March 1, 2021 • 50 mins
"Believe in yourself." That's the message most of popular culture gives us, but it's not what the Bible teaches. Author Jen Oshman stops by to explain how we can go from stressed out self-promoters to joy filled children of God by the power of the gospel. Also in this episode: Jen tells us the weirdest food she ever tried while serving as a missionary overseas.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Guerra (00:07):
[MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (00:27):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, the surfing capital ofOhio.
Now those of you who are morekeenly aware of geographic
realities may be thinking,"Wheredoes one surf in Dayton, Ohio?
It's nowhere near the ocean.
It's not even close to LakeErie." Right you are, but we
(00:51):
Daytonians are nothing if notpersistent in the face of
geographic obstacles.
As it turns out, you can surf onrivers too, and in the past few
years, the local parksorganization has invested in the
creation of two different waterfeatures on the Great Miami
River downtown with separateentry points depending on one's
skill level.
The BBC reported last fall on anexplosion in interest due to the
(01:13):
current COVID pandemic, whichhas caused many who would have
traveled out of state to remainat home.
There is a thriving business insurfing lessons and one store
nearby reports that people arebuying paddleboards faster than
they can stock them.
My husband and I were able towitness a group of people
kayaking on one of the waterfeatures recently, and I can
confirm that they seemed atleast moderately pleased.
(01:35):
Huntington Beach had betterwatch its back.
Today, I'm going to be speakingwith Jen Oshman, author of the
book Enough about Me (01:41):
Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self.
When I first read the title, Ithought it sounded like a great
book for other people to read.
I kid, I kid.
I'm sure the world has certainlyhad enough of me.
Selfishness, self-obsession, andpride lay at the root of every
sin in one way or another.
They're also very depressingways to live your life.
(02:02):
However, Western society- bywhich I mean primarily Europe,
North America, and other partsof the world primarily
influenced by them- has put theindividual on the highest
pedestal, as opposed to Easternor other historic societies that
tend to put the family, clan, orsociety in that position.
While this has led to some veryimportant and beneficial
protections for individualfreedoms, it has also led to us
(02:24):
becoming increasinglyself-obsessed, dependent on our
own personal efforts for meaningand satisfaction in life.
Scripture, on the other hand,respects the individual but puts
God in first place.
In his Epistle to the Galatians,the Apostle Paul made one of the
strongest cases in Scripture forthe insufficiency of
self-effort.
He wrote that attempting toperfectly keep the commandments
(02:46):
of God- collectively known asthe Law- by your own power will
only result in failure.
Instead, we must submitourselves to Christ and find our
identity in him as our savior.
Here's what he says in one keypassage.
"I have been crucified withChrist and it is no longer I who
live, but Christ lives in me,and the life which I now live in
(03:08):
the flesh, I live by faith inthe son of God who loved me and
gave himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace ofGod, for if righteousness comes
through the law, then Christdied needlessly." Contrary to
our culture, which is constantlypreaching a message of
self-empowerment, the message ofthe Bible is that we can't do
it, but Christ has already doneit on our behalf.
(03:31):
That is incredibly humbling, butalso gloriously freeing.
Listen on to hear my discussionwith Jen about how we can start
focusing less on ourselves andmore on the God who has saved
us.
Jon Guerra (03:42):
[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]
Amy Mantravadi (03:52):
And I am here with Christian author Jen
Oshman.
Jen and her husband served formany years as missionaries,
first in Okinawa, Japan, andlater as church planters in the
Czech Republic- also known asCzechia- with Pioneers
International.
During that time, she was activein teaching, discipling, and
counseling women.
(04:13):
In 2015, their family thatincludes four daughters returned
to live in Colorado and planteda church, Redemption Parker,
with the Acts 29 network.
She and her husband bothremained in support roles with
Pioneers International.
Jen is also an avid writer,which is what brings her on the
program today.
Her articles have been shared byThe Gospel Coalition, Desiring
(04:34):
God, Risen Motherhood, and TimChallies, among others.
The past two years have been bigones for Jen as she launched a
podcast called All Things inwhich she applies Christian
truth to pressing issues of theday, and she also published her
first book, Enough about Me,which we'll be talking about
today.
You can find her on social mediaon Twitter and Instagram
(04:54):
@JenOshman and on FacebookJennifer.OwenOshman and her
website is www.
jenoshman.com.
Well, welcome to the program,Jen.
I'm so glad to have you on.
Jen Oshman (05:08):
Oh, thank you so much.
It's my joy.
Thanks for having me.
Amy Mantravadi (05:12):
Well, I mentioned that you spent time
serving with your family asmissionaries, and you've also
written about how you taughtyour daughters to eat whatever
food was put in front of them,because you were served a wide
variety of meals in your timeabroad and didn't want to offend
anyone.
All of this led me to wonder,what is the oddest food you've
(05:33):
ever had to eat during your timeoverseas?
Jen Oshman (05:36):
Oh my gosh.
That is a funny question.
Well, you're right.
I mean, having these kids inAsia and then taking them to
Europe, we have eaten all kindsof things.
I think the hardest thing for meto stomach and get down was once
in Japan I was served squid inkpasta, and the ink sauce is very
(05:58):
black and it dyes your teeth andyour tongue and your lips black,
and it kind of bleeds from yourlips onto your skin as well and
kind of spreads.
And so it's just visually sohard to eat something like that
and then sort of feel it and seeit out of the periphery of your
eye on your face.
I got it down, but it was noteasy.
Amy Mantravadi (06:21):
Yeah.
I've never had that, but I I'veheard a little bit about it, so
maybe someday I'll have to tryit.
I was also wondering if you hadever eaten uni while you were in
Japan.
Jen Oshman (06:34):
What is uni?
I don't know off the top of myhead.
Amy Mantravadi (06:36):
So it's...And you know, Okinawa is a little
different maybe than themainland of Japan as well, but
uni is the one thing that myhusband has tried that he said
he would never have again.
It is a sushi which is seaurchin.
So he had it-
Jen Oshman (06:55):
Yeah, I've seen it.
Amy Mantravadi (06:57):
He had it many years ago, and then about a year
or two ago, we were out to aJapanese restaurant with some
friends and he was persuaded totry it again, thinking maybe the
first time it had just gone bador something.
No, he still didn't like it.
Jen Oshman (07:14):
Wow.
Well, I respect him for tryingtwice cause I don't- I've never
tried it even once.
I definitely have seen it, butnever ordered it.
Amy Mantravadi (07:21):
Yeah, and I tried it, but I don't remember
anything about how it tasted.
Jen Oshman (07:27):
Well, maybe that's good.
Amy Mantravadi (07:28):
Yeah.
Anyway, I just thought thatwould be interesting place to
start off (07:32):
with the wonderful world of strange foods.
So diving in then to adiscussion about your book.
My own spiritual journey hasinvolved a long process of
realizing just how self-focusedI am in so many areas of my
life.
This problem is certainly notunique to me as selfishness and
(07:55):
pride lies at the heart reallyof all sin, but you point out in
your book that there are thingsin the West and Western culture
that tend to lead us to becomemore self-focused.
Speaking to those of your owngeneration, you write that,"You
and I were born into an age thattriumphed relativism and
individualism.
The culture of our childhoodswas decidedly
(08:17):
anti-authoritarian.
Rather than discovering theobjective truth, we were taught
to define our own subjectivetruth.
Unlike millennia of generationsbefore us, we set out not to
uncover the meaning of life, butto give our lives their own
meaning.
We've triumphed freedom as ourhighest good.
Individual freedom trumps allformer societal norms and
(08:38):
values.
It is ultimate." So as Imentioned, you've spent time as
a missionary in Japan and theCzech Republic, two cultures
that in their own ways are verydifferent from the United
States.
So do you think these tendenciestoward relativism individualism
and what I'll calllibertarianism-though not in the
(08:59):
sense of the political party-are unique to certain places in
the West or do they have anincreasing pull throughout the
whole world?
Jen Oshman (09:08):
Yeah, you know, it's funny having lived in Asia and
Europe- and obviously Asia iswide and diverse and so is
Europe- but what was sofascinating is there are some
striking similarities betweenthe Japanese culture and the
Czech culture, which we did notanticipate, but some just really
interesting things (09:24):
like for one neither people group ever wears
shoes in their home, or they alltake, no matter what, if you're
in Czech or Japan, you take offyour shoes.
When you enter any house or evenschool buildings and office
buildings, there are certainindoor shoes that you switch to
when you get to that building.
Also both cultures speak reallysoftly.
(09:45):
It's rude to speak really loudlyand they speak with their mouths
moving sort of minimally.
Whereas in the Czech Republic,they said Americans look like
they're speaking with an egg intheir mouth: a whole egg, you
know, without cracking it.
So anyway, that's a side note,that even though they are a
world apart and have totallydifferent histories, there's
some interesting similaritiesbetween the two, but another- to
(10:09):
get to your question- Anotherthing that's similar about both
Czech and Japanese cultures isthat they are- really the
foundation is the family and thefoundation is sort of the
ancestry and the history of thefamily.
Both people groups are largelyhomogenous, so strikingly
different from the United Stateswhere we are sort of a melting
(10:31):
pot, but in Japan you havealmost exclusively Japanese
citizens with Japanese ancestry,and same with the Czech
Republic.
Now in Czech, there's a littlebit more intermarriage with the
surrounding nations, but theCzech people are very Czech
historically, and this is asource of pride for both
countries.
They're very proud of theirheritage and proud of their
(10:53):
traditions as a culture and as apeople.
So in that way, they are sodifferent than the United
States.
We don't have much of a sharedidentity in terms of our history
and traditions, and we don'tintroduce ourselves as members
of a family or as people of acertain city or of a certain
village or of a certaintradition, whereas in Japan and
(11:14):
Czech you do.
It's very much part of yourintroduction of who you are,
even today, even as a youngperson, you are a family that
-your line, you know, who youcome from.
So I think while pride iscertainly pervasive, we see it
in the Garden and then we see itin every human heart- Since the
Fall pride and sin is pervasive.
That is our condition as fallenhumans.
(11:36):
What's different here in theUnited States is that we don't
have a shared identity or ashared ancestry, and especially
in more recent decades, we'vetried really hard to invent
ourselves and create our ownidentity, and identity politics
is increasingly coming to thesurface as an issue of not just
contention, but even violenceand huge disunity in our nation,
(11:57):
and I think that's becausepeople have worked so hard to
create their own identity, thatto threaten it or to question it
is very personal and veryhurtful and just sort of wounds
the soul of the person who said,"This is who I've decided I am.
This is my identity." Theyaren't couched in the safety and
the security of a family name ora family tradition or a family
(12:20):
line or the history and heritageof a people group.
