December 12, 2023 • 65 mins
When we think of motherhood, the images that typically come to mind are those of joy, love, and celebration. But what happens when the journey to motherhood unfolds in a place designed for punishment, not nurturing? Our guest, Brittany, exposes the stark and heartbreaking realities of becoming a mother in prison. We journey with her through the heartache of pregnancy behind bars, the profound isolation, and the harsh judgment of society.
Is it possible to find healing and self-discovery in such a bleak environment? Brittany's story says yes. She recounts the harrowing experience of giving birth shackled to a hospital bed, waking up to a corrections officer in the room, and then embarking on a journey toward self-discovery and healing. Her story peels back the layers of the prison system, highlighting the importance of understanding and addressing the underlying issues that lead to incarceration.
Finally, we delve into Brittany's life post-incarceration and the impact it had on her relationships and personal development. Brittany's story is not just one of struggle and hardship, but also one of resilience, self-reflection, and determination. This episode underscores the importance of looking beyond assumptions and recognizing the potential and humanity of individuals impacted by the criminal legal system. Brittany's story is a testament to the power of hope and the human capacity for change.
About Brittany:
Brittany is a determined advocate for human rights, youth justice, and legal policy reforms at the state, national, and international level. She has worked as a Justice Advisor for CTJA since 2021.
She holds a B.A. in Political Science from the University of Connecticut, and she is currently pursuing a J.D and Masters in Public Policy at UConn. Brittany personifies the power of education as an alum of Yale Law School’s Access to Law Fellowship and a Frederic Bastiat Fellow of the Mercatus Center at George Mason University.
Brittany brings her unique blend of lived experience and scholarship to her many leadership roles; she serves as Project Manager of the Juvenile Justice Policy and Oversight Committee with the Tow Youth Justice Institute, Smart Justice Leader with the ACLU of Connecticut, International Justice Exchange Project lead with the Institute of Municipal and Regional Policy, a member of the New England Commission on the Future of Higher Education in Prison, and Assistant Director of the National Prison Debate League.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro Voice (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Amber (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm Amber, your co-host, hereto reintroduce our conversation
with guest Brittany Lamar.
This is part two of a two-partstory.
If you have not listened topart one, please go to season
four, episode seven, of thepodcast.
(00:54):
When we left off with Brittany,she had just found out that she
was going to have a child andwould soon be sentenced.
Join us as we delve furtherinto her experience with the
criminal legal system and all ofthe things that she has done
since to help change thenarrative.
Brittany (01:15):
I struggled.
During that time.
I got into a relationship withwhat they tell you not to do
with somebody in rehab, and sowell, I was on the bracelet.
And so when I got out of thatsix-month program and I was
living in an apartment with thatperson for six months up until
my sentencing with the braceleton and it was I found out I was
(01:45):
pregnant during that time, andthen by the time I was sentenced
for the crimes that hadoccurred a year and a half
before then, I was seven monthspregnant, and so at my
sentencing, when I got sentencedto four and a half years, I was
seven months pregnant.
Jason (02:02):
So you were between seven and eight months when you went,
when you were incarcerated, howlong was the sentence?
Brittany (02:10):
Four and a half years.
Jason (02:11):
Four and a half years.
So you know on the day you'rewalking in that this baby is
coming out while you're behindbars.
Amber (02:20):
Right, and so was there any attempt at mitigation
because of that.
Jason (02:27):
Yeah, they could have delayed it for a few months,
right, correct.
Brittany (02:30):
My lawyer tried that he also.
We went in and my mom and Ivery much had an expectation and
my child's father at the timethat this would maybe be a year
and a half at most.
And then when the judge wasable to give up to a maximum of
five years in the plea deal andmy attorney had, you know, we
(02:56):
all I thought that this wasmaybe a year and a half.
And then in my head, afterlearning out some things, I'm
like OK, maybe if I do half ofthat, that's nine months.
So I was still trying to likecome to terms with like, ok, how
old will my child be?
Ok, only six months, only eightmonths, right.
And then I just sort of blackedout when I heard four and a
(03:17):
half years, like I just stoppedhearing anything else.
The judge said I mean I camehome not even knowing how much
probation I had or restitution,because I just I heard that and
I heard nothing else.
Amber (03:33):
So I just want to take a minute to acknowledge you know
what you just said and say thatI am really sorry that that
happened to you, because, ofcourse, as a mother myself, I
can't even begin to imagine.
You know what that meant foryou, and so I know that we're
(03:55):
getting to a part of your storythat can be a little bit painful
.
So I want you to take the spacethat you need and only talk
about whatever it is that you'dlike to talk about.
But I do want to highlight, forthe people who are listening to
this conversation, sort of theharshness of a system that could
(04:21):
have done things differently,regardless of what somebody has
or hasn't done.
When we think about humanityand what real accountability
looks like.
For me it doesn't look like anyof this.
Again, I just want to say thatI'm really sorry that, because I
(04:43):
can only imagine, like thinkingit would be one thing being
there after everything that youhad already been through.
Jason (04:52):
Amber, I have a question for you.
Amber (04:54):
Yeah.
Jason (04:55):
What kind of society takes a woman who's seven and a
half months pregnant, when anaverage, you know, typically you
deliver it nine months and youhave a month and a half to go?
Who's been out in the community, even if it's in an ankle?
We could talk about the GPSmonitoring all that, you know
(05:15):
another time.
But what type of a societytakes a woman who's about to
give birth and puts her behindbars?
Amber (05:30):
One that is monstrous.
I don't know that.
That's the only question I mean, that's the only answer that I
have.
So, brittany, did you have anyindication of like how that
would go?
Did you know anything aboutlike what health care looks like
in the system?
Brittany (05:50):
Oh, no, I had no idea about what I was.
You know what was happening tome from down out and so I don't
know what point to go here Icould talk about from my entry
(06:15):
into the facility, if that makessense.
And so, and I would also notethat for all of my courts there
was nobody else at the courtwith me my mother, as much as
she's always been someone alwaysthere.
(06:35):
I would not be where I am todaywithout my mother, but I can
imagine for her and who she islike, this wasn't something that
she could be there for orsupport or any of those things.
So she was very hands-off but asupport system.
So I also had nobody there theday of sentencing.
You know my friend who I'vebeen speaking about.
(07:00):
My mom had dropped me off at thecourthouse.
My friend had met me there andso we sort of hung out he was
using at that time.
I went into court by myself.
So this was also a very bigshock to my mom, but I hadn't
talked to her.
I don't know when she found out.
This was very much differentthan what we had planned and
(07:24):
expected and the room that wasset up for the baby and those
sorts of things.
So my goal then was to justtalk to my mom, and so that was
hard.
I got the one phone call when Igot there, but I called my mom.
(07:48):
But then it's like, ok, whatcan you call my child's father
at the time?
Or have you talked to my lawyer?
Who do you talk to for thosethree minutes?
And so I talked to her.
I went again through that wholeprocess.
You get put into the medicalunit.
Jason (08:11):
What month was it?
Brittany (08:13):
October, October, 31st Halloween.
Jason (08:17):
So it's at least.
At least it's not as hot as thehottest days of the year right
going in.
Okay, so I.
Amber (08:26):
Gas for a minute, because October 31st was also the same
day of my husband's arraignment,so it's a.
It's a.
It's a different kind ofHalloween in our lives.
Yeah, for sure.
Jason (08:41):
So, so you're in, and I mean, was it were you able to
make any friends?
Were there people who had beenthrough what you're going
through that could Talk with you?
Is there, was there any type ofyou know, any type of support
available for you?
Or were you once?
You, once you're inside, was itvery much an isolating,
continues to be an isolatingexperience?
Brittany (09:04):
It definitely continues to be an isolating
experience, but I think that'salso just part of who I am and
I'm not one to go out and Tryand befriend people or talk to
people.
I don't know where I am andI've always sort of been one who
internalizes.
So this was just sort of moreof what has always been for me
(09:25):
is just sort of this internaljourney and I Sort of wasn't
interested in what anyone elsehad to say, because this was my
life.
I had to figure out and youknow you'll hear people had
stories this way and that wayand you don't know what's.
I just knew my Journey anddidn't want to hear about the
(09:49):
horror stories of other peoplewho were pregnant.
Experience Like that wasn'tsomething that was helpful to me
.
So, right, I often limited myexposure to other people because
I, just as much as I, as muchas like you know, maybe it was
their way of expressing likeempathy or understanding, you
know, and I wasn't the only onethere was.
Eventually, you know, I am putin like the, you know regular
(10:13):
housing units, like the samemattress, same food, all that
sort of stuff.
So there's nothing sort ofspecialized there.
I don't know at what point.
Right, because you know, Idon't have direct access to a A
doctor, so you just wait andhope that a doctor reaches out
to you for like an appointmentor something which you know ends
(10:33):
up happening, I believe, amonth in and so.
But there was a at the time, aPre.
It was like a, a group forbefore pregnancy.
So there was about eight of usin there in a group with one
social worker and but you, wegot a pamphlet on like what
(10:59):
giving birth is like, because Iagain, these aren't
conversations I've ever had withanyone, so I don't know like
what to expect.
So we get a pamphlet and it'slike about birth and so I try
and like read this in my unitand figure out, like Physically,
what's gonna happen to me, likewhat to expect, like the
process, those sorts of things.
(11:19):
But the group Consisted of a lotof women who were still just
trying to figure out where theirkids were gonna go, and that's
hard, I know my situation was.
I was Very lucky to be able toplan out, to have, you know, my
mom be there, like you have to.
(11:41):
What it's very tricky in which,like my mom, while I'm in the
hospital for the three days thatyou get Needs to be at court
and given, like the, theguardianship and those sorts of
things within the three daysright or there's.
You know these like DCFinvolvement and the child goes
somewhere and then to my mom.
So it was very like a timelysituation in which, like we
(12:06):
needed to time it but I hadsomebody I would.
I would say at least half ofthose women that was not the
case in that group.
So the time of that group verymuch consisted on Support for
them, this one social workertrying to figure it out.
Jason (12:22):
Yes, so I mean you're.
What you're describing, though,is that, in your particular
case, that was one stressor thatwas taken off.
I mean, you were, you knew youwere gonna be parted from your
baby, right, but but your babywas gonna go to to your, to your
mother, and be taken care of inyour family.
You know, this is somethingthat you had, but what you're
(12:42):
describing is that there arewomen that that don't have that
privilege, right, and that theythey not only are they in the
situation that you were in,where they're about to Get birth
, but they also have no ideawhat's gonna happen, whether
they're gonna be separatedforever from their child and
that they'll never get to seethe baby ever again.
(13:02):
Because I was actually.
Isn't that a thing where, ifyou you know, if you're if
you're incarcerated for certainlength of time and the babies
Not with you, you lose parentalrights?
Brittany (13:14):
So that's yeah.
There's a yeah In getting intothat.
Once you know you're sort ofput into like the postpartum
group.
I mean the story just get worseafter someone gives birth.
You know it's six months andthe mom still has no idea where
the kids are and nobody's gottenin contact with somebody.
(13:35):
It's yeah.
I mean, the compounded traumaof that experience is, you know,
entirely opposite of you knowhow someone should be put in a
place to succeed when they leaveSix, six months from their
release.
After going through all of this, I don't think it's reasonable
(13:58):
to expect someone to come outand Be better off For sure right
for sure.
Jason (14:05):
So we just read that was.
I'm sorry.
Amber (14:07):
That's all right.
So so, brittany, you describedsort of being in those groups
and you know, any person who hasgone through the process of
childbirth knows that it's a.
