June 9, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason chat with defense attorney, Laurie Jubelirer who walks us through her remarkable 37-year legal journey that began in prosecution and transformed into passionate defense advocacy.
Growing up in a family of legal and public service professionals—with a father who served as senator for 32 years and a grandfather who was a judge—Jubelirer entered the legal profession driven by the mantra "make a difference." But after years in the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office, and the Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General, she began noticing troubling patterns. Victims were being treated as tools for prosecution rather than individuals with agency. The system prioritized winning cases over finding true justice. Something had to change for her.
Today, as a defense attorney with her own practice, Laurie witnesses first-hand the devastating human cost of our criminal justice system. She shares shocking stories of medical neglect in Pennsylvania prisons, talks about due process issues, over-sentencing, conviction integrity and much more.
About Laurie:
Laurie Jubelirer is the owner of Jubelirer Law, LLC, and her law practice in Montgomery County is devoted to helping individuals facing criminal charges, violations of their civil rights and wrongful convictions. She opened her law practice twelve years ago in 2013. Prior to opening Jubelirer Law, she worked as a prosecutor in the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office and as a Deputy Attorney General in the Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. Ms.
Laurie writes about the experiences of her clients and publishes them with permission in a quarterly column and on social media platforms with the hope that they will bring about positive changes in the criminal justice system. Ms. Jubelirer is a member of Women Owned Law; the Corrections Committee of the Pennsylvania Bar Association; the Montgomery Bar Association Criminal Defense Committee and Judiciary Committee; and a Board member of Congregation Kol Ami in Elkins Park.
Find her online at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauriejubelirer/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.
Amber (00:40):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:42):
Amber.
Today we have Laurie Jubelirer.
Good morning Laurie.
Good morning to you both.
Amber (00:50):
Good morning.
Laurie (00:50):
Really Glad to be here.
Jason (00:53):
And Laurie, for the listeners just share that I've
known you for a very long time,so this is a treat to have you
as a guest and thank you forbeing here.
And I will start with the samefirst question we always ask,
which is could you tell us alittle bit about your life
before entering the criminallegal system and what brought
(01:14):
you into it?
Laurie (01:16):
My father was a politician and a senator for 32
years, so that started when Iwas 11 years old.
His campaigns.
My grandfather was a judge.
My uncle was a lawyer, so Igrew up with it and with
politics and trying to helppeople and do community service,
good things for the community.
(01:37):
When I was young and wheneversomeone asked me what do I want
to do, I always thought it waseither a teacher or a lawyer.
I wanted to teach and impactpeople and help, and then the
lawyer was.
I think it's innate inside methat I wanted to help people and
my father always says the threeimportant words are make a
(01:59):
difference.
And that impacted me a lot andthat's what I do and that's what
gives me a lot of joy andsatisfaction.
Jason (02:07):
Awesome, so you had an idea of what you were getting
into.
So you ended up going to lawschool and you fulfilled your
dream.
Laurie (02:16):
I did when I went to law school.
I picked Temple Universityprimarily because I loved the
idea of being a trial lawyer, alitigator, and they were known
for that to teach us how to trycases to litigate.
I was on the moot court and themock trial team and had a lot
of professors who taught me howto try a case, like practical
(02:41):
experiences, and I also got anLLM, which is an advanced degree
in trial advocacy.
After that, in 1995, like aboutfive or about eight years after
I graduated law school, Awesome.
Amber (02:54):
And so, Lauri, where are you from?
Like what area of?
Laurie (02:56):
the country I'm originally from, altoona,
pennsylvania, which is in themiddle of the state of
Pennsylvania.
I would say it's a rural areaand when I was growing up at
some point perhaps it was inhigh school I decided I really
wanted to leave and be in ornear a city and that's why I
(03:17):
chose the University ofPennsylvania for college because
it had a beautiful campus andit was in a city and I wanted
more diversity and culture,different kinds of people and
experiences, and that's why Ileft and I didn't like the
feeling of when I grew up thatpeople were much the same and
didn't understand people thatwere different from them, and I
(03:39):
didn't want my children to growup in that kind of atmosphere.
So I stayed in Philadelphiaonce I went to college.
I've stayed here.
I've been here ever since.
Amber (03:49):
All right In the big PA up there.
Jason (03:51):
Mm-hmm, so where did your career take, you?
Laurie (03:57):
During law school I had an experience in the
Philadelphia District Attorney'sOffice, which was my dream job
back then.
I loved being in court, I loveprosecuting and at that point it
was seeking justice and doinggood for the people in the
Commonwealth.
And so the summer experienceafter my second year of law
school I got to go in court andactually try and handle cases
(04:19):
under supervision.
But I handled them and I hadvictims and witnesses and judges
and in the court like almostevery day and I and that and
then I applied to have that jobafter that experience and I was
accepted in my third year of lawschool.
So that was my very first legaljob and it was a wonderful
experience.
Amber (04:38):
And so what was it about that particular experience?
Was it sort of about thatparticular experience?
Was it sort of delving into thelaw, understanding what, what
was?
Laurie (04:53):
it.
Exactly that made you reallylike, excited about being in
court.
A lot of my colleagues in lawschool they got jobs where they
would do research, writing andnot get to have have direct
experience legal experience,litigation experience and I was
thrown and put in the courtroomright away and I love that.
I love doing it and it taughtme how to be comfortable trying
(05:14):
cases.
A lot of lawyers are afraid totry cases and that made me
comfortable thinking on my feet,fighting, arguing on my feet.
So I love that and I wanted tocontinue that and I was really
grateful that I was able tosecure my first lawyer job there
.
Jason (05:33):
How similar is it to what we see?
I mean, there are a million TVshows and movies that show
lawyers trying cases.
Are there any that stand out asthe most realistic or is
completely different from whatwe see?
Laurie (05:47):
Yes, the TV shows make it seem somebody will confess on
the stand, for example, or sayyou know, like, for example,
someone who's the accused, thedefendant, in a criminal case.
It makes it look so much easier, like the evidence is so strong
and then they'll confess, or oncross-examination, something
(06:08):
big will turn up.
And it's not like that inreality.
It's more complicated andcomplex and sometimes you have
witnesses, that recant forexample, and you have to figure
out well, what do I do?
And I have to introduce theirprior statement, and things get
a little messy and complicated.
But TV makes it look mucheasier and it's not that way.
Jason (06:30):
Did you always feel like you were on the right side of
justice and you were out theredoing great work for humanity?
Laurie (06:40):
I did at the time that I was in the district attorney's
office.
But I can say with confidencethat I feel more so now as a
defense attorney like way moreso that I'm on the right side of
justice because I see a lotgoing on and my clients are
human beings.
Now At the DA's office it wasthe Commonwealth and that's yes.
(07:00):
It's the victim in a sense, butthey're not my client.
My client's not the victim,it's the commonwealth, the
people.
Now I have human clients and Ifeel exactly like a passion
making a difference more on thisside.
Jason (07:16):
So we'll get into that a little bit, but could you tell
us about your journey, like whatwas the transformation for you
that said, here I am as aprosecutor, I'm doing this work,
but I really want to be on thedefense side, like what happened
?
Was there a moment?
Laurie (07:34):
I would say not a moment , but a number of experiences
along my journey journey.
I was in the districtattorney's office for eight
years and then a lot of us feellike, well, if you're not going
(07:55):
to be there for a careerposition, then let's move on to
do something else.
And I had a few jobs in betweenthe district attorney's office
and opening my own practice.
The district attorney's officeand opening my own practice and,
honestly, I was never reallycompletely happy and satisfied
with what I was doing.
I did some civil work as anemployment lawyer of plaintiffs.
I did some.
(08:16):
And then I worked in theattorney general's office, for
many years actually, but again,that was it was civil work, and
my clients again weren't humanbeings, they were in litigation.
I represented state employees Iguess they wereDOT, which is
the Department of Transportationoh, someone had an accident on
(08:50):
a pothole.
So it didn't satisfy me as muchas what I do now.
And then, while I was there, Ikept dreaming about opening my
own practice and thinking thatthis is what I wanted to do, and
it took some time, but I had itin my head.
When I turned 50, which was in2012, I think that I was going
(09:14):
to open my own practice and Iactually did in 20, right around
, right after I turned 50 or 51in 2013.
And I did it with no clientsand it was very hard in the
beginning, but now I'm justexactly where I would have
dreamed to be.
So Laurie, I have a questionfor you, Something that you
(09:36):
mentioned really sort of spurreda lot of the things that we
talk about when we talk aboutthe system itself and how it
serves humanity and human beingsand justice.
Right, I heard you say I wasrepresenting the state, I was
not representing the victims, orthe victims were not my client,
(09:57):
and so, just for background, wetalked to a lot of different
people on this podcast and Imyself am a crime survivor.
I have a family member who wentthrough the system and had the
prosecutor say multiple timesI'm not your lawyer.
Did you see how that frameworkmight be harmful to victims?
(10:22):
Did that occur to you in themoment?
Yes, For example I'll give an example a domestic
violence case.
Let's say the victim andoftentimes the victims were
women.
Let's say the victim changedher mind and things got better
and they decided you know what?
(10:42):
I don't want to prosecute.
We have children together.
I don't want my significantother going to jail.
I'm comfortable, you know, inthe moment I called the police
but I don't want to prosecuteanymore.
And then the DA's office islike it's not your choice, we're
the Commonwealth, we're goingto call you to testify, whether
you like it or not and I don'tknow if the right word is, but I
(11:04):
didn't like that experience andit didn't seem that that was
justice.
Maybe there was some othersolution that was better for
both sides, all sides.
And that's an example where thevictim's not feeling like
they're being forced andcompelled to come to court on
behalf of the Commonwealth, butit's not their choice.
Jason (11:24):
So you had to move forward.
You know as a person in thatrole you had to do your job but
you didn't feel good about itsounds like.
Laurie (11:32):
It was really challenging.
Now, sometimes I understoodthat people were, for example,
in a very like a seriousshooting case for example.
People were scared.
They thought, oh my God, if Icome in and testify I'm going to
get retaliated against.
So I understood that and thosecases you kind of felt like,
okay, I have to do the rightthings.
(11:52):
I really believe, with all theevidence here, that this
defendant is the shooter and Ihave to bring in this witness,
even though they'reuncomfortable and even though
they're recanting.
But in some other types ofcases, like I just said, with
domestic cases, family cases,close relationship cases, the
victim should have more of a sayin the solution and resolution
(12:16):
in those cases.
Jason (12:17):
It sounds to me like it didn't just happen one time this
happened.
It was systemic.
Laurie (12:24):
Correct, it was very systemic.
Amber (12:28):
It seems like this was a number of years ago and you've
made different changes andwhatnot.
Was there any talk at that timearound restorative practices,
restorative justice?
Is that something that you'refamiliar with for those cases?
