October 21, 2020 • 46 mins
Author Rachel Joy Welcher stops by to discuss what got left behind at the purity ball. About twenty years ago, a torrent of literature related to sexual purity was unleashed in Christian bookstores. It spawned an entire culture with purity rings, True Love Waits concerts, and yes, even purity balls. Some of it adhered to biblical truth...but some of it did not. In her new book, Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality, Rachel discusses the effects this had on the Church and how we should think about issues of sexual purity going forward.
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Episode Transcript
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Jon Guerra (00:07):
(MUSIC PLAYING) I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
(MUSIC STOPS)
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, popularly known as the GemCity...although no one can tell
me why.
Whether you're enjoying the fallcolors or locked up in
quarantine, thank you so muchfor listening.
I hope today's discussion willbe beneficial for you.
(00:49):
I'm going to be speaking withRachel Joy Welcher about her new
book, Talking Back to PurityCulture, and I'd like to offer a
word of explanation before webegin.
First of all, today's podcastwill involve issues related to
sexuality, and therefore may notbe appropriate for small
children.
Second, you might be tempted tothink from the title of Rachel's
book that she is calling forgreater sexual license among
(01:10):
Christians than what the Churchhas traditionally taught, but
this is not the case.
Both Rachel and I believe thatsexual activity ought to occur
only between a husband and wifeas scripture teaches.
However, the Church hassometimes added harmful
teachings to this simplebiblical truth, and that's what
we hope to address today.
I'd like to start a tradition ofbeginning each episode with one
(01:31):
or more scripture passages thatare relevant to the day's
discussion.
For this episode, I will readfrom Paul's first epistle to the
Corinthians, chapter six, versesnine through 20.
"Or do you not know that theunrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived (01:44):
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, norhomosexuals, nor thieves, nor
the covetous, nor drunkards, norrevilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Such were some of you, but youwere washed, but you were
sanctified, but you werejustified in the name of the
(02:06):
Lord Jesus Christ and in theSpirit of our God.
All things are lawful for me,but not all things are
profitable.
All things are lawful for me,but I will not be mastered by
anything.
Food is for the stomach and thestomach is for food, but God
will do away with both of them.
Yet the body is not forimmorality, but for the Lord,
(02:26):
and the Lord is for the body.
Now God has not only raised theLord, but will also raise up us
through his power.
Do you not know that your bodiesare members of Christ?
Shall I then take away themembers of Christ and make them
members of a prostitute?
May it never be! Or do you notknow that the one who joins
himself to a prostitute is onebody with her?
(02:47):
For he says the two shall becomeone flesh, but the one who joins
himself to the Lord is onespirit with him.
Flee immorality.
Every other sin that a mancommits is outside the body, but
the immoral man sins against hisown body.
Or do you not know that yourbody is a temple of the Holy
Spirit, who is in you, whom youhave from God, and that you are
(03:08):
not your own?
For you have been bought with aprice; therefore, glorify God in
your body." And that was FirstCorinthians 6:9-20 from the New
American Standard Bible.
Thanks be to God for his Word.
Now let's head to the interview.
Jon Guerra (03:23):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (03:33):
I'm with Rachel Welcher, who is my first guest
on the(A)Millennial podcast.
How are you doing today, Rachel?
Rachel Joy Welcher (03:40):
I'm doing great.
So glad to be here.
Amy Mantravadi (03:42):
Yeah, it's great to talk to you.
Of course we've interacted quitea bit on Twitter and over email
over the past few years, butit's great to be able to talk to
you, not in person, but about asclose as we can get in these
days of COVID.
So just to introduce Rachel alittle bit to everyone who's
listening, she studied at TheMasters University and St.
(04:06):
Andrew's University, which wasactually how we initially first
got in contact because she wasworking on this same project
while she was at St.
Andrew's, and I was one of thelucky people to read a little
bit of it at that time.
Before that she worked for 10years as a high school English
teacher.
She's contributed articles toThe Gospel Coalition, Relevant,
(04:28):
Mere Orthodoxy, The EnglewoodReview of Books and other
websites, and she's currentlyworking as an editor and
columnist for Fathom magazine.
Her published works include twobooks of poetry.
The first is Blue Tarp and thesecond is Two Funerals, Then
Easter.
And then most recently the bookwe're going to be talking about
(04:49):
today, Talking Back to PurityCulture.
You can find her on socialmedia.
On Twitter and Instagram she's@RachelJWelcher and on Facebook
@RachelJoyWelcher, nd that isRachel without the second A.
So yeah, I think that just aboutsums it up.
So tell me, Rachel, you'regetting about ready for your
(05:14):
book to be released on November10.
How are you feeling about it?
I saw that you just got yourfirst copies- official copies in
the mail.
How was that getting to open upt he box?
Rachel Joy Welcher (05:25):
Oh, man, it was kind of like Christmas
morning to be honest.
It's been so exciting to seesome of the early reader reviews
and I just feel like God isanswering my prayers.
You know, I've been working onthis book for about three years.
As you said, you were one of thepeople who helped me edit some
(05:46):
of my early research.
Amy is a very good editor.
So it's been a long time coming,and so many prayers have gone
into this project and to be ableto see people holding it in
their hands is- not to becheesy, but it really is a dream
come true for a writer.
So I'm very excited.
Amy Mantravadi (06:08):
Well, I should make clear to everyone that I
didn't pay you anything to saythat I'm a great editor.
But I definitely do rememberwhen I was reading over your, I
guess, thesis it was called atthe master's level, and
thinking,"Man, this reallyshould be a book." And now it is
(06:29):
a book, which is just amazing.
Again, I'm so glad that I couldtalk to you about it in the
podcast.
So just digging into the bookitself a bit, and the first page
, you write a little bit aboutwhat your plan is to do with the
book and sort of the literaturethat's come out in the late 90s
and early 2000s, as part of thispurity culture movement.
(06:53):
And you write that,"The books Ihad read promised that
premarital purity would resultin a flourishing marriage.
They told me that sexualobedience would secure a
specific blessing.
When the reward didn't come, Iwas left to wonder what I had
done wrong and whether otherswho had grown up reading the
same books and hearing the samemessages were wrestling with
(07:13):
similar questions." So that sortof gets a little bit into the
background of why you chose towrite the book.
What was the process thatbrought you through some of
these difficult, personal andspiritual realizations to the
point where you not only wroteabout it at a master's level,
(07:35):
but then decided to publish abook in response?
Rachel Joy Welcher (07:38):
Right.
Well, it was multiple thingscoming together because as an
English teacher to high schoolstudents at a Christian school,
I felt like I had a lot ofinteractions where students were
- they had questions aboutthings like sexuality and dating
and purity.
They had things they werestruggling with and guilt.
(08:01):
And so it was on my radar thatthese issues were still just
very relevant to the youth oftoday, just like they were to me
when I was a teenager.
And then I had multiple femaleChristian friends who had been
sexually abused and just in ourfriendship and kind of, you
know, unofficial counseling, myheart was heavy for them and I
(08:24):
wanted to see what the books ofmy youth said to those who've
been sexually abused, like thosemessages about purity.
How did they come across topeople who'd had their virginity
taken from them, for instance?
And so that's kind of how itstarted was with research for my
dissertation.
And then after that I had adecision: I was either going to
(08:47):
keep pursuing the subject andmaybe apply for a PhD with my
same advisor at St.
Andrew's, or just start to writethe book right then, and I
really wanted to keep going andkeep up that momentum.
And I wanted to write somethingthat was academic, but that was
also really accessible to anyonewho'd grown up with these
messages.
(09:08):
So this book is really anacademic response, but also a
very personal response based onthe interviews and stories I've
heard and based on my own life,because as you said, I also had
to realize that these purityculture promises hadn't come to
fruition in my own life.
Amy Mantravadi (09:27):
Yeah.
I definitely got that from beingable to read through your book.
And in addition to reading abouthow it affected your life,
growing up in this evangelicalcommunity and being exposed to a
lot of the purity cultureliterature, it reminded me a lot
of my time growing up inevangelical Christianity.
(09:48):
And in some ways I had a bit ofa positive reaction of,"Oh, I'm
that never actually happened tome," or,"I never actually heard
that problematic teaching." AndI was kind of happy that I had
managed to avoid it, but thenthere were definitely a lot of
other things I said,"Oh yeah, Iheard that all the time." You
(10:09):
know, I remember being in highschool at our Christian school
and having one time during theyear when all the girls would be
brought into a room together andthe guys would get to go do
something fun.
We would all have this talkabout what we were going to wear
to make sure that we weren'tgoing to tempt all the boys in
the school.
And to a certain extent- I mean,I definitely support, you know,
(10:32):
having dress codes and thingslike that, and I think that even
I was fortunate that even thoseconversations didn't go to the
kind of extreme level thatyou're talking about in your
book.
