July 30, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when an outsider questions everything about how the towing industry has "always done things"? You get revolutionary ideas like the Price Per Pound recovery pricing system. Norman "Stormin'" Horton joins the podcast to share how he transformed recovery pricing over 30 years ago with a concept that remains relevant—and controversial—today.
Norman walks us through his journey from garage mechanic to successful towing business owner who built and eventually sold a company with 16 trucks and 25 employees. His fresh perspective challenged industry norms and led to breakthrough insights about what towers are really selling: not tow trucks or equipment, but peace of mind.
The heart of our conversation explores the Price Per Pound system—how it works, why it was developed, and common misconceptions. Norman explains how the system functions like a mechanic's flat-rate book, with base rates determined by vehicle weight plus add-ons for complexity factors. This approach gives customers pricing certainty while ensuring towers are fairly compensated for their expertise, regardless of how efficiently they complete recoveries.
Beyond pricing, Norman shares profound wisdom about building a true business rather than creating a job you can never escape. "If you built something you can't leave, you built nothing," he tells us—a powerful reminder for any towing entrepreneur caught in the 24/7 demands of the industry. His emphasis on proper delegation, consistent branding, and customer-focused operations provides a masterclass in towing business management.
Now raising German Shepherds (many serving veterans with PTSD) and advocating for stronger move-over laws, Norman continues to make a difference. His John Hubbard Move Over Act in Alabama demonstrates his ongoing commitment to an industry where professionals deserve respect and protection. Listen for insights that might forever change how you view your towing business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
you're on the train to success with april and wes
wilburn.
I'm dj harrington, the co-host,better known as the toe doctor.
We're all on our way to thetown of proper towing and
recovery, along with ourproducer, chuck camp, in the
studio.
Don't go to the town of woulda,coulda, shoulda.
(00:25):
You coulda had done this.
You should have done that.
Listen every week tothought-provoking wisdom from
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or the number one podcast, ormaybe Amazon or wherever you get
(00:50):
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week long.
If you are a state associationand want your announcements or
upcoming state association newsannouncements or upcoming state
association news or maybe aco-show that's coming up, let us
(01:10):
know.
Our podcast studio phone numberis 706-409-5603.
I'm proud to be part of a greatteam at the american dorm
recovery institute.
Let's make 2025 our best yearever.
I will turn it to april loomiswell, dj.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you, as always, I appreciate your kind words
and your introduction.
As we talked about in the firstsegment, we got a great
returning guest.
Today we have the man thatinvented the price per pound.
Not only invented it, he usedit for years in his towing
business and there's a lot offacts and fictions about price
per pound.
There seems to be a fair amountof conversation going on about
it right now around the country.
I know here in North Carolinathe state association president
(01:51):
who we had on last week talkedto me about how the legislators
had a lot of questions about itand he was trying to put
together some information on it.
I guess he hasn't been in touchwith you yet, but I'm sure he
will.
He's a busy guy.
So we have Stormin Norman outof Alabama.
Stormin, for the folks thatdon't know, you give us an
introduction and a briefbackground about your
(02:12):
involvement in towing and whatyou're doing today, if you don't
mind.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Sure, I started out in the garage business in 81, I
think it was, and had to workfor a bus company and was always
fascinated with the tow trucks,even more so when one of them
decided to pass me on theinterstate that I was towing as
a result of some crappy weldingjobs on a homemade hitch.
(02:39):
I thought you know, I'd love toget in the record business, but
there has to be a better way.
And so in 89, 80, 89, somethinglike that, somewhere in there, I
bought my first tow truck,which is an old 600 on a white,
with a 238 Detroit Holes in thefloor, and when I showed it to
my banker he said do not let mesee this truck until it's
painted and you have it fixed,otherwise I will lose my job.
(03:01):
Like so many in the towingbusiness, we started down a lick
and a promise and a prayer andbuilt the company to where, I
think in 98, 99, something likethat, we had 16 tow trucks, 25
employees, and then sold thebusiness.
But along the way we went fromthe old mechanicals to
(03:24):
hydraulics and underlifts andair cushions and so on and so
forth and realized thatsomething was not right.
We were going to school, wewere going to classes, we were
trying to learn from the best ofthe best on how to do the job
better, to do the job quicker,so we could charge by the hour,
(03:45):
so we could get paid less.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And not coming from the towing industry, I looked at
things a little bit differentlybecause I've never been in all
my life.
So the question I had time andagain was why?
Why are we doing this?
And I had some great mentors,like Gary Coe, that took some
time to share pricing matricesand some different concepts that
(04:10):
you know that made sense.
It was something that madesense, let's go with it.
But if we're doing it justbecause Grandpa did it, why?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, Gary Coe was excellent at putting numbers to
paper and thinking about thingsfrom a real logical point of
view.
He really was excellent atputting numbers to paper and
thinking about things from areal logical point of view.
He really was excellent at that.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
He was an amazing guy .
He was a businessman.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And one of the things that I've noticed in the
business and we're doing GermanShepherds now, same thing.
I mean there are a lot ofpeople that are doing something
but they're not in business.
It's more of a catch can orwhatever.
And Gary had started withnothing, basically, and ended up
with I don't know what 200 towtrucks, four employees, 11 milk
(04:54):
cases, something like that.
This is the guy I want to learnfrom.
And I called him up one day andsaid Gary, can I come out and
shadow you for a couple days?
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I did and I walked away with two concepts One, he
hired people that were smarterthan him, and two, he gave them
the authority and the ability,with accountability, to get the
job done.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's important and that was the key.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That was the key, because so many towers that were
so afraid to take a vacation,so afraid to turn their business
over to their employees andtrust them with that and take a
break.
You know, because they weren'table or willing to learn to
delegate to their employees, andso the same concept happened
(05:41):
with the pricing part.
Well, you know, we've alwaysdone it this way.
Hang on Before we jump.
Happened with the pricing part.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Well, we've always done it this way.
Hang on.
Before we jump on to thepricing, can I add a comment?
To your vacation?
And taking a minute away, Ilost a very good.
I thought he was a friend, buthe was definitely a customer.
He got offended one timebecause I said to him and this
was when he'd been in for 25years, he had a big operation, a
couple locations, and he wasafraid to take a minute away
(06:06):
from there not to be there ifthe big wreck came in.
And I said to him, if you builtsomething, you can't leave.
You built nothing and he tookit the wrong way.
He thought I was picking on himpersonally and I wasn't.
But you know, if you're a slaveto this thing, you built
nothing.
And I'm sorry to interrupt you,but I just wanted to touch on
that.
It's also very timely, Sincewe're at summertime it's very
(06:29):
timely Norman Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
It really is.
And if I can use a, because inthe toy business it's, you know,
so often we say, okay, thisperson did this, this person
person that and that.
And if I can use an object, aperson is an object.
Lesson, you know, kevinGoodyear is one that started out
, you know family business andbasically see the pants and
(06:52):
whatnot bought a tow truck fromme and we were competitors but
remained friends and friends tothis day.
He has finally understood thathe has to run a business and
he's up to I don, rolling stocknow something like that.
But he brought, uh, some of hisfamily members and they had
experience in commercialinterest.
(07:12):
Uh, it's pretty, involves, youknow commercial interest.
Uh, connected, understood.
Uh, you know networking and thethings that take it takes to
the right a business.
Any delegate you know in thebusiness has been growing, has
cost of money, you know, and thethings it takes to run a
business and he's delegated andthe business has been growing.
Has it cost him money?
Yeah, but he has invested inthe right people, which Gary Coe
(07:34):
did, and he's turning themloose and for the first time
he's actually taken some timeoff and becoming a business
owner instead of a token ofbribery, I'll get you something.
Go out and work with Rick, withhis rotators.
He's as good as anybody, butit's a business and he's
realizing that if you're goingto have a business, you need to
(07:57):
run it like one.
And that's one of the things Istarted doing from the get-go is
that we had a logo.
We painted our trucks all thesame.
We had a light and bold logoand my cousin actually came up
with the idea of a smart and Ithought you know, little
children can't read, but theycan see the golden arches and
they know it means happy time,happy meal.
(08:18):
So why do we want to have towtrucks that we can have occluded
?
Beautiful graphics, beautifulpaint jobs, ornate, and you've
got to be right on top of it tobe able to see who it is.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Why.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Why not market your business with consistency?
It's something that people seeyour truck go down the road and
they don't have to read anything.
