March 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Discover the story of Joe, a former high school football star, whose life took a dramatic turn, as a young man looking for purpose in unhealthy ways, Amber and Jason speak with Joe about his early influences, the choices he made, his experience with incarceration and his journey to accountability and repair.
From the exuberance of youth to the stark reality of prison life, Joe reveals how he grappled with incarceration and the decisions that led to his convictions, including the moment he was confronted by law enforcement. Joe's candid account provides an honest perspective on the stigmas surrounding sex offense convictions and the racial dynamics at play in the justice system.
Now a passionate advocate for change through self-compassion, self-reflection and positive goal setting Joe is on a mission to help others navigate their paths to recovery and reintegration into society through his Pathfinder program. He shares his aspirations to foster community support and accountability for those impacted by the criminal legal system, emphasizing that everyone has a story worth telling and a more positive path available.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:33):
Hello, welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices.
I'm your host, jason, here withmy co-host, amber.
Hello Amber.
Amber (00:39):
Hello.
Jason (00:41):
And today, amber, we are recording from Harrisburg,
pennsylvania, a special liverecording and we have a special
guest, joe.
Hello Joe.
Joe (00:53):
How are you doing Jason?
How are you Amber?
Amber (00:55):
I'm doing really great.
Jason (00:57):
So, Joe, we're going to start off the way we usually do
it.
I'm going to ask you to tell usa little bit about your life
before you entered the criminallegal system and what brought
you into it.
Joe (01:06):
Well, I'm from Downingtown, pennsylvania, and it's a town
in Pennsylvania where footballis king, and I played
quarterback for Downingtown andI was the prince of our town at
one point in time.
I was a really well-likedindividual.
Growing up, I was very kind toeverybody and I ended up
committing a crime.
(01:27):
I tried to start a cult aftermy career had ended.
Jason (01:29):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, so you go from
like football star yes, localcommunity hero, to start Now,
what made you think like?
Joe (01:40):
start a cult.
It started at probably aboutage five when I watched my
brother and his friends bringinggirls in and out of our house
About five years old watchingthat and mimicking everything
that my brother had did.
My brother was like my Godgrowing up, so I watched him and
the behaviors were fostered inme early.
And it's not like I had a badupbringing from my parents, my
(02:00):
mother and my father.
I was a black kid from thesuburbs so I was fortunate
enough to have both in my life,but the behaviors in me.
I knew at an early age that Ihad a different sense of control
over most of my friends andmost of my peers.
So I used my athletic abilityand I realized that at a young
age that people were easilymanipulated by my words.
(02:23):
So I ran with that andeventually it became what it
became.
Jason (02:28):
So an example what are we talking about?
People, was there alcohol?
Was drugs involved Drugs?
Joe (02:34):
alcohol, a bad philosophy that I learned and applied and
had people believe in.
That was truth.
It actually came from a styleof music that I grew up
listening to.
It's the the MemphisUnderground.
So I took a lot of the lyricsand I applied everything in life
and I thought that I was goingto be able to create,
essentially, a family, when inactuality, this family was more
(02:58):
like a cult rather than a familywith beneficial ending.
This ending was gonna benothing deathly, nothing crazy,
but I really didn't have a planor anything to end this.
I was so young, but it was allbecause I fostered so much pain
in my heart because I didn'twant to be this athlete.
Amber (03:17):
Right, so, wow.
So I'm thinking about.
You're saying that you hadsiblings, that you were
mimicking behaviors from.
You were living in the suburbs,so you said you had two
siblings.
Is that right, okay?
And so you're a football star.
You start to notice that you'rewell-liked, your words can have
(03:38):
power, things like that.
So I'm still trying to find outhow we get from.
Okay, I'm going to math class,right, okay?
So I'm like today I'm going tomath class and I'm going to the
game after and I'm transitioning.
Did that feel like a gradualthing?
(03:58):
Did you just realize one day itwas happening?
Joe (04:01):
Let's unpack that a little bit.
This probably started when Iwas in my youth.
I was always obsessed with likefootage of world leaders and
dictators and like the powerthat they had over other
individuals.
I was always obsessed with thatas a child.
So it really started in myyouth and it gradually went all
the way into that phase of mylife.
(04:22):
So how old are you at thispoint that we're talking?
Probably seven or eight yearsold.
Jason (04:25):
No, no, no, once you're like post-football, oh,
post-football I was 23 years old.
Are you asking them to dothings that are illegal Um?
Joe (04:33):
at first no.
Jason (04:34):
At first no.
Joe (04:35):
Yeah, and then in the beginning at first, no, in the
beginning was all I was asked tomentor the student athlete
population.
So everything was good naturedin the beginning and I had
things that I was going throughin my life and in my household,
and then things with havingchildren with a person that I
didn't want to have kids with.
So really it was ultimatelylike a pity party for myself
(04:55):
Having children with someone youdidn't want to have children
with.
Yeah, I had a one night standwith a person and she ended up
getting pregnant, and then herand I it was all just a bunch of
things that compiled on.
Jason (05:08):
Was she part of the cult?
No, so she's out.
So you have.
You have a woman that's outsideof the cult.
You have a.
You have a child with her, andis the child living with you?
Joe (05:21):
yes, we're both living together.
She's living with you and, yes,we're both living together.
She's living with you.
Jason (05:24):
And then she ended up getting pregnant and you're
doing this cult thing and whenyou're talking about your
followers, yeah.
So it was like that's my dayjob, I go home to my family and
then I have these followers.
Joe (05:34):
I was actually working as a custodian in the school
district, and that's where Ibasically started everything out
.
I was working as a custodian inthe school district where I
played football at and Ibasically started it.
There Are your followers minors.
Some of them were students andsome of them were out of school
and, yes, they were minors inthe beginning.
Jason (05:54):
So mostly minors that you're and you're you're
relatively young at that point,still yourself you're 20s, 21,
22, but you have minors that arethat you'reors, that have that
worship you because you were thefootball star.
Yeah, the old football star,yeah, I think I saw that in a
movie.
Amber (06:13):
So of the things that you're describing, that sort of
you were going through.
You have this situation whereyou're starting a family earlier
than you thought you would, butyou mentioned sort of other
things.
Talk about that a little bit,if you feel comfortable.
Joe (06:31):
I witnessed a lot sexually in my house growing up, even
though I had a really goodupbringing I can't stress that
enough but mimicking mybrother's behavior, it really
turned me into something that hedidn't know that this was going
to end up happening to me.
He thought this was normalbehavior.
This is how I treat my brother.
My brother's no longer alive,but this is how I'm supposed to.
(06:52):
You know my brother.
I'm showing him how to be a man, and this and that because our
father worked two jobs.
So my vision of a man, besideswatching my dad come home from
work, my vision of a man was mybrother, my older brother.
Amber (07:04):
So Okay, and so you graduate high school.
You're working in the school.
What did aspirations forcollege, or was that something
that was out of reach?
Joe (07:17):
My brother and I we started a music group and we were DJ
and techno music and we traveledall over.
We traveled to about ninedifferent countries.
We were DJing techno music andwe traveled all over.
We traveled to about ninedifferent countries.
We played music and stuffeverywhere.
So my life really didn't lookthat bleak.
I really had kind of life bythe blank, you can say it.
Jason (07:35):
You can say it.
We have a little conversation,I feel like I had life.
Joe (07:38):
It's really hard for me to actually even explain the
monster that was.
You had life by the balls.
You wanted to say it, man.
Jason (07:45):
All right, even explained the monster that was life by
the balls.
You wanted to say it, man, allright, go ahead, all right.
So if you're looking at it atthat point, if I, if I saw you
in those years, you would sayI'm, I'm it yeah, right so right
, I have a good life.
Yeah, uh, you know, I've gotthe music stuff going on, I've
got people following me, I'vegot this job, I've, I've got a
kid.
Everything's good, all right sowhat happened?
Joe (08:06):
I started feeling sorry for myself.
My career with football didn'tstart to go the way that it went
, and I had nowhere else to look.
I didn't want to go to college,I didn't want to do this.
All I wanted to do was playfootball.
So I thought.
When I went to prison Irealized that that wasn't what I
wanted to do either.
So I was so confused at thattime period in life I couldn't
(08:27):
find my direct path and I kindof lost myself, and it's really
saddening to think about howdeep I lost myself in that
moment.
All I had to do was ask forhelp, and I didn't know how to
do that.
Jason (08:42):
So if someone said to you what do you want to be when you
grow up?
Joe (08:48):
You'd say I didn't know how to do that.
So someone said to you what doyou want to be when you grow up?
You'd say I don't know at thatpoint in time what I would say
if I want you know.
When they would ask that, Iwould say, um, I wanted to be a
football player, so I thought,okay were you trying to to?
play?
Yeah, I was actually.
I was actually trying to walkon at a local university to punt
because I knew I could have gotmy film out there and the
footage out there, but none ofthat transpired.
Because of my drug use.
I was afraid to let them reallyknow I was struggling with
(09:11):
alcohol, psychedelic drugs, weedwomen.
I was really struggling at thistime period.
Amber (09:17):
Film, courage, and what was your first exposure to those
things, alex?
Joe (09:20):
Jones, probably when I was about 11.
Like, I started smoking weedwhen I was about 11.
But my whole life I had watchedparties.
Parents didn't really drinkmuch, my parents didn't smoke
weed, but I watched my brotherand his friends.
Jason (09:34):
So it's what you knew.
Joe (09:35):
Yeah, that's it.
Jason (09:38):
So you had this issue.
You were already strugglingwith substances.
Yeah.
And then you were getting yourfollowers to do the same yeah,
they would smoke weed andthey're young yeah and so um,
what so?
What happened?
So?
Is that how you ended uparrested?
Joe (09:53):
no, I um, the encounter took place between me and one of
my victims and, um, she hadwent and told one of her friends
at basketball practice thenight after everything had
happened.
So her friend had notified thebasketball coach and the
basketball coach had notifiedthe principal.
The principal had let thepolice know that, hey, we think
that something happened and thatpolice officer and I had a
(10:15):
pretty good rapport with oneanother.
He called me and he asked me tocome to the station.
My mom raised me.
Good, I knew that I didsomething wrong.
Amber (10:23):
That's what landed me in prison for 13 years one time
okay and so, um, just to beclear, there was harm that
occurred, absolutely, betweenyourself and an individual that
was attending the school,absolutely, okay.
And you get a phone call fromthe police and they say come
(10:44):
down to the station.
And what are you thinking inthis moment?
Joe (10:49):
I'm scared as hell.
