October 23, 2024 • 60 mins
Join Amplified Voices co-hosts, Amber and Jason for a compelling conversation with Justyna, an inspiring professional dedicated to forensic psychology and social work. Justyna shares her remarkable journey from community-based treatment and social work to her time working at Rikers.
From her academic experiences at John Jay College and Hunter College to her first job in an outpatient program, her passion for helping people thrive is palpable. Justyna provides an enlightening perspective on the importance of supporting people as they navigate the complexities of re-entry, while also addressing the emotional toll it takes on treatment providers.
Our discussion delves deep into the systemic hurdles faced by those re-entering society after incarceration. Justyna sheds light on the harsh realities and counterproductive nature of housing restrictions while addressing emotional strain experienced both by individuals on parole and registries and those who support them. We challenge common misconceptions about conviction registries and emphasize the critical need for public education to enhance community safety.
The conversation also explores Justyna’s time as a clinical supervisor at Rikers Island, where she witnessed people with severe mental health conditions or developmental disabilities being locked in cells without medication or human interaction for weeks and sometimes months. While her intent in taking the job was to bring light to a dark place, it became clear to her that bearing witness on what she saw there was the best way to help.
Motivated by her experiences, Justyna has taken bold steps to sound the alarm on the inhumane treatment of people at Rikers and campaign for systemic change behind the walls and beyond. She has also been focusing on voting rights and education for formerly incarcerated individuals. Her journey highlights the power of advocacy and the importance of using one's voice to drive meaningful change.
Read: Detainees locked in cells for weeks: whistleblower
Watch: Justyna's testimony in front of the Board of Corrections
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Hello, Amber.
Amber (00:43):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:44):
Amber.
Today we have Justina, helloJustina.
Amber (00:49):
Hi, good morning.
Good morning, justina, goodmorning.
Jason (00:54):
Justina, we are going to start with the same question we
ask our guests, and that iscould you tell us a little bit
about your life before youentered the criminal legal
system and what brought you intoit?
Justyna (01:13):
Sure, Thank you.
So I was always interested inthe criminal legal system and
criminal justice reform.
So I went to school for myundergrad in forensic psychology
in John Jay College of CriminalJustice and then for my
master's in social work.
And once I graduated with mymaster's in social work, I
started working in an outpatientprogram.
Where did you grow up?
Where did you grow up?
I grew up in New York City.
Jason (01:36):
You grew up in New York City, right in the city.
Justyna (01:38):
Yes, in Queens, New York.
Jason (01:40):
Okay, and then John Jay is in one of the boroughs.
Justyna (01:44):
Yes, it's in Manhattan All right.
Jason (01:46):
So then you went straight from undergrad to master's.
Justyna (01:49):
Yes, and that was also in city.
That was in Hunter College.
Jason (01:54):
Okay, All right.
So you went for your first job,and it was.
Justyna (01:59):
So the first job was an outpatient substance abuse and
mental health program withpeople that are on parole and
mandated to treatment.
Amber (02:10):
And so when you went into that job, what were your
expectations?
You were really excited.
You had just graduated.
Now you're doing the work.
What happened when you gotthere?
What did you experience?
Justyna (02:22):
I mean, I didn't know what to expect.
I was like really thrown intoit, but it was really exciting
because, like I said, this wasthe population that I always
wanted to work with and therewas never like a time that, like
I was afraid to work with thispopulation.
Like it was just really likeexcitement and just being able
to work.
Jason (02:43):
What was that day in the life?
Right, You're right out ofgraduate school, right, and you
show up and you're working withsomebody who has been in prison,
who has now recently beenreleased I'm assuming they're on
parole and so they show up.
And I mean, what's that dynamiclike for you?
How did you approach your work?
And what's a day in the life?
Justyna (03:05):
So the day in the life was I had a caseload of clients
that I would have to see everyday, so I had sessions
throughout the day.
But, like I said it was, itwasn't definitely what I
expected, but it wasn't anythinglike shocking, like I just
viewed these individuals asindividuals coming home from
prison and we were able to talk,they were able to open up to me
(03:28):
, so it was a good experience.
Amber (03:31):
You mentioned that you had always been interested in
this kind of work.
Did this come from some lifeexperience?
Did this come from a mentor?
What got you interested inworking with those who are in
reentry?
Justyna (03:44):
It's so hard to say, and a lot of people ask me that
it wasn't any kind of particularexperience in my life.
It's just I don't know.
I was always interested in thispopulation and I remember being
in grad school and there wasanother intern from another
school and we were just talkingabout, like the populations we
want to work with, and she said,oh, I would never like work
(04:07):
with people that have committedsexual offenses she used another
term for it, of course and Isaid, oh, really, I wouldn't
mind.
So, like it's so hard to say,like I don't know, it was just
always this interest that I had.
Jason (04:19):
Is that the population that you were working with?
Justyna (04:22):
Yes, so it was people on parole, but mostly people
that were convicted of sexualoffenses, so the program had a
sex offense treatment that Iended up specializing in.
Jason (04:35):
And you are a treatment provider.
Amber (04:38):
When you're working in this position, I know that you
met a lot of people.
How many people were in theprogram as far as employees?
What is the size of the program?
So at that time.
Justyna (04:51):
it was a pretty small program.
We just had one location in thecity, but I would say how many
people this was like 11 yearsago it was maybe like seven
therapists.
I would say it was very smalland probably like over 200 or
(05:13):
maybe even less clients.
The program grew a lot over thepast few years.
Amber (05:16):
What were the kinds of things that people who were in
re-entry, who were in this typeof treatment, what were the kind
of things that they wereexperiencing in their lives as
they were trying to come home?
Justyna (05:29):
They had a lot of difficulty with housing because
of the housing restrictions.
They all had to live in theshelter.
So that was, I would say, themain concern that would always
come up that they did not wantto live in the shelter, the
conditions of the shelter upthat they did not want to live
in the shelter, the conditionsof the shelter.
And for a lot of them, findingemployment and just being
(05:50):
mandated to a program which theydidn't like in the beginning.
Amber (05:55):
And so, as the person that was helping them sort of
emotionally navigate some ofthose things, what did you find
you could be helpful with?
Because some of these thingsare mandated by law.
Right, People were living inthe shelter.
Why Was it because of laws?
Was it because of the lack ofemployment?
A combination of all of thosethings?
(06:15):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (06:17):
Right.
So it was because of the laws,of the housing restrictions.
They couldn't live close to aschool, so they had to live in
the shelter.
That's where their paroleofficer would go to see them.
So it wasn't even like lack ofemployment, because some of the
clients did have jobs and hadplaces to live at with their
(06:38):
families, but because of therestrictions they had to live in
those shelters.
Jason (06:44):
And in New York there's a tiering system.
Right, yes, Were you workingwith people on the three tiers?
Justyna (06:54):
We did provide sex offense treatment, but it wasn't
anything based on the tiers.
We have people tier one, tiertwo, tier three, all the tiers
tier one, tier two, tier three,all the tiers.
Amber (07:10):
And so what is your opinion as a treatment provider
of the tiering system in NewYork?
Justyna (07:13):
I really think it's not fair, because I did have
clients who were a tier threebut their offense was not
against a child, like it waswith an adult, but because they
were a tier three automaticallythey couldn't live by a school,
which I thought was soridiculous.
But even if their offense wasagainst the child, like I know,
(07:36):
the research that's out therethat shows it doesn't do
anything to help and it justmade my clients more frustrated,
hopeless at finding a place tolive.
Jason (07:47):
When you're doing this type of work and you're going in
and you're seeing some of thesethings, does it affect your
outlook and your own mentalhealth?
Did you feel any issues relatedto that?
Outro (08:01):
Yeah, for sure, I definitely felt really bad for
my clients you've been listeningto amplified voices, a podcast
looking the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
Justyna (08:13):
For more information, episodes and podcast notes,
visit amplifiedvoicesshowfrustration and I felt like I
always had to like defend my,and later on I learned that
there's people that I can talkto about this and certain people
I just can't have thoseconversations with.
Jason (08:31):
Did you walk in with preconceived notions, like that
whole idea that once a sexoffender, always a sex offender
those things that we hear out inthe world on a regular basis?
Did you walk in with thosetypes of, with that type of
thinking, or were you somewhereelse?
Justyna (08:48):
yeah, I didn't.
Like I said, I thought likeeveryone could change and I
wanted to help everyone.
So I didn't have thispreconceived like notion, like
these opinions.
I just believe that, like,every person can change and can
have a better life.
And that's why I go back tothat story with my, with the
other intern, which was like Iwould never work with this
(09:11):
population.
I was like, oh, like I wouldn'tmind.
Jason (09:14):
Did you have a lot of interaction with parole officers
?
Justyna (09:19):
So at that time, when I first started, I didn't,
because we did have a legalliaison who would communicate
with parole.
They did not allow thetherapist to talk to parole,
which was good, because the onlything that we reported to
parole was if the person isattending and if they've tested
positive.
We didn't discuss what we'retalking about in our sessions,
(09:43):
what they're disclosing to us,so the therapist didn't even
speak to the parole officers.
Jason (09:49):
It sounds like there was a big wall between you and those
officers, which is notsomething I'm familiar with.
Is that common?
Maybe this is a question forAmber, you've seen it more where
there is that kind ofcollaboration between providers
and supervision.
Amber (10:08):
Yeah.
So I think it really depends onthe program.
It depends on what state you'rein, what model they're using.
There is a model and, justina,I'm sure you're familiar with it
, even if you have never workedwithin the model that is called
the containment model, havenever worked within the model
that is called the containmentmodel.
And so the containment modelbasically has the probation or
parole officer, it has thetreatment provider and it
(10:31):
includes victim advocacy, allworking together and having
access to information.
It's not a model that I thinkis very productive for the
person who is subject to thetreatment, because you have
probation or parole officersactually sitting in treatment
groups, which breaks down thistrust between provider, the
(10:54):
treatment provider and theclient, rather than the
individual as the client.
So we see that is prettypredominant around the country,
in different states, and so itsounds to me, justina, like that
was not the model that you wereworking under.
Justyna (11:14):
No, it was not and, like I said, I thought it was
good that the therapist didn'tcommunicate with the parole
officers because, like I said,we didn't disclose anything that
the client would tell us if theclient was in a new
relationship.
That is against confidentialityof the client.
The only thing we reported wasif the person is attending and
(11:35):
if they tested positive ornegative, because it was a
substance abuse program.
Amber (11:39):
Anything else there was no discussion of and and Justine
, I know you and I have had somediscussion about some of the
struggles you had as a providertrying to work with other
service providers who may havehad preconceived notions about
individuals who have this typeof convention, for instance,
(12:01):
trying to find somebody housingor trying to refer them to
another service.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Justyna (12:07):
Sure, yeah.
So I did find that in New York.
Even agencies and organizationsthat say we hire people that
have been convicted of a crime alot of times they say we'll
take everyone except for peopleon the registry.
So sometimes I will try to findprograms for my clients where
they can attend a training sothey can get a job.
(12:28):
But they were denied over andover again so it was really hard
to find like services for them.
Even in those organizationsthat do help people with a
criminal conviction, a lot oftimes, like I said, they said we
take anyone who's beenconvicted of any kind of crime
except for a sex offense.
Jason (12:49):
We've talked to a lot of people who have had convictions
themselves and the collateralconsequences of the people in
their orbit.
And in your case, you're aprofessional who hasn't
committed any offense, butyou're operating because you're
in this field.
You're operating with one handtied behind your back, right and
(13:09):
you've got you said right, youand you've got.
Your job is made much moredifficult because you're
supporting a population that hasthese barriers placed to them.