It's a process where,particularly the first time it
happens to you you're, you don'tknow what to expect in Just out
(14:28):
in the world, right, if youhaven't talked about it or you
haven't had support services.
So the idea that somebody wouldbe handed a pamphlet while you
know Having already lost theirfreedom and be surrounded by
people that you know for support, with one social worker, that
that just seems Reallyoverwhelming.
(14:49):
And then, on the flip side, oneof the things that I found as a
woman after giving birth to myfirst child was I wish I would
have known what happens after,what happens to my body after,
what happens to my emotionsafter, and that in a regular
situation is challenging, muchless in a situation like you
(15:14):
found yourself in.
So you, my point is how wereyou feeling like with all of
those things, sort of coalescingand converging?
Brittany (15:28):
You know, amber, I, I still.
You know, there's like thatdriving force in me, that's like
, and I hear my mother's voice.
It's like just keep putting onefoot in front of the other.
So I don't know that I wassitting and feeling these things
, are thinking about thesethings is like, alright, just
this is what you have to do.
It's you.
(15:48):
You had to.
What choice did you?
Yeah, and so that has it's.
You know it's a double-edgedsword, but that's sort of how I
got Through that, you know.
But my time in there I was, youknow, I, yeah, it was very use.
(16:12):
It's visible and obvious.
The way that correctionsofficers had treated other
incarcerated people where anysort of issues that were brought
up or I'm not feeling well or Ithink I'm having contractions,
those sort of things wherethey're not taken seriously and
(16:33):
because you're a woman, you'redramatic or you're exaggerating,
like you're just trying to getout of your unit, and I mean,
you see, those sort of scoffedat issues led to the lawsuit
which changed the laws here inConnecticut in 2018, in which
the you know, officers didn'ttake seriously someone's
(16:56):
concerns that they were havingcontractions, which led to the
individual giving birth andtheir cell, and so I was very
you know, it was visible to melike, and I also don't trust the
system, didn't trust any of thepeople there because of how
dehumanizing at which theenvironment is.
Like you know, these people arenot your allies.
(17:17):
So I remember to not speak toany officer if I did not have to
, and so I.
That was also something whereI'm like, okay, how do I know if
I'm having contractions and atwhat point, like don't I very
much did not want to have to sayanything if I wasn't sure, and
which led me to being, you know,very dilated by the time that I
(17:40):
said anything, because in themiddle of the night, because I
wanted to be sure, I was likecounting it for hours before I
said anything and I think, wouldalso help do is I was like a
week overdue.
So when the officer asked when Iwas due, I guess to sort of
make their own decision as towhether I was in contractions
clearly they were a clinicalindividual that needed to make
(18:02):
that decision.
Maybe that's what also pushedthe need on getting me over to
the medical unit.
But there were times, you know,where, if there were fights or
there was issues, there was.
You know, it's a prison facility, not everyone gets along.
And so those sort of loudthings where I'm like, you know,
in it, if I was home, right, Iwouldn't be putting myself in
situations where there's chaos,where there's a stress inducing
(18:23):
anxiety, and so I was also awareof, like, the effects that that
would have on my child andbeing a mother where, like,
that's not right, the idealsituation to to be in, and so
those sort of things would also,you know, compound the stress
of like, how do I ensure becauseat that point I'm like, okay,
how do I just make sure that mychild does not grow up with any
(18:47):
sort of like internal, likeissues because of me, like, how
can I ensure that from likebirth there he's on a path to
success?
And I know it starts in thewomb and I know it starts with,
like prenatal health and thosesort of things.
And I'm like, am I already, youknow, am I already fucking up
here?
(19:07):
And I can't control it, I can'tdo better, I can't remove
myself from the situation.
Jason (19:13):
So you had, you had a layer of guilt, that to yourself
, a lot of pressure on yourselfbecause of a situation that you
couldn't control at that point.
And then you started describing, before you're having these
contractions, you you in anormal circumstance you would
have said, hey, I think I'mpregnant, let's go to the
hospital, or you know, and getit checked out.
(19:34):
You're you're saying, well, Ijust have to really be sure.
So you've probably endured alittle extra pain along the way
just because of thecircumstances.
And then finally it gets to thepoint where you can't ignore it
anymore and the officer saysthis, it's time, so what?
So a couple questions, like canwe talk a little bit about the
(19:54):
experience?
And also, given your your yourpast with with substance abuse,
what's what about in terms ofthings that they could
potentially give you to easesome of your discomfort and pain
?
How does what's going on?
You know where?
Where are you physically whenyou give birth?
(20:14):
Do they take you to a hospital?
Is it in the prison?
Like, give us a picture of thatexperience?
Brittany (20:22):
Yeah.
So I go over to the medicalunit.
They, you know, a firm right.
You are in labor.
So at that point I'm shackled,I am put in a van and taken over
to the hospital.
Jason (20:36):
And the van that you're and just to pause you there.
So we had had Tracy Bernardi onthe talking about going to the
medical facility in the bus.
You called it a van, but butbeing you're saying shackled,
but being shackled in in anunsafe cage as you're being
(20:56):
driven over, I mean that wasyours because at the same time
frame had to have been the sameexperience.
Brittany (21:02):
Okay yeah, you're pregnant.
Yeah, and so it really suckedevery like bump we hit and not
being able to like cushionmyself because my hands are
shackled and so I'm just sort oflike sitting there like taking
everything.
It was a very uncomfortableride and then you're quick.
No, and then you have the, theshame of being pushed into a
(21:24):
hospital with shackles on withyou know you're out in public
and now you're just thispregnant person.
Like what does society think of?
Like how horrible does somebodyhave to be to you know what
horrible person to be a motherwith, like you know, in shackles
?
Like you must be like a monster, and so those are.
(21:45):
You know, that sort of shameand ostracization like that you
feel in a situation like that.
And so I only have, like this,one corrections officer next to
me who I hadn't seen before.
Jason (21:57):
but man or woman?
Brittany (21:59):
a woman, and so at that point they give the the
whatever fluids.
I'm not quite sure.
I know I needed to do what youdo at a hospital where you walk,
or maybe I was walking around,maybe that happened after, I'm
not sure, but I know for acouple hours I was trying to do
(22:20):
it without the epidural becauseat that point I just I wanted
nothing to do with anything thatwould ever lead me to to a
relapse or like trigger thatpart of me.
I was very aware of like how myaddictive behavior and that
tendency and how it was witheverything.
It was like that with withsoccer, where it was never good
(22:41):
enough and I did it 1000% andit's just to I am, and I have to
accept that and so, butnonetheless, two hours in, I did
, I agreed to that, but Dura,and I guess within minutes, like
my heart rate dropped, thebaby's heart rate dropped, and
then all of a sudden I'm beingtold I need to have an emergency
(23:02):
C section.
I had never read anything inthat pamphlet about a C section,
so I have no idea what thatmeans.
I'm extremely squeamish ingeneral, so I like start getting
very ill and I just rememberlike my body shaking, like on
the bed, and they're like here,you have to sign this paper so
we can do the surgery.
And all I wanted to do was liketalk to my mom, who's a doctor,
(23:25):
and be like what does this mean?
Like what's going to happen tome?
Like what's the C section?
Like what is what am I signing?
And so I signed X.
I have nobody to like sort ofconsult on this.
And I remember getting, as I'mabout to be taken to the, to the
(23:46):
operating room, the correctionsofficer says like I have to go
with her, and the doctors likewell, no, this is a operating
room like we, you can't be inthere.
And so there was like a littleback and forth and then I was
able to go to the operating roomwithout the corrections officer
, or maybe I don't know whereshe was, but I know at that
point I was very scared and justso I just start like it's gonna
(24:15):
get a little crap I just waslike shaking and vomiting during
the surgery.
I wish they had to like put meout, I guess.
No, no, during the surgery,during the C section, I was not
shuffled because I think it wasjust it all had to happen.
But when I woke up I was so, Iremember, because I was just
(24:39):
getting like so ill and I was inmy own head.
I mean, this was just a levelof anxiety that I just like was
physically ill from.
I remember hearing my son cry,and then I was put out.
And then when I woke up in theroom and I guess that's just
(24:59):
sort of the turning point ofwhere I am today and I wake up
and I see a corrections officerin the corner of a room and I
hear a baby like in the next tome and I see a shackle on my
(25:22):
foot and I just like look.
I just remember like looking upand being like what the fuck am
I supposed to do?
Like where am I?
Like?
What do I do now?
Like what am I supposed to dowith this kid?
Like I don't, there's nothing Ican do here.
And I remember like very vividly, like that's the bottom, that
(25:44):
it hit where it's like youeither give up and like die
because I can't get worse, oryou do like whatever it takes to
to never come here again, tonever be in a position like this
again.
And that's when I started doinglike the my journey of like
(26:05):
deep inquiry.
Okay, so, like what does thisstem from?
Like what is what?
What drove me Like how do I fixthese things?
That led to this?
Because the surface level, Itried that surface level stuff
I'm just like not using.
And so that's when, like mythree years long of connection
to Buddhism, connection tohigher power, connection to like
I said that that sort of deepexploration of of self, where I
(26:32):
was just so vested into intomyself, getting to understand
myself, like after acceptance ofwhat my situation was, and and
a lot of the, the depressionthat I guess you know should be
assumed that comes with it, thatsituation, a point you know.
(26:57):
Upon return back to thefacility, it's just like okay,
so like, let's start doing thework.
I started doing the steps withmy sponsor.
I started reading on Buddhism,meditating every morning,
getting getting you know,working there, attending all the
groups, and it was really avery independent journey in
which I a discovery of self andwhich I had never done before,
(27:21):
which is why I said, when youasked what I was interested in,
I had no interest, I didn't knowmyself, and this was, you know,
the time at which I like knewit was like get to know yourself
or get comfortable with, likecoming back, like in and out of
prison.
Jason (27:38):
It seems like the year it seems like the year before you
were incarcerated you alreadywere starting the work that
you're describing and then, andthen this was a reaffirming,
like the moment that you becameyou know, your child was born it
.
You just had this almost like aha epiphany, like this is my
(28:00):
life now and things, things gotreal for you.
Brittany (28:04):
Like now I've got a reality that this punch me in
the face and it was like but itwas affirming.
Jason (28:12):
It just said this is what we're going to do now.
Brittany (28:15):
Yeah, I mean you have no, because really I saw no
other option.
It's like or just like don'tlive because, like it can't get
worse from here.
I mean, you know, it was just.
Jason (28:25):
So we're going to talk a little bit about some of the
things that that led to and whatyou're doing now, but before we
get there, I want to just stayfor a moment.
I mean, first of all, I want tofind out, like, did you hold
the baby?
And that sort of thing.
But before we get there, youknow, just a comment to
reemphasize where we just were,I mean I was drawn into the
(28:48):
story.
I mean I felt like I was in theroom with you and I saw Amber's
face.
I know that she was in the roomwith you.
So I hope that when people arelistening, that they get that
experience like that they'rewith you, that they were there.
It's just a very emotional story.
You know, we've told thenumbers.
We've had a number of guests onover the years now and this is,
(29:11):
you know it's, it's, it's oneof the most emotional stories
that we've heard.
You know there's nothing likegiving birth and the story that
you told about, about, aboutbeing in that room and what you
went through and and and howscared you must have been with
the C section.
I mean it's just such apowerful moment and experience
(29:34):
that you've had and and, and.
There's some things that youcould do that are so good with
that right.
Just just telling your story.
So thank you for being here,absolutely.
You know we'll thank you againat the end.
I know it's very difficult andemotional to go through and that
and you and you were living itagain.
So I want to acknowledge that.
