August 30, 2023 • 50 mins
Did you know that the financial strain of full-time ministry can be eased with a dual vocation? Get ready to have your traditional concepts of ministry challenged in this eye-opening episode as we sit down with Pastor Eric Hoke, a church planner in the Bronx for over a decade. Eric unravels the pressing need for bi-vocational ministry, sharing his inspiring journey from servicing just a few pastors to now assisting 20 to 40 bi-vocational pastors.
The complexities of running urban churches are unique. From the lack of physical space to the transience of people, the hurdles are endless. But, as we explore in this podcast, co-vocational ministry can help surmount these obstacles. With Eric Hoke, we delve deep into the compelling history and contemporary relevance of co-vocational ministry – drawing parallels from Lydia's home church in the early days to the Brethren Church in Zambia and a city-to-city initiative today.
The discussion takes a turn towards coaching and personal branding within the church, often an ignored aspect of ministry. Eric's five frameworks for coaching ministry provide enlightening insights. We also discuss the often-misunderstood concept of personal branding within the confines of the church, and how pastors can use it to position themselves most effectively. Join us and learn how we can all embrace ministry in our unique ways, just like Lydia, a successful businesswoman and early church supporter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I pray that you're leaninginto growing today that the
right hand side of your brain,the relational connection, the
joy of Jesus, the hesed lovethat comes from knowing you are
unconditionally loved by the Godof the universe, by grace,
through faith in Jesus Christ,you've been connected to the
(00:58):
greatest mission of all time,which is making him known in
word and deed.
Today you're in for a treat.
We have a brand new friend ofmine who was connected to me by
Matt Peoples.
Shout out to Matt Peoples he'sbeen on American Reformation a
number of times and this isPastor Eric Hoek.
Now I got to tell you a littlebit about Eric before we get in.
He's a decade long churchplanner in the Bronx and he has
(01:22):
this ministry.
That is unbelievable.
If you've been connected to theKnight Leadership Collective for
any number of months or years,you know that we have a strong
desire to see more bivocationalleaders raised up within local
congregations.
A lot of times, the mechanismsor the pathways for recognizing
the need for bivocationalministry from house churches to
(01:44):
maybe smaller churches, themechanisms in the Lutheran
Church of Missouri Synod are notnecessarily there.
So one of our missions is tohighlight the need for
bivocational ministers, and Erichas an amazing ministry that he
started out as kind of a sidegig with three to four pastors
and over the last number ofyears it's grown to serving 20
(02:05):
to 40 bivocational pastors atany time.
So welcome, eric, and share alittle bit more of your ministry
story.
And before you do that standardquestion how are you praying
for Reformation in the AmericanChristian Church?
Thanks for hanging with metoday, eric.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Thank you so much, tim.
And the way that I'm prayingfor Reformation in the American
Church is as you said, that'sfor the last 10 years in the
South Bronx in New York City.
New York City is an amazing,complicated place to live and do
ministry.
One of the things that'scomplicated and amazing is that
it's a post-Christian city.
So I mean you have immigrantchurches and you have that
(02:44):
coming in which helps keep thescaffolding clear for the faith
of New Yorkers, but at baselinethere's no social capital to go
to church in New York City.
You don't talk to yourcoworkers about what your
preacher talked about on Sundays.
That's just not part of theculture and one of the things
that's a, you know, unintendedconsequence, but a benefit of
(03:04):
that is that Christians are nottribal.
So I have three children five,three and one.
My five-year-old, lydia hasbeen to every sort of church you
can imagine from.
You know, yesterday we went toan all-black menacoste church to
support a friend of mine whoplanted a church up in Yonkers,
new York.
Shout out to Pastor Kevin.
So they've been to experienceslike that.
They've been to Episcopal andCatholic and Anglican churches,
(03:27):
they've been to Methodist andBaptist and Presbyterian
churches and everything inbetween, and to my five-year-old
and my other daughters as wellchurch is just church and God's
people are just God's people andI love that innocence in them.
But they don't have and they'restill kids, of course, but they
don't have that sense of like.
Oh well, they're not the trueChristians or the real
Christians or the spiritualChristians like we are.
(03:47):
So I'm praying that more peoplecan be like my five-year-old
and they can just say, hey,we're all God's people, we're
all figured out.
We all might have slightlydifferent expressions of what
that means, but if Jesus is Lord, we can all agree to that, that
creed and doctrine.
We're all on the same team,baby, so let's make it happen.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It appears as if Jesus said something about that.
Eric, yeah, If you do notreceive the King, we got like a
little child you'll never enterit.
Yeah, I can say more.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, man.
I mean one of the things that Ido.
I come from kind of the Baptistevangelical world, but for the
past three years I've been goingto a Benedictine monastery for
retreat.
Every year for my birthday inthe end of March, which is in
upstate New York, I'm out savingyour monastery for those who
are interested.
And it's funny because lasttime I went I went with my
executive pastor, eleazar, orboth like young pastors I'm in
(04:35):
my 30s, he's in his late 20s,early 30s at the time and for
some reason the monks thought wewere both priests and all
weekend just retreating as likepriests.
And we told them no, we're notpriests, we're both evangelical
pastors.
And not like they were mad oroffended, we never lied to them,
we just assumed we were priests.
Mostly priests go there, butjust two single guys.
(04:56):
And then the one monk, brotherBruno, who's probably 70 years
old, was like, oh, it's okay, weall worship the same God.
I was like yeah, fair point,brother Bruno.
God, you're right.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
True.
Yeah, I mean, as you see theworld going the way that we're
and this is just from thebeginning of our rebellion the
world has been decelerating awayfrom the promises of God and
the more we kind of see this.
And obviously I wrote a I'mpreaching this upcoming week on
the impact of technology.
So much to say there.
(05:27):
Do you think technology hasincreased our tribalism Is like
social media.
You can like find in ourdenomination Luther Church,
missouri Synod, a conservativeconfessing his story.
You know, really our roots goback to the Catholic church and
then obviously through the storyof the Reformation 500 years
ago.
But I don't think.
I don't think social media andtechnology in general has
(05:50):
increased our unity capital, ourjoy capital as the church.
Anything to say there.
I think it's increasedtribalism.
Go ahead, eric.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean 100%.
It's not a Christian show atall, but Netflix has a series
called Black Mirror and in themost recent season there's an
episode of here which we'regoing to call it.
It's called Someone is theWorst and basically the premise
of the shows have followed himaround showing all the bad parts
of her life as like a Netflixshow, and one of the interesting
(06:19):
narratives in that storylinewas we try to make it positive.
It was like so it's always likethe negative thing she did, but
like expanded.
And I said well, when we'redoing market research, we try to
make it positive, like painther in the best light possible.
But I think as many reviews oras many clicks, as many eyeballs
, people want to see thedumpster fires and I can
certainly attest that I've beenguilty of that in my own life as
(06:41):
well.
I mean, I opened Twitter andit's a dumpster fire and that's
just.
But you feel like you're suckedinto it.
I just got a vacation last week.
I was visiting the Polkino'swith my parents and was off any
social media for the wholeentire week and, believe it or
not, 10 miles happier and morefulfilled and more joyful and
more patient and more loving andall the things that Jesus calls
(07:02):
us to be.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You just got to call it out, man.
You know we are, we are notaccelerating in terms of our
character and we're notconnected to one another.
It's false connection, like Iwant to be.
I want to be where the peopleare.
I want to be like with realpeople in real time, talking
about, you know, real stuffgoing on in our real lives, the
(07:25):
ups and downs of our lives, andit's just.
It's just a fake in the bad.
Some people can find connectionand I.
It has some benefit, I guess.
But talk about the church andthe role of the church providing
that has said that lovingcommunity connection.
This is, this is where thechurch is, where people are
gathered to hear his word andthen to live out his word in
(07:48):
real time, in real contexts,with folks walking through the
ups and downs.
So talk about this set, thatneed for close connection, and
then weave that, if you would,into into your bivocational
ministry story.
If you would, eric, awesome.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, man.
Thank you so much, gosh.
Where to start?
Well, I guess I'll.
I guess I'll start with thisangle and then we'll kind of
unpack from here.
But you know, covid-19, I feellike experience for the
collective world.
It was like a before COVID,after COVID life, and before
COVID, I think, in my faithcommunity I realized that people
(08:26):
didn't come to church much tomy.
You know, bruce Diego, theyhear me preach.
They came to church becausethey wanted to see their friends
, they wanted to be in community, they want to go out for lunch,
they want to share their upsand downs with somebody.
And then, you know, when COVIDcame, new York City locked down,
probably tighter than anywhereelse in the country did.
So we couldn't have a service,and there was not just
(08:48):
restrictions, it was alsobecause of what we meet and what
have you.
We couldn't have an actualphysical service for 20 months.
Everything was digital, on Zoom, and it was just.
Of course it wasn't the same.
Nobody would say it was thesame, but it was really an
apparent thing to me living in aplace like New York City, that
somebody wants a high productionshow, they can go to Broadway
(09:09):
and they can see the bestproduction in the world, quite
literally.
But they don't come to churchfor that.
They come to church becausetheir friends are there, their
family is there, people who knowthem and love them and care
about them are there.
And you know this quote by TimKeller and you know Tim Keller's
who, how many of me and thatpeople's met and he says if
you're a small church pastor,they let you preach because you
(09:31):
pastor them right, and if you'rea big church pastor, they let
you pastor them because youpreach to them.
So I found, if church isnothing more than just the
disseminating information fromthe stage, you can do that from
home, and if someone better thanyou online, I can do that as
well.
But when you actually havesomeone who loves and cares and
is on mission with you, thatmakes the world of the
(09:51):
difference.
So me, as a bivocational guy, Icould stay in for my
congregation on a Sunday and say, listen, I get it.
Tomorrow I have my you know,quarterly review with my manager
.
I miss some of my goals and myKPI.
I'm really stressed out.
I don't know how it's going togo.
So please pray for me as I gothrough that.
And the person sitting therecan say, oh yeah, I get that too
(10:13):
.
I've had, you know, thepressure of not performing at
the highest level at my job andbeing concerned about my job
security as well.
It just makes you a lot morerelatable, because you're on
mission with people every singleday, monday through Saturday
and then on Sundays.
When you come together, youfellowship, you enjoy, you give
life to each other, you hear theword of God, you take the
elements.
All that good stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That's awesome, bro.
I think the future of, andmaybe the present actually, just
given the demographics of theAmerican Christian church, is
going to be smaller rather thanlarger, more small pockets, what
we think of as small groups inour context.
I'm privileged to pastor in ourdenomination, a mega church.
(10:55):
We worship 800 people, 1,000seasonal right.
But I totally agree with that.
They're letting me preachbecause I'm a pastor here,
because in the big scheme ofthings that's not, you know, and
I'm a passionate guy.
I loved it.
But I realize that the primarybenefit is the courtyard time
(11:15):
afterwards and the group's goingout to get coffee or lunch
afterwards.
So I think the future and thenwe've got a couple other smaller
, smaller multi sites, you know,worshiping 80 people or so, and
I think that's going to be alittle bit more of the standard.
So would you go into thenecessity for bivocational?
Because in our context we'vegot a lot of bivocational
(11:37):
students.
Some of them in time will beordained as pastors, god willing
.
So yeah, what's yourperspective on the necessity of
bivocational ministry today?
Eric?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, I think I have a unique vantage point because I
think, culturally, what happensin places like New York and LA
San Francisco, these are kind ofcanaries in the coal mine.
Culturally, originally fromPennsylvania, I was actually in
Pennsylvania this past week,application, like I said, I was
driving to one of the waterparks with our kids.
I commented to my wife.
I said I can't believe how manylike mega churches there are.
(12:10):
I mean, I mean mega, but like500 North, you know churches
like big churches, large parkinglots, big signage, all the
fancy stuff, and such a ruralpart of the country like where
do all the people draw from?
This is insane, whereas incities it's the opposite.
