What if the church growth movement has morphed into an unhealthy comparison game? How do we navigate the divisive impact of echo chambers and the lack of shared experiences in our ministries? Join us for a stirring conversation with Reverend Dr. Larry Osborne, a Kingdom Ambassador and Teaching Pastor at North Coast Church. Larry shares his remarkable journey from pastoring a small congregation of just 70 adults to leading a thriving church of over 13,000. He also opens up about his literary contributions that have influenced thousands of pastors across the globe.
Larry and I shed light on the challenges and opportunities of pastoring, emphasizing the importance of recognizing the unique gifts in each person. We explore Larry's bilingual gift and the power of the multi-site video model in reaching people, underscoring the vitality of understanding God's calling and leading with humility in our ministries. The conversation takes a poignant turn as we discuss the rise of echo chambers and the divisive impact of the lack of shared experiences, and Larry shares valuable wisdom on navigating these complexities.
Finally, we zoom in on the story of Jesus in the book of Mark and its relevance to our lives today, touching on the importance of living in the perfect love of Christ amidst the current tumultuous times. Larry imparts his advice on finding fulfillment and striking a balance in life, emphasizing the need for developing right habits and mindsets. So gear up for an enriching conversation filled with faith, wisdom, and practical insights from one of the most influential pastors of our time. This is not just an episode; it's a faith-filled exploration of modern-day ministry.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman, here.
Wherever you are receiving thisword today, whether it's
driving your car hanging out,maybe you're doing yard work
whatever it is that you're doing, i pray that the joy of the
Lord is your strength and thatyou're leaning into wanting to
grow.
Today, that humility is acharacteristic that you want to
put on.
The older we get, the more wemay know about certain things,
(00:58):
but that should lead us to say,man, i got a lot more to learn
about a lot of things.
And that that heart ofcuriosity should inspire us.
And I pray you're leaning intoday as I get to learn right
along with you, with Reverend DrLarry Osborn, a Kingdom
Ambassador and Teaching Pastorat North Coast Church, i've
heard about your church for many, many years.
I read a number of your books.
(01:19):
Brother, thank you forinvesting in so many churches
and leaders down through theyears.
Training is tenure as a seniorpastor.
North Coast grew from about 70adults to over 13,000.
Come on And we can attend atseveral seven local campuses.
That's wild.
Larry has a rare mix oftheological and practical wisdom
that's made him a mentor andmajor influencer to thousands of
(01:41):
pastors.
Many innovative conceptspioneered at North Coast are now
common practice, includingsermon based small groups.
I love that, larry.
We've been doing that for awhile.
Thank you for that.
Teaching teams Come onCollaborative sermon writing.
We double clicked on that atChrist Greenfield a long time
ago, larry.
I appreciate that.
Video venues and multi-sitecampuses.
(02:02):
His 10 books include StickyChurch Love It.
Sticky Teams Lead Like aShepherd Thriving and Babylon.
Oh, so much there AndAccidental Pharisees.
So thank you so much forjoining us today, larry.
How you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm doing good.
Thank you for having me andreading that little intro my mom
wrote.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
She's very kind, for sure.
So how are you praying?
How are?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
you praying for us.
He's got an exaggerationproblem, but other than that
we're good.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Not true.
The Lord has gifted you inmighty ways, and most especially
, your humility and your desireto just come alongside leaders
That's where we just align sowholeheartedly And the mission
of the United LeadershipCollective.
so many of those habits ofhealthy leaders and healthy
teams.
man, you've influenced methrough your research, through
(02:56):
your writing, exponentially.
So thank you, thank you.
So the standard question forthis podcast as you look at the
church in 2023, moving intothese kind of uncharted,
uncertain waters that many of usare navigating right now, how
are you praying for reformationin the American Christian Church
?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Larry Well, i got to be honest.
You know, yes, that question,and it's like well, I don't pray
for that on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, So that's that's something that I actually
.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I'd be there for, yeah, i just pray.
Lord, help me to do what youwant me to do today and have the
impact that you want me to havetoday, and pretty much that
will happen.
So, yeah, i just want to startthis whole thing off with total
honesty.
It looks well.
How are you regularly praying?
I go I'm not sure that's that'sworded, but it's.
(03:46):
It's very much a part of of whoI am and what I do when trying
to make that happen.
But my main thing is just hey,do your best every day, block
and tackle with your assignment.
Like David, we're prophets toour own generation And then in
the rear view mirror we'll seewhat God did with it.
(04:07):
But certainly everything I dois towards bringing people to
Jesus and hoping that some ofthe slide we've got everywhere
will be corrected and broughtback in alignment.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So That's awesome.
Tell your ministry story alittle bit deeper.
How did you fall in love withpastoring and then the local
church and wanting to pass passon kind of healthy
characteristics to so manychurch leaders?
How did that Genesis storyhappen, larry?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, tim, i started out I feel sometimes my life on
third base because I came from afamily that really honored the
Lord without being weird.
But the one thing I didn't likewas pastors and churches.
I was kind of the black sheep.
I had all of these goodinfluences.
(04:57):
The issues were mine.
Right before my senior in highschool I stepped over the line
and started following Jesusbecause the church we're in
unfortunately, my folks didn'tbuy that in value and character,
but it had more rules thanJesus and the Pharisees together
could ever come up with Andthat's part of why it was very
much a cultural thing, trying toreproduce the past.
(05:19):
And then what happened is I wasexposed to early move of what
was then called the Jesusmovement, really at ground zero.
About 400 people was all thatwere there then And my mind was
blown because I love thescripture right away when I was
reading the Bible one day andjust hit me, this is like not
(05:40):
religious history, this is realhistory.
I was reading Matthew and Ijust 180 turn around, but the
idea of being a pastor forget it.
But I started teaching myfriends whatever I was learning
and the house would fill up withthe Bible study and maybe I'll
become a professor or something.
And then in those early days Irealized, oh, i could be Larry
(06:01):
and be a pastor.
I didn't have to be.
What the pastor image was, ifyou will, and that's really my
calling into vocational ministrywas like I could get paid to be
Larry and teach Bible studiesand disciple people, which I was
doing in my spare time as I wasputting myself through college.
I was a journeyman retail clerkin the grocery business, had
(06:21):
two days off, taught Biblestudies in those days and shared
my faith with anything thatmoved, probably a little over
aggressively at that point.
And so that was it.
And then I had good mentors,like I said, besides the home.
That taught me it was okay tobe me that the goal was to do
what God called me to do.
The goal was not to grow somebig old church, though obviously
(06:44):
you'd rather succeed than failin the eyes of men.
So I was 28 when I came to NorthCoast, nancy was 24.
And we had a dream of spendinga lifetime in a place.
If the Lord allowed, you neverknow what his call is.
Completely Obviously, we gotthat one right, i guess, at this
point in our life and try toplant and pastor the church I'd
(07:10):
want to go to And I wassurprised lots of people want to
go the one I wanted to go torather than try to plant and
figure out how to make somethingbig and not be myself.
So that's my journey in thatshow.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Larry, that is so awesome.
You were part of the JesusRevolution man.
That's kind of insane.
You know a lot of folks and alot of listeners are a part of
the Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod and I think there's maybe
a skepticism among someconfessional kind of historic
church bodies about we couldjust say this was a
hyper-charismatic movement andobviously, with the movie coming
(07:45):
out and showing the good, badand ugly of that whole story,
what are some misconceptionsabout that Jesus movement?
You know your audience here.
A number of us are reallyconfessing kind of conservative
liturgical Christians.
What are some of thepreconceptions that people may
have when they hear that?
that you're like it wasn'ttotally like that.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Well, it wasn't crazy at all.
Theologically, i grew up in ahyper-sensationist church.
There were two things.
That were three things abenchmark, our rules and
regulations.
Anybody who didn't follow themwas lost.
We knew exactly the timetable ofthe Lord's return because we
(08:28):
were on the programmingcommittee, not the welcoming
committee, and anything of theHoly Spirit that wasn't in the
Bible but was present wassatanic.
So I went with this friend kindof like where am I going?
And all it was was an old balldude.
I thought it was an old balldude.
He was 42.
He stood up in front of about 3, 400 of us in this little room
(08:52):
and he taught 10 chapters of theBible, like a McGee would or
whatever, verse by verse throughthe Old Testament.
And then a group of guys got upand sang a song, like I might
hear on the radio, about Jesusand that was it.
That was not like all theweirdness and everything people
thought, and so it was very mucha Bible.
(09:14):
A great communicator could makethe King James of all things in
that era actually make sense tosomebody who didn't know
Shakespeare in English.
But yeah, i mean literallyverse by verse somewhere in the
Old Testament.
I don't know where it was.
It was just five years marchingthrough the Old Testament.
Now a lot of things spun offthat, but my personal opinion is
(09:37):
probably Chuck Smith is a mostimportant Christian, protestant
Christian leader of this century.
Because what you have to do isyou have to look at the ripple
effects.
I never received a prayerlanguage So I left that movement
because in the early days, sonow that movement tends to be
(09:58):
almost cessationist.
That was an important part andI felt like not angry.
I just don't have a place ofleadership here and I have
leadership gifts and teachinggifts as a college freshman So I
moved on.
But I say pretty much anybodywho has contemporary music today
, whose dress codes in churchare not Sunday best, who like to
(10:25):
teach the Bible in biggerchunks.
I mean, you start looking atthe ripple effects.
Nobody had any idea that thatwas a place where I went.
Oh, i could be Larry, it wasn't.
I could be Cabbage Apples, icould be Chuck Smith.
The people that learned theycould be them and people have no
idea are connected allthroughout and including your
(10:46):
tribe and your movement, there'smany, many aspects that the
door was opened.
It's kind of like Luther.
You go back to Luther's impacteverywhere and people have no
idea of the importance ofscripture, all kinds of
different things.
So, anyway, that's what it was.
(11:07):
For me is like wow, because itwas just so laid back.
You know, i just get up, teachthe Bible, live the best I can,
use my gifts, and it wasn't antianything at that stage, which
is very much who I am.
You know.
My bias and I kind of learnedit then was I have a track I run
(11:29):
on.
But if somebody's a brother orsister and going to be in heaven
, then I better treat them likea brother or sister because the
Lord, with his sense of humor,might make them my neighbor
forever.
If I want to fight, you know,kind of like you can stick to
fighting brothers in the roomuntil they learn to work it out,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, i love that.
I'd like to go deeper in termsof the sociological
ramifications of pastors fittinginto a respective mold, because
there are many who arelistening here and I've been a
part of, in 15 years of pastoralministry, formation of a number
(12:07):
of different types of pastorsAnd if there's one thing I could
pass on and I think you agreewith this is find your voice,
how God created you, theexperiences Jesus gave you, and
speak God's never-changing wordout of your own respective voice
.
Don't be Larry, don't be Tim,be Bob, be Sue in terms of
(12:31):
whatever it is you know.
So talk more about thosepreconceived notions of the mold
that a pastor fits in and howyou've kind of helped pastors
move beyond that.
In many respects It's so good.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Well, part of it is the body of Christ, for many of
us, has become nothing more thana theological construct.
But it's not a theologicalconstruct, it's an absolute
reality.
And if we really believe thebody of Christ is true, then
ears quit trying to make theeyes hear better.
And that's what we're going toand we learn to relax and become
(13:11):
what we are instead of beatingourselves up for what we're not.
You know, think of the evenclassic pastoral review process
and in any kind of tribe Whathappens is the focus is in what
you're not.
You know I have some verystrong wisdom gifts.
I can meet with people, seewhat's going on, tell them what
(13:32):
they ought to do.
That's very different than theempathy gift of long-term
counseling.
And I'm a truth teller and Ican grow in my EQ to know the
difference between saying thetruth and spreading the truth.
But I will never be, you know,the person who leads with gifts
(13:54):
of helps and mercy.
Now, i need to have helps andmercy.
I mean every single spiritualgift were to do those sort of
things.
But what I find is a lot ofpeople try to become what
they're not.
And again, think of thepastoral review, if a church has
that kind of thing.