They know who it is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Because so often we get our ego wrapped up into
things, and ego is important.
It takes that to be able to runa business and to face failure
and to face the things thathappen.
But we're not running ourbusiness for our competitors,
we're running it for ourcustomers.
It is our customers that payour bills.
It is the customers that needto tell other potential clients
(09:08):
about it and so often we forgetwhat we're doing and what we're
selling.
We're not selling tow trucks.
If we're a tow operator, we'reselling a service, we're selling
peace of mind.
And back in the dark ages, whenthose arcs were still floating,
I used to do Yellow Pages ads,which are a big point now, but
(09:34):
I've never had a problemborrowing concepts from smarter
people to make.
If it works, then maybe I cantake part of it.
And back in the day, if youremember, allstate used to have
these ads where they would hithands cradling their car, you
know, and they weren't sellinginsurance, they were selling
peace of mind.
I thought, well, that's smart.
You know I'm not selling a towtruck.
(09:56):
I look at all these yellowpages ads and here's 15 tow
trucks lined up in a row.
And here's a young lady uh, ayoung mother with her child on
the side of the road.
It's pouring down rain.
She doesn't care how many towtrucks you have, it doesn't mean
a thing to her.
What she does care about is herchild and her family.
And are you going to show up asa professional?
Are you going to treat me withrespect?
(10:18):
Are you going to treat my carwith respect?
That's all she cares about.
That's right and that's whatwe're selling.
And again it ties back and italmost ties back in, ties back
in the price per pound.
How we charge, everything is nothow we would perceive it, but
how does the customer perceiveit?
(10:38):
What are we doing to make uslook as professionals, as
business owners?
You know we've come a long,long ways and you've done a
great job in helping to bring usin the point of this out of the
dark ages, and you've repeatedthe same message over and over
and over again for years.
We're better than that and weare, but you've had to spell it
(10:59):
out bit by bit.
This is how we work withcompanies.
This is how we do things.
This is how we be professional.
It's not just the mechanics ofit, it's also, as you know, the
pricing and the image that wepresent to our customers,
whether it be trucking customersor individuals.
We're not vultures.
We are a professional cleanupcrew.
(11:20):
We're here to make your problemgo away for a price.
But that's what we're here forand we want you to feel good
about it when we do that.
So I think it's more of amindset for the total business,
not just the pricing, not justprice per pound, not just where
(11:42):
trucks look, but the wholemindset.
And it starts with what are weselling?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And it's not tow trucks Right Now.
Excellent point, excellent.
Yeah, we haven't even startedtalking price per pound.
I've already learned a lot.
That was some good information,but we do need to take a quick
break.
Can you hang around until afterthe break and we'll come right
back and we'll get right intothe Pressure Pound.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
TRAA, the Injured Drivers Fund and legislation
that makes all of us safer arewhat makes this industry special
.
Ina Towing supports all of thisand more.
When there is a need, gayRochester is always one of the
first to come forward and askhow can I help?
The American Towing andRecovery Institute is honored to
(12:29):
have the support of the INATowing Network.
Together, we all make adifference.
Ina Towing Network simplifiedsolutions, superior service.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
For electric and other alternative fuel vehicles.
We have developed an app thatgives you all the manufacturers
411 for when that 911 happens.
Whether you are a fire tow orpolice, we got you covered.
To find the EV Clever app, goto your Apple or Google Play
store for a 30-day free trial.
We also offer the National TowOperator Certification, an
(13:03):
independently sourced virtualtesting program covering light
duty, heavy duty, electric andalternative fuel vehicle.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
All right, we're back from the break.
Got Storm and Norman out ofOzark, alabama here with us.
Been out of the towing.
You were in the towing businessfor a number of years and you
sold towing equipment.
Am I correct?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And then you got out of both of those at the same
time, or how did that work?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Sold the towing business first and shortly
thereafter got out of the towingindustry.
In going back to the state ofmind and running it as a
business, I wasn't going to giveit to my kids number one and
number two.
I wasn't going to force it uponthem if they had no interest in
it, because we had two goalsfor our kids when they grew up
(13:52):
to love God and they work.
And then what they did andtheir dream they followed me to
be theirs, not mine.
And so they worked in thebusiness and everything,
dispatching their horse andtrucks or whatever, because it
made them work.
But at the end of the day ithad to be their dream.
If it wasn't, then I wasn'tgoing to force it upon them, and
(14:13):
so we sold the business andthey're all successful in their,
in their own rights.
But part of running thebusiness is building one that
you can sell.
number one number two, or passdown, or, you know, bring out a
second generation.
But that needs to be a choicethat you think about about five
minutes before you decide to doit, but much, much earlier.
(14:36):
And then you plan how you runyour business.
What kind of image do you wantto have?
Am I?
Because then they go buy a towtruck, you know, but there is a
difference between that andhaving an established business
that has a brand.
So everything you know and youmentioned weaving things
together, and it is it is atapestry of business.
(14:58):
It is a means of workingeverything together and, as an
owner, that's your job is toorchestrate everything
orchestrate your people, yourplan, the vision that you have.
And it's not an easy job at all.
It's lonely, you know, at thetop, and any time you try
(15:18):
something different, like priceper pound, it's scary.
You know, because you havecompetitors that are saying,
well, that's stupid, I wouldnever do that.
Well, they're not paying yourbills.
You need to work for yourcustomers.
So many tollers are so worriedabout what the competition is
doing and they should be worriedabout what the man with the
(15:39):
paycheck or the right in thecheck is doing.
That's who you worry about.
You can watch your competitors,but run your business off of
your customers and don't beafraid to try something new.
Will it work?
Not always, but if it does,great If it doesn't try
something different.
Don't be afraid to step out anduh and try something that looks
like it might be a good concept.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Well, a lot of people think price for pounds new, but
it's not.
How long, how long has it beenout?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
oh, my word, that's been out uh 30 years.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think it started sorry 30 years, I'm guessing
probably 90.
Yeah, I'd say about 30 years,I'm guessing probably.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, I'd say about 30 years.
Yeah, like anything that's newor different.
You know, sometimes it takesdifferent amounts of time for
people to catch on or for it to,you know, gain momentum.
But it started when, you know,I'd bought air cushions from
Mark Anderson and I think I hadthat old 600 and I found I was
(16:38):
doing the job quicker.
And so I thought, well, yeah, Ineed to do something different.
And the seed was planted withMark, and then we took and
worked and expanded it.
And then what we did because Iwant to be fair to people, I
don't want to shortchange myself, I don't want my customers to
feel like they've been rippedoff and so what we did, when we
(17:01):
designed the price per pound andwent through the process of
fine-tuning it, we actually ranfor probably a year or so, ran
our regular bills rightalongside the price per pound.
So, every bill I did.
I did both Because I wanted tosay, okay, is this fair?
Does this come in within reason, is it something that is
(17:24):
explainable and justifiable?
Because I want to be able tojustify what I built and keep it
in mind that there is a pricethat people have in mind, that
they want to pay for recovers,and that price is zero.
Nobody wants to pay anything forrecovery.
So it doesn't matter what youcharge.
It's more than they want to pay.
So you're not going to makepeople happy with a particular
(17:48):
number and you can't make yourdecision based on what you would
pay or what you would do.
It has to be based on severaldifferent factors.
But one of the things thatfrustrated me is in this
industry, unfortunately, youhave some people out in left
field, let's put it that way.
(18:08):
They're a little bit ethicallychallenged and that's something
I've always had a problem with.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, you have that on a couple levels.
You have some folks that areout in left field that are maybe
a little bit off, and you havesome people that aren't even in
the ballpark.
They're not even in the stadium.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
So there's really two different levels of that,
because the not-in-the-stadiumfolks are almost criminal
sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
it seems to me Correct.
Sorry for interrupting.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
And I had I think it was executive with Schneider, I
think and we sat down a while.
I was up in Washington DC atpanels speaking to DOT and some
big insurance companies,trucking companies, about price
per pound, because it had beenabused and it had been misused.
And it just got ridiculous andhe pulled out a picture of a
(19:06):
gentleman that had sat down andthis had been 20, 25 years ago,
something like that, and priceshad certainly gone up since then
.
But he had sat down and when hefinished his recovery he sat
down in the waffle house gettinga cup of coffee and scribbled
on a napkin $100,000.
Here you go, here's your bill,you know.
(19:31):
I mean, is it a $100,000 job?
