September 13, 2023 • 40 mins
We're privileged to have Rick Meyer with us, a man whose impressive history of pastoring and caring for leaders is nothing short of inspiring. Today, we're journeying through the landscape of soul care, examining its pivotal role in the American Reformation. Rick’s insights on discipleship and relationships within the church will uplift you and rekindle your faith.
We'll journey into the depths of our faith as Rick shares his personal experiences and reflections on Psalm 22, a powerful tool for expressing our pain and responding to suffering. Rick's story of radical dependence on God during times of hardship illuminates the importance of the cross and the hope of resurrection. These reflections will guide us as we explore ways to nurture our own stories and care for the souls of others. The road may not always be easy, but the rewards of such explorations are rich and deeply fulfilling.
Finally, we venture into the often-untrodden territory of emotional needs and vulnerability. Here, Rick opens up about the importance of finding a safe space for sharing and the fear of appearing weak. We'll explore societal norms, the differences between men and women, and how we can foster an environment that allows for genuine expression. This episode is a powerful reminder that we are, each of us, fearfully and wonderfully made. So let's buckle up for an emotional and enlightening ride through soul care, discipleship, and emotional vulnerability in the church.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I am in rainy Arizonaright now.
Hurricane Hillary, her tail,has whippened through us and I
will tell you this man rain is agift from God, especially when
you spent the summer months in115 in Phoenix, arizona.
The rain of the Holy Spirit isabout to descend upon us today
(00:57):
as I get to talk with, get toknow more deeply, rick Meyer.
Rick has an amazing story ofpastoring as well as caring for
leaders and just loving thosethat are walking through the ups
and downs of life, which areinevitable.
Today, the topic is soul care,which, rick?
(01:18):
I don't think we can talk aboutthis topic too much.
I guess I would have delvedinto this, and so this is going
to be fun today.
But opening question how areyou praying for Reformation in
the American Christian Church,rick?
Rick Meyer.
Thanks for hanging out, rick.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Meyer Absolutely.
It's good to be here, man, andI'm grateful for your sake that
you got that rain, rick.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Meyer oh yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Rick Meyer, it's a beautiful thing at the
temperatures you guys have beenhaving.
Rick Meyer, yeah, I'm down.
Rick Meyer, the AmericanReformation Well, the word that
comes to my mind and I've beenactually thinking about this
quite a bit lately, because mylatest book that I'm in the
(01:59):
middle of writing really triesto pay attention to this subject
, and the word is discipleship.
And so you know this, I knowyou've thought a lot about it,
written about it.
Whenever I talk with a youngperson, say 18 to 25, and
(02:21):
they're in the church andthey're just really solidly
there, you know, and they'regrowing in their faith, they're
walk with the Lord, I like toask the question why did you
stay?
Why are you still in the church?
And invariably the answer comesback something like this
(02:49):
Someone outside of that youngperson's family invested in them
in the church.
They just poured into them.
They were the person who thatyoung kid knew whenever they
went to church, that this man,this woman, they were going to
ask about me, they were going todo a serious check in and
(03:12):
really love on them.
That was sort of like number oneis the thing I hear.
Second thing is they feltneeded.
They were involved at a youngage and to ministry.
And then the third thing goodfoundational teaching.
(03:32):
You know they can look back andsay you know, I really got the
basics.
You know those three.
If I mean, I just am getting soused to hearing those three
that where I my conclusion isthat's what all of us need at
(03:54):
every age.
If that was right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, it'd be totally changed, man.
I hear if a young person Iwould say any person just coming
into the church.
These are three core needs Willit be known, will I be needed
and will I grow in my knowledgeand fear the Lord?
There's some alliteration theretoo.
That's the height ofhospitality, I think.
(04:23):
I think a lot of times youthink hospitality at a church,
oh, that's like make sure wegive a handshake and people need
to be seen and cared for.
But are we setting upenvironments in the local church
where people can be, andespecially starting with our
younger folks?
I got a shout out to my friend,doug, who's pouring into my son
Malachi right now, and Doug cameto my son's football game,
(04:46):
drove out 45 minutes to come tohis football game on Friday
night and just his presencethere, that means the world.
And he's kind of like he's notmarried right now.
He's had a couple kids and justwants to pour and they're grown
, you know, and he just wants topour into my son and that means
so so much and we need moredugs, right, rick?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We do and Mary's, and they can be a lot older than
that and they're going to be,they're going to just have a
huge impact.
I mean, their own kids, theirown children and grandchildren
might be struggling and may notbe connected to faith and church
(05:28):
life, you know, but they'refinding a way to pour into
somebody who's right there andthat's just like you said.
I love the hospitality imagerythere.
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I think there's this balance for many church
leaders between organicrelationships taking place and
then how do?
What is the structure or theenvironment that needs to be
created for those environmentsto take place more naturally?
So in our context, small groupshave been a big deal for us and
a lot of life on life, you know, down through the generations.
(06:03):
Having moms and dads pouring toother kids, you know that's
really had a profound impact.
What we've been wrestling withrecently is service.
So what happens if an olderadult went and hung out with my
son around we'll say Doug andMalachi, they're going to serve
together at La Mesa and which isa meal and worship inclusive of
(06:25):
the working, poor and homeless,like doing that together and
then going out and grabbing, youknow, a cup of coffee or
something like that afterserving.
I mean the bonds that formthrough service and deepening
relationships are so, so huge.
So I tend to lean a little bitmore toward organic.
But there has to be some sortof intentionality about
leadership to say these are theenvironments where relationships
(06:47):
take place, especially crossgenerationally.
Anything more to add there,rick?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Well, I'm just thinking about you know you as a
pastor, and I've been inministry for over 30 years and I
there's just something thatanother person can do for my
child that I cannot do.
There's a lot that I can do,but I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm
(07:17):
part of that system and theyneed someone from outside of
that family system to recognizeand say you know, you're a value
, like you were saying you're,you're a value, enough value
that I care about you and I wantto, I want to hang with you, I
want to, you know, be one ofthose people in your life that
(07:38):
you can kind of count on.
And I'm going to look, and youknow the crush, Mentoring,
reverse mentoring, that mutualmentoring, whatever language you
want to use there.
You know it has to go the otherway.
You know it's not just I'm goingto teach you a few things, but,
(08:00):
man, I am interested in yourperspective and what you're
learning, because I'm going tolearn from you, I'm going to
grow from that.
And it's really easy for me asa late baby boomer, because I
desperately need help in so manyareas, that it's easy for me to
say, man, I just let's spend alittle time together because
(08:21):
you're going to need yourinsight here, you know,
especially when it comes totechnology, but relationally too
.
You know, these are differentgenerations.
They're growing up seeing andhearing things we didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, I'm coaching my son's football team right now.
So hanging out with 15 to 18year olds, you know, five, five,
six days a week, developingrelationships, it's super fun
and like the language that theyuse.
Rick, I don't, I don't know,I'm 42 right now and the kids
are coming out of the lockerroom and say, hey coach, hey
coach, what, what you thinkabout my drip?
(08:58):
I'm like, come again Now, whatdo you think?
