May 28, 2024 • 61 mins
What happens when a career in law enforcement collides with unexpected personal and legal challenges? In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason discover Joe and Amy's extraordinary journey. Joe, a former law enforcement officer, shares his story of camaraderie and disillusionment within the justice system. He opens up about his middle-class upbringing in Michigan, his educational and athletic pursuits, and what he saw in the system that led him to adopt a more empathetic view towards incarcerated people.
Joe recounts the bewildering experience of facing allegations that challenged his understanding of the law and his own actions. Explore the profound impact on Joe and Amy's life as they navigate post-incarceration challenges, from probation and registry restrictions to societal judgment. Learn how they built a supportive relationship and a loving environment for their son, despite encountering significant hurdles like employment difficulties and community stigma. Together, Joe and Amy's story is a testament to the power of resilience, the strength of familial support, and the ongoing fight for justice and fair treatment.
Organizations mentioned in the episode:
United Voices for Sex Offense Reform
Women Against Registry
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.
Amber (00:41):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:42):
Hey, amber.
Today we have our first coupleon the podcast.
It's Joe and Amy.
Good morning, joe and Amy.
Good morning.
How are you?
It's great to have you here.
So we're going to start byasking Joe to tell us a little
bit about your life before thecriminal legal system and what
brought you into it.
Joe (01:03):
So I actually grew up in Michigan.
I had a pretty normal childhood.
I had nothing crazy, nothingtraumatic.
My parents were married myentire life.
My dad worked a swing shift sohe was coming and going a lot
pretty frequently, which wasn'tnormal I guess in my
neighborhood.
Brothers and sisters I have onebrother, no sisters.
(01:26):
We went on vacations when wecould.
We weren't rich, we were moreof a middle-class family.
Amber (01:31):
What kind of things did you do for fun when you were
younger?
Joe (01:35):
Growing up back then I would say the late 80s, early
90s it was a typical childhood.
Growing up in a neighborhoodfull of kids the same age, we
all played from wake up until wewent to bed and the street
lights came on.
The only time we came back homewas for lunch maybe, and we had
to be home for five o'clockdinner every night and then back
(01:56):
outside again until the lightscame on.
We did everything we had afield behind my house, so so we
would play football, baseball,street hockey, you name it.
We did it growing up.
We caused some problems, butnothing that I wouldn't say kids
didn't cause.
Jason (02:13):
So you were one of the neighborhood kids, just hanging
out doing what kids did in the80s and 90s.
And then school were you astudent?
Were you into sports?
Were you into music?
What was your thing?
Joe (02:23):
As my wife will uh confirm, I am not musically inclined.
Um, I'm what I would call thedumb jock.
Growing up in school I was a cstudent.
I was in some special edclasses for math and science.
I played football, I ran track.
I was captain both teams.
I'm very athletic maybe not now, but I was.
I was very athletic and that'sjust what I enjoy doing.
(02:46):
I struggled at school a littlebit but I made my way through it
.
C student I always say C is getyour degrees and so do D
sometimes.
I attempted college right out ofhigh school.
I didn't like it so I opted tonot go to college and focus on
working and making money, decidewhat I wanted to do for a
living.
I had a teacher that actuallyin high school that told me I
(03:10):
would probably be really good atlaw enforcement and I kind of
laughed at him back then.
And then after high school Iwas like you know, it does
interest me really a lot.
So I majored in criminaljustice and sadly I never
graduated with that degree butit actually got me into law
enforcement.
I did an internship with alocal agency.
I felt more in love with it soI really put a focus on that and
(03:32):
through hard work anddedication and a lot of luck, I
would say I actually became acop.
Jason (03:38):
So you're a police officer for how many years?
Joe (03:42):
I was a police officer for actually three years Exactly.
I actually yeah, I actuallyleft the force or forced off the
force.
Jason (03:50):
Forced off the force, so I think it's is this the right
time to get into it?
What happened?
Joe (04:10):
Yeah, so I went to law enforcement.
I became a sheriff in the areaand I was working, sometimes in
a jail, sometimes the court,sometimes I would do other
things for them and I was doingreally well.
I was liked by my command staff.
I was like by my fellowofficers.
We used to play jokes on peoplewhen they would leave the
computer to go places, on peoplewhen they would leave the
computer to go places.
We would uh, a lot of peoplewould just leave the sign on on
the computers and as jokes.
A lot of times we would playjokes on other officers we would
(04:33):
, you know, post on theirfacebook feeds or myspace if it
was still around back then andstuff like that.
You know that they were comingout of the closet or just jokes
that you know weren't harmful topeople, but they can make you
mad.
Sometimes it was a frat-likeculture.
Yeah, we were a lot of youngofficers.
(04:55):
It was pretty young force.
I mean it was kind of afrat-like environment.
Yeah, especially in the jailswe really had nothing to do
besides to harass people eachother not inmates each other and
yeah, they kind of took on afrat like environment where it's
free for all what ages?
you were 20 I was 20, 25 I thinkwhen I started.
(05:17):
I think I didn't believe in theforce when I was like 28, I
believe.
So it was going great.
I did work in the court for alittle while too, and that's
kind of where I learned thejustice system and how I viewed
it as a twisted system.
I started losing faith in itwhen I was working in the court,
when I would see people who Ibelieve were firmly innocent
(05:41):
people get convicted and go tojail.
And I started looking at thatand watching prosecutors and
defensive attorneys going out tolunch together and laughing
about stuff and I'm like thisisn't normal, this isn't right,
it shouldn't be like this.
Jason (06:00):
So did that create like an identity crisis for you?
You're thinking like are we thebaddies?
Joe (06:05):
It kind of did.
It also made me morecompassionate, I would say,
towards the inmates and kind ofunderstand them a little better,
and I would just talk to themabout their problems and what
was going on and try to giveadvice that if you want to
change your life, only you canchange it and the best way to
change it is don't go back tothe same environment you were in
that got you in this situation,because that's all it's going
(06:27):
to do.
Amber (06:28):
And so, joe I think what I'm hearing is there started to
be a certain awareness, when youwere working in the courts, of
some of the injustices of thesystem.
Someone who was on the frontend of that system, how did that
(06:50):
inform the way that youinteracted with people?
Joe (06:51):
as a police officer, it made me more aware of how
twisted the system is and howthe media also only releases the
information they want you tosee and hear.
But as far as how it impactedme in everyday life, as far as
meeting people, talking topeople, inmates, stuff like that
it just made me more aware ofthem and that they're not
(07:12):
horrible people and they justmade horrible mistakes and they
got caught up in a system thatis not out to help them, it's
just out to hold them back andhurt them.
And that was my biggest thingwhen I would talk to people that
were incarcerated as I wasworking.
There was try to talk to peopleand help them realize, if you
(07:33):
are in a bad situation that gotyou here, the only way to get
out of that situation is to doit for yourself and you have to
change your life.
And who you hang around with andI always joked, but they're not
going to joke with them I toldthem are those people visiting
you in jail?
Probably not.
If they're not visiting you injail, are they really your
(07:54):
friends and your family?
Because your friends and yourfamily, the true ones, are the
ones that come to jail and visityou, the ones that put money on
your books, the ones that helpyou out, and if they're not here
doing that, they're probablynot good to have around you.
That's how I would say.
It changed my view on thesystem was that you're not
innocent until proven guilty.
You're more guilty until proveninnocent in this country.
(08:17):
Now, are we really doing what'sbest for these people?
We're not helping them, we'rehurting them, right, and that
kind of what changed my thought.
Amber (08:28):
And so what happened that brought you even closer to a
fuller understanding of thesystem.
Joe (08:36):
Everything was going great in my life.
I mean, I was making good money, I was young, I was living a
kind of a wild life, kind of afast life.
I was drinking quite a bitsocially with my friends after
work.
And I got a phone call one dayfrom my mom, asked me if I was
sitting down.
And I was like, okay, yeah.
And she's like, well, yourdad's going to go to the
hospital.
He's not feeling good, he'stingling in his feet.
(08:59):
And I was like, okay, well, mydad's not a hospital person, not
a doctor person.
I I was like, okay, well, mydad's not a hospital person, not
a doctor person.
I said, okay, well, just keepme updated.
I'm at work, just keep meupdated if something happens.
But he should be fine.
Four hours later in my shift Igot another phone call from my
mom, who I thought was justgoing to be a hey, we're out of
the hospital phone call.
And it was hey, I got to talkto you about something.
(09:22):
I said, okay, and she's likeyour dad's paralyzed.
And I'm like wait a minute.
My dad drove to the hospital,my dad walked into the hospital
how is my dad paralyzed?
And we went through this wholestory.
Everything happened and at thatpoint he was diagnosed a few
days later with stage fourcancer.
So I was able to to take outFMLA and I was able to travel to
(09:47):
and from where the state theywere in and spend time with my
dad and really sorry, it's hard,it's okay.
Amber (09:57):
No, take the time you need.
Joe (10:01):
Bond with him and spend time with him.
During that time period I wasgoing through a lot.
I was still working and I wastraveling I would say three or
four times in two months that Iwould go to and from that state.
Um, I had free reign to do that.
My command staff was veryunderstanding, very supportive
(10:23):
of it, so they were great.
When I came back home, my dadhad passed away and I took some
time off work.
I came back to work about a weekafter my dad passed and I
started noticing kind of weirdmessages popping up on my
(10:43):
instant messengers for people'snames I didn't really recognize.
But at the same time, like Isaid, I was kind of living a
pretty fast life in a way.
I was meeting a lot of people,whether it be out in public or
it be a bar, whether it beonline, trying.
I was single, I was trying toget a girlfriend or something
you know, and the time I had nokids and I'm 27, 20 years old, I
(11:09):
had a good job.
I had no kids.
I hadn't you know.
I was kind of a catch at thetime, I guess you would say, you
know, and I was trying to findsomeone and I would meet lots of
people.
So random names popping up onmy messenger wasn't really a red
flag.
I didn't think nothing of it.
After a while I was kind oflike, okay, well, this is kind
(11:30):
of getting weird.
I had one that popped up a fewtimes and a couple times here
and there, and I would makesmall talk and nothing big.
I wouldn't ask to meet up withthis person, nothing like that,
never exchanged pictures ofnudity or anything.
And then randomly, about two,two and a half weeks after my
(11:55):
dad had passed away and I wentback to work, I get a knock on
my door and it ended up beinginternet crime in my apartment
and it threw me for a loop.
At first I was like, hey guys,come on in, what do you guys
need?
I thought they were justworking in the area and they
just happened to stop in myhouse.
So I was just, well, open up inmy house, come on in, what are
(12:18):
you guys doing in the area?
And they said, well, we've gotto talk to you.
And I was like, okay.
And they said, well, can we goanywhere?
We can sit.
Everything kind of changed atthat point and that's when they
enlightened me that they said me.
And then they said or somebodythat may have gained access to
(12:38):
your accounts was we're talkingto a minor.
And at that time I was honestlyjust kind of blown away.
I was like, oh okay, well, Ican guarantee you I haven't done
nothing.
If you need anything likelaptops, cell phones, anything
you need, I'll give it to you.
I'm gonna prove I'm innocenthere.
And they said okay.
(13:00):
And they said we have a warrantand I, like you don't need the
warrant, I'll give you anythingyou need.
And they said okay.
