September 14, 2023 • 48 mins
Our conversation with Saniah Brown Jones is the last in our series highlighting Restorative Justice in South Florida. She shares her wisdom and experiences as a young person who's been impacted by the RJ work and programing of our previous contributors. This episode is not just about Saniah's growth, but also about how restorative justice transforms lives, builds confidence, and creates spaces for growth and healing. This discussion is a testament to the power of understanding and the importance of providing safe spaces for growth.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to this Restorative Justice Life.
My name is David Ryan,berserker, castro, harris all
five names for all the ancestorsand today I'm so excited to be
here with Sonia Brown Jones towrap up our series highlighting
restorative justice in the South, specifically South Florida.
Over the last month or so,we've been highlighting the work
(00:25):
that so many folks have beendoing in efforts to promote the
Down South Restorative JusticeConference coming up in October.
Links to find out all aboutthat at the Florida Restorative
Justice Association website downbelow.
But, sonia, you're one of thepeople who have been impacted by
the work of so many of thefolks that we've had on the
(00:45):
podcast over the last little bit, so I'm so excited to have you
here to talk about yourexperiences as a young person
with restorative justice work.
But before we get to all ofthat, who are you?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, just to start off, I am someone who is very
excited to be here.
I am grateful for this momentand I'm just taking it all in.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am a big sister of five lovely younger siblings and
I am an advocate for all thingsmental health, all things youth
development.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I am an extrovert and I am one who enjoys knowing or
figuring out the unknown.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I am someone who takes it day by day and learning
all I can within these days,and that's all I can say.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I am one full of excitement, one full of ideas
that I cannot wait to expressonce I figure out the way to
fully express them.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I am happy in this moment and I am grateful for
these opportunities that I have.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And finally for now, who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I am someone who is ready.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Let's get to it, talking about all the
intersections of who you are,how you're showing up in this
space.
It's always good to start witha check-in.
So, to the extent that you wantto answer the question in this
moment, how are you?
You kind of already shared inthe who are you, but how are you
feeling?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I feel good.
I once again am excited and,yes, I just feel good.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, well, we had Ruth on a couple of weeks ago
talking about her work withFomsage and the community
aspects of restorative justicethat she and her organization
and her community were doing,and you're one of the young
people who is a part of thatprogramming, and so I thought it
was a really good way to wrapup this series talking to a
young person who's been impactedby the work that so many have
(03:10):
done.
So oftentimes I'm askingrestorative justice
practitioners who have been inthe work how did this get
started for you, even if youdidn't know the word restorative
justice?
But I'm curious for you.
When you moved to South Floridaand got in touch with Fomsage,
what were the circumstancesaround that and what made you
say that, oh, this is somethingthat really makes sense for me?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I was introduced to the program by one of my friends
and I was like, oh, this issomething new.
This is something I've neverdone before.
I met Ms Ruth and she has sucha welcoming spirit which made me
really want to be in theprogram.
And then, once I got in theprogram, I met these new people
(03:56):
and we did something called acircle, and in the circle we had
a talking piece.
It was very, it was somethingdifferent from your regular
conversation.
Everyone was made sure thatthey are able to speak on what
they would like, and I knew thatthis is what I wanted to be a
(04:17):
part of, because they really letall the youth have a voice.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, you know you talked about the.
It was a different way thanconversations have been in the
past.
Right, what made you feel goodabout the way that that circle
went, those kinds ofconversations went?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So what made me feel good is that when you are
talking, you are actually beingheard.
You everyone is in this momentwith you.
So whatever you have to say,then you people are
acknowledging what you say.
And I feel like sometimes wedon't take the moment to
(05:01):
acknowledge what others aresaying in other conversations.
And so I was like a healingcircle, healing justice.
Whatever the circle was forthat.
That's what it plans to do isto make sure everyone is heard.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, compared to other programs, you've been a
part of other circumstances thatyou've experienced in
conversation around conflict orhaving conversations about
issues, whether it's in school,whether it's at home lots of
different places.
But restorative justice andcircle practice does offer that
space for deep listening, deepunderstanding, so y'all can move
(05:39):
forward together in a good way.
Right, you talked about circlebeing an important part of the
program, but can you describe alittle bit more about the
program that you took part inwith Fomsage?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, so this program started during COVID and it was
based online and it was ahealing youth program, and what
we did is we taught each otherpractices of how to dig deeper
within ourselves.
So we talked, we spoke aboutrestorative justice, healing
(06:15):
justice, we practiced yoga, welearned about herbs, and none of
these things I would have knownof if I didn't join this
program.
When I did join this program, Iwas in a different state of
mind that wasn't as open-mindedas I am today, and this program
(06:37):
helps you with this, with beingmore open-minded.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
You know, before we started recording, you talked to
me about what you really wantedto share in this space.
You had a friend invite youinto that space, but it sounds
like you were still a little bitskeptical or wary about what
this was.
What was your hesitation andhow did you overcome it?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I just thought it was something I never heard of,
like I didn't know exactly howto think it was, because I just
I did not know at all.
I wasn't sure.
But I think that's also why Idid wanna join.
The same reason why I wasskeptical was the same reason I
once again went to join.
It was out of curiosity.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Gotcha and so like.
When you were in that program,right, you were learning a bunch
of different things abouthealing justice, about
restorative justice, about theseways of caring for yourself.
What impact has that had on youas a person, a student, a
family member, as someone who ismoving into adulthood?
(07:45):
We can start with just you as aperson.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So, when it comes to how restorative justice and
healing justice impacted me as aperson, it made me think on a
deeper level rather than just asurface level.
Rather than what I see in frontof me when I am talking to
people or when I react a certainway, I take a step back and I
think about why I'm reacting acertain way or why someone else
(08:11):
may be reacting a certain way.
So healing justice, when youdig deep down, it goes back to
your parents, on how you act, oryour parents' parents, while we
react in certain ways, and Iacknowledge that and now I know
(08:32):
that.
So it allows me to reactdifferent.
When I am in a moment where Imight not know why I'm reacting,
I know how to take a step backand reevaluate myself.
And then, when it comes torestorative justice, I know how
to listen to people more and Iknow how to set myself
(08:54):
accountable and the other personaccountable.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I like what you said there, because when we think
about restorative justice, somuch of it is about repairing
relationships with others.
But what you pointed out isthat there's so much about us
internally right.
When we say building,strengthening, repairing
relationships, the firstrelationship that you have is
with yourself, and when youthink about the way that you've
been socialized, trained,educated, even within the
(09:21):
context of your family, thereare patterns and behaviors that
might not be serving you, mightbe causing some issues, and so
both examining what's happeningfrom other people's perspectives
and their backgrounds, as wellas your own, is really important
to figure out how to get to theroot cause of some of the
issues that you're facing.
I'm wondering if there are anyspecific examples of that that
(09:44):
you're willing to share.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
What this program taught me is that my voice does
matter when we're talking aboutpracticing with circles, and
having everyone sit around thetalking piece allows that one
person to be heard.
So, before I started thisprogram, I was one who thought
that every time I spoke on how Ifelt I'm hindering somebody,
(10:09):
like I'm just being too much ofmyself for the other person.
So, as I've been, I'm stilllearning this.
But this program has helped meto understand that what I say
does matter and it's importantto be heard, and I have built
confidence to speak on thingsthat I believe matter within my
(10:34):
community, within myself, andthat will be one experience.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
You know you talked about that message coming across
that like if you use your voice, you're getting in somebody
else's way.
Where did you learn that?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I believe I learned that from it can be multiple
places.
I've learned that.
So let's just say, school, whenyou're younger, you're taught
that if, since you're the kid,that what you say doesn't matter
, because who's been here longer, it's a kid or the adult.
So sometimes there were timesthat I believe that I mean
(11:15):
everyone who went through thiswhen we were silent because we
were taught that we didn't knowany better and that it's the
adult speaking.
You know, it's the how theadult.
What the adult says is what itgoes.
So what that told me was likeoh well, since I'm younger, I
just I basically just don't knowwhat I'm talking about and I
(11:39):
should just, you know, just keepthings to myself, like you know
.
And then I'm like I'm justkeeping things to myself, like
you know, and then it'sunfortunate that I did think
like that.