But I definitely was seeingthings that I recognized in your
experience either from somethingI had experienced growing up, or
(10:53):
even more than that things I'veheard from so many friends over
the years who also grew up inthe purity culture.
And just so that we make surethat everyone who's listening is
clear about what we're talkingabout in your book, you do
contrast the purity culturemovement, which developed a
specific point in time- You talkabout kind of the mid to late
(11:15):
90s into the early 2000s, aboutthe time we were in middle
school and high school- Youcontrast that with biblical
sexual ethics, which had beenthe same throughout history.
So what do you think helped tofuel the creation of this purity
culture movement and how was itdifferent from what had come
(11:37):
before it and what the Churchhad usually been teaching about
sexual ethics?
Rachel Joy Welcher (11:41):
That's a really good question.
I think what fueled the modernpurity movement, which I focus
on in my book, was a reaction tojust this influx of and fear of
STDs and teen pregnancy comingout of the seventies and
eighties.
And so it was very fear-basedand reactionary.
(12:02):
It began being taught, not justin churches, but also in public
schools through abstinenceeducation.
And so this was a Christian-well, the message came usually
from Christian environments, butit eventually bled into the
schools.
And once it became governmentfunded, Jesus had to be taken
(12:25):
out of it.
So you ended up with thisChristian subculture called
purity culture that had somethings in common with biblical
sexual ethics and had othermessages that were entirely
unbiblical.
And I think untangling those twothings is what I'm trying to do
in my book and what I wasn'table to do as well.
(12:46):
When I was a teenager, I justtook it all in without
discerning the difference,because it was Christians who
were telling me those things.
Amy Mantravadi (13:00):
Yeah, and you mentioned a lot of different
books in your own book that youspend time interacting with and
critiquing and really getting tothe part of what their messages
were.
And I definitely remembereveryone reading- It seemed like
everyone was reading, at least,Wild at Heart and Captivating,
and everyone had those books ForWomen Only and For Men Only.
(13:25):
And they'd be[in] not just allthe Christian bookstores, but
they were at Barnes and Noble.
They were being given to allkinds of people.
And then that was around thesame time- particularly I think
under the George W.
Bush administration, there was areal emphasis on government
working with faith-basedinitiatives.
(13:45):
But of course, when you'retaking government money, like
you said, you can't be pushingreligion on people.
So you have to kind of take someof the specific Christian-ness
out of it and you kind of getleft with this moralism.
And so definitely that wasjogging my memory as well.
(14:05):
And yeah, you spend a lot oftime focusing on those primary
books that were associated withthe purity culture movement that
were released in the late 90sand early 2000s, and one thing
you say about them is that,"Books that were meant to be
tasted began filling the shelvesat Christian bookstores and
parents bought them for theirteenagers who swallowed them
(14:27):
whole.
There was an assumption thatanything about purity written by
a Christian would be not onlysafe, but helpful." And that
really resonated with me because- I'm sure we've all been to
places- You'll go to Hobby Lobbyand you'll see they have books
there at the checkout, or you goto Walmart and they'll have a
Christian section, or even atBarnes and Noble the"Christian"
(14:50):
section, and some of the stuffthere is good, but also I think
most of us would look at it andsay, there are some things there
that kind of make us scratch ourhead.
Like, does that really belong inthe Christian section or what is
this?
But there is that same feeling,especially when we're so
overloaded with things in ourlives and so busy and wanting to
(15:12):
do something to help our kidsthat we're just like,"Oh, well,
this looks like a good Christianbook on the cover, so it must be
good." And wanting out of a gooddesire to do something, just
handing that off to somebody.
And what it makes me wonder,something that we could apply to
our own lives today is what doesthis tendency we have- What does
(15:33):
it say about our generalpurchasing habits and how we're
raising our children?
And did you have any thoughtsabout that in relation to the
research that you did?
Rachel Joy Welcher (15:45):
Well, I think it's interesting.
I did a conference just a coupleof years ago, talking about
aspects from my book before mybook was completed.
But after the seminar, a fatherraised his hand and said,"Well,
what books can we give ourchildren, our teenagers?" And I
think that's always the questionthat I'm asked.
I get messages about it a lotwhere they'll say,"Ok, well, I
(16:08):
see that you're tacklingdestructive messages in these
core period of books.
So which book can I give mykid?" The desire behind that is-
I think a lot of humility- is aparent saying, I'm not an expert
on this.
Let's give my kid a book writtenby someone who has researched
it.
And I really respect that andunderstand.
(16:29):
I think there's even somedesperation there for parents of
teenagers, where they're justgrasping for anything to guide
their teen in this formative anddifficult time where they're
going through puberty and theyhave all these questions.
So when I was growing up, a lotof parents- my parents talked to
me about sexuality and there wasan openness there and they were,
(16:50):
they gave me very solidteaching, but at the time all of
us teenagers were reading thesebooks, and I don't think that
our parents really understoodeverything that was in them.
And like you said, I mentionedthat because they were written
by Christians, there was anassumption that they were safe,
but as a high school Englishteacher, I would contrast the
(17:14):
way that we study literature inschool, where we just- you know,
students, it drives them crazy,but you analyze the heck out of
a book, right?
You pick out the worldviews andthe themes and the symbolism and
you write multiple essays on it.
And we didn't do that with thesebooks.
Instead, we read them inisolation.
So even though my friends werealso reading I Kissed Dating
(17:36):
Goodbye, I don't remember usever talking about those books
together in a way that wasanalytical or parsing through
it.
We were all just reading themtogether, but separately.
And what happened was, I thinkwe internalized some of the
wrong teaching right along withthe biblical teaching, and it's
(17:57):
caused some damage.
I mean, you and I've seen it.
We watch people on Twittertalking about where they're at
now, and some people have becomeso frustrated realizing that
these teachings weren't true,that they're actually walking
away, not just from theunbiblical teachings, but
they're walking away from theChurch altogether.
So it's a real problem.
(18:18):
I mean, we are seeing the rippleeffect of this, of these books.
Amy Mantravadi (18:25):
And when you mention the unbiblical teachings
there, I'm trying to think backat some of the ones that you
mentioned, were- one that Ialluded to where females are
seen to have a kind ofresponsibility for male sexual
behavior.
And that definitely plays intowhat you're talking about with
(18:47):
sexual abuse victims, becausehow do you interpret that?
If a woman is sexually abused,was that somehow her fault as
well?
I don't mean to put you on thespot, but what were maybe a
couple other- just in casepeople aren't aware, with these
books- what a couple other ofthe issues, problematic issues
(19:10):
with them would be beyond whatwe've already talked about?
Rachel Joy Welcher (19:14):
Right.
Well, one of the issues is justthat in order to motivate
teenagers, to pursue sexualabstinence- instead of saying,
"It's for the glory of God.
Obedience is an act of worshipfor Christians, however
imperfectly we perform it." Youthink about abstinence education
(19:34):
in public schools.
If you can't talk about theworthiness of Christ, then you
have to think of a different wayto motivate these teenagers to
not have sex, and so the carrotthat was dangled in front of
these kids and in front of meeven to an extent, was not
obedience for God's glory, butthis promise that if I stayed
(19:56):
pure, I would get married.
And the assumption was alwaysthat you'd get married within a
reasonable timeframe.
I don't know if that was statedin any of the books, but it just
is what all of us assumed.
You get married.
You'd have mind blowing sex fromnight one, and you would have
children with ease.
That's a direct quote from oneof the books that if you avoid
(20:17):
premarital sex, you'll actually"have children with ease,"
meaning you won't struggle withinfertility.
So there were these kind of corepromises that not only are not
from scripture, but they alsoneglected realities like
same-sex attraction.
What did that say to teens whowere struggling with same sex
(20:38):
attraction?
What about those who stillaren't married and they're in
their 30s and 40s?
What about those been sexuallyabused?
What about those who aredivorced, like me?
What about those who strugglewith infertility?
You end up with this sort ofprosperity gospel and purity
teaching that you have a falloutfrom, and all these people are
(21:01):
now grappling with brokenpromises and God never made
those promises, but they camefrom Christian books.
And so a lot of people areassociating those promises with
the Church and withChristianity.
Amy Mantravadi (21:16):
Yeah.
Thank you for providing thatexplanation there, because I
think that'll be helpful to alot of people not only to
understand what you and I aretalking about, but also to think
back and realize,"Oh yeah, maybeI was hearing some of that stuff
as well." And definitely whereyou're talking about- as far as
(21:37):
the promises that were made bythose books, like you said, they
don't really gel with scripture,but in addition have not played
out in the experience of myselfor people I know.
It's almost as if they're sayingyou'll never suffer in your life
and we all know that that's nottrue.
So one thing I especiallyappreciate about your book was
(22:00):
all the interviews you conductedwith average Christians, who'd
been exposed to these purityculture teachings, and you
discussed how it had affectedtheir lives.
And many of those conversationswere really deeply personal that
you have with people.