I've never been in a situationlike this.
I didn't realize that it wouldget this far.
I didn't have the wisdom to seethat far into my life.
That it was.
I knew it was going to crash,but I didn't know it was going
to be this severe.
So in that moment I just becamefearful and didn't know what to
do, didn't tell anyone, didn'ttalk to anyone and I went to the
(11:10):
station on my own.
Jason (11:12):
And just to backtrack for one second you're 23 at that
point, so you're 23.
You have, how old is your?
Joe (11:18):
child.
My kids at the time are two andone.
I have two children.
Jason (11:21):
So you have a two-year-old, a one-year-old,
you have a girlfriend, and youcall down to the police station
and you know something's up, andthen what transpires?
What did they?
Joe (11:31):
Oh, they called me to the police station and they
questioned me.
I told them you know the truthabout everything that happened
and the things that didn'thappen, how this happened, why
this transpired.
And the police officer told mebasically to sit there and when
I came came, when he came back,he had an arrest warrant for me
and I didn't see the streets foranother 14 years so, um, we're
gonna, we're gonna slow thatdown a little bit, but, um, you
(11:54):
know, you'd never seen.
Like don't talk to the policemessages yeah, but it was a lot
different when I was placed inthat like when I was placed in
that predicament it wascompletely different.
Like all the law and orderstuff and don't talk to the
police it went out the window.
Why?
Because of fear.
I was really afraid and I feltlike my mom said listen, if you
ever get caught up, you have totell the truth.
(12:15):
Like you don't lie to me, sodon't lie to other people.
I knew that the cat was out ofthe bag.
Jason (12:20):
So it didn't matter what you had heard before you were
scared.
Joe (12:23):
Yeah, plus, I didn't want to be living that life either
anymore.
Amber (12:27):
And you knew the harm that was being caused was in
fact harm.
Yes.
So in your mind you're hearingyour mother saying to you when
you've done wrong, you'regetting caught up.
And so in your mind you're like, okay, well, I'm going to go
down and perhaps, if I'm tellingthe truth about the things that
(12:53):
have happened that will end upin my favor 100%.
Joe (12:55):
Right, that's an awesome way to put it Right.
Amber (12:56):
So you know, in systems that might work differently, or
in rational thought one mightthink that.
But just to be making it clear,rational thought one might
think that, but just to bemaking it clear.
There was no indication in yourmind like, oh, it was just a
thing, I didn't cause any harm,that was not what was going
through your head.
Jason (13:14):
Okay, and so your experience was different from
what you had expected it to be.
Definitely Okay.
So you skipped over 14 years inyour conversation, right?
So you ended up like do theysend you home that day?
Joe (13:30):
No, I went straight to the Chester County prison on
February 5th of 2010.
And I never saw my house untilNovember 9th of 2023.
Jason (13:38):
So I'm sorry, so I'll do those years in a second.
But so you said to them youbasically said I'm guilty and
they put you in a second.
But so you said to them youbasically said I'm guilty and
they put you in a cell.
Amber (13:48):
And so they set bail.
Joe (13:51):
They gave me a bail at it was $45,000 in the beginning and
they added more charges on acorruption of minors to.
Actually I was bailed out forseven days.
My mom paid a bunch of money toget me bailed out.
I was bailed out for seven days.
So they added on two corruptionof minors charges because of
her two friends being involvedin this.
So they said it was corruptionof minors that I asked them to
(14:11):
smoke weed with me, I asked themto drink a 40 with me and I
solicited her one friend that ifyou come out west we can have a
relationship.
So they gave me criminalsolicitation and two corruption
of minors charges to take awaymy bail.
And then they set my bail atlike 75 000.
But I was advised then by likemy uncles and stuff who had done
time to just stay in prison andjust fight because this time
(14:34):
could actually be accredited towhatever they give you.
So that was the advice that Ihad taken at that point.
Jason (14:40):
And then you, so you stayed in how long before you
were actually sentenced?
18 months, okay, so that's.
Joe (14:48):
I'm sure that, Because I went to trial and my district
attorney was pregnant, so shekept continuing, continuing,
continuing, continuing.
It was literally like 11continuances Each month.
Basically it was a continuanceon their behalf, but my lawyer
never.
He never let me know any ofthat type of stuff.
Jason (15:05):
During that 18 months you must.
Did you think that there was achance you would be found not
guilty?
Joe (15:11):
and let out A chance that I would be found not guilty on a
certain charge that they hadgave me.
You know the other charges Iadmitted to.
So that's why I ended up goingto trial was to fight the
involuntary deviant sexualintercourse charge because I
admitted to the statutory sexualassault.
I admitted to the criminalsolicitation.
I didn't know the law.
Amber (15:28):
So you're incarcerated, you're trying to make sense of
the system, you're trying tomake sense of the wide scope of
charges that are being broughtagainst you.
And so during that 18 months,you were in jail.
Intro (15:45):
Yes.
Amber (15:45):
Okay.
So then sentencing comes, oryou went to trial, yep, okay.
And so tell us a little bitabout that.
What happens during trial?
Joe (15:59):
The voir dire process in Chester County was probably the
most confusing process, I guess,because I didn't really see too
many people that looked like mein the process.
So from the beginning I wasafraid I didn't feel like I had
anyone who could possiblyrepresent me in the jury.
So it was really coveredbecause I was an athlete, so
(16:21):
everything was in the newspapers.
Everyone knew in the prison mysituation.
But I was really candid andopen about my situation when I
was an athlete.
So everything was in thenewspapers.
Everyone knew in the prison mysituation, but I was really
candid and open about mysituation.
When I was in prison I saidthis is what happened and I
never really tried to mask it.
I couldn't Everyone read thenewspaper and everything was on
the front.
So the process of trial, Iguess, is like they would call
me over, they would havecontinuances and I would sit
(16:43):
down in the bullpen, go upstairs, sit down in the bullpen, go
upstairs and then the day you'retold 13 years.
13 years but I ended up doing 14because parole.
You know how they.
I got a parole hit when I wasin prison, but 13 years the day
that they told me about 13 years, I look back.
My mother was dying and mybrother was also dying.
(17:04):
They were, my brother was sickand my mom had stage four colon
cancer, but they wouldn't allowboth of them in the court
because they said it wouldinfluence the jury to say that
oh, we feel bad for his mother,we feel bad for his brother
because they're sick.
Jason (17:17):
We couldn't have that as a society.
We couldn't see you as a humanbeing with family right, but 13
years hits you.
I mean, when they say 13 years,I couldn't even imagine because
I had to look back at myself.
Joe (17:32):
I'm like 13 years.
Kindergarten to 12th grade is13 years.
So I went from being 5 to 18,13 years, 23 to I'll be out when
I'm 36, 37.
I couldn't see it and all Icould see was my mother passing
away and my brother Like that's.
The only thing that I could seewas that.
Amber (17:50):
And so at that moment, clearly, what you're not
thinking about, you know you'rethinking about this system and
what's happening now.
What you're not thinking aboutis your own actions.
Right, is your own actionsright?
So then you're sentenced, andwhere do you go from there?
(18:11):
Do you end up in a state prison?
Yep.
Joe (18:15):
After I was sentenced I went back to Chester County for
maybe about four or five weeksand after that they call you up
and the guard will just say thatmeans you're going upstate.
So at that time we had to go togreater first.
So I went to greaterford.
I was there for about two weeksand then from greaterford they
sent me to camp hill, thenclassification.
Camp hill at that time was aclassification jail so you would
(18:37):
go get all your medical stuff,your psych stuff, all that, so
then they could send you to whatat that time was called your
home jail.
So I was at Camp Hill for eightmonths.
I actually thought that thatwas going to become my home jail
.
Then I was snatched out and Iwas sent to Laurel Highlands,
which is in Somerset County,which actually was prison utopia
at the time, and it reallysaved me, because I don't think
(18:58):
that I would have lastedmentally in the other harsher
prisons in PA.
Laurel Highlands actually savedme at that time.
Amber (19:05):
So, for those folks who are not familiar with
Pennsylvania, because we havelisteners all over the country
how far was the prison that youended up in away from where you
lived it?
Joe (19:18):
was 354 miles exact from my house, from where I was born,
but it was on the same road.
It was on Route 30.
So I would look out same road.
It was on Route 30.
So I would look out the windowand I would see Route 30 and I
would think 350.
Some miles away is where mymother and father are.
Amber (19:32):
Did that impact their ability to come and visit you In
a?
Joe (19:37):
way it did because my mother was sick at the time but
I had a lot of love and support.
So they did come and visit, butnot like it would have been if
I was at SCI Phoenix, which is30 miles from my house, or at
SCI Chester, which is 30 milesfrom my house.
Jason (19:50):
So once you landed there, were you there the whole time.
Joe (19:53):
I was there.
I was at Laurel Highlands formy first eight years and then I
transferred to another facilitynon-disciplinary, but it was a
transfer because I wanted to getcloser to home.
My father had gotten sick whenI was incarcerated.
My mother had died in 2013, andthen my father had gotten sick
and he needed a kidneytransplant.
So they transferred me to theEastern District but sent me 100
(20:13):
miles away from my house.
How old was your mother whenshe passed away.
Jason (20:16):
My mother was 61.
So your mother's 61.
It must have hit.
I mean you're in prison.
It did, I mean you're in prison.
Joe (20:21):
It did.
I mean, I was a mommy's boygrowing up, so like it really I
went through a fall Period iswhat I call it of like four
years of just existing.
I go to the law library, but Iwas just existing.
I go to the weight room, but Iwas just existing.
I go play basketball orfootball, but I was just
existing.
I wasn't obtaining any type ofinformation, I was merely
existing.
(20:42):
And then my brother had diedsix months after that.
Jason (20:45):
Oh my goodness, so we have.
Joe (20:47):
So your mother passes away, your brother passes away, and
now your father's sick and thenmy sister raised my kids for
like the first six years that Iwas incarcerated.
Then their mother came backinto their life after her
struggle with addiction and allthat.
So it was like a war with mysister.
Every time I will call.
It was never good news.
It was always something aboutlike my children's situation and
(21:08):
where they were going to beplaced, and it was just it was
hectic for a while as you'resitting in the prison and the
time is ticking on, are youthinking like how things could?
have been different, 100% everyday.
That was the thought I'd wakeup every single day.
I couldn't look in the mirror.
And when I started to look inthe mirror again, that's what I
(21:28):
that's.
Things should have beendifferent.
I should have made the rightchoices in life.
I knew what I was doing waswrong.
