123. Creating Restorative Spaces for Florida Youth w/ Quincie "Q" Doucet

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"Q" is an experienced facilitator, rooted in restorative practices, who is an expert in crafting containers for community to listen, reflect, create, and witness each other with presence and depth to inspire what is possible. Quincie has collaborated with a myriad of communities, organizations, and universities/colleges to develop and deliver programming that is tailored to a community’s need/curiosity. They are also a founder of Unity 360 Institute working toward offering customized, experiential training workshops and technical assistance for institutions, companies and organizations to guide them toward intentional representation and an inclusive transformative culture.

Our conversation takes an insightful turn as we reflect on our own childhood experiences and how they've led us to the path of restorative justice. We dive into the power of creating welcoming spaces that make young people’s voices heard and matter. We also unpack the definitions of restorative and transformative justice, the importance of an intergenerational approach, and the potential of RJ to envision a society beyond our current structures.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
I'm your host, david Ryan,barca, castro, harris all five
names for all the ancestors.
And today we're continuing ourseries highlighting dope
restorative justicepractitioners doing restorative
work in the South Q.
Welcome to this restorativejustice life.
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I am a daughter of the Caribbean, or a child of the
Caribbean, depending on the day.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am a person that loves to laugh with community.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:42):
I am a facilitator who loves crafting generative
spaces.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I am.
This is a great question.
I am a lover of all thingswater.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Who are?

Speaker 2 (01:04):
you.
I am a person that's trying toleave the world a little bit
better than when I got it.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, who are you?

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I am a believer in the little miracles that happen
every day.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
And finally for now, who are you?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I am Quinty Demianna de Setberin for all the
ancestors.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
We're gonna get to the intersections of so many of
those things throughout ourconversation, but I just want to
say up front, part of us doingthis series highlighting
restorative justicepractitioners doing work in the
South is to support the upcomingrestorative justice conference,
the remix gathering coming upin October.

(01:57):
Do you want to tell the peoplea little bit about that?

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for queuingthat up.
So for JAW, the FloridaRestorative Justice Association
will be holding a conferencecalled the Deep South Conference
RJ the Remix and that will behappening October 20th through
the 22nd and we're hoping tohave a gathering of folks who
are practicing RJs in alldifferent remixes and ways hence

(02:21):
the title and offering someworkshops to kind of orient
folks around what those thingslook like around the country,
with a kind of specific focus onwhat that work might look like
here in the South.
But of course, everybody'swelcome and yeah, that's the
conference that's coming up.
Check out freeraworg to sign up.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Beautiful, beautiful and you know, over the course of
this conversation we'll behighlighting some of the work
that you're doing in, you know,the US geographic South,
specifically in South Florida,but before we get to any of that
, it's good to check in.
So, to the fullest extent thatyou want to answer the question,
how are you?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
That's a great question.
Thank you for asking it.
I am, I'm doing well, I'm inlight spirits right now.
It's it's.
It's not one of these rainyweeks in South Florida, it's one
of these sunny ones, so justtrying to relish in the sunshine
of it all, how about?

Speaker 1 (03:22):
you how?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
are you David?

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Oh well, thank you for asking.
You know this conversation isgoing to air a little bit after
we're actually recording this,but I am in the midst of doing a
lot of work supporting schoolsas they're getting started to
set off on the right foot, doingrestorative justice work or
like implementing restorativejustice work.
So, subtle plug, if you arepart of a school or you know, I

(03:46):
work with all kinds oforganizations who are interested
in doing this kind of work inyour community.
How about your boy?
And check out the links downbelow to learn about the ways
that you can learn as anindividual or learn on a
community level.
So the stress of that isrelevant and present.
But I'm really locked in, readyto have this conversation with
you.

(04:06):
We've been chatting before westarted hitting record and I was
like come on, come on, stopthat we got to get this on.
So let's get to it.
You know you've been doingrestorative justice work for a
minute now, longer than you evenknew the word restorative
justice.
So, from your own perspective,how did this journey get started

(04:28):
for you?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, that's a great question, Thank you.
I feel, and I feel like I'vealways had faith in the ways
that communities are able torelate with each other and I
just feel like there's a certainmagic to that.
And so I noticing, in thereflection of us talking to you
beforehand, that everything interms of the work that I've done

(04:53):
, but really even the networksthat I've operated in, has to do
with how do we fortify ourrelationships with each other.
And when it comes to the workthat I've done, where there's a
lot of overlap in youthdevelopment work and empowering
youth, or really empoweringyouth, I think it's more

(05:15):
allowing youth the space andplace to see how their magic can
amplify all great things.
And sometimes that takes alevel of support from one
another and your peers, who arekind of in it with you and that
phase with you, to be able to doso.
And so, in all the things thatI've ever done, there has been a

(05:39):
specific way that we movethrough process in which we try
to get everybody or we alwaysget everybody's voices who might
be impacted by a certainsituation, a certain thing, come
together collectively to try tofigure out what are some of the
moves that we want to make andbe intentional about supporting
that person along to fulfillingwhatever that plan looks like,

(06:02):
and so yeah, yeah, what weresome of the early models of that
?
Yeah, okay, so that's a greatquestion.
I used to be funny enough whenI was in high school this is so
fun, okay.
When I was in high school Iwent to a private school.
For high school I've done alliterations of I went public,
charter and private.
The last couple of years ofwhen I was in school I was in a
private school and I was afacilitator for, like a peer

(06:26):
facilitator for eighth graders,ninth graders, like with the
younger crew of folks, and sothat is what I.
It's a while because this isjust coming to me now, but one
of the things that we used to dois, if there was conflict, that
at a moment and in the retreatsthat we would hold, there would
be specific spaces and placeswhere we would have folks in
smaller groups kind of thinkthrough what is it that has been

(06:51):
really heavy in terms of thedynamics that they've had with
their peers in their classes,and provide some space for folks
to reflect in different mediums, like a writing space or like a
shouting corner or like we evenhave like a like how are you
moving it out of your body?
And then created spaces forfolks at facilitated and
mediated spaces for folks tohave those conversations if

(07:12):
those folks are actually on theretreat with them.
So I think that that is one ofthe first like early, early
trainings that I didn't evenrealize, whereas a part of this
like longer lineage of howcommunities have been moving
through a sort of practice forbeyond a millennia.
So I think that's the earliestthat I can think through.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
For sure.
So you know, like from theearly, early years, like that
was something that you knew wasavailable to you, but like what
made you want to step into thatkind of space?
What was it about those spacesthat were like, oh, this might
be a little something that I'minterested in learning more
about.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, this is.
These are great questions.
I you know I wouldn't say thatI was, and I've since actually
learned.
Shout out to Kimberly Crenshawand all these folks that do work
in terms of folks who aresocializes as femme, growing up
and mad, curious and loud, suchas myself, I would have been
categorized, especially in thepublic school system, when I in

(08:15):
the mind games county school, sothat I grew up in as a child
who was like a bad child and Ispent a lot of time in like
principal's offices or likeindoor suspension or detention,
and a lot of it was there was nospace for me to have a
conversation about what wentdown.
There was no space for, and Ithink it was really hammered

(08:38):
down that what you thought andwhat you think does not matter.
This is what needs to happenand you need to follow in line
and without context or aconversation.
I've, since I found out it'svery difficult for even adults,
in some of the processes that Imoved through, to be held to

(08:58):
that expectation, and I think,from very young, there was an
understanding that, even thoughyou know I grew up in a
Dominican, haitian household, myparents did not play that being
in trouble at that rate, thoughI had pretty decent grades, I
did know that the conversationsthat I was having with my
friends about what was goingdown or even the ways in which

