July 16, 2023 • 40 mins
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How can you use Restorative Justice to bring quality arts education, hold power with people instead of over, and more? Find out on this episode of Restorative Justice Reflections!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heyo, david, here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
We're doing the money plateslike we've always done, and
that's the end of the discussion.
Janine, get your girl and tellher to watch out, because you
don't know who you're messingwith.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:48):
I'm David, ryan, barcaga, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Alicia Maneucia-Renek to
dive deep into the restorativethemes, or lack thereof, found
in season one, episode seven ofABC's Abba Elementary Art
Teacher.
As always, our conversation hereis not a critique of the story
or production choices of thecreators, but we will highlight
how Restored of Justice canapply to situations like
bringing quality arts educationinto schools and also
(01:11):
collaborating to hold power withpeople instead of having power
over them.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying Restored of
Justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
(01:31):
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, links to everythingdown below.
Now let's get to it.
Alicia, thank you so much forbeing here.
Introduce yourself in the waythat you want to be known by our
audience.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sure, thanks for having me, david.
This is a really fun idea for apodcast.
So I'm Alicia Manushmurnik.
I am an art educator, communityorganizer, activist in the
equity world, and I lovewatching Abba Elementary.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
You know, and when I was thinking about doing this
podcast as a whole, thinkingabout this episode specifically,
you know, you're anintersection of being an
organizer, activist and being anart educator.
In so many ways, you're theperfect person to be having this
conversation.
So when I reached out, what wasit about this episode that made
(02:26):
you be like, yes, this, let'sdo it on a high level?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
On a high level.
Yeah, just how much of a missedopportunity their approach to
art education is.
You know because when I waswatching it, that's where my
mind goes is what a real tragedy.
A lot of what we see is in artseducation in public schools,
(02:53):
but in this episode inparticular, a lot stood out.
A lot stood out that I thinkrelates to restorative justice
themes.
So it's going to be a good dive.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, and you know we really appreciate Abba
Elementary, not for showing,like this, polyannish version of
schools, of course, like somuch of what they do is
reductive because it's a 21minute sitcom, but like it does
get to highlight a lot of theissues and a lot of the things
that we would like to see changewithin the context of our
schools.
So let's get into the summaryof this episode, the A plot of
courses with the art teacher.
When the school art teacherretires, janine's college friend
(03:28):
Sahar is hired as the school'snew volunteer art teacher.
Sahar and Melissa disagree overthe Peter Rabbit project that
had that Melissa hashistorically been doing, and
although Janine agrees withMelissa, she finds it hard to
turn down Sahar's ideas.
Once Sahar makes an impressiveart piece using the books that
(03:49):
Melissa bought as paper mache,janine finally stands up to her.
In the B plot, which we'll getto later, disappointing the lack
of vegetables in the school'slunches, jacob convinces Barbara
that they should start a schoolgarden, despite having very
little experience doing so, andGregory secretly tends to the
garden so they can make surethat it thrives.
So a lot to unpack here, butlet's start with Sahar and
(04:13):
Janine.
Hey, my friend Sahar isstarting, so when I heard we
needed a new volunteer artteacher, I called my friend
Sahar.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
She's a successful local artist and she's so cool.
Janine, oh my God.
Sahar, oh she French.
Good morning everyone.
I'm Sahar.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
You know, like we know, the landscape of arts in
schools is dire and that's verywell represented here in Abba
Eleanorgy.
But as you were seeing thestoryline play out, what came up
for you?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh God.
So one is like both the teacherwho's retiring and this college
friend that are coming in.
These are both volunteerteachers.
There's no one on staff,there's no one who has an
education background who isteaching art in this school, and
so the kinds of art thatthey're bringing in are not
(05:09):
achieving what quality artseducation can actually do for
kids.
So one it's like underliningthis systemic issue.
I really love Abba Elementaryfor the same reason.
It's like every comedy isactually based on some tragedy,
right, some real tragedy, andthey introduce in a way that's
educating the audience, you know, in this kind of like palatable
(05:32):
, entertaining, loving way.
So in this one, like the, it'sjust so quick, it was so quickly
mentioned that like these areboth volunteers I think is huge.
The way that art is being taughtin, as illustrated by this
project, is not accomplishingthe real goals and outcomes of
(05:59):
quality art set.
And so all jump into what thatreally means and how it relates
to restorative justice.
Art education is an exercise inempathy, right.
It's an opportunity forsocio-emotional learning.
It's an opportunity forstudents to learn critical
problem solving, and all ofthese skills ultimately improve
(06:21):
community, improve relationships, improve our own awareness of
our feelings, our ability tocommunicate those feelings and
even just interpreting a work ofart.
It's like you're practicinglooking at someone else's
communication and interpretingthat and understanding the
emotional undercurrents beneathit.
(06:42):
All of that is really good forsupporting the goals of RJ, but
none of that is happening in thekinds of art we see in this
episode.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, or in a lot of art that is happening across
lots of schools and so when wehave a radical, community-based
artivist come in to do this work, right, she has a very
different set of priorities thanthe second grade teachers have.
Like, hey, let's create cutebunnies so our kids can take
(07:17):
them home and we can havesomething that we can all laugh,
smile and bond over becauseit's cute.
Versus like let's teach themthe subversive ways that
capitalism has built theseentrenched systems of education.
And like kept you down and keptyour mind trapped.
Most people just think of it asa story about a rabbit who
(07:37):
steals carrots.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
But we're not like most people.
We see subtext.
It's a story about domesticityand capitalism.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Right and like.
Neither of those things areinherently bad right.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Whoa?
No, not at all.
And I love Janine sums it up.
She says, sahar, like thisproject is about kids practicing
fine motor skills, right, in acreative way, like that's her
vision of the goal of that.
And then Sahar is coming in andher, her vision is elevated,
(08:13):
right and like Melissa.
I love when Melissa calls herlittle miss MoMA.
Right, because her vision ofthis project is elevated,
because that's how she views art.
Right, it underlines this, thisclassism problem that art has
in this country.
This, this hierarchy of, like,fine arts versus craft, is
(08:35):
highlighted here and in a waythat's insulting Melissa for
wanting to do a craft with thekids.
There's nothing wrong withdoing a craft with the kids.
There's nothing wrong with withengaging the kids and helping
you make this installationproject.
But neither of these approacheshas anything to do with
creative expression from kids.
(08:56):
The kids have no say in what isabout to be made.
So what are they reallylearning?
They're learning to followdirections.
Right, like even Sahar's visionof radical anti-capitalist
transformation and using thepast to propel us forward.
Even that is just getting kidsto be her worker bees for her
vision.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Right, right, like it's almost this like thing that
she gets to put in herportfolio, or like, hey, I use
the labor of these little secondgraders to, like, create this
wonderful thing.
Look at me using the resources,extracting value from the
resources that, like you know,melissa put in right when she's
using the paper mache out of,like the books that Melissa
(09:41):
bought with, you know, her ownmoney and, like you know, that's
a whole nother dynamic thatgets addressed across the show
right Without her consent.
Right For Sahar.
Right, it's all about Sahar.
It's not really about, like,making free thinkers.
It's like hey, do your bunnything and then like help me
paper mache this.
It was like I would have beeninterested to see, like the
(10:03):
process of Sahar having the kidshelp, like we don't know how
much they contributed to that.
