August 31, 2023 • 69 mins
Cindy Mahendar is a Training and Operations Manager for the Healing and Justice Center and an alumni of Dream Defenders.
Our conversation takes a fascinating turn as Cindy discusses the alternative initiatives implemented by the Healing and Justice Center. From a mobile crisis unit to a peacemaker team, Cindy and her team paint a picture of a reimagined approach to navigating conflict and harm. Her candid sharing of the project's highs and lows offers a thorough understanding of the unique challenges and rewards of their work.
Support Cindy!
Websites:
https://www.dreamdefenders.org/
https://www.healingandjusticecenter.org/
Connect with us on:
Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Threads, YouTube, and TikTok!
SUPPORT by sharing this podcast and leaving a rating or review
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:04):
Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
I'm your host, david Ryan,barcaga, castro, harris All five
names for all the ancestors andtoday I'm here with Cindy
Mahendar to dive deep into theway that restorative justice and
transformative justice haveplayed a role in her personal
and professional life.
This is a part of ourcontinuing series highlighting
(00:25):
restorative justice in the South, shouting out many of the
people who are doing this workin Florida, south Florida,
specifically, both as a way tohighlight the work that is going
on, but also as our previousguests have shared.
You know, we've got thisrestorative justice conference
coming up RJ the remix exploring, living and expanding
(00:46):
restorative practices for thedown south community, october 20
through 22 of this year.
All the information you need toneed to know about that is at
floridoverstoratofjusticecom.
For those of you who havealready heard about that, signed
up for this and are ready todive into our conversation with
Cindy, here we go.
So, cindy, welcome to thisrestorative justice life.
(01:07):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:10):
Awesome.
Thank you, I'm really excitedto be here.
I am Cindy.
I use she and they pronouns Iam the.
I'm currently the training andoperations manager for the
healing and justice center, butfor the past five years I've
been the transformative justicecoordinator at dream defenders.
David (01:32):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:35):
I am a mom of Angela and stepmom of Aiden.
David (01:42):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:46):
I am a queer Caribbean small island, small coming from
a small village with a bigfamily, immigrant survivor of
many things.
David (02:06):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:09):
I am a daughter and sibling.
David (02:19):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:21):
I am a spaceholder for my community.
David (02:28):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:31):
I am somebody on a never ending healing journey.
David (02:37):
And finally for now, who are you?
Cindy (02:41):
I am Cindy and I use she.
David (02:43):
they pronouns so grateful to have you here, so grateful
to make this connection.
We're going to get to theintersections of so many of
those things over the course ofthis next little bit, but it's
always good to start ourconversations with checking in,
so, to the fullest extent thatyou want to answer the question
right now, how are you?
Cindy (03:03):
I am doing okay.
I had a question the other dayabout rows and thorn.
I don't know.
It's a practice that we do alot in community spaces.
Just what's your rose?
Something sweet.
What's your thorn?
Something like ouch.
My rose is that healing is notlinear and my thorn is also.
(03:24):
Healing is not linear.
So, dealing with a lot of griefthis year, but also finding
moments of joy, pleasure,enjoyment in life and just being
really grounded in my faith andreally grounded in who I am.
David (03:42):
Yeah, I think it's really important to have those things
that help ground you.
If you said for your faith andI'll ask in a second, like how
do you return back to who youare?
But, reflecting over the courseof the last almost three years
that we've been doing thispodcast, the how are you of it
all is always in flux.
Right In late 2020, there was alot of heaviness in those
(04:06):
answers, because that's what waspresent for a lot of folks and
even within that heaviness,there are still moments of light
, love and joy.
You talked about being groundedin your faith and being
grounded in yourself.
I'm curious what are some ofthose practices that are helpful
for you to stay that way?
Cindy (04:24):
Yeah, so I recently transitioned into being the
Training and Operations Managerfor the Healing and Justice
Center and a part of that roleis coming into the office every
day and doing our operations.
And I found that a practice isreally like only listening to
meditations and music.
(04:47):
That is like the lo-fi hip hopbeats and just really music.
That's really serene, calmingand just having a good practice
in the morning of a light, myincense, or a lighter candle or
something like that.
And then we have this reallyawesome card deck that was
(05:08):
created it's an affirmation carddeck called the Sacred Ori card
deck and it was created by theperson who trained me in
restorative justice and it's anaffirmation deck on catching
communities, doing the work ofcatching communities, of holding
our communities, and so I pulla card every morning when I come
(05:33):
in to just kind of set the tonefor my day.
And that's a practice that I'vereally been leaning into, not
only for myself but for theoffice space and anyone who
comes in and utilizes our officespace.
David (05:48):
I'll put a link in the description for those who are
interested in that deck.
But what has that practice ofthe intentionality of pulling
cards, lighting candles,lighting incense having that
vibe?
What has that done for you andyour community?
Cindy (06:02):
Yeah, I think for me it's been.
It's grounded me and helped mejust really take a moment to
myself to get in touch with whoI am and get a good routine and
(06:24):
just feel like I'm coming inwith intention for the day and
that I'm just manifesting aclear head, a clear mental space
, a clear spiritual space, aclear physical space.
I think earlier this year wasreally rough for so many reasons
(06:46):
, Like personally, within DreamDefenders, we lost a comrade of
ours.
That was really heavy.
And so just going back to thepractice of like being present,
for in that moment that I'mlighting an incense, I'm present
(07:07):
in that moment pulling my cardevery day.
It's an affirmation that I sayevery day that allows me to like
sustain through challengingtimes and over the course of
time, I feel like when I'm nolonger in a challenging space,
I'm coming out of it feelingreally grounded.
David (07:30):
I think what's so important to remember again is
that people who listen to thispodcast will be familiar with me
saying this.
When we think about these ideasof presence and tensionality,
it's a lot easier for us to liverestored in values.
People just need to be remindedso much more than we need to be
(07:53):
taught.
If people sit down and start tothink about what is the thing
that we'll do that will serveour relationships here, that
will help us build, repair,strengthen our relationships,
rid of equity and trust.
The answers are often prettyclear, but engaging in practices
that will help remind us ofwanting to be that way, or
remind us of the sacredness ofourselves, the sacredness of our
(08:15):
human relationships, goes along way into, yes, being able
to repair harm when it happens,but probably preventing things
from popping off day to day,moment to moment.
I know that's not alwayspossible for some folks, but
thank you so much for sharingthat practice and the impact
that it's been having on yourcommunity.
I've been thinking a lot abouthow restorative justice is a
(08:40):
formal set of words, but thepractices around it are probably
things that you've been engagedin before you even knew the
term.
So, in your own words, how didyour journey with this work.
Get started for you.
Cindy (08:52):
Yeah, so I think I want to talk about my formal, my kind
of formal introduction torestorative justice.
I went to York University inToronto and I was in a program
called Human Rights and EquityStudies.
(09:13):
I was studying, I had a courseon social movements and we had
to present at the end of ourcourse, you know, a project
around a social movement, teachthe rest of the class about it.
And I was, like you know,feeling I was kind of in leftish
(09:34):
spaces, being radicalized oncampus through different social
groups and things like that andthrough what I was studying and
learning in class.
So I was like in this phasewhere I want to pick the most
radical thing that I can thinkof and present on it, and I
(09:54):
ended up picking the prisonabolition movement, which I knew
nothing about, and I was justlike this is a thing that came
up on like a list or some sort,and I presented on it and I
don't think I did a very goodjob.
I got a lot of challenge, I gota lot of pushback from my
(10:15):
classmates, but one thing thathappened was I was transformed.
I was now like this feels likeit makes sense to me and this is
something that I want to getmore into.
I want to learn more about.
I started like developing ahunger.
Then I learned more aboutrestorative justice through the
(10:36):
prison abolition movement as away of if we don't have police
in prisons, we need to be ableto repair relationships and
restore our communities.
So I went on this path oflearning about restorative
justice through that lens ofprison abolition and then
(10:59):
studying more about it, and thenI ended up applying to my
masters in South Florida inconflict resolution and I had
some expectation of, hmm, maybethis is going to be a lot like
restorative justice.
It was nothing.
It was not about how therestorative justice class.
(11:20):
It was nothing aboutrestorative justice.
It was all about a very Westernconflict resolution focused
ways of dealing with conflictfrom all different types of
levels of businesses or warzones, things like that.
(11:42):
But restorative justice nevercame up.
So I felt a little let down bythat, although I developed some
really excellent skills aroundmediation and facilitation and
met a lot of cool people.
But it wasn't until I joinedDream Defenders after my
(12:03):
master's program that I reallywas introduced to restorative
justice and actually got trained.
So that was kind of like my arc.
But thinking about learningrestorative justice really
taught me that the harms that Iexperienced as a child, or the
(12:28):
harms that happened in mychildhood, is what I really
needed.
That and I wanted.
That gave me really a passionof wanting to do more and hold
space for others in a way that Ididn't have space held for me.
(12:48):
And throughout my life I feellike there's so many, so many
instances throughout my lifewhere I can think about.
You know, if I had thisoffering available to me or that
was accessible to me, ofrepairing relationship,
repairing harm, I think it itwould have afforded me a certain
(13:09):
level of healing from thoseharms that I experienced.
I don't feel like I had accessto or had answers to when you
thought about choosing prisonabolition as the most radical
thing.
David (13:25):
It sounds like you didn't have like these ideas in mind.
I'm curious what thattransformation like.
How would you articulate thattransformation that you
underwent by doing that work, byengaging with the critiques?
Cindy (13:41):
yeah.
So I mean, the first thing Idid was read our prisons
obsolete by Angela Davis and atthe time I think I was studying
a lot of like I was.
I was also reading like fromSwannone, I was also reading
more about and learning moreabout the Black Panther movement
in a context that I feel like Ihad it before.
(14:06):
And growing up in Trinidad andthen, you know, living in
Florida for part of my life aswell, I don't think I was
exposed to those types ofhistories, those types of
theories, and I think the morethat I studied, the more I
resonated with my life and myexperiences really resonated and
(14:33):
I found a place of my path andI don't know how to articulate
it other than you know.
I really found my path andcontinued to carve my way
through yeah, even in thosemoments of challenge from your
(14:54):
classmates.
David (14:54):
But, like you know, I imagine some of the critiques
were like but we need prisonsand we need police to keep us
safe, right, what was it aboutthe things that you experienced
as a child and like, coming tothis new knowledge that like
helped you navigate those atthat time?
Right, I'm sure you couldarticulate it better now than
(15:16):
you did then.
What was it in that moment thatlike helped you navigate all
those things?
Cindy (15:20):
I think at the time I was just like I was more so
understanding or trying toexplain that prison shouldn't
and police shouldn't be thefoundation of how we deal with
harm and conflict.
And I also think at the time,you know, I maybe I was less
(15:43):
drawn on my experience, but moreso on like the injustice felt
really like the injustice andthe mass, the harms of mass
incarceration felt reallyresonating in terms of like I
never saw, I know I didn't growup seeing or interacting with
(16:07):
police or I didn't even knowwhere the jail was or prison
prisons were, but it doesn'tmean that it didn't exist or
harms didn't exist.
We figured out ways of likedealing with harm in my
community, yeah, and we figuredout how to do things.
(16:28):
So it made a lot of sense to mewhen Angela Davis was saying
you know, prisons don'tdisappear social problems, they
disappear people, and so that Ithink really resonated with me
and I was trying to articulateit at the time, but maybe not in
the best way, but just thinkingof like we don't need mass
(16:51):
incarceration, we need to findlike incarceration isn't the
answer to all of our problems insociety.