So they sat down and we talkedand everything that we talked
about because I was lawenforcement we are allowed a
little bit of leeway with whatwe say and I was told it was not
(13:25):
going to be put on the record.
I said okay and I talked to him, I mean openly, freely.
They searched my apartment.
I gave them everything theyneeded, like I said, I told them
you'll need a warrant, you haveanything you want, you know.
And at that point I startedrealizing wait a these instant
(13:48):
messengers that were popping up,not knowing who they were
pretty stupid on my behalf totalk to these people without
asking other questions.
Jason (13:59):
And just for clarity here , these chats took a sexual yes.
Joe (14:05):
Some of them.
Well, yeah, some of them did,but not really they weren't.
My chats were not in a sexualrule of nature and that's kind
of where I was confused.
I was blown away.
You know, like why, if I didtalk to somebody who was
underage, I know I didn't try tomeet them, I know I wasn't
(14:29):
trying to hook up with them, Iknow I wasn't asking for nudes,
I know I wasn't doing any ofthis stuff, so I didn't break a
law.
Why are you here?
And you know there's.
Well, you're talking to a minor.
I said, okay, but if I'm justtalking to somebody, I'm not
breaking a law.
And they said, well, the natureof some of these conversations
(14:50):
that we've seen, I again, youcan have my laptop, you can have
my cell phones, you can doanything you want with them.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
I ended up being moved to adifferent jail to work on what's
called like a punishment area,and I sat there for six months,
(15:10):
working every day, doing my jobas if normal and not hearing
anything.
And then one day I got a phonecall from the union steward
letting me know that they'repressing charges against me.
It's like again now.
I'm shocked, I'm blown away.
It's been six months, I'm notdoing anything wrong and now I'm
facing charges for somethingthat I don't fully understand.
(15:34):
I turned myself in, I did allthe things I had to do and the
biggest thing was when I went tocourt.
Internet crime stood there andwhen they're talking about my
bond, originally it was supposedto be set very high and
(15:55):
internet crime spoke in court tothe judge and stated that they
did not believe I would be aflight risk.
They did not believe that I'mgoing to do any harm to anybody.
They did not believe that Iactually did anything wrong.
And they said when they hadsearched my computer and
(16:17):
searched my phone, they were thecleanest phone and computer
they've ever searched.
The only messages that were in asexual nature were messages
that were taken from my workcomputer.
And that's kind of when thelight bulb really got bright on
me and I realized those jokes wewere doing as the frat boy,
(16:39):
jokes of just hey, Joe's comingout of the closet, blah, blah,
blah, those escalated and thoseturned into a joke gone wrong,
or so I thought, and it got mein trouble and I actually chose
(17:00):
to fight the prosecutor becauseI firmly felt that I did nothing
wrong.
So if it's not on my homecomputer, it's not on my cell
phone, it's only on a workcomputer that I shared with
other people.
Even though it's on my sign on,I can beat this case.
Amber (17:21):
So I have a couple of questions and thoughts, if
you'll indulge me, if you don'tmind.
So one of the things thatstruck me was this idea that so,
first of all, when Internetcrimes came to your home, these
are people that you either knowor know of, because essentially
(17:42):
these are colleagues.
Are these colleagues of yours?
Is a different department ofpeople that you don't know?
What did that look like?
Joe (17:50):
They worked in the same building as me.
I knew them.
I knew them by name.
I knew them by first name.
My mom actually met thesepeople Right After my dad had
passed away the commandingofficer in my jail.
That work then granted mymother a pass to take a tour of
the jail so she could see it andshe met them.
Amber (18:14):
Yeah.
So my follow up to that is andbecause we do try to have some
difficult conversations here onAmplified Voices, to have some
difficult conversations here onAmplified Voices Because you
were in law enforcement, do youfeel that there was a different
way that your case was handled?
Joe (18:33):
Yeah, so they didn't store my house with a SWAT team.
They didn't show up with 10guys like they probably would
have for any normal situation.
They showed up with onelieutenant and they showed up
with two internet crime officersand that was it.
It was just three people and Iknew all three people.
(18:56):
I think internet crime actuallywas standing up for me and they
were legitimately trying to sayhe's not this person and I fell
on deaf ears.
So, yeah, I believe I was givenspecial treatment.
I was still allowed to work forsix months and then, when it
(19:19):
became time that the prosecutorreally got involved, then it
kind of became a let's get themkind of mentality.
I feel like I became the Patsy,I became the fall boy.
They wanted to get somebody andthey thought they could get me
(19:44):
and they thought I would justcrumble down and just give up
and say, okay, I'm done, I quit.
I always was taught to fightfor what was right.
It's the lesson my dad alwaystaught me Throughout the family.
I got a good lawyer.
My lawyer actually is and was aprosecutor for other counties
(20:06):
in the areas around me.
He did the best he could and Ifought and we fought.
We dragged this thing on forsix or eight months, fighting to
try to prove my innocence, andat one point we had a very, very
good agreement that I was goingto plead down to a misdemeanor
(20:27):
and no registry and all I had todo was quit my job and walk
away.
And I was either that or I wasfacing 12 or 14 years some of
that in jail.
So I was going to do it.
But then when that went up theladder to that prosecutor, that
was a no go.
They denied it.
But then when that went up theladder to that prosecutor, that
was a no-go they denied it.
Jason (20:48):
So you're standing firm and you also know that if you
are convicted and you go toprison, it's going to be quite
an interesting thing forsomebody who was in law
enforcement to be incarcerated,right.
Joe (21:05):
Yeah, because, again, I worked in the court.
I've seen people go to jail,seen people go to prison who I
believe were innocent, and I'veheard people jurors say they
must be guilty because the copsgot them, or I don't want to be
here so they must be guilty.
I just want to go home and Iknew that.
(21:25):
And I also knew that, being asex offense, I'm going to be
classified.
The worst of the worst, andbeing ex-law enforcement at that
point, that's even worse.
I might not ever leave jailperson.
I might not ever leave.
We continued to fight and itfinally came down to my option
was I take the case to trial,faced up to the 14 years in
(21:50):
prison, or I could take thisplea that was given to me the
day or two days before the court.
That would be six months countyjail, four years probation, but
I had to register as a sexoffender, even though my crime
(22:10):
at the time was not aregisterable offense.
They were going to make meregister anyway.
Jason (22:18):
And for what length of time?
Joe (22:22):
25 years.
So I talked it over with myfamily and it was a hard
decision.
But, as my family told me, I'mnever really a gambling person
and I know how the legal systemwould work.
It would be a no brainer for meto probably just accept the
(22:46):
plea do my time, get out andstart rebuilding my life.
I know how to quote-unquote dotime in jail.
I watched everybody do it.
I knew how to lay low.
I knew what to say, what not tosay.
Jason (23:02):
So how was reality versus your expectation?
Joe (23:09):
to say what not to say.
So how was reality versus yourexpectation?
So part of I argued back Iwould accept this, but I want to
be guaranteed court orderprotective custody for my own
safety and I'll agree to that.
Now let's fast forward to theday that I was sentenced.
Even the judge gave me tons ofleeway as far as I was found
(23:32):
guilty and I asked to go to jailthat day and the judge actually
told me no.
The judge said I want you to gohome.
I want you to have one month togather your life and get things
in order before you go to jail.
And I'm giving you thatprofessional courtesy which kind
(23:53):
of blew me away.
Again, I got some courtesy inthe legal system that most
people would have never got.
That courtesy hey, you'reguilty but you can go home.
Amber (24:05):
I really appreciate you sharing those things and laying
them out, because I think thestory is really important and it
does underscore that the system, once it sort of starts rolling
, it's a train that is verydifficult to stop, regardless of
(24:27):
who you are.
So when you say protectivecustody, Regardless of who you
(24:48):
are.
Joe (24:48):
So when you say protective custody which actually was just
segregation I was put into acell.
It's called kind of a KPS-typecell.
If we had any high-profilepeople, that's where they would
go.
I would have had my ownbathroom, I would have had my
own TV, I would have hadeverything, and that, to me, was
(25:12):
my safety net.
I spent all of about six hoursin that actual cell before the
head sheriff decided to move meagainst my will to a different
county to do the rest of my timeI knew I was safe where I was
and they said I wasn't safe.
(25:35):
They said that I was an escaperisk, which I laughed because I
had six months.
Why am I running?
So they almost forcefully movedme.
They surrounded me with aboutfour or five officers and that's
when I asked what was going onand they told me I was getting
(25:55):
moved and I tried to fight thatand I lost that fight too.
So I told them I said you don'tgot to do this, you don't got
to surround me by officers.
I know what you're doing.
Yeah, just just take me.
So they moved me to a differentcounty that was over an hour
away, and that was hard, becausenow I'm over an hour away from
my family.
I don't want to drive over anhour to see me.
That was my thought, right?
Amber (26:17):
so yeah, um, it was, uh, it was tough what is the time
that elapsed that you wereincarcerated?
Joe (26:26):
when they moved me from my county to another county, the
county I was being housed in,they had no control over me.
They had to do whatever mycounty said to do with me.
Nobody kind of knew what wasgoing on.
I would ask for my out date and, yeah, I would get the letter
back saying I had no out date.
(26:47):
And everybody has an out date.
Why don't I have an out date?
It's because that colony had no, they had no right over me.
They were just holding me forsomebody else.
So I couldn't get noinformation and I had to take an
officer out of the area andtalk to that person in private
(27:09):
and let them know who I was,where, where I was from, what
was going on with me.
And when I let him into theoffice he was like, oh, you're
the guy, you're the one that'shere.
And I said, yeah, it's me.
And he was like, yeah, a bunchof us looked at your stuff.
We don't understand why you'rehere, and you know well, I don't
(27:32):
either, but I'm here.
Jason (27:35):
So at some point you get released and then you are single
and you're on probation rightand you meet a woman.
Joe (27:50):
Yeah.
So I got released.
I was on probation, I wasregistered and I was also doing
treatment classes and I got ajob.
I was working at a restaurantand I met a girl there and we
just started talking as friends.
She reached out to me one nighton New Year's.
(28:14):
She said that her boyfriendjust broke up with her and I
said, okay, well, on New Year'sI was at my cousin's house On
New Year's.
Amy (28:21):
On New Year's he broke up with you on New.
Jason (28:24):
Year's.
Amy (28:26):
He did.
Yeah, I had a not great on andoff relationship I guess.
But you know, from myperspective, I had known Joe for
about a year because I hadworked with him in the
restaurant, knew he was astand-up guy, honestly thought
he was married.
Because I'm like you know, howcould you know this type of guy,
not already have somebody?
Because you know he's just verykind, just a great person to
(28:48):
work with.
And yeah, we started talking alittle bit and things kind of
went well.
I just admired who he was as aperson and I started to fall in
love with him.
Jason (29:00):
So you reached out to him and said I need a New Year's
date.
Amy (29:04):
Yeah, I just wanted somebody to talk to.
That's all it was.
I just wanted somebody to talkto.
From there we started dating.
Joe (29:12):
And, honestly, I actually pulled her on the first date.
Yeah, I told her the very firstday yeah, what was going on
with you?
And I was on the registry.
This is what happened, so Ididn't want to start something
that never come out later, right, and then destroy the whole
relationship.
It's going to destroy therelationship.
Amy (29:31):
Let's just destroy it right now yeah, I think it's very,
very important for anyone whohas any type of history, like,
just just get it out at first.