Did Sahar just do that on herown, like bringing her other
friends to like make that lookpretty and then like, okay, kids
, do your bunny thing, color thebunnies however you want them
to be colored right, lots oflevels and like the.
What you're saying about thechoice being taken away from the
(10:26):
kids who like this is supposedto be about was totally missed.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And I think you know this is smooth segue into our
you know the second thing that Iwant to talk about, which is
this idea that stakeholders arenot consulted throughout the
episode, and in this particularinstance, it's the kids, right
Like.
The kids should have a voice inwhat they want to make, what
(10:55):
they want to do with the school,even if they're doing the
installation.
They should have had some handin the ideation process and the
brainstorming process.
We don't get to see any of that.
They are purely just workersfollowing directions.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Right, right, and you know again limits of a 21
minute TV show.
I wonder if, like on the in theextended cut, there were those
moments where we got to see themcreatively brainstorming what
we want this landscape to looklike, right?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know, with Sahar, I don't know, I don't know if
she would be up for that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
For sure, for sure, but, like you were saying, as as
a segue, right, if you'reappreciating this video, like to
help us in the YouTubealgorithm.
Subscribe so you won't miss thevideo, and share it with
someone to help us furtheramplify this work.
Now back to the show.
On the B side of this episode,we have a situation where
Barbara and Jacob are reallydissatisfied with school lunches
(11:49):
, as, like you know, arguablyjustifiably so, and you know,
jacob and Barbara approach Devon, the cafeteria worker, about
like yo, what can we do aboutthis?
Like, how can we make thisbetter?
I believe this is what they'reserving the children, jacob and
I are starting a garden to growsome vegetables for the students
(12:11):
In the magical timeline of youknow a TV show.
somehow they were able toproduce one little zucchini
after you know a day's work inyou know in a community garden
that they had set up rightBuilding boxes, planting all of
that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Even calling it a community garden is hilarious.
It was literally the two ofthem.
So again it's like that sameissue of why are you making the
garden?
Why are you really making thisgarden?
Is it to teach the kids aboutgardening?
Are we giving them thislifelong skill?
Are we?
You know they're not engaginganyone else in the process?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And doing it very badly.
Right, because Gregory's theone who is ending up like saving
the garden.
You know we see how that playsout like much farther down the
line.
But you know their hearts arein the right place, their hearts
, they have good intentions,right, and you know, just like
Sahar, just like Melissa, inthese circumstances, right,
(13:14):
people want what is, quote,unquote, best for the kids,
right, but how do we go aboutgetting there?
Right, this lack of input fromstakeholders, right, is so
present, right, and so you havepeople taking paternalistic,
savior mentality routes togetting to achieve their goals
(13:36):
and, like, we have like prettypoor results, even when, like
Jacob goes and like hey, I knowthat our garden isn't producing
everything that needs to rightnow, and brings a whole tray of
like zucchini prepared from hishome to school.
Like, hey, you can feed this tothe kid like Devon's
immediately.
Like, what are you doing?
(13:56):
Right, we can't serve this yearI think there is a harmful way
that this phrase can be used butlike, stay in your lane.
Right, there is.
If you don't know what you'retalking about, if you don't know
what you're doing, like, don'twaste your efforts doing
(14:17):
something that is someone else'sjob, someone else's expertise.
If you want to like share your,If you want to invest and share
and like work together withfolks you know, approach it from
the like, you know, what can wedo to make it better?
Like, how can I support you andthe thing that you do?
Yeah, like every day, right,like Devin's not coming in to
(14:41):
Jacob's classroom and saying,like this is how you teach
history.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But it's, I mean it's clear just in.
He's you know, he throws it outand he says it's a health code
violation, like this very basicContent knowledge, because food
is content this content,knowledge that Barbara and Jacob
don't have and they could havehad if they had collaborated and
Facilitated this project, asopposed to just leading it.
(15:07):
Because stay in your lane,you're right.
It's like one of these kind ofloaded phrases because it is
okay to go into somebody else'slane if you're behind them,
right, or if you're alongsidethem, but when you're walking up
front and telling other peopleto follow you and not consulting
and Not involving all of thefunds of knowledge Within that
(15:30):
person, like it's, it issaviorist, you know it's, it's
icky.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, and you know, we hear Barb say like you know,
I pulled the Janine right andJanine's like the way that
Janine has been representedacross this show is like hey,
I'm gonna fix it, I'm gonna saveit right, I'm gonna make the
situation better, even though Imight not have like the best
expertise.
Like at least I'm gonna dosomething Right.
(15:57):
And like that's not quite herjourney through this episode,
like Barb is able to recognizethat and herself and be like you
know what?
Like Like this was this was notright.
There were better ways to goabout this.
Yeah, once these plants startblooming, we're gonna be
swimming in squash, and thenwhat we prepared them.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
We do not have time.
We barely getting by as is.
Y'all can make believe on yourown time.
So Not the reaction I washoping for.
Devon's right, we're beingfoolish Barbara.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I cannot believe that I let myself get carried away
projects like this.
They do not work in publicschools.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I Pulled it.
Janine, yeah, for sure, and I.
Her response, though, is it'svery fatalist.
It's it's this would be a greatresponse.
It's it's this would never workin a public school, right.
And she is this contrast toJanine, who is always hopeful,
but in this kind of naive,unprepared, unknowing way, and I
(17:04):
think what both of Both of themare missing is that there is a
path forward.
It just it needs to involveeverybody and drawn everyone's
skills and knowledges.
And you know, this is this iswhere, like then, the community
organizer and me is like wecould have turned this into an
(17:25):
issue, right, we could haveorganized around this, we could
have involved kids and families,etc in nutrition, but none of
that was done because they didjust decide like oh well, we can
fix this.
And you're right, it's it ispulling a Janine because she
does the same thing.
It's it's I know how to fixthis.
I'm gonna go above and beyond,you know, bless her heart, but
(17:50):
it is rarely successful right,and you know these things Take
time right.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Anything that you're trying to do to like implement
community change, for example,like implement restorative
justice practices right, itcan't just to be One person
saying like this is the way thatthings are gonna be now and I'm
gonna be the person who's goingto run all the peace circles,
teach everyone about restorativejustice, build, like our school
(18:17):
Agreements, guidelines, like bymyself.
Right, you've got to takeCollaborative approaches to all
those things.
Of course you as an individualcan model those behaviors right
and invite people to participatein those with you and sometimes
, depending on where you'resituated within the hierarchy or
Political power in yourenvironment, like that might be
(18:41):
the only thing that you can do.
Right.
But if you're trying to Makethis a community thing, roll it
out school right.
Like how are people educatedabout?
what you're actually trying todo right.
There's so much confusion aboutwhat restorative justice is
people think it's superpermissive.
It's just people talking andlike, no consequences coming
down, right?
So, like, how are we makingsure that people fully
(19:03):
understand what we're meaningwhen we're saying restorative
justice?
And then how are we invitingpeople in to participate in the
process?
Right, it's not something thatcan just be rolled out as
program.
Right, you can look up thepolicies and handbooks and
guides that you know lots ofschools or lots of school
districts have implemented, butthat's not necessarily gonna be
(19:23):
the thing that is relevant toyour school.
Right, you have to understandthe frameworks in your community
, has to understand the visionfor it, so y'all can work
together to make it sustainable.
Otherwise, as soon as you leavethat school, as soon as you
leave that environment, that'sgonna go with you.
