September 20, 2023 • 51 mins
Ever thought about the role of gospel in the American Christian Church's journey towards reformation? Or considered the potential hurdles institutional and systemic control might pose to pastors and leaders? That's what we're tackling in this conversation with Phil Klopke, co-director of PLI's thousand young leaders. We're highlighting Phil's experiences of living in East Nashville, the most liberal district in Tennessee, and his insights into equipping all people with giftedness to lead in the kingdom. Engage with us as we discuss the dangers of missing the gospel and how to effectively communicate with those who hold different beliefs.
Phil takes us through his personal journey of faith and leadership development, sharing the transformation and re-orientation of how Jesus interacts in the lives of those who participate in PLI's programs. We also touch on church formation and leadership training, talking candidly about the challenges church leaders and pastors face when trying to integrate young leaders into congregational life. Phil's experiences at conventions and his words of wisdom for church leaders are a must-listen for anyone passionate about strengthening church leadership.
The third part of our conversation focuses on developing leaders for community impact, emphasizing the power of storytelling in shifting perspectives and cultures. You'll be inspired by Phil's recounting of a leader who used his passion for pizza to serve the homeless, creating a unique form of discipleship. We also discuss unity and dialogue within the church, the significant role of women, and the importance of contextual hospitality when administering the Lord's Supper. Lastly, we reflect on the necessity of taking care of our physical health as a spiritual discipline, with Phil sharing his personal journey towards healthier living. Join us for a thought-provoking and heartwarming discussion, sure to challenge and inspire you in your own journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here and today, I have thedistinct honor and privilege of
getting to hang out with a brandnew friend that was referred to
me.
I've been connected to thePastoral Leadership Institute
for a number of years and Ithink it I don't remember who it
was that said man.
You got to meet this PhilKlopke, and so he and I have
(00:58):
been hanging out the last 15minutes.
You are in for a treat today.
Not only is he the husband andfather of two young boys,
married to his wife Kierie hearda little bit of her story,
which is fantastic but he's he'sworking with PLI's thousand
young leaders as theirco-director.
So welcome Phil.
How are you doing today, buddyDude?
I'm great Happy to be here.
(01:19):
Thanks for having me on man,yeah, happy to have you.
So how are you praying?
Kind of a standard question onthis podcast.
How are you praying forReformation in the American
Christian Church, bro?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I love the question and love that you're
focusing on that.
I don't know Like my first gutreaction I don't know if it's
like a deep or I don't know whatit would look like for your
listeners but I'm praying thatwe don't lose sight of the, the
centrality of the gospel.
I continue to talk to a lot offriends, brothers, out there.
Oftentimes in our conversationsit seems like we're
(01:49):
overcomplicating things andwe're so we're.
We're fighting on secondarytheological issues, the culture
wars.
So I don't want us to losefocus on the simple gospel, what
that means for our neighbors,coworkers and friends.
And I live in Nashville,tennessee, and I think the first
thing that comes to mind whenyou think of Nashville is I live
(02:10):
in the Bible Belt, which istrue, but in my neighborhood I
live in East Nashville and it'sprobably the most liberal
district in all of the state ofTennessee.
In fact, if you were to jointhe East Nashville Facebook page
, you would see that there arepeople that will celebrate and
rejoice when churches close downNow our churches, when they
(02:32):
close down to become concertvenues, workshops, coffee shops,
recording studios, not sayingthat's pretty cool, but people
are very happy and they rejoicebecause another place, what they
would perceive as judgmental isclosing down.
So we have the highest densityof the LGBT community in our
neighborhood.
And so, again, why do I sharethis?
(02:54):
My friends and the people thatlive in my neighborhood are not
necessarily all Lutheran.
There's Presbyterians, there'sBaptists, it feels like there's
a few of us.
Right, we share the commongospel essentials together,
which makes it that much moreimportant as we're reaching
neighbors, neighbors, friends,the people that are here, and
(03:16):
it's important that we don'tlose sight of that.
So I think we get caught upwith other issues and I'm sure
you have many conversationsaround those.
But then the second thing, too,is that we have a Reformation
for the people of God.
Personally, from I'm amazedfrom a theological perspective,
especially as a Lutheran, thatwe talk about the priesthood
believers but we don'tnecessarily always live it out,
(03:40):
and so I love us to see how weequip all people, the priesthood
believers, and how they canlead out their giftedness,
because there's so manydifferent kingdom opportunities
that are out there.
So those two things.
I think we can dive deeper ifyou like, but that's what I'm
praying for.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Man Phil, you're my boy, dude.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That was so good.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So let's do two threads here.
This simple gospel.
There are people who will saywell, you dig into that.
You're going to get intosyncretism and unionism, you're
going to get into compromising,and those are Reformed brothers
and sisters and Armenianbrothers and sisters.
They've totally missed it.
(04:26):
You're going to become aBaptist.
You hang out with thoseBaptists too long, phil, you're
going to become a Baptist orReformed and you're going to end
up trying to make the gospel ofJesus Christ into a work if you
hang out with these people fortoo long.
So just watch out if you go inthat direction.
I'm playing devil's advocatehere, but this is very real and
you live in a liberal community,man, you're going to take on
(04:48):
some of those liberal tendencies, don't you believe that in the
beginning God created the maleand female and His image.
He created them, and folks youhang out with may have different
opinions.
The gospel of Jesus Christcould be watered down.
You could become anti-nomian,bro, if you hang out with them
too long.
Is there any such need?
Is there a need for the law?
(05:09):
So how do you nail in to answersome of those questions?
And on the simple gospel ofJesus Christ, sorry to go kind
of dark there for a second.
But those questions are realwhen you start to lean in.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
No, you're good.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Let's just focus on the gospel it's really good and
that's fair and I appreciate thequestion.
I think part of the problem iswe start getting into those
different variables and then weforget about the relationship
that's in front of us.
We forget about actually havinga conversation with them
because, guess what, they mightactually learn something from
some of the secondary issuesthat you and I hold on to.
(05:42):
And then we start unifying in away where and I'm not saying
maybe theologically we unify,but I know they deeply care for
my neighbor, I know they deeplycare for my community, I know
they deeply care that the nameof Jesus is known in East
Nashville, and so that'simportant and I think there can
be some sharpening there.
I've learned a lot.
It's really helped a lot of mytheological convictions and I
(06:06):
realize I'm much more of aLutheran than I am today, than I
was prior, without having thoseconversations with those
brothers and sisters.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I agree there's some stories of Jesus.
I love this podcast becauseit's just honing on Jesus.
Gospel equals Jesus, the workof Jesus, the way of Jesus, the
words of Jesus.
Let's just focus in on Jesus.
Can you think of, off the topof your head, a story or two of
Jesus where he enters intorelationship with people that
(06:35):
you and I would theologicallydisagree with?
I love hearing these stories.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, I mean, there's several stories, right, and I
constantly think of thePharisees, right, and I'm not
going to talk about a specificone, but oftentimes, when Jesus
is addressing Pharisees andcountering some of their debates
, the one thing that comes tomind is especially like growing
(07:04):
up Lutheran is like man.
Are there fairsuticaltendencies that I hold on to?
Are there things that I'm veryguilty of and I need repentance
of?
And I grew up Lutheran.
I grew up my dad being a pastor, my mom being a Lutheran school
teacher, administrator,principal, and I got used to
just kind of accepting for whatthings were, and so I just look
(07:28):
at those types of relationshipsthat Jesus had with some
Pharisees, right, you know, youthink of Nicodemus, what that
looked like and how his heartwas changed, and so I think
they're, and I just think ofthose people that believe in the
same central core beliefs thatwe do.
And if we're not willing tohave that conversation with them
(07:49):
, how was the point?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So truth, truth, I think, of Jesus and his
disciples, and you know, theyfrom all ends of the spectrum,
from Matthew the outsider taxcollector to Peter the zealot
and then the others kind ofbeing within those, within those
continuums.
They have a tendency to developthis kind of legalistic,
pharisaical tendency.
(08:13):
Do you remember the story of?
We heard there was a guy outthere casting out demons in your
name, jesus?
Well, let's go.
We go tell him to stop.
He can't be doing that.
You know he's not connected tous.
And Jesus says, no, let himkeep doing it.
If he's not against us, youknow he's for us and he's
obviously for us right here.
So do we have that sort of wordwe use around here as
theological hospitality forthose who are outside of our
(08:35):
Lutheran confessional tradition?
And then we narrow in on theperson and work of Jesus, which
we all agree on, the early creedof the early Christian church
with Jesus' Lord, done, jesus'Lord, there's no, there's no
other.
So I, I 100% agree with your,your work, and I have found the
exact same thing.
The more I enter intotheological hospitality type
(08:57):
conversations with those who areCatholic to charismatic and
everywhere in between, the more,not the less, the more I
appreciate the centrality of thegospel through the means of
grace as found in our Lutherantradition.
You've had that same experience.
It sounds like Phil.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Absolutely, and then you actually have some
conversations with ourconfessions and our faith, and
then they'll sit there like,yeah, that's good and you can.
You can have deeper and richerconversations through that.
So I just I just hate the factthat we're avoiding that.
You know, we have complicatedthings and then we start
focusing on not just thetheological wars but then all
(09:31):
the cultural wars that arehappening.
We're dividing ourselves withinour own church body with other
church bodies and it'sproblematic.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
If you live by the law, you'll die by the law.
Man and Jesus came as gospel,good news in flesh, and so
that's where we have to leadright now.
Your story, though, of thinkingyou were going to become a
pastor and then becoming a DCE,even going to the seminary for a
time, and I love the story ofyour, your, your wife and coming
(10:02):
to faith with a name like Curiewhy don't you tell that man,
this is awesome.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, so Curie is a co-director with what I do now
for a thousand leaders.
But Curie was not a Christianuntil she entered into high
school.
In fact, she got invited to goto a Baptist youth group and
because a friend just keptbugging her time after time, she
said fine, I'll go and became aJesus follower from that point
(10:28):
on.
And, oddly enough, kirie'sparents named her Kirie without
knowing what it meant.
They just love the 80s rocksong, mr Mr.
You know Kirie liez on down theroad that I must have no idea
what the name meant.
They said that sounds cool,gonna name our daughter that.
And, lo and behold, her name isKirie.
She's a Christ follower, lover,and, yeah, so that's her.
(10:53):
We met, oh man, like 15 yearsago, got married about 11 years
ago and and we got two boys,like you said before.
But at one point I was gettingready to enter into vicarage,
which is, you know, internshipfor LCMS pastors, and what
happened was I was having likean identity crisis.
(11:15):
I just wasn't sure if being apastor is really what my true
calling was.
I Constantly been thinkingabout just the American church,
right, how that's changing, howwe have congregations that are
closing, and my thought processat the time was I mean, I'm
gonna be 40 and 50.
I'm gonna be a pastor.
How am I gonna be able toprovide for my family at this
(11:36):
time?
And Also, I love the localchurch, and I mean provide for
my family if there's morechurches that close down?
So that was one thing.
But then the other thing was man, I got some other gifts and
passions.
We love the local church, wewant to help lead churches, but
we don't necessarily want to bepaid by them.
So God has gifted us with somany different, different gifts
(11:59):
and talents.
How can we use that to glorifyGod and other people?
And so that was the journeyquest.