They've had to inventthemselves, and the invented
self is very fragile, which islargely what Enough about Me is
about.
So I do think the U.S.
is unique in that way, andcertainly maybe not the one and
only- I can't say that we're theonly society in such a position
across the globe, but it's thesociety I know best, and I know
(12:40):
that we are fragile because ofthat.
Amy Mantravadi (12:43):
Yeah, and if you think about U.S.
History, it makes sense thatwe'd be that way because with
the exception, of course, NativeAmericans, everyone else here is
an immigrant at some point oranother.
And I in previous years workedon a study where I was
interviewing people all over thecountry for some social science
(13:08):
research that was being done,and one of the questions I had
to ask them was,"What is yourethnic identity or where is your
family from?" And it was veryinteresting the high percentage
of people who just said,"American," and really we were
looking for- American is not anethnicity.
We were looking for,"Myancestors are from Germany," or
(13:30):
even Africa or acontinent...anything.
And they just had no idea where-no sense of any history beyond
just their generation or the oneor two before that.
And as someone who myself hasspent a lot of time looking into
my family genealogy- as I'vefound out more and more about
(13:51):
where my family is from, in anodd way, I have started to see
myself less and less as Americanor just an individual here
creating my own identity andmuch more connected to a history
and a people that go back forhundreds of years.
But our status as an immigrantnation really has created in
(14:13):
many cases a rootless people,and you know, when you talk
about not being identified byyour family identity, I guess I
could see some good consequencesof that in that you don't have
as much of an aristocracy as youdid in old Europe where, people
in the upper classes looked downon people in the lower classes,
(14:37):
but it also gets rid of all thepositive parts of family
identity.
So that's interesting that youhave that observation.
I appreciate it because you havespent time living in other
cultures, so you have that- youcan bring the different ways
that people tend to think aboutquestions of identity.
Jen Oshman (14:54):
Yeah, I'm with you.
I think it's fascinating.
Amy Mantravadi (14:57):
You refer to God in your book as a story writer
and storyteller from whom wehave our existence.
He is the one who can,"...tellus about ourselves.
He has the answers." I'vethought about God in a very
similar way as the maker of acar and the commands of God are
akin to an instruction manualfor that car.
(15:20):
How do Christians who outwardlyacknowledge God as their creator
tend to forget that fact incertain ways and how does it
manifest in our behavior?
Jen Oshman (15:30):
Well, I know that I personally forget it a hundred
times a day in a hundreddifferent ways.
Again, going back to questionnumber one, pride is really at
the root of this.
The enemy asks Adam and Eve,"DidGod really say that?" And that's
sort of been the question of thesinful human heart ever since:
Did God really say that?
Did he really ask these thingsof me or did he really command
(15:51):
these things or can I be my ownGod?
Can I direct my own way?
And certainly I fall prey tothat, as I said, truly a hundred
times a day, as I seek to obeymyself and seek to please myself
above the God who made me andcreated me and saved me as well.
So I think that, especially inthis moment, and I know there's
(16:11):
nothing new under the sun, butin this moment of a very
consumer oriented American orWestern culture, we really do
seek to please ourselves.
We have so much security, somuch comfort, so many
opportunities to do exactly whatwe want to do and not endure
certain peril or certainhardships.
We want to cultivate our bestlives now.
(16:32):
It's so easy to forget thatJesus asked us to lay down our
lives, that he asked us to bethe least and he asked us to be
the last.
God really did say,"If you wantto follow me, you must bear your
cross.
You must lay down your life tofind it," and I think of
somebody like Mary when theangel appeared to her, she said,
"May it be to me as you havesaid," and just so willingly
(16:55):
gave her body, gave her life,gave her social status, her soon
to be married status- all theseways that she viewed herself and
others viewed her and laid thatdown and said,"Yes, may it be to
me as you have said." And Ithink that's something that I
personally and I think many ofus Christians in the West
struggle with.
We forget that the Lord hassaid,"Yes, go low, lay yourself
(17:17):
low," and we seek to serve andplease, and protect ourselves
rather than following Christ.
Amy Mantravadi (17:24):
Yeah, I think we could probably go on for a very
long time about all the waysthat we do that, and if you're
only forgetting this a hundredtimes a day, you're probably
doing better than me, cause I'mprobably at least at 200.
Because isn't that the source ofall sin?
Just our forgetfulness of God'sposition in relation to us.
(17:46):
So yeah, I appreciate youreflecting on that.
As a young person, I had theimpression that giving oneself
more and more to God meanthaving your identity erased in a
certain way or your personalitychanged.
I've come to see as I've gottenolder how untrue that is, and
you make a good point to thiseffect when you say,"To be our
(18:10):
true selves, to walk in our mostgenuine identity, does not come
from within.
Rather it comes from beingfueled by our relationship with
God and living for his glory ascreatures designed by him and
for him.
This is our best and truestself." Could you expand on that
a bit more?
How does finding our identity inChrist make us the truest
(18:31):
versions of ourselves?
Jen Oshman (18:32):
Sure.
Well, like we just said in thelast question, God is our story
writer.
God is the storyteller.
He writes us into his grandstory, so he is our Creator.
And if you even just look backto the creation account, you can
see right off the bat what agood and kind and loving God he
is, the way that creation is,the beauty that we can behold in
creation.
(18:53):
The fact that he created us inhis image for community and
worship, by him, for him,through him, to him as
Colossians says.
So he knows us best because hemade us.
He's the one who knit ustogether and we are by no means
then to think that we are sortof cookie cutter or that erases
anything.
I mean, Amy, if we just look atthe fish under the sea or the
(19:16):
stars in the sky or theintricacy of the human body,
what's inside each of us- thinkof the billions of people on the
planet and how each one hasdifferent eyes and different
hair and different personalities- physically, inwardly and
outwardly, their spirits, theirpersonalities- there is so much
diversity in creation.
Our God is immeasurablycreative, and so if we remember
(19:40):
and return to the truth that hemade us and we seek his face and
seek his will and seek what ishis grand story all about and
fit ourselves into that with hishelp and with his power, for his
pleasure and for his glory,that's when we come to know
ourselves the best, and it'swhen we rail against that where
we really miss out on the joyand peace and satisfaction that
(20:02):
he's intended for us to have inthis life.
Amy Mantravadi (20:07):
Yeah, I think that's a very good point.
And when we talk about having tolose ourselves in order to find
ourselves or laying down ourlives in order to follow Christ,
I think it's best to think aboutthat as what we're really losing
is our sinful tendencies anddesires being lost over time.
The good thing that God alwaysintended us to be, like you
(20:29):
said, is coming out, and youmake a good point that he wants
a diversity of people.
He doesn't want us to all becookie cutters, so I appreciate
you talking about that.
One good point you make in yourbook is that,"Any deviation from
biblical Christianity can bedetected when we are told to
(20:50):
turn our practices and habitsinward on ourselves rather than
outward on our marvelousSavior." Two manifestations of
this that you mention are theway we think about"quiet time"
and the content of our worshipsongs.
Could you discuss that a bit,and are there any more examples
that you've seen?
Jen Oshman (21:09):
Yeah, sure.
So again, I've said this and Ihate to be Debbie Downer about
it, but we live in such aconsumeristic oriented culture.
We have this sort of consumerChristianity.
If we haven't rejected churchaltogether or rejected Jesus
Christ altogether, and we've- wewant to follow him, or we want
to join a Christian church inmany ways, it's with a
(21:31):
consumeristic mentality.
Which one fits me the best?
Which one do I enjoy the best?
Which one has the best coffee orthe best kids' programs?
Or where can I go to consumerather than where can I go to
maybe contribute or to covenantwith the other people in the
community and pursue thegoodness that is the family of
God we tend to consume.
And once you see it, it's hardnot to see it everywhere.
(21:53):
And I know it's not everywhere,but you think of just the large
institutions- and I have nothingagainst large churches.
I'm not saying that by anymeans, so please don't mishear
me, but just these engines thatsort of have to keep themselves
going.
And the goal then is maybenumbers and growth so that the
engine can keep going, and it iseverywhere.
It's on our home decor, it's inour Instagram and it's in our
(22:16):
own souls, this desire to serveourselves.
And so it can be hard to see, orit could be hard to pick up on
that idol when you worship it,but I do think it comes out in
things like your personal quiettime.
Certainly our relationship withour Maker and Savior is meant to
be personal.
Certainly our salvation ispersonal.
We must surrender our unique andpersonal selves over to our
(22:39):
Lord.
However, the Christian life wasnever meant to be private.
Personal in some ways, yes, butnot private.
We were created for community.
As we see in the Garden of Eden,we were created to be a part: to
be one more link in a eternalgenealogy.
(23:00):
There's so many genealogies injust the Book of Genesis alone,
but throughout all of scripture.
And we're part of that genealogyand we are designed to flourish
corporately, not flourishindividually.
And so I think in the AmericanWest especially, we have really
forgotten that crucial and Ithink very central component of
(23:20):
our faith is that we werecreated for community, not for
an individual pursuit.
And that has been to ourdetriment, our great detriment.
It has been- We've just beenreally hurt ourselves in the
process.
And so you see it like in yourquestion, and as I say in the
book, you see it in worshipsongs too, that make priority
your personal feelings ratherthan the exaltation and goodness
(23:42):
of God, or maybe a corporatehistory- a corporate recitation
of God's goodness to the wholecommunity.
We do tend to just be verypersonal or very private rather
than corporate, and I don'tbelieve that's the Lord's design
and I don't think it's for ourgood.
Amy Mantravadi (23:58):
Yeah.
You made me think about some ofthe observations that have
occurred over the past year withthe coronavirus pandemic and so
many people going to virtualstreaming of church services
rather than going in person onmany occasions, because they're
legally barred from going inperson for a time, or they have
(24:19):
very real concerns for theirhealth.
And we've been watchingstreaming of church a lot more
than going in person, but I dofeel that we lose something when
we're just watching on the TV.
But there's been a lot ofconcern that some of the people
who are watching at home,they'll never come back when the
churches reopen (24:41):
they'll just check out of church entirely.
But what I'm seeing from peoplewho seem to be really deep in
their faith is that they arereally feeling a loss over the
course of this year.
They aren't feeling like,"Oh,it's just as good to watch on
TV," because they understandwhat it is to be in that vibrant
(25:02):
community that God has intendedwhere we are walking together in
the Christian life and not juston our own.
Because even before the pandemichappened, you would hear about
these virtual reality churchesor whatever, and we all kind of-
a lot of us made fun of it.
"That's not really church! It'snot the same thing!" But now
it's almost like God has givenus all this test of all of a
(25:25):
sudden being starved of some ofthat community, and we're
finding lots of different waysto try to continue the community
despite the restrictions, butit's given me such an
appreciation for the fewoccasions we have gone in
person.