Right, you know Barb and Jacob.
Right, you're saying it's not acommunity garden, it's a Barb,
(19:45):
jacob in like let's be honestGregory garden, which, like, is
not in itself a bad thing.
But like, what is the legacy ofthat project that you want to
leave?
Right?
Like, what is the purpose ofthis if it's to Get, like, more
vegetables at school?
Like there are less laborintensive ways of doing that?
Right, or Is it about, you know, teaching kids about gardening.
(20:08):
Well, the approach that you'regoing about, that is, is not
that at all Right.
So being clear about, like,what you're trying to achieve
and then involving community tomake us sustainable is so
important and, like you know,organizing principles 101 yeah,
and I you know it's.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
It's you want to build an org that can exist
without you, right, and thattakes buy-in.
Yeah and buy-in is not somethingyou can force from people.
Buy-in is not something you caneducate into people.
Buy-in only comes wheneverybody involved participates
in the ideation and coming upwith the idea, when coming up
(20:47):
with the solution, right?
So I think this is.
It goes back to the Sahar thing.
It's like she came in with hervision of how to fix this
perceived problem and, of course, there was no buy-in because it
was only her idea.
So I just I have to bring itback to Arts Ed, right, because
(21:09):
so much of what art education isreally trying to do is to teach
creative problem solving.
You make an artwork doesn't lookgood at first.
You have to look at it, analyzeit, figure it out, work with it
, revise it, refine it, getfeedback.
You critique, make adjustments,present it again, right?
So it's about this process ofalmost like a design cycle of
(21:32):
revision and feedback from peers, and those are skills that you
develop over years and years ofpracticing.
The arts neurons that firetogether, wire together.
It takes practice, and so ifyou have a strong arts education
(21:53):
, you are better able to go intoa community and almost wing it.
It's like you are playingimprov, right, you are looking
at all the pieces.
You are analyzing the problemin this holistic way and you
were coming up with a creativesolution.
In community, just like in anarts room where there's critique
(22:14):
, you're working with multiplepeople to decide what the best
path forward is.
So these skills reallytranslate.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
They really translate .
It's not about like, hey, whatis the brush stroke, what is the
material that you're using,which are important things to
know, right, and the applicationof that is so important, right?
Similarly, like, hey, can youask these sets of restorative
questions?
Right?
Can you set up a circle?
(22:42):
Absolutely, can you do that ina way that is appropriate for
the needs of your community?
That takes practice right, thattakes an inherent to practice
is like messing it up, learningto do better, and whether it's
art education or whether it'srestorative justice, practice,
(23:04):
we're trying to help peopleembody these ways of being,
these frameworks, these mindsets, rather than just techniques
and practices.
It's a time investment, right.
And not everyone is ready to dothat.
But if we're not ready to dothat, I do think it is nice that
they did that cool artinstallation.
(23:26):
But what is the cost?
Well, at what cost?
Right, it is nice that you canhave a circle and then, as a
one-and-done thing, or introducerestorative justice practices
as a thing that we'll do onspecial occasions, but what is
the impact of that?
Are you messaging to peoplethat restorative justice can
(23:46):
only be done in this particularway, in this particular set of
circumstances, by a particularperson?
It only happens when MrSo-and-so and Ms So-and-so or
whoever person, is therestorative justice coordinator
or is it something that isintegrated into the way that you
, as a community, move andwithin the context of schools?
(24:07):
I think what I'm left askingyou is in your experience, how
has this been done?
Well, whether it's arestorative justice or arts
education, but these things thataren't heavily prioritized in
mainstream education, but it'stime allotment, but how have you
seen it done well?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, I think with arts and with justice, which I
really I even think of it in myclassroom, just as relationship
right, it's community andrelationship I think that they
really are connected.
I think that they work very,very well together art and
relationship, art and communityBecause when I think of quality
(24:50):
arts, it always has some kind ofpersonal expression, it always
has some kind of opinion.
Students are creating artworksthat are reflecting and
attempting to shape the worldaround them.
So they are paying attention tothe news, to current events, to
the school community, to issuesin the school community, and
(25:12):
they are creating works of artabout those things.
Conceptual works of art.
Yes, there's technique.
Yes, there's material.
Yes, I'm actually teaching themhow to make art Also, but every
work of art is expressive inthis way.
That is socially engaged, right.
And then we have critique dayswhere students all get up and
they talk about their work andthey give each other advice and
(25:35):
suggestions, but they alsorespond to the messages in each
other's work.
So what this does is this opensup a space for conversations
about social justice issue,racial justice issues, gender
and sexuality and identity, butalso about issues at the school.
So I have had students makeartworks that are about sexist
(25:57):
dress code at the school andthen it sparks this classroom
conversation that then turnsinto this organizing moment
where students are then what arewe going to do?
And they're coming up with ittogether.
I'm the facilitator, I'm askingquestions, I'm asking
follow-ups, I'm asking who wantsto respond to this.
What do we think of this?
I'm charting it on the boardbut it's not my ideas ever.
(26:18):
But we have very often seenartworks about an issue
translate into petitions orrequests for meetings with the
principal or getting parentsinvolved in something the arts
spark.
They create space for socialengagement and organizing.
(26:40):
They also, through all of thiscollaboration, really improve
the relationships of the kids inthat classroom.
They all know each other, theyknow their opinions.
They've got practiced debatingsocial justice issues in the
classroom in a kind, polite andacademic way.
They learn the language todisagree in a respectful way
(27:02):
just by discussing the artworkabout those issues.
So I think it really developsrelationship skills.
It develops the sense ofknowing each other and knowing
who each of your peers are inthe classroom.
I love this moment where, likeSahar sorry back to the episode,
(27:23):
but like Sahar is trying tomake this point about like how
you know, jeanine, why'd you getinto the system right?
Did you take this job so thatyou could be part of the system
or because you wanted to inspirewhat's your name, bria students
like Bria and her friends to bethe next generation of free
thinkers?
So it's just so on the nose oflike you don't even know these
(27:49):
kids, you don't even know theirnames, like this is why I'm
saying I don't think there's abehind the scenes.
The kids were involved in thecreative process.
Sahar doesn't even know thesekids' names, right?
So relationship and knowingeach other and knowing who the
people in your classroom are isso foundational to any other
kind of you know justice workthat you want to try to do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You know, we've seen like the way that this like is
not practiced Well, the way thatthis doesn't play out well and
like.
I think it's prettyrepresentative of some things
that may happen in schoolsacross the country.
But how have you seen artseducation done well, like on a
school level, cause I imagine inyour classrooms, of course
right, but like on a schoollevel, like?
How have you seen artseducation executed and valued
(28:37):
well?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh gosh, you complicated by saying on a
school level yeah, cause I havenever really worked at a public
school that has had more than asingle arts teacher, so already
there's this isolation happening.
But what I have seen done wellis the more contemporary
(29:05):
approach to art.
Education in general is leapsand bounds more effective than
this cookie cutter kind of artwe're seeing.
Melissa propose where it's, Imake the model and you all make
a version of this right.
Contemporary art education ismuch more about teaching the
creative process.
So we're teaching kids, we'regiving them some prompt, and by
(29:30):
prompt I mean we're showing themartworks, we're showing them
articles, we're showing themnews clips, whatever it is.
You're prompting the kids.
