March 15, 2021 • 52 mins
The past few years have revealed the extent to which sexual abuse has plagued both the Church and society as a whole. How should we talk to our children about this issue, and how can the Church improve its response when predators are reported in our midst? Author and advocate Rachael Denhollander stops by to discuss these important topics, providing advice and a bit of conviction. Also in this episode: Rachael reveals the less high-minded factor that has been motivating her this whole time.
Links for this episode:
Official website
Rachael's autobiography
How Much is a Little Girl Worth?
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
"How Christian Theology Shapes Our Response to Abuse" - Speech at CCCU
"A Time to Speak: Addressing Justice and Forgiveness" - Speech at Calvin University
Rachael's testimony at Larry Nassar's sentencing hearing
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Guerra (00:07):
[ MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you from Dayton, Ohio,
home of the First Four.
No, not the Final Four- theFirst Four.
I wish I could tell you thismeans we are the hometown of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,but alas, I'm talking about
(00:48):
college basketball.
Well, there's nothing wrong witha little basketball, especially
in these sport deprived times.
Every year but last year, theUniversity of Dayton's
basketball arena has hosted theopening night of the NCAA
basketball tournament, popularlyknown as March Dadness.
We have the nature of thetournament bracket to thank for
the First Four, because while astandard bracket must increase
(01:10):
to the power of two, the NCAAwanted a different number of
teams to compete.
So we have our standard bracketof 64 teams, or two to the power
of six, plus a few extra.
Dayton's role as host of theseopening games allowed it to also
become the host of PresidentBarack Obama and UK Prime
Minister David Cameron in 2012,when the American leader decided
(01:31):
to introduce his Britishcounterpart to a game of
basketball.
No word on if Cameron was everable to teach Obama the rules of
cricket.
Today's guest, RachaelDenhollander, has her own strong
links to the sporting world, butnot for anything she achieved in
a meet.
She has been honored by ESPN andSports Illustrated for her role
in bringing a horrific sexualpredator to justice.
(01:52):
I could fill an entire podcastor ten just talking to her about
that experience, but today myprimary concern is not to look
back, but forward.
Rachael was assaulted when shewas still a minor, and it is a
sad fact that children are oftentargets of sexual predators.
While obtaining accuratestatistics in regard to sexual
violence is quite difficult,data released by the Centers for
(02:14):
Disease Control and Preventionin 2010 indicated that among
self-identified victims ofcompleted rape, 42.2% of females
suffered this violence for thefirst time before age 18 while a
full 27.8% of male victims wereraped for the first time before
age 10.
In another study put out in 2003by the National Institute of
(02:35):
Justice, part of the U.D.
Department of Justice, whichinterviewed those between the
ages of 12 and 17, found that74% of those who reported having
been sexually assaulted wereabused by someone they knew.
While there's not as muchinformation available about
victims younger than this, butwe can all think of high profile
cases where the victims werevery young.
(02:56):
The identified victims of formerPenn State coach Jerry Sandusky
were as young as seven or eightyears old.
Now, I like you don't want toeven think about the possibility
of my son or anyone else's smallchild being abused in this
matter, and by the grace of God,I hope such things will not
happen.
But the fact remains that thereare people in the world who not
only engage in perverted sexualdesires, but also possess the
(03:19):
devious nature required to breaksome of our society's few
remaining restraints upon sexualbehavior and violate the most
vulnerable among us.
We pray to God for theirrepentance and salvation, but we
must also understand the waythat a mind consumed by sin
works.
Such persons take advantage ofthe trust and kindness of others
who have not lived so long inthe same darkness.
(03:40):
That is why I will be speakingto Rachael today about how we as
Christians must defend the leastof these in our homes, our
churches, and our society.
I know there are some people whofeel uncomfortable with the term
oppression today because theyassociate it with certain
political connotations orpositions, but it's important to
remember that the Bible speaksabout justice for the oppressed
(04:00):
as defined by God.
One passage of scripture thatalways strikes my heart when I
read it is Ecclesiastes chapterfour, verses one through three,
where the writer says,"Then Ilooked again at all the acts of
oppression which were being doneunder the sun, and behold, I saw
the tears of the oppressed andthat they had no one to comfort
them, and power was on the sideof their oppressors, but they
(04:23):
had no one to comfort them.
So I congratulated the dead whowere already dead more than the
living who are still living, butbetter off than both of them is
the one who has never existed,who has never seen the evil
activity that is done under thesun." That is the world we live
in (04:39):
a world in which sin is rampant and the image of God in
all human beings is notrespected often enough.
The people of ancient Israel hada habit of honoring God in many
ways, but forgetting to promotejustice and righteousness for
the least of these.
Through his prophets, Godcondemned them for this
behavior, as in these words hespoke through the prophet Amos.
"I hate, I reject yourfestivals, nor do I delight in
(05:04):
your festive assemblies.
Even though you offer up to meburnt offerings and your grain
offerings, I will not acceptthem, and I will not even look
at the peace offerings of yourfattened oxen.
Take away from me the noise ofyour songs.
I will not even listen to thesound of your harps, but let
justice roll out like waters andrighteousness like an ever
flowing stream." Jesus Christalso proclaimed himself to be on
(05:29):
the side of those who seekjustice, proclaiming,"Will God
not bring about justice for hiselect, who cry out to him day
and night?
And will he delay long for them?
I tell you that he will bringabout justice for them quickly.
However, when the Son of Mancomes, will he find faith on the
earth?" Our test then is to befaithful in promoting justice
(05:50):
for those victimized by sexualabuse and to seek to protect the
most vulnerable around us.
With those scripture passages inmind, let's head on to the
interview.
Jon Guerra (05:57):
[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]
Amy Mantravadi (06:09):
And I'm here with Rachael Denhollander.
Rachael was the first person tospeak out publicly against the
sexual abuses of Larry Nassar,who for many years had been a
prominent doctor, connected toMichigan State University and
treated the USA women'sgymnastics team.
She used her knowledge of thelegal system to help build the
case against Nassar, empoweringhundreds of other women to come
(06:30):
forward and speak about how theyhad also been abused.
Nassar's convictions for sexualcrimes have led to an ongoing
series of investigations andlawsuits related to Michigan
State University, USAGymnastics, and the U.S.
Olympic Committee, as well ascontributing to the greater
public reckoning about how wedeal with such abuses.
She continues to be a leadingadvocate on behalf of sexual
(06:50):
abuse, victims and society as awhole, and especially in the
Church.
In addition to giving interviewsand speaking at conferences, she
has worked directly with thosevictimized by abuse and help to
create resources for individualsand churches to think about how
we protect and care for thosearound us.
Along the way she is partneredwith many other experts in the
fields of criminal justice andtrauma care.
Rachael is the mother of fourchildren and is closely
(07:13):
supported by her husband, Jacoband among the honors she's
received.
She was the Sports IllustratedInspiration of the Year.
She was one of the TIME 100 mostinfluential people, a Glamour
Women of the Year recipient, ajoint recipient of ESPN Arthur
Ashe Courage Award.
And she was named Michiganian ofthe Year by the Detroit News.
(07:33):
And her published works includeWhat is a Girl Worth?: My Story
of Breaking the Silence andExposing the Truth about Larry
Nassar and USA Gymnastics,Discover Your True Worth, which
is a devotional series, Becominga Church that Cares Well for the
Abused, to which she was acontributor, and her book for
children, How Much is a LittleGirl Worth?
(07:53):
And she's also appeared in theNetflix documentary Athlete A.
You can find her on socialmedia, on Twitter
@R_Denhollander, on Instagram@RachaelDenhollander, and on
Facebook@OfficialDenhollander.
So Rachael, before we get intothe rest of the questions, I
wanted to start out with onethat was very hard hitting.
(08:15):
So the world knows you as aselfless and honorable advocate
on behalf of abuse victims, buti s i t not true that you have
actually been motivated thiswhole time by something else,
namely your desire forHaagen-Dazs non-dairy ice cream?
Rachael Denhollander (08:32):
Ice cream.
You know what, I have toconfess, and it's always better
to come clean about thesethings.
The Haagen Dazs non-dairy icecream is at the top.
And I mean, it's just- there'sjust not a whole lot else to
really fight for in the world.
Amy Mantravadi (08:46):
Well, the time you were gracious to have us
over to your home, I believe youactually offered us some of your
non- dairy Haagen-Dazs icecream, which truly-
Rachael Denhollander (09:00):
Shows you how special you are.
Amy Mantravadi (09:00):
It did.
I felt very special at the time,and even more so when I saw on
Twitter you continuing to talkabout how special that was to
you.
So well, thank you.
I don't think I actually hadany.
It seems like when someoneoffers you something that you
know is so special to them, youdon't want to take even any of
(09:22):
it because- and also I mighthave a belief that non-dairy ice
cream, isn't really ice cream,but...
Rachael Denhollander (09:29):
I know, but we need to win you over to
the right side.
Amy Mantravadi (09:31):
Yes, well...
Rachael Denhollander (09:31):
Gonna work on it.
Amy Mantravadi (09:31):
There may be room for persuasion there.
We'll see about that.
So switching to a more serioustopic, I could talk to you about
so many different things today,but I was particularly
interested to hear what you hadto say about how we discuss
(09:51):
sexual abuse with children.
Particularly becoming a mothermyself within the past year,
that was something that was ofinterest to me.
So just from your experience andin your opinion, when is it
appropriate to begin talking tochildren about sexual matters,
particularly sexual abuse?
Rachael Denhollander (10:10):
You know, a lot earlier than we think.
Really the concepts that ourkids need to be able to
recognize and identify andverbalize sexual abuse, those
concepts are concepts we startinstilling at them right away:
concepts of bodily autonomy,concepts of consent, knowing
that if something ever makesthem feel uncomfortable or
unsafe, or they're asked to keepit a secret, or if they just
(10:31):
don't understand it, thatthere's a safe place to talk to-
that they have adults in theirlife that will listen to them.
There are a couple of things myhusband and I do, and that my
parents did that I foundincredibly helpful.
The first is just to keep opencommunication.
Our kids have to know that thethings that they're thinking
about and the things thatthey're feeling- that it
matters, even when I'm in themiddle of parenting the
(10:52):
umpteenth meltdown for the daywith a four or five-year-old
over something that I'm just inthe back of my mind and going,
"Why is this a big deal?" Partof what I keep in mind is if I
want them to come to me with thebig things, they have to know
that their thoughts and theirheart and their feelings are
safe with the things that theyfeel like are huge.
What is huge in their world isreally huge to them.
(11:14):
And so the very firstfoundational thing really is
just having that opencommunication with your kids,
treating their thoughts andtheir feelings and their
concerns and their voice like itmatters.
In addition to that, we startright away with principles of
bodily autonomy and consent, theimportance of privacy, and the
importance of respecting theirboundaries.
So in our household, we have a,"don't touch without
permission" rule, not even a"funtouch" like tickling or hugging.
(11:38):
You don't touch withoutpermission, and they know that
mommy and daddy will defendthat.
And so that just helps even atthe youngest age, start
enforcing the concept thatnobody has the right to your
body unless you give thempermission for it.
We start with concepts of whatmakes them comfortable, what
makes them feel safe, theimportance of privacy- so really
articulating to them as we'rehelping them on the potty, as
(12:01):
we're changing their diapers, aswe're giving them baths when
they're little and still needthat kind of help, how important
it is that they have privacy.
