to say exactly whatwas going on there.
The late curator at the AdamsNational Historical Park
believes that the family wasbeing very protective of that
legacy.
(05:20):
And so.
When Charles Francis Adamsactually produces, John Adams
works, he picks and choosesagain what he puts in there and
other things he leaves out.
So, having those papers closedaway from scholars for so very
long meant that.
(05:42):
Oftentimes, John Adams storywasn't told.
People said, well, if we can'thave access to the papers, we
can't tell his story.
And so it sort of led to hisneglect.
Even though they were trying toprotect that legacy, they also
almost dismissed it by keepingthose papers closed and, and
(06:04):
away from scholars.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (06:07):
Yeah, as a former archivist, still
love archives, we always saidthey were the raw material of
history, and if you don't haveaccess to them, it's Very
difficult to tell those stories,that's for sure.
Now, you mentioned early on abook I admittedly have not read
Peter Shaw's book, the thecharacter of John Adams.
So how did he analyze thepresident and did you find that
(06:28):
interpretation?
Persuasive
It's funny that you picked outthat book in particular.
I first read that book when Iwas in college, and I had just
begun studying John Adams andhad a soft spot for him.
And my initial reaction to thatbook was anger.
I really, I didn't like it.
(06:50):
And when I re read it to writethis book, I can't quite figure
out why I reacted that wayexcept that um, Peter Shaw was
putting John Adams on the couch.
He, he wanted to get inside hisand figure out why he did what
he did, why he reacted the wayhe did.
(07:12):
So, it's what one critic calledpsycho history.
And what I like about Peter Shawrevisiting that book is that he
spent a good deal of timetalking about how John Adams
didn't care about being popular,but when he would say he didn't
(07:35):
care about being popular, he wasworking toward being unpopular.
I mean, everything that he didseemed to point him in a
direction of saying, well, I'mwho I am and you can accept me
as I am.
But it drove people to notreally like him very well.
Um, and the other thing thatPeter Shaw did that I thought
(07:59):
was very interesting and verypersuasive since you asked that
question was a comparisonbetween John Adams and Benjamin
Franklin.
Because a lot of people forgetthat, um, They were both New
Englanders.
Uh, Ben Franklin was raised inBoston before he ran away to
Philadelphia.
(08:19):
But these two men came out ofthis Puritan tradition in New
England with very differentinsights into it and with very
different baggage from it.
And so Peter Shaw points at thatand says, this, this tells you a
lot about who these guys were.
were and how they reacted to theworld.
(08:41):
Benjamin Franklin's very laidback.
John Adams tends to beconfrontational unless he
doesn't want to be.
He will isolate.
Um, and, and Peter Shaw spent agood deal of time talking about
the diplomacy together.
Because that was the momentwhere they really butted heads.
So it's, it's an interestingstudy, but if you're having a
(09:06):
love affair with John Adams, itmay not be the place to start.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04 (09:09):
Right.
I'll be ready.
I will, I will try to read it,but I will be fully prepared
now.
Thanks to you for that.
So, so one, one book I haveread, uh, and we had this fellow
on American POTUS, a greathistorian, Joseph Ellis, spoke
with us about his book,Passionate Legacy, the character
and legacy of John Adams.
So can you remind us how Josephinterpreted Adams and again,
(09:32):
perhaps your thoughts on thatinterpretation
Well, in the interest of fulldisclosure, I love that book.
It was another one that I cameacross as I was reading about
John Adams and what delighted meabout what Joseph Ellis did was
that he was looking at Adams inhis older years.
(09:52):
And what emerges from that bookare two things really that I
think are important.
One is the early years of JohnAdams retirement, when he's
feeling bitter, he's feelingneglected, And he gets defensive
about it, to his detriment.
But then somewhere around 1812or so, he begins to become
(10:18):
mellower, I guess?
I'm not sure that's a word wecan use when we talk about John
Adams, but he starts to feelmore comfortable with what he's
done and what he's contributed,and Joseph Ellis brings that
out.