David (16:59):
So I think that was the way I was navigating it back
then and I still believe thatobviously I've built a lot of my
knowledge since then yeah, whenyou said that we had other ways
of navigating conflict and harmin your community, what did
that look like?
Cindy (17:16):
yeah, so I think about it a lot.
I think about stories of I grewup in a small village in
Trinidad.
My grandmother was.
I hear stories that my myparents or my aunts would tell
me of like my grandma picking upas many kids as of her kids as
(17:39):
possible to like escape from mygrandfather's use of alcohol and
alcohol abuse that was causingconflict and harm to my
grandmother.
And so I just think about youknow, where did she go to find
safety right in that time?
She's like I'm picking up asmany of my kids as possible and
(18:01):
I'm going to find safety in myneighbors or my family members,
but just knowing that safetyhappened right, or there's some
sort of motivation to findsafety and to be safe.
And I also think about you know, kind of like the repair part.
(18:26):
My mom recently told me that mygrandma would make my grandpa
pay her to like do his laundryand cook for him and the
domestic work that she was doing.
And I was like, wow, my grandmawas like such a feminist in the
fact that you know I'm not hereto tolerate your abuse or your
(18:51):
alcoholism or whatever it isthat was harm, the harms that
you're creating for me.
I'm not here to tolerate it.
Like we, we have to figure outa way to live together, and that
way that we live together is welive in separate rooms in the
house and you're gonna pay me,and so just those like really
creative things that my ownfamily did.
(19:13):
I grew up not necessarilyknowing the full picture, but I
knew that my grandparents livedin separate rooms.
But, yeah, some of those waysthat we are innovative, I think
comes from like our generations,of our families, like figuring
out how, how are we gonnanavigate this, because harm is
(19:39):
just so pervasive and we want tofigure it out right, when we're
speaking specifically aboutdomestic violence, right and
abuse.
David (19:50):
Police are terrible at addressing those harms.
Right, and you know, I don'tknow what the circumstances on
Trinidad would have been foryour grandma reporting that to
the police.
You know however many years ago, however many decades ago that
was, but the outcomes probablyhave looked like because of
(20:10):
patriarchy, right, it would havelooked like go home to your
husband or something like that.
Right, and figuring out otherways to get safety you talked
about, like through neighbors,through setting boundaries for
yourself, like is reallyimportant.
That looks different in everycontext.
Right, and one of the thingsthat I like to talk about a lot
(20:33):
when we're talking aboutrestorative justice is like
these values of interconnectionand the ways that we are forced
to our communities when ourcommunities, before late-stage
global capitalism and as aresult of imperialism and
colonization and all thesethings, have caused us to
outsource conflict resolution.
(20:54):
Right, that might be MiriamKaba that I'm paraphrasing at
this moment.
Right, outsource our conflictresolution to the state, to
police, to the justice, to thecriminal legal system and a lot
of community care, to socialservice agencies with often can
be beneficial and meet needs,but sometimes they're also
(21:14):
operating at the will of thestate or operating at the will
of funders, who may or may nothave resources, and so what are
the ways that we can build incommunity to make sure that
we're meeting those needs?
I know that's part of the workthat dream defenders is doing.
Tell us how you got to dreamdefenders and tell us about the
work that you're continuing tokeep alive now yeah.
Cindy (21:37):
So I got to dream defenders after working at a
nonprofit.
That was like I was beingreally overworked.
I wasn't like I would just gohome.
I mean, I would just go to work.
I would come home, I would justlay in my bed feeling like
debilitated just by thenon-profit, nonprofit industrial
(21:57):
complex.
Like you know, you feel likeyou're working but it's never
enough and you can never likeyou can never meet the needs of
everyone.
So it it's.
It was really debilitating.
At some point I was just like,fuck it, I'm gonna quit.
I was also not beingcompensated for like with
full-time benefits, even thoughthey had me working full-time
(22:19):
hours.
So that was the whole thing.
So I was like fuck it, I leftand I just quit, with no plan.
I was just like I know, I can,like I can do tutoring because I
was doing it a little bit onthe side for just some extra
cash.
So I was like I could just pickup more clients until I figure
(22:40):
it out.
And then I saw dream defendershad a fellowship and I was like,
yes, I'm gonna apply.
And the fellowship was around.
It was an organizer positiongetting amendment for past,
which is the right restorationamendment that we had back in
(23:02):
2018, voting rights for folkswho are formerly incarcerated,
getting their rights back tovote, was a part of the campaign
that we were working on at thetime and I was brought on during
that time to work on thatcampaign and also talk to
community members about thefreedom papers, which the
(23:23):
freedom papers is our vision forour North Star, of how we view
the world, and it consists ofseven freedoms, and we talked to
people about what it would belike to have live in a world
without police at prisons, wherewe're free from war and
destruction or we're free frompoverty we have.
(23:46):
We live in a democraticsocieties, things like that.
So, organizing, getting to knowfolks in the community around
me, talking to people aboutgetting rights restored for
formerly incarcerated folks thatwas the work I was doing in
2018 and then from there I wasreally I met with a lot of it.
(24:14):
I met a lot of incredible folks,went to training that Miriam
Kaba came down to Miami to do atraining with us.
I also met Adajare, who is a TJpractitioner and therapist in
(24:37):
South Florida, and I met Ruth,who we spoke about a little bit
earlier.
She had created the cards,trained me in circle keeping and
I also met Stas and Lee fromSpring Up who are incredible,
incredible folks and that waskind of like my network of folks
(25:01):
that really mentored me,trained me up.
I did a fellowship with SpringUp around consent.
It was a consent fellowship andthrough there that was kind of
like my development path intotransitioning into the
transformative justicecoordinator over at Dream
(25:24):
Defenders.
David (25:25):
Yeah, you know you covered a lot there, and I'm
sure there are plenty of lessonsto pull out from each of those
stops.
What I want to start with isthinking about the nature of
community organizing around aballot initiative, but also, at
the same time, sharing yourvision for the world.
As much as you're eliciting,hey, we need you to go vote for
(25:48):
this thing, because people inour community need their rights.
It goes beyond that, and so I'mcurious what your experience
was like.
Sharing that freedom papers,setting a vision at the same
time.
Hey, go vote.
Hey, go vote With people inFlorida, right South Florida.
We're talking about anenvironment where these ideas
(26:11):
aren't in public consciousnessall that often.
What was your experience?
Having those kind ofconversations?
Cindy (26:18):
Yeah, I think South Florida is so unique because we
have huge immigrant populations,folks from all over the world,
the Caribbean in particular, andwe have pockets of really deep
rooted racist whiteness.
So South Florida is so unique.
(26:40):
A really great part of thattime was a lot of organizations
were really excited about thisballot initiative and it was a
really energizing time inorganizing in South Florida.
So I think today the organizinglandscape is very different in
(27:05):
Florida.
At the time we were actuallyalso excited about getting
Andrew Gillum into office aswell.
So I think it was a time whereI remember having like a freedom
brunch at my house and justinviting folks over and we
talked about the freedom papers.
We folks signed up, signedpledges to pledge that they're
(27:30):
voting yes on this amendment,and we were also just in
community together sharing food,breaking bread.
So for me, when I look back, itwas like an energizing, a
really energizing time.
That is so different, I thinknow in the political landscape
that is so different and so muchharder now.
David (27:53):
Yeah.
Cindy (27:54):
And it maybe was back then and there were so many
different organizations thatwere already on board by the
time I came in that we werereally.
There was so much foundationthat was laid before I even came
in.
I mean years and years of folksorganizing around getting this
(28:14):
amendment, even on the ballot,to be passed.
I feel like I came in at thetail end, so it was a lot of
folks doing organizing for along time around this issue, and
so it was helpful to be incommunity with folks who have
been doing it longer to kind ofshow me the ropes, and it wasn't
(28:35):
a conversation, it was folkswho are already having that
conversation.
David (28:39):
So the people that I interacted with whether it's on
college campuses or communityevents, folks who are more
receptive and more familiaralready- yeah, I think it's
important, like electoralpolitics have their place and
have their importance, like wecan't deny the benefits and the
harm that can come from all thatand the real world impacts.
(29:01):
I should say just overall, andwhen you're telling people like
hey, vote for this because it'sgiving people the right back,
that's an easy action thatpeople can take.
But when you're thinking aboutsetting this vision for a more
liberated, democratic societywhere people and communities
have what they need, what didthat look like and what has that
(29:22):
looked like?
Cindy (29:24):
Yeah, well, we started doing freedom sessions so we
would ask folks to come in andkind of it's in a way of like
storytelling.
So we would come together andwe would ask folks about their
own experiences related topolice, in prisons, and then we
(29:44):
would talk about relate thoseexperiences to the larger vision
of our freedom papers.
And so it's endlessstorytelling, asking the right
questions, where we're bringingpeople into the work through
these conversations that we'rehaving, whether it's a brunch or
(30:04):
we've called them freedomsessions, which are kind of like
house meetings, and so that'ssome of the ways that people are
like yes, I do want to vote onthis thing because I believe for
X, y, z, whatever reason thatthey give, and do you want to
(30:27):
come to talk more about thevision that we have for the
state of Florida, because thisisn't the end, like we have a
bigger vision here that we wantto work towards.
So people were excited to meetother folks that were thinking
(30:48):
about this larger vision andthinking about these larger
ideas.
David (30:53):
Yeah, when I think about doing organizing right,
community work through arestorative lens, it's an
invitation, right, it's notsaying like this is the way that
things are going to be, becauseI say so and I have all this
experience as a restorativejustice practitioner right, Both
in a community setting, in anorganization, in a school,
(31:14):
whatever it is.
But this opportunity to allowpeople to share their stories,
highlight their needs andhighlight the ways that
restorative or transformativejustice can be a better way
forward is so important, right,Folks can check out the Dream
Defenders website where we havethese freedom papers freedom to
be, freedom from war, violence,environmental destruction,
(31:40):
freedom of movement, freeflourishing, democracy, freedom
of mind, freedom from poverty,freedom from police and prisons.
Who disagrees with this?
Right, there are people, I'msure.
But when you invite people totell their stories and when you
tell people your stories, it'sso much more likely that they'll
(32:02):
at least start to build arelationship and engage in
conversation with you, ratherthan say like these are the
things that you need to believe.
This is what we're workingtowards.
Get on board.
Right, it's slower initially,right, you know the work of
those freedom brunches andsharing the vision of the
freedom papers is important toshaping some of the work that
(32:22):
you all have been doing.
I know you're, you know,running in many ways the healing
and justice center.
How did that come about?
Cindy (32:32):
Yeah, so in 2015, I wasn't here at the time, but in
2015, dream Defenders did a deepcommunity listening project
around the state, asking folkslike what keeps our community
safe?
And so, or what is it thatpeople are noticing in their
(32:55):
communities?
What are the biggest issues?
Just questions around what dowe need in our community to
really be safe?
And so most people and we weregoing around telling people we
need to abolish prisons andpolice as well, and people were
like, yeah, police and prisonsare bad, but what do we have
(33:16):
instead?
Like what are our other options?
So the Healing and JusticeCenter really came about with as
a response of years after ofbuilding out well this is what
we wanna offer to community.
If we're going around sayingthat we're abolishing police and
(33:40):
prisons and our vision is toget rid of police and prisons.