It's just so special.
And when we finally get back tomore of a normal where we're
(25:49):
going every week- I mean, ourson was born the month before
everything shut down, so hereally has no concept- I mean,
he's too young to have much of aconcept of anything, but he's
still- he doesn't have a conceptthat every week we go to church.
He thinks every week we godownstairs and sit and watch
church, which is good, and we dolots of things too every day.
(26:11):
We're reading scripture andpraying with him, doing
different things, but it will bedifferent for him when he's
there with his church family.
So I just think this past yearhas given such a perfect example
of what you're talking about,that we can't just have our own
little church with our Bible andour mug of coffee on a Sunday
morning, sitting on our porch.
(26:31):
You know, it's not the same.
It's not what God intended forus.
And when we are together, thatdrives us away from that purely
consumer mindset.
We're forced to be part of abody, and that is what God
intended for us.
So I think that's just a greatpoint that you have.
Our culture loves the message,"Believe in yourself," and
(26:55):
various variations on that.
As a mother of a small child, Isee it in many children's books.
It's in so many American films.
We seem to accept this platitudewith little consideration, and
yet you point out that thismessage is in large part
antithetical to Christianteaching.
You write,"To believe in oneselfis to refuse grace.
(27:19):
It is to say to the God who madeyou,'I'm doing fine on my own.
Thank you very much.' It justrefuse the Lord's unconditional
love, forgiveness andempowerment.
But when we confess that we arenot enough, we invite all of
that in.
Confession leads to joy." How dowe draw a line as Christians
(27:39):
between appropriateself-confidence and harmful
pride that places trust insomething other than God?
Jen Oshman (27:48):
Man, that is a good question, because I feel like
those two things can look reallyidentical.
The sort of outward appearanceof two different hearts can be
very similar, and I thinksometimes we can even not know
ourselves- from which foundationwe are operating- and it's
something we constantly need tobe asking ourselves about.
But really the premise andmessage of the whole book is
(28:12):
that first sentence that youread: to believe in oneself is
to refuse grace.
And that's my hope with the bookEnough about Me is that those
who read it would justexperience total relief.
It's so exhausting to believe inyourself, to feel like,"I have
got to invent myself.
I have got to pull myself up bymy bootstraps and I've got to
make this happen.
It's all on me." And that's howwe were raised at least in a
(28:36):
secular setting, and I think alot of times even in the church
setting, maybe by teachers andparents who did not realize that
that's actually what they werecommunicating.
So this exhaustion, this burntout experience that a lot of us
have is the result of,"I can doit myself." And so my hope is
that the reality check that,"No,actually you can't do it
(28:58):
yourself," is a message of sweetrelief.
And you make a good point withyour question: there is an
appropriate self-confidence,absolutely.
We must remember there is now nocondemnation for those of us who
are in Christ Jesus.
To be beloved and chosen andholy and set apart by the God of
the universe is such a greatgift, and when we operate from
(29:20):
the foundation of that truth,that,"I am his.
He will never leave me orforsake me.
I can never be snatched out ofthe Father's hands.
I belong to him," then weoperate from a place of wanting
to please him and steward thelife that he's given us.
It's a stewardship mindsetrather than a self help mindset.
It's an acknowledgement (29:40):
my life and breath and all that I have
comes from the hand of asovereign and good God.
He ordained my life and thecircumstances and my gifts and
abilities, as well as myshortcomings and the hard things
in my community or my settingfor his good purposes.
And so I can wake up withconfidence every day that God is
(30:01):
God and he's going to accomplishwhat he wills in my life.
And when we move from thatperspective rather than an"I can
do it myself" perspective, wehave nothing but hope, we have
nothing but encouragement andpower because we know that God
is in charge and his will cannotbe thwarted, and he's pleased
with us because when he looks atus, he sees his Son and his
Son's righteousness.
(30:22):
And so it's an incrediblyfreeing shift in the way that we
think.
And so really just to get backto your question, how do we draw
that line?
I think it depends on who wetrust.
Do we trust ourselves or do wetrust the Lord?
Amy Mantravadi (30:37):
Yeah.
One of the pastors at my churchis very fond of putting the sort
of secular gospel in terms ofthe phrase,"Do more, try
harder," which is really theopposite of the gospel.
And yet I think in our culturewith the sort of self-reliance,
(30:59):
rugged individualism, and insome ways it comes a little bit
from capitalism, the mindsetthat if you just work hard
enough, you can succeed in theeconomy or you can succeed in
life.
And regardless of where we areon the political spectrum, I
think we all to a certain extentbuy into the idea of
meritocracy.
"We have it within ourselves.
(31:20):
We just need to pull ourselvesup by our bootstraps." And on
the one hand I can say, I don'thave nearly enough faith to
believe in myself.
I know myself too well tobelieve in myself.
And yet again, there areprobably a hundred times a day
where without even thinkingabout it, I've falled into that
"Do more, try harder" mindset.
(31:41):
I have a almost one-year-oldson, and during the day I'm
saying,"Okay, did I do this withhim?
Did I do that?
Did I get this done?
Did I get that done?
Did I have time to work on thepodcast?
Did I have..." I judge my daybased on,"How much productivity
did I get?
How many things did I check offon the list?" And in a certain
way, I have to have a list tokeep myself sane and not forget
(32:01):
everything, because my memorywent completely kaput after I
had a baby.
But on the other hand, that isdefinitely falling back into
that idea that believing inyourself- that if I just keep
trying harder, if I just get up30 minutes earlier and do one
thing more in the day, thatit'll all be okay.
So I really appreciate dthat youtalked a lot about that in your
(32:25):
book, especially because yourbook is targeted a lot to people
like me who are women withchildren, or just trying to
juggle all the things here inAmerican life.
And I think that's something wecan fall into a lot, so I really
appreciate you addressing that.
Jen Oshman (32:42):
Yeah, I'm preaching to myself, Amy.
I have to say that to myself allthe time.
Amy Mantravadi (32:46):
Yeah.
So another thing our culture isabsolutely obsessed with is the
notion of choice and the beliefthat more choices equals greater
freedom.
To a certain extent, that'strue, but you also point out
that we can end up becoming aslave to our own choices, unable
to decide, because we thinkeverything hinges on our own
(33:08):
autonomy.
How should Christians thinkabout our choices differently
than the population in general?
This is something you address inyour book, but maybe you could
just give us a little preview ora little snippet now.
Jen Oshman (33:20):
Sure.
Yeah.
I think in the book I share howafter living overseas for about
15 years and coming back andtrying to do the grocery
shopping, it was just absolutelyoverwhelming.
We've lived back in the U.S.
For five years now, and I stillfind it almost debilitating to
go into the grocery storebecause there are so many
choices.
It's like analysis paralysis.
There's too many things to thinkabout.
(33:41):
And we do get into that mindsetas Americans.
"Well, as long as I curate thebest education, the best friends
group, the best wardrobe, thebest weekend plans and
retirement plans and vacationplans and do just the right
thing, and of course curate itfor online consumption in social
media, I can create my best lifenow!" And that's just not true.
(34:04):
We can operate that way for solong, but inevitably will run up
against something, and we'll bereminded that in fact, we are
finite and frail and fallenhuman beings and we need the
Lord and we need his help.
And so, again, not to be abroken record, but I hope that
that is a freeing message (34:21):
that you are not the sum of your
choices, your good ones or yourbad ones.
There's nothing that you or Ican do to make God love us more
or make God love us less, and heis indeed sovereign, and he does
look upon you and me with loveand grace if we are in Christ
Jesus, and he wants to help usand to fill us and to move us
(34:43):
through our days according tohis will.
And so my desire is thatChristians would look at choices
again with that sort ofstewardship mentality like,
"Lord, what would you have medo?" We tend to look at life
with,"Well, what can I get awaywith?" And I think a better
question is,"Well, how should Ihonor the Lord?
What has he appointed for thismoment?
What would be by him and for himand through him, into him in
(35:05):
this moment?" And then there'sfreedom in that because I
realize I'm not the sum of mychoices.
If I really screw this up, it'sgoing to be okay because Jesus
has redeemed me and he's notletting go of me and he will
help me, whatever comes.
So let's not be overwhelmed byour choices and feel like,"It is
all on me," because that's justnot true.
Let's walk in freedom that ourGod is good and he is ready to
(35:27):
help us.
Amy Mantravadi (35:29):
You know, so much of what you're saying
reminds me of the first questionand answer in the Heidelberg
Catechism, which asks,"Q.
What is your only comfort inlife and in death?
A.
That I am not my own, but belongbody and soul...to my faithful
Savior, Jesus Christ." And I'veso often observed that if you're
(35:50):
not in Christ or if you thinkyou are and you're not, or if
you're completely secular,that's not comforting at all to
think that you belong to Christ: that you're not completely in (35:56):
undefined
control of everything, but theBible is pretty clear that all
of us are being influenced andcontrolled by something.
Paul says we're either slaves tosin or we're slaves to
righteousness, and the Biblesays that true freedom is to
(36:18):
serve Jesus Christ rather thanserving yourself or the devil or
whatever you're worshiping.
So I think that sometimes we'veraised freedom up to be the most
valuable virtue in our society,but freedom is only as valuable
as what you use it for, and whatkind of freedom are we talking
(36:40):
about?
We just like the word freedom somuch that we don't think too
much about,"What does thatactually mean?" and the fact
that none of us are really free.
And sometimes all of a sudden,even though we have the best
technology and medicine andeverything that we've ever had
in human history, there can be avirus that hits us that
completely throws everything outof whack, and suddenly none of
(37:02):
us are in control anymore.
And so again, our currentsituation is a reminder to us of
what you're talking about, andso I really appreciate that.
Circling back to some things wetalked about, you have a quote
in your book,"We tend to believethat our worth is equal to what
we can produce and consume.
We look to ourselves, To theproducts we choose and buy, to
(37:25):
the methods we choose to liveby, to the things we can
produce, and to the lifestylechoices we make for our value
and identity." This tendency ofour society to value people in
terms of production and definethem in terms of consumption has
led to all sorts of negativeconsequences, not the least of
(37:45):
which is the dehumanization ofanyone who's not seen to
"contribute anything tosociety." And unfortunately the
same tendency is also prevalentwithin the Church, if in
slightly different ways.
How does our mindset ofproduction and consumption
specifically affect the way wethink about success in Christian
(38:07):
ministry or in the Christianlife?
Jen Oshman (38:10):
Yeah, you know, this issue is like insidious and it's
absolutely evil.
I believe it's what drives theabortion industry.