So you're, you're, you're nowyou're, you're reshackled.
(29:57):
You wake up from the C section,the babies in the room.
How quickly do they hand youyour, is it you said, son, the
hand you your son.
Brittany (30:06):
Yeah yeah.
I sort of I would say likewithin the hour, so I have no
words with the office, I toldyou I have no interest in being
acquainted, or I'm, yeah, I haveno interest in befriending any
(30:27):
of these people.
And so the nurse comes in andwas changing the baby's diaper
and asked if I wanted to holdhim or handed him to me.
I think she just handed him tome and I just didn't know what
to do with that.
I'm, I know I'm going back toprison in three days, sure.
(31:00):
So I tried, and I also it was alot of work to allow myself to
to be vulnerable, to like thatnatural connection to my son.
One, because, like my wallswere up to something I already
knew I was getting disconnectedfrom, sure, but two, also, not
(31:23):
having experience and emotionalconnection.
Like that, growing up was likehow do I now do it differently,
like with my son?
How do I?
I need to show affection, hasnever been affectionate person.
How do I go out of my comfortzone and be a different person
and have a differentrelationship with my son?
So, like these are feelingsthat aren't unknown to him.
(31:48):
And so there was it was a verysort of complex a lot of
emotions going on there and so,yeah, I was able to feed him and
hold him, but I would say,having been from a surgery, I
(32:10):
couldn't move much.
I still had these things on mylegs that I kept them from
swelling, or these compressionthings right in the shackle,
which I was still trying tounderstand.
Like I can't sit up and walk,why am I shackled to a bed?
I can't even sit up, I can'teven, like, move my body
(32:31):
sideways.
It's like I'm not runninganywhere.
Jason (32:35):
The why.
The why is for humiliation hasnothing to do with security.
Brittany (32:39):
Yeah, no, there was, there's no, you know.
And so so there were times atwhich I had to ask for help to
get my son back into the, but Iwould just hold on to it till
the nurse came in and asked them, you know, for for help or to
feed.
I did not sleep those entirethree days.
(33:01):
I just didn't want to miss aminute, and so I would.
Yeah, I just spent as muchquality time just holding him
and looking at him, and and then, like the third day, my mom was
able to come the last day.
Jason (33:27):
Did you get extra time because it was a C-section.
Brittany (33:30):
If you had, if you had had a there was one extra day
only because of, like I told you, that excursion in the
operating room where I lost alot of blood because of what my
body was doing while I'mco-opened, so where I needed to
stay an extra day before.
I was like okay to go back.
(33:50):
So I did get three full daysinstead of like the two, given a
regular delivery, and so my momwas able to come that day,
which, also, having those threedays and because I went on I
believe it was a Friday orSaturday it's like okay, now we
have one day where our court isopen, so, like my mom can get
(34:12):
the custody and everything thatshe needs while I'm still in the
hospital.
So that worked out.
And so then it was like thetime to go back and you're very
much made to just hand yourchild over to strangers.
(34:34):
They were.
I handed them over to thenurses and the CO's just push
you up.
Amber (34:43):
And so you knew at that point that you know it was going
to be some time before you sawyour child again, and so that
you're going in the same sort oftransport van back to the
facility.
Brittany (35:01):
Yeah.
Jason (35:01):
Yeah, without the baby, and you've had the baby with you
for nine months and now youdon't.
Amber (35:10):
Yeah.
Jason (35:11):
And you must have felt that separation.
Brittany (35:16):
Yeah, I mean my arms felt like a million pounds, like
once he was out of them.
I give it's just like the wholethe emptiness was like that
weight was insurmountable.
Amber (35:35):
Thank you so much for sharing to so people can
understand the humanity that iserased, ignored behind the walls
, and I know that you know thisis a difficult process and we're
so thankful for for you sharingthis with us.
You talked a little bit aboutthis internal decision making
(36:04):
and how you had started thatjourney before you were
incarcerated after the birth ofyour son.
You know are really thinkingabout this more and I think what
I heard you say was this was ajourney that you embarked upon,
with decisions that you made,because a lot of people say you
know things like well, that'swhat that person needed was
(36:26):
prison.
So can you sort of address thatline of thinking?
Brittany (36:32):
Yeah, and 100%, because prisons are not a place
of healing.
They are only a place thatexasperates that, the trauma and
the pain and the barriers tosomeone ever successfully
leading a life at which theywould like to live and that is
beneficial to society, to afamily, to a child.
(36:55):
So, 100%, a prison is not aplace at which someone is not a
place or someone learns tothrive.
I would say that what wasneeded for me was like the space
(37:17):
to one like feel like it wasokay, at which to to sit and
take time for myself.
The system chose a prisonfacility, but that's something
that can be provided to someonein any sort of form, at which
(37:42):
they're not feeling thepressures of survival at the
time.
So what a prison provides is ismeals, a bed and a roof, with
with all dehumanization andstrip of identity that comes
with it and all the collateralconsequences.
(38:03):
At the end, I mean it's, it'snot the place, but what was sort
of always a little bit of abarrier was like the external
forces of you know, needing,needing to pay bills and needing
to like just survive, and soyou never fully, I never fully,
(38:25):
allowed myself the space atwhich to just sit with myself
and not feel like I needed to domore.
And that's also, like I said,the double-edged sword of
growing up, feeling like I needto be so much more.
So I always felt guilty if Isaid I did anything for myself
or or with myself.
And so having a space at which,like I, anyone can, can recover
(38:51):
and sit and take the timewithout feeling the, the and
that's because all of that wasjust erased from like being
possible for me but no I.
The conditions of confinementand end of a prison facility I
(39:12):
know for for myself, hinderedmany things.
It clearly still has a lot ofimpact on the pain that I carry
day to day and so and that'swait.
I wanna.
Jason (39:28):
I wanna stay there for a second.
I mean so the.
The one thing that's reallyimportant that you just said is
that that the, that thepunishment inflicted by the
state is not just the time thatthey say it is, that you're that
that you know, you you have,you're never gonna get back that
(39:50):
time that you lost with yourson.
You, you have this and, and I'msure there's some sort of PTSD,
certain interactions withdifferent when you encounter
different situations out in theworld.
Plus, you know all the othercollateral consequences, but the
.
But it's really important foreverybody to understand that the
(40:11):
, that the punishment, when yousay, you know, don't do the
crime if you can't do the time,the time is a lot more than the
time that people think it is,and that's what you're starting
to get at.
Brittany (40:25):
Yeah, I mean 100% it.
It has had a permanent effecton the bond that's developed
between a mother and child inthose very critical first years
where, like that's where, likethe baby learns who to trust
(40:45):
their connection right, andthere's very much, you see that,
with that natural sort of thatnatural connection between my
mom and my son and that's, youknow, and we're in a very good
place now.
But you can, his grandma is,you know, everything to him, and
(41:08):
so this is those developmentalyears that doesn't, you can't
change that, that creates likethe building blocks of
somebody's life, and so that'sjust, you know, in sort of that
connection that I also wasn'table to develop.
You know, I have a amazing momwho would come up twice a week
(41:31):
and bring him to see him, and Iam very lucky to have had that
and create those times.
I would the shirts that he wouldcome up, like when he was a
baby, and throw up during the.
I mean I would sleep with thoseshirts for like weeks and to be
able to like smell him, likehop in, and then the shirts that
I would wear, like I would, youknow, send to the visiting room
(41:52):
.
My mom was able to take themhome and she'd take them in the
crib with them, like those sortof things to try and build,
maintain, and I had a supportivemom in trying to do that.
But no, it's very much changed.
Yeah, the punishment is on sortof how the forever relationship
(42:14):
between me and myself.
Amber (42:17):
And so, brittany, I know that you know we talked about
the spark that was created.
You did a lot of internal work,and so what was the time that
you ended up spending?
And then I would really I knowthat you have done a lot of
(42:38):
really amazing work, so I reallywould like to make sure,
because you know of limited timethat we talk about that.
So let's sort of talk about howmuch time did you spend and
then move on to sort of whathappens next.
Brittany (42:54):
Right I did.
I found out that the time thatI had to do one of my burglary
charges due to the amount ofmoney is considered a violent
charge.
Thus I had to do 85% of my time, not 50.
So although there was nophysical violence, there was no
interaction among people it wasa charge that I had to do 85% of
(43:17):
my time for, which also becamea shock to me during my
incarceration and something Iwasn't aware of until I was
incarcerated and somebody withthe same charge notified me and
then confirmation from theadministrative department.
So that added a whole anotheryear and a half on to the time
that I was expecting to do.
(43:38):
So I ended up doing three and ahalf years about, but I had to
do the remainder of my time in ahalfway house.
So the only way for me tobecause the way that the system
is set up, my halfway house datewas before my parole day and so
(44:03):
I my only chance was to go to ahalfway house.
My parole date was way tooclose to my end of sentence that
I.
The only way for me to get outsooner was to go to a halfway
house.
I went to a halfway house andhad to finish.
Like I said, because of justhow close my parole date was to
my end of sentence, I just hadto finish the remainder of my
(44:26):
time in the halfway house, whichwas a little over a year.
In that time I worked multiplejobs.
I had done higher education inprison and so I had also made
connections for years, writingcorrespondence letters to
universities and departments ofareas which I found interesting
to me it's human rights so gotconnected to Yukon prior to my
(44:48):
release for a couple of years atthe Human Rights Institute and
then so, once I got into thehalfway house, I connected with
those people at which I was onlydoing written correspondence
and they helped me formulate myapplication to Yukon when I got
home and I was in the halfwayhouse, so that following
semester I started attendingYukon.
(45:10):
I completed my bachelor's, Iwas working several jobs just
doing anything to make money andsave money while I was in the
halfway house, so serving tables, and I was a personal trainer
at a gym and I had found my wayback into exercise and at the
gym while incarcerated, to tryto, like you know, write that
(45:34):
elegantly on my resume.
I had to get a personaltraining job when I got home.
But I worked in a gym for acouple of years, right For the
state of Connecticut and so, andthen the last worked a couple
of those jobs like staining logcabins, doing really anything,
just working as many hours as Icould, saving as much money as I
(45:56):
could.
So then I, ultimately I camehome.
I it took a lot to get anapartment.
I had to sit there and getletters of recommendations.
You know, explain myself again,right?
I mean I've already had to dothis in court, but now, for
everything I have to do in life,I have to explain and recount
(46:19):
why I should be, why I amqualified or why I am worthy of
any of the things I'm asking for, why I'm worth even my
waitressing job, you know I'm,why I shouldn't be judged or
being an addict in the past,like how can they trust me?
Now you know how you're notgonna steal from all these
things that I have to.
Every single time getting intocollege, I mean I have to check
(46:41):
the box and say, yeah, I'm this,but like this is who I am, I
had to sit there and relive mystory again for all these
strangers.
And so you know, when is itenough?
Like when?
When have you told yourselfenough, or like you don't have
to do it anymore.
It's not a thing when you'reformerly incarcerated, no matter
what, like you always have tojustify your worthiness of
(47:02):
anything of opportunity, ofcredibility, right.
So it took a lot where I got astudio apartment I mean I had a
year and a half of denials rightas a planning and a halfway
house, because that happens.
I mean it's impossible to getapartment with a criminal
conviction and so nonetheless Ifind one.
The idea was to just really beas close to my mom as possible.
(47:24):
So I was like a seven minutedrive from then because my mom
had been, you know, doing some.
She had to get to work, to havemore.
So like she was doing a lot ofthings to just like manage my
son.
So now I was able to go over inthe morning at 5.30, she could
go to work instead of herdropping off with my sisters.