You're guiding them through theideation process thumb nailing,
sketching.
You're guiding them through thepeer formative critique process
, which means showing it to apeer, getting feedback, problem
(29:53):
solving together, and thenyou're guiding them through the
techniques, materials andexperimentation they need to
turn it into a finished work.
All of that actually teacheskids how to create things and it
is completely different thanwhat Melissa was proposing,
where kids are just followingdirections.
They are creating almost like ashoe factory.
(30:17):
They are creating copies ofwhat they see as the model.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
What's present for me and I'm gonna ask it, but it
doesn't feel like the rightquestion to ask.
But is that asking too much ofteachers that aren't like,
specifically, art teachers?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
So, but I'm gonna piggyback on that in.
So, right now I'm lecturing at astate university and in this
program, in order to be ateacher, in order to be a social
worker or in order to be aearly childhood education
specialist meaning working at apreschool in order to do any of
(30:57):
these education majors, you haveto take a class called arts
education, children's art,children's craft.
You have to take one fullcourse preparing you to be able
to do this.
That is not the case in mostteacher preparation programs.
In most teacher prep programsthey're focused on those core
(31:19):
subjects, those testablesubjects right, maybe language
acquisition if they're in astate like California, but for
the most part they are notgetting the training that is
needed in order to do qualityart set.
It actually isn't more timeintensive, it isn't any harder
and a lot of ways, once you getthe hang of it, it's way easier
(31:41):
than doing one of these I make,we make you make projects, but
it does take some training andsome knowledge that the vast
majority of our teachers don'tcome into the school system
prepared with.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah.
So what is a teacher?
Who doesn't?
Who's sitting in a classroom,who's sitting?
Who's situated in a school thatdoesn't have arts education
funding, that doesn't have anart teacher?
What are they to do with?
Like all that you just sharedwith us, Practical suggestions.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, look up the visual thinking skills.
Visual thinking skills it's aHarvard Zero project.
It is a quick and easy toolboxof strategies you can use,
pretty much scripted, to movethe kind of art teaching you're
doing towards this more critical, collaborative process.
(32:36):
There are language likediscussion prompts for helping
students discuss and analyze andinterpret artwork, which that,
of course, flexes those empathymuscles.
There are prompts for studentsto talk about their own work so
that they can flex those SELexpressive skills.
(33:00):
There's a whole bank and thisis like one of a hundred
resources I wish I could, youknow, recommend right now, but
it's.
I think it's a very, very goodplace to start.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, it's just that one step and of course we can
link that and a bunch of otherthings in the show notes and
description below as we bringour analysis of, you know, this
episode to a close.
Right we see the moments ofattempted restoration, attempted
repair between Melissa andSahar, facilitated by Janine.
Maybe not exactly a restorativeprocess, but you know, janine
(33:37):
Blusserhardt does her best.
What was it about that thatmade you that lit you up?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I just I love when I love how poorly it goes.
I guess I love how poorly itgoes.
I love when Melissa takes herearrings off and hands them to
the kid.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Sahar.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
What is this garden made of?
Oh, that's the best part.
It's made out of the PeterRabbit books, misi.
That says so much about theculture of the school.
That says so much about hercharacter.
(34:24):
That was so funny.
When they go into the hallwayand Melissa really digs into
Sahar and Janine says you know,melissa storms off and Janine
says okay, so what I got fromthat was right you don't know
who you're messing with.
You know you better back up.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Sahar, we owe Melissa an apology.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Wow, I knew it.
I knew you're one of them, oneof who?
A conductor of mediocrity andconformity.
It's so cool that you worked inan underprivileged school, but
now I see that you don't evencare about inspiring the kids.
You know what.
I hate to say it, but I thinkyou're a conventional thinker.
You know what you can get out.
(35:06):
So it was just so funny how shetries right she tries.
It's like she's probably takenone PD workshop about how to do
conflict resolution and liketries to use the tools but just
flops Love that.
But then she actually does help, right she.
(35:29):
She solves the issue.
She finds the books to replacethe ones that Melissa had to buy
, and I think that that showsjust how much heart she has, how
how pure her intentions reallyare in that moment, that she
really wanted to make thingsright with her friend.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I struggle with Jeanine all
through the show.
Listeners to the show, no right, her conflict aversion, like
her need for people to befriendly, at peace, nice to each
other, is so strong.
(36:09):
Her need to people please andbe the person to like, make
things right, it's so strong.
Like that's where we have Barbsaying, like you know, I pulled
the Jeanine right Because likethat is you know who she shows
herself to be in so much of theshow.
And it's an opportunity for usto reflect and think.
Like you know, maybe there aresome moments of this that needed
(36:31):
like immediate de-escalation.
But like what part of thisconversation could have happened
at a later time where coolerheads could have prevailed?
What were the conversationsthat you could have had
immediately with those folksindividually, trying to figure
out needs and, like you know,jeanine did a version of that.
But, like in our highestversion of doing this in a
(36:52):
restorative way, there are anumber of ways that it could
have gone differently.
But we got what we got andthere is no one right way of
navigating conflict or harm.
But these principles of youknow, asking people what they
need, figuring out how the otherfolks in the situation were
impacted right, like what's theimpact on the students having
(37:14):
witnessed their teacher, almostlike throw hands with another
teacher and you know all theother things, like they're more
complicated factors Again, toomuch for a 21 minute TV show.
But you know another episode ofAva Elementary full of things to
help us reflect.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
(37:34):
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Ava Elementary, join us for
a live event on Monday, july 31.
Link with more info in thedescription.
Before we go, there arequestions that everybody answers
when they come on, and so ifyou were pitching yourself as a
(37:59):
character on Ava Elementary toQuinta and the writers, who
would you be and what would yourstory arc could be like?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Oh God, I mean, I hate to say it, but I think I'd
be pretty similar to Jeanine.
I would be the wacky artteacher and I there is already
kind of a bit that I do in myclassroom of the wacky art
teacher who's constantly likebut what do you want to make,
(38:29):
right, where there is thiscomplete lack of like?
There's this perception, right,there's this perception that if
an art teacher is so focused onemotion and an expression and
SEL that there is no techniqueor material content knowledge
being passed.
That's not true.
Like, my kids make work thatlooks really good.
(38:52):
You know, I think I think it'sall beautiful.
They think it's all beautiful.
You know we work on thingsuntil they're proud of it, right
?
But, I think the character thatwould be really charming in this
show is is that character theone who's overly concerned with
everyone's feelings, whose roomis just total chaos, constantly
(39:15):
covered in paint, so loudblaring music that maybe
shouldn't be at a school it?
I think that would be cute, andI think she'd definitely be
friends with Jeanine.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and maybe mortal enemies with Barb the way
that you frame what was goingon.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
It would not approve of a lot of my approaches,
that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Beautiful.
So, from your lips to Quintaand the writer's ears, thank you
so much, alicia.
How and where can peoplesupport your work in the ways
that you want to be supported?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, so, honestly, right now I'm on baby break,
I've got a three year old, I'vegot a four month old.
I'm not doing anything rightnow, but in a couple months I
want you to check out my substack, which is miss mernick art
.
Dot.
Sub stack calm, and myInstagram, which is at Miss
Mernick art.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Beautiful.
Of course, all of those thingswill be linked down below, but
again, thank you so much, alicia.
We'll be back with anotherepisode analysis restorative
justice reflection very soon.