Jason (21:36):
Even even though what you did was wrong and even though
you caused harm.
Do you think that there couldhave been a different way to
approach you, versus locking youup?
Do you think locking you uphelped keep you away from?
Keeping you away from peopleWas the right thing to do?
Joe (21:56):
I believe there were definitely therapeutic methods.
Of course I should have donethe 11 and a half to 23 months
that they should have given me.
According to the basicsentencing matrix in
Pennsylvania, the crimes that Idid commit At the max the crimes
that I committed was 11.5 to 23months.
Jason (22:14):
Do you think so?
I got two questions.
Do you think race played afactor in your case?
Joe (22:19):
100%.
And I'm not even the type topull the race card, but 100%.
Jason (22:24):
So I'm going to ask you a part B like how so?
And number two do you think thefact that you were this
football star played a role?
So talk about how, who you weremade a difference in terms of
how you were treated.
Joe (22:41):
I never really was mentioned that way.
Jason (22:43):
That was cool, I like that we like to do it a little
differently.
Joe (22:46):
Ask you in terms of how you were treated.
I never really was asked inthat way.
That was cool.
I like that.
We like to do it a littledifferently.
Ask you, my lawyer actuallytold me.
He said that this is a raceissue.
There are certain people in ouroffice who let me know that
this is completely a race issue.
This was around the electionand my victim's family was
something big in our county soand it's known that they don't
(23:08):
really like my kind, they don'treally like the guys in this
mountain, and that's somethingthat was known.
I knew it was a race issue whenI looked at 200 and something
Was the victim white?
Yes, okay, 100%.
Amber (23:23):
So I really appreciate you so much sharing that.
I think that I do want to asksomething of you, just because
I'm needing this and feelingthis in my body right now.
I would like for us to refer tothe person who was harmed as
the person who was harmed,rather than flattening them into
a victim.
I appreciate you being sotransparent and open.
(23:47):
What was going on with you andyou know the thought process and
being vulnerable in this space,because these are difficult
conversations to have.
And when I think about themedia and the role that the
media plays, as I'm hearing yourstory and I'm thinking about it
and I'm reflecting on my ownstory and knowing that there is
(24:10):
a component of race right,there's a component of this
football star that was so wellloved, and then the person who
was harmed looking verydifferent from you, the people
in the system looking verydifferent from you, I really
appreciate you sharing thosethings you said.
My lawyer mentioned it to me.
(24:31):
Had it occurred to you at allprior to that?
Joe (24:35):
Definitely, because I'm just aware of the county that I
live in and I know how thesystem works in our county.
Plus, there were about three orfour other cases like around
the same time and the sentenceswere like unbelievably complete
differences, the harshness of mycrime to some of the harshness
(24:57):
of other crimes.
It didn't match up with thetime that the people were
receiving.
And then I would see these guysand I would know oh, he's that
color.
Amber (25:07):
Right, you can say.
You can say, we can say okay,he was white and his victim was
black.
Joe (25:13):
That's why the time was that way.
It's not just a black and whitecase.
Jason (25:17):
So, joe, listen, we're not trying to sugarcoat things.
We want to talk about what'sreal, what's real for you and
what your experience was Right.
Talk to us.
Amber (25:29):
So how did that?
I mean sort of knowing thatagain, if we start to talk about
, like, how can we stop cyclesof sexual harm, right, and we're
thinking about if you are upagainst a system that is not
treating you fairly, you'rethinking about that, right, and
we're thinking about if you areup against a system that is not
treating you fairly, you'rethinking about that right,
because that is real harm, thedisproportionate ways that we
(25:52):
handle things.
So that is creating a lack ofsafety in your body, a lack of
safety in your life, which isnot having you think about.
Well, you know, the harm that Icaused was real to someone else
, right?
Am I characterizing thatcorrectly?
(26:13):
So when you're incarcerated,you mentioned that a particular
facility saved your life.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about that.
What does that mean?
Were there services there foryou.
Joe (26:25):
Were there people that you met there, right, people that
were at Laurel Highlands.
They were classified inPennsylvania as level two.
So a lot of guys that are leveltwo, they're not dangerous.
Really, like the way that I putit, anyone who's classified as
a level two, this person's notdangerous.
Regardless of what they've done, he or she has done enough to
(26:48):
receive a level two clearance.
So at the time when I got sentthere, laurel Highlands was a
level two facility.
The people that I met thereguided me through prison in a
way that I needed it.
I couldn't have went somewherelike SCI Green or I couldn't
have went somewhere like SCICold Township because they were
violence-based prisons at thetime.
Laurel Highlands I was theremaybe eight and a half years,
(27:10):
like I said, and I might've seentwo fights, so there was really
no violence there which allowedme to have a clearer mind, to
receive anything that was due tome in treatment.
Like that made a completedifference because when I ended
up at cold township, treatmentwas different because there was
so much violence around.
I'm worried about watching myback.
I'm not worried about what thisfacilitator is saying, right, I
(27:33):
, I'm known to have a sexualcrime like anybody could do
anything, even though no one in13 and a half years guys would
ask me I didn't know, that'swhat you were here for and we we
would talk about it openly.
I never had anybody be like youeffing this or you effing
molester.
None of that has ever.
None of that happened while Iwas in prison and I was super
fortunate for that to not happen, because I watched other guys
(27:55):
go through complete hell Hell.
Amber (27:58):
And when you say, like you know, there were people that
were there that were helpingyou walk through, were those
individuals who had been therelonger, saw that this is the new
person coming in, offered yousome sort of warm accompaniment
yeah uh talk about that it wasmainly the people who had done a
little bit of time andunderstood my situation.
Joe (28:19):
After they would speak to me they would realize that I
wasn't like the other youngerguys.
I could.
I could listen.
That's what the guys recognized.
I listened and I took.
I took constructive criticismwell, so the guys gravitated to
that.
They liked teaching me, theyliked showing me new things
because I liked learning.
So I listened.
That's what I.
(28:39):
That's where I got the bestadvice from.
But most of the guys either haddone 10 years, 15 years or some
of them I hung out with wereguys that had life sentences.
Jason (28:49):
So you talked at the beginning about having followers
.
Yeah, right, did you havefollowers while you were in
prison?
Joe (28:58):
Yeah, After a while it became that because I was a good
athlete.
So anyone who's a good athletein prison, it's like junior high
.
If anyone not even high school,it's like junior high.
Anyone who's a good athlete inprison, it doesn't matter what
you did in jail.
It doesn't matter.
So if you were a sex offenderor a rapist or whatever you want
to be considered so again.
Jason (29:18):
I'm going to just stop you for a second and we're going
to go back to the labels, right?
Joe (29:23):
So if you're someone who committed a sex offense, if
you're someone who committed asex offense, if you're someone
who committed a sex offense inprison, if you're good at sports
and you're okay in the lawlibrary, you're condescending
which is sad.
Amber (29:35):
And then I wanted to unpack another thing that I
heard you say, that when youwere in a level two facility you
were with people who were notdangerous.
This sort of spurred somethinking in me and again, you
know, I'm just kind of thinkingout loud the idea that people
are inherently dangerous or notdangerous.
(29:57):
Do you think that that's astatic thing or do you think
that that is something thatfluctuates?
Joe (30:01):
and changes.
It depends on which environmentyou put a person in, because
when you put a person likemyself, who's not really
dangerous, if you put me in aplace like Cold Township, I may
have to force or becomedangerous to protect myself.
So I actually believe that it'sthe environment that's fostered
around a person that can bringthat out of a person, because
(30:23):
I've seen guys come into theprisons who I know never fought,
but they didn't have a choicethere right when you say the
environment.
Amber (30:31):
Did that have a lot to do with the culture of the way
people were treated?
The layout, the, what do youthink created an environment?
Joe (30:39):
the school.
Nothing was connected.
It was treated like a campus.
It wasn't like one static unit,it it was a bunch of different
buildings.
They had the track in themiddle.
It made everyone feel like theywere at a school rather than
being in a prison.
Except there were bars andrazor wire that if you were
conscious enough you would seethat, but if you didn't look at
(31:00):
that, you almost felt like youwere at like a campus.
Amber (31:04):
So when you were interacting with the staff, what
was that like?
Because the experiences that wehear from a lot of people has
to do with the dehumanizationthat happens to someone when
they're incarcerated.
Was there a difference betweenthe interactions with the staff
at that facility and thesubsequent ones?
(31:25):
How did that work?
Joe (31:26):
I actually like I had maybe two guards in my whole 14 years
be like negative towards me,but I watched them be negative
towards other people.
I watched staff.
So really at laurel highlandsthe staff, they were pretty cool
.
I actually have to at everyfacility.
I never really had too muchtrouble with the staff with
myself but I watched how theyare with other individuals.
(31:50):
They treated me because I was aCPS, I was a peer assistant and
I was a certified peerspecialist, so they treated me a
little different and sometimesI didn't like that treatment.
Amber (32:02):
Did that cause problems for you?
Joe (32:04):
Sometimes it made guys think like, well, why does this
person treat you this way andthey treat us that way?
And I would have to explain tothem.
Jason (32:14):
Joe, you said you were sentenced to 13 years but was
there for 14.
You told us a little bit at thebeginning.
I mean, I've heard of peoplewho are sentenced to 13 and then
they serve like half the time.
How come you had to serve notonly all of it, but a little bit
?
Joe (32:32):
more.
See my actual time.
In Pennsylvania they give usdouble time, so I was sentenced
to a 13 to 26.
So my actual sentence is 26.
I see, so you actually servedhalf your time.
Jason (32:43):
Yes, I served half my time Plus another year Plus
another year because I wasn'tfinished a program and I'm sorry
.
Joe (32:49):
what year did you come out?
Last year?
November 9th of 2023.
2023.
Jason (32:53):
So you were.
You had a lot of years prior toCOVID-19 pandemic, but you were
there.
Yep, your final years wereduring the beginning of that
pandemic 422 days.
Joe (33:05):
In a cell with 15 minutes out of the cell, you had to
choose 10 minutes.
In a cell with 15 minutes outof the cell, you had to choose
10 minutes for a shower or fiveminutes for a phone, or vice
versa.
Jason (33:12):
So your life towards the end was drastically different.
It was strange, and did thatimpact your ability to finish
that program.
Was that why you were there anextra year?
Joe (33:21):
Yes and no.
The person that I harmedactually reached out to the
Attorney General's office andwrote that I didn't commit the
IDSI charge.
So I possessed all thispaperwork from the attorney
general, the district attorney'soffice.
They had wrote me to file anemergency PCRA.