You have these high risebuildings, you have these, you
know, 30, 40 story low incomehousing projects and when I was
(12:31):
doing my kind of market researchto prepare for planting all
saints church in 2017, I hadrealized the largest
non-catholic church on this lotof Hispanics in my community, so
Catholics, catholicism is thelargest you know denomination,
largest non-catholic, soevangelical church was 75 adults
and this is in a zip code of50,000 people and there's a
(12:54):
million and one reason for that.
But the biggest one, I think,is obviously space.
It's hard to come by space thatpeople at churches can afford,
based on the ties and offeringsof a congregation.
And then the second one is thetransients.
People come and go in a placelike New York very often.
When I was a youth pastor in NewJersey before planting my own
church, I went back there like ayear ago.
(13:16):
I had not been there in over adecade and the church was like
95% the same people, whereas youknow my church plant in the
Bronx.
It was basically a newcongregation every three years,
not because people got offendedat me even though some of them
did but most of it was justbecause I'm moving.
My job has changed.
I'm going to a different partof the state or the city.
What have you?
(13:37):
So, with that being said, I meanI don't know the exact numbers,
but I want to say, like theaverage size church in all of
America, not just the inner city, is less than 50 people and I
mean that's not a, you know, nota massive group of people.
That's what?
A dozen families or so.
So to expect that those dozenfamilies to fund you as a pastor
, especially if you have a wifeand you have children, their
(13:58):
medical bills, what have you.
It's just really a challengingthing to do and I think a lot of
pastors are kind of waking upand realizing wait a second, if
I'm a you know, 30 year old or40 year old and I've got a young
family and I'm making below theminimum wage a bus driver in my
school district makes moremoney than I do as a pastor this
(14:18):
kind of sucks.
I have no benefits.
I can't keep doing this and Iwant to find a different path.
So I'm sorry if I can't saythis kind of sucks in your
podcast, but I just didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, yeah, it's fine.
All right, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I've been approved.
Okay, just avoid the otherletters, right.
But you know, I think that alot of pastors are realizing in
2023, hey, it's not 1980 anymoreI can't go, you know, work at a
church of 200, 300 people andmake a middle class life.
It's just not reallysustainable.
So I help pastors get jobs as aministry and, by God's grace,
(14:50):
we help pastors with ministrysustainability without money
stress, and we do that through aco-vocational model.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So say more I use bi vocational, use co vocational.
Talk about the differencebetween bi and co.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, the easiest way to describe it in so many words
is bi vocational is I workbecause I have to.
So I am a pastor of a church.
My church is small Maybe it's achurch startup.
We can't afford for me to havea full-time salary.
So I'm going to go be asubstitute teacher, I'm going to
go be a barista at Starbucks,I'm going to go do X, y and Z
and once my church gets bigenough, then I'm going to quit
(15:26):
this day job and be a full-timepastor.
I'm bi vocational, covocational is I work because I
want to and I view my job as anextension of my everyday
ministry.
And even if the church couldafford to pay me tomorrow, I
would still keep my job becausethis is part of my ministry.
So I would have self-identifiedas a co-vocational pastor.
So even if my church was ableto pay me my salary tomorrow, I
(15:49):
still would keep my job becauseit's an opportunity for me to
minister money through Fridayand it also frees me up to equip
the saints to do the work ofthe ministry.
I was a full-time pastor forfive years.
I enjoyed it.
There's certainly benefits toit.
By the same time, there is thatpressure that, oh, I'm the one
who's paid to be here, and I'mthe one that's paid to do this.
So I found it personally not ifone does harder to delegate,
(16:12):
harder to give away, harder toempower, harder to equip the
saints to do the work of theministry as we're called to do
Fijians 412, as a co-vocationalor bi vocational pastor, you
kind of have to.
You don't have much of a choice.
You got limited time, energyand bandwidth, so it's more of a
team approach to doing theministry, which is something I
found to be very beneficial andalso a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Eric, that makes so much sense.
Man and we've walked alongsidea lot of pastors and in our
denomination, like I've said,co-vocational even bi vocational
is not something we talk aboutan awful lot.
You've gone through four yearsof undergrad, likely, and then
maybe four years of seminary.
You may have a little bit ofdebt if you've gone in with a
(16:57):
family.
I mean, you've made maybe somemajor life sacrifices to go
residential seminary and so youkind of come out.
We're like, hey, I'll put inall this time.
I'm entitled, if you will, to ina sense to this kind of
full-time role and then you knowif you don't have people on a
board or a group of elders orpartners.
You know it's really easy tomove into the doer rather than
(17:20):
the developer mindset and I'venever really wrapped my head as
much around the economicalreality and this kind of while
you're being paid to do it andhow much of a struggle I guess I
have, but just how much of astruggle that is to make that
shift from doer to developer.
But for a co-vocational guy orgal, it's just in your blood.
It has to happen right.
(17:41):
And as I think of a number ofthe folks that are co-vocational
here, and thank you for thedefinition because I'll switch
some of my language, because wehave way more co-vocational
leaders than bi-vocational.
They're going to stay in themarketplace.
That's a major part of theirministry and they by nature,
develop people more naturally.
(18:02):
So I've seen it in spades man.
Anything else to add to that?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, man, I think the biggest thing is there is a
stigma in every denominationthat I'm aware of where you know
when are you going to be a realpastor, when are you going to
have a real church?
And you're not really a realpastor with a little church and
tells your full-time job.
And the thing I always want topush back against that is, If
you look at church history andeven the international church,
(18:26):
co-vocational, bi-vocational isthe norm.
Those of us who have had theprivilege to be full-time, we're
the minority and thank God thatwe have the ability to do that.
But, like you said, Tim, you'respot on.
To think you're going to go tofour years undergrad, three-year
seminary, move your family,graduate with $60,000 more in
debt and that you're just goingto waddle into a church making
(18:47):
$80,000 a year with great healthinsurance because you're right,
as a person is a little bitfoolish.
I hate to use that word, but Idon't know what else to call it.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
So you're walking through.
Get a little bit more, becausewe may have some people that
want to reach out to you.
Eric, to navigate the ministry.
Is it a name, is it just anorganic thing that's just kind
of taken off relationally?
Say more about your ministry.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, man, so the ministry is called.
I kept it really simple forpeople because we pastors we
like to make things simple.
It's called I help pastors getjobs and basically the domain I
help pastors get jobscom andessentially the way it works is
we help ministers and ministryprofessionals rebrand and
(19:33):
remessage their skills in a waythat makes sense to hiring
managers, because you can'tsubmit a resume I mean you're a
handsome guy, tim, but with your, your face and it says password
, tim, you're in top skills, thediscipleship preaching.
You can't put that in and letgo get a job at XYZ corporation.
They're going to think who inthe world is this guy Right?
So, like, what we do is we helppastors think through hey, you
(19:56):
didn't, you know, you didn'tlead Bible studies, you did
event planning, you didn'tpreach, you communicated to
stakeholders, you didn't managea board, you managed a budget
and a leadership team, things ofthat nature.
Just again, remessaging andrebranding.
And the cool thing about it isthat we have a business model.
I've always admired Louis VonAn, who's the founder of
(20:17):
Duolingo.
Louis always says I would neverwant cost to be a barrier for
someone to learn, to not learn alanguage, because there's so
many benefits to learning otherlanguages.
So I help pastors get jobs.
About 97% of the folks whoengage us don't pay a penny.
They can get our emailnewsletter.
They can get our free PDF.
We have free videos they canwatch they don't pay a penny.
(20:37):
And then it's 3% of the pastorswho decide to, you know, invest
a little bit of their of theirmoney because they really want
to make a move and they caneither do a class, a master
class, which is nine hours of mesharing kind of the best
practices to go from A to Z onhow to rebrand yourself as a
marketplace professional, and Ijoke around that it took me nine
years to figure it out.
(20:58):
I'll teach you in nine hours.
So it's a pretty good deal.
So that's like the most entrylevel, basic tier, one tier
above.
That is what I call resumerewrite, which is when a pastor
will say I really want this job,can you go ahead and make me a
resume tailored to this job.
And it's been a really amazingthing because we'll have pastors
who apply to 100 jobs, get zerocallbacks, show up for a resume
(21:19):
, apply to three jobs and getthree callbacks within a day or
two.
And it's not because there'sany magic potion in the resume.
It's just knowing how to usethe right words and the right
language that you know makessense to the person receiving it
.
And the final tier is kind ofall that the class, the resume,
a cover letter and then a coachand call with me where I sit
down with the pastor and sayhere's how you kind of dial in
(21:41):
your LinkedIn.
Let's practice some interviewquestions, let's really spend
time really getting to know eachother, figure out where your
you know weaknesses are and makethem stronger.
And interviews are a big onebecause interviewing for a
marketplace job and interviewingfor a pastoral job are worlds
apart and a lot of ways they'reactually in complete tension.
So learning how to kind ofuntangle those is really
(22:02):
critical for a pastor who wantsto transition.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Dude, I love this Like this is good.
How long have you been doingthis?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
This launched in March 2022.
So a year and a half.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't think I I'm pretty well connected.
Is anybody else doing this?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Well, here's a I haven't heard of yeah, in my I
have a day job.
So my co-vocational job is witha workforce development
organization where I train 18 to29 year olds from underserved
communities to get jobs at JPMorgan, bank of America,
salesforce, metta, what have you?
And one day the light bulb wentoff on my head.
You know what?
There's a lot of programs likethis for underserved people.
(22:39):
There's a lot of programs likethis for veterans.
But who helps pastors when theywant to change careers?
And I just you know, I called.
I called Steve Plike.
You guys have Steve Plike on onher show a few weeks ago.
I like to listen to that one.
He's a mentor of mine, a friend.
I call Brad Briscoe.
I'm not sure if you know him.
He's the director ofco-vocational ministry for North
American Mission Board, whichis my, my background.
And then I call Robert Elkin,who works for Redeemer City to
(23:01):
City, and I'm like hey man, Ihave this really crazy idea help
pastors rebrand frommarketplace professionals,
explore co-vocational ministry.
I know somebody smarter andricher and more handsome is
already doing it.
Tell me who it is so I can justreach out to them and see how I
can support them.
Brad, steve, robert were likeno, no one that I know is doing
that.
He'd be the first, and I thinkI still am the first and the
(23:23):
only person that actually justhelps pastors.
Only you know.
Rebrand, and here's how you geta marketplace job.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Eric, you're an entrepreneur, bro.
There are a few people like youwho say, because creativity is
taking two existing ideas andjust bringing them together.
You know the church is evolving, we all know.
You know, pastors, the churchwas closing and all of that Like
, let's, let's care for ourbrothers and for those who have
women in ministry.
(23:50):
Ordained women in ministry tooare yeah, it's really really
powerful.
So let's, let's dig into thetheology of co-vocational by
vocational.
You referenced scripture andeven history, some folks who
leveraged co-vocational byvocational ministry.
What are some of your primaryexamples?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah.
So I'm not going to say Paul,cause everybody says Paul, so
we'll skip over him today, tedmaker?
Yeah, kind of easy answer, butI'm going to leverage.
I'm going to talk about Lydia,who was, of course, one of
Paul's accomplices and helpersin ministry.
She was a business woman, shehad a dealer in purple cloths,
but she was also a woman whofeared God and she used her
wealth.
She posted, you know, a churchin her home and she was somebody
(24:32):
who had a lot to give inministry, though she was never,
you know, full-time pastor or invocational ministry.
She was somebody who used her,her skills and entrepreneurship,
which I'm sure came in handyfor starting the church.
She used her home inhospitality, which was massive,
and she also we could have someevidence she funded, helped fund
Paul's ministry, like she wasone of his donors, and it's
(24:53):
pretty phenomenal Think aboutthat that God used her.
Because I'm afraid in a lot ofour churches we would say to
Lydia okay, go to seminary andget ordained and go and become a
full-time pastor for God to useyou.
