From Addition to Multiplication: Redefining Church Growth and Discipleship with Steve Pike

Are you ready to discover the profound impact of shifting from an addition to a multiplication mentality in the context of the church? If so, this enlightening conversation welcoming back Steve Pike, the author of 'Next Wave,' is one you can't miss. This isn't just about adding numbers to the church but about fostering a culture of disciples who, in turn, create more disciples, thereby instigating a potent cycle of growth and outreach.

This episode transcends the bounds of conventional church discourse as we look at how disciple making can shape our everyday lives and influence our relationships. We challenge the packed schedules of leaders and explore how prioritizing disciple making, even if it requires personal sacrifices, can lead to lasting impact. We also confront the rampant busyness of church activities, highlighting how it can sometimes eclipse the real mission of reaching those who are yet to follow Jesus.

In the final stretches of our conversation, we debunk myths related to making a difference and expound on how even a small group of dedicated individuals can ignite profound change. We discuss the nuances of leadership and how understanding our unique strengths and gifts can catalyze positive influence. So prepare to redefine your understanding of growth, delve into discipleship, and discover practical ways to bring about significant transformation in your community. Tune in, and let's embark on this transformative journey together.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's

(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Happy day.
Welcome to the AmericanReformation Podcast, tim Allman,
here with my co-host brotherfrom another mother who just
moved Matt, you just told me youtransitioned to St Louis.
Now for those of you who are inthe Lutheran Church of Missouri
Synod, you went to Mecca.
Tell me about that move andintroduce our guest today for
the second time.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Yes, well, that move is really tied tightly to the
stuff that we're talking about,because we've moved four times
in the last 12 months.
I don't suggest that to anyone,but when God leads, you follow,
but it's really cool.
Yeah, we live down the streetnow from the Purple Palace.
If you can believe that, no way.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Purple Palace is the international center of the
Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod.
So are you like?
Five minutes away.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, I just got to get on the bike and get there.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, let's pop in and talk a mission of
multiplication.
Can I get on?
I want to go to the council ofpresidents meeting and talk
about multiplying leaders.
You ought to try that soon,matt, that'd be great.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
You know, I just hang outside and I'll see who walks
by.
We'll just have conversations.
But hey, I'm really excitedbecause we're here with Steve
Pike, who he's one of the voicesin my life that's been just
pivotal in thinking aboutmultiplication and thinking
about moving from kind of theolder paradigm that I grew up in

(02:03):
, which is not bad, like we saidbefore.
But if we're going to thrive inthe 21st century and we're
going to reach those that needJesus, we've got to make some
mental shifts and Steve's beenhuge in talking through those
shifts.
So I'm so excited to introduceyou guys to Steve.
He's in Colorado, leads urbanislands, and Steve, thanks for

(02:24):
being with us again, man.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Thanks for having me back.
I guess I wasn't a disaster thefirst time, so not at all man.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Oh man, well, actually it's fun.
So, if you guys check it out,we do have a first conversation
that we had, and Steve wrotethis incredible book, next Wave,
and Next Wave is all aboutthese 10 mission shifts that we
need to make 12.
Sorry, 12.
Mission shifts.
We need to make you knowclearly.

(02:58):
I read extra close.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
We're talking about number.
You told me we're going to talkabout number 11 today, so I
didn't want to confuse thewatchers.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
As I was thinking about Next Wave, I realized you
wrote that book and that bookliterally released during the
pandemic, which couldn't havebeen a more perfect time,
because I think if it hadreleased before the pandemic,
people would have read it andbeen like oh you know, whatever,
like everything seems to begoing fine, everything shuts
down and it's like reading thisprophetic work.

(03:31):
In fact, I shared it witheverybody because I was sitting
in a seven hour COVID test linereading Steve's book going.
I think more people need toread this, but the shifts in
there it's phenomenal.
You need to check it out online.
But we talked a lot about thoseshifts, so go back and watch
the first one if you haven'twatched it.

(03:52):
But let's talk shift 11 andthis idea of moving from this
addition mentality to amultiplication mentality.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, you know.
I think that the premise of thebook is that the 20th century
church kind of landed on somepractices and values that
actually served well in the 20thcentury culture, but moving
into the 21st century they'renot so helpful, and so I was.
My whole idea was to say thisis where we've been and this is

(04:27):
where we need to go.
And so addition is is where wewere in the 20th century, and
what I mean by that was churcheswere sort of sort of just
content to add people to thenumber of people sitting in the
pews.
So it wasn't unusual in 20thcentury for a church consultant
to be engaged with a church andthe goal would be to have if the

(04:53):
consultation process wassuccessful, the goal would be to
have 20% more people.
That would be like almostimpossible.
But the idea of if we get ayear from now, have 20% more
people that are worshipingtogether than big win, which
certainly is a good thing.
Progress, kingdom progress.

(05:14):
More people following Jesus,more people deciding to
intentionally go worship withothers Nothing wrong with that
at all.
But when you look at thebiblical model of how the church
moves forward, the early churchwas actually built on a

(05:35):
platform.
This is the way I say.
It, built on a platform ofmaking disciples, and that is
the foundational idea behindmultiplication.
Multiplication is not some kindof you know whatever a technique
for growing the church faster.
I mean, if you approachmultiplication as that, you're

(05:58):
probably going to get it wrong.
But multiplication is actuallybuilt on the foundation of
disciple making, where Jesussaid go and make disciples,
teaching them to observe thingsI've commanded you, and
basically what he had commandedto do was go and make disciples
as well.
Of course you know the rest ofthat verse kind of talks about

(06:19):
helping people become part of aworshiping community and all the
things that are part of that.
But the beginning of that, thereciprocating invitation, is to
you become a disciple maker, whomakes disciples, who makes
disciples, who makes disciples.
And when that begins to happen,then it is the foundation of

(06:41):
multiplication.
So it starts, if you will, itstarts at the granular level.
Multiplication is not a programnecessarily.
I mean, there are things we cando and should do to help our
organizations and our churchesbecome multipliers, and there
are some organizational things,but it's really really, really

(07:04):
hard to do it from the top downwithout the bottom up happening.
And so multiplication at itsheart, at its root, is disciples
making disciples.
So disciples begat disciples.
Groups of disciples becomechurches and they begat churches
.
Churches become, you know,collections of churches that

(07:29):
maybe turn into networks ordenominations or whatever.
And you know for that to whenthat happens, the church will
have no problem staying up withpopulation growth, all the
challenges that are part of thechurch.
So addition is reallyinadequate to keep up with the

(07:53):
pace of change and ruralpopulation growth and all that
sort of stuff.
Multiplication is the only waythat we're going to get there.
So that's kind of the basicidea.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Well, steve, what I hear you saying is
multiplication is a bad goal buta good outcome, just like
addition was.
Addition was a bad goal but agood outcome.
And I think the problem is westart to turn it into the goal
Right, and then it's like, okay,well, we'll just swap out
addition for multiplication,that'll become the goal.
Let's get the consultants inhere.