Laurie (12:44):
Very good question.
Back then, when I was a DA inthe 80s and 90s, it was all
about prosecution, punishmentand winning.
Now, in the 2020s, it's verydifferent.
The Philadelphia districtattorney his name is Larry
(13:04):
Krasner is all about restorativejustice, justice, what's the
right thing.
It's not prosecute, punish, win.
It's doing the best thing forthe community, for the defendant
, for the victim, like the rightthing, and the right thing can
vary from case to case.
But back then, I just want tosay in the 80s, 90s, 70s and I'm
(13:29):
doing a lot of post-convictionwork now I'm learning that the
detectives, especially inPhiladelphia, and the police,
all they wanted to do was win,and they would bring in people
from the streets and threatenthem and do bad things to them
in order to get them to say, topoint the finger at the
defendant that was accused justbecause they thought he was
(13:52):
guilty or she.
And then now in mypost-conviction work, I'm seeing
the bad results of peoplespending decades in prison who
are innocent and finding the DAhas an open file policy.
So we're finding new evidenceto show they in fact were
wrongfully convicted or theyshould be exonerated, and it's
rampant.
I can't believe what I'mfinding and seeing, but it gives
(14:16):
me a lot of pleasure to be ableto do this kind of work to turn
things around for them.
Amber (14:21):
Yeah, that is amazing, and I think that one of the
other things that we experiencedand I know I've experienced in
my own experiences is this ideaof budgets being very different
in terms of defense budgets andthe, you know, prosecutor's
(14:45):
office.
Is that something that you wereaware of or have ever really
thought about?
Laurie (14:51):
I have been aware of it that the DA's office salaries
for example, the assistantdistrict attorneys, are earning
more than the public defenders,have more resources, have more
budget is higher and so it'smore challenging.
The defender's office, thepublic defender's offices, have
had a lot of financialchallenges because of it, and
(15:13):
their work is just as important.
It should be equal, butoftentimes I'm aware it might
have changed up to now, but inthe past it's been very
different and it's not fair now,but in the past it's been very
different and it's not fair.
Amber (15:31):
So, Laurie, when you think about different things,
that you experiences orparticular cases, we understand
that, like you can't talk verysuper specifics, but was there
anything that really stood outto you and you think about?
And I know Jason mentioned youknow what was your turning point
and it sounds like it was kindof a slow burn, but are there a
case or two that really pulledat your heartstrings?
Laurie (15:54):
there's so many.
I'll tell you some of them thatare pulling at my heartstrings
now is the medical treatment inthe prisons.
It's awful beyond words.
An example one of my clientswas having a stroke and he
(16:18):
yelled out for help to thecorrections officer.
I think he eventually did go tothe medical department but they
turned him away, sent him backto his cell.
He ended up being like, I mean,he had multiple strokes and he
ended up being paralyzed or onone of his sides and the rehab
has been unbelievable.
(16:38):
This is an example among somany.
And so he has had to sufferunnecessarily because the
medical people are the worst ofthe worst.
They're all about saving money,they're not about helping
people and they torture peoplehonestly because somebody will
complain and they'll delay anddelay and delay and delay and
(16:59):
then their situation's worse, somuch worse.
And I do those kinds of lawsuitsthat are civil rights lawsuits
and unfortunately it feels likeI file them and I litigate them,
but it doesn't seem to bemaking it.
I wish it would be making adifference, and that's what one
of the things I want to figureout.
How can I do that?
(17:19):
And that's one of the things Iwant to tell my clients stories
and let people hear thesuffering and maybe that will
help.
But another example a clientwho was disabled was transported
to, I think, from one prison toanother and he needed to be
strapped in and put in awheelchair in a handicapped
(17:41):
accessible van.
And he wasn't and they threwhim to the, put him on the
ground for two hours rollingaround in the van like they
these people have no hearts andthen he got very badly hurt.
That's another client of mineand he has a lawsuit.
So I learn over and over fromthe phone calls and the
(18:04):
communications with theseclients about the corrections
officers are mean and nasty andinhumane and like torturers.
They don't care about thepeople in the prison, they care
about their paycheck.
And the same with the medicalpeople.
It's both.
And those cases I hear over andover and most of them all of
(18:27):
them are in Pennsylvania Countyand state prisons and I want to
be able to keep telling thesestories because it needs to
change.
And people don't get any better, they get worse because they're
tortured in there.
They're not rehabilitated orthey're not correctional
facilities, they're I don't evenknow what to call them, they're
just places of torture.
Jason (18:48):
You know, it's interesting to me because when I
pay attention to the storiesthat come out about prisons,
it's usually the stories thattend to bubble up to the
national level seem to be in theSouth, and Pennsylvania is not
(19:11):
a state that I would think aboutas like this is a horrible
place to go if you'reincarcerated and you're painting
a very different picture.
Laurie (19:22):
There are some prisons that are better than others.
Picture, there are some prisonsthat are better than others,
but for the most part, like theone that's in my area is known
for, I'm hearing over and overand over about clients that are
being abused, neglected.
There's one prison in the areaI don't know if you're familiar
with the Scandinavian system,but there's SCI, which means
(19:43):
State Correctional Institution,at Chester has a portion of that
prison that's called LittleScandinavia and they're doing a
lot of good and that needs to beexpanded, and I believe that
their intentions are to expandit.
So I have a little bit of hopethat things are going to get
better for some not all, but theScandinavian system for those
who don't know is more humane.
(20:04):
The guards and the people are onan equal level.
How can I help you?
They're more about helping,treating, supporting, educating.
They give them more freedom,their selves.
I think.
They have a kitchen, they maketheir own meals, they work.
They feel more pride in theirlives and they're not being
punished necessarily.
(20:24):
Yes, they feel more pride intheir lives and they're not
being punished necessarily.
Yes, they are because they'rein jail, but they're getting
better, they're beingrehabilitated, they're being
treated like humans and I have alittle bit of hope that things
will change, but it's going totake a lot of work and things in
many Pennsylvania prisons arebad.
Jason (20:41):
Jason, like you said, yeah, that's what I was going to
say.
They treat them like they'rehuman beings, right, like
they're worthy of any type ofdignity whatsoever.
Wow, that's, that's cool.
Laurie (20:52):
I know that's more rare and you get like, oh my God,
like really Like wow, yeah, it'susually the opposite.
So when things something goesright which I don't usually hear
about those because people arecalling me for help, but it's
still a pleasure to hear aboutsome positive experience in a
prison that made someone better.
Amber (21:12):
I mean, I think what I'm hearing from you is all centered
in humanity.
Even like, from the beginning,right, it was like I wanted to
help people and you know I hadthis opportunity.
And then you went, you saw, youdid right and in the way that
you were able to, in that momentyou were helping people because
it was about justice, right.
(21:33):
And then, as things went on,you saw some different things
about the health care.
I think one of the things thatunfortunately happens again,
taking away the individuals whowork in the system, who have
(21:54):
been put into a culture that isa culture of dehumanization,
right.
So the corrections officersmaybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I
don't believe that, by and large, most people start out wanting
to go in and torture people.
I think a lot of police officersgo into service for some of the
(22:15):
same reasons that, like you,became a prosecutor, like people
I'm not saying all there aresome that in every profession,
people go in for the wrongreasons.
There are some that in everyprofession, people go in for the
wrong reasons.
But then, when you're there andwe've talked to mental health
professionals who are working inthe system that are like, I
thought I was going to change itfrom the inside out or things
(22:36):
like that.
I think one of the issues, ortwo issues, is what I tend to
see and I want to ask youropinion on.
One is the culture that ishappening inside prisons, and
two is this idea that we areputting people in permanent
residential living situationswithout providing them with
(22:59):
permanent preventative care,health care that is actual
health care.
We're basically putting them inthis long-term situation, but
giving them acute care it's likeokay, rub some ibuprofen on it,
your arm is off, you'rebleeding out, here's your
ibuprofen.
(23:19):
So, what are your thoughts onthose concepts?
Laurie (23:23):
It's true, I hear about people with very major things,
major health things going on.
I had a client with.
He finally was diagnosed withCrohn's disease but he was his
pain and his stomach and hislike years of suffering.
Like you say, like here, takeTums or whatever, but it took
(23:46):
years and years.
They're trying to save money.
Honestly, a lot of the problemsare due to greed, economics.
People are making money fromthe system so it's good to have
the more people in there becauseyou have the commissary, the
(24:08):
GTL, which is the communications.
All these people are makingmoney.
Prisons in the rural areas,giving people jobs it's a lot of
that.
In terms of the medical care,yes, they'll try to do
everything they can to give theibuprofen or the little rubbing
alcohol, whatever the neosporin,and then after, like major,
(24:30):
major delays, when things are somuch worse, then they'll take
them to the outside specialistor hospital.
But I hear what you're sayingand I agree with you that it's
not a correctional system.
It's not helping people ingeneral.
There may be exceptions, butit's making them worse.
They're desperate.
(24:50):
Sometimes I'll literally have aconversation with someone and
I'll make them feel betterbecause I'm a compassionate,
caring person and I just spent20 minutes with them on the
phone and they're like I feel somuch better.
So they're having oppositeexperiences there, where they're
demeaned and put down andtreated like worse than animals.
It's hard for me to understandhow one human can treat another
(25:11):
as I've seen.
Amber (25:13):
Great, yeah, and I think one of the things that I'm
hearing you saying is, again,we're going back to that idea of
humanity and in that, I thinkwhat we do is we isolate and we
shame.
And one of the best things thatwe can do is have conversations
(25:35):
with people like yourself andbe in proximity to people who
have had these experiencesBecause, truth be told, before I
knew what I knew, I didn't knowit and I thought everything was
fair and like you saw on TV andinnocent till proven guilty and
all of those things.
What is your thoughts on that?
Laurie (25:56):
That's I agree with you and that's one of the reasons
why I do a lot of writing and Iwant to create awareness and,
hopefully, some change.
I feel like I might need towrite a book and give it to the
legislators and governors ofstories of all these clients and
let them see where our taxmoney is going.
It's, it's not.
And if it were any otherbusiness or company, if all this
(26:17):
money's going, and if it wereany other business or company,
if all this money were going tothis business or company and it
wasn't working, why would youkeep doing it the same way?
Well, guess what, in the systemof the government and the
prisons it's not helping, it'smaking people worse, but yet
it's costing we taxpayers a lotof money, millions and millions
(26:38):
and millions.
Like why is that?
It makes no sense.
But you see the politicians onTV thinking look at this weak DA
, mr Krasner, for example, likehe's making more crime.
In reality, actually, he'sactually making crime less
because he's thinking about whatthe best solution is for each
(27:00):
case and doing the right thingand making them yeah a better
result you're.
Jason (27:05):
You're tapping into that same idea that you know it's.
