July 23, 2023 • 45 mins
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How can you use Restorative Justice in building good relationships teacher to teacher, teacher to student caregivers, and within your own family? Find out on this episode of Restorative Justice Reflections!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:53):
I'm David, ryan, barcaza, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Martín Urbac to dive deep
into the restorative themes, orlack thereof, found in season
one, episode 10 of ABC's AbbaElementary Open House.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we'll
highlight how restorativejustice could apply to
(01:14):
situations like building andstrengthening relationships
between teachers and studentcaregivers and within your own
family.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying restorative
justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
(01:34):
content deep in your practice bychecking out our courses and if
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, the links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it, martín,thank you so much for being here
.
Tell the people about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Hey y'all, peace and blessing to everybody.
It's such an honor to be here.
My name is Martín Urbac.
I am a white Latino immigrant.
I'm a drummer, I'm apercussionist, I'm a composer,
I'm an educator, I'm arestorative justice coordinator,
I'm a youth organizer.
I'm a connoisseur of good andbougie coffee and also good and
(02:13):
bougie ramen.
And, yeah, I work with youthmany, many, many hours a day and
I love it and I'm living ablessed life organizing youth
and doing playing music withyouth.
Beautiful, it's lost me.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oftentimes in the context of schools, which you
know isn't a requirement forpeople to be on this podcast to
talk about what's going on, butit is helpful.
I know you've just recentlystarted watching Abba Elementary
.
What have been your impressionsso far?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, you know, I feel like I spent a long time
waiting for just to watch it.
I've spent a long time peopletelling me you know, you gotta
watch this, let's go watch ittogether.
And I literally just startedwatching it two weeks ago
because I felt like I had thetime.
Yeah, so I just watched episode10 today and, to be honest,
like, I really love the show.
(03:05):
I mean, obviously, quintaBrunson is a brilliant,
brilliant TV maker, actress,producer Everybody in the show
is incredible.
So that's, without a doubt, oneof the things that is a big, big
, big theme for me is thatschools are complicated places
(03:29):
and the people that work inschools.
We are just so different fromone another and I even sometimes
think that schools are not real.
Like this place can be real.
I really love Janine'scharacter because she's a brand
new teacher, like she's young.
She has this ability to remindme why I started teaching, like
(03:54):
I really, really, really lovethat idea of like you always
trying to help and it's alwayslike cool and you're always
happy.
And because, to be honest, liketeaching brings me to that
place.
Teaching and being around youbrings me to the place of like
there's nothing else I'd ratherbe doing, and so that's a big,
that's a big, huge theme for meto remind me, especially as,
(04:18):
like, I've been teaching for 17years.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Speaking to those 17 years you've been in the game
like and you seeing this youngenergy, I'm curious if you could
take us back to the beginningof your education journey,
because yours is not the typicalroute that many people take.
I'm curious why you decidedthat education was the thing for
(04:41):
you.
I'm curious like what was itabout making you decide that
education was for you?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You know, I think that I just always resonated
with education.
But I remember me being in thefifth grade and going to sit by
the kindergarten wing in myelementary school and teaching
kindergarteners how to play theguitar informally, or the
recorder, or singing.
I remember being in third gradeand skipping my own classes to
(05:09):
go to the middle school musicclasses and like because I was
taking lessons, already beingable to teach and be like a TA
right, and so when I went tocollege for jazz drumming,
education was just, it was justalways there.
There was opportunities to goin the community and do bucket
(05:30):
brigade classes and percussionensembles, and so my life has
always been like a pizza piewhere sometimes, like there's
more slices made out ofperforming or composing or
producing and teaching, and themore slices the more I tasted
the slice of teaching.
To me, like my whole pizza piebecame just like around
(05:53):
education, and I still performlive and do shows and go on tour
.
Really, I think that the moreI've done education, the more
I've wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
You mentioned like being attracted to teaching.
Was there a teacher who waslike really influential for you
at a young age?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, I've had so many different teachers
that were the were instrumental,right Not to use that music,
music pun to my development.
But I would even say that who,like, saved my life, you know,
like, like, my mama passed awaywhen I was 10.
And my community music teacher,like he was, like he was not
(06:35):
only just at the wake, but hewas like, you know, little man,
like, here's a set of drums, letme teach you how to play the
drums, because I think that thisis going to be really good for
you.
And you come pick me up fromthe house because my dad really
wasn't able to do it at thattime.
So, folks who really showed upfor me and who really, like,
spent all the time and the careand the effort.
(06:56):
And so, in Latin America, I'mfrom Bolivia, but my teacher is
from Argentina, so we would havemy day, which is, like you know
, my day together, and he wouldmake my day, and we would just
like play music together forhours, right, and so that kind
of music making, that kind ofmusic education around, built on
(07:17):
relationship building and alsobuilt on care and also built on,
like, this idea that, like youknow, your life's hard like, let
me, let me try, let me at leasttry to help, has really been
transformational for me, and Ithink it's really informed how I
move as an educator, as an RJpractitioner, and so seeing
(07:41):
Jeanine always just trying to belike, let me just try to do
this, and I'm exhausted or I'venot even really know what it is
that I'm doing, but I'm gonnajust try, Like I can't let this
kind of go like that.
Yeah, I don't know if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, definitely, and I think, like so much of that,
accompaniment right is what isnecessary for positive
relationship building, buildingtrust.
You see this model in a coupleways in this episode, modeled in
particular right, notnecessarily between teachers and
students, but between adultsoutside of the classroom.
(08:21):
And what I love about AbbaElementary is that not only are
they taking time to show in acomedic way what happens in the
context of a classroom withteachers and students, but that
teachers are full, complexpeople outside of that and have
lots of different dynamics atplay, which we all do.
And so, thinking about the waysthat Janine interacts with Barb
(08:42):
, the parents, all differenttypes of things in this episode
are ripe for conversations.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You know your Barbara's blood daughter, and
I'm her work daughter, her workdaughter, yeah, oh God, oh no,
no, no, you're not jealous, areyou?
Because you got all the perks?
So many perks, yeah, shoppingtrips, boy talks, period talks
those must have been moving.
Wish I could have gotten onefor my mom, or even Barbara.
So why don't we just take alook at some of the children's
(09:08):
art?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
A lot going on in this episode and we're only
gonna focus on a small part ofthat right.
Listeners of this podcast knowlike I have a hard time having
genuine conversations about Evabecause, like I have a hard time
taking her seriously and likehaving real conversations or
real restorative conversationsabout this.
So we're gonna leave that partof that to the side, really
focusing on Janine, barbara,taylor and Nina's mom, janine's
(09:33):
students parent.
We see a lot of people tryingtheir best to connect and
failing in so many ways, and weoften talk about restorative
justice as this building,strengthening as well as
repairing relationships rootedin equity and trust, and I think
this episode does a really goodjob of showing like those
(09:53):
various stages of that withinthe interactions between Janine
and Nina's mom, taylor andBarbara, and then Janine and
Barbara.
So what stood out for you?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You know, one of the things that stood out for me the
most specifically, I saw thatlet's break this two different
little situations down right.
The first situation betweenTaylor and Barbara.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well, so what do you do, taylor?
I represent a global brand.
We promote friendship and fun.
She sells booze.
I'm a rep for a high-endalcohol company.
Oh, oh, I love high-end alcohol.
I don't drink it, but I do lovethe commercials.
The most interesting man in theworld.
He seems interesting to me.
The spirit I recognize is thespirit of the Lord.
Here we go again.
(10:38):
I'm just saying with your giftsyou could be helping people.
You don't need to just say that, mom.
Well, I feel like I do.
See, this is a kind of opendialogue that I'm hoping to have
with this parent leader.
Well, I'm sorry, we can't allbe Saint Barbara.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Right.
Like as an educator, one of themost uncomfortable things that
I usually have to do, especiallyas a restorative justice
mediator, is to conflictresolution.
Do conflict resolution betweena parent and their kid Right?
Or, like I have done, conflictresolution between two coworkers
(11:13):
?
I've never done it between acoworker and their parent.
But interpersonal conflictresolution is super hard to do,
we all know that right.
But the thing that stood out forme was that Janine, I think in
a way, yeah, she's like superpushy, she's like a real
(11:34):
sunshine, like I am here andlove and light everybody.
She's gonna make you acceptthat positive vibrations.
But she's really trying to helpat every moment.
She's like trying to redirectconflict and peacemake.
(11:54):
Hey, there's a tense situation.
I think that one of the thingsthat she was, I think that when
Barbara was, when she asked like, oh Taylor, what do you do?