So I filed this emergency PCRAbut I can't do the program
because I'm not admitting to thecrime that I'm there for, but
(33:44):
I'm admitting to everything elseadmitting to the crime that I'm
there for, but I'm admitting toeverything else, right?
So in the midst of that, theytold the person that I harmed
that if she comes to court totestify then a perjury charge
would be thrown against her.
So she disappeared and it leftme in limbo where I would have
actually finished the program ayear before.
I want to make sure.
Jason (34:03):
I understand.
So she wanted to come forwardand say you got it wrong.
However, if she came forwardand said you got it wrong, then
she could be arrested herselfand get into trouble for a
perjury charge, and so they usedthat rather than just doing the
(34:24):
right thing and coming forward.
It backfired on you Completely.
Amber (34:29):
Well and it backfired on her as well.
Joe (34:32):
Because she wanted to live in truth, she mustered the
courage and strength to come outand say listen, I know what
happened.
Like this is what happened tome.
Like that strength that sheused to come and go to the
district attorney's office onher own, Like this all appeared
out of the blue.
Good for her, yes, yes.
Amber (34:53):
Right, and that meant that when you went to the parole
board, that you had notfinished the program and
therefore you were not grantedparole because you were serving
that 13 to 26.
And so, for those who don'tunderstand or haven't been with
the system because we havelisteners of all kinds what
would happen is, if you areserving 13 to 26, when that 13
(35:17):
year comes, you have theopportunity to go in front of
the parole board and they cansay why?
Yes, you've done what you'resupposed to do.
So talk a little bit about thatprocess, because it's almost in
many ways people describe it aslike retrying the crime,
reopening old wounds after somany years.
(35:39):
Talk a little bit about that.
Joe (35:41):
Well, it's a PA.
We have what they callpre-parole, what they call
pre-parole.
So before you actually see theparole board, they give you four
months.
Before that they have a fewmeetings with your counselor,
your unit manager, the personthat's on the block with you,
your unit manager and some staffthat are there, and you answer
a bunch of questions.
You go over everything thatyou're supposed to talk about at
(36:01):
the parole hearing, but most ofthe stuff in pre-parole doesn't
align with what you hear inparole, because it's a human
endeavor.
They're not going to ask youthe same questions that these
people ask you from four monthsago.
So really it's like you have togo up there and just be able to
speak, and not only just speakconvey the language that they
taught you.
So whatever you learn inprogramming, you better remember
(36:24):
how to convey that message backto them, or else if you don't
speak their language, it'sconsidered manipulating the
system, which is also a parolehit and can give you another six
to 12 months to do on top ofthat.
So if you're not educated orcan't speak in front of people,
you are like way back.
Amber (36:44):
So that puts people who might maybe someone has an
intellectual disability, Maybesomeone has a fear of speaking
like, yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, I appreciate you sharingthat.
That puts different people indifferent populations at a
significant disadvantage.
So you spent the 14 years.
(37:06):
Tell us a little bit aboutrelease.
What does it look like whenyou're released?
It's only been a year, right?
Joe (37:13):
Yeah, one year.
Amber (37:14):
So what happens there?
Joe (37:15):
I was fortunate enough to come home to a community that
welcomed me and a family network, but it was different.
My mother wasn't here, mybrother wasn't here.
Life was completely different.
I mean, it was a complete shock.
Technology had changed.
My friends had gotten older, mykids grew.
Jason (37:33):
Film Courage.
I can imagine you go in and youthink, 13 years, I'm going to
just hit pause and then when Icome out, everything is going to
be the same, and I'll juststart over.
Joe (37:42):
I come out with the heaviest label in the universe,
regardless of how much support Ihad.
I have the heaviest label onearth over Like, regardless of
how much support I had.
I have the heaviest label onearth over top of my head.
Jason (37:53):
And did your father pass?
Joe (37:54):
No, my father's actually doing good.
He's actually healthy and he'sdoing well.
He received a kidney transplant.
He's healthy and living.
Amber (38:02):
That's amazing.
And so you said you came out tofamily support.
Did you have any strugglestrying to find a place to stay?
Were there any barriers?
No, I didn't have any.
Joe (38:22):
You were allowed to live with your family and through my
t-shirt business.
There was another person whereI was working at that had a
t-shirt business and we werebattling over whose t-shirts
were better in this facility.
Well, I guess I kind of won thebattle.
So a person that I grew up withand loved dearly, and still do
to this day, went to the humanresources and said listen, I
(38:45):
don't feel safe with JoeNicholson working in this
building.
I know his situation and theyknew my situation also, because
I disclosed everything with them.
But she told them that she wasgoing to tell the higher ups and
they basically had to turntheir back on me.
Amber (39:00):
Right.
And so this is a pretty commonstory with folks who are in
reentry with a variety of labelsand convictions, but
particularly for individuals whohave been convicted of a crime
of a sexual nature.
And so what were you feeling inthat moment?
Joe (39:18):
I felt for that moment almost hopeless.
Like I felt hopeless again.
It was like I was just snatchedright out of the water.
But luckily, my partner and mylove of my life, she picked me
up out the mud once again andtold was like I was just
snatched right out of the water.
But luckily, my partner and mylove of my life, she picked me
up out the mud once again andtold me like listen, you are
more important than what ishappening.
That had to happen so you couldgo explain this to people and
(39:39):
let them know what this is likeliving as a reentrant on the
registry.
Amber (39:45):
That's wonderful.
When you say your partner isthis girlfriend, okay, and so
this is obviously a verypositive relationship in your
life and provides support, soyou started to get involved in
advocacy.
Joe (40:00):
Tell us a little bit about that While I was in prison I ran
a couple groups and I created agroup that we would call
Pathfinder while I was in prisonto just help guys find paths,
develop action plans, reentryplans for success.
And I'm actually just trying tobring that concept and program
to the street now that I'm outhere, because I know that it
could help certain individuals,especially those who are just as
(40:22):
impacted, and the guys on theregistry, because I can put
myself in.
I'm in your shoes, right.
I love the name becauseeverybody has their own path.
Amber (40:34):
Yeah okay, we got a whole torches for one another.
All right, that's beautifulwhat does it mean?
Joe (40:38):
like?
Amber (40:38):
you're creating paths to success.
Joe (40:42):
Create really creating paths inward so you can create
outward.
It's's all on you.
Jason (40:46):
Joe pointed to his shirt and it says Pathfinder.
Can you describe it?
Joe (40:53):
There's a torch here because we have to hold the
light up for everybody.
Light is truth.
The Liberty Bell to representPA PA, because we're from
Pennsylvania, and PA also forpeer assistance.
We're supposed to assist ourpeers, you know, and I use the
video game font because I likevideo games.
Amber (41:11):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Joe (41:13):
All right, as you think that exactly that's what you are
, man.
So don't think that you arethis, because you are that.
Amber (41:22):
Is a certain amount of like the Pathfinder program.
Does it speak to keeping eachother accountable?
Joe (41:27):
Not, exactly what it is.
We have to be accountable.
First, we have to look atourselves in the mirror and say
that yes, this is what I did,but allow me to fix that, and I
start with myself fixing this.
Amber (41:39):
Right.
Joe (41:41):
We can't blame anybody outside of me.
We have to start here first, inour center.
Amber (41:47):
So some of that is based on your own experience of
self-reflection and unpackingthe layers inside yourself and
then creating a mechanism toshare that information with
other people so that they canfollow a similar path.
Joe (42:00):
Thank you for explaining my thing clearer than what I could
explain.
That's exactly what it is.
Amber (42:06):
Oh, I love it.
That sounds really exciting.
So you were working on thatwhile you were inside and you
mentioned we're bringing it tothe streets.
What does that mean?
What format does that look?
Joe (42:16):
like, my partner is a retired sergeant of 30 years, a
police sergeant, and we're goinginto Chester County Prison to
basically give like a pre-seasongame, to talk to some of the
guys who are in the prison tosay, hey, do you guys think that
this will work in the facility?
But we want to do this in frontof the staff so they can see
that the inmates and theprisoners they actually want
this to be implemented in theprisons and right here we hope.
(42:40):
We hope that it grows.
I don't see why it won't orshouldn't, or couldn't, and I'm
looking to join other people whoare doing the same thing.
This is not a one team.
It can't be.
It's not a one team effort.
There's too many people.
Amber (42:53):
Right, and so you're basically piloting it and then
you're getting that feedbackfrom the folks that have been in
a similar situation to you.
Jason (43:03):
Okay, Good, do you want to ask your final?
Amber (43:05):
question yeah, so we have really appreciated you coming
and sharing your story and beingso vulnerable today and very
excited for the things to come.
I have one last question foryou before we wrap up our time
together, and that is, you know,thinking back on like your
younger self right, you've donea lot of that inner work.
(43:27):
Is thinking back on youryounger self right, you've done
a lot of that inner work?
If you had a piece of advicefor someone who is at the very
beginning of a journey similarto your own, what would that be?
Joe (43:39):
Look at yourself in the mirror every day and tell
yourself positive affirmation.
Tell yourself positive things,know your value, understand your
worth and realize this isn'tyour worst.
This may be your worst, butit's not going to be your worst.
It's going to get better in thefuture.
Things are going to happenbeneficial for you.
(44:02):
As long as you take that andyou live by that and don't let
anyone sway you from that, youwill be good.
There's no way the universeworks that way.
You cannot stop that.
So if you keep a positivementality, positive things will
happen.
Even if the situation aroundyou is negative, positive things
(44:23):
will happen because it's due toyou.
Amber (44:27):
Love that.
Jason.
You have any last thoughtsbefore we wrap up?
Jason (44:30):
Last thoughts are.
You know, this is the firsttime, amber, that we've recorded
in the same physical presence,right?
Right, yeah, we're justgroundbreaking over here.
So I'm going to tell you, inJudaism we have a prayer for and
I don't usually do this, butit's fun, it's a shechecheanu.
(44:52):
It's like thanks for bringingus to this season.
And it goes, which basicallymeans hey, we're here together,
thanks.
So I want to say thank you.
We got to meet you this morningfor the first time.
I hear your story, joe, fromwhere you've been to where you
(45:16):
are is amazing, incredible.
You know you had your story.
Your story has this.
You know it had a big high andthen a dip, and now you're.
You know you're back on thatclimb and I see great things for
you.
You're bringing it back to thecommunity and it's been a
pleasure to get to know you.
Joe (45:35):
Yeah, I really appreciate this and what you guys are doing
for us, and I think this isnecessary.
