Kevin: Money + Kindness Makes All the Difference - Season 5 Episode 9

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What happens when we replace shame and barriers for people in reentry with resources? Kevin Scott of Community Spring shares his story and work with direct cash assistance for justice-impacted people as part of this insightful conversation with Amplified Voices co-hosts, Jason and Amber.

Kevin's story begins in the chaos of childhood trauma – a family member struggling with addiction, a kidnapping, and his own early descent into substance use. Despite multiple attempts at recovery, Kevin eventually found himself serving a four-year prison sentence in Florida's Department of Corrections, where the heat was unbearable and hope seemed impossible.

Yet even amongst the harsh and dehumanizing prison environment, Kevin discovered unexpected paths to healing. He became responsible for the prison band room, tapping into his passion for music. More profoundly, he discovered meditation, which forced him to confront his lifelong pattern of seeking escape and "oblivion" rather than facing reality. This practice became the foundation for his lasting recovery and transformed his understanding of himself.

Upon release, Kevin faced the brutal realities of reentry – sleeping in a homeless shelter parking lot, struggling with probation fees, and battling the constant threat of reincarceration for inability to pay. The system that claimed to rehabilitate had no interest in his actual success. 

Despite these barriers, Kevin found stability and eventually connected with Community Spring, where he and others helped create Just Income – a groundbreaking program providing $800 monthly to formerly incarcerated people with no strings attached.

The results have been extraordinary: a 31% reduction in recidivism, nearly halving money-related probation violations, and significantly improved mental health and employment outcomes. As Director of Guaranteed Income, Kevin has overseen the distribution of over $1 million to 157 recipients, proving that "money and kindness" outperform surveillance and control.

Beyond the numbers lies a profound truth captured by one participant: "Hope goes a long way for people who are accustomed to hopelessness." Kevin's work demonstrates that viewing formerly incarcerated people through a lens of humanity rather than criminality creates better outcomes for individuals and communities alike.

Featured in an award-winning documentary and major news outlets, Community Spring is not only transforming lives in Gainesville—it’s becoming a replicable model for communities across the country.

More About Kevin Scott: 

A formerly incarcerated advocate, Kevin Scott has been instrumental in advancing policies that remove economic barriers for justice-impacted people. His work has helped end unpaid prison labor contracts, pass Florida’s first Fair Chance Hiring ordinance, eliminate fines and fees, and secure free phone calls for incarcerated individuals and their families.

Kevin’s efforts as Director of Guaranteed Income at Community Spring have received national recognition for their bold, evidence-based approach to reentry and economic justice. 

Outside of work, Kevin is a devoted Zen meditation practitioner, a soccer fan, and the proud father of one brilliant daughter and two idiot cats.

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Episode Transcript

Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences

(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.

Jason (00:34):
Hello, welcome to another episode of Amplified Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.

Amber (00:41):
Good morning Jason.

Jason (00:43):
Amber.
Today we have with us KevinScott.
Hello, kevin.

Kevin (00:49):
Hello, good morning.
Thanks for having me on.

Jason (00:52):
It's great to have you on , Kevin.
Tell us a little bit about yourlife before the criminal legal
system and what brought you intoit.

Kevin (01:00):
Okay, holy shit, here we go.
I cuss a lot, by the way, Ishould probably be-.

Amber (01:03):
That's okay, we're raw here on Amplified Voices.

Kevin (01:05):
Okay, thanks, fucking God .
Okay, here we go.
I'm in Florida.
I live in Gainesville, florida.

Jason (01:10):
Where is that relative to Orlando or Miami?
We are North.

Kevin (01:13):
Central Florida, north of Orlando, right in the middle of
the state.
They call it the swamp.
The University of Florida ishere.
Gainesville, it's AlachuaCounty.
Gainesville, Florida, Did yougrow?

Jason (01:23):
up there.

Kevin (01:24):
No, I was born in DC, but my family moved to Florida when
I was like too young toremember.
Basically, Gainesville isdefinitely where I consider to
be my home.

Amber (01:33):
So I do have to say I will forgive you because we are
an FSU family.

Kevin (01:40):
Well, prepare for some good news then.
Next week, my daughter and Iwill be going to FSU for
orientation, because she isabout to start FSU.

Amber (01:49):
Okay, all right, we're friends again.

Kevin (01:51):
So I grew up in Florida.
Definitely a challengingchildhood Addiction is a huge
part of my story, a huge part ofmy family's story as well.
My mom, especially when I waslittle, story as well.
My mom, especially when I waslittle, was an active addiction
and my older brother, who'sthree years older than I,

(02:11):
definitely had a lot of traumabased on my mom's addiction.
So ended up meeting with everykind of abuse there was physical
, mental, emotional, sexual,psychological.
I mean this is pretty standardfor someone who's experiencing
addiction.
It was pretty bad for a whilethere.
So my mom was in that cycle atthe time.
My dad was relatively morestable, had a job, there was

(02:37):
drinking and things around, buthe was definitely at least
functional.

Jason (02:41):
Were they together or were you in separate homes?

Kevin (02:44):
Separate homes.
I don't have any memory of themever being together.
I think shortly after we movedto Florida they ended up
splitting up, which was acatalyst for my mom's addictions
kicking into gear there.

Jason (02:54):
So you're going from stability to instability to
stability to instability.

Kevin (02:59):
Yeah, and it was pretty bad, yeah.
So at some point my mom'saddiction had gotten so bad that
she was denied parental rights.
They were like you're not sound, you're not safe to be around
your my brother and I, and shebasically just ambushed us as we
were coming home from a grocerystore and kidnapped me and my

(03:30):
brother.
She fled.
We went to Miami for a while,we went to Puerto Rico, we went
to Jamaica.
It's like a fucking movie.
It was crazy.
How old were you?
I must've been like four orsomething.
I mean, I was little, like alittle guy.
The event was sudden.
It was violent, it was verybloody, it was loud, it was
terrifying.
Yeah, it was intense.

(03:50):
She was being abused by herboyfriend, so we witnessed all
these terrible things and shehad consequences from her
choices there as well, Ended upreally getting it together later
in life.
We were very close before herfinal years.
We were very close before herfinal years.
We were like extremely closeactually, and I have been less
close with my dad's side of thefamily.
Oddly enough, I kind of relatedmore with my mom.

(04:12):
We were closer than I was withmy dad.
Probably most kids who grew upin environments like that
there's some element of oh myGod, I will never do any of
these things.
Of course, look what I havewitnessed.
How could anyone possibly youknow what I mean Like I'll never
use these drugs?
And then, of course, as specialas I would like to consider
myself to be, I am prettytextbook in the sense that by

(04:33):
the time I got into like middleschool, I already started to
experiment with substances, andit didn't take long before
whatever is inside of me that ispredisposed eager for
substances it was like oh my God, like this is fantastic.
And so I had consequences fromusing.
By the time I was in 10th grade, I got sent to this juvie rehab
place.

(04:54):
It didn't take long for thingsto get sideways and you said you
had a sibling was.

Jason (04:59):
Is that a brother or sister?

Kevin (05:00):
Yeah, so I have an older brother who's three years older
than me.
I had a younger brother, but hepassed away when he was 14.
Yeah, when I was 23, he was 14.
He passed away.
My older brother seemed to havedodged all of the bullets of
addiction and all of thecompounding cascading joys that
come from active addiction.

(05:21):
I got blessed.

Amber (05:22):
So, kevin, first of all, thank you for sharing all of
that.
I think one of the things thatwe see when we chat with people
is the way that the storiesunfold feels very nonchalant.
It's like, oh well, you know Iwas kidnapped and this thing
happened.
So I just want to acknowledgethat was a lot of things Right

(05:46):
and a lot of trauma that youjust described.
So I want to acknowledge it andsay that I'm sorry that that's
something that you experienced.
And then one thing that juststruck me when you just spoke
about your brother is that hedodged the bullet and your
reaction was different.

