November 16, 2020 • 43 mins
This week's guest is Matthew Lee Anderson, author of The End of Our Exploring: A Book about Questioning and the Confidence of Faith. All of us have questions about God, the purpose of life, the problem of evil, and other serious issues. How do we ask those questions in a manner that honors God, and how can Christians create communities in which people feel free to explore? Also in this episode: The odd place Amy tried to read the book, an epic mix-up of nomenclature, and a reading from T.S. Eliot.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Guerra (00:07):
( MUSIC PLAYING) what is the meaning of
Christian?
I'm feeling fully foolishspending my life on a message
and no one ever heard it.
Right.
(MUSIC STOPS)
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, home of the famed NationalCash Register company- that is
until it moved to take advantageof favorable tax incentives.
Today, I'm going to beinterviewing Matthew Lee
Anderson, who has written a bookcalled The End of Our Exploring:
(00:48):
A Book about Questioning and theConfidence of Faith.
If you're a fan of the U.S.
version of The Office, you mightremember that Kelly Kapoor had a
lot of questions, the first ofwhich was,"How dare you?!" I
have a feeling that thisdiscussion will be taking a
somewhat more philosophicalturn.
Whether you're a Christian ornot, at some point in your life
(01:08):
you've surely been struck withquestions about the nature of
our universe and the meaning oflife.
Perhaps you've puzzled over theproblem of evil and wondered how
a good God could allow so muchsuffering in the world.
Maybe you've wondered whetherGod exists at all, or perhaps
you've simply been confused bythe idea that Jesus Christ could
be both God and man, and wantedto know how that could be.
Then there's the old standby: "What is my purpose in life?" (01:29):
undefined
Whatever your questions havebeen and will be, we're going to
talk about the best ways to goabout questioning in light of
what we believe about God.
I like to begin each episodewith a relevant scripture
passage or two.
I'll start by reading fromPaul's first letter to the
Corinthians in 1 Corinthians13:9-12.
(01:52):
He says,"For we know in part andwe prophesy in part, but when
the perfect comes, the partialwill be done away.
When I was a child, I used tospeak like a child, think like a
child, and reason like a child.
When I became a man, I did awaywith childish things.
For now, we see in a mirrordimly, but then face-to-face.
(02:12):
Now I know in part, but then Iwill know fully, just as I also
have been fully known." I'd liketo also read from the Book of
Job at the very end after Godhas appeared to Job and spoken
to him from the storm.
At that point, Job says,"I knowthat you can do all things and
that no purpose of yours can bethwarted.
(02:33):
'Who is this that hides counselwithout knowledge?' Therefore, I
have declared that which I didnot understand: things too
wonderful for me, which I didnot know.
'Hear now, and I will speak.
I will ask you and you instructme.' I have heard of you by the
hearing of the ear, but now myeye sees you.
Therefore I retract and I repentin dust and ashes." And that was
(02:55):
Job 42:2-6.
Thanks be to God for His Word.
Do keep those passages in mindas you listen to the interview,
and if you stick around to theend, you'll get to hear me read
some poetry.
Jon Guerra (03:07):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (03:17):
And I am here with Matthew Lee Anderson, who
has kindly joined me today totalk about his book, The End of
Our Exploring (03:24):
A Book about Questioning and the Confidence
of Faith.
Matthew was educated at the ToryHonors Institute at Biola
University and later at OxfordUniversity for his master's and
doctorate.
He has a number of endeavors tohis credit.
He is the founder of the websiteMere Orthodoxy and associate
(03:46):
fellow at the MacDonald Centerfor Theology, Ethics, and Public
Life at Oxford University.
He's a perpetual member of theTorrey Honors Institute and host
of the Mere Fidelity podcast.
And he's contributed articles toThe Gospel Coalition,
Christianity Today, TheWashington Post, and others.
He is currently the assistantresearch professor of ethics and
(04:09):
theology at the Institute forStudies of Religion at Baylor
University.
And his published works includeEarthen Vessels: Why Our Bodies
Matter to Our Faith and The Endof Our Exploring, which is the
book we're going to talk abouttoday.
And you can catch him on Twitter@mattleeanderson spelled the
usual way.
(04:29):
Now, after reading off thatimpressive resume, Matt, I
wanted to start out with kind ofa fun little conundrum to test
your education.
Matthew Lee Anderson (04:40):
Oh, no...
Amy Mantravadi (04:40):
No, I think you'll survive it.
So I may have mentioned to youthat I had wanted for a long
time to read this book and I hadnever gotten to it.
So earlier this year, when I wasgetting ready to give birth, I
noticed on the birth checklistthat I was given- it said,"Bring
something to read because youmight be at the hospital for
(05:03):
awhile before you give birth."And I was thinking, you know,
what do I have that I've beenmeaning to read for awhile?
And your book was the thing thatcame to mind.
So I put it in my bag with allthe other things that they tell
you you're supposed to bring tothe hospital.
Now I checked in on a Monday tobe induced.
(05:23):
I gave birth on a Wednesday.
I went home on a Friday.
So taking into accounteverything you know about these
things, how many chapters ofyour book do you think that I
completed during the five daysthat I was in the hospital?
Matthew Lee Anderson (05:43):
I genuinely hope it's zero.
Please tell me the answer iszero.
Amy Mantravadi (05:48):
Your fancy book learning paid off! You're right.
I did complete zero chapters ofyour book.
I think I made it through aboutthree pages in the really early
hours before anything washappening.
But yeah, after that, there wasdefinitely no reading that
happened the entire week, sothat's good.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:07):
I think that that's the craziest story
around my book that I haveheard.
That says a lot about you andjust how much of a masochist you
are that you're going in to givebirth- this is not an easy
thing.
And you're like,"Here's what Iwant to do.
I want to read The End of OurExploring while I'm ejecting a
(06:28):
human being from my body."That's the most insane life
choice that I think could bemade.
Amy Mantravadi (06:37):
Well, you may have a point there, but you
know, when I did get finallysome reading on the book done
was when my husband and I wentto change our cell phones over
to T-Mobile and that was a twohour ordeal.
And I did get some reading onthe book done then.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:53):
Good, good.
So you have read it?
Amy Mantravadi (06:54):
Yes, I have read it now.
Yes.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:59):
I haven't, so I'm curious to hear what you
make of it.
Amy Mantravadi (07:04):
Alright, as long as we're on the same page,
that's good.
So assuming that you haveactually read the book, thinking
back to the period in your lifewhen you wrote this book, were
there any particular aspects ofyour research or experience that
motivated you to do so at thatpoint in time?
Matthew Lee Anderson (07:26):
It's a long time ago now actually.
Amy Mantravadi (07:30):
It is, and this year alone seems like it's taken
about 20 years, so it was areally long time ago.
Matthew Lee Anderson (07:36):
Yeah, several lifetimes ago.
So I don't know that there wasanything in particular that
motivated me to write it besidesfame, glory, landing on the New
York Times Bestseller List,making a dent for Jesus, etc.,
etc.
Um, sheer narcissism, really?
Why does anyone write a book?
(07:57):
That's I think probably toocynical.
I was really distraught by whatseemed to me to be a pretty lazy
way of thinking about theintellectual life among
Christians who were roughlybetween the ages of 22 and 35,
(08:18):
the so-called Millennials.
It seemed to me that they wereusing doubt in ways that were
pretty destructive to what Itook to be authentic Christian
faith, and that they often justdidn't understand what it means
to question well, so I reallywanted to just disentangle doubt
(08:43):
from questioning.
I think personally, in certainways the book was a kind of
therapeutic for me because Iwanted to be able to question
better, really wanted to reflecton my own intellectual inquiry
and to reform some habits that Ihad gotten into.
(09:04):
And the only way I know how todo that is by staring those
things straight in the face andeventually writing something
about it.
So making my writing historywhat you will in light of that.
But I really did- as anundergraduate spent a lot of
time thinking about the faith.
(09:25):
I'm thinking about how the faithconnected to the world and my
life, and I really wanted to beable to reflect on that process
of thinking and inquiry and helpeven myself do it better than I
think I had to that point.