But as time goes by, I'm comingout of that and I'm doing these
practices that help that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, you know you build that confidence for
yourself and then you both buildthat in the space where you're
practicing in circle.
But how does that impact theway that you're interacting with
adults in your life now?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So it impacts it because, like you said, I built
more confidence so the adult cansee that or the person can see
that I have more confidence inmyself and that will help me be
spoken to like I want to bespoken.
If I say what I need to say tothat person, I will receive the
(12:36):
same energy back, and if I keepquiet, then that other person
will not see what I really needin this conversation.
Or or let's say, for instance,in work, If I don't speak up for
myself, I'm not going to get it.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I think there are two things at play there.
One, people aren't mind readers, right?
If they don't know what's goingon with you, they can't be
responsive to your needs, andthen arguably, they should
proactively be asking you forthat if we're trying to build a
community based in restorativevalues, healing values, building
(13:17):
and strengthening thoserelationships, so we're
preventing crises where needsneed to get met.
But I'm curious, when you talkabout that confidence, is there
a specific example that you canthink of when you've used your
voice and being received well?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm a personate of a club called Hype.
It stands for Heritage, yieldsPride and Excellence, and I've
never had a role of being apresident of a club before and I
was very excited.
But I was like how do I getthese students to listen to me,
(13:55):
or how do I coordinate eventsand whatnot.
So I had a mentor.
Her name was Mrs Smith, and Ithought of myself just going
along with the ideas that shesaid.
But I had ideas of my own.
But I was like, well, sinceshe's the mentor, she knows what
(14:16):
she's saying, and she for suredid, but I also know what I'm
saying as well.
So I was like, let me just tryto give her my ideas.
And I did, and that's how wecreated a podcast for Hype and
it felt really good to know thatmy ideas were being expressed
(14:37):
and she was also glad that I wasexpressing my ideas.
And it was kind of just thatself-sabotage, that doubt, that
led me to be overthinkingspeaking up for myself in the
first place.
But that was a time where I didspeak up and I told her my
ideas and we made a podcast outof it.
(15:00):
But we had nice outings becauseof it.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, there was a space where your ideas were
heard, validated and acted upon.
Sometimes when we're in,sometimes as we navigate life, I
think, both as adults and youngpeople, there are people who
won't validate or try to hearwhat you're trying to say, and
(15:27):
that's really frustrating.
If you had expressed thoseideas to your mentor and had
been shut down, how would youhave dealt with that?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Unfortunately, I believe I would have been like I
would have went to overanalyzing and like, well, you
know why not.
But then I would have came to arealization and see how I could
introduce that same idea toHoray again, because when I
really want to do something thatI'm passionate about, I'll try
(16:00):
to figure out a way to make itwork.
So I believe I would just wantto make figured out a way to
make it work.
You know, like at first I wouldfeel a type of way and I'll be
discouraged, but I know that Iwould build that confidence back
up.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
maybe before, before, you hadthis kind of confidence, if you
had been shut down once, right,that would have been it.
That would have been the end,right.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It would have been like okay.
Okay, thank you for theclarification that.
My idea was just not good and Ijust would have been like okay.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah and like, prevent you from sharing more
ideas in the future.
And I think both as a messageto adults and people in
positions of power.
You know, when people speak upand share like, that's a
vulnerable thing, right, and weneed to make sure that we're
attentive to hearing people outand validating them for their
(17:04):
contributions and, if possible,responding to those needs and
ideas in that way.
Sometimes there might bereasons that we logistically
can't do those things, butinstead of just shutting people
down and saying like no, we'renot going to do that, leaving
them in a place where, like, oh,that was a dumb idea, I guess I
should never speak about thesethings again, making sure that
we're taking time to have aconversation about it or explain
(17:25):
it.
And if we can't do that in thatmoment, find another time to
recalibrate and say maybe notthis, but what if we do this
instead?
Right, and you know, frompeople who are young or not in
positions of power, like, Ithink the other lesson that take
from this is right Just becausesomeone says no doesn't mean
(17:46):
that's the end of theconversation.
That was just that.
That was just the response.
Right, then Right?
If no is the answer, the nextquestion could be why not, right
?
No, could also be like well,what about?
This doesn't work?
Right, and then you get tofurther articulate what it is
that, what it what it is about.
(18:08):
Whatever your voicing, that'simportant or why it's important
and why it could be beneficialto everyone in that space, right
, and that's a hard thing,especially for folks who have
had doors shut in their faces,who have had their ideas shut
down over and over.
But, as you were sharing,having practice in circle, where
your ideas are seen, heard,validated, has application to
(18:31):
building your capacity to bethat way in the world.
Hey, you didn't hear me.
Maybe I need to try a differentway of expressing myself, and
that's a beautiful lesson.
That is not necessarily abouthey, how do we repair the harm
in this relationship?
But what is themiscommunication that happened?
How can we understand eachother in a better way from a
(18:54):
leading up perspective?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yes.
So I believe there's many waysand it just starts from hearing
one another out, like everyoneis not going to have the same
perspective, but it doesn't meanthat that perspective is wrong.
So, going back to what you saidbefore about asking those why
(19:23):
and why not when you get shutdown, that is something that was
hard for me and still is alittle difficult.
Asking that why?
Because I was taught that youshouldn't question a higher
authority.
It's something that had toidentify within myself.
That that's not you.
(19:44):
Questioning someone is notautomatically being
disrespectful.
It's just because you arecurious on the ways you can
improve.
Being in the youth program withFomsage and being able to
express how I feel and showingthat showing but asking
(20:04):
questions when I do have aquestion has helped me and other
environments.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So with my job I, when I first started the job I
have now, it was a lot ofinformation at once.
So my job at anxiety center ofTampa, I am an intake
coordinator, so a part of that,I kind of have to tell the
clinicians what to do in acertain way, like I'm not
(20:36):
bossing anyone around but I haveI'm.
It's difficult for me to beauthoritative in some ways.
So when I don't understandsomething with someone at my job
, I Am now able to tell them whyI don't understand and look at
it in this and show my way ofhow would she be ran.
(20:59):
But I feel like Old me or mewithout Knowing what I know.
Now, because of the youthprogram, I believe I would just
go with what they say because itis what that higher authority
said.
So I'm just comfortable withexpressing my opinions and my
(21:19):
ideas, my questions.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
When has that been beneficial like?
Is there a specificcircumstance that you can talk
about?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So it's been beneficial when miscommunication
has happened with a clinicianand someone who wants to be
Treated by one of the cliniciansat my job and I just I Just say
, oh well, I believe that it canbe ran this way, or I just put
(21:53):
my two sins in and then theclinician ends up agreeing and
believes that that's the way weshould go.
And if I would have never saidthat then we would have still
been in a predicament and stuck,you know.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So that's one of the ways right and feeling empowered
to do that, both as Somebodywho is an employee, right but
also someone who has built upinternal confidence to show up
and advocate for those patients.
Um is so important, right, andpeople can think about how that
(22:27):
applies to their context,whether they're working in a
mental health setting, workingin an education setting, working
in a space where you have toadvocate on behalf of other
people, right, sometimes you'reable to bring those direct lines
of communications betweenpeople and sometimes you're able
to articulate the needs of thepeople that you're working with
(22:48):
and the needs that you have todo your job Well to people who
have hierarchical power over youin the organization.
Like it's a challenge but it'sso doable.
It just takes thatVulnerability, that step of like
what I'm saying is valid andI'm gonna.
(23:08):
I'm gonna stand up for myself.
So we talked about what itlooks like in a mentorship
School program.
We talked about what this kindof looks like in the capacity of
your job.
What about in yourrelationships with family or
friends?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
so I have five siblings, all under the age of
12, so they're over here like Idon't care what you say, I'm
right and you know a lot ofarguing, you know which is
normal, but I am very good atevaluating the situation.
When my siblings are arguing,I'm like did you hear what?
(23:45):
For instance, my little sister,what did you hear when mohari
said, when she was explaining toyou how she didn't like, how
you Didn't want to play with her?
That's why she has thisattitude.
It's not just for any reason.
She has an attitude because youdidn't listen to her when she
wanted to play with you.
And then they're just like, oh,like they.