Actually, wait a minute.
I think God is using me, maybenot in that way, but in this
special way.
The other thing I'll share ismore of a modern example.
So after Bible college, I wentto Liberty for undergrad.
(25:15):
I spent three months in SouthAfrica and Zambia as a
missionary, and while I was inZambia I worked with the
Brethren Church, and one of theunique things about the Brethren
Church is they have, at leastin that context, all of them.
Other pastors wereco-vocational and they would
actually have four pastors, allof which had day jobs and each
(25:35):
one kind of oversee a differentdomain of ministry.
So one was the family guy, onewas the outreach guy, one was
the mercy and justice guy andone was like the finance guy.
They each took a turn preaching, one per month essentially, but
they all had their kind ofdepartments they oversaw, and it
was pretty amazing because theyhad a pretty large church, I
want to say north of 200 or 300people, but a single-page staff
(25:56):
member, but four kind ofvolunteer pastors that had teams
, who had teams, that had teams.
And I also see that here in theinner city as well, with Spanish
Pentecostal churches.
We'll see all these churchesthat have multiple pastors on
staff, all of whom are volunteer.
So you call that Novo, novocational yes, we're a
volunteer pastor, but they'reable to equip the saints, like
(26:17):
we said earlier, to kind ofmaximize ministry.
There is no solo pastor model,which I think is pretty profound
and I would probably.
What you would say is probablymore biblical as well.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, dude, I agree with you on so many things and I
know we're just getting to knowone another.
But for those of you who havelistened to this for a while,
sometimes I feel like I can pullout my hair a little bit
because of our very narrowunderstanding of what formation
looks like.
(26:48):
We even used in ourdenomination the gold standard
of seminary training asresidential and I may say, okay,
if you can, if it's the rightseason of life, I think it's
great.
But we're making a case that itshouldn't be kind of the only.
We don't have in ourdenomination an online MDIV, and
(27:08):
so we're running a test with,again out of our now I have new
language, not bivocationalco-vocational pastors in our
context and we're hoping it getsobserved with curiosity rather
than condemnation by our churchbody.
We'll see how that will go.
So, along those lines, whatshould seminary or, in your
experience, what has seminaryeducation, theological formation
(27:30):
, look like for co-vocationalpastors?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, I mean I had the traditional route, tim.
I went to a residentialseminary Naya College.
I'm grateful for that.
I think it was formative.
I also recognize I'm a personof immense privilege.
I'm a person that had the meansto upper my life and relocate
for seminary.
I had a wife who was a nursethat made a lot of money.
We didn't have any children atthe time.
So if you were to say to me now, as a man who's 36 years old
(27:56):
with three kids, hey, upper yourlife and go to seminary another
part of the country, I'd belike, yeah, that's not going to
happen.
Sorry, it's not in the cardsfor me, but at the time it did.
I think city to city, where MattPeeples and I met, is a really
good example of what trainingcan look like.
So they have a program calledthe Incubator with bivocational
pastors.
They do it for full-timepastors as well, but to cohort
(28:18):
of ministers who are serving inreal time.
So these are not people who arejust starting out.
They have a ministry.
It could be a senior pastor, itcould be a associate pastor, it
could be a church planter.
But they meet once a month,normally in the evenings, I
think.
They swap it between online andin person.
I'm not sure how they're doingit currently, but that's how
they were doing it when I wasfamiliar with them, and they'll
(28:40):
do projects, they do papers,they do readings.
They do all the things youwould imagine a seminary does.
The cool thing with them, too,is that they do it at no cost
and I'm a granite.
They're a city to city.
They're Redeemer PresbyterianChurch, they're Tim Keller.
They have a lot of money, a lotof influence, a lot of all that
stuff, but it's prettyphenomenal that they have the
ability to train pastors notjust Presbyterian pastors, not
(29:01):
just PCA church planters in NewYork City, but of every
denomination stripe you canimagine, at no cost to the
student.
And it's accessible, it'scontextual, it's in the evenings
and weekends for theco-vocational guys.
There's nothing worse thanseeing a church.
I've seen this before.
It's so funny.
They'll look at the nominationand say we love our
co-vocational planters.
(29:21):
Please join us for aco-vocational lunch on Thursday
at 12 pm.
It's like yeah, I'll be at work.
I'm not going to be at workthat long.
So I think that's a really goodexample of how you can train
co-vocational leaders.
It's kind of that more hybriddelivery model Evens and
weekends, low cost, stay in yourcontext, but let's do it while
you're on mission.
Let's have a pumpy full theoryand send you out.
(29:43):
Let's train you in real time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Have you heard of Kairos University, matt Peoples,
kairos Network?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, Kairos.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
University?
Yeah, it's something to take alook at too, because does that
offer a degree of any sort, ormore like a certification?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
program?
Yeah, more of a certificationLike yeah, I'm like a redeemer
city to city incubator graduate.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, so the cool thing about Kairos University is
you could go through city tocity, but then, because it's a
competency-based theologicaleducation, a life experience, as
well as whatever learning modelor community you are in, counts
toward, respectively, fillingup your nine outcomes for a
master divinity degree.
(30:26):
So it may be something to lookand partner, because some people
like in our denomination, adegree actually matters and
internationally, a lot of timesa degree actually matters.
So, yeah, there's so many waysasynchronous models, synchronous
models, et cetera that we canoffer really, really high
quality theological formationthat works for Baibo and
co-vocational leaders, as wellas those who are going to be
(30:49):
full time in a church into thefuture.
So, so good, let's pivot alittle bit and start talking
about coaching, because you'redoing coaching and I think
there's a revolution that'sgoing on right now in terms of
the coaching space, which isdifferent than, say, being a
(31:09):
consultant.
Right, I'm going to tell youwhat to do.
Coaches come alongside, askquestions to lead toward that
individual taking their rightnext step to do whatever it is
the Lord has kind of called themto do.
So what are some of your basicconcepts in your coaching
ministry there, eric?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah.
So the I Help Pastors Get Jobshas five frameworks.
We kind of tease out these fiveframeworks to help the pastor
whenever they step their end intheir journey.
So I kind of go over those highlevel and then kind of share
how I tease those out in acoaching session.
So the first one is mindset.
Basically that's the foundation.
If you have a mindset that says,oh, I'm becoming a
(31:48):
Baibo-cational pastor or I'mmoving to the marketplace
because I'm a failure inministry, you're never going to
get a job, you're never going toshow up well in interviews,
you're never going to lead withyour best foot forward.
So we have to really kind ofuntangle, you know, the mindset
like, hey, you're doing thisbecause this is what God has
called you to, he's released youto, you're not quitting your
ministry, you're extending andexpanding your ministry.
(32:09):
And that is really a humongoushurdle for pastors, and
rightfully so.
There's so much identity thatgoes into being a pastor, tim,
as we both are well aware thatwhen people either step back to
become a part-time pastor orleave ministry altogether, it's
a lot that they're processingand dealing with.
So mindset is the first one.
Second one is discovery.
We, as pastors, we spend somuch time just playing defense,
(32:32):
responding to the needs ofpeople.
So-and-so is in the hospital.
So-and-so is upset because it'svolunteered and show up.
So-and-so is mad because wedidn't play the worship song on
Sunday.
So-and-so is passed away.
There's a million reasons whywe're constantly playing defense
and I know that in myexperience as a pastor, I didn't
spend enough very much timeasking myself how's God made
Eric Hoek?
How am I wired?
(32:53):
What fires me up?
What excites me?
What are my giftings?
What are my skills?
I spent so much time puttingout fires.
I don't even know who I am as aperson, removed from being a
helper to other people.
So we've spent a lot of time indiscovery, like how's God made
you specifically removed from apastor?
The third is rebrand.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Can we pause on discovery real quick before you
rebrand?
So do you use assessments atall, any kind of assessments
that to help with that discoveryprocess?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
So we have a four kind of jobs we recommend for
pastors to kind of explore,based on the way that God has
wired them.
They are learning anddevelopment, project management,
sales or nonprofits.
We call it the heart, head,hands, feet framework.
I would kind of ask like, okay,are you like a empathetic,
caring person?
Do you love hospital visits andsitting with the sick visiting
(33:43):
shut-ins?
Heart you probably should lookat.
Not for profit you probablywould not enjoy going to a sales
job somewhere because you havea huge compassion at heart.
Head I used to read.
Role academic Do you lovelearning?
Do you love reading?
Do you love teaching?
Consider a job and learningdevelopment.
That's how I cut my teeth into,into co-vocational ministry and
work-in-place work is I became alearning development coach.
(34:06):
The last one is hands.
The second or third one ishands project management.
You're like tinkering withthings, you're like fixing
things, you're like managingmultiple demands.
That's how you're wired.
You're like being a high octaneleadership role.
Project management should be agreat path to pursue.
And the last one is the feet.
You like movement, you likechasing things down.
You don't mind knocking ondoors.
(34:27):
Get into sales.
We have pastors.
It's pretty phenomenal, tim.
We have one guy in New Orleanschurch planter got into a
softwares of service, saas sales.
He texted me that he was goingto make $21,000 in the month of
December and I'm like, I thinkyou mean like the last quarter
right, like you know, like lastthree months, like no, like in
one month I'm going to make$20,000.
I was like, oh shoot, is yourcompany hiring?
(34:49):
Like it's like, and he was, youknow, a church planter making
maybe $50,000 three or fourmonths prior and he kept his
church as well.
He's doing both.
So that's sort of theassessment that we use for
discovery How's God wired youbased on these kind of full jobs
and then within them ordifferent avenues you can
explore.
So that's that yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That's spectacular.
I love that framework.
So continue on the third thingyou do you help pastors rebrand.
A lot of times in the church, alot of times in the church,
eric Brand is seen as a bad word.
Right A church is brand or apersonal brand.
So how do you even help workthrough that reconcept of a
brand?
I wonder if you've ever had anypushback about brand connected
(35:31):
to church.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, of course I have, because you know how we
pastors are.
We can be stubborn when itcomes to stuff like that.
But I oftentimes say like,listen, it's not a matter of
trying to sell yourself, it's amatter of positioning yourself
in the best possible light.
And if you I don't know, let'sjust say you're in the mood for
tacos, by taking to a burgerplace You'd be like well, eric,
I said I wanted tacos, why arewe at a burger place?
(35:53):
I said I don't know, burgersand tacos are both food.
Let's just go get burgersinstead, but I wanted tacos,
right?
So if you give a ministry resume, churchy answers everything's
through the lens of being apastor and not kind of
rebranding yourself to be a tacoinstead of a hamburger.
No matter how tasty you mightbe, so to speak, you're never
going to secure the job because,like, we're trying to hire a
(36:15):
person that does this, not aperson that does that.
So that's the whole rebrandpillar in the framework.
The fourth one is the interview.
Kind of, as I shared earlier, achurch interview and a
corporate interview areradically different in many
different ways.
I think the easiest way to kindof untangle all that is that in
a church interview.
They're really looking forhumility, which is good.
(36:36):
You would want your pastor tobe someone who's humble.
But in a corporate interview, amarketplace interview, they
want confidence.
They want someone that can walkin there and say, like I can do
this job, I have the ability todo so.
So we really help pastorsuntangle that.
What is the let's let's?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
yeah, let's pause there.
What is that about churchculture that I think is
imbalanced toward humility, andhumility maybe being more the
personality, because you can behumble and confident at the at
the same time, you know who youare in Christ and then you speak
out of that clarity, thatconfidence of of self, your
identity in Jesus, and and Ithink, yeah, just just talk
(37:16):
through.
So I'm.
I'm at a church that wanted TimOman to to step in to lead.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I didn't have to put on aveneer, put on a mask, to come
in and take this like low placeof great men.
You know I came in and myinterview process I've been here
10 years now, dude, so it'shard for me to even like get my
mind wrapped around the headhoney and approach that Christ
(37:39):
Greenfield actually utilized togo after me as an associate
pastor in Denver, coming downhere to to Phoenix.