So I will always be gratefulfor you guys allowing me to
amplify my voice on you guys'podcast, because this is
necessary for all of us.
It's not just about people inthe registry, it's not just
about people in prison.
This is necessary for everyoneto be able to be heard, and not
(45:58):
just heard listen to Right, lovethat and with that Until next
time, Amber.
Jason (46:03):
We'll see you next time.
Until next time, Amber.
Amber (46:06):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (46:10):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
lifting the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:33):
Hello, welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices.
I'm your host, jason, here withmy co-host, amber.
Hello Amber.
Amber (00:39):
Hello.
Jason (00:41):
And today, amber, we are recording from Harrisburg,
pennsylvania, a special liverecording and we have a special
guest, joe.
Hello Joe.
Joe (00:53):
How are you doing Jason?
How are you Amber?
Amber (00:55):
I'm doing really great.
Jason (00:57):
So, Joe, we're going to start off the way we usually do
it.
I'm going to ask you to tell usa little bit about your life
before you entered the criminallegal system and what brought
you into it.
Joe (01:06):
Well, I'm from Downingtown, pennsylvania, and it's a town
in Pennsylvania where footballis king, and I played
quarterback for Downingtown andI was the prince of our town at
one point in time.
I was a really well-likedindividual.
Growing up, I was very kind toeverybody and I ended up
committing a crime.
(01:27):
I tried to start a cult aftermy career had ended.
Jason (01:29):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, so you go from
like football star yes, localcommunity hero, to start Now,
what made you think like?
Joe (01:40):
start a cult.
It started at probably aboutage five when I watched my
brother and his friends bringinggirls in and out of our house
About five years old watchingthat and mimicking everything
that my brother had did.
My brother was like my Godgrowing up, so I watched him and
the behaviors were fostered inme early.
And it's not like I had a badupbringing from my parents, my
(02:00):
mother and my father.
I was a black kid from thesuburbs so I was fortunate
enough to have both in my life,but the behaviors in me.
I knew at an early age that Ihad a different sense of control
over most of my friends andmost of my peers.
So I used my athletic abilityand I realized that at a young
age that people were easilymanipulated by my words.
(02:23):
So I ran with that andeventually it became what it
became.
Jason (02:28):
So an example what are we talking about?
People, was there alcohol?
Was drugs involved Drugs?
Joe (02:34):
alcohol, a bad philosophy that I learned and applied and
had people believe in.
That was truth.
It actually came from a styleof music that I grew up
listening to.
It's the the MemphisUnderground.
So I took a lot of the lyricsand I applied everything in life
and I thought that I was goingto be able to create,
essentially, a family, when inactuality, this family was more
(02:58):
like a cult rather than a familywith beneficial ending.
This ending was gonna benothing deathly, nothing crazy,
but I really didn't have a planor anything to end this.
I was so young, but it was allbecause I fostered so much pain
in my heart because I didn'twant to be this athlete.
Amber (03:17):
Right, so, wow.
So I'm thinking about.
You're saying that you hadsiblings, that you were
mimicking behaviors from.
You were living in the suburbs,so you said you had two
siblings.
Is that right, okay?
And so you're a football star.
You start to notice that you'rewell-liked, your words can have
(03:38):
power, things like that.
So I'm still trying to find outhow we get from.
Okay, I'm going to math class,right, okay?
So I'm like today I'm going tomath class and I'm going to the
game after and I'm transitioning.
Did that feel like a gradualthing?
(03:58):
Did you just realize one day itwas happening?
Joe (04:01):
Let's unpack that a little bit.
This probably started when Iwas in my youth.
I was always obsessed with likefootage of world leaders and
dictators and like the powerthat they had over other
individuals.
I was always obsessed with thatas a child.
So it really started in myyouth and it gradually went all
the way into that phase of mylife.
(04:22):
So how old are you at thispoint that we're talking?
Probably seven or eight yearsold.
Jason (04:25):
No, no, no, once you're like post-football, oh,
post-football I was 23 years old.
Are you asking them to dothings that are illegal Um?
Joe (04:33):
at first no.
Jason (04:34):
At first no.
Joe (04:35):
Yeah, and then in the beginning at first, no, in the
beginning was all I was asked tomentor the student athlete
population.
So everything was good naturedin the beginning and I had
things that I was going throughin my life and in my household,
and then things with havingchildren with a person that I
didn't want to have kids with.
So really it was ultimatelylike a pity party for myself
(04:55):
Having children with someone youdidn't want to have children
with.
Yeah, I had a one night standwith a person and she ended up
getting pregnant, and then herand I it was all just a bunch of
things that compiled on.
Jason (05:08):
Was she part of the cult?
No, so she's out.
So you have.
You have a woman that's outsideof the cult.
You have a.
You have a child with her, andis the child living with you?
Joe (05:21):
yes, we're both living together.
She's living with you and, yes,we're both living together.
She's living with you.
Jason (05:24):
And then she ended up getting pregnant and you're
doing this cult thing and whenyou're talking about your
followers, yeah.
So it was like that's my dayjob, I go home to my family and
then I have these followers.
Joe (05:34):
I was actually working as a custodian in the school
district, and that's where Ibasically started everything out
.
I was working as a custodian inthe school district where I
played football at and Ibasically started it.
There Are your followers minors.
Some of them were students andsome of them were out of school
and, yes, they were minors inthe beginning.
Jason (05:54):
So mostly minors that you're and you're you're
relatively young at that point,still yourself you're 20s, 21,
22, but you have minors that arethat you'reors, that have that
worship you because you were thefootball star.
Yeah, the old football star,yeah, I think I saw that in a
movie.
Amber (06:13):
So of the things that you're describing, that sort of
you were going through.
You have this situation whereyou're starting a family earlier
than you thought you would, butyou mentioned sort of other
things.
Talk about that a little bit,if you feel comfortable.
Joe (06:31):
I witnessed a lot sexually in my house growing up, even
though I had a really goodupbringing I can't stress that
enough but mimicking mybrother's behavior, it really
turned me into something that hedidn't know that this was going
to end up happening to me.
He thought this was normalbehavior.
This is how I treat my brother.
My brother's no longer alive,but this is how I'm supposed to.
(06:52):
You know my brother.
I'm showing him how to be a man, and this and that because our
father worked two jobs.
So my vision of a man, besideswatching my dad come home from
work, my vision of a man was mybrother, my older brother.
Amber (07:04):
So Okay, and so you graduate high school.
You're working in the school.
What did aspirations forcollege, or was that something
that was out of reach?
Joe (07:17):
My brother and I we started a music group and we were DJ
and techno music and we traveledall over.
We traveled to about ninedifferent countries.
We were DJing techno music andwe traveled all over.
We traveled to about ninedifferent countries.
We played music and stuffeverywhere.
So my life really didn't lookthat bleak.
I really had kind of life bythe blank, you can say it.
Jason (07:35):
You can say it.
We have a little conversation,I feel like I had life.
Joe (07:38):
It's really hard for me to actually even explain the
monster that was.
You had life by the balls.
You wanted to say it, man.
Jason (07:45):
All right, even explained the monster that was life by
the balls.
You wanted to say it, man, allright, go ahead, all right.
So if you're looking at it atthat point, if I, if I saw you
in those years, you would sayI'm, I'm it yeah, right so right
, I have a good life.
Yeah, uh, you know, I've gotthe music stuff going on, I've
got people following me, I'vegot this job, I've, I've got a
kid.
Everything's good, all right sowhat happened?
Joe (08:06):
I started feeling sorry for myself.
My career with football didn'tstart to go the way that it went
, and I had nowhere else to look.
I didn't want to go to college,I didn't want to do this.
All I wanted to do was playfootball.
So I thought.
When I went to prison Irealized that that wasn't what I
wanted to do either.
So I was so confused at thattime period in life I couldn't
(08:27):
find my direct path and I kindof lost myself, and it's really
saddening to think about howdeep I lost myself in that
moment.
All I had to do was ask forhelp, and I didn't know how to
do that.
Jason (08:42):
So if someone said to you what do you want to be when you
grow up?
Joe (08:48):
You'd say I didn't know how to do that.
So someone said to you what doyou want to be when you grow up?
You'd say I don't know at thatpoint in time what I would say
if I want you know.
When they would ask that, Iwould say, um, I wanted to be a
football player, so I thought,okay were you trying to to?
play?
Yeah, I was actually.
I was actually trying to walkon at a local university to punt
because I knew I could have gotmy film out there and the
footage out there, but none ofthat transpired.
Because of my drug use.
I was afraid to let them reallyknow I was struggling with
(09:11):
alcohol, psychedelic drugs, weedwomen.
I was really struggling at thistime period.
Amber (09:17):
Film, courage, and what was your first exposure to those
things, alex?
Joe (09:20):
Jones, probably when I was about 11.
Like, I started smoking weedwhen I was about 11.
But my whole life I had watchedparties.
Parents didn't really drinkmuch, my parents didn't smoke
weed, but I watched my brotherand his friends.
Jason (09:34):
So it's what you knew.
Joe (09:35):
Yeah, that's it.
Jason (09:38):
So you had this issue.
You were already strugglingwith substances.
Yeah.
And then you were getting yourfollowers to do the same yeah,
they would smoke weed andthey're young yeah and so um,
what so?
What happened?
So?
Is that how you ended uparrested?
Joe (09:53):
no, I um, the encounter took place between me and one of
my victims and, um, she hadwent and told one of her friends
at basketball practice thenight after everything had
happened.
So her friend had notified thebasketball coach and the
basketball coach had notifiedthe principal.
The principal had let thepolice know that, hey, we think
that something happened and thatpolice officer and I had a
(10:15):
pretty good rapport with oneanother.
He called me and he asked me tocome to the station.
My mom raised me.
Good, I knew that I didsomething wrong.
Amber (10:23):
That's what landed me in prison for 13 years one time
okay and so, um, just to beclear, there was harm that
occurred, absolutely, betweenyourself and an individual that
was attending the school,absolutely, okay.
And you get a phone call fromthe police and they say come
(10:44):
down to the station.
And what are you thinking inthis moment?
Joe (10:49):
I'm scared as hell.
I've never been in a situationlike this.
I didn't realize that it wouldget this far.
I didn't have the wisdom to seethat far into my life.
That it was.
I knew it was going to crash,but I didn't know it was going
to be this severe.
So in that moment I just becamefearful and didn't know what to
do, didn't tell anyone, didn'ttalk to anyone and I went to the
(11:10):
station on my own.
Jason (11:12):
And just to backtrack for one second you're 23 at that
point, so you're 23.