I'm able to evaluate certainmishap when arguments happen in
(24:13):
my household, like I'm the onepeople come to, not people my
family comes to within the house, when it's like they know that
they were, they, this, thissituation can be handled, and I
some way put them in a circle ofsomehow, like within my mind
(24:33):
they're not actually in a circle, but like I know how to
evaluate the steps that everyone, so everyone is heard.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, can you explain how you break that down without
sitting people down like andpass a talking piece?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
so I'm just like I let them.
Okay.
So let's say I'm with all mysiblings.
I make sure that theyunderstand that whoever's
talking right now, that's theonly person who will be talking,
and then everyone will have achance to express how they feel.
And before we do that, I I Givea prompt out, like what the
(25:09):
issue is that they came with mewith, and then that's the main.
That's the topic of why we'recoming together and talking
right now.
And then sometimes they're justlike oh, like you're, they're
lame and stuff like why are wedoing this?
But then after, like theyunderstand, like, oh, okay, this
makes sense and it's helped outa lot, even with friendships um
(25:32):
, talking to my friends aboutThings that they know they
shouldn't do, but they stillneed someone to talk to it about
and hear them out.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And then we talk by together and then they come to
the realization that they knowwhat's the right idea in the
first place right, I'm thinkingabout the work that I do
professionally facilitatingthese kinds of spaces, um, but
also the way that this plays outin interpersonal dynamics, like
(26:02):
with my wife, for example, orfriends.
Right, so often it's thatpeople really just need to be
heard and understood and thenalso know that they've been
heard and understood right.
And so if, in those momentswhen you're with your siblings
and making sure that, um, yousaid mahari like, is heard and
seen and validated by you, knowyour four other siblings for the
(26:25):
thing that happened that madeher upset, right, and they have
that understanding now and like,oh so we're not going to do
that to make mahari upsetanymore right.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Like, one thing about mahari is she's going to say
what she has to say and how shefeels, so and I love that she's
like that.
That is actually very, um,inspiring.
And she's five, because I'mlike dang like that's good for
you.
You say what you need to sayand that's, that's how it should
be and yeah, everyone out andmaking sure that, like Her
(27:00):
expression, doesn't fall on deafears.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Or right, oh, we don't care what you're saying,
you're just five.
Right, you were, we're older,you have to do what we say.
Right, the same dynamics thatyou've experienced as a young
person in school.
Right, like that, those thingsdon't get replicated.
I think about a situation in aworkplace that I am dealing with
, where I brought folks together.
(27:24):
There was this thing thathappened, um, and we just needed
to have them talk to each otherabout, like, we're all hurting
because of this.
And because we're hurting,people have lashed out in Ways
that aren't great and that havecaused harm, but it's all coming
from this place of hurt.
We want to Do the work of ourorganization well, but this
(27:47):
thing is hurting Like this.
This thing that's happened hasleft a wound and we haven't like
processed it together.
And having the ability toprocess it together and let your
colleagues know that, like, hey, you're hurting too.
Um, while it didn't necessarilyheal the wound that From that
(28:08):
event that happened, it didallow them to see each other as
like, oh, we're all in thistogether and what are the things
that we can do to be responsiveto each other's needs in this
time of transition for all of usright and oh, and you know, the
feedback that I got just fromthat space, from one person in
(28:29):
particular, was just about likewow, like it was just amazing to
be like heard and seen for likewhat I was going through.
I didn't have any idea that myother colleagues felt this way,
and now I do, and we can moveforward together in a good way.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes or or a better way.
Right.
It's a beautiful thing when youSee the difference of someone
after they have said what theyneeded to say.
I went to New Orleans with bombSaatch youth program.
We all went to New Orleans andwe facilitated a circle for our
dignity in schools and thecircle was about generational,
(29:14):
generational trauma and how thataffects us now and how can we
change it moving forward.
And when I tell you they werejust, they were getting
everything out that you can tellthat they've been bottling up
for so long and it just feltnice to be that person for them
or be this program for themwhere they can Say what they
(29:36):
need to say, because that's apart of healing as well.
And you know there were tearsand it was just a very
vulnerable moment that everyoneneeded in that moment and I'm
grateful and I know the people Iwas in that circle with are
grateful for that moment.
It was very nice.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, I Think sometimes, because I'm in this
work All the time, every day Itake for granted that like
People are listened to, or likepeople create space for people
to listen to them, and like Ialso find myself Slipping in my
own life right where, like I'mupset about something that's
(30:18):
going on at home and like mywife and I are talking past each
other, like we're both sayinglike why we're hurt, but not
necessarily Listening to what'sgoing on right.
So it's one thing to like beable to express the thing, but
like when both people are inplaces of hurt Sorry, somebody
just texted me when both peopleare in places of hurt, we need
(30:42):
to take a moment, or at leastone person needs to take a
moment to step back and say like, oh, I hear the feelings and
the needs that are underlyingthe words that you're saying
right now, right, and allow youto be seen and heard from them,
and then maybe we can moveforward together in a good way.
I'm curious with that circle ongenerational trauma with the
(31:04):
schools, what, what came out ofit other than people like
feeling seen, heard, validated.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Friendships, different connections and
relations.
A lot of people related oncertain topics that they just
thought they were alone in.
So friendships were created.
A lot of people related incertain ways that they just
thought they were the only onewho went through this.
So once again, we talked aboutgenerational trauma and a lot of
(31:38):
people talked about theirfathers not being present and
how much that affected theirthemselves or how much that
affected the other male figurein their household, like their
brother, and how much, since,that affected that other person
in the household.
It affected them and it was avery sensitive topic for many
people.
(31:58):
But knowing that someone else,what do that same thing.
They kind of found a commonground to connect on and to give
each other there, like theirown, feedback of how to move
forward with how this affectedyou and whatnot.
So, yes, friendships were madeafter, of course, there was, you
(32:21):
know, tears, but after it wassmiling and we played a game and
everyone was just closer thanbefore, because we're in New
Orleans, no one really knowseach other like that.
You know, we're all in thesedifferent organizations.
So what initially came out ofall of this was the connection.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, and what's important to highlight out of
that is sometimes, when wegather in circle or If we limit
restorative justice in our mindto like it is going to, whatever
we're talking about is going tobe resolved or solved In this
hour, 90 minutes, two hours daythat we're sitting together,
we're missing the point right.
(33:02):
So much of what this work is isthe impact that goes beyond,
like, those specific spaces.
Sometimes we'll come to specificagreements about how we're
gonna move forward together in agood way if we're talking about
conflict or an issue, but, like, what's important for those
agreements is that we follow upon those things and continue to
build those relationships.
Right within that context ofthe circle around generational
(33:25):
trauma, you all shared thingsabout experiences that were
similar and, while there's notexplicit agreements about and
now we're gonna come backtogether to talk about this
again and be best friends andHelp support each other through
this right, there were informalthings, informal connections
(33:45):
that were made that have hadpositive impact on lots of
different people in that spaces,both just in general having a
positive experience in circle,which I think is always a great
thing but you also are inrelationship with people who are
struggling with similar thingsand can be of help to you,
whether it's them personallybeing of help or connecting
folks to resources.
(34:06):
But you wouldn't have had thatwithout spending that time
deeply listening to each otherand deeply sharing.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, one thing I could say is holding these
circles.
It's never forced connection.
It all falls into place,especially once people are being
heard and they get that Comfortwithin being around these
people like the circle.
It's never forced connection.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, you've experienced this work.
I'm pretty early on in life.
I'm curious how you think aboutthis Impacting your career
choices moving forward or youreducation choices moving forward
.
I know mental health isimportant to you.
How do you plan to bringrestorative justice, healing
(34:52):
justice frameworks into yourcareer as you progress?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So I just graduated high school and before I
graduated, my mind was set onbeing a child developmental
therapist.
I later than have been.
I have been thinking aboutbeing a industrial
organizational psychologist.
Now what this looks at is moreof the business, marketing wise,
(35:18):
and when we talk about thebusiness, the face Behind the
business, so the people who areworking there.
How are they being treated?
What is going on in thisworkforce?
And that can also be a reasonwhy the business is not doing
well.
Or it could be a reason why thebusiness is doing well based on
how the coworkers are beingtreated.
(35:39):
So I believe it's an Okay.
So let's just go back a littlebit.
Sometimes in the workforce,people are just Worked like
machines and not really thoughtof as humans.
Sometimes like we're here towork, but we have.
We're human, you know.