And like it was hard.
I had a lot of pastors in myfamily.
A lot of Lutherans in my familyis like what are you doing?
What's wrong with you?
And I'm sure there wassomething wrong with me at the
time, but God has just had us ona wild journey that's led us to
(12:20):
where we're at right nowHelping lead within PLI
leadership, specifically athousand young leaders, hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I love it, man.
So tell us about thousand youngleaders.
It's been, if you've been inthe LCMS for a while I've heard
about this been out pre-covid.
I believe this kind ofinitiative with PLI took place
and I don't know what the COVIDjourney did to a thousand young
leaders, but bring us up tospeed on where that ministry is
with PLI.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah.
So we help training, coachChristian young adults to
identify their context andpassions, to lead community,
where anyone can introduce Jesusto people.
And so these young adultChristians they're non-church
workers, they're everydayleaders, they're business owners
, doctors, baristas, teachers.
We even have a NASCAR driverthat has joined a cohort for a
(13:05):
thousand leaders.
He just won a big race theother day, shout-out Landon
Huffman, and Anyways.
We help them discern andunderstand those things to
maximize their impact for thegospel of Jesus.
So, yes, as you mentionedbefore, we came out pre-covid,
so we were doing online virtualcommunities.
So we're doing this thingcalled zoom and no one ever
(13:27):
heard of it, and then now it'severywhere, right.
And so it's important to usthat we have these online
communities because we can'tnecessarily Ask them to take
time off of their work schedulesor whatever they're doing to
come to like a learningcommunity, you know, similar to
what you guys do at Unite, right.
And so we just do everythingonline with them, and so it's
(13:48):
just kind of it's good for themto identify that there's like
money Christians just like them.
They have a heart for Jesus andhave something more for their
friends and their communityaround them.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So we put them through a ten-month process To
help them dream and imagine whatthat could look like, and
there's just so much goodnessthat has come from that mmm, and
Tell a story or two of peoplewho have gone through and just
had and I'm sure everybody hasvarious stories of
transformation by the power ofspirit and word.
(14:17):
But have there been some newdreams that the Lord has kind of
brought about or just kind of areorientation of how Jesus
interacts in their Every daylife?
It's probably all of the aboveright.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, it's all the above, but what's?
I think the problem is and kindof getting back to the primary
question that you had beforelike we over complicate things
for people, right, we havesystems, as pastors and leaders
within our churches, of how wewant to create our leadership
pipelines, which is good, right,but also we forget about
actually Helping people discovertheir passions, their context,
(14:53):
where God has placed them, andso like, for instance, I talked
about a NASCAR driver thatjoined, right, he's like
mid-range, popular within theNASCAR world.
He'll like race on some of thebig Race weekends.
He's like one of those guysthat an owner will pay him to
qualify for a race and thenafter two laps He'll like park
the car, you know, and then nextyou know he's qualifying and
(15:15):
getting money for thatparticular race owner.
And so he was kind of having anidentity crisis.
When he was in a thousandleaders, he's like should I be
racing forever?
He was doing kind of likelow-level like Kind of, I guess,
think of like the minor leaguesfor NASCAR and he was doing
like short track racing.
Well, in between that time hewas struggling to make money.
You know he needed to raisemoney and so what he started
(15:37):
doing was he?
He had a twitch dream where hewas racing online Virtual NASCAR
races.
He grew his following to, Ithink, like four thousand
viewers a day that are watchinghim stream on twitch.
You know that was his thing.
He got sponsors.
He got paid for I'm DaleEarnhardt Jr Actually is one of
his sponsors and so what wascool was he was trying to figure
(16:00):
out how do I actually leadcommunity where people can
experience Jesus.
While going through a coachinghuddle, he discovered like, hey,
this is something that I do inan everyday purpose.
What if I invite people into adeeper conversation about Jesus?
And so he started introducingthat on his twitch dream.
Hey, if you, if you want toknow more about my, my story, my
faith, I'm actually open up azoomer in this day.
(16:20):
You can register here, andthat's where his his followers
got even a closer look of who hewas.
He put that out there and thething is it was simple.
It's something that he wasalready doing.
If we can actually take some ofthose things and elements of
how people lead, it becomes morethan just leading a small group
or a Bible study.
We are really maximizing thepotential of greater kingdom
(16:44):
opportunities, and just thinkabout how many people is
reaching in the name of JesusJust by using his passions of
racing Spectacular.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That we got a generational thing here.
You hang out with more youngpeople than I do, even though
I'm coaching high schoolfootball right now.
I've been.
I've been hearing about my, mykids drip like they're putting
on all this drip, you know, andI learned that's all.
Though they're swag, they wantto look cool and good and stuff.
I have not even heard of twitchdream bro.
You just brought out somethingto.
I don't even know that YouTubeis this it's a twitch.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
it's like a gaming thing for YouTube called twitch,
and, and Basically what itturned into is people like
watching people play video games.
I know my thing, but apparentlythis is a big following and
people are following some ofthese influencers out there, and
Landon happens to be Influencedfor the NASCAR industry.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So there you go, okay praise god, shout out to twitch
dreams connected to YouTube.
So what are some of those?
Oh, the stereotypes I get topass for fill in a
multi-generational congregation,you know it's a joy and in from
a lower income to higher incomekind of community and very
diverse, super fun.
But what are some of thosestereotypes that need to be
debunked around Young Jesusfollowers on my day?
(17:56):
You know we're.
So yeah, just, I love thisquestion because it leads us
toward, hopefully, humility andcuriosity.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, we're, we're the same as you all, and I say
that is now.
I'm getting older too.
I'm like on the 36 years old,like I feel out of touch.
I have no idea what jerk meanseither too, by the way, bro and
and so, but the thing is we'rethe same, you know, and Stop.
It's easy to kind of makestereotypes, to look at the data
(18:25):
and then not actually engage ina relationship, and so get to
know that person, right and?
And Stop making decisions basedon that data, right, so we'll
see what happens with that.
They want to be challenged intosomething deeper.
They don't want to necessarilyGo to your church because of the
amount or the lack of programs.
(18:47):
They actually are concernedabout their friends, that who
don't know Jesus.
And I think we we kind of fallin that lie like we don't have
enough in our kids ministry, ouryouth ministry, whatnot.
You know, if we are actuallyinvesting them in the way that
they, we can prepare them To bea missionary in the places that
they live, work and play, Ithink that's gonna resonate with
(19:10):
them more.
So let's just stop catering tothem.
Let's empower them forsomething more.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes, love it.
Do you know the Griners?
Do you know Micah and Sarah?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, he's a senior pastor at my my home church back
in the day.
No, way.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Okay, yeah, they're the ones that.
They're the ones that connecteddoes?
I got an email from Sarah backin the day.
Okay it's all.
It's all clicking together now.
So let's say that these athousand young leaders Grow up
and they're while.
They will grow up into the nextgeneration.
They'll be roughly in their 50sand and leading in areas of
influence, maybe within ourchurch, by Lutheran Church,
(19:49):
missouri Senate or other areasof leadership.
What do you think, how do youthink the church will look
different if we really see themas a generation that we can
learn from Humbly in this dayand age?
How do you think the AmericanChristian Church will look
different in 2050?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
It won't be as organized, it won't be Consumer
driven right.
We're gonna empower people toactually lead in ways that we
Didn't think that was possible.
I think for a lot of ourpastors and overseers in our
church body like that can bethreatening at first, because it
(20:28):
seems like their, their role ortheir power or whatever you
want to call it, is gonna lookless and less and You're gonna
actually have people living outsome of these God dreams that
they have in their hearts.
I think our local churches.
It would be easier to be ableto multiply those things, and so
(20:51):
I have a lot of hope.
But right now it appears thatthere's just so much power that
we want to be able to hold on to, and so I think it's gonna look
different, and that's why webelieve in what we do by
investing in a lot of theseleaders.
But it's gonna be a hardjourney to get there, because
(21:12):
it's not it's not top-down youdo this, it's it's bottom-up.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
What is the Lord doing in your life and in the
work of your community?
And you know that that's one ofmy big struggles, phil.
We're just getting to know oneanother.
But I can go on rants about theinstitutional systemic control
that Sometimes hamper as pastorsand leaders from dream big
dreams to multiply disciples atthe local level, because we've
outsourced Institutionalformation and, and I think we've
(21:40):
only made it one way thatyou're meant yeah, we've only
made one way.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I love the fact and I don't know if you talked about
it yet that you were conventionand you were trying to have
conversations with people.
What were you trying toconvince people of saying, like,
is there only one way to beable to do seminary training?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, they're multiple.
Do we need more paths forseminary formation?
And I, I was like a black sheepdude, some most people who just
kind of walk by like I'm nottouching that you know.
On the one hand I agree withyou but I'm not gonna say
anything.
On the other hand, I reallydon't agree with you because we
got to maintain Institute.
Our institutions or seminariesare the crown jewel of our
church body.
Not I've been making the casePhil's both hand.
It's not either or but right nowthere's this heavy, heavy
(22:17):
control right now, and I'mpraying for more openness as
what we're doing is assessed andanalyzed here in the United
leadership collective.
But yeah, I don't, I don't know.
It's just a fascinating.
I just love to know is itworking because I'm a pragmatist
, you know, I'm a localcongregation guy is what we're
doing as it relates to formationand then, just every day,
discipleship multiplication?
Is it?
Is it working in ourinstitutional, you know kind of
(22:40):
centrally controlled, based onthe institutions in st Louis?
Is it?
Is it actually producing thequantity and the quality of
disciple multipliers that thechurch needs into the next
generation?
And I think the answer is nah,I don't.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, this means that there's not fruit that's coming
from it.
But if we're talking aboutexponential growth, like no and
and I think also going back tothe church 2050, like If we look
back and said, okay, we wereokay of having some of these
hard strategic changes, right,no one's stripping away our
doctrine, no one's trying totake away our theological core
(23:15):
beliefs, like there's got to bea better way that we are
investing in leaders, trainingthe people of God, training our
overseers, all that being said,and breaking down some of that
power and control that we had.
So I applaud you for the factthat you're doing that.
I'm wondering was there anyonethat even wanted to approach the
conversation with you?
Like, what did that work?
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, we're releasing four different conversations,
you know three to four minutes.
The second vice president ofSynod, reverend Ben Ball, he's
gonna be on one of the podcastshere soon and I had a street
conversation with him.
I actually ended up gettingasked to leave.
My friend Joe and I just set upa little table off to the side
(23:58):
because we weren't likeregistered and had a table in
the main area because we wereboth voting delegates.
We took this from security.
They gave us absolute freedomand then we were told we can't
do that.
So then we moved out to thestreet corner and had like two
or three more conversationsthere.
But yeah, there's a there is, Ithink, a groundswell movement.
(24:18):
Not a large percentage, but Ithink it's in our generation and
younger who are just kind ofsaying we want to be about the
future of discipleship,multiplication, and where we
feel like we're getting heldback, and not just because of
length of time but also cost.
I think younger generations arealso looking at how expensive
(24:39):
everything is and saying like,whoa, that cost is really,
really heavy.
So, yeah, we can talk moreabout this, but I got other
things I want to talk to youabout as well.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Thank you for doing that, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, you're very welcome, bro, it's a super
joy.