Because if that person knowsyou like in my, in our example,
like I knew him for about a yearbefore I knew what type of
person he was, like I was justshocked when he told me I'm like
no, that's, that's not you,that is not possible.
(29:52):
And like I from there, like Iwas like you know what this is
ridiculous and I like from whatyou had told me, you know, I
really want to, you know, evenif things don't work out, like,
I'm going to be here for you.
But I mean, luckily for us.
It's been 12 years and wherethis is our, our 10th year
anniversary.
We're celebrating our 10thwedding anniversary this year.
Jason (30:14):
Amy, was there a moment where you thought to yourself no
, I'm not doing this Like I'mnot?
Amy (30:21):
I just I thought it was wrong.
Like I thought he got trappedup and screwed over by the legal
system because oftechnicalities.
When we first got together,like I knew, he was living with
a family member at the time andhe was having some problems with
him so he wanted to try andmove out into housing and I know
at that time it was a struggle.
Joe (30:43):
At the time Michigan had in their registry requirements you
couldn't live in a quarter mileof school.
We lived at the time in apretty big area.
There are schools that areeverywhere.
It made finding a place to livepretty difficult, even an
apartment.
Amy (31:03):
So I had always lived with family before I met Joe and we
just decided to move in together.
Amber (31:12):
I have a question actually.
So, because you were undersupervision at the time, were
there requirements that you hadto follow in either treatment or
probation to disclose you werehaving a relationship?
Was there anything that wasrequired of your partner in
order to be in that relationship?
Joe (31:33):
At the time I had a very, very strict probation officer.
She actually did not like thefact that I was former law
enforcement.
She actually told me to my faceshe didn't like it and that she
thought I thought I was betterthan her.
She didn't like me and sheadvised me not to date anybody.
(31:57):
This is the first time I evermet her and I said, whatever,
I'm staying away anyway.
Then, when I met Amy,everything kind of changed and I
actually asked Amy if she wouldbe willing to come with me to
one of my probation meetingswith my probation officer, just
so they could meet.
But she met my probationofficer and it didn't go as bad
(32:20):
as I thought it would.
Actually she didn't have aproblem with Amy.
And then I got a new probationofficer and that person was
really good.
That person was very, veryleaned in and everything.
And again, amy met her too, andI wasn't forced to do that, I
just did that because I feltlike this is the best avenue to
(32:41):
go.
And then we decided that we'regoing to find a house and that
whole problem came up again withwhere to live.
And you know, we found a houseand it was a great house.
You know.
We did get married and at onepoint we were on our honeymoon
and found out when we got backfrom our honeymoon that somebody
(33:03):
found out in the neighborhoodand they went door to door in
the neighborhood with a flyerand let everybody know.
And at this point we thought,oh God, this is it, we're going
to be hated.
And I told her we got to hunkerdown, we're not moving, I'm not
(33:27):
running.
So we stayed and it was greatbecause I talked to the one
neighbor across street that'show I found out about this and
he just said he was at a wedding.
He just said give me a littlebit of time, let me process all
this.
Okay.
I said I just want you know, Ididn't lie to you.
(33:49):
You never asked so and it tookmaybe about six months and after
that things were kind of backto normal again.
I mean it never became aproblem at the first house.
All the neighbors were friendly, they all waved at us, talked
to us.
We would have block parties.
We just decided that we wantedto get a bigger, better house.
(34:13):
We wanted more of a countrylife.
Now we're married and now wehave a son.
So we wanted him to grow up inan environment different from
what we grew up at.
We wanted him to see horses, wewanted him to ride dirt bikes
and four-wheelers.
So we moved and that's kind ofwhere things started going bad.
Amy (34:35):
Yeah, they took a turn again, but I guess real quick.
Going back to I know this is awhile earlier in the
conversation when you had to goto treatment.
So your probation officers,they were asking me questions
related to like how is hetreating me?
I'm like, well, this person islike mounds better than the
person that I was with before,because this person does not
(34:57):
verbally abuse me.
This person does not likephysically nothing.
He opens car doors for me, likeI'm telling you my, my now
husband, is a gentleman in allrounded aspects.
Couldn't ask for anythingbetter.
Jason (35:09):
And you're, he's, he's's, he's misting up over here as
you're talking, because peoplecan't see, but I just want to
share that I was raised, rightyou and it shows, it shows
there's a lot of.
There's a lot of love on screenfor those people who are
listening.
Amy (35:24):
Just want to share that 100 percent um, I mean, we're
trying to raise our son the sameway, right, but the registry is
not for the faint of heart.
So in our first home we didhave some issues with a
vigilante.
We never found out who that was, but after a while we just kept
to ourselves and, honestly, atone point we even made really
(35:47):
good friends with a woman andher son, who's the same age as
ours, down the street we'restill best friends with them to
this day.
My son goes over their house.
Like we both have moved at thispoint.
Joe (35:58):
we do a lot of things together and we told her
everything a couple months acouple months after we met her
yep, um, I didn't want to comeout later and have her second
guess.
Oh my god, my kid's been overthere.
So we came out, we talked toher and stuff and it went good.
Amber (36:13):
So I really appreciate you talking about particularly
now that you have a child, andhow relationships with neighbors
and friends are going, becausewe in this episode we talked
about the registry, and ifsomebody stumbles upon this
(36:34):
episode and doesn't necessarilyknow what the registry is, I
just want to clarify a littlebit are required to register
with the state, which then putstheir information online for
everyone to see, showing theircrime, their address and other
(36:56):
various information.
So one of the things that isstriking me as very touching,
Joe and Amy, is there's been athread of transparency
throughout this entire story,giving the information
disclosing to people wanting tobe honest and just wanting to do
(37:19):
the right thing, and so Iappreciate you really
highlighting that and sharingthat with folks, because, at the
end of the day, Because at theend of the day, information
without context of who someoneactually is stokes fear and is
(37:40):
very harmful.
So thank you for really sharingthat part of your story.
Jason (37:42):
And I just want to add on to that.
I just know that it's nevereasy, right?
Because for Joe having todisclose to Amy when they first
met, and every single time youmeet somebody like, and you have
to make that calculation when,is too soon.
I've heard so many people askthis question when is the right
time?
(38:03):
It's all this extra baggage andit sounds like you have the
secret sauce Like you found it.
You found what works for you uslike.
Joe (38:16):
You found it.
You found what works for you.
So, to touch on that, there wasa few people we did not tell
and that would be her family.
We never told her family.
They know now we opted not totell the family.
There was reason around it.
I didn't want them judging me.
I wanted to build a trustfactor but, like there's a lot
of juggling act and we got to apoint where we missed the
opportunity to say something.
(38:38):
Now it's over withholdinginformation.
And then through the years I'veworked a couple different
places.
A lot of families helped mefind jobs and I really
appreciated for that.
I had found a job working for amassive corporation.
It was going to be myopportunity to step up in this
(39:01):
family and really provide.
I admitted everything on myapplication.
They did a background check.
They found it.
They asked me to write a letterto them explaining what
happened.
So I wrote a letter.
Shockingly, they hired me and Iwas happy.
One of my friends, actually, whoI met in my therapy class in my
(39:23):
session, was working there.
He just got hired about a yearbefore me.
Since he was there, he was onthe registry.
I knew I could get in.
So we were both working thereand it was just went on for 11
and a half months and then westarted getting harassed by a
coworker there.
They found us on the registry.
(39:43):
I decided to handle the properway and I went to HR along with
him.
We both went to HR.
We both complained that we'rebeing harassed and they said,
okay, this will not come back onyou guys, you're protected.
That lasted two days.
Two days later we were phonecalled when we were off work and
(40:06):
we were told we were fired.
And we asked why.
And they said, well, becauseyour and I said but you knew
about what criminal past youknew it.
They said well, we made amistake when we hired you.
I said a mistake is a mistake.
You do once, not when you do ittwice.
And there's another person onthe registry working at this
(40:27):
corporation in the same complexas us.
Are you firing them too?
Corporation in the same complexas us, are you firing them too?
They said, well, no, so we werelet go based upon that.
We were being harassed and theycouldn't prove who it was
because they used like a googlespoofed phone number kind of
thing.
But we lost our jobs because ofthis, and then that caused a
(40:49):
marital problem with me and Amy.
We were fighting and I don'tlike to bring it up, but she
left the house for a few daysDuring that time period she told
her family.
Jason (41:06):
So did it just become too much?
Amy (41:08):
Yeah, at that point I was like, look, it's the registry, I
needed a little bit of a break.
I it's the label, likeobviously, like I feel like that
company that he worked for justdidn't want anything, because
whoever was harassing him couldobviously like they could
honestly go public and just bashthe company, saying you know a
(41:29):
bunch of people on the registrywork here and it's not a great
company and and I understand, Isee that side.
But at the same time, likethese are people.
They didn't do anything, theywere giving you, they had a
great work ethic, like he got.
I want to say, joe, you got apromotion or two, or you were.
Just he was on his way up.
Joe (41:47):
He got an accommodation for being one of the harder working
people during the inspection.
Amy (41:52):
I've been going through school I was trying to finish up
my bachelor's degree at thattime and I just I needed a break
, and at this time we had a sonas well.
So we were in a little bit of agray area for a couple of days.
Amber (42:10):
So at that point I'm just like we got to tell my folks
because I'm sick of hiding it.
I'm actually getting a littleteared up hearing this only
because this is something thatis very common and I appreciate
you not omitting how this lifeunder the oppression of the
registry can cause problemswithin a family, and I'm hearing
(42:33):
.
The reason I'm tearing up isbecause I'm hearing a certain
apologetic nature oh, we hadthis fight, you don't need to
apologize, is my point, becausethis life is very, very
difficult.
Life is very, very difficultand the idea that it would cause
(42:58):
strife within a family andtension is just expected.
It's designed and, havingworked with so many,
particularly women, who supportpeople on the registry across
the country, this is not aunique story.
It's very, very difficult.
This is part of the journey.
So again, thank you for sharingthat.
And so you had to tell yourfamily, and the reason it's
(43:21):
difficult to tell family isbecause you actually care about
what they think.
Let's hear a little bit aboutwhen you told your family what
happened.
Amy (43:32):
I think we waited.
Oh gosh it was seven years.
Yeah.
Joe (43:38):
She made the decision, she was actually at her brother's
house for a few days, and whenshe told me she was going to
tell her family, that's when Ithought, well, I guess his
marriage is over.
Amy (43:52):
I called my mom in the car and I told her I'm like I was
upset at the time, I'm like thisis what happened to him and he
has this still and it's just,it's not fair, and I don't know
what to do and I just need abreak for a while.
And she's like okay, hey, amy,look at what you have, look at
what you felt.
This person is not that person.
And she just didn't care.
She was just trying to.
She was telling me all of thegood things about Joe and she
(44:16):
was like, so what?
And it's irrelevant at thispoint.
What's happening to him isn'tfair.
And then I called my dad and hesaid the same things and I'm
like, okay, wait a minute.
I know I have a good person inmy life.
He is my soulmate, he is myother half.
(44:37):
I feel like I can tell himanything and he won't judge me.
Joe (44:41):
I will say when she told me about her dad, that was a big
one for me.
I respect her dad a lot.
He's a very, very, very smartman.
He's accomplished a ton in hislife.
He holds very high positions.
He told me that he supports me100%.
He advised Amy to come back andgive me another chance and to
(45:05):
talk to me and we could workthrough it.