I don't know, it wasn't there.
I mean it could have been afive-day job.
I mean, who knows?
But where's the justification?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Where's the description of the work that you
did?
What is that customer buyingbesides a cocktail napkin that
has $100,000 on it?
That's right.
How is that fair to yourcustomer or the insurance
company?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
with that I agree.
I totally agree.
So big picture explain theconcept of price per pound, how
it works.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
The concept is basically you're taking a job
that you do not every day but ona regular basis, and you're
flat rating the job Okay andyou're flat rating it with a
measure that trucking companiesunderstand.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
They live and die below weight.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Everything is measured in weight at the scale
house.
You know your LTLs are chargingso many pounds, 100 weight, so
everything is something they canunderstand.
Your insurance companies arelooking at percentages,
actuarials and risk.
So when you take and bringthings down to the point of
(20:44):
ridiculous, then it helps themunderstand what you are doing.
So what was happening is thatthese individuals in telecoms
were buying hydraulics, theywere buying air cushions and
some of them were getting intorotators so that they could get
(21:06):
in training from you and fromRoss and from different places,
so they could be the best attheir trade, and they were
losing their butt because theywere getting the job done too
fast because of the investmentthey made.
Where is the return on theirinvestment?
Trade?
And they were losing their buttbecause they were getting the
job done too fast because of theinvestment they made.
Where is the return on theirinvestment?
Not knowing what else to do,they would circle the wagons,
(21:26):
bring every piece of equipmentthey had out there, start
charging for every stash block,every inch cable and who knows
what else, to run the bill offto try to justify it because
they didn't know any better,because it's the only way that
they could get the pricing thereand justify it.
And the customer's like whatare you doing?
I mean this is ridiculous.
(21:46):
The second concept that I lookedat with this is that anybody is
uncomfortable when they don'tknow what they're going to have
to pay.
Yes, it could be, you'reworking on your house.
It could be working on your car.
If you have some storm damageon your house, which is
(22:07):
happening to a lot of people nowand a contractor comes in and
says, yeah, I can fix it, I'lllet you know how much costs I've
done, you are not a happycamper.
You're on pins and needles.
You are dependent solely onthis individual, this contractor
, this tradesman, this craftsmantreating you right or what you
(22:28):
feel is being treated right, andyou do not know until the end.
Why can't we give our customersa price before we ever start?
And with the price per poundyou can.
Then, if you have another call,come in, you can send the truck
over there.
You can pull a man off.
He's not paying for that, he'spaying for the recovery.
He's paying for the results.
(22:50):
How those results come about ismy problem.
To store it never, ever shouldbe his problem.
As to how I accomplish the job,just that I accomplish the job
properly, get safely, and I dothe best job possible to protect
his equipment.
That's all he cares about.
If he could do it himself, he'ddo it.
He wouldn't call us.
(23:10):
We're the experts.
Act like it and charge like it,but don't place our internal
machinations on our customer.
When you get insurance, theydon't show you what the
actuarial tables are.
They don't tell you how theycan ride with the number.
This is what it's going to costyou for your truck insurance
(23:32):
for a year.
In return, we're going to be astopgap for you on your losses
up to a certain amount.
So you know what you're buying.
You know what the risk is, theyknow what the risk is, and so
we have a happy medium whereeverybody walks away with
something that they can livewith.
So when you have a truck trailerrolled over inside and you're
(23:55):
charging so much a pound, sowhen you have a tractor rolled
over inside and you're chargingso much a pound and they've got
a load of ribeyes at $7 a poundand you tell them that this is
what it's going to cost andyou've reduced it to the point
of ridiculous, similar to what alife insurance agent will do
when they come in and pat yourknee and say my son, your lovely
(24:21):
bride over there, isn't, isn'tshe worth 10 cents a unit per
day?
And they say, no, right, go seeyour lawyer.
But when you add it up all theunits, and you add per day, now
you've got a pretty healthy billevery month.
But when you bring it down todo I want to keep my wife and
(24:41):
take care of her, uh, or do I doI want to pitch a bid over a
few cents?
Uh, when you're able to say,hey, for a few cents a pound,
we're going to set your tracktrailer up, we're going to save
your stakes, but we will saveyou money for this amount and
we'll take care of it.
We'll take care of everything.
All the details are our problem, not yours.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
That is what people want to hear.
Is everything's handled?
Hey, I've got to get you tohang around for one more quick
break and we'll get back on it.
Sure Dig in a little deeper.
Thank you, Be right back folks.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
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Speaker 2 (26:18):
Welcome back folks.
Thanks for listening.
We really appreciate it.
We've got Stormin' Norman, theinventor of price per pound over
30 years ago Now, just so somefolks don't, I don't think this
is a new concept to them.
Basically, what the concept isis you use it on major
recoveries.
Is this something that's meantto be used for tow calls or this
(26:39):
is for recovery only?
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Absolutely not meant to use for tow calls or this is
for recovery only.
Is that correct?
Absolutely not.
If you, if you've got a youknow bread and butter, nose down
, trailer you back up, you popit up and go about your business
.
I mean, this is not, absolutelynot designed to be a normal tow
swap out or anything such asthat.
This is strictly for recoveriesthere, nothing.
It's a pricing mechanism that'sin your tool bag.
(27:06):
You do not walk your toolbox andpull out a combination wrench
every time.
Sometimes you use a ratchet,sometimes you use an open end In
your financial business.
It should be no different.
When you're pricing, sometimesyou charge over the mile,
sometimes you charge a simplejob by the hour, but on a
recovery, when you have a fairlystandard bread and butter job,
(27:30):
then you charge with a pound.
Now there may be instanceswhere you say I'm going to have
to do this one.
By now You've got a D9 stuck inthe mud someplace, you know, and
it's been buried for a month,traction locked up, you've got a
mess on your hands and you maytell them I'm going to charge
you by the hour because of, andexplain why, okay, but you never
(27:55):
, ever, and this has happenedbefore, and this is one of the
reasons that I ended up yearsago speaking to the DOT.
This is one of the reasons thatI ended up years ago speaking
to the DOT was that it was beingpromoted that you double dip.
You never, ever, charge someoneby the hour and price per pound
.
It's one or the other.
You use it for recovery.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Don't abuse the system or we will end up
inviting regulators on top of uswell, that's what's going on in
many states and we'll talkabout that more in a minute.
But so one of the things Iremember about it if I'm correct
me, if I'm wrong, 60,000 poundminimum.
This is for attracted, you know, loaded tractor, trailer type
work, and then you had a baserate and then an add-on.
(28:39):
I remember one of them was ifthe wheels were higher than the
roof, expand on that for me alittle Very, very similar.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So it kind of built that concept off of a flat rate
book for engine work okay, right.
So let's say you had a waterpump job and it was 3.8 hours
times your hourly rate, and thenyou had an add-on for an
alternate or for a airconditioning, you know so
there's different add-ons if thecomplexity of that job yes so
(29:12):
if it wasn't there, you know, asa customer you weren't paying
for a expanded water pump.
Job before you had was simpleand or the water pump and so we
look to use, used basically thesame concept where we had a
minimum of $60,000, I think itwas on a tractor, $30,000 on a
straight truck.
Okay, good point, good point.
Just going out there and doingthe job for nothing, okay.
(29:35):
But if it was fully loaded orif it was overloaded, it could
have been an oversized load.
Then the price went upaccordingly.
Then, as the complexityhappened, if it's raining
outside, inclement weather, okay, that's additional challenges.
If you're using airbags.
On top of that, if you're headdown, okay.
It's always more difficult,especially if you have a box van
(29:56):
, because you lose and those ofyou in the touring business know
this.
I mean you lose the roof, youlose the walls, you lose the
floor.
Okay, so it's not.
So when your head down and theweight is up there in the roof,
you've got a problem.
It's hard to work and you wantto do a good job.
You want to recover intact asmuch as possible, unless you're
(30:19):
in the risk program or somethingwhere you just get paid to
clear the road and we don'tworry about that uh.
But at the end of the day it ismore work and even if you're in
the risk program, uh, or tripprogram or some of these uh,
different highway programs, nowyou're having to bring out extra
equipment you know to to getthat job done and clear the road
, because they're looking moreat cleaning the road quickly as
(30:42):
opposed to saving the equipment.
There still involves moreequipment, so you add an add-on
to that for the additional work.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Well, that's a great analogy about the mechanic flat
rate.