So what words of wisdom wouldyou give to church leaders and
pastors who integrate youngleaders into the life of the
congregation?
You know, mentoring, coaching,apprenticeship, that hasn't
necessarily been hardwired intoa lot of our churches.
You know, pastors are doers andeverybody else are our
(25:11):
receivers.
This dichotomy, this wasactually at the convention.
This is a different topic thanjust a topic of formation.
But this, this theology that inthe church there are Proclaimers
, you know, preachers, and thenthere are hearers, and the two
should not be confused, this is,in my mind, an inordinately
high elevation of the office ofholy ministry at the expense of
(25:34):
the priesthood of all believers.
And we're always, as it relatesto some people, actually
thinking the Missouri Synodright now feel that evangelism
is solely the task of the localcalled-in-ordained servant of
the word.
And how crippling is that togospel multiplication, you know.
So what words of wisdom wouldyou give for pastors to say,
okay, I learned one way, Ilearned to be a doer of ministry
(25:58):
to now, Okay, can I identify?
Have the IC and youconversations with some of our
younger, younger leaders who arethere waiting to be Discover,
developed and deployed yourthoughts on that, phil.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, I mean, oftentimes when I talk to
pastors on the phone, they'retalking about thousand young
leaders.
They're thinking, by calling meand signing up some of their
young adult leaders for aspecific cohort, that this is
going to help them, have urgedthem and encourage them to be a
volunteer on there, to be ontheir boards, right, because
(26:30):
like there's no young people,not only a church, but there's
no young people servingleadership, which is great.
I'm glad that they are aware ofthese things and they realize
it's going to be a problem ifthey don't address that issue.
But they they're simply justsending people To a training,
thinking that you know they'regonna get outcomes, they're
gonna benefit the church, thelocal church with itself, rather
(26:54):
than if they actually send andinvest in leaders, that it's
going to benefit and help thecommunity around them.
And From our perspective, likeit's really hard when we're
trying to measure differentthings.
We measure how many butts inthe pew, how many people are we
baptizing right now, a bignumber to measure.
So, like, how many young peopledo we have in our church?
Right, and except there couldbe other ways that we can
(27:18):
measure what, what Jesus isdoing through those lives.
And so I'm not saying thatPeople who have joined a
thousand leaders haven'tactually become the president of
their boards that, like it,actually has happened in a way.
But we need to start Investingin those types of leaders,
knowing that there could beopportunity for greater good in
their city and their communityand beyond.
(27:39):
So I don't know if that answersthe question.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I know it does, it does.
Yeah, what about?
Tell me a story of a pastor whohad the, the flip switched, you
know, and said, whoa, thisisn't about just getting them
into an area of leadership, butit's actually about me getting
to come alongside them to watchand learn and do a lot of what I
, what I get to do.
I could tell you a handful ofthem here.
(28:03):
Our staff we got a hundred andthirty eight people actually on
our team and our school and ourchurch.
Two-thirds are in our, ourgrowing school.
But, man, it's such a joy I'mgonna be in a Gilbert campus
meeting here in in 15 minutes.
A third of those leaders are 28and under and Many of them are
being apprenticed to do pastoralministry roles or leading
(28:24):
admission, it's just, it's justa joy.
Some of them work in very, verypart-time.
Well, they got jobs in thecommunity that they're getting
after.
It's just so much fun to have adiversity of demographic in our
inner space.
So are there are other pastorsthat had that?
You know that light bulb.
Go on, man.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, one pastor sent a guy through a thousand
leaders and he's like I need toinvest in more.
He's gonna probably be our nextchair for our church, right, I
was like, okay, that's cool,sweet, right.
And as this particular personwas really going through the
cohort, they were able to reallyidentify the things that they
(29:03):
can also do and how they canlead within their own church,
and One of them just be anexample of like how to live out
faith and build new types ofcommunities.
And so there's one particularguy.
He just realized, as goingthrough assessments, that we
have character assessments andSpiritual disciplines, all these
different things.
Right, he realized at one pointthat he loved making pizzas and
(29:24):
his favorite thing to doactually was not doing any type
of leadership With the church,but he loved actually serving
the homeless shelter onSaturdays, and so what he did
was like how do I combine thosethings together?
How can we make it simple?
Well, he opened up a pizzabusiness and employing Homeless
men as a form of discipleshipand also so they can have some
(29:46):
sort of source of income and pay.
Right, he loved pizzas.
This is what he'd love to do.
And then, as the pastor waslike realizing that, it was like
, oh wait a minute, look what'sactually happening beyond our
church walls.
I mean, there was a smallchurch plant, I think, their
worship being like 50 to 60 in aSunday and realizing like hey,
it's, it's not about justdevelopment for how we have them
(30:07):
in our pipeline, but how are wesending them out to be good
news in these places, especiallywhat they're passionate about
as well?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, no, the the flip that needs to get switched.
For pastors and you justhighlighted it there is a move
away from Structure.
We need people in these rolesto story, to story, find the
stories of young people goingout and man, that's just such a
such a powerful story.
And that what I've found withthe power of story and this is
deeply theological Right is itshifts our cultures, man, it
(30:36):
shifts our perspective andpeople start to go from down and
in and grumpy and oh, why don'tI get to do this?
And that's like, oh, the worldis big and beautiful and there's
opportunity and good moves fromscarcity to abundance, just
like that of a pastor.
Learners the art of telling agood story, especially connected
to the next generation of Jesusfollowers going on mission to
make him known.
Man, isn't that true?
The power of story.
Anything more to add there,phil?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, I mean absolutely like.
For us, kiri and myself, welive on.
We always say, within our home,with our boys we want the name
of Jesus to be known on ChaseStreet.
This is where we live, right?
What are some of the thingsthat I love to do?
I Love getting guys together toplay poker, have cigars and
drink good bourbon right, it's afun time.
(31:20):
And so even on Friday, we had 14guys come over half the guys on
the street, not Christianwhatsoever.
We have some people that go toour local church of Christian or
have other brothers, like Isaid, that are in different
Denomination.
You know that they also want tobe able to join in as well, and
it's beautiful when you getlike a group of people together,
(31:40):
and I kid you're not.
On Friday, one of the theneighbor, said dude, I can't
believe you're doing this.
Like, why, why are you doingthis?
Well, like, why are you openingup your home?
And we got to the point I won'tshare what exactly what I had to
say, but what, what I'm tryingto get after, like, that's a
spiritual Conversation that wasabout to be had.
(32:02):
Right, and we can prepare morepeople for those types of
conversations, those types ofstories.
Imagine what the, the priest ofall believers, can be about.
Right, they're gonna beempowered and equipped to be
able to lead, to bring good news, to be able to share the gospel
.
And guess what you can?
You can really simplify that ofhow you build community today.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's, that's amazing.
Thank you for for doing that.
There are so many of that ofthat story happening right now
People starting to pastor their,their block or their community.
I mean, I think that's that'shouse, church in in action,
right there.
Do people ever ask you if, phil, what do you, what do you do
for work?
Because this is a hard one forme Well, and pastor, church and
(32:47):
school, blah, blah, blah.
You know that kind of thing andsometimes I get I'm not trying
to lie or be disingenuous oranything, but I I have teased
out I get a.
I get a focus on leadership,development and people being,
you know, cared for, loved andthen mobilized to bring love and
care into their community.
That, at the core, is what I doas a pastoral leader.
So, yeah, what do you say whensomeone says what do you do,
(33:10):
phil?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I mean I don't specifically work in a local
church right now.
You know I work for PLIleadership, so I do share that.
I work for a leadershiporganization that does
consulting and training forministry leaders Globally and
worldwide, which is enough forthem to feel a little bit
awkward, right, and that's okay.
Yeah, it's important to be ableto listen to their story.
All right, and so I'll listento their story.
(33:33):
You know, connect the dots thatway.
But you know, if you have aconversation long enough and you
get to some of those heartissues, you know walls begin to
break down and and you knowpeople get a little bit
comfortable.
You know, as I shared, we hadpoker and I mean with all the
Christians ever in the roomthere was a lot of Gds from all
the other people that were beingmouth, you know after that,
(33:55):
which is like it's kind of likea different environment to be in
.
But like they know exactly whatI do, they know that I love
Jesus, they know that I'm aChrist follower I've never shied
away from that but they alsofeel comfortable to Be who they
are, even knowing what my roleis.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, yeah, I've had the same experience.
I've been golfing for years andyears and, yeah, there it can
be a little bit of a sailormouth out on the course and
stuff and and.
But they feel comfortable, theyfeel like I'm a normal human
that they can have real-lifeconversations about.
And I've got the privilege thenof Pasturing through the ups
and downs and funerals of ahandful of my brothers over over
(34:34):
the years.
So yeah, I pray we're placingourselves in more of those
environments.
How are you praying for becausewe're part of the Lutheran
Church Missouri Senate multiplegenerations how are you praying
that the LCMS as a church bodybecomes healthier, phil?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I really kind of struggle this question as you
sent it over, but I think thatthe first gut reaction that came
to mind was just kindness,seeking less power, being okay
With different strategic ideas.
We can continue to beessentially a word in sacrament
(35:11):
Gospel church, right, but Ithink there's got to be less
power.
We got to stop fighting overthese secondary issues and we
got to learn to have aconversation and Be okay with
approaching hard conversationsthe fact that I'm sure people
(35:32):
were walking by you atconvention.
They're like I don't even wantto touch that right there.
We got to be okay, just havingsome of these conversations.
There's got to be a way todemonstrate this where people
can see that, okay, we can bebrothers and sisters and have
different ideas of what were thesacrament word in sacrament
ministry look like, but we canbe together and there's just too
(35:55):
much division, too muchseparation.
I want I want people to beunified in the faith.
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Amen, can you give.
I've been praying forcontextual hospitality.
We talk about theologicalhospitality, but just contextual
hospitality.
Can you go deeper into whatsome of those secondary issues
that you think we divide on areand even then you and I can kind
of Model what it looks like tohave a conversation around some
of these things that aresecondary?
(36:20):
But here's it, here's who getsto say what a secondary issue is
, because some of what we thinkare secondary maybe, maybe
primary, intimately connected.
It's like a through string too,and everything's gonna unravel,
man, if you pull on that, onthat string.
So give me an example of asecondary doctrinal issue which
is really coming full circlethere, a lot of what we talked
about at the very beginning.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
This is great, phil well, I mean, I Was not in the
weeds of all the things thatwere being passed at convention,
right, but I do know that someof the bigger issues that were
being talked about Is Concordia,texas, right, I, I know that
you were in an interview withthem and you, you were willing
to have the conversation withthem and actually learn of what
(36:58):
was going on, right from theirperspective.
Those issues where now it'sbecoming a he said, she said, is
not like there's there'smisinformation going out there?
You know that not the wholestory is actually being shared
and and it's we're so stuck onsome of these things of what we
think who's breaking whatcommandment and whatnot.
(37:20):
So that that's an issue that Ifeel like is pretty concerning
to me.
You know the other thing, too,and if you ever have the
conversation with Lutheran, it'slike you know I may not
necessarily Like everything thatmy congregation does, but I'm
glad that we believe in the onetrue faith, right, and they're
(37:43):
thinking that you know, wow,like all of our theological
Convictions are correct comparedto everyone else out there,
without actually exploring someof those secondary issues with
other people and thedenominations and actually
learning, I feel like likebefore I could be strengthened
of more what those theologicalsecondary issues might look like
If I actually have someconversations with people about
(38:06):
them.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah for sure.