We have to be able to offersomething and it's not the
answer.
But it's a part of imagining.
It's a part of like showing up,like we can create a thing that
can serve our community's needsand people, in many different
(34:04):
ways, can create a thing toserve community needs.
And we also need organizing too.
But it's really an example ofus of building really slowly and
really intentionally buildingout alternative programs that
(34:27):
people can access, that is notconnected to the police and that
is not connected to prisons,with the intention of
decarceration, with theintention of healing, and that
is community-based, a programthat's community-based.
David (34:48):
Yeah, to your point right .
We don't live in a societywhere the police will go away
tomorrow.
Cindy (34:56):
Right.
David (34:56):
Right, and if they did, what would be in place?
People would probably mostlikely create things that
replicated or were similar topolice right, because we haven't
been socialized to think aboutwhat those alternative
structures look like.
People need this vision.
For those who are listening, gowith me as I say this to
(35:17):
police's credit right, the jobof policing now is so
multifaceted Police are beingasked to respond to all
different kinds of things, right, almost none of what police do
is about preventing or stoppingcrimes, so let's put that out
there.
But when people are asking forwhat is your one solution to
(35:41):
abolishing the police?
Right, there is no one solution, because the police aren't
being asked to do so many thingsin the context of our society
and so giving abolitionists thespace to dream.
As Miriam Kup says, it's gonnatake a million little
experiments, right, to figureout what works in your community
(36:01):
.
Probably around principles oftransformative justice.
Probably around principles ofrestorative justice, right,
identifying impact, harm andmeeting the needs, transforming
the conditions under which harmis happening.
Those are probably important,but the specific manifestation
of that is gonna look differentin every situation.
That's beautiful in theory.
What are the practical thingsthat y'all have put in place?
(36:22):
What are the programs andcommunities that you're building
to allow people to imagine aworld without police.
Cindy (36:30):
Yeah, so firstly, we have a mobile crisis unit that goes
out to respond to folks who arehaving mental health emergencies
and they don't wanna call thepolice or can't call the police
or call 911.
In Florida we have what'scalled the Baker Act system, so
(36:50):
we're trying to respond to folksto avoid folks from having to
be forced to be hospitalized orhaving to be forced to be
incarcerated.
So our mobile crisis unit isone thing that we offer.
It's 1-866-SAFE-MIA.
It can call a number and wehave a medic, crisis
(37:15):
interventionist on the team, andthen they also like rotate
schedules, so a medic and acrisis interventionist will come
out to support you, who aredeeply trained in being able to
respond to de-escalation, toidentify mental health disorders
(37:36):
and also health concerns thatcould present as mental health
disorders.
So, yeah, and they'll come outand support a crisis that you're
in and if you meet criteria, wecould also refer you to any
other services that we offer orany other services that we know
(37:56):
are available.
David (37:57):
Right, and the reason people would call this instead
of calling police.
Who like maybe you maybe notshow up with somebody who is
trauma informed, maybe or maybenot showing up with, like
somebody who can provide socialservices?
Right, like why would somebodydo this?
Obviously to, like, avoidconfrontation with police.
But like, what are the otherreasons?
(38:19):
Like people are wanting to useservices like this.
Cindy (38:23):
Yeah, I mean I had a conversation recently with a mom
who was struggling with theirteenager and didn't know, just
really was having a hard timenavigating the healthcare system
, knew that their child had somesort of mental health disorder
(38:43):
but was like misdiagnosed, butfound themselves in episodes of
crisis of like I don't know whatto do and the symptoms or the
way that their child was showingup was like they were afraid
that they were gonna harmthemselves and so would call us.
(39:04):
So that's just like an exampleof someone that is like I'm in
crisis and I don't know what todo.
I really don't know what to do.
David (39:14):
Yeah, you know some people might think like well,
why don't you all just partnerwith your local police
department and like go along forthe ride to be supportive there
?
What's your response there?
Cindy (39:27):
No, we don't wanna be a partner with the police.
We wanna build trust incommunity and we know that
police and the community that wework in we aim to serve there
is not trust and we know thatpolice is not the answer.
Right, we wanna work towards.
(39:48):
A part of the values of theHealing and Justice Center is
working towards a world whereprisons and police don't exist
anymore.
So it'll be counterproductivefor us to work alongside police
if we're trying to eradicatepolice.
Right, we want the money tocome out of the police budgets.
We want money to come out ofprison budgets and we want it to
(40:11):
go to community-basedorganizations that are really in
tune and knowledgeable and likewe're able to build trust in a
way that we're not sendingpeople, we're not ending up in a
position where we're allowingpeople to get sent to prison or
(40:33):
allowing people to get harmed bypolice.
David (40:38):
I imagine this is some of the energy that you're carrying
right, Even though it mightreduce harm in any given
instances, to align yourcommunity, to align your
services, to align what you doto an institution rooted in
(40:59):
catching slaves, right Routed inprotecting property over people
, rooted in the subjugation andtorture of black people, of
people of the global majority ingeneral.
Right Is counterproductiveright and shout out to those of
you who are working within thosesystems, whether police
(41:19):
specifically, or in some wayshape or form, like agents of
the criminal legal system as itexists, Like I understand the
need for the harm reductive workthat you're doing and
appreciate your efforts in doingthat.
And even within the context ofyour job, like you're still
upholding so many of theseoppressive systems.
What has been the struggles andthe rose and thorn of this
(41:43):
project?
Right, because it's not likeincredibly resource rich.
Right, financially right.
There are lots of differentcalls that you handle, that you
respond to that like you're notfully equipped to handle and
address those needs, but likethere's also been some beautiful
moments too.
What are some roses and thorns?
Cindy (42:01):
Yeah.
So I think some of the roseshave been being able to really
support folks who have beenimpacted by gun violence and
just build with folks and beable to offer something right.
I think a lot of folks seesometimes there's like a
(42:23):
hesitancy of like organizationsthat come in because it's like
what are you all offering andwhat do you want from me?
So just being able to buildtrust really organically and
work with folks in community.
So we also have a peacemakerteam of folks who do violence
intervention work.
(42:43):
That's our boots on the ground,canvassers, and we also have a
free clinic.
We also have therapy services.
So being able to really offer alot of different services for
community.
We have youth programming aswell.
We have a healing educator whois trained in somatics, who is
(43:09):
able to offer somatic practicesfor us as those on the frontline
staff and for our communityfolks as well.
So I forgot what the questionwas.
But being able to, oh,rosenthorn.
So the roses have been reallybeing able to see the impact
(43:31):
that we're able to make, to workalongside folks who have such
deep love for their community,who really are committed to
change, who really are committedto a different world and
creating a different world andbeing a part of creating a
(43:53):
different world.
My rose is also being able tohold circle for our staff.
We do like core release circlesand the very last circle that
we did was like a releasingcircle, which was really really
incredible, because a lot of thework that we do is trauma and
(44:16):
heavy and we're discussingviolence.
We're meeting with people whoare experiencing violence.
We ourselves might beexperiencing violence.
So just thinking about howheavy it is being able to hold
space for staff, to hold RJcircles for folks, has been big
(44:43):
rose.
I would say.
It gets thorny at times, attimes not having we work in a
collaboration, so we're workingwith four different
organizations, so eachorganization having their own
culture, and we're all trying tocome together and work out the
(45:05):
kinks.
That's been a little bit thornysometimes where our
expectations maybe aren't clearof each organization.
It took some time for us tofigure out, you know, role,
clarity and commitments howcommitted we are to the work
(45:29):
which we all are committed justin different capacities through
different organizational demands, and so some of the other
thorns have been burned out forsure, which we are.
We have a care committee in theworks trying to avoid the
(45:50):
burnout.
It's hard when we lose people.
When there's another shooting,it's hard, sometimes feeling
like you're climbing an uphillbattle, because we know that we
(46:14):
can provide services but if wedon't organize to create
structural changes, thecircumstances that allow for
harm to occur is not going tochange.
So while we're providing theservices, we also have to have
like deep organizing strategy,which I think our capacity is
(46:38):
like.
We can't do both.
We need like more folks to helpon the organizing side of it and
strengthen our organizingmuscle.
So yeah, those have been someof the thorns.
David (46:54):
Yeah, you know what is true about everybody who's doing
restorative justice work, orrestorative justice, adjacent
work or like really communitybased work, is that that balance
of giving your all versus youknow, knowing your boundaries
and your capacity is real,because you know we all have
(47:16):
different commitments in ourpersonal lives outside of you
know the thing that we're paidto do professionally, to like
uphold this work, to likeprovide these services to
communities.
And there are people in yourlife, right, you talked about
like all the intersections ofyour identity as a parent, as a
partner, as as a communitymember, as a family member,
(47:36):
right, like all of those placeslike deserve, like the wonderful
aspects of you, of you thatlike you give to your team, to
your community every day, andmaking sure that people are able
to balance.
That is so tough, right, and soyou know, when you share your
practices at the beginning oflike, what does it mean for me
to like center myself cominginto this space so I can provide
(47:57):
that to my community?
It's important for us to thinkabout how we can like be there
for the people who will like bethere with us, no matter what
job we have, right, in thecontext of community, and you
know that's a never-endingbalance that I think all people
who are doing this type of carework have to navigate for
(48:17):
yourselves right.
Having the capacity to providecare internally for your team is
beautiful and amazing.
I'm glad that you're being ableto not only provide that circle
space but you talked about likethe somatic practice is and the
healing space that, like anorganization is.
Dedicating resources for yourteam to stay afloat, if not like
(48:39):
thrive in the context of thework is so important.
I'm curious maybe thornwise,maybe community, maybe rosewise,
I don't know what.
How have you navigatedcommunity pushback to some of
your work right?
Because as much as people docall for these services, there
are people in community who arelike why would?
(49:01):
Why would we do this?
Cindy (49:02):
the police are what we need yeah, I haven't personally
had that experience where Ihaven't personally had the
pushback on why we exist or whywe need to you know, exist.
I think definitely there'spushback on whether we need
(49:25):
police or not.
I think even within our owncoalition.
I'll share that one of ourcoalition members does training
for police cadets, for newpolice cadets.
So our our abolitionist valuesdon't necessarily align in that
(49:45):
way.
They see and they view theirwork in a very different way,
but we're still able to cometogether to create a project
that is rooted in abolitionistvalues and some of the like pros
(50:08):
of that is dream defenders.
As an organization, we don'tnecessarily have to interact
with police.
If, like you know, police showup at one of our events, it
could be this other organizationyeah that can like take a lead
on that.
So, as we're doing this workwhere we can't like pretend that
(50:30):
police and prisons don't exist,they definitely exist and
they're very present in ourcommunities and the communities
that we're trying to serve.
So we've actually had, like youknow, police are like what is it
that y'all do?
Yes, like you all need to be apart of the community as well,
but they don't get the like wedon't want y'all to exist.
(50:53):
So I think we are yeah, wehaven't had much pushback from
community around us replacingpolice and prisons.
I think we want to introduceand we need to do more work
(51:15):
around introducing us as, like,the alternative right and this
is what's possible, and we needmore investment in projects like
this as of now, there's onlyone mobile crisis team and y'all
are limited by human capacityand drive time and response time
through.
David (51:35):
You know your, your processes.
What are your plans to continueto grow the services that y'all
offer?
Cindy (51:41):
yeah, I definitely think we have plans to grow the
services like right now, weoperate on six days a week.
