July 25, 2023 • 25 mins
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How can you use Restorative Justice in navigating personal & professional life as a queer educator, creating space for dialogue when students misbehave? Find out on this episode of Restorative Justice Reflections!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:56):
I'm David, ryan, barsega, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Ace Schwartz to dive deep
into the restorative themes orlack thereof Found in season one
, episode 11 of ABC's AbbaElementary Desking.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we will
highlight how Restored ofJustice could apply to
(01:17):
situations like creating spacefor student dialogue when
there's misbehavior andnavigating personal and
professional life as a queereducator.
Hopefully this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying Restored of
Justice to your life, join ourinner circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
(01:38):
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, the links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it, ace.
Welcome to Restored of JusticeReflections.
So glad to have you Tell usabout your journey with
education.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Hello, abba Cumans, including David.
So I'm Ace, my friends andthey're them and I am a middle
school science teacher.
Have been for eight years nowand I wasn't supposed to be a
science teacher.
I was supposed to take over mydad's business and it was a soda
company and then got a chanceto teach Sunday school at church
(02:19):
and that was very life changing.
Went into education instead,taught for five years in public
school and I transitioned Verynegative experience after I came
out and transitioned asnon-binary, so I left that
school and now I'm three yearsinto another school and I'm
really, really happy.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, questions abound, right.
What was it about teachingSunday school?
That was like teaching us.
For me.
Instruction is for me.
Kids, working with kids is forme.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I just really was like looking forward to going to
church every Sundayspecifically to be with the kids
, not so much for the otherstuff, but I really enjoyed
teaching kids and having themrepeat things back to me later
that they learned.
Like it was like, oh my gosh, Idid that, like I said things
and taught things and these kidslearned something and that's
(03:12):
really cool.
It was a cool feeling.
And I taught preschool.
It's in church, but I teachmiddle school and I really still
, to this day, do you not knowwhy I didn't go into elementary
yet and why I specificallyfocused on middle ed?
But I'm very happy, middleschool is my jam, 100%.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Right.
A lot of people are like, oh mygosh, it's such a challenging
age, but you know why was itmiddle school for you?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think, because some of my most pivotal years,
identity wise, were middleschool and I, my gender identity
and teaching are kind of tiedtogether in a way.
Like I've known, I was not thegender assigned at birth, since
I was like six years old and myparents didn't understand it.
It was the late 90s, early2000s.
There just wasn't the educationthere is today, and so I had to
(04:00):
kind of push all that stuffdown.
And middle school was soconfusing, because that's a time
when you're supposed to haveyour, you're starting to come
into your identity and figureout who you are as a human, and
I was just so confused and Iremember having teachers who
were awesome, but I felt likethey didn't totally understand
me as a whole person, and that'swhat I wanted to do differently
(04:23):
.
I wanted to be the middleschool teacher that I never
really had and also be the queerteacher that I wish I had had
in middle school.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm often someone who is saying, like representation,
yeah, but representation isn'teverything.
Can you explain whatrepresentation or seeing
yourself would have meant foryou as a young person growing up
?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh, I think the big thing is just knowing that how I
was feeling was normal andthere were other people who felt
like me because I felt so aloneand it would have been really
nice to know that I could makeit to adulthood and be this
thriving adult.
That would have been huge.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, queer representation in media hasn't
always been the way that, likewe would have wanted it to be
right.
A lot of times queer charactersare just there for
entertainment, as an outlier oras something to be, as something
, someone to be made fun of.
Right here in Abbott we have aqueer character who's, you know,
biggest flaw is their maybeoverall, overall performative
(05:23):
wokeness.
But you know, that is why it'sit's so important to have this
kind of representation where,like, queer people can be a
multitude of things and queerpeople aren't Worthy of being
demonized, but they're also notlike perfect either, like full
human beings.
And you know, I know that's oneof the reasons you wanted to
talk about this episode, desking.
(05:43):
So let's get into it.
Episode summary, courtesy ofWikipedia.
In episode 11, season 1 ofAbbott, elementary desking, we
have students running from oneside of the room to the other,
jumping on desks, recording itand posting it to tiktok.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
These videos are everywhere.
Mr Ron Snow, bit West Adamselementary, said he's been
cleaning desks for weeks.
Oh my god, there's hundreds ofthese.
This is horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And it's become a popular trend across schools in
the nation and Abbott elementary.
So much to unpack here.
Um, where do you want to start?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Oh my gosh.
Um, I just have to say when youasked me what my favorite
episode was, I specificallychose this one, not for the
desking themes I'll be so realwith you but because of the way
we get to meet Jacob's boyfriend.
I think that was just fantasticand I love how he holds Jacob
accountable all adult sneaker.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It increases the make and model options significantly
, so smart.
We came in third at trivianight last week over at Oscars,
you know, done by written house.
We were eliminated on atechnicality, but Sri Lanka
honey, you didn't know where'sthe story going.
Are we focusing on the task athand?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And that was just like such a like a bit of an rj
vibe for me, restorative justicevibe, so that was my reason for
picking it.