(09:23):
there was this expectation oflike you could treat youth in
any way, shape or form because,yeah, there's just not anything
valid to say, it's just reallyit's like a militarized way of
like getting them to a certainpoint just isn't a way that is
conducive to how fun andinspiring being in a collective

(09:45):
and a space that's like socialand also like about learning can
be.
And so I think I startedactually doing that facilitation
stuff in eighth grade and Ithink it was about there's
something really really magicaland like still feeds my soul
about being in small groups andmaking creating space for folks
to have this understanding, andespecially young folks to have

(10:08):
this understanding that you'renot only to do your voice matter
but you are the expert of yourown experience and that
expertise can be used to channeland fill out any vision that
you have for the questions thatyou're having about what the
world looks like, and you aredeserving to have a space to be
able to show that out.
And I think, like when I gotthat first taste of what that

(10:32):
looks like.
I just couldn't let it go.
And when I was after I lovecollege and I was trying to
explain to folks what I do, Iwas like, essentially, like I'm
just the still the samefacilitator, I'm just getting
paid to do it now.
So I think that that's wherethat comes from.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, which is a labor issue and an equity issue
that doesn't always getaddressed.
We can circle back to that in alittle bit.
But when we think about youknow the conditions that led you
to being that person who wasable to like develop those
skills.
You know, I imagine part ofyour work now is like coaching

(11:10):
and helping adults like createthose spaces.
But what was it for you as achild, as a young person, that
like made those spaces welcoming, inviting?
What were the things thatadults did that were like oh,
this is something that like isfor me bad.
Child that I am.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, I think it took also like.
I think it took adults who weregrounded and had an
understanding that and a beliefthat youth can do it.
I will say there was friction.
You know, there was a certainpoint where I was asked to be

(11:50):
and had to go through like thisin the, in interviewing rounds
of sorts, to be what they called.
I don't know what they called.
It was like a peer minister,which is essentially just like
I'm no minister, you know butessentially is just like you get
to really be at the helm ofcrafting what these things look
like.
And even though the folks thatran that program were like I

(12:13):
think he would be fantastic forit, the school administration
stripped me of the title becausethey were like you can't have
this person as like an example,but that looks like.
And so I think it took adultswho were willing to ace it back
and understand that they, justbecause you've lived a longer
life, doesn't mean that you'rethe expert on how to exist and

(12:35):
create space for young people tobe able to collaborate and
coordinate with each other, tokind of get into the group of
what existings can look like,what looks like right now and
what it can look like in thefuture.
So I think it took adults andeven in the adults that I work
with now, because part of thethings I I the evolution of the
works that I've, the work thatI've done is coaching coaches to

(12:57):
do kind of this similar work isa lot of having those
conversations it's like but howare you relishing in their
expertise and how are youcreating space for that to be
aired out?

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, this idea of expertise and buzzword like
authority right is really tricky.
I know you've been appreciatingthe episodes we've recently put
out reflecting on AbbaElementary and there's this
discussion that popped off inone of the comment sections of
one of the videos that we putout around, something that

(13:30):
happened in episode 13 of seasonone and I'll like highlight it
here, just for your sake and forthe viewers who haven't quite
listened or watched again.
Go watch those videos, go listen, share it with all your
educator friends as an easy onroad to learning about
restorative justice.

(13:51):
Plug over right in season one,episode 13.
It's the end of the season.
They're on this zoo field trip.
Barbara and Janine are havingthis conversation on the bus and
in the back of the bus the kidsare being rowdy and Janine
stands up and yells sit down,yeah right.

(14:13):
And Barbara is taken back andlike that is on the show seen as
a moment of like oh, janine hasarrived as a teacher and Polina
and I, in the context of thatdiscussion, were like Okay, I'm
not saying that there is never atime to raise your voice, but
what is the impact of that?
What are the dynamics that arebeing perpetuated, right?

(14:35):
I think, Felina, in the contextof that conversation she was
saying that you know, I had amoment like that and the student
came back and he was like I'mnot a dog, right, like why?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
are you like?

Speaker 1 (14:48):
treating me like that .
Right, students have thisability to like have
conversations with you, youngstudents, right?
What are the things that thisthat Janine and Barbara didn't
do as the students came onto thebus that like, hey, we do need
to like be in our seats, we doneed to be like some level of
quiet for our own safety andlike what is the thing that we

(15:08):
could have done that remindedstudents of that instead of?
Yeah commanding them Right,these dynamics that adults have
right Just because we are moreexperienced in the world, just
because we have XYZ job title,like we expect this level of
like, quote, unquote, authorityand respect, or, like you know,
and I'm not saying that like weare not worthy of respect, but

(15:32):
it has to go both ways.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
We're dealing with young people who are also full
of life experience, who are alsovaluable, contributing members
to your community.
And what are the things thatyou need to do in order to
create the conditions right.
It sounds like in your case theconditions.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
David create the conditions.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
All right, it sounded like you had some teachers,
adults, in your life.
You're like, yeah, like webelieve in you, and then like
administrators, like, no, weneed like those.
We need people who are like ourpeer ministers, peer counselors
, whatever title you're callingthem, like to be like these

(16:13):
pristine, like angelic like dono wrong ever Right.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly.
I appreciate you bringing upthat example because I feel I
had a similar situation thathappened with a student and it
was in one of these programmingsessions that I was in, where we
were working with thesestudents and, like I think the
other part of what you'resharing is the challenge in

(16:41):
trying to navigate in adifferent way is that the
training in order to get tothese quote unquote like spaces,
is a programming tool of itselfthat flattens and makes a
narrow vision as to how you canrelate to a student, right, and
so you're also fighting liketrain, you're kind of

(17:03):
unprogramming, while theprogramming is still trying to
like telling you that this isthe only way to move.
I had a situation where I wasworking with a student and a
student we all got off the busit's a while these things always
happen on a bus and my one ofthe students that were in this
collective, this cohort of folksthat were going to go off to
school together, it was like Ihave some really hard news and I

(17:26):
would like to share it with mygroup, and as the student was
talking this, this other personin their cohort just started
laughing and, like set a joke,probably wasn't paying attention
to this, and I got very stern,which the students are not
accustomed to.
Me be like snapping almostright was just like did you just
hear what this person said?

(17:47):
Why are you reacting in thisway?
And I could just see kind ofthat person shrink into
themselves.
And the day or two afterwards Iactually called them into a one
on one and we had a conversationabout what that looked like and
the storytelling behind whathappened and they're also their

(18:12):
own processing of what happenswhen these really heavy things
are shared was not something Iwas creating space for in that
moment.
And even though it's funny,because I've had this
conversation with my own Barbarain my my world, where they're
like I don't know why you evenhave to have that one on one,
and I was like this person wasacting out of pocket and you

(18:32):
clocked it in that moment and Iwas like, yes, but if something
similar would have happened toan adult, I would never say that
like I would have never justsnapped.
I probably would have pulledsomebody to the side in that
moment.
I would have said yo did, youknow, you know, and so why not
extend that same courtesy to ayoung person, if, especially if,
these are the values that we'resaying, that we're trying to

(18:52):
move through and share withstudents, and so I think you're
absolutely sharing the sameemotions and the containers that
we're creating for folks tohave an understanding of how
we're trying to move.
It's not always going to worklike you're sharing, but it is
an important question toconstantly be reflecting about,
especially in such an importantposition like supporting the,

(19:16):
the shaping of what a studentwill will experience in their
education.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
I understand, like all the structural barriers to
having those conversations right.
A lot of times people like well, where's the time to do that
right?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
You create the time that the time for the things
that are important for you.
And if, like, that's not animportant priority for your
school or for your organization,or for the culture of the space
that you're working in, like, Iunderstand, like, why you might
be resistant to that and that'swhy we're saying, hey, let's
challenge this idea of authorityand the way that we are with

(19:55):
students, like as a whole, right, like it can't just be on like
individuals to like correctbehavior, but like individuals,
do have choice individuals dohave agency and decide to uphold
these values moment to momentor not.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
None of us are ever going to get it perfectly.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
And when we are imperfect, when we fall short of
doing that, we can always makeamends, we can always repair
right and sort of justice.
Work is about engaging in thatprocess of building,
strengthening as well asrepairing relationships when
harm occurs and you know we allcause harm in those in
circumstances Exactly.

