Shawn: Creating Community, One Mom's Response to Crisis - Season 5 Episode 4

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What if a single phone call could turn your entire world upside down? In this heartfelt episode of Amplified Voices, Amber and Jason are in conversation with  Shawn Barrera-Leaf, whose family faced a seismic shift in August 2017. Just as Shawn was preparing for her eldest son's wedding, she received the shocking news that her youngest son, an aspiring doctor, had been arrested on a serious charge. Listen as Shawn opens up about the initial shock, confusion, and emotional turmoil that enveloped her family during this unimaginable time.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of the criminal legal system through Shawn's eyes. She shares the family's journey through accountability, court proceedings, the significant financial and emotional strains, and the critical role of mental health counseling in helping them cope. You'll hear about the stark realities of mandatory minimum sentencing and the often-overlooked human aspects of legal battles. Shawn's story sheds light on the resilience required to endure and the importance of supportive people and networks that provided solace during their darkest days.

In the latter part of our conversation, we explore Shawn's inspiring involvement in advocacy work. Discover how connecting with Michigan Citizens for Justice and founding United Voices for Sex Offense Reform provided her with a sense of purpose and community. Celebrate with us the power of unity and collective action as we reflect on the hope and strength that can emerge from connections amidst significant adversity.

About Shawn:
Shawn Barrera-Leaf, a Michigan native, began her journey into criminal justice advocacy in 2017 when her son’s conviction drastically altered their lives.

As the Executive Director of United Voices for Sex Offense Reform (UV4SOR) a national nonprofit, Shawn leads the organization to challenge punitive laws, raise awareness about the harm inflicted by the carceral system, and promote healing. UV4SOR’s advocacy efforts convey that justice is not about retribution, but about restoring dignity, hope, and the belief in second chances. She serves on the board of CURE-SORT and is actively involved in the steering committee of the National Coalition Against Conviction Registries comprised of 30+ organizations working together to abolish the Sex Offense Registry and its regime. Shawn can be reached at [e-mail] or through the
website UV4SOR

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Episode Transcript

Introduction (00:00):
Everyone has a voice, a story to tell.
Some are marginalized and muted.
What if there were a way toamplify those stories, to have
conversations with real peoplein real communities, a way to
help them step into the power oftheir lived experience?
Welcome to Amplified Voices, apodcast lifting the experiences

(00:23):
of people and families impactedby the criminal legal system.
Together, we can createpositive change for everyone.

Jason (00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Amplified
Voices.
I'm your host, Jason, here withmy co-host, Amber.
Good morning, Amber.

Amber (00:41):
Good morning Jason.

Jason (00:43):
And today, amber, we have Shawn Barrera-Leaf.
Good morning Amber.
Good morning Jason.
And today, amber, we have SeanBarrera-Leap.
Good morning Shawn.

Shawn (00:48):
Good morning, Jason and Amber Good morning, Shawn.

Amber (00:51):
We're so excited to have you here this morning.

Shawn (00:54):
I'm very excited to be here.
Thank you so much.

Jason (00:57):
It's great to have you, sean Somebody just full
disclosure here, sean, someonethat Amber and I both have known
before this podcast recording,so it's a pleasure to be
speaking with her and getting tohear a little bit about her
story.
But, sean, the question for youis the same that we ask every
guest to start off is could youtell us a little bit about your
life before entering thecriminal legal system and what

(01:19):
brought you into it?

Shawn (01:21):
Of course, my husband and I raised our children in a
small rural community here innorthern Michigan, and both our
children had graduated highschool both who graduated from
one from Michigan StateUniversity, the other from
University of Michigan and wewere empty nesters.
So we were in the process ofwelcoming my bonus daughter.

(01:44):
My oldest son was gettingmarried in October of 2017.
So we were just plugging along,working hard.
My husband and I werecontemplating on maybe moving
away from the area to find asecond home, someplace warmer,
and just helping our kids outand enjoying our community.

Jason (02:02):
Helping our kids out and enjoying our community, and so
life was good.
And you just thought we'regoing to enter the next phase of
our lives.
What happens?

Shawn (02:12):
That's my before and after, as you just explained,
and I'm sure a lot of people canrelate to this, but we were
plugging away.
Like I said, we were welcomingmy bonus daughter, so there were
a lot of preparations that weregoing on.
I was getting some griefbecause it was the end of August
and I still hadn't found mydress yet for the wedding, so I
was getting a little amber mypeel to relate to that, but I

(02:33):
was getting a little grief frompeople.
It was like, okay, I got to dothis.
So I was focused on weddingpreparations and, ironically,
august 31st, 2017, is ouranniversary for when the
criminal justice legal systemimpacted our family, and my
husband and I had a missed phonecall from our youngest son, who

(02:56):
is impacted, and he wasarrested and we're like.
So our first thought was okayand we're like.
So our first thought was okaydrunk driving.
He was working third shift inour local hospital because he
was on his way to medical schooland I thought, maybe drugs.
It was unlikely.
The thoughts in our heads wereas far from what actually

(03:19):
happened.
It was over Labor Day weekend.
We went through the process, wewent through his arraignment
and when we found out what washappening.
He was here in the state ofMichigan.
We have sexual harm convictionsthat are called criminal sexual
conduct, and we found out atthat time that he was getting
charged with a CSC-2.

(03:40):
And it just blew our mind.

Jason (03:42):
We're just like what is going on here, so I want to roll
back for a second.
You get a call from your son.

Amber (03:49):
So you'd missed the call.
So you're like, oh, I need tocall him back, like what's
happening?

Shawn (03:54):
Right, we missed the call .
The voicemail message that hewas in jail.
He had already been arrested.

Jason (04:00):
You hear this message.
You're telling us you'reprepping for a wedding which is
a joyful, joyful and stressfultime.

Amber (04:07):
Joyful All of those.

Jason (04:09):
Exactly so.
You're preparing for thiswedding and at the same time,
you have your younger son who ison a path to become a doctor.
Like it's a mother's dream,right?
Everything's going well and youget a call that he's been
arrested.
What is happening in your mind?
How did you react?
What's going on?

Shawn (04:28):
I was angry because I firmly believed it was something
that was alcohol related ordrug related, and I was upset
because we'd been pretty adamant, especially with how serious
drinking and driving laws are,and he had a whole future ahead
of him.
Just please, if you need a ridehome, call us.
So I was thinking how could hebe so stupid?

(04:49):
We've been very open with this.
And so, yeah, that was what wewere thinking and we're like,
okay, let's go bail him out, seewhat we can do here.
His bail there was no bail.
His bond was very high.
Did you like get in the car anddrive to the police station?
I called the police stationbecause, like I said, we live in
a fairly small community and Iwasn't unfamiliar with the legal

(05:12):
system here in our community.
I worked with attorneys, I didsome contract work for some
attorneys, so I was familiarwith the processes.
So I called up to the jail andI first of all said he was my
son there and they asked me thename and they confirmed that he
was and I said what is he beingheld for?

Amber (05:30):
And he wouldn't tell me oh, so now you've got a whole
can of worms of an imaginationjust going around in your head.

Shawn (05:40):
Yes, and I said can we come get him?
And he said no, and it's LaborDay weekend and this is Friday.
He got arrested on a Friday, sothis is Saturday morning.

Jason (05:51):
Oh boy.

Shawn (05:53):
So we're like, okay.
So then we thought we have toget an attorney involved,
because I was still thinkingother than what he was charged
with.
I was still thinking it had todo with drugs.
I thought maybe he was tryingto sell drugs.
I had no idea and my husbandand I were just like grasping at
straws.

(06:13):
So we called an attorney who wewere familiar with who dealt
with more so alcohol and drugrelated charges and convictions.
So we called him up.
He's a friend of ours.
He says I'll call over thereand see what's going on.
He called over there and thenhe says I'm going to go and talk
to your son.
He says I want you guys to meetus at the jail.