And Taylor was like, oh, I'm arep for a brand, and then
Barbara said, oh, she sellsbooze.
She immediately is like tryingto like huh, you know I don't
(12:16):
consume it, but it's.
She's like redirecting, she'skeeping a hundred right, she's
keeping it real.
She's not like BSing oh my gosh, I love booze, but she's trying
to connect and redirect and soI really connected with that
aspect of it.
And also, as soon as that sceneends, the next scene starts.
(12:39):
Would Janine just going andchecking in with Barbara Barbara
?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
it's okay, janine Taylor and I have had that
conversation many times.
Oh well, I hope it works out.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Because you can just see how much Janine really wants
that relationship to work,especially between her and
Barbara, right Between Janineand Barbara Just going and
closing the loop on, like hey,how you doing, what's going on,
like, how are you feeling, whichis a pretty restorative way of
not just conflict.
I don't think that conflictlike.
(13:16):
I think we can agree that thatkind of conflict is not gonna
get resolved in one scene or aconversation.
But I think that one cool thingabout it was this idea of just
being human with each other andjust connecting and then also
adding the layers of likeJanine's a brand new teacher,
(13:39):
super young.
Barbara is a pretty seasonedteacher who's been doing it for
a long.
She's also an elder.
There's also this thing of likeoh, I want to be loved by you.
And Barbara is also a littlebit of like leave me alone, but
also I love you too.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, lots of different dynamics at play.
If you're appreciating thisvideo, like to help us in the
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share it with someone to help usfurther amplify this work.
Now back to the show.
You know, for people who havewatched the show we'll get into
why that might be a traumaresponse for Janine.
Later, as the show progresses,I won't spoil anything for you
(14:20):
because you haven't gotten there.
But when I think about thoseneeds to like connect, like it
can also be coded as like peoplepleasing right, just for the
sake of like going along, to getalong, and sometimes that's
what's needed in order to likeget a foot in the door, to like
continue a relationship, likemake one connection so you can
like take it to the next level,right, like.
(14:40):
I don't think Janinenecessarily has aspirations to
be like in deep personalrelationship with Taylor, like
in some ways, like that's ourcompetition we're competing for.
Barbara's attention, love andcare and, of course, like it's
not actually what plays out inthis episode, but you know,
having connection with Tayloroften will, in her eyes, put
Barb in a place that is morelikely to give her, like, love,
(15:04):
care, support that she needs,like in that mother-daughter
dynamic that she is going for.
Again, we don't need to getinto, like Janine's dynamic with
her mother just yet because youhaven't gotten there, but you
know that's that's also present.
When I also think about Janineas somebody who is always trying
to connect, it's reallyinteresting to see the way that
(15:24):
like that manifests in herinteractions with Nina's mom,
this parent that she's beentrying to connect with all year
but have just been disconnecting, and I think the way that this
manifests that, I think the waythat this plays out in this
episode, is really common inschools, right, parents aren't
always responsive and the waythat Janine navigates us might
(15:46):
not be the way that we mostrestoratively would want to do
things.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
But, as you were watching this, go on the
struggle, go on what came up foryou one of the things that came
up for me is that, like we justwe just never know where where
people are at.
You know, like we're trying tomeet people where they're at,
and and also the reality is thatwe are also there, right, like
(16:10):
we are teachers and orrestorative justice
practitioners, but that we'realso human, we're also there and
seeing.
That was the first time in thisseason, or, for me, the first
time that I've seen Janine notbe like positive, like a rare
sunshine, like in you know atall, like I didn't know that she
(16:32):
had it in her right, and thenthat reminded me like, oh, this,
like I have done that a milliontimes.
I have been that person inwhich I passed judgment, or a
parent, or I got really upset,or, you know, I woke up extra
early to go to school at 7 30 inthe morning to meet with a
parent, because that's when theycould meet, and then they
didn't show and and so to me,like that hit really, that hit
(16:58):
really hard, because I've beenin position of, like I'm trying
to connect with you, like I'mtrying to help your child, I'm
trying to help, like help me,help you, and immediately just
make like a whole story in myhead as to why this parent, like
how much they're that parent,or how much they don't care
about their child, or how muchmaybe I upset them so they're
(17:20):
avoiding me.
So they're like you know, Istart thinking all the ways in
which, like you know, they'relike blocking my phone number so
I actually call for my friend'sphone and just really knowing,
like you never know.
You never know where people areand, although there might be
some, some families are justlike so overwhelmed with their
(17:44):
children or with life.
They're like you know what.
I can't deal with this rightnow, so I'm not, not gonna show
up to parent-teacher conferenceor whatever.
I I don't really ever want tobe in a position in which I am
making that, I'm producing that,moving my head like I would
rather be wrong and be like youknow what.
This parent can't come andthere's a really great reason
(18:05):
why they're not coming ratherthan be like, oh, they're just
out there partying and theydon't care about their child,
right?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
when we're doing work around relationships.
I think sometimes it is oftenthrown around like, assume good
intent, right, and I don't thinkthat's always helpful.
But in this case, right, whenwe know from a restorative
justice lens that, like, ingeneral, people want to be in
good relationship.
That doesn't mean that theywant to be best friends, happy,
(18:32):
hugging, sunshine, unicorn,rainbows with everybody, but in
general, people would do want tobe in good relationship.
And the reason that peoplearen't in good relationships,
often because they're trying toget another need met, right, in
this case, the need for, like,continued employment and doing
your job.
Was the case for Nina's mom,right, yeah, saving someone's
(18:52):
life, right, yeah, yeah, exactlyright.
Like we never know what's goingon underneath the surface unless
we take the time to do that.
And again, like, sometimes yourintuition is right and your
assumptions about people aretrue and there is bad intent,
but most of the times it's notright.
And we see this play outmultiple times within the
(19:14):
dynamics of added elementary,these interactions with parents,
where, like, there's justmisunderstanding or there are
things that teachers are doingthat is blocking connection,
blocking communication.
But there are lots of ways that, as a teacher, as somebody who
is working in the school, right,we can think about the ways
that one we can be giving peoplethe benefit of the doubt and
think about other ways tocommunicate.
(19:36):
And I'm not saying that Janinehasn't tried and I'm not saying
that Janine is like a badteacher or like Janine is flawed
just because she had, like thisone moment right, but it's
something that we want to beconscious of as we keep going
and interacting with people inour day-to-day lives out even
outside of the workplace.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the things that I would
say, just to follow up to kindof what you're saying, is that,
like, are there gonna be parentsout there?
Are they're gonna be?
Are there going to be times inwhich my intuition will be wrong
?
Are there gonna be times inwhich, like, a parent is totally
BSing me and they're at the baras opposed to like coming to,
like meet with me or, you know,playing video games?
(20:14):
Sure, and also as a student ofabolition, like I think that the
most apt people to take care ofchildren is their parents in
most cases.
Obviously, in some cases,children are born into
situations where parents shouldhave no business having children
(20:35):
, but in most cases, I thinkthat, yeah, I want, I want to
keep, I want to keep that one ofthe core assumptions of RJ
right, like that people want todo good, people want to be good.
I want to keep that hope alive.
I don't often believe it, likeI don't actually believe that
(20:56):
everybody wants to be good allthe time, but I want to live in
a world, in this abolitionistworld, in which that is a main
truth of the world, right?
And, to be honest, I think thatyou and I were talking a little
while ago, like in production,about this idea.
Like you know, I think that'sso much around teaching and so
(21:19):
much around being in schools andso much around like that
relationship building betweenfamilies and teachers.
I mean it is a performance.
Like schools are a performance.
It is a place where I have toperform, like one of my mentors,
dr Chris Emman, talks a lotabout like if you're following
(21:41):
the lesson plan toa T, you'rereading a script, you're an
actor, you're not a teacher, andI super, super agree with that.
And also, at the same time,like I think, relationship
building, especially in placeslike schools, where, like, there
is a transactional spacethere's, I have to perform like
(22:01):
they're like I can't just be, Ican't wow loud on a parent, you
know like I cannot be frustratedor a parent and just like call
them out on it, because it is,it is my duty and also I'm paid
by the state to serve a familyand so it's actually my job to
hold space and not, like thecustomer is always right or the
(22:22):
parents always right, but it ismy duty to really hold the space
, and one of the cool thingsseeing that episode was that
Janine was like you cannot beyour best self all the time.
Sometimes you're just literallyyour worst self, or sometimes
you're just tired, or you alsogot, like in her case, right,
(22:42):
like she got triggered by herown experiences with her mom,
right, and that shows up Like Icannot leave those things.