If the vehicle has an airconditioner, it's a harder job
to do, so there's a little bitmore of an add-on.
That's a really good, cleardefinition.
And what was there?
Five, six, seven add-ons, if Iremember originally.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Something like that it's.
You know, try to keep it simple, and this was one of the
problems with the concept isthat everybody wants to make
things difficult.
It's the simplest things thatmake life easier, but I don't
want to use my human nature.
I remember reading years agoabout Thomas Edison.
(31:30):
When he hired his engineers, hewanted people to think outside
the box.
That would make things simple.
And so he would take them inthe lab and he'd say, okay, here
is a light bulb minus a socket.
I want you to tell me what thevolume is of this light bulb and
what would be contained in thislight bulb.
And he'd get some engineers topull out their slide rules and
(31:52):
calipers and measuring.
And you have a globe and atapered sphere.
It's a very complex shape totry to measure and determine
what the volume or the contentinside that semi-globe is, and
(32:13):
then they would just figure itand put it around and then you
would have an engineer thatwould come in and say, oh okay,
took a beaker of water, pouredit in and then took a graduated
beaker, poured it back, saidokay, there's your water.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Absolutely Making things simple is so much harder
than what it would appear to be,and the problem that we had
with the concept it was toosimple.
It sure has to be harder to dothis.
I don't want to spend eighthours building a massive head
recovery.
I want to do this.
Why do I want to spend eighthours building a massive head
recovery?
I want to live 30 minutes, youknow, and what we would do is we
would put a little write-up.
(32:50):
This is the scenario.
This is where we're at.
This is what we're dealing with.
It was hazmat.
This is the placard numbers.
This is the dangers that wefaced and that we have willingly
obligated ourselves, our lives,our health and our insurance
company to.
I want you to know that whenI'm charging you an additional
add-on for hazmat, that this iswhy I'm eliminating your risk,
(33:12):
I'm eliminating your blowbackfor a price.
And so when you do the write-upas to what's going on oh,
that's what the job is Iguarantee you the driver didn't
tell the company it was that bad.
He's trying to keep his job andthen you would have the actual
price per pound on that, listingout what details that you used,
(33:33):
and then you have your total,and it makes it very, very
simple, understandable, becausewhoever's the main candidate of
the trucking company, they haveto justify it to their
comptroller.
So give them something tojustify it.
They're just looking to see why, so help them.
You want your check.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
You're right.
Make it easy for themabsolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Because if things are simple and easy then it works
so much better.
Case in point I had anotherlittle side story here.
We live in South Alabama and sowe had a tornado, hurricane no,
yes, well, hurricane, hurricaneMichael and found out on the
(34:19):
last claim that I had, with somewater damage, that insurance
companies no longer use thissystem of go get two quotes and
we'll pay the most one.
They have a consortium ofinsurance companies to build
their software problem calledXactimate, and it's 10 to the
nth detail.
It's like we used to do withmeasuring every single snatch,
(34:44):
block, inch of cable out thereand everything else.
It's just to the minutia, andthere's so much stuff there that
a client or owner of a housewould look at and just get blown
away.
But you can have slow, mediumand high levels and if you're
not careful they can skim 10%,15% off at the top of what is
(35:07):
owed to you to properly repairyour place.
And so I thought, ah, this isthe way the game is getting
played now.
So I heard somebody that hadthat very expensive program,
interesting enough, as Imentioned, designed by the
insurance companies, surprise,surprise, and I had them do it,
and so when the adjuster walkedup, I had a stack of papers and
(35:30):
he said well, we need to do this.
I said here, it is right here.
And when he's, what about?
I said it's in there.
What about it's in there?
It's like ragu spaghetti sauce,it's all there.
And then I asked him.
I said would you like me togive you the electronic file
where everything is done for you?
Would you do that for me?
I would love to do that for you, sir, and in my mind, if he's
(35:54):
not having to type everything in, he is not going to be nickel
and diamond what my estimatorcame up with and he didn't.
That's what we want to do.
We want to make our pricingsimple, explainable, justifiable
and easy to explain for someonethat doesn't know a thing about
towing wreckers or even trucksthat sit in the office and are
(36:17):
being counted.
Let's make their job easy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, that's a great point.
So what are you doing nowadays,normally?
We never did tell the folksthat, and being talented, let's
make their job easy.
Yeah, that's a great point.
So what are you doing nowadays,norm?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
We never did tell the folks that we are raising
German Shepherds and we havequite a few with veterans that
are alive today because they'reShepherds.
We give a 10% discount tomilitary and families with
disabilities.
I'd strongly suggest them totowers because they.
(36:45):
As I've dealt with PTSD withour disabled veterans and
whatnot, I've realized that inthe toying business there's so
much that we face that we neverget credit for.
You know, I remember stuff from20, 25 years ago and to me the
(37:06):
worst ones were burned jobs andkids.
You know, and I don't think weget enough credit for I don't
know if you want to call it PTSDor what we have to live with,
because we have a job to do.
You can't talk to people aboutit.
You know the brain matter isgray.
You feel like leaning over aditch sometimes and throwing up
(37:29):
when you pull a car off somebodythat's not pretty made up in a
casket, and I really wish thatpeople would respect us as true
first responders in the job wedo and the emotional price we
pay, because we pay an emotionalprice, and so I have seen
(37:50):
shepherds literally keep peoplealive, help them with their
mental state of mind and so on,and then, because of that, we
and a bunch of Karens back in2015, 2017, something like that.
We got involved in Montgomerylegislation and I've written I
don't know six, seven, eightlaws down in Alabama.
The last one I wrote is onethat is very prescient to the
(38:15):
Towers, and it was the JohnHubbard New Roller Act and again
, I, look at stuff, not how doeseverybody else do it, but how
can we make it better?
And particularly in Alabama,we're known as the bottom of the
heap.
We just do what other people do.
We don't think outside the box.
Most states, including Alabama,had to move over a lot.
(38:35):
Not enough teeth in it.
In most mills You're slappingthe wrist if you didn't slow
down and move over.
And most people don't slow downand move over and most people
don't even think about slowingdown.
They think about I have to moveover.
A young man, john Hubbard, wason his rollback changing the
(38:57):
fight tire for a lady and ayoung man from going to Isle of
man off of school there, lookedin the left mirror and went to
pull over, not realizing therewas a lady running 93 I think
the computer said miles an hour.
She swerved, hit the guardrail,came across and killed John In
his 20s.
He lost his life.
(39:19):
What a waste was.
What a waste and what a waste.
And a tragedy that never seemedto happen.
It didn't have to happen.
It's hard to see how late aswell as it should have, if you
walk out of court, a free woman,right, mother, devastated, yeah
we've seen that Nobody's doinganything.
Yeah, we've seen that time andtime again around the country,
(39:41):
it's you know.
So hopefully this will be amodel law, but basically what I
did is increase the fine.
If you get caught the thirdtime, you lose your license for
six months.
Then the real kicker was ifthere is physical injury, which
is you just basically hurtyourself serious injury, which
would be something that wouldtake the rest with your life or
(40:03):
death it goes from a Class Amisdemeanor all the way up to a
felony.
That's good Now and I don't wantto be in the middle of this
when you're doing that but why,again this goes back to?
Sometimes we have to demand, astollers, to be treated as
professionals, and if you'regoing to kill one of us, you
(40:24):
better pay the price.
That's right, and that's whatI've been doing behind the
scenes trying to fight forveterans, for disabled and for
tollers, because we deservebetter.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Oh, absolutely Well.
Thank you for what you do.
We really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time forthis podcast.
If people want to get in touchwith you, how can they reach out
to you?
Do you have an email form or?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
something Sure.
Stormandnormanhorton atgmailcom.
My 6201 triple S Shepherds ismy address.
We mostly raise DDR EastGermans, amazing dogs.
But like anything else yougotta be in charge.
(41:09):
But if you have any questions,feel free to reach out and talk
to me or contact me through Wesand Wes.
I appreciate you reaching outand appreciate what you're doing
for this industry to bring uskicking and screaming into
modern history.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Well, thank you, I've got to credit DJ Harrington for
dragging me into it first.
But yeah, we're thankful to behere and communicating with as
many people as we do on podcasts, and part of the reason I think
a lot of people listen is good,insightful interviews like you
just gave.
And part of the reason I thinka lot of people listen is good,
insightful interviews like youjust gave.