(20:34):
You know we talked about likethe informal ways you were
introduced to these ideas, butwhen did capital R, capital J
come on to your preview?

Speaker 2 (20:46):
I was in like a like a two week training for RJ and
it was actually RJ, trans, rjtj,transformative justice, collab,
and it was just like a coupleof folks in the like
organization that I was workingfor is like one of these things,
you know you can add thiscertificate or whatever.

(21:07):
And so I did that training andthough I was really grateful for
the fun, like the foundationsthat were provided in those
spaces, I was really curious howthis could happen in practice
and specifically like communitystructures versus like this
organization that I was workingwith.
And that's actually where I metJay, who I think is going to be

(21:30):
showing up on another episode,actually Jay and Cindy, who I
think is going to also beshowing up on another episode.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
And so if you will last week, cindy will be next
week.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Next week.
Okay, I'm in the center, but wewere part of this restorative
justice, transformative justice,it was.
That was the crux of what wewere working through.
It was a gender based violencetraining that happened.
I think that also was like atwo week or, but it also tied

(22:01):
into us building out programming, which is really cool.
So it was a very specific askin terms of how are you sharing
back these skills and how areyou applying the skills and not
share back?
And so I think, whereas I didhave like a formal training, I
think that that one was a lotmore impact.

(22:22):
I was very impacted by thattraining because, first off, it
was intergenerational.
So there were young people whoon that and also like
grandmothers that were up therelike kind of circling, and then
you know actual parents thatwere having conversations with
us and moving to these differentexercises, and it really
expanded my understanding of howRJ practices, practices can

(22:47):
work.
Outside of like let's writethis into a policy, it's like no
, well, how does this actuallywork when we relate to one
another?
So I did that training and thenI had another, like I had a
couple different iterations offormalized training and then the
next formal training wasworking with an organization
because I was part of a part offacilitating a restorative

(23:12):
justice diversion program, andso then figuring out okay, so
how are our P's going to workwhen braided with the state
expectation, which is a veryinteresting?
Yeah, it was a very interestingtask, and so those are the
iterations of my formal training.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, and so I guess I do ask this question typically
towards the end, but I thinkit's worth saying now as it
stands.
Now, like, what is yourunderstanding of restorative
justice?
How do you define it foryourself?

Speaker 2 (23:50):
for myself, okay, I for me.
This is fun because I've beenthinking a lot more of a sort of
practice, so it's interestingto like zoom back out a bit.
I think that restorativejustice is a way to get to some
sort of homeostasis, to movetowards transformative justice.

(24:11):
How do we kind of get to aplace of it starts with an H
homeostasis within a communitynetwork, to then be able to get
to a place where we can imagine,beyond whatever implications we
were dealing with, that fedinto us having to deal with set
harm in the first place?

(24:31):
I think that right now that'swhere I'm at.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, I guess it bears asking how do you find to
find transformative justice then?

Speaker 2 (24:40):
So much fun.
Okay.
Transformative justice, I think, is envisioning the strong and
this is not I don't have thetechnical term on hand because
I'm no academic but for me,transformative justice, where
restorative justice is, how dowe figure out a way to get back
to or to create a space wherewe're, at this, like homeostasis

(25:02):
, this like feeling, for themost part, balance.
I think transformative justiceis like okay, now, how do we
reimagine the structures thatare at play, that fueled the
harm that God has?
That kind of that fueled ushaving to do our day in the
first place or our piece in thefirst place.

(25:24):
I think an example of that wouldbe for me, like a student who
stole a purse in a school and itwas a teacher's purse, and we
would move through like arestorative process to, kind of
men, figure out how we can beaccountable to the harm.

(25:44):
What are some action plans thatcan build out as a collective
and as community representationto be able to remedy said harm
and move to a place ofaccountability.
And then I think the step oftransformative justice is to say
Okay, but like some of thethings that the student was
sharing in the circle is thatthey come to school hungry, that

(26:04):
they don't have the resourcesto like come to school in
uniform, and so how are wereimagining the barriers to how
that student can look like with?
Maybe we need a pantry, maybewe need a community, we need
some sort of community program.
That's happening here.
So I think maybe it's astepping stone, sounds too

(26:26):
linear, but to me that's kind ofthe domino effect, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.
I just wanted people have agrasp of, like, what you mean
when you say these words for thepurposes of our conversation
because you know part of doingrestorative justice work is,
like you know, collaborativecommunity agreement and so like.
As we're having this specificconversation right now, like
what is it that we mean when wethrow around those terms and you
know, when I'm thinking aboutyou, know the specific

(26:53):
applications of this work likeit will change context to
context, from gender basedviolence to, you know, youth
empowerment to whatever'shappening in schools, what's
happening in diversion programs,which I wouldn't label
restorative justice.
That's just diversion, which isa harm reduction thing.
Jay, and I talked about that onthe last episode.
If you haven't watched that, gotune into that.

(27:15):
But when we think about you,know the way that this work has
played out in your life, right?
What are some of the things thatyou have like learned that have
been like super important tolike practicing well.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, that's a great question, because I had a moment
where I was doing all of thiscommunity.
Well, I'm always doingcommunity work and I I felt like
I had this moment where I wasjust like, how am I turning this
inward to my family network?
Like, can I say that I do allthis stuff in practice, even
though, like, I work through itin my French, my friend circle,

(27:52):
my chosen family circle, and doI apply it to the first network
that I have is ever a part ofyou know?
And so there have beeninstances, instances that have
happened in my family, where Iliterally have been like All
right, we're about to do acircle and you know I'm, my
family is always like here we go, here's the college degree I

(28:19):
have to do, you know, I have tocome across.
And I think one of the thingsthat are important and it's
funny because, jane, I were justtalking about this is that
there are different levels ofsuccess that should be lauded as
such, and I'm not just aboutgetting to the end game of who
we got to this.
We got to a community circle andthen we got to this action plan

(28:40):
and this person did the actionplan, and that's what success
looks like it's.
The presentation of having thisas an option to folks is a
success in and of itself,especially the underserved and
marginalized communities that wework in, because when those
alternative considerations arenot typically offered at scale,
and the ways that we're tryingto work to have those things and

(29:00):
other organizations that willbe joining your problem, your
podcast is trying to offer it'salso like a person sharing that
they have been harmed andfeeling in, validated and
reassured in.
That is another measure ofsuccess.
A person that you know hascommitted the harm, having a
conversation to even thinkthrough, okay, like I guess this