Eventually, we want to scale upto 24-7 and at the same time, I
think it's a call to.
It's a call to likedecision-makers.
(52:06):
I think that we want more.
This doesn't have to be the onlything, right this isn't,
instead of police and prisons,like this is the only thing that
exists.
I think it's just a call forother organizations.
It's a call for otherdecision-makers, our politicians
(52:28):
, to really put money intocreating alternatives and
investing into real safety anddo you and defunding, like
police and prisons.
We need to be taking money awayfrom police and prisons, like
we've tried to do that for solong and then it doesn't work.
And so what?
(52:48):
I think, yes, we want to growand I want other organizations,
people, to build on the ideasthat they have of ways that we
can be safe in our communities.
David (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right.
It's not about growing the likedream defenders brand of like
crisis intervention oralternatives to 911 right, like
there are ways that each uniquecommunity can respond to.
You know your community's needs.
What are conversations thatyou've been involved with like
adjacent communities that havebeen like interested in looking
(53:23):
to grow that work?
And then I guess what comeswith as like how can people who
are interested get in touch?
Cindy (53:30):
yeah, I'm definitely connected in a lot of cool
abolitionist like spaces, likeinterrupting criminalization,
for example.
They have created like cohortsand just spaces for folks who
are working on buildingalternatives to meet across
(53:53):
different.
Yeah, they've brought groupswho are working on ways that of
creating safety and building outresponses to violence and harm
and mental health crises to cometogether and work together.
So that's an amazing.
Interrupting criminalizationhas created amazing connections
(54:13):
for us.
We also are connected tocommunity violence intervention
programs.
It's called like CVI.
It's a growing field andthere's different levels of like
interaction with police, right.
(54:34):
So some CVI programs are theywork alongside police.
Some CVI programs work are likehoused in police stations, so
like they go out with the police, but some CVI programs are
working without police andreally connecting into
community-based violenceprevention, intervention and
(54:56):
response programs.
So it's been really excitinglike connecting with folks all
across the country who are doingdifferent types of work and
we've been really privileged toget trained by some groups.
David (55:11):
Yeah, it's been exciting yeah, and if you know so people
can check out those resources.
But if they want to learn moreabout the work of dream
defenders, and specificallythrough the Healing and Justice
Center, how can they get intouch?
Cindy (55:26):
yeah, well, we have dream defenders on Instagram and we
have the Healing and JusticeCenter on Insta, and if you're
in South Florida and you areexperiencing a mental health
crisis, you can feel free tocall 1-866-MIA what are the
balance of South Florida?
(55:47):
it's mostly in Liberty City,yeah, and we also have our
website and dream defendersorg.
You can find a tab called theHealing and Justice Center, yeah
, and you can find out morethere.
(56:07):
You can feel free to email meif you want to directly get in
touch.
If you're trying to build out athing where you're at, you can
definitely directly get in touchwith me.
I'm Cindy at dreamdefendersorgand I'd be happy to talk more.
David (56:24):
Beautiful and you know to tie this back to this whole
series that we're doing, you'regonna be a part of the
Restorative Justice Conferencein October, so if you want to
learn more about that, theresources from the Florida
Restorative Justice Associationfor JAW are also down below.
Now it's come to the questionsthat everybody answers when they
(56:47):
come on this podcast.
You can choose eitherrestorative or transformative
justice, or maybe both, but, inyour own words, to find those
terms.
Cindy (56:57):
Yeah, so I love to do like a little graphic, but I'll
try to help you imagine it theway that I understand best.
Restorative justice is aboutrepairing.
Repairing harm, and we thinkabout, like our community, in
(57:19):
like this linear line there's aharm that happens in our
community that like disrupts ourcommunity, and then the
criminal legal system comes inand maybe take someone away from
our community, which thenfurther disrupts our community.
And so, when we think aboutrestorative justice, we think
(57:43):
about restoring, making surethat repair happens, making sure
that whoever is obligated tomeet the needs that were created
by this harm are fulfillingthat obligation.
And so, in order for healing tohappen and in order for repair
(58:04):
to happen, what the things thatmake repair possible can restore
our community so that we cancontinue on.
So that's how I think aboutrestorative justice.
And then, when I think oftransformative justice, I think
about yes, we need therestorative part, we need to be
able to make repair, we needneed to be accountable to the
(58:27):
harms that we cause, and we alsoneed to look at the system that
created the possibility of thisharm and we need to radically
shift the system that allowedfor this harm to happen in the
first place.
So we think about things likeorganizing, we think about
(58:50):
things like unlearningpatriarchy, we think about
things like reading and learningand developing new skills and
just new ways of being inrelation, in right relationship
with each other.
David (59:09):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thank you for that.
Like it can be so expansive,right.
Like, responding to, like,individual acts of conflict and
harm is an important part ofdoing this work.
But like, how are we buildingand strengthening both the
relationships and the conditionsunder like which we're in
(59:31):
relationship?
To be as equitable as possibleis the goal of all this work.
You've been doing this work fora while.
What has been an oh shit momentand what have you learned from
it?
And you can take this two ways.
It could be like oh shit, Imessed up and this is what I
learned.
Or it'd be like oh shit, I didthat and it was awesome.
Cindy (59:56):
Oh, that's a good question.
I think I have to think aboutthat one a little bit.
I'm thinking, I feel like I'vehad so many, but it's not like
(01:00:26):
coming to me.
David (01:00:28):
I've had so many like aha moments I would say, ah, okay.
Cindy (01:00:46):
So I think that I've been .
I was the transformativejustice coordinator for five
years and a lot of.
I think there was a expectationthat I would just like fix
things or I would come in andlike repair, and I think there
(01:01:10):
was an expectation of like, thatis like set up to fail, where
it's like one person and I thinkit's also unique to like
professionalize the work.
And so when you'reprofessionalizing the work,
you're like oh, we have a RJpractitioner or a TJ
practitioner for there to be.
(01:01:32):
It's like an isolating likething of like one person holding
all processes, or one personmanaging like the policy, or one
person just trying to likemanage all the harm and conflict
(01:01:52):
that's like happening incommunity and I think I learned
even for myself.
I had to like learn to notgatekeep Like I need to, I need
to hold this or like I need toto fix this.
So I've had a lot of learningof like no, we actually need us
(01:02:13):
in community to be in practicetogether around these values.
We need us in community to betraining our skills.
We need to be identifying likeholders of space.
We need to be identifyingsupport people.
We need to be identifying folksthat can encourage others to be
(01:02:33):
accountable, really like doingdeep work around identifying
like collectively, what are ourskills, what are our practices,
what are we good at?
How can we best show up foreach other?
So, really, more of like acommunity like approach.
And obviously liketransformative justice and
(01:02:56):
restorative justice is likebeing committed to community, is
like a huge part of it.
But I think early on I got kindof page and hold a little bit
into like being the one personthat can like fix all things and
that was a big learning lessonaround like being a spaceholder
(01:03:20):
versus like a fixer, or likejust allowing different and
calling the right people when Ineed to call the right people in
.
David (01:03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think, like the idea of the
professionalization ofrestorative justice work is a
longer conversation than we havetime for right now.
But the idea of, like this,just living with one person is
often why this work fails.
I'm thinking specifically inschools, but within
organizations as well.
(01:03:52):
Because, like, if one person isjust like the holder of one,
all the knowledge of all thesystems, of all the policies,
like if they leave or ifsomething ever happens to them,
like organizationally, likewho's going to pick up the slack
?
Right, if you don't havesomeone, you're kind of screwed.
But also, right, you and yourall of your knowledge, wisdom
and experience, like there arethings that you don't know?
(01:04:15):
Right, and there were thingsthat, like, would be beneficial
for other people's perspectiveto be brought in.
Right, you can't be the personwho holds all these processes,
both, just as like humancapacity, but like you're not
the right person to be in all ofthose spaces, to be
facilitating all these processes, right, and so how can we, yes,
(01:04:36):
both train and give peopleskills, but you know, if orgs or
schools are working withAmplify IJ, like?
The question is always like,yes, I have these frameworks and
these practices that you canapply.
But, like, how are you actuallygoing to do it?
Who's going to do it?
Who has the time and capacitywithin the construct of their
job duties?
Right, because now we'retalking about a labor issue,
(01:04:57):
right?
Speaking to you, like yourconversation earlier about, like
, burnout from the nonprofitindustrial complex, how are we
making sure that people have thecapacity to do these things
within the context of their day?
It's a time thing and, you know,for organizations that are
doing community driven work,where there are very urgent
needs that need to be met,sometimes the work might be the
(01:05:20):
thing that takes priority,justifiably.
But if that continues to happenrepeatedly, over and over and
not giving people space toaddress these issues that are
happening internally, buildtheir own capacity to make space
for these processes and thedevelopment, like you're not
going to go very far.
You know the proverb if youwant to go fast, go alone, if
(01:05:42):
you want to go far, go together.
Is cliche, maybe at this point,but so so, so true.
Thanks for that reflection.
I didn't know that I was goingto release that for me.
Another question that everybodyanswers and you know, take your
time with this one too.
You get to sit in circle withfour people, living or dead?
(01:06:05):
Who are they and what is theone question you ask the circle?
Cindy (01:06:10):
Oh, my gosh, rihanna, for sure, okay.
David (01:06:13):
One.
Cindy (01:06:16):
Um four people my grandma , Two.
I'm going to say Rachel, who'sour director of the healing and
justice center, because I loveher so much and I feel like
we're so spiritually connected.
Um, and maybe Ruth, the personwho trained me.
David (01:06:37):
Yeah.
Cindy (01:06:40):
We'd sit together.
She always brings like a lot ofknowledge.
Okay, and the question what is?
David (01:06:46):
the question you would ask the circle.
Cindy (01:06:48):
I would ask maybe there's like a lesson there for me.
I would ask, like what did you?
What do you wish you knewsooner?
What's something you wish youknew sooner?
David (01:07:08):
Sneaky, sneaky.
Now I turn that question backto you.
What's something you wish youknew sooner?
Cindy (01:07:15):
I wish I knew, like the co, all the cool people that I
know now.
David (01:07:26):
I feel like people.
Cindy (01:07:28):
I was diagnosed with PTSD and I struggled so much with
that diagnosis I really reallystruggled a lot and now I'm
really grateful of um not havingthat diagnosis anymore and also
feeling really strong in likemy ability to navigate mental
(01:07:52):
health any mental healthchallenges.
And I feel like now I know alot of cool people, like the
somatic practitioner, a male whoworks at our healing and
justice center, andacupuncturist that like has done
work on a few dream defenders,Just different people that have
(01:08:15):
offered like so many modalitiesof healing that I really like
wish I knew all these coolpeople that I, you know, had
access to that earlier on in mylife when I was struggling so
hard and you know, but I'm okaynow and I know all these cool
(01:08:37):
people now, so it's okay.
David (01:08:39):
Yeah, yeah, I love that answer.
Not like what, but who and withwho comes like all this extra,
extra knowledge.
It's brilliant.
Um, you know we've sharedbefore the ways that you can get
in touch with dream defendersand the healing and justice
center, both on the website andInstagram.
Those will be linked below.
Are there any other ways thatpeople can support you and your
(01:09:01):
work in the ways that you wantto be supported?
Cindy (01:09:04):
Um, no, just email.
Just email me if you want totalk more about any of these
things that we talked about.
If you, I'm always interestedin talking with folks around RJ
and TJ and connecting and justbuilding these important
connections so that we feel lessisolated in the work.