When our kids make a requestrelated to their bodies or
privacy, we do everything we canto honor that and to verbalize
that that should be honored.
So just an example of this, Ihave- out of my four children,
there was one of them inparticular who really still
(12:21):
needed help in the bathroom at acertain age, but they were very
self-conscious to have anyone inthere at the time.
And so every time I'd bring themto the bathroom, I'd help get
them on the potty and then I'dsay, or my husband or dad or
Jacob would say,"Mommy and daddyare going to leave now so that
you can have some privacy andyou just call us when you're
ready," and we would verbalizeto them every single time we
take them to the bathroom (12:40):
that their privacy mattered and it
should be respected.
This also meant that it wasdifficult sometimes to go out on
dates or to go somewhere withJacob, because this child of
ours was not comfortable withanyone helping them in the
bathroom, even a trustedbabysitter or a trusted family
member.
They just weren't comfortablewith that.
And so we stopped until ourchild was comfortable having
grandma or grandpa or a trustedaunt help them on the potty.
(13:03):
We would articulate to them,"Mommy and daddy, aren't going
to go out on a date tonight sothat we can make sure we're home
and that you're comfortable withthe people who are around you."
And so we verbalized to themover and over again how much
that mattered.
If someone violates theirboundaries or their choices or
their privacy, we make sure thatwe defend that right away, even
if it seems like it reallyshouldn't be that big of a deal.
(13:24):
Everybody who's a parent has hadthe,"Mom he's poking me! Mom,
he's touching me," argument intheir house where you're like,
"This is not the issue thatyou're making it out to be," but
because their principles ofbodily autonomy are so
important, we do defend that.
And so those concepts areconcepts that the youngest
children can get, even asbabies, that they can
(13:45):
internalize and that they canverbalize.
And then as they grow, thesexuality that their body can
have just to start, our sexualconcepts, their sexual knowledge
grows as they age, but it buildsoff of their same foundations of
consent and autonomy and privacyand comfortableness.
Amy Mantravadi (14:04):
Yeah.
I think that's really usefulbecause both from statistics
I've read and just hearingpeople share about their own
experiences who have beensexually abused as children,
usually it's going to be someonethey know, and someone very
close" someone who would havetheir trust in some way or
another.
So maybe to us as adults, itseems very obvious like,"Well,
(14:28):
of course you know when someonewas touching you in a way that
was bad." But actually, no, mostof the time, for kids in
particular, it could be veryconfusing because they're in
this world where- when peopleare dealing with children,
they're hugging them and, likeyou said, tickling and wrestling
with them all the time.
And for a child who has noconcept of sexual touch, it can
(14:52):
be maybe in their mind, it's avery- they don't understand when
it's becoming something that'sinappropriate.
So I think that those are somegood principles to keep in mind
with children.
In addition to that, you'vealready touched on this a bit,
but what kinds of things do weneed to tell our children to
help them understand the dangersto which they might be subject?
Rachael Denhollander (15:16):
So the other thing that we do a lot is
we're really careful how we talkabout their body.
We talk about it in a verypositive way.
We talk about their privateareas in a very positive way,
and we talk about them as beingworthy of respect.
These are extra special parts ofyour body that should be
respected- that deserve to berespected.
And so that crosses into thoseconcepts of,"This is why we
don't violate your privacy.
(15:38):
This is why nobody's allowed totouch without permission,
especially these areas becausethey are worth extra special
respect, and they're just foryou." And then we also make sure
that as we're talking aboutprivacy and boundaries, private
touch, all of those things, thatwe're using words that a child
could encounter (15:54):
concepts a child could encounter if they
experience abuse.
Not every child feels fearinitially upon sexual assault.
They might not be old enough tofeel that fear, or it might come
up even in a context liketickling or playful touch where
they're more confused thananything.
They just don't know what tomake of it.
So we use words like,"If youever feel confused about the way
(16:17):
someone is touching you, or youfeel unsafe, or you feel
uncomfortable, or you're justnot sure, we want you to know
that you can always come andtalk to mommy and daddy about
that.
And so we use words that aremuch milder than the words that
we typically think of withsexual abuse, because a lot of
times when kids experiencesexual abuse, it doesn't
necessarily immediately triggerpain or fear.
(16:38):
We certainly see times that itdoes, but it doesn't always.
And a lot of the times, part ofthe reason kids don't disclose
is because they don't recognizewhat they've experienced yet, or
it doesn't feel quite right, butthey don't have the words to put
with it.
So we try to help them identifythose words- uncomfortable,
confused, not sure- the types ofthings that they might
experience if they were toexperience abuse with someone
(17:00):
who's close, who they wouldtrust.
Amy Mantravadi (17:03):
And particularly with very small children, there
can be a real instinct that wewant to protect them and just
not have them have to worryabout things, and we don't want
to introduce them to sexualmatters too young.
And I think it's certainly truethat you don't want to get into
certain sexual matters with ayoung child, but people who
(17:23):
abuse children are going to takeadvantage of their ignorance-
are going to take advantage ofthe fact that they're not
entirely sure what's going on.
So I think like you said, that'swhy it's so important to find a
way to- without getting graphic,to put it in a way that they can
understand, so they'll start toclue in if- or at least know
(17:46):
enough to say something to you,if anything were to happen to
them.
So turning it around from theperspective of a parent or
anyone who's talking to a child,if a child tells you that
someone has touched theminappropriately or made them
feel threatened in some way, orsomething was confusing or
uncomfortable, what should theresponse look like?
Rachael Denhollander (18:10):
Yeah.
I think the first thing to knowis that it's pretty rare
actually to get an actualdisclosure of abuse from a
child, because most of the timethe child doesn't recognize it,
or doesn't have the words to putwith what they've experienced,
or for children who are livingin just horrific abusive
situations, their entireperception of normal has been so
distorted.
They don't know what to callwhat they're experiencing.
They don't know what's somethingthey shouldn't experience: it's
(18:30):
their entire reality.
So it's actually pretty rare toget a disclosure of abuse.
What's more common at times isto see the warning signs of
abuse or to hear a partialdisclosure.
A child will say somethingthat's not quite right or
something that you don't quiteunderstand.
"I don't want to see so-and-so,""This person makes me
uncomfortable," or they'll justarticulate not wanting to be
around a certain person or in acertain place.
(18:53):
Those are the types of things topay attention to and just watch
closely and ask some follow upquestions.
If you do receive a disclosureof abuse or something that
sounds abusive, the mostimportant information to find
out is who and when.
You don't want to go prying fordetails, as hard as that is.
That type of information reallydoes need to come from a
(19:13):
forensic investigator to ensurethat the child's memory and
child's recall isn't interferedwith in a way that's
unintentionally suggestive, andalso to ensure that the child
isn't retraumatized by having totell the story over and over
again.
But if you can find out the whoand the when- especially the
when- that will help give you anidea of what you might need to
protect the child from andsituations that the child might
(19:34):
need to be pulled out ofimmediately, especially in the
cases where it may be a schoolteacher or custodial caregiver,
someone that they might be incontact with relatively soon.
That also gives you criticalinformation to report to the
police and also to CPS, if it'sa custodial person involved, or
if that person has custody ofanother child.
And so that's when that triggersthat type of reporting.
(19:55):
So knowing the who and the whenis really the most important
just basic information, but it'simportant when you ask those
questions to not show shock orfear or disgust: to be very,
very comforting and calm andsafe place for that child, to be
very reassuring, to help mirrorto an extent their emotions.
If the child is showing grief,you mirror grief-"I'm so sorry
that that happened to you.
(20:16):
That's not okay."- to helpinstill that the telling was the
right thing, to help the childfeel safe in your presence, and
to help them know that you'regoing to do whatever you can to
keep them safe.
And then of course, the stepsthat you take from there include
mandatory reporting to thepolice and likely to CPS, but
also taking whatever steps mightbe necessary to make sure the
(20:36):
child isn't encountering thatperson.
Amy Mantravadi (20:39):
Yeah.
I think that's helpful, becauseas we see so often from people
who don't take the right stepswhen they receive a report of
abuse, some of it is certainlynefarious, but I think there are
also some well-meaning peoplewho either just don't know, or
for whatever reason, maybe theirpersonality or their own
(21:01):
experiences lead them to eitherplay things down and ignore
them, or to immediately panicand start talking to all kinds
of people.
And like you said, making thekid tell their story again and
again, things that could be moretraumatic but necessary.
So I think that's- go ahead...
Rachael Denhollander (21:20):
Yeah.
Just the other thing that'sreally important to understand
is because most of the timeabuse occurs with someone the
child knows, oftentimes there'san emotional connection to that
person, and if the childrealizes that that person might
get in trouble, it can causethem to very quickly retreat.
And that might seemcounterintuitive to an adult
who's looking at the situationwith very clear eyes and
understands how manipulative andevil the abuser is being, but to
(21:42):
the child, oftentimes this issomebody they care about.
They don't want to get thatperson into trouble.
And so if they realize by yourresponse that they've gotten
somebody into trouble, eitherbecause they're afraid of that
person, or because they'reemotionally connected to that
person, it could cause them toback off.
So again, you just want to bevery careful with the way you're
responding to that child, to tryto help prevent that from
(22:02):
happening, to help the childknow that they're safe and that
it was the right thing to do.
And also not to kick in thatfear response for having spoken
up (22:08):
fear of getting someone in trouble or fear of retaliation
from the abuser.
Amy Mantravadi (22:12):
That's another good point.
Transitioning a little bit tohow the church tends to deal
with cases of sexual abuse, whatare some of the typical errors
that churches tend to makeregarding sexual abuse, either
in not preventing abuse or inmishandling reports of abuse?
I mean, we hear about thesethings happening all the time,
(22:34):
and you've been involved intrying to help a lot of people
who have had this happen.
So what kind of patterns do yousee emerging throughout the
church?
Rachael Denhollander (22:44):
Yeah.
How long is your podcast?
How much time do we have here?
Amy Mantravadi (22:47):
Take as much time as you like- within reason,
within reason.
I do have to go to bedeventually.
Rachael Denhollander (22:54):
I know I hear you.
Elora be up at some point heretonight.
You know, the prevention pieceis really interesting because a
lot of times when people askabout prevention, they're
thinking policy.
"What kind of policy do I needto have in place for my nursery,
for my Sunday school?" And thoseare important.
Policy is important, but policyis only as good as the people
you have enforcing it.
It's only as effective as theculture of your congregation.
(23:15):
And a lot of times when peopleare thinking policy, there's
massive gaps in how they'rethinking policy.
It's really common for churchesto look at,"What's our church
nursery policy?
What's our Sunday schoolpolicy?" It's not so common for
them to ask questions right nowlike,"What's our social media
policy for our workers in theteen and college group?" In a
vulnerable population whereyou're going to have a lot of
ability for privatecommunication if we don't have a
(23:37):
policy about that.
So there are places we havepolicy gaps, but the prevention
side really is every bit as muchabout the culture of your church
and your church's understandingof abuse for a couple of
reasons.
One, like I already mentioned,the policy is only as good as
the people who enforce it.
You can have the best policy inthe world, but if your church
doesn't understand what thatpolicy means, they don't
understand why you have thatpolicy, and there's not internal
(24:00):
motivation to follow it, it'svery unlikely for the policy to
have much effect in the end.
It's way too easy to let yourguard down, especially in a
community like the church wheremost of the time, there's some
sort of emotional bond betweenthe people there.
You feel like you know eachother.
You feel like you're in a safeplace.
