July 18, 2023 • 44 mins
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How can you use Restorative Justice in setting boundaries with co-workers, life as a black male educator, and connecting with students before getting to content? Find out on this episode of Restorative Justice Reflections!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Look on the bright side.
Now we get to all stay insideand have lunch together, which
will be nice because, despitewhat some people say, we all
love each other like one big,happy family.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome back to Restored of Justice Reflections.
I'm David Ryan Barcaga Castrohere, so all five names are all
the ancestors.
And today I'm here with JoseWilson to dive deep into the
restorative themes or lackthereof found in season one,
episode eight of ABC's AbbaElementary work family.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we will
highlight how restorativejustice can apply to situations
(01:06):
like setting boundaries withcolleagues, life as a blackmail
educator and connecting withstudents.
Before we get to teachingcontent.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying restorative
justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
(01:29):
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work, of course, links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it.
Jose, it is so good to be withyou.
I'm really excited to be havingthis conversation about this
episode specifically with you,but before we do that, tell the
(01:49):
folks who you are and yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Thanks for having me, david.
My name is Jose Wilson.
I'm the executive director ofEduColor, an organization
dedicated to race and socialjustice issues.
I'm also a full-time doctoralstudent at Teachers College,
columbia University, studyingsociology and education, and, of
course, I was a veteran mathteacher in Washington Heights,
new York City, for the betterpart of 15 years, as well as a
(02:14):
math instructional course.
So I come at this with multiplehats, not to mention a father,
husband and all the activistsand all these other, I guess,
denominations, but just happy tobe here today.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, I reached out andwhen I asked you what episode
you wanted to talk about, it wasthis one you were like, very
clear, like this is exactly whatI want to talk about.
Tell us about your relationshipwith the show Abbott Elementary
.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Abbott Elementary is probably the best show that I've
seen on a network around publiceducation since Boston Public,
which if you were alive andconscious around that time then
you would have known.
That was a really good show andI think it only lasted,
unfortunately, four seasons.
I know that a lot of peoplehighlight the wire too, as I
(03:04):
think it was season four wherethey had the education portion,
but generally speaking, thisshow actually more thoroughly
does the best job I've seenabout talking about the actual
profession and to pour in ourbest hopes and aspirations for
what we want the profession tobe in a way that I hadn't seen
in a real long time.
(03:24):
So I was grateful for the showand of course, I've been waiting
for the season two finale tojust so I can actually watch it
in full.
So I haven't actually watchedany episodes from season two
until, like, I actually got tosee that season one and full,
and now that it's all done Icould see season two as well.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
This episode work family was so full of moments to
talk about Again.
Summary courtesy of Wikipedia.
On the large part, we haveJanine being upset that Jacob
only thinks of her as a workfriend and she tries to build
better relationships with hercoworkers through some community
(04:01):
building, coerced by some food,some chicken.
At the same time, barbara andMelissa are trying to help
Gregory with his teachingmethods after his class is bound
to be underperforming in math.
On the side, janine has alsoenlisted to wreak her boyfriend
to perform an anti at the antidrug program at her school.
(04:22):
Gregory also receives a phonecall from his dad who is
advising Gregory that he shouldmove on from substitute teaching
at Abbott.
Where do you want to start?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
We could start anywhere.
I mean, the reason why I wantedthis episode so badly was
because I felt like Gregory wasso reflective of my experience
as a black male educator in ourschools and so we could
potentially start from there.
That'd be great.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, let's go.
You know, Gregory we see inthis episode and over the course
of the season so far has beencoming to grips with his role as
a teacher.
Right, we've seen him likebuying, like you know what, I'm
going to stick it out here forthe year Right, but he's still
struggling in some ways to bethe teacher that he wants to be,
(05:11):
be the teacher that hisstudents deserve.
Right, we've seen efforts atrelationship building in the
past, but what about his journeyin this episode resonated with
you?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
There's something about how teachers have been
trained over the course of thelast I would just say century,
like after my research, butreally like to give a personal
perspective.
We often get taught don't smileuntil December.
Right, like that's been acommon phrase, like a stone at
us, or that we have to find away to depersonalize the work in
order for us to truly tap intowhat students do.
(05:45):
But what this episode does isit flips that notion on his head
and says here is somebody whois constantly professional, but
yet it's not connected tostudents in the ways that he
desires or that his colleaguesare pointing out for him.