(06:06):
I think this is somethingreally important for people to
hear, right, because people saysomething bad happened to me and
I didn't do X, y, z, whatever,I didn't get caught up in the
system, I didn't react in thatway, and it really shows the raw
humanity of what we can look atlike what are interventions.
And so my question to you isalong the way, when you were in

(06:30):
school or you were interactingwith other sorts of people in
community, were there anyopportunities for intervention?
Did people notice what washappening?

Kevin (06:43):
for intervention.
Did people notice what washappening?
Yeah, in ninth and 10th grade,especially for me, is when it
started to become a little moreapparent that I was using or
something was going on.
It was like March of my 10thgrade year the school contacted
my parents separately and waslike your son has missed more
days than he's been to schoolthis year.
And they were like what thefuck?

(07:04):
They did not know.
I would leave the house in themorning and I was just going and
partying and doing whatever.
It became obvious that somethingwas going on with me and
shortly thereafter I ended up inlike that juvie rehab place and
that was kind of my firstexposure in terms of
interventions.
It wasn't 12 steps.
They had somehow compressed itto seven to make it more
digestible for our teen minds orsomething like that, but it was

(07:26):
seven steps I was in there foron some level for a year and a
half and it was full time,inpatient, and then by degrees
over time it's like, okay, youwill go spend the night at your
house and then eventually youcan now go back to high school.
You sort of regained freedomsin the world and that was really
my first exposure torecovery-based stuff and I was

(07:46):
mandated as part of that to goto like X number of AA meetings
or NA meetings.
This was in Sarasota and I was15 years old and go into an AA
meeting in Sarasota, florida,where everyone was decades older
than me and it was like I lostmy wife, I lost my car, I lost
my house and I was like I don'trelate to any of that, I'm just

(08:09):
a kid, you know what I mean.
And so I felt like a littlelike I didn't belong there or
something.
But also there was some part ofme that was like oh, I very
much do belong here.
There's something familiar inwhat these people are sharing
about how they interact withsubstances, about what it does
to them mentally kind of whythey have chosen to do
substances.

(08:29):
And you know I can see myselfin a lot of those stories.
That was the main interventionfor decades after in and out of
recovery spaces until eventually, ironically, it was like oh man
, I lost my car, I lost my wife,lost my house, like I ended up
being exactly like what thosepeople were talking about when I
was a teen, you know.

Amber (08:49):
Yeah, thank you for sharing.
I think that for me, when I amthinking about that, it Tells us
that when we talk aboutinterventions, right, it has to
be Culturally appropriate, ithas to be age appropriate, all
of those things.
So thank you so much forsharing that.

Jason (09:12):
Right and Amber, I'm also thinking about the fact that I
mean what your whole family wasexperiencing and then eventually
you know just the trauma thatyour family went through, and
I'm just thinking of your olderbrother right now also lost a
younger brother who saw all thesame stuff and then had to see

(09:33):
what you were going through.
I wonder what his experiencewas like.
You know, through all of thatMust have been tough.

Kevin (09:41):
Yeah, during that period when I was in the, it was called
the life program, which stoodfor life is for everyone.
In hindsight it was reallytraumatic, honestly.
It was like support groups forpeople who went through it.
It was like really intense.
It was not cool but yeah, atthe time for sure I think you're
right, jason Like I felt a lotof shame and like, oh my God, I
am like absolutely the blacksheep of this family.

(10:03):
My mom at that point had gottenclean, so she was in a better
space.
My younger brother at the timewas like five or six, uh, and my
older brother, just you know,again like did not have any of
the same reactions orexperiences of addiction.
So, just you know, sort of likeeye rolling, like, oh my god,
like my this brother, thisyounger brother of mine, is a

(10:24):
mess.
So I felt like profoundly likea burden, like shame, guilt,
like an outcast in my family,really, that the person I
identified most within my familywas my mom.
I think, just based on our sortof shared experience and we had
like similar dispositions andlike interests, like I I don't
know what I look like.
I I feel like I look like some,like retired soccer hooligan or

(10:45):
something but like I imaginelike a super, like soft, sweet
guy, like I'm like I cry all thetime and I'm like a really
sensitive guy and my mom waslike kind of the same way, like
she had like a really just likekind heart, so we had like a lot
of resonance with each other.
So outside of her, for the restof my family I didn't really
like get along great withanybody.

(11:07):
I always felt like I was alittle like less than or outcast
, and that carried through intomy adult life, like we just had
no relationship outside of mymom and that was pretty much it.

Jason (11:17):
So you go through your teen years and then your early
adult years and you're trying toget it.
It sounds like you went throughperiods of trying to control
this addiction and then havingit control you, and you also
alluded to the fact that at somepoint you got married and you

(11:37):
were doing okay, like what'shappening.

Kevin (11:41):
Yeah, I've been married a few times.
Man, okay, yeah, yes, indeed,yeah.
So after high school I waspretty good at playing music
also.
So I was.
I got really into the musicscene.
So I was in like punk bands andhardcore bands and like that
was like a huge part of my life.
That was why I moved toGainesville.
Gainesville had a huge musicscene at the time.
I had, you know, friends.

(12:02):
I was able to plug in and endedup doing like touring, playing
drums or working for other bands, so that was a huge part of my
life.
And then also, like you know, Ireally wanted to stabilize and
so I would kind of go in and outof like these periods of
sobriety, not using and then I'dlike relapse.
It was very textbook, you know,like in and out, in and out.

(12:23):
In my heart of hearts.
I always wanted to be clean.
I always felt like I was meantto be clean.
The people that I revered mostwere oftentimes they were
musicians, but there was peoplethat were in straight edge
hardcore bands, people that weretalking about the value of a
clear mind and having apurposeful life and I always

(12:43):
felt like so, like, yeah, likethat that sounds right to me and
just like vexed with myselfbecause I couldn't get there and
, like you know, sort of likethis compound and like, oh fuck,
I can't do it, I can't do it,these guys are doing it, this
lady's doing it, why can't I doit?
Like that's who I wanted to be.
And so, yeah, I went in and outof these like periods of
stability.
I, yeah, I got married a coupleof times and then, honestly, the

(13:06):
thing that really kept comingback up was my addiction.
There were times where, likeyou know, I was married, I had a
daughter and I ended uprelapsing, like a couple of
years after she was born andthings just like.
Really, I had like a surgery onmy back and I had been clean at
the time and they were like,well, here's, you're going to
need some like pain managementmedication, and I had done

(13:28):
everything other than pills atthat point, so that was not
really on my radar, but then,like, almost like immediately
reignited my addiction and allthese cascading things happen
which ended up leading to theend of my marriage.
At the time I, you know,relapsing, ended up like having
legal consequences and, like allthese things, ended up going to
prison.
So, yeah, I had these likeattempts at stability and I just

(13:51):
could not make it stick, youknow.

Jason (13:53):
I just want to pause there for a second.
I want to underline andunderscore you were in a period
of high stress.
For anybody when you're, youhave a young family, right.
I mean that's very, verystressful to begin with.
There were a lot of forcesworking against you at that
point that you need to kind ofbe forgiving to a little bit.

Kevin (14:14):
Yeah, I mean it was kind of the perfect storm for
somebody that has, like, apropensity for addiction.
It was like, oh, what a greatsetup, you know.
It was like there was highstress, here's drugs here's.
You know, it's like somebodylike readily handing out drugs
and that just like really kickedin all the pre-existing stuff
and, like you know, typicallywhen somebody relapses it tends

(14:38):
to be worse than the last timethey use, and that has
definitely been true in myhistory as well.
Like every time it was like alittle worse than the last time
and it was like God, it happenedso fast too.
I've been clean for over 12 anda half years now, I should say,
so this has been yeah, so thisis like quite a ways in the rear
view, at least from that time.
But yeah, it didn't take long.