But let's start with likeDesking as the trend, I guess,
like how the students think ofit versus how the teachers think
of it, because I think that'sthe whole Conflict of the
episode, right, like the kidssee it as this really cool Trend
(07:25):
and the adults are like no,this is dangerous and also we
don't want shoe prints on ourdesks.
Like that makes more work forall of us.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Right, right, and I think you know it's really
important to think about.
You know, when we're thinkingabout a problem With a
restorative lens, like whathappened, who's impacted and how
, and what are the needs thatneed to be a distance in order
to make things Right, like lotsof people are impacted,
potentially right, when you'rethinking about, you know,
students desking.
Fortunately, within the contextof this episode, no students
(07:55):
are like injured, right, but itdoes create more work for mr
Johnson.
It is work for the teachers whoare worried about the safety
and well-being of their students.
It's also, you know, apparentCommunication issue that might
need to happen if, when thesestudents are Approach to get to
the bottom of all this.
(08:15):
We don't necessarily see that inthis episode, but that could be
something that could happen andthese students, right, like
these students are participatingin viral trend, like looking
for clout, essentially right,acceptance, belonging With their
peer group, and so, you know,with all of these needs, right,
somebody needing to like, notcreate, like, not more, less
(08:37):
work for mr Johnson, likeAssurance of safety, physical
safety of students, for teachersand their the students,
caregivers and parents, families, and like the sense of
belonging and respect among thestudents, like there are a lot
of things that need to beaddressed here and, like we
don't necessarily get to arestorative solution at the end
(09:02):
of this episode Um, you know,jacob is filmed.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Whoa, these were in the honeydew's veins.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Oh, abbot, ultimate desking challenge done teacher
style.
Is that mrC Deskins deaded,making it seem uncool to the
kids and like, maybe that solveslike what was going on on top
of the iceberg, if you will,with this problem, like students
(09:31):
are no longer desking, but likeall of those underlying needs
aren't necessarily being met.
As you were watching thisepisode and thinking through
like how to restorativelyapproach a problem like this,
what came up for you?
Because, like these arestudents, you are like very
close to the age of the kidsthat you're working with every
single day.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, I was really struck by the scene where
Melissa and Ava are and thenJeanine and Jacob are splitting
up the two kids that they knoware involved.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Look, Stefan, I get it.
I was a kid once.
But you and I both know this isgonna end, and when it does,
you don't wanna be the one leftholding the bag Sometimes.
Sometimes the right thing isfun, so why don't you tell us
who started this and who's doingit?
You know, doesn't that soundfun?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The kids don't confess, right, because why
would they?
I think I was struck by theimmediacy of the punitive
measures, of that scene, likethey weren't really trying to
have a dialogue with the kids.
They were making it seem likethey were Like if you rat on
your friend, right, you won'tget in trouble, but we need to
know who's doing this.
We need to, like you know, justput an end to this Without
(10:45):
actually talking to the kidsabout why they were doing it.
That just like really struck me, because I was like to me that
would be my first question Likewhy are you desking?
Like what is cool about it?
Like explain this to me,because what I know as a 30 year
old is very different from whata younger person would right.
(11:08):
Like the logic is different,and so you can work with logic
and you can, you know, talk tologic, but you can't just go
right in with the attack.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, it's a really good representation of how, like
even well-intentioned teacherslike Janine and Jacob, who are
like woke, liberal, progressivewhatever word you want to use
Like within the context of aschool system, like really fall
back on tropes of policing andthe carceral state right, like
good cop, bad cop, right Rat onyour friend, so like you won't
get punished, right, and aren'treally trying to get to the root
(11:42):
causes of the problems.
They're also like superpaternalistic and like, oh, I
know what's going on, like Iknow better, and like this is
something that we've seen fromJanine, especially across the
season.
Right, where, like she thinksshe knows best and oftentimes
like I think as adults we doknow what's best in a situation.
But to not take the time tobuild relationship with those
students, like that all thatgoes.
(12:04):
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care.
If you're not taking the time tobuild relationships, not
necessarily as like equals,because we are still working
within like the hierarchy of aschool and we are working with
people who are less experiencedin life than us, like we do have
more knowledge, but we've gotto take the time to build a
relationship so people willactually listen to the things
(12:26):
that we have to say.
Instead, what we have is right,you don't really repair the
relationship or meet the needsof the students.
You've just solved the problemof like, all right, well, the
kids aren't running across thedesk anymore and, yeah, mr
Johnson doesn't have to dealwith that, and you know, I guess
that's fine For the purposes ofthe episode.
It wraps up a narrative prettywell, but thinking about the
relationships that Janine andJacob and Ava and everyone will
(12:50):
have with those students movingforward, it's like what did we
solve here?
What did we actually do?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, and like in the very beginning of the episode,
Janine and Jacob were gettingcompliments from kids.
Hey, that's a nice sweater.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Thank you, Miles.
Wow a compliment.