It was definitely much more.
I think it was atypical is whatI'm trying to get after to how
most churches kind of kind of doit.
So talk about that, that needfor the humble kind of lowly
pastor and and how that is againso much different than kind of
(38:00):
the way the secular world doesit.
Cause I think the church hassomething to learn here as it
relates to to that first articlereality in our secular world Go
ahead.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, man, it's.
It's funny.
It's like we want, like a lotof churches will say, we want a
visionary leader that bringschange, as long as it impact my
life, right, and I think a lotof churches like they stay small
and they stay stagnant becausethey, they, they, they, they
psychologically want things tochange.
They want new families to come,they want baptisms, they want
(38:29):
growth, they want salvation,they want all the things that we
celebrate as churches, but aslong as it it convenes them or
cause their life any pain orstress, and they can have their
church exactly how they'vealways liked it for the past,
however long years.
I think that this is probablymore of a challenge in smaller
churches, stagnant churches,churches that aren't looking to
innovate and change and grow,which are most, you know, most
(38:51):
churches that I've experiencedand most pastors I work with
they're coming from context thatsays, hey, I was at this, 150
year old, you know congregation.
They just want these kinds ofthings to be the same.
They just want someone to pushthe buttons and, you know, reach
sermons and visit us in thehospital and that was it.
So I think that kind ofhumility like, yes, I'll come
and I'll be an Euro beatingserver and just give me a tie so
I can feed my family is wherethat comes from.
(39:13):
And you're right In themarketplace.
They're assessing you on yourcompetencies, on your skills.
What have we done?
That's similar to what you'llbe doing here, because hiring is
all about risk fundamentallyright, and we want to mitigate
our risk as much as possible tomake sure we're hiring the right
person, and that's why we wantto you know, really fact check
is this the right person for thejob?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
So so good man.
Anything else as it relates towhat you work folks through.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, the last one, sustainability and I think this
is one that gets kind ofoverlooked is like what's your
relationship with your churchgoing to be now that you're
bivocational or co vocational?
Because if you keep doingeverything we did as a full time
pastor while having a full timejob, you're going to burn out
about three to six months andyou're going to hurl up people
in the week.
So to start thinking now, whatdo I need to change and adjust
(40:01):
and kind of massage to make thissustainable for the long term?
Who do I need to raise up?
Who do I need to train?
Who ready to fill in the gapsthat I can't do anymore?
One of the things that I didthat was smart.
In my journey as a churchplanters, I always had a cov, I
was always a co pastor withanother bivocational pastor and
he and I could tag teampreaching.
We could.
We could each take vacations inthe summer, we could each take
(40:22):
a sabbatical after five yearsbecause we had each other.
And that was massive becausesometimes he had it in him to do
something for the church that Ididn't, and vice versa.
It also was a huge benefitbecause I had a traditional
eight to five job in LowerManhattan and he was a bartender
.
So I was kind of like the dayshift pastor and he was kind of
night shift pastor, so it workedout pretty well.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
You look at the Bible and they did things together.
I mean the easy stories, lukenine and then Luke 10, the
sending of the 12 and then the70 sent out two by two, and I
think we've overlooked that.
As it relates to leadershipwithin the church, how we need
to have a partner pastor.
I don't, I'm the lead senior.
(41:04):
Blah blah blah we don't reallyuse that language.
I've got a partner pastor nowwho is a pastor for me and has
stepped in.
He's newer on our team, hasstepped in here the last year
and we go back about a decadenow as friends and it's really
fun to do life in ministry withfriends and I just feel so bad I
(41:27):
mean truly man for guys,whether you're full time or co
or bi vocational guys that justfeel like man.
I'm all.
I'm all alone here and Sunday'scoming and I got to preach and
then you know.
And then, if you throw in, I gotan eight to five job.
I can just see how that wouldget just over overwhelming.
Anything more to say about theneed to do it with other people,
(41:49):
not for other people, eric.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, man, I would just say the best advice is that
if you are seriously exploringthis path of being co vocational
and you don't have someone todo it with, you should wait.
I would not advise any pastorto say I'm just going to
continue being a solo pastorwhile working a full time job.
That's just a recipe fordisaster, because it is so.
Like you said, Tim, it can beso frustrating, so exhausting,
(42:13):
so many demands on my time andmy energy.
I don't have anyone to lean on.
When you have that one personor that team of people that you
can count on and you're alltogether, working together, it
makes, like I said earlier inthe interview, a lot more fun, a
lot more enjoyable to doministry that way.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Hmm, I totally agree.
So let folks under the hood.
What a normal week for aCovocational pastor.
Looks like Sunday showing upand you're gonna do your thing
then.
But how do you help them findthat that balance that you're
talking about, as theytransition into this kind of new
world?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah, yeah, man.
Well, the first thing is isthat you know, balances an
illusion, because I like neverperfectly balance everything.
So, in addition to being acovocational pastor for seven
years of the pastor here in theBronx and then, I've also have
three children Under five.
So they were all born afterchurch was planted and I'm sure
your listeners are well awareNew York City is not a place
(43:06):
where people you know Work andyou know go out for two hour
long lunches and hit the golfclub on Thursday afternoon and
go to happy hour for three hours.
It's a pretty intense place tolive and to work.
So one of the things I oftencoach passers through is
wherever you are, just be fullythere.
If you're at work, just work.
If you're at church doingchurch stuff, be it, be a church
doing church stuff.
(43:27):
If you're with your kids, or ifyour wife, your husband, be
with your what, your kids, yourwife, your husband, just be
fully present.
Because it's so easy to getpulled in every sort of
direction and I try to do thingslike oh, from one to three, I'm
gonna do this.
From two to five, I'm gonna dothat Whatever, the only thing I
can say is that you know, it'seasy to paint a rosy picture of
covocational ministry.
(43:48):
You know having you know thisday job plus leading your church
.
But all that pastors in on alittle secret under the hood
that for the first two years,and being a bivocational
covocational pastor, I would getup at five o'clock every single
morning to do church stuff andnow go to work from nine to five
.
That was my life.
So that's right.
To make those kind ofsacrifices I definitely would
(44:10):
not recommend.
This is not for the faint ofheart.
Don't do that forever because Idon't think I could have, but I
did that for a good season inmy life hmm, are there stories
of covocational, like teamchurch where they're just
Growing like nobody's businessand they're not really paying
anybody?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
or maybe your part-time salary, etc.
Do you have some stories ofchurches that folks could look
up and say, wow, here's.
Here's a model to follow.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, there's two places I would recommend.
The first is about the WesternUnited States examples.
I'm sure you have aninternational audience, but here
in the US the Tampa Undergroundis a great one to look up.
They're fantastic that theyhave a whole, they have books
and they have a lot of, you know, like market, like materials
and assets you can look at andstudy.
One is a little bit smaller, iscalled the Korea Collective.
(44:55):
They're based out ofPennsylvania.
They're doing a really fabulouswork as well, very similar to
Tampa Underground, and one ofthe things that's cool about
both of these groups Is that, asa decentralized model, right so
you might have a traditionalSunday morning church where
people gather around and listento some certain listen to some
songs in the sermon.
But we also have a ministrythat's to.
You know, bikers may have aministry.
(45:18):
They have one ministry in inKorea collective that literally
their whole ministry is going todifferent Renaissance fairs All
summer and ministering peoplein the Renaissance fair
community.
They have a.
They have a nail salonChristian-owned, and employees,
you know young girls and trainsthem on how to do, you know,
nails, and this nail salon brokea whole sex trafficking ring In
(45:41):
the state because they wereministering to these girls and
hearing their stories.
It's like stuff like that, Ithink, is really really cool,
and I mean mine is up stories ofmicrocosm of both of those.
But you know, all saints church, you know, in our seven years
of existence Planted a church,another church in the Bronx with
a bilingual Spanish-speakingpastor, and another church in
East New York, brooklyn, with aTrinidadian pastor, and so three
(46:04):
different congregations kind ofsprung up, all of which
co-locational leaders, allExpressions of community and
faith that didn't exist prior.
All because of the ability justto say, hey, you don't need
half a million dollars in aseminary degree to start a
church, you need a few peoplewho can go on mission together.
Are these like a large,glamorous, exciting churches?
Not really.
I might be 25 people on aSunday morning, but I'll say it
(46:25):
was 25 people that weren'tgathering there before.
I think God rejoices in that.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Amen.
This is the future and the andthe present right now, and I
pray people really, really takethat to heart.
Let's close with a theologicalquestion how?
How is discipleship andevangelism connected?
Because I think a lot of timesthey get bivurated right, but
you planted a church, thatplanted a church.
(46:52):
It was born pregnant, you know,and I bet that was in the the
plan.
Well, the Holy Spirit's plan,sure, from from the jump right.
So yeah, talk aboutdiscipleship and evangelism and
the interconnection there.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, so I'll share two stories and then thank you
again for your time today.
Tim, this was a lot of fun.
I'm right back at you.
The first story is that when Iwas being mentored to plant my
own church, my mentors a pastornamed rich, and he told me one
time If you get hit by a bus,right right, I run my bicycle
around New York City everysingle day, so it's very likely,
if you get by a bus, who'sgonna take over your church?
(47:25):
And I said I have no idea.
Well, you got to figure thatout because it can't be.
The Eric Koch show has to be,you know, jesus show.
So you have to figure out nowwho are you being kind of
disciple?
Who are you gonna train?
Who can develop?
If God forbid, somethinghappens to you?
The church continues and that'ssomething I think all pastors
should consider, whether theybike around New York City or not
(47:45):
Is that, is this ministry gonnadie with me?
So that that's a problem and Ishould take this very seriously.
So kind of begin thinking now,who's the people in my life that
I can begin developing?
I think that's the first story.
Second story man Missdiscipleship and evangelism.
One of my neighbors in my part.
I live in a five-storyapartment building in the Bronx.
One of my neighbors asked me inthe mail room Eric, are you a
(48:10):
member of the clergy class?
Yeah, sure you could say thathe's like okay, do you mind if
you and I sit down and talkabout something I'm going
through?
I'm sure so.
A few weeks later I went to hisapartment who drinks themselves
for water?
And this guy just spilled hislife story to me good, bad and
ugly, you know.
Tears were shed, we prayedtogether and this guy will
(48:32):
probably never walk into achurch because just that's not
part of his life.
But he knew enough to know thatthere's a person in ministry
who loves Jesus, who lives in mybuilding I can talk to, and
he's not the only person thatI've had those conversations
with in my neighborhood, which Ithink is really cool.
I think when pastors andministry folks remove the
mentality that ministry onlyhappens in the four walls of the
(48:52):
church, it opens theopportunity for God to work in
our lives money through Sunday,and I think that's a really
powerful thing.
So what's the line betweendiscipleship and evangelism?
I mean, what was happening?
What was happening in thatguy's apartment when he was
praying and Crying because ofthe sins that he's dealing with
and hearing about Christ.
I would say it was both.
It was totally evangelism anddiscipleship.
(49:13):
So how do you entangle thosetwo?
I don't know, but I'm open tolistening and learning, but for
now I'm just gonna try to livewith people and serve them the
best I can.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, you're.
You're pastoring your community, yeah right.
And we need more of thebaptized folks who say I'm the
everyday Christian Pastoringtheir, their neighborhood.
That's right.
There'd be a renaissance towardthat, in that direction.
Man, that's what I'm prayingfor and this has been so much
fun.
Eric, I love your heart.
You have blessed our listenerstoday immensely.
(49:44):
If we got I help pastors getjobs calm.
You can hit Eric up there ifhis services could be of help to
you and your email.
Would you mind giving that outas well, eric?
Speaker 3 (49:55):
No not all, it's just my name here.
I see at I help pastors getjobs calm, and then also, if you
download the free PDF on thewebsite, that'll kind of trigger
you into a mailing list, so wecan engage that way as well.
You also can follow me onTwitter.