So if we're not being heard, wecan't work to do our best
(36:05):
selves.
We're not gonna be do our bestin our job.
So I would be that person toidentify how can this business
be better by the people who areworking there?
So I would be sitting with theworkers and I believe that's
very important, because that'show this job, your business,
(36:26):
gets better.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It's great that you have that Analysis as such a
young person, and I'm curiouswhether it's from your personal
experience or your friends, likewhat Experience being a worker
has been like withinorganizations and how you wish
it could have been better for meit hasn't been any situation
where I did not feel that I wasbeing appreciated in the
(36:49):
workforce, but my friends havetold me their experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So, for instance, some of my friends won't get
their schedule until the daythat they have to work.
So it's it's unfortunate,because I believe some companies
don't look at how we havefamilies and Everyone's
transportation is different, IFeel like, or companies have to
(37:15):
take in consideration whateveryone has going on at home
before they do certain.
They have certain decisions,because my friend who that was,
she was not able to get to workthat day and then she has a
chance of being fired, but itwas not her, she could not help
(37:38):
that.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean, and on the businesses side, right, we
think about like there werecircumstances that led up to
that last isn't last minutedecision being made and, as an
Organizational psychologist,right, or somebody who's working
on that level, thinking aboutwhat are the systems that we can
put in place to not schedulepeople or like put schedules out
(38:02):
like way ahead of time.
Of course they're always goingto be last-minute things where
coverage needs to happen but toput people in this state of
urgency Go, go, go.
Being able to respond likedoesn't necessarily put folks in
the best position Right to showup and do the best work for
your organization, much lessshow up for themselves in a good
way.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Right because this was on a consistent basis.
It felt like the let's just say, the manager felt like they had
a type of control on thisperson when they knew that if
they could not come, thenthere's a chance with me them
being fired so and that does not.
That's not a good relationshipthat you should have in In the
(38:42):
workforce.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Right.
I think there has to be thisacknowledgement that, especially
in the workforce that we livein with, or economic conditions
that we live in, with so muchinstability for folks, folks are
in many ways reliant on theiremployers for, you know, taking
care of daily needs.
Of course we shouldsystemically work towards that.
(39:06):
Not being the case, but likeacknowledging where we're at,
making sure that we're honoringthe humans and the families that
go along with those humans andall the other life circumstances
that come along with thosehumans as they work with us, is
so important.
It's tough to do, it's tough toslow down within the context of
(39:26):
work environment, corporateworld.
What food service, healthcareindustry that is so fast paced
and relies on productivity overtaking care of people?
But we can change those things,we can slow down.
Amplifyrj helps haveconversations about those.
(39:48):
Even though I'm not like anorganizational psychologist,
I've got a background insociology and social justice and
all of those things.
So you know I'll let you boy,but you know and world, look out
for a couple years from nowwhen Sonia has her degree.
Of course I'm not holding youto that.
I'm someone who changed degreeswhat?
(40:08):
Three times.
But you know I'm glad that'sthe things that you're thinking
about now.
Thank you so much for that, sobe on the lookout for all things
Sonia in in the next coupleyears.
Now it's time for the questionsthat everybody answers when
they come on this podcast.
You know we've talked aroundthese ideas, but in your own
words, define restorativejustice.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So restorative justice to me is looking at the
reason why someone did theaction and not going just by
punishing them after they didthe action, digging deep down on
how one can be accountable inother ways rather than
(40:52):
punishment.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, as you've been doing this work
over the past couple years, whathas been an oh shit moment and
that can also.
That can be either like oh shit, like I messed up, I wish I did
something differently.
Or it could also be like, ahshit, I did that and it was
awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe when you're trying something that you're
not used to like when I firststarted restorative justice,
even now you're going to mess up.
So my like, the first one like,oh, like, oh man, like was when
I went to is when I went to NewOrleans and I just got
completely sidetracked, like Ijust got caught up in the moment
(41:37):
where I got sidetracked and itdidn't go the way that I thought
it was going to go.
But that doesn't mean it didn'tgo right, because it was
awesome, but it didn't go theway I want it to go.
So my head I was like, oh man,like no, but it was okay.
I think of the day it was okay,but that was definitely those
moments.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
It's a delicate balance between staying with a
plan and being responsive to amoment, and like there's a
difference between, like, beingresponsive to a moment and
getting caught up in a moment,like knowing when to.
Like oh, we're sidetracked andwe're going to get back to the
plan.
Or like, hey, let's see wherethis takes us.
Right and based off of therelationships that you have,
(42:21):
based off the experience and thegoals and the limited time that
you have in a space, there isno one right answer, but you
learn from those experiences,right, and so, while I'm
thinking about even this weekwhere I was facilitating a space
where this person went on atangent that, like I probably
should have cut them off Rightbecause it took up the time that
(42:43):
we had left and like nobodyelse got to check out in that
space, like the relationships inthat space aren't over.
So we can make sure that we'regoing to follow up on some of
those things that didn't getsaid right.
So, like, even though I made amistake in the moment, or like
the impact of my actions, likedidn't allow other people to
speak, it's not over, we canalways go back and continue
(43:04):
those relationships, continuethe dialogue, so like we don't
get stuck in like oh, thathappened and I guess that's that
.
Restorative justice means wecan always go back and repair.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I thought, just because I had an agenda had to
stick to that, and if I didn't,then I completely messed up.
And that is not true at all andI'm glad I realized that.
But my other type of momentwhere I was like okay, like I
did that, is when I held acircle with Lulu, who was also
part of the farm program.
We held a circle on zoom and ithad about 80 people on it from
(43:41):
all like all over, and that wasjust a proud moment because I've
never spoken to that manypeople at once.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Well, I mean, you're currently speaking to a couple
hundred people, but I know likehi guys.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So you know that was.
That was a proud moment.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Okay, this question is tough in a different way.
You get to sit in circle withfour people, living or dead.
Who are they and what is theone question you asked that
circle?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
One would be I don't know I don't know if it would be
cliche or not, but the firsttwo would be my mother and my
father, and I say this because Ibelieve parents feel like,
since they are parents, theyhave no room to express
themselves on a deeper level.
So I would want them to havethe chance to be able to express
(44:31):
themselves and just dig deeperwithin their childhood, how it
was before I came along, andjust have that that moment with
them.
The other two people would bethe singer called Shade.
(44:52):
I believe her whole aura isvery comforting and I would like
to know how she got on a levelof awareness, because I look at
some of her meetings and Ibelieve that I can learn much
from her.
Another person that would havemy circle is Miss Ruth, because
(45:13):
she also has a very welcomingaura and her presence is very
calm, and I would love to knowmore about her culture and be
able to speak to her on a levelto where it's just her speaking
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So you put Shade, Miss Ruth and your parents in a
circle.
What is the one question youask them?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
The one question I would ask them is is your life
how you expected in this moment?
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Is your life in this moment, in the space where you
thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
How's it different?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's different because I'm willing to step
outside the box and I'm willingto do the things that I never
thought I would, just to seewhat it would take me.
I believe that I wouldn't havebeen able to do that without the
things that I know now and thepeople I've met.
(46:18):
So, yes, that's how it differs.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, and who thought you would be on this podcast?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Beautiful, beautiful.
You know, kind of, as we'retransitioning out of here, how
can people support you and yourwork, or the work of Fomsage and
the ways that you'll want to besupported?
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yes.
So ways that you can support orpeople out there can support
Fomsage is first following us onInstagram, fomsage Inc.
It will be tagged somewhere, Ibelieve, and the other lookout
for all the events we have foryouth and adults of all ages
(47:04):
everyone.
We do have a youth programcoming up, so if you are
interested, just look at ourwebsite, fomsage Ways.
You can support me by followingmy Instagram.
That will also be tagged.
And just look at my journey,because you know I'm just doing
what feels right in the momentand you can be a part of
(47:25):
whatever I decide to do.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Beautiful, so we'll make sure the links to that are
in the description summarywherever you're listening or
watching this podcast.
Sanaya, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom, your
stories, your experiencesembracing this restorative
justice life.
Again, this is concluding ourseries highlighting restorative
justice in the south southFlorida, specifically in efforts
(47:50):
to support the RJ Downsouthconference sorry, the
restorative justice down southconference, rj.