They, you know they beat thesquirrel up because all that
does is climb and it can't flyAnd you know, the eagle doesn't
(14:17):
know how to run and it's justover and over.
We try to make ourselvessomething.
We're not Even churches.
The whole, the upside of thechurch growth movement was how
mission started by missionary inAmerica.
How in the world do Americanscall themselves Christians or
not even identified with a localchurch, Now morphed, like all
things do, into let's be biggerand better than everybody else
(14:40):
and compare ourselves.
But so it has a good side,calling people to involvement
with a body of believers and notjust an isolated faith journey.
But the downside is we have toomany pastors who think they
should grow.
In fact, tammy, we've all heardthis thing that healthy things
grow, right, pure baloney, purebaloney, the only thing that
(15:05):
grows as healthy through itsentire lifetime.
It's because it sounds likegeneral revelation, but the only
thing that grows throughout itsentire lifetime are the lowest
things in the food chain virus,bacteria, amoeba, all of that.
The higher you move up on God'screated order, the more you have
a season of growth andmultiplication.
That's how it works.
(15:26):
But people who have beenblessed with big L leadership
gifts.
Stand up and tell everybody youought to be me and if you are
healthy, you love Jesus, yourthing will grow and grow and
grow.
No, not only do the higherthings in God's created order
have a season of growth, theyhave a built in DNA.
Ants don't get bigger than ants.
(15:48):
Ants don't get bigger than dogs.
Elephants bigger than elephants.
Blue wells, blue wells.
The only way you get biggerthan your built in DNA is
steroids.
Steroids will kill you.
There's a lot of ministrysteroids out there because
people have not accepted that.
Maybe God's calling my life withthe shepherd faithfully a
smaller flock.
(16:08):
In every which way, if I canhelp people, who has God made
you to be?
Yeah, try to grow as a personand if you're a pastor, try to
grow your church.
There's a reason some PGAgolfer and a major league
baseball player, rugby player,whatever it is they have coaches
, because we always hit anartificial lid before our true
(16:32):
lid, but there's a true lid foreveryone and every organization,
and so my thing is figure outwhat God called you to do and do
that well, and quit shooting atthose who do something you
don't do well.
Well, because we're all justcastles in a kingdom.
We're franchises.
Starbucks doesn't care if Iquit going to one branch and go
(16:56):
to another one.
The branch manager does.
Starbucks doesn't even care ifI start going to Seattle's best,
because they own that too.
If we would have the mindset Ijust described, there'd be such
so much more joy and true unity,not uniformity, in ministry.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, you just scratch at the edge that I've had and
you articulated it so well.
First, corinthians 12,.
Romans, chapter 12, i meanwhere we find Paul, using this
metaphor of the body where wouldI be without the foot or where
would the head be apart from thehands?
I mean, that's it.
And that metaphor moves intothe pastoral ministry.
There's no one outside of Jesusthat can be the perfect
(17:38):
shepherd, so let's get off thethrone and put him back on the
throne and just say, hey, i needif pastors simply said, hey, i
got a very small set of giftsand I can clearly articulate
what those are.
But since I know that small setof gifts and how God hardwired
me, what fires me up, based onmy experiences, the community of
(17:58):
people around me helped mearticulate this.
I can articulate that I alsorealized, man, how much help I
need, how much I need the bodyof Christ to be the body of
Christ for me, to watch out formy blindsides and all of that.
If we just led with that sortof humility and then looked at
the churches down the road, notas competitors but complimentary
churches, all aimed at the sameaim of elevating the name of
(18:21):
Jesus, how much more fun.
You mentioned joy, but just howmuch more fun would it be to
have that big C, big kingdommindset, larry?
We don't do that well in ourtribe And I imagine many other
tribes don't do it well at all.
It's more comparison as akiller of joy man And pastors,
we take the cake.
We win that game, man, all thetime And it's really hurting our
(18:44):
gospel witness and really justthe joy of the never changing or
the infinite game I'd use thatthe infinite game of there's
always going to be more peoplewho need the gospel of Jesus
Christ, right From thisgeneration into the next.
So just enjoy the ride.
More is what I hear you saying.
Anything more to add there,larry?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Well, it's again.
The mindset creates truebiblical unity.
There are a lot of churches.
I have a unique bilingual gift,just by my background, i mean I
can move from one group to theother on the whole spectrum of
born again ministries And theone thing I notice is a lot of
(19:24):
them don't understand justbecause you wouldn't go to a
church doesn't mean they're notreaching people that you
couldn't reach.
So you know somebody goes.
Ah, i want to go all deep inthe Greek and the Hebrew.
Great, then you're going tohave a smaller crowd than the
Walmart will.
But all of those peoplewouldn't go to the Walmart
church.
You know they'll go to thesmall mom and pop or you know
(19:46):
the farm stand or whatever it is.
So when we get into this,there's so many cultural
languages out there And that'swhy we need the different forms
of the body of Christ.
And what I feel like happens ismost of us draw our line on the
church we would not go to.
I could never imagine my.
So we therefore think theyshouldn't be reaching people.
(20:09):
But the church you would not goto probably is reaching people
you could not reach.
And again, there are lines todraw.
Paul writes them about heresy.
The seven letters in the bookof Revelation say not everything
that calls its church itself achurch is a Jesus honoring
church.
(20:29):
But you know I got the memolonger ago that baby Jesus grew
up and he's King Jesus.
So he doesn't meet me as thispitbull or watchdog or up here,
and I think a lot of us thinkthat role is still open.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, sociology, what we like and the people we like
doing life with, overwhelms theexpansive theology of the
kingdom, and that's what I hearyou calling for.
Praise, praise, be to God, sotell us your story.
I mean sticky church, stickyteams sticky fingers sticky but
(21:09):
all sorts of sticky stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, that's the publisher's fault that those
three books have that title, notmine.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's cool, it's stuck .
So tell us the journey ofbecoming an expert on church
planning, multi sites and multicongregations.
You and I were having a chatabout how we have a multi site
here and you kind of made me myhead spin a bit, but in a good
way, about how you may not havemulti sites but within a
generation or so they could endup being more of a multi
(21:40):
congregational movement.
So help us understand churchplanning, multi sites, multi
congregations Larry.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Well, i felt for some reason that God's calling my
life was to help networks andnot create a network, and so
church planning just came out ofwanting to help church planners
.
I love the whole process ofchurch planning because you
don't know the winners from thelosers and you just kind of step
in and see what God is going todo And you know.
(22:09):
If you say, how did I become anexpert or whatever in that, i
don't know.
I mean part of it is this Goddecides the line that's in front
of you, asking you for advice,more than you decide who you
want to give advice to, and Ifound people doing that.
I think part of the reason interms of who I am, i've always
wanted to know.
From youth on.
I've always asked the whyquestion instead of the why
(22:32):
question.
I wanted to know what washappening, that I always was
interested in, why.
I kind of lived my life at30,000 feet observing things and
then see something I thinksignificant and take a deep dive
.
Well, i think most peopleactually live in the forest,
going from tree to tree andstudy it.
I don't know a lot about thetrees, i know a lot about the
(22:53):
forest and then deep dive Andthat is just ended up throwing
me into the church planningthing with a sense of
understanding how culture works,what the roadblocks are, what
the rockets to light, etc.
When it came to multi-site, it'swell you might know or your
(23:13):
listeners might or might notthat we were the first church to
do it, but it wasn't so much avision as a problem.
We had 3,000 people in a 500seat sanctuary.
I'm in my early 40s, i put aquarter in me, i'll preach
another sermon.
And then I had some anxietyattacks.
About the same time my wife hadsome cancer.
That was very serious at thetime.
(23:33):
She's doing fine now, by thegrace of God.
But my board said you can't addany more services And we were
not marketing or advertising.
We have never done that.
Not theological against it, noproblem with it, but we don't.
And so I felt like Jesus andMark, where he tries to go to
the other side of this sea ofGalilee for R&R and they follow
(23:55):
him like sheep without ashepherd.
And it was Lord.
We can't turn these people away, you're sending them.
So I was seeking for a way tohandle these people without any
more services And the crazy ideaof you know what video might be
able to be a siphon.
Instead of a punishment forover you know, an overflow room
is a punishment for being lateCould we actually create a
(24:18):
siphon that people would choosefirst?
And thus we started thedifferent styles and all that
and, unbeknownst to me solvingthat problem, churches from all
around the country came to seeit and they played with my toy
the wrong way.
They didn't reach differentdemographics with different
styles of worship and a video.
They cloned themselves inanother location.
(24:40):
So we were probably one of thefirst 10 multi-site churches,
not the first one, like a lot ofpeople think.
But what quickly hit me were acouple of things.
Number one there's a 20 minutedrive time barrier.
When people drive more than 20minutes to a site, there are two
(25:00):
things disappear Come and seeevangelism, the most powerful
way adults are reached in a waythat sticks, and youth
involvement, which is prettyimportant in this culture.
So thus began our philosophyWhenever we'd get a group of
people driving more than 20minutes, they could still come
to our mothership if they want.
But we want to plant.
(25:21):
We got a large enough group, acampus there, and then, over
time, i just began to realizethere's a big difference between
multi-site andmulti-congregational.
There's about a 90% overlap.
But the huge difference isculture is set from the stage or
the pulpit or the platform, andwhen everybody shares the same
(25:42):
message.
In our case it was always ateam, but when everybody hears
the same message, they have thesame culture.
But when you have differentcommunicators, the communicator
slowly morphs the culture intothat which fits them.
Nothing wrong with that.
But I would call when you havelive teachers.
It's really multi-congregational.
It's been around for 2000 years.
(26:03):
It's a great model.
Every denomination, every tribestarted with that.
A great leader or a greatteacher, great church.
People wanted to duplicate.
But we all know that over timethey begin to resist the
mothership's control.
Right, that's just how it is.
And then you have to figure away to balance those two things.
(26:25):
So that's why I say everymulti-congregational church will
eventually split off intodifferent churches, and nothing
wrong with that, it's wonderful.
Just people need to understandthat's different than multi-side
.
I've never seen a video venuechurch spin off.
It just dies.
And the spin off it's long-termchurch planning, gestation.
(26:48):
It might be when Moses dies.
Everybody thinks there's Joshua, it might be Moses and Joshua,
and then they split off.
They wait till real boom showsup.
I mean, i don't know how, whenand where, but I just know it's
got a different long-termtrajectory And both are great
And I spent a lot of timehelping churches with both
models.
But I think it's important theyunderstand the difference,
(27:11):
because the early evangelists ofthe multi-site movement got so
excited about it.
They combined everything intoone And that's like asking
attendance If it's SouthernBaptist, they're going to give
me their membership.
Now who shows up?
If it's Lutheran, you're goingto tell me adults, not kids.
If it's non-denominational, ihave to divide it by two.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I love it.
So, yeah, just to summarizewhat Christ Greenfield is about,
and we don't have manymulti-side slash,
multi-conrogational churches inour tribe.
But I am because it's acultural value here committed to
live preaching.
Nothing against video venue atall.
(27:54):
I'm committed to live preachingbecause we need more
proclaimers of the gospel, notfor our respective church but
for the church at large, andthey need training in that and
they need to have wise guideswho are coming alongside those
that have been doing it for awhile.
So that's why we're committedto that.
But what I hear you saying is,within a generation it could be
(28:15):
me or some other leaders thatcome and go.
We should almost plan for thembeing released from, say, the
Christ Greenfield brand, etcetera, and to go and have that
separate and that separationwithin whether it's a decade,
couple decades, whatever mylifetime that's a normal
separation that we should not beafraid of but plan
(28:38):
strategically for.
Is that correct, larry?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, and if I can push back on you on your
podcast, i really see it as aboth and strategy.
So when we had there areleaders who teach and teachers
who lead or preachers, okay,what's your primary gift?
And so when we have somebodywho's got a gift of teaching, we
(29:02):
haven't do it.
And one of the pushbacks onmulti-site video was always you
need to raise up teachers.
And I was always like, well,you learn to teach by teaching,
not just on a stage in asanctuary, and North Coast is
living proof of that.
