Cierra Cobb: On A Mission for Justice Season 4 - Episode 6

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In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber & Jason talk with Cierra Cobb, a paralegal, activist, and advocate for incarcerated people and their families. From her heart of resilience and strength, Cierra takes us on a poignant journey of survival and action.

In a world grappling with a global pandemic, Cierra reconnects and marries Jeffrey, an old friend who has been falsely convicted of a crime and incarcerated.  Jeffrey’s troubling capital case, paired with the lack of a substantial defense strategy from his legal representation, sheds light on the imbalance, injustice, and bureaucracy within the American criminal legal system. His story illustrates the gravity of plea bargaining and the oft-ignored challenges posed by both systemic racism and the underfunding of public defense offices.

Learn about her work as an advocate and prison jail coordinator with Emancipate NC and her podcast, The Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show. Cierra's story is a rallying call to all - to remain steadfast, champion what you believe in, and never yield in the face of adversity. 

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Episode Transcript

Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences

(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.

Jason (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, jason, here withmy co-host, amber.
Good morning, amber.

Amber (00:39):
Good morning Jason.

Jason (00:41):
And today we have Cierra, Hi Cierra.

Cierra (00:44):
Hi, good morning Amber and Jason.

Jason (00:46):
And Sierra.
We're going to start with thequestion we've been asking all
our guests, and that is couldyou tell us a little bit about
your life before you entered thecriminal legal system and what
brought you into it?

Cierra (00:57):
So I started young.
I had kids.
I had my first son at the ageof 16.
I went through a lot ofdomestic violence, abuse, child
abuse.
My mom's husband used to beatus and she really didn't I don't
know if she knew or she wasjust in denial and so that kind
of started my adventures with, Iguess, abuse and it kind of

(01:20):
continued on throughout my life.
So I had my first son at 16.

Jason (01:25):
So where did you grow up?

Cierra (01:26):
I grew up in North Carolina, in Greensboro, north
Carolina.

Jason (01:29):
In North Carolina.
So you were there and you saidyour mother's husband, and so
how old were you when he enteredthe picture?

Cierra (01:39):
Three.
I was three and my brotherswere, I think, 10 and 15 at the
time when she met him.

Jason (01:47):
Three, 10 and 15.
And you said two brothers,you're the baby right and you're
the only girl.
The only girl.
What was that like at threeyears old, being the only girl
with two older brothers?

Cierra (02:00):
I loved it.
I mean, I was the girl, so theyounger girl, the only girl, so
they watched after me and kindof took me under their wing a
lot, because our fathers wasn'taround.
So it was great having brothers.

Amber (02:13):
OK, so I never had a brother.
I always wished I had.

Cierra (02:18):
See.

Amber (02:18):
I was opposite.

Cierra (02:19):
I wish I had a sister and I had brothers.

Amber (02:20):
Yeah, you know, the grass is always greener.

Jason (02:24):
So this guy, he comes into the picture when you're
three, so you really don'tremember before him, no, and it
was OK.
And then so, growing up, you'rethree, then you're going into
the school system and there wasabuse going on this whole time.

Cierra (02:42):
Yeah, and so we actually had to move because we lived in
Greensboro and when she met himhe had his own house.
So she moved to a small towncalled Reefle.
So we had to pick up everythingand move to a whole different
county and district and start adifferent school.
And in Reefle it's a real ruralarea.
So we went to a school that wasup the street and the school

(03:05):
that my brothers and them wentto.
We were really segregated backthen, so one school was for
majority white and then theother school was for majority
black and they finallyeventually rezoned it and kind
of switched up the district sothey could kind of intermingle
the cultures together.
But it was a different change.
Being in going from a city, abig city like Greensboro, to a

(03:27):
rural county like RockinghamCounty.
It was a lot, it was different.

Amber (03:31):
So what happens?

Cierra (03:32):
next.
So I grow up and I go to thepredominantly white school and I
can't say that I never facedany blatant racism.
That was just blatantly in myface.
A lot of my friends were white,so I really, in my opinion,
didn't face any racism and so Iwent to school.
I wasn't really a school person, to be honest.

(03:54):
I didn't like school, so Iskipped school a lot.
I started high school and I waslike, mom, I don't want to go to
this high school.
I don't know what it was aboutRockingham County schools.
I didn't like their schoolsystem period, so she took me
out and then she home schooledme for a while and then I just
still wasn't.
School was just not my thing.
And so I ended up gettingpregnant at 15 and had my first

(04:15):
son and I started working.
I had my first job at CVS andso after that I became an adult.
I moved out with my kid'sfather and started working and
just being an adult, and soafter that I had my next son.
I got pregnant at 17.
And that was unexpected.
I wasn't really planning onhaving another child that early,

(04:35):
that quick, because I wasalready young.

Jason (04:38):
So now you've got the two children and you're with the
father of the children, ok, ok.

Cierra (04:45):
So I moved out with him.
We moved to a city calledCernsville, which is not too far
from Winston-Salem, which isanother big city, and domestic
violence continued there withhim, and so I went back and
forth between his house and mymom's house for a while.
I guess it was just because Ididn't want to you know, I was
18 at that time by that time andI didn't want to go.

(05:06):
I didn't want to be with my momor be at her house, because me
and our husband didn't get along.
You know, due to what Iexperienced with him, Wow.

Jason (05:13):
So you've got to make a.
I mean, at this point, you'vegot two kids, you've got a
stepfather who's abusive andyou're with a man who's abusive,
and so you're where's?
There's no safe place for you.

Cierra (05:26):
There was no safe place for me at all.
I mean by the time I had 18,the abuse of my mom's husband
stopped.
That stopped maybe when I gotabout nine or 10, when I got old
enough to start defendingmyself.
That's when that stopped.
But then it's like I kind ofwent back into it with my kids.
Father.

Jason (05:43):
I'm sorry to hear that.

Amber (05:44):
So the idea that I mean what I just heard you say was I
had to start defending myself atnine years old.
And I mean right right, butlike I finally was able to
defend myself at nine years oldand you know when I think about
you know I have a 10 year oldson right now and I just that,

(06:05):
that feels heartbreaking and soI'm really sorry you experienced
that.

Cierra (06:09):
Yeah, it was hard, and so I was working as an adult,
going between my mom's house andthen his house, and then
eventually I was able to get myown apartment.
I got my own apartment and Ididn't stay there alone because
I didn't like I guess I didn'tlike being by myself.
So I really didn't stay in thatapartment long.
So I was still in between hishouse and mine and my mom's

(06:30):
house and then I moved to adifferent apartment in the same
city as my mom.

Jason (06:34):
Well, I mean, face it, raising kids is hard.

Cierra (06:38):
Especially not, that's good.

Jason (06:41):
And doing it alone is super hard.
So, yeah, got it.
Ok, yep.
So what did you do?

Cierra (06:50):
So then after that I met a guy.
I wasn't with my baby's fatheranymore, but I met a guy and he
had just got out of prison, likeliterally just got out of
prison.
I actually met him in the samecomplex that my kid's father
stayed in and he just got out ofprison from doing like a five
year bid for a common lawrobbery of a doctor from Baptist

(07:11):
that's one of our major, majorhospitals in Winston.
He had robbed the doctor andthey gave him a common law
robbery since they didn't findany weapons.
And so we got together and wewere together for about four
years and he was in and out ofthe court system.
He didn't go back to prisonuntil after we had broke up, but
he was in and out of the courtsystem.