And I totally understand whysome of them didn't want their
names included in the book, butwhat were some of the primary
things you took away from thosediscussions for yourself and how
(22:23):
did it affect your own thinkingabout these issues?
Rachel Joy Welcher (22:27):
You know, there was a real emotional toll
that those interviews took onme.
For those who are into theEnneagram, I'm an Enneagram 2,
and I'm also an extreme empath.
I really take people's storiesinto my heart and it's a little
bit hard for me to recover.
And so I remember the monthsthat I spent where- I do
(22:50):
multiple interviews a day-whether I was meeting with
people in person for coffee orover Zoom or the phone, people
were- you were right.
They shared with me things.
I mean, they really were honestwith me.
One of the things that wasparticularly difficult was just
how many Christians have beensexually abused.
I don't want to say I wassurprised, but it hurt me to
(23:13):
just to hear these stories, andnot only had so many of them
experienced abuse, but they'dexperienced it in the Church and
by other Christians.
And so just further complicatingthis narrative that if you do
good sexually, you'll besexually rewarded, and also
(23:33):
adding to this false guilt thatif you are sexually abused,
somehow it's your fault becauseyou could have or should have
prevented it.
I think that there was so muchmore of that than I realized
there would be.
And so it was a heavy time, butI was incredibly touched by how
open people were with me, and itproved to me that this topic is
(23:56):
one that is incredibly relevantright now: that our generation
is grappling with theseteachings and trying to sort out
the good and the bad.
And so that's really what camethrough is that I talked to
Christians from all differenttheological backgrounds.
Some had left the Church, somewere extremely conservative,
some were more liberal.
(24:17):
So I talked to really an arrayof Christians and there was a
common theme that purity culturedidn't get it all right.
And so that just proved to methat there was a need for this
book.
Amy Mantravadi (24:35):
Yeah, and while I certainly haven't done
anything like the wonderfulresearch that you've done on
this topic, I've had a fewconversations over the years
with people where they sharekind of how these teachings have
affected them, and many peoplewho- and increasingly people are
feeling empowered to talk aboutthis, that they have sexual
(24:58):
abuse in their backgrounds andoften happening with people they
know from the Church or fromtheir family.
And so it definitely...as youwere quoting from those
discussions, you had, I justimagined knowing how I had been
affected by having discussionslike that, that certainly that
would have been hard for you andalso not just for you, but how
(25:22):
difficult it is for all of thosepeople to be able to share that.
And I was just so glad that theywere willing to do that and felt
like they were in a safe placewhere they were able to do that.
So you have a great line in yourbook where you say that,
"Virginity does not provide herpurity.
(25:42):
Jesus does." I was wondering,could you explain that a little
bit for our listeners?
Rachel Joy Welcher (25:49):
Sure.
I think that was such animportant message I wanted to
communicate in my book becauseto just dismantle something is
not enough.
We have to know what, what do wedo instead?
What do we teach or believeinstead?
And so I wanted to dismantlethese dangerous teachings and
purity culture, but then I alsowanted to return to what is
(26:10):
actually true.
And so I have a whole chapter onthe way that purity culture
idolized virginity, especiallyfemale virginity.
And one of the things you'llnotice in purity culture books
is that there's this idea thatvirginity and sexual purity
actually determines one's worthas a person.
(26:31):
And again, specifically forwomen.
And so there's these metaphorsthat many of us are familiar
with, like the crumpled rose orthe chewed up gum or the used
car.
And these metaphors were meantto communicate what happened to
you when you sinned sexually.
But what these metaphors did wasnot just alert teenagers to some
(26:55):
of the dangers spiritual andotherwise of premarital sex, but
it also communicated that theywould lose personal worth if
they had sexual experiences.
And so I wanted to return to thetheological principle that our
purity, our salvation has itssource in Christ, and that is
(27:17):
unchangeable.
So whether you are sexuallyabused or you make sexual
mistakes and you sin, your worthas a person and an image bearer
of God does not change.
And not only that, I would arguethat we all have sexual
histories, whether it'ssomething you've done
physically, or it's just a lustin your mind, but we are all
(27:40):
sexual sinners and sexual sindoes not mean that you can't
have a healthy futurerelationship with a spouse or
with others in the Church orwith God.
And so we really have to returnto what is the source of our
salvation and the source of ourrighteousness.
It's not our own actions, it'sChrist's righteousness.
And so our purity really can'tchange no matter what has been
(28:04):
done to us or what we do.
And of course what we do mattersand what happens to us matters
to God, but it doesn't changeour worth.
Amy Mantravadi (28:14):
Yeah.
It's really a very impoverishedview of purity to not only just
to bring it down to sexualpurity, as opposed to purity it
all other things in life, butthen to bring it down to just,
"Have you had this oneparticular physical action that
you participated in or not,?" asopposed to a more holistic view
(28:40):
of,"What is your thought life?
Have you been looking atpornography?" And as far as
actual sexual intercourse itself, making no differentiation
between things you consented toand things you didn't consent
to.
And like you said, that kind ofimage of the crumpled up rose,
which if anyone's ever seen theTV show Jane the Virgin that was
(29:04):
out a few years ago- I think youmentioned it in your book- and
the very first episode, and thenthey come back to it again and
again- they show Jane as alittle girl and her grandma- she
crushes the flower and she says,"You can never go back!"
Certainly it is correct thatsexual sin is a big deal, and
(29:27):
it's something that God speaks alot against, but you know, the
idea that either a mistake youmade when you were a teenager or
even something that washorrificly done to you when you
were young, that you can neverpossibly recover from that and
be pure for the rest of yourlife certainly doesn't take into
(29:50):
account what it really means tobe pure and the power that God
has to sanctify us.
So I really a ppreciated thatyou talked about that.
Another important point you makein the book that we've alluded
to- it has to do with who'sultimately responsible for
maintaining sexual purity.
(30:10):
And another thing you write inthe book is that,"One of the
main problems with modesty rhetoric is that it draws on the
biblically unsupportable ideathat women are responsible for
the purity of men.
If a man l usts after a woman,it is because she failed to
protect him." And I know thatyou and I would both agree that
(30:31):
there are things women can dothat are not at all helpful to
men in helping them to maintainsexual purity.
But I think you're right topoint out that this is another
line of thinking that's beentaken to an unhelpful extreme.
And what kind of negativeconsequences has this mistaken
thinking had i n the Church andreally in society as a whole,
(30:54):
because I see this line ofthinking happening far beyond
the Church and just in societyin general?
Rachel Joy Welcher (31:01):
Well, I draw a connection and this is where
some people could get offended,but I hope they'll hear me out.
There really is a connectionbetween rape culture and purity
rhetoric, and it starts withthis idea, which is unbiblical,
that women are morally superiorto men and therefore morally
responsible for what bothgenders do sexually.
(31:24):
We don't see that in scripture.
You go back to the Sermon on theMount and Jesus talks about- if
a man lusts after a woman in hisheart, he's committed adultery.
We are each held responsible forour individual sins.
Now that's not to say that awoman couldn't be sinning by
trying to selfishly causesomeone to stumble: that's her
sin.
But if a man responds bysexually abusing her, that is
(31:46):
his sin.
And so I think it comes down toculpability.
Culpability gets very confusedwhen you teach that women are in
charge of the sexual actions ofmen.
This is where you get rapeculture, the idea that,"What was
she wearing when it happened?
Why did she go to that party?
Why did she walk down thatstreet?
(32:07):
She should've known better."That's rape culture rhetoric,
and you see that bleed intopurity culture with this idea
that women can somehow preventsexual assault: that it's within
our power to make sure itdoesn't happen.
That was basically stated inmultiple books, that if you act
in a certain way, men willrespect you and never abuse you.
(32:28):
To an extent it might be true.
There are certain things that wecan wear or ways that we can
dress that determine how peopleview us, but this idea that you
could actually prevent sexualabuse from happening just by
being an upstanding citizen (32:41):
we know that's not true.
The statistics prove otherwise.
And so I think that you see notonly women blamed for the sexual
abuse that happens to them, butyou even see Christian women
blamed for their husbands'sexual sin, because there's this
(33:02):
idea- and I actually just wrotean article about this for
Fathom, it'll be coming out nextmonth- but there's this idea
that if women, when they'reunmarried- they need to make
sure that they don't sexuallytempt men.
And then once they're married,they need to be giving their
husbands so much sex that he'llnever stray, which is a strange
way to look at it because itmakes it sound like men don't
have a moral responsibility: that they're constantly on the (33:27):
undefined
verge of sexual sin.
And it's only women's sexualfulfillment in marriage that
keeps them from exploding intoadultery.
So t here, you just get a lot ofreally harmful teachings that
come out of this idea that womenare responsible for both men and
(33:47):
women.
Amy Mantravadi (33:50):
Yeah.
And even some of these teachingsseem rather contradictory
because you talked about theidea that women are morally
superior and need to be having apositive influence on men to
prevent them from sinning.