It's what drives physicianassisted suicide.
It's what's driving so muchdepression and despair.
It's just this idea that if youcan't contribute to society,
then your life doesn't havemeaning.
If you can't do somethinguseful, if you are less than
(38:33):
able, somehow then life is lessthan worthy, and it's so
grievous, and it's so contraryto our God who says that when we
are weak, he is strong.
So really it's- as I said, it'sjust pervasive.
And we do see it in theChristian life and in the
Christian Church as well, and itgrieves me and I see it in my
own heart.
I am not pointing fingers asmuch as I am just acknowledging
(38:56):
this in myself- is that we wantto see,"What can I get done
today?
What can I produce?
How many followers can I have?
How many listeners can I have?
How many books can I sell?
How many people will come to mychurch?
If I'm a missionary, how manypeople will get converted?
How many times am I sharing thegospel?" We tend to be visually
oriented, you know,"What can Isee?
And then what can I count?" Wewant to measure the things that
(39:19):
we see.
And so I do think it's a hugeissue inside our churches and
inside our own hearts.
What we determine to be good andfaithful ministry, we measure
with our finite limited humanminds, but that is not the mind
of God.
The Lord does not deem successwith big numbers.
(39:39):
I don't mean to paint such abroad brush stroke as to say
there aren't some useful thingsabout that.
There are.
With God's help and the HolySpirit's leading it's okay and
good and helpful sometimes tolook at those measurements.
I don't mean to say they're allawful, but if you just look at
the life of Christ and who hedrew near to, it was the sick
(40:01):
and the outcast and the poor andthe lowly.
This is who Jesus drew near to.
This is who he had compassionon.
This is who he came to save, andso if we wouldn't call that
fruitful ministry, how dare wedeem what we're doing now as
fruitful.
So I think there's thisprinciple that I have that has
(40:21):
been really helpful, whether onthe mission field or whether
here in the U.S.
as a church planter, or as nowan author, and it's that God
calls me to be faithful.
He's asked a certain task of me.
He's placed something in my lifeand asked me to do it.
So my job is to be faithful, buthis role is to produce the
fruit.
(40:42):
I cannot produce fruit.
It's God who grows the fruit iswhat Paul says, and so that
fruit is not really my business.
You know, the numbers aren'treally my business.
My business is being faithfuland obedient to my Lord and
honoring him, but what he wantsto do with my faithfulness is up
to him.
And it might be to have a teenychurch or to sell no books or to
be rejected and persecuted.
(41:03):
That might be his will, andthat's the fruit that he's
growing, and that's a blessing,and we ought to praise him and
thank him for that as well.
So my encouragement to people,especially if they feel
paralyzed, like,"What should Ido?
What if nobody listens, or whatshould I do if nobody reads?"
Well, that's okay.
That's not our business.
That's God's business.
Go ahead and obey him and lethim determine what the outcome
(41:25):
will be.
Amy Mantravadi (41:27):
And that's such a temptation as a writer, or a
pastor, or a missionary to thinkthat you have to protect your
platform, I guess you could say.
"Because no one listened to meif I don't have this institution
backing me, or if I don't haveenough followers on Twitter or
(41:47):
enough..." And we think,"Well,it's good for people to hear
what I have to say, so I have tokeep promoting it, perpetuating
that in some way." And sometimeswe need to stop and ask,"Are we
just telling people what theywant to hear?
Are we telling them what Godreally needs them to hear?"
Because if you look in the Bibleat the prophets, a lot of times
(42:10):
when they told people what Godwanted them to hear, they didn't
get a lot of fans.
And you can look at Jesus andsay, he actually did have a lot
of people who came to listen tohim.
He was somewhat of a celebrityin his own day, but when push
came to shove, a lot of thosepeople rejected him and he was
willing to give up the things ofthis world to save us, and as a
(42:35):
result of that, God broughtabout this blessing where he
said, the Father is going tobring everyone to me that the
Father has for me.
And you definitely see that it'sGod who's bringing the fruit.
And sometimes we're not going tosee it in our lifetime.
You think about all those OldTestament patriarchs who had to
see the promises from afar, andthey were faithful for many
(42:57):
years and never saw the Christcome, but God does keep his
promises.
So it's useful to look atnumbers and pay attention to
them, because sometimes that canpoint to something that is
problematic.
But I do think it's a problemthat most of the time, if you
ask people,"Name some reallysuccessful pastors," they're
probably going to all namepeople with either huge
(43:20):
churches, or a lot of publishedbooks and sold books, or who
appear at a lot of conferences,and some of those pastors
certainly have been verysuccessful for the Lord and
being very faithful to him, buthow many people would say,"Well,
my pastor of this church with 50people is the person who is very
successful"?
(43:40):
No, we don't think about it thatway.
So I definitely think you make agood point there, and certainly
as you say, the most nefariousway we see it is in just
completely devaluing certainhuman lives.
So that's the worst thing thatcomes about as a result of it,
but in a lot of small ways, Ithink we buy into some of that
(44:01):
reasoning as well.
You have a quote in your bookoriginally from Andrew Delbanco
that,"Pride is the enemy ofhope." I thought that was an
interesting way of puttingthings.
Can you unpack it?
Jen Oshman (44:16):
Yeah.
I love that quote too, which isdefinitely why I borrowed it to
stick in my book.
"Pride is the enemy of hope." Sowhen we are prideful, when we
think,"I can do it myself," whenwe have total self-confidence
and we count on ourselves- atthe end of the day, I think when
we're totally honest, we know weare limited.
You know, that's sort of whatburnout is: we know we actually
(44:38):
don't have what it takes to getthe job done.
We know ourselves better thananybody else.
We know our secrets and our sinand our shortcomings better than
anybody else, and we know howtired we get and we know how
incapable we are.
So when we keep shoving thattruth away and say,"No, no, no,
I can do it.
I can do it.
I can do it," discouragementrises.
(44:59):
But when we just look in themirror and go,"You know what,
it's totally true.
I can't do it," that's when hopecomes rushing in.
It's just that surrender.
It's that on the floor momentthat I talk about in the book.
It's hitting rock bottom.
You know, we all have to hitrock bottom once, especially to
be saved, but then over and overa hundred times a day, when we
(45:20):
say,"I've fallen again, Lord, Iblew it again.
These people in my life, thisproject, whatever you've given
me, I've blown it again.
I can't do it myself.
Please help me." There's nothingmore hopeful in this life than
calling on the Lord and saying,"Please help me," and my hope is
that this book will help peopledo that- is just cry out,"I
(45:40):
can't do it.
Please help me." That's sohopeful.
Amy Mantravadi (45:44):
It reminds me of the story of Martin Luther and
how he for many years tried sohard to become righteous through
self-effort and constantlyconfessing his sins to the point
that person he was confessing tois like,"You really need to be a
little easier on yourself.
This is getting insane." Youknow, and they were monks, so if
(46:08):
they thought that he was beingtoo hard on himself, he was
being really hard.
And he said- I can't give you anexact quote, but in his writing
he said he got to the pointwhere he was just in complete
despair, and that was when Godwas able to reach him: when his
heart was open to the gospelthat it wasn't through
self-effort.
And that was when he surrenderedthat pride of trying to earn his
(46:31):
salvation, essentially, so hewas able to actually experience
the freedom of salvation and thehope that that brought him.
And he was in very deepdepression and was relieved from
a lot of that as a result.
So I think that's just a goodway to sum up your book, and I
would very much encourage peopleto read your book Enough about
(46:52):
Me and to listen to yourpodcasts, but just here at the
end, I'm wondering- you'reworking on a new book and I
think you were trying to justcomplete the manuscript before
we recorded it.
So could you give just a littlesneak peek of what that will be
about?
Jen Oshman (47:08):
Yeah, sure.
I just turned in the manuscripton Monday also.
This book will be published byCrossway again, and it will come
out...
Amy Mantravadi (47:15):
Okay.
I'm giving you a round ofapplause for completing your
manuscript.
That's great.
I commiserate with you on thehard work and congratulate you
on a job well done.
Jen Oshman (47:25):
Thank you so much.
I know you know, like writingand podcasting, these things are
done from the isolation of ourown homes and it's fun sometimes
to see like-minded friends whoare co-laboring with you from
afar and cheer each other on, sothank you.
That's really sweet of you.
But yeah, actually this secondbook sort of came out of the
first book.
So in the first book I critiquethe age of self and just really
(47:48):
wanting to draw the reader toremember who God is and remember
who they belong to, and thesecond book I do that as well,
but I actually- so if you everheard my podcast, you know that
I do love to do sort of culturalcritique.
I love the news.
I love the headlines.
I want to know what's going on,and then I want to view them
through the lens of scripture.
And so with the second book I dothat.
(48:08):
It's called So Much More, and Iactually look at what it's sort
of been like to be a girl and awoman since the sexual
revolution, and I try to uncoveror expose five idols of our age
and show the reader therottenness that is underneath
the sort of glittery lifepromising facade, and just
(48:29):
showing how these idols haveover promised but
under-delivered, and we weremade for so much more and all
that we have in Christ.
What he has for us- all that hehas is ours, how he's created us
and made us and the victory thathe has for us.
So my hope is to just exposethese idols and then exalt Jesus
and woo the reader to him ratherthan to the false gods of our
(48:49):
age.
Amy Mantravadi (48:50):
Well, thanks for that little preview, and that's
something to look forward tomaybe coming out later this
year, perhaps, sometime?
Jen Oshman (48:57):
Early 2022.
Yeah, it'll be a year from now.
Amy Mantravadi (48:57):
Hey, we might even be like somewhat past the
pandemic by then.
You never know.
Jen Oshman (49:07):
Oh, L ord willing!
Amy Mantravadi (49:08):
It'd be wonderful.
Then you could have- I don'tknow, people might have actual
book tours or book releaseparties again.
I don't know.
It could be great.
Well, thank you Jen so much fortalking to me today and I really
enjoyed our conversation.
Jen Oshman (49:23):
Thank you so much, Amy too.
It's been really sweet for me aswell.
Jon Guerra (49:51):
[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that
it will roll in abundance, andthat you're building a city
where we arrive as immigrants,and you call us citizens, and
you welcome as children home.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (49:54):
It was an honor to interview Jen about her book
Enough about Me (49:57):
Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self, which is
published by Crossway.
As always, the music today isthe song"Citizens" by John
Guerra, who graciously allows itto be used for this podcast.
Wherever you are, I hope thatyou experience a wonderful week
in which you grow in theknowledge of our Lord and live
for his glory.
As Paul concluded in his letterto the Galatians,"The grace of
(50:19):
our Lord Jesus Christ be withyour spirit, brothers and
sisters." Amen.