(01:09:24):
And yeah, I just love makingconnections.
So that's all.
David (01:09:31):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you so much, cindy,for your time, your stories,
your wisdom, uh, here on thisrestorative justice life.
For those of you listening,we'll be back next week
highlighting um another personliving this restorative justice
life, but until then, take care.
Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life.
I'm your host, david Ryan,barcaga, castro, harris All five
names for all the ancestors andtoday I'm here with Cindy
Mahendar to dive deep into theway that restorative justice and
transformative justice haveplayed a role in her personal
and professional life.
This is a part of ourcontinuing series highlighting
(00:25):
restorative justice in the South, shouting out many of the
people who are doing this workin Florida, south Florida,
specifically, both as a way tohighlight the work that is going
on, but also as our previousguests have shared.
You know, we've got thisrestorative justice conference
coming up RJ the remix exploring, living and expanding
(00:46):
restorative practices for thedown south community, october 20
through 22 of this year.
All the information you need toneed to know about that is at
floridoverstoratofjusticecom.
For those of you who havealready heard about that, signed
up for this and are ready todive into our conversation with
Cindy, here we go.
So, cindy, welcome to thisrestorative justice life.
(01:07):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:10):
Awesome.
Thank you, I'm really excitedto be here.
I am Cindy.
I use she and they pronouns Iam the.
I'm currently the training andoperations manager for the
healing and justice center, butfor the past five years I've
been the transformative justicecoordinator at dream defenders.
David (01:32):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:35):
I am a mom of Angela and stepmom of Aiden.
David (01:42):
Who are you?
Cindy (01:46):
I am a queer Caribbean small island, small coming from
a small village with a bigfamily, immigrant survivor of
many things.
David (02:06):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:09):
I am a daughter and sibling.
David (02:19):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:21):
I am a spaceholder for my community.
David (02:28):
Who are you?
Cindy (02:31):
I am somebody on a never ending healing journey.
David (02:37):
And finally for now, who are you?
Cindy (02:41):
I am Cindy and I use she.
David (02:43):
they pronouns so grateful to have you here, so grateful
to make this connection.
We're going to get to theintersections of so many of
those things over the course ofthis next little bit, but it's
always good to start ourconversations with checking in,
so, to the fullest extent thatyou want to answer the question
right now, how are you?
Cindy (03:03):
I am doing okay.
I had a question the other dayabout rows and thorn.
I don't know.
It's a practice that we do alot in community spaces.
Just what's your rose?
Something sweet.
What's your thorn?
Something like ouch.
My rose is that healing is notlinear and my thorn is also.
(03:24):
Healing is not linear.
So, dealing with a lot of griefthis year, but also finding
moments of joy, pleasure,enjoyment in life and just being
really grounded in my faith andreally grounded in who I am.
David (03:42):
Yeah, I think it's really important to have those things
that help ground you.
If you said for your faith andI'll ask in a second, like how
do you return back to who youare?
But, reflecting over the courseof the last almost three years
that we've been doing thispodcast, the how are you of it
all is always in flux.
Right In late 2020, there was alot of heaviness in those
(04:06):
answers, because that's what waspresent for a lot of folks and
even within that heaviness,there are still moments of light
, love and joy.
You talked about being groundedin your faith and being
grounded in yourself.
I'm curious what are some ofthose practices that are helpful
for you to stay that way?
Cindy (04:24):
Yeah, so I recently transitioned into being the
Training and Operations Managerfor the Healing and Justice
Center and a part of that roleis coming into the office every
day and doing our operations.
And I found that a practice isreally like only listening to
meditations and music.
(04:47):
That is like the lo-fi hip hopbeats and just really music.
That's really serene, calmingand just having a good practice
in the morning of a light, myincense, or a lighter candle or
something like that.
And then we have this reallyawesome card deck that was
(05:08):
created it's an affirmation carddeck called the Sacred Ori card
deck and it was created by theperson who trained me in
restorative justice and it's anaffirmation deck on catching
communities, doing the work ofcatching communities, of holding
our communities, and so I pulla card every morning when I come
(05:33):
in to just kind of set the tonefor my day.
And that's a practice that I'vereally been leaning into, not
only for myself but for theoffice space and anyone who
comes in and utilizes our officespace.
David (05:48):
I'll put a link in the description for those who are
interested in that deck.
But what has that practice ofthe intentionality of pulling
cards, lighting candles,lighting incense having that
vibe?
What has that done for you andyour community?
Cindy (06:02):
Yeah, I think for me it's been.
It's grounded me and helped mejust really take a moment to
myself to get in touch with whoI am and get a good routine and
(06:24):
just feel like I'm coming inwith intention for the day and
that I'm just manifesting aclear head, a clear mental space
, a clear spiritual space, aclear physical space.
I think earlier this year wasreally rough for so many reasons
(06:46):
, Like personally, within DreamDefenders, we lost a comrade of
ours.
That was really heavy.
And so just going back to thepractice of like being present,
for in that moment that I'mlighting an incense, I'm present
(07:07):
in that moment pulling my cardevery day.
It's an affirmation that I sayevery day that allows me to like
sustain through challengingtimes and over the course of
time, I feel like when I'm nolonger in a challenging space,
I'm coming out of it feelingreally grounded.
David (07:30):
I think what's so important to remember again is
that people who listen to thispodcast will be familiar with me
saying this.
When we think about these ideasof presence and tensionality,
it's a lot easier for us to liverestored in values.
People just need to be remindedso much more than we need to be
(07:53):
taught.
If people sit down and start tothink about what is the thing
that we'll do that will serveour relationships here, that
will help us build, repair,strengthen our relationships,
rid of equity and trust.
The answers are often prettyclear, but engaging in practices
that will help remind us ofwanting to be that way, or
remind us of the sacredness ofourselves, the sacredness of our
(08:15):
human relationships, goes along way into, yes, being able
to repair harm when it happens,but probably preventing things
from popping off day to day,moment to moment.
I know that's not alwayspossible for some folks, but
thank you so much for sharingthat practice and the impact
that it's been having on yourcommunity.
I've been thinking a lot abouthow restorative justice is a
(08:40):
formal set of words, but thepractices around it are probably
things that you've been engagedin before you even knew the
term.
So, in your own words, how didyour journey with this work.
Get started for you.
Cindy (08:52):
Yeah, so I think I want to talk about my formal, my kind
of formal introduction torestorative justice.
I went to York University inToronto and I was in a program
called Human Rights and EquityStudies.
(09:13):
I was studying, I had a courseon social movements and we had
to present at the end of ourcourse, you know, a project
around a social movement, teachthe rest of the class about it.
And I was, like you know,feeling I was kind of in leftish
(09:34):
spaces, being radicalized oncampus through different social
groups and things like that andthrough what I was studying and
learning in class.
So I was like in this phasewhere I want to pick the most
radical thing that I can thinkof and present on it, and I
(09:54):
ended up picking the prisonabolition movement, which I knew
nothing about, and I was justlike this is a thing that came
up on like a list or some sort,and I presented on it and I
don't think I did a very goodjob.
I got a lot of challenge, I gota lot of pushback from my
(10:15):
classmates, but one thing thathappened was I was transformed.
I was now like this feels likeit makes sense to me and this is
something that I want to getmore into.
I want to learn more about.
I started like developing ahunger.
Then I learned more aboutrestorative justice through the
(10:36):
prison abolition movement as away of if we don't have police
in prisons, we need to be ableto repair relationships and
restore our communities.
So I went on this path oflearning about restorative
justice through that lens ofprison abolition and then
(10:59):
studying more about it, and thenI ended up applying to my
masters in South Florida inconflict resolution and I had
some expectation of, hmm, maybethis is going to be a lot like
restorative justice.
It was nothing.
It was not about how therestorative justice class.
(11:20):
It was nothing aboutrestorative justice.
It was all about a very Westernconflict resolution focused
ways of dealing with conflictfrom all different types of
levels of businesses or warzones, things like that.
(11:42):
But restorative justice nevercame up.
So I felt a little let down bythat, although I developed some
really excellent skills aroundmediation and facilitation and
met a lot of cool people.
But it wasn't until I joinedDream Defenders after my
(12:03):
master's program that I reallywas introduced to restorative
justice and actually got trained.
So that was kind of like my arc.
But thinking about learningrestorative justice really
taught me that the harms that Iexperienced as a child, or the
(12:28):
harms that happened in mychildhood, is what I really
needed.
That and I wanted.
That gave me really a passionof wanting to do more and hold
space for others in a way that Ididn't have space held for me.
(12:48):
And throughout my life I feellike there's so many, so many
instances throughout my lifewhere I can think about.
You know, if I had thisoffering available to me or that
was accessible to me, ofrepairing relationship,
repairing harm, I think it itwould have afforded me a certain
(13:09):
level of healing from thoseharms that I experienced.
I don't feel like I had accessto or had answers to when you
thought about choosing prisonabolition as the most radical
thing.
David (13:25):
It sounds like you didn't have like these ideas in mind.
I'm curious what thattransformation like.
How would you articulate thattransformation that you
underwent by doing that work, byengaging with the critiques?
Cindy (13:41):
yeah.
So I mean, the first thing Idid was read our prisons
obsolete by Angela Davis and atthe time I think I was studying
a lot of like I was.
I was also reading like fromSwannone, I was also reading
more about and learning moreabout the Black Panther movement
in a context that I feel like Ihad it before.
(14:06):
And growing up in Trinidad andthen, you know, living in
Florida for part of my life aswell, I don't think I was
exposed to those types ofhistories, those types of
theories, and I think the morethat I studied, the more I
resonated with my life and myexperiences really resonated and
(14:33):
I found a place of my path andI don't know how to articulate
it other than you know.
I really found my path andcontinued to carve my way
through yeah, even in thosemoments of challenge from your
(14:54):
classmates.
David (14:54):
But, like you know, I imagine some of the critiques
were like but we need prisonsand we need police to keep us
safe, right, what was it aboutthe things that you experienced
as a child and like, coming tothis new knowledge that like
helped you navigate those atthat time?
Right, I'm sure you couldarticulate it better now than
(15:16):
you did then.
What was it in that moment thatlike helped you navigate all
those things?
Cindy (15:20):
I think at the time I was just like I was more so
understanding or trying toexplain that prison shouldn't
and police shouldn't be thefoundation of how we deal with
harm and conflict.
And I also think at the time,you know, I maybe I was less
(15:43):
drawn on my experience, but moreso on like the injustice felt
really like the injustice andthe mass, the harms of mass
incarceration felt reallyresonating in terms of like I
never saw, I know I didn't growup seeing or interacting with
(16:07):
police or I didn't even knowwhere the jail was or prison
prisons were, but it doesn'tmean that it didn't exist or
harms didn't exist.
We figured out ways of likedealing with harm in my
community, yeah, and we figuredout how to do things.
(16:28):
So it made a lot of sense to mewhen Angela Davis was saying
you know, prisons don'tdisappear social problems, they
disappear people, and so that Ithink really resonated with me
and I was trying to articulateit at the time, but maybe not in
the best way, but just thinkingof like we don't need mass
(16:51):
incarceration, we need to findlike incarceration isn't the
answer to all of our problems insociety.
David (16:59):
So I think that was the way I was navigating it back
then and I still believe thatobviously I've built a lot of my
knowledge since then yeah, whenyou said that we had other ways
of navigating conflict and harmin your community, what did
that look like?
