May 10, 2021 • 29 mins
We are in the second part of our series called "Pick Your Poison".
Some behaviours in a marriage have a destination towards divorce.
Take a listen as we talk about the poison but also give the antidote.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bryan (00:12):
Welcome to season two, episode 14, the second part of
our pick your poison seriestoday, we are talking about
defensiveness and stonewalling.
Natalie (00:56):
Welcome to another episode of amplified marriage.
I'm Natalie and I'm Brian,wherever you are, whatever
you're doing, you hear us saythis every single podcast,
gravity, grab a snack and acoffee, get comfy and cozy.
We are so glad that you'vejoined us for our chat.
Bryan (01:13):
We are really excited to have you with us.
And if this is your first time,Or you have been with us for a
long time.
We just started last episode,our pick your poison series.
There's six of them that we'regoing to be going through.
And all of them have the markersof something that will lead to
divorce is this is the primarything that's in your
relationship or the primary waythat you function.
(01:35):
And so thank you for joining ustoday.
It's a bit of a heavy thing, butwe do have a couple things.
We're talking aboutdefensiveness and stonewalling
and each one of those things, wehave a solution on how to deal
with them.
So it's not like here's all theheavy and then walk away.
And that's it.
We want to give you a way out ofthese things in a way to proceed
forward in your relationship.
And you know, just as a note ofencouragement on, on the side,
(01:58):
we know that COVID has beentough.
We know that it's been aninteresting year.
The relationships have beenchallenged.
We have been coaching manycouples or those last year, just
on, on communication, on thingsthat they didn't expect they
ever had to run into because ofCOVID once both being close,
proximity, being close proximityor kids, or being at home or he
losing there's, there's a lot ofstress.
(02:19):
And so just know that we'rehere.
We are so glad that you listen.
We want to be on your side andif you.
Have anything you need us topray for, or just have any
advice or a question that youneed, something specific that's
even to you, we don't have toread it on the podcast.
We'd love to just answer you andbe encouraging in any way that
we possibly can, but just knowthat there we've, we're feeling
(02:42):
the pressure too, and we're hereto help.
And that's what our purpose is.
Natalie (02:46):
And if, if tonight's topics kind of interest you,
then go back and listen to lastthe last podcast where we talked
about.
Criticism and contempt.
So the sort of piggyback onthat.
Bryan (02:59):
Absolutely.
So we're starting with our verynext poison.
Our next poison isdefensiveness.
And typically this oftentimes isI would say almost all the time,
a response yeah.
To being
Natalie (03:14):
criticized, being criticized.
And it's so true.
Like I, we were planning.
To talk about this tonight, Iwas like, Hm.
I feel like I'm the, I was thequeen of defensiveness because
again, we're trying to get ourspouses to respond to us in what
we feel is a healthy way.
(03:34):
And sometimes we resort to thesekinds of tactics in order to get
that response.
And it just doesn't work that
Bryan (03:41):
way.
Right.
And we, we sometimes use it evenjust to like, we're going to be
critical and then they're goingto be defensive just to make
them get away or back off or notbe a part
Natalie (03:52):
of, and then come stonewalling when they're
defensive.
Right?
Like we'll, we'll kind offormulate the cycle as we go
through this, but bear with us.
We
Bryan (04:00):
want, yeah, we want to paint the picture of the
defensive Ines before we get toofar.
Exactly.
Natalie (04:04):
And also that if you find yourself being defensive or
that being kind of your go-toresponse, there is hope like
it's not, it's not the end foryou.
I think it's just bringing thisto your knowledge.
Giving you some tools and somepractical ways to combat that so
that you then can develophealthier patterns and
communicate.
Yeah.
Bryan (04:24):
Do you want scripture, like kind of just came to mind
now for all of these things thatwe've talked about being
critical contempt, defensivenessstonewalling, and the last two
that we're going to get into,all of it is the scripture that
says a soft answer, turns awaywrath instead of responding
sometimes how we're feeling.
If we just have a soft answer,gentle.
Kind word instead of theresponse and oftentimes a soft
(04:47):
answer.
Isn't our go-to because that'snot a normal, that's the
exception.
So respond
Natalie (04:51):
rather than react.
Bryan (04:52):
Right.
And so part of thedefensiveness, the way we want
to lay this down is like, I'mgoing to say it to that.
Like, here's the question?
Did you, did you let Nathan andKatrina know that we're not
going to be coming to theirhouse as we
Natalie (05:03):
promised?
So I think we should reversethis because this would be more
how it would, how I would be theone to ask you the question.
Yes.
So, and just wait, like theresponse that I'm going to give
is going to be, you know, snarkytoo.
So just hold on.
Hey, I, so I'm approaching youalready in a ticked off mood.
You've
Bryan (05:23):
already been critical.
You already have contempt for mebecause you think I didn't do
something
Natalie (05:27):
now in that I think you're an idiot mode.
I'm going to ask you a questionin that, in that frame of mind.
Absolutely.
So, Hey.
Did you call Nathan and Katrina,let them know that we're not
coming tonight.
As you promised you would dothis morning.
Bryan (05:42):
Wow.
Natalie (05:44):
That's what I mean.
Right.
And, and I can say it like thisbecause I have,
Bryan (05:49):
and my response would be, I just been so busy.
Why didn't you do it?
You knew how busy my day was.
Why didn't you
Natalie (05:55):
call them?
That's right.
And then you would also saysomething like, was your phone
broken?
Could you not have picked thephone up?
And given them a call or a text.
I don't understand why your, solike not wanting to do that once
you just
Bryan (06:11):
communicate.
Why is it, so
Natalie (06:12):
why is it so hard for you to
Bryan (06:13):
communicate?
Well, sometimes I, I don't, Ilike straight up when I've said
this to you, I don't understand.
Oh, I wonder what's happened.
Like, we'll use anythingKatrina, like, Oh, I think we're
supposed to go over theretonight.
What do they want us to bring?
I'm like, you could just texther
Natalie (06:25):
that's right.
And then I'm like, you couldphone,
Bryan (06:28):
like, and I'll be like, okay.
So I will.
Natalie (06:30):
Right.
So the partner, so Brian is notgoing to respond very kindly.
When my question is laced withtone, it's laced with a
superiority, let's be honestwhere I think I'm better than
you because.
You had a job to do you failedto do it, and I'm going to, I'm
going to like nail it to thewall that I know that you are a
(06:52):
failure in communicating in thisway.
And
Bryan (06:55):
in your defense, I gave you lots of reason to be
critical and have contempt anddo this.
Okay.
Natalie (07:02):
But that still doesn't make it right for me, right?
No, no, no.
And I certainly am no piece ofcake either.
There's a response to thedefensiveness, but then there's
the reverse blame that justhappened here in our example, to
make it somehow the otherperson's fault.
(07:23):
Right.
So I was like, why couldn't youdo that?