And so this episode says no,actually you should try to
inject as much of your personalself as you can, or you know, as
(06:06):
as you're slowly melting thatice around you, that you're able
to actually build thoseconnections with students in
order for them to learn.
Right, like that goes hand inhand.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Right.
Yeah, we see him likerepeatedly drilling his students
on their their math problems inefforts to teach to the test.
Right, because they are quoteunquote, underperforming.
Right, but we all know the oldadage like people don't care how
much you know, or like what youcan do for them until they know
how much you care, right.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Farmer Hank has five turkeys, then he buys four more.
How many turkeys does FarmerHank have?
Are any turkeys pregnant Guys?
Let's focus.
Ok, you know what we're goingto do more math drills.
So the whole class isunderperforming specifically in
math.
So we're taking time in recessto practice and get those scores
up.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Let's let's focus in on just the math of this and is
not really connecting with thestudents.
Fortunately for Gregory rightthere are veteran teachers in
the space who are like here.
Let me put you on game a littlebit.
And so, in the conversationsthat he had with Melissa and
Barbara, what was it that stoodout to you?
What was it that youappreciated?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
There was.
I mean, obviously there's theculminating part where he
finally starts like seeing anddancing in accordance to the
math itself, but Melissa'sportion where she also mentioned
Um.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Farmer Hank has seven turkeys.
Then he buys six more.
How many turkeys does FarmerHank now have?
Is one of the turkeys pregnant?
One of my kids asked the samething because it's a good
question and it shows thatthey're using critical thinking.
It's irrelevant no, it might besilly to you, but to them it
might be an important questionthat if they don't get it
answered, they can't focus anddiversions are an important part
(07:50):
of learning, and that was oneelement of it.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
But then also recognizing that, like that,
those sorts of dynamics wherestudents ask divergent questions
are actually what we wantstudents to do in math class
more generally, right, becauseisn't that where the part like
that's the part where weactually start seeing the real
life connections and them makingsense of the problem and them
being able to, like, have anynumber of divergent thoughts
that might get them into a spacethat allows them to see
(08:15):
themselves within the mathitself?
And so when Melissa's like, no,actually you want those
questions, because that meansthat they're critically thinking
, like both of the veteranteachers were able to name that
fairly readily, and so that forme, connected so well because I
was like oh, so you know,instead of this very rigid way
of thinking about how we teachmath and how students is
(08:35):
supposed to memorize X, y and Z,we want them to make those
connections more often, even ifthings as simple as 13 minus
seven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, you know, I think about the dynamic that you
mentioned earlier, like don'tsmile till December, right, or
like teach the test, like theseare things that are like very
much a part of a lot of teachereducation, especially over the
last, especially like over thelast century.
Things are changing a littlebit now where there is a little
bit more focus on relationshipand building connection in some
(09:05):
teacher education programs, butI know that there are teachers
out there, and new teachers aswell, who are like no, like this
is the way, this is not to makea mandalorian reference, but
this is the way that things havebeen historically done and
these are the things that I needto do.
If I give them any leeway, right, they're going to take
advantage of that and hijack thelearning of all the students
(09:27):
and we're just going to go downthese rabbit holes like, ok, but
what if it was a chicken?
What if it was a donkey?
And like, then we've justturned this into a biology
lesson and they're still notgetting their testing.
And how do you draw the line?
How do you set those parameters?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
The best part of what I've seen in my own math
teaching was recognizing that wehave a responsibility to take
those divergent thoughts andkind of reframe them towards the
ultimate goal.
Like we can always do a thingwhere we say, ok, let's get
distracted, let's get silly,that's all one and good.
And then once I've you know, Iguess quench that thirst, for
(10:05):
lack of a better metaphor I canthen say, oh so, now that we
have all that in mind, like whatdoes this look like in this
context?
And then being able to buildthat into the lesson.
So people too often, forexample, want their lessons to
go minute by minute and insteadof thinking about what are some,
what is the ultimate goal thatI'm trying to achieve with this?
And then being able to workbackwards from there and then
(10:28):
say to ourselves you know what?
Like, maybe this got distractedwith all sorts of like animals
within the farm that they weretrying to count.
But like, if I was able to thensay, all right, now that you
have all this in mind andreframe them and redirect them
towards what we're trying to do,then they're actually all the
better for it, as opposed to,you know, constructing the road
(10:49):
straight up and down and sayingyou cannot diverge from this
road.