(29:20):
accountability process isinteresting, even if they say no
Again, bringing that up isanother measure of success.
And so I think not beingboggled by the end game, which
for me can be time a burger.
So I'm like how do we check allof the boxes?
It would be great if all theboxes get checked off, but that
can't be the only measure ofsuccess, and I think the other

(29:43):
thing that ties specifically tothat is active listening, and I
know that that can be a buzzword, but listening to understand
versus listening to react to athing because you've got a
resource, or I'm really excited.
It's like how are you justunderstanding the testimony
that's happening in the momentand then being intentional about
how you're tailing, the waythat you move through a flow to

(30:03):
support it?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, those definitions like active
listening, buzzwords, likereflective listening, like
intellectual empathy, right.
Like those are things that likeare important to like define
for people.
Those are important skills tobuild for folks.
But wanting to sit with likethe breadth of what you just
shared is like things that areimportant, right, like there are

(30:25):
lots of ways to measureQuote-unquote success when we're
doing restorative justice workand it's not necessarily
conducive to what Institutionsare wanting right, like they
want outcomes right.
They want Consequences right.
And you know another word thatwe can redefine consequences
right.
When people say consequences,they often mean punishment right
, reactions that will happen tosomebody because they did a

(30:49):
thing right.
But we know that consequence isConsequence, like whatever
happens after, with sequenceright.
So the consequence of somebodylike doing this action has been
like now they have greaterself-awareness of, like, the
harm that they caused and like,while we might not have a action
plan in this moment, right,that is something that is worth

(31:09):
celebrating.
The consequence of of XYZ harmhappening, right, let's say it's
.
You know, this teacher andstudent, like this teacher who
had their personal and like thestudent Understanding, like the
impact that they had on thatteacher and like the teacher
being able to express to thestudent like the broken trust,
the fear and like the concernthat they have for themselves

(31:31):
and their community when theirbelongings go missing.
Right, and I don't know likethe specific conditions of you
know that that specific story,and that's not necessarily what
this conversation is about, butyou know, those things are
success in and of themselves,right.
Whether or not that studentrepeats that behavior again is
also important, right.

(31:51):
We don't want students stealingit again stealing from other
people right, but like doesdetention prevent them from
doing that right?
Does suspension prevent themfrom doing that either?
Exactly, right so what are theways that we're making sure that
, like, we're addressing theunderlying needs right?
Yeah, food, is food accessible?
Is food it our school mealsfunded in your state?

(32:14):
Maybe that's not the level ofConversation that you're having,
maybe it's.
What are the things that youknow, these people here who care
about you in this space, can doto make sure that you come to
school fed?
What are the things that we cando to support you in building
your life skills to like hey,remember to eat before you come
to school.
Or like here the places that youcan go.

(32:34):
I'm reflective of a of a peerconference, similar situation
that I had with the student, notFor stealing, but like who is
habitually late, right, andthat's because they were new to
the, they were new to theneighborhood and they were going
to the closest corner storethat they knew Before they went

(32:54):
to school and so, like they werejust late and you know this is
a student who Definitely needscoaching.
This is a young person who,like, definitely needs coaching
on, like, planning out your dayand getting places on time so
you're not missing learning.
Like we can lecture that studentall we want, but like, hey, is
there another corner store thatyou can go to?
That's on the way.
That's not putting you like 10minutes behind, yeah right, like

(33:17):
maybe that's part of theconversation, instead of like
nope, detention because you'relate, oh, we're docking your
grades because you didn't turnin your homework on time, xyz,
xyz.
They're just so many ways thatwe can start to like Really
address those root causes,instead of just like slapping
somebody with a Consequence, akapunishment.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, cuz to your point it doesn't work, you know,
and if you're to your point,you're just like.
You're kind of just likeputting your hand on all these
like holes in the ship and justhoping that we're gonna get to
destination and it that's notalways the case and I often
think I know that you're gonnahave power, you on here, and

(34:04):
Jose, and there was a.
We just ended up having aconversation with the school
board and he'll I will let himtalk about like how dope the
work is of young peopleadvocating for RJ to be part of
the budget of the school board.
But what I noticed in my timethere in supporting power you
and their requests was there,they open it up with this.

(34:27):
Why they're there, basically,and they're like.
You know, we're here forstudents to feel like they are
safe and for students to feellike they can build the skills
that they want, and they canbuild the skills that are
necessary to do the things thatthey want.
The world is essentially howthey started it off, and my

(34:47):
response to them was and whenyou were able to share different
testimony, it was like I thinkit's very exciting that that is
the reason why everybody's hereand it's always really excited
to be in a space where there's acollective goal, much like when
you know You're in an RJ circle, because there's always a
collective goal.
You know tying those thingstogether.
But in order to in Be informedas to how a student might feel

(35:09):
safe and to know what toolstudents will need, you need the
students voice to be able to dothat.
And so in what ways are youleaning at going back to this
expertise and what ways are youleaning into the students
expertise to be able to craftintentional spaces and
containers and and tools forstudents to both feel safe and
also do exactly what you'reclaiming that you want them to

(35:32):
do, which is to do what theywant to do in the world, and
that, you know I don't think itruffled any feathers, but
they're definitely was just likeuh-huh, you know, which is fair
.
That happens a lot, you know,and a lot of different use
spaces that I've worked in whenI'm like okay, but like what do
they?
You think about this?
No, I think what do the youththink about this?

(35:53):
That's a great question.
It's like oh, you're just gonnathrow this policy on them and
like not have any information.
I think to your point there.
What I love also about workingwith youth is that there is a
level of expansiveness that justfeels inherent, and If you are
creating space for thatexpensive to shine through from

(36:15):
youth, you can also, to yourpoint, reflect that back in what
you know are options in thisspace.
That would then be like a skillshare situation for a young
person and an adult to movethrough.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
So I think that's a fantastic, fantastic point and
like Are our institutions, ourorganizations Used to creating
those spaces?
No, they're not right therelike very much top-down hey
adults have this idea.
Adults discovered this resourceand we're gonna implement it

(36:46):
because, like, that's thegreatest new thing, it's
data-driven, blah, blah, blah,blah.
Students like get on board.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah right, I'm an elementary.
Get on this iPad.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, I like thinking about like so many Examples in
Abbott.
Again, if you have gone andwatch the, go back and rewatch
them, because I think the thingthat keeps coming up over and
over In that show is peoplemaking decisions on behalf of
other people.
Right, we see Admin it like.
We see Eva doing that for theschool as a whole.
We see you know Janine and JacobOther of the staff like making

(37:23):
decisions on behalf of theirother colleagues or on behalf of
their students, without thatconsultation, and that's so real
and that happens all the timewithin organizations, within
schools, and sometimes those aregreat resources, really well
intentioned.
Those are the things thatshould happen other times and

(37:43):
like people will feel good aboutit other times Do.
That's the right thing thathappened, but the way that you
went about doing that just rubspeople the wrong way.
Yeah right like making them feeldisenfranchised, making them
feel like they don't have power,making it feel like their
Perspectives and their needsaren't important.
They just wanted an opportunityto be able to share.
There are other times when thething as well intentioned as it

(38:05):
was, right is Actually harmfulfor your community.
Right, we can talk about theiPad episode.
We can talk about the communitygarden episode.
We can talk about the, the artepisode we can talk about like
the gifted program episode.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, where Janine is like no, they're gonna be
friends.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Oh, we haven't got to that one.
That one's in season two okay.
Right.
But like this culture of makingdecisions for youth right,
leading to permission,permissiveness, or like Enabling
, like harmful behavior, or likedoing things to young people
like in a punitive way, right,like high expectations, no

(38:43):
support, it is also damaging.
Like you know, your work isbroadly defined as Youth
development with a restorativejustice lens.
You know your work is broadlydefined as Youth development
with a restorative,transformative justice lens.
What are the ways that adults,many of whom are listening to

(39:04):
this podcast Can do to sharepower with young people as
specifically as you can tell us?