So I just want to say like itwas a huge weight lifted and
it's just I'm so emotional aboutit.
More importantly, it made amyfeel better, made her life a lot
easier because she wasn'tliving a lie, no more, and I'm
(45:26):
very grateful for her family andfor her.
She's been huge in my life.
She's been in my route.
Jason (45:32):
Let's take this story to the action.
So what are the things you'redoing to make change?
Amy (45:39):
So at that point when the job loss happened, I tried to
write some letters.
I didn't really get muchtraction.
We honestly were looking forattorneys at that point because
I'm like this was wrong, whathappened to Joe, and I want
something to come out of it.
And unfortunately we weren'table to get any traction there
(45:59):
and it just kind of died for alittle while.
But this is the best blessingin disguise, because joe found
another job through a friend offamily member and he turned his
life around again about 180degrees and now he has a
professional career in a goodindustry where he'll always find
(46:23):
work and probably makes doubleor triple what he did before.
I can heavily support ourfamily.
It took me about eight years tograduate from college because I
was working full-time, had achild.
Life is difficult and trying tofit school in the mix is not
easy.
So I had finally graduated withmy bachelor's degree and we
(46:47):
wanted to move.
We wanted to find our dreamhome and we looked.
We had a good realtor.
She found us a great deal on ahome and we were like this is it
.
We're going to move, we haveour dream home.
We moved from the city to arural area and this is going to
be it.
Joe (47:04):
Being in the situation that I was in, I felt amazing that I
bought this myself, all bymyself.
I'm, for once, providing ourdream home and I was making more
money than my college-educatedwife and I did it.
(47:27):
It was a very proud moment forme to do that and to show my son
because we don't hide this frommy son my son knows everything
and he's young but he knowseverything and to show to him
that hey, dad could still dothis, Dad could still be a dad
(47:47):
and he can make good money andstill support this family.
It gave me such a good sense ofwell-being.
And then the spin.
And then the spin.
Amy (48:02):
So we moved into our dream home and we were here for about
I think four months.
We had met some of the spin andthen the spin.
So we moved into our dream homeand we were here for about I
think four months.
We had met some of theneighbors.
Everyone out where we're at isgenerally nice, cordial.
My son actually has a couplefriends in the neighborhood and
he goes and plays with the kidsthere.
It's great.
However, we have one neighborwho is somewhat of a vigilante
(48:25):
and the registry gave her a lotof she got an alert that a
offender had moved into the area, and that's where this all
starts it started spiraling sowe actually had a property issue
.
So that is the number one issuethat came about and from that,
(48:48):
from the property issue, wedidn't file suit till months
later because of some actionsthat were taken from this
vigilante person.
It's been terrible.
Like she has brought my soninto this and I'm actually going
in therapy because I have avery hard time dealing with that
.
At this point I'd love to move,but we have gone through not to
(49:19):
this extent before, but we havegone through something like
this for a little bit in ourfirst home.
So at this point we're justtrying to stay and hunker down
and get through it.
So I just have a quick question.
Amber (49:30):
You're referring to this person as a vigilante.
So what you mean by that isthis person has tried to
leverage Joe's registry statuswith a lawsuit, or tried to
spread information or has youknow.
Has this involved physicalviolence or is it more
reputational violence?
Amy (49:50):
Yeah, so it's more as far as it's harassment and
reputational.
So they've we've had severalpolice reports over the past
year filed and the police won'tdo anything about it.
They've lied to the police.
Basically, from theunderstanding on my behalf, like
from what I've read because I'mvery analytical she's basically
trying to get Joe in troublefor things that he didn't do and
(50:11):
the police won't do anythingabout it.
So at this point we're justhunkering down and just trying
to live our lives.
But in this, because of theactions, I've also advanced my
advocacy journey.
So I signed up for a couplegroups.
I did join the you before soradvocacy group and sean and kim
(50:35):
and everyone in that group havebeen wonderful.
I also joined war and ann hasbeen great and all the speakers
that come.
I know you, both you and Jason,you and Amber have spoke.
I haven't seen you speak but Ifeel like for myself that is a
therapy in itself and I'll saythe the law enforcement out here
, where we are very smallcommunity.
Joe (50:58):
They have been amazing and I have no hatred towards law
enforcement.
What happened to me?
I saw a family who were in lawenforcement.
When we talked to them that wehad our first police incident
out here.
One of the neighbors and theyfound out went to the police
station to let them know that aperson on the registry had moved
(51:21):
in right behind her and theysaid there's nothing we can do
about that.
He has a right to live out heresame way you do.
He's not doing anything wrong.
So the police have been great.
I have six-foot-high privacyfence all the way around my
property.
That's one of the reasons whywe bought the house is we've got
the privacy fence.
It's in the rural area andshouldn't have no problems out
(51:44):
here.
Amber (51:44):
So I think it's good to share that experience because
there is a perception amongstpeople who have experienced such
an oppression that there's nohelp for them, there's nothing
that can be done, and the factof the matter is sometimes
that's true.
(52:05):
Sometimes the stigma doesinfluence people in systems
Right, but sometimes it's not.
Sometimes the buildup and thisis the emotional harm of the
labeling and the registry andthe stigma and the registry and
(52:25):
the stigma People perceive thatthere's no help for them.
People perceive that theirfamily won't understand or their
friends won't understand ifthey share the information.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to go back to two thingsthat Amy said, just because she
did mention two groups usingacronyms that people may not
know what those acronyms mean.
She referred to the UnitedVoices for Sex Offense Reform,
(52:50):
which is an advocacy group thatdoes national work and for
people who are impacted by theregistry and their families to
be treated fairly and to changethe laws.
And then there is Women AgainstRegistry, which she referred to
, which is another greatorganization that is doing work
(53:14):
and really specifically focusingon women and families who are
banding together to say this isaffecting us too and this is
wrong.
So I just wanted to just clearup those two great organizations
that are doing some really goodwork.
Jason (53:32):
Just to tie back to thank you for that.
So hopefully, that luckcontinues to grow and your
relationships continue to growand I hope that things are great
from here on out.
And I'm great to see both ofyou coming today to talk with us
on the podcast and the advocacywork that you're doing.
(53:52):
It's just tremendous.
You're giving back, so thankyou.
Joe (53:58):
I will say through the years.
I mean I've been in theregistry now for-.
Amy (54:02):
This is your 15th year.
15th year.
Joe (54:04):
Not a proud moment, but I will say though, through the
years, like Amber said, I've hadhard times registering.
I've had agencies say you canonly register from 10 to two,
but not between 12 and one,because we're at lunch.
Well, I got to work because Ididn't trust the city that I
(54:25):
lived in.
I used to drive an hour to thestate police to register because
I knew they would do it.
I knew they would do it theright way and they didn't judge
me.
When I walked in there theywere treating me like a human.
And then, when I moved out here, the lady who handles it out
here when I spoke to her thefirst time, she said well,
(54:48):
pardon me, she goes.
If so, is it you registered atthe state and you go an hour to
do it?
And I said, yeah, it's nothingagainst you, I don't trust city
police.
And she's like okay, well, canI ask why?
And I told her what happened inmy previous residence, can I
ask why?
And I told her what happened inmy previous residence.
And she was like well, I'm notthat way, I don't do that.
(55:14):
I firmly believe that you guysdeserve a second chance.
You guys did your time and youguys don't deserve to be on a
list.
It's not right.
She's like.
So if you want to come in here,I'd be more than happy to help
you.
If I need to come into work anhour early so you can do this,
I'll do that for you, just soyou are withholding up to your
responsibilities.
(55:34):
And that was like wow, likesomebody actually wants to help
us out here, and that was agreat thing to have.
I'm happy I'm able to be a dad,I'm able to take my kid to
school every morning and drophim off, and there's days I get
to go and pick him up fromschool, which is not many.
I work late, but there are daysthat I do and I surprise him
(55:59):
and he just runs out of schooland just tackles me.
But with that also becameanother problem.
I mean, I went to go see himget an award and I was told I
was not allowed in school and Itold him that Michigan law
prohibits you from saying that.
(56:20):
There's no law saying I cannotbe in his school in Michigan,
you know, but they have theright being, it's their property
and they told me I couldn't goin and see and I never got to
see my son get an award.
Since then I've talked to theschool administration way up and
they actually said next time tocontact them ahead of time and
they'll make arrangements andallow me to come into school so
(56:40):
I can see it.
I thought that's all I want.
I will literally walk with apolice officer to watch him get
the award and walk out of thebuilding.
I don't care, I just want to beable to see it.
That's part of being a parent.
So that was taken from me onetime and it's not going to
happen again.
I fought that too, so we keepfighting forward and knocking
(57:02):
down walls.
Amy (57:03):
I've actually contemplated switching my career to law
because of what we've beenthrough and still debating it.
But it's a heavy kind of soresubject in this house because
it's a lot of schooling and wehave a lot on our plate already
and I'll say that, with herbeing part of these groups, this
gave her a voice.
Joe (57:20):
This gave her people to talk to.
Part of these groups, this gaveher a voice.
This gave her people to talk toand, honestly, it opened up
this podcast because she broughtup to me and I originally told
her no, I don't want to do it.
And then I was sitting intraffic one day and I texted her
and said what's the name of thepodcast?
Because she knows I lovepodcasts.
There's other podcasts I listento that kind of along the same
lines and I listen to your guys'podcast and I loved it.
(57:44):
And that's when I reached out toJason.
I wanted to learn more aboutyou two.
I want to know who I wastalking to.
That's my self-trust issues isI want to know who I was talking
to and I just want to say thankyou to you guys for giving not
only me, but giving everybodyelse a platform who may not be
in my situation, but maybe inany situation a platform to come
(58:06):
out and speak, because thesevoices need to be heard and it's
a large group and we need tostand up.
And one of the biggestinfluences in my life is Jelly
Roll, the music artist and whathe's been through.
He's brought to life a lot ofhis life and how he's rebuilt
his life and people aren'tjudging him for it, and that's
(58:30):
kind of where I'm at now is.
I want people to know what'shappened and how.
You know, this is affecting menot only for the six months I
was in jail.
It's affecting me 15 yearslater and I said that 10 more
years ago and yet my wife andson they were never part of that
, but, yeah, it's affecting themand that's not right.
So that's why I agreed to dothis was because you guys, your
(58:52):
background and that I'm verygrateful for you gave me an
opportunity to share my story.
I hope it gives somebody hope Iwas able to rebound and rebuild
my life.
My brother always says it's notabout how many times you get
knocked down, it's about howhard you fight to get back up on
your feet and that's what I'mdoing, Amber.
Jason (59:14):
I don't think we need a wrap up.
I think Joe did it.
Amber (59:17):
I don't even have to ask my final question.
That was so beautiful and Ijust want to thank you guys.
This is the first time thatwe've had a couple come on
together and we've covered a lotof ground, particularly about
family life on the registry.
That we have not covered beforeand I know for me personally
(59:40):
it's been very meaningful to meas a person who lives under
similar oppression, and I'm veryexcited to hear that you're
taking your power back, becausethis is one of the worst
injustices of the registry isthat people don't believe that
they deserve a place at thetable.
(01:00:02):
So whether that table is infamily life, whether it's at
your kid's school, whether thattable is criminal legal reform,
we need to recognize harm asharm.
So whatever harm was causedduring, whatever brought someone
into the legal system, is dealtwith in a certain way.