For anybody involved in themanagement level of telling, it
was a master course on differentsubjects.
(41:49):
Thank you, stormin.
We'll have you back on.
If you see anything pop up,reach out, but if not, we'll
have you back on and talk soon,okay?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
All right, Take care Wes have a good day.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thanks, dj, take us home buddy.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Thanks, wes, this has been a good one.
I am so glad we archive everyone of these things.
So if you're archiving and Ihope you do you listen to this
again.
When he brought up the name ofGary Coe, I loved it.
When he talked about the greatKevin Goodyear, from Alabama,
where, of course, stormy Normanlives Kevin Goodyear, from
(42:24):
Alabama, where, of course,stormy Norman lives.
But to remember Mark Anderson,my dear friend who has passed
away many years ago, it waswonderful.
Great tips Invest in the rightpeople and in your people.
So, without further ado, I wantto tell all of our listeners
I'll see you next week on theGreat Towing News Channel.
you're on the train to success with april and wes
wilburn.
I'm dj harrington, the co-host,better known as the toe doctor.
We're all on our way to thetown of proper towing and
recovery, along with ourproducer, chuck camp, in the
studio.
Don't go to the town of woulda,coulda, shoulda.
(00:25):
You coulda had done this.
You should have done that.
Listen every week tothought-provoking wisdom from
great guests.
So if you have Spotify, itunes,pandora, stitcher, iheartmedia
or the number one podcast, ormaybe Amazon or wherever you get
(00:50):
your podcasts, turn in onWednesday and be turned on all
week long.
If you are a state associationand want your announcements or
upcoming state association newsannouncements or upcoming state
association news or maybe aco-show that's coming up, let us
(01:10):
know.
Our podcast studio phone numberis 706-409-5603.
I'm proud to be part of a greatteam at the american dorm
recovery institute.
Let's make 2025 our best yearever.
I will turn it to april loomiswell, dj.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you, as always, I appreciate your kind words
and your introduction.
As we talked about in the firstsegment, we got a great
returning guest.
Today we have the man thatinvented the price per pound.
Not only invented it, he usedit for years in his towing
business and there's a lot offacts and fictions about price
per pound.
There seems to be a fair amountof conversation going on about
it right now around the country.
I know here in North Carolinathe state association president
(01:51):
who we had on last week talkedto me about how the legislators
had a lot of questions about itand he was trying to put
together some information on it.
I guess he hasn't been in touchwith you yet, but I'm sure he
will.
He's a busy guy.
So we have Stormin Norman outof Alabama.
Stormin, for the folks thatdon't know, you give us an
introduction and a briefbackground about your
(02:12):
involvement in towing and whatyou're doing today, if you don't
mind.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Sure, I started out in the garage business in 81, I
think it was, and had to workfor a bus company and was always
fascinated with the tow trucks,even more so when one of them
decided to pass me on theinterstate that I was towing as
a result of some crappy weldingjobs on a homemade hitch.
(02:39):
I thought you know, I'd love toget in the record business, but
there has to be a better way.
And so in 89, 80, 89, somethinglike that, somewhere in there, I
bought my first tow truck,which is an old 600 on a white,
with a 238 Detroit Holes in thefloor, and when I showed it to
my banker he said do not let mesee this truck until it's
painted and you have it fixed,otherwise I will lose my job.
(03:01):
Like so many in the towingbusiness, we started down a lick
and a promise and a prayer andbuilt the company to where, I
think in 98, 99, something likethat, we had 16 tow trucks, 25
employees, and then sold thebusiness.
But along the way we went fromthe old mechanicals to
(03:24):
hydraulics and underlifts andair cushions and so on and so
forth and realized thatsomething was not right.
We were going to school, wewere going to classes, we were
trying to learn from the best ofthe best on how to do the job
better, to do the job quicker,so we could charge by the hour,
(03:45):
so we could get paid less.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And not coming from the towing industry, I looked at
things a little bit differentlybecause I've never been in all
my life.
So the question I had time andagain was why?
Why are we doing this?
And I had some great mentors,like Gary Coe, that took some
time to share pricing matricesand some different concepts that
(04:10):
you know that made sense.
It was something that madesense, let's go with it.
But if we're doing it justbecause Grandpa did it, why?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, Gary Coe was excellent at putting numbers to
paper and thinking about thingsfrom a real logical point of
view.
He really was excellent atputting numbers to paper and
thinking about things from areal logical point of view.
He really was excellent at that.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
He was an amazing guy .
He was a businessman.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And one of the things that I've noticed in the
business and we're doing GermanShepherds now, same thing.
I mean there are a lot ofpeople that are doing something
but they're not in business.
It's more of a catch can orwhatever.
And Gary had started withnothing, basically, and ended up
with I don't know what 200 towtrucks, four employees, 11 milk
(04:54):
cases, something like that.
This is the guy I want to learnfrom.
And I called him up one day andsaid Gary, can I come out and
shadow you for a couple days?
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I did and I walked away with two concepts One, he
hired people that were smarterthan him, and two, he gave them
the authority and the ability,with accountability, to get the
job done.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's important and that was the key.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
That was the key, because so many towers that were
so afraid to take a vacation,so afraid to turn their business
over to their employees andtrust them with that and take a
break.
You know, because they weren'table or willing to learn to
delegate to their employees, andso the same concept happened
(05:41):
with the pricing part.
Well, you know, we've alwaysdone it this way.
Hang on Before we jump.
Happened with the pricing part.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Well, we've always done it this way.
Hang on.
Before we jump on to thepricing, can I add a comment?
To your vacation?
And taking a minute away, Ilost a very good.
I thought he was a friend, buthe was definitely a customer.
He got offended one timebecause I said to him and this
was when he'd been in for 25years, he had a big operation, a
couple locations, and he wasafraid to take a minute away
(06:06):
from there not to be there ifthe big wreck came in.
And I said to him, if you builtsomething, you can't leave.
You built nothing and he tookit the wrong way.
He thought I was picking on himpersonally and I wasn't.
But you know, if you're a slaveto this thing, you built
nothing.
And I'm sorry to interrupt you,but I just wanted to touch on
that.
It's also very timely, Sincewe're at summertime it's very
(06:29):
timely Norman Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
It really is.
And if I can use a, because inthe toy business it's, you know,
so often we say, okay, thisperson did this, this person
person that and that.
And if I can use an object, aperson is an object.
Lesson, you know, kevinGoodyear is one that started out
, you know family business andbasically see the pants and
(06:52):
whatnot bought a tow truck fromme and we were competitors but
remained friends and friends tothis day.
He has finally understood thathe has to run a business and
he's up to I don, rolling stocknow something like that.
But he brought, uh, some of hisfamily members and they had
experience in commercialinterest.
(07:12):
Uh, it's pretty, involves, youknow commercial interest.
Uh, connected, understood.
Uh, you know networking and thethings that take it takes to
the right a business.
Any delegate you know in thebusiness has been growing, has
cost of money, you know, and thethings it takes to run a
business and he's delegated andthe business has been growing.
Has it cost him money?
Yeah, but he has invested inthe right people, which Gary Coe
(07:34):
did, and he's turning themloose and for the first time
he's actually taken some timeoff and becoming a business
owner instead of a token ofbribery, I'll get you something.
Go out and work with Rick, withhis rotators.
He's as good as anybody, butit's a business and he's
realizing that if you're goingto have a business, you need to
(07:57):
run it like one.
And that's one of the things Istarted doing from the get-go is
that we had a logo.
We painted our trucks all thesame.
We had a light and bold logoand my cousin actually came up
with the idea of a smart and Ithought you know, little
children can't read, but theycan see the golden arches and
they know it means happy time,happy meal.
(08:18):
So why do we want to have towtrucks that we can have occluded
?
Beautiful graphics, beautifulpaint jobs, ornate, and you've
got to be right on top of it tobe able to see who it is.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Why.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Why not market your business with consistency?
It's something that people seeyour truck go down the road and
they don't have to read anything.
They know who it is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Because so often we get our ego wrapped up into
things, and ego is important.
It takes that to be able to runa business and to face failure
and to face the things thathappen.
But we're not running ourbusiness for our competitors,
we're running it for ourcustomers.
It is our customers that payour bills.
It is the customers that needto tell other potential clients
(09:08):
about it and so often we forgetwhat we're doing and what we're
selling.
We're not selling tow trucks.
If we're a tow operator, we'reselling a service, we're selling
peace of mind.