And that's to get to the why ofwhy I do these podcasts feel is
is to have those conversations,because you and I, you and I
generally, I think we couldprobably find some areas.
We're like.
I don't know if I do it likethat, but generally I think,
given our stories, we're gonnaagree on 99% of just a lot of
things were both mission.
We want the next generation,but I I gotta listen to the guys
(38:31):
who are concerned about, well,one of the hot button issues the
role of women in the church.
You know, let's look at, let'slook at scripture today and
there were, there were someResolutions being brought
forward that really want tonarrow, narrow the focus of of
women and their and their voicewithin a church.
So how do I listen, withcharity and kindness and and
(38:52):
also that's where it gets downto, contextual hospitality is in
your, in your community.
Maybe that, maybe that worksfor you to narrow the role of
women in our community.
It doesn't, it doesn't helpthat that much you know.
So, yeah, and I could go downthe way, the way the Lord supper
gets administered, you know, Ithink we need to have some
contextual hospitality there.
I shout out to President Harrisand his explanation of the the
(39:17):
close nature of communion for us.
I agree with.
They need to know that this isa meal connected to the Triune
God.
I need to know it's a realpresence and baptized in the
name of the Triune God,confessing their sins, in need
of transformation by the powerof the Holy Spirit, coming
broken and contrite like abruised I bruised wheat reed or
(39:37):
smoldering wick.
You know Isaiah says so calmman, broken let's go.
This is, this is for, this isfor you and I.
Rather than a card carryingwe're not Wisconsin sinner
rather than the card carrying.
Member of this, thiscongregation Per se.
So there was some, there weresome areas at the convention or
I was like, ah, that was, thatwas pretty charitable, that was
pretty, pretty pastoral, and soI, I really would love to.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
I'm sure there's good stuff too, and I just was not
like actually paying attentionto everything what was going on
the convention, so I couldn'tgive you like any like real
examples, but you just know thatsome of those things are there
and there's also good thingsthat come out of these
Conversations that happen atconvention too for sure, and if
I could give one prayer, it'sthat relationships would take
(40:19):
predominance over rules, andthis is the way we do things.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Well, unless you hear what's going on in our unique
context.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
We should hold a very open hand with those rules and
hold tightly to relationship, toChrist and to one another and,
to be honest with you, like I'vehad to repent through that too,
because I'll go into certainConversations with different key
leaders within our sin andthinking, oh, they're gonna be
that much more different than me, we're not even gonna meet at
the same place.
(40:48):
And then after having an hourconversation, I was like whoa,
like repentance all over, likeI'm glad I had that conversation
and I can't go into some ofthese things, thinking that the
relationship is Gonna be thatfar off and and so that has been
a deep learning for me and Ineed to be able to approach more
of those people that I thinkthat are gonna land on a
(41:10):
different side.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I agree, I agree, I've been.
I've been amazed.
It's interesting how humanbeings we have conversations
before the conversationAnticipate how this is all gonna
go down.
So can we put the bestconstruction on everything and
go into every conversation withit an open mind and heart and a
Humble desire to learn.
This person has gifts to giveand gifts to receive and I just
(41:35):
went.
That's just such a more Freeingposture to take in any sort of
relationship.
Right, I don't have to be Godfor you, I don't have to
convince you.
Actually, the harder I try toconvince you, the less
convincing it is.
The tighter the relationship is, the more the Holy Spirit has
room to work and to to change.
But this can't be about me.
This is really poor theology.
I have to come in to win man.
(41:57):
No one, no one wins when thathappens only the.
Holy Spirit can create andSustain and sanctify us in the
true Christian face.
So there needs to be more HolySpirit and less us.
Anything more to add on that,phil?
Amen, all right, bro, so how do?
how do spiritual disciplines?
You're awesome.
Last question here, this hasbeen fun.
I love your heart.
How do spiritual disciplinesimpact your life as a leader of
(42:21):
Leaders?
And then, what are some of yourI love?
Are the you all see lovestalking, the rhythms that
disciplines of the of theBaptized Jesus followers, some
of your kind of favoritedisciplines.
For me, they kind of evolvefrom season to season, life,
life Circumstances and such.
So let's close with aconversation about spiritual
disciplines.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
I yeah, I love this question.
So I'm a type one diabetic andI was diagnosed 8808 and part of
my story, my journey,especially when I was diagnosed
it was before my senior year offootball, concordia, chicago,
and Probably for the next fiveto six years I was not taking
care of myself what whatsoever.
(42:59):
In fact I created an eatingdisorder out of it and when I
was just consuming so much foodand sugar and I lost a ton of
weight and I was like, oh man, Ifeel look better because I was
an offensive lineman you knowoffense, I'm a big boys, right.
So I lost a ton of weight,wasn't taking care of myself and
I was honestly like a wreckduring that time.
(43:22):
And so since then, with thehelp of my wife and close
friends and loved ones andfamily, like I have been on a
journey of like, hey, how do I,how do I take care of myself?
So I give my best to the peoplearound me, not just my family,
but if God has given me anopportunity to connect with
neighbors and loved ones andco-workers In a way to be able
(43:42):
to bring good news, like I needto be able to take care of
myself, and so that has led tome of just being really diligent
, of how I measure sugars, whatI, what I, what I do.
So while I was taking care ofmyself, I gained all that weight
back throughout time and andeven though my a1c levels were
(44:03):
good, my sugars were good.
I was just thinking like man,there's got to be a better way
that I can even feel healthier.
So just recently, in the pastlike three months, I've done
more intermittent fasting, macrocounting and I've lost like 27
pounds since that time andbecause it's just like there's
so much opportunity To give toother people.
(44:26):
So that is part of, you know,my spiritual discipline is like
how do I become even moreconscious of taking care of
myself, of how much water Idrink?
You know what I'm, what I'mlimiting and you know, because
God has given us so muchopportunity and I don't want to
be able to waste that for myfamily and my neighbors and
people that love the most, sothat that really impacts how I
(44:50):
lead with what I do right now.
It impacts how I can share mystory, because there's a lot of
repentance that I've needed towork through and to share what
that looks like with otherpeople around me, and Jesus uses
that.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Oh man, I love this topic so much.
And one congratulations forListen to your body and going on
a journey to just care for thetemple of the Holy Spirit that
the Lord has given you.
It's not about more years inyour life, you know, keep them,
keep them fearful, keep themmedicated.
That's a lot of what's going onin our world today.
(45:26):
And saying, no, I have someagency.
And, powered by the Holy Spirit, I want more years in my life.
I want to go out.
I'm not years of my life, alife in my years.
I want to go out swinging man.
I want, I want the day before Idie to be like pouring into
other people, if it all, if itall possible.
And in America we're not livinglonger, we're dying longer and
we're just.
You know that that should notbe for the church.
(45:48):
So I really believe the churchwould be a model of health, not
for vanity sake that we all havean ego and pride and all that
kind of stuff, but fordiscipleship sake, for for the
others sake.
And I want, I want maximumenergy.
And I gotta tell you a funnystory as we're closing here did
yesterday yesterday was Sundayand I Didn't preach preach it at
(46:10):
one of our campuses.
Four times I actually led ledworship and I practiced
intermittent fasting for gosh.
A few years ago I did a bloodsample work and lost some pounds
.
But I just wanted to, justwanted to lean up so I could be
more, more present for folks,and have continued on with the
the water and I pretty much justeat between a noon and six
(46:31):
Window on Sundays, though I eatlike a little bit of fruit to
get the blood sugars up as I'mkind of coming low around 10 or
so in the morning.
I know my body well enough toknow that's what I need before
our last service.
Well, I went home after thelast service and it was hoping
to get some protein, like I needa lot, a lot of protein, right.
But there was this.
My family and we don't do thisvery often, though my kids would
(46:51):
say we probably do it too oftenbut my wife had taken the kids
and this is nothing to answer toTaco Bell, okay, to Taco Bell
and my kids.
They got good metabolism, theycan move some stuff there.
So I had.
I came home and I had a chalupathat had been sitting out for
about 30 minutes and I went andplayed nine holes of golf with
my daughter who's getting readyfor a match today and I'm not
(47:11):
even joking, I'm a real avidgolfer.
Five holes in, bro, I had toquit.
My stomach was just turning andnot.
It was not good.
And even last night I went tobed at 9, I reset, I was like I
don't know if I'm gonna be ableto be on with Rick and Phil
today, but the Lord, the Lord,allowed me to get my water and
flush them stuff through like Idon't.
I don't know that.
We're talking enough in thechurch about Soul care connected
(47:33):
to physical care, because theyare not distinct.
One is impacting the other.
Right, what we put into ourbody shapes our brain, shapes
our mentality and and can leadto Chronic fight-flight-freeze
mode.
Right, rather than fully beingpresent for people, what we
consume Can consume us and andlead us more inward, more
(47:56):
anxiety, more fear rather thanmore abundance.
And again, every person has tofigure this out for themselves.
This is all a conversationcovered in the mercy and grace
of Jesus, but it's not okay tonot have a way that you're
trying to maximize the, theamazing, miraculous body that
Jesus has given to you.
So I just applaud you, phil,for going on that journey, you
(48:18):
and your family and your thosethat you get an impact are just
gonna be better for it.
It's not about perfection, it'sjust about progress.
Man, you know, just taking theright next next step.
Anything more to say, though, onphysical care.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yeah, I mean, I long for the new body, right.
I long where my body will nolonger have type 1 diabetes.
But it's part of my story rightnow, right and the way, each
and every day, that I'm soconscious of taking care of
myself Just gives me so muchmore energy, gives me so much
(48:48):
more opportunity.
And you know what, like it'salmost like it's now becoming
way more addicting of, like whatI'm consuming between 12 and 6
pm, right, like I feel so muchbetter, like my body craves that
stuff.
Like you said, taco Bell and Iwas I was done, dude like
there's just no way that you canput that in my body right now,
because I love that.
(49:09):
I would be out the next day too,and so I want to be able to
give my best, I think.
And then also, like I want tobe a living example of as I'm
discipling other people, like ifI'm asking people to imitate me
, like I also want them toimitate, like even some of those
health disciplines that I havethat can lead to Some of those
spiritual opportunities thatwe're talking about.
(49:30):
So it's important stuff and Ifeel like it's easy, like, well,
we have a good a Disabilityplan or a good insurance plan
that's gonna take care of ourneeds like no.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
We need to take care of ourselves today, and so it's
just important for me, self-careis not selfish and the
decisions we make today aredeposits, gifts to our future
self, and I pray we can see thatnot as something that's
legalistic, but just a Greatopportunity to steward this one
life which will be resurrected,brand new, eternal and
(50:02):
perishable, powerful, immortalbodies which will come.
We're not Gnostics.
We care about the physicalreality, the creation God has
given to us and the new creationthat we are In Christ.
So this has been so much fun,phil.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yeah, check out 1kylorg, that is our website.
We have a cohort For a thousandleaders and starting November
6th, so check us out there.
And then on Facebook andInstagram you can find us with a
thousand young leaders, and sowe love to connect with you and
hear your story and and be apart of your God dreams, so and
(50:37):
help you discern through that.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
One kylorg Yep one, kylorg that was.