Jason (06:33):
So then we're like oh boy , okay, so you get there, and
the drive there must've been alittle nerve wracking.

Shawn (06:43):
We were still bewildered.
We're just like something isoff here, something is
definitely not clicking.
And again, I had no idea theseriousness and I look back on
some of the conversations that Ihad and it's still, I think,
more so, just because I was inshock and I couldn't believe

(07:07):
that they're holding my son.
They wouldn't tell me what'sgoing on and basically because
he was 24 years old at the timeand he was an adult, and so
they're not going to tell usanything.
So our attorney went and talkedto him and he came back out and
he said what he was arrested for.
And I just looked at him.
I said that's crazy, there'sgot to be a mistake here.

(07:29):
And the first thing I thoughtof Jason and Amber was his
career.
His career is gone, and that'swhen things were just starting
to play out and I'm like we haveto do it.
This can't be happening.
We've got to.
This has to stop.
And so my husband and I waiteduntil paper day, that Tuesday

(07:50):
morning when he was gettingarraigned, because they set his
bond at it was like $500,000.
And we're just looking at thatand we're like there's no way.
There's no way we can doanything here.
There's no way.
There's no way we can doanything here.
So we went to his arraignmentTuesday morning and the judge
that was there was a substitutejudge.

(08:10):
He had already retired withintheir community.
He knew our family and he setmy son's bond.
He gave him a personalrecognizant bond and let him
come home.
So we picked him up Tuesdaymorning and after the
arraignment and on the way home,we're just like silent.

(08:32):
I think we were just all tryingto process what was going on
and I remember thinking at thattime okay, step one is done.
Okay, let's just get home andsee what we need to do.

Jason (08:45):
So you had said before that you were angry with him
when you thought it was likedrunk driving.
Now you're in this phase.
It sounds like you hadconverted over to mission mode.
How do we fight this?
That's the sense I'm gettingfrom what you're saying, but
what's the emotion for you?
Are you still angry and tryingto help solve what's going on
and what's happening as a motherin this instance?

Shawn (09:15):
Jason, I think as a mom, I was looking at how can we
resolve this.
If this is true, what you'rebeing charged with, you have
some accountability here, buthow can we minimize the impact?
This is going to have on yourlife.

Jason (09:27):
And I don't want to go too far into this, but was this
like a hands-on offense, wherethere was an actual, tangible
person that you could say thisis the victim, or was it
something different?

Shawn (09:41):
There was a tangible person involved, and it was a
family, a person in ourcommunity that we knew.

Jason (09:47):
Okay.

Amber (09:49):
So I just want to thank you, sean, for sharing some of
the ways that you were feeling,because I know that a lot of
people who listen to our podcast, who are family members of
individuals who have foundthemselves in similar situations
, can really resonate.
I know for myself, like thisfeeling of complete shock Okay,

(10:10):
this bomb is here and what do Ido?
I know my experience was okay.
Now I got to do you go intothis weird survival mode that
you're like okay, I understandwhat's happening, I'm still numb
and I don't really know what'sgoing on.
But now I got to make phonecalls, I got to find an attorney

(10:31):
, I got to be there at thearraignment and all of this is
manifesting and adding up inyour body as you're going along.
But you don't have time forthat.
Does that feel like a correct?

Shawn (10:45):
characterization Exactly.
It's amazing how your body doestake over in those aspects and
you really don't think, you justdo, and there were so many
situations that you think aboutokay, just doing the mundane
routine things, this is okay,let's just get.
Let's get things this is okay,let's just get dinner done,

(11:07):
let's talk about this.

Jason (11:08):
You still need a dress for the wedding.
Exactly Right.

Shawn (11:11):
And I had a wedding shower that we were hosting, and
that was my thoughts.
Okay, every day there wassomething that needed to be done
, not only with what was goingon with my son, but with my
older son's situation too, andthe hardest thing for me was not
trying to have this piece, sucha black cloud, over this happy

(11:33):
time in my older son's life.

Jason (11:35):
Right.
And so how did it impact?
The older son Was the family ofyour new daughter-in-law.
Were they like, hey, maybe thisisn't right?
What happened?

Shawn (11:48):
Fortunately, with that, everyone was very supportive.
Both my sons are very close andit was like what it was, very
like.
This is so odd.
But then, as things startedprogressing, people were
especially my daughter-in-law'sfamily and my oldest son.
They were extremely supportive,helpful, but I put it on myself

(12:13):
that I didn't want them to behindered with this, knowing what
they were planning.
I just thought, okay, we got toget through this wedding.
That was my whole focus.
Let's get through this weddingand then we're going to deal.

Jason (12:27):
How could you not Like if I'm your older son and now my
brother is going through thislike during this time that's
supposed to be so wonderful forme?
That's got to be tough.

Shawn (12:37):
And he was in the wedding too.
So we had police.
But the thing that bothered methe most was I was so very
appreciative that the judgerecognized this person has never
been in trouble with the law atall, the bond that was set on
him was really out of reach andthat he didn't feel that there
was any flight risk.
That did not sit well with theprosecutor, of course, right

(13:00):
Right.
So when he was released, I wasso over the weekend because,
like I said earlier, my son hadthird shift working at the
hospital.
He missed three days of work.
So my husband was calling thehospital and just saying we have
a situation here.
He'll report back to workTuesday night and we just wanted

(13:22):
to make sure that he had hisjob back to work Tuesday night.
And we just wanted to make surethat he had his job.
That was so important for meand him and for our son to keep
that job.
And when the prosecutor foundout that he was released on a
personal recognizant bond, shewent back to the court and

(13:43):
basically made him wear a tetherthen and pay for the tether.
Right, and that was my firstexperience of the collateral
damages that come to the family,because the tether itself was
$175 a week.

Jason (13:58):
Stop $175 every single week.
One hundred seventy fivedollars every single week, and
was.

Amber (14:12):
It was an ankle monitor, to wear an ankle monitor,
restricting movement, correct.
And so, for those who havenever had an experience like
this, can you describe like sothis is an electronic device and
it attaches to someone's bodyand it is incumbent upon the
person to make sure that it'scharged, and if it goes dead

(14:32):
then it's just.
It's not.
Oh, the thing just went dead.
It's like well, you're tryingto abscond.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow that affected your son and
your family?

Shawn (14:43):
Well, so I guess what my first thought with that was okay
, if you feel that he needs this, even though the judge felt
that he didn't, and obviouslyyou're a prosecutor so you must
know more than what the judgedoes.
But I said, okay, we're notgoing to again.
I was thinking, this is anotherchallenge, this is another
obstacle, let's just get throughit.

(15:04):
But it was definitely in theback of my head all the time,
asking him are you charged up?
Do we need to go in and pay forthis?
Just constantly making surethat everything was kosher,
because I just did not wantanything to bring attention to
him anymore.
I mean, we already had.
This was in our community.

(15:26):
Everyone knows things happen inthe newspapers.
There was already that sanddrawn in the line within the
community, so it was just like Iwas trying to keep things as
normal as possible, which andyou're carrying the emotion.

Jason (15:39):
You put pressure on yourself to carry that emotional
load.
So, even though he isresponsible 24 year old that's
on his way to was, on his way tomed school you're still saying
I got to make sure that thisthing doesn't go any further
south than it's already gone.
Right, right, yeah.