That's the easiest type of placeto let policy slip.
(24:20):
And so the internal motivationand understanding that comes
behind the policy, the culturearound the policy is every bit
as important, if not more so,than what you have down on
paper.
And so that really leads us tothe cultural aspect and the
relationship to prevention.
One thing that we know aboutabusers after decades of study
is that abusers targetcommunities and target
(24:40):
individuals who they believe arevulnerable, and that churches
and religious organizations areone of the top targets for
abusers, because they know thatwe often teach concepts of
unlimited authority, I think toa very unbiblical extent, but
it's something that is veryuseful to an abuser: this
concept of unlimited authority.
We teach grace and forgiveness.
(25:02):
We teach restoration andoftentimes those theological
concepts, which are beautifulwhen found in scripture, are
wielded in a way that lackscomplete knowledge about abusive
dynamics and results in asituation where abusers are
restored to positions where theycan continue abusing or victims
are silenced with amisapplication of forgiveness or
teachings against bitterness orgossip.
(25:22):
And so abusers seek out thereligious communities for those
reasons (25:25):
particularly conservative, evangelical
communities.
And so the culture you have inyour church surrounding abuse
and surrounding those theologiesis some of the most critical
aspects of prevention, becausethat's what signals to an abuser
that they will be safe (25:38):
that if someone speaks up, they're
likely to not be listened to-that they can manipulate their
way into demonstratingrepentance and that their abuse
is not likely to be broughtforward.
Conversely, a church thathandles that theology correctly,
that is setting a culture ofjustice and righteousness, that
understands abuse and abusivedynamics and articulates that
(26:00):
publicly and clearly is going tosignal to an abuser that this is
not a safe place to prey uponthe congregation.
And so that cultural aspect isreally key for prevention.
It's also key for responsebecause victims are always
looking to see where they feelsafe.
They're looking to see how theirpastors and how their fellow
congregants understand theseconcepts.
(26:21):
They're looking to see how wetalk about victims of abuse in
other contexts, because theyknow,"Oh, that's what they would
think about me or that's howmuch they would understand about
the abusive dynamics in mysituation." And so if you are
hoping to be a safe place forvictims to come forward, to be
able to minister to them, to beable to receive disclosures so
that you can pursue and fightfor justice, the culture that
(26:42):
you set in your church and theway you understand those
theologies is also key for theresponse aspect.
It really takes both.
Amy Mantravadi (26:51):
And I think just following up on one comment you
made there about even themessages that we send to victims
in our church- and every churchhas victims of sexual abuse if
it's a church of any size.
And I don't want to name anynames, but I had an occassion
(27:12):
within the past few months onTwitter where a major Christian
leader was talking about theaccusations that had been made
against Brett Kavanaugh when hewas a nominee for the Supreme
Court, and basically saying itwas all a smear campaign.
And I understand maybe from apolitical point of view why
(27:38):
people may feel certain wayabout that from a political
point of view.
But I tried to look at it as if,"Well, what if I was a sexual
abuse victim and I read that andI may not know all the details
of the political controversyover this?
All I know is that someoneaccused a powerful man of a
(27:59):
sexual assault, and it seemslike you're just automatically
assuming that it wasn't true.
So should I come to you ifsomeone powerful has abused me?"
I think that kind of would havea real chilling effect on
people.
And I'm sure the person whoposted it wasn't even thinking
(28:21):
in that.
He was just like,"Well, this isa terrible thing that Democrats
have done." But you know, ourwords do have an effect, and
certainly abuse victims who arealready going to be sort of
laser-focused on anything that'ssaid pertaining to that, because
it just is so close to theirheart and soul.
(28:44):
If they're not feelingcomfortable, if they don't feel
like they could trust people,that's not someplace they're
going to want to stay, so Ithink that's a good point.
And sort of related to that, thetopic of sexual abuse is not
often mentioned in sermons, andeven biblical passages that
touch on the subject tend to bemishandled in terms of
(29:06):
interpretation.
Just as an aside, in readingyour book- and not the one for
children, but the one that youknow is sort of biographical-
you gave an anecdote about atime that you and Jacob heard a
pastor giving a sermon talkingabout a biblical story where it
(29:27):
basically gave an interpretationof that story that was very
harmful to sexual abuse victims,and I know this is something
that happens a lot.
So what do pastors need to keepin mind when they're preaching
about these passages or thetopic of sexual abuse in
general?
Rachael Denhollander (29:46):
I think there are a couple of things
that really need to change withthe way we approach scripture.
The first- and really it's tosimply apply our hermeneutic and
our exegesis consistently acrossthe board.
You know, we always hear,"Well,let scripture interpret
scripture.
Let scripture interpretscripture," and the importance
of taking the full counsel ofscripture when we're
interpreting a passage.
We talk all the time about theimportance of being very
(30:08):
accurate and precise with theexegesis, making sure we
understand the context and theculture and the words that are
being used and the differentways they can be interpreted,
not because culture determinestruth, but because it informs
our understanding of what'staking place in that passage.
And unfortunately, we oftendon't see that type of care when
it comes to passages directed atwomen and passages directed at
(30:29):
sexual assault.
And oftentimes even in the waythat we wield those theological
concepts against abuse victims,the dichotomy that's often
presented between forgivenessand justice is an excellent
example of this.
Oftentimes, sexual abusevictims, particularly those that
may be struggling with deepanger or deep grief at what they
have been through- the responseto them is just a blanket
(30:49):
command to not be angry, to notbe bitter, to forgive.
Victims that pursue justice inthe civil or criminal courts-
it's not uncommon for them to betold that they're being
vindictive or unforgiving.
And we pit those concepts offorgiveness and justice against
each other as if they'redichotomous, when in fact both
are found in the character andthe person of Christ.
Both are found as integralcomponents of the gospel.
(31:11):
Both are found in the nature ofGod.
We're not taking a fully orbedapproach to justice and
forgiveness.
We're not allowing scripture tointerpret scripture in how we
teach forgiveness and in how wehandle the concepts of justice.
You can see this kind of justvery sloppy exegesis when it
comes to some of the OldTestament passages on what it
(31:32):
means to, for example, be abiblical witness.
We always hear this just veryflippant,"Well, only on the
testimony of two witnesses canwe have a conviction." And the
first thing that that reallymisses is that there is a
principle behind that scripture.
It was never intended to be aliteral,"The courts can't do
anything ever, unless there aretwo people who see it." And we
(31:53):
can tell that when we look athow the Old Testament passages
talk about even the Hebraiccourts, for example: if a man is
trapping wood and hasn'tproperly secured his ax handle
and the ax handle flies off andit hits his neighbor in the
head, there are very, veryspecific prescriptions for
what's to be done in that case,but you're allowed to take the
identity of the ax handle as oneof your witnesses.
(32:14):
You don't literally have to havetwo neighbors who saw the ax
handle fly off and strike thethird person in the head.
So you can tell that some ofthose passages are giving
principles for justice.
It's the idea that,"Hey, you'vegot to look at the evidence.
You don't take an accusationwithout any evidence.
You have to have witnesses." Butscripture actually defines
witnesses not just as somebodywho's seen it, but as somebody
who has come to know of thefacts.
(32:36):
So if we are going to letscripture interpret scripture,
it would give us a much betterand richer understanding of what
that passage was intended tomean and how it's applied.
But oftentimes we don't takethat level of care when it comes
to the biblical passages onjustice, especially as it
relates to sexual assault.
And I do think it's interestingto note that there's by and
large with sexual assault- Idon't think we would have a
(32:57):
problem in our churches if thepastor walks in, for example, on
a deacon holding a gun, havingjust shot a congregant-
hypothetical scenario- we're notgoing to say,"Hey, you can't
hold that deacon accountablebecause you didn't have two
people who saw him shoot thecongregant." We know better, and
yet in the Southern BaptistConvention and in many other
(33:19):
denominations, witnesses whohave come forward with
allegations of sexual abuse whohave prior disclosures, who have
people who have come to know,who fit the biblical definition
of a witness, who have some ofthe types of evidence that we
would look for trauma symptoms-neurologic damage- Those things
are not understood to be awitness or evidence in
scripture, because we're justflat out sloppy with how we
(33:40):
handle scripture, and we handleit very inconsistently when it
comes to sexual abuse versusother activities.
That level of sloppiness isincredibly damaging because it
not only misrepresents thecharacter and nature of God and
misrepresents scripture, but italso does incredible damage to
God's children, and it allowspredators to remain in positions
where they can continue abusingand preying on God's children.
Amy Mantravadi (34:03):
Yeah.
And you mentioned the OldTestament in particular.
As I get older and go back andread so many of these stories
again and again- I've beenrecently reading some through
Genesis again, and it's justamazing how many times there are
issues or occasions wherebasically a woman is put in
(34:27):
sexual jeopardy for whateverselfish reason of the man.
If you have- either when Lotoffers up his daughters to the
men of Sodom, or the many timesthat Abraham and Isaac always
say that their wife is theirsister, because they don't want
(34:50):
anything bad to happen to him,they don't seem to care what
happens to their wives.
So it's definitely there to beaddressed, but I think for
whatever reason, we don't alwayssee it.
And I'm trying to think of anytime growing up when I heard
this kind of thing mentioned ina sermon, and I don't mean that
(35:10):
as a particular indictmentagainst the churches I went to,
but I think it's common acrossall churches.
So moving on, many people oftenspeculate that the church's
teachings on gender have openedthe door for abuse or encouraged
the covering up of abuse, andhere I'm referring specifically
(35:30):
to a more conservative end ofthe church.
Do you think there is anysubstance to those claims and if
so, what would need to be done?
Rachael Denhollander (35:41):
I don't think we can get around how much
that really has happened,because in a lot of the
conservative churches' teachingsof complementarianism and of
their understanding ofmale-female authority, husband
and wife submission, pastoralauthority, congregants'
submission, what ultimately hashappened is that the wife is
only allowed to have God-givenrights when it's derived from
(36:01):
her husband.
So a good example of this is avery prominent teacher who I
have a lot of respect for by andlarge, but this teacher did a
question and answer session onwhat to do in a domestic abuse
situation.
And the first go around, theteacher did not even mention
reporting to the police.
He said she may need to endurebeing smacked around for a
night, and then if it waspersisted that she should go to
(36:23):
the elders.
Going to the police was not evenmentioned.
After multiple years of beingpushed for a clarification to
that point and to urge reportingto the police when you have
criminal felon- when you havefelony abuse, criminal abuse
taking place, the teacher thendid issue a clarifying
statement, but his entireperspective on why the wife
should go to the police wasbecause she was also in
(36:44):
submission to the civilauthorities that God had
ordained, and if she allowed herhusband to continue beating her,
then she was complicitessentially in his abuse and not
submitting to the civilauthorities by not telling them.
Her entire ability to appeal forhelp, to appeal for justice was
derived from her status as beingsubmissive, not derived from her
status as being a daughter ofthe King- not derived from her
(37:07):
status as being an image bearer,but derived from her role as
submissive.
That is unbiblical and isungodly and is not justice, and
it absolutely is the type ofteaching that keeps a woman in a
situation where she feels likeshe cannot reach out for help.
That teaches pastors to counselin a way that keeps women in
abusive situations.
(37:29):
So, yes, I think we do need toown that there are absolutely
ways that conservative theologyhas not only opened the door for
but has paved the path for abuseand the cover-up of abuse.
You cannot look at what so manyprominent people are teaching in
the abusive dynamics and walkaway from that concept.