Like a lot of times, people arelike, oh, leave your things at
the door, like I can't.
I'm a human being and so Ireally appreciate it seeing that
as part of this characterdevelopment, which is a very
(23:04):
honest part of how a situationlike that might go in school,
and then, like I don't know howfar into it, like seconds later
in the scene, she takesaccountability and she's like yo
, my bad, like this actually isnot about you, like I'm going
through something, let's startover which is really hard to do,
(23:26):
you know, for those of us whohave had to do it, it's really
uncomfortable.
We really have to be like I amso sorry, I really was out of
line.
Like let me please start over.
I really want this to go better.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Again, really sorry for what I said.
It wasn't about you, it wasabout me.
I understand, just had someexperience with parents who
aren't really there when theirkids need them to be, but
obviously that isn't you.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, it's a really, really vulnerable thing, and
both the admitting that you'rewrong and explaining why and
letting people into why.
But, like, it's such animportant thing to acknowledge
that.
Like, hey, I am a human too Onthe other side, trying to do my
best for your student, yourchild, right, like, yes, I play
(24:13):
the role I put on theperformance as teacher, but I'm
also a human who cares aboutthis community, who cares about
the wellbeing of children, and Ineed you to see me in my
efforts in doing that.
And, yeah, I'm not always gonnaget it right.
But what is the way that we cando this together?
Again, building strengtheningrelationships?
Right, janine came in liketrying to go to repair first,
(24:35):
like, we have this problem.
You haven't been here.
Why haven't you XYZ, right,without, like, acknowledging the
struggle, acknowledging whatwas going on for her, and so
like, even as we're thinkingabout like facilitating
restorative processes, likechecking yourself is such an
important part of that.
Right, what is the energy thatyou're carrying into that space?
(24:55):
And what is the energy, or,like, what are the things that
are in your past that you'rebringing into that space, that,
like, are yours and not havinganything to do with the
situation right.
It's a really important thingto acknowledge to yourself and
maybe sometimes, like you, mightnot be the right person to
engage in that conversation.
I think in this case it wasappropriate, but I think it's
also appropriate for Janine tohave shared what she shared,
(25:18):
especially after she made themistakes that she made, going
off the on the parent like shedid.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, 100% right.
Yeah, for sure.
I think that that was anappropriate way and also I think
it was a nice humanizing way.
It was just a humanizing way ofseeing how that experience
could go.
You know, I actually beforethat, before watching the thing,
(25:49):
the first couple of seconds,when the parent arrived late, I
was like, oh no, I bet Janine'sjust gonna be like, oh, this
event went until eight.
It's eight 30.
I'm sorry I can't see you, butlet's book another time.
I know things happen.
Oh my gosh, you're so great.
You're like, you know we'regonna help your son out, your
(26:11):
kid out.
Let's do it tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And there's a version of that which is like admirable
and saying like hey, boundaries, as a teacher, this was the
thing.
I'm going home.
We can find another time.
No hard feelings.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
But she doesn't know those yet because she's such a
new teacher and the world ofteaching, right Like teacher
education programs, the messagesthat we as new teachers get are
that, like, we are heroes andthat, like we are, we have to
(26:45):
prepare.
Like after teaching, we stay inthe school until 10 pm and then
we don't drink, don't eat, justlesson plan, lesson plan,
lesson plan, lesson plan.
You, you know, it's likephotosynthesis, but instead of
like light, it's just likelesson plans, ink.
And so one yeah, it's gonna bereally interesting to me to see
(27:05):
in the next seasons, right Like,how that character develops as
a teacher would develop.
Right, like, yeah, cause Janinehas no boundary, like there's
no boundary, and I'm gonna, like, raise my hand.
Actually, let me raise my lefthand.
Leftist activists in LatinAmerica said that you always
deal with your left hand, causethat's where your heart is.
(27:27):
I'm gonna say, like you know,boundary setting is one of the
hardest parts for me as aneducator, 17 years in, you know.
Because, yeah, like, yeah,boundary setting.
I think it's so deep thatthat's a theme that we can see
(27:48):
at the very beginning.
But I agree with you, like, Iwanna see the scene, the
director's cut, in which she'slike I'm going home goodbye.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This isn't about like critiquing production choices
or story choices, but there arelots of ways that that situation
could have been handledhistorically and I think you
know what she ends up doing is aright choice, but like that's
not the only way that that couldhave happened.
The other thing that you knowis at play here is the dynamic
that's going on between Barb andher daughter.
(28:22):
Right, like her daughterdecided that like hey, I'm gonna
go spend this time yes, it's onmy work trip with my mom and
her mom is not having it.
Like this is not good enough.
This is just a side thing foryou.
You're not really message and Idon't even approve of what
you're doing for work.
As you were watching thisdynamic play out, what came up
(28:43):
as you were yeah, what came upfor you?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know, I am one of the lucky ones in which my mom
died when I was young but, likemy dad really, really, really
rocked with me.
It was a really hard decisionfor him to allow me to be a
musician as opposed to being abusinessman, which is what he
really wanted for me.
Hi dad, my dad also passed away.
(29:10):
I would have decimated likeevery single business because
I'm a terrible businessman.
So it's good that I didn'tbecome a businessman.
So I'm one of the lucky folkswho, like I, didn't have that
relationship in my ownbackground but I have seen so
many love people in mycommunities, people in my like
teaching communities and myfriendship that have that
(29:31):
relationship with their parentsright, and I also, to be honest,
I see that relationship, thattoxicity in relationship,
happened between teachers andstudents right, where there's
nothing that a student can dothat is good enough to please
you, right.
Yeah, there's nothing and youknow, not everybody, but most
(29:53):
students really wanna pleasetheir teachers.
It's like most students likethey're like yo, I like that's
been my experience.
It's like kids, when kids likeyou, they wanna learn.
But in my own life, like Ialways wanted to please my
elders, not in like a peoplepleaser way, but because you
(30:16):
wanna make happy the people thatlove you and that you love,
right, and so that relationshipwas very complex.
To me it's a little foreignbecause I can't identify myself,
but I can empathize with it andI've seen it play out in other
spaces.
I mean, I just also think thatthere are parts of it, because
(30:40):
of my positionality, that Ican't understand.
You know, like I am not, likeI'm not a very I'm Jewish, but
I'm not a religious person, so Ilike I don't know what it might
feel like to like have a parentthat like really wants you to
be done with the Lord and thatyou end up working in moves.
You know, like I am a white cisLatino.
You know I'm not a black woman,and so there are parts of it
(31:02):
that that scene as I watched, Iit's like I know what that is
right and I see it, and also Isee the complexities, like I
don't want to pass judgment onit, because I also know that
like they're like thegenerations before us.
It just it was a different timeas well, right, like, and so I
(31:26):
always want to be careful whendiscussing themes like there are
across historical timelines,even if it's just like the, the
previous generation, that likeposition, those in the times in
which that was happening.
You know, I think that, like forBarbara, you know, I think,
(31:47):
maybe, like growing up in theseventies and maybe sixties,
like I think that was, thatthat's just how things were.
I'm not saying they were rightor wrong, but so shy or told,
wise like society, wise like I,you know, I think that culture,
really that's just what it was.
(32:08):
So it's a really I would saythat it's, it's a I.
I'm sitting with thosecomplexities of like what am I
feeling?
Like to want to have a daughter, to be something, and then your
daughter is completely else andyou have no way of affecting
that.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, and, you know, not necessarily asking you to
put yourself in the shoes of,like two black women, but think,
even thinking about thedynamics of like building,
strengthening, repairingrelationships, right, barbara
and her daughter, taylor, havelike a strange relationship
because of the seeming lack ofshared values and ways that they
(32:46):
agree that, like Taylor shouldbe living her life.
And that's, if those values aresomething that you want to
stand on, to the point ofcutting somebody out of your
life or like ridiculing them or,you know, expressing this
pleasure for them and not livingup to those things like cool,
stand on those.
And if you value therelationship above everything
(33:07):
else, what are the things withinthe context of your
relationship that you're willingto concede?
What are the values that youare willing to I wouldn't even
say compromise, but like maybetolerate from somebody else.
Like you don't have to believewhat I believe for me to love
you, right, you don't have to dothe things that I want you to
do in the world for me to loveyou, right, and I'm speaking as
the parent of, you know, a very,very young one, but I'm also
(33:29):
speaking as the son of parentswho believe very different
things about the world, right,and, like I know, within the
context of our relationship, wedon't see eye to eye about a lot
of things in the world, butthere is love and acceptance
from my parents and support fromin a lot of different ways.