We have teachers out the kazoothat speak at major conferences
and camps, that don't speak onour main stage because we set
(29:25):
them up to teach And plus ourteaching team means I think this
year six different people willhave preached at the main stage.
But what we also have is wehave some people whose teaching
gift is larger than theirpreaching gift, and so, by
pastoring and leading andshepherding a multi-site, some
(29:47):
of ours are well over a thousand, almost 2,000.
And their gift would have been400.
And so here's the thing to hearthat people don't hear.
When people you can't makepeople go somewhere, we don't
have a parish where we canassign it.
And so the truth of the matteris people come to North Coast to
listen to Chris Brown and LarryOsborne And Christopher Hilken
(30:10):
was there for a while, the guynamed Mike Hurley just different
key people.
So they're going to drive fareven when we plan a campus near
them with live teaching.
So we're trying to break the20-minute barrier with our
videos.
That's what we're trying to do.
So if you must hear us, great,we're going to come to you, and
if we have a communicator, we'llplan them across the street.
(30:32):
We do not see a conflictbetween the two, and so what I
tell a church is if you'rehaving significant numbers of
people driving more than 40minutes, then take a video to
them, because they're drivingmore than 40 minutes is really
saying they're coming for theworship experience And, let's be
(30:54):
honest, more often than not,the communicator, because when
the communicator changes, theystop doing that.
So let's bring it to them Now.
Our strategy of growing webetter raise up leaders and we
better raise up communicators.
So it's really a both and, andI think a lot of people don't
see that that we would be asdeeply committed to raising up
(31:17):
the next generation of teachers.
But we don't.
Our biggest room is 850.
We didn't want to build two and3,000 seat places where people
came like it was an event, sothat was our.
okay, we're going to beat youat the game because I can't help
it.
If people want to come here andbe teach.
They're like, don't blame me.
The thing got big.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So, yeah, what I hear yousaying is differentiating the
teaching gift from the maybestage, communication, preaching
gift, and there should be realand in our tribe this is under
the one office actually of holyministry, so called pastoral
(31:59):
office, but it's justrecognizing the unique gifts
that God is given.
Because, i totally agree withyou, i am okay at teaching when
I preach and or when I lead andcast vision, which happens, you
know, on the platform or pulpit,like that's something that I
lean into and comes verynaturally to me, preparing a
(32:21):
conversation for a deep dive,exegetical, and so like.
There are other men and womenwithin our congregation who are
much more adept at that work AndI think we should create lanes
to recognize that within thechurch and not diminish it
because, just real time, rightnow it is testing with the
multi-carrigational approach,using your language, who has?
(32:45):
because fewer than we wouldlike to admit have that
communication, preaching giftand that's not something we
should be ashamed of, it'ssomething we should just
recognize.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Larry anything else to say there?
Yeah, if gifts are gifts, Yeah,that whole passage starts out.
We don't decide what gift wehave, where to use it or the
measure of the gift.
So, you know, every now andthen there's a you know, cut
down the tall poppy.
People ought to be ashamed of alarge gift And, frankly, the
(33:19):
video venue multi-site model Idon't I'm not comfortable with
is the one that's simply tryingto grow the church bigger.
Again.
Our motivation is not let's getNorth Coast bigger, Let's, you
know, go put our our tat onevery city.
It's let's stop people fromdriving more than 20 minutes,
(33:41):
because we're radicallycommitted to discipleship, which
does not happen when you go toan event.
So that's, that's really.
That's the missing piece thatpeople did not understand about
why we stuck with video and thenhad no idea we did both.
In fact, we've had a hugecollege ministry and he wanted
(34:04):
he's a teacher He wanted toplant a church and he planted it
just a, I don't know two milesfrom my house, right near us,
And we platform and said itwasn't a North Coast church.
Few things.
He wants to do different.
If you want to be a part of it,go in his tribe.
He won the church plant of theyear award a couple of years ago
(34:25):
We're involved with it gave himthe same money as if it had our
name.
So we're very much open-handed.
But I I just don't understandwhy people want bigger and
bigger audiences Plus.
That's the other reason we werecommitted to a teaching team.
A one teacher multi-sitecollapses when that teacher
(34:46):
moves, But a multi-team wherethe team is strong, then that
person can move on and life goeson.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
That's so powerful.
Yes, yes.
So pastoring in 2023, you'rewalking alongside a lot of
leaders and you've stepped downfrom kind of your key
influencing role there at NorthCoast and are doing a lot of.
You know pastoring pastors Andas you're walking alongside men,
what are the greatestchallenges and opportunities?
(35:19):
But?
but lean into the challengesright now, As you see pastoring,
I would say in a post COVIDworld, everything changed, Larry
, for us.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I mean we, we're Lewis and Clark now.
We are Lewis and Clarkuncharted.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, we don't know, like we thought we thought the
ocean was going to we.
We missed by a couple thousandmiles about where this ocean,
the Pacific, is, and so nowwe're ditching the canoes and
we're we're hiking into theseuncharted territories and, man,
we're going to need a lot ofhelp.
So how well I mean just makesthem general broad brush How
well are pastors doing in theseuncharted waters right now from
(35:55):
your perspective?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Well, first of all, i think they're doing better than
the surveys say, because it'sall about the yes a question.
So I have a a good friend ofmine is nationally known as a
researcher, and I'm alwayspushing back that you're not a
leader, you're a researcherbecause you get the right
information but you don't knowwhat it means, and so people go.
This huge percentage of pastorsare ready to quit.
(36:17):
Well, the question is duringthe last few years of you
thought of quitting?
huge number of people will sayyes, because there's been hard
times.
There's hard times, but if youchange the question to in the
last two years, have you doneanything towards moving and
walking away from vocationalministry, such as investigating
(36:40):
another job, interviewing foranother job, et cetera, not
talking to your spouse about howhard it is and I'm ready to
quit then the numbers go waydown right.
So I think it's been difficult,but I don't think it's a panic
mode that people make it out tobe.
Well, here's a few of the thingsthat have changed significantly
, and one of them's not COVID,and it's like people would blame
(37:04):
COVID, or they blame the Trumpelection or whatever, for the
divisiveness in our culture, andthat's not what caused it If
you step back and look at 30,000feet.
What caused it was the growthof choice and the lack of a
shared experience.
So we've always had echochambers.
They used to be geographic And,you know, somebody from the
(37:26):
deep South thought people in theNortheast were either stupid or
immoral and the Northeastthought that of the deep South
right.
So echo chambers have alwaysbeen around, but now they're by
choice And we have, you know,going back to FM radio, cable
television now the podcast andthe news, whatever you want to
(37:48):
listen to, you choose your echochamber.
you have your social media.
If you have that, you virtualsignal things and we just go
down a rabbit hole, assuminganybody disagrees with us as
either stupid or immoral Andtherefore everybody's angry And
we have turned away from God.
You know there's a dimmerswitch principle.
You obey the light you have.
(38:09):
Proverbs says the light getsturned up higher and higher the
path of the righteous, like therising of the noon day sun.
Romans one tells us a culturethat rejects God gets darker and
darker And most people thinkthe bottom is sexual decadence.
But it isn't.
It's the next bottom is sexualdecadence If you actually read
Romans one, 18 to 32, and we hitthat in the sixties.
(38:31):
Sexually transmitted diseasehas put a little halt on it and
we're now full bore back downthat one.
But in, in, i think, it's,versus 28 to 32,.
At the end he says therefore,god gave them over to a depraved
mind to do what ought not bedone.
And then he starts a list.
Everything on that list isrelational destruction, gossip,
slander, what we would callcancel culture, no mercy, no
(38:54):
grace, disobedient to pain.
There's not one thing that'snot relational destruction.
And so part of what we'reliving in now we blame on
politics and we blame on COVIDis the end result of everybody
choosing the little echo chamberthey want to live in and
therefore being angry, plus thething God told us would happen
(39:16):
to a culture.
So we've got an angrier, moreisolated culture than any of us
have ever seen.
And it's, it's.
It's exponentially increasingin its vehemence and it's I mean
.
Just take a lot.
We gossip and slander are calledinvestigative reporting today,
(39:39):
whether it's MSNBC or Fox.
You want to read every singleday it's all you know about the
other side and how evil andstupid they are, and then deep
dives into Trump's collusion orBiden's stuff or whatever it
would be.
It's, it's, it's almost.
I mean, we need to know thebasics, but we dig into all the
gossip and slander, and it'seven in Christian circles.
(40:01):
What's the number one podcastin Christian circles?
The Rise and Follow Marcel.
People spending hours listeningto one group of people who are
passing on gossip.
Gossip is information you don'tknow the person you don't need
to be a part of, and slander,you know, trying to make you
think worse of the person, whichare horrific sins And and we
(40:25):
just it's like sugared poison.
We listen to it left and right.
You know pastors tell me so, iso I I'm learning the dangers of
being a celebrity pastor andI'll tell them.
Don't worry, you won't be, butyou're filling your soul with
negative like I need to knowDavid's slept with Bathsheba.
I don't need to know how manytimes, of what position.
(40:46):
I don't need to know exactlywhat pair of binoculars he was
using, and it's just so.
One of the biggest things weface is a culture that's trigger
happy, with anger beingactivated, being.
You know whatever it is youwant to call triggered.
We haven't had that before.
And then our, our own souls arechasing.
(41:07):
You know we're just sippingthat same same poison ourselves.
I think you know the fact we'rein this into Romans, godless
culture.
We are totally post Christianand a lot of us haven't fully
accepted that.
We keep thinking that that whatwe're doing is honored in the
(41:27):
eyes of people.
So, like North Coast has somereally cool swag coats, jackets,
you know, all that kind ofstuff, from conferences to just
whatever our life groups, thewhole bed.
And I'm not the lead guyanymore, so you know I have
opinions that don't always turninto action.
But if I was a lead guy, what Iwould do right now is say let's
(41:49):
no longer ever have North Coastchurch on our swag, because in
this world there's aconversation stopper.
Let's call it North Coast,which would be a conversation
starter.
Right, it's, and I don't thinka lot of pastors and people
understand that.
We're in Rome again.
We're not as bad as Rome was,though we think we are, but
(42:12):
we're in Rome again.
Everybody's angry and we'redrinking the same relational
destruction and call aninvestigative reporting in
Christian circles and politicalcircles and wondering why our
soul is sick.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Breach Larry And I know you weren't preaching,
you're just talking from theheart, but couldn't agree more.
And I, just as a parish pastorright now, man, i get pulled,
you know, and I don't it doesn'tbother me necessarily, but I
got members thinking we ought tobe more, you know, for certain
(42:53):
things in our culture on one endof the political spectrum and
on another, you know, and I justwanna be Jesus guy, in
relationship with Christ and inrelationship with others.
I don't know, this is rooted inthe fall.
By the way, this is deep in theGenesis three story, right, i
mean Adam and Eve.
Eve had been I forget where Iheard this but Eve had been sent
(43:16):
by God as a partner, co-creator, co-created in the image of God
by the creator, to be not justa helper but a kind adversary,
one who would question him butwould stay connected to him, one
that would love and encourage,compliment him.
(43:40):
And I don't think in our culturetoday, from the highest of
positions to just even in thehome, we have the, i guess,
character of humility andcuriosity about ourself, the
self-awareness to say, hey, man,i need kind adversaries, people
that disagree agreeably with me, as we and I need to do the
(44:02):
same for others, and it's waybeyond the human mind, wants to
make it way more simple.
But it's way beyond politicsand social media and all of that
.
There's a deeper, underlyingcause to our division, and it is
our wrestle with the flesh andour wrestle with our inability
(44:26):
to connect deeply with others.
It's all about relationship,and therefore our tribes become
ever increasingly, increasinglysmall, until we get to the point
of isolation.
I mean isolation is killing somany people today, larry.
And this is to round it back tothe role of the church.
I mean the church has to be aplace where people of all
different stripes and sizes, imean everybody, all different
(44:49):
walks of life, say hey, here wecome, recognizing two things
There's a Creator.
He's revealed Himself in HisSon Jesus.
His Holy Spirit lives within usand we're not the Creator.