Like the village was raisingright Son.
(47:44):
So now I was close enough to beable to do these things and be
there, and so he would wake upand I, you know, be at my mom's
house.
So I was slowly just likeinserting myself into his daily
life, bringing him to school,these sort of things that I
thought would be difficult formy mom to allow trust for, but
(48:05):
she very much just saw who I wasin my actions.
I know my mom's not in theworld, right, is they?
Very much, don't?
Words are sort of taken with agrain of salt.
So it's all through action thatI needed to just prove, prove
who I was.
And so, within that time ofpursuing education, I got
(48:29):
accepted into Yale Law School'sAccess to Law Program.
And that's the first time andthis was through a professor
from one of my higher educationand prison courses had reached
out and said hey, why don't youapply for this?
And I was not expecting to getin.
I got interviewed and I got inand like I the whole like year
(48:52):
and a half I mean you guys areaware that I have like I don't
even know how many.
I think there's like seven, Idon't know what actually I kind
of charged with.
I know right now, in producinglike my part of application and
getting my rap sheet, I'm like,okay, it's part of the plea deal
, like okay, this didn't go,like I had no idea what actually
happened in court, as I toldyou, and so nonetheless, I get,
(49:14):
like you're aware, like no, likeyou can do it, you can go to
law school.
And I'm like, okay, thesepeople believe, like in me, like
I'm gonna do it.
You know, at doors I keep, Ijust keep working hard and I
keep leaning into education.
I keep finding like these, youknow, these couple of people
(49:35):
that believe in me.
I'm gonna lean on it and I'mgonna do my best and I'm going
to, you know, really show up formyself and prove to myself like
these are things and then proveto the world that people with
criminal convictions are nottheir past, they're not their
worst stake and that anybodycould change.
(49:56):
Just give in like an open door,just give someone an opportunity
, right, and so that's a, youknow, ultimately went through
that process with the Access toLaw Fellowship, got into Yukon
Law.
I started my masters in theprocess.
So I'm finishing my masters inpublic policy and going into my
(50:19):
second year of law school atYukon Law.
And then, through the process,you know, continued my
professional experience rightnow managing Connecticut's
juvenile justice policy andoversight committee at the state
legislature.
The assistant director of theNational Prison Debate League, a
visiting fellow at Yale LawSchool in the Shell Center for
(50:41):
International Human Rights and Ican't keep up.
Jason (50:46):
I mean, I'm like I'm like , my mind is like, wow, like.
Amber (50:51):
I can't keep up either.
Jason (50:52):
Here's what we'll do you give us all these things later
and we'll put it in the shownotes.
Amber (50:56):
Yeah.
Jason (50:57):
You'll have the whole resume for the.
You know this is Brittany'sthis who's who of everything
she's done.
Yeah.
Amber (51:04):
So, brittany, I know you've done some things at the
legislature in terms of publictestimony, things like that.
Was that something that, likeyou, knew how to do, or how did
you get into that?
Brittany (51:19):
No, so that was not something I knew how to do.
You know being, you know beingultimately stripped of all sort
of fundamental rights whileyou're incarcerated.
I wasn't attuned to how topromote them or uphold them for
(51:40):
myself.
So, upon my release, and givenmy personal journey that I've
told you, it was very much apassion of mine to ensure that
the system changes, in whichhumanity is upheld, human rights
are preserved and no womanwho's incarcerated, who's going
(52:06):
to go through what I've gonethrough, and so I tell my story
in a way that I don't want thisto ever happen to somebody else.
And so, given the opportunitywith the ACLU of Connecticut and
the tools of the ConnecticutJustice Alliance and
(52:26):
introduction to public policyand laws, and seeing the
conversations that are being hadthat are so sort of misguided
by opinion and lack of fact orpersonal testimony, I mean like
wait, this is like we need tolike ground this in something
real.
And so that's where I very muchfind my draw to connection or
(52:52):
personal experience, but alsothe data and research that
supports all the policies atwhich we talk about.
None of these are just likeopinions that say like these
sort of things don't happen.
I mean all of which the policiesin which reform is pushed and
addressed is because they lie inlike international fundamental
(53:15):
human rights, or like the datashows that, like our system
sucks and it's failing everyoneRight, like when you spend 60
billion, like in the UnitedStates, a year on a system of
like an 80% failure rate, likethis was any other industry,
like you'd be pulling the plug.
So like we need to sort ofground it and like no,
(53:39):
acknowledge that like this iswrong and there are better ways
and we have other models.
And that's sort of the work Ido with the international
justice exchange in my mostrecent ventures to Norway and
Germany looking at their system.
We have bottles, it's justwe're so grounded in like the
need to maintain what's alwaysbeen and that's a system that
(54:03):
was, you know, sort of that'sgrounded in and fundamentally
driven by the criminalization ofrace, the criminalization of
poverty, the sort of theclassism, the racism that
plagues the system right, whichallows us to cast off certain
people and we've been doing itfor.
Jason (54:23):
So we've been doing it for so long, sorry, we've been
doing it for so long that it'sthat you know, in so many
decades now that it's hard forpeople to even envision, like
you're saying, another, anothersystem, because it's you know,
the first go to is maximumpunishment.
You know, and this and this, ifone person does one thing, then
(54:50):
the response is we have toequal it out by causing them
harm.
Right, we have to punish, right, we have to punish, and that's
just well and we're not evenlooking for equaling anything.
Amber (55:00):
We're looking for complete decimation, like the
proportionality of the responsesis astounding, particularly as
compared to like other responsesthat are possible.
And, brittany, I'm glad thatyou mentioned your exploration
of like other ways and othersystems, because I was really
(55:22):
inspired when I saw theConnecticut Public documentary
of the recent trip to Norway andenjoyed your participation in
that, so we'll definitely throwthat in the show notes.
Could you just briefly talkreally quickly about what that
trip was about?
Brittany (55:43):
Yeah, so about two years ago now I like lose track
of time because some, but soit's about two years now I was
on a panel with the Institute ofMunicipal and Regional Policy
regarding, you know, some dataand policies on youth car theft
as, and so from that connection,I was introduced to the
(56:07):
executive director, andrew Clark, who just just met with me.
Their institute is also out ofUConn and so we were talking
about, you know, we shared.
He was aware of my livedexperience through other work
that I had done, but also I wastrying to talk about, like my
academic aspirations right,because it's really to get to a
point in which you know I canalso like I also have like the
(56:34):
academic credentials to like betaken seriously and heard that
like it's not just the digs roombut like I can ground myself in
in a way at which you know thethose in positions of power
would take seriously.
And so I was reading a whitepaper that they had produced
back in 2021 on the.
(56:57):
It was a white paper oninternational human rights and
the crossroads that Connecticutwas at because, given the
pandemic, we had reached aturning point in which our
system was, we had a very alower prison population.
And so it was like, okay, wecan tell that, like through
COVID, we changed policies, welet people out and we're still
(57:19):
okay, like so we're at it, wecan continue this downward trend
.
Here's like where internationalhuman rights comes to play.
Like we're at this crossroads,how do we sustain this
trajectory of lowering, loweringthe prison rates?
And so I, like I said myinterest is in the intersection
of human rights and the criminallegal system and economics.
(57:42):
Oddly and now you canunderstand that, but not I.
I sort of it was like, yeah,like let's, let's do something
with this.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgonna start reaching out to
people.
And so I started exploringinternational models.
I started reaching out topeople from from Norway and the
Norwegian Correctional System toinquire that we made some
(58:05):
connections with people inNorway the international
director of the NorwegianCorrectional Service we like
explored these conversations,held webinars, and then we're
able to take a delegation fromConnecticut over to Norway to
visit the Norwegian prisons,different parts of their system
etc.
And sort of get that visceralexperience and be able to like
(58:27):
to take sort of these, havethese conversations with
incarcerated people in Norway,because it's one thing to read a
paper that may be a publicationor the correctional department
is putting out about theiragency.
But, like, it's reallyimportant to have the
conversations of people who areincarcerated, no matter like in
the United States and in Norwayand in Germany, right to be able
to say, like, what is yourexperience?
(58:49):
Like, is it what we're reading?
I don't want to sit there andpromote a system at which like
is saying that it's the best,but the people are really
impressed, right, that's notwhat I want to be doing.
And so we were able to go thereand just there was no sort of
barrier until like, who we couldtalk to, anybody passing down
the hall like we could sit andhave a conversation with, and so
there was.
It was great to sort of be ableto have that open access to
(59:12):
their facilities.
And then we went to justrecently, as a continuation of
this our most recent trip inJune was to Germany a new
delegation so this is the chiefstate's attorney, the chief
public defender, executivedirector, the judicial branch to
go over and see their probationservices, their their prison
(59:35):
system as well.
This was all about likesentencing, so a lot of members
of connecticut sentencingcommission went over to germany,
nice, and so we learned abouttheir, their bail system, right,
there's a lot of other piecesoutside of conditions of
confinement that lead to thehigh rates of imprisonment here
in the united states andconnecticut, and that goes into
sentencing, that goes into ourfree trial bail system, all that
(59:56):
stuff that compounds and yeah,so, so, yeah, that's, that's the
work.
We're in the process, myselfand the university of network of
human rights, the institutemunicipal and regional policy,
of updating that white paperwith some lay of the land now
here in connecticut and then, um, you know, still we, if we
(01:00:18):
don't take action now like we,we see like the upward trend
again.
Jason (01:00:21):
So so amber britney knows way too much we could probably
keep yeah, and I'm looking atthe time and I know that we did
have some time constraints today, so can you ask your final
question?
Amber (01:00:36):
sure so.
So, britney, I know that youknow your journey has been long
and winding and I know that evenmyself, even though I've never
been incarcerated, I'm, you know, affected by the system.
Through a family member, Ifound myself like in the story.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to someone who is
(01:01:02):
experiencing something thatconnects with your journey, what
would you tell them as words ofencouragement?
I?
Brittany (01:01:13):
would say, to take themselves seriously and allow
themselves a self a chance.
I would also encourage that,although there may be compounded
guilt and shame for things that, uh, someone has been doing in
their life for a while thatthey're not proud of, there's
(01:01:35):
always a chance to turn itaround, and there's always a
chance to make those thingsright, whether it's directly or
indirectly to others, and makean impact.
I I think that's something thatI very much am driven by is that
, if I was able to do this inwhere I once saw myself, to
(01:02:01):
where I am today, I know thatanyone can do it, and so I would
urge anyone to not castthemselves off and to to to take
themselves seriously enough togive themselves a chance to to
(01:02:23):
sit and say I am worth it and Ican do it, and yeah, it may suck
, and yeah, it's gonna be hard,and yeah, I can't even see how
I'm going to do it or what it'sgoing to lead to, but I just
need to.
I just need to try and takethat first step and then take
the next step, and you know thepieces will fall in line and
(01:02:46):
just trust the process, but tonot give up in in the process of
doing that britney, thank youso much for being with us today.
Amber (01:02:56):
We've covered a lot and we're so thankful for you taking
the time.
Jason, did you have any lastthoughts?
Jason (01:03:03):
I'll just say that you know, britney, hearing you're.
We gave a lot of time at thebeginning of this discussion to
the early trauma in your lifeand the things that you went
through, and then, of course,the whole experience of giving
birth and and separation fromyour child.
We didn't give nearly enoughtime to all the wonderful things
(01:03:25):
that you've done after and whatyou're doing now.
It's incredible.
Your journey is incredible.
You're still young.
You've got a whole life aheadof you with wonderful things.
I hope that you and your familyand everybody just has just
just continues on this positivejourney from here on out.