And it wasn't a setup for apunchline, no, I was waiting for
a nice sweater.
Didn't know Bert and Ernie hada yard sale, but the kids have
actually been really cool latelyand like excited to learn.
Yeah, no same, no misbehaving,the grades are up and I'm
getting flowers apparently Likeare we awake?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
And both of them were saying, oh, they respect us so
much and we're completelyshocked when the kids were
desking, like how could they dothat?
They don't like they respect us, and I don't know that it's
about respect, because I think,you know, it's totally possible
for the kids to respect folksand still do things that don't
align with that right.
(13:46):
Like how we view respect asadults and how kids view respect
aren't necessarily the same,and they were more hurt by the
idea that the kids don't respectthem than actually building the
relationship to get thatrespect in a way that makes
sense for both parties.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
And like as you're saying, as I'm thinking, or
really like being concerned forthe kids' safety.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And it's like how do I look in?
You know, I think a lot of thatis just played up, as you know,
characters on a TV show.
But as we're thinking aboutbeing adults in school buildings
, or adults in relationship, orlike people who have authority
over other people in worksituations where you do want to
be liked right, everybody wantsto be liked but within the
(14:29):
context of your job, your role,responsibilities, what does it
look like to build relationships?
So one you can get the thingsthat you need to do done in a
safe, efficient manner, but alsolike be in good relationship
with people so you cancommunicate about conflict or
conflicting ideas, about whatfun, good, safe, wholesome fun
(14:52):
is, or like productive ways ofbeing together are right.
There are so many ways thatthat plays out.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
If you're appreciating this video, like to
help us in the YouTubealgorithm, subscribe so you
won't miss the video, and shareit with someone to help us
further amplify this work.
Now back to the show.
This is one of my favoriteepisodes of Abbott.
You know, especially thinkingthrough a restorative justice
lens because, like that has likea really clear student behavior
conflict that we can addressand identify.
But you know, thinking aboutrestorative themes throughout
(15:23):
the people's relationships youparticipate in the show, right,
and to have this type of queerrepresentation.
So he knew you and was likemore Well, I think he sounds
like a really neat guy, right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Oh yeah, sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Hey, there's my guy Black.
It's actually pronounced Zach.
You must be Eva.
It's a really helpful holisticrepresentation of like who queer
people are and you know, bigups to the show for providing
that kind of representation.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Absolutely, oh my gosh.
Yeah, I absolutely loved seeingJacob and Zach together, not
just hearing like Jacob tellstories about Zach, but seeing
them together interacting likeit was great, because queer
characters, like you said, areoften these one dimensional
stereotypes and it was so niceseeing not that.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean, like the I'm just laughing at, like
the whole sneakerhead aspect ofyou know Zach's character was
like, yeah, I mean that trackslike I know that person, that
person can also be a queerperson, right, like those things
aren't mutually exclusive.
Like oftentimes within thecontext of a show, that person
like might be like an Asian male, like Asian male, like height
(16:38):
beast, like that, like we mightthink of, but to integrate that
with, to have someone be likemore than one thing is really
important representation and youknow, again, kudos to the show
for showing that we hope to seemore.
I mean, I know that comes backin future episodes and we love,
we love to see it integrated asjust like, not a second thought
(17:01):
that teachers are going to shareabout their personal lives with
their colleagues and theirstudents and not be not be
shamed for it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, definitely, I really appreciated.
I really appreciate Abbottbeing a show that I can relate
to so much because it's teachingand so, even though it's very
exaggerated, like I see myteaching experience reflected in
the show.
And it was also really greatthat they really intentionally
included a queer storyline andqueer characters, because right
(17:34):
now the climate for queerteachers is not great Just the
anti LGBTQ plus legislation andso to have a positive
representation amidst a worldthat feels like it's trying to
dull our sparkle right in a waylike that was horrible.
Hang on, having thisrepresentation in a world that
(17:57):
is constantly trying to silenceus or, you know, shake our
confidence, prevent us frombeing the educators that we are
right, queer is one part of ouridentity.
We're also teachers, and reallygood teachers too, and I think
it's so important to just keephaving that representation and
keep pushing back against.
(18:18):
You know what is truly a smallpercentage of the population.
They're just very, very loud.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
The staff and the characters that I've elementary
are limited by, you know, 22minutes of an episode, but they
are also people who are livingin a version of the real world,
where people who are teachershave limited time and resources
to engage in all the things thatthey want to do during the work
day, right, and so one of thethings that I'm thinking about a
(18:46):
lot when we're thinking abouthaving these restorative
conversations or restorativeprocesses is when do Janine and
Jacob have time?
When would Janine and Jacobhave had time to really sit down
and have these kind ofconversations with these
students?
Or, if not Janine and Jacob,who are the other people in
school?
Obviously, ava's, notnecessarily the person we want
(19:07):
to be referring them to.
But when we're thinking about,like, putting in these practices
and bringing these ways ofbeing into our school context,
it's really important for us tothink about the spaces that we
can create to make sure thatthese conversations can happen
and we can follow up on them.
