122. Restorative Justice in "The South" w/ Jo Hanna Thompson

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JoHanna "J" Thompson is the Co-Director of the Florida Restorative Justice Coalition. Her career has been dedicated to creating collaborative spaces across an intersection of networks, fostering relationships, and maintaining a vision to increase the capacity of influencers, community organizations, programs and campaigns working toward equitable social and transformational justice.

She lends lived experience and expertise as a Social Impact Strategist, Public
Administrator, Organizer, Guardian ad Litem, Therapeutic Foster Parent, Interventionist, Restorative Justice Practitioner, facilitator, trainer, and Healer.

A self proclaimed agent of change and persuasion, J’s personal commitment and approach to life aligns with community accountability, Structural Reconstruction, and the belief that “one day change gonna come.”

Learn more about the Florida Restorative Justice Coalition and the upcoming Down South Restorative Justice Conference at FRJA.org

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
I'm your host.
David Ryan by Sega CastroHarris All five names for all
the ancestors.
So we'll start with Jay.
Welcome.
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thank you.
Who am I?
I'm gonna say I'm a mother.
Who are you?
I am a Restorative JusticePractitioner.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
I am a lover of all things fabulous and fun.
Who are you?
I am a teacher.
Who are you?
I am a development director fororganizations.

(00:56):
Who are you?
I am funny.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Finally, for now, who are you?
I?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
am a woman identified as black living in the United
States of America.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Beautiful, beautiful.
Today's episode is the first ina short series that we're doing
highlighting the work ofrestorative justice in the South
.
Typically, guests here on thispodcast come from California and
Chicago, both because that iswhere I have lived and grown up
doing this work.
And of course, we've got peoplein New York, people in Colorado

(01:40):
, people in the Bay Area, peoplein the Pacific Northwest, got
some people in Texas.
Some of those folks, some ofthose places that are like, seen
as hotbeds, oh, like the DCarea, right, seen as hotbeds for
restorative justice.
We've had someone on fromGeorgia, had someone on from
Alabama.
So shout out to Danny, shoutout to Jasmine.
But you know, I think up front,jay, you reached out to say

(02:03):
like, hey, we want to build withfolks doing restorative justice
work in the South, and so tellthe listeners a little bit about
you know why it was importantfor you to come on here, and you
know, talk about the conferencethat's coming up.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Thank you for asking that question.
Yeah, one of the key thingsthat we found, especially as
legislation is changing in theSouth, is that restorative
justice as a tool has been herebut people don't ever talk about
it.
I remember when we were firsthaving our conversation, david
and you were naming all thoseplaces that you just named and I
was like but that's what I'mtalking about.
You didn't say anything aboutthe South and the work is being

(02:43):
done here.
There are people here that arecommitted to it.
The work has been happeningsince, like initial
appropriations with the balanceand restorative justice, where
Florida was actually chosen asone of the lead states to be
able to develop out what we callneighborhood accountability
boards in communities.

(03:03):
We had over 17 of theminitially and it whittled down
over the years as we lostfunding.
But there have been a committedgroup of people who are doing
the work of restorative justice.
Restorative justice practicesin our schools, in applications
within the criminal legal system, within the limitations that we

(03:24):
have in our communities, in ourcorporations, and we're excited
to share that.
I'm the executive co directorof the Florida restorative
justice association, which is anassociation of individuals who
are working to do to buildawareness about restorative

(03:44):
justice, restorative justicepractices and the applications
in their lives.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
So, yeah, I think I hope I answered the questions
that you asked and we'll getinto the nuances of some of
those things in a bit, but wealso have a gathering of folks
that you want to invite peopleto tell us about what's
happening in October.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
And that is critical.
So the Florida restorativejustice association typically
hosts a annual conference and,of course, because of COVID, we
were unable to do that, but it's2023, we're back out in the
streets, we outside, and so weare calling together people in
central Florida in October be onthe weekend of the 20th through

(04:26):
the 22nd to the down southrestorative justice conference
RJ the remix and we are invitingall types of people from all of
the different industrieseducation, academia, excuse me,
academia, education, same thing.
The criminal legal system, ourcommunity healers, our, our,

(04:52):
anybody who infuses restorativejustice practice into their live
and then life work to convenein central Florida at the Warren
Willis Center, where we canjust share knowledge with each
other and continue to build.
And this year it's particularlyinteresting because we've
extended the invitations, wherewe typically have folks that are
doing the work just in Florida.

(05:13):
We've extended the invitationto our neighboring southern
southern states because we wantto develop out a southern
restorative justice networkwhere we really are building on
and creating and buildingresources together with one
another.
So excited for that, excitedfor October, excited for people
to come to central Florida.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Absolutely and, of course, like the link will be to
that down in the show notes orin the description, wherever
you're listening or watchingthis.
But let's talk about the workthat you all have been doing.
You know the words restorativejustice are rather new.
When we think about, you know,the life of, let's say, the

(05:54):
United States or the life ofFlorida.
Right In the last coupledecades, the words restorative
justice have been formallyintroduced as alternative to the
punitive criminal legal system,as alternatives to punitive or
push out school disciplinemeasures.
But we all know thatrestorative justice has deeper
roots in indigenous values ofinterconnection, and so you've

(06:18):
been doing restorative justicework for a minute.
But how does this work getstarted for you even before you
knew the words are sort ofjustice.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
I love hearing that question when people say that to
me, because I answer with I'm amiddle child, so anybody who
knows about the practice and hasolder brothers I have an older
brother and a younger brother.
I'm the middle girl and sothere was always opportunities,
even just in my young person, asa part of my cultural practice,

(06:50):
to be in the.
Let's get this information,let's like really get to the
bottom of what it is that myolder brothers, when they were
terrorizing me, was doing.
It's just a way of life.
And then I became more formallyengaged in restorative practice

(07:12):
work and still wasn't callingit that in the early.
Let's see, in early 2014 and 15,where I started working with
the National Cares MentoringMovement and Alternative School
Systems with young people and wewere calling together circles
and we were asking those youngpeople to share their stories

(07:32):
about how they came to be at theAlternative School System.
Not everybody works in thetraditional school system and as
we were doing that and as wewere sharing these impact
stories and we were talkingabout the history of these young
people, I became more aware andthe buzzword restorative
justice started to become moreprevalent.