That was cool man, so this hasbeen so much fun.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.
Sharing is caring the comments,whether it's on YouTube or it's
on Spotify or iTunes, gettingthe word out.
This podcast is growing and wepray we're just having more
Jesus-centered conversationswith people Following not
(50:59):
perfectly, but following afterJesus, using the respective
gifts that he has given to them,just like Phil Klopke is doing
in his Nashville and nationalwork with the next generation of
leaders.
I feel you are Inspiring andit's an honor to meet you today
and pray we get to meet inperson in the near future.
Man, thanks so much for beingwith me today on American
Reformation.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yeah man a way to bring the drip the drip, there
we go, drip it up.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here and today, I have thedistinct honor and privilege of
getting to hang out with a brandnew friend that was referred to
me.
I've been connected to thePastoral Leadership Institute
for a number of years and Ithink it I don't remember who it
was that said man.
You got to meet this PhilKlopke, and so he and I have
(00:58):
been hanging out the last 15minutes.
You are in for a treat today.
Not only is he the husband andfather of two young boys,
married to his wife Kierie hearda little bit of her story,
which is fantastic but he's he'sworking with PLI's thousand
young leaders as theirco-director.
So welcome Phil.
How are you doing today, buddyDude?
I'm great Happy to be here.
(01:19):
Thanks for having me on man,yeah, happy to have you.
So how are you praying?
Kind of a standard question onthis podcast.
How are you praying forReformation in the American
Christian Church, bro?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I love the question and love that you're
focusing on that.
I don't know Like my first gutreaction I don't know if it's
like a deep or I don't know whatit would look like for your
listeners but I'm praying thatwe don't lose sight of the, the
centrality of the gospel.
I continue to talk to a lot offriends, brothers, out there.
Oftentimes in our conversationsit seems like we're
(01:49):
overcomplicating things andwe're so we're.
We're fighting on secondarytheological issues, the culture
wars.
So I don't want us to losefocus on the simple gospel, what
that means for our neighbors,coworkers and friends.
And I live in Nashville,tennessee, and I think the first
thing that comes to mind whenyou think of Nashville is I live
(02:10):
in the Bible Belt, which istrue, but in my neighborhood I
live in East Nashville and it'sprobably the most liberal
district in all of the state ofTennessee.
In fact, if you were to jointhe East Nashville Facebook page
, you would see that there arepeople that will celebrate and
rejoice when churches close downNow our churches, when they
(02:32):
close down to become concertvenues, workshops, coffee shops,
recording studios, not sayingthat's pretty cool, but people
are very happy and they rejoicebecause another place, what they
would perceive as judgmental isclosing down.
So we have the highest densityof the LGBT community in our
neighborhood.
And so, again, why do I sharethis?
(02:54):
My friends and the people thatlive in my neighborhood are not
necessarily all Lutheran.
There's Presbyterians, there'sBaptists, it feels like there's
a few of us.
Right, we share the commongospel essentials together,
which makes it that much moreimportant as we're reaching
neighbors, neighbors, friends,the people that are here, and
(03:16):
it's important that we don'tlose sight of that.
So I think we get caught upwith other issues and I'm sure
you have many conversationsaround those.
But then the second thing, too,is that we have a Reformation
for the people of God.
Personally, from I'm amazedfrom a theological perspective,
especially as a Lutheran, thatwe talk about the priesthood
believers but we don'tnecessarily always live it out,
(03:40):
and so I love us to see how weequip all people, the priesthood
believers, and how they canlead out their giftedness,
because there's so manydifferent kingdom opportunities
that are out there.
So those two things.
I think we can dive deeper ifyou like, but that's what I'm
praying for.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Man Phil, you're my boy, dude.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
That was so good.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So let's do two threads here.
This simple gospel.
There are people who will saywell, you dig into that.
You're going to get intosyncretism and unionism, you're
going to get into compromising,and those are Reformed brothers
and sisters and Armenianbrothers and sisters.
They've totally missed it.
(04:26):
You're going to become aBaptist.
You hang out with thoseBaptists too long, phil, you're
going to become a Baptist orReformed and you're going to end
up trying to make the gospel ofJesus Christ into a work if you
hang out with these people fortoo long.
So just watch out if you go inthat direction.
I'm playing devil's advocatehere, but this is very real and
you live in a liberal community,man, you're going to take on
(04:48):
some of those liberal tendencies, don't you believe that in the
beginning God created the maleand female and His image.
He created them, and folks youhang out with may have different
opinions.
The gospel of Jesus Christcould be watered down.
You could become anti-nomian,bro, if you hang out with them
too long.
Is there any such need?
Is there a need for the law?
(05:09):
So how do you nail in to answersome of those questions?
And on the simple gospel ofJesus Christ, sorry to go kind
of dark there for a second.
But those questions are realwhen you start to lean in.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
No, you're good.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Let's just focus on the gospel it's really good and
that's fair and I appreciate thequestion.
I think part of the problem iswe start getting into those
different variables and then weforget about the relationship
that's in front of us.
We forget about actually havinga conversation with them
because, guess what, they mightactually learn something from
some of the secondary issuesthat you and I hold on to.
(05:42):
And then we start unifying in away where and I'm not saying
maybe theologically we unify,but I know they deeply care for
my neighbor, I know they deeplycare for my community, I know
they deeply care that the nameof Jesus is known in East
Nashville, and so that'simportant and I think there can
be some sharpening there.
I've learned a lot.
It's really helped a lot of mytheological convictions and I
(06:06):
realize I'm much more of aLutheran than I am today, than I
was prior, without having thoseconversations with those
brothers and sisters.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I agree there's some stories of Jesus.
I love this podcast becauseit's just honing on Jesus.
Gospel equals Jesus, the workof Jesus, the way of Jesus, the
words of Jesus.
Let's just focus in on Jesus.
Can you think of, off the topof your head, a story or two of
Jesus where he enters intorelationship with people that
(06:35):
you and I would theologicallydisagree with?
I love hearing these stories.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, I mean, there's several stories, right, and I
constantly think of thePharisees, right, and I'm not
going to talk about a specificone, but oftentimes, when Jesus
is addressing Pharisees andcountering some of their debates
, the one thing that comes tomind is especially like growing
(07:04):
up Lutheran is like man.
Are there fairsuticaltendencies that I hold on to?
Are there things that I'm veryguilty of and I need repentance
of?
And I grew up Lutheran.
I grew up my dad being a pastor, my mom being a Lutheran school
teacher, administrator,principal, and I got used to
just kind of accepting for whatthings were, and so I just look
(07:28):
at those types of relationshipsthat Jesus had with some
Pharisees, right, you know, youthink of Nicodemus, what that
looked like and how his heartwas changed, and so I think
they're, and I just think ofthose people that believe in the
same central core beliefs thatwe do.
And if we're not willing tohave that conversation with them
(07:49):
, how was the point?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So truth, truth, I think, of Jesus and his
disciples, and you know, theyfrom all ends of the spectrum,
from Matthew the outsider taxcollector to Peter the zealot
and then the others kind ofbeing within those, within those
continuums.
They have a tendency to developthis kind of legalistic,
pharisaical tendency.
(08:13):
Do you remember the story of?
We heard there was a guy outthere casting out demons in your
name, jesus?
Well, let's go.
We go tell him to stop.
He can't be doing that.
You know he's not connected tous.
And Jesus says, no, let himkeep doing it.
If he's not against us, youknow he's for us and he's
obviously for us right here.
So do we have that sort of wordwe use around here as
theological hospitality forthose who are outside of our
(08:35):
Lutheran confessional tradition?
And then we narrow in on theperson and work of Jesus, which
we all agree on, the early creedof the early Christian church
with Jesus' Lord, done, jesus'Lord, there's no, there's no
other.
So I, I 100% agree with your,your work, and I have found the
exact same thing.
The more I enter intotheological hospitality type
(08:57):
conversations with those who areCatholic to charismatic and
everywhere in between, the more,not the less, the more I
appreciate the centrality of thegospel through the means of
grace as found in our Lutherantradition.
You've had that same experience.
It sounds like Phil.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Absolutely, and then you actually have some
conversations with ourconfessions and our faith, and
then they'll sit there like,yeah, that's good and you can.
You can have deeper and richerconversations through that.
So I just I just hate the factthat we're avoiding that.
You know, we have complicatedthings and then we start
focusing on not just thetheological wars but then all
(09:31):
the cultural wars that arehappening.
We're dividing ourselves withinour own church body with other
church bodies and it'sproblematic.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
If you live by the law, you'll die by the law.
Man and Jesus came as gospel,good news in flesh, and so
that's where we have to leadright now.
Your story, though, of thinkingyou were going to become a
pastor and then becoming a DCE,even going to the seminary for a
time, and I love the story ofyour, your, your wife and coming
(10:02):
to faith with a name like Curiewhy don't you tell that man,
this is awesome.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, so Curie is a co-director with what I do now
for a thousand leaders.
But Curie was not a Christianuntil she entered into high
school.
In fact, she got invited to goto a Baptist youth group and
because a friend just keptbugging her time after time, she
said fine, I'll go and became aJesus follower from that point
(10:28):
on.
And, oddly enough, kirie'sparents named her Kirie without
knowing what it meant.
They just love the 80s rocksong, mr Mr.
You know Kirie liez on down theroad that I must have no idea
what the name meant.
They said that sounds cool,gonna name our daughter that.
And, lo and behold, her name isKirie.
She's a Christ follower, lover,and, yeah, so that's her.
(10:53):
We met, oh man, like 15 yearsago, got married about 11 years
ago and and we got two boys,like you said before.
But at one point I was gettingready to enter into vicarage,
which is, you know, internshipfor LCMS pastors, and what
happened was I was having likean identity crisis.
(11:15):
I just wasn't sure if being apastor is really what my true
calling was.
I Constantly been thinkingabout just the American church,
right, how that's changing, howwe have congregations that are
closing, and my thought processat the time was I mean, I'm
gonna be 40 and 50.
I'm gonna be a pastor.
How am I gonna be able toprovide for my family at this
(11:36):
time?
And Also, I love the localchurch, and I mean provide for
my family if there's morechurches that close down?
So that was one thing.
But then the other thing was man, I got some other gifts and
passions.
We love the local church, wewant to help lead churches, but
we don't necessarily want to bepaid by them.
So God has gifted us with somany different, different gifts
(11:59):
and talents.
How can we use that to glorifyGod and other people?
And so that was the journeyquest.
And like it was hard.
I had a lot of pastors in myfamily.
A lot of Lutherans in my familyis like what are you doing?
What's wrong with you?
And I'm sure there wassomething wrong with me at the
time, but God has just had us ona wild journey that's led us to
(12:20):
where we're at right nowHelping lead within PLI
leadership, specifically athousand young leaders, hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I love it, man.
So tell us about thousand youngleaders.
It's been, if you've been inthe LCMS for a while I've heard
about this been out pre-covid.
I believe this kind ofinitiative with PLI took place
and I don't know what the COVIDjourney did to a thousand young
leaders, but bring us up tospeed on where that ministry is
with PLI.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah.
So we help training, coachChristian young adults to
identify their context andpassions, to lead community,
where anyone can introduce Jesusto people.