Right, and it's not just like,hey, send them to Ava's office,
we'll get to that in season two.
It's not just send them toAva's office and hope the
(19:30):
problem is solved, but like, hey, let's come to these agreements
about how we're going to engagewith school property.
Right, how are we going to besafe and, like, who's going to
follow up with that?
And how are we going tocommunicate that back with the
teachers who have been impactedby that?
Right, and who are the peoplewho are going to follow up on
that?
Creating the time to do that,creating the structures to make
(19:54):
sure that people have theavailability of the structures,
to make sure that people arecommunicated with, is something
that is challenging, right?
I'm curious in your experienceas a person who is actively
teaching but also dealing withstudent behavior.
What has worked for you?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, and I think you really hit it when you talked
about systems and structures,because I can do what I do in my
classroom, but unless it's apriority for the larger
administration and the other bigstakeholders at school, it's
not going to be this consistenttransfer across the entire
school, right?
(20:34):
And so if it's not a priority,then Jeanette and Jacob can sit
down and do all that work.
I can do all that work and alsothe impact of that work is
going to be pretty limited,right, that sphere of influence
is going to be pretty limited,but at the same time, I have to
start somewhere, right.
(20:55):
So I start in my classroom andit's honestly day one, just
getting to know students andbuilding that relationship,
getting to know about theirlives outside of school and then
co-creating a community withthem.
Right, like it's not myclassroom, it's our classroom,
and what do students want to seein this classroom?
(21:17):
And getting feedback andletting kids be honest about how
the school year is going, whatI'm doing well and what they
wish I was doing differentlybeing constant communication
with students that's not justinvolved in classwork, I think
is really, really important, andthat stuff you can do on an
individual level, theencouraging and pushing admin
for more structural support.
(21:39):
That's like the level two, Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and like, beyond the purview of Ace the
Science teacher, right, and whenwe think about doing this work
right, and when I think aboutlike viewing this work from an
outsider, right.
You know, just before this, youand I were talking about like,
are we spreading seeds andhoping for growth or are we
actually actually likecultivating garden, where you
know restorative justice as aplant, like can flourish and
(22:03):
grow?
Right, eliminating weeds, likeproviding adequate sunlight and
water, right, providing time andspace for people to practice,
grow and what's inherent topractice and growing is like
messing up and like gettingsupport then to correct and make
things better.
But you know that's theinvitation for individuals who
(22:25):
are working in school, as wellas school leaders, to help you,
yes, learn these practices asindividuals, but make the time
and build the structuralcapacity for people to really
practice this way of being.
Whew, so much within thecontext of this episode.
I know we could spend lots moretime like going into, like the
(22:46):
little nuances of the thingsthat came up from desk-ing.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom ABA Elementary.
Join us for a live event onMonday, july 31st.
Link with more info in thedescription.
But I want to transition tosome fun questions.
(23:08):
If you were to be cast on ABAElementary as a new character,
who would you be or what rolewould you like to play?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Okay, I would, would definitely be on the second
floor.
I can't handle the babies.
I admire people who can handlethe younger kids.
Put me on the second floor withJacob and I think it would be
so cool.
So I have a dual degree inEnglish and science and I've
(23:37):
only ever taught science, somaybe I'll be an English teacher
and give that a shot.
If I was on ABA Elementarythere's so much you can do with
English and I think just thecomedy of the show that would be
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
What's a storyline that you would like your
character to play?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Okay, definitely openly queer.
I'd love to be non-binary inthe show because why not?
And I would oh gosh, this issuch a good question.
I would be like, see, I feellike in real life I'm kind of
like Jacob in the corny sense,so I don't want my character to
(24:18):
be too corny, but I think I'dwant to be that really cool
teacher that no one I'm like.
My life's a mystery.
They have all these storiesright, like Mr Johnson just
makes you so confused by hislife story.
I'd be the teacher that youdon't know anything at all and
there's just like all theseguesses, kind of like Rosadillas
on Brooklyn Nine Nine, I'd belike I would be like that.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Gotcha, Gotcha.
Oh my goodness.
So much wisdom, so many laughs.
It was such a good time.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
What are the ways that peoplecan support you and your work in
the ways that you want to besupported?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
You can find me on Instagram atteaching outside the binary.
I have a website of the samename and I have tons of
resources and things like thatfor inclusion, specifically
LGBTQ, plus inclusion in theclassroom.
If you want to support my workeven more, my best friend, sky,
and I have a Patreon growingoutside the binary and you can
(25:14):
support our work financiallythere, but I'm really proud of
the community that we've builton Instagram and Patreon, so we
hope that you'll join us.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Beautiful, beautiful and all of those things, of
course, linked below, inaddition to all the ways that
you can get connected to thesort of Amplify RJ community and
all the ways that you can learnmore about restorative justice
as a way of being and even inthe context of schools or the
workplace.
But for now, this is the end ofthis episode of restorative
justice reflections.