But also historically, there'sbeen the idea out there that
women are basically seductressesand that women are morally
(34:14):
inferior and that's why youshouldn't be spending time
around them.
So a lot of this rhetoric, Imean, it's very fear-based, but
it also doesn't seem to be verywell- logically thought out.
Rachel Joy Welcher (34:27):
Yeah.
Sarah Moslener wrote a bookcalled Virgin Nation.
And if anyone who's listening isinterested in this particular
topic, she kind of traces thehistory of purity culture from
the Victorian era on and showshow teachings about women
changed based on what was tryingto be accomplished.
And so you'd see time periodswhere women were treated as
(34:50):
morally weak, and then it wouldswitch to men.
Women are morally superior andtherefore responsible.
And it's a very interesting bookto read, but in modern purity
culture, you get this idea thatcame from gender essentialism,
which is the idea that we'rekind of controlled by our base
instincts.
And men's instincts are alwaysbarbarian type instincts, and
(35:14):
women's are, again, morallysuperior, and these ideas do not
come from scripture.
They were secular thought, butthey influenced modern purity
culture rhetoric, which does setup women as the guardians of
purity.
Amy Mantravadi (35:28):
Yeah.
I think scripture is prettyclear that we all have a sinful
nature.
So apart from the work of God,we're all going to be drawn to
sinful actions, but at the sametime, we're all redeemable and
we all actually are morallyculpable for the things we do.
We can't just say,"The devilmade me do it," or,"The woman
(35:50):
you gave me made do it," oranything of that nature.
So you place a special focus inthe book on Christians who have
been sexually abused, are singleor same-sex attracted, or
struggle with infertility, andthose are all things you've
mentioned a little bit here.
(36:11):
I was wondering what are someways that the Church can be more
supportive and inclusive ofthese individuals?
And I would even add to thatlist, apart from just couples
who are infertile, couples whohave suffered miscarriages or
couples who just haven't hadchildren yet, or basically
(36:33):
anyone who doesn't fit into thatmodel of you get married in your
early twenties, you have kids byyour mid twenties: all the steps
that people want you to followand the boxes they want you to
check off.
I think that to a certainextent, anyone who doesn't fit
that model can start to feel alittle left out in the Church.
(36:54):
So what are some ways that theChurch can be supportive and
inclusive of all kinds of peoplein the Church?
Rachel Joy Welcher (37:01):
That's a great question.
I really wanted to address someof these neglected realities
that we face.
Another one, I talk about allthe ones you've listed and then
also even just painful sex inmarriage- where you can't have
sex for whatever reason.
That's something that purityculture never addressed: a
reality that so many of thepeople I interviewed actually
(37:21):
have dealt with either for shortseasons or for long ones,
depending on illness,depression, those kinds of
things.
I think one way that we can makesure we're being more inclusive
is to stop worshiping thenuclear family.
I mean, there's absolutelynothing wrong with rejoicing in
a couple getting married, havingchildren- those are beautiful,
(37:44):
good gifts from God and Iregularly rejoice even on my
Twitter feed in the marriage Godhas given me, because I have
seen divorce and despair.
And I believe that whatevercircumstance we're in, whether
it's singleness, marriage-whatever circumstance that we
find the ways that God isblessing us and we rejoice in
(38:07):
those things.
So it's not about downplayingthe beauty of marriage and
children, but the Church tendsto treat people as though that's
the norm.
And while it might be themajority, what it does is it
makes anyone who's not in thatbubble feel pushed to the
margins.
(38:29):
And so I think things as simpleas not constantly doing sermon
series on just two things-marriage and parenting- but also
talking about other issues likeloneliness- how to pursue Christ
in other ways.
But if every woman's event isabout how to be a good wife or a
good mom, you're leaving out somany women and so many men who
(38:53):
have different lives and theyare honoring the Lord.
They're living lives like Paulor like Jesus, where they are
fully dedicated in theirsingleness or in their celibacy,
or they're married, but they'rechildless and they're using
their gifts and their time forhis kingdom.
So I think it's about makingsure that we're not just always
focusing on the nuclear familyas though all Christians fit
(39:15):
into that mold.
And then it's also aboutappreciating those who don't
fall into that typical mold andrecognizing that they have their
own unique giftings to offer thechurch family.
I mean, ask a single to lead aBible study.
You don't have to be married tobe spiritually mature.
You don't have to have childrento have compassion or wisdom.
(39:37):
And so I think it's even aboutgiving people ministry
opportunities that don't fallinto the nuclear family.
Amy Mantravadi (39:45):
Yeah, and I'm sure some people will hear what
you said and despite all thequalifications you've given to
it, will just focus on,"Oh, shesays that we shouldn't be caring
about families!" Honestly, Ithink if you look back
throughout history, there was atime when the church really
idolized celibacy and that wasthe ideal that got raised up.
(40:11):
And then after the Reformation,there was maybe a correction of
saying no, it's good to be just-you don't have to be a monk in a
monastery.
You can be married, you can havechildren, and these are all good
and noble things.
But the Church, as with so manyissues, always has a tendency to
(40:32):
gravitate to one extreme or theother, right?
So either we're saying,"Beingmarried and having kids is the
ideal everyone should striveto," or,"Just being single and
giving all your time to serviceis the ideal." And I think that
what I'm hearing from you isthat we need to be not going to
(40:54):
one extreme or the other, but beembracing people at all- as Paul
talks about, you know, in 1Corinthians 7, where he talks
about (41:02):
it's good to not be married, but if you're in this
situation or that situation,yeah, be married.
I think that sometimes we missthe possibility that there could
be more than one way for someoneto be godly.
And also, I think our culturalmoment we're in right now where
we're really seeing thebreakdown of the family in a lot
(41:24):
of ways- I think that tends tocause a bit of an overreaction.
Rachel Joy Welcher (41:34):
You're pointing out too that it's very
much cultural, more thanbiblical, the way the pendulum
swings.
And so there was a time when Ithink celibacy was probably a
lot easier for Christiansbecause there was more of a
community (41:49):
there was more respect for it.
Whereas now I've heard some ofmy same-sex friends who aren't
in marriages say that celibacy-people look at them strange and
encourage them to marry someoneof the opposite gender, even if
they are not in that place wherethey feel like that's the right
(42:11):
thing to do.
Basically the Church seemsuncomfortable with prolonged
singleness and celibacy and asyou point out, that's an
overcorrection because if youlook at scripture, Jesus was
single.
Paul was single and some of myspiritual heroes, Amy Carmichael
, Rich Mullins, and HenryNouwen.
And they honored the Lord oftheir lives and they didn't have
(42:35):
spouses or children.
And so I am in no waydownplaying how beautiful a
family unit is or how good, andpursue it have as many babies as
you can if you want to do that,but it's what you said.
We shouldn't worship eitherstage or any particular
circumstance because the body ofChrist is meant to be diverse.
(42:56):
We flourish when we celebrateour differences and learn from
one another.
Sameness is not what we shouldseek in the church.
So I think just to go back toyour question about how do we
include those who've been pushedto the margins, another way is
to stop segregating our Biblestudies and small groups.
(43:16):
I think when we only talk aboutsexual purity to a group of
teenagers or a group of women inBible study, and we're always
having these conversations insegregation, all married or just
singles or just those whostruggle with pornography or
whatever the group is- it's notwrong to have those groups, but
(43:37):
I think we would benefit frommore diverse conversations about
sexuality.
I talk about in the book thiskind of dream I have that a
small group would study my bookand go through the questions
together.
And it would include a widow,someone who's divorced, a
married couple, singles,same-sex attracted-people from
all walks of life who could talkabout these things together and
(44:01):
realize that we have more incommon than we think, that unmet
longings come in all shapes andsizes, and we can share those
things together and pray for oneanother.
So I think it's also abouttrying to make sure we're not
always segregating people intotheir relationship status or
place in life, but seekingdiversity.
Amy Mantravadi (44:24):
Well, I think on that note, it's a really good
place to wrap it up.
I think we've been able tohopefully cover lot of what you
talk about in the book, butthere is a lot more for people,
so I would very much recommendthat you pick up a copy of
Rachel's book Talking Back toPurity Culture, which hopefully
by the time this podcast airswill be coming out very shortly
(44:48):
after that on November 10th.
Rachel, it's been a pleasure totalk to you and thank you once
again.
Rachel Joy Welcher (44:56):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
Jon Guerra (44:58):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (45:26):
I really enjoyed my discussion with Rachel about
ways we can improve the Church'sapproach to issues of sexuality.
Her book, Talking Back to PurityCulture is published by
InterVarsity Press and will bereleased on November 10.
As I previously mentioned, themusic you've been hearing is the
song"Citizens" by John Guerraoff his album Keeper of Days.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode.
Allow me to send you off withthe benediction that comes at
(45:48):
the end of Paul's second letterto the Corinthians.