(01:03:46):
So thank you so much for beinghere, for being so open with us,
and I know it's going to touchmany, many people when they
listen to what you have to saytoday.
Brittany (01:03:57):
So thank you no, thank you all.
What you're doing is isextremely important in that
we're able to open the doorsback up and say, no, there are
human beings inside of there.
Like maybe if you would takethe time to look past what a
headline says, or what the mediasays, or what a prosecutor said
(01:04:18):
, or like what's just put on apiece of paper on, like running
a background check, you wouldsee the human being and you
would see the potential and thenmaybe you could empathize and
give opportunity to and thesepodcasts and these sort of
things are the way in which weneed to do that and give voice,
and in face and in space, todemonstrating that they're all
(01:04:41):
human beings and worthy of youknow, a second chance absolutely
.
Jason (01:04:46):
Thank you, brittany.
Outro Voice (01:04:47):
Until next time, amber we'll see you next time
you've been listening toamplified voices, a podcast
listening the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
(01:05:08):
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplified voices dot show.
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Amber (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm Amber, your co-host, hereto reintroduce our conversation
with guest Brittany Lamar.
This is part two of a two-partstory.
If you have not listened topart one, please go to season
four, episode seven, of thepodcast.
(00:54):
When we left off with Brittany,she had just found out that she
was going to have a child andwould soon be sentenced.
Join us as we delve furtherinto her experience with the
criminal legal system and all ofthe things that she has done
since to help change thenarrative.
Brittany (01:15):
I struggled.
During that time.
I got into a relationship withwhat they tell you not to do
with somebody in rehab, and sowell, I was on the bracelet.
And so when I got out of thatsix-month program and I was
living in an apartment with thatperson for six months up until
my sentencing with the braceleton and it was I found out I was
(01:45):
pregnant during that time, andthen by the time I was sentenced
for the crimes that hadoccurred a year and a half
before then, I was seven monthspregnant, and so at my
sentencing, when I got sentencedto four and a half years, I was
seven months pregnant.
Jason (02:02):
So you were between seven and eight months when you went,
when you were incarcerated, howlong was the sentence?
Brittany (02:10):
Four and a half years.
Jason (02:11):
Four and a half years.
So you know on the day you'rewalking in that this baby is
coming out while you're behindbars.
Amber (02:20):
Right, and so was there any attempt at mitigation
because of that.
Jason (02:27):
Yeah, they could have delayed it for a few months,
right, correct.
Brittany (02:30):
My lawyer tried that he also.
We went in and my mom and Ivery much had an expectation and
my child's father at the timethat this would maybe be a year
and a half at most.
And then when the judge wasable to give up to a maximum of
five years in the plea deal andmy attorney had, you know, we
(02:56):
all I thought that this wasmaybe a year and a half.
And then in my head, afterlearning out some things, I'm
like OK, maybe if I do half ofthat, that's nine months.
So I was still trying to likecome to terms with like, ok, how
old will my child be?
Ok, only six months, only eightmonths, right.
And then I just sort of blackedout when I heard four and a
(03:17):
half years, like I just stoppedhearing anything else.
The judge said I mean I camehome not even knowing how much
probation I had or restitution,because I just I heard that and
I heard nothing else.
Amber (03:33):
So I just want to take a minute to acknowledge you know
what you just said and say thatI am really sorry that that
happened to you, because, ofcourse, as a mother myself, I
can't even begin to imagine.
You know what that meant foryou, and so I know that we're
(03:55):
getting to a part of your storythat can be a little bit painful
.
So I want you to take the spacethat you need and only talk
about whatever it is that you'dlike to talk about.
But I do want to highlight, forthe people who are listening to
this conversation, sort of theharshness of a system that could
(04:21):
have done things differently,regardless of what somebody has
or hasn't done.
When we think about humanityand what real accountability
looks like.
For me it doesn't look like anyof this.
Again, I just want to say thatI'm really sorry that, because I
(04:43):
can only imagine, like thinkingit would be one thing being
there after everything that youhad already been through.
Jason (04:52):
Amber, I have a question for you.
Amber (04:54):
Yeah.
Jason (04:55):
What kind of society takes a woman who's seven and a
half months pregnant, when anaverage, you know, typically you
deliver it nine months and youhave a month and a half to go?
Who's been out in the community, even if it's in an ankle?
We could talk about the GPSmonitoring all that, you know
(05:15):
another time.
But what type of a societytakes a woman who's about to
give birth and puts her behindbars?
Amber (05:30):
One that is monstrous.
I don't know that.
That's the only question I mean, that's the only answer that I
have.
So, brittany, did you have anyindication of like how that
would go?
Did you know anything aboutlike what health care looks like
in the system?
Brittany (05:50):
Oh, no, I had no idea about what I was.
You know what was happening tome from down out and so I don't
know what point to go here Icould talk about from my entry
(06:15):
into the facility, if that makessense.
And so, and I would also notethat for all of my courts there
was nobody else at the courtwith me my mother, as much as
she's always been someone alwaysthere.
(06:35):
I would not be where I am todaywithout my mother, but I can
imagine for her and who she islike, this wasn't something that
she could be there for orsupport or any of those things.
So she was very hands-off but asupport system.
So I also had nobody there theday of sentencing.
You know my friend who I'vebeen speaking about.
(07:00):
My mom had dropped me off at thecourthouse.
My friend had met me there andso we sort of hung out he was
using at that time.
I went into court by myself.
So this was also a very bigshock to my mom, but I hadn't
talked to her.
I don't know when she found out.
This was very much differentthan what we had planned and
(07:24):
expected and the room that wasset up for the baby and those
sorts of things.
So my goal then was to justtalk to my mom, and so that was
hard.
I got the one phone call when Igot there, but I called my mom.
(07:48):
But then it's like, ok, whatcan you call my child's father
at the time?
Or have you talked to my lawyer?
Who do you talk to for thosethree minutes?
And so I talked to her.
I went again through that wholeprocess.
You get put into the medicalunit.
Jason (08:11):
What month was it?
Brittany (08:13):
October, October, 31st Halloween.
Jason (08:17):
So it's at least.
At least it's not as hot as thehottest days of the year right
going in.
Okay, so I.
Amber (08:26):
Gas for a minute, because October 31st was also the same
day of my husband's arraignment,so it's a.
It's a.
It's a different kind ofHalloween in our lives.
Yeah, for sure.
Jason (08:41):
So, so you're in, and I mean, was it were you able to
make any friends?
Were there people who had beenthrough what you're going
through that could Talk with you?
Is there, was there any type ofyou know, any type of support
available for you?
Or were you once?
You, once you're inside, was itvery much an isolating,
continues to be an isolatingexperience?
Brittany (09:04):
It definitely continues to be an isolating
experience, but I think that'salso just part of who I am and
I'm not one to go out and Tryand befriend people or talk to
people.
I don't know where I am andI've always sort of been one who
internalizes.
So this was just sort of moreof what has always been for me
(09:25):
is just sort of this internaljourney and I Sort of wasn't
interested in what anyone elsehad to say, because this was my
life.
I had to figure out and youknow you'll hear people had
stories this way and that wayand you don't know what's.
I just knew my Journey anddidn't want to hear about the
(09:49):
horror stories of other peoplewho were pregnant.
Experience Like that wasn'tsomething that was helpful to me
.
So, right, I often limited myexposure to other people because
I, just as much as I, as muchas like you know, maybe it was
their way of expressing likeempathy or understanding, you
know, and I wasn't the only onethere was.
Eventually, you know, I am putin like the, you know regular
(10:13):
housing units, like the samemattress, same food, all that
sort of stuff.
So there's nothing sort ofspecialized there.
I don't know at what point.
Right, because you know, Idon't have direct access to a A
doctor, so you just wait andhope that a doctor reaches out
to you for like an appointmentor something which you know ends
(10:33):
up happening, I believe, amonth in and so.
But there was a at the time, aPre.
It was like a, a group forbefore pregnancy.
So there was about eight of usin there in a group with one
social worker and but you, wegot a pamphlet on like what
(10:59):
giving birth is like, because Iagain, these aren't
conversations I've ever had withanyone, so I don't know like
what to expect.
So we get a pamphlet and it'slike about birth and so I try
and like read this in my unitand figure out, like Physically,
what's gonna happen to me, likewhat to expect, like the
process, those sorts of things.
(11:19):
But the group Consisted of a lotof women who were still just
trying to figure out where theirkids were gonna go, and that's
hard, I know my situation was.
I was Very lucky to be able toplan out, to have, you know, my
mom be there, like you have to.
(11:41):
What it's very tricky in which,like my mom, while I'm in the
hospital for the three days thatyou get Needs to be at court
and given, like the, theguardianship and those sorts of
things within the three daysright or there's.
You know these like DCFinvolvement and the child goes
somewhere and then to my mom.
So it was very like a timelysituation in which, like we
(12:06):
needed to time it but I hadsomebody I would.
I would say at least half ofthose women that was not the
case in that group.
So the time of that group verymuch consisted on Support for
them, this one social workertrying to figure it out.
Jason (12:22):
Yes, so I mean you're.
What you're describing, though,is that, in your particular
case, that was one stressor thatwas taken off.
I mean, you were, you knew youwere gonna be parted from your
baby, right, but but your babywas gonna go to to your, to your
mother, and be taken care of inyour family.
You know, this is somethingthat you had, but what you're
(12:42):
describing is that there arewomen that that don't have that
privilege, right, and that theythey not only are they in the
situation that you were in,where they're about to Get birth
, but they also have no ideawhat's gonna happen, whether
they're gonna be separatedforever from their child and
that they'll never get to seethe baby ever again.
(13:02):
Because I was actually.
Isn't that a thing where, ifyou you know, if you're if
you're incarcerated for certainlength of time and the babies
Not with you, you lose parentalrights?
Brittany (13:14):
So that's yeah.
There's a yeah In getting intothat.
Once you know you're sort ofput into like the postpartum
group.
I mean the story just get worseafter someone gives birth.
You know it's six months andthe mom still has no idea where
the kids are and nobody's gottenin contact with somebody.
(13:35):
It's yeah.
I mean, the compounded traumaof that experience is, you know,
entirely opposite of you knowhow someone should be put in a
place to succeed when they leaveSix, six months from their
release.
After going through all of this, I don't think it's reasonable
(13:58):
to expect someone to come outand Be better off For sure right
for sure.
Jason (14:05):
So we just read that was.
I'm sorry.
Amber (14:07):
That's all right.
So so, brittany, you describedsort of being in those groups
and you know, any person who hasgone through the process of
childbirth knows that it's a.
It's a process where,particularly the first time it
happens to you you're, you don'tknow what to expect in Just out
(14:28):
in the world, right, if youhaven't talked about it or you
haven't had support services.
So the idea that somebody wouldbe handed a pamphlet while you
know Having already lost theirfreedom and be surrounded by
people that you know for support, with one social worker, that
that just seems Reallyoverwhelming.
(14:49):
And then, on the flip side, oneof the things that I found as a
woman after giving birth to myfirst child was I wish I would
have known what happens after,what happens to my body after,
what happens to my emotionsafter, and that in a regular
situation is challenging, muchless in a situation like you
(15:14):
found yourself in.
So you, my point is how wereyou feeling like with all of
those things, sort of coalescingand converging?
Brittany (15:28):
You know, amber, I, I still.
You know, there's like thatdriving force in me, that's like
, and I hear my mother's voice.
It's like just keep putting onefoot in front of the other.
So I don't know that I wassitting and feeling these things
, are thinking about thesethings is like, alright, just
this is what you have to do.
It's you.