So what you see in his book isthe doting grandfather.
(10:38):
The forgiving friend, the manwho's willing to be the hero in
a friendship and step forward.
I mean, he initiated thecommunication with Thomas
Jefferson after all those years.
He tried to mend hisrelationship with Mercy O.
S.
Warren, in those years.
(11:00):
And so you see a warmth in himthat doesn't normally come out.
And that's what I really lovedabout that book.
Um, the other thing I would sayis that, Ellis does a wonderful
job near the end of the booktalking about how wonderful it
would be to have two monuments,one to Jefferson, which we
(11:20):
already have, and one to Adams.
That the shadows that they cast,would, would compete with one
another there on the Potomac.
I love that idea, and so I'm abig fan of Joseph Ellis, and I,
I just adore that book.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-202 (11:34):
As do I.
Now Perhaps a year or so ago,I've, I've lost track of time
and space here lately, but we'vespoken American Pot with, with
Arrb Bernstein, about his book,the Education of John Adams.
Does that book fall within whatyou call.
The revised John Adamsrevisionism.
I've been thinking about thatquestion ever since you sent it
to me, and looking at the bookagain, I, I think.
(11:57):
That particular book I wouldplace in both categories.
The first one where we arereassessing and reappreciating
John Adams.
And the second one we weresaying, well, let's not go too
far with this.
I think Bernstein did someinteresting things looking again
at John Adams diplomacy and howhe was affected by his time in
(12:21):
Europe.
I found fascinating thecomparison between Adams this
time and Jefferson.
In terms of what they broughtback from Europe, so I thought
that was a wonderful take onthis and Bernstein also mentions
to and he's right about thisthat when you look at
biographies of John Adams, youeither get his political and
(12:44):
philosophical side or you gethis personal side.
it's very rarely where you seethe two merge.
And I think Bernstein tried todo that and he, he was
successful on a lot of levelsthere.
But the example of the sort ofrevised revisionism, um, would
(13:05):
be Bernstein pointing out thatJohn Adams was not the advocate
for anti slavery that a lot ofscholars have pointed him, have
said that he was.
And that is a fair assessment.
John Adams take on slavery wasambiguous at best.
And we, we need to sort of backoff from this idea that he was
(13:29):
somehow an abolitionist andthat, you know, he is.
a founder who didn't own slaves.
And I think that it's importantto point that out.
He's one of two of the first sixpresidents who didn't own
slaves.
His other, of course, being, theother being John Quincy Adams.
But to call him an abolitionist,to say, you know, he was anti
(13:51):
slavery, that, that's going abit far.
And Bernstein points this outrightly so.
And so that's why I would puthim kind of in both of these
categories.
But I, I appreciate his, histake on, well, I like the title
of the book, for example, um,and, the, the changing political
thought of John Adams and, andthe way this comes out in his
(14:14):
writings.
So interesting.
You speak about otherhistorians, but let's skip now
to a non historian field.
The poet Ezra Pound wrote aboutAdams.
Why was he interested in JohnAdams, and what was he trying to
say about him in his poetry
Ah, Ezra Pound, he, he's aninteresting character and, I
(14:36):
knew I had to deal with him.
I had some help from an Englishprofessor, and I'm eternally
grateful to him for reading overthis section of the book,
because I wasn't sure where Iwas going with this, but Ezra
Pound, even in his collegeyears, became very interested in
the American Revolution.
And the early national period,and he had some influential
(14:59):
professors, who had a very,whiggish attitude toward our
history.
In other words, a progressivehistory that, that we started
out good and we just got better.
And Ezra Pound became fascinatedwith the founding era at that
point, but then in the late 20sand 30s, he became interested in
(15:23):
Mussolini and began makingcomparisons between Thomas
Jefferson and Mussolini.
Which, yeah, it, it shockspeople.
Um, and so Ezra Pound startedthinking about these founders
again, and what attracted him toJohn Adams is really a couple of
things.
He liked John Adams precision inlanguage.