Until then, take care.
Heyo, david, here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
We're doing the money plateslike we've always done, and
that's the end of the discussion.
Janine, get your girl and tellher to watch out, because you
don't know who you're messingwith.
Welcome back to Restored ofJustice Reflections.
(00:48):
I'm David, ryan, barcaga, castro, harris all five names for all
the ancestors and today I'm herewith Alicia Maneucia-Renek to
dive deep into the restorativethemes, or lack thereof, found
in season one, episode seven ofABC's Abba Elementary Art
Teacher.
As always, our conversation hereis not a critique of the story
or production choices of thecreators, but we will highlight
how Restored of Justice canapply to situations like
bringing quality arts educationinto schools and also
(01:11):
collaborating to hold power withpeople instead of having power
over them.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying Restored of
Justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
(01:31):
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work.
Of course, links to everythingdown below.
Now let's get to it.
Alicia, thank you so much forbeing here.
Introduce yourself in the waythat you want to be known by our
audience.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sure, thanks for having me, david.
This is a really fun idea for apodcast.
So I'm Alicia Manushmurnik.
I am an art educator, communityorganizer, activist in the
equity world, and I lovewatching Abba Elementary.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
You know, and when I was thinking about doing this
podcast as a whole, thinkingabout this episode specifically,
you know, you're anintersection of being an
organizer, activist and being anart educator.
In so many ways, you're theperfect person to be having this
conversation.
So when I reached out, what wasit about this episode that made
(02:26):
you be like, yes, this, let'sdo it on a high level?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
On a high level.
Yeah, just how much of a missedopportunity their approach to
art education is.
You know because when I waswatching it, that's where my
mind goes is what a real tragedy.
A lot of what we see is in artseducation in public schools,
(02:53):
but in this episode inparticular, a lot stood out.
A lot stood out that I thinkrelates to restorative justice
themes.
So it's going to be a good dive.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, and you know we really appreciate Abba
Elementary, not for showing,like this, polyannish version of
schools, of course, like somuch of what they do is
reductive because it's a 21minute sitcom, but like it does
get to highlight a lot of theissues and a lot of the things
that we would like to see changewithin the context of our
schools.
So let's get into the summaryof this episode, the A plot of
courses with the art teacher.
When the school art teacherretires, janine's college friend
(03:28):
Sahar is hired as the school'snew volunteer art teacher.
Sahar and Melissa disagree overthe Peter Rabbit project that
had that Melissa hashistorically been doing, and
although Janine agrees withMelissa, she finds it hard to
turn down Sahar's ideas.
Once Sahar makes an impressiveart piece using the books that
(03:49):
Melissa bought as paper mache,janine finally stands up to her.
In the B plot, which we'll getto later, disappointing the lack
of vegetables in the school'slunches, jacob convinces Barbara
that they should start a schoolgarden, despite having very
little experience doing so, andGregory secretly tends to the
garden so they can make surethat it thrives.
So a lot to unpack here, butlet's start with Sahar and
(04:13):
Janine.
Hey, my friend Sahar isstarting, so when I heard we
needed a new volunteer artteacher, I called my friend
Sahar.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
She's a successful local artist and she's so cool.
Janine, oh my God.
Sahar, oh she French.
Good morning everyone.
I'm Sahar.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
You know, like we know, the landscape of arts in
schools is dire and that's verywell represented here in Abba
Eleanorgy.
But as you were seeing thestoryline play out, what came up
for you?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh God.
So one is like both the teacherwho's retiring and this college
friend that are coming in.
These are both volunteerteachers.
There's no one on staff,there's no one who has an
education background who isteaching art in this school, and
so the kinds of art thatthey're bringing in are not
(05:09):
achieving what quality artseducation can actually do for
kids.
So one it's like underliningthis systemic issue.
I really love Abba Elementaryfor the same reason.
It's like every comedy isactually based on some tragedy,
right, some real tragedy, andthey introduce in a way that's
educating the audience, you know, in this kind of like palatable
(05:32):
, entertaining, loving way.
So in this one, like the, it'sjust so quick, it was so quickly
mentioned that like these areboth volunteers I think is huge.
The way that art is being taughtin, as illustrated by this
project, is not accomplishingthe real goals and outcomes of
(05:59):
quality art set.
And so all jump into what thatreally means and how it relates
to restorative justice.
Art education is an exercise inempathy, right.
It's an opportunity forsocio-emotional learning.
It's an opportunity forstudents to learn critical
problem solving, and all ofthese skills ultimately improve
(06:21):
community, improve relationships, improve our own awareness of
our feelings, our ability tocommunicate those feelings and
even just interpreting a work ofart.
It's like you're practicinglooking at someone else's
communication and interpretingthat and understanding the
emotional undercurrents beneathit.
(06:42):
All of that is really good forsupporting the goals of RJ, but
none of that is happening in thekinds of art we see in this
episode.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, or in a lot of art that is happening across
lots of schools and so when wehave a radical, community-based
artivist come in to do this work, right, she has a very
different set of priorities thanthe second grade teachers have.
Like, hey, let's create cutebunnies so our kids can take
(07:17):
them home and we can havesomething that we can all laugh,
smile and bond over becauseit's cute.
Versus like let's teach themthe subversive ways that
capitalism has built theseentrenched systems of education.
And like kept you down and keptyour mind trapped.
Most people just think of it asa story about a rabbit who
(07:37):
steals carrots.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
But we're not like most people.
We see subtext.
It's a story about domesticityand capitalism.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Right and like.
Neither of those things areinherently bad right.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Whoa?
No, not at all.
And I love Janine sums it up.
She says, sahar, like thisproject is about kids practicing
fine motor skills, right, in acreative way, like that's her
vision of the goal of that.
And then Sahar is coming in andher, her vision is elevated,
(08:13):
right and like Melissa.
I love when Melissa calls herlittle miss MoMA.
Right, because her vision ofthis project is elevated,
because that's how she views art.
Right, it underlines this, thisclassism problem that art has
in this country.
This, this hierarchy of, like,fine arts versus craft, is
(08:35):
highlighted here and in a waythat's insulting Melissa for
wanting to do a craft with thekids.
There's nothing wrong withdoing a craft with the kids.
There's nothing wrong with withengaging the kids and helping
you make this installationproject.
But neither of these approacheshas anything to do with
creative expression from kids.
(08:56):
The kids have no say in what isabout to be made.
So what are they reallylearning?
They're learning to followdirections.
Right, like even Sahar's visionof radical anti-capitalist
transformation and using thepast to propel us forward.
Even that is just getting kidsto be her worker bees for her
vision.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Right, right, like it's almost this like thing that
she gets to put in herportfolio, or like, hey, I use
the labor of these little secondgraders to, like, create this
wonderful thing.
Look at me using the resources,extracting value from the
resources that, like you know,melissa put in right when she's
using the paper mache out of,like the books that Melissa
(09:41):
bought with, you know, her ownmoney and, like you know, that's
a whole nother dynamic thatgets addressed across the show
right Without her consent.
Right For Sahar.
Right, it's all about Sahar.
It's not really about, like,making free thinkers.
It's like hey, do your bunnything and then like help me
paper mache this.
It was like I would have beeninterested to see, like the
(10:03):
process of Sahar having the kidshelp, like we don't know how
much they contributed to that.