And so these young adultChristians they're non-church
workers, they're everydayleaders, they're business owners
, doctors, baristas, teachers.
We even have a NASCAR driverthat has joined a cohort for a
(13:05):
thousand leaders.
He just won a big race theother day, shout-out Landon
Huffman, and Anyways.
We help them discern andunderstand those things to
maximize their impact for thegospel of Jesus.
So, yes, as you mentionedbefore, we came out pre-covid,
so we were doing online virtualcommunities.
So we're doing this thingcalled zoom and no one ever
(13:27):
heard of it, and then now it'severywhere, right.
And so it's important to usthat we have these online
communities because we can'tnecessarily Ask them to take
time off of their work schedulesor whatever they're doing to
come to like a learningcommunity, you know, similar to
what you guys do at Unite, right.
And so we just do everythingonline with them, and so it's
(13:48):
just kind of it's good for themto identify that there's like
money Christians just like them.
They have a heart for Jesus andhave something more for their
friends and their communityaround them.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So we put them through a ten-month process To
help them dream and imagine whatthat could look like, and
there's just so much goodnessthat has come from that mmm, and
Tell a story or two of peoplewho have gone through and just
had and I'm sure everybody hasvarious stories of
transformation by the power ofspirit and word.
(14:17):
But have there been some newdreams that the Lord has kind of
brought about or just kind of areorientation of how Jesus
interacts in their Every daylife?
It's probably all of the aboveright.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, it's all the above, but what's?
I think the problem is and kindof getting back to the primary
question that you had beforelike we over complicate things
for people, right, we havesystems, as pastors and leaders
within our churches, of how wewant to create our leadership
pipelines, which is good, right,but also we forget about
actually Helping people discovertheir passions, their context,
(14:53):
where God has placed them, andso like, for instance, I talked
about a NASCAR driver thatjoined, right, he's like
mid-range, popular within theNASCAR world.
He'll like race on some of thebig Race weekends.
He's like one of those guysthat an owner will pay him to
qualify for a race and thenafter two laps He'll like park
the car, you know, and then nextyou know he's qualifying and
(15:15):
getting money for thatparticular race owner.
And so he was kind of having anidentity crisis.
When he was in a thousandleaders, he's like should I be
racing forever?
He was doing kind of likelow-level like Kind of, I guess,
think of like the minor leaguesfor NASCAR and he was doing
like short track racing.
Well, in between that time hewas struggling to make money.
You know he needed to raisemoney and so what he started
(15:37):
doing was he?
He had a twitch dream where hewas racing online Virtual NASCAR
races.
He grew his following to, Ithink, like four thousand
viewers a day that are watchinghim stream on twitch.
You know that was his thing.
He got sponsors.
He got paid for I'm DaleEarnhardt Jr Actually is one of
his sponsors and so what wascool was he was trying to figure
(16:00):
out how do I actually leadcommunity where people can
experience Jesus.
While going through a coachinghuddle, he discovered like, hey,
this is something that I do inan everyday purpose.
What if I invite people into adeeper conversation about Jesus?
And so he started introducingthat on his twitch dream.
Hey, if you, if you want toknow more about my, my story, my
faith, I'm actually open up azoomer in this day.
(16:20):
You can register here, andthat's where his his followers
got even a closer look of who hewas.
He put that out there and thething is it was simple.
It's something that he wasalready doing.
If we can actually take some ofthose things and elements of
how people lead, it becomes morethan just leading a small group
or a Bible study.
We are really maximizing thepotential of greater kingdom
(16:44):
opportunities, and just thinkabout how many people is
reaching in the name of JesusJust by using his passions of
racing Spectacular.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That we got a generational thing here.
You hang out with more youngpeople than I do, even though
I'm coaching high schoolfootball right now.
I've been.
I've been hearing about my, mykids drip like they're putting
on all this drip, you know, andI learned that's all.
Though they're swag, they wantto look cool and good and stuff.
I have not even heard of twitchdream bro.
You just brought out somethingto.
I don't even know that YouTubeis this it's a twitch.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
it's like a gaming thing for YouTube called twitch,
and, and Basically what itturned into is people like
watching people play video games.
I know my thing, but apparentlythis is a big following and
people are following some ofthese influencers out there, and
Landon happens to be Influencedfor the NASCAR industry.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So there you go, okay praise god, shout out to twitch
dreams connected to YouTube.
So what are some of those?
Oh, the stereotypes I get topass for fill in a
multi-generational congregation,you know it's a joy and in from
a lower income to higher incomekind of community and very
diverse, super fun.
But what are some of thosestereotypes that need to be
debunked around Young Jesusfollowers on my day?
(17:56):
You know we're.
So yeah, just, I love thisquestion because it leads us
toward, hopefully, humility andcuriosity.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, we're, we're the same as you all, and I say
that is now.
I'm getting older too.
I'm like on the 36 years old,like I feel out of touch.
I have no idea what jerk meanseither too, by the way, bro and
and so, but the thing is we'rethe same, you know, and Stop.
It's easy to kind of makestereotypes, to look at the data
(18:25):
and then not actually engage ina relationship, and so get to
know that person, right and?
And Stop making decisions basedon that data, right, so we'll
see what happens with that.
They want to be challenged intosomething deeper.
They don't want to necessarilyGo to your church because of the
amount or the lack of programs.
(18:47):
They actually are concernedabout their friends, that who
don't know Jesus.
And I think we we kind of fallin that lie like we don't have
enough in our kids ministry, ouryouth ministry, whatnot.
You know, if we are actuallyinvesting them in the way that
they, we can prepare them To bea missionary in the places that
they live, work and play, Ithink that's gonna resonate with
(19:10):
them more.
So let's just stop catering tothem.
Let's empower them forsomething more.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes, love it.
Do you know the Griners?
Do you know Micah and Sarah?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, he's a senior pastor at my my home church back
in the day.
No, way.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Okay, yeah, they're the ones that.
They're the ones that connecteddoes?
I got an email from Sarah backin the day.
Okay it's all.
It's all clicking together now.
So let's say that these athousand young leaders Grow up
and they're while.
They will grow up into the nextgeneration.
They'll be roughly in their 50sand and leading in areas of
influence, maybe within ourchurch, by Lutheran Church,
(19:49):
missouri Senate or other areasof leadership.
What do you think, how do youthink the church will look
different if we really see themas a generation that we can
learn from Humbly in this dayand age?
How do you think the AmericanChristian Church will look
different in 2050?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
It won't be as organized, it won't be Consumer
driven right.
We're gonna empower people toactually lead in ways that we
Didn't think that was possible.
I think for a lot of ourpastors and overseers in our
church body like that can bethreatening at first, because it
(20:28):
seems like their, their role ortheir power or whatever you
want to call it, is gonna lookless and less and You're gonna
actually have people living outsome of these God dreams that
they have in their hearts.
I think our local churches.
It would be easier to be ableto multiply those things, and so
(20:51):
I have a lot of hope.
But right now it appears thatthere's just so much power that
we want to be able to hold on to, and so I think it's gonna look
different, and that's why webelieve in what we do by
investing in a lot of theseleaders.
But it's gonna be a hardjourney to get there, because
(21:12):
it's not it's not top-down youdo this, it's it's bottom-up.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
What is the Lord doing in your life and in the
work of your community?
And you know that that's one ofmy big struggles, phil.
We're just getting to know oneanother.
But I can go on rants about theinstitutional systemic control
that Sometimes hamper as pastorsand leaders from dream big
dreams to multiply disciples atthe local level, because we've
outsourced Institutionalformation and, and I think we've
(21:40):
only made it one way thatyou're meant yeah, we've only
made one way.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I love the fact and I don't know if you talked about
it yet that you were conventionand you were trying to have
conversations with people.
What were you trying toconvince people of saying, like,
is there only one way to beable to do seminary training?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, they're multiple.
Do we need more paths forseminary formation?
And I, I was like a black sheepdude, some most people who just
kind of walk by like I'm nottouching that you know.
On the one hand I agree withyou but I'm not gonna say
anything.
On the other hand, I reallydon't agree with you because we
got to maintain Institute.
Our institutions or seminariesare the crown jewel of our
church body.
Not I've been making the casePhil's both hand.
It's not either or but right nowthere's this heavy, heavy
(22:17):
control right now, and I'mpraying for more openness as
what we're doing is assessed andanalyzed here in the United
leadership collective.
But yeah, I don't, I don't know.
It's just a fascinating.
I just love to know is itworking because I'm a pragmatist
, you know, I'm a localcongregation guy is what we're
doing as it relates to formationand then, just every day,
discipleship multiplication?
Is it?
Is it working in ourinstitutional, you know kind of
(22:40):
centrally controlled, based onthe institutions in st Louis?
Is it?
Is it actually producing thequantity and the quality of
disciple multipliers that thechurch needs into the next
generation?
And I think the answer is nah,I don't.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, this means that there's not fruit that's coming
from it.
But if we're talking aboutexponential growth, like no and
and I think also going back tothe church 2050, like If we look
back and said, okay, we wereokay of having some of these
hard strategic changes, right,no one's stripping away our
doctrine, no one's trying totake away our theological core
(23:15):
beliefs, like there's got to bea better way that we are
investing in leaders, trainingthe people of God, training our
overseers, all that being said,and breaking down some of that
power and control that we had.
So I applaud you for the factthat you're doing that.
I'm wondering was there anyonethat even wanted to approach the
conversation with you?
Like, what did that work?
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, we're releasing four different conversations,
you know three to four minutes.
The second vice president ofSynod, reverend Ben Ball, he's
gonna be on one of the podcastshere soon and I had a street
conversation with him.
I actually ended up gettingasked to leave.
My friend Joe and I just set upa little table off to the side
(23:58):
because we weren't likeregistered and had a table in
the main area because we wereboth voting delegates.
We took this from security.
They gave us absolute freedomand then we were told we can't
do that.
So then we moved out to thestreet corner and had like two
or three more conversationsthere.
But yeah, there's a there is, Ithink, a groundswell movement.
(24:18):
Not a large percentage, but Ithink it's in our generation and
younger who are just kind ofsaying we want to be about the
future of discipleship,multiplication, and where we
feel like we're getting heldback, and not just because of
length of time but also cost.
I think younger generations arealso looking at how expensive
(24:39):
everything is and saying like,whoa, that cost is really,
really heavy.
So, yeah, we can talk moreabout this, but I got other
things I want to talk to youabout as well.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Thank you for doing that, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, you're very welcome, bro, it's a super
joy.
So what words of wisdom wouldyou give to church leaders and
pastors who integrate youngleaders into the life of the
congregation?
You know, mentoring, coaching,apprenticeship, that hasn't
necessarily been hardwired intoa lot of our churches.
You know, pastors are doers andeverybody else are our
(25:11):
receivers.
This dichotomy, this wasactually at the convention.
This is a different topic thanjust a topic of formation.
But this, this theology that inthe church there are Proclaimers
, you know, preachers, and thenthere are hearers, and the two
should not be confused, this is,in my mind, an inordinately
high elevation of the office ofholy ministry at the expense of
(25:34):
the priesthood of all believers.
And we're always, as it relatesto some people, actually
thinking the Missouri Synodright now feel that evangelism
is solely the task of the localcalled-in-ordained servant of
the word.