So it's interesting that thecollateral consequences even can
go into your personal life andthe way you approach your work
(13:29):
and your job, because you'rebasically going above and beyond
to do like your peers that aresitting next door don't have
those barriers Right, and youhave to overcome those barriers
just to provide help to yourclients and you have to overcome
those barriers just to providehelp to your clients.
Justyna (13:49):
Yes, and it was difficult because as I got into
this work I learned about a lotof different organizations that
help individuals get jobs,trainings.
But it was such a barrierbecause, like I said, they would
say we take everyone except forpeople on the registry and that
would get me like really upsetand I have to hold my emotions
back because I wanted to reactin a certain way to them because
(14:10):
I would say it's not fair, likethey need jobs too.
But that didn't help at all andit was hard to find those
specific like services forpeople that I was working with.
Jason (14:24):
As a trained professional , you're seeing these people and
you're probably developing likerelationships.
I don't want to characterizesomething yet, but like you're
developing like almostprofessional relationships with
people and so you want to helpthem, but you're struggling to
do that.
Justyna (14:42):
Yeah, I felt really bad .
I just felt like it was sounfair and I definitely wanted
to do something about it, tochange, and that's why I got
involved with this organization.
I decided to go obtain my PhDbecause I just saw how these
policies and laws that arecreated do not do anything to
(15:03):
help these individuals, and Ialso teach at John Jay College
of Criminal Justice.
I teach forensic psychology andthis often comes up with the
students that I teach.
The students are there becausethey want to work with the
forensic population, but theysay, yeah, I want to work with
everyone except for people thatcommitted a sex offense.
(15:23):
And that was very surprising tome, because these are students
who want to work with everyoneexcept for people that committed
a sex offense.
And that was very surprising tome because these are students
who want to work in this fieldand still have such a huge
stigma against this population.
Amber (15:36):
And so where do you think some of these stigmas stem from
?
Justyna (15:40):
Definitely the media and people's perception like
they view this population aspeople that are really like
scary.
They always ask if I had anysafety concerns while I was
working with them.
So it's definitely like themedia and like the image that
people are portrayed.
Amber (16:00):
And was that your experience?
Justyna (16:04):
No, and I always tell the students and anyone that I
talk to like I've never feltunsafe.
These are regular people thatand I always say you could be on
the train and you could besitting next to one who's
committed a sexual offense oranother crime and you would
never know.
Like they do not stand out,they're just regular people
(16:25):
coming home from prison tryingto rebuild their life.
I've always felt safe with myclients and I always talk about
how, like I know let's say I wason the train and something
would be happening and my clientwas there like they would be
the ones that would try to likehelp and not try to help.
Jason (16:42):
Justina, if you were to think back to the number of
people in this time period thatwe're talking about, how many
clients would you say you saw?
And you're saying zero of thoseclients caused you any type of
issue, never made you feelunsafe, never made you feel like
they were going to harass youin any way.
(17:03):
That's incredible.
But how many Hundreds?
Justyna (17:07):
Oh yeah, hundreds for sure, because at any time we
have over 200 patients, so I'vemet so many and I've worked
there for 11 years, so Iprobably worked with most of the
people convicted of a sexualoffense in New York at one point
(17:30):
or another.
And, yeah, I've never feltunsafe.
Jason (17:34):
Hey, Amber, you were in the military.
Was that as a woman for anumber of years?
Was that your experience thatyou never felt unsafe.
Amber (17:42):
No, not at all.
So I think my question becomeswhat is your response to people
that say well, I understand thatwasn't your experience and I
understand that you know it'sreally hard for these people,
but we're keeping children safeand this is what people deserve.
They should have thought ofthat before they did.
X, y, z.
Is everybody on the registry?
Justyna (18:12):
the type of person that's hiding in the bushes
ready to grab a child.
Was that your experience?
Yes, so a lot of people saythat, even to today.
My students say this, but Ialways respond with the facts
and the research and I tell themwhat the research says and the
studies that have been conductedthat know that it's not the
person like lurking in thebushes, that a lot of the sexual
offenses do happen within thefamily members, within the home,
(18:34):
someone that the child hasgained trust.
So I always just back it upwith the facts, the research.
Amber (18:40):
And so like, if I'm a parent which I am, and so am I,
yeah, so I'm, I'm doing it.
Yeah, if someone's out thereand they're a parent and they're
like, I'm actually um, reallyconcerned about the safety of my
child.
I think what I just heard yousay is that a lot of sexual harm
happens within families or withsomebody that someone knows.
(19:02):
If, if I'm looking atregistries, am I looking in the
right place?
Am I keeping my child safe bydoing that?
Justyna (19:11):
No, because it could be someone in your family that can
do something to the child.
Like the registry is not aplace to use that to see.
And I think, like when you're aparent, like of course, you
should be worried for yourchild's safety and you shouldn't
, like let your child walkaround when they're young
(19:31):
anywhere by themselves or allowthem to go to someone's house
that you don't know, and it'snot because that person could
have committed a sexual offense,it's just something that you do
as a parent.
Like you should know the peoplethat your child is around, and
that goes for, like, people inthe community and your family
also, because, like I said a lotof times, it happens within the
(19:52):
home.
Amber (19:52):
So I think, like people are worried about not the wrong
thing, but are they're notpaying attention to what happens
in the home and they're moreworried about who's living in
their neighborhood the home andthey're more worried about who's
living in their neighborhood,and so there's this expectation
that there's these, there's them, there's those kinds of people
(20:13):
that do these kinds of thingsbecause it's so abnormal and
it's a it can't stop, won't stopthat kind of thing when,
reality, we've created a culturewhere sexual harm can happen,
and so we need to look at thoserisks right, like we need to
educate our children and ourparents and people in general
about, like, how this actuallyhappens and what we can do to
(20:36):
prevent it.
Does that sound right?
Justyna (20:38):
Yes, and teaching our children not to keep secrets,
like having those conversationsearly on that if you feel
uncomfortable, you need to saysomething.
Amber (20:47):
I think that is so important, so you were doing
this work and you started to seethose injustices right, and so
you got a little bit more.
You got involved withRestorative Action Alliance.
You got involved in some ofyour schoolwork you're teaching
at John Jay and then you decidedto do something else.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (21:09):
So then I decided to work on Rikers Island.
An opportunity came up.
I was working in my previousemployment for 11 years.
I became a clinical director.
I specialized in sex offensetreatment.
So since I was so interested inlike criminal justice reform, I
(21:31):
thought you know why don't Iwork on Rikers Island and see
how it really is?
So then when I do work tochange these policies and laws
because I've never beenincarcerated myself I can talk
about that experience and what Isaw while I was working there.
Jason (21:47):
So, justina, rikers Island lives in the imagination
of a lot of people because it'sin New York and it's featured in
movies and different TV showsand things like that.
But had you ever been to, whereis Rikers Island relative to
say, manhattan, like where isRikers?
Justyna (22:07):
Island.
So Rikers Island is in Queensbut it's on the other side of
Queens where I live and it's anisland, so it's kind of like
removed from everyone.
It's not easy to get there.
You have to take like a bunchof buses, it's just, it's away
and like a lot of people knowabout Rikers Island but have not
ever been to Rikers.
Jason (22:29):
So when you decide I'm going to go work there, that's
going to be are you a little bitnervous at first?
And just to go for an interview, you've got to go through what
you just described, which isit's got to be kind of a weird
experience.
No, yes.
Justyna (22:49):
So I was definitely nervous because I did read about
Rikers.
I always kept up with thearticles on the news and
everything that was going on,but I thought it wasn't going to
be as bad as it was because Iwas working directly in the
mental health units.
So a lot of things that youhear about Rikers like the
(23:10):
violence it usually happens ingeneral populations.
You don't really hear muchabout the mental health units
and these are specialized unitsand they said they're a lot
safer People.
The patients there are able toget their medications.
So like I think that's what Itold myself and this is what I
was told that it's.
It's a little different fromlike general population.
Jason (23:34):
What year is this?
Justyna (23:36):
So this is 2023, december 2023.
Jason (23:40):
So not that long ago.
So you're talking at the lastyear, at the end of last year,
less than a year ago, so inDecember 2023.
So not that long ago.
So you're talking at the end oflast year, less than a year ago
, so in December 2023.
So it's still relatively freshin your mind.
So you're going to go there,for did you interview there
before you work there?
Yes, so tell us about yeah tellus about, walk us through your
thought process and that daythat you're going for the
(24:01):
interview.
Justyna (24:03):
So I interviewed first on Zoom and then my second
interview was on the island.
It was a little different thanwhat I expected and we went on
different units and I met thepatients there and it was fine.
And I think my concern was howam I going to feel working there
(24:24):
?
Am I going to feel comfortable?
And when I did interview, I didfeel comfortable.
A lot of the patients came upto me, spoke to me and I didn't
feel uncomfortable.
So I was like, okay, I can dothis.
However, at that time I didn'tknow everything else.
I didn't know how the staff is,how the officers are.
(24:44):
I was just happy that I was.
I felt comfortable being aroundthe patients.
Amber (24:49):
Okay, and so I remember, justina, when you said that you
were considering doing this,because we've known each other
for a little while, and Iremember thinking to myself, oh
wow, I don't know everythingthat you hear about Rikers, all
of those things and I was like,wow, good for you wanting to
change things from the inside.
And so was that your intention.
(25:11):
You thought you would be ableto bring some sort of empathy or
compassion to folks who reallyneeded it in a dark place.
Justyna (25:19):
Yes, that was why I decided to do it.
I really thought I could makechange from the inside and help
those individuals.
Amber (25:28):
And tell us.
So.
You interview, you get the job,you show up, it's day one and
you're ready to help.
What happens?
Justyna (25:38):
So on the day one I felt optimistic.
I met the patients.
I ran into a lot of my oldpatients from the program that I
was working with, people onparole which I was happy to see
them but not happy to see themin that kind of setting.
But I was very surprised howmany people I ran into those
first few days.
(25:58):
It was like orientation.
It's just really when I starteddoing the work, that's when I
really saw what was going onthere so what was going on there
?
so I saw that a lot of peoplewere being locked in and this
was most shocking, even like inmy first few days when I saw
these individuals in their cellswith feces all over, with flies
(26:22):
like that was shocking to mebecause I've never seen people
live like this.
I've seen homeless people.
I ride the New York City trainevery day and I just I've never
seen people like this.
But then, as time went on, Isaw okay, they're being locked
in for another week, and anotherweek I saw all these patterns.
Amber (26:47):
And what were the causes?
Again, just for people who maynot be familiar or understand
mental illness or anything likethat, was this a safety measure?
Was this necessary becausesomebody was acting out in a
violent way and so they'regetting locked in and then that
that's the barrier, don't wehave to do that?
Justyna (27:06):
So no, it wasn't Now.
Of course, when they did a useof force, they locked the
individual in, but those are notthe individuals that I'm
speaking about and that didn'thappen.
Often I found, as I continuedto work there, that it wasn't
valid reasons.
A lot of times it's so hard tosay and I get asked this all the
(27:28):
time but it's so hard to saywhat the exact reasons were,
because I don't really knowbecause this was not documented
anywhere.
So when I came into work andsomebody was locked in and I
would ask the officers, theywere like, oh yeah, he did
something, but we're not surebecause we weren't here
yesterday so it was really hard.
(27:50):
But it was reasons, as I'veseen clients get locked in
because they got loud with anofficer, they raised their voice
, they were like demanding, theywere acting like odd, like
reasons for that.
It wasn't that they were asafety, there was a safety
(28:11):
concern to the unit and what arethe actual rules within the
facility?