Cindy (17:16):
yeah, so I think about it a lot.
I think about stories of I grewup in a small village in
Trinidad.
My grandmother was.
I hear stories that my myparents or my aunts would tell
me of like my grandma picking upas many kids as of her kids as
(17:39):
possible to like escape from mygrandfather's use of alcohol and
alcohol abuse that was causingconflict and harm to my
grandmother.
And so I just think about youknow, where did she go to find
safety right in that time?
She's like I'm picking up asmany of my kids as possible and
(18:01):
I'm going to find safety in myneighbors or my family members,
but just knowing that safetyhappened right, or there's some
sort of motivation to findsafety and to be safe.
And I also think about you know, kind of like the repair part.
(18:26):
My mom recently told me that mygrandma would make my grandpa
pay her to like do his laundryand cook for him and the
domestic work that she was doing.
And I was like, wow, my grandmawas like such a feminist in the
fact that you know I'm not hereto tolerate your abuse or your
(18:51):
alcoholism or whatever it isthat was harm, the harms that
you're creating for me.
I'm not here to tolerate it.
Like we, we have to figure outa way to live together, and that
way that we live together is welive in separate rooms in the
house and you're gonna pay me,and so just those like really
creative things that my ownfamily did.
(19:13):
I grew up not necessarilyknowing the full picture, but I
knew that my grandparents livedin separate rooms.
But, yeah, some of those waysthat we are innovative, I think
comes from like our generations,of our families, like figuring
out how, how are we gonnanavigate this, because harm is
(19:39):
just so pervasive and we want tofigure it out right, when we're
speaking specifically aboutdomestic violence, right and
abuse.
David (19:50):
Police are terrible at addressing those harms.
Right, and you know, I don'tknow what the circumstances on
Trinidad would have been foryour grandma reporting that to
the police.
You know however many years ago, however many decades ago that
was, but the outcomes probablyhave looked like because of
(20:10):
patriarchy, right, it would havelooked like go home to your
husband or something like that.
Right, and figuring out otherways to get safety you talked
about, like through neighbors,through setting boundaries for
yourself, like is reallyimportant.
That looks different in everycontext.
Right, and one of the thingsthat I like to talk about a lot
(20:33):
when we're talking aboutrestorative justice is like
these values of interconnectionand the ways that we are forced
to our communities when ourcommunities, before late-stage
global capitalism and as aresult of imperialism and
colonization and all thesethings, have caused us to
outsource conflict resolution.
(20:54):
Right, that might be MiriamKaba that I'm paraphrasing at
this moment.
Right, outsource our conflictresolution to the state, to
police, to the justice, to thecriminal legal system and a lot
of community care, to socialservice agencies with often can
be beneficial and meet needs,but sometimes they're also
(21:14):
operating at the will of thestate or operating at the will
of funders, who may or may nothave resources, and so what are
the ways that we can build incommunity to make sure that
we're meeting those needs?
I know that's part of the workthat dream defenders is doing.
Tell us how you got to dreamdefenders and tell us about the
work that you're continuing tokeep alive now yeah.
Cindy (21:37):
So I got to dream defenders after working at a
nonprofit.
That was like I was beingreally overworked.
I wasn't like I would just gohome.
I mean, I would just go to work.
I would come home, I would justlay in my bed feeling like
debilitated just by thenon-profit, nonprofit industrial
(21:57):
complex.
Like you know, you feel likeyou're working but it's never
enough and you can never likeyou can never meet the needs of
everyone.
So it it's.
It was really debilitating.
At some point I was just like,fuck it, I'm gonna quit.
I was also not beingcompensated for like with
full-time benefits, even thoughthey had me working full-time
(22:19):
hours.
So that was the whole thing.
So I was like fuck it, I leftand I just quit, with no plan.
I was just like I know, I can,like I can do tutoring because I
was doing it a little bit onthe side for just some extra
cash.
So I was like I could just pickup more clients until I figure
(22:40):
it out.
And then I saw dream defendershad a fellowship and I was like,
yes, I'm gonna apply.
And the fellowship was around.
It was an organizer positiongetting amendment for past,
which is the right restorationamendment that we had back in
(23:02):
2018, voting rights for folkswho are formerly incarcerated,
getting their rights back tovote, was a part of the campaign
that we were working on at thetime and I was brought on during
that time to work on thatcampaign and also talk to
community members about thefreedom papers, which the
(23:23):
freedom papers is our vision forour North Star, of how we view
the world, and it consists ofseven freedoms, and we talked to
people about what it would belike to have live in a world
without police at prisons, wherewe're free from war and
destruction or we're free frompoverty we have.
(23:46):
We live in a democraticsocieties, things like that.
So, organizing, getting to knowfolks in the community around
me, talking to people aboutgetting rights restored for
formerly incarcerated folks thatwas the work I was doing in
2018 and then from there I wasreally I met with a lot of it.
(24:14):
I met a lot of incredible folks,went to training that Miriam
Kaba came down to Miami to do atraining with us.
I also met Adajare, who is a TJpractitioner and therapist in
(24:37):
South Florida, and I met Ruth,who we spoke about a little bit
earlier.
She had created the cards,trained me in circle keeping and
I also met Stas and Lee fromSpring Up who are incredible,
incredible folks and that waskind of like my network of folks
(25:01):
that really mentored me,trained me up.
I did a fellowship with SpringUp around consent.
It was a consent fellowship andthrough there that was kind of
like my development path intotransitioning into the
transformative justicecoordinator over at Dream
(25:24):
Defenders.
David (25:25):
Yeah, you know you covered a lot there, and I'm
sure there are plenty of lessonsto pull out from each of those
stops.
What I want to start with isthinking about the nature of
community organizing around aballot initiative, but also, at
the same time, sharing yourvision for the world.
As much as you're eliciting,hey, we need you to go vote for
(25:48):
this thing, because people inour community need their rights.
It goes beyond that, and so I'mcurious what your experience
was like.
Sharing that freedom papers,setting a vision at the same
time.
Hey, go vote.
Hey, go vote With people inFlorida, right South Florida.
We're talking about anenvironment where these ideas
(26:11):
aren't in public consciousnessall that often.
What was your experience?
Having those kind ofconversations?
Cindy (26:18):
Yeah, I think South Florida is so unique because we
have huge immigrant populations,folks from all over the world,
the Caribbean in particular, andwe have pockets of really deep
rooted racist whiteness.
So South Florida is so unique.
(26:40):
A really great part of thattime was a lot of organizations
were really excited about thisballot initiative and it was a
really energizing time inorganizing in South Florida.
So I think today the organizinglandscape is very different in
(27:05):
Florida.
At the time we were actuallyalso excited about getting
Andrew Gillum into office aswell.
So I think it was a time whereI remember having like a freedom
brunch at my house and justinviting folks over and we
talked about the freedom papers.
We folks signed up, signedpledges to pledge that they're
(27:30):
voting yes on this amendment,and we were also just in
community together sharing food,breaking bread.
So for me, when I look back, itwas like an energizing, a
really energizing time.
That is so different, I thinknow in the political landscape
that is so different and so muchharder now.
David (27:53):
Yeah.
Cindy (27:54):
And it maybe was back then and there were so many
different organizations thatwere already on board by the
time I came in that we werereally.
There was so much foundationthat was laid before I even came
in.
I mean years and years of folksorganizing around getting this
(28:14):
amendment, even on the ballot,to be passed.
I feel like I came in at thetail end, so it was a lot of
folks doing organizing for along time around this issue, and
so it was helpful to be incommunity with folks who have
been doing it longer to kind ofshow me the ropes, and it wasn't
(28:35):
a conversation, it was folkswho are already having that
conversation.
David (28:39):
So the people that I interacted with whether it's on
college campuses or communityevents, folks who are more
receptive and more familiaralready- yeah, I think it's
important, like electoralpolitics have their place and
have their importance, like wecan't deny the benefits and the
harm that can come from all thatand the real world impacts.
(29:01):
I should say just overall, andwhen you're telling people like
hey, vote for this because it'sgiving people the right back,
that's an easy action thatpeople can take.
But when you're thinking aboutsetting this vision for a more
liberated, democratic societywhere people and communities
have what they need, what didthat look like and what has that
(29:22):
looked like?
Cindy (29:24):
Yeah, well, we started doing freedom sessions so we
would ask folks to come in andkind of it's in a way of like
storytelling.
So we would come together andwe would ask folks about their
own experiences related topolice, in prisons, and then we
(29:44):
would talk about relate thoseexperiences to the larger vision
of our freedom papers.
And so it's endlessstorytelling, asking the right
questions, where we're bringingpeople into the work through
these conversations that we'rehaving, whether it's a brunch or
(30:04):
we've called them freedomsessions, which are kind of like
house meetings, and so that'ssome of the ways that people are
like yes, I do want to vote onthis thing because I believe for
X, y, z, whatever reason thatthey give, and do you want to
(30:27):
come to talk more about thevision that we have for the
state of Florida, because thisisn't the end, like we have a
bigger vision here that we wantto work towards.
So people were excited to meetother folks that were thinking
(30:48):
about this larger vision andthinking about these larger
ideas.
David (30:53):
Yeah, when I think about doing organizing right,
community work through arestorative lens, it's an
invitation, right, it's notsaying like this is the way that
things are going to be, becauseI say so and I have all this
experience as a restorativejustice practitioner right, Both
in a community setting, in anorganization, in a school,
(31:14):
whatever it is.
But this opportunity to allowpeople to share their stories,
highlight their needs andhighlight the ways that
restorative or transformativejustice can be a better way
forward is so important, right,Folks can check out the Dream
Defenders website where we havethese freedom papers freedom to
be, freedom from war, violence,environmental destruction,
(31:40):
freedom of movement, freeflourishing, democracy, freedom
of mind, freedom from poverty,freedom from police and prisons.
Who disagrees with this?
Right, there are people, I'msure.
But when you invite people totell their stories and when you
tell people your stories, it'sso much more likely that they'll
(32:02):
at least start to build arelationship and engage in
conversation with you, ratherthan say like these are the
things that you need to believe.
This is what we're workingtowards.
Get on board.
Right, it's slower initially,right, you know the work of
those freedom brunches andsharing the vision of the
freedom papers is important toshaping some of the work that
(32:22):
you all have been doing.
I know you're, you know,running in many ways the healing
and justice center.
How did that come about?
Cindy (32:32):
Yeah, so in 2015, I wasn't here at the time, but in
2015, dream Defenders did a deepcommunity listening project
around the state, asking folkslike what keeps our community
safe?
And so, or what is it thatpeople are noticing in their
(32:55):
communities?
What are the biggest issues?
Just questions around what dowe need in our community to
really be safe?
And so most people and we weregoing around telling people we
need to abolish prisons andpolice as well, and people were
like, yeah, police and prisonsare bad, but what do we have
(33:16):
instead?
Like what are our other options?
So the Healing and JusticeCenter really came about with as
a response of years after ofbuilding out well this is what
we wanna offer to community.
If we're going around sayingthat we're abolishing police and
(33:40):
prisons and our vision is toget rid of police and prisons.
We have to be able to offersomething and it's not the
answer.
But it's a part of imagining.
It's a part of like showing up,like we can create a thing that
can serve our community's needsand people, in many different
(34:04):
ways, can create a thing toserve community needs.
And we also need organizing too.