(08:24):
You know they'll tell us that.
And what you're saying is theway to get there is to not focus
on that at all and to justfocus on the core of what we
were always called to, which isdisciple making, which, if I
remember correctly, somebodysaid that in scripture, that
that should be our focus.
I'm just trying to remember whothat was.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, yes, and I want to emphasize we start there.
That's got to be the foundation, like if we get the disciple
making piece right, then therecan be institutional
intentionality that harnessesthe kind of the DNA of
multiplication that's built intodisciple making, and so you can

(09:06):
see institutionalmultiplication best.
I think you can artificiallykind of prop it up by sort of
you know, learning the tricks ofthe trade of multiplication and
saying, okay, you know, ourchurch is going to start two
churches a year from now untilJesus comes, and people make
stuff, make up ideas like that,call it multiplication.

(09:29):
But that's still actually aform of addition.
Multiplication really happenswhen, yes, when you make the
goal hey, wait a minute, what ifwe all become disciple makers
and we help each other do that?
And when that happens it's likethe natural.
As you said, it's the outcomethat's important, it's

(09:54):
multiplication is not the goal,it's the desired outcome.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, this is good, steve.
So many of our listeners areconnected to the Lutheran Church
, lutheran Church of MissouriSynod, a confessing, you know,
very conservative church body.
And it's interesting, we'realmost 200 years old, by the way
, we're celebrating our 175thanniversary as a church body.
But I look historically, thetension between the priesthood

(10:22):
of all believers and the officeof holy ministry is where is
where I think the crux of thisstruggle, especially in a
post-Christian secular culture,is, because if there's an
imbalance on well, the pastordoes it.
If he's not the Word andsacrament guy you all come and
receive, I would say right now,that may have worked for a while

(10:44):
.
And discipleship from 10 tomaybe 200 people.
But if Jesus only had 12 andthen he sent the 12, like how
could we think we can reallydeeply disciple many more than
Jesus?
But what words of encouragementwould you give to someone who
says but man, how are we goingto work through this cultural
shift of thinking the pastordoes it all and how would you

(11:07):
back up that cultural shift withscripture, steve?

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, those are really great questions.
I'll start with, I really thinkthis.
So a lot of times, pastors hearstuff like this and we're
listening to it as okay, I wantto find the latest hot technique
to be able to jump on thebandwagon that all the cool kids

(11:34):
are involved in, and I thinkeven Lutheran ministers, who are
steeped in all the traditionsof a Lutheran church, are
pragmatic enough to think youknow, I want my church to get as
much benefit from, you know,the latest things that are being
learned and all that kind ofstuff.

(11:55):
So they're.
So they think about it fromthat aspect and their thought is
how do I get people to, how doI get my people to make
disciples Is kind of where theyland, and so they come up with
okay, let's do a whatever sermonseries or, you know, a seminar
or a cohort or whatever, andit'll all be about disciple

(12:17):
making and people will graduateand go make disciples and that's
how we get this going.
So here's what I would say thekey is the leader, the pastor,
whatever the title of the personis needs to become a disciple
maker First, like we have to getout.
It's not.
You know, being behind thepulpit is not wrong.

(12:37):
But if that's all we do, we'renot actually doing what Jesus
said all of us are to be doing,which is to make disciples.
And that's, I guess that's, thescriptural justification His
Jesus said.
He didn't say I just want theleaders to make disciples or I
just want the followers to makedisciples.
He says go and make disciples,talking to his disciples and

(12:59):
again built, if you, if you justread that, read that command or
meditate on the command, it isa, it's got this built in.
It's like, as it gets passed onit, it just keeps going and
going and going, so that ripplesdown through the centuries to
us as a fundamentalresponsibility for every person.

(13:21):
And so it starts with the, thepastor deciding, or the leader,
whatever the title the personhas.
I'm personally going to beengaged in making disciples.
And once that person beginsdoing it and then begins to
invite others along with them,that's when a disciple making

(13:43):
movement can actually get going.
And if the pastor doesn't dothat, what happens is other
people will pick up the slackand they become the leaders.
They set in motion a disciplemaking movement and you know,
then it gets awkward because youknow, if the pastor's not
involved, if it's a side thing.

(14:03):
Uh, there are all kinds ofweird stuff can happen.
You know, churches can havesplits and blah, blah, blah.
So it's, you know, I just Ithink the challenge is every
pastor has to decide, everyleader has to decide that I'm
going to become a disciple makermyself first.
That's, that's my first steptowards setting in motion a
multiplication movement.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Well, and I think, steve, you hit the nail on the
head and we are, we are thebiggest lid and we have to die a
lot more to ourselves to beable to do that.
That's been, that's been whatwe've been doing the last year,
and let me tell you the shift.
It's challenging when you'reused to preaching to several
hundred people and then the newdynamic is to pour deeply into

(14:49):
three or four, uh, and take thattime to do that, and and you're
scheduling that in witheverything else you're doing, um
, and it's like, okay, well, Idon't have time.
Well, if you don't have time,how can we look at the stay at
home mom with four kids and sayyou should make time, or the guy
that's, you know, working asecond job to support the like?

(15:09):
But if we look at our scheduleand say I need to make time for
discipleship, how can Irepurpose, how can I be more
intentional?
We realized discipling canhappen as we go.
But once we pull that lid offand we died to ourselves a
little bit, man, that's whenthis movement really begins.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, one of the keythings is learning to say no to
stuff.
You know you really have tolook at all the stuff you're
doing and ask the question isthat what I'm really called to
do?
You know, whatever thatspecific thing is, because we
know we're called to makedisciples.
So that's a high, high, high,high priority.

(15:47):
And, um, that means we need tobe willing to look at, um,
everything.
Just take everything we do andlay it before God and say, okay,
what, where cause you you?
We have to find space for this.
We have to now.
Here's the thing.
I think it's easier than wethink to build disciple making

(16:09):
to our lives.
And you know, part of the, therest of next wave or other
portions of next wave we talkabout what we think is just a
it's, it's, it's a modern dayexplanation of what disciple
making was viewed as by theearly disciples, and bottom line
is they were always makingdisciples like, like, wherever

(16:32):
they went.
Disciple making was not confinedto the church building, it
wasn't confined to a class, itwasn't confined to teaching, it
was literally life on life.
And so, for example, I live ina high rise apartment building
in downtown Denver and you know,today I got on the elevator to
take my dog out and there wasanother person on the elevator

(16:55):
and you've got like five secondsor 10 seconds depending on how
many floors you're going, and Isee that like, like the way my
the shift has happened in mybrain is that's a disciple
making opportunity.
Now, obviously I can't take theperson in five seconds from you
know, richard Dawkins, atheist,to whoever your favorite.