(14:58):
I ended up.
You know I was like stealingstuff and just putting myself in
like awful and you know likeaddiction shows up in many, many
ways, so it didn't take longfor the consequences to arrive.

Amber (15:10):
So tell us a little bit about, like, what you mean by
consequences.
Unpack that a little bit.

Kevin (15:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like, as my addiction, youknow, had sort of post-surgery,
the drugs were reintroduced it,behaviorally, things started
getting even more sideways and Ithink, like I knew I needed
help, I was too ashamed toacknowledge that I needed help.
It was really hard for me tosay it out loud At that time.
I had a child.
I didn't have a ton of support.

(15:37):
I had moved back to Sarasota atthe time.
That's where my wife and wewere living there.
During this period I felt prettyisolated.
I just didn't know what to dowith it.
I didn't know how to ask forhelp or acknowledge, like what
was happening, to say it outloud to anybody else.
And so I think one of myfriends said it really well.
He's like, more than like drugs, I think I'm like addicted to
self-destruction, like that's.

(15:58):
I am addicted to oblivion, likethat's what I'm seeking on some
level.
And so I ended up yeah, I waslike stealing stuff and putting
myself in all these like crazysituations and I ended up
getting incarcerated.
I'd never been arrested beforein my entire life.
Somehow, I had like never hadthat, never like, never been in
handcuffs, never been in jail,and it was a jarring experience,

(16:21):
obviously.

Jason (16:23):
Can I add something where you said addicted to oblivion,
really addicted to that?
It sounds to me that you werein extreme distress.
You didn't know how tophysically ask for help, but you
wanted out and the only way todo that was to completely blow
up your life.
It's somehow in your brainblowing up your life is going to

(16:47):
get you help.

Kevin (16:49):
Yeah, that's it.
It was like, as opposed tofinding like a softer, more
reasonable way to get help, I'mjust going to eat a fucking
grenade.

Jason (16:58):
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Kevin (16:59):
It was like on some somewhere in my brain.
It was like I just need forevery, I just need the
apocalypse, as opposed to youknow some sort of reasonable
help.
Yeah, so that I ended up.
I ended up getting arrested.
I was out for like two yearswaiting for things to be
resolved.
I thought it was going to maybego away and then eventually I
ended up getting sent to prisonand I was in there for I was

(17:21):
sentenced for four years.
And then there's the wholestory of what happened inside.
But, yeah, I ended up going tothe Florida.

Amber (17:31):
Department of Corrections with a four-year sentence.
Tell us a little bit about thesounds, feels, all of those
things of what happened when, sopeople can sort of understand
what is the experience offinding yourself in the world
one moment and then gettingsentenced and then finding
yourself behind the walls.

Kevin (17:51):
Yeah yeah, I did not think I was going to go to
prison.
I really thought I was going toleave the courtroom.
I felt quite confident I wasgoing to and it turned out like
absolutely not.
They were like guilty, led away.
At that moment, the judge letme hug my family, which was, I
think, unusual, and that was it.
I mean, like you're immediatelybodily taken away in that

(18:12):
moment, um, unbeknownst to me, Iwasn't going to come out of
there for you know, years tocome.
At that point, but, uh yeah,led away.
I was in the county jail for, Ithink, about three months,
something like that sort ofwaiting for the sentencing and
the transport before I was sentto Florida prison.
They put you in a van with abunch of other guys.

(18:35):
You're shackled up together andI ended up going to Orlando.
There's a central receivingfacility.
It's like a processing, it'slike a slaughterhouse.
Basically it's like aprocessing for prisons.
So I went there.
It was freezing cold.
I got there it was February andI think by the time we arrived
to the place in Orlando it waslike probably four or five in

(18:55):
the morning, but you know,you're kind of up all night,
traumatized.
They stripped us naked.
It was freezing cold out there.
Florida does get cold, by theway.
We're like, we're naked, justnaked.
It was freezing cold out there.
Florida does get cold, by theway.
We're like, we're naked.
You know like, spread themcough.
You know, humiliating all thethings.
They shave your head.
It puts you in a shower.

(19:15):
That's six zillion degrees andyou know they give you clothes
and it's really dehumanizingthing and it's done in.
You had better maintain silenceor somebody is going to come
stomp you.
You know what I mean.
It's like it's super violentright off the bat.
They're setting the tone.
I went through that and actuallyI was.
They handed out food trays andyou know, at the county jail I
had been starving and when Iopened up the tray I thought it

(19:35):
was a trick because it seemed tome like there was so much food
on the tray.
There wasn't, but that's notjust to speak to how scant the
portions were in the county jail.
I actually was like wow, whatan abundance of food on this
prison tray, because I was sodamn hungry.
So yeah, I was there in Orlando.
I would say like maybe like amonth, and then they sort of
determine where you're going togo, like what your permanent

(19:57):
prison is going to be.
One morning they say, scott,pack your shit.
You're put on a bus with abunch of other guys and they
make stops at different prisonsand they basically pull out a
list like you, you, you, you,you get off at this one and you
go to another prison, you, you,you, and so that's how it went.
I ended up going to a prisonthat's in central Florida, south
of here, but in the middle ofthe state, in the Hardy County

(20:26):
area.
Basically, the rest of myincarceration was there.
It was not at all what Ithought it was going to be like.
It's not like the movies, it'snot like what you would see on
TV.
It was quite the experience.
I ended up meeting some of themost amazing people I've ever
met in my entire life.
Some of the most like creative,intelligent, warm,

(20:46):
compassionate uh, just like Imean amazingly talented people
that it's a disservice for thesefolks to be kept in the cage.
Some of like the greatestpeople I've ever met were there,
um, because I was a musician.
Actually, the first night I gotthere there was like this, like
sort of um, one wing of thisone dorm where, like, all of the

(21:07):
new people came through it'slike the orientation wing and I
just the way that my cell was um, there's no air conditioning in
florida prison, by the way,which you can imagine.
It gets super, super hot attimes, but there's just like
basically open windows and I Iwas like, do I hear music?
Like I thought I heard like liveinstruments, like somewhere
like in the distance, and Iasked somebody and they're like,

(21:28):
oh yeah, like on the rec yard,there's like a band room out
there and I was like oh my god,like oh my god, how do I get
there?
Like how can I get there?
And so, like the first chance Igot to go onto the rec yard, I
went up to the, the officer whoran it, and I was like I've been
in bands, like I would.
If there's any way for me toplug in here, I think, holy shit
, like this would be amazing.
Uh, he was actually the guy whohas been doing it is about to

(21:51):
leave.
He's like I'll make you the newguy.
So, like that's what I did forquite a while.
My job on the at the prison wasI was a rec orderly, so I
worked on the rec yard, but Iran the band room and Amber.

Jason (22:04):
This is the first time we had somebody who was a musician
on the inside.

Kevin (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, this is great .

Amber (22:12):
So, just so you know, you're talking to several
musicians as well, so we'rereally excited to hear about
this.

Jason (22:20):
When the two of you were talking sports, I checked out,
but when we get into the musicstuff, you wake me up.
But no, that's before we getinto some of the good stuff,
which is what is exciting.
You've described being in therebecause of the drugs and which
led to behaviors that got youincarcerated.
Now, all of a sudden, you findyourself in the prison situation

(22:48):
, and let's see, how do I saythis?

Amber (22:49):
so there were no drugs in prison, right, that was never.

Kevin (22:51):
Everybody laughs very loudly, all my god my god,
there's so many, so many drugsand you're locked in with them.
There's no, there's no gettingaway from them.
Yeah, you're literally lockedin with all the drugs.

Amber (23:04):
And obviously it was definitely the family members
that brought them in Is thatright?
Is that right I mean that'swhat the media told me.
Certainly yeah, that isdefinitely the it wasn't the
corrections officers exploitingpeople with addiction.