(01:00:24):
But what we're not payingattention to is the state harm
that is happening from thesystem, and so your story is a
part of that, and so manystories of the guests that we've
seen here in advocacy andaround the country.
So it's really great to havehad you here, jason.
(01:00:45):
Any last thoughts before we go.
Jason (01:00:48):
I'm just going to say thank you Amy, Thank you Joe,
and until next time, Amber.
Amber (01:00:54):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (01:00:59):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
AmplifiedVoicesshow.
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.
Amber (00:41):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:42):
Hey, amber.
Today we have our first coupleon the podcast.
It's Joe and Amy.
Good morning, joe and Amy.
Good morning.
How are you?
It's great to have you here.
So we're going to start byasking Joe to tell us a little
bit about your life before thecriminal legal system and what
brought you into it.
Joe (01:03):
So I actually grew up in Michigan.
I had a pretty normal childhood.
I had nothing crazy, nothingtraumatic.
My parents were married myentire life.
My dad worked a swing shift sohe was coming and going a lot
pretty frequently, which wasn'tnormal I guess in my
neighborhood.
Brothers and sisters I have onebrother, no sisters.
(01:26):
We went on vacations when wecould.
We weren't rich, we were moreof a middle-class family.
Amber (01:31):
What kind of things did you do for fun when you were
younger?
Joe (01:35):
Growing up back then I would say the late 80s, early
90s it was a typical childhood.
Growing up in a neighborhoodfull of kids the same age, we
all played from wake up until wewent to bed and the street
lights came on.
The only time we came back homewas for lunch maybe, and we had
to be home for five o'clockdinner every night and then back
(01:56):
outside again until the lightscame on.
We did everything we had afield behind my house, so so we
would play football, baseball,street hockey, you name it.
We did it growing up.
We caused some problems, butnothing that I wouldn't say kids
didn't cause.
Jason (02:13):
So you were one of the neighborhood kids, just hanging
out doing what kids did in the80s and 90s.
And then school were you astudent?
Were you into sports?
Were you into music?
What was your thing?
Joe (02:23):
As my wife will uh confirm, I am not musically inclined.
Um, I'm what I would call thedumb jock.
Growing up in school I was a cstudent.
I was in some special edclasses for math and science.
I played football, I ran track.
I was captain both teams.
I'm very athletic maybe not now, but I was.
I was very athletic and that'sjust what I enjoy doing.
(02:46):
I struggled at school a littlebit but I made my way through it
.
C student I always say C is getyour degrees and so do D
sometimes.
I attempted college right out ofhigh school.
I didn't like it so I opted tonot go to college and focus on
working and making money, decidewhat I wanted to do for a
living.
I had a teacher that actuallyin high school that told me I
(03:10):
would probably be really good atlaw enforcement and I kind of
laughed at him back then.
And then after high school Iwas like you know, it does
interest me really a lot.
So I majored in criminaljustice and sadly I never
graduated with that degree butit actually got me into law
enforcement.
I did an internship with alocal agency.
I felt more in love with it soI really put a focus on that and
(03:32):
through hard work anddedication and a lot of luck, I
would say I actually became acop.
Jason (03:38):
So you're a police officer for how many years?
Joe (03:42):
I was a police officer for actually three years Exactly.
I actually yeah, I actuallyleft the force or forced off the
force.
Jason (03:50):
Forced off the force, so I think it's is this the right
time to get into it?
What happened?
Joe (04:10):
Yeah, so I went to law enforcement.
I became a sheriff in the areaand I was working, sometimes in
a jail, sometimes the court,sometimes I would do other
things for them and I was doingreally well.
I was liked by my command staff.
I was like by my fellowofficers.
We used to play jokes on peoplewhen they would leave the
computer to go places, on peoplewhen they would leave the
computer to go places.
We would uh, a lot of peoplewould just leave the sign on on
the computers and as jokes.
A lot of times we would playjokes on other officers we would
(04:33):
, you know, post on theirfacebook feeds or myspace if it
was still around back then andstuff like that.
You know that they were comingout of the closet or just jokes
that you know weren't harmful topeople, but they can make you
mad.
Sometimes it was a frat-likeculture.
Yeah, we were a lot of youngofficers.
(04:55):
It was pretty young force.
I mean it was kind of afrat-like environment.
Yeah, especially in the jailswe really had nothing to do
besides to harass people eachother not inmates each other and
yeah, they kind of took on afrat like environment where it's
free for all what ages?
you were 20 I was 20, 25 I thinkwhen I started.
(05:17):
I think I didn't believe in theforce when I was like 28, I
believe.
So it was going great.
I did work in the court for alittle while too, and that's
kind of where I learned thejustice system and how I viewed
it as a twisted system.
I started losing faith in itwhen I was working in the court,
when I would see people who Ibelieve were firmly innocent
(05:41):
people get convicted and go tojail.
And I started looking at thatand watching prosecutors and
defensive attorneys going out tolunch together and laughing
about stuff and I'm like thisisn't normal, this isn't right,
it shouldn't be like this.
Jason (06:00):
So did that create like an identity crisis for you?
You're thinking like are we thebaddies?
Joe (06:05):
It kind of did.
It also made me morecompassionate, I would say,
towards the inmates and kind ofunderstand them a little better,
and I would just talk to themabout their problems and what
was going on and try to giveadvice that if you want to
change your life, only you canchange it and the best way to
change it is don't go back tothe same environment you were in
that got you in this situation,because that's all it's going
(06:27):
to do.
Amber (06:28):
And so, joe I think what I'm hearing is there started to
be a certain awareness, when youwere working in the courts, of
some of the injustices of thesystem.
Someone who was on the frontend of that system, how did that
(06:50):
inform the way that youinteracted with people?
Joe (06:51):
as a police officer, it made me more aware of how
twisted the system is and howthe media also only releases the
information they want you tosee and hear.
But as far as how it impactedme in everyday life, as far as
meeting people, talking topeople, inmates, stuff like that
it just made me more aware ofthem and that they're not
(07:12):
horrible people and they justmade horrible mistakes and they
got caught up in a system thatis not out to help them, it's
just out to hold them back andhurt them.
And that was my biggest thingwhen I would talk to people that
were incarcerated as I wasworking.
There was try to talk to peopleand help them realize, if you
(07:33):
are in a bad situation that gotyou here, the only way to get
out of that situation is to doit for yourself and you have to
change your life.
And who you hang around with andI always joked, but they're not
going to joke with them I toldthem are those people visiting
you in jail?
Probably not.
If they're not visiting you injail, are they really your
(07:54):
friends and your family?
Because your friends and yourfamily, the true ones, are the
ones that come to jail and visityou, the ones that put money on
your books, the ones that helpyou out, and if they're not here
doing that, they're probablynot good to have around you.
That's how I would say.
It changed my view on thesystem was that you're not
innocent until proven guilty.
You're more guilty until proveninnocent in this country.
(08:17):
Now, are we really doing what'sbest for these people?
We're not helping them, we'rehurting them, right, and that
kind of what changed my thought.
Amber (08:28):
And so what happened that brought you even closer to a
fuller understanding of thesystem.
Joe (08:36):
Everything was going great in my life.
I mean, I was making good money, I was young, I was living a
kind of a wild life, kind of afast life.
I was drinking quite a bitsocially with my friends after
work.
And I got a phone call one dayfrom my mom, asked me if I was
sitting down.
And I was like, okay, yeah.
And she's like, well, yourdad's going to go to the
hospital.
He's not feeling good, he'stingling in his feet.
(08:59):
And I was like, okay, well, mydad's not a hospital person, not
a doctor person.
I I was like, okay, well, mydad's not a hospital person, not
a doctor person.
I said, okay, well, just keepme updated.
I'm at work, just keep meupdated if something happens.
But he should be fine.
Four hours later in my shift Igot another phone call from my
mom, who I thought was justgoing to be a hey, we're out of
the hospital phone call.
And it was hey, I got to talkto you about something.
(09:22):
I said, okay, and she's likeyour dad's paralyzed.
And I'm like wait a minute.
My dad drove to the hospital,my dad walked into the hospital
how is my dad paralyzed?
And we went through this wholestory.
Everything happened and at thatpoint he was diagnosed a few
days later with stage fourcancer.
So I was able to to take outFMLA and I was able to travel to
(09:47):
and from where the state theywere in and spend time with my
dad and really sorry, it's hard,it's okay.
Amber (09:57):
No, take the time you need.
Joe (10:01):
Bond with him and spend time with him.
During that time period I wasgoing through a lot.
I was still working and I wastraveling I would say three or
four times in two months that Iwould go to and from that state.
Um, I had free reign to do that.
My command staff was veryunderstanding, very supportive
(10:23):
of it, so they were great.
When I came back home, my dadhad passed away and I took some
time off work.
I came back to work about a weekafter my dad passed and I
started noticing kind of weirdmessages popping up on my
(10:43):
instant messengers for people'snames I didn't really recognize.
But at the same time, like Isaid, I was kind of living a
pretty fast life in a way.
I was meeting a lot of people,whether it be out in public or
it be a bar, whether it beonline, trying.
I was single, I was trying toget a girlfriend or something
you know, and the time I had nokids and I'm 27, 20 years old, I
(11:09):
had a good job.
I had no kids.
I hadn't you know.
I was kind of a catch at thetime, I guess you would say, you
know, and I was trying to findsomeone and I would meet lots of
people.
So random names popping up onmy messenger wasn't really a red
flag.
I didn't think nothing of it.
After a while I was kind oflike, okay, well, this is kind
(11:30):
of getting weird.
I had one that popped up a fewtimes and a couple times here
and there, and I would makesmall talk and nothing big.
I wouldn't ask to meet up withthis person, nothing like that,
never exchanged pictures ofnudity or anything.
And then randomly, about two,two and a half weeks after my
(11:55):
dad had passed away and I wentback to work, I get a knock on
my door and it ended up beinginternet crime in my apartment
and it threw me for a loop.
At first I was like, hey guys,come on in, what do you guys
need?
I thought they were justworking in the area and they
just happened to stop in myhouse.
So I was just, well, open up inmy house, come on in, what are
(12:18):
you guys doing in the area?
And they said, well, we've gotto talk to you.
And I was like, okay.
And they said, well, can we goanywhere?
We can sit.
Everything kind of changed atthat point and that's when they
enlightened me that they said me.
And then they said or somebodythat may have gained access to
(12:38):
your accounts was we're talkingto a minor.
And at that time I was honestlyjust kind of blown away.
I was like, oh okay, well, Ican guarantee you I haven't done
nothing.
If you need anything likelaptops, cell phones, anything
you need, I'll give it to you.
I'm gonna prove I'm innocenthere.
And they said okay.
(13:00):
And they said we have a warrantand I, like you don't need the
warrant, I'll give you anythingyou need.
And they said okay.
So they sat down and we talkedand everything that we talked
about because I was lawenforcement we are allowed a
little bit of leeway with whatwe say and I was told it was not
(13:25):
going to be put on the record.
I said okay and I talked to him, I mean openly, freely.
They searched my apartment.
I gave them everything theyneeded, like I said, I told them
you'll need a warrant, you haveanything you want, you know.
And at that point I startedrealizing wait a these instant
(13:48):
messengers that were popping up,not knowing who they were
pretty stupid on my behalf totalk to these people without
asking other questions.
Jason (13:59):
And just for clarity here , these chats took a sexual yes.