Come Lord Jesus.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (50:28):
[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always
living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
How through prizes handcuffs cancome in all sizes, love hasn't
million disguises, but winningis simply not one[MUSIC STOPS]
[MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (00:27):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, the surfing capital ofOhio.
Now those of you who are morekeenly aware of geographic
realities may be thinking,"Wheredoes one surf in Dayton, Ohio?
It's nowhere near the ocean.
It's not even close to LakeErie." Right you are, but we
(00:51):
Daytonians are nothing if notpersistent in the face of
geographic obstacles.
As it turns out, you can surf onrivers too, and in the past few
years, the local parksorganization has invested in the
creation of two different waterfeatures on the Great Miami
River downtown with separateentry points depending on one's
skill level.
The BBC reported last fall on anexplosion in interest due to the
(01:13):
current COVID pandemic, whichhas caused many who would have
traveled out of state to remainat home.
There is a thriving business insurfing lessons and one store
nearby reports that people arebuying paddleboards faster than
they can stock them.
My husband and I were able towitness a group of people
kayaking on one of the waterfeatures recently, and I can
confirm that they seemed atleast moderately pleased.
(01:35):
Huntington Beach had betterwatch its back.
Today, I'm going to be speakingwith Jen Oshman, author of the
book Enough about Me (01:41):
Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self.
When I first read the title, Ithought it sounded like a great
book for other people to read.
I kid, I kid.
I'm sure the world has certainlyhad enough of me.
Selfishness, self-obsession, andpride lay at the root of every
sin in one way or another.
They're also very depressingways to live your life.
(02:02):
However, Western society- bywhich I mean primarily Europe,
North America, and other partsof the world primarily
influenced by them- has put theindividual on the highest
pedestal, as opposed to Easternor other historic societies that
tend to put the family, clan, orsociety in that position.
While this has led to some veryimportant and beneficial
protections for individualfreedoms, it has also led to us
(02:24):
becoming increasinglyself-obsessed, dependent on our
own personal efforts for meaningand satisfaction in life.
Scripture, on the other hand,respects the individual but puts
God in first place.
In his Epistle to the Galatians,the Apostle Paul made one of the
strongest cases in Scripture forthe insufficiency of
self-effort.
He wrote that attempting toperfectly keep the commandments
(02:46):
of God- collectively known asthe Law- by your own power will
only result in failure.
Instead, we must submitourselves to Christ and find our
identity in him as our savior.
Here's what he says in one keypassage.
"I have been crucified withChrist and it is no longer I who
live, but Christ lives in me,and the life which I now live in
(03:08):
the flesh, I live by faith inthe son of God who loved me and
gave himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace ofGod, for if righteousness comes
through the law, then Christdied needlessly." Contrary to
our culture, which is constantlypreaching a message of
self-empowerment, the message ofthe Bible is that we can't do
it, but Christ has already doneit on our behalf.
(03:31):
That is incredibly humbling, butalso gloriously freeing.
Listen on to hear my discussionwith Jen about how we can start
focusing less on ourselves andmore on the God who has saved
us.
Jon Guerra (03:42):
[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]
Amy Mantravadi (03:52):
And I am here with Christian author Jen
Oshman.
Jen and her husband served formany years as missionaries,
first in Okinawa, Japan, andlater as church planters in the
Czech Republic- also known asCzechia- with Pioneers
International.
During that time, she was activein teaching, discipling, and
counseling women.
(04:13):
In 2015, their family thatincludes four daughters returned
to live in Colorado and planteda church, Redemption Parker,
with the Acts 29 network.
She and her husband bothremained in support roles with
Pioneers International.
Jen is also an avid writer,which is what brings her on the
program today.
Her articles have been shared byThe Gospel Coalition, Desiring
(04:34):
God, Risen Motherhood, and TimChallies, among others.
The past two years have been bigones for Jen as she launched a
podcast called All Things inwhich she applies Christian
truth to pressing issues of theday, and she also published her
first book, Enough about Me,which we'll be talking about
today.
You can find her on social mediaon Twitter and Instagram
(04:54):
@JenOshman and on FacebookJennifer.OwenOshman and her
website is www.
jenoshman.com.
Well, welcome to the program,Jen.
I'm so glad to have you on.
Jen Oshman (05:08):
Oh, thank you so much.
It's my joy.
Thanks for having me.
Amy Mantravadi (05:12):
Well, I mentioned that you spent time
serving with your family asmissionaries, and you've also
written about how you taughtyour daughters to eat whatever
food was put in front of them,because you were served a wide
variety of meals in your timeabroad and didn't want to offend
anyone.
All of this led me to wonder,what is the oddest food you've
(05:33):
ever had to eat during your timeoverseas?
Jen Oshman (05:36):
Oh my gosh.
That is a funny question.
Well, you're right.
I mean, having these kids inAsia and then taking them to
Europe, we have eaten all kindsof things.
I think the hardest thing for meto stomach and get down was once
in Japan I was served squid inkpasta, and the ink sauce is very
(05:58):
black and it dyes your teeth andyour tongue and your lips black,
and it kind of bleeds from yourlips onto your skin as well and
kind of spreads.
And so it's just visually sohard to eat something like that
and then sort of feel it and seeit out of the periphery of your
eye on your face.
I got it down, but it was noteasy.
Amy Mantravadi (06:21):
Yeah.
I've never had that, but I I'veheard a little bit about it, so
maybe someday I'll have to tryit.
I was also wondering if you hadever eaten uni while you were in
Japan.
Jen Oshman (06:34):
What is uni?
I don't know off the top of myhead.
Amy Mantravadi (06:36):
So it's...And you know, Okinawa is a little
different maybe than themainland of Japan as well, but
uni is the one thing that myhusband has tried that he said
he would never have again.
It is a sushi which is seaurchin.
So he had it-
Jen Oshman (06:55):
Yeah, I've seen it.
Amy Mantravadi (06:57):
He had it many years ago, and then about a year
or two ago, we were out to aJapanese restaurant with some
friends and he was persuaded totry it again, thinking maybe the
first time it had just gone bador something.
No, he still didn't like it.
Jen Oshman (07:14):
Wow.
Well, I respect him for tryingtwice cause I don't- I've never
tried it even once.
I definitely have seen it, butnever ordered it.
Amy Mantravadi (07:21):
Yeah, and I tried it, but I don't remember
anything about how it tasted.
Jen Oshman (07:27):
Well, maybe that's good.
Amy Mantravadi (07:28):
Yeah.
Anyway, I just thought thatwould be interesting place to
start off (07:32):
with the wonderful world of strange foods.
So diving in then to adiscussion about your book.
My own spiritual journey hasinvolved a long process of
realizing just how self-focusedI am in so many areas of my
life.
This problem is certainly notunique to me as selfishness and
(07:55):
pride lies at the heart reallyof all sin, but you point out in
your book that there are thingsin the West and Western culture
that tend to lead us to becomemore self-focused.
Speaking to those of your owngeneration, you write that,"You
and I were born into an age thattriumphed relativism and
individualism.
The culture of our childhoodswas decidedly
(08:17):
anti-authoritarian.
Rather than discovering theobjective truth, we were taught
to define our own subjectivetruth.
Unlike millennia of generationsbefore us, we set out not to
uncover the meaning of life, butto give our lives their own
meaning.
We've triumphed freedom as ourhighest good.
Individual freedom trumps allformer societal norms and
(08:38):
values.
It is ultimate." So as Imentioned, you've spent time as
a missionary in Japan and theCzech Republic, two cultures
that in their own ways are verydifferent from the United
States.
So do you think these tendenciestoward relativism individualism
and what I'll calllibertarianism-though not in the
(08:59):
sense of the political party-are unique to certain places in
the West or do they have anincreasing pull throughout the
whole world?
Jen Oshman (09:08):
Yeah, you know, it's funny having lived in Asia and
Europe- and obviously Asia iswide and diverse and so is
Europe- but what was sofascinating is there are some
striking similarities betweenthe Japanese culture and the
Czech culture, which we did notanticipate, but some just really
interesting things (09:24):
like for one neither people group ever wears
shoes in their home, or they alltake, no matter what, if you're
in Czech or Japan, you take offyour shoes.
When you enter any house or evenschool buildings and office
buildings, there are certainindoor shoes that you switch to
when you get to that building.
Also both cultures speak reallysoftly.
(09:45):
It's rude to speak really loudlyand they speak with their mouths
moving sort of minimally.
Whereas in the Czech Republic,they said Americans look like
they're speaking with an egg intheir mouth: a whole egg, you
know, without cracking it.
So anyway, that's a side note,that even though they are a
world apart and have totallydifferent histories, there's
some interesting similaritiesbetween the two, but another- to
(10:09):
get to your question- Anotherthing that's similar about both
Czech and Japanese cultures isthat they are- really the
foundation is the family and thefoundation is sort of the
ancestry and the history of thefamily.
Both people groups are largelyhomogenous, so strikingly
different from the United Stateswhere we are sort of a melting
(10:31):
pot, but in Japan you havealmost exclusively Japanese
citizens with Japanese ancestry,and same with the Czech
Republic.
Now in Czech, there's a littlebit more intermarriage with the
surrounding nations, but theCzech people are very Czech
historically, and this is asource of pride for both
countries.
They're very proud of theirheritage and proud of their
(10:53):
traditions as a culture and as apeople.
So in that way, they are sodifferent than the United
States.
We don't have much of a sharedidentity in terms of our history
and traditions, and we don'tintroduce ourselves as members
of a family or as people of acertain city or of a certain
village or of a certaintradition, whereas in Japan and
(11:14):
Czech you do.
It's very much part of yourintroduction of who you are,
even today, even as a youngperson, you are a family that
-your line, you know, who youcome from.
So I think while pride iscertainly pervasive, we see it
in the Garden and then we see itin every human heart- Since the
Fall pride and sin is pervasive.
That is our condition as fallenhumans.
(11:36):
What's different here in theUnited States is that we don't
have a shared identity or ashared ancestry, and especially
in more recent decades, we'vetried really hard to invent
ourselves and create our ownidentity, and identity politics
is increasingly coming to thesurface as an issue of not just
contention, but even violenceand huge disunity in our nation,
(11:57):
and I think that's becausepeople have worked so hard to
create their own identity, thatto threaten it or to question it
is very personal and veryhurtful and just sort of wounds
the soul of the person who said,"This is who I've decided I am.
This is my identity." Theyaren't couched in the safety and
the security of a family name ora family tradition or a family
(12:20):
line or the history and heritageof a people group.
They've had to inventthemselves, and the invented
self is very fragile, which islargely what Enough about Me is
about.