Shawn (15:58):
So we ended up having to tether and it was definitely
another monkey on his back, soto speak.
We dealt with it and thetuxedos covered everything
during the wedding, so even thepictures.
You couldn't tell, or anythinglike that.
And then I was worried too,because with this tether, I mean
they said that he couldn'tleave the state of Michigan Not

(16:19):
that we were leaving our stateof Michigan, we were traveling
downstate for the wedding.
So I remember asking ourattorney I said is this going to
be a problem?
And he says no.
He says your son can enjoy hisbrother's wedding.
And I'm like, okay, there'sgoing to be alcohol, there's
going to be children.
That was one thing with the.
This is how naive I was at thetime.

(16:41):
There was one thing with thetether.
I was thinking are you going toget in trouble if, like, we're
in church and a youngster sitsnext to us?
I mean, all these thoughts weregoing through my head, you know
, because I didn't know and Iwas just thinking the worst
possible case scenarios.

Amber (16:59):
I just, I just didn't want them to come and arrest him
right, and that's definitelylike a trauma response, because
once something like that happensto you, you're you're like
trying to hold on, Right, You'retrying to hold on and you're so
hyper vigilant that somethingphone rings and you're like you
know it could be your girlfriendcalling you to be like, hey,
let's get together for coffee.

(17:20):
But you heard the phone ringand you're like is that a lawyer
?
Is that the police?
So how did the wedding go?
Let's start with that.

Shawn (17:29):
It went really well.
We had a really nice time andit was a weekend that we could
kind of forget.

Jason (17:36):
Other than the tether but it was.

Shawn (17:38):
It was a weekend that we could forget.
We all had a nice time, it wasbeautiful.
But that following week waslooming because there were
hearings and things that werecoming up.
And my husband he travels quitea bit for work and he had some
out of state things that he hadto do and he was feeling very

(18:00):
apprehensive about leavingbecause we had these and I
forget exactly what they were.
I don't know if they weresettlement conferences or what
was going on at that time, buthe was feeling very apprehensive
about leaving and I kept sayingno, you need to go, I can
handle this.
It definitely had us boththinking that, okay, it can't

(18:20):
get any worse than what it is,and he was thinking this is
really bad.

Jason (18:24):
Going back a second, what you said was you had a good
time at the wedding and it wasalmost like it seemed weird,
like it was almost like a breakin the stress, and I think
what's interesting is that whenpeople hear about other families
like their life is over, youput that in.
I'll put that in quotes right,their life is over and it's

(18:45):
really.
Your life isn't over and thereare still moments of joy, even
when you have this tremendousstress and things going on.
So the fact that you were ableto appreciate it, I'm happy for
you and your family.
As we go forward in the story alittle bit, though, I'm curious
how long was there between nowthis arrest and the bonds and
all the stuff you're talkingabout, and then when you get to

(19:10):
actual conviction?

Shawn (19:10):
like.
What's the elapsed time?
He was arrested August 31st2017.
The wedding was October 14th2017.
He was charged December 2017.
He was and we had someproceedings that we tried we
tried to because there was somebias that was going on.

(19:31):
We tried to get the judgeremoved to have a different
judge.
That didn't go very well and inDecember they put him back and
the judge that we tried to getremoved raised his bond.

Amber (19:44):
He seemed to be a little upset about wanting to be
removed.

Shawn (19:47):
Yes, and so he raised his bond and they put him back in
jail.

Amber (19:51):
That was in.

Shawn (19:51):
December 2017.
We tried to do an emergencyappeal on that to prove that the
bias that the judge had.
We lost the appeal.
We ended up bailing him out ofjail in January 2018.

Jason (20:06):
Okay, so hang on.
So it's December Now.
Each of these times thatthere's an event going in front
of this judge, I'm just curiouswere you there standing with him
, or were you advised not to go?
What was?

Shawn (20:20):
that like we were there.
Okay, I was there.

Jason (20:24):
So every time the judge looked out, there's family.

Shawn (20:27):
Yeah, and even extended family too.
On my side the family was thereand we even had his counselor
there in other proceedings aswell.
We had an outpouring of supportfor him.
We had many letters, characterreference letters, and it was to
me that's what kept me going.
But we also had the other side,too, where we lost immediate

(20:49):
family members that we stilldon't have contact with because
of this.
But we've gained so much moreI'm sure you've heard that many
times with this journey.
People gain so much more withpeople.

Jason (21:00):
So just to expand on that so what you're saying is that,
as you're going through this, assoon as people find out, they
just cut you off, they wantnothing to do with this, whereas
there are other people that arejust saying you know what, we
know you, sean, we know your son, we love you, we're here for
you, you'll get through this andwe'll stand by you by you and I

(21:21):
think, yes, exactly, Jason.

Shawn (21:24):
There were the ones that just cut it off and you could
tell the ones that you wouldcome up to in the grocery store
and they'd see you and they'dturn around and walk the other
way for the other ones that comeup and they talk to you.

Jason (21:33):
Hold on, hold on hold on Amber.
You know something about that.

Amber (21:37):
Yeah, no, that has definitely happened on many
occasions.
I had also like people that youknow, those people in your life
that you know in the community,but you're just sort of
acquaintances, but then all of asudden, because they want info,
they're really friendly andthen all of a sudden they're not

(21:57):
.
You know what I mean.
You have, you had all kinds,you had all kinds.

Jason (22:01):
Let me, let me tell you this quick way kinds you had all
kinds.
Let me tell you this quick WadeI had saved the guy's life with
the Heimlich maneuver.
Within six months prior to myinvolvement with the criminal
system, ran into his wife in astore and did exactly what
you're talking about Turnedaround and walked to the other
direction.

(22:22):
Maybe she wasn't glad that Isaved her husband's life.

Amber (22:24):
I mean, they do say you find out very quickly who your
friends are.
In a situation like this, youdo you do?

Shawn (22:35):
Yes.
So it was in January that wefound out that not only was he
going to have state charges,they were getting the federal
jurisdiction involved.
So now we are looking at statecharges and federal charges and

(22:56):
again not really being too intune to the criminal legal
system, my thought and myhusband's thought was could we
just get everything over to thefeds, because they're probably a
lot more logical than what thesmall community is treating us
Because of my son's education?
The prosecutor was basicallylaying him out that he had

(23:19):
planned all this throughout theyears and that he had this all
methodically planned out.
It was premeditated and allthese things, and so I'm
thinking this is so ridiculous.

Jason (23:31):
So I'm yeah, I'm not educated on this aspect of
getting this the federalinvolved on a state crime.
So if something happens withinthe state, did he cross state
lines Is that?
Why would the federalgovernment be involved?

Shawn (23:45):
state lines is that?
Why would the federalgovernment be involved?
Well, there is a commerceruling that federal jurisdiction
will use.
And because my son took eightpictures of a minor, his phone
was made outside of the UnitedStates outside of the United

(24:08):
States.

Amber (24:09):
It's usually like a threat, like you'll have an
aggressive prosecutor, and sothis was a situation, like if
you used any sort of electronicdevices, because, for instance,
federal law says that a minor is18 and under.
Local law may say a minor is 16and under, and so there's a lot
of trying to find a federalcharge to attach as a mechanism

(24:35):
to threaten.

Jason (24:37):
Taking something that's.

Amber (24:38):
The same thing and making it something different.

Jason (24:41):
And making it.
You know there's harm causedclearly.

Amber (24:44):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, that was harm.

Jason (24:45):
I want to acknowledge that right.

Shawn (24:47):
Definitely.

Jason (24:48):
But how do we, instead of figuring out how to stop the
harm and solve going forward,how do we take this one issue
and make it a federal offense?
Correct, okay, correct, allright.
Thank you, I didn't know that.

Shawn (25:01):
That's very helpful for me, but we really thought that
once it got into the federaljurisdiction number one, the FBI
didn't even take it.
There was eight pictures.
My son did not sell them, theywere on his phone and the
Homeland Security is the onethat indicted him.
So then that happened.