And how crippling is that togospel multiplication, you know.
So what words of wisdom wouldyou give for pastors to say,
okay, I learned one way, Ilearned to be a doer of ministry
(25:58):
to now, Okay, can I identify?
Have the IC and youconversations with some of our
younger, younger leaders who arethere waiting to be Discover,
developed and deployed yourthoughts on that, phil.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, I mean, oftentimes when I talk to
pastors on the phone, they'retalking about thousand young
leaders.
They're thinking, by calling meand signing up some of their
young adult leaders for aspecific cohort, that this is
going to help them, have urgedthem and encourage them to be a
volunteer on there, to be ontheir boards, right, because
(26:30):
like there's no young people,not only a church, but there's
no young people servingleadership, which is great.
I'm glad that they are aware ofthese things and they realize
it's going to be a problem ifthey don't address that issue.
But they they're simply justsending people To a training,
thinking that you know they'regonna get outcomes, they're
gonna benefit the church, thelocal church with itself, rather
(26:54):
than if they actually send andinvest in leaders, that it's
going to benefit and help thecommunity around them.
And From our perspective, likeit's really hard when we're
trying to measure differentthings.
We measure how many butts inthe pew, how many people are we
baptizing right now, a bignumber to measure.
So, like, how many young peopledo we have in our church?
Right, and except there couldbe other ways that we can
(27:18):
measure what, what Jesus isdoing through those lives.
And so I'm not saying thatPeople who have joined a
thousand leaders haven'tactually become the president of
their boards that, like it,actually has happened in a way.
But we need to start Investingin those types of leaders,
knowing that there could beopportunity for greater good in
their city and their communityand beyond.
(27:39):
So I don't know if that answersthe question.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I know it does, it does.
Yeah, what about?
Tell me a story of a pastor whohad the, the flip switched, you
know, and said, whoa, thisisn't about just getting them
into an area of leadership, butit's actually about me getting
to come alongside them to watchand learn and do a lot of what I
, what I get to do.
I could tell you a handful ofthem here.
(28:03):
Our staff we got a hundred andthirty eight people actually on
our team and our school and ourchurch.
Two-thirds are in our, ourgrowing school.
But, man, it's such a joy I'mgonna be in a Gilbert campus
meeting here in in 15 minutes.
A third of those leaders are 28and under and Many of them are
being apprenticed to do pastoralministry roles or leading
(28:24):
admission, it's just, it's justa joy.
Some of them work in very, verypart-time.
Well, they got jobs in thecommunity that they're getting
after.
It's just so much fun to have adiversity of demographic in our
inner space.
So are there are other pastorsthat had that?
You know that light bulb.
Go on, man.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, one pastor sent a guy through a thousand
leaders and he's like I need toinvest in more.
He's gonna probably be our nextchair for our church, right, I
was like, okay, that's cool,sweet, right.
And as this particular personwas really going through the
cohort, they were able to reallyidentify the things that they
(29:03):
can also do and how they canlead within their own church,
and One of them just be anexample of like how to live out
faith and build new types ofcommunities.
And so there's one particularguy.
He just realized, as goingthrough assessments, that we
have character assessments andSpiritual disciplines, all these
different things.
Right, he realized at one pointthat he loved making pizzas and
(29:24):
his favorite thing to doactually was not doing any type
of leadership With the church,but he loved actually serving
the homeless shelter onSaturdays, and so what he did
was like how do I combine thosethings together?
How can we make it simple?
Well, he opened up a pizzabusiness and employing Homeless
men as a form of discipleshipand also so they can have some
(29:46):
sort of source of income and pay.
Right, he loved pizzas.
This is what he'd love to do.
And then, as the pastor waslike realizing that, it was like
, oh wait a minute, look what'sactually happening beyond our
church walls.
I mean, there was a smallchurch plant, I think, their
worship being like 50 to 60 in aSunday and realizing like hey,
it's, it's not about justdevelopment for how we have them
(30:07):
in our pipeline, but how are wesending them out to be good
news in these places, especiallywhat they're passionate about
as well?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, no, the the flip that needs to get switched.
For pastors and you justhighlighted it there is a move
away from Structure.
We need people in these rolesto story, to story, find the
stories of young people goingout and man, that's just such a
such a powerful story.
And that what I've found withthe power of story and this is
deeply theological Right is itshifts our cultures, man, it
(30:36):
shifts our perspective andpeople start to go from down and
in and grumpy and oh, why don'tI get to do this?
And that's like, oh, the worldis big and beautiful and there's
opportunity and good moves fromscarcity to abundance, just
like that of a pastor.
Learners the art of telling agood story, especially connected
to the next generation of Jesusfollowers going on mission to
make him known.
Man, isn't that true?
The power of story.
Anything more to add there,phil?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, I mean absolutely like.
For us, kiri and myself, welive on.
We always say, within our home,with our boys we want the name
of Jesus to be known on ChaseStreet.
This is where we live, right?
What are some of the thingsthat I love to do?
I Love getting guys together toplay poker, have cigars and
drink good bourbon right, it's afun time.
(31:20):
And so even on Friday, we had 14guys come over half the guys on
the street, not Christianwhatsoever.
We have some people that go toour local church of Christian or
have other brothers, like Isaid, that are in different
Denomination.
You know that they also want tobe able to join in as well, and
it's beautiful when you getlike a group of people together,
(31:40):
and I kid you're not.
On Friday, one of the theneighbor, said dude, I can't
believe you're doing this.
Like, why, why are you doingthis?
Well, like, why are you openingup your home?
And we got to the point I won'tshare what exactly what I had to
say, but what, what I'm tryingto get after, like, that's a
spiritual Conversation that wasabout to be had.
(32:02):
Right, and we can prepare morepeople for those types of
conversations, those types ofstories.
Imagine what the, the priest ofall believers, can be about.
Right, they're gonna beempowered and equipped to be
able to lead, to bring good news, to be able to share the gospel
.
And guess what you can?
You can really simplify that ofhow you build community today.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's, that's amazing.
Thank you for for doing that.
There are so many of that ofthat story happening right now
People starting to pastor their,their block or their community.
I mean, I think that's that'shouse, church in in action,
right there.
Do people ever ask you if, phil, what do you, what do you do
for work?
Because this is a hard one forme Well, and pastor, church and
(32:47):
school, blah, blah, blah.
You know that kind of thing andsometimes I get I'm not trying
to lie or be disingenuous oranything, but I I have teased
out I get a.
I get a focus on leadership,development and people being,
you know, cared for, loved andthen mobilized to bring love and
care into their community.
That, at the core, is what I doas a pastoral leader.
So, yeah, what do you say whensomeone says what do you do,
(33:10):
phil?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
I mean I don't specifically work in a local
church right now.
You know I work for PLIleadership, so I do share that.
I work for a leadershiporganization that does
consulting and training forministry leaders Globally and
worldwide, which is enough forthem to feel a little bit
awkward, right, and that's okay.
Yeah, it's important to be ableto listen to their story.
All right, and so I'll listento their story.
(33:33):
You know, connect the dots thatway.
But you know, if you have aconversation long enough and you
get to some of those heartissues, you know walls begin to
break down and and you knowpeople get a little bit
comfortable.
You know, as I shared, we hadpoker and I mean with all the
Christians ever in the roomthere was a lot of Gds from all
the other people that were beingmouth, you know after that,
(33:55):
which is like it's kind of likea different environment to be in
.
But like they know exactly whatI do, they know that I love
Jesus, they know that I'm aChrist follower I've never shied
away from that but they alsofeel comfortable to Be who they
are, even knowing what my roleis.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, yeah, I've had the same experience.
I've been golfing for years andyears and, yeah, there it can
be a little bit of a sailormouth out on the course and
stuff and and.
But they feel comfortable, theyfeel like I'm a normal human
that they can have real-lifeconversations about.
And I've got the privilege thenof Pasturing through the ups
and downs and funerals of ahandful of my brothers over over
(34:34):
the years.
So yeah, I pray we're placingourselves in more of those
environments.
How are you praying for becausewe're part of the Lutheran
Church Missouri Senate multiplegenerations how are you praying
that the LCMS as a church bodybecomes healthier, phil?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I really kind of struggle this question as you
sent it over, but I think thatthe first gut reaction that came
to mind was just kindness,seeking less power, being okay
With different strategic ideas.
We can continue to beessentially a word in sacrament
(35:11):
Gospel church, right, but Ithink there's got to be less
power.
We got to stop fighting overthese secondary issues and we
got to learn to have aconversation and Be okay with
approaching hard conversationsthe fact that I'm sure people
(35:32):
were walking by you atconvention.
They're like I don't even wantto touch that right there.
We got to be okay, just havingsome of these conversations.
There's got to be a way todemonstrate this where people
can see that, okay, we can bebrothers and sisters and have
different ideas of what were thesacrament word in sacrament
ministry look like, but we canbe together and there's just too
(35:55):
much division, too muchseparation.
I want I want people to beunified in the faith.
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Amen, can you give.
I've been praying forcontextual hospitality.
We talk about theologicalhospitality, but just contextual
hospitality.
Can you go deeper into whatsome of those secondary issues
that you think we divide on areand even then you and I can kind
of Model what it looks like tohave a conversation around some
of these things that aresecondary?
(36:20):
But here's it, here's who getsto say what a secondary issue is
, because some of what we thinkare secondary maybe, maybe
primary, intimately connected.
It's like a through string too,and everything's gonna unravel,
man, if you pull on that, onthat string.
So give me an example of asecondary doctrinal issue which
is really coming full circlethere, a lot of what we talked
about at the very beginning.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
This is great, phil well, I mean, I Was not in the
weeds of all the things thatwere being passed at convention,
right, but I do know that someof the bigger issues that were
being talked about Is Concordia,texas, right, I, I know that
you were in an interview withthem and you, you were willing
to have the conversation withthem and actually learn of what
(36:58):
was going on, right from theirperspective.
Those issues where now it'sbecoming a he said, she said, is
not like there's there'smisinformation going out there?
You know that not the wholestory is actually being shared
and and it's we're so stuck onsome of these things of what we
think who's breaking whatcommandment and whatnot.
(37:20):
So that that's an issue that Ifeel like is pretty concerning
to me.
You know the other thing, too,and if you ever have the
conversation with Lutheran, it'slike you know I may not
necessarily Like everything thatmy congregation does, but I'm
glad that we believe in the onetrue faith, right, and they're
(37:43):
thinking that you know, wow,like all of our theological
Convictions are correct comparedto everyone else out there,
without actually exploring someof those secondary issues with
other people and thedenominations and actually
learning, I feel like likebefore I could be strengthened
of more what those theologicalsecondary issues might look like
If I actually have someconversations with people about
(38:06):
them.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah for sure.
And that's to get to the why ofwhy I do these podcasts feel is
is to have those conversations,because you and I, you and I
generally, I think we couldprobably find some areas.
We're like.
I don't know if I do it likethat, but generally I think,
given our stories, we're gonnaagree on 99% of just a lot of
things were both mission.
We want the next generation,but I I gotta listen to the guys
(38:31):
who are concerned about, well,one of the hot button issues the
role of women in the church.
You know, let's look at, let'slook at scripture today and
there were, there were someResolutions being brought
forward that really want tonarrow, narrow the focus of of
women and their and their voicewithin a church.