Up my name, eric oak.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Eric oak, the one and the only Jesus is using you in
a mighty way.
Man and I am better for ourtime today.
Sharing is caring.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is You're taking
this in, whether it's on YouTube, spotify, itunes, wherever it
is.
I'm a Spotify guy.
Where do you take in podcast,eric?
Spotify, man, only Spotify.
Yeah, only Spotify, onlySpotify.
So this is growing.
This is a podcast the nightleadership, collective, united
(50:32):
leadership org.
If we can help you in any way,it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, eric.
Appreciate it, man.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Thanks Tim.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I pray that you're leaninginto growing today that the
right hand side of your brain,the relational connection, the
joy of Jesus, the hesed lovethat comes from knowing you are
unconditionally loved by the Godof the universe, by grace,
through faith in Jesus Christ,you've been connected to the
(00:58):
greatest mission of all time,which is making him known in
word and deed.
Today you're in for a treat.
We have a brand new friend ofmine who was connected to me by
Matt Peoples.
Shout out to Matt Peoples he'sbeen on American Reformation a
number of times and this isPastor Eric Hoek.
Now I got to tell you a littlebit about Eric before we get in.
He's a decade long churchplanner in the Bronx and he has
(01:22):
this ministry.
That is unbelievable.
If you've been connected to theKnight Leadership Collective for
any number of months or years,you know that we have a strong
desire to see more bivocationalleaders raised up within local
congregations.
A lot of times, the mechanismsor the pathways for recognizing
the need for bivocationalministry from house churches to
(01:44):
maybe smaller churches, themechanisms in the Lutheran
Church of Missouri Synod are notnecessarily there.
So one of our missions is tohighlight the need for
bivocational ministers, and Erichas an amazing ministry that he
started out as kind of a sidegig with three to four pastors
and over the last number ofyears it's grown to serving 20
(02:05):
to 40 bivocational pastors atany time.
So welcome, eric, and share alittle bit more of your ministry
story.
And before you do that standardquestion how are you praying
for Reformation in the AmericanChristian Church?
Thanks for hanging with metoday, eric.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Thank you so much, tim.
And the way that I'm prayingfor Reformation in the American
Church is as you said, that'sfor the last 10 years in the
South Bronx in New York City.
New York City is an amazing,complicated place to live and do
ministry.
One of the things that'scomplicated and amazing is that
it's a post-Christian city.
So I mean you have immigrantchurches and you have that
(02:44):
coming in which helps keep thescaffolding clear for the faith
of New Yorkers, but at baselinethere's no social capital to go
to church in New York City.
You don't talk to yourcoworkers about what your
preacher talked about on Sundays.
That's just not part of theculture and one of the things
that's a, you know, unintendedconsequence, but a benefit of
(03:04):
that is that Christians are nottribal.
So I have three children five,three and one.
My five-year-old, lydia hasbeen to every sort of church you
can imagine from.
You know, yesterday we went toan all-black menacoste church to
support a friend of mine whoplanted a church up in Yonkers,
new York.
Shout out to Pastor Kevin.
So they've been to experienceslike that.
They've been to Episcopal andCatholic and Anglican churches,
(03:27):
they've been to Methodist andBaptist and Presbyterian
churches and everything inbetween, and to my five-year-old
and my other daughters as wellchurch is just church and God's
people are just God's people andI love that innocence in them.
But they don't have and they'restill kids, of course, but they
don't have that sense of like.
Oh well, they're not the trueChristians or the real
Christians or the spiritualChristians like we are.
(03:47):
So I'm praying that more peoplecan be like my five-year-old
and they can just say, hey,we're all God's people, we're
all figured out.
We all might have slightlydifferent expressions of what
that means, but if Jesus is Lord, we can all agree to that, that
creed and doctrine.
We're all on the same team,baby, so let's make it happen.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It appears as if Jesus said something about that.
Eric, yeah, If you do notreceive the King, we got like a
little child you'll never enterit.
Yeah, I can say more.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, man.
I mean one of the things that Ido.
I come from kind of the Baptistevangelical world, but for the
past three years I've been goingto a Benedictine monastery for
retreat.
Every year for my birthday inthe end of March, which is in
upstate New York, I'm out savingyour monastery for those who
are interested.
And it's funny because lasttime I went I went with my
executive pastor, eleazar, orboth like young pastors I'm in
(04:35):
my 30s, he's in his late 20s,early 30s at the time and for
some reason the monks thought wewere both priests and all
weekend just retreating as likepriests.
And we told them no, we're notpriests, we're both evangelical
pastors.
And not like they were mad oroffended, we never lied to them,
we just assumed we were priests.
Mostly priests go there, butjust two single guys.
(04:56):
And then the one monk, brotherBruno, who's probably 70 years
old, was like, oh, it's okay, weall worship the same God.
I was like yeah, fair point,brother Bruno.
God, you're right.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
True.
Yeah, I mean, as you see theworld going the way that we're
and this is just from thebeginning of our rebellion the
world has been decelerating awayfrom the promises of God and
the more we kind of see this.
And obviously I wrote a I'mpreaching this upcoming week on
the impact of technology.
So much to say there.
(05:27):
Do you think technology hasincreased our tribalism Is like
social media.
You can like find in ourdenomination Luther Church,
missouri Synod, a conservativeconfessing his story.
You know, really our roots goback to the Catholic church and
then obviously through the storyof the Reformation 500 years
ago.
But I don't think.
I don't think social media andtechnology in general has
(05:50):
increased our unity capital, ourjoy capital as the church.
Anything to say there.
I think it's increasedtribalism.
Go ahead, eric.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean 100%.
It's not a Christian show atall, but Netflix has a series
called Black Mirror and in themost recent season there's an
episode of here which we'regoing to call it.
It's called Someone is theWorst and basically the premise
of the shows have followed himaround showing all the bad parts
of her life as like a Netflixshow, and one of the interesting
(06:19):
narratives in that storylinewas we try to make it positive.
It was like so it's always likethe negative thing she did, but
like expanded.
And I said well, when we'redoing market research, we try to
make it positive, like painther in the best light possible.
But I think as many reviews oras many clicks, as many eyeballs
, people want to see thedumpster fires and I can
certainly attest that I've beenguilty of that in my own life as
(06:41):
well.
I mean, I opened Twitter andit's a dumpster fire and that's
just.
But you feel like you're suckedinto it.
I just got a vacation last week.
I was visiting the Polkino'swith my parents and was off any
social media for the wholeentire week and, believe it or
not, 10 miles happier and morefulfilled and more joyful and
more patient and more loving andall the things that Jesus calls
(07:02):
us to be.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
You just got to call it out, man.
You know we are, we are notaccelerating in terms of our
character and we're notconnected to one another.
It's false connection, like Iwant to be.
I want to be where the peopleare.
I want to be like with realpeople in real time, talking
about, you know, real stuffgoing on in our real lives, the
(07:25):
ups and downs of our lives, andit's just.
It's just a fake in the bad.
Some people can find connectionand I.
It has some benefit, I guess.
But talk about the church andthe role of the church providing
that has said that lovingcommunity connection.
This is, this is where thechurch is, where people are
gathered to hear his word andthen to live out his word in
(07:48):
real time, in real contexts,with folks walking through the
ups and downs.
So talk about this set, thatneed for close connection, and
then weave that, if you would,into into your bivocational
ministry story.
If you would, eric, awesome.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah, man.
Thank you so much, gosh.
Where to start?
Well, I guess I'll.
I guess I'll start with thisangle and then we'll kind of
unpack from here.
But you know, covid-19, I feellike experience for the
collective world.
It was like a before COVID,after COVID life, and before
COVID, I think, in my faithcommunity I realized that people
(08:26):
didn't come to church much tomy.
You know, bruce Diego, theyhear me preach.
They came to church becausethey wanted to see their friends
, they wanted to be in community, they want to go out for lunch,
they want to share their upsand downs with somebody.
And then, you know, when COVIDcame, new York City locked down,
probably tighter than anywhereelse in the country did.
So we couldn't have a service,and there was not just
(08:48):
restrictions, it was alsobecause of what we meet and what
have you.
We couldn't have an actualphysical service for 20 months.
Everything was digital, on Zoom, and it was just.
Of course it wasn't the same.
Nobody would say it was thesame, but it was really an
apparent thing to me living in aplace like New York City, that
somebody wants a high productionshow, they can go to Broadway
(09:09):
and they can see the bestproduction in the world, quite
literally.
But they don't come to churchfor that.
They come to church becausetheir friends are there, their
family is there, people who knowthem and love them and care
about them are there.
And you know this quote by TimKeller and you know Tim Keller's
who, how many of me and thatpeople's met and he says if
you're a small church pastor,they let you preach because you
(09:31):
pastor them right, and if you'rea big church pastor, they let
you pastor them because youpreach to them.
So I found, if church isnothing more than just the
disseminating information fromthe stage, you can do that from
home, and if someone better thanyou online, I can do that as
well.
But when you actually havesomeone who loves and cares and
is on mission with you, thatmakes the world of the
(09:51):
difference.
So me, as a bivocational guy, Icould stay in for my
congregation on a Sunday and say, listen, I get it.
Tomorrow I have my you know,quarterly review with my manager
.
I miss some of my goals and myKPI.
I'm really stressed out.
I don't know how it's going togo.
So please pray for me as I gothrough that.
And the person sitting therecan say, oh yeah, I get that too
(10:13):
.
I've had, you know, thepressure of not performing at
the highest level at my job andbeing concerned about my job
security as well.
It just makes you a lot morerelatable, because you're on
mission with people every singleday, monday through Saturday
and then on Sundays.
When you come together, youfellowship, you enjoy, you give
life to each other, you hear theword of God, you take the
elements.
All that good stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
That's awesome, bro.
I think the future of, andmaybe the present actually, just
given the demographics of theAmerican Christian church, is
going to be smaller rather thanlarger, more small pockets, what
we think of as small groups inour context.
I'm privileged to pastor in ourdenomination, a mega church.
(10:55):
We worship 800 people, 1,000seasonal right.
But I totally agree with that.
They're letting me preachbecause I'm a pastor here,
because in the big scheme ofthings that's not, you know, and
I'm a passionate guy.
I loved it.
But I realize that the primarybenefit is the courtyard time
(11:15):
afterwards and the group's goingout to get coffee or lunch
afterwards.
So I think the future and thenwe've got a couple other smaller
, smaller multi sites, you know,worshiping 80 people or so, and
I think that's going to be alittle bit more of the standard.
So would you go into thenecessity for bivocational?
Because in our context we'vegot a lot of bivocational
(11:37):
students.
Some of them in time will beordained as pastors, god willing
.
So yeah, what's yourperspective on the necessity of
bivocational ministry today?
Eric?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah, I think I have a unique vantage point because I
think, culturally, what happensin places like New York and LA
San Francisco, these are kind ofcanaries in the coal mine.
Culturally, originally fromPennsylvania, I was actually in
Pennsylvania this past week,application, like I said, I was
driving to one of the waterparks with our kids.
I commented to my wife.
I said I can't believe how manylike mega churches there are.
(12:10):
I mean, I mean mega, but like500 North, you know churches
like big churches, large parkinglots, big signage, all the
fancy stuff, and such a ruralpart of the country like where
do all the people draw from?
This is insane, whereas incities it's the opposite.
You have these high risebuildings, you have these, you
know, 30, 40 story low incomehousing projects and when I was
(12:31):
doing my kind of market researchto prepare for planting all
saints church in 2017, I hadrealized the largest
non-catholic church on this lotof Hispanics in my community, so
Catholics, catholicism is thelargest you know denomination,
largest non-catholic, soevangelical church was 75 adults
and this is in a zip code of50,000 people and there's a
(12:54):
million and one reason for that.
But the biggest one, I think,is obviously space.
It's hard to come by space thatpeople at churches can afford,
based on the ties and offeringsof a congregation.