We need a lot, a lot of help,and so this is an open place for
you to come and receive and tooffer your gifts as the body of
Christ grows more and more upinto Jesus, who is our head.
(45:10):
That sounds a lot better thanhaving to take stances.
This is our type of church.
No, we're a church for allpeople.
Say more there, larry.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, well, part of the problem is Paul tells
Timothy a church planter, andthen the pastor in Ephesus right
, he left him in Ephesus.
He reminds him about the farmer, the soldier and the athlete,
and what he reminds him of thesoldier is he doesn't get
involved in civilian affairs.
And part of the problem rightnow that I see over and over is
(45:40):
everybody wants to hijack thechurch for very good things
instead of the main thing, andpeople don't seem to understand
that salads are really good.
But out here in Californiathere's a thing called the
In-N-Out Burger And you go toIn-N-Out Burger when you want a
burger, fries or a drink.
If you want a salad, you gosomewhere else.
If you want chicken, you gosomewhere else And like, for
(46:05):
instance I have deep politicalpassions and I have deep
concerns culturally aboutcertain things, but the moment I
signed up to be a soldier ofthe cross and was placed in the
role of being, i don't know,lieutenant Colonel, colonel or
low-level general, whatever itis I am in his army.
Civilian affairs are not on myagenda And I think a lot of
(46:27):
pastors forget that.
They keep trying to pleaseeverybody.
They keep seeing real problemsout there.
One of the good story from theGospels is Jesus in the book of
Mark kind of his first day ofministry.
All these people get healed Andthe next day there's a long
line of people early in themorning lined up with legit,
(46:49):
absolutely need to fix needs.
People had got their friendsbecause of the things that had
happened the day before.
Jesus had got up early in themorning and prayed.
They couldn't find him.
Hey, there's a long line.
They go and get him and he sayslisten, we're supposed to move
on.
That's what the Lord wants.
The parallel for all of us iswe have been given an agenda and
(47:10):
our agenda is not fix everyneed.
That's what we think it is.
And Jesus came to heal, came todo kingdom work and the kingdom
of God showed up through him,but his real job was to go to
the cross.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
And so what I think a lot of pastors do is we see a
need and we think our job is tofill every need, not to ask is
our name on it and is thisreally important?
but not the most importantthing, because every single day
there's coming down the track anew political issue, a new you
(47:50):
name what it is cultural need,whatever, and I just cannot play
whack-a-mole and fix them andstill fulfill the great calling
that I have, which is leadpeople to Jesus who don't know
him and therefore come into thechurch with all kinds of jacked
up ideas, values and views, andthen I'm to baptize them and
(48:10):
then I'm to train them.
Keep at it until they fullyobey everything you taught.
That's a great commission.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, exactly, and Satan is having a heyday today,
still killed, destroyed,dividing, fear on overdrive.
And that's not what the perfectlove of Christ cast out fear.
So praise be to God.
We live above the fray, we setour minds and hearts where
Christ is and we understand thestory of which we're apart.
Nothing that is going on in theworld right now should be
(48:38):
overly shocking, right?
Jesus said I will come again tomake all things new.
Until then, it's gonna getworse before it gets better.
So just have that mindset andbring light to dark places.
So, yeah, that is the macronarrative story that I think, as
we, as confessing Christians,we were centered in the never
(48:59):
changing scriptures, we followthe works and the ways of Jesus,
we need to orient ourselvesjust more around that macro
story of creation to recreationon the last day, and then just
kind of hmm, it's gonna beinteresting to see how this
works out in the world.
I just have that kind of okay,god, you're in control and I'm
(49:19):
not necessarily condemning anindividual.
There are certain ideologiesand things that are not of you,
lord, and I'm just gonna connectit to your word.
We'll talk about those thingsthat are connected there, but
I'm not gonna get drawn into thefearful fray which is toxic.
Today The church must live inthat, and it's a tension filled
middle path road.
You know.
We make to use a law gospellens for us in our preaching and
(49:44):
we're called to make thecomfortable uncomfortable and
the uncomfortable because of oursin, comforted by the mercy and
grace of God and the person inwork of Christ Jesus.
And so I think it's a great dayto be a leader in the local
church.
I don't think it's a day thatwe should fear.
The day of Christ's return isquicker as soon or now than when
we first believe.
(50:04):
So anything more to add aboutthe story of which we're apart
and how that should shape theway we lead in the church here
in 2023, Larry.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
You know, as I think I mentioned earlier, i'm on the
welcoming committee, not theprogramming committee.
As far as the Lord's return,you know I got the balloons and
the party things.
I'm ready to go if, when andwhatever.
But I have though I don't knowall the details of the book of
Revelation or prophetic passages.
I have read the end and Last.
(50:33):
I look we win.
And so if I know the finalscore, i shouldn't be too, and I
know that we win.
I shouldn't be too panicked inthe third quarter.
If and when I feel behind Andto me that changes everything.
If I really believe we win,that doesn't mean I just set
back and it's going to takeplace And I'm supposed to play
the game.
(50:53):
But panic and despair are not apart of the thing.
I might not like it, i might beconfused.
The bottom line is hey, thegame's over, i'm playing the
replay, we're going to win, andwhat that also means is I'm not
a spiritual warfare.
The Bible uses spiritual warfareabout the flesh and the spirit.
(51:15):
We use it about culture, andwhen we use the language of
spiritual warfare and fear, wehunker down and we want to wipe
out our enemies.
When we use spiritual warfareinternally and the Great
Commission as our compass.
We don't want to wipe out, wewant to win over.
Now, part of the problem todayis we stop trying to win over,
(51:36):
we just try to comfort.
And so tolerance biblicallyshould be you have the freedom
to be wrong and we've turned itinto everybody's right, which is
ridiculous.
But it's either everybody'sright or I have no tolerance And
I go oh gee, when I first cameto Jesus I had some jacked up
(51:56):
values and ideas And I'm glad hedidn't wipe me out for him, but
I'm also glad he.
You know, i think a churchshould become as you are, but
for God's sake, don't stay thatway.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Right, that's right.
This last question here,brother, we could talk for a
long time.
I can't wait to learn with youin different settings in the
coming months and years.
But what are the top habits forin our tribe and many that
there are pastors who arenearing retirement or refirement
into a different season of life?
What are some of those tophabits for church leaders that
(52:29):
run in ministry for decades?
I want to be my dad.
I'm a third generation pastorLarry.
My dad ran very, very well, isdoing new things now in a new
season of life.
I know that's where you findyourself is as well, but you've
run that race faithfully and youkind of look at the.
You look at the media and anumber of different maybe
celebrity pastors who don'tfinish well.
(52:50):
I don't think again.
That tells the full story ofpastors who are finishing well
in a very different context, butgo ahead.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Most finish well.
I agree The news, only there'snever been a story, even in
Christian journals, about theone who finished well.
It's always the one whofinished poorly, because it's
boring.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
It's kind of boring, so talk, i want to be boring man
.
Help me run the next 25, 30years.
you know really, really wellWhat are those habits.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Well, i think some of the things are mindsets and
habits.
One of them is those who do areally good job with their
family, their friends orcommunity and their church are
people who do not have a wound,a father wound, something wound
of insecurity.
They have nothing to prove andno one to impress.
(53:35):
That's a great goal.
A mentor used to talk aboutthat.
My father raised me with thatkind of value system And I
remember just, will I ever getthere?
And I think somewhere in my mid30s I woke up and I go no, i'm
still driven, but I it reallywas like I don't have anything
to prove and I don't haveanybody to impress And the
(53:56):
freedom that comes with that isunbelievable.
And I know people who are atthe absolute top of the heap and
they still have things to proveand people to impress And they
don't realize the more they'redriven, the more that people
don't like them, the more thatpeople put them in a weirdo box,
if you will.
So that would be the firstthing.
(54:16):
I think another practice isknowing the difference.
If you're going to run the longrace, you got to know the
difference between the regularseason and the playoffs.
You play hurt in the playoffsbecause it's an opportunity that
might never come again.
If you play hurt in the regularseason, you won't make the
playoffs, and I think a lot ofpeople and again it goes back to
what are you trying to prove.
(54:37):
I mean relax, jesus on yourside.
He says if you're weary, heavyladen, come to him.
His burden is light and even inhard times his steering guide
is easy.
If he pulled you into thosehard times, if you go into those
hard times with that as yoke,then yeah, it's going to be
incredibly hard.
We've all been there through areally hard season that God put
us in and we're going.
(54:58):
That was hell, but it was a loteasier than I ever thought it
would be.
Well, that was because we wereunder his yoke.
So I think a lot of peopledon't know the difference
between regular season andplayoffs And they also don't
know the difference betweencalling and potential.
One of the great goddesses ofour culture is potential.
The worst life lived is thelife that doesn't reach full
potential.
(55:18):
You could be a first round NBAdraft pick, third, fourth pick
in the nation in the NBA, andyou have a six year career as a
journeyman and everybody sayswhat a tragedy.
Dude, you just lived everylittle hoopster's dream, but
because of this thing calledpotential, you think you're a
failure.
(55:38):
The only one who lives theirfull potential has the ability
to, according to FirstCorinthians seven, is a single
person.
The moment you get married, youhave a divided mind to please a
spouse and to please the Lord,And then you have children to
raise them, nurture, admonitionof the Lord, et cetera.
And a lot of us don't understand, especially English speaking
(55:59):
people, that we're called tofulfill our calling, not a
potential, because of a weirdparable that in the English
language an amount of money,called a talent, is part of a
parable, and so our firstillustration of that passage is
what do you do with the skillsyou have in talents And no other
(56:21):
language group.
It's like illustration number20, that's a parable about what
do you do with your possessions.
And we live in a day whereeverybody thinks if I could, i
should, and God didn't call usto do that.
You know that's like that.
Not understanding thatdifference is massive.
It has allowed me to say no toso many things I could have done
(56:43):
that would have made a kingdomimpact, but they would have made
me a worse dad.
They would have made me a worsehusband and a worse friend.
And, at the end of the day,every pastor needs to know
you're an interim, whatever roleyou're in, but you're a
permanent spouse, you're apermanent father or mother,
you're a permanent friend, andwe make the decisions backwards.
(57:09):
If my name's on it, i'll do it.
My name's on it, no, i won't.
And that has been incrediblyimportant for me.
And the last thing I'd say isthey know the ability to do
their best under thecircumstances, not their best.
They know you're doing yourbest, or it's always more, but
under the circumstances, do yourbest and take a nap, you know
(57:32):
Yeah.
I love it, jesus, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll hit the
kind of age I hit right now,with the kind of energy and
impact I have right now, insteadof just gasping across the
finish line, i'll tie it up withthis.
I had two of my kids who randistance, and if you're going to
run successfully distance atstate, national type levels,
(57:56):
you're not going to leave it allon the course, believe it or
not.
You better have something leftfor the last hundred yards,
which means you did not run therest of the race at your
absolute peak.
You ran it measured, so you hadsomething left.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yes, larry, this has been so fun.
I just hear you calling forrecognition of our true identity
, which is not in what otherpeople say, but in who Christ
says we are our baptismalidentity.
I hear you calling for respectof.
This has been the wholeconversation respect of various
vocations and seasons of life,and gifting and and run the race
(58:33):
reasonably in community,keeping our eyes firmly fixed
upon Jesus, the author andperfector of our faith.
So this is.
This is fantastic.
If people want to kind ofconnect with you, hear more
about you and your ministry inthis season of life right now,
how could they do so, larry?
Speaker 3 (58:48):
Well, there's archives of messages.
If they go to northcoachurchcomThey go back quite a while to
our teaching team and the ones Ido.
And then I have a websitecalled LarryObsworncom.
It used to be called LarryOsworn Live.
It's not really live.
It's got an archive of stuffand how to connect with me and a
few things like that, but Idon't blog.
(59:09):
Right Again, i have felt God iscalling for me to be a resource
to things rather than do my ownthing.
But contact information youknow the various I think there's
10 books or something like that.
That kind of stuff's all there.