We'll be back soon with anotherepisode diving deep into
(25:46):
episode 12 of season one of AvaElementary, but until then, take
care.
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:56):
I'm David, ryan, barsega, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Ace Schwartz to dive deep
into the restorative themes orlack thereof Found in season one
, episode 11 of ABC's AbbaElementary Desking.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we will
highlight how Restored ofJustice could apply to
(01:17):
situations like creating spacefor student dialogue when
there's misbehavior andnavigating personal and
professional life as a queereducator.
Hopefully this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying Restored of
Justice to your life, join ourinner circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
(01:38):
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, the links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it, ace.
Welcome to Restored of JusticeReflections.
So glad to have you Tell usabout your journey with
education.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Hello, abba Cumans, including David.
So I'm Ace, my friends andthey're them and I am a middle
school science teacher.
Have been for eight years nowand I wasn't supposed to be a
science teacher.
I was supposed to take over mydad's business and it was a soda
company and then got a chanceto teach Sunday school at church
(02:19):
and that was very life changing.
Went into education instead,taught for five years in public
school and I transitioned Verynegative experience after I came
out and transitioned asnon-binary, so I left that
school and now I'm three yearsinto another school and I'm
really, really happy.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, questions abound, right.
What was it about teachingSunday school?
That was like teaching us.
For me.
Instruction is for me.
Kids, working with kids is forme.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I just really was like looking forward to going to
church every Sundayspecifically to be with the kids
, not so much for the otherstuff, but I really enjoyed
teaching kids and having themrepeat things back to me later
that they learned.
Like it was like, oh my gosh, Idid that, like I said things
and taught things and these kidslearned something and that's
(03:12):
really cool.
It was a cool feeling.
And I taught preschool.
It's in church, but I teachmiddle school and I really still
, to this day, do you not knowwhy I didn't go into elementary
yet and why I specificallyfocused on middle ed?
But I'm very happy, middleschool is my jam, 100%.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Right.
A lot of people are like, oh mygosh, it's such a challenging
age, but you know why was itmiddle school for you?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think, because some of my most pivotal years,
identity wise, were middleschool and I, my gender identity
and teaching are kind of tiedtogether in a way.
Like I've known, I was not thegender assigned at birth, since
I was like six years old and myparents didn't understand it.
It was the late 90s, early2000s.
There just wasn't the educationthere is today, and so I had to
(04:00):
kind of push all that stuffdown.
And middle school was soconfusing, because that's a time
when you're supposed to haveyour, you're starting to come
into your identity and figureout who you are as a human, and
I was just so confused and Iremember having teachers who
were awesome, but I felt likethey didn't totally understand
me as a whole person, and that'swhat I wanted to do differently
(04:23):
.
I wanted to be the middleschool teacher that I never
really had and also be the queerteacher that I wish I had had
in middle school.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm often someone who is saying, like representation,
yeah, but representation isn'teverything.
Can you explain whatrepresentation or seeing
yourself would have meant foryou as a young person growing up
?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh, I think the big thing is just knowing that how I
was feeling was normal andthere were other people who felt
like me because I felt so aloneand it would have been really
nice to know that I could makeit to adulthood and be this
thriving adult.
That would have been huge.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, queer representation in media hasn't
always been the way that, likewe would have wanted it to be
right.
A lot of times queer charactersare just there for
entertainment, as an outlier oras something to be, as something
, someone to be made fun of.
Right here in Abbott we have aqueer character who's, you know,
biggest flaw is their maybeoverall, overall performative
(05:23):
wokeness.
But you know, that is why it'sit's so important to have this
kind of representation where,like, queer people can be a
multitude of things and queerpeople aren't Worthy of being
demonized, but they're also notlike perfect either, like full
human beings.
And you know, I know that's oneof the reasons you wanted to
talk about this episode, desking.
(05:43):
So let's get into it.
Episode summary, courtesy ofWikipedia.
In episode 11, season 1 ofAbbott, elementary desking, we
have students running from oneside of the room to the other,
jumping on desks, recording itand posting it to tiktok.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
These videos are everywhere.
Mr Ron Snow, bit West Adamselementary, said he's been
cleaning desks for weeks.
Oh my god, there's hundreds ofthese.
This is horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And it's become a popular trend across schools in
the nation and Abbott elementary.
So much to unpack here.
Um, where do you want to start?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Oh my gosh.
Um, I just have to say when youasked me what my favorite
episode was, I specificallychose this one, not for the
desking themes I'll be so realwith you but because of the way
we get to meet Jacob's boyfriend.
I think that was just fantasticand I love how he holds Jacob
accountable all adult sneaker.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It increases the make and model options significantly
, so smart.
We came in third at trivianight last week over at Oscars,
you know, done by written house.
We were eliminated on atechnicality, but Sri Lanka
honey, you didn't know where'sthe story going.
Are we focusing on the task athand?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And that was just like such a like a bit of an rj
vibe for me, restorative justicevibe, so that was my reason for
picking it.