And then the second one is thetransients.
People come and go in a placelike New York very often.
When I was a youth pastor in NewJersey before planting my own
church, I went back there like ayear ago.
(13:16):
I had not been there in over adecade and the church was like
95% the same people, whereas youknow my church plant in the
Bronx.
It was basically a newcongregation every three years,
not because people got offendedat me even though some of them
did but most of it was justbecause I'm moving.
My job has changed.
I'm going to a different partof the state or the city.
What have you?
(13:37):
So, with that being said, I meanI don't know the exact numbers,
but I want to say, like theaverage size church in all of
America, not just the inner city, is less than 50 people and I
mean that's not a, you know, nota massive group of people.
That's what?
A dozen families or so.
So to expect that those dozenfamilies to fund you as a pastor
, especially if you have a wifeand you have children, their
(13:58):
medical bills, what have you.
It's just really a challengingthing to do and I think a lot of
pastors are kind of waking upand realizing wait a second, if
I'm a you know, 30 year old or40 year old and I've got a young
family and I'm making below theminimum wage a bus driver in my
school district makes moremoney than I do as a pastor this
(14:18):
kind of sucks.
I have no benefits.
I can't keep doing this and Iwant to find a different path.
So I'm sorry if I can't saythis kind of sucks in your
podcast, but I just didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, yeah, it's fine.
All right, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I've been approved.
Okay, just avoid the otherletters, right.
But you know, I think that alot of pastors are realizing in
2023, hey, it's not 1980 anymoreI can't go, you know, work at a
church of 200, 300 people andmake a middle class life.
It's just not reallysustainable.
So I help pastors get jobs as aministry and, by God's grace,
(14:50):
we help pastors with ministrysustainability without money
stress, and we do that through aco-vocational model.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So say more I use bi vocational, use co vocational.
Talk about the differencebetween bi and co.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, the easiest way to describe it in so many words
is bi vocational is I workbecause I have to.
So I am a pastor of a church.
My church is small Maybe it's achurch startup.
We can't afford for me to havea full-time salary.
So I'm going to go be asubstitute teacher, I'm going to
go be a barista at Starbucks,I'm going to go do X, y and Z
and once my church gets bigenough, then I'm going to quit
(15:26):
this day job and be a full-timepastor.
I'm bi vocational, covocational is I work because I
want to and I view my job as anextension of my everyday
ministry.
And even if the church couldafford to pay me tomorrow, I
would still keep my job becausethis is part of my ministry.
So I would have self-identifiedas a co-vocational pastor.
So even if my church was ableto pay me my salary tomorrow, I
(15:49):
still would keep my job becauseit's an opportunity for me to
minister money through Fridayand it also frees me up to equip
the saints to do the work ofthe ministry.
I was a full-time pastor forfive years.
I enjoyed it.
There's certainly benefits toit.
By the same time, there is thatpressure that, oh, I'm the one
who's paid to be here, and I'mthe one that's paid to do this.
So I found it personally not ifone does harder to delegate,
(16:12):
harder to give away, harder toempower, harder to equip the
saints to do the work of theministry as we're called to do
Fijians 412, as a co-vocationalor bi vocational pastor, you
kind of have to.
You don't have much of a choice.
You got limited time, energyand bandwidth, so it's more of a
team approach to doing theministry, which is something I
found to be very beneficial andalso a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Eric, that makes so much sense.
Man and we've walked alongsidea lot of pastors and in our
denomination, like I've said,co-vocational even bi vocational
is not something we talk aboutan awful lot.
You've gone through four yearsof undergrad, likely, and then
maybe four years of seminary.
You may have a little bit ofdebt if you've gone in with a
(16:57):
family.
I mean, you've made maybe somemajor life sacrifices to go
residential seminary and so youkind of come out.
We're like, hey, I'll put inall this time.
I'm entitled, if you will, to ina sense to this kind of
full-time role and then you knowif you don't have people on a
board or a group of elders orpartners.
You know it's really easy tomove into the doer rather than
(17:20):
the developer mindset and I'venever really wrapped my head as
much around the economicalreality and this kind of while
you're being paid to do it andhow much of a struggle I guess I
have, but just how much of astruggle that is to make that
shift from doer to developer.
But for a co-vocational guy orgal, it's just in your blood.
It has to happen right.
(17:41):
And as I think of a number ofthe folks that are co-vocational
here, and thank you for thedefinition because I'll switch
some of my language, because wehave way more co-vocational
leaders than bi-vocational.
They're going to stay in themarketplace.
That's a major part of theirministry and they by nature,
develop people more naturally.
(18:02):
So I've seen it in spades man.
Anything else to add to that?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, man, I think the biggest thing is there is a
stigma in every denominationthat I'm aware of where you know
when are you going to be a realpastor, when are you going to
have a real church?
And you're not really a realpastor with a little church and
tells your full-time job.
And the thing I always want topush back against that is, If
you look at church history andeven the international church,
(18:26):
co-vocational, bi-vocational isthe norm.
Those of us who have had theprivilege to be full-time, we're
the minority and thank God thatwe have the ability to do that.
But, like you said, Tim, you'respot on.
To think you're going to go tofour years undergrad, three-year
seminary, move your family,graduate with $60,000 more in
debt and that you're just goingto waddle into a church making
(18:47):
$80,000 a year with great healthinsurance because you're right,
as a person is a little bitfoolish.
I hate to use that word, but Idon't know what else to call it.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
So you're walking through.
Get a little bit more, becausewe may have some people that
want to reach out to you.
Eric, to navigate the ministry.
Is it a name, is it just anorganic thing that's just kind
of taken off relationally?
Say more about your ministry.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, man, so the ministry is called.
I kept it really simple forpeople because we pastors we
like to make things simple.
It's called I help pastors getjobs and basically the domain I
help pastors get jobscom andessentially the way it works is
we help ministers and ministryprofessionals rebrand and
(19:33):
remessage their skills in a waythat makes sense to hiring
managers, because you can'tsubmit a resume I mean you're a
handsome guy, tim, but with your, your face and it says password
, tim, you're in top skills, thediscipleship preaching.
You can't put that in and letgo get a job at XYZ corporation.
They're going to think who inthe world is this guy Right?
So, like, what we do is we helppastors think through hey, you
(19:56):
didn't, you know, you didn'tlead Bible studies, you did
event planning, you didn'tpreach, you communicated to
stakeholders, you didn't managea board, you managed a budget
and a leadership team, things ofthat nature.
Just again, remessaging andrebranding.
And the cool thing about it isthat we have a business model.
I've always admired Louis VonAn, who's the founder of
(20:17):
Duolingo.
Louis always says I would neverwant cost to be a barrier for
someone to learn, to not learn alanguage, because there's so
many benefits to learning otherlanguages.
So I help pastors get jobs.
About 97% of the folks whoengage us don't pay a penny.
They can get our emailnewsletter.
They can get our free PDF.
We have free videos they canwatch they don't pay a penny.
(20:37):
And then it's 3% of the pastorswho decide to, you know, invest
a little bit of their of theirmoney because they really want
to make a move and they caneither do a class, a master
class, which is nine hours of mesharing kind of the best
practices to go from A to Z onhow to rebrand yourself as a
marketplace professional, and Ijoke around that it took me nine
years to figure it out.
(20:58):
I'll teach you in nine hours.
So it's a pretty good deal.
So that's like the most entrylevel, basic tier, one tier
above.
That is what I call resumerewrite, which is when a pastor
will say I really want this job,can you go ahead and make me a
resume tailored to this job.
And it's been a really amazingthing because we'll have pastors
who apply to 100 jobs, get zerocallbacks, show up for a resume
(21:19):
, apply to three jobs and getthree callbacks within a day or
two.
And it's not because there'sany magic potion in the resume.
It's just knowing how to usethe right words and the right
language that you know makessense to the person receiving it
.
And the final tier is kind ofall that the class, the resume,
a cover letter and then a coachand call with me where I sit
down with the pastor and sayhere's how you kind of dial in
(21:41):
your LinkedIn.
Let's practice some interviewquestions, let's really spend
time really getting to know eachother, figure out where your
you know weaknesses are and makethem stronger.
And interviews are a big onebecause interviewing for a
marketplace job and interviewingfor a pastoral job are worlds
apart and a lot of ways they'reactually in complete tension.
So learning how to kind ofuntangle those is really
(22:02):
critical for a pastor who wantsto transition.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Dude, I love this Like this is good.
How long have you been doingthis?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
This launched in March 2022.
So a year and a half.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't think I I'm pretty well connected.
Is anybody else doing this?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Well, here's a I haven't heard of yeah, in my I
have a day job.
So my co-vocational job is witha workforce development
organization where I train 18 to29 year olds from underserved
communities to get jobs at JPMorgan, bank of America,
salesforce, metta, what have you?
And one day the light bulb wentoff on my head.
You know what?
There's a lot of programs likethis for underserved people.
(22:39):
There's a lot of programs likethis for veterans.
But who helps pastors when theywant to change careers?
And I just you know, I called.
I called Steve Plike.
You guys have Steve Plike on onher show a few weeks ago.
I like to listen to that one.
He's a mentor of mine, a friend.
I call Brad Briscoe.
I'm not sure if you know him.
He's the director ofco-vocational ministry for North
American Mission Board, whichis my, my background.
And then I call Robert Elkin,who works for Redeemer City to
(23:01):
City, and I'm like hey man, Ihave this really crazy idea help
pastors rebrand frommarketplace professionals,
explore co-vocational ministry.
I know somebody smarter andricher and more handsome is
already doing it.
Tell me who it is so I can justreach out to them and see how I
can support them.
Brad, steve, robert were likeno, no one that I know is doing
that.
He'd be the first, and I thinkI still am the first and the
(23:23):
only person that actually justhelps pastors.
Only you know.
Rebrand, and here's how you geta marketplace job.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Eric, you're an entrepreneur, bro.
There are a few people like youwho say, because creativity is
taking two existing ideas andjust bringing them together.
You know the church is evolving, we all know.
You know, pastors, the churchwas closing and all of that Like
, let's, let's care for ourbrothers and for those who have
women in ministry.
(23:50):
Ordained women in ministry tooare yeah, it's really really
powerful.
So let's, let's dig into thetheology of co-vocational by
vocational.
You referenced scripture andeven history, some folks who
leveraged co-vocational byvocational ministry.
What are some of your primaryexamples?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah.
So I'm not going to say Paul,cause everybody says Paul, so
we'll skip over him today, tedmaker?
Yeah, kind of easy answer, butI'm going to leverage.
I'm going to talk about Lydia,who was, of course, one of
Paul's accomplices and helpersin ministry.
She was a business woman, shehad a dealer in purple cloths,
but she was also a woman whofeared God and she used her
wealth.
She posted, you know, a churchin her home and she was somebody
(24:32):
who had a lot to give inministry, though she was never,
you know, full-time pastor or invocational ministry.
She was somebody who used her,her skills and entrepreneurship,
which I'm sure came in handyfor starting the church.
She used her home inhospitality, which was massive,
and she also we could have someevidence she funded, helped fund
Paul's ministry, like she wasone of his donors, and it's
(24:53):
pretty phenomenal Think aboutthat that God used her.
Because I'm afraid in a lot ofour churches we would say to
Lydia okay, go to seminary andget ordained and go and become a
full-time pastor for God to useyou.
Actually, wait a minute.
I think God is using me, maybenot in that way, but in this
special way.
The other thing I'll share ismore of a modern example.
So after Bible college, I wentto Liberty for undergrad.
(25:15):
I spent three months in SouthAfrica and Zambia as a
missionary, and while I was inZambia I worked with the
Brethren Church, and one of theunique things about the Brethren
Church is they have, at leastin that context, all of them.
Other pastors wereco-vocational and they would
actually have four pastors, allof which had day jobs and each
(25:35):
one kind of oversee a differentdomain of ministry.
So one was the family guy, onewas the outreach guy, one was
the mercy and justice guy andone was like the finance guy.