Amber (28:17):
I can't imagine that the rules say that somebody should
be locked in a cage for weeks onend, particularly somebody with
mental illness.
Justyna (28:28):
So no you're not supposed to lock anyone in with
a severe mental illness, theindividuals that I worked with.
They had diagnosis ofschizophrenia, schizoaffective
disorder, bipolar depression,and those individuals are not
supposed to ever be locked in.
So those were the rules and,like I stated, the officers knew
(28:51):
that these were the rules andthis is why they never
documented it.
When they sprayed someone andthere was a use of force, they
had to fill out paperwork andI've seen them fill it out.
However, when they were lockingsomeone in and they use the
term deadlock they neverdocumented it and there were
(29:12):
different officers almost everyday, so it was really difficult
to know exactly what happenedwhen we were not there, the
mental health staff.
Jason (29:20):
Yeah.
So, Justina, fast forward andthen come back for a second.
If I fast forward, you've sinceleft Rikers.
You've been in the news severaltimes over the last week
because you have gone publicwith what you've seen and
observed while you were thereand these horrific conditions,
so what you're describing.
(29:41):
It sounds like there's adisconnect between the policies
that they have in place tohandle and what was actually
happening in practice, and Amberhad made a comment a few
minutes ago about you were goingto go in to try to change
things from the inside, which itsounds like probably seemed too
(30:04):
big for you to be able tochange from the inside.
Why do you think this washappening?
Is it because they've got quotebad people running the show who
just want to harm other people?
Are they not trained properly?
Is there not enough staff?
(30:25):
What's going on and what areyou observing?
Justyna (30:28):
So I do think that it's definitely lack of training.
The officers do not understandmental health.
Also, some of the officerswanted me to send certain
patients to general populationand will make statements like oh
, he's not really mentally ill,he's faking it, when this person
was and had a documentedhistory of a severe mental
(30:51):
illness.
It's lack of training, I thinkalso definitely lack of staff.
Sometimes it was only oneofficer on the floor.
There's always supposed to betwo and I think it's easier for
people to just lock someone inand not deal with them and, I
think, support from theircaptains and supervisors.
(31:14):
A lot of the officers work manyshifts, like even three shifts
in a row, because there's lackof staff and they're tired and
overwhelmed.
And I've heard from officersthat, let's say they have an
event that they are supposed togo see their child perform, they
(31:35):
can't say no.
If they're told, like you haveto do overtime, we need you,
they can't say no.
I have something going on andthey voiced this to me because
there were times, you know, wewould speak about these issues.
So it's definitely lack oftraining.
Amber (31:50):
They don't understand mental illness and support and
lack of staff and do you thinksome of the culture of the
facility itself contributes tothe lack of staff?
Because we want to be clear,like it's not a funding issue,
(32:10):
it's just a lack of people whoare willing, because, again, as
we spoke about before, when youeven say Rikers Island, whether
you're a social worker, you're acorrections officer, someone
who might find themselves lockedup there, nobody's saying yay,
(32:32):
hey, let's go do this.
Justyna (32:33):
Does that feel right?
Yes, it does.
And I remember anytime thatthere's a new class that comes
in of correction officers,everybody says it and we see it
that they only last like a fewdays and then they say I don't
want to do this anymore.
So it's definitely the cultureand I think people don't
understand, like I said, say Idon't want to do this anymore.
So it's definitely the cultureand I think people don't
understand.
Like I said, the correctionalofficers don't understand mental
illness.
So they may think, oh, thisperson is an a-hole or something
(32:55):
because this is how they'rereacting.
But it's not because of that,it's because of their mental
health.
And I think the way they lookat these individuals, they come
in already with a bias.
They're like this person is acriminal, they're just trying to
get over.
So then they react to thatindividual in a certain way and
then, of course, the patientwill react back in a certain way
(33:18):
.
So I think they already comewith this bias and I've seen
some officers very few that werereally great and like the way
they spoke to the patients andeven provided them really good,
helpful advice, but that wasvery few and those officers did
not have any problems with thepatients there because they
(33:39):
spoke to the patients likethey're human beings and those
patients did not cause anyproblems for them.
I think the problem also is alot of the officers think that
they can talk to theseindividuals in any kind of way
and the individual the patientis not supposed to react is a
problem, because if you're goingto disrespect someone, like
(34:01):
what do you expect them to do?
They're going to say somethingback.
Amber (34:04):
And do you think that Rikers Island is the right place
for someone with a mentalillness?
Justyna (34:10):
No, no, I feel like, from what I saw in those nine
months, it makes the individualworse.
I've seen patients locked infor weeks, even months, like I
stated smearing feces, cursing,yelling, and what happens is and
this goes back to the lack ofunderstanding of mental health
(34:35):
If they lock someone in for afew days because that person has
made some threats nothingphysical that individual now has
no access to their medicationsbecause the medications come on
the floor and is locked in acell.
So they began to decompensateand then they begin to smear
feces and maybe get aggressive.
So the officers say we can'tlet this individual out because
they're smearing feces.
(34:56):
Yes, they're smearing fecesbecause they're locked in.
And they'll say we can't letthis individual out because
they're aggressive and they'rescreaming and cursing, yes,
because they're locked in.
So there's such a hugedisconnect.
Amber (35:09):
So it becomes a vicious cycle, it seems.
Justyna (35:13):
Yeah.
So they'll use that as anexcuse.
No, we can't let him out.
Now he's flooding his cell andthey say he likes to play with
shit.
They don't say smearing feces,they use that term playing with
shit.
So they'll say, yeah, no, wecan't let him out.
He's playing with shit.
Yes, because he's locked in.
So there's just such a hugedisconnect.
Jason (35:33):
If you, justina, could redesign the process, the system
like, what would it look like?
How would it be different?
Justyna (35:42):
Yeah, so definitely the officers would have more mental
health training to be able torecognize like signs and
symptoms of a mental illness andjust not be able to lock anyone
in.
And, like I said, thoseofficers that I met, who were
great very few, I would say likethree of them like the way they
(36:05):
interacted with the patientslike made such a difference.
I remember there was oneofficer on my unit and he was
the only one which meant thatthe unit was on red status and I
observed how he spoke to thepatients and, like I said, he
gave them really good, valuableadvice.
He spoke to them with respect,he was able to deescalate A lot
(36:26):
of them don't know how todeescalate and there was no
issues on the unit the whole dayand like he was playing chess
with them in the middle of theunit, being the only officer on
the floor because he knew how todeescalate.
Jason (36:42):
So in the environment you're in, it sounds like
de-escalation has a lot to dowith seeing these people as
human beings, regardless of thesituation and the context.
Right that they're human, andtreating somebody like you might
treat a family member andfiguring out how do I get
through to them in this moment,by whatever that means,
(37:04):
approaching them where they areand calming the situation down.
But in a typical prisonsituation you are going to, by
nature of that, you do as I tellyou type of thing, and when you
don't, that's where theescalation comes from and it
just makes things much worse.
(37:25):
That's the training that you'retalking about yes and not to
take things personally.
Justyna (37:31):
I found that the officers a lot of times took
things personally.
So if the patient is cursing,yelling at them, they take it so
personal and they say he's notreally mentally ill.
He knew exactly what he wasdoing, so let's lock him in
because he called me so and sowhen it's no, this person is
(37:54):
mentally ill so like it's 2024now, but you were there in 2023.
Jason (38:02):
there have been calls to shut down Rikers Island.
There's all this mediaattention, even before your
story, and we know better as asociety.
So do you have any theories forwhy we can't get there, for why
we can't get this training andwhat's going on?
Amber (38:24):
I like the way you framed the question, but I also think
is there space to consider thefact that maybe jails and
prisons in general are not theplace for people with mental
illness Because, again, just bythe nature of being in a prison,
you are treated in a certainway.
(38:48):
It is a certain type of culture, it's criminalization of
behaviors that, honestly, can beharmful, like we're not here to
say that sometimes behaviorsare not harmful.
How do we create a space thatkeeps people safe?
Right, and that means everyone,that means the people who are
(39:12):
caring for the people who aresuffering from mental illness.
Does that look like a jail orprison?
Justyna (39:19):
I don't think so.
I think they should not be in ajail or prison.
However, since they are like,these are the suggestions that I
have.
Right, but they can understandmental illness, but no, they
shouldn't be there at all.
I don't think a jail or aprison could ever be able to
care for these people the waythat they should be cared for.
But unfortunately, people witha mental illness, they get sent
(39:45):
to jail, and I remember everypatient that I met on my unit
with a severe mental illness.
When they were arrested for thecrime, all of them were not on
their medications.
I've never met one individualwho told me like yeah, I
committed this crime, I wasarrested, but I was taking my
meds and I had a stable place tolive.
(40:05):
All of them were off theirmedications.
So I don't think that theyshould be sent to jail.
They should really be in apsychiatric hospital where they
can receive the treatment thatthey need.
Amber (40:21):
And so what you mentioned and I meant to ask you then,
but you mentioned that some ofthe individuals that you had
worked with previously you sawthem at Rikers Was that related
to technical violations?
Had they committed new crimes?
Do you even know Like?
Why do you think that washappening?
(40:42):
People?
Justyna (40:43):
on parole no longer get incarcerated for technical
violations in New York, which isgreat.
But the people that I saw comeback, it was because a lot of
times they were not on theirmedication, they did not have
stable housing and another crimewas committed, but it was
because of all those thingshappening.
(41:03):
A lot of them were homeless,off their medications.
Using drugs didn't have thesupports that they needed in the
community to be successful.
Amber (41:14):
I understand.
That's very interesting,because that's some of the
things that most re-entryprofessionals and social
scientists and all of theresearch tells us that the way
to be successful in reentry isto have the support that you
need.
But I don't understand whypeople think this is rocket
(41:34):
science.
It's not surprising that if youthink about your own life right
, if you are struggling to finda place to lay your head, you
might find yourself in desperatesituations where you act like
you wouldn't normally act.
If you are living under anoppressive situation where
(41:54):
people may act out against youbecause they believe something
about you that may not be whoyou are, you may act accordingly
.
Does that, does that feel likea clear characterization?
Justyna (42:07):
Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened to those
individuals.
Jason (42:13):
Yeah, I would say, though , Amber.
The only spin I would put onthat, though, is that there are
other.
There are people who have beenin the same situation as someone
, who does end up acting out,who don't act out, and then they
say look, how come?
How come I was able to do it,but they aren't.
So I think that's you gotthere's everybody.
Everybody reacts differently,and nobody has the exact same
(42:35):
situation as anybody else, so wedo have to be careful with
those, and I think, justina,it's interesting so you were
there for nine months was yourbreaking point?
What happened?
Justyna (42:51):
I mean I don't know.
I don't know if it was onemoment it was just seeing what
is going on and me not beingable to help.
I mean, there's a few instanceswhere I was just like I need to
get out of this.
This is just not fair.
I've made progress withpatients and then over the
weekend something happened andnow the person's back locked in
(43:13):
and I have to start from thebeginning.
So there were a lot of momentslike that.
Amber (43:18):
And who determines how people get unlocked, like so, if
they're deadlocked, who says,okay, now we can let the guy out
or person out.
Justyna (43:29):
Yeah, sorry.
So the officers do so a lot oftimes we would coordinate with
the officers.
There were a few officers veryfew on our, on my unit who we
knew allow everyone to be lockedout.
So a lot of times we had towait for those officers to come
in.
We knew their schedules, so wewould say, okay, tomorrow,
(43:52):
so-and-so is back to work, andthen let's talk to them tomorrow
, because we know they let theguys out and we'll advocate.