Amy Mantravadi (37:49):
Yeah, and it's interesting, cause I earlier
today I conducted an interviewwith Kristen Kobes du Mez.
That interview will be comingout before this one, I think,
but I kind of asked her the samequestion and it can be very
difficult to give a straight upand down, yes or no answer to
(38:10):
this question, becauseespecially the complementarian
movement is pretty broad andthings people define as
complementarian is pretty broad.
But like you say, when you getto the end of the spectrum where
just being a woman is defined asbeing submissive, as it is in
the nature of a woman to besubmissive to any male that she
(38:33):
comes in contact, you see howthat could very easily open up
the door for it to be very hardfor people to get out of abusive
situations.
And oftentimes you'll see withthat kind of theology, there
will be the same treatment ofchildren towards their parents
or of all congregants topastors.
(38:54):
I mean, that could be thehardest of all: if you have a
pastor who's done somethinginappropriate, because you have
that authority over the wholechurch.
So I think it happens when wetake biblical teachings about
authority and stretch them andforce them to bear too much of a
weight that was never intendedfor them.
(39:15):
They become the lens throughwhich we see everything else,
which they weren't intended tobe.
So I think that you make a goodpoint about that.
Rachael Denhollander (39:23):
Yeah.
And unfortunately, I think it'sa lot less fringe than we want
to think it is.
Amy Mantravadi (39:27):
Yes.
Well, that was another thingthat I talked about in the other
interview too.
So yeah, it's something thatseems to keep coming up.
So in the wake of the#MeToo and#ChurchToo movements, do you see
any encouraging signs?
Are we getting any better atpreventing and responding to
sexual abuse than we used to be?
Rachael Denhollander (39:52):
Yes and no.
I am encouraged that we arehaving the conversations more.
I think there is a somewhatgrowing awareness.
There is a lot of reticence towant to be honest about the
why's.
"Why do we have this problem inthe Church?" And a very strong
push to move anybody who hasthese concerns or who is active
(40:16):
on these issues into a"othercamp." The real benchmark for
how much we understand and careabout abuse is what we do when
it's in our own community, andwe're not doing a great job in
our own community still.
When I first- actually, we're atthe three-year anniversary, just
two days after the three-yearanniversary of when I came
(40:38):
forward about Larry.
So it is three years to the day,I believe, that the Christianity
Today article about SovereignGrace Churches came out.
In that article, I said if I hadbeen abused by someone in the
Sovereign Grace network and myabuse had been mishandled by
C.J.
Mahaney or another elder in theSovereign Grace Churches, I
wouldn't be being reviled rightnow as a hero for preaching the
(41:00):
gospel.
I would be being shoved out thechurch door as fast as I could,
and my abusers would be beingprayed for from the pulpit,
because that's exactly whathappened to the Sovereign Grace
victims.
Yeah, that's what I said in myinterview with Christianity
Today, and the backlash was soswift and so fast.
It's exactly what everybody did.
And that's just one example, butthere are pastors I know who
(41:21):
have lost out on bookendorsements because they
support my work.
There are pastors and leadersand professors in the circles
that we move in who say veryvindictive and terrible- despite
having completely refused toengage with my work or any
evidence I've presented, becauseit's not comfortable to do so.
Everybody wants abuse to be theconvenient whipping post for the
(41:45):
other camp, whatever that othercamp may be, because it's safe
when it's in the other camp.
It does not cost you to careabout when it's in the other
camp.
It does not challenge yourbeliefs or your ideas or your
relationships when it's in theother camp, but how much we do
when it's in our own community,how willing we are to speak up,
(42:06):
how able we are to see the truthin our own community: that's the
real benchmark, and we're notdoing great.
We're not doing great.
Amy Mantravadi (42:16):
Yeah.
Sigh, heavy sigh.
I think that's true, and I'vecertainly thought about what
would happen if someone reportedsexual abuse at my church or
with any of the organizations orchurches that I care about.
And it's something that Iactually talked a little bit
(42:40):
with people at my church, and Ishould more certainly, but I
think it would be a good thingfor anybody, maybe even before
you have to come forward with anactual report of sexual abuse,
come to them with ahypothetical.
"If you heard such and such,what is the church policy?
(43:00):
What would we do about that?"And probably from the answer,
you could start to derive alittle bit of where the church
is as far as its culture, butcertainly then when such a thing
actually happens, you see ifpeople actually abide by what
they're telling you.
Rachael Denhollander (43:20):
Yeah, that's a good benchmark and
watching whether or not yourpastor or leader is consistent
in what they call out.
So for example, conservativeswere very consistent in calling
out sexual abuse with BillClinton, and rightly so.
Conservatives were veryconsistent in calling out some
of the ways that Hillary hasallegedly silenced the women
(43:40):
that Bill abused in some of herwork as an attorney: just
decimating childhood sexualassault survivors on the witness
stand and laughing about it.
We have recorded audio tapes.
Conservatives were veryconsistent in calling those
things out.
We were not consistent at allwhen there are even more
accusations in"our own party."We were not consistent when
(44:02):
there were allegations againstprominent Christian leaders like
Ravi Zacharias.
When you can see a Christianleader who is calling out people
in the other camp that is deadsilent when the same or worse or
more credible allegations arecoming out against people in
their own camp, we have aproblem.
And that tells you what you needto know about how much that
(44:24):
leader understands dynamics ofabuse and how they're going to
respond when it would cost.
Amy Mantravadi (44:30):
Well, so very true.
And you know, something Istruggle with emotionally, and I
know a lot of other people haveas well: just the seeming
hypocrisy of the Church andbeing very willing to- for
instance, when there was asexual abuse scandal in the
Catholic Church and we allconcluded immediately,"Well it's
(44:50):
because their priests can't getmarried.
So that's the reason that all ofthe sexual abuse is happening,"
and I'm not saying that theredoesn't need to be review of
their celibacy policies, butwhen all of a sudden it turns
out that the Protestant churchhas just as many problems, if
(45:11):
not more- I think the thingabout the Catholic Church is,
because of the hierarchy, itbecame much more of a mass
coverup, as opposed toProtestant church, you have a
lot of little coverups.
Rachael Denhollander (45:23):
It's actually harder to track.
Amy Mantravadi (45:26):
Yeah, so I think it is very telling when you see
how people respond one way andin one situation another.
But we all have our blind spotsfor sure.
The question is, when you revealpeople's blind spots to them,
how do they respond?
Did they think about it andconsider it and eventually
repent, or did they just doubledown and refuse to be in any way
(45:50):
made uncomfortable by that?
So you've done so much over thepast few years to advocate on
behalf of abuse victims.
I'm wondering, what do you haveplanned next?
Rachael Denhollander (46:02):
Oh, goodness.
You know, a wide variety ofthings, anything and everything.
So the boys' book that Jacob andI have worked on: the children's
boys' book that mirrors thelittle girl's book is going to
be coming out within the year,Lord willing, so I'm really
excited about that.
Amy Mantravadi (46:17):
Also very excited to get that for my son,
because we have the girls' book,but I think it will be
especially meaningful for him tohave the boys' book.
Rachael Denhollande (46:28):
Absolutely.
We'll totally send you a copy.
So that's set to come out-really excited about that.
Working on more curriculum withTyndale, so really, really
excited about that.
Doing a lot of speaking andeducating, working with a lot of
non- profits.
We're going to be back at theU.S.
Naval Academy.
Work with a lot of universities.
I'm actually doing quite a bitof consulting- doing crisis
management for organizationsthat are finding themselves in
(46:48):
the scandal, coming alongsidetheir boards and helping them
understand how you balance beinga fiduciary with seeking justice
and being ethically motivated,doing the right thing, being
trauma informed.
Working to help resolve legalissues between corporate counsel
and survivors who have been hurtand asking that question of,
"What does justice look like?
What does restorationrestitution look like for these
people that have been harmed byyour institution in your
(47:10):
organization?" And moving themtowards doing the right thing.
I do a lot of education with barassociations and different
attorneys groups.
We're doing a lot ofcommunication management for
corporations who are in crisis.
Again, helping them ask thatquestion,"What is the right
thing to do?
What do we need to own?
What do we need to..." andreally starting as much as
(47:31):
possible to begin motivatinginstitutions to ask the ethical
questions and to do what isright first and foremost.
So doing a lot of corporateconsulting, doing a lot of
education, still working withwriting, still doing a lot of
volunteer work with variousdenominations and churches, and
then walking alongside severalsurvivors who are very dear to
(47:51):
us.
I think it's important to haveall of those dynamics.
I'm also working on somelegislation- doing some
legislative work.
I'm really blessed to be able totake a very fully orbed approach
to dealing with issues of abuseand to be able to speak into a
lot of different situations a ta lot of different levels, but
also to have people who are verydear to me who we're privileged
to walk alongside.
(48:12):
And then of course, there'shomeschooling our four kids and
married t o my wonderful husbandand you know, normal life t oo.
Amy Mantravadi (48:20):
Yeah.
Well, sometimes I think aboutall the things you do, Rachael,
and I say to myself,"I couldnever do all the things that she
does."
Rachael Denhollander (48:30):
I couldn't by myself either.
Amy Mantravadi (48:33):
It's occurred to me now, as I'm listening to you,
maybe it's been that ice creamthat's been powering you all
along.
Rachael Denhollander (48:42):
It is the secret formula.
Amy Mantravadi (48:42):
And if I could just get some of that ice cream,
then maybe I'd be able to berunning a million miles an hour
too.
So thank you for thatrevelation.
But seriously, I would encourageall listeners: just be in prayer
for you because you do a lot ofgreat work and it's very
(49:03):
challenging work, but I'm justso grateful to have you and
Jacob and the many other peopleyou partner with working on
these important issues for theChurch.
And thank you for coming on tojust answer some questions and
hopefully it will help a lot ofpeople to think about these
issues.
Rachael Denhollande (49:21):
Absolutely.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Jon Guerra (49:49):
[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that
it will roll in abundance, andthat you're building a city
where we arrive as immigrantsand you call us citizens and you
welcome us as children home.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (49:51):
It was an honor and a pleasure to speak with
Rachael about these importantissues.
Be sure to look for all herbooks wherever you tend to make
such purchases and stay tuned asshe is taking on new endeavors
all the time.
Rachael's heart beats powerfullyon behalf of the least of these,
and I pray that the Church as awhole will continue to learn and
grow in this area.
The music you've been hearing isthe song"Citizens" by Jon
(50:13):
Guerra.
He's hinted that he'll have somenew music coming out in 2021, so
there's some good news for usall.
This season of the(A)Millennialpodcast was written and produced
by yours truly.
You may tweet congratulatorystatements@AmyMantravadi and
send any and all complaints bymail to 1600 Pennsylvania
Avenue, Washington, DC, UnitedStates of America.
(50:35):
Ratings and reviews are veryhelpful when people look for a
new podcast to listen to, so ifyou haven't done so yet, please
leave your honest opinion aboutthis podcast on whichever
platform you use.
I would not have been able to dothis season of(A)Millennial if
my husband, Jai, had not beenwilling to take care of our son
while I conducted theinterviews.
I'm exceedingly grateful to himand to all the kind guests who
(50:56):
contributed to these theologicalconversations.
I will close us out today withan admonition from the Epistle
to the Hebrews.