(15:46):
Language was always important toEzra Pound, and he liked that
Adams was so precise in thewords that he chose.
So that was one thing thatattracted him.
But the other thing was thatEzra Pound believed in balance
in government, and so did JohnAdams.
And so it was almost, in thatsense, a match made in heaven
(16:09):
for Ezra Pound to write thispart of his cantos dedicated to
John Adams and the things thatJohn Adams did.
Did and what he wrote.
Um, in that vein, Ezra Poundalso connected John Adams with
ideas from Confucianism.
(16:33):
The idea of balance comes out ofConfucianism.
And so he's, he's tying all ofthese things together, but it
all surrounds balance ingovernment.
So I think that's whatfascinated Ezra Pound in the
end.
So we'll turn from Ezra Pound to
Irving Stone.
I didn't realize Stone hadpublished a book that's called,
Those Who Love, a biographicalnovel of Abigail and John Adams
(16:56):
he did a good deal of researchas he tells a story about four
and a half years worth ofresearch.
But what he liked to do, in hisstories is tell stories of
people who we, we know, butmaybe we don't know as well as,
as we should.
But he was also interested inthe female characters in some of
(17:19):
these people's lives.
And so, Those Who Love is toldfrom Abigail's perspective.
And, when we first meet JohnAdams, he is in her home.
And it's, it's a delightfulscene because he's got two books
in each hand and he's smellingthem.
And she catches him doing thisand, and thinks not, oh, I'm
(17:43):
madly in love, she thinks, whatan odd little man.
Um, and, but he turns around andexplains to her that, you know,
you can tell the paper, you cantell where the paper came from.
And so, the story goes fromthere, and he is very careful
to, to use the sources that theyprovide, their letters in
(18:06):
particular.
He stops the story, in 1801,perhaps because that's when they
basically stopped writing toeach other, they were together
for the rest of their lives.
Um, but he, He tells this storywith a sense that Abigail knew
(18:27):
what she was getting into withthis guy, and that she loved his
intellect.
He wished he was a little lessharsh sometimes.
But it's a wonderful portrait oftheir marriage.
And, apparently it caught theattention of, of a Hollywood
(18:47):
producer who thought aboutmaking a film, uh, starring
Peter O'Toole and, JulianneCruz.
Of all people.
The film never, never came tofruition.
And, as I say in the book, Iwonder if the producer ever saw
a picture of John Adams becausePeter was quite tall and like,
(19:09):
um, I'm not sure it would haveworked, but, it was that good
that that some people inHollywood said this should be a
movie.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-20 (19:17):
Now to one of my favorites, the
musical 1776 with the greatWilliam Daniels as John Adams.
You talk a lot about that.
I know you're a fan as well.
How did that musical and thesubsequent film come to be
Oh yes.
The story of that musical is, isfascinating to me.
It was conceived by a man namedSherman Edwards.
(19:37):
Um, who was a songwriter, but hehad, majored in history in
college, I think that he taughthigh school history for a time,
and he was always interested inthe American Revolution.
And he got this idea around1967, 68, um, to write a
musical.
And he had, basically he knewtwo things about it, that it was
(20:00):
going to be about theDeclaration of Independence, and
he had a title, 1776.
So he writes the script himselfbased upon, the Continental
Congress transcripts and diariesand other entries.
And he can't let the idea go.
And he tells the story at onepoint that he set out to go to
(20:21):
his studio in New York City andended up in Philadelphia.
And he died.
Doesn't remember how he gotthere.
It was a really scary moment forhim, but he's sitting in front
of Independence Hall saying, Howdid I get here?
And it was kind of a sign forhim, I think, that he needed to
pursue this idea.
So, He had a hard time finding aproducer because, um, as he
(20:46):
stated it, patriotism tended tobe box office poison.
But he finally found StuartOstrow, who agreed to do it.
And Stuart Ostrow brought in anew book writer, Peter Stone,
who added humor to it, who, whotook it from being a history
textbook to being a musical.