And back in the dark ages, whenthose arcs were still floating,
I used to do Yellow Pages ads,which are a big point now, but
(09:34):
I've never had a problemborrowing concepts from smarter
people to make.
If it works, then maybe I cantake part of it.
And back in the day, if youremember, allstate used to have
these ads where they would hithands cradling their car, you
know, and they weren't sellinginsurance, they were selling
peace of mind.
I thought, well, that's smart.
You know I'm not selling a towtruck.
(09:56):
I look at all these yellowpages ads and here's 15 tow
trucks lined up in a row.
And here's a young lady uh, ayoung mother with her child on
the side of the road.
It's pouring down rain.
She doesn't care how many towtrucks you have, it doesn't mean
a thing to her.
What she does care about is herchild and her family.
And are you going to show up asa professional?
Are you going to treat me withrespect?
(10:18):
Are you going to treat my carwith respect?
That's all she cares about.
That's right and that's whatwe're selling.
And again it ties back and italmost ties back in, ties back
in the price per pound.
How we charge, everything is nothow we would perceive it, but
how does the customer perceiveit?
(10:38):
What are we doing to make uslook as professionals, as
business owners?
You know we've come a long,long ways and you've done a
great job in helping to bring usin the point of this out of the
dark ages, and you've repeatedthe same message over and over
and over again for years.
We're better than that and weare, but you've had to spell it
(10:59):
out bit by bit.
This is how we work withcompanies.
This is how we do things.
This is how we be professional.
It's not just the mechanics ofit, it's also, as you know, the
pricing and the image that wepresent to our customers,
whether it be trucking customersor individuals.
We're not vultures.
We are a professional cleanupcrew.
(11:20):
We're here to make your problemgo away for a price.
But that's what we're here forand we want you to feel good
about it when we do that.
So I think it's more of amindset for the total business,
not just the pricing, not justprice per pound, not just where
(11:42):
trucks look, but the wholemindset.
And it starts with what are weselling?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And it's not tow trucks Right Now.
Excellent point, excellent.
Yeah, we haven't even startedtalking price per pound.
I've already learned a lot.
That was some good information,but we do need to take a quick
break.
Can you hang around until afterthe break and we'll come right
back and we'll get right intothe Pressure Pound.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
TRAA, the Injured Drivers Fund and legislation
that makes all of us safer arewhat makes this industry special
.
Ina Towing supports all of thisand more.
When there is a need, gayRochester is always one of the
first to come forward and askhow can I help?
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(12:29):
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Speaker 4 (12:41):
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(13:03):
independently sourced virtualtesting program covering light
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Speaker 2 (13:12):
All right, we're back from the break.
Got Storm and Norman out ofOzark, alabama here with us.
Been out of the towing.
You were in the towing businessfor a number of years and you
sold towing equipment.
Am I correct?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And then you got out of both of those at the same
time, or how did that work?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Sold the towing business first and shortly
thereafter got out of the towingindustry.
In going back to the state ofmind and running it as a
business, I wasn't going to giveit to my kids number one and
number two.
I wasn't going to force it uponthem if they had no interest in
it, because we had two goalsfor our kids when they grew up
(13:52):
to love God and they work.
And then what they did andtheir dream they followed me to
be theirs, not mine.
And so they worked in thebusiness and everything,
dispatching their horse andtrucks or whatever, because it
made them work.
But at the end of the day ithad to be their dream.
If it wasn't, then I wasn'tgoing to force it upon them, and
(14:13):
so we sold the business andthey're all successful in their,
in their own rights.
But part of running thebusiness is building one that
you can sell.
number one number two, or passdown, or, you know, bring out a
second generation.
But that needs to be a choicethat you think about about five
minutes before you decide to doit, but much, much earlier.
(14:36):
And then you plan how you runyour business.
What kind of image do you wantto have?
Am I?
Because then they go buy a towtruck, you know, but there is a
difference between that andhaving an established business
that has a brand.
So everything you know and youmentioned weaving things
together, and it is it is atapestry of business.
(14:58):
It is a means of workingeverything together and, as an
owner, that's your job is toorchestrate everything
orchestrate your people, yourplan, the vision that you have.
And it's not an easy job at all.
It's lonely, you know, at thetop, and any time you try
(15:18):
something different, like priceper pound, it's scary.
You know, because you havecompetitors that are saying,
well, that's stupid, I wouldnever do that.
Well, they're not paying yourbills.
You need to work for yourcustomers.
So many tollers are so worriedabout what the competition is
doing and they should be worriedabout what the man with the
(15:39):
paycheck or the right in thecheck is doing.
That's who you worry about.
You can watch your competitors,but run your business off of
your customers and don't beafraid to try something new.
Will it work?
Not always, but if it does,great If it doesn't try
something different.
Don't be afraid to step out anduh and try something that looks
like it might be a good concept.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Well, a lot of people think price for pounds new, but
it's not.
How long, how long has it beenout?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
oh, my word, that's been out uh 30 years.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think it started sorry 30 years, I'm guessing
probably 90.
Yeah, I'd say about 30 years,I'm guessing probably.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, I'd say about 30 years.
Yeah, like anything that's newor different.
You know, sometimes it takesdifferent amounts of time for
people to catch on or for it to,you know, gain momentum.
But it started when, you know,I'd bought air cushions from
Mark Anderson and I think I hadthat old 600 and I found I was
(16:38):
doing the job quicker.
And so I thought, well, yeah, Ineed to do something different.
And the seed was planted withMark, and then we took and
worked and expanded it.
And then what we did because Iwant to be fair to people, I
don't want to shortchange myself, I don't want my customers to
feel like they've been rippedoff and so what we did, when we
(17:01):
designed the price per pound andwent through the process of
fine-tuning it, we actually ranfor probably a year or so, ran
our regular bills rightalongside the price per pound.
So, every bill I did.
I did both Because I wanted tosay, okay, is this fair?
Does this come in within reason, is it something that is
(17:24):
explainable and justifiable?
Because I want to be able tojustify what I built and keep it
in mind that there is a pricethat people have in mind, that
they want to pay for recovers,and that price is zero.
Nobody wants to pay anything forrecovery.
So it doesn't matter what youcharge.
It's more than they want to pay.
So you're not going to makepeople happy with a particular
(17:48):
number and you can't make yourdecision based on what you would
pay or what you would do.
It has to be based on severaldifferent factors.
But one of the things thatfrustrated me is in this
industry, unfortunately, youhave some people out in left
field, let's put it that way.
(18:08):
They're a little bit ethicallychallenged and that's something
I've always had a problem with.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, you have that on a couple levels.
You have some folks that areout in left field that are maybe
a little bit off, and you havesome people that aren't even in
the ballpark.
They're not even in the stadium.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
So there's really two different levels of that,
because the not-in-the-stadiumfolks are almost criminal
sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
it seems to me Correct.
Sorry for interrupting.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
And I had I think it was executive with Schneider, I
think and we sat down a while.
I was up in Washington DC atpanels speaking to DOT and some
big insurance companies,trucking companies, about price
per pound, because it had beenabused and it had been misused.
And it just got ridiculous andhe pulled out a picture of a
(19:06):
gentleman that had sat down andthis had been 20, 25 years ago,
something like that, and priceshad certainly gone up since then
.
But he had sat down and when hefinished his recovery he sat
down in the waffle house gettinga cup of coffee and scribbled
on a napkin $100,000.
Here you go, here's your bill,you know.
(19:31):
I mean, is it a $100,000 job?
I don't know, it wasn't there.
I mean it could have been afive-day job.
I mean, who knows?
But where's the justification?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Where's the description of the work that you
did?
What is that customer buyingbesides a cocktail napkin that
has $100,000 on it?
That's right.
How is that fair to yourcustomer or the insurance
company?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
with that I agree.
I totally agree.
So big picture explain theconcept of price per pound, how
it works.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
The concept is basically you're taking a job
that you do not every day but ona regular basis, and you're
flat rating the job Okay andyou're flat rating it with a
measure that trucking companiesunderstand.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
They live and die below weight.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Everything is measured in weight at the scale
house.
You know your LTLs are chargingso many pounds, 100 weight, so
everything is something they canunderstand.
Your insurance companies arelooking at percentages,
actuarials and risk.
So when you take and bringthings down to the point of
(20:44):
ridiculous, then it helps themunderstand what you are doing.