Similar to you, my parents maybe questioned some of the things
(33:52):
that I did, but it was neverlike this disapproval or shaming
, for you know, living my life,doing the work that I wanted to
do, whether this is a parent,child, student, teacher or, you
know, whoever it is in your lifewhere we have these
expectations of people that justaren't being met.
Like I think it's reallyimportant for us to think about
(34:12):
what's more important our valueor the thing that we wanna see
happen in the world, or therelationship with the person in
front of us?
And, you know, if it's therelationship, we gotta meet
people where they're at.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, I guess hearing you say this like is really
making me think about.
There's also layers right,especially between relationships
between, like parents andoffspring, uncles, aunts, like
familiar relationship likekinship.
There's also layers right Like.
One of the things that Iappreciate it is like Taylor and
(34:45):
Barbara.
They're still in relationship.
It's a complicated relationshipfull of rubs right Like, but
they're still in relationshipLike Taylor is still coming,
barbara is not like no, you'renot coming to my job.
Like I'm not seeing you.
If you don't spend three dayswith me, don't come.
And there's so many folks whodon't have that right.
(35:08):
There's so many folks who havebeen either have to cut off
their families or their familieshave cut them off.
You know, I have some familymembers that I don't rock with
politically at all and I havesome of those in which you know
what.
We can go and spend Passovertogether and be like cool, nice,
(35:29):
hey, nice to see the kids, allgood.
But then I have some otherfamily members that I really
can't do that because theirdisagreements are either like
denying or putting my or my love, people's safety in danger.
Like James Baldwin says, likethey're like really like denying
(35:52):
my humanity or my people'shumanity.
So I think that it's also layers, right.
I think that unfortunately andI think that that's just one of
the truths of the world is that,like, sometimes conflicts don't
have a resolution.
There's some conflicts in theworld that just like we have to
sit with and we have to justlearn to live with that pain.
But the relationship betweenBarbara and Taylor gives me hope
(36:18):
.
I wanna see kinda how itdevelops, because it's a very
common relationship rub to have,right.
And yeah, although their valuesdon't seem to be aligning some
things, they also have thatconnection.
They're both of both open tokeep exploring it or keep
struggling together, right.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Like yeah Within the context of this relationship.
This isn't about like theworthiness of human life or the
validity of someone's personhoodright.
It is about faith and likecareer choices.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And right, and you know, spend more time with your
mom, which, like, is somethingthat is a little less difficult
to navigate than you know.
Maybe some of the likepolitically charged issues of
our day, which you know we'renot gonna get into right now,
yeah, yeah but within thecontext of you know what most of
us are navigating on theeveryday, like.
(37:16):
We do have those relationshipswhere there's not 100% alignment
and you know the relationshipis more important.
We do have like some level offoundation of relationship
that's there and the way to moveforward is meeting people where
they're at, even if it's notnecessarily 100% where you are,
and you know, hoping forcontinued connection, hoping for
(37:36):
continued relationships so youcan continue to build, which you
know, in the case of this, doeshappen.
But we won't get to that untilfuture episodes.
As we said, there were lots ofother things that were going on
on this episode that we're notnecessarily gonna tie up, but I
did wanna highlight, you know,jeanine and Barbara coming back
together.
At the end We'll be waiting.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Maybe there won't be.
I mean, I know I'm hungry.
Have a good night and be safe.
Bye, I'll pick you, I'll pickyou, okay.
Okay, well, looks like yourwork mom is free.
How about dinner?
Is this really happening?
Okay, sorry, black all Jeanine,I would love that.
(38:21):
Come on, okay.
So how did the conversation gowith the parent?
Oh, you know what?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
It's surprisingly well, you know, jeanine trying
to continue to get into Barb'sgood graces as a mentee and
surrogate daughter.
But you know, as you saw themwrap up that part of the story,
what was in mind for you.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
So that actually was a part that really hit me the
hardest.
I don't wanna speak for otherpeople, but for me I have had
this happen to me and also I'veseen it in different iterations
in schooling where I have hadeither students or younger
teachers really, really, reallyI don't wanna say like push
(39:10):
themselves onto like a menteerelationship with me or with
other people that I've seen.
But I've also been that personwho has like been oh my gosh,
like I.
Really the thing that I wantthe most in my life is to be
loved by you and be mentored byyou, and I've been lucky enough
(39:30):
to have that relationship withstudents in which I'm a mentor,
and also with old coworkers andall educators in which they
mentor me, and I even think thatmy students mentor me, like we
have a dual relationship right,like this mentorship earlier in
our year and now we're talkingabout like, this idea of like
yeah, I mean Jeanine is superpushy with like, please love me,
(39:53):
please mentor me.
I wanna be your school mother,your school daughter.
I'm your school daughter andBarbara is sort of like, oh,
like a cat, you know, like comeon, but having been like coming
from a tradition of like jazzmusicians.
Like one of my old mentors, likea jazz drummer, he was the kind
(40:14):
of person that he would do thislike not mean things, but like
pretty harsh and pretty.
Like no, no, no.
Like he put all theseboundaries Like if I didn't
practice enough to his liking,he'd like send me home like five
minutes into the lesson and Ihad to like walk for like an
hour and 15 minutes because Ididn't have a car.
(40:34):
He'd be like, come back whenyou practice again, and then the
next week I will come and he'llbe like, great, you practice or
whatever, and then we'd havelike a three hour long lesson as
opposed to an hour.
And so then coming backtogether where Barbara is like,
say, let's go to dinner, to meis like I read that as like
(40:54):
Barbara's into it.
Barbara is into that mentorshiprelationship, even though, like
I think for most of the timeit's like this is too much or
like you're doing too much oryou know, putting all these like
old school boundaries and yeah.
So that was really a beautifulway of ending that episode,
(41:18):
bringing closure, but also it'sI think it's a very real way.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I have seen that play out you know, yeah, I mean, and
this is a continuing evolvingrelationship between the two of
them and, you know, over thecourse of the rest of the season
going on into next, we see, youknow, the way that Barbara
grows, the way that like thisactually does in some ways serve
a need for Barbara.
(41:43):
I think this does just speak tothe like ever growing, the
evolving relationship thatpeople have within the context
of their relationships, eitherwith coworkers or people in
their lives.
Right, having connected onsomething that was vulnerable
like this is a point of like hey, we can, we're on another level
, we understand each other in adeeper way, and it just leads to
(42:05):
more opportunities to connectand grow the relationship.
Right, while Barbara might nothave the daughter of her dreams,
jeanine is feeling like somekind of need in that area, like
where she feels wanted, and I'mnot putting a value judgment on
that, it's just, you know,people meeting each other where
(42:28):
they're at, in efforts to againbuild strength in and repair,
when necessary, relationships.
Ooh, so much good in thisepisode.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Abba Elementary.
Join us for a live event onMonday, july 31st.
(42:51):
Link with more info in thedescription.
Just want to get to some of thequick questions that everyone
answers when they come on thispodcast.
If you were to be cast as acharacter on Abba Elementary,
what role would you want to playor who would you want to be at
the school?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Can it be a new character?
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, you know, it would just have to be a version
of, like Jack Black's likeSchool of Rock, like I mean, it
would just have to be like a weare going like we're going to
tear it down, we're going to go,and you know like it'll have to
be that like high energy, likerock and roll, like free improv,
like wild music teacher who'salso just like a pocket full of
(43:34):
snacks for everybody, like beinglike, you know, like the
classes and the place to likereally like, like that.
I think that one.
Yeah, it would just be like thelet's have fun all the time,
let's learn, let's connect witheach other.
Let's also like talk about somereal things.
I think that my character hasalready been written and I think
(43:57):
Jack Black is it.
I can imagine a character likethat playing well in Abba
Elementary and you know, in theend of episode 10, we see Abba's
beat maker machine and DJ board.
So you know it can get somemore use.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Farron, Farron, beautiful.
Thank you so much, Martine, forbeing here.
How can people support you andyour work in the ways that you
want to be supported?
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
And, yeah, thanks for having me Ways in which I'd be
contacted and supported.
My website is martineurbachcom.
I also facilitate a group ofyouth restorative justice
practitioners and leaders andwe're called the Circle Keepers.
You can reach us atthecirclekeeperscom.
Our Instagrams are the CircleKeepers.
(44:52):
My own Instagram is atLiberation Drumps and I have a
link tree where you can get alot of different resources they
you can also donate to supportyouth programming in social
justice and restorative justiceand that is link tree.
I think it is linktree slashCircle Keepers.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Beautiful, and all that will be linked up again.