And then Brian's response to mewas I was really busy today.
Like, why couldn't you like, isyour phone broken?
Is this that the other, like,you're more than capable of
dialing a number or this, that,and the other you fill in the
blanks.
Right?
Bryan (07:37):
However that applies to you.
Natalie (07:39):
Exactly.
And then a simple non-defensiveresponse could express ownership
of that responsibility.
We are advocates for you, takeresponsibility for what comes
out of your mouth for youractions, your part in a
disagreement or whatever.
So being
Bryan (07:57):
able to, and, and let's even go a step further where
you're responsible for what youthink, because even in that,
that, that thought.
That thought moment you're youcan go to war and your thoughts
before you.
And so you have to take thosecaptives just as much as you do
with your responsibility, withyour mouth, with what you come
out, you have to control, what'skind of happening.
Natalie (08:19):
That's right.
And then responding.
So we're not reacting orresponding in a way that is
non-defensive.
That right there is going to be.
What's going to help youunderstand your partner's
perception.
And if
Bryan (08:31):
you're in a relationship and you know that you're
defensive and you know thatyou're working out of a critical
place, defensiveness onlyamplify, so only escalates the
already critical issues that aregoing on in your, and in the
relationship.
And defensiveness never, ever,never has been.
Man.
I w I, I never said to that.
(08:51):
Do you know what.
I wish you were more defensive.
I think it's helping ourrelationship.
And I can't believe that we'renot more defensive more often
because I think this is going tofix our relationship.
No one ever says that.
Natalie (09:01):
Right.
Maybe we should do a podcastwhere we are doing completely
what we shouldn't do and see ifanyone notices.
Bryan (09:08):
I feel like that happens on this part.
Natalie (09:11):
Right?
Let's talk the non-defenseresponse.
What could it be?
The
Bryan (09:16):
thing about defensiveness too is it's also.
Like, I think you mentioned itor alluded to it.
It's also the way that you blameyour partner for other things.
It's just like, it's, it's partof the blame game.
But it's, it really is.
You're just, you're so defensivebecause they didn't do something
and you're blaming them.
So do you take anyresponsibility?
That's
Natalie (09:35):
right, because when we have talked about this in
several podcasts, no one likesto be wrong.
No one likes to say, Hey, youknow what?
I kind of, I dropped the ball,but you don't realize how much.
For read them comes out of youjust taking that stance of like,
you know what I messed up.
Yeah.
There's, there's so muchdiffusion of communication bombs
(09:56):
that would happen if people justtook ownership of their part,
you know what you're right.
I shouldn't have responded.
Like I really asked you reallysnarky.
Let me start over.
Bryan (10:07):
Yeah.
And that's the actual, theactual antidote to
defensiveness.
Is to take responsibility foryour actions.
That's
Natalie (10:16):
right.
And a simple saying, Hey, I'msorry.
Like I know that I said I wouldphone them and I, my day got
away from me.
And I should have just looked atmy schedule and said, Hey, I've
got like appointment afterappointment, honey.
You're going to
Bryan (10:26):
have to phone.
Yeah.
And it's amazing what a softanswer we'll do and a soft out
there.
It doesn't mean that you whisperand you're like, you know what?
No, no, no.
It's a soft answer.
As you know what I understand.
I take responsibility for this.
I am sorry that I didn't do whatI asked.
Even, even if you miss the Mark.
The way that you, you, youactually fix things is by taking
(10:47):
responsibility, accepting thefeedback and the healthy
criticism and moving forwardwith that and be like, all
right, you're right.
I didn't do this.
I'm sorry.
That's my fault.
Natalie (10:58):
Exactly.
And expecting a differentresult.
I mean, we're, we're, we're likethings are stressed right now.
People are stressed.
The world is stressed.
There's a tension, there's ahuge tension.
You know, the suicide rates areup and depression and mental
illnesses are on the rise.
There's a tension there.
And if your go-to response isgoing to be defensiveness, it's
(11:21):
not going to have the desiredeffect that you're hoping for.
No,
Bryan (11:24):
because oftentimes when you are in the, that part or
that.
Unhealthy style or unhealthymoment of your relationship.
Defensiveness is alreadyreaction to the criticism and
the contempt that you're alreadyfeeling and to take
responsibility is a really,really big step.
And it, and here's the truth forall of you amplified marriage,
(11:45):
family.
It takes courage in any one ofthese things.
It takes courage to take thefirst step and be like, all
right.
I'm going to take responsibilityfor my
Natalie (11:55):
actions.
That's right.
That's the first step in allhealthy conflict matters.
And anything's,
Bryan (12:00):
if we had an antidote for any of the ones that we've
already gone to, it would havebeen just take responsibility
for your actions.
If you can do that, man, yourmarriage and your relationships
can change.
Because of your reaction to it,not your response to it, not
your reaction to that.
Yeah.
Right.
And
Natalie (12:17):
we become defensive when we're protecting ourselves.
Right.
It's a wall that we put uparound ourselves.
It's just not a healthy wall.
Right.
And
Bryan (12:24):
I like even thinking back to our early relationship or up
to what does a few months ago,we we've, we still sometimes,
and this is the thing, like Ihave a friend of mine named
Michael.
He never makes, he doesn't wantto have heavy conversations or
make decisions after eighto'clock.
Right, because, yeah, becausehe's like, I'm tired by that
point.
And I just don't want to talkabout these things.
(12:45):
And so he said, if we have tohave a heavy marriage
conversation, he's like, no, Ican't do this right now.
I got to do it tomorrow morningwhen I'm fresh and rested,
because he says in those momentswhen you're tired or you're
already frustrated when you'retired, Your inhibitions are down
and your, your, your crapfilter, isn't going to filter
any of the things that, youknow, you shouldn't say it's
(13:06):
just going to come out and thendamage actually can be done by
the words.
There's a reason, the words, orthe Bible talks so strongly
about watch your tongue,captivate, your captivate, those
things you, you can, you can bein control of that
Natalie (13:17):
and not everything.
And not every question thatcomes at you is an attack.
Right.
And I think, yeah.
In an unhealthy state of mind,if you've, if you're the victim
of trauma or abuse, those arethe self protection.
What's the word tactics that yourevert to, right.
And there is help there'scounseling and there's help
available.
The Gottman Institute kind oflaid out that whole scenario
(13:39):
that we had done with thephoning late and whatever.
And so that the defensive.
Response to that wholeconversation.
They posted looks like this.
It's not my fault that we'regoing to be late.
It's your fault since you alwaysget dressed at the last second.
Bryan (13:58):
So for us, that one's kind of funny because if Natalie
has to be anywhere, say she hasto be at drama at four o'clock
or five o'clock in the evening.
Yeah, we have legitimately leftthe house at 25 after.
And we are literally are fourminutes from the location in
which we were going to stopthat's right.