So what was happening is thatthese individuals in telecoms
were buying hydraulics, theywere buying air cushions and
some of them were getting intorotators so that they could get
(21:06):
in training from you and fromRoss and from different places,
so they could be the best attheir trade, and they were
losing their butt because theywere getting the job done too
fast because of the investmentthey made.
Where is the return on theirinvestment?
Trade?
And they were losing their buttbecause they were getting the
job done too fast because of theinvestment they made.
Where is the return on theirinvestment?
Not knowing what else to do,they would circle the wagons,
(21:26):
bring every piece of equipmentthey had out there, start
charging for every stash block,every inch cable and who knows
what else, to run the bill offto try to justify it because
they didn't know any better,because it's the only way that
they could get the pricing thereand justify it.
And the customer's like whatare you doing?
I mean this is ridiculous.
(21:46):
The second concept that I lookedat with this is that anybody is
uncomfortable when they don'tknow what they're going to have
to pay.
Yes, it could be, you'reworking on your house.
It could be working on your car.
If you have some storm damageon your house, which is
(22:07):
happening to a lot of people nowand a contractor comes in and
says, yeah, I can fix it, I'lllet you know how much costs I've
done, you are not a happycamper.
You're on pins and needles.
You are dependent solely onthis individual, this contractor
, this tradesman, this craftsmantreating you right or what you
(22:28):
feel is being treated right, andyou do not know until the end.
Why can't we give our customersa price before we ever start?
And with the price per poundyou can.
Then, if you have another call,come in, you can send the truck
over there.
You can pull a man off.
He's not paying for that, he'spaying for the recovery.
He's paying for the results.
(22:50):
How those results come about ismy problem.
To store it never, ever shouldbe his problem.
As to how I accomplish the job,just that I accomplish the job
properly, get safely, and I dothe best job possible to protect
his equipment.
That's all he cares about.
If he could do it himself, he'ddo it.
He wouldn't call us.
(23:10):
We're the experts.
Act like it and charge like it,but don't place our internal
machinations on our customer.
When you get insurance, theydon't show you what the
actuarial tables are.
They don't tell you how theycan ride with the number.
This is what it's going to costyou for your truck insurance
(23:32):
for a year.
In return, we're going to be astopgap for you on your losses
up to a certain amount.
So you know what you're buying.
You know what the risk is, theyknow what the risk is, and so
we have a happy medium whereeverybody walks away with
something that they can livewith.
So when you have a truck trailerrolled over inside and you're
(23:55):
charging so much a pound, sowhen you have a tractor rolled
over inside and you're chargingso much a pound and they've got
a load of ribeyes at $7 a poundand you tell them that this is
what it's going to cost andyou've reduced it to the point
of ridiculous, similar to what alife insurance agent will do
when they come in and pat yourknee and say my son, your lovely
(24:21):
bride over there, isn't, isn'tshe worth 10 cents a unit per
day?
And they say, no, right, go seeyour lawyer.
But when you add it up all theunits, and you add per day, now
you've got a pretty healthy billevery month.
But when you bring it down todo I want to keep my wife and
(24:41):
take care of her, uh, or do I doI want to pitch a bid over a
few cents?
Uh, when you're able to say,hey, for a few cents a pound,
we're going to set your tracktrailer up, we're going to save
your stakes, but we will saveyou money for this amount and
we'll take care of it.
We'll take care of everything.
All the details are our problem, not yours.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
That is what people want to hear.
Is everything's handled?
Hey, I've got to get you tohang around for one more quick
break and we'll get back on it.
Sure Dig in a little deeper.
Thank you, Be right back folks.
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Speaker 2 (26:18):
Welcome back folks.
Thanks for listening.
We really appreciate it.
We've got Stormin' Norman, theinventor of price per pound over
30 years ago Now, just so somefolks don't, I don't think this
is a new concept to them.
Basically, what the concept isis you use it on major
recoveries.
Is this something that's meantto be used for tow calls or this
(26:39):
is for recovery only?
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Absolutely not meant to use for tow calls or this is
for recovery only.
Is that correct?
Absolutely not.
If you, if you've got a youknow bread and butter, nose down
, trailer you back up, you popit up and go about your business
.
I mean, this is not, absolutelynot designed to be a normal tow
swap out or anything such asthat.
This is strictly for recoveriesthere, nothing.
It's a pricing mechanism that'sin your tool bag.
(27:06):
You do not walk your toolbox andpull out a combination wrench
every time.
Sometimes you use a ratchet,sometimes you use an open end In
your financial business.
It should be no different.
When you're pricing, sometimesyou charge over the mile,
sometimes you charge a simplejob by the hour, but on a
recovery, when you have a fairlystandard bread and butter job,
(27:30):
then you charge with a pound.
Now there may be instanceswhere you say I'm going to have
to do this one.
By now You've got a D9 stuck inthe mud someplace, you know, and
it's been buried for a month,traction locked up, you've got a
mess on your hands and you maytell them I'm going to charge
you by the hour because of, andexplain why, okay, but you never
(27:55):
, ever, and this has happenedbefore, and this is one of the
reasons that I ended up yearsago speaking to the DOT.
This is one of the reasons thatI ended up years ago speaking
to the DOT was that it was beingpromoted that you double dip.
You never, ever, charge someoneby the hour and price per pound
.
It's one or the other.
You use it for recovery.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Don't abuse the system or we will end up
inviting regulators on top of uswell, that's what's going on in
many states and we'll talkabout that more in a minute.
But so one of the things Iremember about it if I'm correct
me, if I'm wrong, 60,000 poundminimum.
This is for attracted, you know, loaded tractor, trailer type
work, and then you had a baserate and then an add-on.
(28:39):
I remember one of them was ifthe wheels were higher than the
roof, expand on that for me alittle Very, very similar.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So it kind of built that concept off of a flat rate
book for engine work okay, right.
So let's say you had a waterpump job and it was 3.8 hours
times your hourly rate, and thenyou had an add-on for an
alternate or for a airconditioning, you know so
there's different add-ons if thecomplexity of that job yes so
(29:12):
if it wasn't there, you know, asa customer you weren't paying
for a expanded water pump.
Job before you had was simpleand or the water pump and so we
look to use, used basically thesame concept where we had a
minimum of $60,000, I think itwas on a tractor, $30,000 on a
straight truck.
Okay, good point, good point.
Just going out there and doingthe job for nothing, okay.
(29:35):
But if it was fully loaded orif it was overloaded, it could
have been an oversized load.
Then the price went upaccordingly.
Then, as the complexityhappened, if it's raining
outside, inclement weather, okay, that's additional challenges.
If you're using airbags.
On top of that, if you're headdown, okay.
It's always more difficult,especially if you have a box van
(29:56):
, because you lose and those ofyou in the touring business know
this.
I mean you lose the roof, youlose the walls, you lose the
floor.
Okay, so it's not.
So when your head down and theweight is up there in the roof,
you've got a problem.
It's hard to work and you wantto do a good job.
You want to recover intact asmuch as possible, unless you're
(30:19):
in the risk program or somethingwhere you just get paid to
clear the road and we don'tworry about that uh.
But at the end of the day it ismore work and even if you're in
the risk program, uh, or tripprogram or some of these uh,
different highway programs, nowyou're having to bring out extra
equipment you know to to getthat job done and clear the road
, because they're looking moreat cleaning the road quickly as
(30:42):
opposed to saving the equipment.
There still involves moreequipment, so you add an add-on
to that for the additional work.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Well, that's a great analogy about the mechanic flat
rate.
If the vehicle has an airconditioner, it's a harder job
to do, so there's a little bitmore of an add-on.
That's a really good, cleardefinition.
And what was there?
Five, six, seven add-ons, if Iremember originally.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Something like that it's.
You know, try to keep it simple, and this was one of the
problems with the concept isthat everybody wants to make
things difficult.
It's the simplest things thatmake life easier, but I don't
want to use my human nature.
I remember reading years agoabout Thomas Edison.
(31:30):
When he hired his engineers, hewanted people to think outside
the box.
That would make things simple.
And so he would take them inthe lab and he'd say, okay, here
is a light bulb minus a socket.
I want you to tell me what thevolume is of this light bulb and
what would be contained in thislight bulb.
And he'd get some engineers topull out their slide rules and
(31:52):
calipers and measuring.
And you have a globe and atapered sphere.