(17:20):
You know, martin Luther, Iguess would be the right person
for the Lutherans to be excitedabout, but anyway, I can't take
them from one end of thespectrum to the other.
But you know, I can dosomething to help that person
move toward Jesus and that's so,that's what disciple in my mind
.
So so disciple making actuallycan be more embedded hat.

(17:42):
But here's the thing One of thechallenges is that we've
defined healthy followership ofJesus as only being designed
involved in in church activities, and so we sort of have this
dichotomy.
It's a false dichotomy, likewhen I'm with the church, then
I'm serving God and I'm honoringGod and da, da, da, but when
I'm working my job or I'm out inthe community, at Costco or

(18:05):
whatever it may be, that's,that's not spiritual, and I
think we might have talked aboutthis last time, but I often,
you know, I just remind peoplethe dichotomy is not sacred or
secular.
That's a false dichotomy.
I think it's actually a satanicdichotomy.
The dichotomy is sacred orsinful.

(18:25):
And so, as a follower of Jesus,everything I do is sacred.
Everything, you know havinglunch at a restaurant, taking a
walk with a neighbor, riding theelevator with a neighbor,
that's all.
Those are all sacred moments,as well as being gathered around
the Lord's table, you know,preaching or receiving a

(18:48):
ministry from of the word,that's.
That's sacred too.
But so, because as a follower ofJesus, everything I do is
sacred unless it's sinful, thenthat means everything I'm doing
every day walking my dog, youknow, going to the store, and so
there's.
You're actually influencingmore people toward Jesus just by

(19:13):
living your life as a person ofthe spirit, a person full of
the spirit.
Then we often give ourselvescredit.
So it's not like, okay, I haveto schedule two hours this week
to make disciples per se.
It might be.
How can I just look at what'salready happening in my life,
make a few adjustments where itputs me?

(19:35):
I think I started to say this.
The problem is a lot of times,because we've associated sacred
with only church activities,then we think that we're only
making disciples when we're in achurch, like an intentional
churchy kind of environment, andwe have to shift the idea that
no, no, everything I'm doing,sometimes it will involve, you

(19:59):
know, deeply evaluating, talkingthrough scripture with somebody
, helping somebody decideliterally pray to you know,
decide to follow Jesus andaccept His Lord and Savior.
But other times it's just beinga kind person that they want to
have a conversation with again,you know, and so that's part of

(20:21):
disciple making too.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
So man, steve.
That is profound, matt.
I want to go deeper on thesacred and secular dichotomy.
But what did you want to talkabout, matt?
That was not about love.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
We've Steve hit the nail on the head.
In fact, we need to look forthose easy opportunities to
start discipling.
We were working with the churchin Vancouver and they started
their pastor started training inthis with us and then he
started changing his businessmeetings to start with Discovery
Bible study 1015 minutes ofyour meeting.

(20:54):
All of a sudden this discoveryBible study starts to shape his
team and then somebody on histeam won't mention who his
brother across the countrystarts having some problems
issues.
So this guy from his team,because he's had Discovery Bible
study and discipleship modeledfor him, says hey, let's do
discovery Bible study together.

(21:15):
They start discipling and allof a sudden he is helping him
grow in the faith from acrossthe country because a business
meeting turned into adiscipleship opportunity and I
think there's all kinds ofopportunities for that.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm.
So it's not necessarily Now itcan be again.
I want to make a point that theearly church like there was
nobody at the point where Jesussaid I will build my church in
the gates of hell and I prevailof against it, there were not

(21:50):
very many people in the worldthat were following Jesus at
that point.
So the point is, if the peoplewho heard that just said, well,
our response to that is we'rejust going to meet together
every week, several times a week, and we're just going to talk
to each other and we're notgoing to share this with anybody
else, that would kind of bemissing the whole point.

(22:12):
So there was a they.
Somehow they intentionallyembedded in their lives the
sharing of the gospel, theliving out of the gospel, in
such a way that over the next300 years Christianity ended up
being the religion of the empire.
And again, there's some greatbooks about how and why that

(22:35):
happened.
But Rodney Stark's book talksabout.
His conclusion is how did thisvery minor cult, basically in
year 33, come the religion ofthe empire?
What made it different than allthe other little cultic groups

(22:55):
that were populating the RomanEmpire?
And his answer was that theChristians actually lived out
the gospel.
Basically, that's just mysummation of his summary
paragraph of his answer.
So the point is there's real.
There's real power in justembedding it into your life, in
everything you do, not just evenin church business, but just

(23:15):
seeing yourself as helpingsomebody that isn't, doesn't
even think they want to followJesus.
They may be like again, richardDawkins, atheist, they're not
looking to follow Jesus.
And you say, hey, you want tocome into a discovery Bible
study?
Their answer might be no way,but that doesn't stop you from

(23:37):
seeking to make a disciple ofthem.
My attitude is we keep givingthem the opportunity to follow
Jesus, but depending on wherethe person is at.
And what you just described isa beautiful illustration of
making great use of time.
But even so, what I'm trying toI guess where I'm going is
sometimes our busyness withchurch activities actually

(24:01):
prevents us from having time toeven interact with people who
aren't already following Jesus.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
We just so almost, Steve like we're exacerbating
the sacred secular divide.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, exactly, and so we actually have to kind of
break out of our bubble.
Like think of it, as we've gota contagious positive disease
and we got to be around otherpeople for them to catch it or
it's not, we're going to only bethe ones that have it.
And so that means we have tochange, like, our habits.

(24:32):
We have to be intentional.
You know, I've talked to NowI've helped a lot of pastors
make this shift and you knowthey say, well, I just don't
have time.
I'm always in church and Inever have an opportunity to
interact with somebody who's nota believer and I just say, okay
, well then what might you do?
Well, one guy said, you know,I've always wanted to learn how
to do jujitsu, so he joined ajujitsu class and now about half

(24:57):
of his class is part of hischurch.
You know, after a year.
You know it takes a while, butso there's, you build
intentionality and sometimeseven churches have such a busy
habit of church stuff that theydon't the people that are fully
invested in the church don'treally have bandwidth to

(25:18):
interact with people who are notfollowing Jesus.
So, anyway, if you, weencourage people to see disciple
making as everything that goeson across the whole spectrum,
from you bumping into somebodywho's not following Jesus.
Disciple making begins there.
That's where disciple makingbegins.
They don't know it, but you'restarting to help them move