(25:23):
We went through the statecharges.
The charge actually that localstate prosecutor dropped was the
charge that was sent over tothe federal jurisdiction.
So really she did drop it.

Amber (25:33):
She dropped it, but she was like hey, my friends over
there they're going to pick itup.

Shawn (25:37):
They're going to pick it up, and that's exactly what they
did, and so we ended up takinga plea at the state level.
His sentence and we have truthin sentencing here in Michigan
so his sentence had a range fromfour to 15 years, minimum of
four, maximum of 15.
And then he was sentenced inApril of 2018.

(26:00):
And at the end of April he gottransferred to the Michigan
Department of Corrections and Iremember all this time that my
son was in county jail.
I have to admit, originally,when we would go visit him, it
was trauma.
It was being treated very poorlyas a family and I remember

(26:25):
thinking why are we beingtreated like this Number one?
I got an attitude.
It was just like listen, here,I'm paying your wages through my
taxes and I don't deserve thistreatment, and I would say that
to them and they would justignore you.
But then the more we startedgoing and families are crowded
in these visiting rooms at thecounty jail it's awful and

(26:46):
they're just waiting just tomake sure.
Look into their loved one'seyes to make sure everything's
okay.
That's all they want.
They just want reassurance.

Jason (26:54):
And everybody's in this tight space and you're treated
as if you have failed as a humanbeing for raising this monster.
Right, exactly.

Shawn (27:02):
Yeah Okay for raising this monster right.
Exactly yeah, Okay.
And I remember thinking at thattime I was looking around and I
would see small children, Iwould see elderly people, just
all walks of life, and I'mthinking this is a totally
different dimension of the worldthat we know.

Jason (27:20):
So you had never seen this before.
You have no familiarity withbeing inside of a jail or seeing
what happens and how they treatfamilies, and you're being
exposed to this for the firsttime.

Shawn (27:31):
It was mind-blowing and it was very sad.

Jason (27:37):
If you could go back to yourself from 2016,.
What would you say?

Shawn (27:41):
Hang on what would you say, hang?
On you got a big ride that'scoming out of your girlfriend.
You better hang on, no.
And I would just say keep yourfaith Because, like I said, our
seven-year anniversary is comingup next Saturday and, knowing

(28:01):
what I know now, I would havenever thought seven years ago we
would be talking on thispodcast right now, right?

Jason (28:04):
No, we've got some good stuff coming up towards the end,
but we talk about all the goodthings you're doing.

Amber (28:08):
So he gets transferred to so he gets transferred and I
got a call from the county jail.

Shawn (28:14):
It wasn't maybe I don't know what they do when people
get transferred out, how longthey need to contact families to
come pick up their property,but I was at work and at this
time I just worked a couple ofblocks from where the county
jail was at.
And I got this phone call and Ianswered it and the I don't
know jail administrator she wasmatter of fact and her exact

(28:38):
words to me were Mr, my son'sname was Leaf, was not, is no
longer here, and if you don'tcome pick up his personal
belongings and within 24 hourshis personal belongings will be
destroyed.

Amber (28:57):
Just you're like oh thanks, Thanks for the phone
call, yeah, Thanks.
I think this is really anillustration of how folks that
are working within the systemthis is a Tuesday for them,
right?
This is just a day of the week.
They're like very matter offact, your life is crumbling and
they're just like here's thisthing and we're going to destroy

(29:19):
something, hurt something, harmsomething, and this is just
like what the system is.

Shawn (29:25):
And I remember saying to her Wow.
I said do you say this toeverybody?
I said you do know that it's aloved one of somebody's and I
said and their personalbelongings might mean a lot to
them and maybe people might notbe able to get there within 24
hours.
And she was just as long asyou're here within 24 hours.

Jason (29:45):
I'll be there today, thank you, yeah, have a nice day
.

Shawn (29:48):
Yeah, can we help you with anything else?

Jason (29:50):
Yeah, I love that you speak your mind.
That's amazing.

Shawn (29:54):
Well, it took me a long time to get to that point
because I was so afraid that ifI did speak my mind, that there
would be you touched on it rightthere.

Jason (30:00):
It's fear and once you're in this system, like how, if I
do anything, it might make thesituation worse, and that fear
is a very strong thing foreverybody, and getting up and
speaking it takes a lot ofcourage, but it also comes with
risk, because the fear is real.

Shawn (30:18):
So he got to the Michigan Department of Corrections.
He was there for five days andhe got indicted.
So we were down into the federalcourt in the Eastern District
in the state of Michigan and atthat time he got indicted and
the magistrate asked him if heand our attorneys advised him
not to go back to the MDLC sodon't let them rent you out.

(30:41):
You want to stay within thefederal jurisdiction so that
you're not being transferredback and forth for all the
proceedings and everything.
And we did this so that becausethe state prosecuting attorney
was telling us also that she hadother charges against him for
lying to a police officer thatshe was going to charge him with

(31:03):
.
So that whole thing once theycharge you, they have 180 days
to get everything going beforeit can get dropped.
So our attorney said let's justkeep them here, let them stay
here.
So we did that and from May of2018 until October of 2019, he

(31:25):
was transported across the stateof Michigan to all different
county jails, and so it wasdefinitely experiencing a lot of
expense, a lot of worry, but wealso were just getting to the
point where it was just like wejust need to get on.
We need to get out of theirlives now.

Jason (31:45):
Were you learning where he was in real time or were you
finding out after he was moved?

Shawn (31:50):
Well, and I know in other states they had this too.
But we signed up to VineV-I-N-E so every time he left a
facility we were text, so we gotnotified that way.
But it was interesting to seethe differences in all the
county jails as far as how muchthey charge for phone calls and

(32:12):
commissary items and visitation.
I think the most expensivephone call we had was $20 for 10
minutes.
Okay, and so a lot of money.
We were bleeding financially,yeah, and, but we luckily had
help from other people.
But we just made this pact thathe needs us.

(32:33):
He needs to hear our voices.

Jason (32:36):
So you had some resources and then you had help from
others.
But every time you turn around,you're throwing money at the
phone calls to stay in touch.
You're throwing money at thecommissary so that he's able to
eat and have some basic needsmet.
You're throwing money at yourown travel expense to get there.
So it's as you said it'sstarting to add up, and I'm

(32:58):
assuming that you and yourhusband are still working, yes,
and so you have a job thatyou're trying to balance on top
of all this in order to helpfund some of that.
So it's got to take a toll.

Shawn (33:09):
It was definitely taking a toll and we used outside
resources.
As far as for mental health,Both my husband and I kept on
seeing the counselor that hadgave us hope with our son.
If it wasn't for her, I know heprobably wouldn't be here right
now, and she was amazing.
And she was amazing.

(33:51):
She was an expert and before myson was transferred and
indicted and everything, andbefore he was put in county jail
in December of 2017, she wasseeing him twice a week and she
would assure me.
She said Sean, your son is nota monster.
And she also explained therewere prior traumas that happened
in his life and so we were alljust trying to understand the

(34:19):
situation.

Jason (34:20):
Oh, so I just want to highlight a couple of things.
So if she's saying to you yourson is not a monster, it sounds
like you may have been thinkingthat your son is like how do I
reconcile this son, who I raisedand love, with this action and
this act which makes him amonster?
Because if he committed the actthen he has to be a monster.
But you're saying you werereassured your son is still your

(34:44):
son.
He's still the human being thatyou love.

Amber (34:46):
I think it's really important that you highlighted
the little bits of light alongthe way in terms of there's a
lot of perception that youeither are good or bad.
You are um a system actor whois bad if you're talking to

(35:07):
people who are impacted, or ifyou're a person who's impacted.
You're bad if you're talking toa correction officer or a
therapist or whatever, and it'simportant to know that there's
humanity in all of us and thereare ways that even system actors
um find to bring some light tothe situation yeah, and the

(35:28):
other thing that sean touched onis the fact that her son had
previous trauma.