So those two places,northcoachurchcom and
larryosworncom Amen.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Thank you for your generosity of time, your wisdom,
larry, for investing in.
You know crazy Lutherans,conservative Lutherans and all
sorts of charismatic andeverywhere in between.
You are quite an example ofrunning the race very, very well
.
This is the AmericanReformation Podcast.
Please share and subscribe,comment wherever it is that you
(59:49):
take this in, and we promise tohave wonderful conversations
weekend and week out withamazing leaders, lovers of Jesus
, those that are trying to usetheir gifts to multiply
disciples in this crazy world inwhich we live, of which Jesus
is the King.
Thank you so much, larry, foryour time and wisdom today.
It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
You're welcome, thank you.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman, here.
Wherever you are receiving thisword today, whether it's
driving your car hanging out,maybe you're doing yard work
whatever it is that you're doing, i pray that the joy of the
Lord is your strength and thatyou're leaning into wanting to
grow.
Today, that humility is acharacteristic that you want to
put on.
The older we get, the more wemay know about certain things,
(00:58):
but that should lead us to say,man, i got a lot more to learn
about a lot of things.
And that that heart ofcuriosity should inspire us.
And I pray you're leaning intoday as I get to learn right
along with you, with Reverend DrLarry Osborn, a Kingdom
Ambassador and Teaching Pastorat North Coast Church, i've
heard about your church for many, many years.
I read a number of your books.
(01:19):
Brother, thank you forinvesting in so many churches
and leaders down through theyears.
Training is tenure as a seniorpastor.
North Coast grew from about 70adults to over 13,000.
Come on And we can attend atseveral seven local campuses.
That's wild.
Larry has a rare mix oftheological and practical wisdom
that's made him a mentor andmajor influencer to thousands of
(01:41):
pastors.
Many innovative conceptspioneered at North Coast are now
common practice, includingsermon based small groups.
I love that, larry.
We've been doing that for awhile.
Thank you for that.
Teaching teams Come onCollaborative sermon writing.
We double clicked on that atChrist Greenfield a long time
ago, larry.
I appreciate that.
Video venues and multi-sitecampuses.
(02:02):
His 10 books include StickyChurch Love It.
Sticky Teams Lead Like aShepherd Thriving and Babylon.
Oh, so much there AndAccidental Pharisees.
So thank you so much forjoining us today, larry.
How you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I'm doing good.
Thank you for having me andreading that little intro my mom
wrote.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
She's very kind, for sure.
So how are you praying?
How are?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
you praying for us.
He's got an exaggerationproblem, but other than that
we're good.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Not true.
The Lord has gifted you inmighty ways, and most especially
, your humility and your desireto just come alongside leaders
That's where we just align sowholeheartedly And the mission
of the United LeadershipCollective.
so many of those habits ofhealthy leaders and healthy
teams.
man, you've influenced methrough your research, through
(02:56):
your writing, exponentially.
So thank you, thank you.
So the standard question forthis podcast as you look at the
church in 2023, moving intothese kind of uncharted,
uncertain waters that many of usare navigating right now, how
are you praying for reformationin the American Christian Church
?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Larry Well, i got to be honest.
You know, yes, that question,and it's like well, I don't pray
for that on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, So that's that's something that I actually
.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I'd be there for, yeah, i just pray.
Lord, help me to do what youwant me to do today and have the
impact that you want me to havetoday, and pretty much that
will happen.
So, yeah, i just want to startthis whole thing off with total
honesty.
It looks well.
How are you regularly praying?
I go I'm not sure that's that'sworded, but it's.
(03:46):
It's very much a part of of whoI am and what I do when trying
to make that happen.
But my main thing is just hey,do your best every day, block
and tackle with your assignment.
Like David, we're prophets toour own generation And then in
the rear view mirror we'll seewhat God did with it.
(04:07):
But certainly everything I dois towards bringing people to
Jesus and hoping that some ofthe slide we've got everywhere
will be corrected and broughtback in alignment.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So That's awesome.
Tell your ministry story alittle bit deeper.
How did you fall in love withpastoring and then the local
church and wanting to pass passon kind of healthy
characteristics to so manychurch leaders?
How did that Genesis storyhappen, larry?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, tim, i started out I feel sometimes my life on
third base because I came from afamily that really honored the
Lord without being weird.
But the one thing I didn't likewas pastors and churches.
I was kind of the black sheep.
I had all of these goodinfluences.
(04:57):
The issues were mine.
Right before my senior in highschool I stepped over the line
and started following Jesusbecause the church we're in
unfortunately, my folks didn'tbuy that in value and character,
but it had more rules thanJesus and the Pharisees together
could ever come up with Andthat's part of why it was very
much a cultural thing, trying toreproduce the past.
(05:19):
And then what happened is I wasexposed to early move of what
was then called the Jesusmovement, really at ground zero.
About 400 people was all thatwere there then And my mind was
blown because I love thescripture right away when I was
reading the Bible one day andjust hit me, this is like not
(05:40):
religious history, this is realhistory.
I was reading Matthew and Ijust 180 turn around, but the
idea of being a pastor forget it.
But I started teaching myfriends whatever I was learning
and the house would fill up withthe Bible study and maybe I'll
become a professor or something.
And then in those early days Irealized, oh, i could be Larry
(06:01):
and be a pastor.
I didn't have to be.
What the pastor image was, ifyou will, and that's really my
calling into vocational ministrywas like I could get paid to be
Larry and teach Bible studiesand disciple people, which I was
doing in my spare time as I wasputting myself through college.
I was a journeyman retail clerkin the grocery business, had
(06:21):
two days off, taught Biblestudies in those days and shared
my faith with anything thatmoved, probably a little over
aggressively at that point.
And so that was it.
And then I had good mentors,like I said, besides the home.
That taught me it was okay tobe me that the goal was to do
what God called me to do.
The goal was not to grow somebig old church, though obviously
(06:44):
you'd rather succeed than failin the eyes of men.
So I was 28 when I came to NorthCoast, nancy was 24.
And we had a dream of spendinga lifetime in a place.
If the Lord allowed, you neverknow what his call is.
Completely Obviously, we gotthat one right, i guess, at this
point in our life and try toplant and pastor the church I'd
(07:10):
want to go to And I wassurprised lots of people want to
go the one I wanted to go torather than try to plant and
figure out how to make somethingbig and not be myself.
So that's my journey in thatshow.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Larry, that is so awesome.
You were part of the JesusRevolution man.
That's kind of insane.
You know a lot of folks and alot of listeners are a part of
the Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod and I think there's maybe
a skepticism among someconfessional kind of historic
church bodies about we couldjust say this was a
hyper-charismatic movement andobviously, with the movie coming
(07:45):
out and showing the good, badand ugly of that whole story,
what are some misconceptionsabout that Jesus movement?
You know your audience here.
A number of us are reallyconfessing kind of conservative
liturgical Christians.
What are some of thepreconceptions that people may
have when they hear that?
that you're like it wasn'ttotally like that.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Well, it wasn't crazy at all.
Theologically, i grew up in ahyper-sensationist church.
There were two things.
That were three things abenchmark, our rules and
regulations.
Anybody who didn't follow themwas lost.
We knew exactly the timetable ofthe Lord's return because we
(08:28):
were on the programmingcommittee, not the welcoming
committee, and anything of theHoly Spirit that wasn't in the
Bible but was present wassatanic.
So I went with this friend kindof like where am I going?
And all it was was an old balldude.
I thought it was an old balldude.
He was 42.
He stood up in front of about 3, 400 of us in this little room
(08:52):
and he taught 10 chapters of theBible, like a McGee would or
whatever, verse by verse throughthe Old Testament.
And then a group of guys got upand sang a song, like I might
hear on the radio, about Jesusand that was it.
That was not like all theweirdness and everything people
thought, and so it was very mucha Bible.
(09:14):
A great communicator could makethe King James of all things in
that era actually make sense tosomebody who didn't know
Shakespeare in English.
But yeah, i mean literallyverse by verse somewhere in the
Old Testament.
I don't know where it was.
It was just five years marchingthrough the Old Testament.
Now a lot of things spun offthat, but my personal opinion is
(09:37):
probably Chuck Smith is a mostimportant Christian, protestant
Christian leader of this century.
Because what you have to do isyou have to look at the ripple
effects.
I never received a prayerlanguage So I left that movement
because in the early days, sonow that movement tends to be
(09:58):
almost cessationist.
That was an important part andI felt like not angry.
I just don't have a place ofleadership here and I have
leadership gifts and teachinggifts as a college freshman So I
moved on.
But I say pretty much anybodywho has contemporary music today
, whose dress codes in churchare not Sunday best, who like to
(10:25):
teach the Bible in biggerchunks.
I mean, you start looking atthe ripple effects.
Nobody had any idea that thatwas a place where I went.
Oh, i could be Larry, it wasn't.
I could be Cabbage Apples, icould be Chuck Smith.
The people that learned theycould be them and people have no
idea are connected allthroughout and including your
(10:46):
tribe and your movement, there'smany, many aspects that the
door was opened.
It's kind of like Luther.
You go back to Luther's impacteverywhere and people have no
idea of the importance ofscripture, all kinds of
different things.
So, anyway, that's what it was.
(11:07):
For me is like wow, because itwas just so laid back.
You know, i just get up, teachthe Bible, live the best I can,
use my gifts, and it wasn't antianything at that stage, which
is very much who I am.
You know.
My bias and I kind of learnedit then was I have a track I run
(11:29):
on.
But if somebody's a brother orsister and going to be in heaven
, then I better treat them likea brother or sister because the
Lord, with his sense of humor,might make them my neighbor
forever.
If I want to fight, you know,kind of like you can stick to
fighting brothers in the roomuntil they learn to work it out,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, i love that.
I'd like to go deeper in termsof the sociological
ramifications of pastors fittinginto a respective mold, because
there are many who arelistening here and I've been a
part of, in 15 years of pastoralministry, formation of a number
(12:07):
of different types of pastorsAnd if there's one thing I could
pass on and I think you agreewith this is find your voice,
how God created you, theexperiences Jesus gave you, and
speak God's never-changing wordout of your own respective voice
.
Don't be Larry, don't be Tim,be Bob, be Sue in terms of
(12:31):
whatever it is you know.
So talk more about thosepreconceived notions of the mold
that a pastor fits in and howyou've kind of helped pastors
move beyond that.
In many respects It's so good.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Well, part of it is the body of Christ, for many of
us, has become nothing more thana theological construct.
But it's not a theologicalconstruct, it's an absolute
reality.
And if we really believe thebody of Christ is true, then
ears quit trying to make theeyes hear better.
And that's what we're going toand we learn to relax and become
(13:11):
what we are instead of beatingourselves up for what we're not.
You know, think of the evenclassic pastoral review process
and in any kind of tribe Whathappens is the focus is in what
you're not.
You know I have some verystrong wisdom gifts.
I can meet with people, seewhat's going on, tell them what
(13:32):
they ought to do.
That's very different than theempathy gift of long-term
counseling.
And I'm a truth teller and Ican grow in my EQ to know the
difference between saying thetruth and spreading the truth.
But I will never be, you know,the person who leads with gifts
(13:54):
of helps and mercy.
Now, i need to have helps andmercy.
I mean every single spiritualgift were to do those sort of
things.
But what I find is a lot ofpeople try to become what
they're not.
And again, think of thepastoral review, if a church has
that kind of thing.
They, you know they beat thesquirrel up because all that
does is climb and it can't flyAnd you know, the eagle doesn't
(14:17):
know how to run and it's justover and over.
We try to make ourselvessomething.
We're not Even churches.
The whole, the upside of thechurch growth movement was how
mission started by missionary inAmerica.
How in the world do Americanscall themselves Christians or
not even identified with a localchurch, Now morphed, like all
things do, into let's be biggerand better than everybody else
(14:40):
and compare ourselves.
But so it has a good side,calling people to involvement
with a body of believers and notjust an isolated faith journey.
But the downside is we have toomany pastors who think they
should grow.
In fact, tammy, we've all heardthis thing that healthy things
grow, right, pure baloney, purebaloney, the only thing that
(15:05):
grows as healthy through itsentire lifetime.