However, the next day maybe oneof the officers was out A lot
of times because of the shortageof officers, they were put in
another unit.
So then we would have to waittill like the next day.
(44:14):
Sometimes they were on vacation.
So we had to like reallystrategize because we knew, yeah
, this person is never lettingthem out, so let's not even ask.
But so, and so is coming later,let's ask them.
And the patients even knew thatI had a lot of guys on my unit
that were like higherfunctioning and they would also
(44:34):
complain and say you see, weneed to get this person out.
Do you see how they're likeliving?
This is horrible.
So, and so is coming later,let's ask them.
Amber (44:43):
Like the patients were very involved in this as well,
and so these weren't being basedon like professional decisions
but like personal style ofwhatever it was that, however
the particular correctionsofficer operated.
Some people were more open tounlocking than others, when
(45:04):
really it seems like a betterway to do that would be upon
recommendation of a treatmentprovider.
Justyna (45:11):
Yes, and mental health never suggested for anyone to be
locked in and we were told byour director supervisors that we
can never, ever even make thatsuggestion.
That's not something we believein, so we would never suggest
for someone to be locked in.
Um, there were some mentalhealth staff that did, but
(45:33):
overall this is what we weretold and then we will try to
talk to the officers to allowthe individual out.
And it was really hard becausea lot of times we had to go to
the patient and say please don'tscream, for today Don't bang so
and so is coming tomorrow We'llask them, but, like for one day
, can you just not bang orscream.
(45:54):
And that was really difficultbecause already that person was
decompensated.
Amber (45:59):
So they didn't have the capability, exactly, yeah.
Justyna (46:02):
And a lot of times what would happen is we would send
our patients to Bellevue.
Bellevue has a prison wardwhere they take our patients, so
when somebody was locked in thecell for weeks and
decompensated, we would sendthem to Bellevue.
We would do a referral.
A lot of times Bellevue wouldsend the individual back because
that person, in order to beadmitted to Bellevue, would have
(46:25):
to be admitted involuntarily,and there's a specific criteria
they have to meet be a danger tothemselves or someone else.
A lot of the patientsdecompensated but were not a
danger to somebody else andtherefore Bellevue was not able
to admit them.
So then they would go back anda lot of the patients had have
(46:47):
had a 7 30 order, which meansthey were unfit to proceed with
their court proceedings.
So they were waiting to go toomh and we were hoping okay,
this person is high on the list,hopefully they'll go to omh any
day now, because we've sentthem to bellevue but bellevue
didn't accept them.
They're still locked, locked in.
(47:08):
There's nothing else we can do,so just to be clear Rikers is a
jail.
Amber (47:14):
It is a lot of people there are pre-trial.
Is that correct?
Yes, so you know we're talkingabout people who are awaiting
trial and that is being held upbecause they're being put in a
situation that is causing themto decompensate.
Justyna (47:30):
So it's not being held up because of that.
The wait list to OMH is long.
It's about four months.
Amber (47:38):
And what is OMH?
For those who don't know.
Justyna (47:41):
Okay, office of Mental Health.
So they either are sent toKirby Forensic, psychiatric or
Mid-Hudson, and I've seen manyof my patients come back from
those hospitals and they'recompletely different people
because they're not locked in,they have access to their
medications, they attend groups,they receive treatment, and
(48:01):
it's people that I can't evenrecognize them when they come
back.
Jason (48:05):
Wow, that's crazy.
And so then you, you leave,your, you make the difficult
decision to to leave the job.
And then you decided how longdid it take you to decide to go
public with the story?
Justyna (48:22):
So I already knew I was going to do this before I left.
Like I had this plan, like thatwas one of the reasons that I
left, because I did say tomyself I can do more about this
from the outside.
So that was like a reason toleave.
I could never do this while Iwas still working there because
of retaliation and backlash.
(48:43):
So I already had that plan.
I've already spoken to peopleand then I received another job
so I was able to resign.
So right after my last day,like I started working on this.
Jason (48:56):
Did you let your new employer know you were going to
be going public?
Okay, and then, so, then youdid.
So what was that like?
Were you nervous and what wereyou?
What was happening?
Justyna (49:10):
like Were you nervous and what were you?
What was happening?
I was.
I was nervous, but I gotconnected to lawyers and who
have all of their clients onRikers Island, so they knew
exactly.
You know what was going on.
They did not know that this wasgoing on in the mental health
units.
They were not surprised justbecause of how Rikers is, but
they did not know all thespecifics and they even said
(49:30):
that they would always advocatefor their clients to go to the
mental health units because theybelieve that these units were
safe.
Jason (49:38):
Yeah, that's what you were told before you took your
job, right?
Justyna (49:41):
Yes, so they were like shocked but not surprised,
because it's Rikers and theywere very supportive.
They've been with me every stepof the way.
They're the ones that connectedme to the daily news, to New
York One News.
They helped me write mytestimony when I testified
before the board of correction.
Yeah, they were, they were withme through every step, when I
(50:03):
was doing the interview.
They were with me also.
So I felt really supported andthat helped so much because I
don't know if I could be able todo this on my own.
I don't know what.
I didn't even know what to do,like where to go, who to talk to
.
They deal with these cases,they have these contacts and
they were able to connect me.
Jason (50:23):
So would you describe the last week?
What has your, what's your lifebeen like and what has the
response been?
Justyna (50:29):
Yeah, so it's been a crazy week for sure.
The response has been verypositive.
So many people have reached outto me or so happy that I came
forward.
Like I received so much supportand love and it's been great.
Thank God I'm not there becausein Rikers because, like I said,
I can't imagine doing thiswhile I was there, like I don't,
(50:52):
I would never do it, like Iwouldn't be safe doing it I did
hear like a lot of talk about mein the jail, because I do have
a friend that still, like, worksthere.
I have actually two friendsthat still work there, so
they've told me like what isbeing said.
So I'm just grateful that I'mnot there.
But, yeah, I received a lot ofsupport from a lot of people.
Amber (51:15):
And do you anticipate there as you mentioned, you
testified in front of the Boardof Corrections there is talk of
an investigation that is goingon.
Justyna (51:32):
Are you hopeful that, in speaking out that there will
be, transparency and also change, yes, so I'm happy that they're
willing to do an investigation,and this is why I want to
continue speaking out about this, because I don't want this
story to die down and then, youknow, the officers go back to
doing what that is quo.
Yes, so I'm going to continuespeaking out about this.
(51:53):
I'm going to be meeting withdifferent people to address this
and continue to talk about itso that an investigation is done
.
Amber (52:01):
And I.
What is it that drives you sowhen you you know the day you're
leaving?
You have had, you've met, a lotof these people who are
incarcerated and in the mentalhealth unit there.
What were your feelings about?
Like leaving them behind?
Justyna (52:18):
I was so sad and it was so hard to make the decision to
resign because I did feelguilty.
I was like I'm just giving up.
There's not many people therethat really want to help and I
just felt such guilt, I'm justgiving up.
But that's why I promisedmyself, even if I leave, I'm
gonna do something about this.
And just because I'm leavingthere does not mean that I'm not
(52:40):
still trying to help thoseindividuals that are there.
It's just I'm doing it in adifferent way, in a way that's
more effective.
Yeah, it seems like you're goingto have a much larger impact
than you were able to have fromthe inside Right, and that's
what I thought about when I madethat decision.
(53:00):
There's just such a littlechange that I can make on the
inside, but I can make a biggerchange being on the outside and
that's what drove my decision toresign.
And I remember my last day, thepatients from my two units.
They made me like beautifulcards that they worked on in
their art group for a long time,like they wrote really nice
(53:21):
things, they colored it.
It was so nice and I was like,yeah, this is exactly why I'm
doing this to help thoseindividuals.
Amber (53:29):
And I think that I do have to say what you're doing is
amazing and we're very proud tohave you on the board of
Restorative Action Alliance andall of the work that you have
done and are continuing to do.
Absolutely, what do you thinklike your trajectory looks like?
I know that you've you'reworking on your PhD.
(53:50):
I believe you're doing somethings around voting rights for
people who are formerlyincarcerated.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (53:59):
Yes.
So I'm really interested invoting rights for justice.
Impacted individuals, impactedindividuals.
And this goes back to the jobwhere I was working with people
on parole.
I found out that most of themdid not know that they can even
vote in New York, and in NewYork, once you're released from
incarceration, your votingrights are restored right away.
And I also noticed that a lotof my coworkers working with
(54:24):
that specific population didn'tknow either.
And for me, I think it's soimportant to be able to vote,
because that's how you get yourvoice back, especially when
you're reintegrating back intothe community, into the society.
So about a few weeks ago, I diddo a voting event.
I went back to my old job andthey allowed me to register the
(54:46):
clients that are coming into theprogram.
A lot of them come in person,they do group, they do
individual sessions and I wasable to register them.
And Reform Alliance, which Igot involved with over the
summer, helped me and sponsoredthat event, and it was great
because I've met individualsthat never voted in their life.
(55:07):
For example, one client inparticular.
He was incarcerated for 21years and before he was
incarcerated he never voted, andthis was the first time that he
was able to vote and he wasjust so excited and I was so
happy to be able to like sharethat moment with him and
register him.
Amber (55:26):
That's amazing, and I think that in our, in my travels
, in my experience, I do meet alot of people who either a think
that it's not available to thembecause that messaging is out
there, because it's different indifferent areas, and or say,
why should I vote?
Because nobody cares about meand my voice won't be heard.
(55:47):
What is your sort of responseto that?
Justyna (55:51):
Yes, I try to educate them that, no, your voice is can
be heard.
And I think also because theseindividuals have been
incarcerated and even beforethey were incarcerated they felt
like their voice doesn't matterbecause of their personal
experiences just with the systemwith mass incarceration.
They feel like it doesn'tbecause of their personal
experiences just with the systemwith mass incarceration.
They feel like it doesn't.
(56:11):
Their voice is not heard, and Itotally understand where
they're coming from.
But I try to educate them on,like, the importance of voting
and that their vote does matter,especially in like local
elections in the communitiesthat they live in, like they can
make a difference.
And if everybody thinks that myvoice doesn't matter, then like
nobody would vote, it wouldvote and then the elections
(56:33):
would be different.
So I just try to educate themand tell them how important it
is that before recently peopleon parole were not able to vote
and because of massincarceration, most people that
are incarcerated a large numberare people of color where one
time in history they were notable to vote either.
So it's it's very important.
Amber (56:55):
Yeah, thank you so much.
That's really exciting and,again, I think the combination
of all the things that you'redoing will really make a big
difference for a lot of people.
Will really make a bigdifference for a lot of people.
So if you were speaking tosomeone who was at the very
beginning of a journey that issimilar to yours and you had one
(57:15):
piece of advice for them in 30seconds, what would that be?
Justyna (57:21):
So I think the advice I would give them is not to give
up and that sometimes you maythink like you can't make a
change, but you really can.
You can.
You just have to believe inyourself and never give up.
There were times where I feltlike why am I doing this?
Maybe I should just put Rikersbehind me, like it was
traumatizing.
But then I always remember likewhat I'm doing this for and who
(57:45):
I'm doing this for remember,like what I'm doing this for and
who I'm doing this for Love.
Jason (57:51):
That, jason.
Any last thoughts?
Sure, I think.
Justina thanks for coming on,and as I listened to your story,
I knew a little bit hearingmore of it today.
I know it's very difficult.
It's very easy for somebody tosay, oh yeah, I would just leave
that job or I would just walkaway.