(25:39):
toward Jesus.
You're doing the best you canto help them move toward Jesus
All the way across to.
They're making disciples whomake disciples, who make
disciples.
That's so.
I think the revolution we haveto have in our thinking is,
instead of segment, I thinkevangelism happens inside of
disciple making.
Disciple making is the wholething.
Making a disciple starts beforethe person decides to follow

(26:01):
Jesus and continues after theperson.
But in the middle is where thatevangelism opportunity happens,
or the evangelism moment.
They decide to follow Jesus,but you just call the whole
thing disciple making and thenthat helps you, not?
It's easier to embed thatinstead of saying, okay, now
we're going to go outsoul-winning, you know, for the

(26:22):
next two hours, and then we'regoing to stop and we're just
going to.
No, we're just going to bemaking disciples all the time
and have people in our livesthat are at all different places
along the journey and that'show we're going to do it.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Steve, I love this.
There is so much so what I hear.
Just to summarize if you're achurch leader in your hobby,
whatever it is, it gets yououtside.
Whatever the rhythm is, this iswhere you get a bump into
people who are on the way toJesus.
But then I think it's for theeveryday follower of Jesus it's

(26:58):
just a re-understanding,actually, of Luther's idea of
vocation.
In your going, wherever God hasplaced you with a unique gift
God has given you, buildrelationships that lead people
to know and follow Jesus.
Do you agree with that, steve?
Is that?

Speaker 4 (27:13):
another way to understand it Absolutely, and
the Actually the role of thechurch kind of shifts from come
here and serve Jesus to we'rehere to help you as you go and
do what you just described.
You know, like everybody's gota vocation and we've sort of
downplayed that and we've madeit like people who are in
ministry, leadership roles, youknow vocational ministry they're

(27:35):
the heroes in the kingdom andeverybody else, you know, is
just like Again, we reinforcethis unhealthy idea about the
church and really it's the otherway around.
The church, the gathered church, exists to be a place of
resourcing and encouragement, sothat people are equipped to go
out on mission in their everydaylife, and that's where the real

(27:58):
ministry is happening.
That's probably not the rightway to say it.
It's where ministry happens.
That's just as real as ministrythat happens within the
confines of the churchactivities.
It's both and not either or.
But we've emphasized so much,you know, the institutional and
the you know, religious I thinkI just made up a new word there

(28:21):
Aspects of, you know, followingJesus to the demise, of just
being present with people andletting the Holy Spirit work
through us in their lives.
And we have.
I think the difference is being.
You know, that's kind ofhappening anyway.
But when you're cognizant, whenyou're aware, when you're like,

(28:41):
okay, I'm on an elevator forfive seconds with this person,
what can I do just to help himmove toward Jesus?
And you know, most of the timefor me that just means be a kind
person, you know, just make itwhere they think, okay, I
wouldn't mind talking to thatperson again, you know.
And then maybe a month laterwe're at a HOA picnic and we sit

(29:03):
across the table from eachother and now we start to meet
each other, you know, and he'snot afraid to sit across the
table from me because he had agood experience on an elevator,
you know.
And then, as we have aconversation, we start sharing
life and, you know, I find outsome of his background and you
know, that's how that's actuallydisciple making on the

(29:24):
pre-conversion side.
And we need to become not only,we need to become conscious of
that.
It's not rocket science, wejust need to see it.
We need to make it what we callit what it is and help people
to realize wow, there's tons ofopportunities already happening
in my life.
I just hadn't thought of itthat way and it really changes

(29:44):
it in people's lives.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well and I want to know what you're talking about.
Go ahead, go ahead, Matt.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Oh, I was just going to say like I think sometimes
we're afraid of the wordsre-imagine or innovation,
because we think about it ascreating something completely
new, instead of realizing thatthe best innovation is just
going back to the core of yourDNA.
I mean, listen to what Steve'sbeen talking about.
He's been talking about here'swhat the early church did, you
know.
Here's how they moved andreached out.

(30:09):
And then Steve is diggingdeeply into something that you
know a lot of Lutherans shouldbe super passionate about, which
is vocation.
Like Luther was really thestandout in saying every job is
sacred, every job is a sacredcalling from God.
And I don't know you know, tim,maybe you can help me.
I don't know where along thepath we lost that, but we need

(30:31):
to go back, remember that andreally embed that in our people.
Because you know the days oflowering the bar to show up to
worship, put money in the plate,invite a friend out so we can
see.
You know that's a low, lowdiscipleship bar.
That, to me, is the differencebetween.
You know, my three boys loveworking out.
The older two will jump upthere and do pull ups.

(30:53):
The younger one, who's only six, he wants to do them too.
So he jumps up there and I kindof like have to oh yeah, you're
doing them bud, you know.
And it's like that's what we'redoing to the church.
We're making them think they'redoing something that they're
not doing, instead of saying hey, I think it's time for you guys
to learn how to do this, and wewant to equip you to do it.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah.
So some thoughts there.
I think that vocation is thinkof a teeter totter, a re
understanding of Christianvocation all offices husband,
mother, father, et cetera outinto the community.
That is the balancing seesawmechanism that moves us to
office of holy ministry.

(31:35):
The church needs leaders and weare called to be on mission to
send out the priesthood of allbelievers, to multiply the
message of Christ to the masses.
So I think we need to digdeeply into vocation.
It is the catalyst that I think.
Then, when we get together forthe gathering, I think the Lord
is doing a new thing right now.
Steve, in the gathered and thenscattered church, those that are

(31:58):
coming to my church as I'mtalking about really the mindset
and the heart space of thedisciple of Jesus going out just
yesterday, preached on do notbe angry.
Anger is not in the Bible.
Anger does not produce therighteousness of God.
So they're eager to have theircharacter shape more after the
heart of Christ.
Why?
Because the struggle againstsin, death and the devil is a

(32:21):
real thing that they'reencountering right now.
And Satan go back to that sacredand secular satanic divide.
I believe it is assault ofSatan.
Man.
Jesus came to seek and savethose that are lost.
Jesus goes after the one.
Jesus came to love the world,and right now we're making those
that have different ideologiesour enemy, and they're not our

(32:45):
enemy.
Satan and his lies is the enemy.
So anything more to say aboutwhere that kind of came from,
and I think the church right nowis falling off on one side or
another?
I could speak to folks that areon the far, far right, that
just are.
I mean the far right.
This is a religious type of amovement right now, and you

(33:06):
could say the far left as well,if you're just talking politics.
The way of Jesus walks thatmiddle middle road or moves us
to find heavenly solutions toheavenly problems.
Where everyone else is playingfinding earthly solutions or
earthly problems, and that'sSatan's playground there.
Anything more to say, though,where this sacred and secular

(33:27):
satanic divide kind of came from, steve.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
Well, I think it's been a part of the dynamic of
the challenge and the dynamic ofthe church pretty much through
the whole story of the church.
That's just there's sort ofthere's the pendulum swing of
the church.
We tend to emphasize differentthings at different times and so