Jason (23:22):
So how did you handle that?

Kevin (23:25):
Yeah, for people who relapse a lot they're.
You know it's not always linear.
Recovery is not always linear.
It's not always like you getclean one time and you got it.
I went in and out as many timesas I needed to go in and out
and I guess at that last time Iwas just done and so I just made
this commitment.
I'm going to do whatever I canto stay clean and I don't think

(23:46):
it's because I'm like anextraordinary human being.
It was just I was done at thattime and some people it's their
first time, some people it'stheir thousandth time.
So I never give up on anybodywho's dealing with addiction.
Going in and out, to your point.
Yeah, the staff definitelysmuggling in substances.
You know drugs, alcohol,tobacco, pornography, all kinds

(24:09):
of stuff.
I mean the staff is who'sbringing that stuff in?
So yeah for sure Saw a guardcome in, deliver drugs to a
prisoner and they've receivedtheir payment and then come back
later and bust that sameprisoner for the drugs that they
brought in and then reclaim thedrugs and go go sell them to
somebody else.
I mean it's a sinister thing.
They're keeping people sick Ahundred percent.

(24:30):
It is not a healing environment, despite whatever they might
publicly proclaim.
That is the opposite of whatwas actually happening in there.
For sure, for sure.

Amber (24:39):
So, kevin, I have to say that what you just said is what
most people that I know who havehad a journey with addiction
say.
One day I was just tired, Ijust decided it had to be me,
like it had to come from me.
And you're exactly right.

(25:01):
It's the millionth time, it'sthe second time, it's whenever
the person comes to the pointwhere they're like this is not
what I want my life to be.
Having said that, that takes alot Right.
So a person who can't do that,that time I love that you said I

(25:21):
never give up on someonebecause, there will be a time
where someone can get to thatpoint nobody

Kevin (25:29):
should ever be left without help, so thank you for
sharing that, yeah, I meanthings just don't fit into a
neat little package all the time.
I mean, you know, like my mom,like people would have given up
on her many times.
I mean she fucking kidnappedher own children, you know what
I mean.
Like there's a strong case forlike, oh my God, what a horrible
human being this is and thatwas just simply not true.
Like it just took her a fewtimes and she got clean and she

(25:51):
was amazing by the time she died.
She was like world's sweetest.
I'm on like there was no traceof like people would be in
disbelief to hear that sweetlinda ever did anything other
than be sweet linda the grandma.
You know what I mean.
So I, yeah, I'd never give upon on anybody.
And there there was, like youknow, in prison, because where I
was there weren't resources,there really weren't like

(26:15):
supports.
There was was like AA meetings,I think every now and again
came in, but the system itselfwasn't providing anything like
meaningful in terms of likeaddiction supports or mental
health support.
I had always been sort ofinterested, I sort of like felt
inspired by and called to be aperson of like purpose and I

(26:39):
always felt like drawn to peoplewho did like meditation and had
sort of like this like clearmind, and on the chapel list
where I was, I saw this thingthat said Buddhist meditation
and I was like oh wow,interesting, like amazing that
they have that here too.
Like not only is there musicbut there's meditation.
I should say all of thesethings were supported by people

(27:00):
on the outside.
None of these things werecreated by the prison itself.
So if I'm saying there weregood things there, it's only
because people on the outsidetook it upon themselves to
provide these things.
But anyway, I ended up going tothis Buddhist meditation event
at the chapel and, unbeknownstto me, it was sort of like a
longer event.
Usually it was like an hour aweek.

(27:21):
This was going to be likemultiple hours and their sponsor
from the outside was coming into be present, and so I got in
there and there was a few peoplelike civilians.
I was like, oh wow, people notwearing uniforms Amazing.
They rang the bell.
There was like a littlechanting and things.
They rang the bell and likemeditation started and within

(27:43):
shit, it felt like a minute.
I was like, oh my god, get methe fuck out of here.
Like it was.
So silence peaked around andeveryone was just like sitting
looking, uh, it was appearing tobe like relatively still and
silent.
And I was like, oh my god, likethis is like this is too much
for me, I can't do this.
And I was like I I gotta getout of here.

(28:05):
And I was like, okay, like Ithink I'm just gonna get up and
like walk out.
And I was like, wait, I'm inprison.
Can I just walk out of thisroom?
Am I allowed to do that?
Like are they gonna tackle me?
Like what's gonna happen?
And I was like, okay, well, Igotta get out of this room.
And then I had this moment ofrealizing like, okay, let's say
I get up and I go to this doorand I open it and I get to the
other side of this door.
I was like, oh, I'm going to beon the other side of the thing

(28:28):
I'm trying to get away from isgoing to be on the other side of
that door also.
And I was like, oh my God, likewhere can I go that I am not?
I sort of caught that thoughtand I realized like, oh, kevin,
like that is your whole life,where can I go that I am not?
And that was like this realprofound moment for me of like

(28:50):
all I have been trying to do isoblivion, apocalypse, escape, be
anywhere that this is not like,be anywhere that reality is not
happening.
And so I some reason, in thatlittle reprieve of like
stillness and silence, I caughtthe thought, I saw it and I was
like, oh my god, like, if notnow, when you?

Jason (29:11):
also had told us before we started recording that were
some things that happened inprison that influenced your life
Now and what you're doing now.
Is there anything that you wantto share with us about that?

Kevin (29:23):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, like the people that Imet along the way, like some of
the guys that I ended upmeditating with, and part of the
reason I came home early isbecause one of the guys I became
friends with through meditationwas a law clerk and he was like
how are you here?
And he like looked through mystuff and he ended up filing
these things on my behalf.
I got released a year early andhe actually got me 10 more

(29:44):
months with my mom because shedied later the year that I came
home.
I would have missed these final10 months of my mom's life.
The people I met were soremarkable.
I ended up meditating regularly.
I ended up in this deep, formalstudy with this Zen priest on
the outside.
I was lucky.
I was lucky I had like goodsupport and I was able to like

(30:05):
change my perspective on myself.

Jason (30:07):
I just have to comment that Amber is beaming.
She loves the meditation stuff.
She leads circles andmeditations.

Amber (30:13):
No, I was grinning very big because I'm a sound journey
practitioner, I teach meditation, I teach mindful meditative art
, and so I was like oh, whatMeditation saved your life, duh.

Kevin (30:28):
A hundred percent.
And I should say, like you know, like I sort of the anecdote,
like I hated it at first.

Amber (30:32):
Right.
Many people do.

Kevin (30:34):
So I've been doing still, even years later.
We have a weekly meditationhere that we offer for people
who've been in prison here inour community.
It's a huge part of my life.
It ended up becoming like acentral to my entire existence.

Jason (30:46):
So you get out of prison early, you get to spend time
with your mother.
That's amazing and so fortunate.
I mean just to comment the factthat you were in prison at all
when what you needed was healing.
You could have had thoseprecious moments even before
that, but it's great that youhad some moments with her
towards the end.
And then so I guess life is notforever.

(31:08):
And then so you have toappreciate what you have when
you have it.
So now you're out and you'redoing some phenomenal things,
right?

Amber (31:17):
I'm really excited to hear about the work that you're
doing now, but I want to justquickly, because when we talk
about the harm of the system, alot of times people say, oh, but
the person did this, that orthe other.
So I just want to, as we'retalking about this story, I know

(31:38):
the times that you spend inmeditation, the times that you
were in reflection about yourlife and how you were trying to
get away.
During that self-reflectionprocess, were there thoughts in
your mind about any harm thatyou had caused?
How did that affect you?

(31:59):
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe accountability that comes
with self-realization,self-reflection that, to be
clear, the prison didn't giveyou the people that came in and
you found it within yourself.
So let's talk about that.

Kevin (32:16):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, as you know, inmeditation you think about
everything you know, like, asmuch as you might be like I will
have no thoughts in meditation.
You have fucking good luck withthat.