What do you think about my drip?
And in it, like how good theylooked with their extra
accessories on their arms andtheir that's, that's drip, rick.
I probably just taught yousomething there.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You just taught me something.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah so.
I mean lots of learning newlanguage.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I mean, I, you know my, I think of coffee, my coffee
Drinks, right, you know coffee,yeah, a drippy, a drippy roof,
no, and it's what they're.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It's what they're wearing.
I can go into a whole bunch ofother, but there's, there needs
to be a mutuality in learning.
I'd love to talk with you.
What captured me about yourstory is your, your struggle
with shingles.
A lot of times people haveshingles and the Lord, you know.
He whispers to us in ourpleasures, but he shouts to us
in our struggles, right, and sowhat has God taught you through
(09:48):
pain and struggle with really achronic what it sounds like more
of a chronic battle withshingles and I know that's, I've
known brothers and sisters.
It's so, so painful.
Tell us about that story, whatthe Lord has revealed to you.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, and the blind eyes heard about it too.
You know, visited with peopleand man, you know, till you're
there.
You know you have a clue, butextreme pain and chronic pain is
the best I can say.
So I would love to tell youthat I started out right away
(10:23):
saying, all right, god, teach meand help me grow.
And on some level that wasthere, but it was almost more
like you know I was, I wasflying by instruments on that
one I knew that was the rightthing, the right posture, right,
but I didn't start there.
I mean this, this hit inJanuary of 17.
(10:48):
And it and Tim, it took me twoto three years to really start
moving in that direction.
For the first couple of years,you know, I didn't care if I
continued living or not.
I mean, thankfully we have Joband and Elijah and Jonah and you
(11:15):
know, and a number of thePsalms to draw upon to see that
there's an invitation for us togive expression to the hardest,
most vulnerable emotions.
But I, you know, I, I, I, I, I,I really felt as though God had
.
I thought God was there, but Ifelt as though he had turned his
(11:41):
face of blessing away from meand it's just genuinely the way
it feels.
I've talked with other peoplegoing through this now and they
gone through times too wherethey just at night, pray God,
please take me home to be withyou.
(12:01):
I just want to be with you.
And God says learn to pray yourown Psalm of lament.
I'm sorry, learn to pray yourown Psalm of lament.
So so I mean it's.
(12:22):
You know, my God, where are you?
Have you?
Have you abandoned me forever?
I mean this.
This is kind of stuff we findin those individual Psalms of
lament, and these are people offaith crying out.
I can't tell you how many timesI've tried to encourage people
going through hardship andpainful situations that you know
(12:45):
you might not feel it on anemotional level, but God wants
you to say this.
Now he's turned into me andsaying Rick, I want this full on
, and I had hard, hardconversations with God.
I I told God some things thatyou know looking around and I'm
(13:06):
really not wanting anyone elseto hear what I'm saying, but one
of the things that got becamereinforced for me was what did
Jesus choose to spare To speakfrom the cross?
I gotta, I gotta get to thecross right, and you know, psalm
23 is probably the best knownPsalm of any right.
(13:29):
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not, I shall not be inwant.
It's just sings of comfort andthe joy of the Lord.
But our Lord didn't choosePsalm 23.
Yes, sir, psalm 22.
My God, my God, why have youforsaken me?
And in that moment I know Ihave a God who understands me
(13:51):
better than I know myself,because he understands the
question why I'm starting to getpreachy.
I love it, rick.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Sorry about that it's just life, man.
It's just life.
Eventually we're all going tobe there and I think the the
blessing of suffering is is justradical dependence upon God.
Right, yeah.
And Romans five is so searedinto my memory because I walk
alongside secondhand trauma andand then I've experienced my own
(14:24):
struggles and my family andthings, and we all, we all do.
It's inevitable, but Paul's,paul's journey of faith to
rejoice and suffering, knowingthat here's the trajectory of
life.
It's perseverance, scott, I'mgoing to trust in you.
I'm going to develop.
There's a lot that's beingwritten right now about grit.
I'm not going to give up.
But even though I feel like itand I may even tell you that I
(14:45):
feel like it, perseverance andthat character, that radical
dependence upon you, througheverything you must be my rock
and my shield, that very presenthelp and trouble, even though
it feels like you've forsaken me, turned your back on me.
I know you in essence turnedyour back on the sun and the sun
will never turn his back on me.
He loves me more and he sitswith me.
He knows what it is to sufferand even cry and weep over my
(15:09):
suffering, and then that movesus to the hope of the
resurrection on the last daywhen suffering, trial, lost
tears, death itself will foreverbe vanquished.
So you got me preaching to here.
That's the ultimate goal is theway of.
You've gotten to walk the wayof the cross, right, rick?
Well, a lot of times, especiallyin our American comfort.
(15:31):
This is an American Reformationpodcast.
In our American comfort, we'vehad so many creaturely comforts
that then, when something withinus or around us gets
discombobulated, we say whereare you got?
And we ask the why?
Question, which are verynatural questions.
So as you journeyed throughthat, what new questions did you
start to ask out of the youknow where are you?
It feels like you've turnedyour back.
(15:52):
I mean, it's the stages ofgrief in many respects, right to
maybe even different questions.
Yeah, talk about that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, you know, I learned in more personally,
experiential way, that we oftenhave to go through Psalm 22 on
our way to Psalm 23.
You know, I mean, I get tostart at Psalm 23.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And for me.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I am one of those small percentage of people who
the pain associated withshingles is something that's
going to stay with me the restof my life, and so it's a matter
of learning how to, you know,turn that corner with God and
(16:49):
trust that he is with me.
You know you touched on it withPaul.
You know he talked about thatsuffering and identifying with
Christ through his suffering,and I think that's what I'm
thankful for.
I used to get to the crosspretty quickly, but I move there
(17:13):
really, really fast now and Iknow that's really what we all
need is to get there fast.
That's got to be our beginningand end point.
I mean, there are so manydifferent variations on certain
(17:34):
themes, that belief andpractices from one church
expression of the body of Christto another, and I like to say
listen, you have to start withthe cross, you have to start
with Christ and his suffering.
(17:55):
If you don't start theretogether and instead you talk
about these differences andvariations and I'm not saying
those things aren't important toreally pay attention to, right,
but if you start there, you maynever, ever get to Christ.
You know just, you know, thinkabout Christmas meals with those
(18:22):
extended family around thetable and you know you have
enough father right there,probably the job, I think.
Sorry, I start to move intosoul care very quickly in this
conversation and I think aboutwhat I've learned and what I
(18:45):
like to talk with others aboutbecause, as you know, tim, we
teach what we need.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
That's right.
That's right.
So facts that teach us rightnow.
How do you define soul care?
And I'd love to hear the basictenets of soul care.
And then you know it's alwayswe can't take people someplace,
we've not been right.
So how do you share your story,integrate your story and caring
for your own soul as you carefor the souls of others.
(19:15):
So, definition and basic tenetsof soul care, because in the
Lutheran tradition it's probablyany of our listeners are
Lutheran it's not something Ithink it's becoming more popular
to talk about in this day andage.