"Therefore, since we have sogreat a cloud of witnesses
surrounding us, let us also layaside every encumbrance and the
sin which so easily entangles usand let us run with endurance
the race that is set before us,fixing our eyes on Jesus, the
(51:17):
author and perfecter of faith,who for the joy set before him
endured the cross, despising theshame, and has sat down at the
right hand of the throne ofGod." Amen.
Come, Lord Jesus.
May his grace be with you nowand forevermore.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (51:34):
[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always
living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
(51:55):
[MUSIC STOPS]
[ MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you from Dayton, Ohio,
home of the First Four.
No, not the Final Four- theFirst Four.
I wish I could tell you thismeans we are the hometown of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,but alas, I'm talking about
(00:48):
college basketball.
Well, there's nothing wrong witha little basketball, especially
in these sport deprived times.
Every year but last year, theUniversity of Dayton's
basketball arena has hosted theopening night of the NCAA
basketball tournament, popularlyknown as March Dadness.
We have the nature of thetournament bracket to thank for
the First Four, because while astandard bracket must increase
(01:10):
to the power of two, the NCAAwanted a different number of
teams to compete.
So we have our standard bracketof 64 teams, or two to the power
of six, plus a few extra.
Dayton's role as host of theseopening games allowed it to also
become the host of PresidentBarack Obama and UK Prime
Minister David Cameron in 2012,when the American leader decided
(01:31):
to introduce his Britishcounterpart to a game of
basketball.
No word on if Cameron was everable to teach Obama the rules of
cricket.
Today's guest, RachaelDenhollander, has her own strong
links to the sporting world, butnot for anything she achieved in
a meet.
She has been honored by ESPN andSports Illustrated for her role
in bringing a horrific sexualpredator to justice.
(01:52):
I could fill an entire podcastor ten just talking to her about
that experience, but today myprimary concern is not to look
back, but forward.
Rachael was assaulted when shewas still a minor, and it is a
sad fact that children are oftentargets of sexual predators.
While obtaining accuratestatistics in regard to sexual
violence is quite difficult,data released by the Centers for
(02:14):
Disease Control and Preventionin 2010 indicated that among
self-identified victims ofcompleted rape, 42.2% of females
suffered this violence for thefirst time before age 18 while a
full 27.8% of male victims wereraped for the first time before
age 10.
In another study put out in 2003by the National Institute of
(02:35):
Justice, part of the U.D.
Department of Justice, whichinterviewed those between the
ages of 12 and 17, found that74% of those who reported having
been sexually assaulted wereabused by someone they knew.
While there's not as muchinformation available about
victims younger than this, butwe can all think of high profile
cases where the victims werevery young.
(02:56):
The identified victims of formerPenn State coach Jerry Sandusky
were as young as seven or eightyears old.
Now, I like you don't want toeven think about the possibility
of my son or anyone else's smallchild being abused in this
matter, and by the grace of God,I hope such things will not
happen.
But the fact remains that thereare people in the world who not
only engage in perverted sexualdesires, but also possess the
(03:19):
devious nature required to breaksome of our society's few
remaining restraints upon sexualbehavior and violate the most
vulnerable among us.
We pray to God for theirrepentance and salvation, but we
must also understand the waythat a mind consumed by sin
works.
Such persons take advantage ofthe trust and kindness of others
who have not lived so long inthe same darkness.
(03:40):
That is why I will be speakingto Rachael today about how we as
Christians must defend the leastof these in our homes, our
churches, and our society.
I know there are some people whofeel uncomfortable with the term
oppression today because theyassociate it with certain
political connotations orpositions, but it's important to
remember that the Bible speaksabout justice for the oppressed
(04:00):
as defined by God.
One passage of scripture thatalways strikes my heart when I
read it is Ecclesiastes chapterfour, verses one through three,
where the writer says,"Then Ilooked again at all the acts of
oppression which were being doneunder the sun, and behold, I saw
the tears of the oppressed andthat they had no one to comfort
them, and power was on the sideof their oppressors, but they
(04:23):
had no one to comfort them.
So I congratulated the dead whowere already dead more than the
living who are still living, butbetter off than both of them is
the one who has never existed,who has never seen the evil
activity that is done under thesun." That is the world we live
in (04:39):
a world in which sin is rampant and the image of God in
all human beings is notrespected often enough.
The people of ancient Israel hada habit of honoring God in many
ways, but forgetting to promotejustice and righteousness for
the least of these.
Through his prophets, Godcondemned them for this
behavior, as in these words hespoke through the prophet Amos.
"I hate, I reject yourfestivals, nor do I delight in
(05:04):
your festive assemblies.
Even though you offer up to meburnt offerings and your grain
offerings, I will not acceptthem, and I will not even look
at the peace offerings of yourfattened oxen.
Take away from me the noise ofyour songs.
I will not even listen to thesound of your harps, but let
justice roll out like waters andrighteousness like an ever
flowing stream." Jesus Christalso proclaimed himself to be on
(05:29):
the side of those who seekjustice, proclaiming,"Will God
not bring about justice for hiselect, who cry out to him day
and night?
And will he delay long for them?
I tell you that he will bringabout justice for them quickly.
However, when the Son of Mancomes, will he find faith on the
earth?" Our test then is to befaithful in promoting justice
(05:50):
for those victimized by sexualabuse and to seek to protect the
most vulnerable around us.
With those scripture passages inmind, let's head on to the
interview.
Jon Guerra (05:57):
[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]
Amy Mantravadi (06:09):
And I'm here with Rachael Denhollander.
Rachael was the first person tospeak out publicly against the
sexual abuses of Larry Nassar,who for many years had been a
prominent doctor, connected toMichigan State University and
treated the USA women'sgymnastics team.
She used her knowledge of thelegal system to help build the
case against Nassar, empoweringhundreds of other women to come
(06:30):
forward and speak about how theyhad also been abused.
Nassar's convictions for sexualcrimes have led to an ongoing
series of investigations andlawsuits related to Michigan
State University, USAGymnastics, and the U.S.
Olympic Committee, as well ascontributing to the greater
public reckoning about how wedeal with such abuses.
She continues to be a leadingadvocate on behalf of sexual
(06:50):
abuse, victims and society as awhole, and especially in the
Church.
In addition to giving interviewsand speaking at conferences, she
has worked directly with thosevictimized by abuse and help to
create resources for individualsand churches to think about how
we protect and care for thosearound us.
Along the way she is partneredwith many other experts in the
fields of criminal justice andtrauma care.
Rachael is the mother of fourchildren and is closely
(07:13):
supported by her husband, Jacoband among the honors she's
received.
She was the Sports IllustratedInspiration of the Year.
She was one of the TIME 100 mostinfluential people, a Glamour
Women of the Year recipient, ajoint recipient of ESPN Arthur
Ashe Courage Award.
And she was named Michiganian ofthe Year by the Detroit News.
(07:33):
And her published works includeWhat is a Girl Worth?: My Story
of Breaking the Silence andExposing the Truth about Larry
Nassar and USA Gymnastics,Discover Your True Worth, which
is a devotional series, Becominga Church that Cares Well for the
Abused, to which she was acontributor, and her book for
children, How Much is a LittleGirl Worth?
(07:53):
And she's also appeared in theNetflix documentary Athlete A.
You can find her on socialmedia, on Twitter
@R_Denhollander, on Instagram@RachaelDenhollander, and on
Facebook@OfficialDenhollander.
So Rachael, before we get intothe rest of the questions, I
wanted to start out with onethat was very hard hitting.
(08:15):
So the world knows you as aselfless and honorable advocate
on behalf of abuse victims, buti s i t not true that you have
actually been motivated thiswhole time by something else,
namely your desire forHaagen-Dazs non-dairy ice cream?
Rachael Denhollander (08:32):
Ice cream.
You know what, I have toconfess, and it's always better
to come clean about thesethings.
The Haagen Dazs non-dairy icecream is at the top.
And I mean, it's just- there'sjust not a whole lot else to
really fight for in the world.
Amy Mantravadi (08:46):
Well, the time you were gracious to have us
over to your home, I believe youactually offered us some of your
non- dairy Haagen-Dazs icecream, which truly-
Rachael Denhollander (09:00):
Shows you how special you are.
Amy Mantravadi (09:00):
It did.
I felt very special at the time,and even more so when I saw on
Twitter you continuing to talkabout how special that was to
you.
So well, thank you.
I don't think I actually hadany.
It seems like when someoneoffers you something that you
know is so special to them, youdon't want to take even any of
(09:22):
it because- and also I mighthave a belief that non-dairy ice
cream, isn't really ice cream,but...
Rachael Denhollander (09:29):
I know, but we need to win you over to
the right side.
Amy Mantravadi (09:31):
Yes, well...
Rachael Denhollander (09:31):
Gonna work on it.
Amy Mantravadi (09:31):
There may be room for persuasion there.
We'll see about that.
So switching to a more serioustopic, I could talk to you about
so many different things today,but I was particularly
interested to hear what you hadto say about how we discuss
(09:51):
sexual abuse with children.
Particularly becoming a mothermyself within the past year,
that was something that was ofinterest to me.
So just from your experience andin your opinion, when is it
appropriate to begin talking tochildren about sexual matters,
particularly sexual abuse?
Rachael Denhollander (10:10):
You know, a lot earlier than we think.
Really the concepts that ourkids need to be able to
recognize and identify andverbalize sexual abuse, those
concepts are concepts we startinstilling at them right away:
concepts of bodily autonomy,concepts of consent, knowing
that if something ever makesthem feel uncomfortable or
unsafe, or they're asked to keepit a secret, or if they just
(10:31):
don't understand it, thatthere's a safe place to talk to-
that they have adults in theirlife that will listen to them.
There are a couple of things myhusband and I do, and that my
parents did that I foundincredibly helpful.
The first is just to keep opencommunication.
Our kids have to know that thethings that they're thinking
about and the things thatthey're feeling- that it
matters, even when I'm in themiddle of parenting the
(10:52):
umpteenth meltdown for the daywith a four or five-year-old
over something that I'm just inthe back of my mind and going,
"Why is this a big deal?" Partof what I keep in mind is if I
want them to come to me with thebig things, they have to know
that their thoughts and theirheart and their feelings are
safe with the things that theyfeel like are huge.
What is huge in their world isreally huge to them.
(11:14):
And so the very firstfoundational thing really is
just having that opencommunication with your kids,
treating their thoughts andtheir feelings and their
concerns and their voice like itmatters.
In addition to that, we startright away with principles of
bodily autonomy and consent, theimportance of privacy, and the
importance of respecting theirboundaries.
So in our household, we have a,"don't touch without
permission" rule, not even a"funtouch" like tickling or hugging.
(11:38):
You don't touch withoutpermission, and they know that
mommy and daddy will defendthat.
And so that just helps even atthe youngest age, start
enforcing the concept thatnobody has the right to your
body unless you give thempermission for it.
We start with concepts of whatmakes them comfortable, what
makes them feel safe, theimportance of privacy- so really
articulating to them as we'rehelping them on the potty, as
(12:01):
we're changing their diapers, aswe're giving them baths when
they're little and still needthat kind of help, how important
it is that they have privacy.
When our kids make a requestrelated to their bodies or
privacy, we do everything we canto honor that and to verbalize
that that should be honored.
So just an example of this, Ihave- out of my four children,
there was one of them inparticular who really still
(12:21):
needed help in the bathroom at acertain age, but they were very
self-conscious to have anyone inthere at the time.