So there is an existentialdimension to it.
(09:45):
I did feel like when I wrote it,it would be potentially the last
thing that I wrote, which wasvery weird to have that thought
at such a young age.
But that thought did cross mymind and in book form that's
proved true actually (10:04):
it's the last book that I have written.
So it felt weighty to me in away that I think- it doesn't
always happen with a book, butto me, this one's, it's an
important one for me.
Amy Mantravadi (10:21):
And you definitely in the book draw a
lot on your own experiences ofteaching and trying to guide
students through their ownprocess of questioning, and it
definitely seems like that wassomething that was motivating to
you.
And one point you make in thebook is that if Christians
aren't taught to question well,they'll almost certainly
(10:42):
question badly.
And I'd like to discuss a few ofthe ways that you say our
questions tend to come up short.
You go back to the temptation ofAdam and Eve in the garden of
Eden and you highlight how thequestions they asked or the
questions Eve asked, I shouldsay were not neutral.
They definitely had a slant andjust a quote from your book- you
(11:05):
say,"It would be convenient tothink that our questions are
immune from the fundamentalconflict of right and wrong-
that they're quarantined fromthe possibility of confession
and repentance.
But the first moment ofquestioning well is the
recognition that as a humanendeavor, our questioning is
fallen and broken, entangledwith sin, and in need of
reformation." So in light ofthat, how can we discern if our
(11:30):
questions are coming from agenuine spirit of faith seeking
understanding, or from a placeof rebellion against that?
Matthew Lee Anderson (11:38):
Yeah, it's a good question, and it's
something that I worry about anytime I talk with people about
questioning because it'spossible to make people seem too
self-conscious about whether ornot their question is a good
one.
And you see that a lot with-especially people who are young
(12:01):
or young in the faith.
They really will hesitate to asktheir questions because they
think that they need to ask awell-formed question in order to
do so.
And I really- that bothers me.
I think generally the bestquestion that we can ask is the
question that burns most withinus, the question that we can't
help ourselves from asking, andwhether or not that's a
(12:24):
well-formed question, whether ornot that's the right question
the right time, it might not be.
And hopefully over the course ofa lifetime, we'll get better at
discerning how to form ourquestions well, how to ask them
at the right time.
But I think that one way we candiscern whether or not we're
asking the right questions iswhether we can contain it,
right?
(12:44):
Can we prevent ourselves fromasking this question or does it
just seem like it weighs on usso heavily that we can't not ask
it?
I think about Paul's language,you know, the love of Christ
impels me to do this thing,right?
Like it wells up within me.
And I think a good question hasthat sort of spirit within it.
There's a sense of inquiry, asense of deep desire that it
(13:08):
expresses and that covers amultitude of sins.
And so when I talk withstudents, I really just want
them to ask their questions, notthe questions that they think
will make them look smart to theclass where they'd be posturing,
(13:28):
or look smart to the professor,not the questions that they
think are the right questions,but the questions that indicate
their own sense of confusion andthat are oriented towards
finding peace from thatconfusion.
So I really do want to setpeople free to question and as
(13:48):
they question, as they practicethat, to reflect on the practice
itself and to hopefully thenquestion better, but that only
comes through an experience offreedom where we just start
asking the questions that wehave, because we can't do
anything else.
There's no sort of adoptingsomeone else's question and
making it our own and saying,"Oh, now I've got the right
(14:10):
question." That just doesn'twork.
Amy Mantravadi (14:14):
You had a quote that seemed to be pretty
influential in your book fromRainer Maria Rilke.
Hopefully I pronounced thatcorrectly.
And she talks about, she says,"You must now live the
questions.
One day perhaps you willgradually and imperceptibly live
your way into the answer." Wedon't typically think of
(14:36):
questioning as a way of life, oras answers that- something we
live, but you write in responseto her quote that,"We will live
ourselves into the answers onlyif we live the questions while
orienting them around the goodand the true that are revealed
in the person of Jesus." So howshould we as Christians live
(15:00):
questions, as opposed to a non-believer?
What makes our questioningunique in light of the fact that
we're followers of Christ?
Matthew Lee Anderson (15:10):
Yeah, that's funny.
I'd forgotten that I had quotedRilke.
I almost regret doing thatbecause that's one of those
lines that hipster millennialswould put on their Facebook
pages because we all hadFacebook before Twitter and be
(15:30):
like,"Look, I'm a deep person!I'm living the questions!" So I
regret a little bit turning tothat.
It says something about me that-that's true about me at the
time, but...
Amy Mantravadi (15:44):
Is there anything else from the book
you'd like to recant at thismoment?
Matthew Lee Anderson (15:50):
"Have you ever quoted Rilke in your life?"
"Yes, I have.
I'm sorry! I'm sorry!" No, Ithink that there's something
within the faith that diminishesthe existential need to get the
(16:10):
right answers paradoxically,right?
There's something about knowingthat Christ is the answer to the
question that allows us to sitin ambiguity and sit in the
uncertainty of not knowing muchelse.
(16:31):
And that I think is a wonderfultype of disposition to have
towards the world.
It's in fact a dispositiontoward the world that animates a
sense of wonder towards it.
Which is to say, because we havethe answer that is Christ, we're
free to look at all of the restof creation and to receive it as
(16:54):
a gift and to marvel at it, andto not feel like through our
questioning, we have to kind ofdominate it, or we've got to
search out every nook and crannyof it in order to be whole.
I do think there's somethingvery diseased about how moderns
think about knowledge and thesearch for knowledge.
(17:16):
I try to avoid sort oftypecasting modernity and the
like, but I do think that thereis something to that.
It's not incidental forinstance, that the last Mars
expedition, the Mars rover wasnamed Curiosity.
That this impulse towardscuriosity is an impulse: that's
(17:38):
a kind of frenetic search forknowing everything.
And within the tradition,Christian tradition, that's a
sin, right?
That sense of coming to knowwhat's not known is indicative
of a malformed intellectualdesire.
And I think knowing Christ freesus from those malformed
(18:02):
intellectual desires.
It frees us to not know, butalso not in the sort of cheap
like- well, you know,"It's allgray areas.
We don't really know any answershere, right?" The not knowing is
a kind of wonder and joy anddelight because there are
answers there.
You just don't know what theyare yet.
And in receiving creation as agift, you can delight in it in
(18:27):
such a way that you can lingerover it and you don't have to
hurry to answers, but you'regoing to get there eventually.
And I think that that sense ofrestful inquiring is- it's
paradoxical.
It's very hard to describe howit is uniquely Christian.
I don't think that we see itvery much.
(18:48):
I think a writer like Augustinein Confessions displays,
especially as the book goesalong.
But I think that that restfulsense of inquiry or searching
is, to me, what's possiblewithin the Christian life.
Amy Mantravadi (19:06):
It makes me think very much about the times
when I've just on my own beenstudying about the Trinity, and
that's a subject that we'renever going to be able to
totally understand.
So there have been theologianswho have gotten themselves in
trouble almost by trying todelve too much into things that
(19:27):
scripture is silent about, butthere is always that frustration
of- especially when we're tryingto know about God, that that's
something that feels soessential to everything we are.
And yet we have to be contentwith a certain degree of
mystery.
So that's where faith comes in,I guess, that you have to be
(19:47):
content with what you've beengiven.
So I think you have some goodthoughts about that.
Yeah, definitely.
Matthew Lee Anderson (19:55):
And I mean, that sense of speculation
about the Trinity, right?
Like as you say, it gets peopleinto trouble.
And by contrast, the Trinity,the mysteries of the Christian
faith are meant to becontemplated.
And through being contemplated,they're meant to shape us as
lovers, as people who desirethese things.
(20:15):
And that sense of contemplationcan't be a kind of
subordination, right?
We can't dominate the thing thatwe're contemplating.
The whole point of contemplatingit is that it's distinct from
us, that it's endless, that evenin knowing it we can't, in fact,
overwhelm it or bring it intoourselves in its fullness, that
(20:37):
there will always be somedimension of it that remains
unknown to us.