Thank you so much for being onrestorative justice reflections.
We'll be back very soonbreaking down episode 11 of Abba
, Elementary season one.
Can't wait until then.
Take care.
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:53):
I'm David, ryan, barcaza, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Martín Urbac to dive deep
into the restorative themes, orlack thereof, found in season
one, episode 10 of ABC's AbbaElementary Open House.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we'll
highlight how restorativejustice could apply to
(01:14):
situations like building andstrengthening relationships
between teachers and studentcaregivers and within your own
family.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying restorative
justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
(01:34):
content deep in your practice bychecking out our courses and if
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, the links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it, martín,thank you so much for being here
.
Tell the people about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Hey y'all, peace and blessing to everybody.
It's such an honor to be here.
My name is Martín Urbac.
I am a white Latino immigrant.
I'm a drummer, I'm apercussionist, I'm a composer,
I'm an educator, I'm arestorative justice coordinator,
I'm a youth organizer.
I'm a connoisseur of good andbougie coffee and also good and
(02:13):
bougie ramen.
And, yeah, I work with youthmany, many, many hours a day and
I love it and I'm living ablessed life organizing youth
and doing playing music withyouth.
Beautiful, it's lost me.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oftentimes in the context of schools, which you
know isn't a requirement forpeople to be on this podcast to
talk about what's going on, butit is helpful.
I know you've just recentlystarted watching Abba Elementary
.
What have been your impressionsso far?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, you know, I feel like I spent a long time
waiting for just to watch it.
I've spent a long time peopletelling me you know, you gotta
watch this, let's go watch ittogether.
And I literally just startedwatching it two weeks ago
because I felt like I had thetime.
Yeah, so I just watched episode10 today and, to be honest,
like, I really love the show.
(03:05):
I mean, obviously, quintaBrunson is a brilliant,
brilliant TV maker, actress,producer Everybody in the show
is incredible.
So that's, without a doubt, oneof the things that is a big, big
, big theme for me is thatschools are complicated places
(03:29):
and the people that work inschools.
We are just so different fromone another and I even sometimes
think that schools are not real.
Like this place can be real.
I really love Janine'scharacter because she's a brand
new teacher, like she's young.
She has this ability to remindme why I started teaching, like
(03:54):
I really, really, really lovethat idea of like you always
trying to help and it's alwayslike cool and you're always
happy.
And because, to be honest, liketeaching brings me to that
place.
Teaching and being around youbrings me to the place of like
there's nothing else I'd ratherbe doing, and so that's a big,
that's a big, huge theme for meto remind me, especially as,
(04:18):
like, I've been teaching for 17years.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Speaking to those 17 years you've been in the game
like and you seeing this youngenergy, I'm curious if you could
take us back to the beginningof your education journey,
because yours is not the typicalroute that many people take.
I'm curious why you decidedthat education was the thing for
(04:41):
you.
I'm curious like what was itabout making you decide that
education was for you?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You know, I think that I just always resonated
with education.
But I remember me being in thefifth grade and going to sit by
the kindergarten wing in myelementary school and teaching
kindergarteners how to play theguitar informally, or the
recorder, or singing.
I remember being in third gradeand skipping my own classes to
(05:09):
go to the middle school musicclasses and like because I was
taking lessons, already beingable to teach and be like a TA
right, and so when I went tocollege for jazz drumming,
education was just, it was justalways there.
There was opportunities to goin the community and do bucket
(05:30):
brigade classes and percussionensembles, and so my life has
always been like a pizza piewhere sometimes, like there's
more slices made out ofperforming or composing or
producing and teaching, and themore slices the more I tasted
the slice of teaching.
To me, like my whole pizza piebecame just like around
(05:53):
education, and I still performlive and do shows and go on tour
.
Really, I think that the moreI've done education, the more
I've wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
You mentioned like being attracted to teaching.
Was there a teacher who waslike really influential for you
at a young age?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, I've had so many different teachers
that were the were instrumental,right Not to use that music,
music pun to my development.
But I would even say that who,like, saved my life, you know,
like, like, my mama passed awaywhen I was 10.
And my community music teacher,like he was, like he was not
(06:35):
only just at the wake, but hewas like, you know, little man,
like, here's a set of drums, letme teach you how to play the
drums, because I think that thisis going to be really good for
you.
And you come pick me up fromthe house because my dad really
wasn't able to do it at thattime.
So, folks who really showed upfor me and who really, like,
spent all the time and the careand the effort.
(06:56):
And so, in Latin America, I'mfrom Bolivia, but my teacher is
from Argentina, so we would havemy day, which is, like you know
, my day together, and he wouldmake my day, and we would just
like play music together forhours, right, and so that kind
of music making, that kind ofmusic education around, built on
(07:17):
relationship building and alsobuilt on care and also built on,
like, this idea that, like youknow, your life's hard like, let
me, let me try, let me at leasttry to help, has really been
transformational for me, and Ithink it's really informed how I
move as an educator, as an RJpractitioner, and so seeing
(07:41):
Jeanine always just trying to belike, let me just try to do
this, and I'm exhausted or I'venot even really know what it is
that I'm doing, but I'm gonnajust try, Like I can't let this
kind of go like that.
Yeah, I don't know if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, definitely, and I think, like so much of that,
accompaniment right is what isnecessary for positive
relationship building, buildingtrust.
You see this model in a coupleways in this episode, modeled in
particular right, notnecessarily between teachers and
students, but between adultsoutside of the classroom.
(08:21):
And what I love about AbbaElementary is that not only are
they taking time to show in acomedic way what happens in the
context of a classroom withteachers and students, but that
teachers are full, complexpeople outside of that and have
lots of different dynamics atplay, which we all do.
And so, thinking about the waysthat Janine interacts with Barb
(08:42):
, the parents, all differenttypes of things in this episode
are ripe for conversations.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You know your Barbara's blood daughter, and
I'm her work daughter, her workdaughter, yeah, oh God, oh no,
no, no, you're not jealous, areyou?
Because you got all the perks?
So many perks, yeah, shoppingtrips, boy talks, period talks
those must have been moving.
Wish I could have gotten onefor my mom, or even Barbara.
So why don't we just take alook at some of the children's
(09:08):
art?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
A lot going on in this episode and we're only
gonna focus on a small part ofthat right.
Listeners of this podcast knowlike I have a hard time having
genuine conversations about Evabecause, like I have a hard time
taking her seriously and likehaving real conversations or
real restorative conversationsabout this.
So we're gonna leave that partof that to the side, really
focusing on Janine, barbara,taylor and Nina's mom, janine's
(09:33):
students parent.
We see a lot of people tryingtheir best to connect and
failing in so many ways, and weoften talk about restorative
justice as this building,strengthening as well as
repairing relationships rootedin equity and trust, and I think
this episode does a really goodjob of showing like those
(09:53):
various stages of that withinthe interactions between Janine
and Nina's mom, taylor andBarbara, and then Janine and
Barbara.
So what stood out for you?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You know, one of the things that stood out for me the
most specifically, I saw thatlet's break this two different
little situations down right.
The first situation betweenTaylor and Barbara.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well, so what do you do, taylor?
I represent a global brand.
We promote friendship and fun.
She sells booze.
I'm a rep for a high-endalcohol company.
Oh, oh, I love high-end alcohol.
I don't drink it, but I do lovethe commercials.
The most interesting man in theworld.
He seems interesting to me.
The spirit I recognize is thespirit of the Lord.
Here we go again.
(10:38):
I'm just saying with your giftsyou could be helping people.
You don't need to just say that, mom.
Well, I feel like I do.
See, this is a kind of opendialogue that I'm hoping to have
with this parent leader.
Well, I'm sorry, we can't allbe Saint Barbara.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Right.
Like as an educator, one of themost uncomfortable things that
I usually have to do, especiallyas a restorative justice
mediator, is to conflictresolution.
Do conflict resolution betweena parent and their kid Right?
Or, like I have done, conflictresolution between two coworkers
(11:13):
?
I've never done it between acoworker and their parent.
But interpersonal conflictresolution is super hard to do,
we all know that right.
But the thing that stood out forme was that Janine, I think in
a way, yeah, she's like superpushy, she's like a real
(11:34):
sunshine, like I am here andlove and light everybody.
She's gonna make you acceptthat positive vibrations.
But she's really trying to helpat every moment.
She's like trying to redirectconflict and peacemake.
(11:54):
Hey, there's a tense situation.
I think that one of the thingsthat she was, I think that when
Barbara was, when she asked like, oh Taylor, what do you do?
And Taylor was like, oh, I'm arep for a brand, and then
Barbara said, oh, she sellsbooze.