Everybody measures theabsolutes in the media, right
like there was this one personthat went out and did this bad
thing.
So the whole thing that thisprogressive person can't be
doing the right stuff becausethey allowed this one bad thing
to happen.
However, before there were 10bad things that were happening
(27:27):
and now there's one, so you'vegot to look at it at a relative
basis.
Has this policy made thingsworse or better?
And we tend to look at theabsolutes, because you're never
going to make crime go entirelyaway tend to look at the
absolutes, because you're nevergoing to make crime go entirely
away.
Amber (27:46):
Correct yeah, correct yeah.
And people talk a lot aboutlike risk and things like this,
as if A you can completelymeasure risk or tell the future
as much as we just really wantto.
Right, we all want to have acrystal ball.
Humans are complex, so thisidea that we know what's going
to happen based on the past andflattening people into their
past is probably not the bestway to go about things.
(28:07):
Laurie, I want to ask you aboutpersonal impact.
You know, over the years, thework that you've done, either
celebrations, right of work andfulfillment, or days where you
felt am I doing the right thing.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Laurie (28:31):
I know inside me I feel like I always, every day, feel
like I'm doing the right thing.
And the right thing varies fromcase to case and person to
person.
Sometimes the right thing isnegotiating a plea of somebody
who get a lot, something worsethan what I'm trying to do for
them.
That's sometimes justice inthat case, and then other times
(28:55):
it's fighting until the endbecause you believe your
client's innocent and didn't doanything wrong and and fight,
fight, fight, fight.
And people often ask me, likehow can you do what you do if
you think someone's guilty?
I'm like that's not how I thinkat all.
I just think everyone has theright to a lawyer, everyone has
the right to a defense and thankgoodness for the constitution
and that's whatever.
You, anyone in your family orloved one and you'd want them to
(29:18):
have the right to a lawyer andthe best result.
So, personally, I've had my ownpractice for the last 12 years.
I've never.
I love, love, love, what I doand I love the impact that I
have on all my clients becauseeven if there's a bad outcome,
they're generally very gratefulthat they had a good advocate.
(29:41):
So that makes me feel very,very personally fulfilled, and
more so than anything that I'veever done before.
Amber (29:52):
That's amazing and I can only imagine, over the course of
12 years of working withclients in that capacity, how
many lives that you've touched.
I have to say I do remember, inmy interactions with the system
, finding someone who gave someglimmer of compassion in any
(30:15):
given moment.
So, whether it was going to aprison and having one person
treat you like a human becauseeven as a visitor right, people
are not that nice felt like Iwas being shaken down and
(30:41):
whatever.
And I remember, in particular,one corrections officer that
showed me some small inkling ofcompassion during this process,
tried to make a little joke,whatever, try to make it a
little bit like we weren't doingwhat we were doing, and that
really went a long way, right.
So I think that cannot beoverstated that compassion, no
(31:06):
matter where you fall out in thesystem, is imperative.
So thank you for doing that100%.
Laurie (31:14):
It makes people better themselves, even if you have
somebody on their side who seesthem as a human.
But if it's the opposite, thesystem is going to fail.
So I very much agree with you.
Jason (31:28):
So, as an attorney who's watching the news and you see
things happening where peopleare snatched off the street
without due process and thingslike that, how are you reacting
to what you're seeing in realtime?
Laurie (31:48):
My heart hurts so much.
I just wrote something aboutthis and I posted it on Facebook
and LinkedIn because it's sodisturbing.
The gentleman his name is MrGarcia, in Maryland is the
example.
I see all that I do for myclients and I see that we get
court hearings and we get dueprocess, even if I don't agree
(32:12):
with the result.
I'm getting a hearing.
I'm getting to say, getting toadvocate for their client.
The judge is making a decision.
That's called due process andthe idea that our country can
just take someone becausethey're an alleged immigrant and
not even somebody with anecessarily with a criminal
(32:32):
history, without any going infront of any judge, is
absolutely outrageous and Ibeyond words that I can say and
I feel.
And then I recently saw twojudges that were arrested within
the last couple of days forallegedly quote hiding an
immigrant or something.
I'm outraged beyond words and Ihope and pray that we have
(32:59):
people in our country thatcontinue to fight back against
this.
It's wrong, it's against ourconstitution.
One of the basic tenets of ourconstitution is due process.
We can't just say, oh you have,I don't like the color of your
skin, I don't like where youwere born, I don't like your
religion, exists.
Therefore, you don't belonghere without a hearing, without
(33:22):
approving anything that theyjustifying their deportation.
I've had clients who are from,not from this country, who are
undocumented, accused of crimes,but they've had their hearings,
they've, and if they've beenfound guilty, they serve their
time and then they get deported.
After seeing an immigrationjudge, it's all proper.
(33:45):
I've never, ever, seen anythinglike this and it's frightening
to me.
It's frightening I, we, we liveby our constitution and our
three branches of government andit's not happening and it's
very disturbing.
Jason (34:02):
I mean, amber, to hear Laurie say that, you know like I
have my feelings about it.
But to hear it from somebodywho's been studied the law, been
in the law, you know yeah.
Amber (34:12):
I mean, I think you're exactly right, and it makes me
think about something.
Actually, one of our previousguests said that I just felt was
so profound what we accept forothers, we must also be willing
to accept for ourselves.
Right, and so people who havenot really had to think about it
(34:34):
or been touched by injustice orwhatever touched by injustice
or whatever come in contact withthe system, think, well, okay,
if that person, who was acriminal gang member, didn't
have due process, good riddance,right Again.
But who was it that said thatthey're a criminal gang member?
(34:54):
What was the evidence that theywere a criminal?
So this means, okay, I'm walkingdown the street and somebody
walks up to me and says Amber,you're a criminal gang member,
get in this van.
Oh, you don't want to get inthe van, I'm going to snatch you
and put you in this van and youknow what?
I'm sending you to an ElSalvadorian prison.
(35:14):
And I might say I'm not in acriminal gang.
What are you talking about?
I'm from Connecticut, you know,like whatever, guess what.
There's nothing that anybodycan do without due process.
So I think people reallycritically need to think about
that, regardless of whether, ifit can be weaponized against
people that you hate, it can beweaponized against you if the
(35:39):
conditions were different.
Period, end of story.
Laurie (35:42):
Injustice for them is injustice for all of us.
That's right.
It could be us next.
They don't like my tattoo?
Right, we need to.
Every one of these are humanbeings.
And the other scary thing is,once they're in the El Salvador
prison, they don't get the samerights that we have in our
(36:05):
prisons.
In our prisons, we still havethe Constitution.
If we're tortured, abused,neglected, once you leave the
country, you don't have thatanymore.
It's awful, and who knows howlong they're going to be there.
They're not going to see ajudge.
Amber (36:31):
They're just.
It's frightening.
I am very encouraged by theamount of people who are in the
streets doing what they can doin whatever area of influence.
Lawyers like yourself sayingthe things that you're saying,
(36:59):
writing things on the Internet,writing op eds you know
different organizations in courtfighting these things.
I am feeling hopeful that wewill hold the line.
It does feel very terrifying,but I'm feeling very hopeful
because of the amount of peoplethat I have talked to, seen,
been in interaction with, thatare like wait a minute, this is
not what we do.
This is not America.
Jason (37:24):
Yeah, and the other thing, Laurie, you know we talk
to people, amber and I talk topeople who have criminal records
, all you know, all the time,and we talk with people and a
lot of the people have sexconvictions.
So, when there's suchinflammatory talk about what are
we going to do with thesepeople, right, and these
criminals and these people whohave done these things and the
thought that they're going toexpand it and there are people,
(37:48):
even it's one thing you'retalking about people who are
from other countries, which is,I think, is horrible, but then
you're talking about Americancitizens potentially being
rounded up in the same way.
We are in very dangerous times.
Amber (38:03):
I agree and I mean, I think it's all and I think you
said it, jason it's all bad,like if you are a human and
you're being treated in this way, regardless of your immigration
status, regardless of yourcitizenship, regardless of
whatever.
This is not the way that ourConstitution allows people to be
(38:24):
treated.
This is not the fabric ofAmerica and it's very scary, and
I think that a lot of peopleleft and right are realizing
this.
Jason (38:36):
Which is good, because I think there has to be such a
strong reaction that says thisis not okay, because you've kind
of flipped the switch that saysit is okay and a lot of people
are out there like cheering iton.
So it's not like everybody'scheering it on, but there's
still 20, 30% of the countrythat thinks this is okay and
(38:56):
that's not OK.
Laurie (38:58):
It's not the United States of America, it's not who
we have always been.
Amber (39:03):
If we were on the outside looking into another country,
we would be accusing them ofhuman rights violations, war
crimes and, to be fair, I needto say out loud this is very,
very visible.
Out loud, this is very, veryvisible and people are like,
(39:24):
whoa, this is horrible, but thishas been happening in our
country to certain populationsforever and ever and ever.
And so, on one hand, whilepeople are saying this is
horrible, this is injustice,people aren't getting due
process, people are beingtreated unfairly.
Let's not pretend.
This is a good opportunity todiscuss things like.
(39:45):
You mentioned, this idea thatpeople aren't getting health
care, they're not getting dueprocess in rural, no mechanism
(40:11):
to speak out and no one to share.
What's happening then?
What's to stop it?
You have no voting rights.
Who's going to stop it?
Laurie (40:21):
That's what I always say .
It's behind closed doors.
No one sees what's going on inthe prisons, for example, and
their voices aren't being heard.
So it's important, that's mypassion, and what I do is let
their voices be heard.
I want people to know what'sgoing on and, like I said, I
hope that it will bring aboutsome change at some point.
(40:43):
But it seems that people onlyget upset when it's them and
their loved one.
Oh, now I understand, but if itdoesn't have anything to do
with them, they seem like yousay, amber, not to care.
Jason (40:53):
Do you think the change that's required is incremental
or do you think it'stransformational?
Laurie (41:04):
I think, because we're going to have to do it one step
at a time.
I don't think it's going tohappen in a big way all at once.
I think we need to take littlesteps so people understand how
bad it is and that it's not okayto think that putting people in
prison is going to solve crime.
It's not, especially in prisonsthat make them worse.
It's not.
The money should be to helpthem.
Jason (41:25):
It's always funny when we talk about sentence lengths,
right?
So one person might say, oh,they only got five years
incarcerated, and my response isalways like could you try one
day incarcerated before you saythat only five, like it could
really have a negative impact onyour whole life versus being
something that's positive.
(41:45):
So what are your thoughts onsentence lengths?
Laurie (41:49):
Especially in Pennsylvania.
I can't speak for other states,but there used to be mandatory
sentences for certain things.
A lot of them have beeneliminated, but one of the
things I'll give you an examplein Pennsylvania, and I'm hoping
that it will change is calledfelony murder and life sentences
(42:09):
.