And even, even if we have to hitevery light on the way over and
(14:19):
we stopped to get coffee, we'restill 15 minutes early.
Cause our family is a very firmpleaser believers.
If you're five minutes early,you're 10 minutes late.
And so this one is kind of funnybecause we are, I'm always like
we don't have to leave yet.
It's four o'clock.
You don't have to be there untilfive.
It's just a big joke in ourhouse.
Natalie (14:35):
That's right.
So I would be the one to say,it's not my fault that we're
going to be late.
It's your fault seeing that youalways like put your shoes on
the last second or you can'tnever find your keys or you were
looking for your wallet or we'relooking for this, or now you're
going to the bathroom.
You fill in the blanks for whatit's going to be.
This would be something I wouldsay to you this week.
That's right.
And the antidote for that iswhat Brian.
Bryan (14:57):
Antidote is taking responsibility.
Natalie (14:59):
No, no, no, no.
I don't like being late.
Bryan (15:01):
Oh, you mean that antidote?
Actually, not just the statementended up.
I got you.
I got you.
I thought that we weren't thereyet.
I don't like being late, butyou're right.
I can't say that one.
Like I physically might be illif I have to say that I don't
like being late, but you'reright.
We don't want to have to leaveso early.
I can
Natalie (15:19):
be a little more flexed.
That's right.
And even so to put it, no,because that's not how you talk.
To put it in perspective ofhuman eye.
It'd be like, okay, wellknowing.
So I know that you don't likebeing late.
And so, because I know that Iwill make sure that I have my
keys and my wallet all kind ofin one spot or ready to go for
(15:40):
four 30 when you want to
Bryan (15:41):
leave.
Is it wrong to blame the kids totouch my stuff?
Natalie (15:45):
Yes, that's wrong.
We just talked about blamingGod, take responsibility for
your own keys and wallet and.
Shoes and jacket.
Bryan (15:53):
I didn't realize that it encompassed the kids too.
I can't believe the kids either.
Darn it.
Okay.
Moving on.
Natalie (15:58):
That's right.
And so you just have to assertunderstand, so you come at it
from a place of, Hey, Iunderstand, even though I think
it's ridiculous, like you and I,you think it's ridiculous that I
leave at four 30 and in mythoughts, I don't.
Necessarily care that you thinkis ridiculous.
I want to leave at four 30.
Great.
(16:19):
Yeah, that's
Bryan (16:19):
fair.
The very next poison isstonewalling.
Natalie (16:23):
This one is really, I have done this.
Bryan (16:26):
Can you explain to us what stonewalling is?
Natalie (16:28):
So as defensiveness follows criticism, stonewalling
follows contempt.
And so our next, you know, thenext podcast is just going to
piggyback on all of us and kindof bring it Like more
understanding to it, right?
Stonewalling is when you're in aconflict or you're attempting to
like manage the conflict.
(16:52):
And for whatever reason, thelistener withdraws from the
conversation, they shut down,they stop responding, right?
They ignore you.
They grab their phones, they'rescrolling through whatever
they're scrolling through.
They're not paying attention toanything you say.
So rather than confronting theissue with your spouse, people
(17:15):
tune out, they act busy, theydistract themselves.
They just might, they just mightwalk away and leave the
conversation.
Bryan (17:23):
We know someone who gets into this type of conflict,
Natalie (17:27):
right?
Yeah.
It's really the effects thatthis has on the conversation can
be really damaging if it's not.
Dealt with and dealt with in agood way, because it's
overwhelming.
Bryan (17:40):
That's why you're stonewalling.
Natalie (17:42):
Like these don't just happen overnight.
And that's the thing.
These are like over a period oftime.
And then all of a sudden in yourfeelings by the time it gets to
this place becomes thatunderstandable.
This is my out, and this is mygo-to out.
And then it becomes a bad habit.
Right.
Bryan (18:02):
Because in the moment in some conversations in some
hostile environment, it'sactually easier for you to just
disengage and take a breakbecause of everything that's
going on.
Again,
Natalie (18:15):
it's a coping mechanism.
Bryan (18:16):
Yeah.
Oftentimes because the firstthree poisons are already active
and they've compiled and they'realready just like, they're going
through running through your,the lifeblood of your
relationship.
And stonewalling is justcrushing it.
You're just, and now, now thisisn't making anything worse
because now you can't even bedefensive or the other person,
can you be defensive?
You can't face it.
(18:36):
Like when you've done this tome, it does not help me.
I get enraged oftentimes,because I'm the one that.
I am the one in therelationship.
That's like, no, we need to dealwith this now.
I don't like waiting.
We've talked about that.
Yep.
I know, cause you'll just belike, look, I'm very, very mad
right now.
And, and even, even as part ofthe solution to, to stonewalling
(18:57):
is look, you'll say to me, I'mmad.
I'm very mad, so mad.
I don't even want to talk aboutthis.
I need to take a break.
Can we come back to this half anhour from now?
Can we come back to an hour?
I'll tell you, you said to me,I'll tell you in that time in 60
minutes or an hour, if that'slong enough, if not, you're
going to give me some more timeand like, okay.
Yeah.
Natalie (19:14):
And it's so important.
Actually, the Gottman Institutesays that when we Stonewall, we
may not even be in aphysiological state where we can
discuss things rationally.
So just that alone of beingaware.
That there's a physiologicalresponse.
It's time to take a break.
(19:34):
Right.
And so their recommendation is20 minutes for me personally.
I need 30 minutes.
So if I feel like I'm attacked.
Yeah.
And it's coming out of thatplace of contempt for a specific
it can be either a person or itcan be this, this is a pattern
I've noticed in a said person.
Over a period of time.
(19:55):
So my hackles are up and if Ifeel attacked, my initial
response in the past has been tolash out verbally.
And let me tell you the thingsthat I can recall.
You're like, when did that everhappen?
And it's not nice.
It is like a Viper.
I can definitely be a Viper withmy words.
(20:17):
I'm aware of that.
And if you're going to come atme, kind of like, and poke the
bear.
I know exactly what I'm going tosay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So when someone comes to me nowand I feel attacked now, I, I
feel like I've, I've had help incounseling and things like that,
(20:38):
to be able to say, listen, Ihear what you're saying.
I am.
You need to know that I'm reallyangry right now.
I am going to take 30 minutes.
So that I can calm down.
I can collect my thoughts whenI'm calm and when I'm not like
(20:58):
I've, you know, I've put away mydarts, my poisonous darts that
I'm going to hug at you whenI've put that away and I've
processed what just happened andhow you approached me, then we
can talk about the situationand.
30 minutes might seem like aneternity for someone like you.
Right.
And who wants it dealt withright away.
(21:19):
But the people in my sphere havereally come to appreciate that
boundary because it will beresolved.
You will talk them just it's.
It's awesome.
And it's, it's going to
Bryan (21:30):
be ugly and it's not often resolved in that same
time.
And even the Gottman Institute.