She immediately is like tryingto like huh, you know I don't
(12:16):
consume it, but it's.
She's like redirecting, she'skeeping a hundred right, she's
keeping it real.
She's not like BSing oh my gosh, I love booze, but she's trying
to connect and redirect and soI really connected with that
aspect of it.
And also, as soon as that sceneends, the next scene starts.
(12:39):
Would Janine just going andchecking in with Barbara Barbara
?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
it's okay, janine Taylor and I have had that
conversation many times.
Oh well, I hope it works out.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Because you can just see how much Janine really wants
that relationship to work,especially between her and
Barbara, right Between Janineand Barbara Just going and
closing the loop on, like hey,how you doing, what's going on,
like, how are you feeling, whichis a pretty restorative way of
not just conflict.
I don't think that conflictlike.
(13:16):
I think we can agree that thatkind of conflict is not gonna
get resolved in one scene or aconversation.
But I think that one cool thingabout it was this idea of just
being human with each other andjust connecting and then also
adding the layers of likeJanine's a brand new teacher,
(13:39):
super young.
Barbara is a pretty seasonedteacher who's been doing it for
a long.
She's also an elder.
There's also this thing of likeoh, I want to be loved by you.
And Barbara is also a littlebit of like leave me alone, but
also I love you too.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, lots of different dynamics at play.
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Now back to the show.
You know, for people who havewatched the show we'll get into
why that might be a traumaresponse for Janine.
Later, as the show progresses,I won't spoil anything for you
(14:20):
because you haven't gotten there.
But when I think about thoseneeds to like connect, like it
can also be coded as like peoplepleasing right, just for the
sake of like going along, to getalong, and sometimes that's
what's needed in order to likeget a foot in the door, to like
continue a relationship, likemake one connection so you can
like take it to the next level,right, like.
(14:40):
I don't think Janinenecessarily has aspirations to
be like in deep personalrelationship with Taylor, like
in some ways, like that's ourcompetition we're competing for.
Barbara's attention, love andcare and, of course, like it's
not actually what plays out inthis episode, but you know,
having connection with Tayloroften will, in her eyes, put
Barb in a place that is morelikely to give her, like, love,
(15:04):
care, support that she needs,like in that mother-daughter
dynamic that she is going for.
Again, we don't need to getinto, like Janine's dynamic with
her mother just yet because youhaven't gotten there, but you
know that's that's also present.
When I also think about Janineas somebody who is always trying
to connect, it's reallyinteresting to see the way that
(15:24):
like that manifests in herinteractions with Nina's mom,
this parent that she's beentrying to connect with all year
but have just been disconnecting, and I think the way that this
manifests that, I think the waythat this plays out in this
episode, is really common inschools, right, parents aren't
always responsive and the waythat Janine navigates us might
(15:46):
not be the way that we mostrestoratively would want to do
things.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
But, as you were watching this, go on the
struggle, go on what came up foryou one of the things that came
up for me is that, like we justwe just never know where where
people are at.
You know, like we're trying tomeet people where they're at,
and and also the reality is thatwe are also there, right, like
(16:10):
we are teachers and orrestorative justice
practitioners, but that we'realso human, we're also there and
seeing.
That was the first time in thisseason, or, for me, the first
time that I've seen Janine notbe like positive, like a rare
sunshine, like in you know atall, like I didn't know that she
(16:32):
had it in her right, and thenthat reminded me like, oh, this,
like I have done that a milliontimes.
I have been that person inwhich I passed judgment, or a
parent, or I got really upset,or, you know, I woke up extra
early to go to school at 7 30 inthe morning to meet with a
parent, because that's when theycould meet, and then they
didn't show and and so to me,like that hit really, that hit
(16:58):
really hard, because I've beenin position of, like I'm trying
to connect with you, like I'mtrying to help your child, I'm
trying to help, like help me,help you, and immediately just
make like a whole story in myhead as to why this parent, like
how much they're that parent,or how much they don't care
about their child, or how muchmaybe I upset them so they're
(17:20):
avoiding me.
So they're like you know, Istart thinking all the ways in
which, like you know, they'relike blocking my phone number so
I actually call for my friend'sphone and just really knowing,
like you never know.
You never know where people areand, although there might be
some, some families are justlike so overwhelmed with their
(17:44):
children or with life.
They're like you know what.
I can't deal with this rightnow, so I'm not, not gonna show
up to parent-teacher conferenceor whatever.
I I don't really ever want tobe in a position in which I am
making that, I'm producing that,moving my head like I would
rather be wrong and be like youknow what.
This parent can't come andthere's a really great reason
(18:05):
why they're not coming ratherthan be like, oh, they're just
out there partying and theydon't care about their child,
right?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
when we're doing work around relationships.
I think sometimes it is oftenthrown around like, assume good
intent, right, and I don't thinkthat's always helpful.
But in this case, right, whenwe know from a restorative
justice lens that, like, ingeneral, people want to be in
good relationship.
That doesn't mean that theywant to be best friends, happy,
(18:32):
hugging, sunshine, unicorn,rainbows with everybody, but in
general, people would do want tobe in good relationship.
And the reason that peoplearen't in good relationships,
often because they're trying toget another need met, right, in
this case, the need for, like,continued employment and doing
your job.
Was the case for Nina's mom,right, yeah, saving someone's
(18:52):
life, right, yeah, yeah, exactlyright.
Like we never know what's goingon underneath the surface unless
we take the time to do that.
And again, like, sometimes yourintuition is right and your
assumptions about people aretrue and there is bad intent,
but most of the times it's notright.
And we see this play outmultiple times within the
(19:14):
dynamics of added elementary,these interactions with parents,
where, like, there's justmisunderstanding or there are
things that teachers are doingthat is blocking connection,
blocking communication.
But there are lots of ways that, as a teacher, as somebody who
is working in the school, right,we can think about the ways
that one we can be giving peoplethe benefit of the doubt and
think about other ways tocommunicate.
(19:36):
And I'm not saying that Janinehasn't tried and I'm not saying
that Janine is like a badteacher or like Janine is flawed
just because she had, like thisone moment right, but it's
something that we want to beconscious of as we keep going
and interacting with people inour day-to-day lives out even
outside of the workplace.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the things that I would
say, just to follow up to kindof what you're saying, is that,
like, are there gonna be parentsout there?
Are they're gonna be?
Are there going to be times inwhich my intuition will be wrong
?
Are there gonna be times inwhich, like, a parent is totally
BSing me and they're at the baras opposed to like coming to,
like meet with me or, you know,playing video games?
(20:14):
Sure, and also as a student ofabolition, like I think that the
most apt people to take care ofchildren is their parents in
most cases.
Obviously, in some cases,children are born into
situations where parents shouldhave no business having children
(20:35):
, but in most cases, I thinkthat, yeah, I want, I want to
keep, I want to keep that one ofthe core assumptions of RJ
right, like that people want todo good, people want to be good.
I want to keep that hope alive.
I don't often believe it, likeI don't actually believe that
(20:56):
everybody wants to be good allthe time, but I want to live in
a world, in this abolitionistworld, in which that is a main
truth of the world, right?
And, to be honest, I think thatyou and I were talking a little
while ago, like in production,about this idea.
Like you know, I think that'sso much around teaching and so
(21:19):
much around being in schools andso much around like that
relationship building betweenfamilies and teachers.
I mean it is a performance.
Like schools are a performance.
It is a place where I have toperform, like one of my mentors,
dr Chris Emman, talks a lotabout like if you're following
(21:41):
the lesson plan toa T, you'rereading a script, you're an
actor, you're not a teacher, andI super, super agree with that.
And also, at the same time,like I think, relationship
building, especially in placeslike schools, where, like, there
is a transactional spacethere's, I have to perform like
(22:01):
they're like I can't just be, Ican't wow loud on a parent, you
know like I cannot be frustratedor a parent and just like call
them out on it, because it is,it is my duty and also I'm paid
by the state to serve a familyand so it's actually my job to
hold space and not, like thecustomer is always right or the
(22:22):
parents always right, but it ismy duty to really hold the space
, and one of the cool thingsseeing that episode was that
Janine was like you cannot beyour best self all the time.
Sometimes you're just literallyyour worst self, or sometimes
you're just tired, or you alsogot, like in her case, right,
(22:42):
like she got triggered by herown experiences with her mom,
right, and that shows up Like Icannot leave those things.
Like a lot of times, people arelike, oh, leave your things at
the door, like I can't.