Then all of a sudden you findthat you find that they
ultimately push themselves outof the road all together and
don't even want to get to thegoal with you because they can't
trust you, because they thinkthat you're not going to allow
them to do the X, y and Z.
So if you know how to reframepermission, then you'll be in
(11:10):
real good shape as far as anynumber of academic goals.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean and I think that does take a quote,
unquote mastery or at least likesolid foundation in your
content.
Right, so you can take thethings that are happening and
make those connections right,like this podcast, right, I'm
about to come in with, like youknow you just talked about, like
this in terms of math, but like, if we think about restorative
justice, right, and whitesupremacy culture says like
(11:36):
there's only one right way to dothings, but that's not
necessarily allowing us toaddress the needs of people as
they show up in our spaces.
Right, you're talking about mathinstruction, but when we're
talking about one right way, oneway of being, there are lots of
students who are divergent fromthat.
And you know, in the quote,unquote law and order, strictly
(11:59):
hierarchical ways, that a lot ofclassroom instruction has
historically been taught.
Right, it doesn't leave spacefor those divergent pathways,
not just neurodivergent, butlike people show up in different
spaces, people show up with allkinds of things going on in
their lives into your learningspace, right, whether those are
your students, your colleagues,whoever, it is right.
(12:20):
And if you're just saying like,hey, this is our minute by
minute agenda of, like what'ssupposed to happen and you're
not addressing the underlyingneeds of some of the people in
your space, I like you're notgoing to be very productive,
right?
And so I know people are oftenthinking about restorative
justice in this way that, or,like you know, these adaptive
frameworks of teaching math inthis way, like, yes, but then
(12:41):
they'll just take advantage ofus who, when we're like,
catering to their need, right,but how do you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I have never known a great teacher that does this
from a critical perspective,that doesn't also think about, I
guess, higher notions ofknowledge, being able to
approach things from a higherperspective, that doesn't try to
meet students where they are,but then also build them up
higher than they maybepotentially think that they can
(13:14):
go, and that's the thing thatpeople need to know is like, all
right, let's focus on the mathexample.
When we talk about restorativejustice, everybody says, well,
if we just get in the circle andwe have a moderator, then we
have one person talking, thenext person talking, then that's
all it is.
Like that's not restorativejustice to me.
I like to think a little deeperin terms of the math, because
there were several civilizationsall across the world that had
(13:37):
their own levels of math, right?
And so when we talk aboutrestorative justice from that
perspective, we are restoringnotions that everybody gets to
be a mathematician through theirown lenses, through multiple
ways of doing this math, and so,like we had, for example, the
Mayans had 360 days in thecalendar.
How did we end up with 365?
So they ended up with 360, whichis divisible by any number of
(14:02):
numbers, right?
And so, as you think about thosefactors, you're like okay,
great, like that makes a lot ofsense.
We ended up with 365 because abunch of Rebecca Roman said this
is the way we do it, and I needa name, I need a month named
after myself, and so you got tomake room for that, and so we
ended up with 365 plus a quarterthat we need to add every
single year until the fourthyear, and then that's when we
get a leap year, which istotally asymmetrical to the way
(14:24):
that the Mayans did it and othercultures did it, but we ended
up with it, because whysupremacy culture?
What a lot of fun.
And so for me, like that's therestoration that I also seek as
a mathematician, to stick it tomyself, how can we get it so
that everybody has input intohow we develop math from here on
out, not just from a narrowsense of how we do this thing,
but from a broader sense of thisis the way that people make
(14:46):
sense of it, and we can allagree through discussion,
through formulation, through theways that we can agree on
something and come up with aconsensus about what the answer
is going to be, even if we getthere through multiple ways.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, I mean at the core of math.
Like you want students to beable to like master arithmetic,
of course, right, but like applyit to their everyday lives and
make sense of the world and helpproblem solve right, when we're
thinking about restorativejustice, like, it's very
important that you know that, inthe framework of a restorative
process, like we are asking whathappened, who was impacted and
(15:20):
how, and how do we adjust theneeds in order to make things
right, or right as possible?
It doesn't always necessarilyhave to follow a certain script,
it doesn't always have tohappen within the context of a
circle right, it's this way ofbeing.
And so, right, we're masteringthese frameworks to apply them
in whatever ways we can and youknow Gregory learns to do that
(15:42):
through a number of differentways right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right,
let's go.