Did a study about the taking abreak?
They called it the longitudinalresearch study.
They interrupted couples afterabout 15 minutes of argument and
told them just they, they werein a room they were studying or
they were arguing as part oftheir study.
And then after, when they wouldcome in, they would just adjust
(21:51):
some of the equipment in theroom.
And they talked to him when theycame into the room, they weren't
allowed to talk about the issue,but they had to read magazines
for half an hour.
And what happened was.
When they, when they came backafter that 30 minutes and they
were doing something else, likeyou can do something else,
listen to music, listen topodcasts, go for a run, go
workout, read, take a play withyour dog for a bit.
(22:11):
But that break, they came backand their heart rates were down
because you're in conflict.
So your journaling goes up, evenif it's with your spouse and the
interaction after that, or theargument after that was actually
a lot more positive directed,and
Natalie (22:25):
they worked it through.
And in that time where you'redoing something to calm down,
this is not the time where weare hashing out in our minds,
what we're going to say andwhere we're going to justify,
you know?
Well, they came at me like this.
And so when I, when, when I calmdown.
This is what I'm going to sayback.
This is not what that issupposed to accomplish
Bryan (22:44):
because like the, the actual antidote for this one is
called.
We haven't really said it.
We just kind of went into theantidote.
It's a psychological selfsoothing as the way the
government Institute, butthere's people that I know even
time over there's people that Iknow that in that timeout.
Are brooding over the situationand brooding, oftentimes in our
mind we take something that wassmaller and we made it bigger.
(23:08):
So the mountain started as amolehill, but in our mind turned
it into a mountain.
That's right.
Legitimately you've heard thatsaid almost in like now I said
this to out of a molehill and Isaid this to Natalie, not in a
nice way where like, I can'tbelieve you thought that was
such a big deal.
When it wasn't and that justexacerbates the situation.
Nothing is good because of that.
(23:28):
But when in this case, don'tbrood do something else,
completely different focus onsomething else, sit down and
actually let your mind go.
Don't focus on what they said orhow are you going to respond?
Just like we've said before,there's that saying?
Most people listen with theintent to respond, not with the
intent to understand.
This is a moment where you needto just understand and take
Natalie (23:50):
a break.
And if you need to have a nap,have a nap.
Yeah.
I like that all the time out.
Yeah.
Call a timeout.
And I have said this to my kids,I've said it to my spouse.
I've said it to family members.
Listen, I am going to put myselfin a timeout because what what's
going to happen next.
If I don't, it's just going tobe really nasty.
And
Bryan (24:10):
the thing is, is that.
Oftentimes, this is just athought that I had just looking
back to our own relationship.
Oftentimes we stonewalled.
And instead of coming back todeal with it, we lifted up the
rug and sorry.
Natalie (24:23):
Oh yeah, we were notorious for
Bryan (24:25):
that.
I didn't deal with it.
And we were bottling up ouremotions and our issues that we
had, and that never leads toanything.
Good.
No, it always ends up leading tobigger issues, more criticism,
more contempt, moredefensiveness, because you, you
actually came back after that 30minutes.
And instead of dealing with itdirectly, even if you agree to
(24:47):
disagree on in that moment, youcame to an agreement and you
positively walked away from it.
And I don't know how many timeswe came back to the same
blinking thing, because we justswept it under the rug.
I said, dealing with it.
Yeah.
Natalie (24:59):
And it will rear its ugly head.
Oh boy.
Out of nowhere, out of, andmultiple times, I think, you
know, if we can state that we'veall been stressed at some point,
there's a physiological responseto being stressed for me.
I get heart palpitations, myheart.
I feel like I can't catch mybreath.
I feel like your, your heartrate increases, your body
(25:23):
releases, stress hormones intoyour bloodstream, and it can
even trigger your fight orflight response.
Those are all, those are allgood in the right context, in
the right context, fight orflight is not bad, but in a
situation where we're talking,that's not a good Response.
It's not a good body's response.
Right?
(25:43):
And so when the emotional stressis super high, the proper thing
to do, or the wise thing to dowould be to take that little bit
of a break, change the scenery,right?
Don't think about the situation,calm yourself down.
Meditate.
If you have to, and then comeback at it with a clear mind,
(26:06):
because there's really
Bryan (26:07):
no one else in your life that can elicit.
Positive or negative responsesas much as your partner, right?
Yep.
And so the two things that we'vetalked about today have been
being defensive defensiveness.
The antidote for defensivenessis do you take responsibility
for your actions andstonewalling, which is, you
know, you run away from thefight and you shut out
(26:29):
everything.
You don't deal with it.
And the antidote for that isactually just a moment.
And you just take a breakyourself.
You self-soothe, you don't broodon the situation.
You don't find out.
I'm going to pick on the worstpossible things that they did,
but do you actually find a wayto come back at it positively
when not focusing on it
Natalie (26:47):
and taking a break?
That's right.
And just to, to compare lastpodcast at this one criticism.
Is the precursor to a defensiveattitude.
Right.
And contempt is the precursor tosomeone stonewalling.
Right.
Bryan (27:03):
And it's amazing how all of the things, even in the next
episode that we're going to bediscussing all of them, all of
them, all of them, all of themwork together to actually,
Natalie (27:13):
It's a nasty little stew we're
Bryan (27:14):
making.
Yeah.
And it, it causes rifts in therelationship.
Right.
And so it's we still hope thatyou've enjoyed this one and
being
Natalie (27:23):
encouraged.
Like these are like, these arenot light topics.
These are not light habits thatwe're talking about.
And we're talking about thembecause one we're passionate
about them and we've, we've,we've been them.
Bryan (27:38):
Yeah.
W we're passionate about helpingpeople get out of them,
passionate about them.
I'm passionate about no,
Natalie (27:43):
but about getting it out there because no, we need to
be talking about this kind ofstuff.
Bryan (27:48):
And there's stuff in relationships that just as
Christians, we grew up nottalking about and not dealing
with the mental health issues orthe things that are going on.
And we want to offer up as muchas options and solutions for
people as well.
Natalie (28:00):
Absolutely.
And to know that you're notalone.
Bryan (28:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if this is something thatyou've, you've really enjoyed,
you enjoy this podcast.
It does mean a lot to us whenyou share it.
But it also means a lot to uswhen people share the podcast.
And then get something from it.
Ultimately, the reason we'redoing this is to help as many
people as we possibly can.
Right.
And so just let people know whatamplified marriage.
You can follow us on Instagramand on Facebook.
(28:25):
And we say this all the time.
If there's a topic, or if thereis something you disagree with
or you want to add to, we'd loveto hear from you.
You can email us an amplifiedmarriage@gmail.com.
And as you hear us say, everytime, including if you're in
these lanes of.
Criticism, contempt,defensiveness, and stonewalling.
Even if you're in these lanes,we believe that marriage can be
(28:46):
reset, right.