"The grace of the Lord JesusChrist, and the love of God, and
the fellowship of the HolySpirit be with you all." Amen.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (46:01):
Is there a way to love always?
Living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
(MUSIC PLAYING) I have a heart full of questions
quieting all my suggestions.
What is the meaning of Christianin this American life?
I'm feeling awfully foolishspending my life on a message.
I look around and I wonder everif I heard it right.
(MUSIC STOPS)
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, popularly known as the GemCity...although no one can tell
me why.
Whether you're enjoying the fallcolors or locked up in
quarantine, thank you so muchfor listening.
I hope today's discussion willbe beneficial for you.
(00:49):
I'm going to be speaking withRachel Joy Welcher about her new
book, Talking Back to PurityCulture, and I'd like to offer a
word of explanation before webegin.
First of all, today's podcastwill involve issues related to
sexuality, and therefore may notbe appropriate for small
children.
Second, you might be tempted tothink from the title of Rachel's
book that she is calling forgreater sexual license among
(01:10):
Christians than what the Churchhas traditionally taught, but
this is not the case.
Both Rachel and I believe thatsexual activity ought to occur
only between a husband and wifeas scripture teaches.
However, the Church hassometimes added harmful
teachings to this simplebiblical truth, and that's what
we hope to address today.
I'd like to start a tradition ofbeginning each episode with one
(01:31):
or more scripture passages thatare relevant to the day's
discussion.
For this episode, I will readfrom Paul's first epistle to the
Corinthians, chapter six, versesnine through 20.
"Or do you not know that theunrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived (01:44):
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, norhomosexuals, nor thieves, nor
the covetous, nor drunkards, norrevilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Such were some of you, but youwere washed, but you were
sanctified, but you werejustified in the name of the
(02:06):
Lord Jesus Christ and in theSpirit of our God.
All things are lawful for me,but not all things are
profitable.
All things are lawful for me,but I will not be mastered by
anything.
Food is for the stomach and thestomach is for food, but God
will do away with both of them.
Yet the body is not forimmorality, but for the Lord,
(02:26):
and the Lord is for the body.
Now God has not only raised theLord, but will also raise up us
through his power.
Do you not know that your bodiesare members of Christ?
Shall I then take away themembers of Christ and make them
members of a prostitute?
May it never be! Or do you notknow that the one who joins
himself to a prostitute is onebody with her?
(02:47):
For he says the two shall becomeone flesh, but the one who joins
himself to the Lord is onespirit with him.
Flee immorality.
Every other sin that a mancommits is outside the body, but
the immoral man sins against hisown body.
Or do you not know that yourbody is a temple of the Holy
Spirit, who is in you, whom youhave from God, and that you are
(03:08):
not your own?
For you have been bought with aprice; therefore, glorify God in
your body." And that was FirstCorinthians 6:9-20 from the New
American Standard Bible.
Thanks be to God for his Word.
Now let's head to the interview.
Jon Guerra (03:23):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (03:33):
I'm with Rachel Welcher, who is my first guest
on the(A)Millennial podcast.
How are you doing today, Rachel?
Rachel Joy Welcher (03:40):
I'm doing great.
So glad to be here.
Amy Mantravadi (03:42):
Yeah, it's great to talk to you.
Of course we've interacted quitea bit on Twitter and over email
over the past few years, butit's great to be able to talk to
you, not in person, but about asclose as we can get in these
days of COVID.
So just to introduce Rachel alittle bit to everyone who's
listening, she studied at TheMasters University and St.
(04:06):
Andrew's University, which wasactually how we initially first
got in contact because she wasworking on this same project
while she was at St.
Andrew's, and I was one of thelucky people to read a little
bit of it at that time.
Before that she worked for 10years as a high school English
teacher.
She's contributed articles toThe Gospel Coalition, Relevant,
(04:28):
Mere Orthodoxy, The EnglewoodReview of Books and other
websites, and she's currentlyworking as an editor and
columnist for Fathom magazine.
Her published works include twobooks of poetry.
The first is Blue Tarp and thesecond is Two Funerals, Then
Easter.
And then most recently the bookwe're going to be talking about
(04:49):
today, Talking Back to PurityCulture.
You can find her on socialmedia.
On Twitter and Instagram she's@RachelJWelcher and on Facebook
@RachelJoyWelcher, nd that isRachel without the second A.
So yeah, I think that just aboutsums it up.
So tell me, Rachel, you'regetting about ready for your
(05:14):
book to be released on November10.
How are you feeling about it?
I saw that you just got yourfirst copies- official copies in
the mail.
How was that getting to open upt he box?
Rachel Joy Welcher (05:25):
Oh, man, it was kind of like Christmas
morning to be honest.
It's been so exciting to seesome of the early reader reviews
and I just feel like God isanswering my prayers.
You know, I've been working onthis book for about three years.
As you said, you were one of thepeople who helped me edit some
(05:46):
of my early research.
Amy is a very good editor.
So it's been a long time coming,and so many prayers have gone
into this project and to be ableto see people holding it in
their hands is- not to becheesy, but it really is a dream
come true for a writer.
So I'm very excited.
Amy Mantravadi (06:08):
Well, I should make clear to everyone that I
didn't pay you anything to saythat I'm a great editor.
But I definitely do rememberwhen I was reading over your, I
guess, thesis it was called atthe master's level, and
thinking,"Man, this reallyshould be a book." And now it is
(06:29):
a book, which is just amazing.
Again, I'm so glad that I couldtalk to you about it in the
podcast.
So just digging into the bookitself a bit, and the first page
, you write a little bit aboutwhat your plan is to do with the
book and sort of the literaturethat's come out in the late 90s
and early 2000s, as part of thispurity culture movement.
(06:53):
And you write that,"The books Ihad read promised that
premarital purity would resultin a flourishing marriage.
They told me that sexualobedience would secure a
specific blessing.
When the reward didn't come, Iwas left to wonder what I had
done wrong and whether otherswho had grown up reading the
same books and hearing the samemessages were wrestling with
(07:13):
similar questions." So that sortof gets a little bit into the
background of why you chose towrite the book.
What was the process thatbrought you through some of
these difficult, personal andspiritual realizations to the
point where you not only wroteabout it at a master's level,
(07:35):
but then decided to publish abook in response?
Rachel Joy Welcher (07:38):
Right.
Well, it was multiple thingscoming together because as an
English teacher to high schoolstudents at a Christian school,
I felt like I had a lot ofinteractions where students were
- they had questions aboutthings like sexuality and dating
and purity.
They had things they werestruggling with and guilt.
(08:01):
And so it was on my radar thatthese issues were still just
very relevant to the youth oftoday, just like they were to me
when I was a teenager.
And then I had multiple femaleChristian friends who had been
sexually abused and just in ourfriendship and kind of, you
know, unofficial counseling, myheart was heavy for them and I
(08:24):
wanted to see what the books ofmy youth said to those who've
been sexually abused, like thosemessages about purity.
How did they come across topeople who'd had their virginity
taken from them, for instance?
And so that's kind of how itstarted was with research for my
dissertation.
And then after that I had adecision: I was either going to
(08:47):
keep pursuing the subject andmaybe apply for a PhD with my
same advisor at St.
Andrew's, or just start to writethe book right then, and I
really wanted to keep going andkeep up that momentum.
And I wanted to write somethingthat was academic, but that was
also really accessible to anyonewho'd grown up with these
messages.
(09:08):
So this book is really anacademic response, but also a
very personal response based onthe interviews and stories I've
heard and based on my own life,because as you said, I also had
to realize that these purityculture promises hadn't come to
fruition in my own life.
Amy Mantravadi (09:27):
Yeah.
I definitely got that from beingable to read through your book.
And in addition to reading abouthow it affected your life,
growing up in this evangelicalcommunity and being exposed to a
lot of the purity cultureliterature, it reminded me a lot
of my time growing up inevangelical Christianity.
(09:48):
And in some ways I had a bit ofa positive reaction of,"Oh, I'm
that never actually happened tome," or,"I never actually heard
that problematic teaching." AndI was kind of happy that I had
managed to avoid it, but thenthere were definitely a lot of
other things I said,"Oh yeah, Iheard that all the time." You
(10:09):
know, I remember being in highschool at our Christian school
and having one time during theyear when all the girls would be
brought into a room together andthe guys would get to go do
something fun.
We would all have this talkabout what we were going to wear
to make sure that we weren'tgoing to tempt all the boys in
the school.
And to a certain extent- I mean,I definitely support, you know,
(10:32):
having dress codes and thingslike that, and I think that even
I was fortunate that even thoseconversations didn't go to the
kind of extreme level thatyou're talking about in your
book.
But I definitely was seeingthings that I recognized in your
experience either from somethingI had experienced growing up, or
(10:53):
even more than that things I'veheard from so many friends over
the years who also grew up inthe purity culture.