I'm a human being and so Ireally appreciate it seeing that
as part of this characterdevelopment, which is a very
(23:04):
honest part of how a situationlike that might go in school,
and then, like I don't know howfar into it, like seconds later
in the scene, she takesaccountability and she's like yo
, my bad, like this actually isnot about you, like I'm going
through something, let's startover which is really hard to do,
(23:26):
you know, for those of us whohave had to do it, it's really
uncomfortable.
We really have to be like I amso sorry, I really was out of
line.
Like let me please start over.
I really want this to go better.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Again, really sorry for what I said.
It wasn't about you, it wasabout me.
I understand, just had someexperience with parents who
aren't really there when theirkids need them to be, but
obviously that isn't you.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, it's a really, really vulnerable thing, and
both the admitting that you'rewrong and explaining why and
letting people into why.
But, like, it's such animportant thing to acknowledge
that.
Like, hey, I am a human too Onthe other side, trying to do my
best for your student, yourchild, right, like, yes, I play
(24:13):
the role I put on theperformance as teacher, but I'm
also a human who cares aboutthis community, who cares about
the wellbeing of children, and Ineed you to see me in my
efforts in doing that.
And, yeah, I'm not always gonnaget it right.
But what is the way that we cando this together?
Again, building strengtheningrelationships?
Right, janine came in liketrying to go to repair first,
(24:35):
like, we have this problem.
You haven't been here.
Why haven't you XYZ, right,without, like, acknowledging the
struggle, acknowledging whatwas going on for her, and so
like, even as we're thinkingabout like facilitating
restorative processes, likechecking yourself is such an
important part of that.
Right, what is the energy thatyou're carrying into that space?
(24:55):
And what is the energy, or,like, what are the things that
are in your past that you'rebringing into that space, that,
like, are yours and not havinganything to do with the
situation right.
It's a really important thingto acknowledge to yourself and
maybe sometimes, like you, mightnot be the right person to
engage in that conversation.
I think in this case it wasappropriate, but I think it's
also appropriate for Janine tohave shared what she shared,
(25:18):
especially after she made themistakes that she made, going
off the on the parent like shedid.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, 100% right.
Yeah, for sure.
I think that that was anappropriate way and also I think
it was a nice humanizing way.
It was just a humanizing way ofseeing how that experience
could go.
You know, I actually beforethat, before watching the thing,
(25:49):
the first couple of seconds,when the parent arrived late, I
was like, oh no, I bet Janine'sjust gonna be like, oh, this
event went until eight.
It's eight 30.
I'm sorry I can't see you, butlet's book another time.
I know things happen.
Oh my gosh, you're so great.
You're like, you know we'regonna help your son out, your
(26:11):
kid out.
Let's do it tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And there's a version of that which is like admirable
and saying like hey, boundaries, as a teacher, this was the
thing.
I'm going home.
We can find another time.
No hard feelings.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
But she doesn't know those yet because she's such a
new teacher and the world ofteaching, right Like teacher
education programs, the messagesthat we as new teachers get are
that, like, we are heroes andthat, like we are, we have to
(26:45):
prepare.
Like after teaching, we stay inthe school until 10 pm and then
we don't drink, don't eat, justlesson plan, lesson plan,
lesson plan, lesson plan.
You, you know, it's likephotosynthesis, but instead of
like light, it's just likelesson plans, ink.
And so one yeah, it's gonna bereally interesting to me to see
(27:05):
in the next seasons, right Like,how that character develops as
a teacher would develop.
Right, like, yeah, cause Janinehas no boundary, like there's
no boundary, and I'm gonna, like, raise my hand.
Actually, let me raise my lefthand.
Leftist activists in LatinAmerica said that you always
deal with your left hand, causethat's where your heart is.
(27:27):
I'm gonna say, like you know,boundary setting is one of the
hardest parts for me as aneducator, 17 years in, you know.
Because, yeah, like, yeah,boundary setting.
I think it's so deep thatthat's a theme that we can see
(27:48):
at the very beginning.
But I agree with you, like, Iwanna see the scene, the
director's cut, in which she'slike I'm going home goodbye.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
This isn't about like critiquing production choices
or story choices, but there arelots of ways that that situation
could have been handledhistorically and I think you
know what she ends up doing is aright choice, but like that's
not the only way that that couldhave happened.
The other thing that you knowis at play here is the dynamic
that's going on between Barb andher daughter.
(28:22):
Right, like her daughterdecided that like hey, I'm gonna
go spend this time yes, it's onmy work trip with my mom and
her mom is not having it.
Like this is not good enough.
This is just a side thing foryou.
You're not really message and Idon't even approve of what
you're doing for work.
As you were watching thisdynamic play out, what came up
(28:43):
as you were yeah, what came upfor you?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know, I am one of the lucky ones in which my mom
died when I was young but, likemy dad really, really, really
rocked with me.
It was a really hard decisionfor him to allow me to be a
musician as opposed to being abusinessman, which is what he
really wanted for me.
Hi dad, my dad also passed away.
(29:10):
I would have decimated likeevery single business because
I'm a terrible businessman.
So it's good that I didn'tbecome a businessman.
So I'm one of the lucky folkswho, like I, didn't have that
relationship in my ownbackground but I have seen so
many love people in mycommunities, people in my like
teaching communities and myfriendship that have that
(29:31):
relationship with their parentsright, and I also, to be honest,
I see that relationship, thattoxicity in relationship,
happened between teachers andstudents right, where there's
nothing that a student can dothat is good enough to please
you, right.
Yeah, there's nothing and youknow, not everybody, but most
(29:53):
students really wanna pleasetheir teachers.
It's like most students likethey're like yo, I like that's
been my experience.
It's like kids, when kids likeyou, they wanna learn.
But in my own life, like Ialways wanted to please my
elders, not in like a peoplepleaser way, but because you
(30:16):
wanna make happy the people thatlove you and that you love,
right, and so that relationshipwas very complex.
To me it's a little foreignbecause I can't identify myself,
but I can empathize with it andI've seen it play out in other
spaces.
I mean, I just also think thatthere are parts of it, because
(30:40):
of my positionality, that Ican't understand.
You know, like I am not, likeI'm not a very I'm Jewish, but
I'm not a religious person, so Ilike I don't know what it might
feel like to like have a parentthat like really wants you to
be done with the Lord and thatyou end up working in moves.
You know, like I am a white cisLatino.
You know I'm not a black woman,and so there are parts of it
(31:02):
that that scene as I watched, Iit's like I know what that is
right and I see it, and also Isee the complexities, like I
don't want to pass judgment onit, because I also know that
like they're like thegenerations before us.
It just it was a different timeas well, right, like, and so I
(31:26):
always want to be careful whendiscussing themes like there are
across historical timelines,even if it's just like the, the
previous generation, that likeposition, those in the times in
which that was happening.
You know, I think that, like forBarbara, you know, I think,
(31:47):
maybe, like growing up in theseventies and maybe sixties,
like I think that was, thatthat's just how things were.
I'm not saying they were rightor wrong, but so shy or told,
wise like society, wise like I,you know, I think that culture,
really that's just what it was.
(32:08):
So it's a really I would saythat it's, it's a I.
I'm sitting with thosecomplexities of like what am I
feeling?
Like to want to have a daughter, to be something, and then your
daughter is completely else andyou have no way of affecting
that.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, and, you know, not necessarily asking you to
put yourself in the shoes of,like two black women, but think,
even thinking about thedynamics of like building,
strengthening, repairingrelationships, right, barbara
and her daughter, taylor, havelike a strange relationship
because of the seeming lack ofshared values and ways that they
(32:46):
agree that, like Taylor shouldbe living her life.
And that's, if those values aresomething that you want to
stand on, to the point ofcutting somebody out of your
life or like ridiculing them or,you know, expressing this
pleasure for them and not livingup to those things like cool,
stand on those.
And if you value therelationship above everything
(33:07):
else, what are the things withinthe context of your
relationship that you're willingto concede?
What are the values that youare willing to I wouldn't even
say compromise, but like maybetolerate from somebody else.
Like you don't have to believewhat I believe for me to love
you, right, you don't have to dothe things that I want you to
do in the world for me to loveyou, right, and I'm speaking as
the parent of, you know, a very,very young one, but I'm also
(33:29):
speaking as the son of parentswho believe very different
things about the world, right,and, like I know, within the
context of our relationship, wedon't see eye to eye about a lot
of things in the world, butthere is love and acceptance
from my parents and support fromin a lot of different ways.