(07:31):
I didn't experience any abuse inthat relationship.
But there was one time where wegot into it.
He threw me down the steps andI just thought I just knew I was
dead.
I just knew it because I wasblacking out, like going in and
out of consciousness, and I hadbusted my head open and so my
mom had came and took me to thehospital.
Force police were called and Ididn't press any charges because

(07:53):
I just court system has neverbeen an answer to me.
So I didn't press any charges.
I went down to the magistrate'soffice and talked to the
magistrate's and they ended upletting him go and dismissing
the charges.
And so I was with him for awhile and he just couldn't get
himself together.
I guess just what he had beenthrough in his lifetime His mom
was on drugs, pretty bad, and sohe had to be a parent at a

(08:16):
young age and so I guess he justcouldn't get over that trauma,
you know, just being traumatizedby his mom being on drugs,
really bad and she was still ondrugs when we had got together
and we were in our I think I waslike 24 by then and he was a
year older than me, so we justcouldn't get it together.
So I ended up believing him andthen finally getting my high

(08:37):
school diploma, because I didn'tfinish high school.
So I finally got my high schooldiploma at like 25 and then
started college.

Jason (08:44):
Congratulations.

Cierra (08:45):
Thank you to kind of better for my kids.
All right, you know a betterlife, so 25, you're back.

Jason (08:53):
you're back or you finished.
You finished high school, whichis not easy to be a parent of
two kids supporting them andalso going to school, so that's
a huge accomplishment.
And then you decide I'm goingto keep going, I'm going to go
to college, which is huge.
Like, how are you making endsmeet as working, going to school

(09:15):
and making sure there's food onthe table for these two
children?

Cierra (09:20):
Well, I was working.
I had quite a few jobs.
I worked as a pharmacy tech ata place called Ride Aid for a
while, so that was pretty goodmoney.
But I had to go to collegebecause I experienced
homelessness a few times, lightsbeing cut off when I was with
my kids father and with thatlast guy I was talking about, we
experienced homelessness.

(09:40):
I mean, the kids wasn't, theywere with their grandmother,
they wasn't with us.
But just experiencing that Iwas like, oh no, I can't.
You know, I can't go throughthat and let alone bring up two
boys in that situation.
So after I lost everythingbecause I literally lost
everything behind this guy, likehouse, car, job, I mean like I
had to start from zero and startmy way back up.

(10:02):
And that is what gave me thestrength to be like OK, I need
to go back and get my highschool diploma, I need to go get
a college education because Idon't want to struggle, I don't
want my kids to struggle.
So that's what pushed me to godo that.

Jason (10:14):
Fantastic, so so, but you were able to do it.
And how long did it take to getthe college degree?

Cierra (10:21):
So it took me about six years to get it all together.

Jason (10:25):
I mean, that's given that you're working and raising kids
.
Six years is actually fast.

Amber (10:30):
Yeah, that's really good.
And so in your family was therea history of education being
important, or no, my mom didn'tfinish school.

Cierra (10:44):
My father went to.
I think he did like one year atMoorehouse College.
I actually went to school formedical office administration.
I wanted to do the billing andcoding from home because I mean
you make good money and youdon't have to work around people
.
So I went for that and then inbetween time, and that's not
easy.

Jason (11:00):
I mean medical coding stuff is not easy, Definitely
not easy.

Cierra (11:04):
Medical office administration is really not
easy, because that means you'reactually going to be running a
whole medical office or hospitalor something of that nature.

Amber (11:12):
Yeah, that's what my sister does.
It's not, it's not easy at all.

Cierra (11:16):
So in between time I actually had my last son and,
just FYI, I have two sons withautism.
My oldest one is autistic andthen my youngest one is autistic
and it runs in my family.
I have a brother that'sautistic and two nephews, so it
actually runs in our family.
So I had my last one while Iwas still in school.
So I was pregnant and going toschool and having birth in the
middle of a semester of I thinkit was maybe my last semester of

(11:40):
medical office administrationand I had my first Like right in
the exam, like you're takingthe exam and you go into labor.

Jason (11:45):
Yeah, oh, my goodness.

Cierra (11:47):
And then I was in the hospital for another three weeks
because I had complications andthen he had John's really bad
case of John is so he was in thehospital for like three or four
weeks after I had him.
So that was a lot trying to doschool and a hospital bed on the
laptop.
And you know, at that time theychanged the whole birth in
thing where the baby had to bein the room 24 hours.

(12:10):
Right, you had to do the wholeskin to skin thing and
breastfeeding.
So it was a lot emotionally,mentally and physically, but I
got through it.

Amber (12:19):
It sounds like you were pretty determined yeah.

Cierra (12:22):
I was, I mean, I guess, just by everything that I have
been through in my life, I justdidn't want to.
You know, I wanted to bedifferent.
I didn't want to just go downthe wrong road, I guess because
I had kids, young, and theydepended.
I mean, I was their providerand they depended on me, so I
had to be a good role model forthem.

Jason (12:41):
Good, so you get your.
Did you eventually get thedegree?

Cierra (12:44):
Mm-hmm, I got it, yep.

Jason (12:46):
And then yeah.

Cierra (12:48):
I met.
I was with my kid, my youngestkid's father, and so we ended up
having a.
We got married and we ended uphaving an abusive relationship
as well.
But I was with him for sixyears and we finally split
because I just couldn't takethat anymore.
It was just too long of youknow being abused, and so I left
him.
And how I got in the criminaljustice system was I reconnected

(13:13):
with my husband I'm currentlywith now, who's currently
incarcerated.
We knew each other at a very,very young age, about 14.
We knew each other and datedfor a while.

Jason (13:22):
So 14, so okay, you met.
Is your husband?
Is your husband black Mm-hmm?
Did you meet him in the whiteschool?

Cierra (13:31):
No, actually met him on a website called Black Planet
back then.
I don't know if you ever justkind of like MySpace or
something like that.
That's how I met him.

Jason (13:39):
No, tell us about Black Planet.

Amber (13:41):
I don't think I've ever heard of this.
You haven't.

Cierra (13:44):
No, black Planet was a social media space for, I guess,
people of color, and so that'show we met.
Like I had a page.
It's kind of like it remindsyou of MySpace is what I would
say it was.

Amber (13:55):
So you were pioneers, because that's what everybody
does now.
Yeah, right, so you werepioneers in the dating space.

Cierra (14:03):
Yeah, and so we met on the internet and he lived in.
He was in Greensboro at thattime and I was in Reedsville,
but I had brothers that werecool so they would go take me to
see him.
Nice, they were older and so,yeah, we dated for a while and
he ended up the foster mom thathe was with ended up getting
really sick where she couldn'ttake care of him no more.

(14:25):
So at that time I don't thinkhe knew he was adopted, but he
found out months later that hewas, once she got sick and the
state had to let them know thatthey had to find another
caregiver for him.
So her granddaughter took overhim and she really didn't want
that responsibility.
So she had told the judge,given back to the state, and
that was the moment and timethat he found out that he was

(14:47):
actually adopted and startedreally finding out about his
self.
And so we lost contact becausehe had to go into group homes
and so we lost contact for years.

Jason (14:56):
Can we say your husband's name?