And that sense of lovingcontemplation is to me the art
of questioning.
Amy Mantravadi (20:49):
When we think about questioning and scripture,
at least for me, one of thethings that first comes to my
mind is the Book of Job, whichis a long contemplation on the
mysteries of life.
And you talk about it as a goodexample of how God asks
questions of us and not just theother way around.
And a quote from your book (21:09):
You say that,"Our assurance as
Christians is not rooted in ourown knowledge and love of God,
but in God's knowledge and loveof us." And that made me think
very much of what Paul says in 1Corinthians 13, where he says,
"For now we see in a mirrordimly, but then face-to-face.
Now I know in part, but then Iwill know fully just as I also
(21:32):
have been fully known." So canyou talk a little more about how
that shift in focus to faith andknowledge that comes to us from
God, rather than what we gainthrough our own pursuits?
Matthew Lee Anderson (21:46):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned the 1
Corinthians passage.
That"even as we are fully known"has been for me the secret pivot
point of all of Paul's theology.
(22:06):
It shows up at a couple pointsin his thought.
It happens in Galatians as well,I think, where he says,"For
those of us who know God," andhe catches himself and says,"Or
rather are known by him." Thefact that we're known by God
means that we're real.
(22:29):
So there's a weird medievaldoctrine that basically says
that things have being, becauseGod knows them rather than the
other way around, like God can'tknow false things.
And I think that being known byGod is- it means that we have a
reality and a substance and anexistence that is inviolable,
(22:52):
right?
That's not going to go away.
So from my standpoint, thefreedom to question well just
hinges upon that (23:01):
that it doesn't matter which direction I
turn in my intellectual life,I'm hemmed in by a God who's
gone there before me and who iswalking with me, who is
accompanying me, guiding me,directing me in that pursuit.
(23:22):
I think it's such a remarkableimage.
I've totally forgotten what yourquestion is.
I was just so enraptured.
Sorry.
Amy Mantravadi (23:31):
No, that's okay.
I do think that if we startgoing on out about medieval
theories of being, we're goingto lose any listeners that we
had.
Matthew Lee Anderson (23:40):
I apologize.
I apologize.
Amy Mantravadi (23:43):
I know from personal experience that a lot
was written that could probablyput a lot of people to sleep.
The question- you partiallyanswered it, I think- I asked if
you could talk about the shiftin focus from faith and
knowledge that comes to us fromGod, rather than the other way
around.
And I think that you addressedthat.
Matthew Lee Anderson (24:03):
Yeah, and I mean, I'm all about reducing
the anxiety of the Christianlife: diminishing the sense of
possessiveness, diminishing thesense of that.
Our security depends upon usgetting the right answers.
And I've got a correspondentright now: a young fellow who's
(24:25):
in college who just cannotfathom getting the wrong answer
about an issue even ofsignificant importance.
He just can't deal with it.
And there's such an underlyingconcern that he has, that his
(24:45):
salvation is going to beimperiled.
If he gets the wrong answerabout, say,"I don't know what
Jesus thinks about marriage."And I think that you have to be
able to balance an affirmationof the importance of these
issues without descending intothis notion that we're somehow
saved on the basis of how rightour answers are about them.
(25:08):
And that's the line that I'mtrying to walk.
I really want people to careabout what the right answers
are, because I think it willmatter for how a person's life
goes at the end of the day.
We're saved by a being- a person- and the doctrines that we
affirm around that are shorthands for that person's
(25:29):
character, and allow us todescribe that person in ways
that matter for communication toothers.
But if we don't describe thatperson fully accurately, or we
get some of the doctrines wrong,we're still saved by the person.
And so I think that we can learnand grow.
I mean, John's line that theHoly spirit"will lead us into
(25:52):
all truth" just means that theChurch and us are in a position
at one point in our lives whenwe're not in all truth.
And that's a time that we willbe in at some point, which I
hope diminishes the sense ofanxiety that people might have.
We don't have to have it allright.
Right now, the beginning ofwisdom is seek wisdom.
Amy Mantravadi (26:16):
Yeah, I think that's a good word.
I, like so many people, dealwith anxieties in my spiritual
life.
So I think it is always good tokeep our focus where it needs to
be.
Another thing in your book ishow churches tend to be very
good at discipling us in joy,but not very good at discipling
(26:38):
us in lament.
You said,"They've not taught usabout mourning, and in moments
when sin and brokenness comeupon us, we don't know how to
respond." So this is a pointI've heard raised by a lot of
people recently (26:52):
that our Christian culture and
contemporary America doesn'thave any place for lament,
despite the fact that scripturetalks so much about- gives so
much space to lamenting.
What are some practical ways youthink that we could introduce
this into our churches andreorient our thinking a little
(27:13):
closer to a historic Christianunderstanding of suffering, as
opposed to one that I think hasbeen very heavily influenced by
pursuing the American dream andthe culture that we live in now.
Matthew Lee Anderson (27:26):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it's interesting to me.
I do have the vanity to go lookand see what people are
highlighting on Kindle andunequivocally that section on
lament is the most highlightedof the whole book on Kindle.
(27:51):
The people who read it on Kindleresonated with that section more
than anything else, and I foundthat very interesting to me.
It indicated a kind of desirefor some type of religious
experience that we're beingdenied.
(28:12):
And I don't know how we cancompensate for that besides
reading the Psalms regularly asa part of our corporate worship
and as a part of our privateworship.
I mean, God allows such spacefor lament in scripture, that he
has a whole book dedicated to itin Lamentations, right?
(28:34):
Jeremiah is just not going tohold back.
But the Psalms are the center ofsort of moral formation for the
Christian life.
They're the place where we cando the most therapy within our
souls.
And I think praying the Psalmsregularly as a people allows us
(28:58):
to have language for lament inour corporate worship that
wouldn't come up otherwise.
It would only come up on specialoccasions and that prepares us
for moments when we need it, sothat when we experience trauma,
when we experience sorrow, wehave the language of the Psalms
(29:18):
ready to go as a part of ourtheological vocabulary.
And I just think that we have tomake that the centerpiece of our
spiritual lives.
And I don't, I don't know whatelse to do.
Amy Mantravadi (29:35):
No, and I mean, I really put you on the spot and
it's hard to come up with all ofa sudden five different things.
I think you've hit on a big one,which is that, depending on what
liturgical tradition you're in-if you go to an Anglican church
using the Book of Common Prayer,then you're on a regular cycle
through the Psalms every 60 daysor however many days, and you're
(29:58):
constantly getting exposed tothat.
And there are other traditionsas well that either will sing
only from the Psalms or reallyincorporate a lot of the Psalms
in their singing, but otherChristian traditions- they might
not be incorporated as much.
So I think if you are teachingthrough the whole counsel of
scripture in some manner, thenyou do unavoidably come to those
(30:24):
passages and have to deal withthem.
Whereas if you're not doingthat, then those are the kinds
of passages that might getavoided.
They just don't make people feelvery good when they leave church
in the morning always.
But I think they would for- thefact is that people are always
coming to church with thingsthey're lamenting about in their
hearts, and if they feel likeit's never being addressed,
(30:46):
they're never getting anyresources for how to deal with
that, then maybe that is whatthey need to be leaving and
feeling a lot better.
Matthew Lee Anderson (30:55):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I mean, one of the other thingsI would say is in my first book
on the body, I defended thepractice of having church
graveyards where we would burythe dead of the Christian
community at the place where wewould worship.
(31:15):
I think that also allows for aform of lament because it keeps
markers of our mortality allaround us.
It doesn't allow us to forgetthe fact that we are headed
towards death, which is not afact we can forget for very
long.
But I think having a kind of-even a spatial environment that
(31:41):
allows for lament- and this isone thing that chapels, I think,
in a church help with (31:45):
nooks and crannies, where people can hang
out and cry, versus huge openspaces where that's all we have,
right?