The remix coming up in Octoberlinks to that at the Florida
restorative justice associationwebsite.
But again, thank you so muchfor tuning in.
We'll be back next week withanother person living this
restorative justice life.
(48:12):
Until then, y'all take care.
Welcome back to this Restorative Justice Life.
My name is David Ryan,berserker, castro, harris all
five names for all the ancestorsand today I'm so excited to be
here with Sonia Brown Jones towrap up our series highlighting
restorative justice in the South, specifically South Florida.
Over the last month or so,we've been highlighting the work
(00:25):
that so many folks have beendoing in efforts to promote the
Down South Restorative JusticeConference coming up in October.
Links to find out all aboutthat at the Florida Restorative
Justice Association website downbelow.
But, sonia, you're one of thepeople who have been impacted by
the work of so many of thefolks that we've had on the
(00:45):
podcast over the last little bit, so I'm so excited to have you
here to talk about yourexperiences as a young person
with restorative justice work.
But before we get to all ofthat, who are you?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, just to start off, I am someone who is very
excited to be here.
I am grateful for this momentand I'm just taking it all in.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am a big sister of five lovely younger siblings and
I am an advocate for all thingsmental health, all things youth
development.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I am an extrovert and I am one who enjoys knowing or
figuring out the unknown.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I am someone who takes it day by day and learning
all I can within these days,and that's all I can say.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I am one full of excitement, one full of ideas
that I cannot wait to expressonce I figure out the way to
fully express them.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I am happy in this moment and I am grateful for
these opportunities that I have.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And finally for now, who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I am someone who is ready.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Let's get to it, talking about all the
intersections of who you are,how you're showing up in this
space.
It's always good to start witha check-in.
So, to the extent that you wantto answer the question in this
moment, how are you?
You kind of already shared inthe who are you, but how are you
feeling?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I feel good.
I once again am excited and,yes, I just feel good.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, well, we had Ruth on a couple of weeks ago
talking about her work withFomsage and the community
aspects of restorative justicethat she and her organization
and her community were doing,and you're one of the young
people who is a part of thatprogramming, and so I thought it
was a really good way to wrapup this series talking to a
young person who's been impactedby the work that so many have
(03:10):
done.
So oftentimes I'm askingrestorative justice
practitioners who have been inthe work how did this get
started for you, even if youdidn't know the word restorative
justice?
But I'm curious for you.
When you moved to South Floridaand got in touch with Fomsage,
what were the circumstancesaround that and what made you
say that, oh, this is somethingthat really makes sense for me?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I was introduced to the program by one of my friends
and I was like, oh, this issomething new.
This is something I've neverdone before.
I met Ms Ruth and she has sucha welcoming spirit which made me
really want to be in theprogram.
And then, once I got in theprogram, I met these new people
(03:56):
and we did something called acircle, and in the circle we had
a talking piece.
It was very, it was somethingdifferent from your regular
conversation.
Everyone was made sure thatthey are able to speak on what
they would like, and I knew thatthis is what I wanted to be a
(04:17):
part of, because they really letall the youth have a voice.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, you know you talked about the.
It was a different way thanconversations have been in the
past.
Right, what made you feel goodabout the way that that circle
went, those kinds ofconversations went?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So what made me feel good is that when you are
talking, you are actually beingheard.
You everyone is in this momentwith you.
So whatever you have to say,then you people are
acknowledging what you say.
And I feel like sometimes wedon't take the moment to
(05:01):
acknowledge what others aresaying in other conversations.
And so I was like a healingcircle, healing justice.
Whatever the circle was forthat.
That's what it plans to do isto make sure everyone is heard.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, compared to other programs, you've been a
part of other circumstances thatyou've experienced in
conversation around conflict orhaving conversations about
issues, whether it's in school,whether it's at home lots of
different places.
But restorative justice andcircle practice does offer that
space for deep listening, deepunderstanding, so y'all can move
(05:39):
forward together in a good way.
Right, you talked about circlebeing an important part of the
program, but can you describe alittle bit more about the
program that you took part inwith Fomsage?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, so this program started during COVID and it was
based online and it was ahealing youth program, and what
we did is we taught each otherpractices of how to dig deeper
within ourselves.
So we talked, we spoke aboutrestorative justice, healing
(06:15):
justice, we practiced yoga, welearned about herbs, and none of
these things I would have knownof if I didn't join this
program.
When I did join this program, Iwas in a different state of
mind that wasn't as open-mindedas I am today, and this program
(06:37):
helps you with this, with beingmore open-minded.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
You know, before we started recording, you talked to
me about what you really wantedto share in this space.
You had a friend invite youinto that space, but it sounds
like you were still a little bitskeptical or wary about what
this was.
What was your hesitation andhow did you overcome it?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I just thought it was something I never heard of,
like I didn't know exactly howto think it was, because I just
I did not know at all.
I wasn't sure.
But I think that's also why Idid wanna join.
The same reason why I wasskeptical was the same reason I
once again went to join.
It was out of curiosity.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Gotcha and so like.
When you were in that program,right, you were learning a bunch
of different things abouthealing justice, about
restorative justice, about theseways of caring for yourself.
What impact has that had on youas a person, a student, a
family member, as someone who ismoving into adulthood?
(07:45):
We can start with just you as aperson.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So, when it comes to how restorative justice and
healing justice impacted me as aperson, it made me think on a
deeper level rather than just asurface level.
Rather than what I see in frontof me when I am talking to
people or when I react a certainway, I take a step back and I
think about why I'm reacting acertain way or why someone else
(08:11):
may be reacting a certain way.
So healing justice, when youdig deep down, it goes back to
your parents, on how you act, oryour parents' parents, while we
react in certain ways, and Iacknowledge that and now I know
(08:32):
that.
So it allows me to reactdifferent.
When I am in a moment where Imight not know why I'm reacting,
I know how to take a step backand reevaluate myself.
And then, when it comes torestorative justice, I know how
to listen to people more and Iknow how to set myself
(08:54):
accountable and the other personaccountable.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I like what you said there, because when we think
about restorative justice, somuch of it is about repairing
relationships with others.
But what you pointed out isthat there's so much about us
internally right.
When we say building,strengthening, repairing
relationships, the firstrelationship that you have is
with yourself, and when youthink about the way that you've
been socialized, trained,educated, even within the
(09:21):
context of your family, thereare patterns and behaviors that
might not be serving you, mightbe causing some issues, and so
both examining what's happeningfrom other people's perspectives
and their backgrounds, as wellas your own, is really important
to figure out how to get to theroot cause of some of the
issues that you're facing.
I'm wondering if there are anyspecific examples of that that
(09:44):
you're willing to share.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
What this program taught me is that my voice does
matter when we're talking aboutpracticing with circles, and
having everyone sit around thetalking piece allows that one
person to be heard.
So, before I started thisprogram, I was one who thought
that every time I spoke on how Ifelt I'm hindering somebody,
(10:09):
like I'm just being too much ofmyself for the other person.
So, as I've been, I'm stilllearning this.
But this program has helped meto understand that what I say
does matter and it's importantto be heard, and I have built
confidence to speak on thingsthat I believe matter within my
(10:34):
community, within myself, andthat will be one experience.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
You know you talked about that message coming across
that like if you use your voice, you're getting in somebody
else's way.
Where did you learn that?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I believe I learned that from it can be multiple
places.
I've learned that.
So let's just say, school, whenyou're younger, you're taught
that if, since you're the kid,that what you say doesn't matter
, because who's been here longer, it's a kid or the adult.
So sometimes there were timesthat I believe that I mean
(11:15):
everyone who went through thiswhen we were silent because we
were taught that we didn't knowany better and that it's the
adult speaking.
You know, it's the how theadult.
What the adult says is what itgoes.
So what that told me was likeoh well, since I'm younger, I
just I basically just don't knowwhat I'm talking about and I
(11:39):
should just, you know, just keepthings to myself, like you know
.
And then I'm like I'm justkeeping things to myself, like
you know, and then it'sunfortunate that I did think
like that.
But as time goes by, I'm comingout of that and I'm doing these
practices that help that.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, you know you build that confidence for
yourself and then you both buildthat in the space where you're
practicing in circle.
But how does that impact theway that you're interacting with
adults in your life now?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So it impacts it because, like you said, I built
more confidence so the adult cansee that or the person can see
that I have more confidence inmyself and that will help me be
spoken to like I want to bespoken.