Natalie (28:47):
Stored and recharged.
Thanks for listening.
Talk to you soon.
Welcome to season two, episode 14, the second part of
our pick your poison seriestoday, we are talking about
defensiveness and stonewalling.
Natalie (00:56):
Welcome to another episode of amplified marriage.
I'm Natalie and I'm Brian,wherever you are, whatever
you're doing, you hear us saythis every single podcast,
gravity, grab a snack and acoffee, get comfy and cozy.
We are so glad that you'vejoined us for our chat.
Bryan (01:13):
We are really excited to have you with us.
And if this is your first time,Or you have been with us for a
long time.
We just started last episode,our pick your poison series.
There's six of them that we'regoing to be going through.
And all of them have the markersof something that will lead to
divorce is this is the primarything that's in your
relationship or the primary waythat you function.
(01:35):
And so thank you for joining ustoday.
It's a bit of a heavy thing, butwe do have a couple things.
We're talking aboutdefensiveness and stonewalling
and each one of those things, wehave a solution on how to deal
with them.
So it's not like here's all theheavy and then walk away.
And that's it.
We want to give you a way out ofthese things in a way to proceed
forward in your relationship.
And you know, just as a note ofencouragement on, on the side,
(01:58):
we know that COVID has beentough.
We know that it's been aninteresting year.
The relationships have beenchallenged.
We have been coaching manycouples or those last year, just
on, on communication, on thingsthat they didn't expect they
ever had to run into because ofCOVID once both being close,
proximity, being close proximityor kids, or being at home or he
losing there's, there's a lot ofstress.
(02:19):
And so just know that we'rehere.
We are so glad that you listen.
We want to be on your side andif you.
Have anything you need us topray for, or just have any
advice or a question that youneed, something specific that's
even to you, we don't have toread it on the podcast.
We'd love to just answer you andbe encouraging in any way that
we possibly can, but just knowthat there we've, we're feeling
(02:42):
the pressure too, and we're hereto help.
And that's what our purpose is.
Natalie (02:46):
And if, if tonight's topics kind of interest you,
then go back and listen to lastthe last podcast where we talked
about.
Criticism and contempt.
So the sort of piggyback onthat.
Bryan (02:59):
Absolutely.
So we're starting with our verynext poison.
Our next poison isdefensiveness.
And typically this oftentimes isI would say almost all the time,
a response yeah.
To being
Natalie (03:14):
criticized, being criticized.
And it's so true.
Like I, we were planning.
To talk about this tonight, Iwas like, Hm.
I feel like I'm the, I was thequeen of defensiveness because
again, we're trying to get ourspouses to respond to us in what
we feel is a healthy way.
(03:34):
And sometimes we resort to thesekinds of tactics in order to get
that response.
And it just doesn't work that
Bryan (03:41):
way.
Right.
And we, we sometimes use it evenjust to like, we're going to be
critical and then they're goingto be defensive just to make
them get away or back off or notbe a part
Natalie (03:52):
of, and then come stonewalling when they're
defensive.
Right?
Like we'll, we'll kind offormulate the cycle as we go
through this, but bear with us.
We
Bryan (04:00):
want, yeah, we want to paint the picture of the
defensive Ines before we get toofar.
Exactly.
Natalie (04:04):
And also that if you find yourself being defensive or
that being kind of your go-toresponse, there is hope like
it's not, it's not the end foryou.
I think it's just bringing thisto your knowledge.
Giving you some tools and somepractical ways to combat that so
that you then can develophealthier patterns and
communicate.
Yeah.
Bryan (04:24):
Do you want scripture, like kind of just came to mind
now for all of these things thatwe've talked about being
critical contempt, defensivenessstonewalling, and the last two
that we're going to get into,all of it is the scripture that
says a soft answer, turns awaywrath instead of responding
sometimes how we're feeling.
If we just have a soft answer,gentle.
Kind word instead of theresponse and oftentimes a soft
(04:47):
answer.
Isn't our go-to because that'snot a normal, that's the
exception.
So respond
Natalie (04:51):
rather than react.
Bryan (04:52):
Right.
And so part of thedefensiveness, the way we want
to lay this down is like, I'mgoing to say it to that.
Like, here's the question?
Did you, did you let Nathan andKatrina know that we're not
going to be coming to theirhouse as we
Natalie (05:03):
promised?
So I think we should reversethis because this would be more
how it would, how I would be theone to ask you the question.
Yes.
So, and just wait, like theresponse that I'm going to give
is going to be, you know, snarkytoo.
So just hold on.
Hey, I, so I'm approaching youalready in a ticked off mood.
You've
Bryan (05:23):
already been critical.
You already have contempt for mebecause you think I didn't do
something
Natalie (05:27):
now in that I think you're an idiot mode.
I'm going to ask you a questionin that, in that frame of mind.
Absolutely.
So, Hey.
Did you call Nathan and Katrina,let them know that we're not
coming tonight.
As you promised you would dothis morning.
Bryan (05:42):
Wow.
Natalie (05:44):
That's what I mean.
Right.
And, and I can say it like thisbecause I have,
Bryan (05:49):
and my response would be, I just been so busy.
Why didn't you do it?
You knew how busy my day was.
Why didn't you
Natalie (05:55):
call them?
That's right.
And then you would also saysomething like, was your phone
broken?
Could you not have picked thephone up?
And given them a call or a text.
I don't understand why your, solike not wanting to do that once
you just
Bryan (06:11):
communicate.
Why is it, so
Natalie (06:12):
why is it so hard for you to
Bryan (06:13):
communicate?
Well, sometimes I, I don't, Ilike straight up when I've said
this to you, I don't understand.
Oh, I wonder what's happened.
Like, we'll use anythingKatrina, like, Oh, I think we're
supposed to go over theretonight.
What do they want us to bring?
I'm like, you could just texther
Natalie (06:25):
that's right.
And then I'm like, you couldphone,
Bryan (06:28):
like, and I'll be like, okay.
So I will.
Natalie (06:30):
Right.
So the partner, so Brian is notgoing to respond very kindly.
When my question is laced withtone, it's laced with a
superiority, let's be honestwhere I think I'm better than
you because.
You had a job to do you failedto do it, and I'm going to, I'm
going to like nail it to thewall that I know that you are a
(06:52):
failure in communicating in thisway.
And
Bryan (06:55):
in your defense, I gave you lots of reason to be
critical and have contempt anddo this.
Okay.
Natalie (07:02):
But that still doesn't make it right for me, right?
No, no, no.
And I certainly am no piece ofcake either.
There's a response to thedefensiveness, but then there's
the reverse blame that justhappened here in our example, to
make it somehow the otherperson's fault.
(07:23):
Right.
So I was like, why couldn't youdo that?
And then Brian's response to mewas I was really busy today.
Like, why couldn't you like, isyour phone broken?