But it's really an example ofus of building really slowly and
really intentionally buildingout alternative programs that
(34:27):
people can access, that is notconnected to the police and that
is not connected to prisons,with the intention of
decarceration, with theintention of healing, and that
is community-based, a programthat's community-based.
David (34:48):
Yeah, to your point right .
We don't live in a societywhere the police will go away
tomorrow.
Cindy (34:56):
Right.
David (34:56):
Right, and if they did, what would be in place?
People would probably mostlikely create things that
replicated or were similar topolice right, because we haven't
been socialized to think aboutwhat those alternative
structures look like.
People need this vision.
For those who are listening, gowith me as I say this to
(35:17):
police's credit right, the jobof policing now is so
multifaceted Police are beingasked to respond to all
different kinds of things, right, almost none of what police do
is about preventing or stoppingcrimes, so let's put that out
there.
But when people are asking forwhat is your one solution to
(35:41):
abolishing the police?
Right, there is no one solution, because the police aren't
being asked to do so many thingsin the context of our society
and so giving abolitionists thespace to dream.
As Miriam Kup says, it's gonnatake a million little
experiments, right, to figureout what works in your community
(36:01):
.
Probably around principles oftransformative justice.
Probably around principles ofrestorative justice, right,
identifying impact, harm andmeeting the needs, transforming
the conditions under which harmis happening.
Those are probably important,but the specific manifestation
of that is gonna look differentin every situation.
That's beautiful in theory.
What are the practical thingsthat y'all have put in place?
(36:22):
What are the programs andcommunities that you're building
to allow people to imagine aworld without police.
Cindy (36:30):
Yeah, so firstly, we have a mobile crisis unit that goes
out to respond to folks who arehaving mental health emergencies
and they don't wanna call thepolice or can't call the police
or call 911.
In Florida we have what'scalled the Baker Act system, so
(36:50):
we're trying to respond to folksto avoid folks from having to
be forced to be hospitalized orhaving to be forced to be
incarcerated.
So our mobile crisis unit isone thing that we offer.
It's 1-866-SAFE-MIA.
It can call a number and wehave a medic, crisis
(37:15):
interventionist on the team, andthen they also like rotate
schedules, so a medic and acrisis interventionist will come
out to support you, who aredeeply trained in being able to
respond to de-escalation, toidentify mental health disorders
(37:36):
and also health concerns thatcould present as mental health
disorders.
So, yeah, and they'll come outand support a crisis that you're
in and if you meet criteria, wecould also refer you to any
other services that we offer orany other services that we know
(37:56):
are available.
David (37:57):
Right, and the reason people would call this instead
of calling police.
Who like maybe you maybe notshow up with somebody who is
trauma informed, maybe or maybenot showing up with, like
somebody who can provide socialservices?
Right, like why would somebodydo this?
Obviously to, like, avoidconfrontation with police.
But like, what are the otherreasons?
(38:19):
Like people are wanting to useservices like this.
Cindy (38:23):
Yeah, I mean I had a conversation recently with a mom
who was struggling with theirteenager and didn't know, just
really was having a hard timenavigating the healthcare system
, knew that their child had somesort of mental health disorder
(38:43):
but was like misdiagnosed, butfound themselves in episodes of
crisis of like I don't know whatto do and the symptoms or the
way that their child was showingup was like they were afraid
that they were gonna harmthemselves and so would call us.
(39:04):
So that's just like an exampleof someone that is like I'm in
crisis and I don't know what todo.
I really don't know what to do.
David (39:14):
Yeah, you know some people might think like well,
why don't you all just partnerwith your local police
department and like go along forthe ride to be supportive there
?
What's your response there?
Cindy (39:27):
No, we don't wanna be a partner with the police.
We wanna build trust incommunity and we know that
police and the community that wework in we aim to serve there
is not trust and we know thatpolice is not the answer.
Right, we wanna work towards.
(39:48):
A part of the values of theHealing and Justice Center is
working towards a world whereprisons and police don't exist
anymore.
So it'll be counterproductivefor us to work alongside police
if we're trying to eradicatepolice.
Right, we want the money tocome out of the police budgets.
We want money to come out ofprison budgets and we want it to
(40:11):
go to community-basedorganizations that are really in
tune and knowledgeable and likewe're able to build trust in a
way that we're not sendingpeople, we're not ending up in a
position where we're allowingpeople to get sent to prison or
(40:33):
allowing people to get harmed bypolice.
David (40:38):
I imagine this is some of the energy that you're carrying
right, Even though it mightreduce harm in any given
instances, to align yourcommunity, to align your
services, to align what you doto an institution rooted in
(40:59):
catching slaves, right Routed inprotecting property over people
, rooted in the subjugation andtorture of black people, of
people of the global majority ingeneral.
Right Is counterproductiveright and shout out to those of
you who are working within thosesystems, whether police
(41:19):
specifically, or in some wayshape or form, like agents of
the criminal legal system as itexists, Like I understand the
need for the harm reductive workthat you're doing and
appreciate your efforts in doingthat.
And even within the context ofyour job, like you're still
upholding so many of theseoppressive systems.
What has been the struggles andthe rose and thorn of this
(41:43):
project?
Right, because it's not likeincredibly resource rich.
Right, financially right.
There are lots of differentcalls that you handle, that you
respond to that like you're notfully equipped to handle and
address those needs, but likethere's also been some beautiful
moments too.
What are some roses and thorns?
Cindy (42:01):
Yeah.
So I think some of the roseshave been being able to really
support folks who have beenimpacted by gun violence and
just build with folks and beable to offer something right.
I think a lot of folks seesometimes there's like a
(42:23):
hesitancy of like organizationsthat come in because it's like
what are you all offering andwhat do you want from me?
So just being able to buildtrust really organically and
work with folks in community.
So we also have a peacemakerteam of folks who do violence
intervention work.
(42:43):
That's our boots on the ground,canvassers, and we also have a
free clinic.
We also have therapy services.
So being able to really offer alot of different services for
community.
We have youth programming aswell.
We have a healing educator whois trained in somatics, who is
(43:09):
able to offer somatic practicesfor us as those on the frontline
staff and for our communityfolks as well.
So I forgot what the questionwas.
But being able to, oh,rosenthorn.
So the roses have been reallybeing able to see the impact
(43:31):
that we're able to make, to workalongside folks who have such
deep love for their community,who really are committed to
change, who really are committedto a different world and
creating a different world andbeing a part of creating a
(43:53):
different world.
My rose is also being able tohold circle for our staff.
We do like core release circlesand the very last circle that
we did was like a releasingcircle, which was really really
incredible, because a lot of thework that we do is trauma and
(44:16):
heavy and we're discussingviolence.
We're meeting with people whoare experiencing violence.
We ourselves might beexperiencing violence.
So just thinking about howheavy it is being able to hold
space for staff, to hold RJcircles for folks, has been big
(44:43):
rose.
I would say.
It gets thorny at times, attimes not having we work in a
collaboration, so we're workingwith four different
organizations, so eachorganization having their own
culture, and we're all trying tocome together and work out the
(45:05):
kinks.
That's been a little bit thornysometimes where our
expectations maybe aren't clearof each organization.
It took some time for us tofigure out, you know, role,
clarity and commitments howcommitted we are to the work
(45:29):
which we all are committed justin different capacities through
different organizational demands, and so some of the other
thorns have been burned out forsure, which we are.
We have a care committee in theworks trying to avoid the
(45:50):
burnout.
It's hard when we lose people.
When there's another shooting,it's hard, sometimes feeling
like you're climbing an uphillbattle, because we know that we
(46:14):
can provide services but if wedon't organize to create
structural changes, thecircumstances that allow for
harm to occur is not going tochange.
So while we're providing theservices, we also have to have
like deep organizing strategy,which I think our capacity is
(46:38):
like.
We can't do both.
We need like more folks to helpon the organizing side of it and
strengthen our organizingmuscle.
So yeah, those have been someof the thorns.
David (46:54):
Yeah, you know what is true about everybody who's doing
restorative justice work, orrestorative justice, adjacent
work or like really communitybased work, is that that balance
of giving your all versus youknow, knowing your boundaries
and your capacity is real,because you know we all have
(47:16):
different commitments in ourpersonal lives outside of you
know the thing that we're paidto do professionally, to like
uphold this work, to likeprovide these services to
communities.
And there are people in yourlife, right, you talked about
like all the intersections ofyour identity as a parent, as a
partner, as as a communitymember, as a family member,
(47:36):
right, like all of those placeslike deserve, like the wonderful
aspects of you, of you thatlike you give to your team, to
your community every day, andmaking sure that people are able
to balance.
That is so tough, right, and soyou know, when you share your
practices at the beginning oflike, what does it mean for me
to like center myself cominginto this space so I can provide
(47:57):
that to my community?
It's important for us to thinkabout how we can like be there
for the people who will like bethere with us, no matter what
job we have, right, in thecontext of community, and you
know that's a never-endingbalance that I think all people
who are doing this type of carework have to navigate for
(48:17):
yourselves right.
Having the capacity to providecare internally for your team is
beautiful and amazing.
I'm glad that you're being ableto not only provide that circle
space but you talked about likethe somatic practice is and the
healing space that, like anorganization is.
Dedicating resources for yourteam to stay afloat, if not like
(48:39):
thrive in the context of thework is so important.
I'm curious maybe thornwise,maybe community, maybe rosewise,
I don't know what.
How have you navigatedcommunity pushback to some of
your work right?
Because as much as people docall for these services, there
are people in community who arelike why would?
(49:01):
Why would we do this?
Cindy (49:02):
the police are what we need yeah, I haven't personally
had that experience where Ihaven't personally had the
pushback on why we exist or whywe need to you know, exist.
I think definitely there'spushback on whether we need
(49:25):
police or not.
I think even within our owncoalition.
I'll share that one of ourcoalition members does training
for police cadets, for newpolice cadets.
So our our abolitionist valuesdon't necessarily align in that
(49:45):
way.
They see and they view theirwork in a very different way,
but we're still able to cometogether to create a project
that is rooted in abolitionistvalues and some of the like pros
(50:08):
of that is dream defenders.
As an organization, we don'tnecessarily have to interact
with police.
If, like you know, police showup at one of our events, it
could be this other organizationyeah that can like take a lead
on that.
So, as we're doing this workwhere we can't like pretend that
(50:30):
police and prisons don't exist,they definitely exist and
they're very present in ourcommunities and the communities
that we're trying to serve.
So we've actually had, like youknow, police are like what is it
that y'all do?
Yes, like you all need to be apart of the community as well,
but they don't get the like wedon't want y'all to exist.
(50:53):
So I think we are yeah, wehaven't had much pushback from
community around us replacingpolice and prisons.
I think we want to introduceand we need to do more work
(51:15):
around introducing us as, like,the alternative right and this
is what's possible, and we needmore investment in projects like
this as of now, there's onlyone mobile crisis team and y'all
are limited by human capacityand drive time and response time
through.
David (51:35):
You know your, your processes.
What are your plans to continueto grow the services that y'all
offer?
Cindy (51:41):
yeah, I definitely think we have plans to grow the
services like right now, weoperate on six days a week.
Eventually, we want to scale upto 24-7 and at the same time, I
think it's a call to.
It's a call to likedecision-makers.
(52:06):
I think that we want more.
This doesn't have to be the onlything, right this isn't,
instead of police and prisons,like this is the only thing that
exists.
I think it's just a call forother organizations.