Cierra (14:58):
Jeffrey Cobb yeah.

Jason (14:59):
Jeffrey.
Okay, so, jeffrey.
So you knew Jeffrey when he was14.
He had a difficult childhood,getting bounced around a little
bit through the system, right,that's what you're describing.
And you lost touch with him fora little while and then you
described some of therelationships that were

(15:21):
difficult, that you had beenthrough.
So when the two of youreconnected, you were ready to
meet him again.
You're ready to see him again,and so how did you reconnect?

Cierra (15:30):
So it was crazy because I had basically was just
transitioning from that abusivemarriage that I was in before
and his cousin had hit me up onFacebook because I was still
friends with his cousin onFacebook.
And he had hit me up onFacebook and was like hey, do
you remember Jeffrey?
And I'm like yeah, and he'slike well, he needs some support
.
Can I give him your number?
And I said yeah, which I hadalready knew where Jeffrey was

(15:51):
because his case was all overthe local news in North Carolina
about what happened.
So I kind of followed the casefor a while and then I kind of
fell off the case.
But that's how we reconnectedand so it was he incarcerated at
the time.

Amber (16:07):
Yes, he was incarcerated, and so, did you visit, did you
communicate via letters?

Cierra (16:13):
So this was during the middle.
Well, when we first started, itwasn't COVID, this was December
2019.
Covid came around I mean what?
January of 2020.
And so, by the time he had sentme the visitation paper, the
day that I got approved, whichwas, I think, in March, that's
when they stopped all visits.
Oh wow, they had a bill ofCOVID.

(16:33):
Wow.

Amber (16:36):
So making things as hard as possible sort of continues.

Jason (16:40):
Yes, so you just basically restarted this
relationship as COVID washitting the world and of course.
So how close were you to him atthe beginning of COVID?
It's really you had thatfriendship from before, but it
was just rekindling at thatpoint, right.

Cierra (17:00):
Well, yeah, but it felt like, I don't know, the first
time we talked, it felt like thetimes that we had when we were
14, it's like we didn't miss abeat.
And that was the part Like itjust felt so natural and you've
been yeah, and you've matured inthat time and been through a
lot.

Jason (17:17):
So it's a different when you're reconnecting with
somebody where it almost feelslike home right from childhood
in a positive way and you've got.
So there's a comfort to thatand you.
But you also have maturity nowof knowing what you don't want
right and things that you'vebeen through.
So I could see where that wouldbe really positive.

(17:38):
And now you're, and now you getto go through COVID where
everybody's isolated and lockeddown and worried about what's
going on inside of the prisons.
Is that so?
So what's going on for you?

Cierra (17:51):
So for one he was three hours away and he was in at that
time.
He was in a closed custodyfacility, which is your max
facility that you could be in,and so we had to build our
relationship through the phonebecause, you know, visitation
was gone completely for thefirst two and a half years of
our relationship.
So we had to build and then alot of times we had to build it

(18:12):
through letters because by himbeing in closed custody he was
locked down for 20, at first itwas 23 hours a day.
He came out for an hour andthen they finally switched it
and it went to 22 hours a dayand so we had two hours out, but
he would.
They would let him out Likethey would let the tears out at
different times.
So we had different times thatwe would talk and it would only

(18:32):
be like an hour because you knowyou got so many people that's
coming out, they're trying totake a shower, eat and make
phone calls.
So it was a line.
So that was really rough atfirst because I was very
vulnerable at that time.

Amber (18:45):
When you were communicating via the phone.
What did the cost of that looklike?

Cierra (18:51):
So the cost.
So I think for for me I thinkit's like almost $2 or $3 when I
would put money on my end,which would be GTO that we use.
So I would put the at first.
I was putting all the money onmy account.
So he would just call me like aprepaid call and so it.
I would put maybe $20 on thereand so we would go through maybe

(19:15):
like three or maybe three orfour phone calls.
So it wasn't that expensivelike it is now that you know
he's in medium custody and wetalk a lot.
But it was.
It was still quite expensive.
Just anything withincarceration is expensive, I
don't care what it is.

Amber (19:29):
Right right.

Jason (19:31):
Jeffrey has been incarcerated for how long Since?

Cierra (19:34):
2015.
2015.

Jason (19:36):
2015.
It's now 2023.
And how many years does he have?

Cierra (19:41):
They gave him a 25 or 31 year sentence for crime.
He's falsely accused of thecrime.

Jason (19:49):
And this is there possibility that he will get out
early.

Cierra (19:54):
If we could get some help yeah.

Amber (19:58):
In your state.
What sort of relief isavailable in terms of
commutations?
Pardon, you know, good time.
All of that and from your face.
Let's unpack that a little bit.

Cierra (20:10):
So we do have commutation and we have pardons,
but they're very hard to getthis governor that we have now
he does it but he does it on avery slim, slim basis and it's
you know a lot of thesestipulations where it has to be.
You know you haven't.
Basically, you're close to theend of your time and there has
to be like severe, true evidenceof you know that you were

(20:32):
falsely accused of a crime inNorth Carolina.
It's kind of hard to get anytype of relief if you were
falsely accused, just because Iguess from what I have seen is
it's just not enough potencywhen it comes to some of the
legal teams, like you see inother states, that are really

(20:52):
about trying to make sure thatpeople who have been accused of
a crime that they really dig into see why they're saying that
they were falsely accused.
Like you know, when I tell themthat he took a plea, they're
just like, oh well, it's hard toundo a plea and you have to
have this evidence and notsaying, okay, well, let's look
into see if any of his dueprocess rights were violated or

(21:14):
if he had ineffective assistanceof counsel or if there was any
prosecutorial misconduct oranything of that nature or
police misconduct during aninvestigation, like none of that
is, in my opinion, ever soughtout, like I see in other states
like New York and Californialike California is a very big
state that I see that helps alot of people who have claims of

(21:36):
innocence, and so I just feellike that that ball is really
narrow here.
It's not a wide view.
I don't feel like there'senough advocate attorneys who
really want to help people whosaid that they've been
incarcerated for something theydidn't do.
And he's incarcerated for felonymurders.

Amber (21:52):
So and so when you, when you refer to felony murder we've
covered this a couple of timeson our podcast.
So this is whereby somebody whois present during the
commission of a crime is chargedwith the actual act of murder,

(22:13):
even though they may not be theone who committed the act, is
that?
Am I characterizing thatcorrectly?

Cierra (22:18):
Yeah, that's how felony murder works.
But my thing is, when you saypresent, it's like, do you mean
like in the room?

Amber (22:24):
Do you mean like in the area, right, right, or they were
somehow affiliated in thevicinity.
You know, again, I'm not anattorney, but sort of that's my
understanding of this rule.
So there are, you know, peopleacross the country who may be
serving.
There may be three peopleinvolved, right, and one person

(22:47):
actually committed the homicideand that person may get even get
less time, like there are caseswhere people get less time than
the people that were present orwhatever, because what we know
about the system is that itdepends on the judge, the day of
the week, what you look like,how much money you have as to

(23:09):
like how that all pans out.

Cierra (23:11):
And if you've been in the system, if you've been in
out the system a lot and theprosecutor knows who you are.

