Mother to Son with Jasmine L. Holmes

The past few years have seen many discussions in American society and the Church about how we handle issues of race and ethnicity. Author Jasmine L. Holmes has addressed this topic from a very personal angle, writing a series of letters to her own son called Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope. She has some excellent insights about how the Church should think about justice and reconciliation, how we should engage with one another in general, and what it's like to be a mother of boys. This is a valuable discussion on a timely topic. Also in this episode: A somewhat unusual birth story leaves Jasmine on edge.

Links for today's episode:
Official book page
Jasmine's personal website
Jasmine's Patreon page
Twitter
Instagram
Facebook
Let's Talk podcast
Dayton Triangles football team

Episode Transcript

Jon Guerra (00:08):
I have a heart full of questions quieting all my
suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.

Amy Mantravadi (00:27):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio home of the DaytonTriangles football team.
No, the Triangles aren't aroundanymore, but they were one of
the original members of whateventually became the National
Football League.

(00:47):
They won the first game everplayed in that league, beating
the Columbus P anhandles 14 to0.
Today, it's safe to say thatColumbus has D ayton beat in the
football department...along withCleveland and Cincinnati.
But enough about football.
Let's turn to the main topic fortoday.
I'll be interviewing authorJasmine L.
H olmes about her beautifulbook, Mother to Son: Letters to

(01:09):
a Black Boy o n Identity andHope.
She wrote these letters to her eldest son when she was pregnant
with his brother, and in themshe shares her thoughts about

various forms of identity: familial, racial, and spiritual. (01:17):
undefined
She addresses some of the mostpressing questions about
ethnicity and racialreconciliation, but her book has
relevance beyond those debates.
It is also a picture of howmothers relate to their children
and how that kind of familiallove should be characteristic of
how all Christians e ngage withone another.

(01:38):
Scripture tells us that allhuman beings are created in the
image of God and thus filledwith infinite worth.
In Genesis chapter one, verses26 through 27, we read,"Then God
said,'Let us make mankind in ourimage, according to our
likeness, and let them rule overthe fish of the sea and over the
birds of the sky and over thelivestock and over all the earth

(02:01):
and over every crawling thingthat crawls on the earth.' So
God created man in his ownimage.
In the image of God he createdhim.
Male and female He createdthem." Unfortunately, humanity
fell into sin, and ever sincethat point we have been turning
against each other and failingto value each other's worth.
In the words of James, we havebeen making distinctions among

(02:23):
ourselves, becoming judges withevil motives rather than obeying
the royal law to love ourneighbors as ourselves.
We have shown partiality,committing sin and being
convicted by the law asviolators.
But the good news is that JesusChrist, by laying down his life
and taking it back up again, hasmade possible reconciliation not

(02:43):
only between God and man, butalso between man and man.
This ushered in a new era inwhich the mystery of Christ was

revealed (02:51):
that people of all nations w ould be part of God's
household, and that in the seedof Abraham, which is Jesus
Christ, all the nations would beblessed.
Paul writes about this sowonderfully in his Epistle to
the Ephesians, speaking of theway that Jews and non-Jews were
reconciled i n Christ.
"For he himself is our peace whomade both groups into one and

(03:13):
broke down the barrier of thedividing wall by abolishing in
his flesh the hostility, whichis the law composed of
commandments expressed inordinances, so that in himself,
he might make the two one newperson, in this way establishing
peace, and that he mightreconcile them both in one body
to God through the cross, by ithaving put to death the

(03:34):
hostility.
And he came and preached peaceto you who were far away and
peace to those who were near,for through him we both have our
access in one spirit to theFather.
So then you are no longerstrangers and foreigners, but
you are fellow citizens with thesaints and a re of God's
household." That's Ephesianschapter two, verses 14 through
19.

(03:55):
That is the biblical basis onwhich we ought to embrace one
another i n love, regardless ofethnicity.
Now let's go to the interviewwhere I'll be discussing this
issue and others with Jasmine.

Jon Guerra (04:14):
[inaudible]

Amy Mantravadi (04:16):
And I'm here with Jasmine L.
Holmes, the author of Mother toSon: Letters to a Black Boy on
Identity and Hope.
She was educated at ThomasEdison State University and has
taught every grade frompreschool to 12th grade.
She's part of the Let's Talkpodcast, blogs at jasminelhomes
.com, and has contributedarticles to Desiring God, The

(04:38):
Gospel Coalition, ChristianityToday, Modern Reformation, and
Fathom.
You can support her work atpatreon.com/jasminelholmes.
Currently she is teachinghumanities and Latin at the
sixth grade level and herpublished works include Identity

Theft (04:55):
Reclaiming the Truth of our Identity in Christ, to which
she was a contributor; HisTestimonies, My Heritage: Women
of Color and the Word of God, towhich she was also a
contributor; and the book we'regoing to talk about today,
Mother to Son.
You can catch her on Twitter andInstagram@JasmineLHolmes or on
Facebook/JasLHolmes.