And so every time I'd bring themto the bathroom, I'd help get
them on the potty and then I'dsay, or my husband or dad or
Jacob would say,"Mommy and daddyare going to leave now so that
you can have some privacy andyou just call us when you're
ready," and we would verbalizeto them every single time we
take them to the bathroom (12:40):
that their privacy mattered and it
should be respected.
This also meant that it wasdifficult sometimes to go out on
dates or to go somewhere withJacob, because this child of
ours was not comfortable withanyone helping them in the
bathroom, even a trustedbabysitter or a trusted family
member.
They just weren't comfortablewith that.
And so we stopped until ourchild was comfortable having
grandma or grandpa or a trustedaunt help them on the potty.
(13:03):
We would articulate to them,"Mommy and daddy, aren't going
to go out on a date tonight sothat we can make sure we're home
and that you're comfortable withthe people who are around you."
And so we verbalized to themover and over again how much
that mattered.
If someone violates theirboundaries or their choices or
their privacy, we make sure thatwe defend that right away, even
if it seems like it reallyshouldn't be that big of a deal.
(13:24):
Everybody who's a parent has hadthe,"Mom he's poking me! Mom,
he's touching me," argument intheir house where you're like,
"This is not the issue thatyou're making it out to be," but
because their principles ofbodily autonomy are so
important, we do defend that.
And so those concepts areconcepts that the youngest
children can get, even asbabies, that they can
(13:45):
internalize and that they canverbalize.
And then as they grow, thesexuality that their body can
have just to start, our sexualconcepts, their sexual knowledge
grows as they age, but it buildsoff of their same foundations of
consent and autonomy and privacyand comfortableness.
Amy Mantravadi (14:04):
Yeah.
I think that's really usefulbecause both from statistics
I've read and just hearingpeople share about their own
experiences who have beensexually abused as children,
usually it's going to be someonethey know, and someone very
close" someone who would havetheir trust in some way or
another.
So maybe to us as adults, itseems very obvious like,"Well,
(14:28):
of course you know when someonewas touching you in a way that
was bad." But actually, no, mostof the time, for kids in
particular, it could be veryconfusing because they're in
this world where- when peopleare dealing with children,
they're hugging them and, likeyou said, tickling and wrestling
with them all the time.
And for a child who has noconcept of sexual touch, it can
(14:52):
be maybe in their mind, it's avery- they don't understand when
it's becoming something that'sinappropriate.
So I think that those are somegood principles to keep in mind
with children.
In addition to that, you'vealready touched on this a bit,
but what kinds of things do weneed to tell our children to
help them understand the dangersto which they might be subject?
Rachael Denhollander (15:16):
So the other thing that we do a lot is
we're really careful how we talkabout their body.
We talk about it in a verypositive way.
We talk about their privateareas in a very positive way,
and we talk about them as beingworthy of respect.
These are extra special parts ofyour body that should be
respected- that deserve to berespected.
And so that crosses into thoseconcepts of,"This is why we
don't violate your privacy.
(15:38):
This is why nobody's allowed totouch without permission,
especially these areas becausethey are worth extra special
respect, and they're just foryou." And then we also make sure
that as we're talking aboutprivacy and boundaries, private
touch, all of those things, thatwe're using words that a child
could encounter (15:54):
concepts a child could encounter if they
experience abuse.
Not every child feels fearinitially upon sexual assault.
They might not be old enough tofeel that fear, or it might come
up even in a context liketickling or playful touch where
they're more confused thananything.
They just don't know what tomake of it.
So we use words like,"If youever feel confused about the way
(16:17):
someone is touching you, or youfeel unsafe, or you feel
uncomfortable, or you're justnot sure, we want you to know
that you can always come andtalk to mommy and daddy about
that.
And so we use words that aremuch milder than the words that
we typically think of withsexual abuse, because a lot of
times when kids experiencesexual abuse, it doesn't
necessarily immediately triggerpain or fear.
(16:38):
We certainly see times that itdoes, but it doesn't always.
And a lot of the times, part ofthe reason kids don't disclose
is because they don't recognizewhat they've experienced yet, or
it doesn't feel quite right, butthey don't have the words to put
with it.
So we try to help them identifythose words- uncomfortable,
confused, not sure- the types ofthings that they might
experience if they were toexperience abuse with someone
(17:00):
who's close, who they wouldtrust.
Amy Mantravadi (17:03):
And particularly with very small children, there
can be a real instinct that wewant to protect them and just
not have them have to worryabout things, and we don't want
to introduce them to sexualmatters too young.
And I think it's certainly truethat you don't want to get into
certain sexual matters with ayoung child, but people who
(17:23):
abuse children are going to takeadvantage of their ignorance-
are going to take advantage ofthe fact that they're not
entirely sure what's going on.
So I think like you said, that'swhy it's so important to find a
way to- without getting graphic,to put it in a way that they can
understand, so they'll start toclue in if- or at least know
(17:46):
enough to say something to you,if anything were to happen to
them.
So turning it around from theperspective of a parent or
anyone who's talking to a child,if a child tells you that
someone has touched theminappropriately or made them
feel threatened in some way, orsomething was confusing or
uncomfortable, what should theresponse look like?
Rachael Denhollander (18:10):
Yeah.
I think the first thing to knowis that it's pretty rare
actually to get an actualdisclosure of abuse from a
child, because most of the timethe child doesn't recognize it,
or doesn't have the words to putwith what they've experienced,
or for children who are livingin just horrific abusive
situations, their entireperception of normal has been so
distorted.
They don't know what to callwhat they're experiencing.
They don't know what's somethingthey shouldn't experience: it's
(18:30):
their entire reality.
So it's actually pretty rare toget a disclosure of abuse.
What's more common at times isto see the warning signs of
abuse or to hear a partialdisclosure.
A child will say somethingthat's not quite right or
something that you don't quiteunderstand.
"I don't want to see so-and-so,""This person makes me
uncomfortable," or they'll justarticulate not wanting to be
around a certain person or in acertain place.
(18:53):
Those are the types of things topay attention to and just watch
closely and ask some follow upquestions.
If you do receive a disclosureof abuse or something that
sounds abusive, the mostimportant information to find
out is who and when.
You don't want to go prying fordetails, as hard as that is.
That type of information reallydoes need to come from a
(19:13):
forensic investigator to ensurethat the child's memory and
child's recall isn't interferedwith in a way that's
unintentionally suggestive, andalso to ensure that the child
isn't retraumatized by having totell the story over and over
again.
But if you can find out the whoand the when- especially the
when- that will help give you anidea of what you might need to
protect the child from andsituations that the child might
(19:34):
need to be pulled out ofimmediately, especially in the
cases where it may be a schoolteacher or custodial caregiver,
someone that they might be incontact with relatively soon.
That also gives you criticalinformation to report to the
police and also to CPS, if it'sa custodial person involved, or
if that person has custody ofanother child.
And so that's when that triggersthat type of reporting.
(19:55):
So knowing the who and the whenis really the most important
just basic information, but it'simportant when you ask those
questions to not show shock orfear or disgust: to be very,
very comforting and calm andsafe place for that child, to be
very reassuring, to help mirrorto an extent their emotions.
If the child is showing grief,you mirror grief-"I'm so sorry
that that happened to you.
(20:16):
That's not okay."- to helpinstill that the telling was the
right thing, to help the childfeel safe in your presence, and
to help them know that you'regoing to do whatever you can to
keep them safe.
And then of course, the stepsthat you take from there include
mandatory reporting to thepolice and likely to CPS, but
also taking whatever steps mightbe necessary to make sure the
(20:36):
child isn't encountering thatperson.
Amy Mantravadi (20:39):
Yeah.
I think that's helpful, becauseas we see so often from people
who don't take the right stepswhen they receive a report of
abuse, some of it is certainlynefarious, but I think there are
also some well-meaning peoplewho either just don't know, or
for whatever reason, maybe theirpersonality or their own
(21:01):
experiences lead them to eitherplay things down and ignore
them, or to immediately panicand start talking to all kinds
of people.
And like you said, making thekid tell their story again and
again, things that could be moretraumatic but necessary.
So I think that's- go ahead...
Rachael Denhollander (21:20):
Yeah.
Just the other thing that'sreally important to understand
is because most of the timeabuse occurs with someone the
child knows, oftentimes there'san emotional connection to that
person, and if the childrealizes that that person might
get in trouble, it can causethem to very quickly retreat.
And that might seemcounterintuitive to an adult
who's looking at the situationwith very clear eyes and
understands how manipulative andevil the abuser is being, but to
(21:42):
the child, oftentimes this issomebody they care about.
They don't want to get thatperson into trouble.
And so if they realize by yourresponse that they've gotten
somebody into trouble, eitherbecause they're afraid of that
person, or because they'reemotionally connected to that
person, it could cause them toback off.
So again, you just want to bevery careful with the way you're
responding to that child, to tryto help prevent that from
(22:02):
happening, to help the childknow that they're safe and that
it was the right thing to do.
And also not to kick in thatfear response for having spoken
up (22:08):
fear of getting someone in trouble or fear of retaliation
from the abuser.
Amy Mantravadi (22:12):
That's another good point.
Transitioning a little bit tohow the church tends to deal
with cases of sexual abuse, whatare some of the typical errors
that churches tend to makeregarding sexual abuse, either
in not preventing abuse or inmishandling reports of abuse?
I mean, we hear about thesethings happening all the time,
(22:34):
and you've been involved intrying to help a lot of people
who have had this happen.
So what kind of patterns do yousee emerging throughout the
church?
Rachael Denhollander (22:44):
Yeah.
How long is your podcast?
How much time do we have here?
Amy Mantravadi (22:47):
Take as much time as you like- within reason,
within reason.
I do have to go to bedeventually.
Rachael Denhollander (22:54):
I know I hear you.
Elora be up at some point heretonight.
You know, the prevention pieceis really interesting because a
lot of times when people askabout prevention, they're
thinking policy.
"What kind of policy do I needto have in place for my nursery,
for my Sunday school?" And thoseare important.
Policy is important, but policyis only as good as the people
you have enforcing it.
It's only as effective as theculture of your congregation.
(23:15):
And a lot of times when peopleare thinking policy, there's
massive gaps in how they'rethinking policy.
It's really common for churchesto look at,"What's our church
nursery policy?
What's our Sunday schoolpolicy?" It's not so common for
them to ask questions right nowlike,"What's our social media
policy for our workers in theteen and college group?" In a
vulnerable population whereyou're going to have a lot of
ability for privatecommunication if we don't have a
(23:37):
policy about that.
So there are places we havepolicy gaps, but the prevention
side really is every bit as muchabout the culture of your church
and your church's understandingof abuse for a couple of
reasons.
One, like I already mentioned,the policy is only as good as
the people who enforce it.
You can have the best policy inthe world, but if your church
doesn't understand what thatpolicy means, they don't
understand why you have thatpolicy, and there's not internal
(24:00):
motivation to follow it, it'svery unlikely for the policy to
have much effect in the end.
It's way too easy to let yourguard down, especially in a
community like the church wheremost of the time, there's some
sort of emotional bond betweenthe people there.
You feel like you know eachother.
You feel like you're in a safeplace.
That's the easiest type of placeto let policy slip.
(24:20):
And so the internal motivationand understanding that comes
behind the policy, the culturearound the policy is every bit
as important, if not more so,than what you have down on
paper.
And so that really leads us tothe cultural aspect and the
relationship to prevention.