Soul care I'm hearing someLutheran theologians delving
into it more, but maybe you knowit's come out of a lot of the
contemplative, maybe Catholicstrands.
(19:37):
Soul care we're talking, therhythms of Sabbath and silence
and solitude and those types ofthings.
Caring for those are some ofthe rhythms that can help us
tend for, you know, daily andthen on a weekly or quarterly
type of basis, our soul and thenthe father, the spiritual
father and mothers.
You can come alongside us tohelp help peel the layers of the
onion so that we can get to thedeepest parts of us.
(19:58):
It's not something that happensvery naturally for many folks
here, so this is going to beawesome.
Definition basic tenets of soulcare.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So this is simple in a way, but I start with Jesus
asking what's the greatestcommandment Love the Lord, your
God, with all your heart, mind,soul, strength.
And the second one is, like it,love your neighbor as yourself.
So I have relationship with God, self and other.
(20:31):
But I must attend to and I know, you know, when I think about
my training as a pastor andmoving into my first call and
what that felt like I, you know,I thought I was focusing on God
(20:54):
pretty well and I had a heartfor others.
I do a really good job withmyself.
It's kind of like the curse ofthe plumber's home.
You know that's the last placeto get any plumbing done.
(21:16):
You know you're plumbing foreverybody else's house, but
you're on.
And it's kind of like that forpastors too, I'm afraid.
Right, I mean, if we're goingto be in the Word, it's going to
be to prepare a message or someteaching or whatever, but to
actually sit alone with God.
(21:39):
I mean soul care has to, has tostart there, and so God, self,
others.
I need to be paying attentionto word and prayer in my own
life just for me as it were, andmy family.
(22:03):
And then I need, I need somegood brothers in the Lord who
are willing to be honest andvulnerable together, pray with
and for one another, so the theneed for others, God, self and
others start start to take shapethere.
(22:23):
Well that's.
You know that some of thoseelements have taken me a long
time to learn.
So I, I don't I mean, I don'tknow how that's been for you,
but it sure has been a longjourney for me.
Oh my, it's a lifelong journey,it is, it is.
But to actually get to theplace where I'm starting to
(22:47):
institute different practices,you know, starting to actually
new behaviors to reinforce.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Tell me about them.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, well, you know it's, it's.
It is a matter of finding thoseguys who are really ready for
that kind of conversation.
And you know, unfortunately wecan't go to a circuit and just
automatically assume everybody'sat that place, because they're
(23:17):
not.
I you know I won't say whichcircuit this was, because I've
been in a number of them, a fewdifferent states, this kind of
thing but I had one where it wasall, it was all business and we
didn't share deeply in thestruggles and there wasn't even
(23:38):
prayer.
It just wasn't, there wasn'teven prayer.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So when?
When you're talking circuitcircuit pastors, gatherings, is
what you're talking about, ifpeople don't understand right?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
What a circuit is yes , right, so a gathering of
pastors in a in a respectivelocation.
And you see more something, aWinkledean circuit gathering of
pastors, and they vary this wasmy doctorate study, Rick.
What takes place in thosecircuit gatherings Very so, so,
so much.
And the training of the circuitvisitor is not standardized
(24:10):
across our church body and soit's kind of willy-nilly.
Hopefully you've got someonewho's attuned to the needs of
pastors and can allow them spaceto share the ups and downs of
what's going on, not just intheir ministry but maybe even
their, their family.
I would love for that to be thecase, right, but it's.
It doesn't sound like it was inthat one, in that one case for
you and that's all.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
They're varying degrees, you know, from one to
another and there's some, youknow, and I'm not saying these
are just really great people,because by and large, that's
that's what I find.
These are awesome people whoare servants of the Lord, who
are truly.
They're out there hitting itevery day, doing their best and
(24:50):
God's working through them, youknow, doing great things.
So that please don't hear mesaying anything other than that,
Because I've seen that, Iobserved that too.
But you know, it's that handful, Sometimes it can be small,
maybe one or two initially.
(25:11):
Who they get it, they, they,they can talk with you, pray
with you and for you, so that's,that's a huge deal.
I mean, we could break thisdown in different categories and
so forth, but I think it'sthose three dimensions which are
sort of my starting point whenI think about soul care.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, god's self and others.
So can you use that kind of asa framework If you were to say,
hey, let's get together, say,and there's a lot of mutuality
here, just a journey, brother,journey, sister.
They just care for oneanother's souls.
Tell me about what the Lord isspeaking to you, where and how
is he speaking to you.
Tell me what's going on in yourrelationship with others.
(25:57):
Is there a depth there?
Or is there, you know, maybe asense to isolate and then talk
about?
Talk about what you, what youthink, what's going on in your
own thought life, to maybechallenge some of those
presuppositions?
Is that what I hear you saying?
Maybe even a framework forquestions that a brother or
sister could ask of another?
Is that?
Is that pretty fair, rick?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
It is.
It is I and I and I would.
I think we can draw upon God'sself and others.
You know what?
What?
What's Greg?
Greg Finke of joining Jesus onhis mission in fame likes to say
you know how's God messing withyou?
You know, and that's prettydarn good, right there, greg has
(26:42):
a good.
He does a good job of puttingthe cookies on the lower shelf.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
He really he really does.
Yeah, the, the, the.
I'm going to go into somegender distinctives right here,
rick.
I think that I think that menagain, generally speaking here
and there's been a lot of socialscientists, sociologists that
have delved into this but whatdo men like to talk about In
(27:09):
general?
It's global problems, right, sothe things can be elected.
The GOP who's going to get thatnominee, or whatever, or it's,
or it's a.
You know, I'm a Denver Nuggetsfan.
Denver Nuggets love to talkabout that or what's going on in
the economy today and likewe're going to, you know, fix,
fix, those types of thingsthere's.
We love to stay high levelproblem solving, kind of
(27:30):
emotionally sometimes detached,and for good reason.
For good reason, we need tomake simple, you know, or
strategic changes as we go on inour life or in the life of our
congregation.
There's some general leadershipprinciples that are there, but
guess what, guess what?
Women are more attuned toRelationships and emotions.
(27:51):
There was a study done I don'tknow where I heard this where
they put women and men for 30minutes just in an empty room
and then said you're not goingto get anything.
There's no phone, there's nobook, there's no, nothing.
We just like you to sit hereand then we'll, then we'll come
back and we'll have aconversation.
So they came back to the men andguess what?
(28:11):
They asked them that, what wereyou, what were you thinking
about?
And the men go uh, not a, not awhole lot.
And the women came back.
Women, what were you thinkingabout?
I was thinking about arelationship and a conversation
that I had recently and how theconversation could have played
out more effectively.
It's God fearfully andwonderfully made it.
(28:32):
So I say all that to say Idon't think that the soul care
conversation.
I mean a lot of men who listento American information.
They probably already turnedthis thing off because it sounds
so, you know, soft, probablymaybe even effeminate.
You want me to sit down andtalk about what's going on in my
soul or in relationships, it'slike.
I don't do that.
(28:52):
I just don't do that, Rick.