Hey, oh, oh, oh, oh oh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, oh, oh, oh oh.
It looks like dance like theway to connect and reward and
bring joy into that classroom,build relationships in that
classroom happen to be throughdance, but that doesn't mean
that's the way that you, as anindividual teacher, in your
context, have to do it right.
I think I don't know if itcomes before this episode or in
an episode later, but, likethere's this incident where, you
(16:14):
know, jacob is trying to figureout how to relate to his
students when they're roasting.
Right, and he's not somebodywho, like, is very good at
roasting, so, like in order tomake connections, instead of,
like you know, roasting hisstudents for wearing the school
uniform, he's like, hey, we'regoing to roast historical
figures to help them figure out.
(16:35):
Like, oh, this is how I'm goingto remember.
You know things about AbrahamLincoln, or you know whoever it
was at the time.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, and actually I'm glad you mentioned that,
because A historical figuresought to be roasted.
I think we romanticized toomany historical figures instead
of thinking about the ways thatthey were complex human beings.
Some of them were fairly awfulall things considered, but you
know they let them legacy you,so we're supposed to honor that.
Like don't insult the dead.
I'm like, excuse me.
(17:04):
Like this person wasn't enslaveher.
This person was like doing aphilanderer.
This person has all sorts ofchildren that he had out of the
wet life, they had out of thewet life, so on and so forth.
This person was deleterious toour communities and so being
able to name those things, evenour heroes are worthy of us
having complex discussions about, because that allows us then to
(17:25):
say, even as imperfect humanbeings, we still get to do
greater things.
So that was a prominent thingfor me when it came to Jacob.
But then, secondly, you know, Ithink about how the structure
overall, schooling overall,almost pushes people to say this
is how you're supposed tobehave, this is how you're
supposed to go about yourbusiness, and so even if Gregory
(17:47):
did decide at some point, youknow what, like I actually want
to open up and be more fun, likewe're very fortunate that he
had an administrator who was,well, we'll say, supportive of
his dancing and so, like that'sone element.
But he had, you know, ogs whowere in the game were saying, oh
, we love that for you.
We see that you're doing great.
And of course, you know,principal is supportive in the
(18:09):
ways that she is, but there area plethora of schools out there
that are not as supportive.
And so if he decides to, youknow, just tip over and like,
step on that line, then itbecomes well, he's just having
way too much fun, he's notprofessional and he should be
focusing on the test and so onand so forth.
And so we should name thosestructures head on in terms of
(18:29):
the ways that we conductourselves, because
professionalism is always aroundand trying to tell us what we
can and can't do, even though weare still being professional,
in the ways that we express ourjoy, the way that we express our
love with children and ourcommunities more generally.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, you know, those rigid structures really do get
in the way of building authenticconnection, building
relationships and, you know,supporting learning.
I'm really reflective of anexperience that one of the
teachers who went through oursummer intensive learning link
in the show notes, link in thebio, link in the description
reflected to me right when she'slike hey, I'm trying to do this
(19:06):
within the context of myclassroom and I want to do
circles, but my administratorsare telling me no, right, like
you're just giving them aplatform to air their grievances
, which, like, don't you want tohear feedback from your
students about what's going onright?
What do you say to teachers whofind themselves in positions
where their administrators,their leadership, aren't
(19:28):
supportive of them showing up astheir full selves, integrating
their personalities, not justteaching to a test or a rigid
curriculum?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I mean.
So something that was handeddown to me was the idea of
subversive teaching.
Right, there was the notionthat and by subversive I totally
mean like, yes, breaking therules individually until you
conform a collective so that youcan actually open yourself up
more.
So in the first couple of yearsit was very much about, you
know, just quietly going aboutmy business, but then ensuring
(20:02):
that, oh yeah, like I have allthe standards and, yeah, I'm
doing all the content.
But then, like, once the doorwas closed and administrators
did what they need to do, then Iwas able to enact whatever I
needed to enact to reachstudents from a relationship
perspective, and so on and soforth.
And then, once that legacy iscultivated, what I recognize is
that students are the bestgossipers ever for you, and so
(20:25):
when they spread the word outinto the community, then they
tell their guardians, theircommunity members, their parents
, whatever that may look likefor them, and then they're able
to back you up whenever you doopen wide as far as, like the
ways that you approach this work.