Is this that the other, like,you're more than capable of
dialing a number or this, that,and the other you fill in the
blanks.
Right?
Bryan (07:37):
However that applies to you.
Natalie (07:39):
Exactly.
And then a simple non-defensiveresponse could express ownership
of that responsibility.
We are advocates for you, takeresponsibility for what comes
out of your mouth for youractions, your part in a
disagreement or whatever.
So being
Bryan (07:57):
able to, and, and let's even go a step further where
you're responsible for what youthink, because even in that,
that, that thought.
That thought moment you're youcan go to war and your thoughts
before you.
And so you have to take thosecaptives just as much as you do
with your responsibility, withyour mouth, with what you come
out, you have to control, what'skind of happening.
Natalie (08:19):
That's right.
And then responding.
So we're not reacting orresponding in a way that is
non-defensive.
That right there is going to be.
What's going to help youunderstand your partner's
perception.
And if
Bryan (08:31):
you're in a relationship and you know that you're
defensive and you know thatyou're working out of a critical
place, defensiveness onlyamplify, so only escalates the
already critical issues that aregoing on in your, and in the
relationship.
And defensiveness never, ever,never has been.
Man.
I w I, I never said to that.
(08:51):
Do you know what.
I wish you were more defensive.
I think it's helping ourrelationship.
And I can't believe that we'renot more defensive more often
because I think this is going tofix our relationship.
No one ever says that.
Natalie (09:01):
Right.
Maybe we should do a podcastwhere we are doing completely
what we shouldn't do and see ifanyone notices.
Bryan (09:08):
I feel like that happens on this part.
Natalie (09:11):
Right?
Let's talk the non-defenseresponse.
What could it be?
The
Bryan (09:16):
thing about defensiveness too is it's also.
Like, I think you mentioned itor alluded to it.
It's also the way that you blameyour partner for other things.
It's just like, it's, it's partof the blame game.
But it's, it really is.
You're just, you're so defensivebecause they didn't do something
and you're blaming them.
So do you take anyresponsibility?
That's
Natalie (09:35):
right, because when we have talked about this in
several podcasts, no one likesto be wrong.
No one likes to say, Hey, youknow what?
I kind of, I dropped the ball,but you don't realize how much.
For read them comes out of youjust taking that stance of like,
you know what I messed up.
Yeah.
There's, there's so muchdiffusion of communication bombs
(09:56):
that would happen if people justtook ownership of their part,
you know what you're right.
I shouldn't have responded.
Like I really asked you reallysnarky.
Let me start over.
Bryan (10:07):
Yeah.
And that's the actual, theactual antidote to
defensiveness.
Is to take responsibility foryour actions.
That's
Natalie (10:16):
right.
And a simple saying, Hey, I'msorry.
Like I know that I said I wouldphone them and I, my day got
away from me.
And I should have just looked atmy schedule and said, Hey, I've
got like appointment afterappointment, honey.
You're going to
Bryan (10:26):
have to phone.
Yeah.
And it's amazing what a softanswer we'll do and a soft out
there.
It doesn't mean that you whisperand you're like, you know what?
No, no, no.
It's a soft answer.
As you know what I understand.
I take responsibility for this.
I am sorry that I didn't do whatI asked.
Even, even if you miss the Mark.
The way that you, you, youactually fix things is by taking
(10:47):
responsibility, accepting thefeedback and the healthy
criticism and moving forwardwith that and be like, all
right, you're right.
I didn't do this.
I'm sorry.
That's my fault.
Natalie (10:58):
Exactly.
And expecting a differentresult.
I mean, we're, we're, we're likethings are stressed right now.
People are stressed.
The world is stressed.
There's a tension, there's ahuge tension.
You know, the suicide rates areup and depression and mental
illnesses are on the rise.
There's a tension there.
And if your go-to response isgoing to be defensiveness, it's
(11:21):
not going to have the desiredeffect that you're hoping for.
No,
Bryan (11:24):
because oftentimes when you are in the, that part or
that.
Unhealthy style or unhealthymoment of your relationship.
Defensiveness is alreadyreaction to the criticism and
the contempt that you're alreadyfeeling and to take
responsibility is a really,really big step.
And it, and here's the truth forall of you amplified marriage,
(11:45):
family.
It takes courage in any one ofthese things.
It takes courage to take thefirst step and be like, all
right.
I'm going to take responsibilityfor my
Natalie (11:55):
actions.
That's right.
That's the first step in allhealthy conflict matters.
And anything's,
Bryan (12:00):
if we had an antidote for any of the ones that we've
already gone to, it would havebeen just take responsibility
for your actions.
If you can do that, man, yourmarriage and your relationships
can change.
Because of your reaction to it,not your response to it, not
your reaction to that.
Yeah.
Right.
And
Natalie (12:17):
we become defensive when we're protecting ourselves.
Right.
It's a wall that we put uparound ourselves.
It's just not a healthy wall.
Right.
And
Bryan (12:24):
I like even thinking back to our early relationship or up
to what does a few months ago,we we've, we still sometimes,
and this is the thing, like Ihave a friend of mine named
Michael.
He never makes, he doesn't wantto have heavy conversations or
make decisions after eighto'clock.
Right, because, yeah, becausehe's like, I'm tired by that
point.
And I just don't want to talkabout these things.
(12:45):
And so he said, if we have tohave a heavy marriage
conversation, he's like, no, Ican't do this right now.
I got to do it tomorrow morningwhen I'm fresh and rested,
because he says in those momentswhen you're tired or you're
already frustrated when you'retired, Your inhibitions are down
and your, your, your crapfilter, isn't going to filter
any of the things that, youknow, you shouldn't say it's
(13:06):
just going to come out and thendamage actually can be done by
the words.
There's a reason, the words, orthe Bible talks so strongly
about watch your tongue,captivate, your captivate, those
things you, you can, you can bein control of that
Natalie (13:17):
and not everything.
And not every question thatcomes at you is an attack.
Right.
And I think, yeah.
In an unhealthy state of mind,if you've, if you're the victim
of trauma or abuse, those arethe self protection.
What's the word tactics that yourevert to, right.
And there is help there'scounseling and there's help
available.
The Gottman Institute kind oflaid out that whole scenario
(13:39):
that we had done with thephoning late and whatever.
And so that the defensive.
Response to that wholeconversation.
They posted looks like this.
It's not my fault that we'regoing to be late.
It's your fault since you alwaysget dressed at the last second.
Bryan (13:58):
So for us, that one's kind of funny because if Natalie
has to be anywhere, say she hasto be at drama at four o'clock
or five o'clock in the evening.
Yeah, we have legitimately leftthe house at 25 after.
And we are literally are fourminutes from the location in
which we were going to stopthat's right.
And even, even if we have to hitevery light on the way over and
(14:19):
we stopped to get coffee, we'restill 15 minutes early.
Cause our family is a very firmpleaser believers.