(15:48):
You had to.
What choice did you?
Yeah, and so that has it's.
You know it's a double-edgedsword, but that's sort of how I
got Through that, you know.
But my time in there I was, youknow, I, yeah, it was very use.
(16:12):
It's visible and obvious.
The way that correctionsofficers had treated other
incarcerated people where anysort of issues that were brought
up or I'm not feeling well or Ithink I'm having contractions,
those sort of things wherethey're not taken seriously and
(16:33):
because you're a woman, you'redramatic or you're exaggerating,
like you're just trying to getout of your unit, and I mean,
you see, those sort of scoffedat issues led to the lawsuit
which changed the laws here inConnecticut in 2018, in which
the you know, officers didn'ttake seriously someone's
(16:56):
concerns that they were havingcontractions, which led to the
individual giving birth andtheir cell, and so I was very
you know, it was visible to melike, and I also don't trust the
system, didn't trust any of thepeople there because of how
dehumanizing at which theenvironment is.
Like you know, these people arenot your allies.
(17:17):
So I remember to not speak toany officer if I did not have to
, and so I.
That was also something whereI'm like, okay, how do I know if
I'm having contractions and atwhat point, like don't I very
much did not want to have to sayanything if I wasn't sure, and
which led me to being, you know,very dilated by the time that I
(17:40):
said anything, because in themiddle of the night, because I
wanted to be sure, I was likecounting it for hours before I
said anything and I think, wouldalso help do is I was like a
week overdue.
So when the officer asked when Iwas due, I guess to sort of
make their own decision as towhether I was in contractions
clearly they were a clinicalindividual that needed to make
(18:02):
that decision.
Maybe that's what also pushedthe need on getting me over to
the medical unit.
But there were times, you know,where, if there were fights or
there was issues, there was.
You know, it's a prison facility, not everyone gets along.
And so those sort of loudthings where I'm like, you know,
in it, if I was home, right, Iwouldn't be putting myself in
situations where there's chaos,where there's a stress inducing
(18:23):
anxiety, and so I was also awareof, like, the effects that that
would have on my child andbeing a mother where, like,
that's not right, the idealsituation to to be in, and so
those sort of things would also,you know, compound the stress
of like, how do I ensure becauseat that point I'm like, okay,
how do I just make sure that mychild does not grow up with any
(18:47):
sort of like internal, likeissues because of me, like, how
can I ensure that from likebirth there he's on a path to
success?
And I know it starts in thewomb and I know it starts with,
like prenatal health and thosesort of things.
And I'm like, am I already, youknow, am I already fucking up
here?
(19:07):
And I can't control it, I can'tdo better, I can't remove
myself from the situation.
Jason (19:13):
So you had, you had a layer of guilt, that to yourself
, a lot of pressure on yourselfbecause of a situation that you
couldn't control at that point.
And then you started describing, before you're having these
contractions, you you in anormal circumstance you would
have said, hey, I think I'mpregnant, let's go to the
hospital, or you know, and getit checked out.
(19:34):
You're you're saying, well, Ijust have to really be sure.
So you've probably endured alittle extra pain along the way
just because of thecircumstances.
And then finally it gets to thepoint where you can't ignore it
anymore and the officer saysthis, it's time, so what?
So a couple questions, like canwe talk a little bit about the
(19:54):
experience?
And also, given your your yourpast with with substance abuse,
what's what about in terms ofthings that they could
potentially give you to easesome of your discomfort and pain
?
How does what's going on?
You know where?
Where are you physically whenyou give birth?
(20:14):
Do they take you to a hospital?
Is it in the prison?
Like, give us a picture of thatexperience?
Brittany (20:22):
Yeah.
So I go over to the medicalunit.
They, you know, a firm right.
You are in labor.
So at that point I'm shackled,I am put in a van and taken over
to the hospital.
Jason (20:36):
And the van that you're and just to pause you there.
So we had had Tracy Bernardi onthe talking about going to the
medical facility in the bus.
You called it a van, but butbeing you're saying shackled,
but being shackled in in anunsafe cage as you're being
(20:56):
driven over, I mean that wasyours because at the same time
frame had to have been the sameexperience.
Brittany (21:02):
Okay yeah, you're pregnant.
Yeah, and so it really suckedevery like bump we hit and not
being able to like cushionmyself because my hands are
shackled and so I'm just sort oflike sitting there like taking
everything.
It was a very uncomfortableride and then you're quick.
No, and then you have the, theshame of being pushed into a
(21:24):
hospital with shackles on withyou know you're out in public
and now you're just thispregnant person.
Like what does society think of?
Like how horrible does somebodyhave to be to you know what
horrible person to be a motherwith, like you know, in shackles
?
Like you must be like a monster, and so those are.
(21:45):
You know, that sort of shameand ostracization like that you
feel in a situation like that.
And so I only have, like this,one corrections officer next to
me who I hadn't seen before.
Jason (21:57):
but man or woman?
Brittany (21:59):
a woman, and so at that point they give the the
whatever fluids.
I'm not quite sure.
I know I needed to do what youdo at a hospital where you walk,
or maybe I was walking around,maybe that happened after, I'm
not sure, but I know for acouple hours I was trying to do
(22:20):
it without the epidural becauseat that point I just I wanted
nothing to do with anything thatwould ever lead me to to a
relapse or like trigger thatpart of me.
I was very aware of like how myaddictive behavior and that
tendency and how it was witheverything.
It was like that with withsoccer, where it was never good
(22:41):
enough and I did it 1000% andit's just to I am, and I have to
accept that and so, butnonetheless, two hours in, I did
, I agreed to that, but Dura,and I guess within minutes, like
my heart rate dropped, thebaby's heart rate dropped, and
then all of a sudden I'm beingtold I need to have an emergency
(23:02):
C section.
I had never read anything inthat pamphlet about a C section,
so I have no idea what thatmeans.
I'm extremely squeamish ingeneral, so I like start getting
very ill and I just rememberlike my body shaking, like on
the bed, and they're like here,you have to sign this paper so
we can do the surgery.
And all I wanted to do was liketalk to my mom, who's a doctor,
(23:25):
and be like what does this mean?
Like what's going to happen tome?
Like what's the C section?
Like what is what am I signing?
And so I signed X.
I have nobody to like sort ofconsult on this.
And I remember getting, as I'mabout to be taken to the, to the
(23:46):
operating room, the correctionsofficer says like I have to go
with her, and the doctors likewell, no, this is a operating
room like we, you can't be inthere.
And so there was like a littleback and forth and then I was
able to go to the operating roomwithout the corrections officer
, or maybe I don't know whereshe was, but I know at that
point I was very scared and justso I just start like it's gonna
(24:15):
get a little crap I just waslike shaking and vomiting during
the surgery.
I wish they had to like put meout, I guess.
No, no, during the surgery,during the C section, I was not
shuffled because I think it wasjust it all had to happen.
But when I woke up I was so, Iremember, because I was just
(24:39):
getting like so ill and I was inmy own head.
I mean, this was just a levelof anxiety that I just like was
physically ill from.
I remember hearing my son cry,and then I was put out.
And then when I woke up in theroom and I guess that's just
(24:59):
sort of the turning point ofwhere I am today and I wake up
and I see a corrections officerin the corner of a room and I
hear a baby like in the next tome and I see a shackle on my
(25:22):
foot and I just like look.
I just remember like looking upand being like what the fuck am
I supposed to do?
Like where am I?
Like?
What do I do now?
Like what am I supposed to dowith this kid?
Like I don't, there's nothing Ican do here.
And I remember like very vividly, like that's the bottom, that
(25:44):
it hit where it's like youeither give up and like die
because I can't get worse, oryou do like whatever it takes to
to never come here again, tonever be in a position like this
again.
And that's when I started doinglike the my journey of like
(26:05):
deep inquiry.
Okay, so, like what does thisstem from?
Like what is what?
What drove me Like how do I fixthese things?
That led to this?
Because the surface level, Itried that surface level stuff
I'm just like not using.
And so that's when, like mythree years long of connection
to Buddhism, connection tohigher power, connection to like
I said that that sort of deepexploration of of self, where I
(26:32):
was just so vested into intomyself, getting to understand
myself, like after acceptance ofwhat my situation was, and and
a lot of the, the depressionthat I guess you know should be
assumed that comes with it, thatsituation, a point you know.
(26:57):
Upon return back to thefacility, it's just like okay,
so like, let's start doing thework.
I started doing the steps withmy sponsor.
I started reading on Buddhism,meditating every morning,
getting getting you know,working there, attending all the
groups, and it was really avery independent journey in
which I a discovery of self andwhich I had never done before,
(27:21):
which is why I said, when youasked what I was interested in,
I had no interest, I didn't knowmyself, and this was, you know,
the time at which I like knewit was like get to know yourself
or get comfortable with, likecoming back, like in and out of
prison.
Jason (27:38):
It seems like the year it seems like the year before you
were incarcerated you alreadywere starting the work that
you're describing and then, andthen this was a reaffirming,
like the moment that you becameyou know, your child was born it
.
You just had this almost like aha epiphany, like this is my
(28:00):
life now and things, things gotreal for you.
Brittany (28:04):
Like now I've got a reality that this punch me in
the face and it was like but itwas affirming.
Jason (28:12):
It just said this is what we're going to do now.
Brittany (28:15):
Yeah, I mean you have no, because really I saw no
other option.
It's like or just like don'tlive because, like it can't get
worse from here.
I mean, you know, it was just.
Jason (28:25):
So we're going to talk a little bit about some of the
things that that led to and whatyou're doing now, but before we
get there, I want to just stayfor a moment.
I mean, first of all, I want tofind out, like, did you hold
the baby?
And that sort of thing.
But before we get there, youknow, just a comment to
reemphasize where we just were,I mean I was drawn into the
(28:48):
story.
I mean I felt like I was in theroom with you and I saw Amber's
face.
I know that she was in the roomwith you.
So I hope that when people arelistening, that they get that
experience like that they'rewith you, that they were there.
It's just a very emotional story.
You know, we've told thenumbers.
We've had a number of guests onover the years now and this is,
(29:11):
you know it's, it's, it's oneof the most emotional stories
that we've heard.
You know there's nothing likegiving birth and the story that
you told about, about, aboutbeing in that room and what you
went through and and and howscared you must have been with
the C section.
I mean it's just such apowerful moment and experience
(29:34):
that you've had and and, and.
There's some things that youcould do that are so good with
that right.
Just just telling your story.
So thank you for being here,absolutely.
You know we'll thank you againat the end.
I know it's very difficult andemotional to go through and that
and you and you were living itagain.
So I want to acknowledge that.
So you're, you're, you're nowyou're, you're reshackled.
(29:57):
You wake up from the C section,the babies in the room.
How quickly do they hand youyour, is it you said, son, the
hand you your son.
Brittany (30:06):
Yeah yeah.
I sort of I would say likewithin the hour, so I have no
words with the office, I toldyou I have no interest in being
acquainted, or I'm, yeah, I haveno interest in befriending any
(30:27):
of these people.
And so the nurse comes in andwas changing the baby's diaper
and asked if I wanted to holdhim or handed him to me.
I think she just handed him tome and I just didn't know what
to do with that.
I'm, I know I'm going back toprison in three days, sure.
(31:00):
So I tried, and I also it was alot of work to allow myself to
to be vulnerable, to like thatnatural connection to my son.
One, because, like my wallswere up to something I already
knew I was getting disconnectedfrom, sure, but two, also, not
(31:23):
having experience and emotionalconnection.
Like that, growing up was likehow do I now do it differently,
like with my son?
How do I?