(07:54):
I became more aware that thisnatural cultural practice, this
indigenous practice that we'redoing of like doing circles,
doing libations, creatingcontainers for people to share
their information that this iswhat was now being called and
coined restorative justice, andthere started to be
organizations that were sayingthat we're gonna train you in

(08:15):
this practice.
That has been integral to whatI've known in my community for
forever that I was just doing.
Naturally, that being said,full force, we're looking at who
in community is also creatingthese opportunities for people
to come together and havedialogue.
And then that's when I found myway into this group of people

(08:36):
who are doing this thing calledrestorative justice out here in
Florida, the Florida RestorativeJustice Association.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Jay, tell me about Frjad, tell me about your role
in this work.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
So, yeah, so we call it Frjad and we like to say it
with a little bit of a sprinkleand that stands for the Florida
Restorative Justice Association,and we're an organization of
individuals in Florida whoreally are just advocating for
the application of restorativejustice and the practices
throughout any part of your life.
The actual mission it's kind ofboring to like read out a

(09:08):
mission, but we are too workingto expand the understanding and
the use of restorative justiceand restorative practices and
promote diverse approaches toconflict resolution, community
building and effectivecommunication in all systems and
organizations, particularlythroughout Florida.
So my entry into the work withFlorida Restorative Justice is

(09:29):
really comes from the conferencethat I was speaking of earlier.
That we'll be hosting inOctober, but in 2018, I believe
was the first conference thatFrjad was gonna be holding and I
wasn't able to go to theconference, but I heard when

(09:49):
people came back from theconference that it was amazing
we had.
There was a presentation by agentleman, michael McBride,
whose son is currentlyincarcerated for murdering his
girlfriend when they were ateenager, and they tell the
story of.
They requested and asked for arestorative justice process to

(10:10):
happen and it was like one ofthe first processes that was
allowed to happen in Florida.
That intrigued me.
I also was intrigued by I was.
This is actually where I met Q.
I was in a fellowship, atransformative justice
fellowship, and those people whowere running that fellowship

(10:33):
they were presenting at theconference as well that 2018
conference.
I was really mad that I wasn'table to attend.
And then in 2020, they had thesecond conference and that was
in Fort Lauderdale.
I was in town, I went with mylittle young, 16 year old, and
during that conference, theywere talking about standards at
the time developing standardsand I was like, whoa, hold up a

(10:53):
second.
If we talk about restorativejustice, how are we talking
about developing standards?
Because that could createlimitations for a large network
of people.
I was able to go to what at oneof the sessions that they were
having I'm an intro to RJbecause, again, I was with my
young teenager person and Ithought that that would be
really important for her tolearn about the practice as a

(11:14):
young person going to school inFlorida and we were sitting in
that circle with police officers.
We were sitting in that circlewith school officials.
We were sitting in that circlewith therapists and case workers
working with the incarceratedand I was like yo, this is a

(11:35):
dope, really intersectionalgroup of human beings that are
talking about RJ in a reallycommitted way and in a way that
I also aligned with in mypriorities.
So I was like, well, let me seewhat they about.
And then, of course, I wasgonna be a part of this whole
standards conversation because Iwas like really feeling away
about that.
And then there were also anopen community and network of

(11:57):
people.
So it was like, coming to thisconference, if you didn't have
the capacity to meet thefinancial requirements of the
conference, this is the one.
Back then, same situation forthe one that's coming up.
They were like pay what you canif you wanna be a member
sliding fee scale.
So I was like, okay, these aremy kind of people.
They understand that we wannareduce the barriers.

(12:20):
And then I became reallycommitted to the work and to
this conversations about what itis that we were creating and
what was kind of the impetus fordeveloping these guidelines,
and come to find out that therewas also an apaga report that
was released during that timethat had done a review of
restorative practices in Floridaand then in states and talked

(12:40):
about what the effectiveness wasand growth edges of the work,
and so that was like theintersection.
The legislators during thattime said we need to have
something that would give ussome kind of guides about what
we should be doing with thispractice, though they had
already had Florida statues that, like I was speaking about

(13:05):
earlier in the podcast from thebalance and restorative justice,
but because that work haddwindled out from lack of
resources, it was like are-igniting of the work on a
policy level and so, yeah,starting to have those
conversations with 30 committedpeople that were on the call,

(13:28):
sending in resources from theirspecific area of interest.
So we had people from criminal,legal sending in information
about how they were doing thepractice.
We had people from theeducational community, we had
people from community communitysending in information about how
they would be doing restorativepractice, and then we had to
figure out a way of collectingthat information and developing

(13:51):
something that would beaccessible to a large number of
people.
And we're in Florida, so, likewe in the South-South, I'm in
Miami, so I'm in what we like tojoke about being North Cuba, so
it's a little bit differentculturally, but then when you're
going up deeper, up intocentral and North we really do
get really elements of the Southand conservatism.

(14:15):
We have a huge criminal legalsystem and lots of prisons and a
kind of punitive culture here.
So for me it was a superchallenge to figure out if we
are offering to our state a wayto think about and engage

(14:35):
restorative justice andrestorative practice.
What is that gonna look like asfar as developing equity?
And that was my like major pushin participating in that whole
process.
That did take about two yearsfor us to get our first edition
of guidelines going.
That was my love relationshipthat developed with Frigiat and

(14:56):
from that has developed into mebecoming the executive director
of excuse me, the executiveco-director, because I do have a
partner in justice I don'twanna say crime, but a partner
in justice doing this work whichhas become a part of my passion
.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, what stands out to me, even when you
reached out, is like I was notsurprised that restorative
justice was happening in Florida.
Right, and I am sure mostpeople who are listening to this
aren't necessarily surprised bythat either.
Right, this work has existedacross all of our people in

(15:35):
formal and informal ways for along time.
But when we're thinking aboutthe ways that y'all come
together as an organization, asa community, to do work in a
state that stereotypicallywouldn't be welcoming to this
kind of work, for lack of betterwords, right, what are the
difficulties you've run into intrying to for lack of a better

(16:00):
word, like amplify restorativejustice in Florida?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, no, that's the right thing.
And it is difficult becausethere is a culture that is used
to focusing on punitive measuresas a response to harm.
I'm not born and raised in theSouth, so I migrated here from
actually California in 2009.