Felony murder means if you andyour friend, you and your cohort
, go and decide you're going tocommit a robbery or steal
something or anything and thefriend, having nothing to do
with you, ends up killing thembecause you were involved in the
felony, I guess, the robbery.
You went to steal somethingfrom someone and you had no idea
(42:31):
the friend was going to killthem.
You could be found guilty offelony murder and in
Pennsylvania right now as wespeak, it's a life sentence and
I have a lot of clients thathave been in for decades for
things that happened when theywere kids, like 19 years old.
They were adults but they werekids.
(42:51):
The Supreme Court ofPennsylvania is currently
considering whether that lifesentence for felony murder is
unconstitutional meaning.
Is it cruel and unusualpunishment against the Eighth
Amendment, and I'm hoping,fingers crossed, that they
realize it is.
We call it death byincarceration.
These life sentences arehorrendous.
(43:13):
Many of my clients are nowolder and they need a lot of
medical care.
So our money's going there Low,low, low or no chance of
recidivism.
And they could do a lot of goodout here.
They could do a lot of goodwith the young people and the
young generation and try toguide and help them.
But I'm outraged by thesentences that I've seen and the
(43:35):
prosecutors who don't realize.
And the prosecutors who don'trealize like Jason says, five
years is a lot Like.
Some of these sentencingsituations are huge.
And Pennsylvania we haveguidelines and we're supposed to
go by the guidelines and wetalked about this earlier about,
oh, they're all about like, ifyou do this, then you get that,
so prediction that have nothingto do with each individual case.
(43:57):
If you have this, then you getthat, so you have to really
fight against that.
Jason (44:04):
I mean the whole concept of time when you're in the
legal system is crazy.
I know lawyers work nonstophours so they might lose track
of what an hour is like, but thecontinuances between when
you're arrested and finallyconvicted can be can feel like a
lifetime because you're in thatstate of limbo and then you
(44:26):
deal with it, whether it's theincarceration phase, the
probation or parole phase andsome type of supervision.
I mean it can take decades offof your life.
Amber (44:39):
I think the rigidity of the system tends to be very
incompatible with the complexityof humanity, right and so when
I think about I had a familymember who experienced senior
exploitation, and so the personwho committed this crime against
(44:59):
my family member, who I was thepower of attorney of, was being
held accountable in court, andI had to go to court many times.
It's in a different state thatI lived to the state to attend a
hearing that had been continuedand nobody told me.
(45:25):
It's awful awful, so I'm justsaying like, again, the rigidity
of the system or the way thatthey um, it's incompatible with
the way people live their reallives, right?
So I think that if we couldinfuse a little bit more
flexibility and humanity intothe system, then it might be
(45:47):
useful, and it sounds likeyou're doing that.
Laurie (45:50):
I agree, and the people that make the laws.
They don't have the same kindof experiences with the humans
that are affected by the lawsthat I do and others do.
So they don't know.
They just think that it's acertain way and if you do X,
then you get Y, and they don'tknow how they're affecting
people and what the people areexperiencing, because they've
(46:12):
never experienced, they've neverspoken with them.
Jason (46:16):
So let me ask, Laurie, you've been working in the field
a long time, first as aprosecutor, then on the defense
side doing your own practice.
You have a lot of experience.
You've talked about that today.
You were also raising a familywhile you were an attorney.
Did any of this come into yourhome life, how you were as a
(46:39):
mother, as a wife, you know,raising your family.
Was there any impact orspillover, or not really?
Laurie (46:47):
Well, my kids always knew that I was.
You know I was working and whatI did, and by the time that I
set out to start my own practice, my kids were a little older.
When they were young, I wasworking at the attorney
general's office with a salarypart-time for many years and
(47:07):
then I don't believe that Icould do what I do now with
young children.
I had to wait for them to bemore independent because it's so
intense.
I'm working pretty much everyday, and sometimes nights,
sometimes weekends.
It would be hard to have youngkids doing this honestly, but
(47:30):
they always know I think theyreally.
We don't ever really talk aboutthis, but I feel like I'm a
good role model and that I standup for what I believe in, and I
imagine it does have an impacton my kids that they see don't
be afraid to fight for what'sright, and they've seen that
I've suffered consequences fromit, meaning unfair consequences.
Personally, I've had someexperiences with some judges
(47:53):
when I'm doing my job.
They don't like the way I'mspeaking or advocating that they
done some things, said somethings to me that have been
inappropriate, but they knowthat their mother is doing
something she believes is goodfor her clients and good for the
world and I hope I leave thatlegacy for them just like my
(48:14):
father leaves for me, yeahthat's great and I don't want to
gloss over what you just said.
Jason (48:19):
So you're going in and you're going in front of a judge
and if you're at work andyou're talking to a boss and
they chew you out, it can beupsetting weight to a judge
coming at you for something thatI'm assuming you're going in
(48:40):
doing the best you can for thejob that you're trying to do in
the moment and then to have totake that on in addition must
feel like an additionalinjustice.
Laurie (48:48):
It does.
I practice not only inPhiladelphia but in the suburbs.
In one of the suburbs where Ipractice, which is where I
practice a lot, it seems thateveryone in the county is like
friendly with each other.
When they and some of thedefense attorneys forget that
they're supposed to be anadvocate for their clients, not
friendly with the DA or thejudge.
I mean, you can be, but yourprimary job is to be an advocate
and I've gotten a lot of badresponses from DAs and judges,
(49:14):
both like really inappropriateresponses.
One of them didn't like the wayI was speaking.
Quiet down, settle down, loweryour voice.
This is a male, older male,white judge Shocker.
Amber (49:28):
Yeah, that was my impression.
I was thinking this wasdefinitely a white man.
Laurie (49:33):
The first time I didn't know what to say and then I
started saying I'm not going toquiet down, this is my job, I am
an advocate for my client and Iwill continue to speak.
As I'm speaking Something tothat effect he quieted down, but
he always had it out for me,that judge, and didn't treat me
very well or my clients verywell, and I always thought they
(49:55):
were retaliating against me forjust doing my job.
Jason (49:59):
That takes guts to do.
So good for you, right?
I mean, I'm sure, like you saidthe first time it happened,
it's got to be that shocking,but to be able to stand there
and say I'm confident enough inwho I am and what I'm doing.
So quiet down yourself, right,like no.
Amber (50:17):
Back at you what I want to know.
Because you've been practicinglaw for a long time right 37
years I cannot imagine, as awoman attorney, that this has
not been the story since thebeginning.
What is your response to that?
Laurie (50:39):
We'll be honest In the criminal defense field, when I
come into court I look aroundand there are in the private
sector, meaning privateattorneys such as myself.
There are very few women thatdo what I do.
More of them would be DAs orpublic defenders, where they
have salaries.
It has been a tough road,especially like the male judge I
(51:02):
just told you about was someoneI'm remembering and it's been
other ones too on the journey.
I'm just rememberingspecifically because it was so
blatant and then I was proud ofmyself and the way I learned to
handle him and it made me feelso good, because when someone
says something that you're notexpecting, sometimes you don't
know what to say back.
But he did it to me three orfour times and after the first
(51:26):
or second time I just stoodright up proudly and it made me
feel like great, like that was agood, perfectly respectful
response that he was out of lineand he shouldn't tell me to
quiet down, because every it wasjust when I raised my voice and
I was arguing for my client,like why would I quiet down?
(51:46):
I'm just being an advocate andif I was a man, I it would be
completely fine, exactly.
I would be passionate, not loud.
Amber (51:54):
Exactly Right, yes, yes, exactly, I totally felt that you
would be passionate not loud,exactly Right.
Jason (52:04):
Yes, yes, all right, that's great.
So we're getting towards theend of our time.
I want to make sure we cover afew things before we finish.
You talked about sharing yourknowledge with others through
your writing.
Right, and what that triggeredfor me was that you should be
out there training people andsharing your expertise.
As you talked about being awoman attorney and forging that
(52:25):
path, because there's a lot offemale attorneys now right in
the world that could learn fromyour experience.
What are the different waysthat people can learn from you,
Laurie Jubelirer?
Of the different ways thatpeople can learn from you.
Laurie (52:40):
Laurie Jubelirer right today.
How do they access yourwritings?
I just started a column withour legal intelligence, a
quarterly column that I write.
It's called In Pursuit ofJustice, and so it's different.
One of them was about, like, aclient who has mental health
issues in the system people withmental health issues.
One of them had to do with theprison, like I said, about
(53:00):
comparing Scandinavian prisonsto our prisons, all things in
the criminal justice system.
I always repost it in like mysocial media.
I want to keep trying to findopportunities, such as today
with podcasts.
One of my also goals and plansis to start my own podcast and
I'm going to need some helpbecause of my time and there's a
(53:22):
college student that's going tostart working with me next
month, so I'm hoping that shecan help me get it off the
ground and take charge of it andjust telling clients stories,
and that's one of my goals.
And then another goal from thatwould be to write a book about
it and then really, just as muchas I can at least today we have
social media just get it outthere as much as I can and I
(53:44):
really think I need to get it tothe legislators in our state,
because that's who needs to makechange and be aware of the laws
that they pass and the impactthat it has.
So that's one of the things Iwant to be able to do in my
future time.
Amber (53:58):
So I love all of those things that sounds so exciting
and I am looking forward tohearing about, particularly the
podcast.
We're podcast people, we loveto support and uplift other
podcasters and, of course,people who've been been impacted
.
One of the things that comes tomind to me that is one of the
(54:19):
often used techniques andadvocacy organizations is
working with people who areincarcerated, provide them with
opportunities or people inre-entry.
Provide them with opportunitiesto have a platform to have
their stories told tolegislators.
So, for instance, inConnecticut there's a wonderful
organization called StopSolitary and they worked with
(54:43):
interns and attorneys to go intoprisons and talk to people
about something pertaining to aparticular legislation and then
had people go to the legislatureand read those stories.
So that's one way that might bepretty accessible and a great
way that you might be able toget involved with some advocacy
organizations that could helpuplift what's happening to your
(55:04):
client.
Laurie (55:05):
I love that.
I love that idea.
It's great.
Jason (55:08):
That's what we need to do.
Amber, do you want to ask yourlast question?
Amber (55:12):
Yes, Laurie, I usually ask a similar last question,
just like Jason asked our firstquestion, and it is if you had
one piece of advice for someonewho was on a similar journey to
your own, what would it be?
Laurie (55:33):
Take a risk, be true to yourself, follow your heart and
do something meaningful and makea difference.
Don't be afraid.
When I first started in 2013, Ihad no clients, nothing.
It was scary that I persistedand I did it, and the feeling
that I have now of what I'veaccomplished and what I will
continue to accomplish iswonderful.
(55:54):
And I just would say to someonedo meaningful work and enjoy
what you do and make adifference.