If you're five minutes early,you're 10 minutes late.
And so this one is kind of funnybecause we are, I'm always like
we don't have to leave yet.
It's four o'clock.
You don't have to be there untilfive.
It's just a big joke in ourhouse.
Natalie (14:35):
That's right.
So I would be the one to say,it's not my fault that we're
going to be late.
It's your fault seeing that youalways like put your shoes on
the last second or you can'tnever find your keys or you were
looking for your wallet or we'relooking for this, or now you're
going to the bathroom.
You fill in the blanks for whatit's going to be.
This would be something I wouldsay to you this week.
That's right.
And the antidote for that iswhat Brian.
Bryan (14:57):
Antidote is taking responsibility.
Natalie (14:59):
No, no, no, no.
I don't like being late.
Bryan (15:01):
Oh, you mean that antidote?
Actually, not just the statementended up.
I got you.
I got you.
I thought that we weren't thereyet.
I don't like being late, butyou're right.
I can't say that one.
Like I physically might be illif I have to say that I don't
like being late, but you'reright.
We don't want to have to leaveso early.
I can
Natalie (15:19):
be a little more flexed.
That's right.
And even so to put it, no,because that's not how you talk.
To put it in perspective ofhuman eye.
It'd be like, okay, wellknowing.
So I know that you don't likebeing late.
And so, because I know that Iwill make sure that I have my
keys and my wallet all kind ofin one spot or ready to go for
(15:40):
four 30 when you want to
Bryan (15:41):
leave.
Is it wrong to blame the kids totouch my stuff?
Natalie (15:45):
Yes, that's wrong.
We just talked about blamingGod, take responsibility for
your own keys and wallet and.
Shoes and jacket.
Bryan (15:53):
I didn't realize that it encompassed the kids too.
I can't believe the kids either.
Darn it.
Okay.
Moving on.
Natalie (15:58):
That's right.
And so you just have to assertunderstand, so you come at it
from a place of, Hey, Iunderstand, even though I think
it's ridiculous, like you and I,you think it's ridiculous that I
leave at four 30 and in mythoughts, I don't.
Necessarily care that you thinkis ridiculous.
I want to leave at four 30.
Great.
(16:19):
Yeah, that's
Bryan (16:19):
fair.
The very next poison isstonewalling.
Natalie (16:23):
This one is really, I have done this.
Bryan (16:26):
Can you explain to us what stonewalling is?
Natalie (16:28):
So as defensiveness follows criticism, stonewalling
follows contempt.
And so our next, you know, thenext podcast is just going to
piggyback on all of us and kindof bring it Like more
understanding to it, right?
Stonewalling is when you're in aconflict or you're attempting to
like manage the conflict.
(16:52):
And for whatever reason, thelistener withdraws from the
conversation, they shut down,they stop responding, right?
They ignore you.
They grab their phones, they'rescrolling through whatever
they're scrolling through.
They're not paying attention toanything you say.
So rather than confronting theissue with your spouse, people
(17:15):
tune out, they act busy, theydistract themselves.
They just might, they just mightwalk away and leave the
conversation.
Bryan (17:23):
We know someone who gets into this type of conflict,
Natalie (17:27):
right?
Yeah.
It's really the effects thatthis has on the conversation can
be really damaging if it's not.
Dealt with and dealt with in agood way, because it's
overwhelming.
Bryan (17:40):
That's why you're stonewalling.
Natalie (17:42):
Like these don't just happen overnight.
And that's the thing.
These are like over a period oftime.
And then all of a sudden in yourfeelings by the time it gets to
this place becomes thatunderstandable.
This is my out, and this is mygo-to out.
And then it becomes a bad habit.
Right.
Bryan (18:02):
Because in the moment in some conversations in some
hostile environment, it'sactually easier for you to just
disengage and take a breakbecause of everything that's
going on.
Again,
Natalie (18:15):
it's a coping mechanism.
Bryan (18:16):
Yeah.
Oftentimes because the firstthree poisons are already active
and they've compiled and they'realready just like, they're going
through running through your,the lifeblood of your
relationship.
And stonewalling is justcrushing it.
You're just, and now, now thisisn't making anything worse
because now you can't even bedefensive or the other person,
can you be defensive?
You can't face it.
(18:36):
Like when you've done this tome, it does not help me.
I get enraged oftentimes,because I'm the one that.
I am the one in therelationship.
That's like, no, we need to dealwith this now.
I don't like waiting.
We've talked about that.
Yep.
I know, cause you'll just belike, look, I'm very, very mad
right now.
And, and even, even as part ofthe solution to, to stonewalling
(18:57):
is look, you'll say to me, I'mmad.
I'm very mad, so mad.
I don't even want to talk aboutthis.
I need to take a break.
Can we come back to this half anhour from now?
Can we come back to an hour?
I'll tell you, you said to me,I'll tell you in that time in 60
minutes or an hour, if that'slong enough, if not, you're
going to give me some more timeand like, okay.
Yeah.
Natalie (19:14):
And it's so important.
Actually, the Gottman Institutesays that when we Stonewall, we
may not even be in aphysiological state where we can
discuss things rationally.
So just that alone of beingaware.
That there's a physiologicalresponse.
It's time to take a break.
(19:34):
Right.
And so their recommendation is20 minutes for me personally.
I need 30 minutes.
So if I feel like I'm attacked.
Yeah.
And it's coming out of thatplace of contempt for a specific
it can be either a person or itcan be this, this is a pattern
I've noticed in a said person.
Over a period of time.
(19:55):
So my hackles are up and if Ifeel attacked, my initial
response in the past has been tolash out verbally.
And let me tell you the thingsthat I can recall.
You're like, when did that everhappen?
And it's not nice.
It is like a Viper.
I can definitely be a Viper withmy words.
(20:17):
I'm aware of that.
And if you're going to come atme, kind of like, and poke the
bear.
I know exactly what I'm going tosay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So when someone comes to me nowand I feel attacked now, I, I
feel like I've, I've had help incounseling and things like that,
(20:38):
to be able to say, listen, Ihear what you're saying.
I am.
You need to know that I'm reallyangry right now.
I am going to take 30 minutes.
So that I can calm down.
I can collect my thoughts whenI'm calm and when I'm not like
(20:58):
I've, you know, I've put away mydarts, my poisonous darts that
I'm going to hug at you whenI've put that away and I've
processed what just happened andhow you approached me, then we
can talk about the situationand.
30 minutes might seem like aneternity for someone like you.
Right.
And who wants it dealt withright away.
(21:19):
But the people in my sphere havereally come to appreciate that
boundary because it will beresolved.
You will talk them just it's.
It's awesome.
And it's, it's going to
Bryan (21:30):
be ugly and it's not often resolved in that same
time.
And even the Gottman Institute.
Did a study about the taking abreak?
They called it the longitudinalresearch study.