(16:24):
And knowing that there's acomparable large amount of the
criminal legal system in prisonsjust per se in California and
in Florida, but seeing theapproach to harm, it was just
like put everybody in prison.

(16:46):
I think that we have thelargest amount of young people
children that are actuallyincarcerated in our system in
Florida in adult prisons.
That's a statistic that'sreally well known.
So there are a tremendousamount of barriers to doing this
work and the biggest barrierthat I have found is in the

(17:07):
language and people having anunderstanding about exactly what
RJ is and what RJ isn't, andthen also trying to build
bridges amongst people who wouldhave different orientations to
thinking about responses to harm.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Is the way that I'm.
Yeah, what's interesting for meto think about is I'm calling
my conversation with Joel Friesfrom the National Association of
Community and RestorativeJustice in that aired, I think
last spring before the NACRJconference.
And when you're doing work on astatewide, national level with

(17:49):
people who are supporting workthat they call restorative
justice, that means a lot ofdifferent things to a lot of
different people.
You know I ask this questionoften towards the end, but how
do you, jay, define restorativejustice and how does that differ
from you know, some of theother ways that this work has
been done in Floridahistorically.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, I, restorative justice for me is about being
able to make amends for harm.
So that's the justice componentof it.
The practice component of it,which is the transformative part
, is relationship building, andI really think about

(18:32):
relationship building in thecontext, again, of like the
cultural components of the waypeople exist in Florida.
I'm in Miami again, so it's avery transient community.
There's people that are flowingand migrating through Miami,
staying, not staying, andthere's always, there's always

(18:53):
some type of intersectionalthing happening and there's a
history of people like mashingup against each other and having
conflict, and then there's ahistory of like people working
things out.
When it comes to a big musicparty that comes, that happens
down here and everybody is out,and so it's also about a way of

(19:18):
life, a way of being.
So restorative justice,restorative practice, is in the
doing and not in any type of aprocess that is like mandated to
go a certain way, and so I meanthat wasn't like one of those
clear, definable definitions ofrestorative justice and

(19:40):
restorative justice practices,because it's a human condition
and I don't think that there'sanything that's clearly
definable about that other thanthe fact that we have the
opportunity to be relationshipbuilding with one another and by
relationship building doesn'tmean that we're all you know,
koon, bye yah and everybody getsalong.
It means that we are creatingcontainers where we can have

(20:01):
conversations, where we can havea better understanding about
how somebody is coming, whattheir point of view and
perspective and coming intoaddressing harm or conflict, and
that's the entire spectrum ofthat.
I like to I wanna say that I'vecoined a phrase the new VIP,

(20:22):
because we are in a time rightnow where violence is so
prevalent and so many of ourdifferent communities and
violence in a number of contexts.
So I was reading some DanielSared and a whole bunch of other
people who were talking aboutthe different cycles of violence
and people's entry intoviolence and I was like we're

(20:45):
all violence impacted people.
So we are the VIPs in this time.
We're very important peoplebecause we are all violence
impacted in some way.
We've either done violence tosomeone in some way or we've
experienced it just because ofthe way that our culture exists
at this point in time, and sothinking about that really pulls

(21:05):
forth a lot of compassion toreally wanna have some
understanding as to what aperson's entry level into their
violence impact is, so that thenwe can figure out what the
solutions are and how we canmake amends.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Right.
And so when you're talkingabout, like, the difficulty of
doing this work in your space,primarily being like what is it
that we're asking people toshift to right?
Is it that you're asking peopleto shift into like, hey, ask
these questions when there'sconflict and harm instead of

(21:40):
just locking kids up, or is itlike let's shift to this other
way of being, becauserestorative justice is used both
the ways?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, there is this tension.
I would like to call myselfreconstructionist and as a
reconstructionist, I want toimagine and envision a different
way of dealing with harm, and Ithink that the tool, the
critical tool for us to be ableto do that is through
restorative justice andrestorative justice practices.

(22:12):
So that is asking the questions, but it also is about bringing
in the people who are impactedinto the process so that they
can have a conversation aboutaccountability and developing
and creating real safety.
In the way that our systemexists now, we have a large
amount of recidivism and itdoesn't matter in what context

(22:36):
we're talking about.
So if it's in the educationalcontext and we have a young
person who is exhibitingbehaviors and we discipline that
young person withoutunderstanding the root of what
those behaviors are, then thatperson's behavior is gonna
continue.
You're not creating safety forthe young person who is supposed
to be being supported in theirdevelopment, in their life, but

(22:59):
then you're also not creatingsafety for the classroom
environment, for the schoolenvironment, because you have a
person that's walking around,that is not having their needs
met, hence exhibiting behaviors.
We see a lot of recidivismcoming through the criminal
legal system.
We see a lot of people gettingunjustly fired or having
disciplinary actions in theircorporate jobs and then losing

(23:20):
their desire to even wanna showup and actually produce in a
really effective way within thecapitalistic context of working
in corporate America, and sorestorative justice and
restorative practice in all ofthose contexts gives us an
opportunity to get to the rootof how do we create environments

(23:41):
that allow people to feel likethey are safe enough to be able
to thrive and produce the mosteffectively, be it that there
need to be learning, be it theirneed to not create what we
defined as punishable crimes,harm and or to be effective
workers in their jobs.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, and I think that's a really nuanced
conversation that we get to haveon a community level and when
you've built relationships withfolks, but on an entry level,
when you're introducing theframework of restorative justice
to folks and maybe morepointedly, saying like for me,

(24:22):
saying like you know, theFlorida restorative justice
sorry, frisiat, you know like isinclusive of so many people who
are doing work from so manydifferent perspectives, some of
them just really focused on likehey, let's stop this punishment
, but not necessarily, what arethe ways that we are like
transforming the conditionsunder which this is happening?