Amber (56:02):
I love that.
Thank you so much, Laurie.
Wow, mic drop.
Jason (56:09):
Yeah, there's not much more to say other than thank you
so much for being with us todayand sharing parts of your
journey.
I'm sure, as we had talkedabout before, we even spoke here
on the podcast is you know, wecould probably spend a month
talking about your experiencesand comparing to some of the
stuff that we've both beenthrough, and so it's great.
(56:31):
Maybe when you have yourpodcast, you can have us on
yours, and that'd be amazing.
And thank you for being here.
Laurie (56:38):
Thank you so much, I really enjoyed our conversation.
Jason (56:43):
Until next time Amber.
Amber (56:44):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (56:48):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences
(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.
Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.
Amber (00:40):
Good morning Jason.
Jason (00:42):
Amber.
Today we have Laurie Jubelirer.
Good morning Laurie.
Good morning to you both.
Amber (00:50):
Good morning.
Laurie (00:50):
Really Glad to be here.
Jason (00:53):
And Laurie, for the listeners just share that I've
known you for a very long time,so this is a treat to have you
as a guest and thank you forbeing here.
And I will start with the samefirst question we always ask,
which is could you tell us alittle bit about your life
before entering the criminallegal system and what brought
(01:14):
you into it?
Laurie (01:16):
My father was a politician and a senator for 32
years, so that started when Iwas 11 years old.
His campaigns.
My grandfather was a judge.
My uncle was a lawyer, so Igrew up with it and with
politics and trying to helppeople and do community service,
good things for the community.
(01:37):
When I was young and wheneversomeone asked me what do I want
to do, I always thought it waseither a teacher or a lawyer.
I wanted to teach and impactpeople and help, and then the
lawyer was.
I think it's innate inside methat I wanted to help people and
my father always says the threeimportant words are make a
(01:59):
difference.
And that impacted me a lot andthat's what I do and that's what
gives me a lot of joy andsatisfaction.
Jason (02:07):
Awesome, so you had an idea of what you were getting
into.
So you ended up going to lawschool and you fulfilled your
dream.
Laurie (02:16):
I did when I went to law school.
I picked Temple Universityprimarily because I loved the
idea of being a trial lawyer, alitigator, and they were known
for that to teach us how to trycases to litigate.
I was on the moot court and themock trial team and had a lot
of professors who taught me howto try a case, like practical
(02:41):
experiences, and I also got anLLM, which is an advanced degree
in trial advocacy.
After that, in 1995, like aboutfive or about eight years after
I graduated law school, Awesome.
Amber (02:54):
And so, Lauri, where are you from?
Like what area of?
Laurie (02:56):
the country I'm originally from, altoona,
pennsylvania, which is in themiddle of the state of
Pennsylvania.
I would say it's a rural areaand when I was growing up at
some point perhaps it was inhigh school I decided I really
wanted to leave and be in ornear a city and that's why I
(03:17):
chose the University ofPennsylvania for college because
it had a beautiful campus andit was in a city and I wanted
more diversity and culture,different kinds of people and
experiences, and that's why Ileft and I didn't like the
feeling of when I grew up thatpeople were much the same and
didn't understand people thatwere different from them, and I
(03:39):
didn't want my children to growup in that kind of atmosphere.
So I stayed in Philadelphiaonce I went to college.
I've stayed here.
I've been here ever since.
Amber (03:49):
All right In the big PA up there.
Jason (03:51):
Mm-hmm, so where did your career take, you?
Laurie (03:57):
During law school I had an experience in the
Philadelphia District Attorney'sOffice, which was my dream job
back then.
I loved being in court, I loveprosecuting and at that point it
was seeking justice and doinggood for the people in the
Commonwealth.
And so the summer experienceafter my second year of law
school I got to go in court andactually try and handle cases
(04:19):
under supervision.
But I handled them and I hadvictims and witnesses and judges
and in the court like almostevery day and I and that and
then I applied to have that jobafter that experience and I was
accepted in my third year of lawschool.
So that was my very first legaljob and it was a wonderful
experience.
Amber (04:38):
And so what was it about that particular experience?
Was it sort of about thatparticular experience?
Was it sort of delving into thelaw, understanding what, what
was?
Laurie (04:53):
it.
Exactly that made you reallylike, excited about being in
court.
A lot of my colleagues in lawschool they got jobs where they
would do research, writing andnot get to have have direct
experience legal experience,litigation experience and I was
thrown and put in the courtroomright away and I love that.
I love doing it and it taughtme how to be comfortable trying
(05:14):
cases.
A lot of lawyers are afraid totry cases and that made me
comfortable thinking on my feet,fighting, arguing on my feet.
So I love that and I wanted tocontinue that and I was really
grateful that I was able tosecure my first lawyer job there
.
Jason (05:33):
How similar is it to what we see?
I mean, there are a million TVshows and movies that show
lawyers trying cases.
Are there any that stand out asthe most realistic or is
completely different from whatwe see?
Laurie (05:47):
Yes, the TV shows make it seem somebody will confess on
the stand, for example, or sayyou know, like, for example,
someone who's the accused, thedefendant, in a criminal case.
It makes it look so much easier, like the evidence is so strong
and then they'll confess, or oncross-examination, something
(06:08):
big will turn up.
And it's not like that inreality.
It's more complicated andcomplex and sometimes you have
witnesses, that recant forexample, and you have to figure
out well, what do I do?
And I have to introduce theirprior statement, and things get
a little messy and complicated.
But TV makes it look mucheasier and it's not that way.
Jason (06:30):
Did you always feel like you were on the right side of
justice and you were out theredoing great work for humanity?
Laurie (06:40):
I did at the time that I was in the district attorney's
office.
But I can say with confidencethat I feel more so now as a
defense attorney like way moreso that I'm on the right side of
justice because I see a lotgoing on and my clients are
human beings.
Now At the DA's office it wasthe Commonwealth and that's yes.
(07:00):
It's the victim in a sense, butthey're not my client.
My client's not the victim,it's the commonwealth, the
people.
Now I have human clients and Ifeel exactly like a passion
making a difference more on thisside.
Jason (07:16):
So we'll get into that a little bit, but could you tell
us about your journey, like whatwas the transformation for you
that said, here I am as aprosecutor, I'm doing this work,
but I really want to be on thedefense side, like what happened
?
Was there a moment?
Laurie (07:34):
I would say not a moment , but a number of experiences
along my journey journey.
I was in the districtattorney's office for eight
years and then a lot of us feellike, well, if you're not going
(07:55):
to be there for a careerposition, then let's move on to
do something else.
And I had a few jobs in betweenthe district attorney's office
and opening my own practice.
The district attorney's officeand opening my own practice and,
honestly, I was never reallycompletely happy and satisfied
with what I was doing.
I did some civil work as anemployment lawyer of plaintiffs.
I did some.
(08:16):
And then I worked in theattorney general's office, for
many years actually, but again,that was it was civil work, and
my clients again weren't humanbeings, they were in litigation.
I represented state employees Iguess they wereDOT, which is
the Department of Transportationoh, someone had an accident on
(08:50):
a pothole.
So it didn't satisfy me as muchas what I do now.
And then, while I was there, Ikept dreaming about opening my
own practice and thinking thatthis is what I wanted to do, and
it took some time, but I had itin my head.
When I turned 50, which was in2012, I think that I was going
(09:14):
to open my own practice and Iactually did in 20, right around
, right after I turned 50 or 51in 2013.
And I did it with no clientsand it was very hard in the
beginning, but now I'm justexactly where I would have
dreamed to be.
So Laurie, I have a questionfor you, Something that you
(09:36):
mentioned really sort of spurreda lot of the things that we
talk about when we talk aboutthe system itself and how it
serves humanity and human beingsand justice.
Right, I heard you say I wasrepresenting the state, I was
not representing the victims, orthe victims were not my client,
(09:57):
and so, just for background, wetalked to a lot of different
people on this podcast and Imyself am a crime survivor.
I have a family member who wentthrough the system and had the
prosecutor say multiple timesI'm not your lawyer.
Did you see how that frameworkmight be harmful to victims?
(10:22):
Did that occur to you in themoment?
Yes, For example I'll give an example a domestic
violence case.
Let's say the victim andoftentimes the victims were
women.
Let's say the victim changedher mind and things got better
and they decided you know what?
(10:42):
I don't want to prosecute.
We have children together.
I don't want my significantother going to jail.
I'm comfortable, you know, inthe moment I called the police
but I don't want to prosecuteanymore.
And then the DA's office islike it's not your choice, we're
the Commonwealth, we're goingto call you to testify, whether
you like it or not and I don'tknow if the right word is, but I
(11:04):
didn't like that experience andit didn't seem that that was
justice.
Maybe there was some othersolution that was better for
both sides, all sides.
And that's an example where thevictim's not feeling like
they're being forced andcompelled to come to court on
behalf of the Commonwealth, butit's not their choice.
Jason (11:24):
So you had to move forward.
You know as a person in thatrole you had to do your job but
you didn't feel good about itsounds like.
Laurie (11:32):
It was really challenging.
Now, sometimes I understoodthat people were, for example,
in a very like a seriousshooting case for example.
People were scared.
They thought, oh my God, if Icome in and testify I'm going to
get retaliated against.
So I understood that and thosecases you kind of felt like,
okay, I have to do the rightthings.
(11:52):
I really believe, with all theevidence here, that this
defendant is the shooter and Ihave to bring in this witness,
even though they'reuncomfortable and even though
they're recanting.
But in some other types ofcases, like I just said, with
domestic cases, family cases,close relationship cases, the
victim should have more of a sayin the solution and resolution
(12:16):
in those cases.
Jason (12:17):
It sounds to me like it didn't just happen one time this
happened.
It was systemic.
Laurie (12:24):
Correct, it was very systemic.
Amber (12:28):
It seems like this was a number of years ago and you've
made different changes andwhatnot.
Was there any talk at that timearound restorative practices,
restorative justice?
Is that something that you'refamiliar with for those cases?
Laurie (12:44):
Very good question.
Back then, when I was a DA inthe 80s and 90s, it was all
about prosecution, punishmentand winning.
Now, in the 2020s, it's verydifferent.
The Philadelphia districtattorney his name is Larry
(13:04):
Krasner is all about restorativejustice, justice, what's the
right thing.
It's not prosecute, punish, win.
It's doing the best thing forthe community, for the defendant
, for the victim, like the rightthing, and the right thing can
vary from case to case.
But back then, I just want tosay in the 80s, 90s, 70s and I'm
(13:29):
doing a lot of post-convictionwork now I'm learning that the
detectives, especially inPhiladelphia, and the police,
all they wanted to do was win,and they would bring in people
from the streets and threatenthem and do bad things to them
in order to get them to say, topoint the finger at the
defendant that was accused justbecause they thought he was
(13:52):
guilty or she.