The idea that you actually hadthe courage to both leave the
(58:15):
job that you had and then toactually do something, to take a
stand, to figure out how tomobilize resources around you
and to get the word out in a waythat's effective and productive
, that's going to see realchange, I think it's something
that you should be really proudof.
I'm glad to know you and I'mglad that we're working with you
(58:37):
, and thank you for being on thepodcast today.
Justyna (58:41):
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
This is my first podcasttalking about this, so that's
really exciting, and Idefinitely wanted to do it with
you guys.
Jason (58:51):
Appreciate it Won't be the last.
Justyna (58:52):
Yeah, definitely.
There'll be more talks and moreevents that I will be joining
that I'm really excited about.
To like continue spreading thisinformation, thank you so much,
Justina.
Amber (59:04):
Thank you.
Jason (59:06):
Until next time, Amber.
Amber (59:07):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (59:13):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
AmplifiedVoicesshow you.
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Hello, Amber.
Amber (00:43):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:44):
Amber.
Today we have Justina, helloJustina.
Amber (00:49):
Hi, good morning.
Good morning, justina, goodmorning.
Jason (00:54):
Justina, we are going to start with the same question we
ask our guests, and that iscould you tell us a little bit
about your life before youentered the criminal legal
system and what brought you intoit?
Justyna (01:13):
Sure, Thank you.
So I was always interested inthe criminal legal system and
criminal justice reform.
So I went to school for myundergrad in forensic psychology
in John Jay College of CriminalJustice and then for my
master's in social work.
And once I graduated with mymaster's in social work, I
started working in an outpatientprogram.
Where did you grow up?
Where did you grow up?
I grew up in New York City.
Jason (01:36):
You grew up in New York City, right in the city.
Justyna (01:38):
Yes, in Queens, New York.
Jason (01:40):
Okay, and then John Jay is in one of the boroughs.
Justyna (01:44):
Yes, it's in Manhattan All right.
Jason (01:46):
So then you went straight from undergrad to master's.
Justyna (01:49):
Yes, and that was also in city.
That was in Hunter College.
Jason (01:54):
Okay, All right.
So you went for your first job,and it was.
Justyna (01:59):
So the first job was an outpatient substance abuse and
mental health program withpeople that are on parole and
mandated to treatment.
Amber (02:10):
And so when you went into that job, what were your
expectations?
You were really excited.
You had just graduated.
Now you're doing the work.
What happened when you gotthere?
What did you experience?
Justyna (02:22):
I mean, I didn't know what to expect.
I was like really thrown intoit, but it was really exciting
because, like I said, this wasthe population that I always
wanted to work with and therewas never like a time that, like
I was afraid to work with thispopulation.
Like it was just really likeexcitement and just being able
to work.
Jason (02:43):
What was that day in the life?
Right, You're right out ofgraduate school, right, and you
show up and you're working withsomebody who has been in prison,
who has now recently beenreleased I'm assuming they're on
parole and so they show up.
And I mean, what's that dynamiclike for you?
How did you approach your work?
And what's a day in the life?
Justyna (03:05):
So the day in the life was I had a caseload of clients
that I would have to see everyday, so I had sessions
throughout the day.
But, like I said it was, itwasn't definitely what I
expected, but it wasn't anythinglike shocking, like I just
viewed these individuals asindividuals coming home from
prison and we were able to talk,they were able to open up to me
(03:28):
, so it was a good experience.
Amber (03:31):
You mentioned that you had always been interested in
this kind of work.
Did this come from some lifeexperience?
Did this come from a mentor?
What got you interested inworking with those who are in
reentry?
Justyna (03:44):
It's so hard to say, and a lot of people ask me that
it wasn't any kind of particularexperience in my life.
It's just I don't know.
I was always interested in thispopulation and I remember being
in grad school and there wasanother intern from another
school and we were just talkingabout, like the populations we
want to work with, and she said,oh, I would never like work
(04:07):
with people that have committedsexual offenses she used another
term for it, of course and Isaid, oh, really, I wouldn't
mind.
So, like it's so hard to say,like I don't know, it was just
always this interest that I had.
Jason (04:19):
Is that the population that you were working with?
Justyna (04:22):
Yes, so it was people on parole, but mostly people
that were convicted of sexualoffenses, so the program had a
sex offense treatment that Iended up specializing in.
Jason (04:35):
And you are a treatment provider.
Amber (04:38):
When you're working in this position, I know that you
met a lot of people.
How many people were in theprogram as far as employees?
What is the size of the program?
So at that time.
Justyna (04:51):
it was a pretty small program.
We just had one location in thecity, but I would say how many
people this was like 11 yearsago it was maybe like seven
therapists.
I would say it was very smalland probably like over 200 or
(05:13):
maybe even less clients.
The program grew a lot over thepast few years.
Amber (05:16):
What were the kinds of things that people who were in
re-entry, who were in this typeof treatment, what were the kind
of things that they wereexperiencing in their lives as
they were trying to come home?
Justyna (05:29):
They had a lot of difficulty with housing because
of the housing restrictions.
They all had to live in theshelter.
So that was, I would say, themain concern that would always
come up that they did not wantto live in the shelter, the
conditions of the shelter upthat they did not want to live
in the shelter, the conditionsof the shelter.
And for a lot of them, findingemployment and just being
(05:50):
mandated to a program which theydidn't like in the beginning.
Amber (05:55):
And so, as the person that was helping them sort of
emotionally navigate some ofthose things, what did you find
you could be helpful with?
Because some of these thingsare mandated by law.
Right, People were living inthe shelter.
Why Was it because of laws?
Was it because of the lack ofemployment?
A combination of all of thosethings?
(06:15):
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (06:17):
Right.
So it was because of the laws,of the housing restrictions.
They couldn't live close to aschool, so they had to live in
the shelter.
That's where their paroleofficer would go to see them.
So it wasn't even like lack ofemployment, because some of the
clients did have jobs and hadplaces to live at with their
(06:38):
families, but because of therestrictions they had to live in
those shelters.
Jason (06:44):
And in New York there's a tiering system.
Right, yes, Were you workingwith people on the three tiers?
Justyna (06:54):
We did provide sex offense treatment, but it wasn't
anything based on the tiers.
We have people tier one, tiertwo, tier three, all the tiers
tier one, tier two, tier three,all the tiers.
Amber (07:10):
And so what is your opinion as a treatment provider
of the tiering system in NewYork?
Justyna (07:13):
I really think it's not fair, because I did have
clients who were a tier threebut their offense was not
against a child, like it waswith an adult, but because they
were a tier three automaticallythey couldn't live by a school,
which I thought was soridiculous.
But even if their offense wasagainst the child, like I know,
(07:36):
the research that's out therethat shows it doesn't do
anything to help and it justmade my clients more frustrated,
hopeless at finding a place tolive.
Jason (07:47):
When you're doing this type of work and you're going in
and you're seeing some of thesethings, does it affect your
outlook and your own mentalhealth?
Did you feel any issues relatedto that?
Outro (08:01):
Yeah, for sure, I definitely felt really bad for
my clients you've been listeningto amplified voices, a podcast
looking the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
Justyna (08:13):
For more information, episodes and podcast notes,
visit amplifiedvoicesshowfrustration and I felt like I
always had to like defend my,and later on I learned that
there's people that I can talkto about this and certain people
I just can't have thoseconversations with.
Jason (08:31):
Did you walk in with preconceived notions, like that
whole idea that once a sexoffender, always a sex offender
those things that we hear out inthe world on a regular basis?
Did you walk in with thosetypes of, with that type of
thinking, or were you somewhereelse?
Justyna (08:48):
yeah, I didn't.
Like I said, I thought likeeveryone could change and I
wanted to help everyone.
So I didn't have thispreconceived like notion, like
these opinions.
I just believe that, like,every person can change and can
have a better life.
And that's why I go back tothat story with my, with the
other intern, which was like Iwould never work with this
(09:11):
population.
I was like, oh, like I wouldn'tmind.
Jason (09:14):
Did you have a lot of interaction with parole officers
?
Justyna (09:19):
So at that time, when I first started, I didn't,
because we did have a legalliaison who would communicate
with parole.
They did not allow thetherapist to talk to parole,
which was good, because the onlything that we reported to
parole was if the person isattending and if they've tested
positive.
We didn't discuss what we'retalking about in our sessions,
(09:43):
what they're disclosing to us,so the therapist didn't even
speak to the parole officers.
Jason (09:49):
It sounds like there was a big wall between you and those
officers, which is notsomething I'm familiar with.
Is that common?
Maybe this is a question forAmber, you've seen it more where
there is that kind ofcollaboration between providers
and supervision.
Amber (10:08):
Yeah.
So I think it really depends onthe program.
It depends on what state you'rein, what model they're using.
There is a model and, justina,I'm sure you're familiar with it
, even if you have never workedwithin the model that is called
the containment model, havenever worked within the model
that is called the containmentmodel.
And so the containment modelbasically has the probation or
parole officer, it has thetreatment provider and it
(10:31):
includes victim advocacy, allworking together and having
access to information.
It's not a model that I thinkis very productive for the
person who is subject to thetreatment, because you have
probation or parole officersactually sitting in treatment
groups, which breaks down thistrust between provider, the
(10:54):
treatment provider and theclient, rather than the
individual as the client.
So we see that is prettypredominant around the country,
in different states, and so itsounds to me, justina, like that
was not the model that you wereworking under.
Justyna (11:14):
No, it was not and, like I said, I thought it was
good that the therapist didn'tcommunicate with the parole
officers because, like I said,we didn't disclose anything that
the client would tell us if theclient was in a new
relationship.
That is against confidentialityof the client.
The only thing we reported wasif the person is attending and
(11:35):
if they tested positive ornegative, because it was a
substance abuse program.
Amber (11:39):
Anything else there was no discussion of and and Justine
, I know you and I have had somediscussion about some of the
struggles you had as a providertrying to work with other
service providers who may havehad preconceived notions about
individuals who have this typeof convention, for instance,
(12:01):
trying to find somebody housingor trying to refer them to
another service.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Justyna (12:07):
Sure, yeah.
So I did find that in New York.
Even agencies and organizationsthat say we hire people that
have been convicted of a crime alot of times they say we'll
take everyone except for peopleon the registry.
So sometimes I will try to findprograms for my clients where
they can attend a training sothey can get a job.
(12:28):
But they were denied over andover again so it was really hard
to find like services for them.
Even in those organizationsthat do help people with a
criminal conviction, a lot oftimes, like I said, they said we
take anyone who's beenconvicted of any kind of crime
except for a sex offense.
Jason (12:49):
We've talked to a lot of people who have had convictions
themselves and the collateralconsequences of the people in
their orbit.
And in your case, you're aprofessional who hasn't
committed any offense, butyou're operating because you're
in this field.
You're operating with one handtied behind your back, right and
(13:09):
you've got you said right, youand you've got.
Your job is made much moredifficult because you're
supporting a population that hasthese barriers placed to them.
So it's interesting that thecollateral consequences even can
go into your personal life andthe way you approach your work
(13:29):
and your job, because you'rebasically going above and beyond
to do like your peers that aresitting next door don't have
those barriers Right, and youhave to overcome those barriers
just to provide help to yourclients and you have to overcome
those barriers just to providehelp to your clients.
Justyna (13:49):
Yes, and it was difficult because as I got into
this work I learned about a lotof different organizations that
help individuals get jobs,trainings.
But it was such a barrierbecause, like I said, they would
say we take everyone except forpeople on the registry and that
would get me like really upsetand I have to hold my emotions
back because I wanted to reactin a certain way to them because
(14:10):
I would say it's not fair, likethey need jobs too.
But that didn't help at all andit was hard to find those
specific like services forpeople that I was working with.