I need to show affection, hasnever been affectionate person.
How do I go out of my comfortzone and be a different person
and have a differentrelationship with my son?
So, like these are feelingsthat aren't unknown to him.
(31:48):
And so there was it was a verysort of complex a lot of
emotions going on there and so,yeah, I was able to feed him and
hold him, but I would say,having been from a surgery, I
(32:10):
couldn't move much.
I still had these things on mylegs that I kept them from
swelling, or these compressionthings right in the shackle,
which I was still trying tounderstand.
Like I can't sit up and walk,why am I shackled to a bed?
I can't even sit up, I can'teven, like, move my body
(32:31):
sideways.
It's like I'm not runninganywhere.
Jason (32:35):
The why.
The why is for humiliation hasnothing to do with security.
Brittany (32:39):
Yeah, no, there was, there's no, you know.
And so so there were times atwhich I had to ask for help to
get my son back into the, but Iwould just hold on to it till
the nurse came in and asked them, you know, for for help or to
feed.
I did not sleep those entirethree days.
(33:01):
I just didn't want to miss aminute, and so I would.
Yeah, I just spent as muchquality time just holding him
and looking at him, and and then, like the third day, my mom was
able to come the last day.
Jason (33:27):
Did you get extra time because it was a C-section.
Brittany (33:30):
If you had, if you had had a there was one extra day
only because of, like I told you, that excursion in the
operating room where I lost alot of blood because of what my
body was doing while I'mco-opened, so where I needed to
stay an extra day before.
I was like okay to go back.
(33:50):
So I did get three full daysinstead of like the two, given a
regular delivery, and so my momwas able to come that day,
which, also, having those threedays and because I went on I
believe it was a Friday orSaturday it's like okay, now we
have one day where our court isopen, so, like my mom can get
(34:12):
the custody and everything thatshe needs while I'm still in the
hospital.
So that worked out.
And so then it was like thetime to go back and you're very
much made to just hand yourchild over to strangers.
(34:34):
They were.
I handed them over to thenurses and the CO's just push
you up.
Amber (34:43):
And so you knew at that point that you know it was going
to be some time before you sawyour child again, and so that
you're going in the same sort oftransport van back to the
facility.
Brittany (35:01):
Yeah.
Jason (35:01):
Yeah, without the baby, and you've had the baby with you
for nine months and now youdon't.
Amber (35:10):
Yeah.
Jason (35:11):
And you must have felt that separation.
Brittany (35:16):
Yeah, I mean my arms felt like a million pounds, like
once he was out of them.
I give it's just like the wholethe emptiness was like that
weight was insurmountable.
Amber (35:35):
Thank you so much for sharing to so people can
understand the humanity that iserased, ignored behind the walls
, and I know that you know thisis a difficult process and we're
so thankful for for you sharingthis with us.
You talked a little bit aboutthis internal decision making
(36:04):
and how you had started thatjourney before you were
incarcerated after the birth ofyour son.
You know are really thinkingabout this more and I think what
I heard you say was this was ajourney that you embarked upon,
with decisions that you made,because a lot of people say you
know things like well, that'swhat that person needed was
(36:26):
prison.
So can you sort of address thatline of thinking?
Brittany (36:32):
Yeah, and 100%, because prisons are not a place
of healing.
They are only a place thatexasperates that, the trauma and
the pain and the barriers tosomeone ever successfully
leading a life at which theywould like to live and that is
beneficial to society, to afamily, to a child.
(36:55):
So, 100%, a prison is not aplace at which someone is not a
place or someone learns tothrive.
I would say that what wasneeded for me was like the space
(37:17):
to one like feel like it wasokay, at which to to sit and
take time for myself.
The system chose a prisonfacility, but that's something
that can be provided to someonein any sort of form, at which
(37:42):
they're not feeling thepressures of survival at the
time.
So what a prison provides is ismeals, a bed and a roof, with
with all dehumanization andstrip of identity that comes
with it and all the collateralconsequences.
(38:03):
At the end, I mean it's, it'snot the place, but what was sort
of always a little bit of abarrier was like the external
forces of you know, needing,needing to pay bills and needing
to like just survive, and soyou never fully, I never fully,
(38:25):
allowed myself the space atwhich to just sit with myself
and not feel like I needed to domore.
And that's also, like I said,the double-edged sword of
growing up, feeling like I needto be so much more.
So I always felt guilty if Isaid I did anything for myself
or or with myself.
And so having a space at which,like I, anyone can, can recover
(38:51):
and sit and take the timewithout feeling the, the and
that's because all of that wasjust erased from like being
possible for me but no I.
The conditions of confinementand end of a prison facility I
(39:12):
know for for myself, hinderedmany things.
It clearly still has a lot ofimpact on the pain that I carry
day to day and so and that'swait.
I wanna.
Jason (39:28):
I wanna stay there for a second.
I mean so the.
The one thing that's reallyimportant that you just said is
that that the, that thepunishment inflicted by the
state is not just the time thatthey say it is, that you're that
that you know, you you have,you're never gonna get back that
(39:50):
time that you lost with yourson.
You, you have this and, and I'msure there's some sort of PTSD,
certain interactions withdifferent when you encounter
different situations out in theworld.
Plus, you know all the othercollateral consequences, but the
.
But it's really important foreverybody to understand that the
(40:11):
, that the punishment, when yousay, you know, don't do the
crime if you can't do the time,the time is a lot more than the
time that people think it is,and that's what you're starting
to get at.
Brittany (40:25):
Yeah, I mean 100% it.
It has had a permanent effecton the bond that's developed
between a mother and child inthose very critical first years
where, like that's where, likethe baby learns who to trust
(40:45):
their connection right, andthere's very much, you see that,
with that natural sort of thatnatural connection between my
mom and my son and that's, youknow, and we're in a very good
place now.
But you can, his grandma is,you know, everything to him, and
(41:08):
so this is those developmentalyears that doesn't, you can't
change that, that creates likethe building blocks of
somebody's life, and so that'sjust, you know, in sort of that
connection that I also wasn'table to develop.
You know, I have a amazing momwho would come up twice a week
(41:31):
and bring him to see him, and Iam very lucky to have had that
and create those times.
I would the shirts that he wouldcome up, like when he was a
baby, and throw up during the.
I mean I would sleep with thoseshirts for like weeks and to be
able to like smell him, likehop in, and then the shirts that
I would wear, like I would, youknow, send to the visiting room
(41:52):
.
My mom was able to take themhome and she'd take them in the
crib with them, like those sortof things to try and build,
maintain, and I had a supportivemom in trying to do that.
But no, it's very much changed.
Yeah, the punishment is on sortof how the forever relationship
(42:14):
between me and myself.
Amber (42:17):
And so, brittany, I know that you know we talked about
the spark that was created.
You did a lot of internal work,and so what was the time that
you ended up spending?
And then I would really I knowthat you have done a lot of
(42:38):
really amazing work, so I reallywould like to make sure,
because you know of limited timethat we talk about that.
So let's sort of talk about howmuch time did you spend and
then move on to sort of whathappens next.
Brittany (42:54):
Right I did.
I found out that the time thatI had to do one of my burglary
charges due to the amount ofmoney is considered a violent
charge.
Thus I had to do 85% of my time, not 50.
So although there was nophysical violence, there was no
interaction among people it wasa charge that I had to do 85% of
(43:17):
my time for, which also becamea shock to me during my
incarceration and something Iwasn't aware of until I was
incarcerated and somebody withthe same charge notified me and
then confirmation from theadministrative department.
So that added a whole anotheryear and a half on to the time
that I was expecting to do.
(43:38):
So I ended up doing three and ahalf years about, but I had to
do the remainder of my time in ahalfway house.
So the only way for me tobecause the way that the system
is set up, my halfway house datewas before my parole day and so
(44:03):
I my only chance was to go to ahalfway house.
My parole date was way tooclose to my end of sentence that
I.
The only way for me to get outsooner was to go to a halfway
house.
I went to a halfway house andhad to finish.
Like I said, because of justhow close my parole date was to
my end of sentence, I just hadto finish the remainder of my
(44:26):
time in the halfway house, whichwas a little over a year.
In that time I worked multiplejobs.
I had done higher education inprison and so I had also made
connections for years, writingcorrespondence letters to
universities and departments ofareas which I found interesting
to me it's human rights so gotconnected to Yukon prior to my
(44:48):
release for a couple of years atthe Human Rights Institute and
then so, once I got into thehalfway house, I connected with
those people at which I was onlydoing written correspondence
and they helped me formulate myapplication to Yukon when I got
home and I was in the halfwayhouse, so that following
semester I started attendingYukon.
(45:10):
I completed my bachelor's, Iwas working several jobs just
doing anything to make money andsave money while I was in the
halfway house, so serving tables, and I was a personal trainer
at a gym and I had found my wayback into exercise and at the
gym while incarcerated, to tryto, like you know, write that
(45:34):
elegantly on my resume.
I had to get a personaltraining job when I got home.
But I worked in a gym for acouple of years, right For the
state of Connecticut and so, andthen the last worked a couple
of those jobs like staining logcabins, doing really anything,
just working as many hours as Icould, saving as much money as I
(45:56):
could.
So then I, ultimately I camehome.
I it took a lot to get anapartment.
I had to sit there and getletters of recommendations.
You know, explain myself again,right?
I mean I've already had to dothis in court, but now, for
everything I have to do in life,I have to explain and recount
(46:19):
why I should be, why I amqualified or why I am worthy of
any of the things I'm asking for, why I'm worth even my
waitressing job, you know I'm,why I shouldn't be judged or
being an addict in the past,like how can they trust me?
Now you know how you're notgonna steal from all these
things that I have to.
Every single time getting intocollege, I mean I have to check
(46:41):
the box and say, yeah, I'm this,but like this is who I am, I
had to sit there and relive mystory again for all these
strangers.
And so you know, when is itenough?
Like when?
When have you told yourselfenough, or like you don't have
to do it anymore.
It's not a thing when you'reformerly incarcerated, no matter
what, like you always have tojustify your worthiness of
(47:02):
anything of opportunity, ofcredibility, right.
So it took a lot where I got astudio apartment I mean I had a
year and a half of denials rightas a planning and a halfway
house, because that happens.
I mean it's impossible to getapartment with a criminal
conviction and so nonetheless Ifind one.
The idea was to just really beas close to my mom as possible.
(47:24):
So I was like a seven minutedrive from then because my mom
had been, you know, doing some.
She had to get to work, to havemore.
So like she was doing a lot ofthings to just like manage my
son.
So now I was able to go over inthe morning at 5.30, she could
go to work instead of herdropping off with my sisters.
Like the village was raisingright Son.
(47:44):
So now I was close enough to beable to do these things and be
there, and so he would wake upand I, you know, be at my mom's
house.
So I was slowly just likeinserting myself into his daily
life, bringing him to school,these sort of things that I
thought would be difficult formy mom to allow trust for, but
(48:05):
she very much just saw who I wasin my actions.
I know my mom's not in theworld, right, is they?
Very much, don't?
Words are sort of taken with agrain of salt.
So it's all through action thatI needed to just prove, prove
who I was.
And so, within that time ofpursuing education, I got
(48:29):
accepted into Yale Law School'sAccess to Law Program.
And that's the first time andthis was through a professor
from one of my higher educationand prison courses had reached
out and said hey, why don't youapply for this?
And I was not expecting to getin.
I got interviewed and I got inand like I the whole like year
(48:52):
and a half I mean you guys areaware that I have like I don't
even know how many.
I think there's like seven, Idon't know what actually I kind
of charged with.