And then now in mypost-conviction work, I'm seeing
the bad results of peoplespending decades in prison who
are innocent and finding the DAhas an open file policy.
So we're finding new evidenceto show they in fact were
wrongfully convicted or theyshould be exonerated, and it's
rampant.
I can't believe what I'mfinding and seeing, but it gives
(14:16):
me a lot of pleasure to be ableto do this kind of work to turn
things around for them.
Amber (14:21):
Yeah, that is amazing, and I think that one of the
other things that we experiencedand I know I've experienced in
my own experiences is this ideaof budgets being very different
in terms of defense budgets andthe, you know, prosecutor's
(14:45):
office.
Is that something that you wereaware of or have ever really
thought about?
Laurie (14:51):
I have been aware of it that the DA's office salaries
for example, the assistantdistrict attorneys, are earning
more than the public defenders,have more resources, have more
budget is higher and so it'smore challenging.
The defender's office, thepublic defender's offices, have
had a lot of financialchallenges because of it, and
(15:13):
their work is just as important.
It should be equal, butoftentimes I'm aware it might
have changed up to now, but inthe past it's been very
different and it's not fair now,but in the past it's been very
different and it's not fair.
Amber (15:31):
So, Laurie, when you think about different things,
that you experiences orparticular cases, we understand
that, like you can't talk verysuper specifics, but was there
anything that really stood outto you and you think about?
And I know Jason mentioned youknow what was your turning point
and it sounds like it was kindof a slow burn, but are there a
case or two that really pulledat your heartstrings?
Laurie (15:54):
there's so many.
I'll tell you some of them thatare pulling at my heartstrings
now is the medical treatment inthe prisons.
It's awful beyond words.
An example one of my clientswas having a stroke and he
(16:18):
yelled out for help to thecorrections officer.
I think he eventually did go tothe medical department but they
turned him away, sent him backto his cell.
He ended up being like, I mean,he had multiple strokes and he
ended up being paralyzed or onone of his sides and the rehab
has been unbelievable.
(16:38):
This is an example among somany.
And so he has had to sufferunnecessarily because the
medical people are the worst ofthe worst.
They're all about saving money,they're not about helping
people and they torture peoplehonestly because somebody will
complain and they'll delay anddelay and delay and delay and
(16:59):
then their situation's worse, somuch worse.
And I do those kinds of lawsuitsthat are civil rights lawsuits
and unfortunately it feels likeI file them and I litigate them,
but it doesn't seem to bemaking it.
I wish it would be making adifference, and that's what one
of the things I want to figureout.
How can I do that?
(17:19):
And that's one of the things Iwant to tell my clients stories
and let people hear thesuffering and maybe that will
help.
But another example a clientwho was disabled was transported
to, I think, from one prison toanother and he needed to be
strapped in and put in awheelchair in a handicapped
(17:41):
accessible van.
And he wasn't and they threwhim to the, put him on the
ground for two hours rollingaround in the van like they
these people have no hearts andthen he got very badly hurt.
That's another client of mineand he has a lawsuit.
So I learn over and over fromthe phone calls and the
(18:04):
communications with theseclients about the corrections
officers are mean and nasty andinhumane and like torturers.
They don't care about thepeople in the prison, they care
about their paycheck.
And the same with the medicalpeople.
It's both.
And those cases I hear over andover and most of them all of
(18:27):
them are in Pennsylvania Countyand state prisons and I want to
be able to keep telling thesestories because it needs to
change.
And people don't get any better, they get worse because they're
tortured in there.
They're not rehabilitated orthey're not correctional
facilities, they're I don't evenknow what to call them, they're
just places of torture.
Jason (18:48):
You know, it's interesting to me because when I
pay attention to the storiesthat come out about prisons,
it's usually the stories thattend to bubble up to the
national level seem to be in theSouth, and Pennsylvania is not
(19:11):
a state that I would think aboutas like this is a horrible
place to go if you'reincarcerated and you're painting
a very different picture.
Laurie (19:22):
There are some prisons that are better than others.
Picture, there are some prisonsthat are better than others,
but for the most part, like theone that's in my area is known
for, I'm hearing over and overand over about clients that are
being abused, neglected.
There's one prison in the areaI don't know if you're familiar
with the Scandinavian system,but there's SCI, which means
(19:43):
State Correctional Institution,at Chester has a portion of that
prison that's called LittleScandinavia and they're doing a
lot of good and that needs to beexpanded, and I believe that
their intentions are to expandit.
So I have a little bit of hopethat things are going to get
better for some not all, but theScandinavian system for those
who don't know is more humane.
(20:04):
The guards and the people are onan equal level.
How can I help you?
They're more about helping,treating, supporting, educating.
They give them more freedom,their selves.
I think.
They have a kitchen, they maketheir own meals, they work.
They feel more pride in theirlives and they're not being
punished necessarily.
(20:24):
Yes, they feel more pride intheir lives and they're not
being punished necessarily.
Yes, they are because they'rein jail, but they're getting
better, they're beingrehabilitated, they're being
treated like humans and I have alittle bit of hope that things
will change, but it's going totake a lot of work and things in
many Pennsylvania prisons arebad.
Jason (20:41):
Jason, like you said, yeah, that's what I was going to
say.
They treat them like they'rehuman beings, right, like
they're worthy of any type ofdignity whatsoever.
Wow, that's, that's cool.
Laurie (20:52):
I know that's more rare and you get like, oh my God,
like really Like wow, yeah, it'susually the opposite.
So when things something goesright which I don't usually hear
about those because people arecalling me for help, but it's
still a pleasure to hear aboutsome positive experience in a
prison that made someone better.
Amber (21:12):
I mean, I think what I'm hearing from you is all centered
in humanity.
Even like, from the beginning,right, it was like I wanted to
help people and you know I hadthis opportunity.
And then you went, you saw, youdid right and in the way that
you were able to, in that momentyou were helping people because
it was about justice, right.
(21:33):
And then, as things went on,you saw some different things
about the health care.
I think one of the things thatunfortunately happens again,
taking away the individuals whowork in the system, who have
(21:54):
been put into a culture that isa culture of dehumanization,
right.
So the corrections officersmaybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I
don't believe that, by and large, most people start out wanting
to go in and torture people.
I think a lot of police officersgo into service for some of the
(22:15):
same reasons that, like you,became a prosecutor, like people
I'm not saying all there aresome that in every profession,
people go in for the wrongreasons.
There are some that in everyprofession, people go in for the
wrong reasons.
But then, when you're there andwe've talked to mental health
professionals who are working inthe system that are like, I
thought I was going to change itfrom the inside out or things
(22:36):
like that.
I think one of the issues, ortwo issues, is what I tend to
see and I want to ask youropinion on.
One is the culture that ishappening inside prisons, and
two is this idea that we areputting people in permanent
residential living situationswithout providing them with
(22:59):
permanent preventative care,health care that is actual
health care.
We're basically putting them inthis long-term situation, but
giving them acute care it's likeokay, rub some ibuprofen on it,
your arm is off, you'rebleeding out, here's your
ibuprofen.
(23:19):
So, what are your thoughts onthose concepts?
Laurie (23:23):
It's true, I hear about people with very major things,
major health things going on.
I had a client with.
He finally was diagnosed withCrohn's disease but he was his
pain and his stomach and hislike years of suffering.
Like you say, like here, takeTums or whatever, but it took
(23:46):
years and years.
They're trying to save money.
Honestly, a lot of the problemsare due to greed, economics.
People are making money fromthe system so it's good to have
the more people in there becauseyou have the commissary, the
(24:08):
GTL, which is the communications.
All these people are makingmoney.
Prisons in the rural areas,giving people jobs it's a lot of
that.
In terms of the medical care,yes, they'll try to do
everything they can to give theibuprofen or the little rubbing
alcohol, whatever the neosporin,and then after, like major,
(24:30):
major delays, when things are somuch worse, then they'll take
them to the outside specialistor hospital.
But I hear what you're sayingand I agree with you that it's
not a correctional system.
It's not helping people ingeneral.
There may be exceptions, butit's making them worse.
They're desperate.
(24:50):
Sometimes I'll literally have aconversation with someone and
I'll make them feel betterbecause I'm a compassionate,
caring person and I just spent20 minutes with them on the
phone and they're like I feel somuch better.
So they're having oppositeexperiences there, where they're
demeaned and put down andtreated like worse than animals.
It's hard for me to understandhow one human can treat another
(25:11):
as I've seen.
Amber (25:13):
Great, yeah, and I think one of the things that I'm
hearing you saying is, again,we're going back to that idea of
humanity and in that, I thinkwhat we do is we isolate and we
shame.
And one of the best things thatwe can do is have conversations
(25:35):
with people like yourself andbe in proximity to people who
have had these experiencesBecause, truth be told, before I
knew what I knew, I didn't knowit and I thought everything was
fair and like you saw on TV andinnocent till proven guilty and
all of those things.
What is your thoughts on that?
Laurie (25:56):
That's I agree with you and that's one of the reasons
why I do a lot of writing and Iwant to create awareness and,
hopefully, some change.
I feel like I might need towrite a book and give it to the
legislators and governors ofstories of all these clients and
let them see where our taxmoney is going.
It's, it's not.
And if it were any otherbusiness or company, if all this
(26:17):
money's going, and if it wereany other business or company,
if all this money were going tothis business or company and it
wasn't working, why would youkeep doing it the same way?
Well, guess what, in the systemof the government and the
prisons it's not helping, it'smaking people worse, but yet
it's costing we taxpayers a lotof money, millions and millions
(26:38):
and millions.
Like why is that?
It makes no sense.
But you see the politicians onTV thinking look at this weak DA
, mr Krasner, for example, likehe's making more crime.
In reality, actually, he'sactually making crime less
because he's thinking about whatthe best solution is for each
(27:00):
case and doing the right thingand making them yeah a better
result you're.
Jason (27:05):
You're tapping into that same idea that you know it's.
Everybody measures theabsolutes in the media, right
like there was this one personthat went out and did this bad
thing.
So the whole thing that thisprogressive person can't be
doing the right stuff becausethey allowed this one bad thing
to happen.
However, before there were 10bad things that were happening
(27:27):
and now there's one, so you'vegot to look at it at a relative
basis.
Has this policy made thingsworse or better?
And we tend to look at theabsolutes, because you're never
going to make crime go entirelyaway tend to look at the
absolutes, because you're nevergoing to make crime go entirely
away.
Amber (27:46):
Correct yeah, correct yeah.
And people talk a lot aboutlike risk and things like this,
as if A you can completelymeasure risk or tell the future
as much as we just really wantto.
Right, we all want to have acrystal ball.
Humans are complex, so thisidea that we know what's going
to happen based on the past andflattening people into their
past is probably not the bestway to go about things.