Speaker 2 (39:13):
yeah, yeah, I mean, funny enough this might be.
This might not be a Great wayto answer this.
I Don't know why this image iscoming to my head.
There's this movie called Ithink it's the dead poet society
with Robin Williams, andthere's this scene where Robin

(39:33):
Williams is supposed to beteaching I think it's English
and and instead of it comingfrom what I think is like you
traditionally see, which is likehere's, here's a notes on the
board.
Here, it's like okay, here'sthis word.
What do you think about thisword?
When you like, break it down,what does it sound like?

(39:53):
I can't remember if it's thatmovie or another movie where
he's a teacher in that way, butI Guess I bring that example up
to say in what way and maybesoliciting is not the right word
either, but like, in what waysare you Creating space for
students to bring in their ownideas about a thing in the world

(40:16):
?
It's hard to build relationshipswith someone if you're not
actually in creating space to beengaged in who they are.
I find and what I would say iskind of my specialty, just
because it makes me reallyexcited to do is having

(40:38):
interactive spaces.
So I think about I've had tofacilitate and teach classes at
this college, and it wasspecifically about job readiness
skills and stuff that we weretrying to for students that were
specifically going to these,these different internships for
these different organizationscorporations, actually Microsoft

(40:58):
and all of those and the waysin which we worked on these job
skills was to put students insmall groups to have a
conversation about what isintimidating about this girl, so
like, for example, at the endof that, one of the things that

(41:19):
happened as a staple in thatprogram is that they have to
come up with a business plan fora product that they create and
it has to be in front of ithappens, in front of like the
heads of these banks and likethe heads of marketing for these
different things that areactually judging these young
people that have built a thing.
And before, when I came intothe program, the ways in which

(41:40):
that was handed to students wasjust like you're going to have
this business plan get ready.
You're going to kind of have toget over your fear or whatever
and push past it because it'sgoing to have to happen.
The ways in which I was reallyexcited to remix it was okay,
like so we're going to buildthis out to like a three month

(42:01):
skill by skill buildup, and theonly way that we can create a
tailored way of addressing theseissues was to be like okay, so
historically, when we look atthe data and we do the feedback
surveys, young people have areally big challenge with
speaking in large groups becausethis happens in auditoriums and
feel very intimidated abouttheir ideas being worth sharing

(42:25):
in that scale.
And so, okay, we have that dataand it's also it's just because
of the power dynamics.
I find it's easier for studentsto talk to each other about a
thing and then have that in alarge process having a
conversation.
So what is intimidating aboutspeaking?
We're going to break you up infive groups and you all can talk

(42:48):
to each other about what thatlooks like, and then in 10
minutes, we're going to bringfolks together and you're going
to identify a person from yourgroup to speak and reflect back
what was shared.
And then we're putting all thisstuff literally I'm writing all
these things on the board andthen we are collaborating to
create okay.
So like what if y'all were ableto practice for six weeks, like

(43:08):
, if this is your challenge,would that feel a little bit
better?
And I know that I also am comingfrom.
That's a standpoint ofprivilege because I'm not
operating under especiallyhearing Florida.
There's a rigidness of testingthat has to happen.
Like you know, that's howfunding gets.
I'm sure it happens in allthese places, but it's something
that's really a big concernhere in Florida, like getting

(43:28):
these it's not called FCATanymore, but whatever
standardized tests that theyhave to prep for and being at
the helm of that program I had alot of space to craft what the
curriculum looks like in thosespaces and to rewrite a lot of
the curriculum.
So I know that that's a place ofprivilege and I do think it's
an invitation to think throughin what ways are other.

(43:51):
You know, some of the thingsthat are still embedded in my
brain is how, like my fifthgrade math teacher made thinking
about money an interactivesession where we're building a
town with each other and we kindof have to come as a group to
figure out how we're gonna buildthese supplies to do this
project.
You know, together and each ofus have our little coins, but

(44:12):
it's like an interactive way oftalking to each other and you're
getting feedback in an organicway.
So I know that I'd like goingon a spiel a bit, but that would
be.
I think that that has beentried and true in everything
that I've done, and that's withyouth, but also in doing a lot
of.
I've built and offered a lot ofcommunity workshops, and that

(44:33):
has also like.
Adults love that too, you know.
So that's what I would, that'swhat I would offer.
I hope that's helpful.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yeah, and I think you know the specifics of that.
Like it might say, it might belike break people into small
groups and ask a question thatlike is like on, not like the
deepest level, but like aservice level that will like
allow some ideas to startpercolating and then like you
can go deeper and deeper andhave like larger group

(45:00):
discussions, like that's justgood facilitation, right, and
those things are transferablefrom place to place to place in
circumstances, right, like withpeople in general and, you know,
young people specifically,right.
But what comes out of thosespaces is like the key and right
.
You have to be responsive tothat right, they're gonna
surface these because, like youcan't just like hear what they

(45:22):
say, I'm like all right cool.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
No one's have the next thing Right right right?
Well, let's shit it.
Well, let's shit it.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Right, like we have to make sure that.
Like, if people tell us things,if people tell us their needs,
if young people tell us theirneeds, like, all right, let's
figure out ways to, you know,meet those needs and you can be
honest about the limitationsthat you have.
Right.
I think you know, when you'rethinking about the people who
are listening to this, who arein institutions and

(45:50):
organizations where they do havelimits on, like, what they can
teach in their curriculum, whattime they have to allot to XYZ.
One part of your conditioningas a restorative justice
practitioner maybe as anabolitionist is to say, like
well, what are the ways that Ican be trained in the system in
order to, like, do the thingthat I believe is right?
That's one thing and if we wannahave that conversation, we can.

(46:12):
But two, it's to say to thepeople that you're working with
I wanna build a classroom, Iwanna build a community here
where we can be responsive toeach other's needs.
Right, you all have voiced somethings that the rules of this
school, the rules of thisinstitution, the policies that
we have in place, like, don'tallow us to do so.
One of the things that we cando instead that will help us get

(46:34):
to that a little bit closer?

Speaker 2 (46:36):
right.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
You know that vulnerability goes a long way,
like it shows those young peoplethat like, hey, you're on their
side and we're in this together.
We're struggling against, likethis institution, this
programming, like theseguardrails that have been set
for us together, but like, whatis the thing that we can do to
make this the best we can withwhat we have right?
That might be like a little bitmore of like that restorative

(47:00):
space where, like, what is thehomeostasis that we can find in
these conditions?
A transformative lens of saying, like, well, what is the thing
that we can like re-create?
Like a little thing that we canburn down and you know there's
space for both of those thingsright Like those kinds of
conversations can lead to likestudent activism and you know,
if that's the way that you wantto take that, by all means.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
I go through that way to support your students and
that.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
But you know, making sure that, like, you're building
space to surface those stories,surface those needs and then
being responsive to them issuper important Because, like,
if you create those conditions,build their stories, collect
their stories and like, donothing with that, they're like
well, I just did that fornothing.
This person doesn't care.

(47:46):
They're just another adult whowanted to, I don't know power
trip.
And now that has my stories,has my needs and like how is
this gonna come back and bite melater?