I know right now, in producinglike my part of application and
getting my rap sheet, I'm like,okay, it's part of the plea deal
, like okay, this didn't go,like I had no idea what actually
happened in court, as I toldyou, and so nonetheless, I get,
(49:14):
like you're aware, like no, likeyou can do it, you can go to
law school.
And I'm like, okay, thesepeople believe, like in me, like
I'm gonna do it.
You know, at doors I keep, Ijust keep working hard and I
keep leaning into education.
I keep finding like these, youknow, these couple of people
(49:35):
that believe in me.
I'm gonna lean on it and I'mgonna do my best and I'm going
to, you know, really show up formyself and prove to myself like
these are things and then proveto the world that people with
criminal convictions are nottheir past, they're not their
worst stake and that anybodycould change.
(49:56):
Just give in like an open door,just give someone an opportunity
, right, and so that's a, youknow, ultimately went through
that process with the Access toLaw Fellowship, got into Yukon
Law.
I started my masters in theprocess.
So I'm finishing my masters inpublic policy and going into my
(50:19):
second year of law school atYukon Law.
And then, through the process,you know, continued my
professional experience rightnow managing Connecticut's
juvenile justice policy andoversight committee at the state
legislature.
The assistant director of theNational Prison Debate League, a
visiting fellow at Yale LawSchool in the Shell Center for
(50:41):
International Human Rights and Ican't keep up.
Jason (50:46):
I mean, I'm like I'm like , my mind is like, wow, like.
Amber (50:51):
I can't keep up either.
Jason (50:52):
Here's what we'll do you give us all these things later
and we'll put it in the shownotes.
Amber (50:56):
Yeah.
Jason (50:57):
You'll have the whole resume for the.
You know this is Brittany'sthis who's who of everything
she's done.
Yeah.
Amber (51:04):
So, brittany, I know you've done some things at the
legislature in terms of publictestimony, things like that.
Was that something that, likeyou, knew how to do, or how did
you get into that?
Brittany (51:19):
No, so that was not something I knew how to do.
You know being, you know beingultimately stripped of all sort
of fundamental rights whileyou're incarcerated.
I wasn't attuned to how topromote them or uphold them for
(51:40):
myself.
So, upon my release, and givenmy personal journey that I've
told you, it was very much apassion of mine to ensure that
the system changes, in whichhumanity is upheld, human rights
are preserved and no womanwho's incarcerated, who's going
(52:06):
to go through what I've gonethrough, and so I tell my story
in a way that I don't want thisto ever happen to somebody else.
And so, given the opportunitywith the ACLU of Connecticut and
the tools of the ConnecticutJustice Alliance and
(52:26):
introduction to public policyand laws, and seeing the
conversations that are being hadthat are so sort of misguided
by opinion and lack of fact orpersonal testimony, I mean like
wait, this is like we need tolike ground this in something
real.
And so that's where I very muchfind my draw to connection or
(52:52):
personal experience, but alsothe data and research that
supports all the policies atwhich we talk about.
None of these are just likeopinions that say like these
sort of things don't happen.
I mean all of which the policiesin which reform is pushed and
addressed is because they lie inlike international fundamental
(53:15):
human rights, or like the datashows that, like our system
sucks and it's failing everyoneRight, like when you spend 60
billion, like in the UnitedStates, a year on a system of
like an 80% failure rate, likethis was any other industry,
like you'd be pulling the plug.
So like we need to sort ofground it and like no,
(53:39):
acknowledge that like this iswrong and there are better ways
and we have other models.
And that's sort of the work Ido with the international
justice exchange in my mostrecent ventures to Norway and
Germany looking at their system.
We have bottles, it's justwe're so grounded in like the
need to maintain what's alwaysbeen and that's a system that
(54:03):
was, you know, sort of that'sgrounded in and fundamentally
driven by the criminalization ofrace, the criminalization of
poverty, the sort of theclassism, the racism that
plagues the system right, whichallows us to cast off certain
people and we've been doing itfor.
Jason (54:23):
So we've been doing it for so long, sorry, we've been
doing it for so long that it'sthat you know, in so many
decades now that it's hard forpeople to even envision, like
you're saying, another, anothersystem, because it's you know,
the first go to is maximumpunishment.
You know, and this and this, ifone person does one thing, then
(54:50):
the response is we have toequal it out by causing them
harm.
Right, we have to punish, right, we have to punish, and that's
just well and we're not evenlooking for equaling anything.
Amber (55:00):
We're looking for complete decimation, like the
proportionality of the responsesis astounding, particularly as
compared to like other responsesthat are possible.
And, brittany, I'm glad thatyou mentioned your exploration
of like other ways and othersystems, because I was really
(55:22):
inspired when I saw theConnecticut Public documentary
of the recent trip to Norway andenjoyed your participation in
that, so we'll definitely throwthat in the show notes.
Could you just briefly talkreally quickly about what that
trip was about?
Brittany (55:43):
Yeah, so about two years ago now I like lose track
of time because some, but soit's about two years now I was
on a panel with the Institute ofMunicipal and Regional Policy
regarding, you know, some dataand policies on youth car theft
as, and so from that connection,I was introduced to the
(56:07):
executive director, andrew Clark, who just just met with me.
Their institute is also out ofUConn and so we were talking
about, you know, we shared.
He was aware of my livedexperience through other work
that I had done, but also I wastrying to talk about, like my
academic aspirations right,because it's really to get to a
point in which you know I canalso like I also have like the
(56:34):
academic credentials to like betaken seriously and heard that
like it's not just the digs roombut like I can ground myself in
in a way at which you know thethose in positions of power
would take seriously.
And so I was reading a whitepaper that they had produced
back in 2021 on the.
(56:57):
It was a white paper oninternational human rights and
the crossroads that Connecticutwas at because, given the
pandemic, we had reached aturning point in which our
system was, we had a very alower prison population.
And so it was like, okay, wecan tell that, like through
COVID, we changed policies, welet people out and we're still
(57:19):
okay, like so we're at it, wecan continue this downward trend
.
Here's like where internationalhuman rights comes to play.
Like we're at this crossroads,how do we sustain this
trajectory of lowering, loweringthe prison rates?
And so I, like I said myinterest is in the intersection
of human rights and the criminallegal system and economics.
(57:42):
Oddly and now you canunderstand that, but not I.
I sort of it was like, yeah,like let's, let's do something
with this.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgonna start reaching out to
people.
And so I started exploringinternational models.
I started reaching out topeople from from Norway and the
Norwegian Correctional System toinquire that we made some
(58:05):
connections with people inNorway the international
director of the NorwegianCorrectional Service we like
explored these conversations,held webinars, and then we're
able to take a delegation fromConnecticut over to Norway to
visit the Norwegian prisons,different parts of their system
etc.
And sort of get that visceralexperience and be able to like
(58:27):
to take sort of these, havethese conversations with
incarcerated people in Norway,because it's one thing to read a
paper that may be a publicationor the correctional department
is putting out about theiragency.
But, like, it's reallyimportant to have the
conversations of people who areincarcerated, no matter like in
the United States and in Norwayand in Germany, right to be able
to say, like, what is yourexperience?
(58:49):
Like, is it what we're reading?
I don't want to sit there andpromote a system at which like
is saying that it's the best,but the people are really
impressed, right, that's notwhat I want to be doing.
And so we were able to go thereand just there was no sort of
barrier until like, who we couldtalk to, anybody passing down
the hall like we could sit andhave a conversation with, and so
there was.
It was great to sort of be ableto have that open access to
(59:12):
their facilities.
And then we went to justrecently, as a continuation of
this our most recent trip inJune was to Germany a new
delegation so this is the chiefstate's attorney, the chief
public defender, executivedirector, the judicial branch to
go over and see their probationservices, their their prison
(59:35):
system as well.
This was all about likesentencing, so a lot of members
of connecticut sentencingcommission went over to germany,
nice, and so we learned abouttheir, their bail system, right,
there's a lot of other piecesoutside of conditions of
confinement that lead to thehigh rates of imprisonment here
in the united states andconnecticut, and that goes into
sentencing, that goes into ourfree trial bail system, all that
(59:56):
stuff that compounds and yeah,so, so, yeah, that's, that's the
work.
We're in the process, myselfand the university of network of
human rights, the institutemunicipal and regional policy,
of updating that white paperwith some lay of the land now
here in connecticut and then, um, you know, still we, if we
(01:00:18):
don't take action now like we,we see like the upward trend
again.
Jason (01:00:21):
So so amber britney knows way too much we could probably
keep yeah, and I'm looking atthe time and I know that we did
have some time constraints today, so can you ask your final
question?
Amber (01:00:36):
sure so.
So, britney, I know that youknow your journey has been long
and winding and I know that evenmyself, even though I've never
been incarcerated, I'm, you know, affected by the system.
Through a family member, Ifound myself like in the story.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to someone who is
(01:01:02):
experiencing something thatconnects with your journey, what
would you tell them as words ofencouragement?
I?
Brittany (01:01:13):
would say, to take themselves seriously and allow
themselves a self a chance.
I would also encourage that,although there may be compounded
guilt and shame for things that, uh, someone has been doing in
their life for a while thatthey're not proud of, there's
(01:01:35):
always a chance to turn itaround, and there's always a
chance to make those thingsright, whether it's directly or
indirectly to others, and makean impact.
I I think that's something thatI very much am driven by is that
, if I was able to do this inwhere I once saw myself, to
(01:02:01):
where I am today, I know thatanyone can do it, and so I would
urge anyone to not castthemselves off and to to to take
themselves seriously enough togive themselves a chance to to
(01:02:23):
sit and say I am worth it and Ican do it, and yeah, it may suck
, and yeah, it's gonna be hard,and yeah, I can't even see how
I'm going to do it or what it'sgoing to lead to, but I just
need to.
I just need to try and takethat first step and then take
the next step, and you know thepieces will fall in line and
(01:02:46):
just trust the process, but tonot give up in in the process of
doing that britney, thank youso much for being with us today.
Amber (01:02:56):
We've covered a lot and we're so thankful for you taking
the time.
Jason, did you have any lastthoughts?
Jason (01:03:03):
I'll just say that you know, britney, hearing you're.
We gave a lot of time at thebeginning of this discussion to
the early trauma in your lifeand the things that you went
through, and then, of course,the whole experience of giving
birth and and separation fromyour child.
We didn't give nearly enoughtime to all the wonderful things
(01:03:25):
that you've done after and whatyou're doing now.
It's incredible.
Your journey is incredible.
You're still young.
You've got a whole life aheadof you with wonderful things.
I hope that you and your familyand everybody just has just
just continues on this positivejourney from here on out.
(01:03:46):
So thank you so much for beinghere, for being so open with us,
and I know it's going to touchmany, many people when they
listen to what you have to saytoday.
Brittany (01:03:57):
So thank you no, thank you all.
What you're doing is isextremely important in that
we're able to open the doorsback up and say, no, there are
human beings inside of there.
Like maybe if you would takethe time to look past what a
headline says, or what the mediasays, or what a prosecutor said
(01:04:18):
, or like what's just put on apiece of paper on, like running
a background check, you wouldsee the human being and you
would see the potential and thenmaybe you could empathize and
give opportunity to and thesepodcasts and these sort of
things are the way in which weneed to do that and give voice,
and in face and in space, todemonstrating that they're all
(01:04:41):
human beings and worthy of youknow, a second chance absolutely
.
Jason (01:04:46):
Thank you, brittany.
Outro Voice (01:04:47):
Until next time, amber we'll see you next time
you've been listening toamplified voices, a podcast
listening the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
(01:05:08):
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplified voices dot show.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.