(24:44):
And I've been maybe like notasking this in the most direct
way, but I've heard you talkabout like all the different
ways that restorative justicecan be a part of what you're
doing.
And I think, like this isn'tnecessarily unique to Florida,
but in like a stereotypicalSouth that is rooted in like the
remnants of chattel slavery,right, and like all of these

(25:07):
things, right, we still haveagents of the state, right,
police who are using words likerestorative justice to do work
that, like I think is likeactually more harmful than like
Calling something restorativejustice while as, while acting
as an arm of the state, is hardto reconcile because like yeah,

(25:28):
you're doing this one actionhere and we encourage like every
individual in their day-to-daylives, as a parent, as a Family
member, as a friend, as acolleague, to be in restorative
relationship with people, butthen to say like hey, we're
gonna throw this restorativeprocess in the midst of, like
this criminal legal system thatis Stacked against you and like

(25:49):
exist for your oppression Toyoung people of color, to adults
of color, to people who arecoming into contact with that
criminal legal system For justor unjust reasons.
Like how do you reconcile thatwithin you know the scope of For
?

Speaker 2 (26:05):
job that?
That is a brilliant questionbecause it's a real lived
experience tension, right to sitin a space to to walk into a
room.
First of all, there's a there'sa lot of tensions I have.
When I first was introducedinto Florida restorative justice
association for job, I Feltlike the leadership of that
space was heavily privileged,non-marginalized community

(26:29):
member humans, right.
So, like you're walking into aspace of people talking about
this process and where the mostimpacted people were not in the
leadership of how that processshould be actually administered
and executed, and we are sittingin a space where agents of the
state are Talking about thisterm restorative practice and

(26:49):
restorative justice.
The way that I reconcile thattension is I I'm going to say
it's.
It's because I really want tobe a person who is Living Almost
authentically to the practicethat I am asking everybody else
to participate in, right, and I,and I also am super curious as

(27:14):
to how do you come into thiswork.
So, when I went to that Floridarestorative justice Association
conference in 2020, right beforeCOVID started, and I'm sitting
in a circle with two or threepolice officers Representing the
uniform rather than repping,that is, editing themselves as a
person sitting in circle andthen hearing how the process of

(27:40):
being in in a restorativeprocess that these officers
actually participated in Changedthe way that they approached,
how they were doing the work andthe way that they Approached
when there was a call in theircommunity that they had to go
and respond to.
That was the moment where I wasjust like Appreciating how, for

(28:02):
Ja in particular, provides anopportunity for us to sit with
folks that I would traditionallynot be thinking about.
I've had experience with policethat that the institution does
not support any form ofrestorative practice, but being
able to sit in a circle withthese people who were

(28:22):
representing the institution andhear how them learning about
restorative practice andactually being a part of a
process Transformed how theywere doing the work, was
something, as areconstructionist is the hope,
because the system exists rightnow and I am also, you know I
don't know if it's old school,new school or whatever, but I am

(28:44):
a person of like inside-outsidestrategy.
Having more people that Adoptthis as a practice and a way of
life will, in my hopes, wildestdreams, big Beyonce thinking
Transform from the inside howpeople respond when they're

(29:07):
called, you know, to To dealwith something in community, and
I also like to think about.
I also think about this.
This is bringing up Anexperience that I've had, going
door knocking in community andspecifically in predominantly

(29:29):
black communities here, libertyCity in Florida, and saying and
asking the question of you know,what does safety look like to
you?
Do you want to like have policein your communities or do you
want to a police-free community?
And People really looking at meat the barbershop, I was at the
barbershop for like four hourshaving a conversation with the
fellas about you know, nothaving police.

(29:49):
And they were like are youcrazy?
We need police officers.
And I was like can we start toimagine a different way of being
and Recognizing that evenwithin communities that I feel
directly aligned with, that theyare not exposed to alternative.
So community is not exposed toalternative, the institution is
not exposed to alternative andthe impetus is for us to Create

(30:17):
ways where there's moreopportunities for people to be
exposed to a different way ofDealing with harm.
That's happening, that actuallyhas Better results and I truly
100% believe restorativepractice allows for that.
And I've also, as being a partof for Ja, been able to come
into contact.
I've come into contact withprosecutors who have gotten to

(30:39):
sit in a Violent crimerestorative practice case
because we do have a leadingpractitioner out here who does,
who specifically focuses onviolent, violent offenses and to
hear those prosecutors say Iwent through this process and it
completely Changed the way thatI think about doing my job as a

(31:02):
prosecutor.
Those are Just like kind of theseeds that give me hope that
the more people that start toLearn about the process, the
more transformation we have.
Because, again, I'm coming froma place where it's rooted in
relationship building.
If we're starting to talk thesame language with each other,
then there's greater opportunityfor us to get to know each

(31:23):
other, then there's greateropportunity for us to build a
different way of being.
Then what is existing?

Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, I am really reflective of you know the, the
words that have come out of mymouth over the last almost three
years on these airwaves, thethings that I've said publicly
about you know, being anabolitionist right and Setting
personal boundaries of, like thework that amplify RJ will do
and not do.