They interrupted couples afterabout 15 minutes of argument and
told them just they, they werein a room they were studying or
they were arguing as part oftheir study.
And then after, when they wouldcome in, they would just adjust
(21:51):
some of the equipment in theroom.
And they talked to him when theycame into the room, they weren't
allowed to talk about the issue,but they had to read magazines
for half an hour.
And what happened was.
When they, when they came backafter that 30 minutes and they
were doing something else, likeyou can do something else,
listen to music, listen topodcasts, go for a run, go
workout, read, take a play withyour dog for a bit.
(22:11):
But that break, they came backand their heart rates were down
because you're in conflict.
So your journaling goes up, evenif it's with your spouse and the
interaction after that, or theargument after that was actually
a lot more positive directed,and
Natalie (22:25):
they worked it through.
And in that time where you'redoing something to calm down,
this is not the time where weare hashing out in our minds,
what we're going to say andwhere we're going to justify,
you know?
Well, they came at me like this.
And so when I, when, when I calmdown.
This is what I'm going to sayback.
This is not what that issupposed to accomplish
Bryan (22:44):
because like the, the actual antidote for this one is
called.
We haven't really said it.
We just kind of went into theantidote.
It's a psychological selfsoothing as the way the
government Institute, butthere's people that I know even
time over there's people that Iknow that in that timeout.
Are brooding over the situationand brooding, oftentimes in our
mind we take something that wassmaller and we made it bigger.
(23:08):
So the mountain started as amolehill, but in our mind turned
it into a mountain.
That's right.
Legitimately you've heard thatsaid almost in like now I said
this to out of a molehill and Isaid this to Natalie, not in a
nice way where like, I can'tbelieve you thought that was
such a big deal.
When it wasn't and that justexacerbates the situation.
Nothing is good because of that.
(23:28):
But when in this case, don'tbrood do something else,
completely different focus onsomething else, sit down and
actually let your mind go.
Don't focus on what they said orhow are you going to respond?
Just like we've said before,there's that saying?
Most people listen with theintent to respond, not with the
intent to understand.
This is a moment where you needto just understand and take
Natalie (23:50):
a break.
And if you need to have a nap,have a nap.
Yeah.
I like that all the time out.
Yeah.
Call a timeout.
And I have said this to my kids,I've said it to my spouse.
I've said it to family members.
Listen, I am going to put myselfin a timeout because what what's
going to happen next.
If I don't, it's just going tobe really nasty.
And
Bryan (24:10):
the thing is, is that.
Oftentimes, this is just athought that I had just looking
back to our own relationship.
Oftentimes we stonewalled.
And instead of coming back todeal with it, we lifted up the
rug and sorry.
Natalie (24:23):
Oh yeah, we were notorious for
Bryan (24:25):
that.
I didn't deal with it.
And we were bottling up ouremotions and our issues that we
had, and that never leads toanything.
Good.
No, it always ends up leading tobigger issues, more criticism,
more contempt, moredefensiveness, because you, you
actually came back after that 30minutes.
And instead of dealing with itdirectly, even if you agree to
(24:47):
disagree on in that moment, youcame to an agreement and you
positively walked away from it.
And I don't know how many timeswe came back to the same
blinking thing, because we justswept it under the rug.
I said, dealing with it.
Yeah.
Natalie (24:59):
And it will rear its ugly head.
Oh boy.
Out of nowhere, out of, andmultiple times, I think, you
know, if we can state that we'veall been stressed at some point,
there's a physiological responseto being stressed for me.
I get heart palpitations, myheart.
I feel like I can't catch mybreath.
I feel like your, your heartrate increases, your body
(25:23):
releases, stress hormones intoyour bloodstream, and it can
even trigger your fight orflight response.
Those are all, those are allgood in the right context, in
the right context, fight orflight is not bad, but in a
situation where we're talking,that's not a good Response.
It's not a good body's response.
Right?
(25:43):
And so when the emotional stressis super high, the proper thing
to do, or the wise thing to dowould be to take that little bit
of a break, change the scenery,right?
Don't think about the situation,calm yourself down.
Meditate.
If you have to, and then comeback at it with a clear mind,
(26:06):
because there's really
Bryan (26:07):
no one else in your life that can elicit.
Positive or negative responsesas much as your partner, right?
Yep.
And so the two things that we'vetalked about today have been
being defensive defensiveness.
The antidote for defensivenessis do you take responsibility
for your actions andstonewalling, which is, you
know, you run away from thefight and you shut out
(26:29):
everything.
You don't deal with it.
And the antidote for that isactually just a moment.
And you just take a breakyourself.
You self-soothe, you don't broodon the situation.
You don't find out.
I'm going to pick on the worstpossible things that they did,
but do you actually find a wayto come back at it positively
when not focusing on it
Natalie (26:47):
and taking a break?
That's right.
And just to, to compare lastpodcast at this one criticism.
Is the precursor to a defensiveattitude.
Right.
And contempt is the precursor tosomeone stonewalling.
Right.
Bryan (27:03):
And it's amazing how all of the things, even in the next
episode that we're going to bediscussing all of them, all of
them, all of them, all of themwork together to actually,
Natalie (27:13):
It's a nasty little stew we're
Bryan (27:14):
making.
Yeah.
And it, it causes rifts in therelationship.
Right.
And so it's we still hope thatyou've enjoyed this one and
being
Natalie (27:23):
encouraged.
Like these are like, these arenot light topics.
These are not light habits thatwe're talking about.
And we're talking about thembecause one we're passionate
about them and we've, we've,we've been them.
Bryan (27:38):
Yeah.
W we're passionate about helpingpeople get out of them,
passionate about them.
I'm passionate about no,
Natalie (27:43):
but about getting it out there because no, we need to
be talking about this kind ofstuff.
Bryan (27:48):
And there's stuff in relationships that just as
Christians, we grew up nottalking about and not dealing
with the mental health issues orthe things that are going on.
And we want to offer up as muchas options and solutions for
people as well.
Natalie (28:00):
Absolutely.
And to know that you're notalone.
Bryan (28:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if this is something thatyou've, you've really enjoyed,
you enjoy this podcast.
It does mean a lot to us whenyou share it.
But it also means a lot to uswhen people share the podcast.
And then get something from it.
Ultimately, the reason we'redoing this is to help as many
people as we possibly can.
Right.
And so just let people know whatamplified marriage.
You can follow us on Instagramand on Facebook.
(28:25):
And we say this all the time.
If there's a topic, or if thereis something you disagree with
or you want to add to, we'd loveto hear from you.
You can email us an amplifiedmarriage@gmail.com.
And as you hear us say, everytime, including if you're in
these lanes of.
Criticism, contempt,defensiveness, and stonewalling.
Even if you're in these lanes,we believe that marriage can be
(28:46):
reset, right.
Natalie (28:47):
Stored and recharged.
Thanks for listening.
Talk to you soon.
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