And so you don't have to be assubversive as your years go by,
because you've alreadyestablished a notion that, yes,
like you're willing to risk itall for your students and you're
(20:49):
willing to risk it all for thepedagogy that you've espoused
and you're ready to open up foryour communities in the ways
that, like you do and you knowI've been somebody who got down
and dirty and said, yo, I'llteach the parents math so you
can see what your child is beingexposed to and they usually
back I don't say I've only had aproblem with two parents out of
like the thousand plus studentswho I've ever taught, and that
(21:09):
speaks volumes to the level ofcommunity building that I had to
do to ensure that that that wassustainable.
And so you're right in sayingthat there is a clear and
present danger when it comes toChina, like open up in this way.
But what I would say to them isyou have to start building it
slow.
From an individual'sperspective, you can start
immediately.
But once you've started likedoing that from a routine
(21:30):
perspective, let people talk foryou, let people spread out for
you and let people show like,let people tell everybody else
that like you're doing whatneeds to be done, and then the
administrator has a harder timetrying to do things to you,
trying to get at you for anynumber of reasons, and you know
they've tried with me but theynever succeeded.
And good on us for for having ateacher that could still teach
(21:52):
kids.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about a conversation with
I that I had with a personnamed Asha on this restorative
justice life our other podcastand you know she ended up losing
her job because of some of thethings that, like, she was doing
in order to advocate for theneeds of her students.
Right, and like I don't want todismiss the risk that there is
(22:15):
in doing this, I also don't wantto encourage people to go into
these kinds of subversiveteaching methods with a savior
mentality.
Right, when you're talkingabout going slow, we want to
make sure that, like, yes, likewe're going to stand in our
values, we're going to stand inour principles, but, like we
also need to be responsive to,like, our community's needs.
It can't just be like, you know, Jose went and learned all this
(22:38):
stuff and now Jose is going tolike be this like maverick lone
ranger person who, like, isgoing to change everything.
Right, Like that's not whatwe're advocating for either.
Right, I think like there's likeheavy gene energy, which we're
going to get to in a minute,like with something like that.
But you know, doing this workwith community, right,
introducing these frameworks formath, introducing these
(23:01):
frameworks for restorativejustice right, letting the work
speak for itself, continue topractice, continue to be in
those routines and allowingpeople to you know, see that
work, invite them into.
That is the way to like, slowlycoalition build and make change
.
I know that there are lots ofcomplicating dynamics when it
(23:23):
comes to the politics, thebureaucracy of schools and, you
know, with such high turnoverand people transitioning out of
leadership, people transitioningfrom school to school, those
things make things all the moredifficult.
But if we want to see thischange right, it takes people
investing in their communities,being invested in these
principles and sticking it outfor the long haul.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That's right.
None of this work is perfect.
I'd also suggest, too, that wedefinitely are not trying to
save children.
We're trying to have childrensave themselves in the way of
being sustainable, in the way ofallowing students to fully be
in their power, because theyalready have it.
It's just a matter of lettingthat being cultivated and then
showing them that, yes, likeit's not a coincidence, for
(24:08):
example, that over the 15 yearsthat I taught, my students were
the most likely to write thatpetition letter, to go beat
those activists speak up toadministrators and to teachers
who they didn't feel like wereactually fully being thoughtful
with them, and it's not anythingthat I particularly did, like
yes, fine, okay.
But there's also the part whereI said yo, you are allowed to be
(24:30):
your fullest self and you aregiven permission to do so.
You don't have to get it fromme per se, but if you feel like
you need to be your fullest selfin this moment, by all means.
And I think, once they saw thatexample, I don't think they
gave themselves anything lessthan what they felt like they
deserved, and so that's a reallyprominent thing for us to think
about too.
But it's like we have to becomeas useless as possible by the
(24:54):
end of the year so that they cando what they need to do.
Even in my middle school side,I was like, yeah, like I don't
need to be that person for you,you can do it all on your own.
It's just a matter of givingthe schools to do so.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Now back to the show.
There are a couple otherdynamics at play in this episode
.
Right, we have Gregory not onlyexperiencing like the struggle
in the classroom, but like he'sstill wrestling with should I be
(25:26):
here?
Even though people areexpecting people, his dad is
expecting something differentfrom him.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I actually applied to a few other principal jobs at
other schools.
I'm just waiting to hear aboutit.
Why don't you come work at thelandscape company with me?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
This school idea.
I don't get it.