But let's start with likeDesking as the trend, I guess,
like how the students think ofit versus how the teachers think
of it, because I think that'sthe whole Conflict of the
episode, right, like the kidssee it as this really cool Trend
(07:25):
and the adults are like no,this is dangerous and also we
don't want shoe prints on ourdesks.
Like that makes more work forall of us.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Right, right, and I think you know it's really
important to think about.
You know, when we're thinkingabout a problem With a
restorative lens, like whathappened, who's impacted and how
, and what are the needs thatneed to be a distance in order
to make things Right, like lotsof people are impacted,
potentially right, when you'rethinking about, you know,
students desking.
Fortunately, within the contextof this episode, no students
(07:55):
are like injured, right, but itdoes create more work for mr
Johnson.
It is work for the teachers whoare worried about the safety
and well-being of their students.
It's also, you know, apparentCommunication issue that might
need to happen if, when thesestudents are Approach to get to
the bottom of all this.
(08:15):
We don't necessarily see that inthis episode, but that could be
something that could happen andthese students, right, like
these students are participatingin viral trend, like looking
for clout, essentially right,acceptance, belonging With their
peer group, and so, you know,with all of these needs, right,
somebody needing to like, notcreate, like, not more, less
(08:37):
work for mr Johnson, likeAssurance of safety, physical
safety of students, for teachersand their the students,
caregivers and parents, families, and like the sense of
belonging and respect among thestudents, like there are a lot
of things that need to beaddressed here and, like we
don't necessarily get to arestorative solution at the end
(09:02):
of this episode Um, you know,jacob is filmed.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Whoa, these were in the honeydew's veins.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Oh, abbot, ultimate desking challenge done teacher
style.
Is that mrC Deskins deaded,making it seem uncool to the
kids and like, maybe that solveslike what was going on on top
of the iceberg, if you will,with this problem, like students
(09:31):
are no longer desking, but likeall of those underlying needs
aren't necessarily being met.
As you were watching thisepisode and thinking through
like how to restorativelyapproach a problem like this,
what came up for you?
Because, like these arestudents, you are like very
close to the age of the kidsthat you're working with every
single day.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, I was really struck by the scene where
Melissa and Ava are and thenJeanine and Jacob are splitting
up the two kids that they knoware involved.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Look, Stefan, I get it.
I was a kid once.
But you and I both know this isgonna end, and when it does,
you don't wanna be the one leftholding the bag Sometimes.
Sometimes the right thing isfun, so why don't you tell us
who started this and who's doingit?
You know, doesn't that soundfun?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The kids don't confess, right, because why
would they?
I think I was struck by theimmediacy of the punitive
measures, of that scene, likethey weren't really trying to
have a dialogue with the kids.
They were making it seem likethey were Like if you rat on
your friend, right, you won'tget in trouble, but we need to
know who's doing this.
We need to, like you know, justput an end to this Without
(10:45):
actually talking to the kidsabout why they were doing it.
That just like really struck me, because I was like to me that
would be my first question Likewhy are you desking?
Like what is cool about it?
Like explain this to me,because what I know as a 30 year
old is very different from whata younger person would right.
(11:08):
Like the logic is different,and so you can work with logic
and you can, you know, talk tologic, but you can't just go
right in with the attack.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, it's a really good representation of how, like
even well-intentioned teacherslike Janine and Jacob, who are
like woke, liberal, progressivewhatever word you want to use
Like within the context of aschool system, like really fall
back on tropes of policing andthe carceral state right, like
good cop, bad cop, right Rat onyour friend, so like you won't
get punished, right, and aren'treally trying to get to the root
(11:42):
causes of the problems.
They're also like superpaternalistic and like, oh, I
know what's going on, like Iknow better, and like this is
something that we've seen fromJanine, especially across the
season.
Right, where, like she thinksshe knows best and oftentimes
like I think as adults we doknow what's best in a situation.
But to not take the time tobuild relationship with those
students, like that all thatgoes.
(12:04):
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care.
If you're not taking the time tobuild relationships, not
necessarily as like equals,because we are still working
within like the hierarchy of aschool and we are working with
people who are less experiencedin life than us, like we do have
more knowledge, but we've gotto take the time to build a
relationship so people willactually listen to the things
(12:26):
that we have to say.
Instead, what we have is right,you don't really repair the
relationship or meet the needsof the students.
You've just solved the problemof like, all right, well, the
kids aren't running across thedesk anymore and, yeah, mr
Johnson doesn't have to dealwith that, and you know, I guess
that's fine For the purposes ofthe episode.
It wraps up a narrative prettywell, but thinking about the
relationships that Janine andJacob and Ava and everyone will
(12:50):
have with those students movingforward, it's like what did we
solve here?
What did we actually do?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, and like in the very beginning of the episode,
Janine and Jacob were gettingcompliments from kids.
Hey, that's a nice sweater.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Thank you, Miles.
Wow a compliment.
And it wasn't a setup for apunchline, no, I was waiting for
a nice sweater.