Amber (23:16):
Right.
Right, that's a whole othersort of component of it, and so
I think that's really important.
One of the things that we seesystem wide right is this it's
very like I don't want to callit easy, but it's pretty easy to

(23:38):
get swept up into the system.
But once you're in there, thedue process that people envision
because they watch law andorder and all of this and this
you know, go in a trial and allof this really is not what
happens in actuality.
So can you talk a little bitabout you know?
I'm just going to throw outsome of the statistics.

(24:00):
Why do 95% of people in ourcountry take plea deals?
Why would like people who don'tunderstand it?

Jason (24:08):
Amber, can I rephrase that a little bit differently?
Yeah, so in terms of Jeffrey'scase, right, because I think
where Amber's going with this is.
We hear people saying well, youknow, I would never take a deal
if I was innocent, right.
So that's where, that's whereAmber is kind of going right.
And so the real question is inthis case, let's, let's break it

(24:30):
down right.
He's sitting there, he's beenaccused of something, he's
probably, you know, been taken,taken into custody, and now he's
sitting there and he's beingadvised by an attorney.
Here's, here are your options.
You either take this deal orand what was the or in his case?

Cierra (24:51):
or you get the death penalty.
So the reason why pause pause.

Amber (24:56):
Well, I mean, I don't know.
It seems like my choice is madeup Pause, death penalty or this
.

Jason (25:02):
Right, so I'm innocent, but there's a chance that
they're going to they're goingto put me to death in a country
where there have been a numberof people who have been put to
death, who are innocent.
So when you ask somebody, yeah,I would never say that I would.
You know, I would fight it, Iwould go forward.

(25:23):
You know, you describe thesituation where Jeffrey came
from the system, right, where hedoesn't have.
I can't imagine that he's.
He's rolling in money forattorneys, right, he's coming
from that system.
He hasn't seen a lot ofpositive things happen in his
life.
He's also not, you know,because of because he had some

(25:45):
experience.
You described him as being inand out of the system.
So he does have a record.
So, as soon as you have, he'snot the you know the perfect
defendant, right?
So he's facing death or takingthe plea deal.
So that's what you're saying,sierra, you're up.

Cierra (26:08):
Okay, so so I'll give you a little bit of background
about Jeffrey.
So he was well, actually wasaccused of a murder, like years
prior, and the differencebetween this murder and the
first murder and second murderFirst murder his grandmother had
knew she was a very bigadvocate inside of the community
and so she knew a specificattorney that would help him.

(26:29):
So she paid the attorney andbefore they even went to court,
all charges was dropped becausethere was no evidence that he
committed the murder.
They were just trying to draghis name into it because of, I
guess, what they heard on thestreet.
And you know, people will justput your name in things when the
police drag you in, becausepolice have a way of getting
people to say certain things, orwhen they hone in on one person

(26:51):
, they have a way of trying toget people to be like, yeah,
that person did it, and soJeffrey was that person.
They thought that he was thisbig gang member who just went
around Greensboro doing all thisheinous stuff.
And so with that one, you know,like I said, he had his grandma
paid the attorney because shewas well known, and that case
was dismissed before he evenwent to court.
Now, with this one.
He had a public defender and,of course, by him having, by

(27:13):
being a capital case, he alsohad outside attorney, but the
main attorney was the publicdefender.
And so the public defender wasbasically like I don't know what
you did to the prosecutor orthe detective, but they have it
out for you.
And he was like you know,basically I don't I don't really
know if he had a strategy orfee.

(27:34):
I don't think he had a strategyof how he was going to help
Jeff, to be honest.
But he was like you know, I'mnot going to trial, all your co
defendants are going to testifyagainst you and, in so many
words, the jury is going to findyou guilty and so you either
have this option of taking this25 year plea or you could go to
trial and get the death penalty.
So he was basically choosingfor him what he thought was

(27:55):
going to happen instead ofactually letting the due process
play out in court.
And so when I went and looked athis, his discovery, to look at
the evidence that they hadagainst him, I've seen literally
it wasn't even circumstantialevidence, like there was no
evidence that said he was eveninside of the house when the
crime took place.
There was no evidence sayingthat he agreed or knew that that

(28:20):
crime was going to take, andactually it wasn't even.
They said it was an arm robberyand a killing and so that's not
even what happened.
There's no evidence of breakingand entering.
It was basically a drug dealgone wrong.
But because of Jeffrey beingwell known to the system, they
thought that he was just thisperson that set it up and so

(28:41):
they were really going for himlike he was the main person they
were going for, saying that heacted in concert and you know he
cohorsted all and.
But there was no evidence, likeall the evidence that I seen.
Even the witnesses were sayingthat.
You know he was outside thewhole time.
You know I think he did was helpup the co defended who was shot
not once but twice and took himto the hospital.

(29:03):
And if you want to come to thehospital, then he would have
died and then that would havebeen another murder charge,
right, right.
So really the only thing he hadwas maybe accessory after his
fact that you really want tocharge him for anything but
being culpable for a murder.
There's no evidence ofculpability.
So his lawyer just sometimes inthe good old boy system here

(29:23):
you have, where they worktogether, and so that's what I'm
really thinking that happenedis in showing just by the
evidence that's what happened.
The attorney was just like,well, whatever him and the da
had together, that's what theywent on, because it wasn't
evidence to show that he wasculpable of that felony murder
at all.

Amber (29:42):
Yeah.
So I think it's reallyimportant that you shared all of
that information, because it isvery complicated to understand
for those who have never, youknow, interacted with the system
.
And when you think about, likehuman interactions and
workplaces right, people whowork within the system are also

(30:05):
people, right.
And so when you have to go intoa courtroom with somebody every
day, there are workplacedynamics just like every other
workplace, and so you see this,you know not, you see this
everywhere.
It's sort of like a feature ofthe system that you know.

(30:27):
You give me this, I'll give youthat I'm not going to rock the
boat in this case, because youknow I'm going against somebody
that I see every day and I needthem for this and that, and so I
think that's important tounderstand.
And then the other thing Iwanted to mention is the amount
of money that we spend onpolicing and prosecutors and

(30:50):
everything that the state has atits disposal, versus what we
spend on public defense is gross.
I mean, I don't have thestatistics in front of me, but
I'll just describe it as gross,so that some of the most amazing
, dedicated people that I knoware public defenders, but they

(31:12):
sometimes just don't have theresource or the time.
Their case loads are very high,and so I just wanted to like
throw that into the conversationas well.

Cierra (31:22):
And that goes back to why a lot of people are forced
to take police.
A lot of people are forced totake a plea because their public
defender does not have theresources that the state has at
their disposal like expertwitnesses and right, really good
private executives that go outand do their job to find your
innocence and even as far asjust even the state turnover

(31:45):
exculpatory evidence that theyknow you have nothing to do with
it.
So it's a lot of factors thatplay into why people are
pleading guilty to a crime thatthey did not commit.