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, I think you also bring up a really solid
point about modeling what you'dlike to see for students, like,
I think I was working in acapacity that was trying in some
ways to train students to movethrough a corporate atmosphere,
but I also had this challenge.
I ran into this like frictionof like I am not gonna ask my

(48:19):
students to do anything that Iwould not do, and so you this
whole like that there's acertain dress code, that certain
like all of this.
We're gonna have to figure outa way to make this a model,
cause the truth of the matter isthat is not how we as staff
have to move, and if we're notmodeling what these students

(48:39):
have to move through, there'salso like a well, you're not
doing it.
Like mix Like if you're notdoing it, then why are you gonna
have me do it?
And I think to your point, themodeling cause I feel I find and
I run into a lot when I'mworking with now I can just
think of them as the barbers inschool, but when I'm working
with folks who are like there'sa poise that I want to model,

(49:02):
there is a certain addiction, Ithink to your point.
There's also opportunity tomodel vulnerability, because
that is gonna inform so manygreat expansion packs to your
experience in the classroom.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, I love that.
You said expansion packs.
Yeah, right, there are.
Just there are lots of ways todo things and I'm never gonna be
the person to tell someone likewhat they're doing is right or
wrong in their context Right.
I don't know like as, even as,like a consultant who works with

(49:38):
schools, right, Like I'm notgonna like prescribe things,
right what restorative justiceoffers.
From the perspective that I'velearned over the years and shout
out to the homie Denmark whoframed it this way for me, Like,
restorative justice is bothlike a lens, yeah, that we look
through, but also like a mirrorthat we get to hold up to
ourselves.
So, like hey, are our actionslike building, strengthening and

(50:01):
repairing relationships in thismoment and right?
for the purposes of whatevercontext that you're in.
Like, maybe professionalism andbeing buttoned up like is the
thing that will like help youbuild credibility with you know
the stakeholders that you'reinvolved with in a given moment,
and that's the thing that youshould do.
right, you can have argumentsabout, like, whether that's

(50:22):
upholding white supremacy bylike code switching and
conforming into you know thosespaces and like I think those
are valid theoretical critiques,but like, if you're honest
assessment of that, it's like,no, that's actually what's gonna
give me credibility with theseparents, with my colleagues,
with these young people, right,like I think, like that's the
move to make and then there areother times to buck that right.

(50:45):
And show up as your you know,shout out to some of that was
working with the summer, sergio,saying like you're showing up
as like your authentic selfRight, like there are moments
for all of that, and you knowthere's not a one size meets all
, but like when we have thatmirror that we're holding up to

(51:06):
ourselves, or like that lensthat we're looking through, like
you know, what is serving therelationships in the space?
Who's benefiting from this?
How am I able to have the nextconversation?
Because, like I showed up inXYZ way, like, those are the
things that we really should beconsidering.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
You highlighted, like you know, some of the
challenges of doing the workthat you do in Florida as it
comes to, like you know, schoolmandates, and you know we can
talk a little bit more aboutthat if you want to.
When we think about doingrestorative justice work with
youth, what are some of thechallenges that come up for you
that like maybe unique toFlorida, maybe unique to the
South, but like, let's be honest, happen in a lot of other

(51:44):
places as well?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I again like I have athere's.
I just want to acknowledge myfocus because working with youth
, specifically of the age groupsof 26 to 17, there and I've

(52:06):
done other sprinkled around butlike that has been like the core
overlap there.
This is definitely not just inSouth Florida, but I and I
should say, excuse me not, butsome of the challenge I think I
run into with working with youthis you kind of brought this up

(52:29):
earlier before.
It's like how are you?
I don't know if I could trustthis whole restorative, but I'm
not sure if I trust this rightfrankly.
And it's like being steadfastand patient in instances where
I'm thinking of certain studentswho it took probably a year and

(52:53):
a half into a program for themto actually lean into being
vulnerable enough to movethrough different stages of
restorative practice.
But had I not been and not onlyI, but had the community of
folks that we were what we callthe learning communities, had we
not been intentional inconstantly being like we know

(53:16):
you have this as an option, wewouldn't have been able to
uncover some of the challengesthat were going down and figure
out how to support in thosedifferent ways.
So what I do think sometimes werun into is yeah, youth, being
like this is just another ployfor you to like get me into some
shit and I think the otherchallenges that it's hard work,

(53:41):
like it's heartbreak, I think ofit.
The work that we do is hardwork.
It really is.
It's something that comes fromthe heart but also can weigh on
the heart and so beingintentional also about how
you're taking care of yourself,because that will ultimately
fuel, like, the health of howyou're moving through in these
spaces, when you're trying toshow up for these years To your

(54:03):
point of a mirror, I think thereis a place where it's like
getting used to be vulnerable istough, but then also, when
you're in the space and folksare vulnerable, it can weigh
heavy on you because you're justlike damn, I should say for
myself.
There are moments where I'mlike damn, it's so heartbreaking
that these things are stillhappening, you know, and that

(54:26):
these neat, these very specificways that I thought were just
specific cuts in the way that Iexperienced the thing is also
being reflected in this otherstudents' experience, and so
that is not a place where I needto be to your point, trauma,
bonding with that student inthat way.
That's a place to recognize,take inventory.

(54:49):
There's this great thing thatJay, who was on your podcast
before, has this thing called aaura that we were moving through
.
Shout out to the contractorshere, by the way, because
they're also contractingdifferent spaces and actually
when we're working with studentsand teachers and admins, this
came up and it's called auraobserve, reflect and adapt.
And so in what ways are youobserving what's happening in

(55:10):
your body?
In what ways are then youreflecting back, taking
inventory and then makingadaptations to tend to what
shows up?
And so I think that is theother piece.
There's going to be moments,and especially when you're doing
this artwork, where a mirror isheld up and you're just like,
well, I wasn't expecting me topop up right now.
You know, take inventory ofthat, listen to yourself, do

(55:34):
some hard, you know, tend to thechallenges that are coming up
and make the adaptations thatare necessary so you can show up
in a way that you feel goodabout.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
There are two parts to what you said and I want to
focus on the first part.
For a second right.
You talked about how youngpeople are often in
circumstances where they're likeoh this is just another thing,
right?
And what about the conditionsof South Florida or Florida like
, lead to that kind ofsocialization from your
experience?

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Well, I will say like I can think of experiences as
being both the administrator andinstructor in a space and then
like being the student that's introuble here in Florida.
I think there were instanceswhen I was in school where
especially schools that werelike heavily policed in those

(56:27):
areas, like going to school inCarroll City and all of that.
It's like just tell me likewhat's really going on, you know
, and actually I think of like Ihad a space where a friend was
asked to share what thecircumstances were going through
at their household and also theimpacts of like what happened

(56:49):
in this classroom, and ICE wascalled and the student was
ripped away from the.
I mean, that person was rippedaway from the family and at
week's time it was like, oh well, I'm stressed out because X, y
and Z was happening right, andit's because we have to work in
a certain way at home.
And then all of a sudden in aweek's time they were in a nice

(57:12):
detention center with theirparents or for like an instance
for myself where it's like, well, you know, I am having a
challenge because whenever I aminteracting with a certain
teacher and I tell her that I'mnot getting this thing, she has.
All this name calling has tohappen and instead of it being

(57:37):
addressed with the teacher, thatis probably not the way, that
is not a conducive way, in myunderstanding, you know, for me
to be able to a generative wayfor me to be able to get the
thing done, I was taken out ofAPR like honored level classes
and basically dropped down.
So it's like are you going?
I think that there is a history, or even, you know, being an

(57:59):
administrator, and I think thatthis is also where the privilege
comes in, where I'm like I have.
I was running a program that wasprograms that are deeply tied
with school, but I'm notnecessarily under the same, like
you know.
I'm like of it but I'm not ofit and you're dealing with.