(33:54):
I think what happens is, as sinabounds, grace abounds more,
but also as sin abounds, we feellike we have to do something
about it and we decide theanswer is to move harder this
way and avoid sin and stay awayfrom sin and obviously stay away
from personal sin.
But no, there's a differencebetween staying away from
personal sin and staying awayfrom sinners, people who need

(34:17):
Jesus, and when we so.
Anyway, I think I don't know.
That's a great question.
I mean, some of it might be thepoliticalization of the church,
where we tangled up, the churchgot tangled up with a certain
brand of politics and actually,depending on the church you're
part of, different parts of thechurch tend to be tangled up in

(34:37):
different sides of the politicaldivide.
There's churches that are moreleft-leaning, they resonate more
with the message of the left,and there's churches that
resonate more with the messageof the right, and I just submit
that Jesus is equal opportunityoffender and he would.
If you take everything he saysand you're hard right, you're

(35:01):
going to be offended.
If you take everything he saysand you're hard left, you're
going to be offended becausehe's calling.
And I think when the churchjust allows itself to be
hijacked by these polarizingviews instead of being oriented
around Jesus, that's when youget into trouble.
But I think the solution againis get back to this simple thing
.
The solution is not some kindof media campaign to tell the

(35:25):
church to it's not even goingfor the middle that's another
myth is like the middle is asafe place.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Jesus is a safe place to be.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, jesus is Exactly, exactly, it's not like
okay, we have to compromise somemiddle ground and we're not
trying to make everybody happy,we're trying to follow Jesus.
And there's a small littlestory.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Matt, can I just?
There's a small little story ofJesus that we often overlook.
That I think is reallyformative in Luke 9.
So, luke 9 at the beginning yougot the sending of the 12, and
then Luke 10, obviously sendingthe 70, 72.
And then, toward the end ofchapter 9, there's this journey
with Jesus and the disciplesthrough a Samaritan town that

(36:08):
rejects him.
Do you remember this?
They reject Jesus and thedisciples, and the disciples go
do you want to call down firefrom heaven to consume them?
Right, and Jesus?
It simply says and Jesusrebukes them sternly.
Right.
And my vernacular.
He's like come on, man, don'tyou know, if fire comes down
from heaven, we're all burningbecause we all deserve, we've

(36:29):
all rejected.
So you got a lot to learn, son,as you start to follow me, not
just the what but the how offollowing me, because if you've
lost love for the Samaritan whohas rejected me, for the
neighbor that has rejected me,man, you have lost.
You have lost me.
So anything else to add there,matt?

Speaker 3 (36:48):
No, I just love.
I love the way you talk aboutthat, because you know what.
Honestly, whenever I thinkabout that story, the idea of
hey, we're going to burn up too,hadn't crossed my mind.
But yeah, clearly, proximity isgoing to create a problem for
everybody.
But I think also there's thatidea of I wonder, if Jesus is
sitting there going, man, howsurprised are they going to be

(37:09):
when they're going?
Okay, what's the mission?
The mission's obviously to tellall our Jewish brothers, who
have been waiting for theMessiah, that you're coming, and
Jesus says, no, I want you togo out to Jerusalem, judea,
samaria and the ends of theearth, and even the challenge
the disciples had with that.
Because I think that the kindof thing we're talking about,
it's going to create tension,it's going to create challenges.

(37:30):
That did in the book of Actsthat's why you have Acts,
chapter 15, and they're tryingto work out what does it look
like now that all these Gentilesare in the church and what?
And that meant change for thechurch and some things they held
on to pretty closely.
But I think the important thingthat I hear over and over in
this conversation is we have torecapture the art of disciple

(37:54):
making and it's like my buddyMack Lake said he goes in his
generation.
We focus so hard on getting 10to 12 together that we lost the
art of sitting across a cup ofcoffee and making a disciple.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah, you know another story that is maybe
we'll speak to this conversationas well is Jesus going into
Jericho?
And you've got all the peoplewaving and, you know, excited,
jesus is here and he's goingalong through the streets and I

(38:31):
don't know.
It doesn't say I'm not.
I don't think he ignored people, but it's fascinating that he
picked out the worst sinner intown.
I mean Jesus was always makingthis point, like if you were
following around, you were goingto see him.
He was called a friend ofsinners and so in that story of
Zacchaeus, zacchaeus wasactually in collusion with the

(38:53):
Roman occupiers to basicallyextort money out of his fellow
Jewish people.
I mean he was Bernie Madoff onsteroids and I mean just another
level of the guy was just,frankly, he was evil.
You know, I mean that's how hewas viewed by the people in his
town.
And Jesus, in front of allthose people, said hey,

(39:17):
zacchaeus, I want to come havetable fellowship with you today
at your house.
Okay, so Jesus is, he's tellingeverybody, this is where my
priority is, and he gets.
You know, I don't know whenthis happened exactly, but at
the end of that story as it'swrapping up in, jesus is either
at or he's headed to Zacchaeus'house.

(39:40):
He makes this statement I cameto seek and save that which is
lost and therein, that is themission of Jesus.
And therefore, if he, if, ifhe's the one building his church
, that's the mission of thechurch is to seek and to save
that which is lost.
And Jesus is saying if you'regoing to follow me, you're going

(40:02):
to be intentionally going afterlost people and it's ugly and
it's counter-cultural and it'sit's not going to be understood
by religious people.
Religious people are reallygoing.
What is he doing?
This can't be the son of God.
He's, he's having a meal with,with this evil man, and yet.

(40:22):
So the whole point is, ourmission we join with Jesus on,
is seeking and saving that whichis lost.
And yeah, so enough said.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
So, steve, I love the dynamic we got going right here
, because I'm seeing myself onthe left of the screen and I
kind of took the option of like,let's start something new to be
able to do this.
Tim, my brother over there onthe right side of the screen, he
is taking something that hasexisted and he's making these

(40:54):
shifts and doing some reallycool things in the way of that.
So you're looking at both of us, you're coaching us.
What advice are you giving usindividually to make these
shifts we need to make, to moveinto disciple making?