You've been trying to become aprincipal since you left college
.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Come do a real man's job.
Time to grow up, Gregory.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
There is often external pressure about how you
should be professionally or youknow, even in the context of the
classroom, not just from schoolleadership, from administration
.
How have you navigated thatover your career?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, you know, that's what I love about this
episode too is not just thinkingabout Gregory, but also about
Janine.
And, frankly, like everybody,there is like when you know who
you are as a person versus whoyou are as a teacher, then that
could be really powerful for you, because you start and this is
for me too so, like I thoughtabout like who I was as a person
(26:30):
, and until I learned that thenit was going to be harder for me
to understand who I was as theteacher, because you don't know
who you're going to be as ateacher until you're like face,
you know face, with 30 faces whocould potentially start a
revolution against you rightthen and there, and in one
particular instance that'shappened Sure, like I got to eat
(26:50):
that one.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
But then there were times when I thought, like you
don't get away with, just likegoing over that.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Okay, fine, fine.
So in that time I felt like Ithought I had it as far as
teaching is concerned.
I thought I was good, I thoughtI was doing what I was supposed
to do and like I was.
It was my maybe my second,third year in teaching, so I was
still formulating what I wantedto accomplish as far as, like
my own teaching methods areconcerned.
But then I came across a classwhen the dynamics interest
(27:22):
student were not very positive,and then for myself I was trying
to navigate what that wouldlook like, plus the ever
changing leadership and allthings that were happening.
Personally and as a result,because I wasn't thinking about
where I was as a person, Ididn't feel like my fullest self
as a teacher with that group ofparticular students.
(27:45):
So, even as I tried all themethods that I had, I had two
other classes and it worked wellfor your two classes.
It didn't work well for thisparticular class, and so I found
myself at the receiving end ofa lot of like the things that we
find to be negative, which I'mlike okay, like I gotta take
responsibility, like that'sabout me, like I'm thinking too,
(28:07):
like that's episode two.
It is the fault of the teacherand those of us who are good at
our craft, we blame ourselvesfirst for when issues happen in
our classroom, like that's thething.
And so, over time, like weeventually got some it was, you
know, waves and valves, waves,sure, but I found myself at the
end thinking I needed to bebetter as a person and I need to
(28:28):
be reflective and stay on thatpractice so that I can be better
for the students.
And I think, from then on, Inever had an issue with full
classes, no matter what washappening, no matter what the
context was, because I foundmyself to say, you know what,
like there is the person who isout there.
I'm listening to rap, I'm likegoing to these different
concerts, I'm doing all thesegreat things out there, but then
(28:48):
inside the classroom, I hadpower over students, but I
didn't recognize that who I wasas a person was like separate
from who I was as a teacher, andwithout trying to find a way to
marry the two and assure thatthey were as close to the people
who I wanted to be as possible,then I was going to be at a
loss.
(29:08):
And so that's what I find withGregory, that's what I find with
Janine it's like knowing whoyou are, Like, and even though
things that hurt right, likethere are things that really are
painful to recognize withinourselves as people and then
that can be multiplied when weget into the classroom, because
that hurt ends up being a thing,that because part of our
pedagogy are.
We not even seeing it.
We're all this and we see thatwith so many of our people too,
(29:31):
like they think that you knowthey've resolved whatever that
is that they're dealing with athome, but then when they get
into the classroom it becomeseven wider, like that pain
becomes even harder to deal with, and so I would add that too.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are lots of examples over
the course of the show where wesee, like, the things that are
going on in the outside lives ofthe teachers impact the way
that they show up for theirstudents, right.
But you know, bringing it backto restorative justice, you know
Kay Prandtis and Kailin BoySwatts and developed these seven
core assumptions of restorativejustice, built on indigenous
(30:09):
traditions and wisdom from lotsof different places, and one of
them is you know the true selfand everyone is good, wise and
powerful, and you know thatgoodness, that wisdom, that
power is gonna manifestdifferently for everyone, right.
But how do we bring that intoour classrooms in our unique
ways, right?
If you don't know how thatmanifests for you as a person in
(30:32):
general, it's gonna be reallyhard for you to manifest that in
the classroom because, like,you might feel like, oh, I just
have to be like this, don'tsmile till December, these are
the rules, do it because I saidso.
Person not allowing forconnection, right, and that's
not what we want.