If I say what I need to say tothat person, I will receive the
(12:36):
same energy back, and if I keepquiet, then that other person
will not see what I really needin this conversation.
Or or let's say, for instance,in work, If I don't speak up for
myself, I'm not going to get it.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I think there are two things at play there.
One, people aren't mind readers, right?
If they don't know what's goingon with you, they can't be
responsive to your needs, andthen arguably, they should
proactively be asking you forthat if we're trying to build a
community based in restorativevalues, healing values, building
(13:17):
and strengthening thoserelationships, so we're
preventing crises where needsneed to get met.
But I'm curious, when you talkabout that confidence, is there
a specific example that you canthink of when you've used your
voice and being received well?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I'm a personate of a club called Hype.
It stands for Heritage, yieldsPride and Excellence, and I've
never had a role of being apresident of a club before and I
was very excited.
But I was like how do I getthese students to listen to me,
(13:55):
or how do I coordinate eventsand whatnot.
So I had a mentor.
Her name was Mrs Smith, and Ithought of myself just going
along with the ideas that shesaid.
But I had ideas of my own.
But I was like, well, sinceshe's the mentor, she knows what
(14:16):
she's saying, and she for suredid, but I also know what I'm
saying as well.
So I was like, let me just tryto give her my ideas.
And I did, and that's how wecreated a podcast for Hype and
it felt really good to know thatmy ideas were being expressed
(14:37):
and she was also glad that I wasexpressing my ideas.
And it was kind of just thatself-sabotage, that doubt, that
led me to be overthinkingspeaking up for myself in the
first place.
But that was a time where I didspeak up and I told her my
ideas and we made a podcast outof it.
(15:00):
But we had nice outings becauseof it.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, there was a space where your ideas were
heard, validated and acted upon.
Sometimes when we're in,sometimes as we navigate life, I
think, both as adults and youngpeople, there are people who
won't validate or try to hearwhat you're trying to say, and
(15:27):
that's really frustrating.
If you had expressed thoseideas to your mentor and had
been shut down, how would youhave dealt with that?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Unfortunately, I believe I would have been like I
would have went to overanalyzing and like, well, you
know why not.
But then I would have came to arealization and see how I could
introduce that same idea toHoray again, because when I
really want to do something thatI'm passionate about, I'll try
(16:00):
to figure out a way to make itwork.
So I believe I would just wantto make figured out a way to
make it work.
You know, like at first I wouldfeel a type of way and I'll be
discouraged, but I know that Iwould build that confidence back
up.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
maybe before, before, you hadthis kind of confidence, if you
had been shut down once, right,that would have been it.
That would have been the end,right.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It would have been like okay.
Okay, thank you for theclarification that.
My idea was just not good and Ijust would have been like okay.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah and like, prevent you from sharing more
ideas in the future.
And I think both as a messageto adults and people in
positions of power.
You know, when people speak upand share like, that's a
vulnerable thing, right, and weneed to make sure that we're
attentive to hearing people outand validating them for their
(17:04):
contributions and, if possible,responding to those needs and
ideas in that way.
Sometimes there might bereasons that we logistically
can't do those things, butinstead of just shutting people
down and saying like no, we'renot going to do that, leaving
them in a place where, like, oh,that was a dumb idea, I guess I
should never speak about thesethings again, making sure that
we're taking time to have aconversation about it or explain
(17:25):
it.
And if we can't do that in thatmoment, find another time to
recalibrate and say maybe notthis, but what if we do this
instead?
Right, and you know, frompeople who are young or not in
positions of power, like, Ithink the other lesson that take
from this is right Just becausesomeone says no doesn't mean
(17:46):
that's the end of theconversation.
That was just that.
That was just the response.
Right, then Right?
If no is the answer, the nextquestion could be why not, right
?
No, could also be like well,what about?
This doesn't work?
Right, and then you get tofurther articulate what it is
that, what it what it is about.
(18:08):
Whatever your voicing, that'simportant or why it's important
and why it could be beneficialto everyone in that space, right
, and that's a hard thing,especially for folks who have
had doors shut in their faces,who have had their ideas shut
down over and over.
But, as you were sharing,having practice in circle, where
your ideas are seen, heard,validated, has application to
(18:31):
building your capacity to bethat way in the world.
Hey, you didn't hear me.
Maybe I need to try a differentway of expressing myself, and
that's a beautiful lesson.
That is not necessarily abouthey, how do we repair the harm
in this relationship?
But what is themiscommunication that happened?
How can we understand eachother in a better way from a
(18:54):
leading up perspective?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yes.
So I believe there's many waysand it just starts from hearing
one another out, like everyoneis not going to have the same
perspective, but it doesn't meanthat that perspective is wrong.
So, going back to what you saidbefore about asking those why
(19:23):
and why not when you get shutdown, that is something that was
hard for me and still is alittle difficult.
Asking that why?
Because I was taught that youshouldn't question a higher
authority.
It's something that had toidentify within myself.
That that's not you.
(19:44):
Questioning someone is notautomatically being
disrespectful.
It's just because you arecurious on the ways you can
improve.
Being in the youth program withFomsage and being able to
express how I feel and showingthat showing but asking
(20:04):
questions when I do have aquestion has helped me and other
environments.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So with my job I, when I first started the job I
have now, it was a lot ofinformation at once.
So my job at anxiety center ofTampa, I am an intake
coordinator, so a part of that,I kind of have to tell the
clinicians what to do in acertain way, like I'm not
(20:36):
bossing anyone around but I haveI'm.
It's difficult for me to beauthoritative in some ways.
So when I don't understandsomething with someone at my job
, I Am now able to tell them whyI don't understand and look at
it in this and show my way ofhow would she be ran.
(20:59):
But I feel like Old me or mewithout Knowing what I know.
Now, because of the youthprogram, I believe I would just
go with what they say because itis what that higher authority
said.
So I'm just comfortable withexpressing my opinions and my
(21:19):
ideas, my questions.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
When has that been beneficial like?
Is there a specificcircumstance that you can talk
about?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
So it's been beneficial when miscommunication
has happened with a clinicianand someone who wants to be
Treated by one of the cliniciansat my job and I just I Just say
, oh well, I believe that it canbe ran this way, or I just put
(21:53):
my two sins in and then theclinician ends up agreeing and
believes that that's the way weshould go.
And if I would have never saidthat then we would have still
been in a predicament and stuck,you know.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So that's one of the ways right and feeling empowered
to do that, both as Somebodywho is an employee, right but
also someone who has built upinternal confidence to show up
and advocate for those patients.
Um is so important, right, andpeople can think about how that
(22:27):
applies to their context,whether they're working in a
mental health setting, workingin an education setting, working
in a space where you have toadvocate on behalf of other
people, right, sometimes you'reable to bring those direct lines
of communications betweenpeople and sometimes you're able
to articulate the needs of thepeople that you're working with
(22:48):
and the needs that you have todo your job Well to people who
have hierarchical power over youin the organization.
Like it's a challenge but it'sso doable.
It just takes thatVulnerability, that step of like
what I'm saying is valid andI'm gonna.
(23:08):
I'm gonna stand up for myself.
So we talked about what itlooks like in a mentorship
School program.
We talked about what this kindof looks like in the capacity of
your job.
What about in yourrelationships with family or
friends?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
so I have five siblings, all under the age of
12, so they're over here like Idon't care what you say, I'm
right and you know a lot ofarguing, you know which is
normal, but I am very good atevaluating the situation.
When my siblings are arguing,I'm like did you hear what?
(23:45):
For instance, my little sister,what did you hear when mohari
said, when she was explaining toyou how she didn't like, how
you Didn't want to play with her?
That's why she has thisattitude.
It's not just for any reason.
She has an attitude because youdidn't listen to her when she
wanted to play with you.
And then they're just like, oh,like they.
I'm able to evaluate certainmishap when arguments happen in
(24:13):
my household, like I'm the onepeople come to, not people my
family comes to within the house, when it's like they know that
they were, they, this, thissituation can be handled, and I
some way put them in a circle ofsomehow, like within my mind
(24:33):
they're not actually in a circle, but like I know how to
evaluate the steps that everyone, so everyone is heard.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, can you explain how you break that down without
sitting people down like andpass a talking piece?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
so I'm just like I let them.