So how do I listen, withcharity and kindness and and
(38:52):
also that's where it gets downto, contextual hospitality is in
your, in your community.
Maybe that, maybe that worksfor you to narrow the role of
women in our community.
It doesn't, it doesn't helpthat that much you know.
So, yeah, and I could go downthe way, the way the Lord supper
gets administered, you know, Ithink we need to have some
contextual hospitality there.
I shout out to President Harrisand his explanation of the the
(39:17):
close nature of communion for us.
I agree with.
They need to know that this isa meal connected to the Triune
God.
I need to know it's a realpresence and baptized in the
name of the Triune God,confessing their sins, in need
of transformation by the powerof the Holy Spirit, coming
broken and contrite like abruised I bruised wheat reed or
(39:37):
smoldering wick.
You know Isaiah says so calmman, broken let's go.
This is, this is for, this isfor you and I.
Rather than a card carryingwe're not Wisconsin sinner
rather than the card carrying.
Member of this, thiscongregation Per se.
So there was some, there weresome areas at the convention or
I was like, ah, that was, thatwas pretty charitable, that was
pretty, pretty pastoral, and soI, I really would love to.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
I'm sure there's good stuff too, and I just was not
like actually paying attentionto everything what was going on
the convention, so I couldn'tgive you like any like real
examples, but you just know thatsome of those things are there
and there's also good thingsthat come out of these
Conversations that happen atconvention too for sure, and if
I could give one prayer, it'sthat relationships would take
(40:19):
predominance over rules, andthis is the way we do things.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Well, unless you hear what's going on in our unique
context.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
We should hold a very open hand with those rules and
hold tightly to relationship, toChrist and to one another and,
to be honest with you, like I'vehad to repent through that too,
because I'll go into certainConversations with different key
leaders within our sin andthinking, oh, they're gonna be
that much more different than me, we're not even gonna meet at
the same place.
(40:48):
And then after having an hourconversation, I was like whoa,
like repentance all over, likeI'm glad I had that conversation
and I can't go into some ofthese things, thinking that the
relationship is Gonna be thatfar off and and so that has been
a deep learning for me and Ineed to be able to approach more
of those people that I thinkthat are gonna land on a
(41:10):
different side.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I agree, I agree, I've been.
I've been amazed.
It's interesting how humanbeings we have conversations
before the conversationAnticipate how this is all gonna
go down.
So can we put the bestconstruction on everything and
go into every conversation withit an open mind and heart and a
Humble desire to learn.
This person has gifts to giveand gifts to receive and I just
(41:35):
went.
That's just such a more Freeingposture to take in any sort of
relationship.
Right, I don't have to be Godfor you, I don't have to
convince you.
Actually, the harder I try toconvince you, the less
convincing it is.
The tighter the relationship is, the more the Holy Spirit has
room to work and to to change.
But this can't be about me.
This is really poor theology.
I have to come in to win man.
(41:57):
No one, no one wins when thathappens only the.
Holy Spirit can create andSustain and sanctify us in the
true Christian face.
So there needs to be more HolySpirit and less us.
Anything more to add on that,phil?
Amen, all right, bro, so how do?
how do spiritual disciplines?
You're awesome.
Last question here, this hasbeen fun.
I love your heart.
How do spiritual disciplinesimpact your life as a leader of
(42:21):
Leaders?
And then, what are some of yourI love?
Are the you all see lovestalking, the rhythms that
disciplines of the of theBaptized Jesus followers, some
of your kind of favoritedisciplines.
For me, they kind of evolvefrom season to season, life,
life Circumstances and such.
So let's close with aconversation about spiritual
disciplines.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
I yeah, I love this question.
So I'm a type one diabetic andI was diagnosed 8808 and part of
my story, my journey,especially when I was diagnosed
it was before my senior year offootball, concordia, chicago,
and Probably for the next fiveto six years I was not taking
care of myself what whatsoever.
(42:59):
In fact I created an eatingdisorder out of it and when I
was just consuming so much foodand sugar and I lost a ton of
weight and I was like, oh man, Ifeel look better because I was
an offensive lineman you knowoffense, I'm a big boys, right.
So I lost a ton of weight,wasn't taking care of myself and
I was honestly like a wreckduring that time.
(43:22):
And so since then, with thehelp of my wife and close
friends and loved ones andfamily, like I have been on a
journey of like, hey, how do I,how do I take care of myself?
So I give my best to the peoplearound me, not just my family,
but if God has given me anopportunity to connect with
neighbors and loved ones andco-workers In a way to be able
(43:42):
to bring good news, like I needto be able to take care of
myself, and so that has led tome of just being really diligent
, of how I measure sugars, whatI, what I, what I do.
So while I was taking care ofmyself, I gained all that weight
back throughout time and andeven though my a1c levels were
(44:03):
good, my sugars were good.
I was just thinking like man,there's got to be a better way
that I can even feel healthier.
So just recently, in the pastlike three months, I've done
more intermittent fasting, macrocounting and I've lost like 27
pounds since that time andbecause it's just like there's
so much opportunity To give toother people.
(44:26):
So that is part of, you know,my spiritual discipline is like
how do I become even moreconscious of taking care of
myself, of how much water Idrink?
You know what I'm, what I'mlimiting and you know, because
God has given us so muchopportunity and I don't want to
be able to waste that for myfamily and my neighbors and
people that love the most, sothat that really impacts how I
(44:50):
lead with what I do right now.
It impacts how I can share mystory, because there's a lot of
repentance that I've needed towork through and to share what
that looks like with otherpeople around me, and Jesus uses
that.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Oh man, I love this topic so much.
And one congratulations forListen to your body and going on
a journey to just care for thetemple of the Holy Spirit that
the Lord has given you.
It's not about more years inyour life, you know, keep them,
keep them fearful, keep themmedicated.
That's a lot of what's going onin our world today.
(45:26):
And saying, no, I have someagency.
And, powered by the Holy Spirit, I want more years in my life.
I want to go out.
I'm not years of my life, alife in my years.
I want to go out swinging man.
I want, I want the day before Idie to be like pouring into
other people, if it all, if itall possible.
And in America we're not livinglonger, we're dying longer and
we're just.
You know that that should notbe for the church.
(45:48):
So I really believe the churchwould be a model of health, not
for vanity sake that we all havean ego and pride and all that
kind of stuff, but fordiscipleship sake, for for the
others sake.
And I want, I want maximumenergy.
And I gotta tell you a funnystory as we're closing here did
yesterday yesterday was Sundayand I Didn't preach preach it at
(46:10):
one of our campuses.
Four times I actually led ledworship and I practiced
intermittent fasting for gosh.
A few years ago I did a bloodsample work and lost some pounds
.
But I just wanted to, justwanted to lean up so I could be
more, more present for folks,and have continued on with the
the water and I pretty much justeat between a noon and six
(46:31):
Window on Sundays, though I eatlike a little bit of fruit to
get the blood sugars up as I'mkind of coming low around 10 or
so in the morning.
I know my body well enough toknow that's what I need before
our last service.
Well, I went home after thelast service and it was hoping
to get some protein, like I needa lot, a lot of protein, right.
But there was this.
My family and we don't do thisvery often, though my kids would
(46:51):
say we probably do it too oftenbut my wife had taken the kids
and this is nothing to answer toTaco Bell, okay, to Taco Bell
and my kids.
They got good metabolism, theycan move some stuff there.
So I had.
I came home and I had a chalupathat had been sitting out for
about 30 minutes and I went andplayed nine holes of golf with
my daughter who's getting readyfor a match today and I'm not
(47:11):
even joking, I'm a real avidgolfer.
Five holes in, bro, I had toquit.
My stomach was just turning andnot.
It was not good.
And even last night I went tobed at 9, I reset, I was like I
don't know if I'm gonna be ableto be on with Rick and Phil
today, but the Lord, the Lord,allowed me to get my water and
flush them stuff through like Idon't.
I don't know that.
We're talking enough in thechurch about Soul care connected
(47:33):
to physical care, because theyare not distinct.
One is impacting the other.
Right, what we put into ourbody shapes our brain, shapes
our mentality and and can leadto Chronic fight-flight-freeze
mode.
Right, rather than fully beingpresent for people, what we
consume Can consume us and andlead us more inward, more
(47:56):
anxiety, more fear rather thanmore abundance.
And again, every person has tofigure this out for themselves.
This is all a conversationcovered in the mercy and grace
of Jesus, but it's not okay tonot have a way that you're
trying to maximize the, theamazing, miraculous body that
Jesus has given to you.
So I just applaud you, phil,for going on that journey, you
(48:18):
and your family and your thosethat you get an impact are just
gonna be better for it.
It's not about perfection, it'sjust about progress.
Man, you know, just taking theright next next step.
Anything more to say, though, onphysical care.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Yeah, I mean, I long for the new body, right.
I long where my body will nolonger have type 1 diabetes.
But it's part of my story rightnow, right and the way, each
and every day, that I'm soconscious of taking care of
myself Just gives me so muchmore energy, gives me so much
(48:48):
more opportunity.
And you know what, like it'salmost like it's now becoming
way more addicting of, like whatI'm consuming between 12 and 6
pm, right, like I feel so muchbetter, like my body craves that
stuff.
Like you said, taco Bell and Iwas I was done, dude like
there's just no way that you canput that in my body right now,
because I love that.
(49:09):
I would be out the next day too,and so I want to be able to
give my best, I think.
And then also, like I want tobe a living example of as I'm
discipling other people, like ifI'm asking people to imitate me
, like I also want them toimitate, like even some of those
health disciplines that I havethat can lead to Some of those
spiritual opportunities thatwe're talking about.
(49:30):
So it's important stuff and Ifeel like it's easy, like, well,
we have a good a Disabilityplan or a good insurance plan
that's gonna take care of ourneeds like no.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
We need to take care of ourselves today, and so it's
just important for me, self-careis not selfish and the
decisions we make today aredeposits, gifts to our future
self, and I pray we can see thatnot as something that's
legalistic, but just a Greatopportunity to steward this one
life which will be resurrected,brand new, eternal and
(50:02):
perishable, powerful, immortalbodies which will come.
We're not Gnostics.
We care about the physicalreality, the creation God has
given to us and the new creationthat we are In Christ.
So this has been so much fun,phil.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Speaker 3 (50:16):
Yeah, check out 1kylorg, that is our website.
We have a cohort For a thousandleaders and starting November
6th, so check us out there.
And then on Facebook andInstagram you can find us with a
thousand young leaders, and sowe love to connect with you and
hear your story and and be apart of your God dreams, so and
(50:37):
help you discern through that.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
One kylorg Yep one, kylorg that was.
That was cool man, so this hasbeen so much fun.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.
Sharing is caring the comments,whether it's on YouTube or it's
on Spotify or iTunes, gettingthe word out.
This podcast is growing and wepray we're just having more
Jesus-centered conversationswith people Following not
(50:59):
perfectly, but following afterJesus, using the respective
gifts that he has given to them,just like Phil Klopke is doing
in his Nashville and nationalwork with the next generation of
leaders.
I feel you are Inspiring andit's an honor to meet you today
and pray we get to meet inperson in the near future.
Man, thanks so much for beingwith me today on American
Reformation.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yeah man a way to bring the drip the drip, there
we go, drip it up.
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