Joe (14:05):
Some of them.
Well, yeah, some of them did,but not really they weren't.
My chats were not in a sexualrule of nature and that's kind
of where I was confused.
I was blown away.
You know, like why, if I didtalk to somebody who was
underage, I know I didn't try tomeet them, I know I wasn't
(14:29):
trying to hook up with them, Iknow I wasn't asking for nudes,
I know I wasn't doing any ofthis stuff, so I didn't break a
law.
Why are you here?
And you know there's.
Well, you're talking to a minor.
I said, okay, but if I'm justtalking to somebody, I'm not
breaking a law.
And they said, well, the natureof some of these conversations
(14:50):
that we've seen, I again, youcan have my laptop, you can have
my cell phones, you can doanything you want with them.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
I ended up being moved to adifferent jail to work on what's
called like a punishment area,and I sat there for six months,
(15:10):
working every day, doing my jobas if normal and not hearing
anything.
And then one day I got a phonecall from the union steward
letting me know that they'repressing charges against me.
It's like again now.
I'm shocked, I'm blown away.
It's been six months, I'm notdoing anything wrong and now I'm
facing charges for somethingthat I don't fully understand.
(15:34):
I turned myself in, I did allthe things I had to do and the
biggest thing was when I went tocourt.
Internet crime stood there andwhen they're talking about my
bond, originally it was supposedto be set very high and
(15:55):
internet crime spoke in court tothe judge and stated that they
did not believe I would be aflight risk.
They did not believe that I'mgoing to do any harm to anybody.
They did not believe that Iactually did anything wrong.
And they said when they hadsearched my computer and
(16:17):
searched my phone, they were thecleanest phone and computer
they've ever searched.
The only messages that were in asexual nature were messages
that were taken from my workcomputer.
And that's kind of when thelight bulb really got bright on
me and I realized those jokes wewere doing as the frat boy,
(16:39):
jokes of just hey, Joe's comingout of the closet, blah, blah,
blah, those escalated and thoseturned into a joke gone wrong,
or so I thought, and it got mein trouble and I actually chose
(17:00):
to fight the prosecutor becauseI firmly felt that I did nothing
wrong.
So if it's not on my homecomputer, it's not on my cell
phone, it's only on a workcomputer that I shared with
other people.
Even though it's on my sign on,I can beat this case.
Amber (17:21):
So I have a couple of questions and thoughts, if
you'll indulge me, if you don'tmind.
So one of the things thatstruck me was this idea that so,
first of all, when Internetcrimes came to your home, these
are people that you either knowor know of, because essentially
(17:42):
these are colleagues.
Are these colleagues of yours?
Is a different department ofpeople that you don't know?
What did that look like?
Joe (17:50):
They worked in the same building as me.
I knew them.
I knew them by name.
I knew them by first name.
My mom actually met thesepeople Right After my dad had
passed away the commandingofficer in my jail.
That work then granted mymother a pass to take a tour of
the jail so she could see it andshe met them.
Amber (18:14):
Yeah.
So my follow up to that is andbecause we do try to have some
difficult conversations here onAmplified Voices, to have some
difficult conversations here onAmplified Voices Because you
were in law enforcement, do youfeel that there was a different
way that your case was handled?
Joe (18:33):
Yeah, so they didn't store my house with a SWAT team.
They didn't show up with 10guys like they probably would
have for any normal situation.
They showed up with onelieutenant and they showed up
with two internet crime officersand that was it.
It was just three people and Iknew all three people.
(18:56):
I think internet crime actuallywas standing up for me and they
were legitimately trying to sayhe's not this person and I fell
on deaf ears.
So, yeah, I believe I was givenspecial treatment.
I was still allowed to work forsix months and then, when it
(19:19):
became time that the prosecutorreally got involved, then it
kind of became a let's get themkind of mentality.
I feel like I became the Patsy,I became the fall boy.
They wanted to get somebody andthey thought they could get me
(19:44):
and they thought I would justcrumble down and just give up
and say, okay, I'm done, I quit.
I always was taught to fightfor what was right.
It's the lesson my dad alwaystaught me Throughout the family.
I got a good lawyer.
My lawyer actually is and was aprosecutor for other counties
(20:06):
in the areas around me.
He did the best he could and Ifought and we fought.
We dragged this thing on forsix or eight months, fighting to
try to prove my innocence, andat one point we had a very, very
good agreement that I was goingto plead down to a misdemeanor
(20:27):
and no registry and all I had todo was quit my job and walk
away.
And I was either that or I wasfacing 12 or 14 years some of
that in jail.
So I was going to do it.
But then when that went up theladder to that prosecutor, that
was a no go.
They denied it.
But then when that went up theladder to that prosecutor, that
was a no-go they denied it.
Jason (20:48):
So you're standing firm and you also know that if you
are convicted and you go toprison, it's going to be quite
an interesting thing forsomebody who was in law
enforcement to be incarcerated,right.
Joe (21:05):
Yeah, because, again, I worked in the court.
I've seen people go to jail,seen people go to prison who I
believe were innocent, and I'veheard people jurors say they
must be guilty because the copsgot them, or I don't want to be
here so they must be guilty.
I just want to go home and Iknew that.
(21:25):
And I also knew that, being asex offense, I'm going to be
classified.
The worst of the worst, andbeing ex-law enforcement at that
point, that's even worse.
I might not ever leave jailperson.
I might not ever leave.
We continued to fight and itfinally came down to my option
was I take the case to trial,faced up to the 14 years in
(21:50):
prison, or I could take thisplea that was given to me the
day or two days before the court.
That would be six months countyjail, four years probation, but
I had to register as a sexoffender, even though my crime
(22:10):
at the time was not aregisterable offense.
They were going to make meregister anyway.
Jason (22:18):
And for what length of time?
Joe (22:22):
25 years.
So I talked it over with myfamily and it was a hard
decision.
But, as my family told me, I'mnever really a gambling person
and I know how the legal systemwould work.
It would be a no brainer for meto probably just accept the
(22:46):
plea do my time, get out andstart rebuilding my life.
I know how to quote-unquote dotime in jail.
I watched everybody do it.
I knew how to lay low.
I knew what to say, what not tosay.
Jason (23:02):
So how was reality versus your expectation?
Joe (23:09):
to say what not to say.
So how was reality versus yourexpectation?
So part of I argued back Iwould accept this, but I want to
be guaranteed court orderprotective custody for my own
safety and I'll agree to that.
Now let's fast forward to theday that I was sentenced.
Even the judge gave me tons ofleeway as far as I was found
(23:32):
guilty and I asked to go to jailthat day and the judge actually
told me no.
The judge said I want you to gohome.
I want you to have one month togather your life and get things
in order before you go to jail.
And I'm giving you thatprofessional courtesy which kind
(23:53):
of blew me away.
Again, I got some courtesy inthe legal system that most
people would have never got.
That courtesy hey, you'reguilty but you can go home.
Amber (24:05):
I really appreciate you sharing those things and laying
them out, because I think thestory is really important and it
does underscore that the system, once it sort of starts rolling
, it's a train that is verydifficult to stop, regardless of
(24:27):
who you are.
So when you say protectivecustody, Regardless of who you
(24:48):
are.
Joe (24:48):
So when you say protective custody which actually was just
segregation I was put into acell.
It's called kind of a KPS-typecell.
If we had any high-profilepeople, that's where they would
go.
I would have had my ownbathroom, I would have had my
own TV, I would have hadeverything, and that, to me, was
(25:12):
my safety net.
I spent all of about six hoursin that actual cell before the
head sheriff decided to move meagainst my will to a different
county to do the rest of my timeI knew I was safe where I was
and they said I wasn't safe.
(25:35):
They said that I was an escaperisk, which I laughed because I
had six months.
Why am I running?
So they almost forcefully movedme.
They surrounded me with aboutfour or five officers and that's
when I asked what was going onand they told me I was getting
(25:55):
moved and I tried to fight thatand I lost that fight too.
So I told them I said you don'tgot to do this, you don't got
to surround me by officers.
I know what you're doing.
Yeah, just just take me.
So they moved me to a differentcounty that was over an hour
away, and that was hard, becausenow I'm over an hour away from
my family.
I don't want to drive over anhour to see me.
That was my thought, right?
Amber (26:17):
so yeah, um, it was, uh, it was tough what is the time
that elapsed that you wereincarcerated?
Joe (26:26):
when they moved me from my county to another county, the
county I was being housed in,they had no control over me.
They had to do whatever mycounty said to do with me.
Nobody kind of knew what wasgoing on.
I would ask for my out date and, yeah, I would get the letter
back saying I had no out date.
(26:47):
And everybody has an out date.
Why don't I have an out date?
It's because that colony had no, they had no right over me.
They were just holding me forsomebody else.
So I couldn't get noinformation and I had to take an
officer out of the area andtalk to that person in private
(27:09):
and let them know who I was,where, where I was from, what
was going on with me.
And when I let him into theoffice he was like, oh, you're
the guy, you're the one that'shere.
And I said, yeah, it's me.
And he was like, yeah, a bunchof us looked at your stuff.
We don't understand why you'rehere, and you know well, I don't
(27:32):
either, but I'm here.
Jason (27:35):
So at some point you get released and then you are single
and you're on probation rightand you meet a woman.
Joe (27:50):
Yeah.
So I got released.
I was on probation, I wasregistered and I was also doing
treatment classes and I got ajob.
I was working at a restaurantand I met a girl there and we
just started talking as friends.
She reached out to me one nighton New Year's.
(28:14):
She said that her boyfriendjust broke up with her and I
said, okay, well, on New Year'sI was at my cousin's house On
New Year's.
Amy (28:21):
On New Year's he broke up with you on New.
Jason (28:24):
Year's.
Amy (28:26):
He did.
Yeah, I had a not great on andoff relationship I guess.
But you know, from myperspective, I had known Joe for
about a year because I hadworked with him in the
restaurant, knew he was astand-up guy, honestly thought
he was married.
Because I'm like you know, howcould you know this type of guy,
not already have somebody?
Because you know he's just verykind, just a great person to
(28:48):
work with.
And yeah, we started talking alittle bit and things kind of
went well.
I just admired who he was as aperson and I started to fall in
love with him.
Jason (29:00):
So you reached out to him and said I need a New Year's
date.
Amy (29:04):
Yeah, I just wanted somebody to talk to.
That's all it was.
I just wanted somebody to talkto.
From there we started dating.
Joe (29:12):
And, honestly, I actually pulled her on the first date.
Yeah, I told her the very firstday yeah, what was going on
with you?
And I was on the registry.
This is what happened, so Ididn't want to start something
that never come out later, right, and then destroy the whole
relationship.
It's going to destroy therelationship.
Amy (29:31):
Let's just destroy it right now yeah, I think it's very,
very important for anyone whohas any type of history, like,
just just get it out at first.
Because if that person knowsyou like in my, in our example,
like I knew him for about a yearbefore I knew what type of
person he was, like I was justshocked when he told me I'm like
no, that's, that's not you,that is not possible.
(29:52):
And like I from there, like Iwas like you know what this is
ridiculous and I like from whatyou had told me, you know, I
really want to, you know, evenif things don't work out, like,
I'm going to be here for you.
But I mean, luckily for us.
It's been 12 years and wherethis is our, our 10th year
anniversary.
We're celebrating our 10thwedding anniversary this year.