Didn't know Bert and Ernie hada yard sale, but the kids have
actually been really cool latelyand like excited to learn.
Yeah, no same, no misbehaving,the grades are up and I'm
getting flowers apparently Likeare we awake?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
And both of them were saying, oh, they respect us so
much and we're completelyshocked when the kids were
desking, like how could they dothat?
They don't like they respect us, and I don't know that it's
about respect, because I think,you know, it's totally possible
for the kids to respect folksand still do things that don't
align with that right.
(13:46):
Like how we view respect asadults and how kids view respect
aren't necessarily the same,and they were more hurt by the
idea that the kids don't respectthem than actually building the
relationship to get thatrespect in a way that makes
sense for both parties.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
And like as you're saying, as I'm thinking, or
really like being concerned forthe kids' safety.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And it's like how do I look in?
You know, I think a lot of thatis just played up, as you know,
characters on a TV show.
But as we're thinking aboutbeing adults in school buildings
, or adults in relationship, orlike people who have authority
over other people in worksituations where you do want to
be liked right, everybody wantsto be liked but within the
(14:29):
context of your job, your role,responsibilities, what does it
look like to build relationships?
So one you can get the thingsthat you need to do done in a
safe, efficient manner, but alsolike be in good relationship
with people so you cancommunicate about conflict or
conflicting ideas, about whatfun, good, safe, wholesome fun
(14:52):
is, or like productive ways ofbeing together are right.
There are so many ways thatthat plays out.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
If you're appreciating this video, like to
help us in the YouTubealgorithm, subscribe so you
won't miss the video, and shareit with someone to help us
further amplify this work.
Now back to the show.
This is one of my favoriteepisodes of Abbott.
You know, especially thinkingthrough a restorative justice
lens because, like that has likea really clear student behavior
conflict that we can addressand identify.
But you know, thinking aboutrestorative themes throughout
(15:23):
the people's relationships youparticipate in the show, right,
and to have this type of queerrepresentation.
So he knew you and was likemore Well, I think he sounds
like a really neat guy, right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Oh yeah, sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Hey, there's my guy Black.
It's actually pronounced Zach.
You must be Eva.
It's a really helpful holisticrepresentation of like who queer
people are and you know, bigups to the show for providing
that kind of representation.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Absolutely, oh my gosh.
Yeah, I absolutely loved seeingJacob and Zach together, not
just hearing like Jacob tellstories about Zach, but seeing
them together interacting likeit was great, because queer
characters, like you said, areoften these one dimensional
stereotypes and it was so niceseeing not that.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I mean, like the I'm just laughing at, like
the whole sneakerhead aspect ofyou know Zach's character was
like, yeah, I mean that trackslike I know that person, that
person can also be a queerperson, right, like those things
aren't mutually exclusive.
Like oftentimes within thecontext of a show, that person
like might be like an Asian male, like Asian male, like height
(16:38):
beast, like that, like we mightthink of, but to integrate that
with, to have someone be likemore than one thing is really
important representation and youknow, again, kudos to the show
for showing that we hope to seemore.
I mean, I know that comes backin future episodes and we love,
we love to see it integrated asjust like, not a second thought
(17:01):
that teachers are going to shareabout their personal lives with
their colleagues and theirstudents and not be not be
shamed for it.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, definitely, I really appreciated.
I really appreciate Abbottbeing a show that I can relate
to so much because it's teachingand so, even though it's very
exaggerated, like I see myteaching experience reflected in
the show.
And it was also really greatthat they really intentionally
included a queer storyline andqueer characters, because right
(17:34):
now the climate for queerteachers is not great Just the
anti LGBTQ plus legislation andso to have a positive
representation amidst a worldthat feels like it's trying to
dull our sparkle right in a waylike that was horrible.
Hang on, having thisrepresentation in a world that
(17:57):
is constantly trying to silenceus or, you know, shake our
confidence, prevent us frombeing the educators that we are
right, queer is one part of ouridentity.
We're also teachers, and reallygood teachers too, and I think
it's so important to just keephaving that representation and
keep pushing back against.
(18:18):
You know what is truly a smallpercentage of the population.
They're just very, very loud.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
The staff and the characters that I've elementary
are limited by, you know, 22minutes of an episode, but they
are also people who are livingin a version of the real world,
where people who are teachershave limited time and resources
to engage in all the things thatthey want to do during the work
day, right, and so one of thethings that I'm thinking about a
(18:46):
lot when we're thinking abouthaving these restorative
conversations or restorativeprocesses is when do Janine and
Jacob have time?
When would Janine and Jacobhave had time to really sit down
and have these kind ofconversations with these
students?
Or, if not Janine and Jacob,who are the other people in
school?
Obviously, ava's, notnecessarily the person we want
(19:07):
to be referring them to.
But when we're thinking about,like, putting in these practices
and bringing these ways ofbeing into our school context,
it's really important for us tothink about the spaces that we
can create to make sure thatthese conversations can happen
and we can follow up on them.
Right, and it's not just like,hey, send them to Ava's office,
we'll get to that in season two.