Amber (32:28):
Yeah, no, that's not how the human brain works.

Kevin (32:31):
Let me know how that goes .
Yeah, so of course, everythingI mean.
Part of the power of meditationto me is that there is nowhere
to hide.
My teacher is called, I guess,the pressure cooker and he would
scream like burn it up.
He's a very enthusiastic man,which is great, but yeah, there
is nowhere to hide.
And so, of course, yes, all ofthe things.
Like you become aware, youbecome at one with all of the

(32:51):
things that you have done inyour life.
And for sure I caused harm, Iwas selfish, I hurt people, I
took things, I was dishonest.
I mean, there's a litany ofthings that I could certainly
point to and take accountabilityfor for sure, and I think that

(33:12):
was important for me to have areal stark, unflinching look at
myself and my life through thelens of accountability and also
through the lens of somecompassion as well.
I tend to be extraordinarilyhard on myself.
Like many people in addictionor just people in the world, I
tend to criticize myself, Idemonize myself in a way that I
would never to somebody else.
I'm way more gracious witheveryone else on the planet than
myself.
So there was a time for me toalso practice some softening,

(33:35):
some level of self-kindness hasbeen, like, really important.
It's still an ongoing part ofmy training, for sure is to
extend that kindness to myselfas well.

Amber (33:43):
I really love the way that you put that, because I
think one of the things that wedo, at least in our culture and
in the United States, is weconflate punishment with
accountability and how someonearrives at accountability.
If you are in a state ofconstant shame, isolation,

(34:09):
self-hatred, all of those things, there's no place for
accountability, right?
Because you're not extendingyourself that self-compassion.
So I love the way that youreally articulated that process
of extending thatself-compassion, because I mean,
we went from I was four and Iwas kidnapped and taken to

(34:30):
Puerto Rico to a journey throughaddiction.
So, like, looking at all thingsin aggregate, here you are
still standing.
That's amazing.
So with that, I think this is agreat transition point to talk
about.
What are you up to right now?

Kevin (34:48):
Shit, I don't know.
No, I'm kidding.
Thank you for saying that.
It's really nice.
I should say too that like theenvironment of the prison I
think this is probably trueanywhere, maybe even magnified
more so in Florida it was not anenvironment that had any
interest in my healing or likerepairing myself or moving

(35:09):
forward to be a productivemember, I mean despite the
advertising.
So like I was the band room guy, at some point they put me into
the cabinet making program.
They're like we're going togive this guy a vocation.
So I went through the cabinetmaking program and I got a
certificate of cabinet makingand then, because I'm such an
organized, eloquent fellow, theymade me the cabinet making

(35:30):
teacher's assistant.
So I was the teacher's aide inthe cabinet making department.
That's how it-.

Amber (35:34):
Otherwise known as like exploited labor 100%.

Kevin (35:37):
And then also, no one ever taught me how to build a
fucking cabinet Like ever ever.
I have this certificate that isutterly I mean.
It is useless.
It's smoke and mirrors.
No one was teaching me anything.

Amber (35:50):
So I won't be calling you for my house renovation.

Kevin (35:52):
Please don't, unless you want a real shit cabinet.
The teacher was the janitor.
He would put his feet on thedesk.
He sold tobacco to theprisoners, which is comical sort
of.
But also when I was releasedfrom prison now the onus is on
me, I am expected to Go build acabinet Right.
So any failure to thrive is nowlike, oh, a reflection of my

(36:14):
personal failure.
We did everything we weresupposed to do to give Kevin a
shot and actually it's justsimply not true.
So that was jarring for me.
And then, when I came home fromprison, I had been clean for
several years at this point.
I had played music, I taught, Igave music lessons, I had been
meditating.
I felt like really on fire tobe a source of good in the world

(36:35):
.
I couldn't wait to get home tomy community and just sort of
like expose that, what had beenhappening.
You know, somewhat likeilluminate the realities of
incarceration and also just likeget involved in some good
things.
And it was way challenging.

Jason (36:48):
And so when you came in the community, said this guy's
been clean, we embrace you.
Everything's great, theopportunities were at your door,
the world was your oyster andthings were fantastic.

Amber (37:00):
You had no problem getting any like picture ID.
None of those things happened,right?

Kevin (37:08):
Jesus.
I mean, I was on fire and itwas a bucket of water over my
head almost immediately.
It was so jarring.
So my mom was still alive atthe time.
I remember like we went to likea Starbucks.
I was like, oh my God, I'mgoing to get a coffee, like a
delicious drink, and I told theperson behind the counter I just
got out of prison.
My mom was like you got to stopsaying that to people.
I was so excited.
She was like this is notlanding the way you think this

(37:30):
is landing.
I was so enthusiastic.

Jason (37:33):
Well listen, if I was working at the Starbucks or I
was a customer at that Starbucksand you said I just got out of
prison, I would give you a highfive and say welcome home.
So you never know who you'regoing to encounter in these
places.

Kevin (37:44):
Correct.
I wish you had been in thatStarbucks.
That would have helped To yourpoint.
It was really hard like gettingan ID, getting stability.
It was hard to like find aplace to live.
I actually I slept in theparking lot of a homeless
shelter for a while.
Our local homeless shelter herein Gainesville, florida, is
called Grace Marketplace and itused to be Gainesville
Correctional Institution.
It's an old prison that's beenretrofitted into a homeless

(38:09):
shelter.
So yeah, grace Marketplace, thehomeless shelter, it is an
amazing organization.
They've helped I don't evenknow how many like thousands of
people now.
They've reduced homelessnesshere.
But undeniably it is an oldprison.
So anyone who's come out ofincarceration, if you show up
there, you're like, oh my God,like the last thing I can bring

(38:30):
myself to do is, you know, gofrom prison to prison.
So I elected.
I was like I can't go in there.
I can't, I can't go in there.
So I slept in the parking lot.
I ended up working there yearslater.
Oddly enough, I ended up goingback there and working as an
advocate and as a guestambassador.
I worked there for like two anda half years or something like
that Amazing organization.
But that's how I came home waslike you've gone through this
incarceration, congratulations.
Now you're homeless,congratulations.

(38:52):
Now it's going to be hard foryou to find a job.
I was on probation.
I had this like long list oflike debt as well.
So there's like probation feesthat there's if you have to do
like any sort of like drugtesting people.
Some people have like anklemonitors, polygraphs, anger
management classes there's likea long list, depending on your
situation, of what you have topay for under threat of

(39:14):
reincarceration.
So I wasn't like back on alevel playing field.
I, you know I came out into adeep, deep hole and it was
terrifying.
You know like there are tearsof joy.
I'm home.
When I finally hugged mydaughter again, when the ocean
touched my body, I mean like youknow bawling, you know
beautiful moments.
And then also you had StarbucksFucking Starbucks.

Amber (39:37):
I mean arguably I'm not a starbucks fan, but I could see
where that could be excitingyeah, it was exciting.

Kevin (39:44):
I was like, oh, a chai, a chai tea, a dirty chai, how
I've, how I've fantasized aboutyou for these long years.
What year did you get out?
Uh, so this is, uh.
The beginning of 2016 is when Icame home okay, all right, yeah,
so there was tears of joy, allthese things, but then also like
this sheer terror, becauseprobation is like if you don't

(40:06):
check these boxes and startproducing money, as if by magic
the solution will be toreincarcerate you.
So in our County here, like a23%, like a quarter of probation
violations due to a lack ofmoney.
Like a 23%, like a quarter ofprobation violations due to a
lack of money not a new crime,not an offense.
The crime is your bank account.
You are just too poor to befree, and so the solution is to

(40:32):
reincarcerate you and put youback into the environment.
That can only exacerbate thatproblem the next time if you're
lucky enough to come home.
So that was my reality Ieventually, really through sheer
mercy not because of my likeextraordinary drive or ambition
Everyone has drive and ambitionMercy Somebody gave me a job.
Somebody I know gave me a jobat a restaurant, which is not
what I like wanted to do in myheart of hearts, but it was like

(40:54):
I will take anything.
I was so desperate and so I waslike I'm going to be the best
goddamn employee this rich manhas ever seen.
And so I was.
And so, like, I eventually tookon this like management role
there shortly after.
So that was like a stabilizingthing and that was important for
me to have that stability.
It gave me like a little bit ofincome and which was missing,

(41:15):
and it removed the threats ofreincarceration, at least for
money for a while.