Jason (30:14):
Amy, was there a moment where you thought to yourself no
, I'm not doing this Like I'mnot?
Amy (30:21):
I just I thought it was wrong.
Like I thought he got trappedup and screwed over by the legal
system because oftechnicalities.
When we first got together,like I knew, he was living with
a family member at the time andhe was having some problems with
him so he wanted to try andmove out into housing and I know
at that time it was a struggle.
Joe (30:43):
At the time Michigan had in their registry requirements you
couldn't live in a quarter mileof school.
We lived at the time in apretty big area.
There are schools that areeverywhere.
It made finding a place to livepretty difficult, even an
apartment.
Amy (31:03):
So I had always lived with family before I met Joe and we
just decided to move in together.
Amber (31:12):
I have a question actually.
So, because you were undersupervision at the time, were
there requirements that you hadto follow in either treatment or
probation to disclose you werehaving a relationship?
Was there anything that wasrequired of your partner in
order to be in that relationship?
Joe (31:33):
At the time I had a very, very strict probation officer.
She actually did not like thefact that I was former law
enforcement.
She actually told me to my faceshe didn't like it and that she
thought I thought I was betterthan her.
She didn't like me and sheadvised me not to date anybody.
(31:57):
This is the first time I evermet her and I said, whatever,
I'm staying away anyway.
Then, when I met Amy,everything kind of changed and I
actually asked Amy if she wouldbe willing to come with me to
one of my probation meetingswith my probation officer, just
so they could meet.
But she met my probationofficer and it didn't go as bad
(32:20):
as I thought it would.
Actually she didn't have aproblem with Amy.
And then I got a new probationofficer and that person was
really good.
That person was very, veryleaned in and everything.
And again, amy met her too, andI wasn't forced to do that, I
just did that because I feltlike this is the best avenue to
(32:41):
go.
And then we decided that we'regoing to find a house and that
whole problem came up again withwhere to live.
And you know, we found a houseand it was a great house.
You know.
We did get married and at onepoint we were on our honeymoon
and found out when we got backfrom our honeymoon that somebody
(33:03):
found out in the neighborhoodand they went door to door in
the neighborhood with a flyerand let everybody know.
And at this point we thought,oh God, this is it, we're going
to be hated.
And I told her we got to hunkerdown, we're not moving, I'm not
(33:27):
running.
So we stayed and it was greatbecause I talked to the one
neighbor across street that'show I found out about this and
he just said he was at a wedding.
He just said give me a littlebit of time, let me process all
this.
Okay.
I said I just want you know, Ididn't lie to you.
(33:49):
You never asked so and it tookmaybe about six months and after
that things were kind of backto normal again.
I mean it never became aproblem at the first house.
All the neighbors were friendly, they all waved at us, talked
to us.
We would have block parties.
We just decided that we wantedto get a bigger, better house.
(34:13):
We wanted more of a countrylife.
Now we're married and now wehave a son.
So we wanted him to grow up inan environment different from
what we grew up at.
We wanted him to see horses, wewanted him to ride dirt bikes
and four-wheelers.
So we moved and that's kind ofwhere things started going bad.
Amy (34:35):
Yeah, they took a turn again, but I guess real quick.
Going back to I know this is awhile earlier in the
conversation when you had to goto treatment.
So your probation officers,they were asking me questions
related to like how is hetreating me?
I'm like, well, this person islike mounds better than the
person that I was with before,because this person does not
(34:57):
verbally abuse me.
This person does not likephysically nothing.
He opens car doors for me, likeI'm telling you my, my now
husband, is a gentleman in allrounded aspects.
Couldn't ask for anythingbetter.
Jason (35:09):
And you're, he's, he's's, he's misting up over here as
you're talking, because peoplecan't see, but I just want to
share that I was raised, rightyou and it shows, it shows
there's a lot of.
There's a lot of love on screenfor those people who are
listening.
Amy (35:24):
Just want to share that 100 percent um, I mean, we're
trying to raise our son the sameway, right, but the registry is
not for the faint of heart.
So in our first home we didhave some issues with a
vigilante.
We never found out who that was, but after a while we just kept
to ourselves and, honestly, atone point we even made really
(35:47):
good friends with a woman andher son, who's the same age as
ours, down the street we'restill best friends with them to
this day.
My son goes over their house.
Like we both have moved at thispoint.
Joe (35:58):
we do a lot of things together and we told her
everything a couple months acouple months after we met her
yep, um, I didn't want to comeout later and have her second
guess.
Oh my god, my kid's been overthere.
So we came out, we talked toher and stuff and it went good.
Amber (36:13):
So I really appreciate you talking about particularly
now that you have a child, andhow relationships with neighbors
and friends are going, becausewe in this episode we talked
about the registry, and ifsomebody stumbles upon this
(36:34):
episode and doesn't necessarilyknow what the registry is, I
just want to clarify a littlebit are required to register
with the state, which then putstheir information online for
everyone to see, showing theircrime, their address and other
(36:56):
various information.
So one of the things that isstriking me as very touching,
Joe and Amy, is there's been athread of transparency
throughout this entire story,giving the information
disclosing to people wanting tobe honest and just wanting to do
(37:19):
the right thing, and so Iappreciate you really
highlighting that and sharingthat with folks, because, at the
end of the day, Because at theend of the day, information
without context of who someoneactually is stokes fear and is
(37:40):
very harmful.
So thank you for really sharingthat part of your story.
Jason (37:42):
And I just want to add on to that.
I just know that it's nevereasy, right?
Because for Joe having todisclose to Amy when they first
met, and every single time youmeet somebody like, and you have
to make that calculation when,is too soon.
I've heard so many people askthis question when is the right
time?
(38:03):
It's all this extra baggage andit sounds like you have the
secret sauce Like you found it.
You found what works for you uslike.
Joe (38:16):
You found it.
You found what works for you.
So, to touch on that, there wasa few people we did not tell
and that would be her family.
We never told her family.
They know now we opted not totell the family.
There was reason around it.
I didn't want them judging me.
I wanted to build a trustfactor but, like there's a lot
of juggling act and we got to apoint where we missed the
opportunity to say something.
(38:38):
Now it's over withholdinginformation.
And then through the years I'veworked a couple different
places.
A lot of families helped mefind jobs and I really
appreciated for that.
I had found a job working for amassive corporation.
It was going to be myopportunity to step up in this
(39:01):
family and really provide.
I admitted everything on myapplication.
They did a background check.
They found it.
They asked me to write a letterto them explaining what
happened.
So I wrote a letter.
Shockingly, they hired me and Iwas happy.
One of my friends, actually, whoI met in my therapy class in my
(39:23):
session, was working there.
He just got hired about a yearbefore me.
Since he was there, he was onthe registry.
I knew I could get in.
So we were both working thereand it was just went on for 11
and a half months and then westarted getting harassed by a
coworker there.
They found us on the registry.
(39:43):
I decided to handle the properway and I went to HR along with
him.
We both went to HR.
We both complained that we'rebeing harassed and they said,
okay, this will not come back onyou guys, you're protected.
That lasted two days.
Two days later we were phonecalled when we were off work and
(40:06):
we were told we were fired.
And we asked why.
And they said, well, becauseyour and I said but you knew
about what criminal past youknew it.
They said well, we made amistake when we hired you.
I said a mistake is a mistake.
You do once, not when you do ittwice.
And there's another person onthe registry working at this
(40:27):
corporation in the same complexas us.
Are you firing them too?
Corporation in the same complexas us, are you firing them too?
They said, well, no, so we werelet go based upon that.
We were being harassed and theycouldn't prove who it was
because they used like a googlespoofed phone number kind of
thing.
But we lost our jobs because ofthis, and then that caused a
(40:49):
marital problem with me and Amy.
We were fighting and I don'tlike to bring it up, but she
left the house for a few daysDuring that time period she told
her family.
Jason (41:06):
So did it just become too much?
Amy (41:08):
Yeah, at that point I was like, look, it's the registry, I
needed a little bit of a break.
I it's the label, likeobviously, like I feel like that
company that he worked for justdidn't want anything, because
whoever was harassing him couldobviously like they could
honestly go public and just bashthe company, saying you know a
(41:29):
bunch of people on the registrywork here and it's not a great
company and and I understand, Isee that side.
But at the same time, likethese are people.
They didn't do anything, theywere giving you, they had a
great work ethic, like he got.
I want to say, joe, you got apromotion or two, or you were.
Just he was on his way up.
Joe (41:47):
He got an accommodation for being one of the harder working
people during the inspection.
Amy (41:52):
I've been going through school I was trying to finish up
my bachelor's degree at thattime and I just I needed a break
, and at this time we had a sonas well.
So we were in a little bit of agray area for a couple of days.
Amber (42:10):
So at that point I'm just like we got to tell my folks
because I'm sick of hiding it.
I'm actually getting a littleteared up hearing this only
because this is something thatis very common and I appreciate
you not omitting how this lifeunder the oppression of the
registry can cause problemswithin a family, and I'm hearing
(42:33):
.
The reason I'm tearing up isbecause I'm hearing a certain
apologetic nature oh, we hadthis fight, you don't need to
apologize, is my point, becausethis life is very, very
difficult.
Life is very, very difficultand the idea that it would cause
(42:58):
strife within a family andtension is just expected.
It's designed and, havingworked with so many,
particularly women, who supportpeople on the registry across
the country, this is not aunique story.
It's very, very difficult.
This is part of the journey.
So again, thank you for sharingthat.
And so you had to tell yourfamily, and the reason it's
(43:21):
difficult to tell family isbecause you actually care about
what they think.
Let's hear a little bit aboutwhen you told your family what
happened.
Amy (43:32):
I think we waited.
Oh gosh it was seven years.
Yeah.
Joe (43:38):
She made the decision, she was actually at her brother's
house for a few days, and whenshe told me she was going to
tell her family, that's when Ithought, well, I guess his
marriage is over.
Amy (43:52):
I called my mom in the car and I told her I'm like I was
upset at the time, I'm like thisis what happened to him and he
has this still and it's just,it's not fair, and I don't know
what to do and I just need abreak for a while.
And she's like okay, hey, amy,look at what you have, look at
what you felt.
This person is not that person.
And she just didn't care.
She was just trying to.
She was telling me all of thegood things about Joe and she
(44:16):
was like, so what?
And it's irrelevant at thispoint.
What's happening to him isn'tfair.
And then I called my dad and hesaid the same things and I'm
like, okay, wait a minute.
I know I have a good person inmy life.
He is my soulmate, he is myother half.
(44:37):
I feel like I can tell himanything and he won't judge me.
Joe (44:41):
I will say when she told me about her dad, that was a big
one for me.
I respect her dad a lot.
He's a very, very, very smartman.
He's accomplished a ton in hislife.
He holds very high positions.
He told me that he supports me100%.
He advised Amy to come back andgive me another chance and to
(45:05):
talk to me and we could workthrough it.
So I just want to say like itwas a huge weight lifted and
it's just I'm so emotional aboutit.
More importantly, it made amyfeel better, made her life a lot
easier because she wasn'tliving a lie, no more, and I'm
(45:26):
very grateful for her family andfor her.
She's been huge in my life.
She's been in my route.
Jason (45:32):
Let's take this story to the action.
So what are the things you'redoing to make change?
Amy (45:39):
So at that point when the job loss happened, I tried to
write some letters.
I didn't really get muchtraction.