One thing that we know aboutabusers after decades of study
is that abusers targetcommunities and target
(24:40):
individuals who they believe arevulnerable, and that churches
and religious organizations areone of the top targets for
abusers, because they know thatwe often teach concepts of
unlimited authority, I think toa very unbiblical extent, but
it's something that is veryuseful to an abuser: this
concept of unlimited authority.
We teach grace and forgiveness.
(25:02):
We teach restoration andoftentimes those theological
concepts, which are beautifulwhen found in scripture, are
wielded in a way that lackscomplete knowledge about abusive
dynamics and results in asituation where abusers are
restored to positions where theycan continue abusing or victims
are silenced with amisapplication of forgiveness or
teachings against bitterness orgossip.
(25:22):
And so abusers seek out thereligious communities for those
reasons (25:25):
particularly conservative, evangelical
communities.
And so the culture you have inyour church surrounding abuse
and surrounding those theologiesis some of the most critical
aspects of prevention, becausethat's what signals to an abuser
that they will be safe (25:38):
that if someone speaks up, they're
likely to not be listened to-that they can manipulate their
way into demonstratingrepentance and that their abuse
is not likely to be broughtforward.
Conversely, a church thathandles that theology correctly,
that is setting a culture ofjustice and righteousness, that
understands abuse and abusivedynamics and articulates that
(26:00):
publicly and clearly is going tosignal to an abuser that this is
not a safe place to prey uponthe congregation.
And so that cultural aspect isreally key for prevention.
It's also key for responsebecause victims are always
looking to see where they feelsafe.
They're looking to see how theirpastors and how their fellow
congregants understand theseconcepts.
(26:21):
They're looking to see how wetalk about victims of abuse in
other contexts, because theyknow,"Oh, that's what they would
think about me or that's howmuch they would understand about
the abusive dynamics in mysituation." And so if you are
hoping to be a safe place forvictims to come forward, to be
able to minister to them, to beable to receive disclosures so
that you can pursue and fightfor justice, the culture that
(26:42):
you set in your church and theway you understand those
theologies is also key for theresponse aspect.
It really takes both.
Amy Mantravadi (26:51):
And I think just following up on one comment you
made there about even themessages that we send to victims
in our church- and every churchhas victims of sexual abuse if
it's a church of any size.
And I don't want to name anynames, but I had an occassion
(27:12):
within the past few months onTwitter where a major Christian
leader was talking about theaccusations that had been made
against Brett Kavanaugh when hewas a nominee for the Supreme
Court, and basically saying itwas all a smear campaign.
And I understand maybe from apolitical point of view why
(27:38):
people may feel certain wayabout that from a political
point of view.
But I tried to look at it as if,"Well, what if I was a sexual
abuse victim and I read that andI may not know all the details
of the political controversyover this?
All I know is that someoneaccused a powerful man of a
(27:59):
sexual assault, and it seemslike you're just automatically
assuming that it wasn't true.
So should I come to you ifsomeone powerful has abused me?"
I think that kind of would havea real chilling effect on
people.
And I'm sure the person whoposted it wasn't even thinking
(28:21):
in that.
He was just like,"Well, this isa terrible thing that Democrats
have done." But you know, ourwords do have an effect, and
certainly abuse victims who arealready going to be sort of
laser-focused on anything that'ssaid pertaining to that, because
it just is so close to theirheart and soul.
(28:44):
If they're not feelingcomfortable, if they don't feel
like they could trust people,that's not someplace they're
going to want to stay, so Ithink that's a good point.
And sort of related to that, thetopic of sexual abuse is not
often mentioned in sermons, andeven biblical passages that
touch on the subject tend to bemishandled in terms of
(29:06):
interpretation.
Just as an aside, in readingyour book- and not the one for
children, but the one that youknow is sort of biographical-
you gave an anecdote about atime that you and Jacob heard a
pastor giving a sermon talkingabout a biblical story where it
(29:27):
basically gave an interpretationof that story that was very
harmful to sexual abuse victims,and I know this is something
that happens a lot.
So what do pastors need to keepin mind when they're preaching
about these passages or thetopic of sexual abuse in
general?
Rachael Denhollander (29:46):
I think there are a couple of things
that really need to change withthe way we approach scripture.
The first- and really it's tosimply apply our hermeneutic and
our exegesis consistently acrossthe board.
You know, we always hear,"Well,let scripture interpret
scripture.
Let scripture interpretscripture," and the importance
of taking the full counsel ofscripture when we're
interpreting a passage.
We talk all the time about theimportance of being very
(30:08):
accurate and precise with theexegesis, making sure we
understand the context and theculture and the words that are
being used and the differentways they can be interpreted,
not because culture determinestruth, but because it informs
our understanding of what'staking place in that passage.
And unfortunately, we oftendon't see that type of care when
it comes to passages directed atwomen and passages directed at
(30:29):
sexual assault.
And oftentimes even in the waythat we wield those theological
concepts against abuse victims,the dichotomy that's often
presented between forgivenessand justice is an excellent
example of this.
Oftentimes, sexual abusevictims, particularly those that
may be struggling with deepanger or deep grief at what they
have been through- the responseto them is just a blanket
(30:49):
command to not be angry, to notbe bitter, to forgive.
Victims that pursue justice inthe civil or criminal courts-
it's not uncommon for them to betold that they're being
vindictive or unforgiving.
And we pit those concepts offorgiveness and justice against
each other as if they'redichotomous, when in fact both
are found in the character andthe person of Christ.
Both are found as integralcomponents of the gospel.
(31:11):
Both are found in the nature ofGod.
We're not taking a fully orbedapproach to justice and
forgiveness.
We're not allowing scripture tointerpret scripture in how we
teach forgiveness and in how wehandle the concepts of justice.
You can see this kind of justvery sloppy exegesis when it
comes to some of the OldTestament passages on what it
(31:32):
means to, for example, be abiblical witness.
We always hear this just veryflippant,"Well, only on the
testimony of two witnesses canwe have a conviction." And the
first thing that that reallymisses is that there is a
principle behind that scripture.
It was never intended to be aliteral,"The courts can't do
anything ever, unless there aretwo people who see it." And we
(31:53):
can tell that when we look athow the Old Testament passages
talk about even the Hebraiccourts, for example: if a man is
trapping wood and hasn'tproperly secured his ax handle
and the ax handle flies off andit hits his neighbor in the
head, there are very, veryspecific prescriptions for
what's to be done in that case,but you're allowed to take the
identity of the ax handle as oneof your witnesses.
(32:14):
You don't literally have to havetwo neighbors who saw the ax
handle fly off and strike thethird person in the head.
So you can tell that some ofthose passages are giving
principles for justice.
It's the idea that,"Hey, you'vegot to look at the evidence.
You don't take an accusationwithout any evidence.
You have to have witnesses." Butscripture actually defines
witnesses not just as somebodywho's seen it, but as somebody
who has come to know of thefacts.
(32:36):
So if we are going to letscripture interpret scripture,
it would give us a much betterand richer understanding of what
that passage was intended tomean and how it's applied.
But oftentimes we don't takethat level of care when it comes
to the biblical passages onjustice, especially as it
relates to sexual assault.
And I do think it's interestingto note that there's by and
large with sexual assault- Idon't think we would have a
(32:57):
problem in our churches if thepastor walks in, for example, on
a deacon holding a gun, havingjust shot a congregant-
hypothetical scenario- we're notgoing to say,"Hey, you can't
hold that deacon accountablebecause you didn't have two
people who saw him shoot thecongregant." We know better, and
yet in the Southern BaptistConvention and in many other
(33:19):
denominations, witnesses whohave come forward with
allegations of sexual abuse whohave prior disclosures, who have
people who have come to know,who fit the biblical definition
of a witness, who have some ofthe types of evidence that we
would look for trauma symptoms-neurologic damage- Those things
are not understood to be awitness or evidence in
scripture, because we're justflat out sloppy with how we
(33:40):
handle scripture, and we handleit very inconsistently when it
comes to sexual abuse versusother activities.
That level of sloppiness isincredibly damaging because it
not only misrepresents thecharacter and nature of God and
misrepresents scripture, but italso does incredible damage to
God's children, and it allowspredators to remain in positions
where they can continue abusingand preying on God's children.
Amy Mantravadi (34:03):
Yeah.
And you mentioned the OldTestament in particular.
As I get older and go back andread so many of these stories
again and again- I've beenrecently reading some through
Genesis again, and it's justamazing how many times there are
issues or occasions wherebasically a woman is put in
(34:27):
sexual jeopardy for whateverselfish reason of the man.
If you have- either when Lotoffers up his daughters to the
men of Sodom, or the many timesthat Abraham and Isaac always
say that their wife is theirsister, because they don't want
(34:50):
anything bad to happen to him,they don't seem to care what
happens to their wives.
So it's definitely there to beaddressed, but I think for
whatever reason, we don't alwayssee it.
And I'm trying to think of anytime growing up when I heard
this kind of thing mentioned ina sermon, and I don't mean that
(35:10):
as a particular indictmentagainst the churches I went to,
but I think it's common acrossall churches.
So moving on, many people oftenspeculate that the church's
teachings on gender have openedthe door for abuse or encouraged
the covering up of abuse, andhere I'm referring specifically
(35:30):
to a more conservative end ofthe church.
Do you think there is anysubstance to those claims and if
so, what would need to be done?
Rachael Denhollander (35:41):
I don't think we can get around how much
that really has happened,because in a lot of the
conservative churches' teachingsof complementarianism and of
their understanding ofmale-female authority, husband
and wife submission, pastoralauthority, congregants'
submission, what ultimately hashappened is that the wife is
only allowed to have God-givenrights when it's derived from
(36:01):
her husband.
So a good example of this is avery prominent teacher who I
have a lot of respect for by andlarge, but this teacher did a
question and answer session onwhat to do in a domestic abuse
situation.
And the first go around, theteacher did not even mention
reporting to the police.
He said she may need to endurebeing smacked around for a
night, and then if it waspersisted that she should go to
(36:23):
the elders.
Going to the police was not evenmentioned.
After multiple years of beingpushed for a clarification to
that point and to urge reportingto the police when you have
criminal felon- when you havefelony abuse, criminal abuse
taking place, the teacher thendid issue a clarifying
statement, but his entireperspective on why the wife
should go to the police wasbecause she was also in
(36:44):
submission to the civilauthorities that God had
ordained, and if she allowed herhusband to continue beating her,
then she was complicitessentially in his abuse and not
submitting to the civilauthorities by not telling them.
Her entire ability to appeal forhelp, to appeal for justice was
derived from her status as beingsubmissive, not derived from her
status as being a daughter ofthe King- not derived from her
(37:07):
status as being an image bearer,but derived from her role as
submissive.
That is unbiblical and isungodly and is not justice, and
it absolutely is the type ofteaching that keeps a woman in a
situation where she feels likeshe cannot reach out for help.
That teaches pastors to counselin a way that keeps women in
abusive situations.
(37:29):
So, yes, I think we do need toown that there are absolutely
ways that conservative theologyhas not only opened the door for
but has paved the path for abuseand the cover-up of abuse.
You cannot look at what so manyprominent people are teaching in
the abusive dynamics and walkaway from that concept.
Amy Mantravadi (37:49):
Yeah, and it's interesting, cause I earlier
today I conducted an interviewwith Kristen Kobes du Mez.
That interview will be comingout before this one, I think,
but I kind of asked her the samequestion and it can be very
difficult to give a straight upand down, yes or no answer to
(38:10):
this question, becauseespecially the complementarian
movement is pretty broad andthings people define as
complementarian is pretty broad.