(05:19):
So Jasmine, I understand fromyour book that you're a fan of
birth stories, is that correct?

Jasmine L. Holmes (05:25):
Yes.
I am a huge fan of birthstories.

Amy Mantravadi (05:28):
All right.
Well, I did some digging aroundto try to find one that was
particularly interesting.
In fact, I think it's probablythe oddest birth story that I've
ever heard.
Do you know anything about theSuriname Toad?

Jasmine L. Holmes (05:42):
No.

Amy Mantravadi (05:44):
Well, most people don't, so I'm not
surprised that you haven't heardabout it.
As I said, I did some diggingaround and on the website of the
San Diego Zoo, this is what ithas to say about the
reproductive process of theSuriname Toad.
"Males call to the females bymaking a clicking sound
underwater.
A willing female releases 60 to100 eggs and the male fertilizes

(06:08):
them and pushes the eggs ontoher back, where they stick to
her skin.
During the next few days, herskin grows up and around the
eggs, forming a honeycombstructure of pockets and
eventually encloses themcompletely.
After hatching, the young rideon her back for three to four
months, continuing to developunder her skin.
When ready, the fully formedtoadlets push and squirm to

(06:31):
loosen the female's skin.
The pockets on her back open upto reveal the snouts and waving
feet of the toadlets.
When they're ready, they pop outof their holes and head for the
water's surface to breathe andbegin life on their own.
The little toadlets can startsnapping at food right away and
don't care if that food happensto be a sibling.
The mother then sheds her skin,ready for the next breeding

(06:52):
season." It really warms yourheart when you hear a birth
story like that, doesn't it?

Jasmine L. Holmes (06:58):
I was so scared for the mother! I was
like,"Are they going to eather?" I was on the edge of my
seat.
I'm so glad she's okay.

Amy Mantravadi (07:07):
Well, the mother's okay, but apparently
the siblings are not.
I actually thought of thisbecause my husband and I love to
watch nature documentaries, andwe saw some feature on this a
few years back, and I rememberwhen I saw it, it was the most
bizarre birth that I'd everwitnessed.

(07:27):
So I just thought I'd throw thatin there, along with a lot of
the more heartwarming birthstories that you've probably
heard.

Jasmine L. Holmes (07:36):
That was so scary.
My heart was beating so fast.

Amy Mantravadi (07:38):
Well, moving on to a more serious topic of your
book and discussing the purposesof your book.
You say that you want"to seebrothers and sisters of every
tribe, tongue and nationdwelling in unity, not by
flattening God-given ethnic andcultural identities, but by
living in the gloriously diversereality of those identities for

(08:00):
his glory." So I'm wondering howdo we tend to flatten out the
identities of our brothers andsisters in Christ, and do you
think this is a result of fearor letting ourselves off the
hook or something else?
What are your thoughts on that?

Jasmine L. Holmes (08:16):
Yeah, I think it can be the result of a lot of
things.
Some ways that identity can beflattened is just an
unwillingness to haveconversation about different
identities, differentexperiences, different
backgrounds, differentethnicities.
It kind of happens when we getthreatened by differences
instead of embracing them as Godgiven and God ordained.

(08:41):
And that can happen for a lot ofreasons.
Sometimes it's fear.
Sometimes it's fear that theperson is trying to draw us away
from making the gospel the mainthing.
Sometimes it's guilt over whatour ancestors did or didn't do.
Sometimes it's pride- just notwanting to be taught anything.
And sometimes it's just tryingto do the best that you can to

(09:01):
love people in spite ofdifferences by pretending like
those differences don't exist.
So I think that there's avariety of reasons and I want to
be careful not to ascribe one toeverybody.

Amy Mantravadi (09:13):
Sure.
It's a very complicated issue.
It's hard to then put everybodyinto one category and probably
good not to do that, but Iappreciate you talking a little
bit about that.
Toward the beginning of yourbook, you do take a moment to
reflect on the nature of themother-son relationship, and you
write that,"Mothers and sonshave been part of God's

(09:35):
redemptive story since thebeginning of time.
My love for you,"- that is, foryour son who you're writing to-
"is the echo of a heart that hasbeen beating for a millennia." I
just thought that was such asweet and beautiful couple of
sentences that you had.
In light of that, are there anyparticular mother-son
relationships in Scripture thathave really resonated with you

(09:56):
as you raise your children?