Jason (14:24):
As a trained professional , you're seeing these people and
you're probably developing likerelationships.
I don't want to characterizesomething yet, but like you're
developing like almostprofessional relationships with
people and so you want to helpthem, but you're struggling to
do that.
Justyna (14:42):
Yeah, I felt really bad .
I just felt like it was sounfair and I definitely wanted
to do something about it, tochange, and that's why I got
involved with this organization.
I decided to go obtain my PhDbecause I just saw how these
policies and laws that arecreated do not do anything to
(15:03):
help these individuals, and Ialso teach at John Jay College
of Criminal Justice.
I teach forensic psychology andthis often comes up with the
students that I teach.
The students are there becausethey want to work with the
forensic population, but theysay, yeah, I want to work with
everyone except for people thatcommitted a sex offense.
(15:23):
And that was very surprising tome, because these are students
who want to work with everyoneexcept for people that committed
a sex offense.
And that was very surprising tome because these are students
who want to work in this fieldand still have such a huge
stigma against this population.
Amber (15:36):
And so where do you think some of these stigmas stem from
?
Justyna (15:40):
Definitely the media and people's perception like
they view this population aspeople that are really like
scary.
They always ask if I had anysafety concerns while I was
working with them.
So it's definitely like themedia and like the image that
people are portrayed.
Amber (16:00):
And was that your experience?
Justyna (16:04):
No, and I always tell the students and anyone that I
talk to like I've never feltunsafe.
These are regular people thatand I always say you could be on
the train and you could besitting next to one who's
committed a sexual offense oranother crime and you would
never know.
Like they do not stand out,they're just regular people
(16:25):
coming home from prison tryingto rebuild their life.
I've always felt safe with myclients and I always talk about
how, like I know let's say I wason the train and something
would be happening and my clientwas there like they would be
the ones that would try to likehelp and not try to help.
Jason (16:42):
Justina, if you were to think back to the number of
people in this time period thatwe're talking about, how many
clients would you say you saw?
And you're saying zero of thoseclients caused you any type of
issue, never made you feelunsafe, never made you feel like
they were going to harass youin any way.
(17:03):
That's incredible.
But how many Hundreds?
Justyna (17:07):
Oh yeah, hundreds for sure, because at any time we
have over 200 patients, so I'vemet so many and I've worked
there for 11 years, so Iprobably worked with most of the
people convicted of a sexualoffense in New York at one point
(17:30):
or another.
And, yeah, I've never feltunsafe.
Jason (17:34):
Hey, Amber, you were in the military.
Was that as a woman for anumber of years?
Was that your experience thatyou never felt unsafe.
Amber (17:42):
No, not at all.
So I think my question becomeswhat is your response to people
that say well, I understand thatwasn't your experience and I
understand that you know it'sreally hard for these people,
but we're keeping children safeand this is what people deserve.
They should have thought ofthat before they did.
X, y, z.
Is everybody on the registry?
Justyna (18:12):
the type of person that's hiding in the bushes
ready to grab a child.
Was that your experience?
Yes, so a lot of people saythat, even to today.
My students say this, but Ialways respond with the facts
and the research and I tell themwhat the research says and the
studies that have been conductedthat know that it's not the
person like lurking in thebushes, that a lot of the sexual
offenses do happen within thefamily members, within the home,
(18:34):
someone that the child hasgained trust.
So I always just back it upwith the facts, the research.
Amber (18:40):
And so like, if I'm a parent which I am, and so am I,
yeah, so I'm, I'm doing it.
Yeah, if someone's out thereand they're a parent and they're
like, I'm actually um, reallyconcerned about the safety of my
child.
I think what I just heard yousay is that a lot of sexual harm
happens within families or withsomebody that someone knows.
(19:02):
If, if I'm looking atregistries, am I looking in the
right place?
Am I keeping my child safe bydoing that?
Justyna (19:11):
No, because it could be someone in your family that can
do something to the child.
Like the registry is not aplace to use that to see.
And I think, like when you're aparent, like of course, you
should be worried for yourchild's safety and you shouldn't
, like let your child walkaround when they're young
(19:31):
anywhere by themselves or allowthem to go to someone's house
that you don't know, and it'snot because that person could
have committed a sexual offense,it's just something that you do
as a parent.
Like you should know the peoplethat your child is around, and
that goes for, like, people inthe community and your family
also, because, like I said a lotof times, it happens within the
(19:52):
home.
Amber (19:52):
So I think, like people are worried about not the wrong
thing, but are they're notpaying attention to what happens
in the home and they're moreworried about who's living in
their neighborhood the home andthey're more worried about who's
living in their neighborhood,and so there's this expectation
that there's these, there's them, there's those kinds of people
(20:13):
that do these kinds of thingsbecause it's so abnormal and
it's a it can't stop, won't stopthat kind of thing when,
reality, we've created a culturewhere sexual harm can happen,
and so we need to look at thoserisks right, like we need to
educate our children and ourparents and people in general
about, like, how this actuallyhappens and what we can do to
(20:36):
prevent it.
Does that sound right?
Justyna (20:38):
Yes, and teaching our children not to keep secrets,
like having those conversationsearly on that if you feel
uncomfortable, you need to saysomething.
Amber (20:47):
I think that is so important, so you were doing
this work and you started to seethose injustices right, and so
you got a little bit more.
You got involved withRestorative Action Alliance.
You got involved in some ofyour schoolwork you're teaching
at John Jay and then you decidedto do something else.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (21:09):
So then I decided to work on Rikers Island.
An opportunity came up.
I was working in my previousemployment for 11 years.
I became a clinical director.
I specialized in sex offensetreatment.
So since I was so interested inlike criminal justice reform, I
(21:31):
thought you know why don't Iwork on Rikers Island and see
how it really is?
So then when I do work tochange these policies and laws
because I've never beenincarcerated myself I can talk
about that experience and what Isaw while I was working there.
Jason (21:47):
So, justina, rikers Island lives in the imagination
of a lot of people because it'sin New York and it's featured in
movies and different TV showsand things like that.
But had you ever been to, whereis Rikers Island relative to
say, manhattan, like where isRikers?
Justyna (22:07):
Island.
So Rikers Island is in Queensbut it's on the other side of
Queens where I live and it's anisland, so it's kind of like
removed from everyone.
It's not easy to get there.
You have to take like a bunchof buses, it's just, it's away
and like a lot of people knowabout Rikers Island but have not
ever been to Rikers.
Jason (22:29):
So when you decide I'm going to go work there, that's
going to be are you a little bitnervous at first?
And just to go for an interview, you've got to go through what
you just described, which isit's got to be kind of a weird
experience.
No, yes.
Justyna (22:49):
So I was definitely nervous because I did read about
Rikers.
I always kept up with thearticles on the news and
everything that was going on,but I thought it wasn't going to
be as bad as it was because Iwas working directly in the
mental health units.
So a lot of things that youhear about Rikers like the
(23:10):
violence it usually happens ingeneral populations.
You don't really hear muchabout the mental health units
and these are specialized unitsand they said they're a lot
safer People.
The patients there are able toget their medications.
So like I think that's what Itold myself and this is what I
was told that it's.
It's a little different fromlike general population.
Jason (23:34):
What year is this?
Justyna (23:36):
So this is 2023, december 2023.
Jason (23:40):
So not that long ago.
So you're talking at the lastyear, at the end of last year,
less than a year ago, so inDecember 2023.
So not that long ago.
So you're talking at the end oflast year, less than a year ago
, so in December 2023.
So it's still relatively freshin your mind.
So you're going to go there,for did you interview there
before you work there?
Yes, so tell us about yeah tellus about, walk us through your
thought process and that daythat you're going for the
(24:01):
interview.
Justyna (24:03):
So I interviewed first on Zoom and then my second
interview was on the island.
It was a little different thanwhat I expected and we went on
different units and I met thepatients there and it was fine.
And I think my concern was howam I going to feel working there
(24:24):
?
Am I going to feel comfortable?
And when I did interview, I didfeel comfortable.
A lot of the patients came upto me, spoke to me and I didn't
feel uncomfortable.
So I was like, okay, I can dothis.
However, at that time I didn'tknow everything else.
I didn't know how the staff is,how the officers are.
(24:44):
I was just happy that I was.
I felt comfortable being aroundthe patients.
Amber (24:49):
Okay, and so I remember, justina, when you said that you
were considering doing this,because we've known each other
for a little while, and Iremember thinking to myself, oh
wow, I don't know everythingthat you hear about Rikers, all
of those things and I was like,wow, good for you wanting to
change things from the inside.
And so was that your intention.
(25:11):
You thought you would be ableto bring some sort of empathy or
compassion to folks who reallyneeded it in a dark place.
Justyna (25:19):
Yes, that was why I decided to do it.
I really thought I could makechange from the inside and help
those individuals.
Amber (25:28):
And tell us.
So.
You interview, you get the job,you show up, it's day one and
you're ready to help.
What happens?
Justyna (25:38):
So on the day one I felt optimistic.
I met the patients.
I ran into a lot of my oldpatients from the program that I
was working with, people onparole which I was happy to see
them but not happy to see themin that kind of setting.
But I was very surprised howmany people I ran into those
first few days.
(25:58):
It was like orientation.
It's just really when I starteddoing the work, that's when I
really saw what was going onthere so what was going on there
?
so I saw that a lot of peoplewere being locked in and this
was most shocking, even like inmy first few days when I saw
these individuals in their cellswith feces all over, with flies
(26:22):
like that was shocking to mebecause I've never seen people
live like this.
I've seen homeless people.
I ride the New York City trainevery day and I just I've never
seen people like this.
But then, as time went on, Isaw okay, they're being locked
in for another week, and anotherweek I saw all these patterns.
Amber (26:47):
And what were the causes?
Again, just for people who maynot be familiar or understand
mental illness or anything likethat, was this a safety measure?
Was this necessary becausesomebody was acting out in a
violent way and so they'regetting locked in and then that
that's the barrier, don't wehave to do that?
Justyna (27:06):
So no, it wasn't Now.
Of course, when they did a useof force, they locked the
individual in, but those are notthe individuals that I'm
speaking about and that didn'thappen.
Often I found, as I continuedto work there, that it wasn't
valid reasons.
A lot of times it's so hard tosay and I get asked this all the
(27:28):
time but it's so hard to saywhat the exact reasons were,
because I don't really knowbecause this was not documented
anywhere.
So when I came into work andsomebody was locked in and I
would ask the officers, theywere like, oh yeah, he did
something, but we're not surebecause we weren't here
yesterday so it was really hard.
(27:50):
But it was reasons, as I'veseen clients get locked in
because they got loud with anofficer, they raised their voice
, they were like demanding, theywere acting like odd, like
reasons for that.
It wasn't that they were asafety, there was a safety
(28:11):
concern to the unit and what arethe actual rules within the
facility?
Amber (28:17):
I can't imagine that the rules say that somebody should
be locked in a cage for weeks onend, particularly somebody with
mental illness.
Justyna (28:28):
So no you're not supposed to lock anyone in with
a severe mental illness, theindividuals that I worked with.
They had diagnosis ofschizophrenia, schizoaffective
disorder, bipolar depression,and those individuals are not
supposed to ever be locked in.
So those were the rules and,like I stated, the officers knew
(28:51):
that these were the rules andthis is why they never
documented it.
When they sprayed someone andthere was a use of force, they
had to fill out paperwork andI've seen them fill it out.
However, when they were lockingsomeone in and they use the
term deadlock they neverdocumented it and there were
(29:12):
different officers almost everyday, so it was really difficult
to know exactly what happenedwhen we were not there, the
mental health staff.