Okay.
So let's say I'm with all mysiblings.
I make sure that theyunderstand that whoever's
talking right now, that's theonly person who will be talking,
and then everyone will have achance to express how they feel.
And before we do that, I I Givea prompt out, like what the
(25:09):
issue is that they came with mewith, and then that's the main.
That's the topic of why we'recoming together and talking
right now.
And then sometimes they're justlike oh, like you're, they're
lame and stuff like why are wedoing this?
But then after, like theyunderstand, like, oh, okay, this
makes sense and it's helped outa lot, even with friendships um
(25:32):
, talking to my friends aboutThings that they know they
shouldn't do, but they stillneed someone to talk to it about
and hear them out.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And then we talk by together and then they come to
the realization that they knowwhat's the right idea in the
first place right, I'm thinkingabout the work that I do
professionally facilitatingthese kinds of spaces, um, but
also the way that this plays outin interpersonal dynamics, like
(26:02):
with my wife, for example, orfriends.
Right, so often it's thatpeople really just need to be
heard and understood and thenalso know that they've been
heard and understood right.
And so if, in those momentswhen you're with your siblings
and making sure that, um, yousaid mahari like, is heard and
seen and validated by you, knowyour four other siblings for the
(26:25):
thing that happened that madeher upset, right, and they have
that understanding now and like,oh so we're not going to do
that to make mahari upsetanymore right.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Like, one thing about mahari is she's going to say
what she has to say and how shefeels, so and I love that she's
like that.
That is actually very, um,inspiring.
And she's five, because I'mlike dang like that's good for
you.
You say what you need to sayand that's, that's how it should
be and yeah, everyone out andmaking sure that, like Her
(27:00):
expression, doesn't fall on deafears.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Or right, oh, we don't care what you're saying,
you're just five.
Right, you were, we're older,you have to do what we say.
Right, the same dynamics thatyou've experienced as a young
person in school.
Right, like that, those thingsdon't get replicated.
I think about a situation in aworkplace that I am dealing with
, where I brought folks together.
(27:24):
There was this thing thathappened, um, and we just needed
to have them talk to each otherabout, like, we're all hurting
because of this.
And because we're hurting,people have lashed out in Ways
that aren't great and that havecaused harm, but it's all coming
from this place of hurt.
We want to Do the work of ourorganization well, but this
(27:47):
thing is hurting Like this.
This thing that's happened hasleft a wound and we haven't like
processed it together.
And having the ability toprocess it together and let your
colleagues know that, like, hey, you're hurting too.
Um, while it didn't necessarilyheal the wound that From that
(28:08):
event that happened, it didallow them to see each other as
like, oh, we're all in thistogether and what are the things
that we can do to be responsiveto each other's needs in this
time of transition for all of usright and oh, and you know, the
feedback that I got just fromthat space, from one person in
(28:29):
particular, was just about likewow, like it was just amazing to
be like heard and seen for likewhat I was going through.
I didn't have any idea that myother colleagues felt this way,
and now I do, and we can moveforward together in a good way.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes or or a better way.
Right.
It's a beautiful thing when youSee the difference of someone
after they have said what theyneeded to say.
I went to New Orleans with bombSaatch youth program.
We all went to New Orleans andwe facilitated a circle for our
dignity in schools and thecircle was about generational,
(29:14):
generational trauma and how thataffects us now and how can we
change it moving forward.
And when I tell you they werejust, they were getting
everything out that you can tellthat they've been bottling up
for so long and it just feltnice to be that person for them
or be this program for themwhere they can Say what they
(29:36):
need to say, because that's apart of healing as well.
And you know there were tearsand it was just a very
vulnerable moment that everyoneneeded in that moment and I'm
grateful and I know the people Iwas in that circle with are
grateful for that moment.
It was very nice.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, I Think sometimes, because I'm in this
work All the time, every day Itake for granted that like
People are listened to, or likepeople create space for people
to listen to them, and like Ialso find myself Slipping in my
own life right where, like I'mupset about something that's
(30:18):
going on at home and like mywife and I are talking past each
other, like we're both sayinglike why we're hurt, but not
necessarily Listening to what'sgoing on right.
So it's one thing to like beable to express the thing, but
like when both people are inplaces of hurt Sorry, somebody
just texted me when both peopleare in places of hurt, we need
(30:42):
to take a moment, or at leastone person needs to take a
moment to step back and say like, oh, I hear the feelings and
the needs that are underlyingthe words that you're saying
right now, right, and allow youto be seen and heard from them,
and then maybe we can moveforward together in a good way.
I'm curious with that circle ongenerational trauma with the
(31:04):
schools, what, what came out ofit other than people like
feeling seen, heard, validated.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Friendships, different connections and
relations.
A lot of people related oncertain topics that they just
thought they were alone in.
So friendships were created.
A lot of people related incertain ways that they just
thought they were the only onewho went through this.
So once again, we talked aboutgenerational trauma and a lot of
(31:38):
people talked about theirfathers not being present and
how much that affected theirthemselves or how much that
affected the other male figurein their household, like their
brother, and how much, since,that affected that other person
in the household.
It affected them and it was avery sensitive topic for many
people.
(31:58):
But knowing that someone else,what do that same thing.
They kind of found a commonground to connect on and to give
each other there, like theirown, feedback of how to move
forward with how this affectedyou and whatnot.
So, yes, friendships were madeafter, of course, there was, you
(32:21):
know, tears, but after it wassmiling and we played a game and
everyone was just closer thanbefore, because we're in New
Orleans, no one really knowseach other like that.
You know, we're all in thesedifferent organizations.
So what initially came out ofall of this was the connection.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, and what's important to highlight out of
that is sometimes, when wegather in circle or If we limit
restorative justice in our mindto like it is going to, whatever
we're talking about is going tobe resolved or solved In this
hour, 90 minutes, two hours daythat we're sitting together,
we're missing the point right.
(33:02):
So much of what this work is isthe impact that goes beyond,
like, those specific spaces.
Sometimes we'll come to specificagreements about how we're
gonna move forward together in agood way if we're talking about
conflict or an issue, but, like, what's important for those
agreements is that we follow upon those things and continue to
build those relationships.
Right within that context ofthe circle around generational
(33:25):
trauma, you all shared thingsabout experiences that were
similar and, while there's notexplicit agreements about and
now we're gonna come backtogether to talk about this
again and be best friends andHelp support each other through
this right, there were informalthings, informal connections
(33:45):
that were made that have hadpositive impact on lots of
different people in that spaces,both just in general having a
positive experience in circle,which I think is always a great
thing but you also are inrelationship with people who are
struggling with similar thingsand can be of help to you,
whether it's them personallybeing of help or connecting
folks to resources.
(34:06):
But you wouldn't have had thatwithout spending that time
deeply listening to each otherand deeply sharing.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yes, one thing I could say is holding these
circles.
It's never forced connection.
It all falls into place,especially once people are being
heard and they get that Comfortwithin being around these
people like the circle.
It's never forced connection.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, you've experienced this work.
I'm pretty early on in life.
I'm curious how you think aboutthis Impacting your career
choices moving forward or youreducation choices moving forward
.
I know mental health isimportant to you.
How do you plan to bringrestorative justice, healing
(34:52):
justice frameworks into yourcareer as you progress?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So I just graduated high school and before I
graduated, my mind was set onbeing a child developmental
therapist.
I later than have been.
I have been thinking aboutbeing a industrial
organizational psychologist.
Now what this looks at is moreof the business, marketing wise,
(35:18):
and when we talk about thebusiness, the face Behind the
business, so the people who areworking there.
How are they being treated?
What is going on in thisworkforce?
And that can also be a reasonwhy the business is not doing
well.
Or it could be a reason why thebusiness is doing well based on
how the coworkers are beingtreated.
(35:39):
So I believe it's an Okay.
So let's just go back a littlebit.
Sometimes in the workforce,people are just Worked like
machines and not really thoughtof as humans.
Sometimes like we're here towork, but we have.
We're human, you know.
So if we're not being heard, wecan't work to do our best
(36:05):
selves.
We're not gonna be do our bestin our job.
So I would be that person toidentify how can this business
be better by the people who areworking there?