So I do think the U.S.
is unique in that way, andcertainly maybe not the one and
only- I can't say that we're theonly society in such a position
across the globe, but it's thesociety I know best, and I know
(12:40):
that we are fragile because ofthat.
Amy Mantravadi (12:43):
Yeah, and if you think about U.S.
History, it makes sense thatwe'd be that way because with
the exception, of course, NativeAmericans, everyone else here is
an immigrant at some point oranother.
And I in previous years workedon a study where I was
interviewing people all over thecountry for some social science
(13:08):
research that was being done,and one of the questions I had
to ask them was,"What is yourethnic identity or where is your
family from?" And it was veryinteresting the high percentage
of people who just said,"American," and really we were
looking for- American is not anethnicity.
We were looking for,"Myancestors are from Germany," or
(13:30):
even Africa or acontinent...anything.
And they just had no idea where-no sense of any history beyond
just their generation or the oneor two before that.
And as someone who myself hasspent a lot of time looking into
my family genealogy- as I'vefound out more and more about
(13:51):
where my family is from, in anodd way, I have started to see
myself less and less as Americanor just an individual here
creating my own identity andmuch more connected to a history
and a people that go back forhundreds of years.
But our status as an immigrantnation really has created in
(14:13):
many cases a rootless people,and you know, when you talk
about not being identified byyour family identity, I guess I
could see some good consequencesof that in that you don't have
as much of an aristocracy as youdid in old Europe where, people
in the upper classes looked downon people in the lower classes,
(14:37):
but it also gets rid of all thepositive parts of family
identity.
So that's interesting that youhave that observation.
I appreciate it because you havespent time living in other
cultures, so you have that- youcan bring the different ways
that people tend to think aboutquestions of identity.
Jen Oshman (14:54):
Yeah, I'm with you.
I think it's fascinating.
Amy Mantravadi (14:57):
You refer to God in your book as a story writer
and storyteller from whom wehave our existence.
He is the one who can,"...tellus about ourselves.
He has the answers." I'vethought about God in a very
similar way as the maker of acar and the commands of God are
akin to an instruction manualfor that car.
(15:20):
How do Christians who outwardlyacknowledge God as their creator
tend to forget that fact incertain ways and how does it
manifest in our behavior?
Jen Oshman (15:30):
Well, I know that I personally forget it a hundred
times a day in a hundreddifferent ways.
Again, going back to questionnumber one, pride is really at
the root of this.
The enemy asks Adam and Eve,"DidGod really say that?" And that's
sort of been the question of thesinful human heart ever since:
Did God really say that?
Did he really ask these thingsof me or did he really command
(15:51):
these things or can I be my ownGod?
Can I direct my own way?
And certainly I fall prey tothat, as I said, truly a hundred
times a day, as I seek to obeymyself and seek to please myself
above the God who made me andcreated me and saved me as well.
So I think that, especially inthis moment, and I know there's
(16:11):
nothing new under the sun, butin this moment of a very
consumer oriented American orWestern culture, we really do
seek to please ourselves.
We have so much security, somuch comfort, so many
opportunities to do exactly whatwe want to do and not endure
certain peril or certainhardships.
We want to cultivate our bestlives now.
(16:32):
It's so easy to forget thatJesus asked us to lay down our
lives, that he asked us to bethe least and he asked us to be
the last.
God really did say,"If you wantto follow me, you must bear your
cross.
You must lay down your life tofind it," and I think of
somebody like Mary when theangel appeared to her, she said,
"May it be to me as you havesaid," and just so willingly
(16:55):
gave her body, gave her life,gave her social status, her soon
to be married status- all theseways that she viewed herself and
others viewed her and laid thatdown and said,"Yes, may it be to
me as you have said." And Ithink that's something that I
personally and I think many ofus Christians in the West
struggle with.
We forget that the Lord hassaid,"Yes, go low, lay yourself
(17:17):
low," and we seek to serve andplease, and protect ourselves
rather than following Christ.
Amy Mantravadi (17:24):
Yeah, I think we could probably go on for a very
long time about all the waysthat we do that, and if you're
only forgetting this a hundredtimes a day, you're probably
doing better than me, cause I'mprobably at least at 200.
Because isn't that the source ofall sin?
Just our forgetfulness of God'sposition in relation to us.
(17:46):
So yeah, I appreciate youreflecting on that.
As a young person, I had theimpression that giving oneself
more and more to God meanthaving your identity erased in a
certain way or your personalitychanged.
I've come to see as I've gottenolder how untrue that is, and
you make a good point to thiseffect when you say,"To be our
(18:10):
true selves, to walk in our mostgenuine identity, does not come
from within.
Rather it comes from beingfueled by our relationship with
God and living for his glory ascreatures designed by him and
for him.
This is our best and truestself." Could you expand on that
a bit more?
How does finding our identity inChrist make us the truest
(18:31):
versions of ourselves?
Jen Oshman (18:32):
Sure.
Well, like we just said in thelast question, God is our story
writer.
God is the storyteller.
He writes us into his grandstory, so he is our Creator.
And if you even just look backto the creation account, you can
see right off the bat what agood and kind and loving God he
is, the way that creation is,the beauty that we can behold in
creation.
(18:53):
The fact that he created us inhis image for community and
worship, by him, for him,through him, to him as
Colossians says.
So he knows us best because hemade us.
He's the one who knit ustogether and we are by no means
then to think that we are sortof cookie cutter or that erases
anything.
I mean, Amy, if we just look atthe fish under the sea or the
(19:16):
stars in the sky or theintricacy of the human body,
what's inside each of us- thinkof the billions of people on the
planet and how each one hasdifferent eyes and different
hair and different personalities- physically, inwardly and
outwardly, their spirits, theirpersonalities- there is so much
diversity in creation.
Our God is immeasurablycreative, and so if we remember
(19:40):
and return to the truth that hemade us and we seek his face and
seek his will and seek what ishis grand story all about and
fit ourselves into that with hishelp and with his power, for his
pleasure and for his glory,that's when we come to know
ourselves the best, and it'swhen we rail against that where
we really miss out on the joyand peace and satisfaction that
(20:02):
he's intended for us to have inthis life.
Amy Mantravadi (20:07):
Yeah, I think that's a very good point.
And when we talk about having tolose ourselves in order to find
ourselves or laying down ourlives in order to follow Christ,
I think it's best to think aboutthat as what we're really losing
is our sinful tendencies anddesires being lost over time.
The good thing that God alwaysintended us to be, like you
(20:29):
said, is coming out, and youmake a good point that he wants
a diversity of people.
He doesn't want us to all becookie cutters, so I appreciate
you talking about that.
One good point you make in yourbook is that,"Any deviation from
biblical Christianity can bedetected when we are told to
(20:50):
turn our practices and habitsinward on ourselves rather than
outward on our marvelousSavior." Two manifestations of
this that you mention are theway we think about"quiet time"
and the content of our worshipsongs.
Could you discuss that a bit,and are there any more examples
that you've seen?
Jen Oshman (21:09):
Yeah, sure.
So again, I've said this and Ihate to be Debbie Downer about
it, but we live in such aconsumeristic oriented culture.
We have this sort of consumerChristianity.
If we haven't rejected churchaltogether or rejected Jesus
Christ altogether, and we've- wewant to follow him, or we want
to join a Christian church inmany ways, it's with a
(21:31):
consumeristic mentality.
Which one fits me the best?
Which one do I enjoy the best?
Which one has the best coffee orthe best kids' programs?
Or where can I go to consumerather than where can I go to
maybe contribute or to covenantwith the other people in the
community and pursue thegoodness that is the family of
God we tend to consume.
And once you see it, it's hardnot to see it everywhere.
(21:53):
And I know it's not everywhere,but you think of just the large
institutions- and I have nothingagainst large churches.
I'm not saying that by anymeans, so please don't mishear
me, but just these engines thatsort of have to keep themselves
going.
And the goal then is maybenumbers and growth so that the
engine can keep going, and it iseverywhere.
It's on our home decor, it's inour Instagram and it's in our
(22:16):
own souls, this desire to serveourselves.
And so it can be hard to see, orit could be hard to pick up on
that idol when you worship it,but I do think it comes out in
things like your personal quiettime.
Certainly our relationship withour Maker and Savior is meant to
be personal.
Certainly our salvation ispersonal.
We must surrender our unique andpersonal selves over to our
(22:39):
Lord.
However, the Christian life wasnever meant to be private.
Personal in some ways, yes, butnot private.
We were created for community.
As we see in the Garden of Eden,we were created to be a part: to
be one more link in a eternalgenealogy.
(23:00):
There's so many genealogies injust the Book of Genesis alone,
but throughout all of scripture.
And we're part of that genealogyand we are designed to flourish
corporately, not flourishindividually.
And so I think in the AmericanWest especially, we have really
forgotten that crucial and Ithink very central component of
(23:20):
our faith is that we werecreated for community, not for
an individual pursuit.
And that has been to ourdetriment, our great detriment.
It has been- We've just beenreally hurt ourselves in the
process.
And so you see it like in yourquestion, and as I say in the
book, you see it in worshipsongs too, that make priority
your personal feelings ratherthan the exaltation and goodness
(23:42):
of God, or maybe a corporatehistory- a corporate recitation
of God's goodness to the wholecommunity.
We do tend to just be verypersonal or very private rather
than corporate, and I don'tbelieve that's the Lord's design
and I don't think it's for ourgood.
Amy Mantravadi (23:58):
Yeah.
You made me think about some ofthe observations that have
occurred over the past year withthe coronavirus pandemic and so
many people going to virtualstreaming of church services
rather than going in person onmany occasions, because they're
legally barred from going inperson for a time, or they have
(24:19):
very real concerns for theirhealth.
And we've been watchingstreaming of church a lot more
than going in person, but I dofeel that we lose something when
we're just watching on the TV.
But there's been a lot ofconcern that some of the people
who are watching at home,they'll never come back when the
churches reopen (24:41):
they'll just check out of church entirely.
But what I'm seeing from peoplewho seem to be really deep in
their faith is that they arereally feeling a loss over the
course of this year.
They aren't feeling like,"Oh,it's just as good to watch on
TV," because they understandwhat it is to be in that vibrant
(25:02):
community that God has intendedwhere we are walking together in
the Christian life and not juston our own.
Because even before the pandemichappened, you would hear about
these virtual reality churchesor whatever, and we all kind of-
a lot of us made fun of it.
"That's not really church! It'snot the same thing!" But now
it's almost like God has givenus all this test of all of a
(25:25):
sudden being starved of some ofthat community, and we're
finding lots of different waysto try to continue the community
despite the restrictions, butit's given me such an
appreciation for the fewoccasions we have gone in
person.
It's just so special.