But like you say, when you getto the end of the spectrum where
just being a woman is defined asbeing submissive, as it is in
the nature of a woman to besubmissive to any male that she
(38:33):
comes in contact, you see howthat could very easily open up
the door for it to be very hardfor people to get out of abusive
situations.
And oftentimes you'll see withthat kind of theology, there
will be the same treatment ofchildren towards their parents
or of all congregants topastors.
(38:54):
I mean, that could be thehardest of all: if you have a
pastor who's done somethinginappropriate, because you have
that authority over the wholechurch.
So I think it happens when wetake biblical teachings about
authority and stretch them andforce them to bear too much of a
weight that was never intendedfor them.
(39:15):
They become the lens throughwhich we see everything else,
which they weren't intended tobe.
So I think that you make a goodpoint about that.
Rachael Denhollander (39:23):
Yeah.
And unfortunately, I think it'sa lot less fringe than we want
to think it is.
Amy Mantravadi (39:27):
Yes.
Well, that was another thingthat I talked about in the other
interview too.
So yeah, it's something thatseems to keep coming up.
So in the wake of the#MeToo and#ChurchToo movements, do you see
any encouraging signs?
Are we getting any better atpreventing and responding to
sexual abuse than we used to be?
Rachael Denhollander (39:52):
Yes and no.
I am encouraged that we arehaving the conversations more.
I think there is a somewhatgrowing awareness.
There is a lot of reticence towant to be honest about the
why's.
"Why do we have this problem inthe Church?" And a very strong
push to move anybody who hasthese concerns or who is active
(40:16):
on these issues into a"othercamp." The real benchmark for
how much we understand and careabout abuse is what we do when
it's in our own community, andwe're not doing a great job in
our own community still.
When I first- actually, we're atthe three-year anniversary, just
two days after the three-yearanniversary of when I came
(40:38):
forward about Larry.
So it is three years to the day,I believe, that the Christianity
Today article about SovereignGrace Churches came out.
In that article, I said if I hadbeen abused by someone in the
Sovereign Grace network and myabuse had been mishandled by
C.J.
Mahaney or another elder in theSovereign Grace Churches, I
wouldn't be being reviled rightnow as a hero for preaching the
(41:00):
gospel.
I would be being shoved out thechurch door as fast as I could,
and my abusers would be beingprayed for from the pulpit,
because that's exactly whathappened to the Sovereign Grace
victims.
Yeah, that's what I said in myinterview with Christianity
Today, and the backlash was soswift and so fast.
It's exactly what everybody did.
And that's just one example, butthere are pastors I know who
(41:21):
have lost out on bookendorsements because they
support my work.
There are pastors and leadersand professors in the circles
that we move in who say veryvindictive and terrible- despite
having completely refused toengage with my work or any
evidence I've presented, becauseit's not comfortable to do so.
Everybody wants abuse to be theconvenient whipping post for the
(41:45):
other camp, whatever that othercamp may be, because it's safe
when it's in the other camp.
It does not cost you to careabout when it's in the other
camp.
It does not challenge yourbeliefs or your ideas or your
relationships when it's in theother camp, but how much we do
when it's in our own community,how willing we are to speak up,
(42:06):
how able we are to see the truthin our own community: that's the
real benchmark, and we're notdoing great.
We're not doing great.
Amy Mantravadi (42:16):
Yeah.
Sigh, heavy sigh.
I think that's true, and I'vecertainly thought about what
would happen if someone reportedsexual abuse at my church or
with any of the organizations orchurches that I care about.
And it's something that Iactually talked a little bit
(42:40):
with people at my church, and Ishould more certainly, but I
think it would be a good thingfor anybody, maybe even before
you have to come forward with anactual report of sexual abuse,
come to them with ahypothetical.
"If you heard such and such,what is the church policy?
(43:00):
What would we do about that?"And probably from the answer,
you could start to derive alittle bit of where the church
is as far as its culture, butcertainly then when such a thing
actually happens, you see ifpeople actually abide by what
they're telling you.
Rachael Denhollander (43:20):
Yeah, that's a good benchmark and
watching whether or not yourpastor or leader is consistent
in what they call out.
So for example, conservativeswere very consistent in calling
out sexual abuse with BillClinton, and rightly so.
Conservatives were veryconsistent in calling out some
of the ways that Hillary hasallegedly silenced the women
(43:40):
that Bill abused in some of herwork as an attorney: just
decimating childhood sexualassault survivors on the witness
stand and laughing about it.
We have recorded audio tapes.
Conservatives were veryconsistent in calling those
things out.
We were not consistent at allwhen there are even more
accusations in"our own party."We were not consistent when
(44:02):
there were allegations againstprominent Christian leaders like
Ravi Zacharias.
When you can see a Christianleader who is calling out people
in the other camp that is deadsilent when the same or worse or
more credible allegations arecoming out against people in
their own camp, we have aproblem.
And that tells you what you needto know about how much that
(44:24):
leader understands dynamics ofabuse and how they're going to
respond when it would cost.
Amy Mantravadi (44:30):
Well, so very true.
And you know, something Istruggle with emotionally, and I
know a lot of other people haveas well: just the seeming
hypocrisy of the Church andbeing very willing to- for
instance, when there was asexual abuse scandal in the
Catholic Church and we allconcluded immediately,"Well it's
(44:50):
because their priests can't getmarried.
So that's the reason that all ofthe sexual abuse is happening,"
and I'm not saying that theredoesn't need to be review of
their celibacy policies, butwhen all of a sudden it turns
out that the Protestant churchhas just as many problems, if
(45:11):
not more- I think the thingabout the Catholic Church is,
because of the hierarchy, itbecame much more of a mass
coverup, as opposed toProtestant church, you have a
lot of little coverups.
Rachael Denhollander (45:23):
It's actually harder to track.
Amy Mantravadi (45:26):
Yeah, so I think it is very telling when you see
how people respond one way andin one situation another.
But we all have our blind spotsfor sure.
The question is, when you revealpeople's blind spots to them,
how do they respond?
Did they think about it andconsider it and eventually
repent, or did they just doubledown and refuse to be in any way
(45:50):
made uncomfortable by that?
So you've done so much over thepast few years to advocate on
behalf of abuse victims.
I'm wondering, what do you haveplanned next?
Rachael Denhollander (46:02):
Oh, goodness.
You know, a wide variety ofthings, anything and everything.
So the boys' book that Jacob andI have worked on: the children's
boys' book that mirrors thelittle girl's book is going to
be coming out within the year,Lord willing, so I'm really
excited about that.
Amy Mantravadi (46:17):
Also very excited to get that for my son,
because we have the girls' book,but I think it will be
especially meaningful for him tohave the boys' book.
Rachael Denhollande (46:28):
Absolutely.
We'll totally send you a copy.
So that's set to come out-really excited about that.
Working on more curriculum withTyndale, so really, really
excited about that.
Doing a lot of speaking andeducating, working with a lot of
non- profits.
We're going to be back at theU.S.
Naval Academy.
Work with a lot of universities.
I'm actually doing quite a bitof consulting- doing crisis
management for organizationsthat are finding themselves in
(46:48):
the scandal, coming alongsidetheir boards and helping them
understand how you balance beinga fiduciary with seeking justice
and being ethically motivated,doing the right thing, being
trauma informed.
Working to help resolve legalissues between corporate counsel
and survivors who have been hurtand asking that question of,
"What does justice look like?
What does restorationrestitution look like for these
people that have been harmed byyour institution in your
(47:10):
organization?" And moving themtowards doing the right thing.
I do a lot of education with barassociations and different
attorneys groups.
We're doing a lot ofcommunication management for
corporations who are in crisis.
Again, helping them ask thatquestion,"What is the right
thing to do?
What do we need to own?
What do we need to..." andreally starting as much as
(47:31):
possible to begin motivatinginstitutions to ask the ethical
questions and to do what isright first and foremost.
So doing a lot of corporateconsulting, doing a lot of
education, still working withwriting, still doing a lot of
volunteer work with variousdenominations and churches, and
then walking alongside severalsurvivors who are very dear to
(47:51):
us.
I think it's important to haveall of those dynamics.
I'm also working on somelegislation- doing some
legislative work.
I'm really blessed to be able totake a very fully orbed approach
to dealing with issues of abuseand to be able to speak into a
lot of different situations a ta lot of different levels, but
also to have people who are verydear to me who we're privileged
to walk alongside.
(48:12):
And then of course, there'shomeschooling our four kids and
married t o my wonderful husbandand you know, normal life t oo.
Amy Mantravadi (48:20):
Yeah.
Well, sometimes I think aboutall the things you do, Rachael,
and I say to myself,"I couldnever do all the things that she
does."
Rachael Denhollander (48:30):
I couldn't by myself either.
Amy Mantravadi (48:33):
It's occurred to me now, as I'm listening to you,
maybe it's been that ice creamthat's been powering you all
along.
Rachael Denhollander (48:42):
It is the secret formula.
Amy Mantravadi (48:42):
And if I could just get some of that ice cream,
then maybe I'd be able to berunning a million miles an hour
too.
So thank you for thatrevelation.
But seriously, I would encourageall listeners: just be in prayer
for you because you do a lot ofgreat work and it's very
(49:03):
challenging work, but I'm justso grateful to have you and
Jacob and the many other peopleyou partner with working on
these important issues for theChurch.
And thank you for coming on tojust answer some questions and
hopefully it will help a lot ofpeople to think about these
issues.
Rachael Denhollande (49:21):
Absolutely.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Jon Guerra (49:49):
[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that
it will roll in abundance, andthat you're building a city
where we arrive as immigrantsand you call us citizens and you
welcome us as children home.
[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi (49:51):
It was an honor and a pleasure to speak with
Rachael about these importantissues.
Be sure to look for all herbooks wherever you tend to make
such purchases and stay tuned asshe is taking on new endeavors
all the time.
Rachael's heart beats powerfullyon behalf of the least of these,
and I pray that the Church as awhole will continue to learn and
grow in this area.
The music you've been hearing isthe song"Citizens" by Jon
(50:13):
Guerra.
He's hinted that he'll have somenew music coming out in 2021, so
there's some good news for usall.
This season of the(A)Millennialpodcast was written and produced
by yours truly.
You may tweet congratulatorystatements@AmyMantravadi and
send any and all complaints bymail to 1600 Pennsylvania
Avenue, Washington, DC, UnitedStates of America.
(50:35):
Ratings and reviews are veryhelpful when people look for a
new podcast to listen to, so ifyou haven't done so yet, please
leave your honest opinion aboutthis podcast on whichever
platform you use.
I would not have been able to dothis season of(A)Millennial if
my husband, Jai, had not beenwilling to take care of our son
while I conducted theinterviews.
I'm exceedingly grateful to himand to all the kind guests who
(50:56):
contributed to these theologicalconversations.
I will close us out today withan admonition from the Epistle
to the Hebrews.
"Therefore, since we have sogreat a cloud of witnesses
surrounding us, let us also layaside every encumbrance and the
sin which so easily entangles usand let us run with endurance
the race that is set before us,fixing our eyes on Jesus, the
(51:17):
author and perfecter of faith,who for the joy set before him
endured the cross, despising theshame, and has sat down at the
right hand of the throne ofGod." Amen.
Come, Lord Jesus.
May his grace be with you nowand forevermore.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (51:34):
[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always
living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
(51:55):
[MUSIC STOPS]
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