They each took a turn preaching, one per month essentially, but
they all had their kind ofdepartments they oversaw, and it
was pretty amazing because theyhad a pretty large church, I
want to say north of 200 or 300people, but a single-page staff
(25:56):
member, but four kind ofvolunteer pastors that had teams
, who had teams, that had teams.
And I also see that here in theinner city as well, with Spanish
Pentecostal churches.
We'll see all these churchesthat have multiple pastors on
staff, all of whom are volunteer.
So you call that Novo, novocational yes, we're a
volunteer pastor, but they'reable to equip the saints, like
(26:17):
we said earlier, to kind ofmaximize ministry.
There is no solo pastor model,which I think is pretty profound
and I would probably.
What you would say is probablymore biblical as well.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, dude, I agree with you on so many things and I
know we're just getting to knowone another.
But for those of you who havelistened to this for a while,
sometimes I feel like I can pullout my hair a little bit
because of our very narrowunderstanding of what formation
looks like.
(26:48):
We even used in ourdenomination the gold standard
of seminary training asresidential and I may say, okay,
if you can, if it's the rightseason of life, I think it's
great.
But we're making a case that itshouldn't be kind of the only.
We don't have in ourdenomination an online MDIV, and
(27:08):
so we're running a test with,again out of our now I have new
language, not bivocationalco-vocational pastors in our
context and we're hoping it getsobserved with curiosity rather
than condemnation by our churchbody.
We'll see how that will go.
So, along those lines, whatshould seminary or, in your
experience, what has seminaryeducation, theological formation
(27:30):
, look like for co-vocationalpastors?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, I mean I had the traditional route, tim.
I went to a residentialseminary Naya College.
I'm grateful for that.
I think it was formative.
I also recognize I'm a personof immense privilege.
I'm a person that had the meansto upper my life and relocate
for seminary.
I had a wife who was a nursethat made a lot of money.
We didn't have any children atthe time.
So if you were to say to me now, as a man who's 36 years old
(27:56):
with three kids, hey, upper yourlife and go to seminary another
part of the country, I'd belike, yeah, that's not going to
happen.
Sorry, it's not in the cardsfor me, but at the time it did.
I think city to city, where MattPeeples and I met, is a really
good example of what trainingcan look like.
So they have a program calledthe Incubator with bivocational
pastors.
They do it for full-timepastors as well, but to cohort
(28:18):
of ministers who are serving inreal time.
So these are not people who arejust starting out.
They have a ministry.
It could be a senior pastor, itcould be a associate pastor, it
could be a church planter.
But they meet once a month,normally in the evenings, I
think.
They swap it between online andin person.
I'm not sure how they're doingit currently, but that's how
they were doing it when I wasfamiliar with them, and they'll
(28:40):
do projects, they do papers,they do readings.
They do all the things youwould imagine a seminary does.
The cool thing with them, too,is that they do it at no cost
and I'm a granite.
They're a city to city.
They're Redeemer PresbyterianChurch, they're Tim Keller.
They have a lot of money, a lotof influence, a lot of all that
stuff, but it's prettyphenomenal that they have the
ability to train pastors notjust Presbyterian pastors, not
(29:01):
just PCA church planters in NewYork City, but of every
denomination stripe you canimagine, at no cost to the
student.
And it's accessible, it'scontextual, it's in the evenings
and weekends for theco-vocational guys.
There's nothing worse thanseeing a church.
I've seen this before.
It's so funny.
They'll look at the nominationand say we love our
co-vocational planters.
(29:21):
Please join us for aco-vocational lunch on Thursday
at 12 pm.
It's like yeah, I'll be at work.
I'm not going to be at workthat long.
So I think that's a really goodexample of how you can train
co-vocational leaders.
It's kind of that more hybriddelivery model Evens and
weekends, low cost, stay in yourcontext, but let's do it while
you're on mission.
Let's have a pumpy full theoryand send you out.
(29:43):
Let's train you in real time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Have you heard of Kairos University, matt Peoples,
kairos Network?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Yeah, Kairos.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
University?
Yeah, it's something to take alook at too, because does that
offer a degree of any sort, ormore like a certification?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
program?
Yeah, more of a certificationLike yeah, I'm like a redeemer
city to city incubator graduate.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, so the cool thing about Kairos University is
you could go through city tocity, but then, because it's a
competency-based theologicaleducation, a life experience, as
well as whatever learning modelor community you are in, counts
toward, respectively, fillingup your nine outcomes for a
master divinity degree.
(30:26):
So it may be something to lookand partner, because some people
like in our denomination, adegree actually matters and
internationally, a lot of timesa degree actually matters.
So, yeah, there's so many waysasynchronous models, synchronous
models, et cetera that we canoffer really, really high
quality theological formationthat works for Baibo and
co-vocational leaders, as wellas those who are going to be
(30:49):
full time in a church into thefuture.
So, so good, let's pivot alittle bit and start talking
about coaching, because you'redoing coaching and I think
there's a revolution that'sgoing on right now in terms of
the coaching space, which isdifferent than, say, being a
(31:09):
consultant.
Right, I'm going to tell youwhat to do.
Coaches come alongside, askquestions to lead toward that
individual taking their rightnext step to do whatever it is
the Lord has kind of called themto do.
So what are some of your basicconcepts in your coaching
ministry there, eric?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah.
So the I Help Pastors Get Jobshas five frameworks.
We kind of tease out these fiveframeworks to help the pastor
whenever they step their end intheir journey.
So I kind of go over those highlevel and then kind of share
how I tease those out in acoaching session.
So the first one is mindset.
Basically that's the foundation.
If you have a mindset that says,oh, I'm becoming a
(31:48):
Baibo-cational pastor or I'mmoving to the marketplace
because I'm a failure inministry, you're never going to
get a job, you're never going toshow up well in interviews,
you're never going to lead withyour best foot forward.
So we have to really kind ofuntangle, you know, the mindset
like, hey, you're doing thisbecause this is what God has
called you to, he's released youto, you're not quitting your
ministry, you're extending andexpanding your ministry.
(32:09):
And that is really a humongoushurdle for pastors, and
rightfully so.
There's so much identity thatgoes into being a pastor, tim,
as we both are well aware thatwhen people either step back to
become a part-time pastor orleave ministry altogether, it's
a lot that they're processingand dealing with.
So mindset is the first one.
Second one is discovery.
We, as pastors, we spend somuch time just playing defense,
(32:32):
responding to the needs ofpeople.
So-and-so is in the hospital.
So-and-so is upset because it'svolunteered and show up.
So-and-so is mad because wedidn't play the worship song on
Sunday.
So-and-so is passed away.
There's a million reasons whywe're constantly playing defense
and I know that in myexperience as a pastor, I didn't
spend enough very much timeasking myself how's God made
Eric Hoek?
How am I wired?
(32:53):
What fires me up?
What excites me?
What are my giftings?
What are my skills?
I spent so much time puttingout fires.
I don't even know who I am as aperson, removed from being a
helper to other people.
So we've spent a lot of time indiscovery, like how's God made
you specifically removed from apastor?
The third is rebrand.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Can we pause on discovery real quick before you
rebrand?
So do you use assessments atall, any kind of assessments
that to help with that discoveryprocess?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
So we have a four kind of jobs we recommend for
pastors to kind of explore,based on the way that God has
wired them.
They are learning anddevelopment, project management,
sales or nonprofits.
We call it the heart, head,hands, feet framework.
I would kind of ask like, okay,are you like a empathetic,
caring person?
Do you love hospital visits andsitting with the sick visiting
(33:43):
shut-ins?
Heart you probably should lookat.
Not for profit you probablywould not enjoy going to a sales
job somewhere because you havea huge compassion at heart.
Head I used to read.
Role academic Do you lovelearning?
Do you love reading?
Do you love teaching?
Consider a job and learningdevelopment.
That's how I cut my teeth into,into co-vocational ministry and
work-in-place work is I became alearning development coach.
(34:06):
The last one is hands.
The second or third one ishands project management.
You're like tinkering withthings, you're like fixing
things, you're like managingmultiple demands.
That's how you're wired.
You're like being a high octaneleadership role.
Project management should be agreat path to pursue.
And the last one is the feet.
You like movement, you likechasing things down.
You don't mind knocking ondoors.
(34:27):
Get into sales.
We have pastors.
It's pretty phenomenal, tim.
We have one guy in New Orleanschurch planter got into a
softwares of service, saas sales.
He texted me that he was goingto make $21,000 in the month of
December and I'm like, I thinkyou mean like the last quarter
right, like you know, like lastthree months, like no, like in
one month I'm going to make$20,000.
I was like, oh shoot, is yourcompany hiring?
(34:49):
Like it's like, and he was, youknow, a church planter making
maybe $50,000 three or fourmonths prior and he kept his
church as well.
He's doing both.
So that's sort of theassessment that we use for
discovery How's God wired youbased on these kind of full jobs
and then within them ordifferent avenues you can
explore.
So that's that yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That's spectacular.
I love that framework.
So continue on the third thingyou do you help pastors rebrand.
A lot of times in the church, alot of times in the church,
eric Brand is seen as a bad word.
Right A church is brand or apersonal brand.
So how do you even help workthrough that reconcept of a
brand?
I wonder if you've ever had anypushback about brand connected
(35:31):
to church.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, of course I have, because you know how we
pastors are.
We can be stubborn when itcomes to stuff like that.
But I oftentimes say like,listen, it's not a matter of
trying to sell yourself, it's amatter of positioning yourself
in the best possible light.
And if you I don't know, let'sjust say you're in the mood for
tacos, by taking to a burgerplace You'd be like well, eric,
I said I wanted tacos, why arewe at a burger place?
(35:53):
I said I don't know, burgersand tacos are both food.
Let's just go get burgersinstead, but I wanted tacos,
right?
So if you give a ministry resume, churchy answers everything's
through the lens of being apastor and not kind of
rebranding yourself to be a tacoinstead of a hamburger.
No matter how tasty you mightbe, so to speak, you're never
going to secure the job because,like, we're trying to hire a
(36:15):
person that does this, not aperson that does that.
So that's the whole rebrandpillar in the framework.
The fourth one is the interview.
Kind of, as I shared earlier, achurch interview and a
corporate interview areradically different in many
different ways.
I think the easiest way to kindof untangle all that is that in
a church interview.
They're really looking forhumility, which is good.
(36:36):
You would want your pastor tobe someone who's humble.
But in a corporate interview, amarketplace interview, they
want confidence.
They want someone that can walkin there and say, like I can do
this job, I have the ability todo so.
So we really help pastorsuntangle that.
What is the let's let's?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
yeah, let's pause there.
What is that about churchculture that I think is
imbalanced toward humility, andhumility maybe being more the
personality, because you can behumble and confident at the at
the same time, you know who youare in Christ and then you speak
out of that clarity, thatconfidence of of self, your
identity in Jesus, and and Ithink, yeah, just just talk
(37:16):
through.
So I'm.
I'm at a church that wanted TimOman to to step in to lead.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I didn't have to put on aveneer, put on a mask, to come
in and take this like low placeof great men.
You know I came in and myinterview process I've been here
10 years now, dude, so it'shard for me to even like get my
mind wrapped around the headhoney and approach that Christ
(37:39):
Greenfield actually utilized togo after me as an associate
pastor in Denver, coming downhere to to Phoenix.
It was definitely much more.
I think it was atypical is whatI'm trying to get after to how
most churches kind of kind of doit.
So talk about that, that needfor the humble kind of lowly
pastor and and how that is againso much different than kind of
(38:00):
the way the secular world doesit.
Cause I think the church hassomething to learn here as it
relates to to that first articlereality in our secular world Go
ahead.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, man, it's.
It's funny.
It's like we want, like a lotof churches will say, we want a
visionary leader that bringschange, as long as it impact my
life, right, and I think a lotof churches like they stay small
and they stay stagnant becausethey, they, they, they, they
psychologically want things tochange.