(31:52):
Right, because I think a lot ofwhat you're talking to Makes
sense to me on the level of like, hey, individuals are still the
people who are making up thesesystems and there are people
Like and is it better that thisperson doesn't?
This person playing the role ofpolice officer today does not
stop and frisk a Per, likesomebody walking home with their

(32:14):
hoodie, right, is it harmreductive that people ask what
happened instead of you knowwhat did you do?
Right, assuming guilt in inthose circumstances?
Yes, and I can be hopeful ofthat.
I think I jump forward a lot inmy head to like the logical
conclusion of you fullyembodying this work, like You're

(32:37):
no longer an agent of the statein that way, right, both as a
prosecutor and as a as a as apolice officer.
Right, like how do you stand anintegrity with values of
restorative justice and still dothe daily work of you know
terrorizing communities.
Let's call it what it is Right,and I'm not saying that like
everybody like I'm not sayingeverybody who is a police

(32:59):
officer wakes up in the morningand says, like how am I going to
fuck up somebody's day today?
I know that's not what the vastmajority of police officers or
states attorneys wake up to saythat they're going to do.
This is the impact of the workthat you do, right?
And I hear the communityargument about, hey, we need

(33:20):
these structures because wedon't have anything better.
And yes, we would rather havefriendlier police, more
restorative police than peoplewho are just coming kicking
doors down and overtlyterrorizing our neighborhoods,
our communities.
Like that's important and like,as the co executive director of
this organization that isleading restorative justice work

(33:41):
, or convening folks to talkabout restorative justice, how
do we balance meeting peoplewhere they're at and like
standing in values of likeabolition and we'll meet you
where you're at, but like thisis the vision.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
I in the context of the question, I can only speak
to my perspective because I cansay in full transparency that I
don't know.
I would not say that everybodywho is as part of the of Frisiat
or the Florida Association, theJustice Association, is an
abolitionist at all.

(34:19):
We have a lot of academicpeople, we have a lot of people,
like I said.
We have, you know, people thathave coming from state
attorney's office and all ofthose people into space.
What I will say is that when weare convening spaces, when we
do have our monthly meeting andwe're hearing from somebody who

(34:43):
was incarcerated for, you know,25 years on a violent offense,
who is out now, who is doingadvocacy for the community that
they're aligned with, and theysay, hey, you know language
justice is necessary when we'respeaking about formerly
incarcerated humans to use thislanguage and then, during the

(35:07):
course of that call here,somebody adjusting how they talk
about victim, offender and thelanguage that they're using and
then incorporating that languagejustice is the thing that me
personally, as one of theleaders of the organization,
wants to continue to seebuilding, as we're developing
relationships in community, andthen that also means for me that

(35:32):
they're going to bring bringingthat back to that community of
direct example is that we hadthe opportunity to do a training
to with the Florida Associationand criminal defense lawyers,
the League of prosecutors, somejudges, and that was a training
that they came to us and askedus to provide for them because

(35:53):
of the relationships of thepeople that are associated with
the organization and who are onour board.
But they wanted us to providethem a training so that they had
more knowledge about whatrestorative justice laws existed
, how those laws have beenapplied, how judges in the
courtroom are thinking aboutrestorative justice, or when
restorative justice is broughtup by somebody who's been harmed

(36:14):
and they say that I want toprocess legally, what are the
ways that those processes couldgo forward when those
conversations are happening andthose type of relationships are
being built out.
That is how I reconcile what itlooks like to be, you know, to
be rooted as a person who, whoyou know, is a study and I will

(36:34):
claim socialist and I I, I'mshifting the term abolition
Because I'm, I'm, I've donestudy enough to realize that I'm
more aligned with this conceptof reconstructionism in the
developing of the world, that wewant to be an existing.
And when I think about what myvision and hope is for the, the

(37:00):
police institution.
It would be to have.
I did a campaign before wherewe're talking about the
difference between a peaceofficer and a police officer.
Right, and so for a peaceofficer, it's this idea of
somebody who is connected tocommunity, that is accountable,

(37:21):
that is responsive rather thanreactive, somebody that's trauma
informed rather than usingexcessive force, or police
informed.
Somebody that would not try torestrain somebody in community
when they're responding tosomebody, says something,
somebody who listens rather thanmakes assumptions, somebody who
is really focused on deescalating an issue rather than

(37:44):
escalating it.
Somebody who is there toprotect people first and not
property first, because we'reseeing that with a lot of our
policing institutions.
Somebody that is there, thatwill know the laws to know how
to enforce them for the safetyof humans rather than bending
the law, which is what we see alot of police officers doing,

(38:07):
right, because they're justusing force and aggression and a
lot of their responsiveness inparticular communities.
That they would practice againrestorative justice rather than
punitive justice, and that theywould try to be in the work of
preventing crime rather thanfighting crime, which is like
the language that comes out oflike the policing institution.

(38:29):
So if we are creatingopportunities where we can bring
enough people to the table thatspeak again to what I spoke
about earlier the violent impactthat people are having then we
can, textually, are creating andcultivating a more safe and
accountable environment for ouractual human relations and

(38:51):
interactions with one another.
If somebody is thinking about,I'm thinking about young people
in school.
If a young person in school isobserving a behavior and a
reserving a punitive response tothat behavior, that is not the
thing that's determined.
Most of the time I'veexperienced and observe young
people will be like damn man,that's not fair and if I'm gonna
do it, I'm gonna do it anyway.
You know, because I alreadyknow what the thing is going to

(39:13):
be.
But if that young person isseeing that a behavior results
in, all right, we're gonna stopfor a minute.
All right, we're going to pullthe whole group of people who
are impacted okay, we're goingto talk about what this behavior
is doing to actually impact itand we're going to also hold you
accountable to all of us willbe impacted by the behavior that
is really transformative inthis nature, just by having to,

(39:35):
not having to, but just bychoosing to be a part of that
type of a process and that's howI reconciled it in my position
as the executive co director.
Whenever we are buildingsomething out, I'm thinking
about what equity looks like forall of the people who are again
violence impacted.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
All of the people, and I and I come from a context
of we all are like thatreflection and reframe is
helpful, going from likereconstructionist and like
meeting people were that becauselike that is what we have to do
from abolitionist and beinglike purist in that and you know
everybody has their, theirlines where they draw them and,
as the co executive director ofthis organization, that is

(40:15):
trying to be like as inclusiveas possible, that people who are
like really trying to start tolearn this work and be in a
relationship together in adifferent way, like it's really
important.
I think a lot about when wehave young people in a school or
young people anywhere who isexhibiting a behavior that's
causing harm, right, and youknow, is it the expectation that