Did Sahar just do that on herown, like bringing her other
friends to like make that lookpretty and then like, okay, kids
, do your bunny thing, color thebunnies however you want them
to be colored right, lots oflevels and like the.
What you're saying about thechoice being taken away from the
(10:26):
kids who like this is supposedto be about was totally missed.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And I think you know this is smooth segue into our
you know the second thing that Iwant to talk about, which is
this idea that stakeholders arenot consulted throughout the
episode, and in this particularinstance, it's the kids, right
Like.
The kids should have a voice inwhat they want to make, what
(10:55):
they want to do with the school,even if they're doing the
installation.
They should have had some handin the ideation process and the
brainstorming process.
We don't get to see any of that.
They are purely just workersfollowing directions.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Right, right, and you know again limits of a 21
minute TV show.
I wonder if, like on the in theextended cut, there were those
moments where we got to see themcreatively brainstorming what
we want this landscape to looklike, right?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know, with Sahar, I don't know, I don't know if
she would be up for that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
For sure, for sure, but, like you were saying, as as
a segue, right, if you'reappreciating this video, like to
help us in the YouTubealgorithm.
Subscribe so you won't miss thevideo, and share it with
someone to help us furtheramplify this work.
Now back to the show.
On the B side of this episode,we have a situation where
Barbara and Jacob are reallydissatisfied with school lunches
(11:49):
, as, like you know, arguablyjustifiably so, and you know,
jacob and Barbara approach Devon, the cafeteria worker, about
like yo, what can we do aboutthis?
Like, how can we make thisbetter?
I believe this is what they'reserving the children, jacob and
I are starting a garden to growsome vegetables for the students
(12:11):
In the magical timeline of youknow a TV show.
somehow they were able toproduce one little zucchini
after you know a day's work inyou know in a community garden
that they had set up rightBuilding boxes, planting all of
that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Even calling it a community garden is hilarious.
It was literally the two ofthem.
So again it's like that sameissue of why are you making the
garden?
Why are you really making thisgarden?
Is it to teach the kids aboutgardening?
Are we giving them thislifelong skill?
Are we?
You know they're not engaginganyone else in the process?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And doing it very badly.
Right, because Gregory's theone who is ending up like saving
the garden.
You know we see how that playsout like much farther down the
line.
But you know their hearts arein the right place, their hearts
, they have good intentions,right, and you know, just like
Sahar, just like Melissa, inthese circumstances, right,
(13:14):
people want what is, quote,unquote, best for the kids,
right, but how do we go aboutgetting there?
Right, this lack of input fromstakeholders, right, is so
present, right, and so you havepeople taking paternalistic,
savior mentality routes togetting to achieve their goals
(13:36):
and, like, we have like prettypoor results, even when, like
Jacob goes and like hey, I knowthat our garden isn't producing
everything that needs to rightnow, and brings a whole tray of
like zucchini prepared from hishome to school.
Like, hey, you can feed this tothe kid like Devon's
immediately.
Like, what are you doing?
(13:56):
Right, we can't serve this yearI think there is a harmful way
that this phrase can be used butlike, stay in your lane.
Right, there is.
If you don't know what you'retalking about, if you don't know
what you're doing, like, don'twaste your efforts doing
(14:17):
something that is someone else'sjob, someone else's expertise.
If you want to like share your,If you want to invest and share
and like work together withfolks you know, approach it from
the like, you know, what can wedo to make it better?
Like, how can I support you andthe thing that you do?
Yeah, like every day, right,like Devin's not coming in to
(14:41):
Jacob's classroom and saying,like this is how you teach
history.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But it's, I mean it's clear just in.
He's you know, he throws it outand he says it's a health code
violation, like this very basicContent knowledge, because food
is content this content,knowledge that Barbara and Jacob
don't have and they could havehad if they had collaborated and
Facilitated this project, asopposed to just leading it.
(15:07):
Because stay in your lane,you're right.
It's like one of these kind ofloaded phrases because it is
okay to go into somebody else'slane if you're behind them,
right, or if you're alongsidethem, but when you're walking up
front and telling other peopleto follow you and not consulting
and Not involving all of thefunds of knowledge Within that
(15:30):
person, like it's, it issaviorist, you know it's, it's
icky.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, and you know, we hear Barb say like you know,
I pulled the Janine right andJanine's like the way that
Janine has been representedacross this show is like hey,
I'm gonna fix it, I'm gonna saveit right, I'm gonna make the
situation better, even though Imight not have like the best
expertise.
Like at least I'm gonna dosomething Right.
(15:57):
And like that's not quite herjourney through this episode,
like Barb is able to recognizethat and herself and be like you
know what?
Like Like this was this was notright.
There were better ways to goabout this.
Yeah, once these plants startblooming, we're gonna be
swimming in squash, and thenwhat we prepared them.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
We do not have time.
We barely getting by as is.
Y'all can make believe on yourown time.
So Not the reaction I washoping for.
Devon's right, we're beingfoolish Barbara.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I cannot believe that I let myself get carried away
projects like this.
They do not work in publicschools.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I Pulled it.
Janine, yeah, for sure, and I.
Her response, though, is it'svery fatalist.
It's it's this would be a greatresponse.
It's it's this would never workin a public school, right.
And she is this contrast toJanine, who is always hopeful,
but in this kind of naive,unprepared, unknowing way, and I
(17:04):
think what both of Both of themare missing is that there is a
path forward.
It just it needs to involveeverybody and drawn everyone's
skills and knowledges.
And you know, this is this iswhere, like then, the community
organizer and me is like wecould have turned this into an
(17:25):
issue, right, we could haveorganized around this, we could
have involved kids and families,etc in nutrition, but none of
that was done because they didjust decide like oh well, we can
fix this.
And you're right, it's it ispulling a Janine because she
does the same thing.
It's it's I know how to fixthis.
I'm gonna go above and beyond,you know, bless her heart, but
(17:50):
it is rarely successful right,and you know these things Take
time right.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Anything that you're trying to do to like implement
community change, for example,like implement restorative
justice practices right, itcan't just to be One person
saying like this is the way thatthings are gonna be now and I'm
gonna be the person who's goingto run all the peace circles,
teach everyone about restorativejustice, build, like our school
(18:17):
Agreements, guidelines, like bymyself.
Right, you've got to takeCollaborative approaches to all
those things.
Of course you as an individualcan model those behaviors right
and invite people to participatein those with you and sometimes
, depending on where you'resituated within the hierarchy or
Political power in yourenvironment, like that might be
(18:41):
the only thing that you can do.
Right.
But if you're trying to Makethis a community thing, roll it
out school right.
Like how are people educatedabout?
what you're actually trying todo right.
There's so much confusion aboutwhat restorative justice is
people think it's superpermissive.
It's just people talking andlike, no consequences coming
down, right?
So, like, how are we makingsure that people fully
(19:03):
understand what we're meaningwhen we're saying restorative
justice?
And then how are we invitingpeople in to participate in the
process?
Right, it's not something thatcan just be rolled out as
program.
Right, you can look up thepolicies and handbooks and
guides that you know lots ofschools or lots of school
districts have implemented, butthat's not necessarily gonna be
(19:23):
the thing that is relevant toyour school.
Right, you have to understandthe frameworks in your community
, has to understand the visionfor it, so y'all can work
together to make it sustainable.
Otherwise, as soon as you leavethat school, as soon as you
leave that environment, that'sgonna go with you.