So what would you say to thatbrother who has some hesitancy
to even explore the depths ofsoul care?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And Jesus stood at the tomb of his friend Lazarus
and he knew and this is reallyimportant.
Jesus knew what he was about todo.
He knows he's gonna raise thisguy from the dead, but he shows
up in that setting and he looksaround and he thinks about his
(29:23):
love for his friend and he weeps.
Just sit with that.
Just sit with that.
When's the last time you wept?
Well, if you can identify withJesus there or you want to, I
(29:52):
think we've got the great basisfor a conversation and we can
begin that journey together.
Now I'm gonna share with you afunny story.
When, for my first child, wewere going through Lamaze and
they split us up like yourillustration Women over here
(30:14):
with newsprint men over there,newsprint list all the emotions
that you're experiencingassociated with this pregnancy
and having a child.
So the guys get together and welook at each other, looked out
at the floor, don't always makeeye contact and somebody says
(30:37):
happy, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'mvery happy.
Put that up there.
Happy, someone else maybe?
They said, joy, okay, and I'msitting there because I've been
trained in this stuff.
Right now, I know the emotions.
I can take them off, but am Igonna do that right there and
(30:59):
then no, besides, wouldn't befeared it Take away from them
their opportunity to come upwith emotions.
So but I venture out a littlebit and I say fear, just silent.
I go ahead and write fear upthere Quiet, though Kind of
(31:23):
looking around I mean pregnantpause, and then someone says
what'd you think about that coldscheme?
Yeah, yeah, and we're off andrunning.
We're talking about football.
From that point forward untilour session is done, they bring
(31:44):
us back and the facilitator saysokay, let's see your lists.
And our pathetic little listhad about three emotions.
Then the women pulled theirsout.
They had a full column, thatwhole newsprint.
We're talking the big pagestuff, right, and they starting
on a second column.
(32:05):
And one young guy in my groupbless him for this.
He speaks up in the mostgenuine way and he says you know
, we didn't even know wherethere were that many emotions,
which was so honest.
I said that was that, of course.
That stayed with me for a longtime.
I couldn't tell you how tobreathe, but I'll tell you about
(32:27):
the emotions Study there.
You know, men are socialized andthis was part of an important
part of my doctor thesisactually was on the
socialization of men andespecially around the difficult,
vulnerable emotions you know,like loneliness, and and and and
(32:51):
and disappointment, and fear,and and.
What has happened because ofthe socialization process is
that all these, all thesemultiple, vulnerable emotions
get funneled into one emotion,namely anger.
(33:12):
And so when you find somebody,a man, who's angry, you're going
to want to back up and first ofall you might have to give him,
you might have to teach him, alanguage for emotions to be able
to access that stuff.
We don't even have a language,like the young man said, we
(33:34):
don't even know there were thatmany emotions.
So what happens is you eitherhit the anger or you stuff it.
And if you're a pastor or churchworker, you know anger is not
acceptable.
So boom Under it, go beneath,it goes right.
Well, anger's gonna be, it'sgonna show up somewhere, it's
(33:57):
gonna erupt at home.
You go home, kick the cat,whatever, or the.
The corollary is anger, turninward, results in depression,
sadness, or what we often liketo do is withdraw, just check
out, cut off emotionally right.
(34:21):
How do I know this stuff so well?
Because I have been there, man,so many times.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I can't tell you, man , oh man, yeah, yeah, oh man,
this has been so fun.
I Would love, I would love toexplore creating more space for
men to To just open up and andshare, and I pray that our
churches, especially with ourpastors and our leaders, are
(34:52):
have, and it doesn't take a lot.
Just do I have one or two guysin my world that can sit down
and just ask me how's it going?
Yeah, no, really, really how'sit going?
And Tell me about, tell mewhat's going on in your, in your
soul, and yeah, and we wouldhave.
I have a I don't knowcertification and coaching, but
(35:13):
kind of the the heavy stuff.
But then a lot of times whenyou nail down okay, what do we
really need to talk about here,rick?
It does have to do with mattersof the heart and I've really
enjoyed this conversation todaybecause I'm a, I'm a driven type
, a Firstborn, all of thatathlete still an athlete, rick.
By the way, I can still moveand throw and all those types of
(35:34):
things.
You know 42, I mean, I gottasay that for as long as I
possibly can, right.
It's like bless you so I need, Ineed yeah, thank you, I need
men like you, rick, who areslower, more contemplative, can
I'm sorry Listen.
No, no, no.
Your speech, your speechpattern is delightful, man, I
mean just slower.
(35:55):
We don't what we got to go do.
There's not much that we haveto go do.
Just be with one another.
And I've just enjoyed yourpresence today and I want to
have you back on and talk moreabout emotional systems and More
about your doctorate, becausethere's a lot to unpack as it
relates to the socialization ofmen in our culture today.
That Kind of downgrades men inmany respects and what are the
(36:18):
best parts of how?
You know, everybody has agifting gap, and men in general
and and even then individual,how do we start to articulate
man, I need the body of Christto help me in this, in this area
, and and I don't think we havethe, the vulnerable conversation
Very often, very naturally, thechurch has not been set up.
It's it's stuff, it, as yousaid, it's hide, it's run its
(36:40):
posture.
You know, at base motion tobase emotions, really, pride and
fear, anger, often connected toprofound, profound fear of
being exposed right.
Women will close with this.
Women, you know, a fear notbeing enough in comparison to
other other women.
Men generally fear and love toget your thoughts, Maybe on this
(37:02):
as we close down.
Men generally fear being seen alot about being seen our
exterior as weak or inadequateIn any respects, if you had the
experiences along those lines.
Differences between men andwomen, rick.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Oh, you're right that we're talking about a whole new
session, right?
I mean, I forget thegentleman's name, but you've
probably seen this on YouTubewhen he talks about the, the
women's brain and a man's brain.
And then the man's brain hasall these little drawers and you
take one drawer out at a time.
(37:37):
Don't take two out, take one.
And we even have a drawercalled our nothing box and we'll
go every time if given thechance, right?
But the women's brain and hesaid he shows that it's
absolutely interconnected witheverything.
You know, you touch one, youpull on one.
Be careful what you're pullingon, man, because you pull on one
(38:00):
, you're gonna get a lot ofother strings.
That's just a great place tostart right there.
You have to know some basicthings like that In our culture,
yeah, gonna miss each other,and and we?
Speaker 2 (38:18):
we don't talk about the differences, how we're
fearfully and wonderfully mademale and female, and how our
brains are radically, radicallydifferent.
And different is beautiful andand good.
So this has been so much fun,rick.
Thank you for your generosityof time and your depth and your
wisdom.
That people want to connectwith you, rick.
How can they do so?
Speaker 3 (38:37):
I Very happy to to visit with people in a variety
of ways, but a good startingpoint is my, my email, and it's
MT317, as in Matthew 317, nice,and I've had that for a long
time.
Now you're gonna go look in,yeah, at SBC global net.
(39:07):
I.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Think it was the.
Is it the baptism and thetemptation of Jesus in?
Speaker 3 (39:13):
baptism, yeah.
And the voice of the Father inheaven said beloved son you my.
Loving son.