(58:20):
I had this instance that isstill challenging for me to
think through for this day,where I have these students
taking a very difficult classand the ways in which this
person feels that it'smotivating and maybe has been in
the case, is to say you know,out of all these students that
are taking a chance and takingthis really hard class, only
three of you are going to passbecause the majority of you

(58:42):
don't have.
I could see your scores andthis whole, like you telling me
you're having an issue with thehomework, there's no way you're
going to pass this class, and sobringing that teacher into a
restorative practice and havinga conversation with the chair of
that space and being like, okay, so this is the way that we
have found this helpful for ourstudents.

(59:02):
What are some of the ways thatwe can kind of find a middle
ground to like, move and operatein that way?
Because what I would, I am,what I am noticing right now is
that that's not helping.
But again, that could have onlyhappened if there was a
container that had already beenin a place where students could
be like, listen.
The reason why because you knowwe used to get progress support
the reason why I'm not doingwell in this class is because

(59:23):
what's the point?
This person is telling methere's no way that I'm going to
do well in this class, andthat's after me asking for help.
So I think that there is, justlike all these different ways in
which, going back to thisactive listening piece, people
are reacting to young peoplebeing vulnerable instead of
figuring out ways to understandwhere they're trying to come
from and co create solutions tothe challenges that they're

(59:47):
dealing with.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
It's not like these things are unique to Florida or
the South right, like theseattitudes exist in our liberal
or progressive bastions of, youknow, southern California, the
Bay Area.
Northwest Chicago you know, dc,denver, minneapolis, new York
and now I'm.
Boston, and now I'm justshouting out like the most

(01:00:09):
downloaded areas of this podcast, right, but like they're urban
centers where there are peoplewho, like, generally believe in
these ways, but like theseattitudes and these structures
still exist in the institutionsthat you're participating in.
And like what are the ways that,like we, can, you know, make
legislative policy changes?
Sure, if that's what you're,that's where your energy is.

(01:00:30):
But, like what are theindividual choices you can make
within your sphere of influenceto create the conditions where
students, young people, can beempowered, can succeed in?
You know, all these beautifulways?

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Yeah, I think that that's really so.
Agent Rhee Brown is an amazingwriter and has this super dope
book called Emergent Strategies,and one of the things that's an
Emergent Strategies is small asall, and the small reflects the
whole, but small as all.
That was a really importantreframe for me, because part of

(01:01:03):
the challenge that I have intrying to keep using I
statements is sometimes doingthis work.
It can feel like all of thesechallenges are so intermoutable,
they're so big and they run sodeep from a top down perspective
that it can feel likeoverwhelming, like what exactly
can I do when I'm living in thissystem?
That's kind of like set up forme to feel like I'm down.

(01:01:26):
And the small as all was reallyimpactful to me because it's
like just like in nature.
It's these small changes thathappen that then lead to a
ripple effect that then shiftslarger and that's the mushrooms
work.
It's this small mushroomworking on a thing that's
connected with what's mymushroom homies on my left and
my right doing that then totallylike shift, how the whole

(01:01:50):
Marcian network like operates.
And so if we're taking giftsfrom nature because we are of
nature and we're just thinkingabout in our small and the ways
that we move in our smalliterations and our small
interactions that we have.
What are some shifts that wecan make to be in alignment with
the world that we want to see?
That's enough, and that willtend to a ripple effect to your

(01:02:13):
point.
If you're talking as a teacherand you're just like, listen,
this is the way that I'm tryingto move in this classroom, you
might inspire other teachers todo the same and then you find
alignment there and have it justripples in that way.
But it is really what are somesmall moves that you can make in
your own interaction that willthen ripple to the large.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Absolutely Right.
Some of those things are likeskill building for yourself.
Some of those things are likehaving these kind of
conversations with yourcolleagues, your family members
right, Doing this work as aperson showing up in whatever
spaces that you're in.
So that's the invitation Timefor the questions that everybody
answers when they come on thispodcast.

(01:02:57):
You already answered thedefined restorative justice for
yourself, so we're going to skipover that one.
As you've been doing this work,what's been an oh shit moment
and what did you learn from it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
I think you can take this in two ways.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
It could be like oh shit, like I messed up and I
wish I did something different.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Or it could be like oh shit, I did that and it was
awesome, oh, that's so good,okay, what has been an all shit
moment, I think.
So targeting back to that likean oh shit moment was definitely
that moment with the student onthe bus, because it's like, oh,

(01:03:34):
it's so easy to slip into that,like it's so easy, and it
really could have gone off theradar and I really could have
just ignored it because it couldhave been quote, unquote,
justifiable.
And it was a moment where Ireally had to be like, okay,
like, but how do I opt in again,like I was sharing before, like
in the world that I want to see, especially if I'm asking these

(01:03:57):
youth to move or the invitationfor these youth is extended for
these youth to move in acertain way, what am I doing to
do the same?
And then I think like oh shitmoment, like oh shit is.

(01:04:18):
I'm like thinking there's likeso many great moments with my
students.
I have to say I've beenfortunate enough in that way,
just having, I think, one.
So one of these moments I had astudent who came in and we had
to move through a lot ofdifferent restorative practices
with them because there was alot of compounding challenges,

(01:04:39):
but this person was very quiet.
I think it took like a month toeven hear them speak in the
large group, but when theygraduated the program, they gave
a speech to the whole class andthey talked about how the ways
in which they were held by theircoach because each small group

(01:05:04):
had a coach and then me as themanager of the program, they
were just very specific and likebeing held in this way allowed
me to understand that I canpractice my voice in these very
specific ways and I'm going totake that with me and the
cybersecurity work that I'mgoing to do.

(01:05:24):
And it just made me reallyrealize the power of
facilitation in that way whereit's like I didn't think that
you were going to, I didn't, youknow, I didn't, I was just
trying to move in a way that wasin alignment with the world
that I want to see, and it wasreally beautiful to be like oh,
a reminder that these, theirripple effects are really a real
.
They're real ripple effectshere, whether you see it or not,

(01:05:46):
and because we had to movethrough so many processes
because of these compoundingchallenges, I was almost like I
hope that this person doesn'tleave with like exhausted and
the opposite happened and thatwas yeah, that was really,
really sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Modeling to students, right, like is so powerful.
Right, because, again, likethat's that modeling that we
need to do, and like it'sprobably unexpected from that
student.
I'm thinking about like even atime when I like, justifiably,
like shut down a student who isbeing rude in the middle of a

(01:06:28):
workshop that I was facilitating, right, like I shut them down,
like effectively right, and likewe're moving on right, and then
, like, circling back to that,like they understood, like they
were out of pocket, theyunderstood that like I wasn't
trying to be me, but like theway that it came across, the way
that I did that, like Alyssadid it, like it oooof from the
rest of the class right.