Jasmine L. Holmes (09:57):
Mary and Jesus, definitely.
As somebody who loves a goodbirth story, the fact that Mary
was nine months pregnant on adonkey's back is incredible to
me, but also just the fact thatthis young girl- that her womb
was used to carry the king ofthe universe is incredible.

(10:21):
It really speaks to Godelevating motherhood and even
elevating birth and elevatingchild rearing and showing us how
important that is that he madeit central to his plan for the
saving of creation.

Amy Mantravadi (10:35):
Yeah, and we're definitely- I mean, as we record
we're in the Christmas season.
This will be probably releasedafter Christmas, but it
definitely is a time that we'rehaving that brought to our mind.
And I know definitely goingthrough in the past couple of
years pregnancy and thenchildbirth, I did feel a little
more connection with Mary andwith her story, and that's one

(10:56):
that for various reasons hasbeen a little deemphasized among
Protestant Christians, but Ithink that there's definitely a
rightful place for focusing onthat.
And as you pointed out, she'sthe culmination of all that long
line of mothers throughout theOld Testament, coming down to
that relationship.
One of the most powerful partsof your book for me was when you

(11:19):
said the following:"Sweet boy, Ido not say these things to jade
you.
As I teach you these lessons, Ipray that they don't come from a
place of bitterness or a liferuled by fear.
I want them to flow from a placeof wisdom.
I can't just see you as my sweetlittle boy.
I have to visualize the man thatyou'll become, and I must
prepare you to face the world inhis skin." I appreciated when

(11:40):
you made comments like this,because I'm sure some people
will claim that you're raisingyour son to be distrustful of or
even bitter toward others.
What do you think that commentslike that would fail to capture
about the experience of being ablack American and how do you
strike that balance as a motherbetween proper vigilance that's

(12:01):
in line with biblical truth anda mindset that is overly bitter?

Jasmine L. Holmes (12:07):
Such a binary perception of America, American
history, American culture.
Either it's all good or it's allbad.
Either telling the truth aboutAmerica's sometimes racist
history is going to be somethingthat's helpful or it's going to
be something that's damaging.
And I really think that takingour American exceptionalism out

(12:32):
of the center of our focus isgoing to be such an important
step in me answering thisquestion.
So I'm working on a book rightnow about ten black women in
American history who I thinkthat we should know about, who I
didn't know about before Istarted working on this book.
And one of the major critiquesthat I get from people is,"Okay,
but is it going to be a bookthat talks bad about America?

(12:53):
Because there's enough books outthere that talk bad about
America." And it's like, thisbook- To see the stories of
these women as only a reflectionof America is to limit God's
glory in the lives of thesewomen as people that are used by
him.
America is incidental to thestory that God is telling in the
lives of these women, andAmerica is incidental to the

(13:15):
story that God is telling in thelife of my son.
So my goal is not to raise himto be, you know, the most
patriotic person in the world.
My goal is not to raise him tobe a person that hates America.
My goal is not to raise him as aperson who is completely focused
on racism to the exclusion ofeverything else.
My goal is also not to race himas a person who ignores racism.
My goal is to raise him as aperson who holistically sees

(13:38):
that God's hand is moving inhistory and moving in his life,
and he has been given uniqueopportunities because of that
ethnicity, because of hisparentage, because of the place
that he was raised to give gloryto God in the context that he's
in.
And I think that once we movekind of America's street cred
and America's rep out of thecenter, we're really, really

(13:59):
able to see God's glory justshining through.

Amy Mantravadi (14:04):
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to having a
vision of God's plan and hiskingdom that's bigger than just
America, and historicallyAmerican Christians have had a
real tendency to see ourselveskind of as the new chosen people
of God, and some of that goesback to a lot of rhetoric that's
popped up in American history atdifferent times.

(14:26):
But if you think about the factthat we know that human beings
can tend more toward sinfulnessor righteousness, depending on
how much God is working in theirlives- so it makes sense that
nations made up of human beingswould sometimes tend more
towards sinfulness and sometimesmore toward righteousness.
But I do think that it's a toughline probably- not speaking from

(14:47):
personal experience- but I wouldassume as a mother of a black
male child particularly, likeyou talk about, that is a little
bit of a tough road to walkbecause people bring in all this
political baggage to theirassumptions that they then place
on you about how you're raisingyour son, and they- Some people,
of course, tend much more towardthe America's always good

(15:10):
narrative and some toward theAmerica's always bad narrative,
and of course the truth issomewhere in the middle.
So yeah, it's a lot of pressureto put on someone like you to
try to be raising your son inthe midst of all that.
But some of the things you talkabout in the book are a really
good approach to that.
You speak about your own journeyto motherhood, which has
involved not only moments ofjoy, but also moments of grief.