Right, you know Barb and Jacob.
Right, you're saying it's not acommunity garden, it's a Barb,
(19:45):
jacob in like let's be honestGregory garden, which, like, is
not in itself a bad thing.
But like, what is the legacy ofthat project that you want to
leave?
Right?
Like, what is the purpose ofthis if it's to Get, like, more
vegetables at school?
Like there are less laborintensive ways of doing that?
Right, or Is it about, you know, teaching kids about gardening.
(20:08):
Well, the approach that you'regoing about, that is, is not
that at all Right.
So being clear about, like,what you're trying to achieve
and then involving community tomake us sustainable is so
important and, like you know,organizing principles 101 yeah,
and I you know it's.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
It's you want to build an org that can exist
without you, right, and thattakes buy-in.
Yeah and buy-in is not somethingyou can force from people.
Buy-in is not something you caneducate into people.
Buy-in only comes wheneverybody involved participates
in the ideation and coming upwith the idea, when coming up
(20:47):
with the solution, right?
So I think this is.
It goes back to the Sahar thing.
It's like she came in with hervision of how to fix this
perceived problem and, of course, there was no buy-in because it
was only her idea.
So I just I have to bring itback to Arts Ed, right, because
(21:09):
so much of what art education isreally trying to do is to teach
creative problem solving.
You make an artwork doesn't lookgood at first.
You have to look at it, analyzeit, figure it out, work with it
, revise it, refine it, getfeedback.
You critique, make adjustments,present it again, right?
So it's about this process ofalmost like a design cycle of
(21:32):
revision and feedback from peers, and those are skills that you
develop over years and years ofpracticing.
The arts neurons that firetogether, wire together.
It takes practice, and so ifyou have a strong arts education
(21:53):
, you are better able to go intoa community and almost wing it.
It's like you are playingimprov, right, you are looking
at all the pieces.
You are analyzing the problemin this holistic way and you
were coming up with a creativesolution.
In community, just like in anarts room where there's critique
(22:14):
, you're working with multiplepeople to decide what the best
path forward is.
So these skills reallytranslate.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
They really translate .
It's not about like, hey, whatis the brush stroke, what is the
material that you're using,which are important things to
know, right, and the applicationof that is so important, right?
Similarly, like, hey, can youask these sets of restorative
questions?
Right?
Can you set up a circle?
(22:42):
Absolutely, can you do that ina way that is appropriate for
the needs of your community?
That takes practice right, thattakes an inherent to practice
is like messing it up, learningto do better, and whether it's
art education or whether it'srestorative justice, practice,
(23:04):
we're trying to help peopleembody these ways of being,
these frameworks, these mindsets, rather than just techniques
and practices.
It's a time investment, right.
And not everyone is ready to dothat.
But if we're not ready to dothat, I do think it is nice that
they did that cool artinstallation.
(23:26):
But what is the cost?
Well, at what cost?
Right, it is nice that you canhave a circle and then, as a
one-and-done thing, or introducerestorative justice practices
as a thing that we'll do onspecial occasions, but what is
the impact of that?
Are you messaging to peoplethat restorative justice can
(23:46):
only be done in this particularway, in this particular set of
circumstances, by a particularperson?
It only happens when MrSo-and-so and Ms So-and-so or
whoever person, is therestorative justice coordinator
or is it something that isintegrated into the way that you
, as a community, move andwithin the context of schools?
(24:07):
I think what I'm left askingyou is in your experience, how
has this been done?
Well, whether it's arestorative justice or arts
education, but these things thataren't heavily prioritized in
mainstream education, but it'stime allotment, but how have you
seen it done well?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, I think with arts and with justice, which I
really I even think of it in myclassroom, just as relationship
right, it's community andrelationship I think that they
really are connected.
I think that they work very,very well together art and
relationship, art and communityBecause when I think of quality
(24:50):
arts, it always has some kind ofpersonal expression, it always
has some kind of opinion.
Students are creating artworksthat are reflecting and
attempting to shape the worldaround them.
So they are paying attention tothe news, to current events, to
the school community, to issuesin the school community, and
(25:12):
they are creating works of artabout those things.
Conceptual works of art.
Yes, there's technique.
Yes, there's material.
Yes, I'm actually teaching themhow to make art Also, but every
work of art is expressive inthis way.
That is socially engaged, right.
And then we have critique dayswhere students all get up and
they talk about their work andthey give each other advice and
(25:35):
suggestions, but they alsorespond to the messages in each
other's work.
So what this does is this opensup a space for conversations
about social justice issue,racial justice issues, gender
and sexuality and identity, butalso about issues at the school.
So I have had students makeartworks that are about sexist
(25:57):
dress code at the school andthen it sparks this classroom
conversation that then turnsinto this organizing moment
where students are then what arewe going to do?
And they're coming up with ittogether.
I'm the facilitator, I'm askingquestions, I'm asking
follow-ups, I'm asking who wantsto respond to this.
What do we think of this?
I'm charting it on the boardbut it's not my ideas ever.
(26:18):
But we have very often seenartworks about an issue
translate into petitions orrequests for meetings with the
principal or getting parentsinvolved in something the arts
spark.
They create space for socialengagement and organizing.
(26:40):
They also, through all of thiscollaboration, really improve
the relationships of the kids inthat classroom.
They all know each other, theyknow their opinions.
They've got practiced debatingsocial justice issues in the
classroom in a kind, polite andacademic way.
They learn the language todisagree in a respectful way
(27:02):
just by discussing the artworkabout those issues.
So I think it really developsrelationship skills.
It develops the sense ofknowing each other and knowing
who each of your peers are inthe classroom.
I love this moment where, likeSahar sorry back to the episode,
(27:23):
but like Sahar is trying tomake this point about like how
you know, jeanine, why'd you getinto the system right?
Did you take this job so thatyou could be part of the system
or because you wanted to inspirewhat's your name, bria students
like Bria and her friends to bethe next generation of free
thinkers?
So it's just so on the nose oflike you don't even know these
(27:49):
kids, you don't even know theirnames, like this is why I'm
saying I don't think there's abehind the scenes.
The kids were involved in thecreative process.
Sahar doesn't even know thesekids' names, right?
So relationship and knowingeach other and knowing who the
people in your classroom are isso foundational to any other
kind of you know justice workthat you want to try to do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You know, we've seen like the way that this like is
not practiced Well, the way thatthis doesn't play out well and
like.
I think it's prettyrepresentative of some things
that may happen in schoolsacross the country.
But how have you seen artseducation done well, like on a
school level, cause I imagine inyour classrooms, of course
right, but like on a schoollevel, like?
How have you seen artseducation executed and valued
(28:37):
well?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Oh gosh, you complicated by saying on a
school level yeah, cause I havenever really worked at a public
school that has had more than asingle arts teacher, so already
there's this isolation happening.
But what I have seen done wellis the more contemporary
(29:05):
approach to art.
Education in general is leapsand bounds more effective than
this cookie cutter kind of artwe're seeing.
Melissa propose where it's, Imake the model and you all make
a version of this right.
Contemporary art education ismuch more about teaching the
creative process.
So we're teaching kids, we'regiving them some prompt, and by
(29:30):
prompt I mean we're showing themartworks, we're showing them
articles, we're showing themnews clips, whatever it is.
You're prompting the kids.
You're guiding them through theideation process thumb nailing,
sketching.