(21:07):
And that's when William Danielswas willing to, to jump on
board.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2 (21:10):
This is really a phenomenal musical
and film.
You say in the book, I think,very accurately that for those
of us who love it and have seenit multiple times, it does
affect how we see him now.
That portrayal has had an effecton how he's seen by many.
And do you think that's in apositive way, in a negative way,
or are we missing history bydoing that, or is it helping us
(21:32):
discover Adams
Um, for me personally, it was apositive thing, because until
1776, I knew the basics aboutJohn Adams, but I feel like I
really met him when I first sawthe film version of 1776,
because all of a sudden, I wasdrawn into the humanity of who
(21:54):
he was.
And you see that throughout themusical and you see the running
joke, the obnoxious and dislikedline.
But you also see at the end ofthe show, when he's having one
of his moments with Abigail,that that really kind of hurt
him.
Um, and Daniels plays this justbrilliantly.
(22:15):
I love William Daniels.
That was the other thing thathappened when I saw that movie,
a fascination with John Adamsand a fascination with William
Daniels.
I'm still a huge fan.
I sent him a copy of the book,by the way.
I never heard from him, but, youknow, I'm hoping that maybe
someday.
But, uh, if you're listening,William Daniels.
(22:37):
But you're right that it hasaffected how we remember him.
In that that trope of obnoxiousand disliked that's carried
throughout that musical.
You also see that a bit in laterportrayals of him, so that it
overshadows some other aspectsof his personality.
(23:00):
So it did have a giganticeffect, and as far as the film
is concerned, I think it's beenrediscovered over the years
because TMC shows it every yearon the 4th of July.
It's been restored.
Because parts of it were, weretaken out, apparently at the
(23:21):
request of President RichardNixon, I understand.
And it's, it's beautifully,beautifully restored.
So if you ever get to see thedirector's cut with, with all of
the restored material, I highlyrecommend that.
I'll have to do that.
I will say my wife had not seenthis.
She was a fan of Hamilton.
(23:42):
I said, well, if you've seenHamilton, we're going to, we're
going to watch 1776 now andwatch it a few times.
So it's a favorite of hers aswell.
Now, you know, one I haven'tseen is the mini series, Adam's
Chronicles produced by PBSduring the bicentennial.
How did it portray him?
And was it equivalent to what wesaw in 1776 or was it some way
(24:03):
different?
Um, it's very different,actually.
The writers of the AddamsChronicles had a very, very
strict script in that they wereasked by the Addams family not
to stray from the Addams Papers.
(24:25):
And so nothing in that script isimagined.
It's all coming from the Adamspapers.
John Adams himself was played byan actor named George Grizzard.
Who I knew in later years, hedid some episodes of Murder, She
Wrote.
I mean, he was a great actor.
Great character actor andBroadway actor.
And, the portrayal there isshowing John Adams from his
(24:50):
early years as a lawyer and hiscourtship with Abigail, which is
something that we don't see inother portrayals, um, through
his death.
And the theme that comes up alot there is John Adams having
to reign in his vanity.
(25:11):
One of the lines that comes outa lot in that show is down
vanity, down vanity.
So it, in a way, it's not,really an over the top portrayal
of John Adams because of thescript.
restrictions that they had.
But George Grizzard evenmentioned that, that he would
(25:35):
talk about the script with, withpeople.
And, and one of the things thathappens with a lot of the actors
who play John Adams is that theydevelop this, this, love for
him.
They develop even aprotectiveness of him.
And that happened with GeorgeGrizzard as well.
So, it's interesting and it, ittakes the Adams family through
(25:58):
all four generations of thepeople that we know.
And interestingly enough,William Daniels plays John
Quincy Adams in the AdamsChronicles.
So, um, he, yeah, he gets aroundin the Addams family.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (26:14):
Well, that's another thing I will put
on my list of things to do, iswatch the Adam's Chronicles.