It's a very complex shape totry to measure and determine
what the volume or the contentinside that semi-globe is, and
(32:13):
then they would just figure itand put it around and then you
would have an engineer thatwould come in and say, oh okay,
took a beaker of water, pouredit in and then took a graduated
beaker, poured it back, saidokay, there's your water.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Absolutely Making things simple is so much harder
than what it would appear to be,and the problem that we had
with the concept it was toosimple.
It sure has to be harder to dothis.
I don't want to spend eighthours building a massive head
recovery.
I want to do this.
Why do I want to spend eighthours building a massive head
recovery?
I want to live 30 minutes, youknow, and what we would do is we
would put a little write-up.
(32:50):
This is the scenario.
This is where we're at.
This is what we're dealing with.
It was hazmat.
This is the placard numbers.
This is the dangers that wefaced and that we have willingly
obligated ourselves, our lives,our health and our insurance
company to.
I want you to know that whenI'm charging you an additional
add-on for hazmat, that this iswhy I'm eliminating your risk,
(33:12):
I'm eliminating your blowbackfor a price.
And so when you do the write-upas to what's going on oh,
that's what the job is Iguarantee you the driver didn't
tell the company it was that bad.
He's trying to keep his job andthen you would have the actual
price per pound on that, listingout what details that you used,
(33:33):
and then you have your total,and it makes it very, very
simple, understandable, becausewhoever's the main candidate of
the trucking company, they haveto justify it to their
comptroller.
So give them something tojustify it.
They're just looking to see why, so help them.
You want your check.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
You're right.
Make it easy for themabsolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Because if things are simple and easy then it works
so much better.
Case in point I had anotherlittle side story here.
We live in South Alabama and sowe had a tornado, hurricane no,
yes, well, hurricane, hurricaneMichael and found out on the
(34:19):
last claim that I had, with somewater damage, that insurance
companies no longer use thissystem of go get two quotes and
we'll pay the most one.
They have a consortium ofinsurance companies to build
their software problem calledXactimate, and it's 10 to the
nth detail.
It's like we used to do withmeasuring every single snatch,
(34:44):
block, inch of cable out thereand everything else.
It's just to the minutia, andthere's so much stuff there that
a client or owner of a housewould look at and just get blown
away.
But you can have slow, mediumand high levels and if you're
not careful they can skim 10%,15% off at the top of what is
(35:07):
owed to you to properly repairyour place.
And so I thought, ah, this isthe way the game is getting
played now.
So I heard somebody that hadthat very expensive program,
interesting enough, as Imentioned, designed by the
insurance companies, surprise,surprise, and I had them do it,
and so when the adjuster walkedup, I had a stack of papers and
(35:30):
he said well, we need to do this.
I said here, it is right here.
And when he's, what about?
I said it's in there.
What about it's in there?
It's like ragu spaghetti sauce,it's all there.
And then I asked him.
I said would you like me togive you the electronic file
where everything is done for you?
Would you do that for me?
I would love to do that for you, sir, and in my mind, if he's
(35:54):
not having to type everything in, he is not going to be nickel
and diamond what my estimatorcame up with and he didn't.
That's what we want to do.
We want to make our pricingsimple, explainable, justifiable
and easy to explain for someonethat doesn't know a thing about
towing wreckers or even trucksthat sit in the office and are
(36:17):
being counted.
Let's make their job easy.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, that's a great point.
So what are you doing nowadays,normally?
We never did tell the folksthat, and being talented, let's
make their job easy.
Yeah, that's a great point.
So what are you doing nowadays,norm?
Speaker 3 (36:25):
We never did tell the folks that we are raising
German Shepherds and we havequite a few with veterans that
are alive today because they'reShepherds.
We give a 10% discount tomilitary and families with
disabilities.
I'd strongly suggest them totowers because they.
(36:45):
As I've dealt with PTSD withour disabled veterans and
whatnot, I've realized that inthe toying business there's so
much that we face that we neverget credit for.
You know, I remember stuff from20, 25 years ago and to me the
(37:06):
worst ones were burned jobs andkids.
You know, and I don't think weget enough credit for I don't
know if you want to call it PTSDor what we have to live with,
because we have a job to do.
You can't talk to people aboutit.
You know the brain matter isgray.
You feel like leaning over aditch sometimes and throwing up
(37:29):
when you pull a car off somebodythat's not pretty made up in a
casket, and I really wish thatpeople would respect us as true
first responders in the job wedo and the emotional price we
pay, because we pay an emotionalprice, and so I have seen
(37:50):
shepherds literally keep peoplealive, help them with their
mental state of mind and so on,and then, because of that, we
and a bunch of Karens back in2015, 2017, something like that.
We got involved in Montgomerylegislation and I've written I
don't know six, seven, eightlaws down in Alabama.
The last one I wrote is onethat is very prescient to the
(38:15):
Towers, and it was the JohnHubbard New Roller Act and again
, I, look at stuff, not how doeseverybody else do it, but how
can we make it better?
And particularly in Alabama,we're known as the bottom of the
heap.
We just do what other people do.
We don't think outside the box.
Most states, including Alabama,had to move over a lot.
(38:35):
Not enough teeth in it.
In most mills You're slappingthe wrist if you didn't slow
down and move over.
And most people don't slow downand move over and most people
don't even think about slowingdown.
They think about I have to moveover.
A young man, john Hubbard, wason his rollback changing the
(38:57):
fight tire for a lady and ayoung man from going to Isle of
man off of school there, lookedin the left mirror and went to
pull over, not realizing therewas a lady running 93 I think
the computer said miles an hour.
She swerved, hit the guardrail,came across and killed John In
his 20s.
He lost his life.
(39:19):
What a waste was.
What a waste and what a waste.
And a tragedy that never seemedto happen.
It didn't have to happen.
It's hard to see how late aswell as it should have, if you
walk out of court, a free woman,right, mother, devastated, yeah
we've seen that Nobody's doinganything.
Yeah, we've seen that time andtime again around the country,
(39:41):
it's you know.
So hopefully this will be amodel law, but basically what I
did is increase the fine.
If you get caught the thirdtime, you lose your license for
six months.
Then the real kicker was ifthere is physical injury, which
is you just basically hurtyourself serious injury, which
would be something that wouldtake the rest with your life or
(40:03):
death it goes from a Class Amisdemeanor all the way up to a
felony.
That's good Now and I don't wantto be in the middle of this
when you're doing that but why,again this goes back to?
Sometimes we have to demand, astollers, to be treated as
professionals, and if you'regoing to kill one of us, you
(40:24):
better pay the price.
That's right, and that's whatI've been doing behind the
scenes trying to fight forveterans, for disabled and for
tollers, because we deservebetter.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Oh, absolutely Well.
Thank you for what you do.
We really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time forthis podcast.
If people want to get in touchwith you, how can they reach out
to you?
Do you have an email form or?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
something Sure.
Stormandnormanhorton atgmailcom.
My 6201 triple S Shepherds ismy address.
We mostly raise DDR EastGermans, amazing dogs.
But like anything else yougotta be in charge.
(41:09):
But if you have any questions,feel free to reach out and talk
to me or contact me through Wesand Wes.
I appreciate you reaching outand appreciate what you're doing
for this industry to bring uskicking and screaming into
modern history.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Well, thank you, I've got to credit DJ Harrington for
dragging me into it first.
But yeah, we're thankful to behere and communicating with as
many people as we do on podcasts, and part of the reason I think
a lot of people listen is good,insightful interviews like you
just gave.
And part of the reason I thinka lot of people listen is good,
insightful interviews like youjust gave.
For anybody involved in themanagement level of telling, it
was a master course on differentsubjects.
(41:49):
Thank you, stormin.
We'll have you back on.
If you see anything pop up,reach out, but if not, we'll
have you back on and talk soon,okay?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
All right, Take care Wes have a good day.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thanks, dj, take us home buddy.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Thanks, wes, this has been a good one.
I am so glad we archive everyone of these things.
So if you're archiving and Ihope you do you listen to this
again.
When he brought up the name ofGary Coe, I loved it.
When he talked about the greatKevin Goodyear, from Alabama,
where, of course, stormy Normanlives Kevin Goodyear, from
(42:24):
Alabama, where, of course,stormy Norman lives.
But to remember Mark Anderson,my dear friend who has passed
away many years ago, it waswonderful.
Great tips Invest in the rightpeople and in your people.
So, without further ado, I wantto tell all of our listeners
I'll see you next week on theGreat Towing News Channel.
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