It's because it sounds likegeneral revelation, but the only
thing that grows throughout itsentire lifetime are the lowest
things in the food chain virus,bacteria, amoeba, all of that.
The higher you move up on God'screated order, the more you have
a season of growth andmultiplication.
That's how it works.
(15:26):
But people who have beenblessed with big L leadership
gifts.
Stand up and tell everybody youought to be me and if you are
healthy, you love Jesus, yourthing will grow and grow and
grow.
No, not only do the higherthings in God's created order
have a season of growth, theyhave a built in DNA.
Ants don't get bigger than ants.
(15:48):
Ants don't get bigger than dogs.
Elephants bigger than elephants.
Blue wells, blue wells.
The only way you get biggerthan your built in DNA is
steroids.
Steroids will kill you.
There's a lot of ministrysteroids out there because
people have not accepted that.
Maybe God's calling my life withthe shepherd faithfully a
smaller flock.
(16:08):
In every which way, if I canhelp people, who has God made
you to be?
Yeah, try to grow as a personand if you're a pastor, try to
grow your church.
There's a reason some PGAgolfer and a major league
baseball player, rugby player,whatever it is they have coaches
, because we always hit anartificial lid before our true
(16:32):
lid, but there's a true lid foreveryone and every organization,
and so my thing is figure outwhat God called you to do and do
that well, and quit shooting atthose who do something you
don't do well.
Well, because we're all justcastles in a kingdom.
We're franchises.
Starbucks doesn't care if Iquit going to one branch and go
(16:56):
to another one.
The branch manager does.
Starbucks doesn't even care ifI start going to Seattle's best,
because they own that too.
If we would have the mindset Ijust described, there'd be such
so much more joy and true unity,not uniformity, in ministry.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, you just scratch at the edge that I've had and
you articulated it so well.
First, corinthians 12,.
Romans, chapter 12, i meanwhere we find Paul, using this
metaphor of the body where wouldI be without the foot or where
would the head be apart from thehands?
I mean, that's it.
And that metaphor moves intothe pastoral ministry.
There's no one outside of Jesusthat can be the perfect
(17:38):
shepherd, so let's get off thethrone and put him back on the
throne and just say, hey, i needif pastors simply said, hey, i
got a very small set of giftsand I can clearly articulate
what those are.
But since I know that small setof gifts and how God hardwired
me, what fires me up, based onmy experiences, the community of
(17:58):
people around me helped mearticulate this.
I can articulate that I alsorealized, man, how much help I
need, how much I need the bodyof Christ to be the body of
Christ for me, to watch out formy blindsides and all of that.
If we just led with that sortof humility and then looked at
the churches down the road, notas competitors but complimentary
churches, all aimed at the sameaim of elevating the name of
(18:21):
Jesus, how much more fun.
You mentioned joy, but just howmuch more fun would it be to
have that big C, big kingdommindset, larry?
We don't do that well in ourtribe And I imagine many other
tribes don't do it well at all.
It's more comparison as akiller of joy man And pastors,
we take the cake.
We win that game, man, all thetime And it's really hurting our
(18:44):
gospel witness and really justthe joy of the never changing or
the infinite game I'd use thatthe infinite game of there's
always going to be more peoplewho need the gospel of Jesus
Christ, right From thisgeneration into the next.
So just enjoy the ride.
More is what I hear you saying.
Anything more to add there,larry?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Well, it's again.
The mindset creates truebiblical unity.
There are a lot of churches.
I have a unique bilingual gift,just by my background, i mean I
can move from one group to theother on the whole spectrum of
born again ministries And theone thing I notice is a lot of
(19:24):
them don't understand justbecause you wouldn't go to a
church doesn't mean they're notreaching people that you
couldn't reach.
So you know somebody goes.
Ah, i want to go all deep inthe Greek and the Hebrew.
Great, then you're going tohave a smaller crowd than the
Walmart will.
But all of those peoplewouldn't go to the Walmart
church.
You know they'll go to thesmall mom and pop or you know
(19:46):
the farm stand or whatever it is.
So when we get into this,there's so many cultural
languages out there And that'swhy we need the different forms
of the body of Christ.
And what I feel like happens ismost of us draw our line on the
church we would not go to.
I could never imagine my.
So we therefore think theyshouldn't be reaching people.
(20:09):
But the church you would not goto probably is reaching people
you could not reach.
And again, there are lines todraw.
Paul writes them about heresy.
The seven letters in the bookof Revelation say not everything
that calls its church itself achurch is a Jesus honoring
church.
(20:29):
But you know I got the memolonger ago that baby Jesus grew
up and he's King Jesus.
So he doesn't meet me as thispitbull or watchdog or up here,
and I think a lot of us thinkthat role is still open.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, sociology, what we like and the people we like
doing life with, overwhelms theexpansive theology of the
kingdom, and that's what I hearyou calling for.
Praise, praise, be to God, sotell us your story.
I mean sticky church, stickyteams sticky fingers sticky but
(21:09):
all sorts of sticky stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, that's the publisher's fault that those
three books have that title, notmine.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's cool, it's stuck .
So tell us the journey ofbecoming an expert on church
planning, multi sites and multicongregations.
You and I were having a chatabout how we have a multi site
here and you kind of made me myhead spin a bit, but in a good
way, about how you may not havemulti sites but within a
generation or so they could endup being more of a multi
(21:40):
congregational movement.
So help us understand churchplanning, multi sites, multi
congregations Larry.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Well, i felt for some reason that God's calling my
life was to help networks andnot create a network, and so
church planning just came out ofwanting to help church planners
.
I love the whole process ofchurch planning because you
don't know the winners from thelosers and you just kind of step
in and see what God is going todo And you know.
(22:09):
If you say, how did I become anexpert or whatever in that, i
don't know.
I mean part of it is this Goddecides the line that's in front
of you, asking you for advice,more than you decide who you
want to give advice to, and Ifound people doing that.
I think part of the reason interms of who I am, i've always
wanted to know.
From youth on.
I've always asked the whyquestion instead of the why
(22:32):
question.
I wanted to know what washappening, that I always was
interested in, why.
I kind of lived my life at30,000 feet observing things and
then see something I thinksignificant and take a deep dive
.
Well, i think most peopleactually live in the forest,
going from tree to tree andstudy it.
I don't know a lot about thetrees, i know a lot about the
(22:53):
forest and then deep dive Andthat is just ended up throwing
me into the church planningthing with a sense of
understanding how culture works,what the roadblocks are, what
the rockets to light, etc.
When it came to multi-site, it'swell you might know or your
(23:13):
listeners might or might notthat we were the first church to
do it, but it wasn't so much avision as a problem.
We had 3,000 people in a 500seat sanctuary.
I'm in my early 40s, i put aquarter in me, i'll preach
another sermon.
And then I had some anxietyattacks.
About the same time my wife hadsome cancer.
That was very serious at thetime.
(23:33):
She's doing fine now, by thegrace of God.
But my board said you can't addany more services And we were
not marketing or advertising.
We have never done that.
Not theological against it, noproblem with it, but we don't.
And so I felt like Jesus andMark, where he tries to go to
the other side of this sea ofGalilee for R&R and they follow
(23:55):
him like sheep without ashepherd.
And it was Lord.
We can't turn these people away, you're sending them.
So I was seeking for a way tohandle these people without any
more services And the crazy ideaof you know what video might be
able to be a siphon.
Instead of a punishment forover you know, an overflow room
is a punishment for being lateCould we actually create a
(24:18):
siphon that people would choosefirst?
And thus we started thedifferent styles and all that
and, unbeknownst to me solvingthat problem, churches from all
around the country came to seeit and they played with my toy
the wrong way.
They didn't reach differentdemographics with different
styles of worship and a video.
They cloned themselves inanother location.
(24:40):
So we were probably one of thefirst 10 multi-site churches,
not the first one, like a lot ofpeople think.
But what quickly hit me were acouple of things.
Number one there's a 20 minutedrive time barrier.
When people drive more than 20minutes to a site, there are two
(25:00):
things disappear Come and seeevangelism, the most powerful
way adults are reached in a waythat sticks, and youth
involvement, which is prettyimportant in this culture.
So thus began our philosophyWhenever we'd get a group of
people driving more than 20minutes, they could still come
to our mothership if they want.
But we want to plant.
(25:21):
We got a large enough group, acampus there, and then, over
time, i just began to realizethere's a big difference between
multi-site andmulti-congregational.
There's about a 90% overlap.
But the huge difference isculture is set from the stage or
the pulpit or the platform, andwhen everybody shares the same
(25:42):
message.
In our case it was always ateam, but when everybody hears
the same message, they have thesame culture.
But when you have differentcommunicators, the communicator
slowly morphs the culture intothat which fits them.
Nothing wrong with that.
But I would call when you havelive teachers.
It's really multi-congregational.
It's been around for 2000 years.
(26:03):
It's a great model.
Every denomination, every tribestarted with that.
A great leader or a greatteacher, great church.
People wanted to duplicate.
But we all know that over timethey begin to resist the
mothership's control.
Right, that's just how it is.
And then you have to figure away to balance those two things.
(26:25):
So that's why I say everymulti-congregational church will
eventually split off intodifferent churches, and nothing
wrong with that, it's wonderful.
Just people need to understandthat's different than multi-side
.
I've never seen a video venuechurch spin off.
It just dies.
And the spin off it's long-termchurch planning, gestation.
(26:48):
It might be when Moses dies.
Everybody thinks there's Joshua, it might be Moses and Joshua,
and then they split off.
They wait till real boom showsup.
I mean, i don't know how, whenand where, but I just know it's
got a different long-termtrajectory And both are great
And I spent a lot of timehelping churches with both
models.
But I think it's important theyunderstand the difference,
(27:11):
because the early evangelists ofthe multi-site movement got so
excited about it.
They combined everything intoone And that's like asking
attendance If it's SouthernBaptist, they're going to give
me their membership.
Now who shows up?
If it's Lutheran, you're goingto tell me adults, not kids.
If it's non-denominational, ihave to divide it by two.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I love it.
So, yeah, just to summarizewhat Christ Greenfield is about,
and we don't have manymulti-side slash,
multi-conrogational churches inour tribe.
But I am because it's acultural value here committed to
live preaching.
Nothing against video venue atall.
(27:54):
I'm committed to live preachingbecause we need more
proclaimers of the gospel, notfor our respective church but
for the church at large, andthey need training in that and
they need to have wise guideswho are coming alongside those
that have been doing it for awhile.
So that's why we're committedto that.
But what I hear you saying is,within a generation it could be
(28:15):
me or some other leaders thatcome and go.
We should almost plan for thembeing released from, say, the
Christ Greenfield brand, etcetera, and to go and have that
separate and that separationwithin whether it's a decade,
couple decades, whatever mylifetime that's a normal
separation that we should not beafraid of but plan
(28:38):
strategically for.
Is that correct, larry?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, and if I can push back on you on your
podcast, i really see it as aboth and strategy.
So when we had there areleaders who teach and teachers
who lead or preachers, okay,what's your primary gift?
And so when we have somebodywho's got a gift of teaching, we
(29:02):
haven't do it.
And one of the pushbacks onmulti-site video was always you
need to raise up teachers.
And I was always like, well,you learn to teach by teaching,
not just on a stage in asanctuary, and North Coast is
living proof of that.
We have teachers out the kazoothat speak at major conferences
and camps, that don't speak onour main stage because we set
(29:25):
them up to teach And plus ourteaching team means I think this
year six different people willhave preached at the main stage.
But what we also have is wehave some people whose teaching
gift is larger than theirpreaching gift, and so, by
pastoring and leading andshepherding a multi-site, some
(29:47):
of ours are well over a thousand, almost 2,000.
And their gift would have been400.
And so here's the thing to hearthat people don't hear.
When people you can't makepeople go somewhere, we don't
have a parish where we canassign it.
And so the truth of the matteris people come to North Coast to
listen to Chris Brown and LarryOsborne And Christopher Hilken
(30:10):
was there for a while, the guynamed Mike Hurley just different
key people.