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Yeah.
So a lot of times again, I'lljust jump back to sort of a
institutional answer to startwith, but I'll get I'll get to a
more practical for him in aminute.
But a lot of times whenorganizations are thinking about
existing churches and newchurches, they treat them almost
as competitors.
And you know, it's like ifyou're going to start a new

(41:28):
church, we got plenty of moneyand we're going to put you up on
a stage and, you know, throwglitter at you or whatever.
And for those of you that areplugging away with an existing
church, god bless you.
I hope it works out, you know,and we'll throw a few bucks your
way if you come up with a goodplan or something.
So you know, it creates thistension between church planners

(41:49):
and pastors of existing churcheswho are trying to help that
church flourish again, becausewe're we're treating and we
treat them as different, likechurch planning is great and
good and the other is, you know,okay, you just got to plug it
out.
Anyway, here's what I would sayto that.
I believe that church plantingand church renewal, church

(42:11):
revitalization whatever labelyou want to give to it are the
same thing, starting in adifferent place.
Okay, I think that's reallyhelpful to think that way,
because the end goal is to havea healthy, multiplying church.
Okay, but with a new churchyou're starting at a very

(42:32):
different place than you arewith an existing church and
actually I think it's way harder.
So, between the two of you guys, I have way more respect for
Tim than I do for Matt, becauseMatt's taken the easy way out.
He's like me.
Oh no, no, that's not true.
I'm going to do the fun thing,because it's actually easier to
start a church from scratch thanit is to help a church that's

(42:53):
already been on a journey toflourish again, and that it
requires a higher level ofleadership skill.
There's just a whole.
It's just really a hard thingto do.
That's why it's not a supercommon story is.
You see a lot of churches wheretheir story is?
They just kind of go along, goalong, go.

(43:15):
In fact, tom Rainer, the guyfrom Lifeway, did a.
He wrote a book that was thepre.
I can't remember the name ofthe book now, but it was.
The premise of the book was hewas going to do the same thing
that Jim Collins did with Goodto Great for companies.
He basically studied a bunch ofcompanies that went from being
good companies to greatcompanies.

(43:36):
And he was looking for thesecret sauce like what's the
common elements that all ofthose companies that went from
good to great and that's whatthe book is about there's, like
I forget how many commonelements that he found that were
common practices that helped achurch go from good to great.
Tom Rainer decided, hey, I'mgoing to do the same thing for
the church.
What a service.

(43:57):
So he came up with theseparameters like how do you
define, when a church has gonefrom good to great, what's a
good church and what's a greatchurch?
And so he actually decided onjust, I think before he started
looking for him, he said well,it's got to be and I don't
remember the specific parameters, but they had to do with number
of baptisms, you know stufflike that Okay, so, and there's

(44:20):
got to be, like this, certainpercentage increase.
But here's the one key, or theone element that he made sure
was part of it was the sameleader had to be there when the
church was good, through whenthe church became great.
So he got a sample of 50,000churches five, zero thousand

(44:43):
churches to study, looking forchurches that fit the parameters
that he had come up with ofwhat it means to go from good to
great, and the thing that stuckout to me was he didn't
actually put this in the maincontent of the book.
It was in the footnotes.

(45:04):
How many of these churches50,000, he said.
He only 13, one, three out of50,000 fit the parameter.
And that's, those are thechurches he wrote the book about
was.
Here's what they have in common.
But my takeaway was it's almostimpossible, right, that's not

(45:28):
encouraging.
Yeah, so.
So that's why I'm saying it's areally hard thing to do.
It's a really rare thing to do,but I think part of the
solution is that you hear,here's the mistake that a lot of
leaders make.
So I guess I'm looking at you,tim, and I would say, if you

(45:49):
want to see your church flourishinto the future and be able to
develop new habits, one of themistakes, or a mistake to avoid,
would be saying I want to takethe whole church on the journey
at the same time, and success isthat everybody that is
currently part of the church,whatever two years in the future

(46:11):
, is going to be part of this,this new vibrant church, or this
reimagined church, whatever itmay be.
I think that is a that's really, really difficult to pull off,
where you bring everybody alongwith you all at the same time.
So what, what I would recommend?
So let me back.
Let me let me switch to Mattfor a second and say if you're

(46:32):
starting a new church, don'tworry about the congregation as
much as you worry about makingdisciples.
Okay, that's going to set youoff and that.
Pour your energy into makingdisciples and the congregation
will take care of itself, butyou might be able to gather a
bunch of people together thatcall themselves a congregation,
but none of them are makingdisciples, and you know, all you

(46:55):
have there is is a bunch ofChristians getting together and
they like Matt, you know, andthe messages that Matt preached.
Okay, so, going back to Tim, sowhat?
What we recommend, and whatwe've seen be successful, is
that you, as the leader,identify some people within the
congregation that you under,based on their behavior, their

(47:19):
whatever.
This is more of an art than ascience, but you identify some
people and you invite them intoa journey together and you start
by saying I'm going to makedisciples and you know, I don't
know how to.
Maybe you do know how to do it,but let's just assume you don't
.
And so I'm going to makedisciples and I'm I'm scared and

(47:41):
I don't know what to do.
And you know we're going to,you're going to watch me first,
and then you invite them tostart to make disciples, and so
this isn't a you know, thisisn't a preach, a sermon series
for six weeks, and then thechurch is reimagined.
You actually almost, in a way,you're forming a side con

(48:04):
congregation, if you will, agroup of people who you invite
into a different rhythm and youleave the bulk of the people.
Just not leave them.
It's not the right word, butyou, you don't mess with what's
already, what you're alreadydoing, you know, because if you
go, you go with the theories ofa diffusion of innovation.
It makes total sense.

(48:26):
Only about 20% of people arereally interested in change to
the point that they're willingto change their behaviors.
So instead of the 80% are not,they prefer to stay the same.
So, instead of fighting thatresistance and making that where
you have to put your energy, gowith the goers you know and,
and then you have to.
So I always say reduce theenergy you're giving to the

(48:51):
people who are going to be proneto sort of just stay where
they're at and increase yourenergy to this group over here.
Give your energy here.
Figure out a way to do thiswith minimum energy and over
time, this is going to start toflourish because it's loaded
with life and over time, peoplein the existing congregation are
going to go wow, this I love.

(49:11):
What's happened in Billy Bob'slife, you know, and how is that
happening?
And they start finding outabout it.
And so, instead of trying to,you know, conquer this huge
resistance that people have wellintended resistance.
They're not evil people.
Instead of trying to overcomethat, you instead give, breathe,

(49:33):
life and energy into people whoare ready to go there, go into
the new and let that grow andgrow and grow, and pretty soon
at some point.
Well, there's.
There's probably two out ofthree outcomes that might happen
with this kind of process.
One would be you really, youreally get it wrong and you blow
the church up, and that's onepossibility, okay.