You're guiding them through thepeer formative critique process
, which means showing it to apeer, getting feedback, problem
(29:53):
solving together, and thenyou're guiding them through the
techniques, materials andexperimentation they need to
turn it into a finished work.
All of that actually teacheskids how to create things and it
is completely different thanwhat Melissa was proposing,
where kids are just followingdirections.
They are creating almost like ashoe factory.
(30:17):
They are creating copies ofwhat they see as the model.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
What's present for me and I'm gonna ask it, but it
doesn't feel like the rightquestion to ask.
But is that asking too much ofteachers that aren't like,
specifically, art teachers?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
So, but I'm gonna piggyback on that in.
So, right now I'm lecturing at astate university and in this
program, in order to be ateacher, in order to be a social
worker or in order to be aearly childhood education
specialist meaning working at apreschool in order to do any of
(30:57):
these education majors, you haveto take a class called arts
education, children's art,children's craft.
You have to take one fullcourse preparing you to be able
to do this.
That is not the case in mostteacher preparation programs.
In most teacher prep programsthey're focused on those core
(31:19):
subjects, those testablesubjects right, maybe language
acquisition if they're in astate like California, but for
the most part they are notgetting the training that is
needed in order to do qualityart set.
It actually isn't more timeintensive, it isn't any harder
and a lot of ways, once you getthe hang of it, it's way easier
(31:41):
than doing one of these I make,we make you make projects, but
it does take some training andsome knowledge that the vast
majority of our teachers don'tcome into the school system
prepared with.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah.
So what is a teacher?
Who doesn't?
Who's sitting in a classroom,who's sitting?
Who's situated in a school thatdoesn't have arts education
funding, that doesn't have anart teacher?
What are they to do with?
Like all that you just sharedwith us, Practical suggestions.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, look up the visual thinking skills.
Visual thinking skills it's aHarvard Zero project.
It is a quick and easy toolboxof strategies you can use,
pretty much scripted, to movethe kind of art teaching you're
doing towards this more critical, collaborative process.
(32:36):
There are language likediscussion prompts for helping
students discuss and analyze andinterpret artwork, which that,
of course, flexes those empathymuscles.
There are prompts for studentsto talk about their own work so
that they can flex those SELexpressive skills.
(33:00):
There's a whole bank and thisis like one of a hundred
resources I wish I could, youknow, recommend right now, but
it's.
I think it's a very, very goodplace to start.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, it's just that one step and of course we can
link that and a bunch of otherthings in the show notes and
description below as we bringour analysis of, you know, this
episode to a close.
Right we see the moments ofattempted restoration, attempted
repair between Melissa andSahar, facilitated by Janine.
Maybe not exactly a restorativeprocess, but you know, janine
(33:37):
Blusserhardt does her best.
What was it about that thatmade you that lit you up?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I just I love when I love how poorly it goes.
I guess I love how poorly itgoes.
I love when Melissa takes herearrings off and hands them to
the kid.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Sahar.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
What is this garden made of?
Oh, that's the best part.
It's made out of the PeterRabbit books, misi.
That says so much about theculture of the school.
That says so much about hercharacter.
(34:24):
That was so funny.
When they go into the hallwayand Melissa really digs into
Sahar and Janine says you know,melissa storms off and Janine
says okay, so what I got fromthat was right you don't know
who you're messing with.
You know you better back up.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Sahar, we owe Melissa an apology.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Wow, I knew it.
I knew you're one of them, oneof who?
A conductor of mediocrity andconformity.
It's so cool that you worked inan underprivileged school, but
now I see that you don't evencare about inspiring the kids.
You know what.
I hate to say it, but I thinkyou're a conventional thinker.
You know what you can get out.
(35:06):
So it was just so funny how shetries right she tries.
It's like she's probably takenone PD workshop about how to do
conflict resolution and liketries to use the tools but just
flops Love that.
But then she actually does help, right she.
(35:29):
She solves the issue.
She finds the books to replacethe ones that Melissa had to buy
, and I think that that showsjust how much heart she has, how
how pure her intentions reallyare in that moment, that she
really wanted to make thingsright with her friend.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I struggle with Jeanine all
through the show.
Listeners to the show, no right, her conflict aversion, like
her need for people to befriendly, at peace, nice to each
other, is so strong.
(36:09):
Her need to people please andbe the person to like, make
things right, it's so strong.
Like that's where we have Barbsaying, like you know, I pulled
the Jeanine right Because likethat is you know who she shows
herself to be in so much of theshow.
And it's an opportunity for usto reflect and think.
Like you know, maybe there aresome moments of this that needed
(36:31):
like immediate de-escalation.
But like what part of thisconversation could have happened
at a later time where coolerheads could have prevailed?
What were the conversationsthat you could have had
immediately with those folksindividually, trying to figure
out needs and, like you know,jeanine did a version of that.
But, like in our highestversion of doing this in a
(36:52):
restorative way, there are anumber of ways that it could
have gone differently.
But we got what we got andthere is no one right way of
navigating conflict or harm.
But these principles of youknow, asking people what they
need, figuring out how the otherfolks in the situation were
impacted right, like what's theimpact on the students having
(37:14):
witnessed their teacher, almostlike throw hands with another
teacher and you know all theother things, like they're more
complicated factors Again, toomuch for a 21 minute TV show.
But you know another episode ofAva Elementary full of things to
help us reflect.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
(37:34):
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Ava Elementary, join us for
a live event on Monday, july 31.
Link with more info in thedescription.
Before we go, there arequestions that everybody answers
when they come on, and so ifyou were pitching yourself as a
(37:59):
character on Ava Elementary toQuinta and the writers, who
would you be and what would yourstory arc could be like?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Oh God, I mean, I hate to say it, but I think I'd
be pretty similar to Jeanine.
I would be the wacky artteacher and I there is already
kind of a bit that I do in myclassroom of the wacky art
teacher who's constantly likebut what do you want to make,
(38:29):
right, where there is thiscomplete lack of like?
There's this perception, right,there's this perception that if
an art teacher is so focused onemotion and an expression and
SEL that there is no techniqueor material content knowledge
being passed.
That's not true.
Like, my kids make work thatlooks really good.
(38:52):
You know, I think I think it'sall beautiful.
They think it's all beautiful.
You know we work on thingsuntil they're proud of it, right
?
But, I think the character thatwould be really charming in this
show is is that character theone who's overly concerned with
everyone's feelings, whose roomis just total chaos, constantly
(39:15):
covered in paint, so loudblaring music that maybe
shouldn't be at a school it?
I think that would be cute, andI think she'd definitely be
friends with Jeanine.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and maybe mortal enemies with Barb the way
that you frame what was goingon.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
It would not approve of a lot of my approaches,
that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Beautiful.
So, from your lips to Quintaand the writer's ears, thank you
so much, alicia.
How and where can peoplesupport your work in the ways
that you want to be supported?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, so, honestly, right now I'm on baby break,
I've got a three year old, I'vegot a four month old.
I'm not doing anything rightnow, but in a couple months I
want you to check out my substack, which is miss mernick art
.
Dot.
Sub stack calm, and myInstagram, which is at Miss
Mernick art.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Beautiful.
Of course, all of those thingswill be linked down below, but
again, thank you so much, alicia.
We'll be back with anotherepisode analysis restorative
justice reflection very soon.
Until then, take care.
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