Jason (35:34):
As we have talked with many people and we have learned
over the years and experiencedourselves that before people
harm, they've often been harmedthemselves.
And when you look, there are alot of hurting people in the
world and everybody reactsdifferently.
Sometimes things get suppressedand then come out in unhealthy
ways.
So helping people heal is veryimportant.

(35:56):
So it sounds like your son's onthat journey, but let's go back
.
Let's go back to so now he'sincarcerated and moving all over
the place.

Shawn (36:06):
Moving all over the place and I just want to touch base
with this one counselor, becausewhat we did to help my son was
we would make appointments withher and schedule phone calls.
He would schedule a phone calland we would make an appointment
with her so that she couldcontinue to have communication
with him.

Amber (36:25):
Oh, that's a really good idea.

Shawn (36:27):
And even though they were recorded phone calls, they
didn't talk about anything.
She just knew she goes I cantell from the sound of his voice
where he's at and she wanted tokeep a pulse on that because we
knew we were going to use herand we didn't want this void of
time that she didn't have anycontact with him, and so it was
just such a for both of them.

(36:47):
It helped our son tremendouslyand it helped me, knowing that
she had a pulse on this and shewas just such a caring person to
do that.
So I really wanted to emphasizethat we really need to find
ways to help.
Sometimes, like you said,everything our control is zero.

Jason (37:08):
Do you want to say her name, or is that?

Shawn (37:09):
Oh, she's retired now, but it's Barbara Cross.

Jason (37:13):
Okay, and we love you, barbara Cross.

Shawn (37:15):
Yeah, we love you, barbara, and she's fine foot
tall.
She's just a bulldog, she does.
She was just amazing and shedid.
She helped us so much and Ithink it's really important that
people do reach out for thattype of Some people.
There's a stigmatism with thatsometimes, but you got to find
someone who you're comfortablewith.

(37:35):
But I truly believe from thebottom of my heart that if she
was not involved, that we wouldhave different circumstances
right now.
All right, that's awesome soanyways getting to where we are
now.
We went through our.
He got indicted.
He's all over the state ofMichigan.
He got indicted, he was allover the state of Michigan, but
during this time he was in thisone county where he came across

(37:56):
a friend that we would call afriend now, talking about people
that are blessed.
And they hit it off, he andthis guy, and they became very
good friends.
And this particular gentlemanwrote me a letter about my son
and he just praised him.
He said your son has helped me.

(38:18):
He says God put him in our pathto be friends and to this day
we are still friends with thisperson.
We've adopted him and he and myson call each other brothers
and they ended up at the samefacility and state.
But it's just people like thisthat recognize things.
And he basically said yourson's not a criminal.

(38:39):
He says I believe me.
I've been through all thisbefore and I don't want to label
anybody, but he says he justdoesn't fit the bill.
But he listened to me, hehelped me, he says, and that
meant a lot to him.
So there were some really, likeyou said, bright spots along the
way that I would get thispostcard out of the blue and I'd
read it and of course yourheart drops because it's coming

(39:01):
from a facility and you're justlike, oh boy, what's going on?
And you read it and I would crybecause I'm like, okay, there's
a reason for all this and it'sfinally coming to my vision that
things happen for a reason.
I don't like to use that clichebecause it sounds like it
doesn't have a lot of meaning toit, but in our life right now

(39:23):
there's reasons for all this,but anyway.
So he gets on to federaljurisdiction.
We're faced with a mandatoryminimum of 15 years because he
had a prior conviction, eventhough it was with the same
instance.
The AUSA was trying to go for30 to 40 years and our attorney

(39:45):
was able to fight that andluckily had a relationship with
the federal judge.
And even the judge said thatthe mandatory minimum has his
hands tied and he probablywouldn't have gone, that he
would have had a departure down.
But because of that he did giveour son a concurrent sentence

(40:07):
go back.

Jason (40:07):
So you're saying so somebody can commit an offense
and the state can say we'regoing to give you a sentence,
and then you go to the federalsystem and it's the exact same
offense.

Amber (40:22):
And they say you have a prior conviction, Therefore you
are subject to a mandatoryminimum.
So I think there's two thingsthat I just want to pause really
quickly and highlight here, twothings that I just want to
pause really quickly andhighlight here, because this are
things that people who havenever encountered this don't
understand, and even people whoare situated differently and
have been impacted by the legalsystem.

(40:43):
The idea that the same act youknow, we think our perception,
if we've never contacted thesystem, is things are fair and
that double jeopardy isprohibited by the constitution
and all of these things.
So the idea that somebody couldcommit the same act and not

(41:07):
only have the state try it, thenthe federal government, but
apply a mandatory minimum andfor those who are not familiar,
that's exactly what Seandescribed A judge could say I
want to give this personprobation, I want to give this
person five years, but by law,the judge is obligated to stick

(41:31):
with the mandatory time thatthey can give, and in this case
it was 15 years.
And let's think about what 15years is.
I have an 11-year-old son.
He hasn't even been alive for15 years.
I'm not the same person I was15 years ago.

Jason (42:02):
People get married, there are children born All of these
things can happen in 15 years,and we just hand it out
Mandatorily like it's nothing.
So, in order to make thingsright with the world, what we
have to do is take 15 years awayfrom his life, his family's
life, and those are critical 15years where you can go and have
a career and a family and do allsorts of stuff.

(42:24):
He's a young man that barelystarted his adult life and now
he's facing these 15 years.

Amber (42:39):
Right, and so you also mentioned concurrent.
Can you please just describe?

Shawn (42:40):
what that means for people who may not be familiar.
Absolutely, the judge has theability to have sentences
consecutive, which would meanthat they would start one
sentence and they would end thatsentence and then they would
start the second sentence.
Concurrent means that bothsentences are pretty much run

(43:02):
together, so his state sentenceof four to 15 years and his
mandatory minimum sentence of 15years are all the same.
So that was a benefit that wehad.
Even at the time I'm thinking,oh thanks, but no, it is, it
really is.

Amber (43:15):
And you mentioned before also truth in sentencing.
Can you describe for people whodon't know what truth in
sentencing means?

Shawn (43:23):
I believe I don't quote me on the dates, but I believe
it was either the early 80s orlate 90s the state of Michigan
used to have good time butdecided that wasn't helping, or
when, maybe, I don't know whathappened.
I don't know who the governorwas at that time, but they
decided to go to this truth insentencing, which means that you
are given a minimum sentenceand a maximum sentence and

(43:46):
depending on how your behavioris on the inside will determine
if you are eligible to have theminimum sentence or are you
going to have some.
If it's like with my son'ssituation, it was four to 15, he
could have easily he had to doat least four and then.
But if he had any bad behavioror any tickets or another charge

(44:08):
or anything like that, then itcould potentially go to 15 years
or another charge or anythinglike that, then it could
potentially go to 15 years.
So when you're processed in theMichigan Department of
Corrections, you get what'scalled an early release date, an
ERD, and so your early releasedate reflects the earliest
minimum and then, as long as youdon't have any tickets and you
follow what you need to follow,then you'll go up to the parole

(44:32):
board and see if they'll releaseyou on the earliest release
date.
And that's exactly what happenedwith my son because he did the
four years.
He did sit in COVID for quitesome time in county jails
because he was in the federaljurisdiction when all that
happened.
And then when he was sent backto the MDOC, he was really only
at Michigan Department ofCorrections for two years

(44:53):
physically in the system.
He was released on probation.
He was released last July 2023.
And then the marshals came andpicked him up.