(01:06:50):
And like dang.
I do not want that to be theimpact of the like.
I'm just like trying to move onand like understanding that
that's the moment where thatstudents now embarrassed.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Yes, Like managing your intention, but centering
the impact.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Right, like, making sure that, like, even though,
like, I'm probably not going tosee that person again because,
like I don't, like, like I'm notworking at that school in that
capacity anymore, right, butwhat are the ways that, like,
that student is now going tothink of restorative justice
where we're like, hey, that meanguy, yeah, you're like,

(01:07:25):
embarrassed me about restorativeinstead of like, oh, this guy
like said a thing, had an impact, right, but then was
accountable to it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
It's super important to like be able to model.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
And then, like that second thing that you were
saying, right, it was like, yeah, success looks so different.
Right, the ability, like justbecause, like that student
wasn't, like sharing, likeeverything all the time, like
doesn't mean that, like yourwork isn't impactful, right, and
like sometimes you'll neverknow the fruits of your work.
It's beautiful that you hadthat opportunity to hear that on

(01:07:58):
the back end or like the end ofthat program.
But oh, so many good things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Now you get to sit in circle with four people.
Oh who are they and what is theone question you asked that
circle?

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Oh, what is the one question?
Oh man, okay.
Okay, fred Hampton has to bethere.
Oh, only one question.
Okay, sorry, it's okay, I thinkit has to be there.
Paulie Murray has to be there,and maybe someone all those

(01:08:39):
people are dead, so maybesomeone that's alive to support
in the aliveness of it all,alexis Paulingum, yes, so who's
sorry, did you say, like PaulieMurray?
Paulie Murray yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
Who is that?

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Paulie Murray.
Is this their title act?
Their full name would beReverend Paulie Murray, and they
were I hope I'm going to getthis right and rip me through in
the comments if I don't butPaulie Murray actually was the
person that wrote a conceptpaper, which they a million and
17,000 things, but one of thethings that they did was they

(01:09:23):
wrote the concept paper thatthen became the basis for Ruth
Gader Ginsburg argument in theSupreme Court and also fueled
the argument that ThurgoodMarshall was using for Brown
versus the Board of Education.
Can you show them if I'm sayingthat one right, because that's
not Plessy versus Burgundy?
So Anne was also in theiraccounts because they have very

(01:09:47):
detailed diaries that they leftbehind as a gender expansive
person and had a lot ofdetailing and connealing like
what the challenges that thatlook like in trying to move
through that.
And so there was this person,in the same vein of all these
people that I'm bringing in,that like, had this
understanding and like thisportal of what being can look

(01:10:10):
like that was just not alive orwas not vivid to the society
that they were living in themoment, and so they wrote these
papers that were influential.
They then became Reverend,which was wild because of black
person that was socialized as awoman.
Becoming a Reverend was likewait a minute, what's going on
here?
And so Pauli Murray yeah,there's a lot of I could.

(01:10:32):
We would need an episode totalk about all the impacts that
Pauli Murray has on us today.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Can you say that in one sentence or?

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
two yeah, Pauli Murray was a gender expansive
person who wrote a lot ofconcept papers while they were
only in college.
That became the basis for a lotof foundational Supreme court
cases that were beneficial toall marginalized communities

(01:11:01):
today.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
And what is the one question you'll ask the circle?

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
What is the one question?
That's hard.
What is the one question Iwould ask this group of folks?
Something like what is theirwish for the future?
Like knowing what you know now.
What is your wish for thefuture?

(01:11:25):
Like the expansion of what youknow now for the future.
This is hard.
I wish I would have gotten thisquestion, this question, before
, so I could have mulled over it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
No worries, it's always better in the moment, and
what you probably weren'texpecting maybe you were is now.
I'm going to flip that questionto you.
Oh God, no it was not, so whatis your wish?

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Tricky, tricky.
Okay, what is my wish?
Knowing what I know now?
What is my wish for the future?
I would say, knowing what Iknow now, which is, especially
we're in like this moment ofthese strikes that are happening
, we're coming off of the cuspof all these uprisings that are
happening in different ways.

(01:12:09):
I think what I know, and whathas been fortified now, is how
powerful we are as a collective,and my wish for the future is
that our social contract isrewritten to center the
collective.
I don't know what that lookslike because I'm not in the

(01:12:31):
future just yet, but that's myhope and I hope youth and elders
are the ones that are writingit Dang.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Sometimes I like to leave those as they are, but
like it's hanging, so I leave itthere.
So like I want to follow up,Please.
When you're saying youth andelders are the one that write it
.
That's excluding who.
Who's that excluding?

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
That's a great question.
Wow, that's a great question.
Excluding For me?
Okay, I have to think of who'sthat including for when I'm
saying excluding.
So for me, anyone under the ageof 30 would be considered youth
, and then anybody over the ageof we'll say like what, like 65

(01:13:16):
and up would be elders.
And then us, we're those thatare in those, because, math,
those are in the middle of that.
That's we.
Those are excluded, we'reexcluded.
We're tasked with figuring outhow to fuel the vision of the

(01:13:36):
elders.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
I sense that you don't like the framing of that
question.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
I appreciate it though, which is fine.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
Which is fine, because, like and like I'm just
reflecting back what I heardLike they're the people who
should do it, so like who?

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
shouldn't be, is like is the backside and then and
like the follow up to.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
That is why.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
Yeah, that's a great I can do.
I think that youth, so youth,have such a palpable
understanding of whatexpansiveness looks like because
the depth of programming hasn'thappened yet in my brain.
That's what I think, and also Idon't know.
I feel like when you're talkingto like have you talked to like

(01:14:17):
a seven year old and you'retrying to make sense of the
thing I have a teacher,professor that's like if you can
explain something to a sevenyear old and you don't really
understand it, that well, andthey are just like, but that,
like you know, they'll just feellike, come up with these, but
why not just do this, this andthat?
And you, as a person who's beenlike programming this way, it's

(01:14:37):
just like well, you know,because you got to pay your
taxes, there's all thesebarriers come to your mind and
that is not the case.
For I should say in myexperience I have not
experienced that to be the case.
For when you're talking toyoung people about how things
can get accomplished and alsoit's their future that they're
going to have to inherit, sothere's that.
And then I think with elders,there's a lived experience and a

(01:15:00):
wealth of ways in which they'vehad to adapt and move.
I'm thinking of specificallylike black, indigenous, brown
people, that that lives.
They're like living librariesand that is important to serve
as a foundation to these, thesevisions and imaginations that

(01:15:23):
these young folks have for thefuture, and I think the
collaboration of those twoelements would make for like the
dopest world.
Like I think about these youngpeople who sued the government.
They were like what?
13, 14 years old who sued thegovernment because they're
fucking with their air.
13 and 14 year olds suing thegovernment because of the like

(01:15:45):
what you know that is so wild.
And then I'm curious to knowlike how what that you know
collaboration looks like withmaybe the elders that are that
we're protecting the telescopeon one of the islands in Hawaii
and we're literally laying theirbody down.
Like what does that crosscollaboration look like?
And I think, especially inindigenous communities you see

(01:16:05):
that more vividly.
But I'm just like we need toscale that up.
You need to scale that practiceup.
So that's what I'm about.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
So, so true, and as we get out here, we've got the
conference.
But tell people how else theycan support you, your work, in
the way that you want to besupported.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am also a contractor and aconsultant doing different work.
You can hit me up at info atU360ideasorg and there's also a
website that you can do and thatis U360ideasorg.
Please check out for JARorg,where you have the registration

(01:16:42):
page for our conference.
That's happening October 20thto the 22nd and you can also
submit a workshop if you feel socalled and moved to.
But again, that is on forJARorg and the conference is on
the 20th to the 22nd of October.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
Beautiful.
Yeah, Well, again, thank you somuch, Q, for your time, your
stories, your experiences, thestaffs.
We'll be back next weekhighlighting another restorative
justice practitioner doing thework in the South and until then
, y'all take care.