So I would be sitting with theworkers and I believe that's
very important, because that'show this job, your business,
(36:26):
gets better.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
It's great that you have that Analysis as such a
young person, and I'm curiouswhether it's from your personal
experience or your friends, likewhat Experience being a worker
has been like withinorganizations and how you wish
it could have been better for meit hasn't been any situation
where I did not feel that I wasbeing appreciated in the
(36:49):
workforce, but my friends havetold me their experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So, for instance, some of my friends won't get
their schedule until the daythat they have to work.
So it's it's unfortunate,because I believe some companies
don't look at how we havefamilies and Everyone's
transportation is different, IFeel like, or companies have to
(37:15):
take in consideration whateveryone has going on at home
before they do certain.
They have certain decisions,because my friend who that was,
she was not able to get to workthat day and then she has a
chance of being fired, but itwas not her, she could not help
(37:38):
that.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean, and on the businesses side, right, we
think about like there werecircumstances that led up to
that last isn't last minutedecision being made and, as an
Organizational psychologist,right, or somebody who's working
on that level, thinking aboutwhat are the systems that we can
put in place to not schedulepeople or like put schedules out
(38:02):
like way ahead of time.
Of course they're always goingto be last-minute things where
coverage needs to happen but toput people in this state of
urgency Go, go, go.
Being able to respond likedoesn't necessarily put folks in
the best position Right to showup and do the best work for
your organization, much lessshow up for themselves in a good
way.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Right because this was on a consistent basis.
It felt like the let's just say, the manager felt like they had
a type of control on thisperson when they knew that if
they could not come, thenthere's a chance with me them
being fired so and that does not.
That's not a good relationshipthat you should have in In the
(38:42):
workforce.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Right.
I think there has to be thisacknowledgement that, especially
in the workforce that we livein with, or economic conditions
that we live in, with so muchinstability for folks, folks are
in many ways reliant on theiremployers for, you know, taking
care of daily needs.
Of course we shouldsystemically work towards that.
(39:06):
Not being the case, but likeacknowledging where we're at,
making sure that we're honoringthe humans and the families that
go along with those humans andall the other life circumstances
that come along with thosehumans as they work with us, is
so important.
It's tough to do, it's tough toslow down within the context of
(39:26):
work environment, corporateworld.
What food service, healthcareindustry that is so fast paced
and relies on productivity overtaking care of people?
But we can change those things,we can slow down.
Amplifyrj helps haveconversations about those.
(39:48):
Even though I'm not like anorganizational psychologist,
I've got a background insociology and social justice and
all of those things.
So you know I'll let you boy,but you know and world, look out
for a couple years from nowwhen Sonia has her degree.
Of course I'm not holding youto that.
I'm someone who changed degreeswhat?
(40:08):
Three times.
But you know I'm glad that'sthe things that you're thinking
about now.
Thank you so much for that, sobe on the lookout for all things
Sonia in in the next coupleyears.
Now it's time for the questionsthat everybody answers when
they come on this podcast.
You know we've talked aroundthese ideas, but in your own
words, define restorativejustice.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So restorative justice to me is looking at the
reason why someone did theaction and not going just by
punishing them after they didthe action, digging deep down on
how one can be accountable inother ways rather than
(40:52):
punishment.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, as you've been doing this work
over the past couple years, whathas been an oh shit moment and
that can also.
That can be either like oh shit, like I messed up, I wish I did
something differently.
Or it could also be like, ahshit, I did that and it was
awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe when you're trying something that you're
not used to like when I firststarted restorative justice,
even now you're going to mess up.
So my like, the first one like,oh, like, oh man, like was when
I went to is when I went to NewOrleans and I just got
completely sidetracked, like Ijust got caught up in the moment
(41:37):
where I got sidetracked and itdidn't go the way that I thought
it was going to go.
But that doesn't mean it didn'tgo right, because it was
awesome, but it didn't go theway I want it to go.
So my head I was like, oh man,like no, but it was okay.
I think of the day it was okay,but that was definitely those
moments.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
It's a delicate balance between staying with a
plan and being responsive to amoment, and like there's a
difference between, like, beingresponsive to a moment and
getting caught up in a moment,like knowing when to.
Like oh, we're sidetracked andwe're going to get back to the
plan.
Or like, hey, let's see wherethis takes us.
Right and based off of therelationships that you have,
(42:21):
based off the experience and thegoals and the limited time that
you have in a space, there isno one right answer, but you
learn from those experiences,right, and so, while I'm
thinking about even this weekwhere I was facilitating a space
where this person went on atangent that, like I probably
should have cut them off Rightbecause it took up the time that
(42:43):
we had left and like nobodyelse got to check out in that
space, like the relationships inthat space aren't over.
So we can make sure that we'regoing to follow up on some of
those things that didn't getsaid right.
So, like, even though I made amistake in the moment, or like
the impact of my actions, likedidn't allow other people to
speak, it's not over, we canalways go back and continue
(43:04):
those relationships, continuethe dialogue, so like we don't
get stuck in like oh, thathappened and I guess that's that
.
Restorative justice means wecan always go back and repair.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I thought, just because I had an agenda had to
stick to that, and if I didn't,then I completely messed up.
And that is not true at all andI'm glad I realized that.
But my other type of momentwhere I was like okay, like I
did that, is when I held acircle with Lulu, who was also
part of the farm program.
We held a circle on zoom and ithad about 80 people on it from
(43:41):
all like all over, and that wasjust a proud moment because I've
never spoken to that manypeople at once.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Well, I mean, you're currently speaking to a couple
hundred people, but I know likehi guys.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So you know that was.
That was a proud moment.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Okay, this question is tough in a different way.
You get to sit in circle withfour people, living or dead.
Who are they and what is theone question you asked that
circle?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
One would be I don't know I don't know if it would be
cliche or not, but the firsttwo would be my mother and my
father, and I say this because Ibelieve parents feel like,
since they are parents, theyhave no room to express
themselves on a deeper level.
So I would want them to havethe chance to be able to express
(44:31):
themselves and just dig deeperwithin their childhood, how it
was before I came along, andjust have that that moment with
them.
The other two people would bethe singer called Shade.
(44:52):
I believe her whole aura isvery comforting and I would like
to know how she got on a levelof awareness, because I look at
some of her meetings and Ibelieve that I can learn much
from her.
Another person that would havemy circle is Miss Ruth, because
(45:13):
she also has a very welcomingaura and her presence is very
calm, and I would love to knowmore about her culture and be
able to speak to her on a levelto where it's just her speaking
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
So you put Shade, Miss Ruth and your parents in a
circle.
What is the one question youask them?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
The one question I would ask them is is your life
how you expected in this moment?
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Is your life in this moment, in the space where you
thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
How's it different?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's different because I'm willing to step
outside the box and I'm willingto do the things that I never
thought I would, just to seewhat it would take me.
I believe that I wouldn't havebeen able to do that without the
things that I know now and thepeople I've met.
(46:18):
So, yes, that's how it differs.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah, and who thought you would be on this podcast?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Beautiful, beautiful.
You know, kind of, as we'retransitioning out of here, how
can people support you and yourwork, or the work of Fomsage and
the ways that you'll want to besupported?
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yes.
So ways that you can support orpeople out there can support
Fomsage is first following us onInstagram, fomsage Inc.
It will be tagged somewhere, Ibelieve, and the other lookout
for all the events we have foryouth and adults of all ages
(47:04):
everyone.
We do have a youth programcoming up, so if you are
interested, just look at ourwebsite, fomsage Ways.
You can support me by followingmy Instagram.
That will also be tagged.
And just look at my journey,because you know I'm just doing
what feels right in the momentand you can be a part of
(47:25):
whatever I decide to do.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Beautiful, so we'll make sure the links to that are
in the description summarywherever you're listening or
watching this podcast.
Sanaya, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom, your
stories, your experiencesembracing this restorative
justice life.
Again, this is concluding ourseries highlighting restorative
justice in the south southFlorida, specifically in efforts
(47:50):
to support the RJ Downsouthconference sorry, the
restorative justice down southconference, rj.
The remix coming up in Octoberlinks to that at the Florida
restorative justice associationwebsite.
But again, thank you so muchfor tuning in.
We'll be back next week withanother person living this
restorative justice life.
(48:12):
Until then, y'all take care.
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