So they're going to drive fareven when we plan a campus near
them with live teaching.
So we're trying to break the20-minute barrier with our
videos.
That's what we're trying to do.
So if you must hear us, great,we're going to come to you, and
if we have a communicator, we'llplan them across the street.
(30:32):
We do not see a conflictbetween the two, and so what I
tell a church is if you'rehaving significant numbers of
people driving more than 40minutes, then take a video to
them, because they're drivingmore than 40 minutes is really
saying they're coming for theworship experience And, let's be
(30:54):
honest, more often than not,the communicator, because when
the communicator changes, theystop doing that.
So let's bring it to them Now.
Our strategy of growing webetter raise up leaders and we
better raise up communicators.
So it's really a both and, andI think a lot of people don't
see that that we would be asdeeply committed to raising up
(31:17):
the next generation of teachers.
But we don't.
Our biggest room is 850.
We didn't want to build two and3,000 seat places where people
came like it was an event, sothat was our.
okay, we're going to beat youat the game because I can't help
it.
If people want to come here andbe teach.
They're like, don't blame me.
The thing got big.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So, yeah, what I hear yousaying is differentiating the
teaching gift from the maybestage, communication, preaching
gift, and there should be realand in our tribe this is under
the one office actually of holyministry, so called pastoral
(31:59):
office, but it's justrecognizing the unique gifts
that God is given.
Because, i totally agree withyou, i am okay at teaching when
I preach and or when I lead andcast vision, which happens, you
know, on the platform or pulpit,like that's something that I
lean into and comes verynaturally to me, preparing a
(32:21):
conversation for a deep dive,exegetical, and so like.
There are other men and womenwithin our congregation who are
much more adept at that work AndI think we should create lanes
to recognize that within thechurch and not diminish it
because, just real time, rightnow it is testing with the
multi-carrigational approach,using your language, who has?
(32:45):
because fewer than we wouldlike to admit have that
communication, preaching giftand that's not something we
should be ashamed of, it'ssomething we should just
recognize.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Larry anything else to say there?
Yeah, if gifts are gifts, Yeah,that whole passage starts out.
We don't decide what gift wehave, where to use it or the
measure of the gift.
So, you know, every now andthen there's a you know, cut
down the tall poppy.
People ought to be ashamed of alarge gift And, frankly, the
(33:19):
video venue multi-site model Idon't I'm not comfortable with
is the one that's simply tryingto grow the church bigger.
Again.
Our motivation is not let's getNorth Coast bigger, Let's, you
know, go put our our tat onevery city.
It's let's stop people fromdriving more than 20 minutes,
(33:41):
because we're radicallycommitted to discipleship, which
does not happen when you go toan event.
So that's, that's really.
That's the missing piece thatpeople did not understand about
why we stuck with video and thenhad no idea we did both.
In fact, we've had a hugecollege ministry and he wanted
(34:04):
he's a teacher He wanted toplant a church and he planted it
just a, I don't know two milesfrom my house, right near us,
And we platform and said itwasn't a North Coast church.
Few things.
He wants to do different.
If you want to be a part of it,go in his tribe.
He won the church plant of theyear award a couple of years ago
(34:25):
We're involved with it gave himthe same money as if it had our
name.
So we're very much open-handed.
But I I just don't understandwhy people want bigger and
bigger audiences Plus.
That's the other reason we werecommitted to a teaching team.
A one teacher multi-sitecollapses when that teacher
(34:46):
moves, But a multi-team wherethe team is strong, then that
person can move on and life goeson.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
That's so powerful.
Yes, yes.
So pastoring in 2023, you'rewalking alongside a lot of
leaders and you've stepped downfrom kind of your key
influencing role there at NorthCoast and are doing a lot of.
You know pastoring pastors Andas you're walking alongside men,
what are the greatestchallenges and opportunities?
(35:19):
But?
but lean into the challengesright now, As you see pastoring,
I would say in a post COVIDworld, everything changed, Larry
, for us.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I mean we, we're Lewis and Clark now.
We are Lewis and Clarkuncharted.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, we don't know, like we thought we thought the
ocean was going to we.
We missed by a couple thousandmiles about where this ocean,
the Pacific, is, and so nowwe're ditching the canoes and
we're we're hiking into theseuncharted territories and, man,
we're going to need a lot ofhelp.
So how well I mean just makesthem general broad brush How
well are pastors doing in theseuncharted waters right now from
(35:55):
your perspective?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Well, first of all, i think they're doing better than
the surveys say, because it'sall about the yes a question.
So I have a a good friend ofmine is nationally known as a
researcher, and I'm alwayspushing back that you're not a
leader, you're a researcherbecause you get the right
information but you don't knowwhat it means, and so people go.
This huge percentage of pastorsare ready to quit.
(36:17):
Well, the question is duringthe last few years of you
thought of quitting?
huge number of people will sayyes, because there's been hard
times.
There's hard times, but if youchange the question to in the
last two years, have you doneanything towards moving and
walking away from vocationalministry, such as investigating
(36:40):
another job, interviewing foranother job, et cetera, not
talking to your spouse about howhard it is and I'm ready to
quit then the numbers go waydown right.
So I think it's been difficult,but I don't think it's a panic
mode that people make it out tobe.
Well, here's a few of the thingsthat have changed significantly
, and one of them's not COVID,and it's like people would blame
(37:04):
COVID, or they blame the Trumpelection or whatever, for the
divisiveness in our culture, andthat's not what caused it If
you step back and look at 30,000feet.
What caused it was the growthof choice and the lack of a
shared experience.
So we've always had echochambers.
They used to be geographic And,you know, somebody from the
(37:26):
deep South thought people in theNortheast were either stupid or
immoral and the Northeastthought that of the deep South
right.
So echo chambers have alwaysbeen around, but now they're by
choice And we have, you know,going back to FM radio, cable
television now the podcast andthe news, whatever you want to
(37:48):
listen to, you choose your echochamber.
you have your social media.
If you have that, you virtualsignal things and we just go
down a rabbit hole, assuminganybody disagrees with us as
either stupid or immoral Andtherefore everybody's angry And
we have turned away from God.
You know there's a dimmerswitch principle.
You obey the light you have.
(38:09):
Proverbs says the light getsturned up higher and higher the
path of the righteous, like therising of the noon day sun.
Romans one tells us a culturethat rejects God gets darker and
darker And most people thinkthe bottom is sexual decadence.
But it isn't.
It's the next bottom is sexualdecadence If you actually read
Romans one, 18 to 32, and we hitthat in the sixties.
(38:31):
Sexually transmitted diseasehas put a little halt on it and
we're now full bore back downthat one.
But in, in, i think, it's,versus 28 to 32,.
At the end he says therefore,god gave them over to a depraved
mind to do what ought not bedone.
And then he starts a list.
Everything on that list isrelational destruction, gossip,
slander, what we would callcancel culture, no mercy, no
(38:54):
grace, disobedient to pain.
There's not one thing that'snot relational destruction.
And so part of what we'reliving in now we blame on
politics and we blame on COVIDis the end result of everybody
choosing the little echo chamberthey want to live in and
therefore being angry, plus thething God told us would happen
(39:16):
to a culture.
So we've got an angrier, moreisolated culture than any of us
have ever seen.
And it's, it's.
It's exponentially increasingin its vehemence and it's I mean
.
Just take a lot.
We gossip and slander are calledinvestigative reporting today,
(39:39):
whether it's MSNBC or Fox.
You want to read every singleday it's all you know about the
other side and how evil andstupid they are, and then deep
dives into Trump's collusion orBiden's stuff or whatever it
would be.
It's, it's, it's almost.
I mean, we need to know thebasics, but we dig into all the
gossip and slander, and it'seven in Christian circles.
(40:01):
What's the number one podcastin Christian circles?
The Rise and Follow Marcel.
People spending hours listeningto one group of people who are
passing on gossip.
Gossip is information you don'tknow the person you don't need
to be a part of, and slander,you know, trying to make you
think worse of the person, whichare horrific sins And and we
(40:25):
just it's like sugared poison.
We listen to it left and right.
You know pastors tell me so, iso I I'm learning the dangers of
being a celebrity pastor andI'll tell them.
Don't worry, you won't be, butyou're filling your soul with
negative like I need to knowDavid's slept with Bathsheba.
I don't need to know how manytimes, of what position.
(40:46):
I don't need to know exactlywhat pair of binoculars he was
using, and it's just so.
One of the biggest things weface is a culture that's trigger
happy, with anger beingactivated, being.
You know whatever it is youwant to call triggered.
We haven't had that before.
And then our, our own souls arechasing.
(41:07):
You know we're just sippingthat same same poison ourselves.
I think you know the fact we'rein this into Romans, godless
culture.
We are totally post Christianand a lot of us haven't fully
accepted that.
We keep thinking that that whatwe're doing is honored in the
(41:27):
eyes of people.
So, like North Coast has somereally cool swag coats, jackets,
you know, all that kind ofstuff, from conferences to just
whatever our life groups, thewhole bed.
And I'm not the lead guyanymore, so you know I have
opinions that don't always turninto action.
But if I was a lead guy, what Iwould do right now is say let's
(41:49):
no longer ever have North Coastchurch on our swag, because in
this world there's aconversation stopper.
Let's call it North Coast,which would be a conversation
starter.
Right, it's, and I don't thinka lot of pastors and people
understand that.
We're in Rome again.
We're not as bad as Rome was,though we think we are, but
(42:12):
we're in Rome again.
Everybody's angry and we'redrinking the same relational
destruction and call aninvestigative reporting in
Christian circles and politicalcircles and wondering why our
soul is sick.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Breach Larry And I know you weren't preaching,
you're just talking from theheart, but couldn't agree more.
And I, just as a parish pastorright now, man, i get pulled,
you know, and I don't it doesn'tbother me necessarily, but I
got members thinking we ought tobe more, you know, for certain
(42:53):
things in our culture on one endof the political spectrum and
on another, you know, and I justwanna be Jesus guy, in
relationship with Christ and inrelationship with others.
I don't know, this is rooted inthe fall.
By the way, this is deep in theGenesis three story, right, i
mean Adam and Eve.
Eve had been I forget where Iheard this but Eve had been sent
(43:16):
by God as a partner, co-creator, co-created in the image of God
by the creator, to be not justa helper but a kind adversary,
one who would question him butwould stay connected to him, one
that would love and encourage,compliment him.
(43:40):
And I don't think in our culturetoday, from the highest of
positions to just even in thehome, we have the, i guess,
character of humility andcuriosity about ourself, the
self-awareness to say, hey, man,i need kind adversaries, people
that disagree agreeably with me, as we and I need to do the
(44:02):
same for others, and it's waybeyond the human mind, wants to
make it way more simple.
But it's way beyond politicsand social media and all of that
.
There's a deeper, underlyingcause to our division, and it is
our wrestle with the flesh andour wrestle with our inability
(44:26):
to connect deeply with others.
It's all about relationship,and therefore our tribes become
ever increasingly, increasinglysmall, until we get to the point
of isolation.
I mean isolation is killing somany people today, larry.
And this is to round it back tothe role of the church.
I mean the church has to be aplace where people of all
different stripes and sizes, imean everybody, all different
(44:49):
walks of life, say hey, here wecome, recognizing two things
There's a Creator.
He's revealed Himself in HisSon Jesus.
His Holy Spirit lives within usand we're not the Creator.
We need a lot, a lot of help,and so this is an open place for
you to come and receive and tooffer your gifts as the body of
Christ grows more and more upinto Jesus, who is our head.
(45:10):
That sounds a lot better thanhaving to take stances.
This is our type of church.
No, we're a church for allpeople.
Say more there, larry.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, well, part of the problem is Paul tells
Timothy a church planter, andthen the pastor in Ephesus right
, he left him in Ephesus.
He reminds him about the farmer, the soldier and the athlete,
and what he reminds him of thesoldier is he doesn't get
involved in civilian affairs.
And part of the problem rightnow that I see over and over is
(45:40):
everybody wants to hijack thechurch for very good things
instead of the main thing, andpeople don't seem to understand
that salads are really good.