Even if there were a sort oflamenting chapel in a church
where it was known that that wasthe place where you could go to
(32:05):
deal with your grief and maybeeven be prayed for it.
I think there are properlyevangelical ways of doing this,
but I I'd like to see somecreativity among churches on it.
Amy Mantravadi (32:19):
Well, women have that
and that's why we go in groups.
Matthew Lee Anderson (32:28):
I have no comment.
Amy Mantravadi (32:29):
No, that's fine.
We would welcome another room ifthat were possible.
One of the first things thatChristians tend to do when they
experience doubts about someaspect of their faith is to
disconnect themselves in variousways from the body of Christ.
And you talk about this and howour questioning has a tendency
(32:51):
to turn our focus inward ratherthan outward to helping others,
but part of that also involveshaving Christian communities
that are open to dealing withquestions together.
So beyond what we've discussedso far, are there any other ways
that you could think of forchurches and Christian
communities to create anatmosphere that's supportive of
(33:15):
faithful questioning.
I mean, there are people who askquestions just to provoke or to
tear down, but we're thinking ofpeople who have genuine
questions about their faith andwant to pursue it in a God-like
way.
Matthew Lee Anderson (33:27):
Yeah, so that makes me think of one more
mark for people to think on asthey ask whether they're
questioning well.
If it's expanding our capacityto do good work, then we're
questioning well, right?
If I'm more disposed to go serveat my neighborhood soup kitchen
(33:48):
in light of my intellectualinquiries, then I think you can
have a high degree of confidencethat I'm asking the right sort
of questions.
And I think that that mattersfor a community because the
types of communities wherepeople feel alienated because of
their questions are to mecommunities that have not
(34:08):
integrated the cognitive side ofthe faith with the works of
service that we're called to asChristians.
It's very hard to leave acommunity if they're really
immersed in serving theirneighbor, regardless of how much
they might struggle to give youan answer for your question.
(34:31):
And in my experience, thecommunities that are most
immersed in serving theirneighbor are most alive to the
suffering and the grief and thepain and the difficult realities
of the world, which are thecentral source of most people's
doubts, right?
So people who are puttingthemselves in contexts where
they would be prone to doubt allthe time- I think we'll have a
(34:53):
kind of generosity towards thosewho do doubt, cause they'll get
it right.
I think that I in certainrespects get all the
proclivities or inclinations toleave the faith.
It's at points been attractiveto me, and the points when it's
been most attractive to me havebeen when the Christian
(35:16):
community has failed in someparticular way.
They failed to uphold theintegrity of their convictions
and failed to loveappropriately, and that inclines
me to leave a community.
And so I think in terms ofcreating community that's
(35:37):
hospitable to those who arequestioning, that's the first
thing.
Now, I think that the secondthing has got to be leaders who
are themselves wondering aboutthe world and their faith- who
are leading the community in theprocess of delighting, in
(35:58):
learning new things about whatit means to be a Christian and
what we're called to and doing.
So not in a grand standing way,but because it's an organic part
of their Christian faith,pastors should retreat into
their studies and read just forthe fun of it.
(36:19):
And if that means readingnovels, rather than reading
theology, that's fine.
As long as those novels arenovels by Anthony Trollope and
they're not watching Netflix.
You knew it was going to come upat some point, right?
But I do think that pastors needto be learners first and they
(36:43):
will set the tone and thetrajectory for their community,
and if they are themselveslearning appropriately, they'll
have lots of room for those whoare struggling in the faith to
ask their questions in ways thatare not threatening to the
structure of the community.
The only way bad questioning canbe reformed is in the presence
(37:03):
of those who are questioningwell, so I think that those are
two central dimensions.
I'm not sure about otherpractices and I'd be interested
in hearing from listeners andfrom you what people should do
because to me it's a hardproblem.
Amy Mantravadi (37:19):
Yeah, I think that the things you've already
mentioned are good places tostart, and I think that when it
comes to asking questions thatare really personal, as these
questions often are, we have tohave strong personal
relationships with people.
I've had people ask me in thepast- because I've sometimes
(37:42):
talked about my own struggleswith depression and anxiety-
"What should I do to try to helpsomeone if they're thinking
about wanting to commit suicideso that they'll talk to me and
tell someone?" And I said,"Well,if you don't already have a
relationship with them wherethey feel like they trust you,
they're not going to come to youwith this deepest, darkest thing
that they're dealing with." So Ithink that would also be true
for our questioning (38:05):
that we have to focus on building strong
relationships within churchbodies, and a lot of ink has
been spilled on that topicalready.
So I don't think I'm going toadd anything more to it, but I'd
say in general, that would be agood thing.
And when it comes to reading inyour free time, make sure to
also check out the novels of Amy Mantravadi, w hich are
(38:27):
recommended for you when you'regoing to study, in addition to
the novels of Trollope.
So I think that probably aboutsums up our discussion for
tonight.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's been great.
Matthew Lee Anderson (38:45):
Thanks for having me on, Amy.
I've really enjoyed it.
Jon Guerra (38:49):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (39:15):
It was great to have Matt on the podcast today.
However, it's time I let you inon two little secrets.
The first is that I am not yetperfected in knowledge and have
many questions yet to ask.
The second is that I have neverread Rilke.
That possibly explains how Imanaged to not only mispronounce
his name, but also referred tohim as a she.
(39:37):
A lesser podcast host would tryto find some creative way to
edit out that mistake, and Iadmit the thought crossed my
mind, but I have decided it isbetter to let you know that your
host is in fact a fallible humanbeing.
The one solace I take in all ofthis is that by my guest's own
definition, my lack of knowledgeabout Rilke has perhaps ensured
(39:59):
that I am not a hipstermillennial.
Matt's book, The End of OurExploring, is available from
Moody Publishers.
That title happens to come froma famous poem by T.S.
Eliot, the last of his FourQuartets, with which I happily
do have some familiarity.
The poem itself is called"LittleGidding" and happens to be one
of my favorites.
(40:19):
Allow me to just read the lastsection to you, both to
compliment today's discussionand to convince you that I have
some minor degree ofappreciation for literature.
"What we call the beginning isoften the end and to make and
end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from.
And every phrase and everysentence that is right(where
(40:41):
every word is at home, takingits place to support the others,
the word neither diffident norostentatious, an easy commerce
of the old and the new, thecommon word exact without
vulgarity, the formal wordprecise but not pedantic, the
complete consort dancingtogether) Every phrase and every
(41:02):
sentence is an end and abeginning, every poem an
epitaph.
And any action is a step to theblock, to the fire, down the
sea's throat or to an illegiblestone: and that is where we
start.
We die with the dying (41:15):
See, they depart, and we go with them.
We are born with the dead (41:20):
See, they return, and bring us with
them.
The moment of the rose and themoment of the yew-tree are of
equal duration.
A people without history is notredeemed from time, for history
is a pattern of timelessmoments.
So, while the light fails on awinter's afternoon, in a
secluded chapel, history is nowand England.
(41:44):
With the drawing of this Loveand the voice of this
Calling...We shall not ceasefrom exploration, and the end of
all our exploring will be toarrive where we started and know
the place for the first time.
Through the unknown,unremembered gate when the last
of earth left to discover isthat which was the beginning; at
(42:04):
the source of the longest river,the voice of the hidden
waterfall, and the children inthe apple-tree.
Not known, because not lookedfor, but heard, half-heard in
the stillness between two wavesof the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always--Acondition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less thaneverything) And all shall be
(42:27):
well and all manner of thingshall be well when the tongues
of flames are in-folded into thecrown, not of fire and the fire
and the rose are one." The suns,another episode of the
(A)Millennial podcast.
Thanks so much for joining me.
The music you've been hearing isthe song citizens by John Guerra
off his album Keeper of Days.
(42:49):
Now I'll send you off with abenediction from scripture in
Numbers 6:24-26.
"The Lord bless you and keepyou.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
The Lord lift up his countenanceon you and give you peace."
Amen.
Have a great week!
Jon Guerra (43:10):
(MUSIC PLAYING) Is there a way to love always?
Living and ending in hallways.