Similar to you, my parents maybe questioned some of the things
(33:52):
that I did, but it was neverlike this disapproval or shaming
, for you know, living my life,doing the work that I wanted to
do, whether this is a parent,child, student, teacher or, you
know, whoever it is in your lifewhere we have these
expectations of people that justaren't being met.
Like I think it's reallyimportant for us to think about
(34:12):
what's more important our valueor the thing that we wanna see
happen in the world, or therelationship with the person in
front of us?
And, you know, if it's therelationship, we gotta meet
people where they're at.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, I guess hearing you say this like is really
making me think about.
There's also layers right,especially between relationships
between, like parents andoffspring, uncles, aunts, like
familiar relationship likekinship.
There's also layers right Like.
One of the things that Iappreciate it is like Taylor and
(34:45):
Barbara.
They're still in relationship.
It's a complicated relationshipfull of rubs right Like, but
they're still in relationshipLike Taylor is still coming,
barbara is not like no, you'renot coming to my job.
Like I'm not seeing you.
If you don't spend three dayswith me, don't come.
And there's so many folks whodon't have that right.
(35:08):
There's so many folks who havebeen either have to cut off
their families or their familieshave cut them off.
You know, I have some familymembers that I don't rock with
politically at all and I havesome of those in which you know
what.
We can go and spend Passovertogether and be like cool, nice,
(35:29):
hey, nice to see the kids, allgood.
But then I have some otherfamily members that I really
can't do that because theirdisagreements are either like
denying or putting my or my love, people's safety in danger.
Like James Baldwin says, likethey're like really like denying
(35:52):
my humanity or my people'shumanity.
So I think that it's also layers, right.
I think that unfortunately andI think that that's just one of
the truths of the world is that,like, sometimes conflicts don't
have a resolution.
There's some conflicts in theworld that just like we have to
sit with and we have to justlearn to live with that pain.
But the relationship betweenBarbara and Taylor gives me hope
(36:18):
.
I wanna see kinda how itdevelops, because it's a very
common relationship rub to have,right.
And yeah, although their valuesdon't seem to be aligning some
things, they also have thatconnection.
They're both of both open tokeep exploring it or keep
struggling together, right.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Like yeah Within the context of this relationship.
This isn't about like theworthiness of human life or the
validity of someone's personhoodright.
It is about faith and likecareer choices.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And right, and you know, spend more time with your
mom, which, like, is somethingthat is a little less difficult
to navigate than you know.
Maybe some of the likepolitically charged issues of
our day, which you know we'renot gonna get into right now,
yeah, yeah but within thecontext of you know what most of
us are navigating on theeveryday, like.
(37:16):
We do have those relationshipswhere there's not 100% alignment
and you know the relationshipis more important.
We do have like some level offoundation of relationship
that's there and the way to moveforward is meeting people where
they're at, even if it's notnecessarily 100% where you are,
and you know, hoping forcontinued connection, hoping for
(37:36):
continued relationships so youcan continue to build, which you
know, in the case of this, doeshappen.
But we won't get to that untilfuture episodes.
As we said, there were lots ofother things that were going on
on this episode that we're notnecessarily gonna tie up, but I
did wanna highlight, you know,jeanine and Barbara coming back
together.
At the end We'll be waiting.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Maybe there won't be.
I mean, I know I'm hungry.
Have a good night and be safe.
Bye, I'll pick you, I'll pickyou, okay.
Okay, well, looks like yourwork mom is free.
How about dinner?
Is this really happening?
Okay, sorry, black all Jeanine,I would love that.
(38:21):
Come on, okay.
So how did the conversation gowith the parent?
Oh, you know what?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
It's surprisingly well, you know, jeanine trying
to continue to get into Barb'sgood graces as a mentee and
surrogate daughter.
But you know, as you saw themwrap up that part of the story,
what was in mind for you.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
So that actually was a part that really hit me the
hardest.
I don't wanna speak for otherpeople, but for me I have had
this happen to me and also I'veseen it in different iterations
in schooling where I have hadeither students or younger
teachers really, really, reallyI don't wanna say like push
(39:10):
themselves onto like a menteerelationship with me or with
other people that I've seen.
But I've also been that personwho has like been oh my gosh,
like I.
Really the thing that I wantthe most in my life is to be
loved by you and be mentored byyou, and I've been lucky enough
(39:30):
to have that relationship withstudents in which I'm a mentor,
and also with old coworkers andall educators in which they
mentor me, and I even think thatmy students mentor me, like we
have a dual relationship right,like this mentorship earlier in
our year and now we're talkingabout like, this idea of like
yeah, I mean Jeanine is superpushy with like, please love me,
(39:53):
please mentor me.
I wanna be your school mother,your school daughter.
I'm your school daughter andBarbara is sort of like, oh,
like a cat, you know, like comeon, but having been like coming
from a tradition of like jazzmusicians.
Like one of my old mentors, likea jazz drummer, he was the kind
(40:14):
of person that he would do thislike not mean things, but like
pretty harsh and pretty.
Like no, no, no.
Like he put all theseboundaries Like if I didn't
practice enough to his liking,he'd like send me home like five
minutes into the lesson and Ihad to like walk for like an
hour and 15 minutes because Ididn't have a car.
(40:34):
He'd be like, come back whenyou practice again, and then the
next week I will come and he'llbe like, great, you practice or
whatever, and then we'd havelike a three hour long lesson as
opposed to an hour.
And so then coming backtogether where Barbara is like,
say, let's go to dinner, to meis like I read that as like
(40:54):
Barbara's into it.
Barbara is into that mentorshiprelationship, even though, like
I think for most of the timeit's like this is too much or
like you're doing too much oryou know, putting all these like
old school boundaries and yeah.
So that was really a beautifulway of ending that episode,
(41:18):
bringing closure, but also it'sI think it's a very real way.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I have seen that play out you know, yeah, I mean, and
this is a continuing evolvingrelationship between the two of
them and, you know, over thecourse of the rest of the season
going on into next, we see, youknow, the way that Barbara
grows, the way that like thisactually does in some ways serve
a need for Barbara.
(41:43):
I think this does just speak tothe like ever growing, the
evolving relationship thatpeople have within the context
of their relationships, eitherwith coworkers or people in
their lives.
Right, having connected onsomething that was vulnerable
like this is a point of like hey, we can, we're on another level
, we understand each other in adeeper way, and it just leads to
(42:05):
more opportunities to connectand grow the relationship.
Right, while Barbara might nothave the daughter of her dreams,
jeanine is feeling like somekind of need in that area, like
where she feels wanted, and I'mnot putting a value judgment on
that, it's just, you know,people meeting each other where
(42:28):
they're at, in efforts to againbuild strength in and repair,
when necessary, relationships.
Ooh, so much good in thisepisode.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Abba Elementary.
Join us for a live event onMonday, july 31st.
(42:51):
Link with more info in thedescription.
Just want to get to some of thequick questions that everyone
answers when they come on thispodcast.
If you were to be cast as acharacter on Abba Elementary,
what role would you want to playor who would you want to be at
the school?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Can it be a new character?
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, you know, it would just have to be a version
of, like Jack Black's likeSchool of Rock, like I mean, it
would just have to be like a weare going like we're going to
tear it down, we're going to go,and you know like it'll have to
be that like high energy, likerock and roll, like free improv,
like wild music teacher who'salso just like a pocket full of
(43:34):
snacks for everybody, like beinglike, you know, like the
classes and the place to likereally like, like that.
I think that one.
Yeah, it would just be like thelet's have fun all the time,
let's learn, let's connect witheach other.
Let's also like talk about somereal things.
I think that my character hasalready been written and I think
(43:57):
Jack Black is it.
I can imagine a character likethat playing well in Abba
Elementary and you know, in theend of episode 10, we see Abba's
beat maker machine and DJ board.
So you know it can get somemore use.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Farron, Farron, beautiful.
Thank you so much, Martine, forbeing here.
How can people support you andyour work in the ways that you
want to be supported?
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
And, yeah, thanks for having me Ways in which I'd be
contacted and supported.
My website is martineurbachcom.
I also facilitate a group ofyouth restorative justice
practitioners and leaders andwe're called the Circle Keepers.
You can reach us atthecirclekeeperscom.
Our Instagrams are the CircleKeepers.
(44:52):
My own Instagram is atLiberation Drumps and I have a
link tree where you can get alot of different resources they
you can also donate to supportyouth programming in social
justice and restorative justiceand that is link tree.
I think it is linktree slashCircle Keepers.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Beautiful, and all that will be linked up again.
Thank you so much for being onrestorative justice reflections.
We'll be back very soonbreaking down episode 11 of Abba
, Elementary season one.
Can't wait until then.
Take care.
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