And just so that we make surethat everyone who's listening is
clear about what we're talkingabout in your book, you do
contrast the purity culturemovement, which developed a
specific point in time- You talkabout kind of the mid to late
(11:15):
90s into the early 2000s, aboutthe time we were in middle
school and high school- Youcontrast that with biblical
sexual ethics, which had beenthe same throughout history.
So what do you think helped tofuel the creation of this purity
culture movement and how was itdifferent from what had come
(11:37):
before it and what the Churchhad usually been teaching about
sexual ethics?
Rachel Joy Welcher (11:41):
That's a really good question.
I think what fueled the modernpurity movement, which I focus
on in my book, was a reaction tojust this influx of and fear of
STDs and teen pregnancy comingout of the seventies and
eighties.
And so it was very fear-basedand reactionary.
(12:02):
It began being taught, not justin churches, but also in public
schools through abstinenceeducation.
And so this was a Christian-well, the message came usually
from Christian environments, butit eventually bled into the
schools.
And once it became governmentfunded, Jesus had to be taken
(12:25):
out of it.
So you ended up with thisChristian subculture called
purity culture that had somethings in common with biblical
sexual ethics and had othermessages that were entirely
unbiblical.
And I think untangling those twothings is what I'm trying to do
in my book and what I wasn'table to do as well.
(12:46):
When I was a teenager, I justtook it all in without
discerning the difference,because it was Christians who
were telling me those things.
Amy Mantravadi (13:00):
Yeah, and you mentioned a lot of different
books in your own book that youspend time interacting with and
critiquing and really getting tothe part of what their messages
were.
And I definitely remembereveryone reading- It seemed like
everyone was reading, at least,Wild at Heart and Captivating,
and everyone had those books ForWomen Only and For Men Only.
(13:25):
And they'd be[in] not just allthe Christian bookstores, but
they were at Barnes and Noble.
They were being given to allkinds of people.
And then that was around thesame time- particularly I think
under the George W.
Bush administration, there was areal emphasis on government
working with faith-basedinitiatives.
(13:45):
But of course, when you'retaking government money, like
you said, you can't be pushingreligion on people.
So you have to kind of take someof the specific Christian-ness
out of it and you kind of getleft with this moralism.
And so definitely that wasjogging my memory as well.
(14:05):
And yeah, you spend a lot oftime focusing on those primary
books that were associated withthe purity culture movement that
were released in the late 90sand early 2000s, and one thing
you say about them is that,"Books that were meant to be
tasted began filling the shelvesat Christian bookstores and
parents bought them for theirteenagers who swallowed them
(14:27):
whole.
There was an assumption thatanything about purity written by
a Christian would be not onlysafe, but helpful." And that
really resonated with me because- I'm sure we've all been to
places- You'll go to Hobby Lobbyand you'll see they have books
there at the checkout, or you goto Walmart and they'll have a
Christian section, or even atBarnes and Noble the"Christian"
(14:50):
section, and some of the stuffthere is good, but also I think
most of us would look at it andsay, there are some things there
that kind of make us scratch ourhead.
Like, does that really belong inthe Christian section or what is
this?
But there is that same feeling,especially when we're so
overloaded with things in ourlives and so busy and wanting to
(15:12):
do something to help our kidsthat we're just like,"Oh, well,
this looks like a good Christianbook on the cover, so it must be
good." And wanting out of a gooddesire to do something, just
handing that off to somebody.
And what it makes me wonder,something that we could apply to
our own lives today is what doesthis tendency we have- What does
(15:33):
it say about our generalpurchasing habits and how we're
raising our children?
And did you have any thoughtsabout that in relation to the
research that you did?
Rachel Joy Welcher (15:45):
Well, I think it's interesting.
I did a conference just a coupleof years ago, talking about
aspects from my book before mybook was completed.
But after the seminar, a fatherraised his hand and said,"Well,
what books can we give ourchildren, our teenagers?" And I
think that's always the questionthat I'm asked.
I get messages about it a lotwhere they'll say,"Ok, well, I
(16:08):
see that you're tacklingdestructive messages in these
core period of books.
So which book can I give mykid?" The desire behind that is-
I think a lot of humility- is aparent saying, I'm not an expert
on this.
Let's give my kid a book writtenby someone who has researched
it.
And I really respect that andunderstand.
(16:29):
I think there's even somedesperation there for parents of
teenagers, where they're justgrasping for anything to guide
their teen in this formative anddifficult time where they're
going through puberty and theyhave all these questions.
So when I was growing up, a lotof parents- my parents talked to
me about sexuality and there wasan openness there and they were,
(16:50):
they gave me very solidteaching, but at the time all of
us teenagers were reading thesebooks, and I don't think that
our parents really understoodeverything that was in them.
And like you said, I mentionedthat because they were written
by Christians, there was anassumption that they were safe,
but as a high school Englishteacher, I would contrast the
(17:14):
way that we study literature inschool, where we just- you know,
students, it drives them crazy,but you analyze the heck out of
a book, right?
You pick out the worldviews andthe themes and the symbolism and
you write multiple essays on it.
And we didn't do that with thesebooks.
Instead, we read them inisolation.
So even though my friends werealso reading I Kissed Dating
(17:36):
Goodbye, I don't remember usever talking about those books
together in a way that wasanalytical or parsing through
it.
We were all just reading themtogether, but separately.
And what happened was, I thinkwe internalized some of the
wrong teaching right along withthe biblical teaching, and it's
(17:57):
caused some damage.
I mean, you and I've seen it.
We watch people on Twittertalking about where they're at
now, and some people have becomeso frustrated realizing that
these teachings weren't true,that they're actually walking
away, not just from theunbiblical teachings, but
they're walking away from theChurch altogether.
So it's a real problem.
(18:18):
I mean, we are seeing the rippleeffect of this, of these books.
Amy Mantravadi (18:25):
And when you mention the unbiblical teachings
there, I'm trying to think backat some of the ones that you
mentioned, were- one that Ialluded to where females are
seen to have a kind ofresponsibility for male sexual
behavior.
And that definitely plays intowhat you're talking about with
(18:47):
sexual abuse victims, becausehow do you interpret that?
If a woman is sexually abused,was that somehow her fault as
well?
I don't mean to put you on thespot, but what were maybe a
couple other- just in casepeople aren't aware, with these
books- what a couple other ofthe issues, problematic issues
(19:10):
with them would be beyond whatwe've already talked about?
Rachel Joy Welcher (19:14):
Right.
Well, one of the issues is justthat in order to motivate
teenagers, to pursue sexualabstinence- instead of saying,
"It's for the glory of God.
Obedience is an act of worshipfor Christians, however
imperfectly we perform it." Youthink about abstinence education
(19:34):
in public schools.
If you can't talk about theworthiness of Christ, then you
have to think of a different wayto motivate these teenagers to
not have sex, and so the carrotthat was dangled in front of
these kids and in front of meeven to an extent, was not
obedience for God's glory, butthis promise that if I stayed
(19:56):
pure, I would get married.
And the assumption was alwaysthat you'd get married within a
reasonable timeframe.
I don't know if that was statedin any of the books, but it just
is what all of us assumed.
You get married.
You'd have mind blowing sex fromnight one, and you would have
children with ease.
That's a direct quote from oneof the books that if you avoid
(20:17):
premarital sex, you'll actually"have children with ease,"
meaning you won't struggle withinfertility.
So there were these kind of corepromises that not only are not
from scripture, but they alsoneglected realities like
same-sex attraction.
What did that say to teens whowere struggling with same sex
(20:38):
attraction?
What about those who stillaren't married and they're in
their 30s and 40s?
What about those been sexuallyabused?
What about those who aredivorced, like me?
What about those who strugglewith infertility?
You end up with this sort ofprosperity gospel and purity
teaching that you have a falloutfrom, and all these people are
(21:01):
now grappling with brokenpromises and God never made
those promises, but they camefrom Christian books.
And so a lot of people areassociating those promises with
the Church and withChristianity.
Amy Mantravadi (21:16):
Yeah.
Thank you for providing thatexplanation there, because I
think that'll be helpful to alot of people not only to
understand what you and I aretalking about, but also to think
back and realize,"Oh yeah, maybeI was hearing some of that stuff
as well." And definitely whereyou're talking about- as far as
(21:37):
the promises that were made bythose books, like you said, they
don't really gel with scripture,but in addition have not played
out in the experience of myselfor people I know.
It's almost as if they're sayingyou'll never suffer in your life
and we all know that that's nottrue.
So one thing I especiallyappreciate about your book was
(22:00):
all the interviews you conductedwith average Christians, who'd
been exposed to these purityculture teachings, and you
discussed how it had affectedtheir lives.
And many of those conversationswere really deeply personal that
you have with people.
And I totally understand whysome of them didn't want their
names included in the book, butwhat were some of the primary
things you took away from thosediscussions for yourself and how
(22:23):
did it affect your own thinkingabout these issues?