Now, I'm going to go back tohistorians now, because we
can't, leave our discussionwithout talking about David
McCullough's, Pulitzer Prizewinning biography, John Adams,
uh, as I said to you before,it's one of those books.
I didn't want it to end, youknow, it's just so well done.
Uh, what are your thoughts onthat portrayal?
(26:36):
And, and also, uh, just to kindof segue into the next thing,
HBO kind of adapted that, thatbook into a mini series.
What were your thoughts on thatmini series with Paul Giamatti
playing John Adams
i love David McCullough's Hewrites in a style that brings
you in immediately.
(26:57):
And one of the things I did withthe introduction of my book was
try to mimic that a little bit.
When I started the introduction,I said, how would David
McCullough write this?
So I was, I was trying tochannel him a little bit.
But I don't know whether Isucceeded or not, but I was
trying, um, what McCullough did,I think with John Adams is, is
(27:20):
again, bring him to theforefront in a way that no other
author has managed to do.
It was a New York Timesbestseller and no other
biography that I know of, JohnAdams has ever achieved that.
But as some people pointed out,John Adams loses some of his
(27:41):
crusty edge in DavidMcCullough's biography.
I'm not sure that's completelyfair, but I do see their point
because McCullough was trying totell the story of a man that he
had recently come to appreciatein a new way.
And, and so, I think focusingon, the warmer side of John
(28:04):
Adams was a way that.
McCulloch approached that and Iappreciated that.
He also told some stories thatsegwaying into the miniseries
didn't make it into theminiseries for reasons that I
don't quite understand.
And one of the things thatMcCulloch emphasized, um, was
(28:28):
John Adams capacity forfriendship.
Which is something that's oftenmissed in these portrayals.
And McCulloch tells the story ofJohn Adams and Jonathan Sewell,
one of his oldest, dearestfriends, and they had to part
ways because of the revolution.
It was heartbreaking for both ofthem.
(28:50):
McCulloch tells the story, itdoesn't show up in the
miniseries.
Sewell is there, but if youdon't know who he is, you have
no idea that there's, there'sthis bond there.
And I think they missed anopportunity with that.
So I think in respects, whilethe script was, true to the
(29:11):
McCullough biography, so thatthe miniseries wouldn't be 20
hours long, they had to makesome choices.
They had to conflate somethings, and that's
understandable.
But what got left out a littlebit, I think, was the nuance in
John Adams.
Now, having said that, I thinkPaul Giamatti's portrayal is
(29:32):
brilliant.
Um, to go from 1770 to 1826 theway he did.
He does a wonderful job.
But even in recent years whenPaul Giamatti talks about that
role, I'm not sure he completelyunderstood who John Adams was.
Um, because he was working froma script.
(29:55):
And he saw John Adams as acharacter in a movie.
That's how he approached it.
As a matter of fact, evenWilliam Daniels didn't do any
outside research.
He didn't read anything outside,of the script until after he'd
done the show, and peoplestarted sending him biographies
of John Adams.
So, this is something that, it'sa common theme for actors.
(30:19):
They want to go with what thescript gives them.
Giamatti did a good jobcapturing some aspects of John
Adams, but I think other thingswere, were missing there.
Again, the warmth.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024 (30:31):
I hate to admit it's been a while
since I've been to the Adams,National Historical Park in
Quincy.
Can, you tell our listenersperhaps if they haven't been and
remind me how he's rememberedthere, how the Park Service
interprets the story?
The Park Service has a reallyinteresting history and the
Adams sites are scattered aroundQuincy.
(30:51):
Quincy itself has become a realadvocate for making sure that
the Adams legacy is remembered.
They, they have a new HancockAdams common.
They are proposing an AdamsPresidential Center, which
should be built in Quincy.
Um, but the Park Service itselfstarted out with just the old
(31:15):
house or Peacefield, which wasdonated to the Park Service in
1946.
And then slowly but surely thePark Service got some of the
other sites.
They got the birthplaces in1978, and then finally in 1980,
United First Parish Church,where John Adams and Abigail are
(31:37):
buried, became part of the ParkService, essentially in name
only.