Jason (31:55):
And if you're sitting there and your attorney is
saying, look, here's the deal infront of you and I can't
guarantee you that you're notgoing to get the death penalty,
right, I'm and that's the expertlike who am I?
If I'm the person, if I'mJeffrey, right, who am I to
question the attorney and sayyou have to go out there and

(32:16):
fight for me because I?
I don't, I'm innocent, I'minnocent, right.
And he says to you I don't carewhether you're innocent or not,
what's really matters here iswhat is going to happen in the
system that we have today, andwhat's going to happen to you is
a likelihood.
There's a high probability thatyou are not going to survive,
that you're going to be put todeath, and there's no, there's

(32:37):
no tomorrow if that happens.
Right, I know there is atomorrow and there's.
You know you can go back after,but but the likelihood of you
know you go down a verydifferent path.
If you end up with the deathpenalty, then if you're, if you
get a 25 year sentence.
So it's a horrible, horriblesituation that he was put in.
You know not that that that hehad a choice, that he had to

(33:00):
make and, as we're talking about, you know this is it's not an
isolated case.
This is systemic and and heknows that right going in there,
he knows what has happened toother people and other people
that are in his situation knowswhat has happened to him.
So it's just, it's just, it'sjust horrible all the way around
.

Cierra (33:20):
Yeah, and I think what blew my mind is that Jeffery got
the most time, like even theperson that actually admitted to
shooting the elderly lady gotless time than him and they
claimed it was because thisbased on Jeffery's prior record.
But I've seen people who have aprior record way longer than
his and on some other you knowcharges have gotten less time.
So to me that still wasn't.

(33:41):
It wasn't culpable to me as asto why he got so much time.
But yeah, like sometimes you'rejust you're.
You know you're forced to to bein a situation that you don't
want to be in when you don'thave the correct representation.
And Jeffrey knew his case.
He knew his case like the backof his hand.
I mean, he told his lawyer thatyou know, look, I don't think
you have my best interest atheart and he tried to fire him.

(34:03):
But it's not easy to fire apublic defender either, because
it's a process you have to gothrough and then the judge still
decides whether or not you keepthat attorney or not.
So it's not just like hey, Idon't like the way you're doing.
You know, I don't feel likeyou're doing my case right.
I want to let you go and you gofind another one.
The only way that happens is ifyou pay an attorney.
But if you have a publicdefender, sometimes you're

(34:23):
forced to be stuck with what youhave.
You can't get rid of it, and sohe was forced to be stuck with
that public defender who he hadtold you know, I don't think you
have my best interest at heart,you know.
I know my case.
I just need for you to go inthere and be my voice, be my
advocate, right?

Amber (34:40):
Well, in the truth of the matter is, even when you're
depending on what your yourwealth factor is, I'll just say,
even when you hire a privateattorney, a lot of times you
know you're like $40,000 in your$60,000 in, you got to start
all over again.
You're not getting your moneyback.

Cierra (35:01):
Right.

Amber (35:02):
Right.
So like the process is justreally stacked against the
person.
And you know, a lot of times ifpeople are hiring private
attorneys, it's you know grandmathat mortgage their house.
You know it's like, it's notlike people are just
independently wealthy and theyhave like stuff laying around
you got to choose between bailmoney and like money for the

(35:25):
attorney, and these are reallyreally difficult choices that
people have to make.
So I think that you know wereally explored that, that topic
, in depth.
So so when we're thinking about, like Jeffrey and his situation
, his expectation at this pointis that he's going to be serving

(35:50):
the time that he's been givenunless something changes.
Is that right?
That's correct.
And so you went through COVIDand there was no visitation.
Have visitations resumed orVisitations did resume.

Cierra (36:07):
They resumed, I want to say, last year.
We still had points and timeswhere we would have visitation
on and off, because COVID woulddie down and they would ramp
back up, but for the longest wejust had visitation with no
contact.
When I first started going tosee him, I had to drive three
hours away and then we had 30minutes.
So I would drive three hoursfor 30 minutes, non-contact,

(36:28):
with two big brown tables inbetween us which would make us
six feet apart.
You could barely hear oneanother because you had to wear
a mask.
And we actually got marriedduring COVID as well.
I think we got married out ofAlabama.
For some reason, alabama sawthat it was an opening to get a
lot of people married, and sothey made it to where you could
just apply for your licenseonline and get it notarized and

(36:50):
send it back and the judge woulddeclare you married.
So that's how we got married.

Jason (36:55):
What was the date?

Cierra (36:58):
January 19, 2021 is when we got married 2021.

Jason (37:01):
Okay.

Amber (37:03):
All right.
So that is some kind of story.
I always people I eloped and wewent to the courthouse and
people are like oh yeah, are youever going to have a ceremony
or whatever?
So later on, when we all worktogether and get Jeffrey free,
are you going to have a ceremony?

Cierra (37:23):
Yes, definitely, definitely want to have a
ceremony because, yeah, at firstI was expected to get married
in the prison and I bought adress and everything because I
was like, okay, well, onceprison's open back up, we'll
have a prison wedding.
But I saw that opportunity andI was just like, why wait?
So that's how we got marriedwas through Alabama.

Jason (37:42):
We'll meet somewhere in the middle and have a joint
ceremony.
My wife and I got married inAugust of 2020.
During the pandemic, we changedour plans.
We're going to get married.
Every place was shutting down,so we ended up with a backyard
wedding 15 masked people, allseparated.

Amber (38:01):
Yeah, I mean, it's really really something special, sarah
, that you guys were able to dothat and yeah, so you get
married and now you're likedoing you know, when does your
sort of career path change?

(38:21):
Because I know, you're doingsomething else right now.

Cierra (38:24):
Career path change is as soon as we got together, like
as soon as I heard his story,that is what and I knew nothing
about law in 2019, 2020.
I knew nothing about law, but Idon't know.
It was just something in myheart just was like I can't let
somebody who I know didn'tcommit a crime just sit in
prison for that amount of time,especially when there's evidence

(38:46):
that he didn't do it.
And so that day is when itchanged.
The day that we actuallyreconnected back in 2019 was the
day that it changed.
After that, I began to juststart reaching out, doing
research about his case and thecase laws, and I just started
reaching out to everybody.
That was, you know, in this, inthis realm of life, and that's

(39:08):
how I came across Emancipate,which is funny.
I think I was sending them amessage, because I came across
their page really late onYouTube and I sent Dawn, which
is our executive director, amessage about you know what was
going on with Jeffrey, and shewas like I don't know what
you're talking about, and so Iexplained it to her again.
And then, next thing, I know Istarted going to a few of the

(39:30):
protests that they were havingand met Dawn, and Kerwin is
another guy that I work with andso I just that's how I really
started with Emancipate wasreaching out for Jeff for help,
and so I guess they just saw mypassion and so they hired me on
and they didn't know what I wasgoing to be and they was like,
well, you know, why don't you bean advocate?

(39:51):
And I'm like, yeah, let me dothat.
And so I started being anadvocate and what I do is I'm an
advocate and I just advocatefor people who are wrongfully
convicted pretrial, post trial,helping people get back into
life after incarceration throughreentry.
Back in 2021, I actuallyadvocated for a guy who had the

(40:14):
exact same case as my husband,jeffrey, who was going through
pretrial and they were trying togive him the death penalty with
no evidence of him being at thescene at all, and it was just a
co-defendant saying that he wasthere, because the co-defendant
was forced to say that becausehe had the same background as
Jeffrey was in and out of prison.

Jason (40:31):
Wait, people lie.