(49:54):
The second possibility is youactually realize, okay, what
this, what we've created overhere, is actually a seed for a
new church, and instead oftrying to bring the two
congregations together, you justsend this one out and then you
do it again.
That's not a bad thing.
And the other option would bethat you find a way where

(50:14):
there's enough excitementgenerated where the the, the
bulk of people say, yeah, we, wewant to go where this group's
going, and that can happen too.
So that that would be mycounsel to to you, tim, for an
existing church.
And then, matt, just build on aplatform to decide, making like
relentlessly uh, don't.
People will come to a newchurch and they're like, hey,

(50:35):
when are we going to start doingthis or that, and they're all
like institutional elements thatthey personally love and desire
, and they will sidetrack youfrom a disciple making focus.
Don't let them do that.
Stay focused, ah.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Steve.
So much wisdom there.
Bro, like I am, I am so excitedand I never want to forget what
it's like not to know.
So I'm 40 I'll be 42 next month.
I was 31 32 when I came into adivided church in school.
We have a lot of schools in theMissouri Synod and Financially
anxious, lot of debt.
We had 11 million dollars worthof debt, worshiping about 400

(51:12):
people, and so it was.
It was a little overwhelming,but I didn't have the wounds of
like trying stuff and it kind of.
So you're just like, yeah, Iwant to play the 31 year old
dumb pastor, like my entireministry.
You know where it's like.
I don't know exactly what God'sgonna do, but he called me here
and I Like you.

(51:32):
I like you and let's see whatthe Lord does and I promise to
be here to bring the wordconsistently with passion and
and I'm gonna invite otherpeople on so what we kind of did
.
You work with what you gotright.
You work with a willing.
It's a small group of peopleand this small group of lay
leaders came together Within sixmonths, steve, and started a
ministry called La Mesa.

(51:53):
Now that has two sites.
It's working.
Poor and homeless meals, resumebuilding, moving people into
sustainable living, and it thenew thing with a small group of
people Over the course of.
I'm not even in it, it's theLord's will, lord's timeline.
But it was like two years andkind and Christ Greenfield went

(52:14):
from being whoa man.
That church has some stuffgoing on the like.
They're a Missional,multiplying, new start type of
an engine and now our vision is20 campuses, 20 years,
multicarregational approachwhere we're starting some that
will be supported by ChristGreenfield, recognizing in time
they're gonna be, you know,probably self-sustaining,
different branding, all thatkind of stuff.

(52:34):
But the innovation that comeswith working, I don't know that.
You even got to get 20% rightout front.
Get five percent of the car.
No, yeah, get five.
So that's the biggest.
Yeah, that's another myth.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
That's another myth that needs to be blown up.
You know there's actually somereally good research has been
done on what the tipping pointis.
In fact I, the MalcolmGladwell's book tipping point
talks about, like what does ittake?
And he makes the point.
It says it could be as littleas three or four percent.
That's right.
That are people who arepassionately focused on a new

(53:07):
direction or on on, you know, anew way of being the church or
whatever can actually set inmotion a Profound movement in it
.
But you're, it sounds like whatyou're talking about is exhibit
a, what I just described.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
You know I didn't know, I didn't know it.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
But you know what, if you get behind the stories of
churches that have actuallyAccomplish what you've
accomplished, it's it's a verysimple.
They kind of stumble stumbleinto it.
So actually we wrote whathappened with next wave as
people started going well, whatabout new churches?
I mean, what about existingchurches?
Because next wave was sort ofwritten with the idea of these

(53:44):
are the shifts you got to makewhen you're starting a new
church.
And they said, what about anexisting church?
And so we actually are in theprocess of writing the book, the
reimagined church, whichbasically Takes this Brief
conversation we've had and justblows it up over another 12.
I'm like stuck on 12 chapters.
That's just my thing, apostles,you know whatever.

(54:05):
But you know we actually arewriting that book and should
come out in the fall, which theidea is to help.
Like you said, you kind ofaccidentally stumbled into it
out of Desperation and stupidityand maybe some, probably some
anointing of the spirit mixedinto the all of that.
But instead of instead ofpeople, you know, I again just

(54:28):
say here's some, here'ssomething to think about.
And I've actually the coolthing in writing the book, we've
actually been walking somegroups of congregations through
this exact process and helpingleaders do that.
And it's different in everysituation.
You know the situation youinherited is different, but it's
it's.
We're seeing it work wellacross, you know, denominational

(54:49):
differences, theologicalVariations, all that kind of
stuff.
It's just.
These are sort of justsociology.
It's not, it's not magic andit's not hidden.
It's stuff that everybody kindof into it.
Oh yeah, that makes sense andit works.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Well, and I think that's huge, steve, and kind of
you know, one of my lastquestions for you is, you know,
I think we can all agree thisthis is a shift we have to make
and we see a couple pathways wecould do it.
We could take the existing, wecould start new.
How do I determine whichpathway is best for me?
Because I think what I heard inTim's story is Ten years, and

(55:29):
when I'm thinking about my story, you know About ten years.
You know everything's gonnatake time in the making and it's
all gonna be wildfire.
So how do I help determinewhich pathway would be best for
me to make these moves?

Speaker 4 (55:45):
Yeah, I think it comes.
That's a that's a really greatquestion.
I don't know if there's a likesuper clean answer to that,
except to say, you know, there'sa sociological principle past
behavior predicts futurebehavior.
So, when you think, we reflectback on your leadership
opportunities, and where did youthrive?
Did you thrive where you, youbasically started with a clean

(56:08):
slate and there was nothing andyou created something, something
out of nothing, so to speak.
Or are you better Wired to besomebody who takes something
that's already there 11 millionin debt or whatever you said it
was?
You know and you know for.
So I'm, I'm wired to be astarter, like when, when Tim
said that that that sounds likean absolute nightmare to me.

(56:29):
I, I don't, I would go intothat situation.
Now I think, because I'm olderand I have some wisdom, I
probably wouldn't do this, butin my younger version of myself
I would have.
I would probably blown thatthing up, tim.
Tim has the right giftings Tounderstand how to nuance it and
work through it over time andnot get stuck.
You know one thing that canhappen with those churches they

(56:51):
just get stuck and you, youcan't move them off center
because you're you're getting soanyway, the point is it takes a
certain Wiring of a leader andand I, you know it's more
complicated than just two, twokinds of leaders.
But generally speaking,especially if your track record
is like okay, I started, youknow.
I mean I look back at my lifeand I've just been starting

(57:13):
stuff my whole life.
That's what I do, I start stuff, you know.
So it that's where my zone is,that's where I'm, that's my
happy place, that's my mostproductive place.
Once something gets going, Imean I started seeing them in,
you know, planted Severalthousand churches, and I got
bored with that, you know,because I wanted to move on
something else.
You know Other people would gowow, why did you leave that, you

(57:34):
know.
But that's.
I'm wired differently now.
On the other hand, there'speople who just go in and they
and you know they take somethingand make it better.
They see the opportunities inthe foundation, or they see the
opportunities.
And so Just reflect on your ownjourney and say you know what,
where am I most productive?
Where am I happiest?