Jason (29:20):
Yeah.
So, Justina, fast forward andthen come back for a second.
If I fast forward, you've sinceleft Rikers.
You've been in the news severaltimes over the last week
because you have gone publicwith what you've seen and
observed while you were thereand these horrific conditions,
so what you're describing.
(29:41):
It sounds like there's adisconnect between the policies
that they have in place tohandle and what was actually
happening in practice, and Amberhad made a comment a few
minutes ago about you were goingto go in to try to change
things from the inside, which itsounds like probably seemed too
(30:04):
big for you to be able tochange from the inside.
Why do you think this washappening?
Is it because they've got quotebad people running the show who
just want to harm other people?
Are they not trained properly?
Is there not enough staff?
(30:25):
What's going on and what areyou observing?
Justyna (30:28):
So I do think that it's definitely lack of training.
The officers do not understandmental health.
Also, some of the officerswanted me to send certain
patients to general populationand will make statements like oh
, he's not really mentally ill,he's faking it, when this person
was and had a documentedhistory of a severe mental
(30:51):
illness.
It's lack of training, I thinkalso definitely lack of staff.
Sometimes it was only oneofficer on the floor.
There's always supposed to betwo and I think it's easier for
people to just lock someone inand not deal with them and, I
think, support from theircaptains and supervisors.
(31:14):
A lot of the officers work manyshifts, like even three shifts
in a row, because there's lackof staff and they're tired and
overwhelmed.
And I've heard from officersthat, let's say they have an
event that they are supposed togo see their child perform, they
(31:35):
can't say no.
If they're told, like you haveto do overtime, we need you,
they can't say no.
I have something going on andthey voiced this to me because
there were times, you know, wewould speak about these issues.
So it's definitely lack oftraining.
Amber (31:50):
They don't understand mental illness and support and
lack of staff and do you thinksome of the culture of the
facility itself contributes tothe lack of staff?
Because we want to be clear,like it's not a funding issue,
(32:10):
it's just a lack of people whoare willing, because, again, as
we spoke about before, when youeven say Rikers Island, whether
you're a social worker, you're acorrections officer, someone
who might find themselves lockedup there, nobody's saying yay,
(32:32):
hey, let's go do this.
Justyna (32:33):
Does that feel right?
Yes, it does.
And I remember anytime thatthere's a new class that comes
in of correction officers,everybody says it and we see it
that they only last like a fewdays and then they say I don't
want to do this anymore.
So it's definitely the cultureand I think people don't
understand, like I said, say Idon't want to do this anymore.
So it's definitely the cultureand I think people don't
understand.
Like I said, the correctionalofficers don't understand mental
illness.
So they may think, oh, thisperson is an a-hole or something
(32:55):
because this is how they'rereacting.
But it's not because of that,it's because of their mental
health.
And I think the way they lookat these individuals, they come
in already with a bias.
They're like this person is acriminal, they're just trying to
get over.
So then they react to thatindividual in a certain way and
then, of course, the patientwill react back in a certain way
(33:18):
.
So I think they already comewith this bias and I've seen
some officers very few that werereally great and like the way
they spoke to the patients andeven provided them really good,
helpful advice, but that wasvery few and those officers did
not have any problems with thepatients there because they
(33:39):
spoke to the patients likethey're human beings and those
patients did not cause anyproblems for them.
I think the problem also is alot of the officers think that
they can talk to theseindividuals in any kind of way
and the individual the patientis not supposed to react is a
problem, because if you're goingto disrespect someone, like
(34:01):
what do you expect them to do?
They're going to say somethingback.
Amber (34:04):
And do you think that Rikers Island is the right place
for someone with a mentalillness?
Justyna (34:10):
No, no, I feel like, from what I saw in those nine
months, it makes the individualworse.
I've seen patients locked infor weeks, even months, like I
stated smearing feces, cursing,yelling, and what happens is and
this goes back to the lack ofunderstanding of mental health
(34:35):
If they lock someone in for afew days because that person has
made some threats nothingphysical that individual now has
no access to their medicationsbecause the medications come on
the floor and is locked in acell.
So they began to decompensateand then they begin to smear
feces and maybe get aggressive.
So the officers say we can'tlet this individual out because
they're smearing feces.
(34:56):
Yes, they're smearing fecesbecause they're locked in.
And they'll say we can't letthis individual out because
they're aggressive and they'rescreaming and cursing, yes,
because they're locked in.
So there's such a hugedisconnect.
Amber (35:09):
So it becomes a vicious cycle, it seems.
Justyna (35:13):
Yeah.
So they'll use that as anexcuse.
No, we can't let him out.
Now he's flooding his cell andthey say he likes to play with
shit.
They don't say smearing feces,they use that term playing with
shit.
So they'll say, yeah, no, wecan't let him out.
He's playing with shit.
Yes, because he's locked in.
So there's just such a hugedisconnect.
Jason (35:33):
If you, justina, could redesign the process, the system
like, what would it look like?
How would it be different?
Justyna (35:42):
Yeah, so definitely the officers would have more mental
health training to be able torecognize like signs and
symptoms of a mental illness andjust not be able to lock anyone
in.
And, like I said, thoseofficers that I met, who were
great very few, I would say likethree of them like the way they
(36:05):
interacted with the patientslike made such a difference.
I remember there was oneofficer on my unit and he was
the only one which meant thatthe unit was on red status and I
observed how he spoke to thepatients and, like I said, he
gave them really good, valuableadvice.
He spoke to them with respect,he was able to deescalate A lot
(36:26):
of them don't know how todeescalate and there was no
issues on the unit the whole dayand like he was playing chess
with them in the middle of theunit, being the only officer on
the floor because he knew how todeescalate.
Jason (36:42):
So in the environment you're in, it sounds like
de-escalation has a lot to dowith seeing these people as
human beings, regardless of thesituation and the context.
Right that they're human, andtreating somebody like you might
treat a family member andfiguring out how do I get
through to them in this moment,by whatever that means,
(37:04):
approaching them where they areand calming the situation down.
But in a typical prisonsituation you are going to, by
nature of that, you do as I tellyou type of thing, and when you
don't, that's where theescalation comes from and it
just makes things much worse.
(37:25):
That's the training that you'retalking about yes and not to
take things personally.
Justyna (37:31):
I found that the officers a lot of times took
things personally.
So if the patient is cursing,yelling at them, they take it so
personal and they say he's notreally mentally ill.
He knew exactly what he wasdoing, so let's lock him in
because he called me so and sowhen it's no, this person is
(37:54):
mentally ill so like it's 2024now, but you were there in 2023.
Jason (38:02):
there have been calls to shut down Rikers Island.
There's all this mediaattention, even before your
story, and we know better as asociety.
So do you have any theories forwhy we can't get there, for why
we can't get this training andwhat's going on?
Amber (38:24):
I like the way you framed the question, but I also think
is there space to consider thefact that maybe jails and
prisons in general are not theplace for people with mental
illness Because, again, just bythe nature of being in a prison,
you are treated in a certainway.
(38:48):
It is a certain type of culture, it's criminalization of
behaviors that, honestly, can beharmful, like we're not here to
say that sometimes behaviorsare not harmful.
How do we create a space thatkeeps people safe?
Right, and that means everyone,that means the people who are
(39:12):
caring for the people who aresuffering from mental illness.
Does that look like a jail orprison?
Justyna (39:19):
I don't think so.
I think they should not be in ajail or prison.
However, since they are like,these are the suggestions that I
have.
Right, but they can understandmental illness, but no, they
shouldn't be there at all.
I don't think a jail or aprison could ever be able to
care for these people the waythat they should be cared for.
But unfortunately, people witha mental illness, they get sent
(39:45):
to jail, and I remember everypatient that I met on my unit
with a severe mental illness.
When they were arrested for thecrime, all of them were not on
their medications.
I've never met one individualwho told me like yeah, I
committed this crime, I wasarrested, but I was taking my
meds and I had a stable place tolive.
(40:05):
All of them were off theirmedications.
So I don't think that theyshould be sent to jail.
They should really be in apsychiatric hospital where they
can receive the treatment thatthey need.
Amber (40:21):
And so what you mentioned and I meant to ask you then,
but you mentioned that some ofthe individuals that you had
worked with previously you sawthem at Rikers Was that related
to technical violations?
Had they committed new crimes?
Do you even know Like?
Why do you think that washappening?
(40:42):
People?
Justyna (40:43):
on parole no longer get incarcerated for technical
violations in New York, which isgreat.
But the people that I saw comeback, it was because a lot of
times they were not on theirmedication, they did not have
stable housing and another crimewas committed, but it was
because of all those thingshappening.
(41:03):
A lot of them were homeless,off their medications.
Using drugs didn't have thesupports that they needed in the
community to be successful.
Amber (41:14):
I understand.
That's very interesting,because that's some of the
things that most re-entryprofessionals and social
scientists and all of theresearch tells us that the way
to be successful in reentry isto have the support that you
need.
But I don't understand whypeople think this is rocket
(41:34):
science.
It's not surprising that if youthink about your own life right
, if you are struggling to finda place to lay your head, you
might find yourself in desperatesituations where you act like
you wouldn't normally act.
If you are living under anoppressive situation where
(41:54):
people may act out against youbecause they believe something
about you that may not be whoyou are, you may act accordingly
.
Does that, does that feel likea clear characterization?
Justyna (42:07):
Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened to those
individuals.
Jason (42:13):
Yeah, I would say, though , Amber.
The only spin I would put onthat, though, is that there are
other.
There are people who have beenin the same situation as someone
, who does end up acting out,who don't act out, and then they
say look, how come?
How come I was able to do it,but they aren't.
So I think that's you gotthere's everybody.
Everybody reacts differently,and nobody has the exact same
(42:35):
situation as anybody else, so wedo have to be careful with
those, and I think, justina,it's interesting so you were
there for nine months was yourbreaking point?
What happened?
Justyna (42:51):
I mean I don't know.
I don't know if it was onemoment it was just seeing what
is going on and me not beingable to help.
I mean, there's a few instanceswhere I was just like I need to
get out of this.
This is just not fair.
I've made progress withpatients and then over the
weekend something happened andnow the person's back locked in
(43:13):
and I have to start from thebeginning.
So there were a lot of momentslike that.
Amber (43:18):
And who determines how people get unlocked, like so, if
they're deadlocked, who says,okay, now we can let the guy out
or person out.
Justyna (43:29):
Yeah, sorry.
So the officers do so a lot oftimes we would coordinate with
the officers.
There were a few officers veryfew on our, on my unit who we
knew allow everyone to be lockedout.
So a lot of times we had towait for those officers to come
in.
We knew their schedules, so wewould say, okay, tomorrow,
(43:52):
so-and-so is back to work, andthen let's talk to them tomorrow
, because we know they let theguys out and we'll advocate.
However, the next day maybe oneof the officers was out A lot
of times because of the shortageof officers, they were put in
another unit.
So then we would have to waittill like the next day.
(44:14):
Sometimes they were on vacation.
So we had to like reallystrategize because we knew, yeah
, this person is never lettingthem out, so let's not even ask.
But so, and so is coming later,let's ask them.
And the patients even knew thatI had a lot of guys on my unit
that were like higherfunctioning and they would also
(44:34):
complain and say you see, weneed to get this person out.
Do you see how they're likeliving?
This is horrible.
So, and so is coming later,let's ask them.
Amber (44:43):
Like the patients were very involved in this as well,
and so these weren't being basedon like professional decisions
but like personal style ofwhatever it was that, however
the particular correctionsofficer operated.