(40:38):
they will immediately transformand never do that thing again
ever?
Right, probably not, even whenthey're like called into it,
like in the most restorative way.
Right, we need to be inrelationship with folks in order
to move forward and help peoplebe in right relationship with
themselves, their community, etc.
Right, if we think about likesomebody signing up to be a

(41:02):
police officer, right, withwhatever intentions they had,
right, and causing harm and x, y, z way.
Or even like as a state'sattorney, as a judge and you
know, whatever role that youplay in locking up and, you know
, isolating our communitymembers.
Right, that's not going to bean overnight like oh my gosh,
like I'm going to stop thatimmediately.
There are, there are steps tothat and we kind of just have to

(41:25):
live with.
That's not the energy that I'mcalled to do, that's not the
energy that I carry goingthrough the world, and so, like
I'm really grateful for otherswho are doing that work.
So, thank you.
The question that I wanted toask that you, you know, started
to voices like there are somethings on the books, there are
some laws on the books, there'ssome policies that exist that

(41:47):
are more conducive torestorative justice and you know
as problematic as that is whenyou know the state is involved
in like saying, like you can dorestorative justice this way and
only this way, this is what islegal and you can't do it any
other way.
Like that's problematic.
But what are the things thatyou've seen in Florida?
What are the things that youall are advocating for now?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Thank you for that.
That question, because it isone of our primary campaigns
that we are working on, isreally raising awareness about
what the legislative limitationsand possibilities are.
So the limitations is that onthe Florida statues you can
participate in a restorativepractice if you are a first time

(42:33):
offender, which is typicallyjuveniles, and it really falls
into some type of diversionarycategory.
So it's not even.
It doesn't even hold the actualprinciples of restorative
justice, is not voluntary, it'snot.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
It's diversion, like it's done, sorry, and if we like
like, I wish we could just likecall it that like across the
country, like everything that isbeing not everything.
Most things that I have seenbeing legislated and like
labeled restorative justice likeis diversion and like hey, I'm
all for those harm reductiveprograms that like are keeping

(43:12):
people out of jail and prisonBeautiful, but don't call it
restorative justice when it'snot.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, no, it's literally diversion.
So, like we do have to if we'rehad, if we're purists, right
about the practice.
Again, here we go into like,where your entry point is into
the cycle of violence, right andlike.
And where can you do the workthat like creates the least
amount of tension withinyourself, right?

(43:38):
So within our Florida statutes,like stay on focus.
There was the opportunity to begetting funding and utilizing it
for these neighborhoodaccountability boards, and the
neighborhood accountabilityboards that were developed and

(44:01):
had this federal funding reallywere operating as closely and
not so much as diversionaryprograms, because they did have
the voluntary component of it.
They did have the, the makingsure that all community members
were, you know, pulled into theprocess.
It was other than the peoplewho are running the program, it

(44:22):
was volunteers who were actuallydoing the work.
So it really was an intentionalcommitment to an alternative
process and it wasn't there toactually participate in any
neighborhood accountabilityboards.
So I'm just going off of whatI've read in the reports of the
people who were doing the work.
They did this wonderful bookletwhere it wasn't even quanta

(44:43):
quantitative reflections, it wasactually qualitative
reflections, where they weretaught, telling the stories of
the processes that they wentthrough and what the
transformation and the outcomeswere.
So it was a wonderful way ofbeing able to share the benefits
of the practice.
But right now, because thelimitations go to these

(45:06):
neighborhood accountabilityboards that are not being funded
, and because it's for a firsttime you know offenders, we are
asking for some things thatwould allow more opportunities
for people to enter into aprocess and a practice and then
also being you know, to talkabout the fact that when harm
initially happens, nobody, mostpeople are not ready to just

(45:28):
jump right into a process.
Right, because you really doneed to be very intentional
about all of the elements thatgo on to to getting success, and
success meaning that peoplehave gone through the process,
and not success that there's aparticular outcome.
Again, we're talking about ahuman process that takes time
and takes many attempts.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
So we are asking for you like just on that, like who
would possibly argue againstthat?
Right, and like I know thepeople who would argue against
that on its face.
But like even that part whereyou said, like you know, most
people in the moment can't,can't, get into that restorative

(46:12):
space, like take accountability, blah, blah, blah, but is
locking them up, doing that forthem either?
Right, right, and so like, okay, so if that's not doing it,
like what are we expecting?
Like just troubling that onepiece.
If there is the pushback of youknow well, we can't do it in the

(46:32):
moment, we can't respond to theproblem and fix it right away,
it's like you're not fixing theproblem anyway, right, you're
just putting somebody in adulttime out, right, like that's
that piece where thatreimagining of, like what's
supposed to happen, right, cause, like I'm not saying that there
isn't a time and place wherepeople need to be removed from

(46:55):
their community where they'recausing harm, there's probably a
way, like in whatever formationof community safety that we
think about, there's probably aspace for people to not be in
the community that they wereterrorizing or causing harm in.
Like, I'm not absolving anybodyof, like the harm that they're
causing, right, sometimes people, people who have been impacted
and need space from the peoplewho have been causing them harm,

(47:16):
and that can look like what wethink of as jail detention or
like any of these, likediversion programs or camps like
that we have in California, but, like, the way that we get to
that is important, right, likereally focusing on the needs of
people instead of saying this iswhat you're being accused of or
like this is what you gotcaught doing, go sit in adult

(47:39):
timeout until we figure out whatto do with you.
Right, until we can, like proveit to the letter law or until,
like, you take this plea deal,right Like.
There is just something that,like, I wanted to highlight
because what you said wasimportant and I didn't want to
like get lost before you, likeyou added on to that next level.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, no, I think that that is a critical
component.
So I'd like to go back to, like, the indigenous technology when
we're thinking about right,removing people who have created
harm, and this concept I don'tknow which country or people out
of Africa, because there's allkinds of conflicting things
about it but this concept ofUbuntu right, where you're