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
(43:31):
(MUSIC STOPS)
( MUSIC PLAYING) what is the meaning of
Christian?
I'm feeling fully foolishspending my life on a message
and no one ever heard it.
Right.
(MUSIC STOPS)
Amy Mantravadi (00:28):
Welcome to the (A)Millennial podcast, where we
have theological conversationsfor today's world.
I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi,coming to you live from Dayton,
Ohio, home of the famed NationalCash Register company- that is
until it moved to take advantageof favorable tax incentives.
Today, I'm going to beinterviewing Matthew Lee
Anderson, who has written a bookcalled The End of Our Exploring:
(00:48):
A Book about Questioning and theConfidence of Faith.
If you're a fan of the U.S.
version of The Office, you mightremember that Kelly Kapoor had a
lot of questions, the first ofwhich was,"How dare you?!" I
have a feeling that thisdiscussion will be taking a
somewhat more philosophicalturn.
Whether you're a Christian ornot, at some point in your life
(01:08):
you've surely been struck withquestions about the nature of
our universe and the meaning oflife.
Perhaps you've puzzled over theproblem of evil and wondered how
a good God could allow so muchsuffering in the world.
Maybe you've wondered whetherGod exists at all, or perhaps
you've simply been confused bythe idea that Jesus Christ could
be both God and man, and wantedto know how that could be.
Then there's the old standby: "What is my purpose in life?" (01:29):
undefined
Whatever your questions havebeen and will be, we're going to
talk about the best ways to goabout questioning in light of
what we believe about God.
I like to begin each episodewith a relevant scripture
passage or two.
I'll start by reading fromPaul's first letter to the
Corinthians in 1 Corinthians13:9-12.
(01:52):
He says,"For we know in part andwe prophesy in part, but when
the perfect comes, the partialwill be done away.
When I was a child, I used tospeak like a child, think like a
child, and reason like a child.
When I became a man, I did awaywith childish things.
For now, we see in a mirrordimly, but then face-to-face.
(02:12):
Now I know in part, but then Iwill know fully, just as I also
have been fully known." I'd liketo also read from the Book of
Job at the very end after Godhas appeared to Job and spoken
to him from the storm.
At that point, Job says,"I knowthat you can do all things and
that no purpose of yours can bethwarted.
(02:33):
'Who is this that hides counselwithout knowledge?' Therefore, I
have declared that which I didnot understand: things too
wonderful for me, which I didnot know.
'Hear now, and I will speak.
I will ask you and you instructme.' I have heard of you by the
hearing of the ear, but now myeye sees you.
Therefore I retract and I repentin dust and ashes." And that was
(02:55):
Job 42:2-6.
Thanks be to God for His Word.
Do keep those passages in mindas you listen to the interview,
and if you stick around to theend, you'll get to hear me read
some poetry.
Jon Guerra (03:07):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (03:17):
And I am here with Matthew Lee Anderson, who
has kindly joined me today totalk about his book, The End of
Our Exploring (03:24):
A Book about Questioning and the Confidence
of Faith.
Matthew was educated at the ToryHonors Institute at Biola
University and later at OxfordUniversity for his master's and
doctorate.
He has a number of endeavors tohis credit.
He is the founder of the websiteMere Orthodoxy and associate
(03:46):
fellow at the MacDonald Centerfor Theology, Ethics, and Public
Life at Oxford University.
He's a perpetual member of theTorrey Honors Institute and host
of the Mere Fidelity podcast.
And he's contributed articles toThe Gospel Coalition,
Christianity Today, TheWashington Post, and others.
He is currently the assistantresearch professor of ethics and
(04:09):
theology at the Institute forStudies of Religion at Baylor
University.
And his published works includeEarthen Vessels: Why Our Bodies
Matter to Our Faith and The Endof Our Exploring, which is the
book we're going to talk abouttoday.
And you can catch him on Twitter@mattleeanderson spelled the
usual way.
(04:29):
Now, after reading off thatimpressive resume, Matt, I
wanted to start out with kind ofa fun little conundrum to test
your education.
Matthew Lee Anderson (04:40):
Oh, no...
Amy Mantravadi (04:40):
No, I think you'll survive it.
So I may have mentioned to youthat I had wanted for a long
time to read this book and I hadnever gotten to it.
So earlier this year, when I wasgetting ready to give birth, I
noticed on the birth checklistthat I was given- it said,"Bring
something to read because youmight be at the hospital for
(05:03):
awhile before you give birth."And I was thinking, you know,
what do I have that I've beenmeaning to read for awhile?
And your book was the thing thatcame to mind.
So I put it in my bag with allthe other things that they tell
you you're supposed to bring tothe hospital.
Now I checked in on a Monday tobe induced.
(05:23):
I gave birth on a Wednesday.
I went home on a Friday.
So taking into accounteverything you know about these
things, how many chapters ofyour book do you think that I
completed during the five daysthat I was in the hospital?
Matthew Lee Anderson (05:43):
I genuinely hope it's zero.
Please tell me the answer iszero.
Amy Mantravadi (05:48):
Your fancy book learning paid off! You're right.
I did complete zero chapters ofyour book.
I think I made it through aboutthree pages in the really early
hours before anything washappening.
But yeah, after that, there wasdefinitely no reading that
happened the entire week, sothat's good.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:07):
I think that that's the craziest story
around my book that I haveheard.
That says a lot about you andjust how much of a masochist you
are that you're going in to givebirth- this is not an easy
thing.
And you're like,"Here's what Iwant to do.
I want to read The End of OurExploring while I'm ejecting a
(06:28):
human being from my body."That's the most insane life
choice that I think could bemade.
Amy Mantravadi (06:37):
Well, you may have a point there, but you
know, when I did get finallysome reading on the book done
was when my husband and I wentto change our cell phones over
to T-Mobile and that was a twohour ordeal.
And I did get some reading onthe book done then.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:53):
Good, good.
So you have read it?
Amy Mantravadi (06:54):
Yes, I have read it now.
Yes.
Matthew Lee Anderson (06:59):
I haven't, so I'm curious to hear what you
make of it.
Amy Mantravadi (07:04):
Alright, as long as we're on the same page,
that's good.
So assuming that you haveactually read the book, thinking
back to the period in your lifewhen you wrote this book, were
there any particular aspects ofyour research or experience that
motivated you to do so at thatpoint in time?
Matthew Lee Anderson (07:26):
It's a long time ago now actually.
Amy Mantravadi (07:30):
It is, and this year alone seems like it's taken
about 20 years, so it was areally long time ago.
Matthew Lee Anderson (07:36):
Yeah, several lifetimes ago.
So I don't know that there wasanything in particular that
motivated me to write it besidesfame, glory, landing on the New
York Times Bestseller List,making a dent for Jesus, etc.,
etc.
Um, sheer narcissism, really?
Why does anyone write a book?
(07:57):
That's I think probably toocynical.
I was really distraught by whatseemed to me to be a pretty lazy
way of thinking about theintellectual life among
Christians who were roughlybetween the ages of 22 and 35,
(08:18):
the so-called Millennials.
It seemed to me that they wereusing doubt in ways that were
pretty destructive to what Itook to be authentic Christian
faith, and that they often justdidn't understand what it means
to question well, so I reallywanted to just disentangle doubt
(08:43):
from questioning.
I think personally, in certainways the book was a kind of
therapeutic for me because Iwanted to be able to question
better, really wanted to reflecton my own intellectual inquiry
and to reform some habits that Ihad gotten into.
(09:04):
And the only way I know how todo that is by staring those
things straight in the face andeventually writing something
about it.
So making my writing historywhat you will in light of that.
But I really did- as anundergraduate spent a lot of
time thinking about the faith.
(09:25):
I'm thinking about how the faithconnected to the world and my
life, and I really wanted to beable to reflect on that process
of thinking and inquiry and helpeven myself do it better than I
think I had to that point.
So there is an existentialdimension to it.
(09:45):
I did feel like when I wrote it,it would be potentially the last
thing that I wrote, which wasvery weird to have that thought
at such a young age.