Jason (41:20):
Some restaurants are known for their culture of
having drugs around and thingslike that.
Was that an issue at thisrestaurant?

Kevin (41:29):
Yeah, it's just like every restaurant, yeah for sure.
Yeah, I mean that is a verycommon thing and there are not
everybody, but there are somefolks that were there that were
definitely like using that was areality.
I was around that and at thetime I was not only was I
totally sober, but I was likealso militant vegan at the time
as well.
So, like the owners of thisrestaurant were like, oh my God,

(41:52):
like you're like a unicorn,like you're a vegan straight
edge guy.
So yeah, I was definitely aloner in that regard in the
restaurant.
It was fine.
Actually, actually being aroundthat stuff was no problem.

Amber (42:03):
I mean, in prison I was around that stuff all the time,
so it was no good, yeah so Ilove one of the things that you
said, so I want to just sort ofrepeat it or highlight it or
lift it up a little more.
You said I was going to be thebest damn employee that this
restaurant ever had.
So I want to highlight this,because here's what happens.

(42:24):
People say, oh, this personcan't possibly be reliable.
They just got out of prison,this, you know.
Like I can't trust them.
And there's all this stigmaaround people who are formerly
incarcerated, and my experiencehas been that the most reliable,
determined people with the mostgrit that are going to be

(42:47):
amazing employees.
I hate to say it like this, butthe truth of the matter is,
when you have so much to lose,right, you are really going to
do your best to keep yourself ina stabilized situation, and
that tends to go a couple ofdifferent ways.
That goes oh, I recognize thisas a business owner and I lift

(43:11):
you up.
Or it goes oh, I recognize thisas a business owner, I'm going
to exploit that desperation.
Oh yeah.

Kevin (43:20):
So let's let's talk a little bit about that.
Yep, I have seen all of that.
My experience was the firstexample where the guys were like
they were super supportive,really great guys.
I mean honestly, those guyssaved my life, Like in, with no,
no exaggeration.
Those guys absolutely like,they saved me.
I love them dearly still, Isupport their restaurant.

(43:43):
They're great anyway, uh, butyeah for sure, there there are
some like companies, even herelocally, where like that is sort
of their um, their businessmodel is exploiting people who
are in a fragile, vulnerableplace, oftentimes many who are
formerly incarcerated.
We're exactly like you'resaying we got you by the balls.
We got you by the balls.
We know that you need this job,we know that you need this
money and so we're going tosubject you to long hours or

(44:06):
backbreaking work.
It's like from the slammer tothe hammer, they say like you
have been released and now forthe rest of your life you will
be relegated to hard labor orlow wages.
Every sentence is a lifesentence.
You will be exploited until theend of your days.
You are now only good forbackbreaking work, whatever it
may be.
And yeah, and to your point,oftentimes they take advantage

(44:28):
of that and people aren't fairlycompensated.
There's a ceiling for theiradvancement, all of the things.
Actually, I'll be excited whenwe'll get there, but we can talk
about some of the greatoutcomes that we've seen with
jobs through our work here hasactually been like be
transformative as well.
I worked at the restaurant forseveral years and it was like
okay, I was like stabilizing mymental health is the last thing

(44:51):
that people take care of whenthey come home.
And that came back to haunt meafter like a couple years,
definitely feeling likedepression, anxiety, like some
suicidal ideations, even justlike God, I felt so ate up
before I left prison.
I knew I was going back tocourt.
I was like I'm going to go home, like I knew it was coming.
And I went to the mental healthworker at the prison and I was

(45:12):
like, hey, I'm having these likechallenging feelings, I'm
feeling anxious, I'm feelingagitated, I'm scared.
And the mental healthprofessional at the prison told
me oh, you got to stuff all that.

Amber (45:24):
I'm sorry.
What Can you repeat that?

Kevin (45:27):
It's like you got to stuff all that.
He just told me to stuff it andI knew enough from my past
history in recovery spaces andin just the world of obvious
mental health that like theadvice to stuff it can't
possibly be the thing.
So I carried that home and soafter a couple of years I felt
really ate up.
I eventually went to our localcrisis center here, ended up

(45:50):
being just by coincidence pairedwith a fabulous therapist
really helped me a lot.
This poor person.
I would go into her officetwice a week and just ball my
eyes up, and then I went once aweek and then I went every other
week and then I went once amonth and I just had to have
like a space to like processlike the atrocities that I had
experienced and witnessed inprison.

(46:11):
I skipped over like a thousandhorrible things that I saw while
I was in prison, the way theytreated people and just awful
things that happened while I wasinside.
That was haunting me, finallykind of started to make some
headway there, feeling better,and I was like you know, this is
great, I am stable, I am home,I have this job, but I felt like

(46:35):
that drive, like that purposewas missing from my life and so
I was like I really want to dosomething.
Something I had been doing someadvocacy work through some
pro-prisoner groups and I sharedmy experience here and there
and was sort of cutting my teetha little bit in the world of
activism and advocacy.
And then, just by chance,somebody I know was like hey,
have you heard about?
There's this thing calledCommunity Spring that's starting

(46:57):
up and they're looking forpeople who've experienced
poverty before to do afive-month fellowship.
I was like I'm not really surewhat these words mean.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
So I was like that soundsinteresting.
So I looked through thisapplication and it was like what
communities do you identifywith?

(47:18):
Can you talk about yourexperience with poverty?
And I was eager to do something.
So I applied, I interviewedwith these people.
It was like Lindsay and Max,these people they had.
They're from Gainesville andthey'd been working in DC for
years and had just come back toGainesville.
They wanted to do some work inthe South and they were all
about economic justice.
A fellow for this little fivemonth experiments, just to see

(47:51):
like is it a good idea?
The idea being that peopleclosest to the problems are
closest to the solutions and sowanting to prioritize.

Jason (47:54):
So you just quoted Glenn Martin.
We have to, we have to give himcredit and and in terms of what
you're doing, what year is this?

Kevin (48:06):
It started in January of 2020.
So five years ago, a little bitover five years ago.

Jason (48:11):
Wait.

Amber (48:11):
Right, right, when COVID was was becoming into the world.
Remember that.

Kevin (48:18):
I recall yeah, yeah, so, yeah.
So we started in January InFlorida.
Perfect, what could go wrong?
Yeah, so we started in January2020.
And the idea was just like,okay, what can we do here
locally to address poverty?
And it was like, based on yourexperience, kind of like, what
do you think?
This is going to be a bit of athink tank?

(48:38):
You are the experts and peoplewho have experienced poverty are
the ones best equipped toaddress poverty.
Come up with genius solutionsto poverty.
And so, by utter coincidence,the five of us had all what kept
coming up was the justicesystem has impacted our lives
either directly or indirectly.
Some of us had beenincarcerated, some of us it was
like a family member, and we'relike what we see here in our

(49:01):
county, in our community, isthere is zero, zero, zero, zero
re-entry supports.
There is nothing.
There's the probation office,which feels like the antithesis
of support.

Amber (49:12):
Right, I was like that doesn't count.