Rachel Joy Welcher (22:27):
You know, there was a real emotional toll
that those interviews took onme.
For those who are into theEnneagram, I'm an Enneagram 2,
and I'm also an extreme empath.
I really take people's storiesinto my heart and it's a little
bit hard for me to recover.
And so I remember the monthsthat I spent where- I do
(22:50):
multiple interviews a day-whether I was meeting with
people in person for coffee orover Zoom or the phone, people
were- you were right.
They shared with me things.
I mean, they really were honestwith me.
One of the things that wasparticularly difficult was just
how many Christians have beensexually abused.
I don't want to say I wassurprised, but it hurt me to
(23:13):
just to hear these stories, andnot only had so many of them
experienced abuse, but they'dexperienced it in the Church and
by other Christians.
And so just further complicatingthis narrative that if you do
good sexually, you'll besexually rewarded, and also
(23:33):
adding to this false guilt thatif you are sexually abused,
somehow it's your fault becauseyou could have or should have
prevented it.
I think that there was so muchmore of that than I realized
there would be.
And so it was a heavy time, butI was incredibly touched by how
open people were with me, and itproved to me that this topic is
(23:56):
one that is incredibly relevantright now: that our generation
is grappling with theseteachings and trying to sort out
the good and the bad.
And so that's really what camethrough is that I talked to
Christians from all differenttheological backgrounds.
Some had left the Church, somewere extremely conservative,
some were more liberal.
(24:17):
So I talked to really an arrayof Christians and there was a
common theme that purity culturedidn't get it all right.
And so that just proved to methat there was a need for this
book.
Amy Mantravadi (24:35):
Yeah, and while I certainly haven't done
anything like the wonderfulresearch that you've done on
this topic, I've had a fewconversations over the years
with people where they sharekind of how these teachings have
affected them, and many peoplewho- and increasingly people are
feeling empowered to talk aboutthis, that they have sexual
(24:58):
abuse in their backgrounds andoften happening with people they
know from the Church or fromtheir family.
And so it definitely...as youwere quoting from those
discussions, you had, I justimagined knowing how I had been
affected by having discussionslike that, that certainly that
would have been hard for you andalso not just for you, but how
(25:22):
difficult it is for all of thosepeople to be able to share that.
And I was just so glad that theywere willing to do that and felt
like they were in a safe placewhere they were able to do that.
So you have a great line in yourbook where you say that,
"Virginity does not provide herpurity.
(25:42):
Jesus does." I was wondering,could you explain that a little
bit for our listeners?
Rachel Joy Welcher (25:49):
Sure.
I think that was such animportant message I wanted to
communicate in my book becauseto just dismantle something is
not enough.
We have to know what, what do wedo instead?
What do we teach or believeinstead?
And so I wanted to dismantlethese dangerous teachings and
purity culture, but then I alsowanted to return to what is
(26:10):
actually true.
And so I have a whole chapter onthe way that purity culture
idolized virginity, especiallyfemale virginity.
And one of the things you'llnotice in purity culture books
is that there's this idea thatvirginity and sexual purity
actually determines one's worthas a person.
(26:31):
And again, specifically forwomen.
And so there's these metaphorsthat many of us are familiar
with, like the crumpled rose orthe chewed up gum or the used
car.
And these metaphors were meantto communicate what happened to
you when you sinned sexually.
But what these metaphors did wasnot just alert teenagers to some
(26:55):
of the dangers spiritual andotherwise of premarital sex, but
it also communicated that theywould lose personal worth if
they had sexual experiences.
And so I wanted to return to thetheological principle that our
purity, our salvation has itssource in Christ, and that is
(27:17):
unchangeable.
So whether you are sexuallyabused or you make sexual
mistakes and you sin, your worthas a person and an image bearer
of God does not change.
And not only that, I would arguethat we all have sexual
histories, whether it'ssomething you've done
physically, or it's just a lustin your mind, but we are all
(27:40):
sexual sinners and sexual sindoes not mean that you can't
have a healthy futurerelationship with a spouse or
with others in the Church orwith God.
And so we really have to returnto what is the source of our
salvation and the source of ourrighteousness.
It's not our own actions, it'sChrist's righteousness.
And so our purity really can'tchange no matter what has been
(28:04):
done to us or what we do.
And of course what we do mattersand what happens to us matters
to God, but it doesn't changeour worth.
Amy Mantravadi (28:14):
Yeah.
It's really a very impoverishedview of purity to not only just
to bring it down to sexualpurity, as opposed to purity it
all other things in life, butthen to bring it down to just,
"Have you had this oneparticular physical action that
you participated in or not,?" asopposed to a more holistic view
(28:40):
of,"What is your thought life?
Have you been looking atpornography?" And as far as
actual sexual intercourse itself, making no differentiation
between things you consented toand things you didn't consent
to.
And like you said, that kind ofimage of the crumpled up rose,
which if anyone's ever seen theTV show Jane the Virgin that was
(29:04):
out a few years ago- I think youmentioned it in your book- and
the very first episode, and thenthey come back to it again and
again- they show Jane as alittle girl and her grandma- she
crushes the flower and she says,"You can never go back!"
Certainly it is correct thatsexual sin is a big deal, and
(29:27):
it's something that God speaks alot against, but you know, the
idea that either a mistake youmade when you were a teenager or
even something that washorrificly done to you when you
were young, that you can neverpossibly recover from that and
be pure for the rest of yourlife certainly doesn't take into
(29:50):
account what it really means tobe pure and the power that God
has to sanctify us.
So I really a ppreciated thatyou talked about that.
Another important point you makein the book that we've alluded
to- it has to do with who'sultimately responsible for
maintaining sexual purity.
(30:10):
And another thing you write inthe book is that,"One of the
main problems with modesty rhetoric is that it draws on the
biblically unsupportable ideathat women are responsible for
the purity of men.
If a man l usts after a woman,it is because she failed to
protect him." And I know thatyou and I would both agree that
(30:31):
there are things women can dothat are not at all helpful to
men in helping them to maintainsexual purity.
But I think you're right topoint out that this is another
line of thinking that's beentaken to an unhelpful extreme.
And what kind of negativeconsequences has this mistaken
thinking had i n the Church andreally in society as a whole,
(30:54):
because I see this line ofthinking happening far beyond
the Church and just in societyin general?
Rachel Joy Welcher (31:01):
Well, I draw a connection and this is where
some people could get offended,but I hope they'll hear me out.
There really is a connectionbetween rape culture and purity
rhetoric, and it starts withthis idea, which is unbiblical,
that women are morally superiorto men and therefore morally
responsible for what bothgenders do sexually.
(31:24):
We don't see that in scripture.
You go back to the Sermon on theMount and Jesus talks about- if
a man lusts after a woman in hisheart, he's committed adultery.
We are each held responsible forour individual sins.
Now that's not to say that awoman couldn't be sinning by
trying to selfishly causesomeone to stumble: that's her
sin.
But if a man responds bysexually abusing her, that is
(31:46):
his sin.
And so I think it comes down toculpability.
Culpability gets very confusedwhen you teach that women are in
charge of the sexual actions ofmen.
This is where you get rapeculture, the idea that,"What was
she wearing when it happened?
Why did she go to that party?
Why did she walk down thatstreet?
(32:07):
She should've known better."That's rape culture rhetoric,
and you see that bleed intopurity culture with this idea
that women can somehow preventsexual assault: that it's within
our power to make sure itdoesn't happen.
That was basically stated inmultiple books, that if you act
in a certain way, men willrespect you and never abuse you.
(32:28):
To an extent it might be true.
There are certain things that wecan wear or ways that we can
dress that determine how peopleview us, but this idea that you
could actually prevent sexualabuse from happening just by
being an upstanding citizen (32:41):
we know that's not true.
The statistics prove otherwise.
And so I think that you see notonly women blamed for the sexual
abuse that happens to them, butyou even see Christian women
blamed for their husbands'sexual sin, because there's this
(33:02):
idea- and I actually just wrotean article about this for
Fathom, it'll be coming out nextmonth- but there's this idea
that if women, when they'reunmarried- they need to make
sure that they don't sexuallytempt men.
And then once they're married,they need to be giving their
husbands so much sex that he'llnever stray, which is a strange
way to look at it because itmakes it sound like men don't
have a moral responsibility: that they're constantly on the (33:27):
undefined
verge of sexual sin.
And it's only women's sexualfulfillment in marriage that
keeps them from exploding intoadultery.
So t here, you just get a lot ofreally harmful teachings that
come out of this idea that womenare responsible for both men and
(33:47):
women.
Amy Mantravadi (33:50):
Yeah.
And even some of these teachingsseem rather contradictory
because you talked about theidea that women are morally
superior and need to be having apositive influence on men to
prevent them from sinning.
But also historically, there'sbeen the idea out there that
women are basically seductressesand that women are morally
(34:14):
inferior and that's why youshouldn't be spending time
around them.