But that thought did cross mymind and in book form that's
proved true actually (10:04):
it's the last book that I have written.
So it felt weighty to me in away that I think- it doesn't
always happen with a book, butto me, this one's, it's an
important one for me.
Amy Mantravadi (10:21):
And you definitely in the book draw a
lot on your own experiences ofteaching and trying to guide
students through their ownprocess of questioning, and it
definitely seems like that wassomething that was motivating to
you.
And one point you make in thebook is that if Christians
aren't taught to question well,they'll almost certainly
(10:42):
question badly.
And I'd like to discuss a few ofthe ways that you say our
questions tend to come up short.
You go back to the temptation ofAdam and Eve in the garden of
Eden and you highlight how thequestions they asked or the
questions Eve asked, I shouldsay were not neutral.
They definitely had a slant andjust a quote from your book- you
(11:05):
say,"It would be convenient tothink that our questions are
immune from the fundamentalconflict of right and wrong-
that they're quarantined fromthe possibility of confession
and repentance.
But the first moment ofquestioning well is the
recognition that as a humanendeavor, our questioning is
fallen and broken, entangledwith sin, and in need of
reformation." So in light ofthat, how can we discern if our
(11:30):
questions are coming from agenuine spirit of faith seeking
understanding, or from a placeof rebellion against that?
Matthew Lee Anderson (11:38):
Yeah, it's a good question, and it's
something that I worry about anytime I talk with people about
questioning because it'spossible to make people seem too
self-conscious about whether ornot their question is a good
one.
And you see that a lot with-especially people who are young
(12:01):
or young in the faith.
They really will hesitate to asktheir questions because they
think that they need to ask awell-formed question in order to
do so.
And I really- that bothers me.
I think generally the bestquestion that we can ask is the
question that burns most withinus, the question that we can't
help ourselves from asking, andwhether or not that's a
(12:24):
well-formed question, whether ornot that's the right question
the right time, it might not be.
And hopefully over the course ofa lifetime, we'll get better at
discerning how to form ourquestions well, how to ask them
at the right time.
But I think that one way we candiscern whether or not we're
asking the right questions iswhether we can contain it,
right?
(12:44):
Can we prevent ourselves fromasking this question or does it
just seem like it weighs on usso heavily that we can't not ask
it?
I think about Paul's language,you know, the love of Christ
impels me to do this thing,right?
Like it wells up within me.
And I think a good question hasthat sort of spirit within it.
There's a sense of inquiry, asense of deep desire that it
(13:08):
expresses and that covers amultitude of sins.
And so when I talk withstudents, I really just want
them to ask their questions, notthe questions that they think
will make them look smart to theclass where they'd be posturing,
(13:28):
or look smart to the professor,not the questions that they
think are the right questions,but the questions that indicate
their own sense of confusion andthat are oriented towards
finding peace from thatconfusion.
So I really do want to setpeople free to question and as
(13:48):
they question, as they practicethat, to reflect on the practice
itself and to hopefully thenquestion better, but that only
comes through an experience offreedom where we just start
asking the questions that wehave, because we can't do
anything else.
There's no sort of adoptingsomeone else's question and
making it our own and saying,"Oh, now I've got the right
(14:10):
question." That just doesn'twork.
Amy Mantravadi (14:14):
You had a quote that seemed to be pretty
influential in your book fromRainer Maria Rilke.
Hopefully I pronounced thatcorrectly.
And she talks about, she says,"You must now live the
questions.
One day perhaps you willgradually and imperceptibly live
your way into the answer." Wedon't typically think of
(14:36):
questioning as a way of life, oras answers that- something we
live, but you write in responseto her quote that,"We will live
ourselves into the answers onlyif we live the questions while
orienting them around the goodand the true that are revealed
in the person of Jesus." So howshould we as Christians live
(15:00):
questions, as opposed to a non-believer?
What makes our questioningunique in light of the fact that
we're followers of Christ?
Matthew Lee Anderson (15:10):
Yeah, that's funny.
I'd forgotten that I had quotedRilke.
I almost regret doing thatbecause that's one of those
lines that hipster millennialswould put on their Facebook
pages because we all hadFacebook before Twitter and be
(15:30):
like,"Look, I'm a deep person!I'm living the questions!" So I
regret a little bit turning tothat.
It says something about me that-that's true about me at the
time, but...
Amy Mantravadi (15:44):
Is there anything else from the book
you'd like to recant at thismoment?
Matthew Lee Anderson (15:50):
"Have you ever quoted Rilke in your life?"
"Yes, I have.
I'm sorry! I'm sorry!" No, Ithink that there's something
within the faith that diminishesthe existential need to get the
(16:10):
right answers paradoxically,right?
There's something about knowingthat Christ is the answer to the
question that allows us to sitin ambiguity and sit in the
uncertainty of not knowing muchelse.
(16:31):
And that I think is a wonderfultype of disposition to have
towards the world.
It's in fact a dispositiontoward the world that animates a
sense of wonder towards it.
Which is to say, because we havethe answer that is Christ, we're
free to look at all of the restof creation and to receive it as
(16:54):
a gift and to marvel at it, andto not feel like through our
questioning, we have to kind ofdominate it, or we've got to
search out every nook and crannyof it in order to be whole.
I do think there's somethingvery diseased about how moderns
think about knowledge and thesearch for knowledge.
(17:16):
I try to avoid sort oftypecasting modernity and the
like, but I do think that thereis something to that.
It's not incidental forinstance, that the last Mars
expedition, the Mars rover wasnamed Curiosity.
That this impulse towardscuriosity is an impulse: that's
(17:38):
a kind of frenetic search forknowing everything.
And within the tradition,Christian tradition, that's a
sin, right?
That sense of coming to knowwhat's not known is indicative
of a malformed intellectualdesire.
And I think knowing Christ freesus from those malformed
(18:02):
intellectual desires.
It frees us to not know, butalso not in the sort of cheap
like- well, you know,"It's allgray areas.
We don't really know any answershere, right?" The not knowing is
a kind of wonder and joy anddelight because there are
answers there.
You just don't know what theyare yet.
And in receiving creation as agift, you can delight in it in
(18:27):
such a way that you can lingerover it and you don't have to
hurry to answers, but you'regoing to get there eventually.
And I think that that sense ofrestful inquiring is- it's
paradoxical.
It's very hard to describe howit is uniquely Christian.
I don't think that we see itvery much.
(18:48):
I think a writer like Augustinein Confessions displays,
especially as the book goesalong.
But I think that that restfulsense of inquiry or searching
is, to me, what's possiblewithin the Christian life.
Amy Mantravadi (19:06):
It makes me think very much about the times
when I've just on my own beenstudying about the Trinity, and
that's a subject that we'renever going to be able to
totally understand.
So there have been theologianswho have gotten themselves in
trouble almost by trying todelve too much into things that
(19:27):
scripture is silent about, butthere is always that frustration
of- especially when we're tryingto know about God, that that's
something that feels soessential to everything we are.
And yet we have to be contentwith a certain degree of
mystery.
So that's where faith comes in,I guess, that you have to be
(19:47):
content with what you've beengiven.
So I think you have some goodthoughts about that.
Yeah, definitely.
Matthew Lee Anderson (19:55):
And I mean, that sense of speculation
about the Trinity, right?
Like as you say, it gets peopleinto trouble.
And by contrast, the Trinity,the mysteries of the Christian
faith are meant to becontemplated.
And through being contemplated,they're meant to shape us as
lovers, as people who desirethese things.
(20:15):
And that sense of contemplationcan't be a kind of
subordination, right?
We can't dominate the thing thatwe're contemplating.
The whole point of contemplatingit is that it's distinct from
us, that it's endless, that evenin knowing it we can't, in fact,
overwhelm it or bring it intoourselves in its fullness, that
(20:37):
there will always be somedimension of it that remains
unknown to us.
And that sense of lovingcontemplation is to me the art
of questioning.