You know Janine is also goingthrough a journey in this
(30:54):
episode, right, both in herpersonal relationship, which I
think we'll leave out of thisconversation, but you know she's
also in this place where she isreally trying to connect with
her coworkers.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I told her we're work friends, and now she's doing
this.
Well, we are work friends.
What's the problem?
No, no, no, no.
We are a family.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Work.
Family is a very, very touchysubject to broach right, because
, as much as we want a schoolcommunity, we want colleagues
who care about each other, whoare there for each other, who,
in some instances, will go aboveand beyond.
It can't be an expectation thateveryone is gonna show up with
(31:34):
their full selves and devote allof their energy to being like
your friend, your everything,within the context of the school
building.
People should go home, peopleshould have better boundaries,
and so, as we were watching thedynamics play out between Janine
and Jacob, and then, likeBarbara, melissa Gregory, all of
them trying to bond with Janineat her at the behest of, like
(31:59):
you know, you don't get thischicken if you don't come and
participate.
What?
was going on for you.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
It works.
I think there's something to besaid for the opposite side of
that too.
So, whereas Gregory is tryingto manifest strict, rigid
professionalism because his daddoesn't think of his profession
as a profession, janine seems tobe stuck in the static mode
where she everything around herneeds to be happy and joyous and
(32:31):
there needs to be, like, ahappily ever after for her,
because that's how she's learnedhow to navigate life generally.
And so, like, teaching is justso much more complicated than
that, which is why, like, theOGs are so powerful in this,
like they fully recognize justhow complicated it is, and yet
they are their most authenticselves by allowing that
(32:53):
complication to be what it is.
So for me, I feel like when Ilook at Janine, I say okay, like
she's struggling right now, notbecause she wants this to be
more rigid, but because shewants this to be super, super
happy, and you know you're happyfor her.
You're like, oh, she's great,like that's dope, and like when
hurtful incidents happen, shedoesn't have another way to like
(33:17):
, reckon with that withinherself and then reflect that
and ensure that she can continueto strive.
She's probably one of theteachers that people keep
talking about, too, that justleave very quickly because they
get burnt out, because they'rejust so like.
It's kind of like going 120like over a road for X amount of
time and then not being able toslow down and take a shift and
(33:37):
say, hey, like where am I goingwith this?
And then my emotions too highthat I'm not recognizing what's
happening around me.
And so there is a way to paceourselves throughout the course
of our 200 day school year thatallows us to continue to let
that joy flow throughout.
It's kind of like a slow simmerinstead of trying to go with a
fast boil.
So these are things that areworth recognizing as well,
(34:00):
especially as we're thinkingabout, you know, being more
restorative for ourselves.
We have to be able to exemplifythat for everybody, like allow
that full person to show up inthe ways that we can.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, this manifests across, you know, ginny and
storyline in this season andlike, even going into next,
which I know you haven't watchedit just yet but like the word
that comes up for me when I seeGinny is like toxic positivity
and like you know, we see later,like the way that, like this,
like the roots of this for herright, like this is an adaptive
(34:30):
behavior to navigate conflictand things that aren't going
right in her life.
Like she's trying to like createhappiness and peace, like in
like all the spaces that she can.
People aren't always receptiveto that right and, again, you
need to meet people where you'reat.
Like you can express your needsto folks, right, but they also
(34:50):
have the right to say no, right,and you can't try to coerce
them into doing your bidding,otherwise it'll just breed
resentment.
And then you know it's playedfor laps, like blackmailing
people with food in this space,but like you know, one of course
, food is a powerful connectorand I don't wanna like belittle
the power of that, but like theway that Jeanine went about
(35:12):
doing that, like ended upbackfiring on her when we get
the chicken, when you tell asecret.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
My cousin turned on the hit on Bobby Kennedy.
Not that kind of secret and wewrite it down.
Jeanine, please just give methe food Guys, you get the wings
when you say the things.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
They were like they weren't, her colleagues weren't
there with, like, goodintentions, right, and so they
ended up, you know, clowning herfor, like the things that she
was doing and she felt even morealienated and so, like even her
efforts to make thoseconnections build that quote,
unquote, work, family, becauseshe was going at this with 120
miles an hour, like not takinginto consideration the needs of
(35:48):
other people, turned back on her.
And, of course, you know, withinthe arc of a 21 minute sitcom,
right, there is some kind ofresolution at the end where, you
know, gregory affirms her rightand like she does make peace
with Jacob because of tellingher about his boyfriend at the
beginning of the show.