It's a call for otherdecision-makers, our politicians
(52:28):
, to really put money intocreating alternatives and
investing into real safety anddo you and defunding, like
police and prisons.
We need to be taking money awayfrom police and prisons, like
we've tried to do that for solong and then it doesn't work.
And so what?
(52:48):
I think, yes, we want to growand I want other organizations,
people, to build on the ideasthat they have of ways that we
can be safe in our communities.
David (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right.
It's not about growing the likedream defenders brand of like
crisis intervention oralternatives to 911 right, like
there are ways that each uniquecommunity can respond to.
You know your community's needs.
What are conversations thatyou've been involved with like
adjacent communities that havebeen like interested in looking
(53:23):
to grow that work?
And then I guess what comeswith as like how can people who
are interested get in touch?
Cindy (53:30):
yeah, I'm definitely connected in a lot of cool
abolitionist like spaces, likeinterrupting criminalization,
for example.
They have created like cohortsand just spaces for folks who
are working on buildingalternatives to meet across
(53:53):
different.
Yeah, they've brought groupswho are working on ways that of
creating safety and building outresponses to violence and harm
and mental health crises to cometogether and work together.
So that's an amazing.
Interrupting criminalizationhas created amazing connections
(54:13):
for us.
We also are connected tocommunity violence intervention
programs.
It's called like CVI.
It's a growing field andthere's different levels of like
interaction with police, right.
(54:34):
So some CVI programs are theywork alongside police.
Some CVI programs work are likehoused in police stations, so
like they go out with the police, but some CVI programs are
working without police andreally connecting into
community-based violenceprevention, intervention and
(54:56):
response programs.
So it's been really excitinglike connecting with folks all
across the country who are doingdifferent types of work and
we've been really privileged toget trained by some groups.
David (55:11):
Yeah, it's been exciting yeah, and if you know so people
can check out those resources.
But if they want to learn moreabout the work of dream
defenders, and specificallythrough the Healing and Justice
Center, how can they get intouch?
Cindy (55:26):
yeah, well, we have dream defenders on Instagram and we
have the Healing and JusticeCenter on Insta, and if you're
in South Florida and you areexperiencing a mental health
crisis, you can feel free tocall 1-866-MIA what are the
balance of South Florida?
(55:47):
it's mostly in Liberty City,yeah, and we also have our
website and dream defendersorg.
You can find a tab called theHealing and Justice Center, yeah
, and you can find out morethere.
(56:07):
You can feel free to email meif you want to directly get in
touch.
If you're trying to build out athing where you're at, you can
definitely directly get in touchwith me.
I'm Cindy at dreamdefendersorgand I'd be happy to talk more.
David (56:24):
Beautiful and you know to tie this back to this whole
series that we're doing, you'regonna be a part of the
Restorative Justice Conferencein October, so if you want to
learn more about that, theresources from the Florida
Restorative Justice Associationfor JAW are also down below.
Now it's come to the questionsthat everybody answers when they
(56:47):
come on this podcast.
You can choose eitherrestorative or transformative
justice, or maybe both, but, inyour own words, to find those
terms.
Cindy (56:57):
Yeah, so I love to do like a little graphic, but I'll
try to help you imagine it theway that I understand best.
Restorative justice is aboutrepairing.
Repairing harm, and we thinkabout, like our community, in
(57:19):
like this linear line there's aharm that happens in our
community that like disrupts ourcommunity, and then the
criminal legal system comes inand maybe take someone away from
our community, which thenfurther disrupts our community.
And so, when we think aboutrestorative justice, we think
(57:43):
about restoring, making surethat repair happens, making sure
that whoever is obligated tomeet the needs that were created
by this harm are fulfillingthat obligation.
And so, in order for healing tohappen and in order for repair
(58:04):
to happen, what the things thatmake repair possible can restore
our community so that we cancontinue on.
So that's how I think aboutrestorative justice.
And then, when I think oftransformative justice, I think
about yes, we need therestorative part, we need to be
able to make repair, we needneed to be accountable to the
(58:27):
harms that we cause, and we alsoneed to look at the system that
created the possibility of thisharm and we need to radically
shift the system that allowedfor this harm to happen in the
first place.
So we think about things likeorganizing, we think about
(58:50):
things like unlearningpatriarchy, we think about
things like reading and learningand developing new skills and
just new ways of being inrelation, in right relationship
with each other.
David (59:09):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thank you for that.
Like it can be so expansive,right.
Like, responding to, like,individual acts of conflict and
harm is an important part ofdoing this work.
But like, how are we buildingand strengthening both the
relationships and the conditionsunder like which we're in
(59:31):
relationship?
To be as equitable as possibleis the goal of all this work.
You've been doing this work fora while.
What has been an oh shit momentand what have you learned from
it?
And you can take this two ways.
It could be like oh shit, Imessed up and this is what I
learned.
Or it'd be like oh shit, I didthat and it was awesome.
Cindy (59:56):
Oh, that's a good question.
I think I have to think aboutthat one a little bit.
I'm thinking, I feel like I'vehad so many, but it's not like
(01:00:26):
coming to me.
David (01:00:28):
I've had so many like aha moments I would say, ah, okay.
Cindy (01:00:46):
So I think that I've been .
I was the transformativejustice coordinator for five
years and a lot of.
I think there was a expectationthat I would just like fix
things or I would come in andlike repair, and I think there
(01:01:10):
was an expectation of like, thatis like set up to fail, where
it's like one person and I thinkit's also unique to like
professionalize the work.
And so when you'reprofessionalizing the work,
you're like oh, we have a RJpractitioner or a TJ
practitioner for there to be.
(01:01:32):
It's like an isolating likething of like one person holding
all processes, or one personmanaging like the policy, or one
person just trying to likemanage all the harm and conflict
(01:01:52):
that's like happening incommunity and I think I learned
even for myself.
I had to like learn to notgatekeep Like I need to, I need
to hold this or like I need toto fix this.
So I've had a lot of learningof like no, we actually need us
(01:02:13):
in community to be in practicetogether around these values.
We need us in community to betraining our skills.
We need to be identifying likeholders of space.
We need to be identifyingsupport people.
We need to be identifying folksthat can encourage others to be
(01:02:33):
accountable, really like doingdeep work around identifying
like collectively, what are ourskills, what are our practices,
what are we good at?
How can we best show up foreach other?
So, really, more of like acommunity like approach.
And obviously liketransformative justice and
(01:02:56):
restorative justice is likebeing committed to community, is
like a huge part of it.
But I think early on I got kindof page and hold a little bit
into like being the one personthat can like fix all things and
that was a big learning lessonaround like being a spaceholder
(01:03:20):
versus like a fixer, or likejust allowing different and
calling the right people when Ineed to call the right people in
.
David (01:03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think, like the idea of the
professionalization ofrestorative justice work is a
longer conversation than we havetime for right now.
But the idea of, like this,just living with one person is
often why this work fails.
I'm thinking specifically inschools, but within
organizations as well.
(01:03:52):
Because, like, if one person isjust like the holder of one,
all the knowledge of all thesystems, of all the policies,
like if they leave or ifsomething ever happens to them,
like organizationally, likewho's going to pick up the slack
?
Right, if you don't havesomeone, you're kind of screwed.
But also, right, you and yourall of your knowledge, wisdom
and experience, like there arethings that you don't know?
(01:04:15):
Right, and there were thingsthat, like, would be beneficial
for other people's perspectiveto be brought in.
Right, you can't be the personwho holds all these processes,
both, just as like humancapacity, but like you're not
the right person to be in all ofthose spaces, to be
facilitating all these processes, right, and so how can we, yes,
(01:04:36):
both train and give peopleskills, but you know, if orgs or
schools are working withAmplify IJ, like?
The question is always like,yes, I have these frameworks and
these practices that you canapply.
But, like, how are you actuallygoing to do it?
Who's going to do it?
Who has the time and capacitywithin the construct of their
job duties?
Right, because now we'retalking about a labor issue,
(01:04:57):
right?
Speaking to you, like yourconversation earlier about, like
, burnout from the nonprofitindustrial complex, how are we
making sure that people have thecapacity to do these things
within the context of their day?
It's a time thing and, you know,for organizations that are
doing community driven work,where there are very urgent
needs that need to be met,sometimes the work might be the
(01:05:20):
thing that takes priority,justifiably.
But if that continues to happenrepeatedly, over and over and
not giving people space toaddress these issues that are
happening internally, buildtheir own capacity to make space
for these processes and thedevelopment, like you're not
going to go very far.
You know the proverb if youwant to go fast, go alone, if
(01:05:42):
you want to go far, go together.
Is cliche, maybe at this point,but so so, so true.
Thanks for that reflection.
I didn't know that I was goingto release that for me.
Another question that everybodyanswers and you know, take your
time with this one too.
You get to sit in circle withfour people, living or dead?
(01:06:05):
Who are they and what is theone question you ask the circle?
Cindy (01:06:10):
Oh, my gosh, rihanna, for sure, okay.
David (01:06:13):
One.
Cindy (01:06:16):
Um four people my grandma , Two.
I'm going to say Rachel, who'sour director of the healing and
justice center, because I loveher so much and I feel like
we're so spiritually connected.
Um, and maybe Ruth, the personwho trained me.
David (01:06:37):
Yeah.
Cindy (01:06:40):
We'd sit together.
She always brings like a lot ofknowledge.
Okay, and the question what is?
David (01:06:46):
the question you would ask the circle.
Cindy (01:06:48):
I would ask maybe there's like a lesson there for me.
I would ask, like what did you?
What do you wish you knewsooner?
What's something you wish youknew sooner?
David (01:07:08):
Sneaky, sneaky.
Now I turn that question backto you.
What's something you wish youknew sooner?
Cindy (01:07:15):
I wish I knew, like the co, all the cool people that I
know now.
David (01:07:26):
I feel like people.
Cindy (01:07:28):
I was diagnosed with PTSD and I struggled so much with
that diagnosis I really reallystruggled a lot and now I'm
really grateful of um not havingthat diagnosis anymore and also
feeling really strong in likemy ability to navigate mental
(01:07:52):
health any mental healthchallenges.
And I feel like now I know alot of cool people, like the
somatic practitioner, a male whoworks at our healing and
justice center, andacupuncturist that like has done
work on a few dream defenders,Just different people that have
(01:08:15):
offered like so many modalitiesof healing that I really like
wish I knew all these coolpeople that I, you know, had
access to that earlier on in mylife when I was struggling so
hard and you know, but I'm okaynow and I know all these cool
(01:08:37):
people now, so it's okay.
David (01:08:39):
Yeah, yeah, I love that answer.
Not like what, but who and withwho comes like all this extra,
extra knowledge.
It's brilliant.
Um, you know we've sharedbefore the ways that you can get
in touch with dream defendersand the healing and justice
center, both on the website andInstagram.
Those will be linked below.
Are there any other ways thatpeople can support you and your
(01:09:01):
work in the ways that you wantto be supported?
Cindy (01:09:04):
Um, no, just email.
Just email me if you want totalk more about any of these
things that we talked about.
If you, I'm always interestedin talking with folks around RJ
and TJ and connecting and justbuilding these important
connections so that we feel lessisolated in the work.
(01:09:24):
And yeah, I just love makingconnections.
So that's all.
David (01:09:31):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you so much, cindy,for your time, your stories,
your wisdom, uh, here on thisrestorative justice life.
For those of you listening,we'll be back next week
highlighting um another personliving this restorative justice
life, but until then, take care.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.