Kevin (49:14):
That's not it.
And then if you looked upre-entry support anything, you
could maybe get there's a phonenumber and if you called it it
rang at the library.
Some good hearted person thatworked at the public library had
basically set up like a lineand they would do what they
could to offer some support.
Basically.
So, like wouldn't it be amazingif, sort of similar to like aa,
like that lived experience,what if there was like a peer

(49:36):
support type thing for peoplewho'd been incarcerated?
Wouldn't that be amazing?
And so we're like okay.
So we started like kind ofbuilding out the structure for
that.
And then we're like butwouldn't it be great if, while
you're still inside, you gotsome information about how to
navigate coming home, like whatto expect and like some
resources?
Because I can't I'm in thefucking parking lot of the
homeless shelter, like you know,there's like it's like a

(49:57):
mystery of like what to do andhow to do it.
So we put together like aresource guide, like a, like a
trifold, and then we got a listof everyone who was coming home
to our County within the next Xnumber of months and we mailed
all of them these resourceswhile they were still inside.
And then we were doing meetingswhen people were coming home.
We're having peer supportmeetings.

(50:17):
To your point, earlier COVIDarrived and so we were like, oh
shit, we had to stop gettingtogether.
It threw a huge monkey wrenchinto everything.
But we had built this momentumand we wanted to still do
something, and we had heardabout the power of direct cash
assistance for differentpopulations.
We're like, yeah, let's do that, even though it's not going to

(50:39):
be related to incarceration.
Anyone who is receiving foodstamps, snap benefits, could
basically put their name in ahat.
As much money as we could everymonth, just through the
community, and we were given out$300 checks.
So basically, we did a lotterydraw every month and it was like
, okay, great, we could help 20people this month and so we
would go hand deliver $300checks and it was really

(51:01):
powerful for people.
It was like the communityraised this money, the community
is delivering this money.
It was really like reallygrassrootsy direct cash
assistance, and 300 bucks is notobviously a life changing
amount of money, but if you cankind of put yourself back in the
space of like the summer of2020, it was like toilet paper
is.
You know?
300 bucks felt like you know azillion dollars.

Amber (51:24):
Also, 300 bucks is the difference between paying a
probation fee and not going backto prison or, you know, your
car being repossessed.
It's not a lot of money, butwhen you're living in poverty,
yes it is.

Kevin (51:40):
Means a lot.
Yeah for sure it was a big deal.
And so that got the attentionof our mayor at the time, who
had just, by coincidence, he hadjust joined this coalition
called Mayors for a GuaranteedIncome, which is just a group of
mayors from around the countrythat think guaranteed income is
just a good policy idea, thatit's just a good practice.
And so he reached out toCommunity Spring and was like,

(52:00):
hey, would you be interested inrunning a guaranteed income
pilot?
If so, we'd have a little bitof seed funding to get it off
the ground.
And so, like everything we hada lot of discussions of, like us
impacted people, like could wedo this?
Should we do this?
This is like a brand neworganization.
Anyway, we're like we came back,we're like it would be cool to
do this, but what if it was forformerly incarcerated people?

(52:22):
Based on our previous workalready, like, wouldn't this be
an amazing synergy of reentrysupport and direct cash
assistance?
And they're like, yeah, okay,let's do that.
And so that sort of planted theseed for what is now our
program, which is called JustIncome.
And we're now in our third yearof doing that.
We're our third cohort ofpeople.

(52:43):
We've had 157 recipients.
We've given out over a milliondollars to people here in
Alachua County, florida, andthat has become my job here.
I was initially the programmanager helping to get the
program off the ground, and mytitle now is Director of
Guaranteed Income here atCommunity Spring.

Jason (53:06):
Somebody comes out of prison and they somehow get
connected to your program andnow they apply and they get a
check regularly.

Kevin (53:16):
Yeah, so the way we do it now.
So we, similar to our previousdirect cash assistance, we raise
as much money as we can andthat tells us we do like an
annual lottery draw, and so thecurrent iteration, and we've
made changes.
So again, we rely on the geniusof people who've been through
it.
So every year we've refined ourwork and we've asked our
recipients how can we make thisbetter?
So let's say, the currentcriteria is if you've been

(53:39):
released within the last year,you can put your name in the hat
and you get 800 bucks a monthfor 12 months.
So you get a full year of it's$9,600 over the course of a year
.
So obviously that is not likeenough to totally live on, but
it provides a cushion, somebreathing room, some stability.
It used to be like a monthlypayment.

(53:59):
Now we're based on feedback.
The first and the 15th of everymonth is 400, 400, 400, 400,
with the idea being that it'llincrease stability financially,
mentally, all the things.
So the first year we did it, wewere studied by the University
of Pennsylvania and the Centerfor Guaranteed Income Research.
They did a mixed methodsrandomized control trial.

(54:20):
So it's not just someding-dangs in Florida telling
you this is a good idea.

Amber (54:24):
There are a lot of smart people in Florida too, which is
fair.

Kevin (54:28):
Correct For sure, but we want this to hold academic
scrutiny.
We want this to be a robuststudy that people can point to
for decades to come.
And so we're like really happyand stoked.
And so just earlier, just a fewmonths ago, we released the
full academic results of ourpilot year and the results were
astounding.
So, like that year that is inquestion, that is being released

(54:50):
now the research results allthat we did, all that we did.
The only thing in this countythat was happening is we gave
people money and we were nice tothem.
Period, it was money andkindness.
There was no, there's still noother existing reentry supports.
There was still no other likethere was no reentry center.
There was still no other likethere was no reentry center.
Since then we have passed afair chance hiring ordinance,

(55:10):
phone calls are free from thejail.
We wiped out 15, 16 jail andcourt fees and now there was a
reentry center staffed byformerly incarcerated people.
So we've changed the ecosystemlocally.
But the year in question, all wedid was money and kindness.
It reduced recidivism by 31percent.
It cut money relatedprobationrelated violations

(55:31):
nearly in half, food insecuritywent away, mental health
skyrocketed and jobs, oh my God,it did not lead to some sort of
rash of unemployment orlaziness.
In fact, people that got themoney stabilized and improved
their jobs.
We knocked it out of the parkand it just goes to show that
what people really need is notcompliance, control,

(55:53):
surveillance.
What people need is resources.
People need some support andjust be treated and recognized
as you are right in this moment.

Jason (56:01):
So you, first of all, congratulations.
Wow, what an amazing story.
You validated Maslow'shierarchy of needs.
That was great and it'sinteresting because, like you
said, put people in this,typically put people in this
situation where you say youbetter go get a job or else
you're going to bereincarcerated and we're not

(56:22):
going to give you any type ofsupport.
Go figure it out.
And you've got this label onyou.
You have no stability andyou're worried about how am I
going to have a roof over myhead, when am I going to get
food and what's going to happennext.
And so what you did was youtook sounds like you took some
of that initial pain out of theway so that people could focus

(56:44):
on recovery, reintegration,working things out, and they
don't need a probation officerstanding over them saying do you
have a job yet?
Do you have a job yet?
Do you have a job yet, whenthey're trying to figure out
where their next meal's comingfrom.

Kevin (56:57):
Yep, we didn't ask anyone to prove they were ready to get
this money or to demonstratetheir worthiness.
Everyone is worthy of support,as they are right now.
That's true 24 hours a day, andthe money is truly, truly,
truly, no strings attached.
People can use it for anythingthey wish.
There's no conditions on it.
Oftentimes, support comes withthis paternalistic nature of

(57:19):
like you must use this forutilities or you got to take a
financial literacy class.
It's like I'm not stupid, I'mnot poor because I'm stupid, I'm
poor because I don't have anymoney.
It's like I'm not stupid, I'mnot poor because I'm stupid, I'm
poor because I don't have anymoney.
People who have experiencedpoverty are actually quite good
with money, and so we saw peopleleverage the income for amazing
things.
Like to your point earlierabout exploitative employers

(57:40):
Jada, she had a job.
She was at a motel cleaning.
Her employer knew she was onprobation and weaponized that
against her all the time and itwas like here's horrible hours,
horrible pay, and she was stuckbecause she had no there's no
buffer, and so he would threatento call her probation officer

(58:01):
if she didn't like acquiesce tohis extraordinary demands.
And so when she, when she gotthis money, she was like kiss my
ass she was like bye, bye.