(15:33):
How has God used theseexperiences to shape you as a
mother and as a Christian?

Jasmine L. Holmes (15:39):
He has used my miscarriages in particular to
show me the fragility of humanlife- the preciousness of human
life.
He's made me almost an extrameasure thankful for the two
healthy boys that I do havebecause I have seen up close and

(16:01):
personal just how muchsustaining he has to do from the
moment of conception until themoment that they're born.
He's shown me that as fragile asbabies are in the womb, I'm that
far fragile as an adult, and Istill need God to constantly
oversee my health, my life, mylivelihood.
He's just used it to emphasizemy need of him, not just for

(16:24):
myself, but truly in trustinghim for the lives of my
children.

Amy Mantravadi (16:30):
I think that's good that parenthood provides us
with so many metaphors of thespiritual life, and like you
said, it could help us realizethat even in this era of
scientific progress, we can feelalmost invulnerable sometimes,
and then you have something likethat, or this year happening
with the whole world with thecoronavirus pandemic, when we
realize,"Yeah, life really isstill very fragile." So it's

(16:54):
always a good observation tohave.
Two popular and common phrasesthat you discuss at length in
your book are first that,"Raceis just a social construct, and
second that we should"justpreach the gospel"- in response
to calls for racialreconciliation that we should
just preach the gospel.
You explain that each of thesephrases contains an element of

(17:16):
the truth, but both end up beinglargely unhelpful.
Could you explain that a littlebit?

Jasmine L. Holmes (17:22):
Yeah.
For the"race just a socialconstruct"- It's so interesting
because the same people that sayrace is just a social construct
don't really want to talk abouthow or why race became a social
construct and who made it asocial construct.
So"race is just a socialconstruct" then just becomes
kind of a dog whistle to silencepeople from talking about race
and not necessarily,"Hey, anactual conversation about that.

(17:44):
That is true that race is asocial construct.
How did that become a construct?
How has that social constructbeen used and to what benefit
was the social construct of raceconstructed?" So that one is
just kind of- it's an emptything that people say that is
true, that race is indeed asocial construct.

We are all one race (18:03):
the human race.
The argument isn't thatdifferent ethnicities are worth
different things, right?
Or different ethnicities areinherently different kinds of
people.
The argument has always beenthat this social construct has
been used to denigrate and todisenfranchise certain people

(18:23):
for hundreds of years.
So saying that race is just asocial construct is just like
the cream on top of theconversation.
As far as"just preach thegospel" goes, that one's a
little bit more of a minefieldbecause it can sound like I'm
saying the gospel is notsufficient for really facing
issues of race, racism,ethnicity, confusion, all the

(18:47):
above in the Church.
And the phrase"just preach thegospel" sounds really good on
its face, but the gospel ofChrist isn't just all the good
things that we're supposed to bedoing.
The gospel of Christ isliterally the story of him
coming to the world, dying onthe cross for our sins and
reconciling a people to himself.
There's a lot in the Biblethat's not the gospel.

(19:08):
There's a lot in the Biblethat's law.
There's a lot in the Biblethat's exposition.
There's a lot in the Biblethat's commands.
The gospel is the message thatwe are called to preach.
The supremacy of the gospel isincredibly important and cannot
be overstated, but the truths ofthe gospel have to be applied in
ways beyond just preaching thegospel.

(19:31):
And what I mean by that is partof preaching the gospel is
preaching that once we aresaved, how do we walk in the new
faith that we've been given?
That walk is not technically thegospel.
That walk is after the gospel-it is separate from the gospel.
So I think it can be amisunderstanding and a
misapplication of what the wordgospel actually means and what

(19:52):
the purpose of the gospel is.

Amy Mantravadi (19:55):
And one of the problems with both of those
phrases is that word"just." Raceis a social construct, but to
say it's just a social constructignores the way it's been used
and what it's meant in humanhistory.
It is more- at this stage it'smuch more than just a social
construct, and then justpreaching the gospel can make it

(20:17):
sound, as you said, like thereare no implications- like that
incredible message of the gospelwould have no effect on our
lives, and the fact that God hasreconciled with us would not
affect our desire to reconcilewith each other.
So, yeah, I thought that thepassages where you talked about
that were very helpful.
This book was written before thehistoric protests that occurred

(20:39):
in 2020 following the death ofGeorge Floyd at the hands of
police.
In light of your recentreflections, which I'm assuming
you like everyone else have hadabout this, is there anything
that you'd like to add to whatyou wrote in your book?
Or do you think that this ispretty much just confirming a
lot of the stuff that you hadalready written?