Some people were more open tounlocking than others, when
(45:04):
really it seems like a betterway to do that would be upon
recommendation of a treatmentprovider.
Justyna (45:11):
Yes, and mental health never suggested for anyone to be
locked in and we were told byour director supervisors that we
can never, ever even make thatsuggestion.
That's not something we believein, so we would never suggest
for someone to be locked in.
Um, there were some mentalhealth staff that did, but
(45:33):
overall this is what we weretold and then we will try to
talk to the officers to allowthe individual out.
And it was really hard becausea lot of times we had to go to
the patient and say please don'tscream, for today Don't bang so
and so is coming tomorrow We'llask them, but, like for one day
, can you just not bang orscream.
(45:54):
And that was really difficultbecause already that person was
decompensated.
Amber (45:59):
So they didn't have the capability, exactly, yeah.
Justyna (46:02):
And a lot of times what would happen is we would send
our patients to Bellevue.
Bellevue has a prison wardwhere they take our patients, so
when somebody was locked in thecell for weeks and
decompensated, we would sendthem to Bellevue.
We would do a referral.
A lot of times Bellevue wouldsend the individual back because
that person, in order to beadmitted to Bellevue, would have
(46:25):
to be admitted involuntarily,and there's a specific criteria
they have to meet be a danger tothemselves or someone else.
A lot of the patientsdecompensated but were not a
danger to somebody else andtherefore Bellevue was not able
to admit them.
So then they would go back anda lot of the patients had have
(46:47):
had a 7 30 order, which meansthey were unfit to proceed with
their court proceedings.
So they were waiting to go toomh and we were hoping okay,
this person is high on the list,hopefully they'll go to omh any
day now, because we've sentthem to bellevue but bellevue
didn't accept them.
They're still locked, locked in.
(47:08):
There's nothing else we can do,so just to be clear Rikers is a
jail.
Amber (47:14):
It is a lot of people there are pre-trial.
Is that correct?
Yes, so you know we're talkingabout people who are awaiting
trial and that is being held upbecause they're being put in a
situation that is causing themto decompensate.
Justyna (47:30):
So it's not being held up because of that.
The wait list to OMH is long.
It's about four months.
Amber (47:38):
And what is OMH?
For those who don't know.
Justyna (47:41):
Okay, office of Mental Health.
So they either are sent toKirby Forensic, psychiatric or
Mid-Hudson, and I've seen manyof my patients come back from
those hospitals and they'recompletely different people
because they're not locked in,they have access to their
medications, they attend groups,they receive treatment, and
(48:01):
it's people that I can't evenrecognize them when they come
back.
Jason (48:05):
Wow, that's crazy.
And so then you, you leave,your, you make the difficult
decision to to leave the job.
And then you decided how longdid it take you to decide to go
public with the story?
Justyna (48:22):
So I already knew I was going to do this before I left.
Like I had this plan, like thatwas one of the reasons that I
left, because I did say tomyself I can do more about this
from the outside.
So that was like a reason toleave.
I could never do this while Iwas still working there because
of retaliation and backlash.
(48:43):
So I already had that plan.
I've already spoken to peopleand then I received another job
so I was able to resign.
So right after my last day,like I started working on this.
Jason (48:56):
Did you let your new employer know you were going to
be going public?
Okay, and then, so, then youdid.
So what was that like?
Were you nervous and what wereyou?
What was happening?
Justyna (49:10):
like Were you nervous and what were you?
What was happening?
I was.
I was nervous, but I gotconnected to lawyers and who
have all of their clients onRikers Island, so they knew
exactly.
You know what was going on.
They did not know that this wasgoing on in the mental health
units.
They were not surprised justbecause of how Rikers is, but
they did not know all thespecifics and they even said
(49:30):
that they would always advocatefor their clients to go to the
mental health units because theybelieve that these units were
safe.
Jason (49:38):
Yeah, that's what you were told before you took your
job, right?
Justyna (49:41):
Yes, so they were like shocked but not surprised,
because it's Rikers and theywere very supportive.
They've been with me every stepof the way.
They're the ones that connectedme to the daily news, to New
York One News.
They helped me write mytestimony when I testified
before the board of correction.
Yeah, they were, they were withme through every step, when I
(50:03):
was doing the interview.
They were with me also.
So I felt really supported andthat helped so much because I
don't know if I could be able todo this on my own.
I don't know what.
I didn't even know what to do,like where to go, who to talk to
.
They deal with these cases,they have these contacts and
they were able to connect me.
Jason (50:23):
So would you describe the last week?
What has your, what's your lifebeen like and what has the
response been?
Justyna (50:29):
Yeah, so it's been a crazy week for sure.
The response has been verypositive.
So many people have reached outto me or so happy that I came
forward.
Like I received so much supportand love and it's been great.
Thank God I'm not there becausein Rikers because, like I said,
I can't imagine doing thiswhile I was there, like I don't,
(50:52):
I would never do it, like Iwouldn't be safe doing it I did
hear like a lot of talk about mein the jail, because I do have
a friend that still, like, worksthere.
I have actually two friendsthat still work there, so
they've told me like what isbeing said.
So I'm just grateful that I'mnot there.
But, yeah, I received a lot ofsupport from a lot of people.
Amber (51:15):
And do you anticipate there as you mentioned, you
testified in front of the Boardof Corrections there is talk of
an investigation that is goingon.
Justyna (51:32):
Are you hopeful that, in speaking out that there will
be, transparency and also change, yes, so I'm happy that they're
willing to do an investigation,and this is why I want to
continue speaking out about this, because I don't want this
story to die down and then, youknow, the officers go back to
doing what that is quo.
Yes, so I'm going to continuespeaking out about this.
(51:53):
I'm going to be meeting withdifferent people to address this
and continue to talk about itso that an investigation is done
.
Amber (52:01):
And I.
What is it that drives you sowhen you you know the day you're
leaving?
You have had, you've met, a lotof these people who are
incarcerated and in the mentalhealth unit there.
What were your feelings about?
Like leaving them behind?
Justyna (52:18):
I was so sad and it was so hard to make the decision to
resign because I did feelguilty.
I was like I'm just giving up.
There's not many people therethat really want to help and I
just felt such guilt, I'm justgiving up.
But that's why I promisedmyself, even if I leave, I'm
gonna do something about this.
And just because I'm leavingthere does not mean that I'm not
(52:40):
still trying to help thoseindividuals that are there.
It's just I'm doing it in adifferent way, in a way that's
more effective.
Yeah, it seems like you're goingto have a much larger impact
than you were able to have fromthe inside Right, and that's
what I thought about when I madethat decision.
(53:00):
There's just such a littlechange that I can make on the
inside, but I can make a biggerchange being on the outside and
that's what drove my decision toresign.
And I remember my last day, thepatients from my two units.
They made me like beautifulcards that they worked on in
their art group for a long time,like they wrote really nice
(53:21):
things, they colored it.
It was so nice and I was like,yeah, this is exactly why I'm
doing this to help thoseindividuals.
Amber (53:29):
And I think that I do have to say what you're doing is
amazing and we're very proud tohave you on the board of
Restorative Action Alliance andall of the work that you have
done and are continuing to do.
Absolutely, what do you thinklike your trajectory looks like?
I know that you've you'reworking on your PhD.
(53:50):
I believe you're doing somethings around voting rights for
people who are formerlyincarcerated.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Justyna (53:59):
Yes.
So I'm really interested invoting rights for justice.
Impacted individuals, impactedindividuals.
And this goes back to the jobwhere I was working with people
on parole.
I found out that most of themdid not know that they can even
vote in New York, and in NewYork, once you're released from
incarceration, your votingrights are restored right away.
And I also noticed that a lotof my coworkers working with
(54:24):
that specific population didn'tknow either.
And for me, I think it's soimportant to be able to vote,
because that's how you get yourvoice back, especially when
you're reintegrating back intothe community, into the society.
So about a few weeks ago, I diddo a voting event.
I went back to my old job andthey allowed me to register the
(54:46):
clients that are coming into theprogram.
A lot of them come in person,they do group, they do
individual sessions and I wasable to register them.
And Reform Alliance, which Igot involved with over the
summer, helped me and sponsoredthat event, and it was great
because I've met individualsthat never voted in their life.
(55:07):
For example, one client inparticular.
He was incarcerated for 21years and before he was
incarcerated he never voted, andthis was the first time that he
was able to vote and he wasjust so excited and I was so
happy to be able to like sharethat moment with him and
register him.
Amber (55:26):
That's amazing, and I think that in our, in my travels
, in my experience, I do meet alot of people who either a think
that it's not available to thembecause that messaging is out
there, because it's different indifferent areas, and or say,
why should I vote?
Because nobody cares about meand my voice won't be heard.
(55:47):
What is your sort of responseto that?
Justyna (55:51):
Yes, I try to educate them that, no, your voice is can
be heard.
And I think also because theseindividuals have been
incarcerated and even beforethey were incarcerated they felt
like their voice doesn't matterbecause of their personal
experiences just with the systemwith mass incarceration.
They feel like it doesn'tbecause of their personal
experiences just with the systemwith mass incarceration.
They feel like it doesn't.
(56:11):
Their voice is not heard, and Itotally understand where
they're coming from.
But I try to educate them on,like, the importance of voting
and that their vote does matter,especially in like local
elections in the communitiesthat they live in, like they can
make a difference.
And if everybody thinks that myvoice doesn't matter, then like
nobody would vote, it wouldvote and then the elections
(56:33):
would be different.
So I just try to educate themand tell them how important it
is that before recently peopleon parole were not able to vote
and because of massincarceration, most people that
are incarcerated a large numberare people of color where one
time in history they were notable to vote either.
So it's it's very important.
Amber (56:55):
Yeah, thank you so much.
That's really exciting and,again, I think the combination
of all the things that you'redoing will really make a big
difference for a lot of people.
Will really make a bigdifference for a lot of people.
So if you were speaking tosomeone who was at the very
beginning of a journey that issimilar to yours and you had one
(57:15):
piece of advice for them in 30seconds, what would that be?
Justyna (57:21):
So I think the advice I would give them is not to give
up and that sometimes you maythink like you can't make a
change, but you really can.
You can.
You just have to believe inyourself and never give up.
There were times where I feltlike why am I doing this?
Maybe I should just put Rikersbehind me, like it was
traumatizing.
But then I always remember likewhat I'm doing this for and who
(57:45):
I'm doing this for remember,like what I'm doing this for and
who I'm doing this for Love.
Jason (57:51):
That, jason.
Any last thoughts?
Sure, I think.
Justina thanks for coming on,and as I listened to your story,
I knew a little bit hearingmore of it today.
I know it's very difficult.
It's very easy for somebody tosay, oh yeah, I would just leave
that job or I would just walkaway.
The idea that you actually hadthe courage to both leave the
(58:15):
job that you had and then toactually do something, to take a
stand, to figure out how tomobilize resources around you
and to get the word out in a waythat's effective and productive
, that's going to see realchange, I think it's something
that you should be really proudof.
I'm glad to know you and I'mglad that we're working with you
(58:37):
, and thank you for being on thepodcast today.
Justyna (58:41):
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
This is my first podcasttalking about this, so that's
really exciting, and Idefinitely wanted to do it with
you guys.
Jason (58:51):
Appreciate it Won't be the last.
Justyna (58:52):
Yeah, definitely.
There'll be more talks and moreevents that I will be joining
that I'm really excited about.
To like continue spreading thisinformation, thank you so much,
Justina.
Amber (59:04):
Thank you.
Jason (59:06):
Until next time, Amber.
Amber (59:07):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (59:13):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
AmplifiedVoicesshow you.
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