(28:07):
Laurie, I want to ask you aboutpersonal impact.
You know, over the years, thework that you've done, either
celebrations, right of work andfulfillment, or days where you
felt am I doing the right thing.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Laurie (28:31):
I know inside me I feel like I always, every day, feel
like I'm doing the right thing.
And the right thing varies fromcase to case and person to
person.
Sometimes the right thing isnegotiating a plea of somebody
who get a lot, something worsethan what I'm trying to do for
them.
That's sometimes justice inthat case, and then other times
(28:55):
it's fighting until the endbecause you believe your
client's innocent and didn't doanything wrong and and fight,
fight, fight, fight.
And people often ask me, likehow can you do what you do if
you think someone's guilty?
I'm like that's not how I thinkat all.
I just think everyone has theright to a lawyer, everyone has
the right to a defense and thankgoodness for the constitution
and that's whatever.
You, anyone in your family orloved one and you'd want them to
(29:18):
have the right to a lawyer andthe best result.
So, personally, I've had my ownpractice for the last 12 years.
I've never.
I love, love, love, what I doand I love the impact that I
have on all my clients becauseeven if there's a bad outcome,
they're generally very gratefulthat they had a good advocate.
(29:41):
So that makes me feel very,very personally fulfilled, and
more so than anything that I'veever done before.
Amber (29:52):
That's amazing and I can only imagine, over the course of
12 years of working withclients in that capacity, how
many lives that you've touched.
I have to say I do remember, inmy interactions with the system
, finding someone who gave someglimmer of compassion in any
(30:15):
given moment.
So, whether it was going to aprison and having one person
treat you like a human becauseeven as a visitor right, people
are not that nice felt like Iwas being shaken down and
(30:41):
whatever.
And I remember, in particular,one corrections officer that
showed me some small inkling ofcompassion during this process,
tried to make a little joke,whatever, try to make it a
little bit like we weren't doingwhat we were doing, and that
really went a long way, right.
So I think that cannot beoverstated that compassion, no
(31:06):
matter where you fall out in thesystem, is imperative.
So thank you for doing that100%.
Laurie (31:14):
It makes people better themselves, even if you have
somebody on their side who seesthem as a human.
But if it's the opposite, thesystem is going to fail.
So I very much agree with you.
Jason (31:28):
So, as an attorney who's watching the news and you see
things happening where peopleare snatched off the street
without due process and thingslike that, how are you reacting
to what you're seeing in realtime?
Laurie (31:48):
My heart hurts so much.
I just wrote something aboutthis and I posted it on Facebook
and LinkedIn because it's sodisturbing.
The gentleman his name is MrGarcia, in Maryland is the
example.
I see all that I do for myclients and I see that we get
court hearings and we get dueprocess, even if I don't agree
(32:12):
with the result.
I'm getting a hearing.
I'm getting to say, getting toadvocate for their client.
The judge is making a decision.
That's called due process andthe idea that our country can
just take someone becausethey're an alleged immigrant and
not even somebody with anecessarily with a criminal
(32:32):
history, without any going infront of any judge, is
absolutely outrageous and Ibeyond words that I can say and
I feel.
And then I recently saw twojudges that were arrested within
the last couple of days forallegedly quote hiding an
immigrant or something.
I'm outraged beyond words and Ihope and pray that we have
(32:59):
people in our country thatcontinue to fight back against
this.
It's wrong, it's against ourconstitution.
One of the basic tenets of ourconstitution is due process.
We can't just say, oh you have,I don't like the color of your
skin, I don't like where youwere born, I don't like your
religion, exists.
Therefore, you don't belonghere without a hearing, without
(33:22):
approving anything that theyjustifying their deportation.
I've had clients who are from,not from this country, who are
undocumented, accused of crimes,but they've had their hearings,
they've, and if they've beenfound guilty, they serve their
time and then they get deported.
After seeing an immigrationjudge, it's all proper.
(33:45):
I've never, ever, seen anythinglike this and it's frightening
to me.
It's frightening I, we, we liveby our constitution and our
three branches of government andit's not happening and it's
very disturbing.
Jason (34:02):
I mean, amber, to hear Laurie say that, you know like I
have my feelings about it.
But to hear it from somebodywho's been studied the law, been
in the law, you know yeah.
Amber (34:12):
I mean, I think you're exactly right, and it makes me
think about something.
Actually, one of our previousguests said that I just felt was
so profound what we accept forothers, we must also be willing
to accept for ourselves.
Right, and so people who havenot really had to think about it
(34:34):
or been touched by injustice orwhatever touched by injustice
or whatever come in contact withthe system, think, well, okay,
if that person, who was acriminal gang member, didn't
have due process, good riddance,right Again.
But who was it that said thatthey're a criminal gang member?
(34:54):
What was the evidence that theywere a criminal?
So this means, okay, I'm walkingdown the street and somebody
walks up to me and says Amber,you're a criminal gang member,
get in this van.
Oh, you don't want to get inthe van, I'm going to snatch you
and put you in this van and youknow what?
I'm sending you to an ElSalvadorian prison.
(35:14):
And I might say I'm not in acriminal gang.
What are you talking about?
I'm from Connecticut, you know,like whatever, guess what.
There's nothing that anybodycan do without due process.
So I think people reallycritically need to think about
that, regardless of whether, ifit can be weaponized against
people that you hate, it can beweaponized against you if the
(35:39):
conditions were different.
Period, end of story.
Laurie (35:42):
Injustice for them is injustice for all of us.
That's right.
It could be us next.
They don't like my tattoo?
Right, we need to.
Every one of these are humanbeings.
And the other scary thing is,once they're in the El Salvador
prison, they don't get the samerights that we have in our
(36:05):
prisons.
In our prisons, we still havethe Constitution.
If we're tortured, abused,neglected, once you leave the
country, you don't have thatanymore.
It's awful, and who knows howlong they're going to be there.
They're not going to see ajudge.
Amber (36:31):
They're just.
It's frightening.
I am very encouraged by theamount of people who are in the
streets doing what they can doin whatever area of influence.
Lawyers like yourself sayingthe things that you're saying,
(36:59):
writing things on the Internet,writing op eds you know
different organizations in courtfighting these things.
I am feeling hopeful that wewill hold the line.
It does feel very terrifying,but I'm feeling very hopeful
because of the amount of peoplethat I have talked to, seen,
been in interaction with, thatare like wait a minute, this is
not what we do.
This is not America.
Jason (37:24):
Yeah, and the other thing, Laurie, you know we talk
to people, amber and I talk topeople who have criminal records
, all you know, all the time,and we talk with people and a
lot of the people have sexconvictions.
So, when there's suchinflammatory talk about what are
we going to do with thesepeople, right, and these
criminals and these people whohave done these things and the
thought that they're going toexpand it and there are people,
(37:48):
even it's one thing you'retalking about people who are
from other countries, which is,I think, is horrible, but then
you're talking about Americancitizens potentially being
rounded up in the same way.
We are in very dangerous times.
Amber (38:03):
I agree and I mean, I think it's all and I think you
said it, jason it's all bad,like if you are a human and
you're being treated in this way, regardless of your immigration
status, regardless of yourcitizenship, regardless of
whatever.
This is not the way that ourConstitution allows people to be
(38:24):
treated.
This is not the fabric ofAmerica and it's very scary, and
I think that a lot of peopleleft and right are realizing
this.
Jason (38:36):
Which is good, because I think there has to be such a
strong reaction that says thisis not okay, because you've kind
of flipped the switch that saysit is okay and a lot of people
are out there like cheering iton.
So it's not like everybody'scheering it on, but there's
still 20, 30% of the countrythat thinks this is okay and
(38:56):
that's not OK.
Laurie (38:58):
It's not the United States of America, it's not who
we have always been.
Amber (39:03):
If we were on the outside looking into another country,
we would be accusing them ofhuman rights violations, war
crimes and, to be fair, I needto say out loud this is very,
very visible.
Out loud, this is very, veryvisible and people are like,
(39:24):
whoa, this is horrible, but thishas been happening in our
country to certain populationsforever and ever and ever.
And so, on one hand, whilepeople are saying this is
horrible, this is injustice,people aren't getting due
process, people are beingtreated unfairly.
Let's not pretend.
This is a good opportunity todiscuss things like.
(39:45):
You mentioned, this idea thatpeople aren't getting health
care, they're not getting dueprocess in rural, no mechanism
(40:11):
to speak out and no one to share.
What's happening then?
What's to stop it?
You have no voting rights.
Who's going to stop it?
Laurie (40:21):
That's what I always say .
It's behind closed doors.
No one sees what's going on inthe prisons, for example, and
their voices aren't being heard.
So it's important, that's mypassion, and what I do is let
their voices be heard.
I want people to know what'sgoing on and, like I said, I
hope that it will bring aboutsome change at some point.
(40:43):
But it seems that people onlyget upset when it's them and
their loved one.
Oh, now I understand, but if itdoesn't have anything to do
with them, they seem like yousay, amber, not to care.
Jason (40:53):
Do you think the change that's required is incremental
or do you think it'stransformational?
Laurie (41:04):
I think, because we're going to have to do it one step
at a time.
I don't think it's going tohappen in a big way all at once.
I think we need to take littlesteps so people understand how
bad it is and that it's not okayto think that putting people in
prison is going to solve crime.
It's not, especially in prisonsthat make them worse.
It's not.
The money should be to helpthem.
Jason (41:25):
It's always funny when we talk about sentence lengths,
right?
So one person might say, oh,they only got five years
incarcerated, and my response isalways like could you try one
day incarcerated before you saythat only five, like it could
really have a negative impact onyour whole life versus being
something that's positive.
(41:45):
So what are your thoughts onsentence lengths?
Laurie (41:49):
Especially in Pennsylvania.
I can't speak for other states,but there used to be mandatory
sentences for certain things.
A lot of them have beeneliminated, but one of the
things I'll give you an examplein Pennsylvania, and I'm hoping
that it will change is calledfelony murder and life sentences
(42:09):
.
Felony murder means if you andyour friend, you and your cohort
, go and decide you're going tocommit a robbery or steal
something or anything and thefriend, having nothing to do
with you, ends up killing thembecause you were involved in the
felony, I guess, the robbery.
You went to steal somethingfrom someone and you had no idea
(42:31):
the friend was going to killthem.
You could be found guilty offelony murder and in
Pennsylvania right now as wespeak, it's a life sentence and
I have a lot of clients thathave been in for decades for
things that happened when theywere kids, like 19 years old.
They were adults but they werekids.
(42:51):
The Supreme Court ofPennsylvania is currently
considering whether that lifesentence for felony murder is
unconstitutional meaning.
Is it cruel and unusualpunishment against the Eighth
Amendment, and I'm hoping,fingers crossed, that they
realize it is.
We call it death byincarceration.