Jasmine L. Holmes (20:59):
I have been very blessed in that there is
nothing that I would like to addor take away from my book.
I think because it was writtento address a specific moment in
my life and to address my son ata specific crossroads in his
young life, that book captures amoment of motherhood that I

(21:20):
wouldn't change for anything.
It's what I wanted to tell himin that moment.
You know, I was pregnant with mysecond born son.
It's what I wanted to tell bothof them in that moment, and the
truths are timeless and apply ina time where America is filled
with historic unrest, but willstill apply when America is at a
place of more peace.

Amy Mantravadi (21:42):
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
You spend a significant amountof time, especially toward the
end of the book, explainingprinciples we should keep in
mind on social media and whenhaving political discussions.
And of course, conversationsabout race are some of the more
controversial ones we tend tohave.
And this highlights the factthat politics and the internet

(22:02):
both tend to amplify ourdifferences and lead to a
worsening of our discourse herein the U.S.
Our communication in both areas,at least to me, seemed to get
even worse this past year.
So what are some principlesChristians should keep in mind
when engaging on social media ordiscussing controversial issues?

Jasmine L. Holmes (22:21):
Social media...it's just a slice of the
pie.
These conversations and thesechanges really do happen in
person and in community.
And so using social media as astand-in for that is always
going to be a sub-parrepresentation of what it's
actually like to walk alongsidepeople.
Social media....t's a way for usto show off the best of

(22:42):
ourselves, but it's also a wayfor us to show off the worst of
ourselves, and I think thatunderstanding that and living
our lives in light of the truththat social media is a tool, not
a supreme thing that needs to bethe center of our lives is
really important.
I think also just intellectualhonesty, which can only happen

(23:02):
if we're less concerned aboutfitting into a certain camp and
more concerned about the truthof the gospel.
Sometimes I upset people on theLeft.
Sometimes I have set people onthe Right.
Neither of those are my homebecause this world is not my
home.
So I think just reallyunderstanding that these little
camps, these little tribes arenot our homes really contributes
to integrity in this discourse.

Amy Mantravadi (23:24):
Yeah, I think those are some good, helpful
points.
You have a couple more books inthe works, one of which you
alluded to briefly.
Any more hints as to what you'llbe tackling next?

Jasmine L. Holmes (23:34):
So the book about the women, a young adult
version of that book, and thenI'm also working on a book about
-What can I say without givingtoo much away?
It's about shame.
I'll just say that it's aboutshame: womanhood and shame.

Amy Mantravadi (23:49):
All right.
Well, those all sound reallyinteresting.
You know, particularly I lovehistory and Church history and
the history of theAfrican-American Church, or I
guess you could say theAfrican-American portion of the
Church universal has beenlargely ignored.
And so I think it's great thatyou're bringing some of those
stories into greater light.

(24:10):
So we'll look forward to that.
And thank you so much forjoining me to talk about your
book.
I enjoyed it and hope you didtoo.

Jasmine L. Holmes (24:18):
Thank you so much for having me on.

Jon Guerra (24:44):
[inaudible].

Amy Mantravadi (24:46):
It was an honor to speak with Jasmine today

about her book, Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on (24:48):
undefined
Identity and Hope, which ispublished by InterVarsity.
Press be sure to keep an eye outfor future books from this proud
"boy mom." For the uninitiated,boy mom means mother to at least
one boy.
It's a thing- I swear.
We have membership cards.
As always, today's music is byChristian recording artist Jon

(25:09):
Guerra off his album, Keeper ofDays.
If you enjoy this podcast,consider leaving an honest
review on iTunes or wherever youare listening to it and tell
your friends about it.
As a matter of fact, tell yourenemies as well, since they
probably need to be convicted bythe Spirit.
Now to him who is able toprotect you from stumbling and
to make you stand in thepresence of his glory, blameless
with great joy, to the only Godour savior through Jesus Christ

(25:32):
our Lord, be glory, majesty,dominion, and authority before
all time and now and forever.
Amen.

Jon Guerra (25:41):
Is there a way to live always?
Living in[inaudible] hallways.
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
All sizes love has a milliondisguises.
The winning is simply not one.