My first book was called I loveyou, son what every boy and man
needs to hear and it was basedaround that theme.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
The identity marker, the declaration of Jesus needed
his father to tell him how muchhe was loved.
How much more so do we?
How much more so do we?
Yeah, so good.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast, sharing its
carrying.
Please like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in
podcasts and we promise to haveleaders, lovers of the Lord
(39:56):
Jesus and those who have beenloved by him, like Rick, dr Rick
Meyer, back with us soon, soon,soon.
It will be wonderful.
We'll see you next week onAmerican Reformation.
Thanks so much, rick.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I am in rainy Arizonaright now.
Hurricane Hillary, her tail,has whippened through us and I
will tell you this man rain is agift from God, especially when
you spent the summer months in115 in Phoenix, arizona.
The rain of the Holy Spirit isabout to descend upon us today
(00:57):
as I get to talk with, get toknow more deeply, rick Meyer.
Rick has an amazing story ofpastoring as well as caring for
leaders and just loving thosethat are walking through the ups
and downs of life, which areinevitable.
Today, the topic is soul care,which, rick?
(01:18):
I don't think we can talk aboutthis topic too much.
I guess I would have delvedinto this, and so this is going
to be fun today.
But opening question how areyou praying for Reformation in
the American Christian Church,rick?
Rick Meyer.
Thanks for hanging out, rick.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Meyer Absolutely.
It's good to be here, man, andI'm grateful for your sake that
you got that rain, rick.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Meyer oh yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Rick Meyer, it's a beautiful thing at the
temperatures you guys have beenhaving.
Rick Meyer, yeah, I'm down.
Rick Meyer, the AmericanReformation Well, the word that
comes to my mind and I've beenactually thinking about this
quite a bit lately, because mylatest book that I'm in the
(01:59):
middle of writing really triesto pay attention to this subject
, and the word is discipleship.
And so you know this, I knowyou've thought a lot about it,
written about it.
Whenever I talk with a youngperson, say 18 to 25, and
(02:21):
they're in the church andthey're just really solidly
there, you know, and they'regrowing in their faith, they're
walk with the Lord, I like toask the question why did you
stay?
Why are you still in the church?
And invariably the answer comesback something like this
(02:49):
Someone outside of that youngperson's family invested in them
in the church.
They just poured into them.
They were the person who thatyoung kid knew whenever they
went to church, that this man,this woman, they were going to
ask about me, they were going todo a serious check in and
(03:12):
really love on them.
That was sort of like number oneis the thing I hear.
Second thing is they feltneeded.
They were involved at a youngage and to ministry.
And then the third thing goodfoundational teaching.
(03:32):
You know they can look back andsay you know, I really got the
basics.
You know those three.
If I mean, I just am getting soused to hearing those three
that where I my conclusion isthat's what all of us need at
(03:54):
every age.
If that was right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, it'd be totally changed, man.
I hear if a young person Iwould say any person just coming
into the church.
These are three core needs Willit be known, will I be needed
and will I grow in my knowledgeand fear the Lord?
There's some alliteration theretoo.
That's the height ofhospitality, I think.
(04:23):
I think a lot of times youthink hospitality at a church,
oh, that's like make sure wegive a handshake and people need
to be seen and cared for.
But are we setting upenvironments in the local church
where people can be, andespecially starting with our
younger folks?
I got a shout out to my friend,doug, who's pouring into my son
Malachi right now, and Doug cameto my son's football game,
(04:46):
drove out 45 minutes to come tohis football game on Friday
night and just his presencethere, that means the world.
And he's kind of like he's notmarried right now.
He's had a couple kids and justwants to pour and they're grown
, you know, and he just wants topour into my son and that means
so so much and we need moredugs, right, rick?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We do and Mary's, and they can be a lot older than
that and they're going to be,they're going to just have a
huge impact.
I mean, their own kids, theirown children and grandchildren
might be struggling and may notbe connected to faith and church
(05:28):
life, you know, but they'refinding a way to pour into
somebody who's right there andthat's just like you said.
I love the hospitality imagerythere.
Yeah, that's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I think there's this balance for many church
leaders between organicrelationships taking place and
then how do?
What is the structure or theenvironment that needs to be
created for those environmentsto take place more naturally?
So in our context, small groupshave been a big deal for us and
a lot of life on life, you know, down through the generations.
(06:03):
Having moms and dads pouring toother kids, you know that's
really had a profound impact.
What we've been wrestling withrecently is service.
So what happens if an olderadult went and hung out with my
son around we'll say Doug andMalachi, they're going to serve
together at La Mesa and which isa meal and worship inclusive of
(06:25):
the working, poor and homeless,like doing that together and
then going out and grabbing, youknow, a cup of coffee or
something like that afterserving.
I mean the bonds that formthrough service and deepening
relationships are so, so huge.
So I tend to lean a little bitmore toward organic.
But there has to be some sortof intentionality about
leadership to say these are theenvironments where relationships
(06:47):
take place, especially crossgenerationally.
Anything more to add there,rick?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Well, I'm just thinking about you know you as a
pastor, and I've been inministry for over 30 years and I
there's just something thatanother person can do for my
child that I cannot do.
There's a lot that I can do,but I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm
(07:17):
part of that system and theyneed someone from outside of
that family system to recognizeand say you know, you're a value
, like you were saying you're,you're a value, enough value
that I care about you and I wantto, I want to hang with you, I
want to, you know, be one ofthose people in your life that
(07:38):
you can kind of count on.
And I'm going to look, and youknow the crush, Mentoring,
reverse mentoring, that mutualmentoring, whatever language you
want to use there.
You know it has to go the otherway.
You know it's not just I'm goingto teach you a few things, but,
(08:00):
man, I am interested in yourperspective and what you're
learning, because I'm going tolearn from you, I'm going to
grow from that.
And it's really easy for me asa late baby boomer, because I
desperately need help in so manyareas, that it's easy for me to
say, man, I just let's spend alittle time together because
(08:21):
you're going to need yourinsight here, you know,
especially when it comes totechnology, but relationally too
.
You know, these are differentgenerations.
They're growing up seeing andhearing things we didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, I'm coaching my son's football team right now.
So hanging out with 15 to 18year olds, you know, five, five,
six days a week, developingrelationships, it's super fun
and like the language that theyuse.
Rick, I don't, I don't know,I'm 42 right now and the kids
are coming out of the lockerroom and say, hey coach, hey
coach, what, what you thinkabout my drip?
(08:58):
I'm like, come again Now, whatdo you think?
What do you think about my drip?
And in it, like how good theylooked with their extra
accessories on their arms andtheir that's, that's drip, rick.
I probably just taught yousomething there.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You just taught me something.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah so.
I mean lots of learning newlanguage.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I mean, I, you know my, I think of coffee, my coffee
Drinks, right, you know coffee,yeah, a drippy, a drippy roof,
no, and it's what they're.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It's what they're wearing.
I can go into a whole bunch ofother, but there's, there needs
to be a mutuality in learning.
I'd love to talk with you.
What captured me about yourstory is your, your struggle
with shingles.