And when we finally get back tomore of a normal where we're
(25:49):
going every week- I mean, ourson was born the month before
everything shut down, so hereally has no concept- I mean,
he's too young to have much of aconcept of anything, but he's
still- he doesn't have a conceptthat every week we go to church.
He thinks every week we godownstairs and sit and watch
church, which is good, and we dolots of things too every day.
(26:11):
We're reading scripture andpraying with him, doing
different things, but it will bedifferent for him when he's
there with his church family.
So I just think this past yearhas given such a perfect example
of what you're talking about,that we can't just have our own
little church with our Bible andour mug of coffee on a Sunday
morning, sitting on our porch.
(26:31):
You know, it's not the same.
It's not what God intended forus.
And when we are together, thatdrives us away from that purely
consumer mindset.
We're forced to be part of abody, and that is what God
intended for us.
So I think that's just a greatpoint that you have.
Our culture loves the message,"Believe in yourself," and
(26:55):
various variations on that.
As a mother of a small child, Isee it in many children's books.
It's in so many American films.
We seem to accept this platitudewith little consideration, and
yet you point out that thismessage is in large part
antithetical to Christianteaching.
You write,"To believe in oneselfis to refuse grace.
(27:19):
It is to say to the God who madeyou,'I'm doing fine on my own.
Thank you very much.' It justrefuse the Lord's unconditional
love, forgiveness andempowerment.
But when we confess that we arenot enough, we invite all of
that in.
Confession leads to joy." How dowe draw a line as Christians
(27:39):
between appropriateself-confidence and harmful
pride that places trust insomething other than God?
Jen Oshman (27:48):
Man, that is a good question, because I feel like
those two things can look reallyidentical.
The sort of outward appearanceof two different hearts can be
very similar, and I thinksometimes we can even not know
ourselves- from which foundationwe are operating- and it's
something we constantly need tobe asking ourselves about.
But really the premise andmessage of the whole book is
(28:12):
that first sentence that youread: to believe in oneself is
to refuse grace.
And that's my hope with the bookEnough about Me is that those
who read it would justexperience total relief.
It's so exhausting to believe inyourself, to feel like,"I have
got to invent myself.
I have got to pull myself up bymy bootstraps and I've got to
make this happen.
It's all on me." And that's howwe were raised at least in a
(28:36):
secular setting, and I think alot of times even in the church
setting, maybe by teachers andparents who did not realize that
that's actually what they werecommunicating.
So this exhaustion, this burntout experience that a lot of us
have is the result of,"I can doit myself." And so my hope is
that the reality check that,"No,actually you can't do it
(28:58):
yourself," is a message of sweetrelief.
And you make a good point withyour question: there is an
appropriate self-confidence,absolutely.
We must remember there is now nocondemnation for those of us who
are in Christ Jesus.
To be beloved and chosen andholy and set apart by the God of
the universe is such a greatgift, and when we operate from
(29:20):
the foundation of that truth,that,"I am his.
He will never leave me orforsake me.
I can never be snatched out ofthe Father's hands.
I belong to him," then weoperate from a place of wanting
to please him and steward thelife that he's given us.
It's a stewardship mindsetrather than a self help mindset.
It's an acknowledgement (29:40):
my life and breath and all that I have
comes from the hand of asovereign and good God.
He ordained my life and thecircumstances and my gifts and
abilities, as well as myshortcomings and the hard things
in my community or my settingfor his good purposes.
And so I can wake up withconfidence every day that God is
(30:01):
God and he's going to accomplishwhat he wills in my life.
And when we move from thatperspective rather than an"I can
do it myself" perspective, wehave nothing but hope, we have
nothing but encouragement andpower because we know that God
is in charge and his will cannotbe thwarted, and he's pleased
with us because when he looks atus, he sees his Son and his
Son's righteousness.
(30:22):
And so it's an incrediblyfreeing shift in the way that we
think.
And so really just to get backto your question, how do we draw
that line?
I think it depends on who wetrust.
Do we trust ourselves or do wetrust the Lord?
Amy Mantravadi (30:37):
Yeah.
One of the pastors at my churchis very fond of putting the sort
of secular gospel in terms ofthe phrase,"Do more, try
harder," which is really theopposite of the gospel.
And yet I think in our culturewith the sort of self-reliance,
(30:59):
rugged individualism, and insome ways it comes a little bit
from capitalism, the mindsetthat if you just work hard
enough, you can succeed in theeconomy or you can succeed in
life.
And regardless of where we areon the political spectrum, I
think we all to a certain extentbuy into the idea of
meritocracy.
"We have it within ourselves.
(31:20):
We just need to pull ourselvesup by our bootstraps." And on
the one hand I can say, I don'thave nearly enough faith to
believe in myself.
I know myself too well tobelieve in myself.
And yet again, there areprobably a hundred times a day
where without even thinkingabout it, I've falled into that
"Do more, try harder" mindset.
(31:41):
I have a almost one-year-oldson, and during the day I'm
saying,"Okay, did I do this withhim?
Did I do that?
Did I get this done?
Did I get that done?
Did I have time to work on thepodcast?
Did I have..." I judge my daybased on,"How much productivity
did I get?
How many things did I check offon the list?" And in a certain
way, I have to have a list tokeep myself sane and not forget
(32:01):
everything, because my memorywent completely kaput after I
had a baby.
But on the other hand, that isdefinitely falling back into
that idea that believing inyourself- that if I just keep
trying harder, if I just get up30 minutes earlier and do one
thing more in the day, thatit'll all be okay.
So I really appreciate dthat youtalked a lot about that in your
(32:25):
book, especially because yourbook is targeted a lot to people
like me who are women withchildren, or just trying to
juggle all the things here inAmerican life.
And I think that's something wecan fall into a lot, so I really
appreciate you addressing that.
Jen Oshman (32:42):
Yeah, I'm preaching to myself, Amy.
I have to say that to myself allthe time.
Amy Mantravadi (32:46):
Yeah.
So another thing our culture isabsolutely obsessed with is the
notion of choice and the beliefthat more choices equals greater
freedom.
To a certain extent, that'strue, but you also point out
that we can end up becoming aslave to our own choices, unable
to decide, because we thinkeverything hinges on our own
(33:08):
autonomy.
How should Christians thinkabout our choices differently
than the population in general?
This is something you address inyour book, but maybe you could
just give us a little preview ora little snippet now.
Jen Oshman (33:20):
Sure.
Yeah.
I think in the book I share howafter living overseas for about
15 years and coming back andtrying to do the grocery
shopping, it was just absolutelyoverwhelming.
We've lived back in the U.S.
For five years now, and I stillfind it almost debilitating to
go into the grocery storebecause there are so many
choices.
It's like analysis paralysis.
There's too many things to thinkabout.
(33:41):
And we do get into that mindsetas Americans.
"Well, as long as I curate thebest education, the best friends
group, the best wardrobe, thebest weekend plans and
retirement plans and vacationplans and do just the right
thing, and of course curate itfor online consumption in social
media, I can create my best lifenow!" And that's just not true.
(34:04):
We can operate that way for solong, but inevitably will run up
against something, and we'll bereminded that in fact, we are
finite and frail and fallenhuman beings and we need the
Lord and we need his help.
And so, again, not to be abroken record, but I hope that
that is a freeing message (34:21):
that you are not the sum of your
choices, your good ones or yourbad ones.
There's nothing that you or Ican do to make God love us more
or make God love us less, and heis indeed sovereign, and he does
look upon you and me with loveand grace if we are in Christ
Jesus, and he wants to help usand to fill us and to move us
(34:43):
through our days according tohis will.
And so my desire is thatChristians would look at choices
again with that sort ofstewardship mentality like,
"Lord, what would you have medo?" We tend to look at life
with,"Well, what can I get awaywith?" And I think a better
question is,"Well, how should Ihonor the Lord?
What has he appointed for thismoment?
What would be by him and for himand through him, into him in
(35:05):
this moment?" And then there'sfreedom in that because I
realize I'm not the sum of mychoices.
If I really screw this up, it'sgoing to be okay because Jesus
has redeemed me and he's notletting go of me and he will
help me, whatever comes.
So let's not be overwhelmed byour choices and feel like,"It is
all on me," because that's justnot true.
Let's walk in freedom that ourGod is good and he is ready to
(35:27):
help us.
Amy Mantravadi (35:29):
You know, so much of what you're saying
reminds me of the first questionand answer in the Heidelberg
Catechism, which asks,"Q.
What is your only comfort inlife and in death?
A.
That I am not my own, but belongbody and soul...to my faithful
Savior, Jesus Christ." And I'veso often observed that if you're
(35:50):
not in Christ or if you thinkyou are and you're not, or if
you're completely secular,that's not comforting at all to
think that you belong to Christ: that you're not completely in (35:56):
undefined
control of everything, but theBible is pretty clear that all
of us are being influenced andcontrolled by something.
Paul says we're either slaves tosin or we're slaves to
righteousness, and the Biblesays that true freedom is to
(36:18):
serve Jesus Christ rather thanserving yourself or the devil or
whatever you're worshiping.
So I think that sometimes we'veraised freedom up to be the most
valuable virtue in our society,but freedom is only as valuable
as what you use it for, and whatkind of freedom are we talking
(36:40):
about?
We just like the word freedom somuch that we don't think too
much about,"What does thatactually mean?" and the fact
that none of us are really free.
And sometimes all of a sudden,even though we have the best
technology and medicine andeverything that we've ever had
in human history, there can be avirus that hits us that
completely throws everything outof whack, and suddenly none of
(37:02):
us are in control anymore.
And so again, our currentsituation is a reminder to us of
what you're talking about, andso I really appreciate that.
Circling back to some things wetalked about, you have a quote
in your book,"We tend to believethat our worth is equal to what
we can produce and consume.
We look to ourselves, To theproducts we choose and buy, to
(37:25):
the methods we choose to liveby, to the things we can
produce, and to the lifestylechoices we make for our value
and identity." This tendency ofour society to value people in
terms of production and definethem in terms of consumption has
led to all sorts of negativeconsequences, not the least of
(37:45):
which is the dehumanization ofanyone who's not seen to
"contribute anything tosociety." And unfortunately the
same tendency is also prevalentwithin the Church, if in
slightly different ways.
How does our mindset ofproduction and consumption
specifically affect the way wethink about success in Christian
(38:07):
ministry or in the Christianlife?
Jen Oshman (38:10):
Yeah, you know, this issue is like insidious and it's
absolutely evil.
I believe it's what drives theabortion industry.
It's what drives physicianassisted suicide.
It's what's driving so muchdepression and despair.
It's just this idea that if youcan't contribute to society,
then your life doesn't havemeaning.