You have, how old is your?
Joe (11:18):
child.
My kids at the time are two andone.
I have two children.
Jason (11:21):
So you have a two-year-old, a one-year-old,
you have a girlfriend, and youcall down to the police station
and you know something's up, andthen what transpires?
What did they?
Joe (11:31):
Oh, they called me to the police station and they
questioned me.
I told them you know the truthabout everything that happened
and the things that didn'thappen, how this happened, why
this transpired.
And the police officer told mebasically to sit there and when
I came came, when he came back,he had an arrest warrant for me
and I didn't see the streets foranother 14 years so, um, we're
gonna, we're gonna slow thatdown a little bit, but, um, you
(11:54):
know, you'd never seen.
Like don't talk to the policemessages yeah, but it was a lot
different when I was placed inthat like when I was placed in
that predicament it wascompletely different.
Like all the law and orderstuff and don't talk to the
police it went out the window.
Why?
Because of fear.
I was really afraid and I feltlike my mom said listen, if you
ever get caught up, you have totell the truth.
(12:15):
Like you don't lie to me, sodon't lie to other people.
I knew that the cat was out ofthe bag.
Jason (12:20):
So it didn't matter what you had heard before you were
scared.
Joe (12:23):
Yeah, plus, I didn't want to be living that life either
anymore.
Amber (12:27):
And you knew the harm that was being caused was in
fact harm.
Yes.
So in your mind you're hearingyour mother saying to you when
you've done wrong, you'regetting caught up.
And so in your mind you're like, okay, well, I'm going to go
down and perhaps, if I'm tellingthe truth about the things that
(12:53):
have happened that will end upin my favor 100%.
Joe (12:55):
Right, that's an awesome way to put it Right.
Amber (12:56):
So you know, in systems that might work differently, or
in rational thought one mightthink that.
But just to be making it clear,rational thought one might
think that, but just to bemaking it clear.
There was no indication in yourmind like, oh, it was just a
thing, I didn't cause any harm,that was not what was going
through your head.
Jason (13:14):
Okay, and so your experience was different from
what you had expected it to be.
Definitely Okay.
So you skipped over 14 years inyour conversation, right?
So you ended up like do theysend you home that day?
Joe (13:30):
No, I went straight to the Chester County prison on
February 5th of 2010.
And I never saw my house untilNovember 9th of 2023.
Jason (13:38):
So I'm sorry, so I'll do those years in a second.
But so you said to them youbasically said I'm guilty and
they put you in a second.
But so you said to them youbasically said I'm guilty and
they put you in a cell.
Amber (13:48):
And so they set bail.
Joe (13:51):
They gave me a bail at it was $45,000 in the beginning and
they added more charges on acorruption of minors to.
Actually I was bailed out forseven days.
My mom paid a bunch of money toget me bailed out.
I was bailed out for seven days.
So they added on two corruptionof minors charges because of
her two friends being involvedin this.
So they said it was corruptionof minors that I asked them to
(14:11):
smoke weed with me, I asked themto drink a 40 with me and I
solicited her one friend that ifyou come out west we can have a
relationship.
So they gave me criminalsolicitation and two corruption
of minors charges to take awaymy bail.
And then they set my bail atlike 75 000.
But I was advised then by likemy uncles and stuff who had done
time to just stay in prison andjust fight because this time
(14:34):
could actually be accredited towhatever they give you.
So that was the advice that Ihad taken at that point.
Jason (14:40):
And then you, so you stayed in how long before you
were actually sentenced?
18 months, okay, so that's.
Joe (14:48):
I'm sure that, Because I went to trial and my district
attorney was pregnant, so shekept continuing, continuing,
continuing, continuing.
It was literally like 11continuances Each month.
Basically it was a continuanceon their behalf, but my lawyer
never.
He never let me know any ofthat type of stuff.
Jason (15:05):
During that 18 months you must.
Did you think that there was achance you would be found not
guilty?
Joe (15:11):
and let out A chance that I would be found not guilty on a
certain charge that they hadgave me.
You know the other charges Iadmitted to.
So that's why I ended up goingto trial was to fight the
involuntary deviant sexualintercourse charge because I
admitted to the statutory sexualassault.
I admitted to the criminalsolicitation.
I didn't know the law.
Amber (15:28):
So you're incarcerated, you're trying to make sense of
the system, you're trying tomake sense of the wide scope of
charges that are being broughtagainst you.
And so during that 18 months,you were in jail.
Intro (15:45):
Yes.
Amber (15:45):
Okay.
So then sentencing comes, oryou went to trial, yep, okay.
And so tell us a little bitabout that.
What happens during trial?
Joe (15:59):
The voir dire process in Chester County was probably the
most confusing process, I guess,because I didn't really see too
many people that looked like mein the process.
So from the beginning I wasafraid I didn't feel like I had
anyone who could possiblyrepresent me in the jury.
So it was really coveredbecause I was an athlete, so
(16:21):
everything was in the newspapers.
Everyone knew in the prison mysituation.
But I was really candid andopen about my situation when I
was an athlete.
So everything was in thenewspapers.
Everyone knew in the prison mysituation, but I was really
candid and open about mysituation.
When I was in prison I saidthis is what happened and I
never really tried to mask it.
I couldn't Everyone read thenewspaper and everything was on
the front.
So the process of trial, Iguess, is like they would call
me over, they would havecontinuances and I would sit
(16:43):
down in the bullpen, go upstairs, sit down in the bullpen, go
upstairs and then the day you'retold 13 years.
13 years but I ended up doing 14because parole.
You know how they.
I got a parole hit when I wasin prison, but 13 years the day
that they told me about 13 years, I look back.
My mother was dying and mybrother was also dying.
(17:04):
They were, my brother was sickand my mom had stage four colon
cancer, but they wouldn't allowboth of them in the court
because they said it wouldinfluence the jury to say that
oh, we feel bad for his mother,we feel bad for his brother
because they're sick.
Jason (17:17):
We couldn't have that as a society.
We couldn't see you as a humanbeing with family right, but 13
years hits you.
I mean, when they say 13 years,I couldn't even imagine because
I had to look back at myself.
Joe (17:32):
I'm like 13 years.
Kindergarten to 12th grade is13 years.
So I went from being 5 to 18,13 years, 23 to I'll be out when
I'm 36, 37.
I couldn't see it and all Icould see was my mother passing
away and my brother Like that's.
The only thing that I could seewas that.
Amber (17:50):
And so at that moment, clearly, what you're not
thinking about, you know you'rethinking about this system and
what's happening now.
What you're not thinking aboutis your own actions.
Right, is your own actionsright?
So then you're sentenced, andwhere do you go from there?
(18:11):
Do you end up in a state prison?
Yep.
Joe (18:15):
After I was sentenced I went back to Chester County for
maybe about four or five weeksand after that they call you up
and the guard will just say thatmeans you're going upstate.
So at that time we had to go togreater first.
So I went to greaterford.
I was there for about two weeksand then from greaterford they
sent me to camp hill, thenclassification.
Camp hill at that time was aclassification jail so you would
(18:37):
go get all your medical stuff,your psych stuff, all that, so
then they could send you to whatat that time was called your
home jail.
So I was at Camp Hill for eightmonths.
I actually thought that thatwas going to become my home jail
.
Then I was snatched out and Iwas sent to Laurel Highlands,
which is in Somerset County,which actually was prison utopia
at the time, and it reallysaved me, because I don't think
(18:58):
that I would have lastedmentally in the other harsher
prisons in PA.
Laurel Highlands actually savedme at that time.
Amber (19:05):
So, for those folks who are not familiar with
Pennsylvania, because we havelisteners all over the country
how far was the prison that youended up in away from where you
lived it?
Joe (19:18):
was 354 miles exact from my house, from where I was born,
but it was on the same road.
It was on Route 30.
So I would look out same road.
It was on Route 30.
So I would look out the windowand I would see Route 30 and I
would think 350.
Some miles away is where mymother and father are.
Amber (19:32):
Did that impact their ability to come and visit you In
a?
Joe (19:37):
way it did because my mother was sick at the time but
I had a lot of love and support.
So they did come and visit, butnot like it would have been if
I was at SCI Phoenix, which is30 miles from my house, or at
SCI Chester, which is 30 milesfrom my house.
Jason (19:50):
So once you landed there, were you there the whole time.
Joe (19:53):
I was there.
I was at Laurel Highlands formy first eight years and then I
transferred to another facilitynon-disciplinary, but it was a
transfer because I wanted to getcloser to home.
My father had gotten sick whenI was incarcerated.
My mother had died in 2013, andthen my father had gotten sick
and he needed a kidneytransplant.
So they transferred me to theEastern District but sent me 100
(20:13):
miles away from my house.
How old was your mother whenshe passed away.
Jason (20:16):
My mother was 61.
So your mother's 61.
It must have hit.
I mean you're in prison.
It did, I mean you're in prison.
Joe (20:21):
It did.
I mean, I was a mommy's boygrowing up, so like it really I
went through a fall Period iswhat I call it of like four
years of just existing.
I go to the law library, but Iwas just existing.
I go to the weight room, but Iwas just existing.
I go play basketball orfootball, but I was just
existing.
I wasn't obtaining any type ofinformation, I was merely
existing.
(20:42):
And then my brother had diedsix months after that.
Jason (20:45):
Oh my goodness, so we have.
Joe (20:47):
So your mother passes away, your brother passes away, and
now your father's sick and thenmy sister raised my kids for
like the first six years that Iwas incarcerated.
Then their mother came backinto their life after her
struggle with addiction and allthat.
So it was like a war with mysister.
Every time I will call.
It was never good news.
It was always something aboutlike my children's situation and
(21:08):
where they were going to beplaced, and it was just it was
hectic for a while as you'resitting in the prison and the
time is ticking on, are youthinking like how things could?
have been different, 100% everyday.
That was the thought I'd wakeup every single day.
I couldn't look in the mirror.
And when I started to look inthe mirror again, that's what I
(21:28):
that's.
Things should have beendifferent.
I should have made the rightchoices in life.
I knew what I was doing waswrong.
Jason (21:36):
Even even though what you did was wrong and even though
you caused harm.
Do you think that there couldhave been a different way to
approach you, versus locking youup?
Do you think locking you uphelped keep you away from?
Keeping you away from peopleWas the right thing to do?
Joe (21:56):
I believe there were definitely therapeutic methods.
Of course I should have donethe 11 and a half to 23 months
that they should have given me.