A lot of times people haveshingles and the Lord, you know.
He whispers to us in ourpleasures, but he shouts to us
in our struggles, right, and sowhat has God taught you through
(09:48):
pain and struggle with really achronic what it sounds like more
of a chronic battle withshingles and I know that's, I've
known brothers and sisters.
It's so, so painful.
Tell us about that story, whatthe Lord has revealed to you.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, and the blind eyes heard about it too.
You know, visited with peopleand man, you know, till you're
there.
You know you have a clue, butextreme pain and chronic pain is
the best I can say.
So I would love to tell youthat I started out right away
(10:23):
saying, all right, god, teach meand help me grow.
And on some level that wasthere, but it was almost more
like you know I was, I wasflying by instruments on that
one I knew that was the rightthing, the right posture, right,
but I didn't start there.
I mean this, this hit inJanuary of 17.
(10:48):
And it and Tim, it took me twoto three years to really start
moving in that direction.
For the first couple of years,you know, I didn't care if I
continued living or not.
I mean, thankfully we have Joband and Elijah and Jonah and you
(11:15):
know, and a number of thePsalms to draw upon to see that
there's an invitation for us togive expression to the hardest,
most vulnerable emotions.
But I, you know, I, I, I, I, I,I really felt as though God had
.
I thought God was there, but Ifelt as though he had turned his
(11:41):
face of blessing away from meand it's just genuinely the way
it feels.
I've talked with other peoplegoing through this now and they
gone through times too wherethey just at night, pray God,
please take me home to be withyou.
(12:01):
I just want to be with you.
And God says learn to pray yourown Psalm of lament.
I'm sorry, learn to pray yourown Psalm of lament.
So so I mean it's.
(12:22):
You know, my God, where are you?
Have you?
Have you abandoned me forever?
I mean this.
This is kind of stuff we findin those individual Psalms of
lament, and these are people offaith crying out.
I can't tell you how many timesI've tried to encourage people
going through hardship andpainful situations that you know
(12:45):
you might not feel it on anemotional level, but God wants
you to say this.
Now he's turned into me andsaying Rick, I want this full on
, and I had hard, hardconversations with God.
I I told God some things thatyou know looking around and I'm
(13:06):
really not wanting anyone elseto hear what I'm saying, but one
of the things that got becamereinforced for me was what did
Jesus choose to spare To speakfrom the cross?
I gotta, I gotta get to thecross right, and you know, psalm
23 is probably the best knownPsalm of any right.
(13:29):
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not, I shall not be inwant.
It's just sings of comfort andthe joy of the Lord.
But our Lord didn't choosePsalm 23.
Yes, sir, psalm 22.
My God, my God, why have youforsaken me?
And in that moment I know Ihave a God who understands me
(13:51):
better than I know myself,because he understands the
question why I'm starting to getpreachy.
I love it, rick.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Sorry about that it's just life, man.
It's just life.
Eventually we're all going tobe there and I think the the
blessing of suffering is is justradical dependence upon God.
Right, yeah.
And Romans five is so searedinto my memory because I walk
alongside secondhand trauma andand then I've experienced my own
(14:24):
struggles and my family andthings, and we all, we all do.
It's inevitable, but Paul's,paul's journey of faith to
rejoice and suffering, knowingthat here's the trajectory of
life.
It's perseverance, scott, I'mgoing to trust in you.
I'm going to develop.
There's a lot that's beingwritten right now about grit.
I'm not going to give up.
But even though I feel like itand I may even tell you that I
(14:45):
feel like it, perseverance andthat character, that radical
dependence upon you, througheverything you must be my rock
and my shield, that very presenthelp and trouble, even though
it feels like you've forsaken me, turned your back on me.
I know you in essence turnedyour back on the sun and the sun
will never turn his back on me.
He loves me more and he sitswith me.
He knows what it is to sufferand even cry and weep over my
(15:09):
suffering, and then that movesus to the hope of the
resurrection on the last daywhen suffering, trial, lost
tears, death itself will foreverbe vanquished.
So you got me preaching to here.
That's the ultimate goal is theway of.
You've gotten to walk the wayof the cross, right, rick?
Well, a lot of times, especiallyin our American comfort.
(15:31):
This is an American Reformationpodcast.
In our American comfort, we'vehad so many creaturely comforts
that then, when something withinus or around us gets
discombobulated, we say whereare you got?
And we ask the why?
Question, which are verynatural questions.
So as you journeyed throughthat, what new questions did you
start to ask out of the youknow where are you?
It feels like you've turnedyour back.
(15:52):
I mean, it's the stages ofgrief in many respects, right to
maybe even different questions.
Yeah, talk about that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, you know, I learned in more personally,
experiential way, that we oftenhave to go through Psalm 22 on
our way to Psalm 23.
You know, I mean, I get tostart at Psalm 23.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
And for me.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I am one of those small percentage of people who
the pain associated withshingles is something that's
going to stay with me the restof my life, and so it's a matter
of learning how to, you know,turn that corner with God and
(16:49):
trust that he is with me.
You know you touched on it withPaul.
You know he talked about thatsuffering and identifying with
Christ through his suffering,and I think that's what I'm
thankful for.
I used to get to the crosspretty quickly, but I move there
(17:13):
really, really fast now and Iknow that's really what we all
need is to get there fast.
That's got to be our beginningand end point.
I mean, there are so manydifferent variations on certain
(17:34):
themes, that belief andpractices from one church
expression of the body of Christto another, and I like to say
listen, you have to start withthe cross, you have to start
with Christ and his suffering.
(17:55):
If you don't start theretogether and instead you talk
about these differences andvariations and I'm not saying
those things aren't important toreally pay attention to, right,
but if you start there, you maynever, ever get to Christ.
You know just, you know, thinkabout Christmas meals with those
(18:22):
extended family around thetable and you know you have
enough father right there,probably the job, I think.
Sorry, I start to move intosoul care very quickly in this
conversation and I think aboutwhat I've learned and what I
(18:45):
like to talk with others aboutbecause, as you know, tim, we
teach what we need.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
That's right.
That's right.
So facts that teach us rightnow.
How do you define soul care?
And I'd love to hear the basictenets of soul care.
And then you know it's alwayswe can't take people someplace,
we've not been right.
So how do you share your story,integrate your story and caring
for your own soul as you carefor the souls of others.
(19:15):
So, definition and basic tenetsof soul care, because in the
Lutheran tradition it's probablyany of our listeners are
Lutheran it's not something Ithink it's becoming more popular
to talk about in this day andage.
Soul care I'm hearing someLutheran theologians delving
into it more, but maybe you knowit's come out of a lot of the
contemplative, maybe Catholicstrands.
(19:37):
Soul care we're talking, therhythms of Sabbath and silence
and solitude and those types ofthings.
Caring for those are some ofthe rhythms that can help us
tend for, you know, daily andthen on a weekly or quarterly
type of basis, our soul and thenthe father, the spiritual
father and mothers.
You can come alongside us tohelp help peel the layers of the
onion so that we can get to thedeepest parts of us.
(19:58):
It's not something that happensvery naturally for many folks
here, so this is going to beawesome.