Jason (45:03):
I'm just trying to piece it together.
So he's released, he's donewith the incarcerated part of
Michigan, put on probation, butnow he's got to go into the
federal incarceration system andhe's on probation in Michigan.
So I'm not familiar with howthat works if you're in prison

(45:28):
and you're on probation.
He's answering to two differentsystems still, or how does that
work?

Shawn (45:34):
When we went to the parole board meeting and at that
time their system is threepanelists have to agree to grant
parole, but you're onlyinterviewed by one.
So going through his recordsand everything he did, and the
parole board panelists askedquestions.
Exactly what you're saying,jason.
And at that time is when theylook at the whole file and he

(45:57):
says, oh, I see you have adetainer, a federal detainer.
And then he asked my son whatthat was all about and he even
said this is silly.
He says I can't believe thatthey've charged you federally
for this.
But okay, so because there's adetainer, then the requirements
of parole are basically nullbecause you're being transferred

(46:19):
from one custody to another.
But one good thing because ofhis charges in the state of
Michigan in Sora, he was placedon tier two, so he's at 25 years
with the registry and becausethe state of Michigan released
him, his time on the registryhas started already.

Jason (46:39):
Oh.
So if he was still in theMichigan system it wouldn't
start until he was released.
But because he's now out ofthat system, he gets credit
towards the registrationrequirements.

Shawn (46:53):
It's saying right now he's not compliant because he is
incarcerated, but it is going,the clock's already ticking.

Amber (46:59):
So I do have to say this is complicated, right, like how
does one?
It just seems like a lot of upand down and I can only imagine
that trying to navigate all ofthis as a family and him as the
person who's subject to it.
There is just so much to unpackand go through and deal with.
And then the other thing I wantto mention, just going back to

(47:22):
something that you said beforethis idea of the truth in
sentencing and you can go infront of the board.
You're completely at the mercyof that board, and who is making
the decision that day, how youare able to present all of those
things.
And not to mention the idea ofif you have no tickets, right, I

(47:43):
just want to talk about whatactually can happen to people as
a, for instance, if you areincarcerated and someone attacks
you.
You have now been in a fightwhich can set you back for these
reasons, by no fault of yourown.

Shawn (48:18):
So I just want to put that in context for people who
may not know about some of thesethings.
So thank you for sharing thatthink COVID was a really good
thing.
But a lot of good happenedwithin COVID for our family
anyways whereas Gabe was stuckpretty much stuck in this little
jail over on the thumb ofMichigan in this little small
community the entire time forCOVID.
So all that time was beingticked away for both sentences,

(48:41):
but he only, like I said, he wasonly at Michigan Department of
Corrections for two years.
So he so for some of thesepeople who are facing very long
sentences, I mean, things likeyou just explained, amber, can
happen within a drop of a dime.
So he had a very short timeperiod where he stayed very well
behaved and I don't expect thatsomething would happen.

(49:03):
But ironically, after his paroleboard meeting, after he was
granted parole, he did get intoa fight and he did exactly what
you said.
He was attacked and I'm like,oh no.
So when that happened I waslike are they going to pull his
release?
And then I even thought is thisgoing to affect his good time?

(49:24):
So I'm thinking, becausefederal has good time.
So I'm thinking I'm just like,oh my goodness.
But luckily when he went to hishearing they saw the video that
happened and he was able todefend that I didn't do anything
.

Jason (49:37):
If you're a thinking person and you have a little bit
of anxiety already aboutanything.
Anytime stuff happens, you'realways thinking about the worst
things that can happen, and Ithink part of the collateral
consequences and punishment forthe extended family is always
worrying about when the nextshoe is going to drop, when that

(49:58):
next bomb is going to go off,because it's just there all the
time.
If this happens, that's goingto happen.
If this, how does that affectthis?
How does that affect?
So?
You hit on it, I think reallynicely.
So we're now in the federalsystem.
It's 2024.

Shawn (50:14):
The looming federal system.

Jason (50:16):
Where is he right now?

Shawn (50:18):
Right now he's in Milan, Michigan.

Jason (50:20):
So he's in Michigan.
Where's Michigan when you lookat the mitten right?
Where in the-.

Shawn (50:24):
He's down by Ann Arbor.
So, Southeast Michigan Monroe.
I'm not too far from theIllinois Ohio border.

Jason (50:33):
Now, is he the one that went to the University of
Michigan?

Shawn (50:36):
Yeah, he is.

Jason (50:37):
So he's not too far.
It's kind of ironic, right,he's serving time, it is he's
not too far from where he wentto school.

Shawn (50:43):
He is true blue all the way through.
He is true blue all the waythrough.
He even has the big black Mtattooed and it's just off to
the side.
So, yeah, he is definitely aWolverine.
So, yeah, this is bittersweetfor him, but I think some of
that pride and that feeling ofwhere he went to school has
helped him through some of this.

(51:04):
So that's been a blessing.
And also, both boys, carl, theytalk and even like when it's
football season, they're stillwriting each other about.

Jason (51:15):
So sometime in like 2020 and maybe before you decided I
am going to take charge, I'mgoing to get involved in a much
bigger way.
I see the shirt you're wearingWe'll talk about that a little
later, but like so, what's thattransformation?
How did that come about?

Shawn (51:35):
So when this all came about, with impacting our family
, and we got through the weddingand we're into 2018, and all
this time I'm thinking where isthe support for these families
that I would see in these jails?
And you just see the look offorlorn on their faces and

(51:56):
desperation and I'm thinking andhow we were treated even in
court, I was just like I didn'tdo anything.
I'm here to support my family.
Why am I being treated likethis?
And even for the prosecutor, itwas just like this polarizing
line has been drawn you againstme and I just found that just so
depressing and I'm thinkingwe're all in the same community

(52:20):
here.
We all want the same thing.
We want safety, we want lessharm, we want our communities to
be flourishing.
Why are we being treated likethis?
And that was my first thing.
And so I started looking aroundfor support groups and there
wasn't any for this end of harm.
And I started going through theinternet and I came across Dr

(52:46):
Ackerman's TED Talk and thatchanged me.
I was emotionally impacted withthat.
I had tears in my eyes and Ithink the reason why is because
I felt hope.

Jason (53:01):
So shout out to Alyssa.

Shawn (53:02):
Ackerman.

Amber (53:02):
She's my she hero, for sure, I'm not crying.
I'm not crying.
You can't see this, but here itis.

Jason (53:17):
So the three of us are all huge fans of Alyssa and I'm
sure not everybody listeningknows.

Shawn (53:19):
Alyssa's work.

Jason (53:20):
If you don't know, you go look for the TED Talk.
Alyssa's an amazing human beingwho's a friend, who has
survived trauma in her own life,you know, through a sexual
assault.
She's very public about thatand she went into the whole
field of trying to understandand make things better and do
restorative justice type work,and so thank you for mentioning

(53:41):
that's what brought you into thework.
So that's amazing, yeah.

Amber (53:44):
And I just have to say the reason that that like struck
such a chord for me is Iremember doing the same thing
and just being like Internethelp me.
Like is there anybody here thatlike am I screaming into the
void?
And then just coming acrossEmily Horowitz debate and being

(54:04):
like, oh my God.

Shawn (54:05):
Yeah, there's somebody who cares about this debate and
being like, oh my God, there'ssomebody who cares about this,
and so I was just so struck whenyou said that, because I feel
like that is an experience thatmany people have had who have
been through this and just thethought of the restorative
justice part of it that hit mehard, because we obviously we
were very big in faith in ourlives and I was talking to our

(54:28):
priest and coincidentally he wasanother pivotal person in my
son's life and he actuallyvisited him and throughout
writes him, and so I look atthat community too, where you go
within your community forhealing, and this wasn't
happening.
So when I saw Alyssa's TED Talk, I was just like, oh, this is
good, this is really good.