(57:54):
Where am I, where do I seefruit?
And and that will kind ofanswer the question whether you
start something new or takesomething existing.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
This has been so much fun, steve, I mean I'm leaving.
The conversation was so muchJesus juice, hope, optimism,
there's.
There's so much opportunityright now In this chaotic, crazy
world in which Jesus died androse again, to redeem.
So, listener, whatever,whatever the Lord has placed

(58:25):
upon you, I just double-click onyour last thing deep dive on
knowing self, invite othertrusted friends to help you kind
of know the way you do it.
But then the non-negotiable ofthe conversation go on mission
to make disciples.
Who make, make disciples.
Find others if you're a pastor.
If you're a pastor, find othersyou can teach.
Second Timothy 2 to that theycan find others who can teach.

(58:47):
That could potentially, overtime, long after you're,
probably your soul, your spiritis with the Lord could be
reaching, reaching people, youknow, that's that's, and I don't
know that everybody has thatkind of in them.
But my, one of my prayers, steve, is that more of us, whether
you're a new leader starting outin your 20s or whatever, or
your, you know, a seasonedleader or somewhere in the

(59:09):
middle, like Matin and I, arethat you would kind of say, my
life it's not mine, and thislegacy it's not mine, it's a
legacy of Christ.
And and we, we think soindividual and so short term,
but Jesus thought.
Jesus thought way beyond himand well, let's go.
Not Jesus, obviously, yahweh,from the very beginning, my the

(59:34):
anger of the law.
I'm slow to anger, but what I'mon bounding instead, fast love,
excess 34, and that steadfastlove goes on to thousands of
generations of those who knowand Know and follow me, so that
we would think, but be beyondwhere we currently are right now
.
That's one of my prayers.
Any final thoughts, steve, asthis has been so much fun,
you're awesome, oh.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
I had a thought and Somewhere along the line it went
out the window.
I just I guess I would.
Yeah, I think I love the factthat you kind of Landed at the
place back where we started,which is making disciples, who
make disciples, and my challengewould be that everybody really
dig deep into that, andespecially the leader that has

(01:00:17):
kind of given themselvespermission to sort of Get into
the I don't know, just becomesomebody who teaches other
people.
I think you, you know, what'sbeautiful is when you have your
own stories that just happenedin the last two weeks or
something you know to tell aboutmaking disciples.
And it's not that hard to getthere because it's really just
starting to interact peoplearound with you.

(01:00:38):
But I think that is gonna bethe.
The tipping point of arevolution is when the leaders
of the church, themselves, beginto make disciples and then
invite other people around themto do the same thing.
It, that's, that's the wholepicture of the same Jesus.
Jesus said you've been watchingme make disciples, now you go
do this and we do the same thingand that's.

(01:00:59):
But you can't.
Jesus did it first.
You know he showed the way.
He didn't say okay, here's howyou make a disciple one to.
They just did it.
He showed them, and that's whatwe're, that, that's how we do
it.
So I think I just want to I tome, that's the key to the whole
thing.
That's like the foundation.
You get that right, everythingelse will land in the right

(01:01:21):
place.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Final thoughts Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
I would 100% agree and Realize, especially for your
church leader, it's.
It's gonna feel much smaller,and I don't want to use the word
insignificant, but maybeinsignificant to what you're
used to doing, but it's not one.
One year down the road it willbe unbelievable Seeing the

(01:01:46):
traction that happens.
So I just try.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
That reminds me of what I was gonna say earlier,
and there's the parable of thetalents, and, you know, one of
the things we have to avoid isComparing ourselves to.
There are some people who havefive talents, and some people
have two, and some people whohave one, and and you know,
though, they're all contributorsto the kingdom there, they

(01:02:10):
weren't viewed.
You see, that the only thingpeople got reviewed for was not
Using the talent they were given.
That's it wasn't.
You know what you should do.
The one should be doing as muchas the five.
It was.
So, anyway, the the point I'mtrying to make is absolutely
Don't measure.

(01:02:31):
We've got to put some kind ofblinders on, or something, and
stop trying to, you know, eitherbe intimidated by people that
we think are more talented thanus, or feel Superior to people
that we feel are less talentedthan us.
That's such a dangerous path togo down, yes, and it's super
subtle, and in this area ofmaking disciples, like you said,

(01:02:52):
matt, you know, I've seensituations depending on the
circumstance, it might take.
It might take a long timebefore you start to see fruit
that you feel like is worthcounting, and that's where we
get back to the other absolutefoundational principle that I
kind of talk about in the book alittle bit of obedience trumps
everything.
You know, one of the worstthings that happened at the 20th

(01:03:14):
century church was we madeexcellence the number one value
that everybody was shooting forand that is not a kingdom,
that's a, that's an Americanidea is excellence, is the
number one value.
Obedience Trumps excellenceevery time.
And so what is God calling youto do?
And if God's calling you to sitwith five people for five years

(01:03:36):
and just pour into them, thendo that.
And I realize that that createsa lot of Very practical
challenges like how do you, howdo you make a living if you're
doing that and stuff like that.
That's a whole notherdiscussion.
But if you know, the questionis, what is Jesus calling me to
do?
And then do it.
And you, if you're a one talentperson, that it's gonna be

(01:03:57):
different than a five talent.
It's stop looking at everybodyelse, just do what you're called
to do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Okay, this is so much fun.
Sayla, yes, well, this has beenso good, hey, steve, of people
want to connect with you andreimagined church.
Is that what we should look forhere in the the yes yes,
sometime in the fall.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
We're still working out the details, but the book is
basically written.
Yeah, so reimagined church,it'll.
It'll be available, I think itmight be.
This is premature, so Iprobably shouldn't say but that
we're working with a publisherand it may.
It'll be with a publisheryou're familiar with, maybe, and
but but anyway, to get in touchwith me, probably the simplest

(01:04:38):
email for me would be Steve s TVe at UIP, uip dot city.
Steve at UIP dot city.
That has the fewest letters init, so it's kind of the easiest
for people and that will get tome.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
So fun, matt, love partnering with you to learn
from amazing leaders like Steve,and I think we're gonna do this
a handful of times into thefuture and that will be.
That'll be great.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.
Sharing is caring.
Please like, subscribe it.
You guys may not know, but theUnited Leadership Collective
this is a podcast, unitedLeadership Collective.
The audience is growing andwherever you are taking this in,

(01:05:19):
if it encourages you and youfind joy, you find hope, you
find Encouragement to start newthings, to reach new people with
the gospel, or just do the oneright next thing, which is find
that, brother or sister, thatyour journey alongside your
neighbor, your co-worker, andjust start to lean into Jesus,
conversations with them, and theHoly Spirit will show up and
show off.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.

(01:05:40):
We'll see you next week.
Thanks so much, steve, thanksMatt.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
Thank you, thank you you.