If you can't do somethinguseful, if you are less than
(38:33):
able, somehow then life is lessthan worthy, and it's so
grievous, and it's so contraryto our God who says that when we
are weak, he is strong.
So really it's- as I said, it'sjust pervasive.
And we do see it in theChristian life and in the
Christian Church as well, and itgrieves me and I see it in my
own heart.
I am not pointing fingers asmuch as I am just acknowledging
(38:56):
this in myself- is that we wantto see,"What can I get done
today?
What can I produce?
How many followers can I have?
How many listeners can I have?
How many books can I sell?
How many people will come to mychurch?
If I'm a missionary, how manypeople will get converted?
How many times am I sharing thegospel?" We tend to be visually
oriented, you know,"What can Isee?
And then what can I count?" Wewant to measure the things that
(39:19):
we see.
And so I do think it's a hugeissue inside our churches and
inside our own hearts.
What we determine to be good andfaithful ministry, we measure
with our finite limited humanminds, but that is not the mind
of God.
The Lord does not deem successwith big numbers.
(39:39):
I don't mean to paint such abroad brush stroke as to say
there aren't some useful thingsabout that.
There are.
With God's help and the HolySpirit's leading it's okay and
good and helpful sometimes tolook at those measurements.
I don't mean to say they're allawful, but if you just look at
the life of Christ and who hedrew near to, it was the sick
(40:01):
and the outcast and the poor andthe lowly.
This is who Jesus drew near to.
This is who he had compassionon.
This is who he came to save, andso if we wouldn't call that
fruitful ministry, how dare wedeem what we're doing now as
fruitful.
So I think there's thisprinciple that I have that has
(40:21):
been really helpful, whether onthe mission field or whether
here in the U.S.
as a church planter, or as nowan author, and it's that God
calls me to be faithful.
He's asked a certain task of me.
He's placed something in my lifeand asked me to do it.
So my job is to be faithful, buthis role is to produce the
fruit.
(40:42):
I cannot produce fruit.
It's God who grows the fruit iswhat Paul says, and so that
fruit is not really my business.
You know, the numbers aren'treally my business.
My business is being faithfuland obedient to my Lord and
honoring him, but what he wantsto do with my faithfulness is up
to him.
And it might be to have a teenychurch or to sell no books or to
be rejected and persecuted.
(41:03):
That might be his will, andthat's the fruit that he's
growing, and that's a blessing,and we ought to praise him and
thank him for that as well.
So my encouragement to people,especially if they feel
paralyzed, like,"What should Ido?
What if nobody listens, or whatshould I do if nobody reads?"
Well, that's okay.
That's not our business.
That's God's business.
Go ahead and obey him and lethim determine what the outcome
(41:25):
will be.
Amy Mantravadi (41:27):
And that's such a temptation as a writer, or a
pastor, or a missionary to thinkthat you have to protect your
platform, I guess you could say.
"Because no one listened to meif I don't have this institution
backing me, or if I don't haveenough followers on Twitter or
(41:47):
enough..." And we think,"Well,it's good for people to hear
what I have to say, so I have tokeep promoting it, perpetuating
that in some way." And sometimeswe need to stop and ask,"Are we
just telling people what theywant to hear?
Are we telling them what Godreally needs them to hear?"
Because if you look in the Bibleat the prophets, a lot of times
(42:10):
when they told people what Godwanted them to hear, they didn't
get a lot of fans.
And you can look at Jesus andsay, he actually did have a lot
of people who came to listen tohim.
He was somewhat of a celebrityin his own day, but when push
came to shove, a lot of thosepeople rejected him and he was
willing to give up the things ofthis world to save us, and as a
(42:35):
result of that, God broughtabout this blessing where he
said, the Father is going tobring everyone to me that the
Father has for me.
And you definitely see that it'sGod who's bringing the fruit.
And sometimes we're not going tosee it in our lifetime.
You think about all those OldTestament patriarchs who had to
see the promises from afar, andthey were faithful for many
(42:57):
years and never saw the Christcome, but God does keep his
promises.
So it's useful to look atnumbers and pay attention to
them, because sometimes that canpoint to something that is
problematic.
But I do think it's a problemthat most of the time, if you
ask people,"Name some reallysuccessful pastors," they're
probably going to all namepeople with either huge
(43:20):
churches, or a lot of publishedbooks and sold books, or who
appear at a lot of conferences,and some of those pastors
certainly have been verysuccessful for the Lord and
being very faithful to him, buthow many people would say,"Well,
my pastor of this church with 50people is the person who is very
successful"?
(43:40):
No, we don't think about it thatway.
So I definitely think you make agood point there, and certainly
as you say, the most nefariousway we see it is in just
completely devaluing certainhuman lives.
So that's the worst thing thatcomes about as a result of it,
but in a lot of small ways, Ithink we buy into some of that
(44:01):
reasoning as well.
You have a quote in your bookoriginally from Andrew Delbanco
that,"Pride is the enemy ofhope." I thought that was an
interesting way of puttingthings.
Can you unpack it?
Jen Oshman (44:16):
Yeah.
I love that quote too, which isdefinitely why I borrowed it to
stick in my book.
"Pride is the enemy of hope." Sowhen we are prideful, when we
think,"I can do it myself," whenwe have total self-confidence
and we count on ourselves- atthe end of the day, I think when
we're totally honest, we know weare limited.
You know, that's sort of whatburnout is: we know we actually
(44:38):
don't have what it takes to getthe job done.
We know ourselves better thananybody else.
We know our secrets and our sinand our shortcomings better than
anybody else, and we know howtired we get and we know how
incapable we are.
So when we keep shoving thattruth away and say,"No, no, no,
I can do it.
I can do it.
I can do it," discouragementrises.
(44:59):
But when we just look in themirror and go,"You know what,
it's totally true.
I can't do it," that's when hopecomes rushing in.
It's just that surrender.
It's that on the floor momentthat I talk about in the book.
It's hitting rock bottom.
You know, we all have to hitrock bottom once, especially to
be saved, but then over and overa hundred times a day, when we
(45:20):
say,"I've fallen again, Lord, Iblew it again.
These people in my life, thisproject, whatever you've given
me, I've blown it again.
I can't do it myself.
Please help me." There's nothingmore hopeful in this life than
calling on the Lord and saying,"Please help me," and my hope is
that this book will help peopledo that- is just cry out,"I
(45:40):
can't do it.
Please help me." That's sohopeful.
Amy Mantravadi (45:44):
It reminds me of the story of Martin Luther and
how he for many years tried sohard to become righteous through
self-effort and constantlyconfessing his sins to the point
that person he was confessing tois like,"You really need to be a
little easier on yourself.
This is getting insane." Youknow, and they were monks, so if
(46:08):
they thought that he was beingtoo hard on himself, he was
being really hard.
And he said- I can't give you anexact quote, but in his writing
he said he got to the pointwhere he was just in complete
despair, and that was when Godwas able to reach him: when his
heart was open to the gospelthat it wasn't through
self-effort.
And that was when he surrenderedthat pride of trying to earn his
(46:31):
salvation, essentially, so hewas able to actually experience
the freedom of salvation and thehope that that brought him.
And he was in very deepdepression and was relieved from
a lot of that as a result.
So I think that's just a goodway to sum up your book, and I
would very much encourage peopleto read your book Enough about
(46:52):
Me and to listen to yourpodcasts, but just here at the
end, I'm wondering- you'reworking on a new book and I
think you were trying to justcomplete the manuscript before
we recorded it.
So could you give just a littlesneak peek of what that will be
about?
Jen Oshman (47:08):
Yeah, sure.
I just turned in the manuscripton Monday also.
This book will be published byCrossway again, and it will come
out...
Amy Mantravadi (47:15):
Okay.
I'm giving you a round ofapplause for completing your
manuscript.
That's great.
I commiserate with you on thehard work and congratulate you
on a job well done.
Jen Oshman (47:25):
Thank you so much.
I know you know, like writingand podcasting, these things are
done from the isolation of ourown homes and it's fun sometimes
to see like-minded friends whoare co-laboring with you from
afar and cheer each other on, sothank you.
That's really sweet of you.
But yeah, actually this secondbook sort of came out of the
first book.
So in the first book I critiquethe age of self and just really
(47:48):
wanting to draw the reader toremember who God is and remember
who they belong to, and thesecond book I do that as well,
but I actually- so if you everheard my podcast, you know that
I do love to do sort of culturalcritique.
I love the news.
I love the headlines.
I want to know what's going on,and then I want to view them
through the lens of scripture.
And so with the second book I dothat.
(48:08):
It's called So Much More, and Iactually look at what it's sort
of been like to be a girl and awoman since the sexual
revolution, and I try to uncoveror expose five idols of our age
and show the reader therottenness that is underneath
the sort of glittery lifepromising facade, and just
(48:29):
showing how these idols haveover promised but
under-delivered, and we weremade for so much more and all
that we have in Christ.
What he has for us- all that hehas is ours, how he's created us
and made us and the victory thathe has for us.
So my hope is to just exposethese idols and then exalt Jesus
and woo the reader to him ratherthan to the false gods of our
(48:49):
age.
Amy Mantravadi (48:50):
Well, thanks for that little preview, and that's
something to look forward tomaybe coming out later this
year, perhaps, sometime?
Jen Oshman (48:57):
Early 2022.
Yeah, it'll be a year from now.
Amy Mantravadi (48:57):
Hey, we might even be like somewhat past the
pandemic by then.
You never know.
Jen Oshman (49:07):
Oh, L ord willing!
Amy Mantravadi (49:08):
It'd be wonderful.
Then you could have- I don'tknow, people might have actual
book tours or book releaseparties again.
I don't know.
It could be great.
Well, thank you Jen so much fortalking to me today and I really
enjoyed our conversation.
Jen Oshman (49:23):
Thank you so much, Amy too.
It's been really sweet for me aswell.
Jon Guerra (49:51):
[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that
it will roll in abundance, andthat you're building a city
where we arrive as immigrants,and you call us citizens, and
you welcome as children home.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (49:54):
It was an honor to interview Jen about her book
Enough about Me (49:57):
Finding Lasting Joy in the Age of Self, which is
published by Crossway.
As always, the music today isthe song"Citizens" by John
Guerra, who graciously allows itto be used for this podcast.
Wherever you are, I hope thatyou experience a wonderful week
in which you grow in theknowledge of our Lord and live
for his glory.
As Paul concluded in his letterto the Galatians,"The grace of
(50:19):
our Lord Jesus Christ be withyour spirit, brothers and
sisters." Amen.
Come Lord Jesus.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (50:28):
[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always
living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
How through prizes handcuffs cancome in all sizes, love hasn't
million disguises, but winningis simply not one[MUSIC STOPS]
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