But, but it, it took that kindof time to get all of these
parts together.
And when you go to do the fullfledged tour, at Adams, you
start out in the visitor center,you see a nice film, which is
(31:57):
relatively new, uh, because PaulGiamatti and Laura Linney
provide the voices of John andAbigail in it.
You know that it's fairlyrecent.
And then you visit thebirthplaces where they tell the
story of, John Adams childhood.
And then, John and Abigail'searly marriage.
Then you.
(32:19):
You head off to Peacefield whereyou hear the story of the rest
of the family, essentially.
And, uh, the interpreters atAdams are really wonderful.
They're dedicated people andthey love the Adams family.
They are passionate aboutcontinuing to protect that
(32:40):
legacy and, I had the privilegeand the pleasure of talking to
Kelly Cobble, who was theircurator until she died suddenly.
Um, but she was wonderful andher enthusiasm for John Adams in
particular, just just flew outof her.
(33:01):
She, she loved what she did andshe loved preserving their
legacy.
Um, and, but she also said, youknow, we're entering a new age
here.
So it will be interesting to seehow the interpretations change
as we're reassessing ourfounders.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04- (33:18):
Well, I, uh, I will be up there
hopefully again soon.
And I'll certainly report toyou.
You do The same as that, uh,interpretation is, changed over
the next few years.
So, so Marianne, greatconversation.
What's next for you?
What are you working on rightnow?
Well, I have started someresearch on a study of museums
(33:39):
dedicated to the AmericanRevolution and how they are
interpreting that story.
And I'm looking at three veryspecific areas.
Boston, Philadelphia, andYorktown, Virginia.
And the reason I chose thosethree is because in all three of
those areas you have the ParkService on the one hand,
preserving sites, and And on theother hand, you have either
(34:03):
state funded or privately fundedmuseums that have started
popping up that are also tellingthese stories.
And I'm interested in howthey're cooperating, how they're
clashing at times, who's doingwhat, um, and why., there are a
lot of moving parts, so it's,it's, it's interesting.
(34:23):
research I've just begun.
It will take me a while toactually get a book out of it,
but, but that's what I've beenworking on.
And I'm also not quite done withJohn Adams.
There's something that's, hedoes that, you know, he, um, I'm
really interested as, as we moveinto remembering the revolution
(34:46):
at two 50, really interested inlooking at how he remembered it,
In his later years, Joseph Ellistalks a good deal about this,
and I'm trying to decide ifJoseph Ellis has done enough, or
if there's an article in therewhere I can look at the meaning
of the revolution to John Adams,and how that might differ from,
(35:08):
the way people think about it.
Who didn't live through it wereinterpreting it even before he
died.
Because they were flying lettersto him asking him, you know,
what happened and how do youremember this?
And and so the the primarysources are definitely there and
I'm interested in Looking atthat as well.
(35:29):
So a lot going on.
squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-202 (35:30):
Of course, as you proceed with
that, let us know.
And I, I must say your study ofmuseums and the revolution
really reminds me a lot of thepresidents as well.
You know, the presidentiallibraries where I worked for
many years, part of the federalgovernment, and then you have
state involvement, you haveprivate groups, nonprofits, and
so forth, really interesting tolook at those different
interpretations.
So looking forward to all that.
And I'm glad to see John Adamshas not let go of you.
(35:52):
That's terrific.
I really appreciate, what afantastic discussion.
I want to thank you and thankeveryone for listening and for
your support of American POTUS.
You know, we are dedicated toeducation and a thoughtful civil
discussion of our history.
So I also want to say, pleasetake a moment to check out the
new podcast, American FLOTUS,all about the first ladies.
(36:15):
That we're producing inpartnership with the First
Ladies Association for Researchand Education.
You can find episodes ofAmerican
flotus@americanpotus.org, atflair net.org, or on your
favorite podcast platform.
So thanks everyone very much,and I'll see you next time on
American potus.
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