According to the basicsentencing matrix in
Pennsylvania, the crimes that Idid commit At the max the crimes
that I committed was 11.5 to 23months.
Jason (22:14):
Do you think so?
I got two questions.
Do you think race played afactor in your case?
Joe (22:19):
100%.
And I'm not even the type topull the race card, but 100%.
Jason (22:24):
So I'm going to ask you a part B like how so?
And number two do you think thefact that you were this
football star played a role?
So talk about how, who you weremade a difference in terms of
how you were treated.
Joe (22:41):
I never really was mentioned that way.
Jason (22:43):
That was cool, I like that we like to do it a little
differently.
Joe (22:46):
Ask you in terms of how you were treated.
I never really was asked inthat way.
That was cool.
I like that.
We like to do it a littledifferently.
Ask you, my lawyer actuallytold me.
He said that this is a raceissue.
There are certain people in ouroffice who let me know that
this is completely a race issue.
This was around the electionand my victim's family was
something big in our county soand it's known that they don't
(23:08):
really like my kind, they don'treally like the guys in this
mountain, and that's somethingthat was known.
I knew it was a race issue whenI looked at 200 and something
Was the victim white?
Yes, okay, 100%.
Amber (23:23):
So I really appreciate you so much sharing that.
I think that I do want to asksomething of you, just because
I'm needing this and feelingthis in my body right now.
I would like for us to refer tothe person who was harmed as
the person who was harmed,rather than flattening them into
a victim.
I appreciate you being sotransparent and open.
(23:47):
What was going on with you andyou know the thought process and
being vulnerable in this space,because these are difficult
conversations to have.
And when I think about themedia and the role that the
media plays, as I'm hearing yourstory and I'm thinking about it
and I'm reflecting on my ownstory and knowing that there is
(24:10):
a component of race right,there's a component of this
football star that was so wellloved, and then the person who
was harmed looking verydifferent from you, the people
in the system looking verydifferent from you, I really
appreciate you sharing thosethings you said.
My lawyer mentioned it to me.
(24:31):
Had it occurred to you at allprior to that?
Joe (24:35):
Definitely, because I'm just aware of the county that I
live in and I know how thesystem works in our county.
Plus, there were about three orfour other cases like around
the same time and the sentenceswere like unbelievably complete
differences, the harshness of mycrime to some of the harshness
(24:57):
of other crimes.
It didn't match up with thetime that the people were
receiving.
And then I would see these guysand I would know oh, he's that
color.
Amber (25:07):
Right, you can say.
You can say, we can say okay,he was white and his victim was
black.
Joe (25:13):
That's why the time was that way.
It's not just a black and whitecase.
Jason (25:17):
So, joe, listen, we're not trying to sugarcoat things.
We want to talk about what'sreal, what's real for you and
what your experience was Right.
Talk to us.
Amber (25:29):
So how did that?
I mean sort of knowing thatagain, if we start to talk about
, like, how can we stop cyclesof sexual harm, right, and we're
thinking about if you are upagainst a system that is not
treating you fairly, you'rethinking about that, right, and
we're thinking about if you areup against a system that is not
treating you fairly, you'rethinking about that right,
because that is real harm, thedisproportionate ways that we
(25:52):
handle things.
So that is creating a lack ofsafety in your body, a lack of
safety in your life, which isnot having you think about.
Well, you know, the harm that Icaused was real to someone else
, right?
Am I characterizing thatcorrectly?
(26:13):
So when you're incarcerated,you mentioned that a particular
facility saved your life.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about that.
What does that mean?
Were there services there foryou.
Joe (26:25):
Were there people that you met there, right, people that
were at Laurel Highlands.
They were classified inPennsylvania as level two.
So a lot of guys that are leveltwo, they're not dangerous.
Really, like the way that I putit, anyone who's classified as
a level two, this person's notdangerous.
Regardless of what they've done, he or she has done enough to
(26:48):
receive a level two clearance.
So at the time when I got sentthere, laurel Highlands was a
level two facility.
The people that I met thereguided me through prison in a
way that I needed it.
I couldn't have went somewherelike SCI Green or I couldn't
have went somewhere like SCICold Township because they were
violence-based prisons at thetime.
Laurel Highlands I was theremaybe eight and a half years,
(27:10):
like I said, and I might've seentwo fights, so there was really
no violence there which allowedme to have a clearer mind, to
receive anything that was due tome in treatment.
Like that made a completedifference because when I ended
up at cold township, treatmentwas different because there was
so much violence around.
I'm worried about watching myback.
I'm not worried about what thisfacilitator is saying, right, I
(27:33):
, I'm known to have a sexualcrime like anybody could do
anything, even though no one in13 and a half years guys would
ask me I didn't know, that'swhat you were here for and we we
would talk about it openly.
I never had anybody be like youeffing this or you effing
molester.
None of that has ever.
None of that happened while Iwas in prison and I was super
fortunate for that to not happen, because I watched other guys
(27:55):
go through complete hell Hell.
Amber (27:58):
And when you say, like you know, there were people that
were there that were helpingyou walk through, were those
individuals who had been therelonger, saw that this is the new
person coming in, offered yousome sort of warm accompaniment
yeah uh talk about that it wasmainly the people who had done a
little bit of time andunderstood my situation.
Joe (28:19):
After they would speak to me they would realize that I
wasn't like the other youngerguys.
I could.
I could listen.
That's what the guys recognized.
I listened and I took.
I took constructive criticismwell, so the guys gravitated to
that.
They liked teaching me, theyliked showing me new things
because I liked learning.
So I listened.
That's what I.
(28:39):
That's where I got the bestadvice from.
But most of the guys either haddone 10 years, 15 years or some
of them I hung out with wereguys that had life sentences.
Jason (28:49):
So you talked at the beginning about having followers
.
Yeah, right, did you havefollowers while you were in
prison?
Joe (28:58):
Yeah, After a while it became that because I was a good
athlete.
So anyone who's a good athletein prison, it's like junior high
.
If anyone not even high school,it's like junior high.
Anyone who's a good athlete inprison, it doesn't matter what
you did in jail.
It doesn't matter.
So if you were a sex offenderor a rapist or whatever you want
to be considered so again.
Jason (29:18):
I'm going to just stop you for a second and we're going
to go back to the labels, right?
Joe (29:23):
So if you're someone who committed a sex offense, if
you're someone who committed asex offense, if you're someone
who committed a sex offense inprison, if you're good at sports
and you're okay in the lawlibrary, you're condescending
which is sad.
Amber (29:35):
And then I wanted to unpack another thing that I
heard you say, that when youwere in a level two facility you
were with people who were notdangerous.
This sort of spurred somethinking in me and again, you
know, I'm just kind of thinkingout loud the idea that people
are inherently dangerous or notdangerous.
(29:57):
Do you think that that's astatic thing or do you think
that that is something thatfluctuates?
Joe (30:01):
and changes.
It depends on which environmentyou put a person in, because
when you put a person likemyself, who's not really
dangerous, if you put me in aplace like Cold Township, I may
have to force or becomedangerous to protect myself.
So I actually believe that it'sthe environment that's fostered
around a person that can bringthat out of a person, because
(30:23):
I've seen guys come into theprisons who I know never fought,
but they didn't have a choicethere right when you say the
environment.
Amber (30:31):
Did that have a lot to do with the culture of the way
people were treated?
The layout, the, what do youthink created an environment?
Joe (30:39):
the school.
Nothing was connected.
It was treated like a campus.
It wasn't like one static unit,it it was a bunch of different
buildings.
They had the track in themiddle.
It made everyone feel like theywere at a school rather than
being in a prison.
Except there were bars andrazor wire that if you were
conscious enough you would seethat, but if you didn't look at
(31:00):
that, you almost felt like youwere at like a campus.
Amber (31:04):
So when you were interacting with the staff, what
was that like?
Because the experiences that wehear from a lot of people has
to do with the dehumanizationthat happens to someone when
they're incarcerated.
Was there a difference betweenthe interactions with the staff
at that facility and thesubsequent ones?
(31:25):
How did that work?
Joe (31:26):
I actually like I had maybe two guards in my whole 14 years
be like negative towards me,but I watched them be negative
towards other people.
I watched staff.
So really at laurel highlandsthe staff, they were pretty cool
.
I actually have to at everyfacility.
I never really had too muchtrouble with the staff with
myself but I watched how theyare with other individuals.
(31:50):
They treated me because I was aCPS, I was a peer assistant and
I was a certified peerspecialist, so they treated me a
little different and sometimesI didn't like that treatment.
Amber (32:02):
Did that cause problems for you?
Joe (32:04):
Sometimes it made guys think like, well, why does this
person treat you this way andthey treat us that way?
And I would have to explain tothem.
Jason (32:14):
Joe, you said you were sentenced to 13 years but was
there for 14.
You told us a little bit at thebeginning.
I mean, I've heard of peoplewho are sentenced to 13 and then
they serve like half the time.
How come you had to serve notonly all of it, but a little bit
?
Joe (32:32):
more.
See my actual time.
In Pennsylvania they give usdouble time, so I was sentenced
to a 13 to 26.
So my actual sentence is 26.
I see, so you actually servedhalf your time.
Jason (32:43):
Yes, I served half my time Plus another year Plus
another year because I wasn'tfinished a program and I'm sorry
.
Joe (32:49):
what year did you come out?
Last year?
November 9th of 2023.
2023.
Jason (32:53):
So you were.
You had a lot of years prior toCOVID-19 pandemic, but you were
there.
Yep, your final years wereduring the beginning of that
pandemic 422 days.
Joe (33:05):
In a cell with 15 minutes out of the cell, you had to
choose 10 minutes.
In a cell with 15 minutes outof the cell, you had to choose
10 minutes for a shower or fiveminutes for a phone, or vice
versa.
Jason (33:12):
So your life towards the end was drastically different.
It was strange, and did thatimpact your ability to finish
that program.
Was that why you were there anextra year?
Joe (33:21):
Yes and no.
The person that I harmedactually reached out to the
Attorney General's office andwrote that I didn't commit the
IDSI charge.
So I possessed all thispaperwork from the attorney
general, the district attorney'soffice.
They had wrote me to file anemergency PCRA.
So I filed this emergency PCRAbut I can't do the program
because I'm not admitting to thecrime that I'm there for, but
(33:44):
I'm admitting to everything elseadmitting to the crime that I'm
there for, but I'm admitting toeverything else, right?
So in the midst of that, theytold the person that I harmed
that if she comes to court totestify then a perjury charge
would be thrown against her.
So she disappeared and it leftme in limbo where I would have
actually finished the program ayear before.