But out here in Californiathere's a thing called the
In-N-Out Burger And you go toIn-N-Out Burger when you want a
burger, fries or a drink.
If you want a salad, you gosomewhere else.
If you want chicken, you gosomewhere else And like, for
(46:05):
instance I have deep politicalpassions and I have deep
concerns culturally aboutcertain things, but the moment I
signed up to be a soldier ofthe cross and was placed in the
role of being, i don't know,lieutenant Colonel, colonel or
low-level general, whatever itis I am in his army.
Civilian affairs are not on myagenda And I think a lot of
(46:27):
pastors forget that.
They keep trying to pleaseeverybody.
They keep seeing real problemsout there.
One of the good story from theGospels is Jesus in the book of
Mark kind of his first day ofministry.
All these people get healed Andthe next day there's a long
line of people early in themorning lined up with legit,
(46:49):
absolutely need to fix needs.
People had got their friendsbecause of the things that had
happened the day before.
Jesus had got up early in themorning and prayed.
They couldn't find him.
Hey, there's a long line.
They go and get him and he sayslisten, we're supposed to move
on.
That's what the Lord wants.
The parallel for all of us iswe have been given an agenda and
(47:10):
our agenda is not fix everyneed.
That's what we think it is.
And Jesus came to heal, came todo kingdom work and the kingdom
of God showed up through him,but his real job was to go to
the cross.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
And so what I think a lot of pastors do is we see a
need and we think our job is tofill every need, not to ask is
our name on it and is thisreally important?
but not the most importantthing, because every single day
there's coming down the track anew political issue, a new you
(47:50):
name what it is cultural need,whatever, and I just cannot play
whack-a-mole and fix them andstill fulfill the great calling
that I have, which is leadpeople to Jesus who don't know
him and therefore come into thechurch with all kinds of jacked
up ideas, values and views, andthen I'm to baptize them and
(48:10):
then I'm to train them.
Keep at it until they fullyobey everything you taught.
That's a great commission.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, exactly, and Satan is having a heyday today,
still killed, destroyed,dividing, fear on overdrive.
And that's not what the perfectlove of Christ cast out fear.
So praise be to God.
We live above the fray, we setour minds and hearts where
Christ is and we understand thestory of which we're apart.
Nothing that is going on in theworld right now should be
(48:38):
overly shocking, right?
Jesus said I will come again tomake all things new.
Until then, it's gonna getworse before it gets better.
So just have that mindset andbring light to dark places.
So, yeah, that is the macronarrative story that I think, as
we, as confessing Christians,we were centered in the never
(48:59):
changing scriptures, we followthe works and the ways of Jesus,
we need to orient ourselvesjust more around that macro
story of creation to recreationon the last day, and then just
kind of hmm, it's gonna beinteresting to see how this
works out in the world.
I just have that kind of okay,god, you're in control and I'm
(49:19):
not necessarily condemning anindividual.
There are certain ideologiesand things that are not of you,
lord, and I'm just gonna connectit to your word.
We'll talk about those thingsthat are connected there, but
I'm not gonna get drawn into thefearful fray which is toxic.
Today The church must live inthat, and it's a tension filled
middle path road.
You know.
We make to use a law gospellens for us in our preaching and
(49:44):
we're called to make thecomfortable uncomfortable and
the uncomfortable because of oursin, comforted by the mercy and
grace of God and the person inwork of Christ Jesus.
And so I think it's a great dayto be a leader in the local
church.
I don't think it's a day thatwe should fear.
The day of Christ's return isquicker as soon or now than when
we first believe.
(50:04):
So anything more to add aboutthe story of which we're apart
and how that should shape theway we lead in the church here
in 2023, Larry.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
You know, as I think I mentioned earlier, i'm on the
welcoming committee, not theprogramming committee.
As far as the Lord's return,you know I got the balloons and
the party things.
I'm ready to go if, when andwhatever.
But I have though I don't knowall the details of the book of
Revelation or prophetic passages.
I have read the end and Last.
(50:33):
I look we win.
And so if I know the finalscore, i shouldn't be too, and I
know that we win.
I shouldn't be too panicked inthe third quarter.
If and when I feel behind Andto me that changes everything.
If I really believe we win,that doesn't mean I just set
back and it's going to takeplace And I'm supposed to play
the game.
(50:53):
But panic and despair are not apart of the thing.
I might not like it, i might beconfused.
The bottom line is hey, thegame's over, i'm playing the
replay, we're going to win, andwhat that also means is I'm not
a spiritual warfare.
The Bible uses spiritual warfareabout the flesh and the spirit.
(51:15):
We use it about culture, andwhen we use the language of
spiritual warfare and fear, wehunker down and we want to wipe
out our enemies.
When we use spiritual warfareinternally and the Great
Commission as our compass.
We don't want to wipe out, wewant to win over.
Now, part of the problem todayis we stop trying to win over,
(51:36):
we just try to comfort.
And so tolerance biblicallyshould be you have the freedom
to be wrong and we've turned itinto everybody's right, which is
ridiculous.
But it's either everybody'sright or I have no tolerance And
I go oh gee, when I first cameto Jesus I had some jacked up
(51:56):
values and ideas And I'm glad hedidn't wipe me out for him, but
I'm also glad he.
You know, i think a churchshould become as you are, but
for God's sake, don't stay thatway.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Right, that's right.
This last question here,brother, we could talk for a
long time.
I can't wait to learn with youin different settings in the
coming months and years.
But what are the top habits forin our tribe and many that
there are pastors who arenearing retirement or refirement
into a different season of life?
What are some of those tophabits for church leaders that
(52:29):
run in ministry for decades?
I want to be my dad.
I'm a third generation pastorLarry.
My dad ran very, very well, isdoing new things now in a new
season of life.
I know that's where you findyourself is as well, but you've
run that race faithfully and youkind of look at the.
You look at the media and anumber of different maybe
celebrity pastors who don'tfinish well.
(52:50):
I don't think again.
That tells the full story ofpastors who are finishing well
in a very different context, butgo ahead.
Speaker 3 (52:56):
Most finish well.
I agree The news, only there'snever been a story, even in
Christian journals, about theone who finished well.
It's always the one whofinished poorly, because it's
boring.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
It's kind of boring, so talk, i want to be boring man
.
Help me run the next 25, 30years.
you know really, really wellWhat are those habits.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Well, i think some of the things are mindsets and
habits.
One of them is those who do areally good job with their
family, their friends orcommunity and their church are
people who do not have a wound,a father wound, something wound
of insecurity.
They have nothing to prove andno one to impress.
(53:35):
That's a great goal.
A mentor used to talk aboutthat.
My father raised me with thatkind of value system And I
remember just, will I ever getthere?
And I think somewhere in my mid30s I woke up and I go no, i'm
still driven, but I it reallywas like I don't have anything
to prove and I don't haveanybody to impress And the
(53:56):
freedom that comes with that isunbelievable.
And I know people who are atthe absolute top of the heap and
they still have things to proveand people to impress And they
don't realize the more they'redriven, the more that people
don't like them, the more thatpeople put them in a weirdo box,
if you will.
So that would be the firstthing.
(54:16):
I think another practice isknowing the difference.
If you're going to run the longrace, you got to know the
difference between the regularseason and the playoffs.
You play hurt in the playoffsbecause it's an opportunity that
might never come again.
If you play hurt in the regularseason, you won't make the
playoffs, and I think a lot ofpeople and again it goes back to
what are you trying to prove.
(54:37):
I mean relax, jesus on yourside.
He says if you're weary, heavyladen, come to him.
His burden is light and even inhard times his steering guide
is easy.
If he pulled you into thosehard times, if you go into those
hard times with that as yoke,then yeah, it's going to be
incredibly hard.
We've all been there through areally hard season that God put
us in and we're going.
(54:58):
That was hell, but it was a loteasier than I ever thought it
would be.
Well, that was because we wereunder his yoke.
So I think a lot of peopledon't know the difference
between regular season andplayoffs And they also don't
know the difference betweencalling and potential.
One of the great goddesses ofour culture is potential.
The worst life lived is thelife that doesn't reach full
potential.
(55:18):
You could be a first round NBAdraft pick, third, fourth pick
in the nation in the NBA, andyou have a six year career as a
journeyman and everybody sayswhat a tragedy.
Dude, you just lived everylittle hoopster's dream, but
because of this thing calledpotential, you think you're a
failure.
(55:38):
The only one who lives theirfull potential has the ability
to, according to FirstCorinthians seven, is a single
person.
The moment you get married, youhave a divided mind to please a
spouse and to please the Lord,And then you have children to
raise them, nurture, admonitionof the Lord, et cetera.
And a lot of us don't understand, especially English speaking
(55:59):
people, that we're called tofulfill our calling, not a
potential, because of a weirdparable that in the English
language an amount of money,called a talent, is part of a
parable, and so our firstillustration of that passage is
what do you do with the skillsyou have in talents And no other
(56:21):
language group.
It's like illustration number20, that's a parable about what
do you do with your possessions.
And we live in a day whereeverybody thinks if I could, i
should, and God didn't call usto do that.
You know that's like that.
Not understanding thatdifference is massive.
It has allowed me to say no toso many things I could have done
(56:43):
that would have made a kingdomimpact, but they would have made
me a worse dad.
They would have made me a worsehusband and a worse friend.
And, at the end of the day,every pastor needs to know
you're an interim, whatever roleyou're in, but you're a
permanent spouse, you're apermanent father or mother,
you're a permanent friend, andwe make the decisions backwards.
(57:09):
If my name's on it, i'll do it.
My name's on it, no, i won't.
And that has been incrediblyimportant for me.
And the last thing I'd say isthey know the ability to do
their best under thecircumstances, not their best.
They know you're doing yourbest, or it's always more, but
under the circumstances, do yourbest and take a nap, you know
(57:32):
Yeah.
I love it, jesus, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll hit the
kind of age I hit right now,with the kind of energy and
impact I have right now, insteadof just gasping across the
finish line, i'll tie it up withthis.
I had two of my kids who randistance, and if you're going to
run successfully distance atstate, national type levels,
(57:56):
you're not going to leave it allon the course, believe it or
not.
You better have something leftfor the last hundred yards,
which means you did not run therest of the race at your
absolute peak.
You ran it measured, so you hadsomething left.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yes, larry, this has been so fun.
I just hear you calling forrecognition of our true identity
, which is not in what otherpeople say, but in who Christ
says we are our baptismalidentity.
I hear you calling for respectof.
This has been the wholeconversation respect of various
vocations and seasons of life,and gifting and and run the race
(58:33):
reasonably in community,keeping our eyes firmly fixed
upon Jesus, the author andperfector of our faith.
So this is.
This is fantastic.
If people want to kind ofconnect with you, hear more
about you and your ministry inthis season of life right now,
how could they do so, larry?
Speaker 3 (58:48):
Well, there's archives of messages.
If they go to northcoachurchcomThey go back quite a while to
our teaching team and the ones Ido.
And then I have a websitecalled LarryObsworncom.
It used to be called LarryOsworn Live.
It's not really live.
It's got an archive of stuffand how to connect with me and a
few things like that, but Idon't blog.
(59:09):
Right Again, i have felt God iscalling for me to be a resource
to things rather than do my ownthing.
But contact information youknow the various I think there's
10 books or something like that.
That kind of stuff's all there.
So those two places,northcoachurchcom and
larryosworncom Amen.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Thank you for your generosity of time, your wisdom,
larry, for investing in.
You know crazy Lutherans,conservative Lutherans and all
sorts of charismatic andeverywhere in between.
You are quite an example ofrunning the race very, very well
.
This is the AmericanReformation Podcast.
Please share and subscribe,comment wherever it is that you
(59:49):
take this in, and we promise tohave wonderful conversations
weekend and week out withamazing leaders, lovers of Jesus
, those that are trying to usetheir gifts to multiply
disciples in this crazy world inwhich we live, of which Jesus
is the King.
Thank you so much, larry, foryour time and wisdom today.
It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
You're welcome, thank you.
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