Cierra (40:33):
Yeah, people, what?
Yeah, when you're ininterrogation room and you're in
there for hours upon hours uponhours and they keep showing you
this one person, eventuallyyour brain's going to be like
just say yes, so I can leave.
And so that's what happened.
And so the evidence pointedthat he was not there.
But it's just that thatprosecutor had knew him, because

(40:54):
it's a small rural county andthe prosecutor had knew him at
one time, used to be hisattorney, so he kind of knew his
background.
And so, yeah, they were tryingto give him the death penalty
for it was a heinous crime,don't get me wrong.
But he had nothing to do withit.
And so I went to the courthouseevery day.
He was in court, every courtcase he had.
I was there and advocating andtalking to the media, and so we

(41:15):
had a press conference rightbefore they actually was going
to trial, had a press conferenceand just let his family
humanize him and show how he wasjust a human and that he didn't
do this crime.
And so it ended up being thatthey didn't find him guilty on
the capital murder, so he didn'tget the death penalty, and then
they were still going to takehim again for a second degree

(41:35):
murder.
But I just kept advocating andtelling people to you know,
stand up and tell the prosecutorthat that's not.
We're not going to allowsomebody innocent to be put to
death or be put in prison forsomething they didn't do.
So the day before they weregoing to start his second trial,
the prosecutor finally brokedown and gave him a really good
deal, which I don't.
Of course I don't like pleadeals because mine was forced
into one, but the plea deal thathe got he couldn't deny that

(41:59):
because they gave him 14 yearsfor the second degree murder and
then he also had another charge, firearm by felon.
So if he would have gotconvicted of the second degree
murder and the firearm by felon,that could have been life plus
20.
But they end up giving him a 14year deal and by him already
being incarcerated for six yearshe only has to do not.

(42:20):
So you can't really beat that.

Amber (42:22):
I mean Right, and so you're working within a system
that works in the way that itdoes, and so, while we're
struggling to change the system,people need, like the, the most
amount of relief that they canget today, right.
And so the outcome, even thoughit's not ideal of the man
wasn't caged.

(42:42):
It was a more ideal outcomethan you know may have been
possible had you not beenadvocating for him.

Cierra (42:51):
Yeah, he probably could have possibly got the death
penalty and then got life.
So just being able to be avoice and outside voice for him
was is what changed around forhim, and I think about it.
All that they heard about waswhat the media put out, with the
state put out.
Sure, it wasn't what you know.
His family and, of course, hislawyer couldn't talk.

(43:13):
So I was talking for the lawyer, right, and just being able to
humanize him, make people seewhere our system is really
corrupt, and then, you know,they had the news media in there
at his trial so they were ableto see all the false information
that they were trying to put on.
So that was really important,which saved his life then.

Amber (43:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and those are the stories that you
show you when you have to.
Yeah, and I think that youbring up an important point
about media.
And again it comes back toresources, right, because police
departments and the system ingeneral spend a lot of money on,

(43:53):
you know, specialists to putout media press releases that
are framed in a way that ispositive to the system.
And, you know, individualdefendants don't have the luxury
of having that mediaspokesperson who is, you know,
trained in how to navigate it.
So, you're exactly right, youknow you saved, you were a part

(44:18):
of saving that man's life.

Cierra (44:20):
And that's why I think it's important to have holistic
public defenders offices inevery county, because Then that
way it's not all on the publicdefender.
You have a whole team workingwith you, you have an advocate,
you have a social worker, youhave your public defender, you
have your private investigator,and when you have a whole team,
it's easier to Fight for someone.

(44:41):
Because I don't think these well, I think they know, but some of
them, I don't think they reallyknow that you, you are
advocating for this person'slife, you are supposed to be
their advocate, and it takes awhole team, not just one person
who has 30 or 40 or 50 or 200cases that they have to go
through, but it takes an entireteam To advocate for somebody's
innocence, because this, theseare people's lives that we are

(45:03):
just throwing away.
It's not just a piece of trash,these are actually people's
lives that we are throwing away,and so it's very important that
you have a whole team workingwith you, and so, by by his
attorney having me To be able toget out there and speak because
we know most attorneys can'tspeak because they're under gag
orders, and he was under one Iwas able to be that voice and

(45:23):
help paint that other side ofthe picture for Defended, then
for the state.
That's amazing.

Jason (45:30):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, we'll talk in a minute
about, like, how that's affectedyou right in terms of Dealing
with your own trauma andprocessing and how that feels
for you.
But I just want to comment, youknow, when you talk about
somebody getting a nine years isa good outcome and I know in
amber bitch and that's like thebest outcome in the situation,

(45:52):
but it still is so far away fromwhat the outcome should be sure
.
I mean, and let's be honestabout it I mean I you didn't
even mention the race, but I canguess the race of the person in
North Carolina who got the nineyears.
Nine years is a long, long time.
If anybody thinks about wherethey were nine years ago, it's a

(46:15):
lifetime ago and nine yearsfrom now is a lifetime from now.
So, and you're taking peopleout of Of a system and not
putting him in a place wherethey're gonna heal.
You know, every one of thesecases that you've talked about,
I would, I would guarantee hassimilar trauma to what Jeffrey
experienced in his life and hasnever had the opportunity.

(46:38):
These guys have never had theopportunity to heal from that
and we put him into anenvironment that is even worse.
I mean, let's, let's talk aboutfor a second.
You know the fact that it'swhere we're having record heat
right now, and In Texas theydon't have air condition in some
of the prisons and people arebeing cooked alive.
It's beyond Horrific.

(47:00):
Well, I don't know what it'slike in North Carolina prisons.
I can't imagine that it'scomfortable when it gets hot far
from comfortable now.

Cierra (47:10):
The only good thing about it is 2020.
North Carolina did apply for agrant that gave them billions of
dollars to start installing andfixing the AC Units and a lot
of our prisons, but they stillis still a lot of them that
don't have AC, like any of theprisons that Jeff has been in
didn't have AC now, I think theclose custody prison he had did,

(47:33):
but the last two don't have AC,and so we have a lot of people
that are elderly, that aresuffering, and so we are
actually trying to figure outwhat's taking so long, because
if you got the money in 2020,you started, you know, fixing
some prisons in 2020 and 2021,especially 2021, 2022.
We need to know why the rest ofthe prisons aren't fixed Because

(47:54):
actually, the facilities at nowthey actually started
transferring people like threemonths ago because they were
gonna fix the AC, but we stillhave no AC yet and we're not
understanding why.
But it's very miserable becausea lot of our print out, all of
our prisons are old, like I mean, built back in the 1920s, old
like they're.

(48:15):
They're old and they haveasbestos.
They have a last one prison inNorth Carolina who has a lot of
people who have cancer, andwe're trying to look into that,
because I don't think peopleunderstand that prisons are also
an environmental risk andhazard as well, because they're
really old and so that's exactlywhat we're looking at now was
just the environmental effectsthat prisons have on just the

(48:37):
environment and the people thatare living behind the walls
right.