(48:22):
calling in people rather thanexcluding them and pulling them
out, and so, even if it's thepeople who are directly impacted
by the harm can't be in spacetogether, there is an
opportunity for community who isimpacted, who is like once, and
to remove from it, to call theperson in that has created the
harm and really sit down andaddress what those things are,

(48:46):
even if it's not like okay, Ipunched you in the face person.
You know I can't sit in theroom with you because I'm gonna
try to punch you in the faceback just because we're humans.
But, like you could sit in theroom with the person's community
faith-based leader who will sayyo, I know that A, b and C had

(49:07):
this impact.
Did you know that this?
Now, they got punched in theface, which means that they
couldn't go to work, but theyworked with somebody who is
inconsiderate and now they firedand so now they don't have a
job.
So now their face is busted,but they also don't have a job,
you know, like to be able to dothat component of where our
criminal legal system does notallow for people to be held in
accountability.

(49:29):
I work with a lot of people whohave lost their loved ones in
the carceral system.
They get zero answers, zeroaccountability.
And I remember, you know, as arestorative practitioner, I was
like wouldn't you want to, youwant to face the correctional
officer who you believe wasdirect or you found was directly

(49:53):
involved in the loss of yourloved one?
Wouldn't you want to confrontthem?
And they were like, no, I wantthem to be, I want them to have
the same outcome as my loved one.
I want them to, you know, bedead too.
And so I was just like I hearyou, I feel you, I'm.
You know, I understand, I'mcompassionate towards your
expression, but imagine if thatperson was required to, if that

(50:18):
person, not required, entersinto a voluntary process where
they explain to you what wasgoing through your mind at that
moment, that they have to cometo your house every single day
at a time that you designate,and I was making stuff up and
wash your car in the way thatyou want to wash your car and
give you $100 every time thatthey come for a period of time

(50:39):
and you get to and they, youknow, had to look at your son's
picture in the way that you wantthem to and if you wanted them
to write a poem like would youfeel more complete in that than
just that person being dead?
And I didn't get a response inthat moment, but I got a pause,

(51:02):
I got a hmm, I had not eventhought about that because I'm
so right now seeped in the painof my loss, but it was like the
first time that I got a aharesponsiveness.
And this is after being oncalls with this person on a
weekly basis for almost anentire year to say, okay,

(51:25):
there's another way of thinkingabout that, and I think that
that is the critical thing thatwe, as folks to understand the
process, can do, so we can dropseeds of a different way of
being.
That is a way of being that weknow worked more effectively
than what we have existing rightnow.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Sharing this work and inviting people into embracing
this kind of work has a lot ofconsiderations, because
everybody has differentorientations towards, everyone
has different orientationstowards violence.
Everyone's had differentexperiences with violence and
harm and at the intersections oftheir identity, power,
privilege, et cetera.
Right, they're going to thinkone way specifically.

(52:06):
Right, even people who havebeen impacted by violence by the
criminal legal system likestill might experience, like
this need for revenge, this needfor punishment, because that is
the society that we live in.
Right, we're inviting peopleand I think that was a beautiful
example that you gave toreimagine if it could be
different, whether or not thatcould happen, for lots of legal

(52:30):
reasons and the personal reasonsof that specific corrections
officer.
Right, like that might not be apossibility for that person,
but, like the ability to thinkabout, like, oh, this is an
alternative that would actuallyhelp me get to what I need, not
just like, yeah, that person'sdead and now their family is

(52:50):
suffering the way that I havesuffered.
Right, that's important tochallenge people to think about.
I'm curious, right, as youthink about inviting people into
more community.
Right, specifically in theSouth, but you know we're
talking across the country.
How are you wanting people toconnect with Frjá, your work and

(53:16):
the ways that you wanna besupported.
Yes, the conference, but whatare some of the other ways to
connect and do this work?

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah.
So the thing I'm really excitedabout that we get some really
good feedback and response to isthe guidelines for facilitation
and training that we developedout, and I am a particular
advocate because of the amountof work that we put into
developing it and knowing whatthat process took.

(53:44):
But I really do believe that ifpeople go and visit our website,
wwwfrjacom that's Frjá or youcan spell it out Florida
Restorative Justice Associationit'll also populate and you go
on there and you click on ourguidelines and offer us feedback
about what you think about thelanguaging, about the

(54:04):
consideration about the equitythat is woven into the thought
process of what it would take todo the facilitation training
but then evolve that into yourown practice of facilitating a
restorative process.
I think that that is what Iwould love for people to be able
to utilize as a resource andgive us feedback about so that

(54:26):
we can put out more additionsthat have additional
considerations included Inaddition to building together to
model, so that we are givingourselves the opportunity to
have more legislation to supportthe work, and with that
legislation comes funding andall of the things right.

(54:46):
So I know that the carceralsystem was what 40% on our
dollar that we put into all ofthe punitive and terrorizing our
communities, and so if we arebeing able to get allocations
that could come into this otherway of doing the work then and

(55:10):
people being funded for thatbecause people do have to have
their financial sustainabilitythen I think that we're gonna
have the hedgeways towardsreconstructing the way that we
want to be existing and havecreating our own safety.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
We just got a couple quick hitters to get you out of
here.
They're not always like quick,but as you've been doing this
work, what's been an oh shitmoment and what did you learn
from it?
Now you can take this two wayslike oh shit, I messed up and I
wish I did something different.
Or it could be like oh shit,yeah, I did that and it was

(55:45):
awesome.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Just that dope, though okay, as I'm doing this
work, I think I've gotten toexperience more of the
awesomeness of it.
I can say that down here in theSouth it has taken compassion,
love and patience to be workingwith folks that come from a

(56:08):
specific orientation aroundtheir lives.
So the guidelines there was ayear we did that.
We did that because we wereable to shift this thought
process about creating standards.
We were able to look at ourcolleagues who are friends in
the work, doing what theycreated Colorado, being able to

(56:30):
come to the NACRJ conference andtalk about what it looks like
for a state to develop someinformation for people to build
off of in their respective workand then to get that feedback
from folks.
That it's like.
We really love the way that youprovided a template and
conception for how to do thiswork through the guidelines.