It's not just send them toAva's office and hope the
(19:30):
problem is solved, but like, hey, let's come to these agreements
about how we're going to engagewith school property.
Right, how are we going to besafe and, like, who's going to
follow up with that?
And how are we going tocommunicate that back with the
teachers who have been impactedby that?
Right, and who are the peoplewho are going to follow up on
that?
Creating the time to do that,creating the structures to make
(19:54):
sure that people have theavailability of the structures,
to make sure that people arecommunicated with, is something
that is challenging, right?
I'm curious in your experienceas a person who is actively
teaching but also dealing withstudent behavior.
What has worked for you?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, and I think you really hit it when you talked
about systems and structures,because I can do what I do in my
classroom, but unless it's apriority for the larger
administration and the other bigstakeholders at school, it's
not going to be this consistenttransfer across the entire
school, right?
(20:34):
And so if it's not a priority,then Jeanette and Jacob can sit
down and do all that work.
I can do all that work and alsothe impact of that work is
going to be pretty limited,right, that sphere of influence
is going to be pretty limited,but at the same time, I have to
start somewhere, right.
(20:55):
So I start in my classroom andit's honestly day one, just
getting to know students andbuilding that relationship,
getting to know about theirlives outside of school and then
co-creating a community withthem.
Right, like it's not myclassroom, it's our classroom,
and what do students want to seein this classroom?
(21:17):
And getting feedback andletting kids be honest about how
the school year is going, whatI'm doing well and what they
wish I was doing differentlybeing constant communication
with students that's not justinvolved in classwork, I think
is really, really important, andthat stuff you can do on an
individual level, theencouraging and pushing admin
for more structural support.
(21:39):
That's like the level two, Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and like, beyond the purview of Ace the
Science teacher, right, and whenwe think about doing this work
right, and when I think aboutlike viewing this work from an
outsider, right.
You know, just before this, youand I were talking about like,
are we spreading seeds andhoping for growth or are we
actually actually likecultivating garden, where you
know restorative justice as aplant, like can flourish and
(22:03):
grow?
Right, eliminating weeds, likeproviding adequate sunlight and
water, right, providing time andspace for people to practice,
grow and what's inherent topractice and growing is like
messing up and like gettingsupport then to correct and make
things better.
But you know that's theinvitation for individuals who
(22:25):
are working in school, as wellas school leaders, to help you,
yes, learn these practices asindividuals, but make the time
and build the structuralcapacity for people to really
practice this way of being.
Whew, so much within thecontext of this episode.
I know we could spend lots moretime like going into, like the
(22:46):
little nuances of the thingsthat came up from desk-ing.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom ABA Elementary.
Join us for a live event onMonday, july 31st.
Link with more info in thedescription.
But I want to transition tosome fun questions.
(23:08):
If you were to be cast on ABAElementary as a new character,
who would you be or what rolewould you like to play?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Okay, I would, would definitely be on the second
floor.
I can't handle the babies.
I admire people who can handlethe younger kids.
Put me on the second floor withJacob and I think it would be
so cool.
So I have a dual degree inEnglish and science and I've
(23:37):
only ever taught science, somaybe I'll be an English teacher
and give that a shot.
If I was on ABA Elementarythere's so much you can do with
English and I think just thecomedy of the show that would be
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
What's a storyline that you would like your
character to play?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Okay, definitely openly queer.
I'd love to be non-binary inthe show because why not?
And I would oh gosh, this issuch a good question.
I would be like, see, I feellike in real life I'm kind of
like Jacob in the corny sense,so I don't want my character to
(24:18):
be too corny, but I think I'dwant to be that really cool
teacher that no one I'm like.
My life's a mystery.
They have all these storiesright, like Mr Johnson just
makes you so confused by hislife story.
I'd be the teacher that youdon't know anything at all and
there's just like all theseguesses, kind of like Rosadillas
on Brooklyn Nine Nine, I'd belike I would be like that.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Gotcha, Gotcha.
Oh my goodness.
So much wisdom, so many laughs.
It was such a good time.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
What are the ways that peoplecan support you and your work in
the ways that you want to besupported?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
You can find me on Instagram atteaching outside the binary.
I have a website of the samename and I have tons of
resources and things like thatfor inclusion, specifically
LGBTQ, plus inclusion in theclassroom.
If you want to support my workeven more, my best friend, sky,
and I have a Patreon growingoutside the binary and you can
(25:14):
support our work financiallythere, but I'm really proud of
the community that we've builton Instagram and Patreon, so we
hope that you'll join us.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Beautiful, beautiful and all of those things, of
course, linked below, inaddition to all the ways that
you can get connected to thesort of Amplify RJ community and
all the ways that you can learnmore about restorative justice
as a way of being and even inthe context of schools or the
workplace.
But for now, this is the end ofthis episode of restorative
justice reflections.
We'll be back soon with anotherepisode diving deep into
(25:46):
episode 12 of season one of AvaElementary, but until then, take
care.
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