Jason (48:41):
So so if you just follow that Along, you know you take
somebody who's had a traumaticupbringing.
You know in this case we'retalking, you know we've we
started the conversation withsomebody who's innocent.
I don't care if they'reinnocent or guilty.
I mean I, you know, I do carefor you.
But in terms of just in general, we should not be torturing

(49:02):
people in in our name and thenwe put them in these conditions
that you're talking about.
That's the heat, if it you knowyou've got you talked about the
mold you talk about.
And then and then, if they doget sick, we had a guest
recently, Amber this year, whowas talking to us about health.
Yeah, theresa right when Theresatalked about what's going on in

(49:23):
New York when they try toaccess health care, especially
as they're aging.
So I mean, it's justunbelievable to me.
You know, it's 2023 and we dothis to people.
We should be much moreenlightened at this point in our
lives.
And so, again, somebody who'shad this sort of trauma.
And now you torture them and wedon't call it torture, we call

(49:44):
it justice.
But right, but we have to behonest about it, it is torture.
We are torturing people, andpeople who would call themselves
good people Say well, you knowwell, what did they do?
What did they do?
Number one don't do the crimeif you can't do the time.
You know All the cliches thatwe hear and it's heartless and

(50:05):
and you know we have to stand upand scream.
This is not okay.
This is not okay.

Cierra (50:11):
Yeah and was.
And I think what gets me is thefact that the ones that say
that are the ones that becommitting crimes like
Proskatoria misconduct or policemisconduct, like you.
You're like you're committed,but you're committing a crime
too, like you're supposed to beprosecuted for proskatoria
misconduct.
So I think that's what alwaysgets me is they always want to
act like you know.

(50:31):
They're so perfect and they'venever done anything wrong.
Everybody's done somethingwrong, whether you got caught
for it or not.

Jason (50:36):
You've done something wrong, and so yeah, and I would
say that everybody is everybodyhas caused harm.
There's a matter of degrees,right, and you're talking about
caught or not, caught againstthe law, not against the law but
everybody has harmed peopleSometimes.
Sometimes they harm people onpurpose, sometimes it's by
accident, sometimes it's.
You're making the choiceBetween the lesser of two evils

(51:00):
in your mind, right?
So there's all degrees of harm,but how do we react to that?
How do we work as a society tominimize the harm and not just
Magnify it and propel it andkeep it going?
And what we see here in termsof what you're talking about, is
that it's just now.
It's the state that's imposingthese harms that are, that are

(51:20):
so egregious, but we call itjustice and I would argue that
you know state actors.

Amber (51:28):
Whether you're police, whether you're a prosecutor
you're, you know Person workingin a prison, your, whatever
state actor you are, you have ahigher obligation.
Yes not commit crimes becauseof you know.

Jason (51:43):
Like you know, spider-man with great power comes creating
great Responsibility right andAmber, if you're a politician
who's been given the studies andthe facts and you're educated
on it and you still go out thereand perpetuate the myths and do
this thing To torture in thestate's name, you, you're even
creating, in my mind, great Imean that's a even higher level

(52:07):
of complicity and culpability,in my opinion, my humble opinion
, we're all in agreement,shaking our head.
So let me take you back a secondhere.
So we were saying you know,you're doing all this, this work
.
Now you, you've made a careershift.
You're doing a lot of greatwork.
What has that done in terms ofyour PTSD, in terms of your

(52:29):
trauma response?
Is that been?
Do you find that it that it hasexacerbated your, your
reactions, or is it actuallyhelped you in terms of your own
healing journey?

Cierra (52:41):
I'm gonna say a little bit of both.
I think before I actually gotit under control, it exacerbated
it because you're taking onother people's trauma.
You have your own, but you'realso taking on other people's
trauma and so I had to learn howto balance but not get.
I would get burnt out a lot.
And then, once I got burnt out,that's when I could tell like
my PTSD would really amp up andI would have more seizures.

(53:02):
So I had to learn how tobalance it not Take on
everybody's trauma, but alsomake sure I'm healing myself as
I'm taking on their trauma,healing myself at the same
moment, which that could be megoing out to do yoga or go and
do a quick meditation or just besomewhere peaceful for 10 or 15

(53:25):
minutes to get myself back ontrack.
But anytime you're working,especially in this realm of life
, it is very traumatic and youalways have to find a way to
keep yourself balanced but notburn yourself out, because if
you get burnt out then you can'thelp nobody at all in this
situation.
But it also helped me find mypurpose and my passion.

(53:46):
I feel like this is what I'msupposed to do is to stand up
for the voiceless, to helpadvocate and be.
The another thing that I also dois I'm a prison jail
coordinator.
So I am that middle personbetween the people in the prison
and the family so that thefamilies don't have to call and
keep calling and sending emailsbecause we know the correctional

(54:06):
officers and the people on thehigh DAC don't, they don't like
to deal with the families andthey'll tell them anything.
But when you have somebody likeme who knows you know how to
what to say to them and how toget them to respond, that it
takes a lot of stress off thefamily.
So I've also began to do thatbe the prison jail coordinator,
where I am coordinated betweenthe prisons and the families so

(54:29):
that they don't have to dealwith that unpleasant, because
they can be very unpleasant.
If you don't cultivate or knowhow to bring a conversation to
them about something thatthey're doing wrong, then they
will be very, sometimes very,ugly and nasty.
So I've been able to cultivaterelationships really inside.

Amber (54:46):
I mean I, I love that so much, sierra, because I think
about, like, looking back on myown experience and, you know,
just trying to figure out whatthe rules of visitation are.
Or you know, there was asituation where there wasn't
water, where my husband wasincarcerated for like three days
and I'm trying to communicatewith them just to have somebody

(55:09):
be that like sort of you know,sometimes people call them on
Budsman's or call them, you know, advocate or whatever, to be a
go between when you're sooverwhelmed.
That is just amazing.
I love that so much, thank you.

Jason (55:25):
You also doing a podcast.
I know you recently had Amberon yours.
You want to mention somethingabout that?

Cierra (55:31):
Yeah, that's, I'm also our mini hats and emancipate,
I'm also a podcast host.
It's funny because that wasactually my husband's idea.
He was like why don't you comeup with a podcast?
And I'm like, okay, well, whatis it going to be about?
And he was like aboutincarceration.
And so I pitched the idea to mycolleague and she went and heard
his idea and then she justbegan to work on it and so we

(55:53):
kind of we cultivated for aspace for people that are
incarcerated and family membersto have a safe space to tell
what has happened to them, totell what their experience and
why they're in prison, becausewe know that a lot of times that
when things are going on,they're always made out in the
bad light, especially when youhave situations in prison you

(56:14):
know they just didn't happen.
And so just being able to have asafe space for them to tell
what happened to them, why they,why they got to prison, or
telling what's going on inprison to bring more awareness
to everybody, because if youaren't directly or indirectly
impacted, you probably reallydon't know what's going on
inside of anything criminaljustice unless you've been

(56:35):
inside of that system.
So we decided to create a safespace for people to tell their
story because, like I said, alot of people, their side of the
story is told by the state andthe media is not told by them,
and so they're able to telltheir side and hopefully just to
bring awareness and maybe evento get help, for you know what
they're going through.

Jason (56:55):
Hey, that's what we're doing.
Yeah, so like.

Amber (56:57):
This is why it's so exciting because there are
people like yourself here outthere.
You know that really want tocenter the voices of people who
are most directly impacted, andI think we should have 500
podcasts, shows and theater andart and and all of that because

(57:22):
there are so many real lifeimpactful stories to be told.
So that's why I was so pleasedto be on your podcast, to have
you here on ours and I think youknow, uplifting both of those
things and anyone else who'slike in this work.
We're all co struggles toco-strugglers.

(57:45):
I love that word because we'reall struggling and we're doing
it together and the more we lifteach other, the more we all
rise and I just love that.