(56:55):
So that's a really that's mylove space, because there was
just so much effort and energyinto it.
What else has been has feltreally good or not so good.
Going through the legislative,educational awareness and
advocacy has been difficult, andit's particularly difficult in

(57:16):
this new administration.
So that's like here we go andhow do we navigate and how do we
get folks that might not sharethe same political philosophies
to just listen, to sit down andlisten and then be strategic
about that.
Right, I'm not the person whocan go and knock on most of our

(57:39):
congressional representativesdoors because they're gonna look
at me and not really desire tohave a conversation.
I'll say that nicely, right?
So then, strategizing on who isin your network that they will
be open to hearing from, andthen really calling on those
people, and then the other dopepart that's oh shit, is that

(58:00):
being able to mobilize a groupof people who, again, have been
traditionally within the contextof the language victims, people
that have been harmed, to comeand say we want to have this
process.
This is a part of our healingjourney.
We want to reach out to thepeople and we want you to
provide us the provisions to beable to do that.

(58:21):
That is like yo.
Okay, we're making headwaysbecause in Florida and
particularly, we have likeMarcy's Law and all of this kind
of stuff.
That is what does move thependulum and the needle, and I'm
glad that we have a space wherethose people feel like they can
reach out and come to and webuild together.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Yeah, yeah, there's so much there, and what that
sparks for me is like over thenext couple of weeks, we're
going to be highlighting somemore of the work that Frigia is
doing.
Some of your colleagues in theSouth are doing so I'm really
grateful that you brought thisto us.
Two more quick hitters andagain, maybe not so quick, you

(59:06):
get to sit in circle with fourpeople, living or dead.
Yes, who are they and what isthe question?
You asked that circle?

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Oh, come on, you got to.
Let me have some time to thinkabout it.
I would want to be inconversation.
I really want to be in aconversation with Ron DeSantis.
I really do.
I really want to sit in acircle with Ron DeSantis and ask
him what happened?

(59:36):
What happened, boo boo.
What happened, what's wrong,what's going on I really do and
have an understanding and thenreally talk about whether or not
there is an understanding aboutthe impacts of the things that
he's pushing forward and thenthe way that he's responding to

(59:57):
them.
That is being elevated on anational level, like what is the
goal and the objective here?
And that's the thing that I canthink of as executive
co-director of a sort of justiceassociation right now, because
there is so much harm.
There's so much harm that'sgoing on.
I would love, then, to even havesome fun of sitting in a circle

(01:00:19):
.
Could you imagine a circle, withPresident Obama and Trump in a
circle together and talkingabout what were the impacts of
being in the highest office andwhat that looked like in trying
to do the work?
And then, on a community level,it's powerful to sit in circle

(01:00:44):
with young people, becausethat's actually the place where
I learned the most, where I getthe most opportunity to be
reflective of myself and the waythat I'm thinking about the
world.
So there's, like you know, Ireally wanna understand where
Ron is coming from Again, whereis his entry point in the cycle
of violence?
Because there's somethingthat's real.
I would love to know what it'slike to have power right,

(01:01:08):
because when we're talking aboutrestorative justice and
restorative practice, we arereally talking about, like
balancing out power for everyone, and so talking to folks that
hold the most power would bereally interesting, and knowing
that our young people are allactually the ones that are
holding the power, that areholding the power that are gonna
get us to where we wanna be inthe future.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
What I'm gonna ask you to do is put DeSantis, Trump
, Obama and a young person inyour life in a circle.
What is the one question?
You ask the four of them tostart that circle.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
To start that circle.
I would start the circle withwhat are the reasons that you
decided to be here?
Honestly, because you getpeople to be in their reflection
at that moment and then buildoff of that For sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
What do you hope to build to?
What's the question that youhope to build to in that space?

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I hope to build in that space and opportunity to be
reimagining the world that welive in, that's, in a more
accountable, safe, building andrelationship, building culture
and acknowledging the truthabout the fact that we are
really rooted in violence all ofus.

(01:02:35):
And how do we heal from that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah, yeah, for sure there's so much.
I'm really grateful for thedepth that you went to
Navigating Florida, weather,navigating, tech, navigating all
the things that we've done.
We'll link to Frijal's websiteall your resources.
But plug the conference onemore time.
Tell the people all the waysthat they can get connected and

(01:03:01):
be in support and in community.
Great, I hope you can hear me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Thank you.
Yes, Florida is doing Florida.
The Florida Restorative JusticeAssociation is hosting our down
south conference, so it'sreally an invitation to all of
our Southern partners or anybodydoing RJ in the South or RJ
anywhere, but particularlyamplifying the work of those in
the South.
It is in October, the weekendof the 20th through the 22nd.
That's a Friday through aSunday, so basically two and a

(01:03:27):
half days of really comingtogether for knowledge sharing.
You can get information aboutthe conference oh, excuse me,
it's RJ the remix, so we'relooking at the different ways
that we apply RJ to our lives,and you can get more information
about the conference by goingto wwwfrjacom.

(01:03:52):
That's www.
Florida Restorative JusticeAssociationcom.
Either one will get you to thewebsite.
You can click on the tab thatsays 2023 conference and get all
of the information about theconference.
It is all inclusive, so youwill get your housing, you will
get three meals and you'll getall of the workshops and

(01:04:13):
relationship building that we'regonna be doing for one price
and we welcome seeing everyonecoming through and joining us
and building with us in OctoberBeautiful beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
I'm really appreciative of you bringing
this to us.
I'm really appreciative of allthe connections that you're
gonna be making so we cancontinue to amplify this work.
Thank you for sharing yourstories, wisdom.
Keep your sharing your stories,wisdom and experiences.
We'll be back next week withsomeone else from the South
highlighting their restorativejustice journey.
Until then, take care y'all.