Definition basic tenets of soulcare.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So this is simple in a way, but I start with Jesus
asking what's the greatestcommandment Love the Lord, your
God, with all your heart, mind,soul, strength.
And the second one is, like it,love your neighbor as yourself.
So I have relationship with God, self and other.
(20:31):
But I must attend to and I know, you know, when I think about
my training as a pastor andmoving into my first call and
what that felt like I, you know,I thought I was focusing on God
(20:54):
pretty well and I had a heartfor others.
I do a really good job withmyself.
It's kind of like the curse ofthe plumber's home.
You know that's the last placeto get any plumbing done.
(21:16):
You know you're plumbing foreverybody else's house, but
you're on.
And it's kind of like that forpastors too, I'm afraid.
Right, I mean, if we're goingto be in the Word, it's going to
be to prepare a message or someteaching or whatever, but to
actually sit alone with God.
(21:39):
I mean soul care has to, has tostart there, and so God, self,
others.
I need to be paying attentionto word and prayer in my own
life just for me as it were, andmy family.
(22:03):
And then I need, I need somegood brothers in the Lord who
are willing to be honest andvulnerable together, pray with
and for one another, so the theneed for others, God, self and
others start start to take shapethere.
(22:23):
Well that's.
You know that some of thoseelements have taken me a long
time to learn.
So I, I don't I mean, I don'tknow how that's been for you,
but it sure has been a longjourney for me.
Oh my, it's a lifelong journey,it is, it is.
But to actually get to theplace where I'm starting to
(22:47):
institute different practices,you know, starting to actually
new behaviors to reinforce.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Tell me about them.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, well, you know it's, it's.
It is a matter of finding thoseguys who are really ready for
that kind of conversation.
And you know, unfortunately wecan't go to a circuit and just
automatically assume everybody'sat that place, because they're
(23:17):
not.
I you know I won't say whichcircuit this was, because I've
been in a number of them, a fewdifferent states, this kind of
thing but I had one where it wasall, it was all business and we
didn't share deeply in thestruggles and there wasn't even
(23:38):
prayer.
It just wasn't, there wasn'teven prayer.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So when?
When you're talking circuitcircuit pastors, gatherings, is
what you're talking about, ifpeople don't understand right?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
What a circuit is yes , right, so a gathering of
pastors in a in a respectivelocation.
And you see more something, aWinkledean circuit gathering of
pastors, and they vary this wasmy doctorate study, Rick.
What takes place in thosecircuit gatherings Very so, so,
so much.
And the training of the circuitvisitor is not standardized
(24:10):
across our church body and soit's kind of willy-nilly.
Hopefully you've got someonewho's attuned to the needs of
pastors and can allow them spaceto share the ups and downs of
what's going on, not just intheir ministry but maybe even
their, their family.
I would love for that to be thecase, right, but it's.
It doesn't sound like it was inthat one, in that one case for
you and that's all.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
They're varying degrees, you know, from one to
another and there's some, youknow, and I'm not saying these
are just really great people,because by and large, that's
that's what I find.
These are awesome people whoare servants of the Lord, who
are truly.
They're out there hitting itevery day, doing their best and
(24:50):
God's working through them, youknow, doing great things.
So that please don't hear mesaying anything other than that,
Because I've seen that, Iobserved that too.
But you know, it's that handful, Sometimes it can be small,
maybe one or two initially.
(25:11):
Who they get it, they, they,they can talk with you, pray
with you and for you, so that's,that's a huge deal.
I mean, we could break thisdown in different categories and
so forth, but I think it'sthose three dimensions which are
sort of my starting point whenI think about soul care.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, god's self and others.
So can you use that kind of asa framework If you were to say,
hey, let's get together, say,and there's a lot of mutuality
here, just a journey, brother,journey, sister.
They just care for oneanother's souls.
Tell me about what the Lord isspeaking to you, where and how
is he speaking to you.
Tell me what's going on in yourrelationship with others.
(25:57):
Is there a depth there?
Or is there, you know, maybe asense to isolate and then talk
about?
Talk about what you, what youthink, what's going on in your
own thought life, to maybechallenge some of those
presuppositions?
Is that what I hear you saying?
Maybe even a framework forquestions that a brother or
sister could ask of another?
Is that?
Is that pretty fair, rick?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
It is.
It is I and I and I would.
I think we can draw upon God'sself and others.
You know what?
What?
What's Greg?
Greg Finke of joining Jesus onhis mission in fame likes to say
you know how's God messing withyou?
You know, and that's prettydarn good, right there, greg has
(26:42):
a good.
He does a good job of puttingthe cookies on the lower shelf.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
He really he really does.
Yeah, the, the, the.
I'm going to go into somegender distinctives right here,
rick.
I think that I think that menagain, generally speaking here
and there's been a lot of socialscientists, sociologists that
have delved into this but whatdo men like to talk about In
(27:09):
general?
It's global problems, right, sothe things can be elected.
The GOP who's going to get thatnominee, or whatever, or it's,
or it's a.
You know, I'm a Denver Nuggetsfan.
Denver Nuggets love to talkabout that or what's going on in
the economy today and likewe're going to, you know, fix,
fix, those types of thingsthere's.
We love to stay high levelproblem solving, kind of
(27:30):
emotionally sometimes detached,and for good reason.
For good reason, we need tomake simple, you know, or
strategic changes as we go on inour life or in the life of our
congregation.
There's some general leadershipprinciples that are there, but
guess what, guess what?
Women are more attuned toRelationships and emotions.
(27:51):
There was a study done I don'tknow where I heard this where
they put women and men for 30minutes just in an empty room
and then said you're not goingto get anything.
There's no phone, there's nobook, there's no, nothing.
We just like you to sit hereand then we'll, then we'll come
back and we'll have aconversation.
So they came back to the men andguess what?
(28:11):
They asked them that, what wereyou, what were you thinking
about?
And the men go uh, not a, not awhole lot.
And the women came back.
Women, what were you thinkingabout?
I was thinking about arelationship and a conversation
that I had recently and how theconversation could have played
out more effectively.
It's God fearfully andwonderfully made it.
(28:32):
So I say all that to say Idon't think that the soul care
conversation.
I mean a lot of men who listento American information.
They probably already turnedthis thing off because it sounds
so, you know, soft, probablymaybe even effeminate.
You want me to sit down andtalk about what's going on in my
soul or in relationships, it'slike.
I don't do that.
(28:52):
I just don't do that, Rick.
So what would you say to thatbrother who has some hesitancy
to even explore the depths ofsoul care?
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And Jesus stood at the tomb of his friend Lazarus
and he knew and this is reallyimportant.
Jesus knew what he was about todo.
He knows he's gonna raise thisguy from the dead, but he shows
up in that setting and he looksaround and he thinks about his
(29:23):
love for his friend and he weeps.
Just sit with that.
Just sit with that.
When's the last time you wept?
Well, if you can identify withJesus there or you want to, I
(29:52):
think we've got the great basisfor a conversation and we can
begin that journey together.
Now I'm gonna share with you afunny story.