Amy Mantravadi (20:49):
When we think about questioning and scripture,
at least for me, one of thethings that first comes to my
mind is the Book of Job, whichis a long contemplation on the
mysteries of life.
And you talk about it as a goodexample of how God asks
questions of us and not just theother way around.
And a quote from your book (21:09):
You say that,"Our assurance as
Christians is not rooted in ourown knowledge and love of God,
but in God's knowledge and loveof us." And that made me think
very much of what Paul says in 1Corinthians 13, where he says,
"For now we see in a mirrordimly, but then face-to-face.
Now I know in part, but then Iwill know fully just as I also
(21:32):
have been fully known." So canyou talk a little more about how
that shift in focus to faith andknowledge that comes to us from
God, rather than what we gainthrough our own pursuits?
Matthew Lee Anderson (21:46):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned the 1
Corinthians passage.
That"even as we are fully known"has been for me the secret pivot
point of all of Paul's theology.
(22:06):
It shows up at a couple pointsin his thought.
It happens in Galatians as well,I think, where he says,"For
those of us who know God," andhe catches himself and says,"Or
rather are known by him." Thefact that we're known by God
means that we're real.
(22:29):
So there's a weird medievaldoctrine that basically says
that things have being, becauseGod knows them rather than the
other way around, like God can'tknow false things.
And I think that being known byGod is- it means that we have a
reality and a substance and anexistence that is inviolable,
(22:52):
right?
That's not going to go away.
So from my standpoint, thefreedom to question well just
hinges upon that (23:01):
that it doesn't matter which direction I
turn in my intellectual life,I'm hemmed in by a God who's
gone there before me and who iswalking with me, who is
accompanying me, guiding me,directing me in that pursuit.
(23:22):
I think it's such a remarkableimage.
I've totally forgotten what yourquestion is.
I was just so enraptured.
Sorry.
Amy Mantravadi (23:31):
No, that's okay.
I do think that if we startgoing on out about medieval
theories of being, we're goingto lose any listeners that we
had.
Matthew Lee Anderson (23:40):
I apologize.
I apologize.
Amy Mantravadi (23:43):
I know from personal experience that a lot
was written that could probablyput a lot of people to sleep.
The question- you partiallyanswered it, I think- I asked if
you could talk about the shiftin focus from faith and
knowledge that comes to us fromGod, rather than the other way
around.
And I think that you addressedthat.
Matthew Lee Anderson (24:03):
Yeah, and I mean, I'm all about reducing
the anxiety of the Christianlife: diminishing the sense of
possessiveness, diminishing thesense of that.
Our security depends upon usgetting the right answers.
And I've got a correspondentright now: a young fellow who's
(24:25):
in college who just cannotfathom getting the wrong answer
about an issue even ofsignificant importance.
He just can't deal with it.
And there's such an underlyingconcern that he has, that his
(24:45):
salvation is going to beimperiled.
If he gets the wrong answerabout, say,"I don't know what
Jesus thinks about marriage."And I think that you have to be
able to balance an affirmationof the importance of these
issues without descending intothis notion that we're somehow
saved on the basis of how rightour answers are about them.
(25:08):
And that's the line that I'mtrying to walk.
I really want people to careabout what the right answers
are, because I think it willmatter for how a person's life
goes at the end of the day.
We're saved by a being- a person- and the doctrines that we
affirm around that are shorthands for that person's
(25:29):
character, and allow us todescribe that person in ways
that matter for communication toothers.
But if we don't describe thatperson fully accurately, or we
get some of the doctrines wrong,we're still saved by the person.
And so I think that we can learnand grow.
I mean, John's line that theHoly spirit"will lead us into
(25:52):
all truth" just means that theChurch and us are in a position
at one point in our lives whenwe're not in all truth.
And that's a time that we willbe in at some point, which I
hope diminishes the sense ofanxiety that people might have.
We don't have to have it allright.
Right now, the beginning ofwisdom is seek wisdom.
Amy Mantravadi (26:16):
Yeah, I think that's a good word.
I, like so many people, dealwith anxieties in my spiritual
life.
So I think it is always good tokeep our focus where it needs to
be.
Another thing in your book ishow churches tend to be very
good at discipling us in joy,but not very good at discipling
(26:38):
us in lament.
You said,"They've not taught usabout mourning, and in moments
when sin and brokenness comeupon us, we don't know how to
respond." So this is a pointI've heard raised by a lot of
people recently (26:52):
that our Christian culture and
contemporary America doesn'thave any place for lament,
despite the fact that scripturetalks so much about- gives so
much space to lamenting.
What are some practical ways youthink that we could introduce
this into our churches andreorient our thinking a little
(27:13):
closer to a historic Christianunderstanding of suffering, as
opposed to one that I think hasbeen very heavily influenced by
pursuing the American dream andthe culture that we live in now.
Matthew Lee Anderson (27:26):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it's interesting to me.
I do have the vanity to go lookand see what people are
highlighting on Kindle andunequivocally that section on
lament is the most highlightedof the whole book on Kindle.
(27:51):
The people who read it on Kindleresonated with that section more
than anything else, and I foundthat very interesting to me.
It indicated a kind of desirefor some type of religious
experience that we're beingdenied.
(28:12):
And I don't know how we cancompensate for that besides
reading the Psalms regularly asa part of our corporate worship
and as a part of our privateworship.
I mean, God allows such spacefor lament in scripture, that he
has a whole book dedicated to itin Lamentations, right?
(28:34):
Jeremiah is just not going tohold back.
But the Psalms are the center ofsort of moral formation for the
Christian life.
They're the place where we cando the most therapy within our
souls.
And I think praying the Psalmsregularly as a people allows us
(28:58):
to have language for lament inour corporate worship that
wouldn't come up otherwise.
It would only come up on specialoccasions and that prepares us
for moments when we need it, sothat when we experience trauma,
when we experience sorrow, wehave the language of the Psalms
(29:18):
ready to go as a part of ourtheological vocabulary.
And I just think that we have tomake that the centerpiece of our
spiritual lives.
And I don't, I don't know whatelse to do.
Amy Mantravadi (29:35):
No, and I mean, I really put you on the spot and
it's hard to come up with all ofa sudden five different things.
I think you've hit on a big one,which is that, depending on what
liturgical tradition you're in-if you go to an Anglican church
using the Book of Common Prayer,then you're on a regular cycle
through the Psalms every 60 daysor however many days, and you're
(29:58):
constantly getting exposed tothat.
And there are other traditionsas well that either will sing
only from the Psalms or reallyincorporate a lot of the Psalms
in their singing, but otherChristian traditions- they might
not be incorporated as much.
So I think if you are teachingthrough the whole counsel of
scripture in some manner, thenyou do unavoidably come to those
(30:24):
passages and have to deal withthem.
Whereas if you're not doingthat, then those are the kinds
of passages that might getavoided.
They just don't make people feelvery good when they leave church
in the morning always.
But I think they would for- thefact is that people are always
coming to church with thingsthey're lamenting about in their
hearts, and if they feel likeit's never being addressed,
(30:46):
they're never getting anyresources for how to deal with
that, then maybe that is whatthey need to be leaving and
feeling a lot better.
Matthew Lee Anderson (30:55):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I mean, one of the other thingsI would say is in my first book
on the body, I defended thepractice of having church
graveyards where we would burythe dead of the Christian
community at the place where wewould worship.
(31:15):
I think that also allows for aform of lament because it keeps
markers of our mortality allaround us.
It doesn't allow us to forgetthe fact that we are headed
towards death, which is not afact we can forget for very
long.
But I think having a kind of-even a spatial environment that
(31:41):
allows for lament- and this isone thing that chapels, I think,
in a church help with (31:45):
nooks and crannies, where people can hang
out and cry, versus huge openspaces where that's all we have,
right?
Even if there were a sort oflamenting chapel in a church
where it was known that that wasthe place where you could go to
(32:05):
deal with your grief and maybeeven be prayed for it.
I think there are properlyevangelical ways of doing this,
but I I'd like to see somecreativity among churches on it.
Amy Mantravadi (32:19):
Well, women have that
and that's why we go in groups.