I want to make sure.
Jason (34:03):
I understand.
So she wanted to come forwardand say you got it wrong.
However, if she came forwardand said you got it wrong, then
she could be arrested herselfand get into trouble for a
perjury charge, and so they usedthat rather than just doing the
(34:24):
right thing and coming forward.
It backfired on you Completely.
Amber (34:29):
Well and it backfired on her as well.
Joe (34:32):
Because she wanted to live in truth, she mustered the
courage and strength to come outand say listen, I know what
happened.
Like this is what happened tome.
Like that strength that sheused to come and go to the
district attorney's office onher own, Like this all appeared
out of the blue.
Good for her, yes, yes.
Amber (34:53):
Right, and that meant that when you went to the parole
board, that you had notfinished the program and
therefore you were not grantedparole because you were serving
that 13 to 26.
And so, for those who don'tunderstand or haven't been with
the system because we havelisteners of all kinds what
would happen is, if you areserving 13 to 26, when that 13
(35:17):
year comes, you have theopportunity to go in front of
the parole board and they cansay why?
Yes, you've done what you'resupposed to do.
So talk a little bit about thatprocess, because it's almost in
many ways people describe it aslike retrying the crime,
reopening old wounds after somany years.
(35:39):
Talk a little bit about that.
Joe (35:41):
Well, it's a PA.
We have what they callpre-parole, what they call
pre-parole.
So before you actually see theparole board, they give you four
months.
Before that they have a fewmeetings with your counselor,
your unit manager, the personthat's on the block with you,
your unit manager and some staffthat are there, and you answer
a bunch of questions.
You go over everything thatyou're supposed to talk about at
(36:01):
the parole hearing, but most ofthe stuff in pre-parole doesn't
align with what you hear inparole, because it's a human
endeavor.
They're not going to ask youthe same questions that these
people ask you from four monthsago.
So really it's like you have togo up there and just be able to
speak, and not only just speakconvey the language that they
taught you.
So whatever you learn inprogramming, you better remember
(36:24):
how to convey that message backto them, or else if you don't
speak their language, it'sconsidered manipulating the
system, which is also a parolehit and can give you another six
to 12 months to do on top ofthat.
So if you're not educated orcan't speak in front of people,
you are like way back.
Amber (36:44):
So that puts people who might maybe someone has an
intellectual disability, Maybesomeone has a fear of speaking
like, yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, I appreciate you sharingthat.
That puts different people indifferent populations at a
significant disadvantage.
So you spent the 14 years.
(37:06):
Tell us a little bit aboutrelease.
What does it look like whenyou're released?
It's only been a year, right?
Joe (37:13):
Yeah, one year.
Amber (37:14):
So what happens there?
Joe (37:15):
I was fortunate enough to come home to a community that
welcomed me and a family network, but it was different.
My mother wasn't here, mybrother wasn't here.
Life was completely different.
I mean, it was a complete shock.
Technology had changed.
My friends had gotten older, mykids grew.
Jason (37:33):
Film Courage.
I can imagine you go in and youthink, 13 years, I'm going to
just hit pause and then when Icome out, everything is going to
be the same, and I'll juststart over.
Joe (37:42):
I come out with the heaviest label in the universe,
regardless of how much support Ihad.
I have the heaviest label onearth over Like, regardless of
how much support I had.
I have the heaviest label onearth over top of my head.
Jason (37:53):
And did your father pass?
Joe (37:54):
No, my father's actually doing good.
He's actually healthy and he'sdoing well.
He received a kidney transplant.
He's healthy and living.
Amber (38:02):
That's amazing.
And so you said you came out tofamily support.
Did you have any strugglestrying to find a place to stay?
Were there any barriers?
No, I didn't have any.
Joe (38:22):
You were allowed to live with your family and through my
t-shirt business.
There was another person whereI was working at that had a
t-shirt business and we werebattling over whose t-shirts
were better in this facility.
Well, I guess I kind of won thebattle.
So a person that I grew up withand loved dearly, and still do
to this day, went to the humanresources and said listen, I
(38:45):
don't feel safe with JoeNicholson working in this
building.
I know his situation and theyknew my situation also, because
I disclosed everything with them.
But she told them that she wasgoing to tell the higher ups and
they basically had to turntheir back on me.
Amber (39:00):
Right.
And so this is a pretty commonstory with folks who are in
reentry with a variety of labelsand convictions, but
particularly for individuals whohave been convicted of a crime
of a sexual nature.
And so what were you feeling inthat moment?
Joe (39:18):
I felt for that moment almost hopeless.
Like I felt hopeless again.
It was like I was just snatchedright out of the water.
But luckily, my partner and mylove of my life, she picked me
up out the mud once again andtold was like I was just
snatched right out of the water.
But luckily, my partner and mylove of my life, she picked me
up out the mud once again andtold me like listen, you are
more important than what ishappening.
That had to happen so you couldgo explain this to people and
(39:39):
let them know what this is likeliving as a reentrant on the
registry.
Amber (39:45):
That's wonderful.
When you say your partner isthis girlfriend, okay, and so
this is obviously a verypositive relationship in your
life and provides support, soyou started to get involved in
advocacy.
Joe (40:00):
Tell us a little bit about that While I was in prison I ran
a couple groups and I created agroup that we would call
Pathfinder while I was in prisonto just help guys find paths,
develop action plans, reentryplans for success.
And I'm actually just trying tobring that concept and program
to the street now that I'm outhere, because I know that it
could help certain individuals,especially those who are just as
(40:22):
impacted, and the guys on theregistry, because I can put
myself in.
I'm in your shoes, right.
I love the name becauseeverybody has their own path.
Amber (40:34):
Yeah okay, we got a whole torches for one another.
All right, that's beautifulwhat does it mean?
Joe (40:38):
like?
Amber (40:38):
you're creating paths to success.
Joe (40:42):
Create really creating paths inward so you can create
outward.
It's's all on you.
Jason (40:46):
Joe pointed to his shirt and it says Pathfinder.
Can you describe it?
Joe (40:53):
There's a torch here because we have to hold the
light up for everybody.
Light is truth.
The Liberty Bell to representPA PA, because we're from
Pennsylvania, and PA also forpeer assistance.
We're supposed to assist ourpeers, you know, and I use the
video game font because I likevideo games.
Amber (41:11):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Joe (41:13):
All right, as you think that exactly that's what you are
, man.
So don't think that you arethis, because you are that.
Amber (41:22):
Is a certain amount of like the Pathfinder program.
Does it speak to keeping eachother accountable?
Joe (41:27):
Not, exactly what it is.
We have to be accountable.
First, we have to look atourselves in the mirror and say
that yes, this is what I did,but allow me to fix that, and I
start with myself fixing this.
Amber (41:39):
Right.
Joe (41:41):
We can't blame anybody outside of me.
We have to start here first, inour center.
Amber (41:47):
So some of that is based on your own experience of
self-reflection and unpackingthe layers inside yourself and
then creating a mechanism toshare that information with
other people so that they canfollow a similar path.
Joe (42:00):
Thank you for explaining my thing clearer than what I could
explain.
That's exactly what it is.
Amber (42:06):
Oh, I love it.
That sounds really exciting.
So you were working on thatwhile you were inside and you
mentioned we're bringing it tothe streets.
What does that mean?
What format does that look?
Joe (42:16):
like, my partner is a retired sergeant of 30 years, a
police sergeant, and we're goinginto Chester County Prison to
basically give like a pre-seasongame, to talk to some of the
guys who are in the prison tosay, hey, do you guys think that
this will work in the facility?
But we want to do this in frontof the staff so they can see
that the inmates and theprisoners they actually want
this to be implemented in theprisons and right here we hope.
(42:40):
We hope that it grows.
I don't see why it won't orshouldn't, or couldn't, and I'm
looking to join other people whoare doing the same thing.
This is not a one team.
It can't be.
It's not a one team effort.
There's too many people.
Amber (42:53):
Right, and so you're basically piloting it and then
you're getting that feedbackfrom the folks that have been in
a similar situation to you.
Jason (43:03):
Okay, Good, do you want to ask your final?
Amber (43:05):
question yeah, so we have really appreciated you coming
and sharing your story and beingso vulnerable today and very
excited for the things to come.
I have one last question foryou before we wrap up our time
together, and that is, you know,thinking back on like your
younger self right, you've donea lot of that inner work.
(43:27):
Is thinking back on youryounger self right, you've done
a lot of that inner work?
If you had a piece of advicefor someone who is at the very
beginning of a journey similarto your own, what would that be?
Joe (43:39):
Look at yourself in the mirror every day and tell
yourself positive affirmation.
Tell yourself positive things,know your value, understand your
worth and realize this isn'tyour worst.
This may be your worst, butit's not going to be your worst.
It's going to get better in thefuture.
Things are going to happenbeneficial for you.
(44:02):
As long as you take that andyou live by that and don't let
anyone sway you from that, youwill be good.
There's no way the universeworks that way.
You cannot stop that.
So if you keep a positivementality, positive things will
happen.
Even if the situation aroundyou is negative, positive things
(44:23):
will happen because it's due toyou.
Amber (44:27):
Love that.
Jason.
You have any last thoughtsbefore we wrap up?
Jason (44:30):
Last thoughts are.
You know, this is the firsttime, amber, that we've recorded
in the same physical presence,right?
Right, yeah, we're justgroundbreaking over here.
So I'm going to tell you, inJudaism we have a prayer for and
I don't usually do this, butit's fun, it's a shechecheanu.
(44:52):
It's like thanks for bringingus to this season.
And it goes, which basicallymeans hey, we're here together,
thanks.
So I want to say thank you.
We got to meet you this morningfor the first time.
I hear your story, joe, fromwhere you've been to where you
(45:16):
are is amazing, incredible.
You know you had your story.
Your story has this.
You know it had a big high andthen a dip, and now you're.
You know you're back on thatclimb and I see great things for
you.
You're bringing it back to thecommunity and it's been a
pleasure to get to know you.
Joe (45:35):
Yeah, I really appreciate this and what you guys are doing
for us, and I think this isnecessary.
So I will always be gratefulfor you guys allowing me to
amplify my voice on you guys'podcast, because this is
necessary for all of us.
It's not just about people inthe registry, it's not just
about people in prison.
This is necessary for everyoneto be able to be heard, and not
(45:58):
just heard listen to Right, lovethat and with that Until next
time, Amber.
Jason (46:03):
We'll see you next time.
Until next time, Amber.
Amber (46:06):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (46:10):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
lifting the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.
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