Amber (58:09):
My human value is worth more than this situation.
Kevin, I love that.
You said all we gave them wasmoney and kindness and for those
that can't see me, I'm cuppingmy hands and kind like the part
about kindness and being treatedlike an actual human being in a

(58:31):
world that places so manybarriers in front of you cannot
be understated.
Would you agree with that?

Kevin (58:38):
100 percent.
A lot of folks have reportedthat the money was great.
It afforded me some materialfill in the blank whatever that
was me, some material fill inthe blank, whatever that was.
However, the fact that I waslike trusted and just seen as a
person and treated with likefull humanity and like I mean
people come in like we call themby their names, we're talking

(58:59):
out like we treat people likeyou know, like we would want to
be treated, and people would saylike that actually, in some
ways, has had more of a lastingeffect than even like the money
itself.
That was a vital component.
It wasn't just the money.

Amber (59:11):
It helps people tear down some of the internalized
messages about who they are.
When there is someone externalsaying I see you, you are a
human.
Human because it can't bereally explained except for
those who have experienced thelabeling and the surveillance

(59:34):
and the incarceration and thetrauma and all of those things,
what that does to your yourselfas a person and how you think
about yourself is am.
I characterizing that correctly.

Kevin (59:45):
That's right, yeah.
When everything is telling youwhat a piece of shit you are, at
some point you start to think,oh, I'm a piece of shit.
I mean, yeah, you internalizeall of those things you begin to
.
I mean your view of yourselfchanges and that's sort of
reinforced by what you're seeingin the culture and everything
around you.
One of my favorite stories.
Like I said, I ended up workingat the homeless shelter years

(01:00:08):
after I had slept in thisparking lot One of the greatest
experiences of my life.
It was fantastic working withfolks in there and just getting
to know people Reallyinformative for me as just a
human being.
But there was somebody there.
Her name was V and she had beenincarcerated.
She was a profound domesticabuse victim actively at that

(01:00:30):
time even her partner at thetime.
It was really bad.
She was eligible to get theguaranteed income and it's a
lottery draw, but she put hername in there, she was eligible,
she met the criteria and shegot selected.
And so from the outside,looking in, they could be like,
oh well, this is a person.
She's living at a homelessshelter, she has substance use
stuff going on.
What a waste.
And she proved everybody wrong.

(01:00:52):
V used the money.
She got away from her abuser.
She was able to extricateherself from an abusive
relationship because she had theresources to escape.
She got into stable housing.
She addressed her addiction.
She reconnected with herchildren and got certified for
work and even years.
So her, her guaranteed incomeended two and a half years ago.

(01:01:13):
She's still clean to this day.
All she needed was someone tojust like believe in her.
She has like the best quote.
I use it all the time.
She said hope goes a long wayfor people who are accustomed to
hopelessness.
Like just believe in me for onesecond.
Like you'd be amazed at what itmeans.

Jason (01:01:30):
I mean hope is definitely a thing right.
I mean, when we talk aboutpeople who I've seen, people who
have given up on hope I knowAmber has seen people who have
given up on hope and you know,just being that inspiration,
your story alone you know whatyou've been able to do without
even helping anybody directlylike your story alone gives

(01:01:53):
people hope and inspiration andI'm sure listening to the
podcast today it's going to givepeople hope and inspiration
going forward that people canovercome some really horrible
circumstances.

Kevin (01:02:04):
Yeah, I hope so.
Yeah, I mean, there's goodthings in the world.
They do exist.
We're now in our third year,our third cohort.
We continue to sort of likerefine our model as we move
forward.
Our three pillars here atCommunity Spring is income power
, community People need incometo meet their needs power to
change systems and a communityto belong in.
And it's cool we're part ofthis like of this national

(01:02:27):
coalition.
We've been sought out now by 35plus organizations and cities
eager to learn from our playbookand how can we do something
here.
Some of those folks are stillplanning, some have launched
their own guaranteed incomeprograms.
It's cool to be a part of itnow this year, especially the
summer and we're now in thecoming up summer of 2025, doing

(01:02:48):
a lot of speaking engagementsand sharing the results in
conjunction with folks who areworking on similar things from
different parts of the countryas well.
So it's cool like we're part oflike this re-entry cash
coalition and hopefully likeshowing that when people just
have like their resources thatthey need, they do better and
it's actually not only is thislike good from a human

(01:03:08):
perspective, this is actuallyit's like fiscally, it's cheaper
.

Amber (01:03:12):
It makes makes so much like logical, scientific, social
sense.

Kevin (01:03:19):
Yeah, I mean it's a better use of resources.
It's a win, win all the wayaround.
Yeah, it's a safer, more stablecommunity.
People are happy.
You want your neighbor to behappy.

Amber (01:03:34):
Kevin, there is so many wonderful things about your
story and, as Jason already said, it is always our hope that
people can be inspired by thebravery of our guests coming on
here and sharing their story,and so my final question to you,
as we wrap up our time together, is if you had one piece of
advice for someone who was on asimilar journey to your own,

(01:03:55):
what would that be?

Kevin (01:03:59):
I think all the time.
There was one day when I was inprison.
I hadn't been there very long,I was in prison and I guess I
had been there maybe like a fewmonths.
It was hot as shit.
I remember that, like I said,florida has no air conditioning.
I was just in this cell.
My bunkie at the time wassomewhere else.
I was just in this cell bymyself.

(01:04:19):
It felt like I was in an oven.
I remember looking out thewindow through the bars at this
hyping hot patch of dirt.
It was just like beaming likescorching sun.
It was like barren nothingcould grow.
It was just like so, so,fucking hot.
And I remember thinking like I'mnever going to get out of here.
I'm going to, absolutely, I'mgoing to fucking die in here,

(01:04:45):
I'm never going to make it outof this prison.
And then also like this sort ofhaunting thought of maybe
you've never not been in here,you know, maybe like you've
always been in this prison, likesort of like reality has
started getting really shittyand I felt like pretty positive,
my life is over, there'snothing good will ever happen to
me again, happy that I was so,so wrong.
And so I try to tell people allthe time like you just don't
know.
I know things feel so awfulright now.

(01:05:07):
Things can feel so discouragingand it can seem like I can't
even envision the path ahead forme.
Just stay, just stay.
You just don't know.
Just stick with it.
It will not always be like this.
There's definitely good thingshappening in the world.
There are good people in theworld.
Just don't give up on yourself.
Just keep staying, stay.

Amber (01:05:41):
Just don't give up on yourself.
Just keep staying.
Stay doing.
Is there for people to look at?
Is there a particular contactinformation that you might want
to say audibly, like how peoplecan find you on the internet or
reach out to your program?

Kevin (01:05:57):
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah, our website isdefinitely the best way to reach
us.
It is csgnvorg, that'sCommunity Spring Gainesville, so
csgnvorg.
And yeah, people can sign upfor our newsletter.
They can contact us directlythrough the website.
Definitely would love people tofollow our work, follow us on
social media, all those things.

(01:06:18):
Anyways, just keep up with whatwe have going on.

Jason (01:06:21):
So thank you, kevin.
When we are going to talk withsomebody new, sometimes we know
a little bit about their story.
We knew a little bit about yourwork.
I was very happy with the wayyou tell the story.
I was with you all the way,from your childhood, all the way
up to the good work you'redoing now.
So I appreciate you for comingand, like I said earlier, you

(01:06:43):
inspired me and I'm sure you'regoing to inspire others because
this is a great story.
So thank you for being here and, amber, until next time.

Amber (01:06:54):
We'll see you next time.

Outro (01:06:58):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.