Matthew Lee Anderson (32:28):
I have no comment.
Amy Mantravadi (32:29):
No, that's fine.
We would welcome another room ifthat were possible.
One of the first things thatChristians tend to do when they
experience doubts about someaspect of their faith is to
disconnect themselves in variousways from the body of Christ.
And you talk about this and howour questioning has a tendency
(32:51):
to turn our focus inward ratherthan outward to helping others,
but part of that also involveshaving Christian communities
that are open to dealing withquestions together.
So beyond what we've discussedso far, are there any other ways
that you could think of forchurches and Christian
communities to create anatmosphere that's supportive of
(33:15):
faithful questioning.
I mean, there are people who askquestions just to provoke or to
tear down, but we're thinking ofpeople who have genuine
questions about their faith andwant to pursue it in a God-like
way.
Matthew Lee Anderson (33:27):
Yeah, so that makes me think of one more
mark for people to think on asthey ask whether they're
questioning well.
If it's expanding our capacityto do good work, then we're
questioning well, right?
If I'm more disposed to go serveat my neighborhood soup kitchen
(33:48):
in light of my intellectualinquiries, then I think you can
have a high degree of confidencethat I'm asking the right sort
of questions.
And I think that that mattersfor a community because the
types of communities wherepeople feel alienated because of
their questions are to mecommunities that have not
(34:08):
integrated the cognitive side ofthe faith with the works of
service that we're called to asChristians.
It's very hard to leave acommunity if they're really
immersed in serving theirneighbor, regardless of how much
they might struggle to give youan answer for your question.
(34:31):
And in my experience, thecommunities that are most
immersed in serving theirneighbor are most alive to the
suffering and the grief and thepain and the difficult realities
of the world, which are thecentral source of most people's
doubts, right?
So people who are puttingthemselves in contexts where
they would be prone to doubt allthe time- I think we'll have a
(34:53):
kind of generosity towards thosewho do doubt, cause they'll get
it right.
I think that I in certainrespects get all the
proclivities or inclinations toleave the faith.
It's at points been attractiveto me, and the points when it's
been most attractive to me havebeen when the Christian
(35:16):
community has failed in someparticular way.
They failed to uphold theintegrity of their convictions
and failed to loveappropriately, and that inclines
me to leave a community.
And so I think in terms ofcreating community that's
(35:37):
hospitable to those who arequestioning, that's the first
thing.
Now, I think that the secondthing has got to be leaders who
are themselves wondering aboutthe world and their faith- who
are leading the community in theprocess of delighting, in
(35:58):
learning new things about whatit means to be a Christian and
what we're called to and doing.
So not in a grand standing way,but because it's an organic part
of their Christian faith,pastors should retreat into
their studies and read just forthe fun of it.
(36:19):
And if that means readingnovels, rather than reading
theology, that's fine.
As long as those novels arenovels by Anthony Trollope and
they're not watching Netflix.
You knew it was going to come upat some point, right?
But I do think that pastors needto be learners first and they
(36:43):
will set the tone and thetrajectory for their community,
and if they are themselveslearning appropriately, they'll
have lots of room for those whoare struggling in the faith to
ask their questions in ways thatare not threatening to the
structure of the community.
The only way bad questioning canbe reformed is in the presence
(37:03):
of those who are questioningwell, so I think that those are
two central dimensions.
I'm not sure about otherpractices and I'd be interested
in hearing from listeners andfrom you what people should do
because to me it's a hardproblem.
Amy Mantravadi (37:19):
Yeah, I think that the things you've already
mentioned are good places tostart, and I think that when it
comes to asking questions thatare really personal, as these
questions often are, we have tohave strong personal
relationships with people.
I've had people ask me in thepast- because I've sometimes
(37:42):
talked about my own struggleswith depression and anxiety-
"What should I do to try to helpsomeone if they're thinking
about wanting to commit suicideso that they'll talk to me and
tell someone?" And I said,"Well,if you don't already have a
relationship with them wherethey feel like they trust you,
they're not going to come to youwith this deepest, darkest thing
that they're dealing with." So Ithink that would also be true
for our questioning (38:05):
that we have to focus on building strong
relationships within churchbodies, and a lot of ink has
been spilled on that topicalready.
So I don't think I'm going toadd anything more to it, but I'd
say in general, that would be agood thing.
And when it comes to reading inyour free time, make sure to
also check out the novels of Amy Mantravadi, w hich are
(38:27):
recommended for you when you'regoing to study, in addition to
the novels of Trollope.
So I think that probably aboutsums up our discussion for
tonight.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
It's been great.
Matthew Lee Anderson (38:45):
Thanks for having me on, Amy.
I've really enjoyed it.
Jon Guerra (38:49):
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi (39:15):
It was great to have Matt on the podcast today.
However, it's time I let you inon two little secrets.
The first is that I am not yetperfected in knowledge and have
many questions yet to ask.
The second is that I have neverread Rilke.
That possibly explains how Imanaged to not only mispronounce
his name, but also referred tohim as a she.
(39:37):
A lesser podcast host would tryto find some creative way to
edit out that mistake, and Iadmit the thought crossed my
mind, but I have decided it isbetter to let you know that your
host is in fact a fallible humanbeing.
The one solace I take in all ofthis is that by my guest's own
definition, my lack of knowledgeabout Rilke has perhaps ensured
(39:59):
that I am not a hipstermillennial.
Matt's book, The End of OurExploring, is available from
Moody Publishers.
That title happens to come froma famous poem by T.S.
Eliot, the last of his FourQuartets, with which I happily
do have some familiarity.
The poem itself is called"LittleGidding" and happens to be one
of my favorites.
(40:19):
Allow me to just read the lastsection to you, both to
compliment today's discussionand to convince you that I have
some minor degree ofappreciation for literature.
"What we call the beginning isoften the end and to make and
end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from.
And every phrase and everysentence that is right(where
(40:41):
every word is at home, takingits place to support the others,
the word neither diffident norostentatious, an easy commerce
of the old and the new, thecommon word exact without
vulgarity, the formal wordprecise but not pedantic, the
complete consort dancingtogether) Every phrase and every
(41:02):
sentence is an end and abeginning, every poem an
epitaph.
And any action is a step to theblock, to the fire, down the
sea's throat or to an illegiblestone: and that is where we
start.
We die with the dying (41:15):
See, they depart, and we go with them.
We are born with the dead (41:20):
See, they return, and bring us with
them.
The moment of the rose and themoment of the yew-tree are of
equal duration.
A people without history is notredeemed from time, for history
is a pattern of timelessmoments.
So, while the light fails on awinter's afternoon, in a
secluded chapel, history is nowand England.
(41:44):
With the drawing of this Loveand the voice of this
Calling...We shall not ceasefrom exploration, and the end of
all our exploring will be toarrive where we started and know
the place for the first time.
Through the unknown,unremembered gate when the last
of earth left to discover isthat which was the beginning; at
(42:04):
the source of the longest river,the voice of the hidden
waterfall, and the children inthe apple-tree.
Not known, because not lookedfor, but heard, half-heard in
the stillness between two wavesof the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always--Acondition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less thaneverything) And all shall be
(42:27):
well and all manner of thingshall be well when the tongues
of flames are in-folded into thecrown, not of fire and the fire
and the rose are one." The suns,another episode of the
(A)Millennial podcast.
Thanks so much for joining me.
The music you've been hearing isthe song citizens by John Guerra
off his album Keeper of Days.
(42:49):
Now I'll send you off with abenediction from scripture in
Numbers 6:24-26.
"The Lord bless you and keepyou.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
The Lord lift up his countenanceon you and give you peace."
Amen.
Have a great week!
Jon Guerra (43:10):
(MUSIC PLAYING) Is there a way to love always?
Living and ending in hallways.
Don't know my foes from myfriends and don't know my
friends anymore.
Power has several prizes.
Handcuffs can come in all sizes.
Love has a million disguises,but winning is simply not one.
(43:31):
(MUSIC STOPS)
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