When, for my first child, wewere going through Lamaze and
they split us up like yourillustration Women over here
(30:14):
with newsprint men over there,newsprint list all the emotions
that you're experiencingassociated with this pregnancy
and having a child.
So the guys get together and welook at each other, looked out
at the floor, don't always makeeye contact and somebody says
(30:37):
happy, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'mvery happy.
Put that up there.
Happy, someone else maybe?
They said, joy, okay, and I'msitting there because I've been
trained in this stuff.
Right now, I know the emotions.
I can take them off, but am Igonna do that right there and
(30:59):
then no, besides, wouldn't befeared it Take away from them
their opportunity to come upwith emotions.
So but I venture out a littlebit and I say fear, just silent.
I go ahead and write fear upthere Quiet, though Kind of
(31:23):
looking around I mean pregnantpause, and then someone says
what'd you think about that coldscheme?
Yeah, yeah, and we're off andrunning.
We're talking about football.
From that point forward untilour session is done, they bring
(31:44):
us back and the facilitator saysokay, let's see your lists.
And our pathetic little listhad about three emotions.
Then the women pulled theirsout.
They had a full column, thatwhole newsprint.
We're talking the big pagestuff, right, and they starting
on a second column.
(32:05):
And one young guy in my groupbless him for this.
He speaks up in the mostgenuine way and he says you know
, we didn't even know wherethere were that many emotions,
which was so honest.
I said that was that, of course.
That stayed with me for a longtime.
I couldn't tell you how tobreathe, but I'll tell you about
(32:27):
the emotions Study there.
You know, men are socialized andthis was part of an important
part of my doctor thesisactually was on the
socialization of men andespecially around the difficult,
vulnerable emotions you know,like loneliness, and and and and
(32:51):
and disappointment, and fear,and and.
What has happened because ofthe socialization process is
that all these, all thesemultiple, vulnerable emotions
get funneled into one emotion,namely anger.
(33:12):
And so when you find somebody,a man, who's angry, you're going
to want to back up and first ofall you might have to give him,
you might have to teach him, alanguage for emotions to be able
to access that stuff.
We don't even have a language,like the young man said, we
(33:34):
don't even know there were thatmany emotions.
So what happens is you eitherhit the anger or you stuff it.
And if you're a pastor or churchworker, you know anger is not
acceptable.
So boom Under it, go beneath,it goes right.
Well, anger's gonna be, it'sgonna show up somewhere, it's
(33:57):
gonna erupt at home.
You go home, kick the cat,whatever, or the.
The corollary is anger, turninward, results in depression,
sadness, or what we often liketo do is withdraw, just check
out, cut off emotionally right.
(34:21):
How do I know this stuff so well?
Because I have been there, man,so many times.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I can't tell you, man , oh man, yeah, yeah, oh man,
this has been so fun.
I Would love, I would love toexplore creating more space for
men to To just open up and andshare, and I pray that our
churches, especially with ourpastors and our leaders, are
(34:52):
have, and it doesn't take a lot.
Just do I have one or two guysin my world that can sit down
and just ask me how's it going?
Yeah, no, really, really how'sit going?
And Tell me about, tell mewhat's going on in your, in your
soul, and yeah, and we wouldhave.
I have a I don't knowcertification and coaching, but
(35:13):
kind of the the heavy stuff.
But then a lot of times whenyou nail down okay, what do we
really need to talk about here,rick?
It does have to do with mattersof the heart and I've really
enjoyed this conversation todaybecause I'm a, I'm a driven type
, a Firstborn, all of thatathlete still an athlete, rick.
By the way, I can still moveand throw and all those types of
(35:34):
things.
You know 42, I mean, I gottasay that for as long as I
possibly can, right.
It's like bless you so I need, Ineed yeah, thank you, I need
men like you, rick, who areslower, more contemplative, can
I'm sorry Listen.
No, no, no.
Your speech, your speechpattern is delightful, man, I
mean just slower.
(35:55):
We don't what we got to go do.
There's not much that we haveto go do.
Just be with one another.
And I've just enjoyed yourpresence today and I want to
have you back on and talk moreabout emotional systems and More
about your doctorate, becausethere's a lot to unpack as it
relates to the socialization ofmen in our culture today.
That Kind of downgrades men inmany respects and what are the
(36:18):
best parts of how?
You know, everybody has agifting gap, and men in general
and and even then individual,how do we start to articulate
man, I need the body of Christto help me in this, in this area
, and and I don't think we havethe, the vulnerable conversation
Very often, very naturally, thechurch has not been set up.
It's it's stuff, it, as yousaid, it's hide, it's run its
(36:40):
posture.
You know, at base motion tobase emotions, really, pride and
fear, anger, often connected toprofound, profound fear of
being exposed right.
Women will close with this.
Women, you know, a fear notbeing enough in comparison to
other other women.
Men generally fear and love toget your thoughts, Maybe on this
(37:02):
as we close down.
Men generally fear being seen alot about being seen our
exterior as weak or inadequateIn any respects, if you had the
experiences along those lines.
Differences between men andwomen, rick.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Oh, you're right that we're talking about a whole new
session, right?
I mean, I forget thegentleman's name, but you've
probably seen this on YouTubewhen he talks about the, the
women's brain and a man's brain.
And then the man's brain hasall these little drawers and you
take one drawer out at a time.
(37:37):
Don't take two out, take one.
And we even have a drawercalled our nothing box and we'll
go every time if given thechance, right?
But the women's brain and hesaid he shows that it's
absolutely interconnected witheverything.
You know, you touch one, youpull on one.
Be careful what you're pullingon, man, because you pull on one
(38:00):
, you're gonna get a lot ofother strings.
That's just a great place tostart right there.
You have to know some basicthings like that In our culture,
yeah, gonna miss each other,and and we?
Speaker 2 (38:18):
we don't talk about the differences, how we're
fearfully and wonderfully mademale and female, and how our
brains are radically, radicallydifferent.
And different is beautiful andand good.
So this has been so much fun,rick.
Thank you for your generosityof time and your depth and your
wisdom.
That people want to connectwith you, rick.
How can they do so?
Speaker 3 (38:37):
I Very happy to to visit with people in a variety
of ways, but a good startingpoint is my, my email, and it's
MT317, as in Matthew 317, nice,and I've had that for a long
time.
Now you're gonna go look in,yeah, at SBC global net.
(39:07):
I.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Think it was the.
Is it the baptism and thetemptation of Jesus in?
Speaker 3 (39:13):
baptism, yeah.
And the voice of the Father inheaven said beloved son you my.
Loving son.
My first book was called I loveyou, son what every boy and man
needs to hear and it was basedaround that theme.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
The identity marker, the declaration of Jesus needed
his father to tell him how muchhe was loved.
How much more so do we?
How much more so do we?
Yeah, so good.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast, sharing its
carrying.
Please like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in
podcasts and we promise to haveleaders, lovers of the Lord
(39:56):
Jesus and those who have beenloved by him, like Rick, dr Rick
Meyer, back with us soon, soon,soon.
It will be wonderful.
We'll see you next week onAmerican Reformation.
Thanks so much, rick.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!