We honestly were looking forattorneys at that point because
I'm like this was wrong, whathappened to Joe, and I want
something to come out of it.
And unfortunately we weren'table to get any traction there
(45:59):
and it just kind of died for alittle while.
But this is the best blessingin disguise, because joe found
another job through a friend offamily member and he turned his
life around again about 180degrees and now he has a
professional career in a goodindustry where he'll always find
(46:23):
work and probably makes doubleor triple what he did before.
I can heavily support ourfamily.
It took me about eight years tograduate from college because I
was working full-time, had achild.
Life is difficult and trying tofit school in the mix is not
easy.
So I had finally graduated withmy bachelor's degree and we
(46:47):
wanted to move.
We wanted to find our dreamhome and we looked.
We had a good realtor.
She found us a great deal on ahome and we were like this is it
.
We're going to move, we haveour dream home.
We moved from the city to arural area and this is going to
be it.
Joe (47:04):
Being in the situation that I was in, I felt amazing that I
bought this myself, all bymyself.
I'm, for once, providing ourdream home and I was making more
money than my college-educatedwife and I did it.
(47:27):
It was a very proud moment forme to do that and to show my son
because we don't hide this frommy son my son knows everything
and he's young but he knowseverything and to show to him
that hey, dad could still dothis, Dad could still be a dad
(47:47):
and he can make good money andstill support this family.
It gave me such a good sense ofwell-being.
And then the spin.
And then the spin.
Amy (48:02):
So we moved into our dream home and we were here for about
I think four months.
We had met some of the spin andthen the spin.
So we moved into our dream homeand we were here for about I
think four months.
We had met some of theneighbors.
Everyone out where we're at isgenerally nice, cordial.
My son actually has a couplefriends in the neighborhood and
he goes and plays with the kidsthere.
It's great.
However, we have one neighborwho is somewhat of a vigilante
(48:25):
and the registry gave her a lotof she got an alert that a
offender had moved into the area, and that's where this all
starts it started spiraling sowe actually had a property issue
.
So that is the number one issuethat came about and from that,
(48:48):
from the property issue, wedidn't file suit till months
later because of some actionsthat were taken from this
vigilante person.
It's been terrible.
Like she has brought my soninto this and I'm actually going
in therapy because I have avery hard time dealing with that
.
At this point I'd love to move,but we have gone through not to
(49:19):
this extent before, but we havegone through something like
this for a little bit in ourfirst home.
So at this point we're justtrying to stay and hunker down
and get through it.
So I just have a quick question.
Amber (49:30):
You're referring to this person as a vigilante.
So what you mean by that isthis person has tried to
leverage Joe's registry statuswith a lawsuit, or tried to
spread information or has youknow.
Has this involved physicalviolence or is it more
reputational violence?
Amy (49:50):
Yeah, so it's more as far as it's harassment and
reputational.
So they've we've had severalpolice reports over the past
year filed and the police won'tdo anything about it.
They've lied to the police.
Basically, from theunderstanding on my behalf, like
from what I've read because I'mvery analytical she's basically
trying to get Joe in troublefor things that he didn't do and
(50:11):
the police won't do anythingabout it.
So at this point we're justhunkering down and just trying
to live our lives.
But in this, because of theactions, I've also advanced my
advocacy journey.
So I signed up for a couplegroups.
I did join the you before soradvocacy group and sean and kim
(50:35):
and everyone in that group havebeen wonderful.
I also joined war and ann hasbeen great and all the speakers
that come.
I know you, both you and Jason,you and Amber have spoke.
I haven't seen you speak but Ifeel like for myself that is a
therapy in itself and I'll saythe the law enforcement out here
, where we are very smallcommunity.
Joe (50:58):
They have been amazing and I have no hatred towards law
enforcement.
What happened to me?
I saw a family who were in lawenforcement.
When we talked to them that wehad our first police incident
out here.
One of the neighbors and theyfound out went to the police
station to let them know that aperson on the registry had moved
(51:21):
in right behind her and theysaid there's nothing we can do
about that.
He has a right to live out heresame way you do.
He's not doing anything wrong.
So the police have been great.
I have six-foot-high privacyfence all the way around my
property.
That's one of the reasons whywe bought the house is we've got
the privacy fence.
It's in the rural area andshouldn't have no problems out
(51:44):
here.
Amber (51:44):
So I think it's good to share that experience because
there is a perception amongstpeople who have experienced such
an oppression that there's nohelp for them, there's nothing
that can be done, and the factof the matter is sometimes
that's true.
(52:05):
Sometimes the stigma doesinfluence people in systems
Right, but sometimes it's not.
Sometimes the buildup and thisis the emotional harm of the
labeling and the registry andthe stigma and the registry and
(52:25):
the stigma People perceive thatthere's no help for them.
People perceive that theirfamily won't understand or their
friends won't understand ifthey share the information.
Thank you for sharing that.
I want to go back to two thingsthat Amy said, just because she
did mention two groups usingacronyms that people may not
know what those acronyms mean.
She referred to the UnitedVoices for Sex Offense Reform,
(52:50):
which is an advocacy group thatdoes national work and for
people who are impacted by theregistry and their families to
be treated fairly and to changethe laws.
And then there is Women AgainstRegistry, which she referred to
, which is another greatorganization that is doing work
(53:14):
and really specifically focusingon women and families who are
banding together to say this isaffecting us too and this is
wrong.
So I just wanted to just clearup those two great organizations
that are doing some really goodwork.
Jason (53:32):
Just to tie back to thank you for that.
So hopefully, that luckcontinues to grow and your
relationships continue to growand I hope that things are great
from here on out.
And I'm great to see both ofyou coming today to talk with us
on the podcast and the advocacywork that you're doing.
(53:52):
It's just tremendous.
You're giving back, so thankyou.
Joe (53:58):
I will say through the years.
I mean I've been in theregistry now for-.
Amy (54:02):
This is your 15th year.
15th year.
Joe (54:04):
Not a proud moment, but I will say though, through the
years, like Amber said, I've hadhard times registering.
I've had agencies say you canonly register from 10 to two,
but not between 12 and one,because we're at lunch.
Well, I got to work because Ididn't trust the city that I
(54:25):
lived in.
I used to drive an hour to thestate police to register because
I knew they would do it.
I knew they would do it theright way and they didn't judge
me.
When I walked in there theywere treating me like a human.
And then, when I moved out here, the lady who handles it out
here when I spoke to her thefirst time, she said well,
(54:48):
pardon me, she goes.
If so, is it you registered atthe state and you go an hour to
do it?
And I said, yeah, it's nothingagainst you, I don't trust city
police.
And she's like okay, well, canI ask why?
And I told her what happened inmy previous residence, can I
ask why?
And I told her what happened inmy previous residence.
And she was like well, I'm notthat way, I don't do that.
(55:14):
I firmly believe that you guysdeserve a second chance.
You guys did your time and youguys don't deserve to be on a
list.
It's not right.
She's like.
So if you want to come in here,I'd be more than happy to help
you.
If I need to come into work anhour early so you can do this,
I'll do that for you, just soyou are withholding up to your
responsibilities.
(55:34):
And that was like wow, likesomebody actually wants to help
us out here, and that was agreat thing to have.
I'm happy I'm able to be a dad,I'm able to take my kid to
school every morning and drophim off, and there's days I get
to go and pick him up fromschool, which is not many.
I work late, but there are daysthat I do and I surprise him
(55:59):
and he just runs out of schooland just tackles me.
But with that also becameanother problem.
I mean, I went to go see himget an award and I was told I
was not allowed in school and Itold him that Michigan law
prohibits you from saying that.
(56:20):
There's no law saying I cannotbe in his school in Michigan,
you know, but they have theright being, it's their property
and they told me I couldn't goin and see and I never got to
see my son get an award.
Since then I've talked to theschool administration way up and
they actually said next time tocontact them ahead of time and
they'll make arrangements andallow me to come into school so
(56:40):
I can see it.
I thought that's all I want.
I will literally walk with apolice officer to watch him get
the award and walk out of thebuilding.
I don't care, I just want to beable to see it.
That's part of being a parent.
So that was taken from me onetime and it's not going to
happen again.
I fought that too, so we keepfighting forward and knocking
(57:02):
down walls.
Amy (57:03):
I've actually contemplated switching my career to law
because of what we've beenthrough and still debating it.
But it's a heavy kind of soresubject in this house because
it's a lot of schooling and wehave a lot on our plate already
and I'll say that, with herbeing part of these groups, this
gave her a voice.
Joe (57:20):
This gave her people to talk to.
Part of these groups, this gaveher a voice.
This gave her people to talk toand, honestly, it opened up
this podcast because she broughtup to me and I originally told
her no, I don't want to do it.
And then I was sitting intraffic one day and I texted her
and said what's the name of thepodcast?
Because she knows I lovepodcasts.
There's other podcasts I listento that kind of along the same
lines and I listen to your guys'podcast and I loved it.
(57:44):
And that's when I reached out toJason.
I wanted to learn more aboutyou two.
I want to know who I wastalking to.
That's my self-trust issues isI want to know who I was talking
to and I just want to say thankyou to you guys for giving not
only me, but giving everybodyelse a platform who may not be
in my situation, but maybe inany situation a platform to come
(58:06):
out and speak, because thesevoices need to be heard and it's
a large group and we need tostand up.
And one of the biggestinfluences in my life is Jelly
Roll, the music artist and whathe's been through.
He's brought to life a lot ofhis life and how he's rebuilt
his life and people aren'tjudging him for it, and that's
(58:30):
kind of where I'm at now is.
I want people to know what'shappened and how.
You know, this is affecting menot only for the six months I
was in jail.
It's affecting me 15 yearslater and I said that 10 more
years ago and yet my wife andson they were never part of that
, but, yeah, it's affecting themand that's not right.
So that's why I agreed to dothis was because you guys, your
(58:52):
background and that I'm verygrateful for you gave me an
opportunity to share my story.
I hope it gives somebody hope Iwas able to rebound and rebuild
my life.
My brother always says it's notabout how many times you get
knocked down, it's about howhard you fight to get back up on
your feet and that's what I'mdoing, Amber.
Jason (59:14):
I don't think we need a wrap up.
I think Joe did it.
Amber (59:17):
I don't even have to ask my final question.
That was so beautiful and Ijust want to thank you guys.
This is the first time thatwe've had a couple come on
together and we've covered a lotof ground, particularly about
family life on the registry.
That we have not covered beforeand I know for me personally
(59:40):
it's been very meaningful to meas a person who lives under
similar oppression, and I'm veryexcited to hear that you're
taking your power back, becausethis is one of the worst
injustices of the registry isthat people don't believe that
they deserve a place at thetable.
(01:00:02):
So whether that table is infamily life, whether it's at
your kid's school, whether thattable is criminal legal reform,
we need to recognize harm asharm.
So whatever harm was causedduring, whatever brought someone
into the legal system, is dealtwith in a certain way.
(01:00:24):
But what we're not payingattention to is the state harm
that is happening from thesystem, and so your story is a
part of that, and so manystories of the guests that we've
seen here in advocacy andaround the country.
So it's really great to havehad you here, jason.
(01:00:45):
Any last thoughts before we go.
Jason (01:00:48):
I'm just going to say thank you Amy, Thank you Joe,
and until next time, Amber.
Amber (01:00:54):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (01:00:59):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
AmplifiedVoicesshow.
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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.