(54:49):
This is what I've been feeling,this is acknowledging
everything, and it was just likesuch a validation in that, okay
, we can do this, there'ssomething out there, there's
hope, at least there's hope.
Then I started doing more onthe restorative justice, like
trying just to figure out alittle bit more, and then I
found in Ann Arbor a supportgroup called Michigan Citizens

(55:13):
for Justice and the founder ofthat is named Kathy Corlay, her
and her husband, and I calledher up and I said this is the
situation.
And I remember speaking to her.
We talked for a long time andone thing that she said to me
that was like why are you askingme this?

(55:33):
She said have you told anybody?
And I said no.
She said why?
And I said why would I?
She goes because, sean, so manypeople are impacted that you
would be surprised how manyfamily members are out there
that are going through whatyou're going through.

(55:55):
And it didn't even hit me likethat.
I thought we were an island.
I thought this is such anisolation that who would want to
talk about this?
And when she said that, I felt,sean, that was stupid.
There's probably a lot ofpeople that are in this type of
situation, and so that was thefirst thing.
It was like, okay, all right,there's more to this, a lot more
to this than what we're seeing.
We ended up taking the triponce a month.

(56:17):
They have a support group onSaturday afternoons in Ann Arbor
.
My sister lives close by, so wewould go there and stay the
night.
We met with John and Kathy forcoffee at this little coffee
house before our first meetingand two hours later many tears
we went to our first supportgroup meeting and it was

(56:38):
probably the only time thatsince that started, that we
could be ourselves, that wecould be ourselves, and it was
so cleansing and at that time Iknew I wanted to help people.

Jason (56:54):
Was there hugging?

Shawn (56:55):
Hugging.
Oh yeah, and it was so nice,because that's where I met Josh
Ho.

Jason (57:00):
Yeah, Joshua Ho.
Yeah, I was going to say it washis birthday the last week
before we're recording this andhe's amazing, so you actually
met him in person early on inyour journey.
That's great.

Shawn (57:13):
Yep 2018, 19.

Jason (57:14):
Fabulous.

Shawn (57:15):
And it was so nice because they reorganized the
meeting so that and there wasprobably I can't talk a lot
about it because it's very safeinformation but the whole thing
was they rearranged it so thateverybody could give us a tidbit
of advice.

Jason (57:30):
So, while we're doing all these shout outs for people,
though, before you go on.
So Joshua Hull is the podcastthat he had Decarceration Nation
.
That was his podcast.
He's a policy organizer nowwith Dreamorg.
He says amazing things, he's onTwitter, he's on a couple of
other social media platforms andhe's been an inspiration to me.

(57:52):
I know Amber.
Just want to just highlightthat we're bringing up all the
greats We've got.
Alyssa.
Emily and.
Joshua all in the sameconversation.
Emily Kathy Joshua.

Shawn (58:03):
So that started our dipping my toes into advocacy,
because at that time we stillhad the Dovey Snyder case with
the ACLU involved and this groupwas branching out for helping
the ACLU with this litigationand so we were having trainings

(58:23):
from the ACLU on how to talk toyour legislative leaders.
We were getting involved as whatthe replications are with this
case, and I remember thinkingthe registry was just like this
is just another absurd part ofthis whole journey, and at first
I was like I'm not sure ifwe're ready to do this, but then
I thought our son's going to bethere eventually, so we might

(58:45):
as well get to be as muchinvolved as we can.
So when he does get out,hopefully it'll be changed, but
if not, then we have moreinformation on how we can handle
this.
So that's where the advocacycame in.
We started going to our leadersand advocating, following the
litigation pretty closely andjust knowing at that point that

(59:10):
nothing's going to change unlesswe get involved.
And so we had really goodteachers, we had people who held
our hands, and then we branchedout on our own and we actually
got a chapter of the ACLU uphere where I live, which was a
very conservative community.
But for the first meeting thatthey held we had probably over a

(59:31):
hundred people there.
So that proved too that we needthis.
We need this, right Right.

Jason (59:38):
So what comes first?
I know we saw you on one of ourmeetings early on with
Restorative Action Alliance andyou have a website.
You have a Facebook group.
You have regular Zoom meetingswith United Voices for Sex.
Offense Reform is the name ofthe organization.
What's that all about?

Shawn (59:58):
So we ended up going through all these things at the
ACLU and I was again working onjust trying to find like-minded
people.
then COVID hit and everyone,everything stops and all we have
is Zoom and the internet andduring this time period I'm
finding, wow, there's a lot ofangst, there's a lot of people

(01:00:23):
who are angry but they don'tknow what to do.
They don't know what to do.
And so one of our meetings, alot of complaining but nothing
being done.
And at this point I was justlike we need to do something and
we need to quit being afraid.
And if this is what we want todo, then let's organize this.
And I wasn't expecting it totake off the way it did, because

(01:00:47):
, in my experience with all this, people are at different stages
of this, and some are at thepretrial, some are incarcerated,
some are at the registry, andit's such a hard thing to share
Because I think we all havethese boundaries that we put up,
that we're going to get judged.
Or maybe some people think thisthing that my loved one did

(01:01:07):
isn't really quite as serious aswhat your loved one did, so
maybe we shouldn't be talkingtype of thing, and I really
wanted to dissolve that becauseit doesn't matter, we're all in
the same boat.
The schematics may be different, but we're all in the same boat
.
The foundation is the samething.
So let's just get past that andwork on what needs to get done.
So we decided that we would dothis little trial meeting if

(01:01:32):
you're interested in advocacybecause there was a ton of
support resources out there andthis is different.
Advocacy can be a support, butit's different and so I really
wanted to get some groundwork,grassroots, building on just
advocacy, and I realized thiswas going to be a really tall

(01:01:54):
challenge because we're all atdifferent stages.
But I was going back to where Iwas when we started lobbying and
looking at things and just howmuch information is golden and
education is golden.
So if you can be confident inhow you speak, then it doesn't
matter who you're speaking to,that's advocacy If you're

(01:02:17):
talking to your neighbor or Ihad a situation where I used to
teach fitness classes.
I ran into a person that cameto my classes about four months
ago and we were talking and shesaid I haven't seen you in so
long.
She goes.
I really miss our classes andshe goes.
Why did you stop doing classes?
And that was when we wereimpacted and I looked at her and
I said you don't know and shegoes.

(01:02:40):
No, so here I portrayed thatpeople all knew what was going
on in our lives.

Jason (01:02:47):
Right.

Shawn (01:02:48):
And a lot allowed people different.
So that opportunity was toshare a little bit of what
happened, but also to get thatadvocacy out there, and she was
so receptive.
So we bring our own barriersand if we're not confident in
how we can send our message,then that barrier gets bigger.
So that was the whole premiseof all this we just need to come

(01:03:08):
together, we need to beconfident in what we're doing
and that first meeting it waslike, oh my goodness, there is a
ton of people here.

Amber (01:03:19):
That's amazing.

Jason (01:03:19):
It was like what did I get myself?

Shawn (01:03:21):
but the passion and the interest and just I hate to use
the square, but the desperationyeah is there no, that's a good
word for it.

Jason (01:03:37):
I mean, it's absolutely there.
So so you have an organizationand it's been doing things like
reviewing what's in thesentencing commission reports
and getting people to writeletters.
You saw what was happening withthe castration laws in
Louisiana and got people to actquickly, so you created a

(01:04:00):
network of people to do letterwriting campaigns for different
people of different states tocome together, whether it
affects locally or federally.
What's going on?
You've got all sorts of thingsthat are happening with your
organization right.
What are the plans goingforward?
How's this expanding?
How can people get involved?