Jason (57:53):
Have there been any that stood out that you know, in
terms of something you learnedor something that shocked you,
or something that you're thatthat really touched you?

Cierra (58:03):
doing my very first episode I had a guy named Mr
Ron's on there and he wasexplaining to us.
You know just what solitaryconfinement is like.
He was getting a glimpse intowhat a cell is and what your day
is like, and just knowing thatthey're in a room that is big as
a small parking spot, which islike a four by eight, was just

(58:24):
really, I think, compelling, notonly to me but to the audience,
because a lot of people didn'tknow that their cells are that
small.
A lot of people didn't knowthat when they take them out for
wreck time, they actually putthem in dog cages to stand there
for an hour outside.
A lot of people didn't knowthat they have no mental health.
They might have somebody comearound to the trap and be like
are you okay?
No, then they're going to tryto put you in this all white

(58:47):
suit where you can't even move,you have nothing in your room,
and if you say you know no, thenthey just keep going.
So it's you know.
And a lot of people was like Ijust want somebody to talk to.
I just want to talk to somebodybecause I'm in a room all day.
It's white, it's nothing inhere.
I'm in here 22 hours a day, Ican only shower three times a
week, I can't talk to anybody,and so just giving them a true

(59:09):
glimpse inside of what a day ofsolitary confinement is like was
one that really got to me.
And then I did one about a monthago with a guy who was actually
convicted off a junk science.
They said that his DNA was in aglove, that he raped this girl,
but come to find out that wasnot his DNA and the expert DNA

(59:31):
witness that said it was his DNAgot caught lying, and not only
his case but a few other cases.
So it just goes to show you howfar state actors will go to
secure a conviction.
And so he was 17, had neverbeen in trouble, know nothing,
and they grabbed him up likeright before he was about to
graduate and charged him withthis heinous crime.

(59:53):
He's now he's like 25.
And so he actually had to doall the groundwork himself, like
go get stuff retested and he'sstill waiting to get out.
And I think the reason why hegot attention was because he was
a juvenile.
And I think last year yearbefore last North Carolina came
up with the law that it wasunlawful to give a juvenile life
without parole, because that'swhat they gave him, and so that

(01:00:15):
that really that was.
I was like wow, like peoplereally do get convinced.
People think because the statewitnesses they have these state
experts.
Yeah, they're correct, and alot of times they aren't like
there's such thing as junkscience and I don't think people
understand that, and so thatwas another thing.
I think that really got to me.
I'm like wow.

Amber (01:00:35):
I learned so much about, like the humanity that exists
within the system, theincompetence that exists within
the system and the very thinveil of perception of science
that they utilize.
I mean, don't get me started onpolygraphs and treatment, and

(01:00:57):
you know junk science they useto convict people.
That's a whole nother podcast.
But I was equally as surprisedthrough our experience about how
all that all works.
And now I'm definitely goingback and listening to that
podcast, because I haven'tgotten to that one yet.

Cierra (01:01:16):
It was amazing, like I mean I've, I mean I I didn't
know about the junk scienceuntil, like, I really started
getting into Jeff's case andfiguring out that footprints
aren't.
You know, you really can't tellby the footprint or bite mark.

Jason (01:01:28):
Bite marks, blood splatter.

Cierra (01:01:31):
Yeah, blood splatter.
So that's when I really startedgetting into understanding the
science when it comes to thesecourt systems and knowing that
there is junk science, like alot of stuff that they say is
you know a true?
I guess what evident markerthat you were there at that
crime, that you committed thatcrime can be made up.

Amber (01:01:51):
Yeah, it's, it's really, it's astounding.
So, sierra, we're coming sortof to the end of our time
together and we so appreciateyou coming in and sharing your
own story and all the great workthat you're doing.
I'm going to ask sort of myfinal question that again we
have sort of an opening questionand a final question and that

(01:02:15):
is, if you think about, likesomebody who might be at the
beginning of a journey that issimilar to yours and you could
give them one piece of advice,what would that be Stay strong
and don't give up.

Cierra (01:02:31):
Don't stop fighting because you can.
This system can make you feellike, okay, well, just the heck
with it, I'm done.
You know I'm not ever going towin, but stand strong and keep
fighting.
If you're going to stand forsomething, stand for what you
believe in and keep going at it,because eventually you will
knock that wall down.

Amber (01:02:50):
That's awesome.
I love that.
Last thoughts Jason.

Jason (01:02:53):
Well, I just want to.
Yeah, I have a couple thoughts,but first I want to go back to
the junk science.
Joshua Ho, on his podcast theCarceration Nation, interviewed
M Chris Fabricant back in 2022,who wrote junk science and the
American criminal justice system.

Cierra (01:03:11):
Got that book.

Jason (01:03:12):
You have it Good.

Cierra (01:03:13):
All right, she's like, that is I have like a very thumb
through version of that book.
I bought that book and I evenshot out Chris on it.
Yes, a wonderful book.

Jason (01:03:23):
Great.
So my question I guess my lastquestion for you before I go on
is there anything that we didn'tcover that you want to make
sure we get in, or are we good?

Cierra (01:03:32):
I think we're good.
I think we've coveredeverything.
If you want to followEmancipate and the great things
that we are doing, I work for anonprofit call Emancipate and
see, we do a lot with the prisonsystem, police brutality.
Ben Crump has been on a few ofour cases here lately where the
police have killed a couple ofpeople.
So we work with Ben Crump'soffice on that and we do a lot

(01:03:54):
just around the community.
We're trying to bring a mentalhealth group called the heart
group, which actually, insteadof police responding to mental
health issues, the heart teamresponds, and they've had like a
very good outcome.
There's been a couple ofstories nationwide done about
the heart team, so we're tryingto get that a little bit.
Well, probably in every countyif we can.

(01:04:15):
Durham is probably our modeledprogressive little county that
we have that has restorativejustice, they have heart, they
have a lot of different thingsthat they do, and so just trying
to model what Durham does hasbeen very hard in the rest of
North Carolina because it's veryrural.
But yeah, we do.
We do what we can to fight forpeople that are impacted in the

(01:04:35):
system.
You can find us at emancipatenc.
org.
I have a podcast which is, ofcourse, the black light mass
incarceration show, and you canfind that on any major streaming
platform.
And then, if you want to followme, I'm on LinkedIn, sierra M
Cobb, and I'm mainly on Twitter.
I got a Facebook, Cierra Cobb,and I'm a Twitter girl, so I'll

(01:04:55):
be on Twitter and you can followme at Cierra M Cobb one.

Amber (01:05:00):
Awesome.

Jason (01:05:01):
Yeah well, Sierra, it was great talking to you.
I know Amber got to meet youprevious to this for me as first
time so it was delightfultalking with you and getting to
know you.
You came from a very roughbeginning, you had tremendous
experiences and it sounds likeyou are on this great path.

(01:05:23):
I hope you and Jeffrey arereunited sooner rather than
later physically and that justthings continue to go positively
for you.

Cierra (01:05:34):
Thank you so much for having me on here.
It's important to have more andmore podcasts like this and
more and more conversations justto change the narrative shift
in how people think of thecriminal justice system, because
that's the only way we're goingto make a positive impact.
That's shifting the narrativein the thought process of people
.

Jason (01:05:49):
Absolutely, and with that we'll say until next time,
Amber.

Amber (01:05:53):
See you next time.