So a lot of this rhetoric, Imean, it's very fear-based, but
it also doesn't seem to be verywell- logically thought out.
Rachel Joy Welcher (34:27):
Yeah.
Sarah Moslener wrote a bookcalled Virgin Nation.
And if anyone who's listening isinterested in this particular
topic, she kind of traces thehistory of purity culture from
the Victorian era on and showshow teachings about women
changed based on what was tryingto be accomplished.
And so you'd see time periodswhere women were treated as
(34:50):
morally weak, and then it wouldswitch to men.
Women are morally superior andtherefore responsible.
And it's a very interesting bookto read, but in modern purity
culture, you get this idea thatcame from gender essentialism,
which is the idea that we'rekind of controlled by our base
instincts.
And men's instincts are alwaysbarbarian type instincts, and
(35:14):
women's are, again, morallysuperior, and these ideas do not
come from scripture.
They were secular thought, butthey influenced modern purity
culture rhetoric, which does setup women as the guardians of
purity.
Amy Mantravadi (35:28):
Yeah.
I think scripture is prettyclear that we all have a sinful
nature.
So apart from the work of God,we're all going to be drawn to
sinful actions, but at the sametime, we're all redeemable and
we all actually are morallyculpable for the things we do.
We can't just say,"The devilmade me do it," or,"The woman
(35:50):
you gave me made do it," oranything of that nature.
So you place a special focus inthe book on Christians who have
been sexually abused, are singleor same-sex attracted, or
struggle with infertility, andthose are all things you've
mentioned a little bit here.
(36:11):
I was wondering what are someways that the Church can be more
supportive and inclusive ofthese individuals?
And I would even add to thatlist, apart from just couples
who are infertile, couples whohave suffered miscarriages or
couples who just haven't hadchildren yet, or basically
(36:33):
anyone who doesn't fit into thatmodel of you get married in your
early twenties, you have kids byyour mid twenties: all the steps
that people want you to followand the boxes they want you to
check off.
I think that to a certainextent, anyone who doesn't fit
that model can start to feel alittle left out in the Church.
(36:54):
So what are some ways that theChurch can be supportive and
inclusive of all kinds of peoplein the Church?
Rachel Joy Welcher (37:01):
That's a great question.
I really wanted to address someof these neglected realities
that we face.
Another one, I talk about allthe ones you've listed and then
also even just painful sex inmarriage- where you can't have
sex for whatever reason.
That's something that purityculture never addressed: a
reality that so many of thepeople I interviewed actually
(37:21):
have dealt with either for shortseasons or for long ones,
depending on illness,depression, those kinds of
things.
I think one way that we can makesure we're being more inclusive
is to stop worshiping thenuclear family.
I mean, there's absolutelynothing wrong with rejoicing in
a couple getting married, havingchildren- those are beautiful,
(37:44):
good gifts from God and Iregularly rejoice even on my
Twitter feed in the marriage Godhas given me, because I have
seen divorce and despair.
And I believe that whatevercircumstance we're in, whether
it's singleness, marriage-whatever circumstance that we
find the ways that God isblessing us and we rejoice in
(38:07):
those things.
So it's not about downplayingthe beauty of marriage and
children, but the Church tendsto treat people as though that's
the norm.
And while it might be themajority, what it does is it
makes anyone who's not in thatbubble feel pushed to the
margins.
(38:29):
And so I think things as simpleas not constantly doing sermon
series on just two things-marriage and parenting- but also
talking about other issues likeloneliness- how to pursue Christ
in other ways.
But if every woman's event isabout how to be a good wife or a
good mom, you're leaving out somany women and so many men who
(38:53):
have different lives and theyare honoring the Lord.
They're living lives like Paulor like Jesus, where they are
fully dedicated in theirsingleness or in their celibacy,
or they're married, but they'rechildless and they're using
their gifts and their time forhis kingdom.
So I think it's about makingsure that we're not just always
focusing on the nuclear familyas though all Christians fit
(39:15):
into that mold.
And then it's also aboutappreciating those who don't
fall into that typical mold andrecognizing that they have their
own unique giftings to offer thechurch family.
I mean, ask a single to lead aBible study.
You don't have to be married tobe spiritually mature.
You don't have to have childrento have compassion or wisdom.
(39:37):
And so I think it's even aboutgiving people ministry
opportunities that don't fallinto the nuclear family.
Amy Mantravadi (39:45):
Yeah, and I'm sure some people will hear what
you said and despite all thequalifications you've given to
it, will just focus on,"Oh, shesays that we shouldn't be caring
about families!" Honestly, Ithink if you look back
throughout history, there was atime when the church really
idolized celibacy and that wasthe ideal that got raised up.
(40:11):
And then after the Reformation,there was maybe a correction of
saying no, it's good to be just-you don't have to be a monk in a
monastery.
You can be married, you can havechildren, and these are all good
and noble things.
But the Church, as with so manyissues, always has a tendency to
(40:32):
gravitate to one extreme or theother, right?
So either we're saying,"Beingmarried and having kids is the
ideal everyone should striveto," or,"Just being single and
giving all your time to serviceis the ideal." And I think that
what I'm hearing from you isthat we need to be not going to
(40:54):
one extreme or the other, but beembracing people at all- as Paul
talks about, you know, in 1Corinthians 7, where he talks
about (41:02):
it's good to not be married, but if you're in this
situation or that situation,yeah, be married.
I think that sometimes we missthe possibility that there could
be more than one way for someoneto be godly.
And also, I think our culturalmoment we're in right now where
we're really seeing thebreakdown of the family in a lot
(41:24):
of ways- I think that tends tocause a bit of an overreaction.
Rachel Joy Welcher (41:34):
You're pointing out too that it's very
much cultural, more thanbiblical, the way the pendulum
swings.
And so there was a time when Ithink celibacy was probably a
lot easier for Christiansbecause there was more of a
community (41:49):
there was more respect for it.
Whereas now I've heard some ofmy same-sex friends who aren't
in marriages say that celibacy-people look at them strange and
encourage them to marry someoneof the opposite gender, even if
they are not in that place wherethey feel like that's the right
(42:11):
thing to do.
Basically the Church seemsuncomfortable with prolonged
singleness and celibacy and asyou point out, that's an
overcorrection because if youlook at scripture, Jesus was
single.
Paul was single and some of myspiritual heroes, Amy Carmichael
, Rich Mullins, and HenryNouwen.
And they honored the Lord oftheir lives and they didn't have
(42:35):
spouses or children.
And so I am in no waydownplaying how beautiful a
family unit is or how good, andpursue it have as many babies as
you can if you want to do that,but it's what you said.
We shouldn't worship eitherstage or any particular
circumstance because the body ofChrist is meant to be diverse.
(42:56):
We flourish when we celebrateour differences and learn from
one another.
Sameness is not what we shouldseek in the church.
So I think just to go back toyour question about how do we
include those who've been pushedto the margins, another way is
to stop segregating our Biblestudies and small groups.
(43:16):
I think when we only talk aboutsexual purity to a group of
teenagers or a group of women inBible study, and we're always
having these conversations insegregation, all married or just
singles or just those whostruggle with pornography or
whatever the group is- it's notwrong to have those groups, but
(43:37):
I think we would benefit frommore diverse conversations about
sexuality.
I talk about in the book thiskind of dream I have that a
small group would study my bookand go through the questions
together.
And it would include a widow,someone who's divorced, a
married couple, singles,same-sex attracted-people from
all walks of life who could talkabout these things together and
(44:01):
realize that we have more incommon than we think, that unmet
longings come in all shapes andsizes, and we can share those
things together and pray for oneanother.
So I think it's also abouttrying to make sure we're not
always segregating people intotheir relationship status or
place in life, but seekingdiversity.
Amy Mantravadi (44:24):
Well, I think on that note, it's a really good
place to wrap it up.
I think we've been able tohopefully cover lot of what you
talk about in the book, butthere is a lot more for people,
so I would very much recommendthat you pick up a copy of
Rachel's book Talking Back toPurity Culture, which hopefully
by the time this podcast airswill be coming out very shortly
(44:48):
after that on November 10th.
Rachel, it's been a pleasure totalk to you and thank you once
again.
Rachel Joy Welcher (44:56):
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
Jon Guerra (44:58):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (45:26):
I really enjoyed my discussion with Rachel about
ways we can improve the Church'sapproach to issues of sexuality.
Her book, Talking Back to PurityCulture is published by
InterVarsity Press and will bereleased on November 10.
As I previously mentioned, themusic you've been hearing is the
song"Citizens" by John Guerraoff his album Keeper of Days.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode.
Allow me to send you off withthe benediction that comes at
(45:48):
the end of Paul's second letterto the Corinthians.
"The grace of the Lord JesusChrist, and the love of God, and
the fellowship of the HolySpirit be with you all." Amen.
Have a great week.
Jon Guerra (46:01):
Is there a way to love always?
Living in enemy hallways?
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
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