They want new families to come,they want baptisms, they want
(38:29):
growth, they want salvation,they want all the things that we
celebrate as churches, but aslong as it it convenes them or
cause their life any pain orstress, and they can have their
church exactly how they'vealways liked it for the past,
however long years.
I think that this is probablymore of a challenge in smaller
churches, stagnant churches,churches that aren't looking to
innovate and change and grow,which are most, you know, most
(38:51):
churches that I've experiencedand most pastors I work with
they're coming from context thatsays, hey, I was at this, 150
year old, you know congregation.
They just want these kinds ofthings to be the same.
They just want someone to pushthe buttons and, you know, reach
sermons and visit us in thehospital and that was it.
So I think that kind ofhumility like, yes, I'll come
and I'll be an Euro beatingserver and just give me a tie so
I can feed my family is wherethat comes from.
(39:13):
And you're right In themarketplace.
They're assessing you on yourcompetencies, on your skills.
What have we done?
That's similar to what you'llbe doing here, because hiring is
all about risk fundamentallyright, and we want to mitigate
our risk as much as possible tomake sure we're hiring the right
person, and that's why we wantto you know, really fact check
is this the right person for thejob?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
So so good man.
Anything else as it relates towhat you work folks through.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, the last one, sustainability and I think this
is one that gets kind ofoverlooked is like what's your
relationship with your churchgoing to be now that you're
bivocational or co vocational?
Because if you keep doingeverything we did as a full time
pastor while having a full timejob, you're going to burn out
about three to six months andyou're going to hurl up people
in the week.
So to start thinking now, whatdo I need to change and adjust
(40:01):
and kind of massage to make thissustainable for the long term?
Who do I need to raise up?
Who do I need to train?
Who ready to fill in the gapsthat I can't do anymore?
One of the things that I didthat was smart.
In my journey as a churchplanters, I always had a cov, I
was always a co pastor withanother bivocational pastor and
he and I could tag teampreaching.
We could.
We could each take vacations inthe summer, we could each take
(40:22):
a sabbatical after five yearsbecause we had each other.
And that was massive becausesometimes he had it in him to do
something for the church that Ididn't, and vice versa.
It also was a huge benefitbecause I had a traditional
eight to five job in LowerManhattan and he was a bartender
.
So I was kind of like the dayshift pastor and he was kind of
night shift pastor, so it workedout pretty well.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
You look at the Bible and they did things together.
I mean the easy stories, lukenine and then Luke 10, the
sending of the 12 and then the70 sent out two by two, and I
think we've overlooked that.
As it relates to leadershipwithin the church, how we need
to have a partner pastor.
I don't, I'm the lead senior.
(41:04):
Blah blah blah we don't reallyuse that language.
I've got a partner pastor nowwho is a pastor for me and has
stepped in.
He's newer on our team, hasstepped in here the last year
and we go back about a decadenow as friends and it's really
fun to do life in ministry withfriends and I just feel so bad I
(41:27):
mean truly man for guys,whether you're full time or co
or bi vocational guys that justfeel like man.
I'm all.
I'm all alone here and Sunday'scoming and I got to preach and
then you know.
And then, if you throw in, I gotan eight to five job.
I can just see how that wouldget just over overwhelming.
Anything more to say about theneed to do it with other people,
(41:49):
not for other people, eric.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, man, I would just say the best advice is that
if you are seriously exploringthis path of being co vocational
and you don't have someone todo it with, you should wait.
I would not advise any pastorto say I'm just going to
continue being a solo pastorwhile working a full time job.
That's just a recipe fordisaster, because it is so.
Like you said, Tim, it can beso frustrating, so exhausting,
(42:13):
so many demands on my time andmy energy.
I don't have anyone to lean on.
When you have that one personor that team of people that you
can count on and you're alltogether, working together, it
makes, like I said earlier inthe interview, a lot more fun, a
lot more enjoyable to doministry that way.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Hmm, I totally agree.
So let folks under the hood.
What a normal week for aCovocational pastor.
Looks like Sunday showing upand you're gonna do your thing
then.
But how do you help them findthat that balance that you're
talking about, as theytransition into this kind of new
world?
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah, yeah, man.
Well, the first thing is isthat you know, balances an
illusion, because I like neverperfectly balance everything.
So, in addition to being acovocational pastor for seven
years of the pastor here in theBronx and then, I've also have
three children Under five.
So they were all born afterchurch was planted and I'm sure
your listeners are well awareNew York City is not a place
(43:06):
where people you know Work andyou know go out for two hour
long lunches and hit the golfclub on Thursday afternoon and
go to happy hour for three hours.
It's a pretty intense place tolive and to work.
So one of the things I oftencoach passers through is
wherever you are, just be fullythere.
If you're at work, just work.
If you're at church doingchurch stuff, be it, be a church
doing church stuff.
(43:27):
If you're with your kids, or ifyour wife, your husband, be
with your what, your kids, yourwife, your husband, just be
fully present.
Because it's so easy to getpulled in every sort of
direction and I try to do thingslike oh, from one to three, I'm
gonna do this.
From two to five, I'm gonna dothat Whatever, the only thing I
can say is that you know, it'seasy to paint a rosy picture of
covocational ministry.
(43:48):
You know having you know thisday job plus leading your church
.
But all that pastors in on alittle secret under the hood
that for the first two years,and being a bivocational
covocational pastor, I would getup at five o'clock every single
morning to do church stuff andnow go to work from nine to five
.
That was my life.
So that's right.
To make those kind ofsacrifices I definitely would
(44:10):
not recommend.
This is not for the faint ofheart.
Don't do that forever because Idon't think I could have, but I
did that for a good season inmy life hmm, are there stories
of covocational, like teamchurch where they're just
Growing like nobody's businessand they're not really paying
anybody?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
or maybe your part-time salary, etc.
Do you have some stories ofchurches that folks could look
up and say, wow, here's.
Here's a model to follow.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, there's two places I would recommend.
The first is about the WesternUnited States examples.
I'm sure you have aninternational audience, but here
in the US the Tampa Undergroundis a great one to look up.
They're fantastic that theyhave a whole, they have books
and they have a lot of, you know, like market, like materials
and assets you can look at andstudy.
One is a little bit smaller, iscalled the Korea Collective.
(44:55):
They're based out ofPennsylvania.
They're doing a really fabulouswork as well, very similar to
Tampa Underground, and one ofthe things that's cool about
both of these groups Is that, asa decentralized model, right so
you might have a traditionalSunday morning church where
people gather around and listento some certain listen to some
songs in the sermon.
But we also have a ministrythat's to.
You know, bikers may have aministry.
(45:18):
They have one ministry in inKorea collective that literally
their whole ministry is going todifferent Renaissance fairs All
summer and ministering peoplein the Renaissance fair
community.
They have a.
They have a nail salonChristian-owned, and employees,
you know young girls and trainsthem on how to do, you know,
nails, and this nail salon brokea whole sex trafficking ring In
(45:41):
the state because they wereministering to these girls and
hearing their stories.
It's like stuff like that, Ithink, is really really cool,
and I mean mine is up stories ofmicrocosm of both of those.
But you know, all saints church, you know, in our seven years
of existence Planted a church,another church in the Bronx with
a bilingual Spanish-speakingpastor, and another church in
East New York, brooklyn, with aTrinidadian pastor, and so three
(46:04):
different congregations kind ofsprung up, all of which
co-locational leaders, allExpressions of community and
faith that didn't exist prior.
All because of the ability justto say, hey, you don't need
half a million dollars in aseminary degree to start a
church, you need a few peoplewho can go on mission together.
Are these like a large,glamorous, exciting churches?
Not really.
I might be 25 people on aSunday morning, but I'll say it
(46:25):
was 25 people that weren'tgathering there before.
I think God rejoices in that.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Amen.
This is the future and the andthe present right now, and I
pray people really, really takethat to heart.
Let's close with a theologicalquestion how?
How is discipleship andevangelism connected?
Because I think a lot of timesthey get bivurated right, but
you planted a church, thatplanted a church.
(46:52):
It was born pregnant, you know,and I bet that was in the the
plan.
Well, the Holy Spirit's plan,sure, from from the jump right.
So yeah, talk aboutdiscipleship and evangelism and
the interconnection there.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah, so I'll share two stories and then thank you
again for your time today.
Tim, this was a lot of fun.
I'm right back at you.
The first story is that when Iwas being mentored to plant my
own church, my mentors a pastornamed rich, and he told me one
time If you get hit by a bus,right right, I run my bicycle
around New York City everysingle day, so it's very likely,
if you get by a bus, who'sgonna take over your church?
(47:25):
And I said I have no idea.
Well, you got to figure thatout because it can't be.
The Eric Koch show has to be,you know, jesus show.
So you have to figure out nowwho are you being kind of
disciple?
Who are you gonna train?
Who can develop?
If God forbid, somethinghappens to you?
The church continues and that'ssomething I think all pastors
should consider, whether theybike around New York City or not
(47:45):
Is that, is this ministry gonnadie with me?
So that that's a problem and Ishould take this very seriously.
So kind of begin thinking now,who's the people in my life that
I can begin developing?
I think that's the first story.
Second story man Missdiscipleship and evangelism.
One of my neighbors in my part.
I live in a five-storyapartment building in the Bronx.
One of my neighbors asked me inthe mail room Eric, are you a
(48:10):
member of the clergy class?
Yeah, sure you could say thathe's like okay, do you mind if
you and I sit down and talkabout something I'm going
through?
I'm sure so.
A few weeks later I went to hisapartment who drinks themselves
for water?
And this guy just spilled hislife story to me good, bad and
ugly, you know.
Tears were shed, we prayedtogether and this guy will
(48:32):
probably never walk into achurch because just that's not
part of his life.
But he knew enough to know thatthere's a person in ministry
who loves Jesus, who lives in mybuilding I can talk to, and
he's not the only person thatI've had those conversations
with in my neighborhood, which Ithink is really cool.
I think when pastors andministry folks remove the
mentality that ministry onlyhappens in the four walls of the
(48:52):
church, it opens theopportunity for God to work in
our lives money through Sunday,and I think that's a really
powerful thing.
So what's the line betweendiscipleship and evangelism?
I mean, what was happening?
What was happening in thatguy's apartment when he was
praying and Crying because ofthe sins that he's dealing with
and hearing about Christ.
I would say it was both.
It was totally evangelism anddiscipleship.
(49:13):
So how do you entangle thosetwo?
I don't know, but I'm open tolistening and learning, but for
now I'm just gonna try to livewith people and serve them the
best I can.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, you're.
You're pastoring your community, yeah right.
And we need more of thebaptized folks who say I'm the
everyday Christian Pastoringtheir, their neighborhood.
That's right.
There'd be a renaissance towardthat, in that direction.
Man, that's what I'm prayingfor and this has been so much
fun.
Eric, I love your heart.
You have blessed our listenerstoday immensely.
(49:44):
If we got I help pastors getjobs calm.
You can hit Eric up there ifhis services could be of help to
you and your email.
Would you mind giving that outas well, eric?
Speaker 3 (49:55):
No not all, it's just my name here.
I see at I help pastors getjobs calm, and then also, if you
download the free PDF on thewebsite, that'll kind of trigger
you into a mailing list, so wecan engage that way as well.
You also can follow me onTwitter.
Up my name, eric oak.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Eric oak, the one and the only Jesus is using you in
a mighty way.
Man and I am better for ourtime today.
Sharing is caring.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is You're taking
this in, whether it's on YouTube, spotify, itunes, wherever it
is.
I'm a Spotify guy.
Where do you take in podcast,eric?
Spotify, man, only Spotify.
Yeah, only Spotify, onlySpotify.
So this is growing.
This is a podcast the nightleadership, collective, united
(50:32):
leadership org.
If we can help you in any way,it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, eric.
Appreciate it, man.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Thanks Tim.
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