Shawn (01:04:21):
We do have a website and it's uv4sororg.
There is a contact us on thatif anybody's interested.
We are on social media just onFacebook, but we also identify
that many of our members are notable to be on social media, so
we really tried to push themtowards the website, which is

(01:04:41):
our main contact.
But the situation that we're inthis organization we've really
got ebbs and flows witheverything.
We're really trying to make ourstatement out there, but I
think the most important thingis that we identify with every
part of this journey.
So when someone says what isyour focus, it's really hard to

(01:05:02):
identify that only because wetry to help the needs of where
the person is.
At this time, most of ourmembers are impacted with the
federal jurisdiction, but thatdoesn't limit us for people who
are in state.
We want to expand so that wecan accommodate that.

(01:05:22):
We are in the process of tryingto have grassroots in every
state.
Our membership grew hugely.
We are I think we'rerepresented in every state
except six last time I counted.
But we are growing.
We do have growing pains andwe're really trying to listen to

(01:05:44):
what people want, but I thinkthe most important thing is that
we are trying to get people tounderstand that it starts with
you.
And how we're going to startwith you is we're going to give
the resources so that you feelcomfortable in your advocacy.
So, whether that's like I saidearlier, whether that's just

(01:06:04):
talking to your neighbor, goingto community outreach situations
, talking to your leaders, weall have to have the same
message there and we all need tobe consistent in our message,
and politics don't play any gamehere.

Jason (01:06:20):
And because there's always that when we talked about
, like registry reform, it's.
We only think that this is howfar we're going to get, so we're
going to advocate for a littlechange in the requirements.
No abolition, it's.
We only think that this is howfar we're going to get, so we're
going to advocate for a littlechange in the requirements.
No abolition, it's wrong, getrid of it.
Those are the types ofmessaging things I think you're
alluding to.
One thing I want to ask you is,as we're talking about your

(01:06:40):
organization, we mentioned threesuperstars earlier Are there
people that would want theirname to be mentioned and
acknowledged?
I know there's people doing thework that just want to stay
under the radar a little bit,but if there's anybody in your
organization or people thatyou've come across that you want
to highlight, now's anopportunity to do that.

Shawn (01:07:03):
We really have some really good members and I think
what's really looking at thewhole picture, what's really
satisfying to me is to see themwhen they started and then to
see them flourish with theirconfidence.
So of course, I have awonderful board.
We've all been together sincethis started and they have been

(01:07:23):
wonderful people to lean into,especially with some of the
situations that come across ourplatform, and we really have
some like.
My sister has stepped up to theplate, has really used her
experience in the corporateworld to help with behind the
scenes things, and we reallywant to make sure that people
that are on this platform thatwe offer a safe space.

(01:07:45):
This is where we're going togrow and learn and we don't want
you to be worried that thingsare going to get out, and this
is where we as a group cometogether collectively to make
sure that we're all on the samepage so that we can learn and
grow together.
We have a couple of people fromNorth Carolina.
They again their familiesimpacted through the state of

(01:08:06):
North Carolina, but they havebeen tremendous, just thinking
outside the box, thinking ofways that they could help.
How can we get this word out?
There's another person.
Her name is Kendra Phillips.
She is a professional colleagueI look at both of you as
professional colleagues, withtheir membership as well.
She is a playwright and she iswriting a play about this

(01:08:28):
community, so I want to give ashout out to her because, again,
that's something that takes alot of courage to do and
hopefully, when she gets done,we'll be able to get this
message on that platform as well.

Jason (01:08:42):
No pressure, hurry up and finish the play.
And Sean, you're talking aboutall these colleagues with such
pride, and I'm sure that they'revery proud of you.

Amber (01:09:05):
And when they listen to this, they the messaging and the
leadership of United Voices isthe clear intention to making
sure that people, as you saidthrough your own journey, making
sure that people understandthat they belong Right, right,

(01:09:39):
and not calling people out whenthey're in a place of trauma and
they might be saying somethingthat is full of anger, but
calling them in and saying thisis I appreciate what you're
feeling.
Have you considered thatanother person who has a
slightly different situation mayfind some of these words
harmful?
Right, and so I think the clearintention to that is something
that's really special and is amodel to other people who are

(01:09:59):
engaging in advocacy and, asJason said, the joy with which
you are speaking about yourcolleagues is on your face.
People can't see it becausethis is a podcast, is really
contagious, if you will, and itspeaks to her character.
Yeah, it definitely speaks to,Sean, and the ray of light that

(01:10:21):
you are, the thread throughouteven a lot of the things that
you were describing that arecomplicated and full of trauma,
was I was really thankful forthis thing and then I was
thankful for this thing.
I appreciate that hopefulnessthat you bring to this movement
and I just wanted to say thatout loud.

Shawn (01:10:41):
Well, thank you very much and know that I look up to both
of you, but I also look to youas friendship.
I've come across so many peoplein this journey and I'm just
flabbergasted at, sometimes,just the people that cross our
paths and how this journeybrings us all together, and I'm
very thankful for that, becauseI know both of you have done so
much within this foundation andit's just amazing that we were

(01:11:06):
together and collaboratingtogether.
I'm so blessed for that.

Jason (01:11:10):
Amber's usually the one that cries, but I'm getting all
misty here, so listen, this hasbeen great.
I want to know how's your sondoing right now.

Shawn (01:11:18):
He's doing really well.
He's very resilient, he's verysmart, he has a good group of
people.
And one thing I want to saywith pride with our organization
, that once he got into thefederal jurisdiction, if it
wasn't for this network ofputting out there where he's
going and people coming togetherand saying, okay, I know this

(01:11:39):
person, I know this person, Iknow the person Amazing, it was
amazing.
It was amazing and I think thelittle bit of what we could do
for our members is to providethat comfort that goes over and
above everything.
But he's doing very well.
Thank you for asking.
He is my hero.
I tell him that every day hegets up, he goes through this,

(01:12:02):
he's taking accountability andwhen he gets out, he's going to
be part of this organization andhe's going to make it go.

Jason (01:12:08):
Yeah, wait to be working side by side with him 100%.

Amber (01:12:12):
I think it might be time for the final question.

Jason (01:12:17):
Go for it.

Amber (01:12:18):
I always like to ask people if you could give one
piece of advice to someone whois at the beginning of a journey
similar to yours.
What would that be?

Shawn (01:12:34):
Trust your instincts.
I say that because I knewsomething was worse than what we
were being told and I knew thatwe needed an advocate in our
corner.
So if you feel that something'snot right, it's not right, so

(01:12:57):
really trust your instincts andto have faith, because and
whatever that faith is in yourlife to have that, like I said,
looking back, there were times Iwould come home and I would
expect not to see my son aliveand I hope that doesn't trigger
too many people with this.
But knowing what I know nowresilience and faith, and just

(01:13:18):
trusting your instincts, it willget you through and it does get
easier.
And just know that people areout here to support you.

Amber (01:13:30):
I love that so much.
I feel like that is such awonderful closing to an
extremely wonderful podcast, andwe want to thank you so much
for being with us today andsharing your light and the light
of those who are workingalongside you.
Thank you both.

Shawn (01:13:49):
I really appreciate it.
It was very nice getting up andhaving coffee with both of you
on Saturday morning.

Jason (01:13:55):
Sean, I liked you before.
I like you more now.
This was a great conversation.
Loved getting to know you alittle bit better, and I think
it's going to be so beneficialfor so many people to listen to
and, as you've talked about, nomatter where they are on the
journey if they're just starting, they might get some hope.
If they're in the middle, itmight give them some inspiration
.
If they're towards the end,they might want to join us,

(01:14:17):
whatever.
So I think it was a.
It was wonderful to talk withyou, and until next time, amber.

Outro (01:14:24):
We'll see you next time You've been listening to
Amplified Voices, a podcastlifting the experiences of
people and families impacted bythe criminal legal system.
For more information, episodesand podcast notes, visit
amplifiedvoicesshow.