These life sentences arehorrendous.
(43:13):
Many of my clients are nowolder and they need a lot of
medical care.
So our money's going there Low,low, low or no chance of
recidivism.
And they could do a lot of goodout here.
They could do a lot of goodwith the young people and the
young generation and try toguide and help them.
But I'm outraged by thesentences that I've seen and the
(43:35):
prosecutors who don't realize.
And the prosecutors who don'trealize like Jason says, five
years is a lot Like.
Some of these sentencingsituations are huge.
And Pennsylvania we haveguidelines and we're supposed to
go by the guidelines and wetalked about this earlier about,
oh, they're all about like, ifyou do this, then you get that,
so prediction that have nothingto do with each individual case.
(43:57):
If you have this, then you getthat, so you have to really
fight against that.
Jason (44:04):
I mean the whole concept of time when you're in the
legal system is crazy.
I know lawyers work nonstophours so they might lose track
of what an hour is like, but thecontinuances between when
you're arrested and finallyconvicted can be can feel like a
lifetime because you're in thatstate of limbo and then you
(44:26):
deal with it, whether it's theincarceration phase, the
probation or parole phase andsome type of supervision.
I mean it can take decades offof your life.
Amber (44:39):
I think the rigidity of the system tends to be very
incompatible with the complexityof humanity, right and so when
I think about I had a familymember who experienced senior
exploitation, and so the personwho committed this crime against
(44:59):
my family member, who I was thepower of attorney of, was being
held accountable in court, andI had to go to court many times.
It's in a different state thatI lived to the state to attend a
hearing that had been continuedand nobody told me.
(45:25):
It's awful awful, so I'm justsaying like, again, the rigidity
of the system or the way thatthey um, it's incompatible with
the way people live their reallives, right?
So I think that if we couldinfuse a little bit more
flexibility and humanity intothe system, then it might be
(45:47):
useful, and it sounds likeyou're doing that.
Laurie (45:50):
I agree, and the people that make the laws.
They don't have the same kindof experiences with the humans
that are affected by the lawsthat I do and others do.
So they don't know.
They just think that it's acertain way and if you do X,
then you get Y, and they don'tknow how they're affecting
people and what the people areexperiencing, because they've
(46:12):
never experienced, they've neverspoken with them.
Jason (46:16):
So let me ask, Laurie, you've been working in the field
a long time, first as aprosecutor, then on the defense
side doing your own practice.
You have a lot of experience.
You've talked about that today.
You were also raising a familywhile you were an attorney.
Did any of this come into yourhome life, how you were as a
(46:39):
mother, as a wife, you know,raising your family.
Was there any impact orspillover, or not really?
Laurie (46:47):
Well, my kids always knew that I was.
You know I was working and whatI did, and by the time that I
set out to start my own practice, my kids were a little older.
When they were young, I wasworking at the attorney
general's office with a salarypart-time for many years and
(47:07):
then I don't believe that Icould do what I do now with
young children.
I had to wait for them to bemore independent because it's so
intense.
I'm working pretty much everyday, and sometimes nights,
sometimes weekends.
It would be hard to have youngkids doing this honestly, but
(47:30):
they always know I think theyreally.
We don't ever really talk aboutthis, but I feel like I'm a
good role model and that I standup for what I believe in, and I
imagine it does have an impacton my kids that they see don't
be afraid to fight for what'sright, and they've seen that
I've suffered consequences fromit, meaning unfair consequences.
Personally, I've had someexperiences with some judges
(47:53):
when I'm doing my job.
They don't like the way I'mspeaking or advocating that they
done some things, said somethings to me that have been
inappropriate, but they knowthat their mother is doing
something she believes is goodfor her clients and good for the
world and I hope I leave thatlegacy for them just like my
(48:14):
father leaves for me, yeahthat's great and I don't want to
gloss over what you just said.
Jason (48:19):
So you're going in and you're going in front of a judge
and if you're at work andyou're talking to a boss and
they chew you out, it can beupsetting weight to a judge
coming at you for something thatI'm assuming you're going in
(48:40):
doing the best you can for thejob that you're trying to do in
the moment and then to have totake that on in addition must
feel like an additionalinjustice.
Laurie (48:48):
It does.
I practice not only inPhiladelphia but in the suburbs.
In one of the suburbs where Ipractice, which is where I
practice a lot, it seems thateveryone in the county is like
friendly with each other.
When they and some of thedefense attorneys forget that
they're supposed to be anadvocate for their clients, not
friendly with the DA or thejudge.
I mean, you can be, but yourprimary job is to be an advocate
and I've gotten a lot of badresponses from DAs and judges,
(49:14):
both like really inappropriateresponses.
One of them didn't like the wayI was speaking.
Quiet down, settle down, loweryour voice.
This is a male, older male,white judge Shocker.
Amber (49:28):
Yeah, that was my impression.
I was thinking this wasdefinitely a white man.
Laurie (49:33):
The first time I didn't know what to say and then I
started saying I'm not going toquiet down, this is my job, I am
an advocate for my client and Iwill continue to speak.
As I'm speaking Something tothat effect he quieted down, but
he always had it out for me,that judge, and didn't treat me
very well or my clients verywell, and I always thought they
(49:55):
were retaliating against me forjust doing my job.
Jason (49:59):
That takes guts to do.
So good for you, right?
I mean, I'm sure, like you saidthe first time it happened,
it's got to be that shocking,but to be able to stand there
and say I'm confident enough inwho I am and what I'm doing.
So quiet down yourself, right,like no.
Amber (50:17):
Back at you what I want to know.
Because you've been practicinglaw for a long time right 37
years I cannot imagine, as awoman attorney, that this has
not been the story since thebeginning.
What is your response to that?
Laurie (50:39):
We'll be honest In the criminal defense field, when I
come into court I look aroundand there are in the private
sector, meaning privateattorneys such as myself.
There are very few women thatdo what I do.
More of them would be DAs orpublic defenders, where they
have salaries.
It has been a tough road,especially like the male judge I
(51:02):
just told you about was someoneI'm remembering and it's been
other ones too on the journey.
I'm just rememberingspecifically because it was so
blatant and then I was proud ofmyself and the way I learned to
handle him and it made me feelso good, because when someone
says something that you're notexpecting, sometimes you don't
know what to say back.
But he did it to me three orfour times and after the first
(51:26):
or second time I just stoodright up proudly and it made me
feel like great, like that was agood, perfectly respectful
response that he was out of lineand he shouldn't tell me to
quiet down, because every it wasjust when I raised my voice and
I was arguing for my client,like why would I quiet down?
(51:46):
I'm just being an advocate andif I was a man, I it would be
completely fine, exactly.
I would be passionate, not loud.
Amber (51:54):
Exactly Right, yes, yes, exactly, I totally felt that you
would be passionate not loud,exactly Right.
Jason (52:04):
Yes, yes, all right, that's great.
So we're getting towards theend of our time.
I want to make sure we cover afew things before we finish.
You talked about sharing yourknowledge with others through
your writing.
Right, and what that triggeredfor me was that you should be
out there training people andsharing your expertise.
As you talked about being awoman attorney and forging that
(52:25):
path, because there's a lot offemale attorneys now right in
the world that could learn fromyour experience.
What are the different waysthat people can learn from you,
Laurie Jubelirer?
Of the different ways thatpeople can learn from you.
Laurie (52:40):
Laurie Jubelirer right today.
How do they access yourwritings?
I just started a column withour legal intelligence, a
quarterly column that I write.
It's called In Pursuit ofJustice, and so it's different.
One of them was about, like, aclient who has mental health
issues in the system people withmental health issues.
One of them had to do with theprison, like I said, about
(53:00):
comparing Scandinavian prisonsto our prisons, all things in
the criminal justice system.
I always repost it in like mysocial media.
I want to keep trying to findopportunities, such as today
with podcasts.
One of my also goals and plansis to start my own podcast and
I'm going to need some helpbecause of my time and there's a
(53:22):
college student that's going tostart working with me next
month, so I'm hoping that shecan help me get it off the
ground and take charge of it andjust telling clients stories,
and that's one of my goals.
And then another goal from thatwould be to write a book about
it and then really, just as muchas I can at least today we have
social media just get it outthere as much as I can and I
(53:44):
really think I need to get it tothe legislators in our state,
because that's who needs to makechange and be aware of the laws
that they pass and the impactthat it has.
So that's one of the things Iwant to be able to do in my
future time.
Amber (53:58):
So I love all of those things that sounds so exciting
and I am looking forward tohearing about, particularly the
podcast.
We're podcast people, we loveto support and uplift other
podcasters and, of course,people who've been been impacted
.
One of the things that comes tomind to me that is one of the
(54:19):
often used techniques andadvocacy organizations is
working with people who areincarcerated, provide them with
opportunities or people inre-entry.
Provide them with opportunitiesto have a platform to have
their stories told tolegislators.
So, for instance, inConnecticut there's a wonderful
organization called StopSolitary and they worked with
(54:43):
interns and attorneys to go intoprisons and talk to people
about something pertaining to aparticular legislation and then
had people go to the legislatureand read those stories.
So that's one way that might bepretty accessible and a great
way that you might be able toget involved with some advocacy
organizations that could helpuplift what's happening to your
(55:04):
client.
Laurie (55:05):
I love that.
I love that idea.
It's great.
Jason (55:08):
That's what we need to do.
Amber, do you want to ask yourlast question?
Amber (55:12):
Yes, Laurie, I usually ask a similar last question,
just like Jason asked our firstquestion, and it is if you had
one piece of advice for someonewho was on a similar journey to
your own, what would it be?
Laurie (55:33):
Take a risk, be true to yourself, follow your heart and
do something meaningful and makea difference.
Don't be afraid.
When I first started in 2013, Ihad no clients, nothing.
It was scary that I persistedand I did it, and the feeling
that I have now of what I'veaccomplished and what I will
continue to accomplish iswonderful.
(55:54):
And I just would say to someonedo meaningful work and enjoy
what you do and make adifference.
Amber (56:02):
I love that.
Thank you so much, Laurie.
Wow, mic drop.
Jason (56:09):
Yeah, there's not much more to say other than thank you
so much for being with us todayand sharing parts of your
journey.
I'm sure, as we had talkedabout before, we even spoke here
on the podcast is you know, wecould probably spend a month
talking about your experiencesand comparing to some of the
stuff that we've both beenthrough, and so it's great.
(56:31):
Maybe when you have yourpodcast, you can have us on
yours, and that'd be amazing.
And thank you for being here.
Laurie (56:38):
Thank you so much, I really enjoyed our conversation.
Jason (56:43):
Until next time Amber.
Amber (56:44):
We'll see you next time.
Outro (56:48):
You've been listening to Amplified Voices, a podcast
listing the experiences ofpeople and families impacted by
the criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.
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