But you know, there is smalllearnings that Jeanine is taking
(36:10):
over the course of this showand, you know, I think it's a
really important lesson forpeople who are wanting to do
good, wanting to buildrelationships, that, like you
can't force people to do this,right, you can invite them, but
cramming it down their necks isonly going to breed resentment
and like gonna look bad on thework that you're trying to put
(36:30):
out in the world.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
That's right.
And at least we think a lotabout, well, two parts.
The first is that there's thissaying around New York City, but
then more generally, about howNew Yorkers are, where we're not
nice but we're kind.
So like being nice presupposesthat we're just going to be
happy and smiling.
I mean, you talk about the tossand positivity.
(36:53):
There's a lot of that.
But then, you know, being kindmeans like, what are your acts
like?
And then what is your?
What does the energy tell youabout this person?
And so, you know, we wentthrough a whole era I would say
in the mid, I would even say2010, just around that time when
everybody wants to throw anicebreaker at everybody and our
professional developments wereall about like just putting a
(37:14):
whole suite of ice breakers infront of everybody and saying,
hey, like we're going to be ableto fix teams by ensuring that
we build trust very quickly.
And you know, once we get theseicebreakers together, then
everyone's going to be happy andwe're going to have a joyous, I
guess, workspace.
And then, of course, when thatdidn't happen, then people said,
well, let's just go right backto testing, because that's what
works for everybody and that'snot what we're trying to do here
(37:35):
.
And secondly, yes, like thereis something to be said for,
like people actually readingJanine and saying you know what?
Like we were doing this notjust for the chicken, but
because we know that you'retrying your hardest but you're
really not taken intoconsideration, that we're all
each some of us have seen thisbefore and those of us who
haven't, we're not in the moodright now and there are things
(37:57):
that we need to withhold rightnow because we can't fully
express what we need to say toyou about any number of things
that we see about you, andthat's why I think that Jacob
Peace was so evident of thisnotion that you know, when you
have a work friend, it happenswith every school, right.
Like there are things about usthat you know we try not to like
(38:20):
.
Let everybody see, even thoughwe want to be our fullest person
in the school, we recognizethat the structure overall is
sometimes really that it'sserious to our own personhood,
and so being able to have thatdeep, deep trust means that it's
going to take a little while.
It's not going to be just acouple of icebreakers and you
know, danny's chicken, it'sgoing to be like oh, I want to
(38:40):
be able to read you.
I want to be able to know thatI can trust you with my heart as
well as my head.
I want to be able to spend timeoutside of this structure
that's telling us what to dowith how to do it before we can
actually build somethingtogether.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, you know, the icebreakers and the chicken is
like hey, do you?
Can you do arithmetic rightInstead of like?
Do you understand the conceptsbehind this, right?
Can you apply this critically,right?
That's not to again talk downon providing food for people as
a way to connect.
It's not to talk down onicebreakers as a way to build
(39:14):
relationships, but again, beingattentive to the needs of people
right in front of you and beingresponsive to those, while
still, you know, advocating foryourself, is what all of this
restorative way of being about.
How are we building,strengthening and, of course,
repairing relationships to thisplace where we're in equity and
(39:35):
trust right?
Both with colleagues, both thestudents, families, all of it?
Oh, my goodness, so much good,before we start to transition
out anything else that you wantto highlight.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I would just like to highlight that there is
definitely a movement right nowtowards hiring more male
teachers of color, specificallyback male teachers, but any
number of male teachers of color, which I believe is at around
two, three percent of theprofession, and there is
something to be said for how wecould become more expansive with
notions of maleness to ensurethat, like everyone feels like
(40:12):
they belong in the school.
Noting that Gregory's characteris supposed to be the
prototypical black male teacher,the one who comes in and
aspires to be a principal, andthat's worth complicating just a
bit, because we do have thecreative profession that allows
for everybody to feel that theycould be in their fullest selves
and ensure that we can talkabout teaching profession more
(40:35):
expansively so that everyonefeels like they're getting what
they need professionally as wellas personally about this thing,
because it's not just about,like, whether or not his father
disapproves of what they'redoing this.
What is his impact on children?
What is his pedagogy speakingto when it comes to the children
that are in front of him and inhis charge?
And then, should he eventuallybecome a principal, what has he
(40:56):
learned from his OGs, who havebeen asked to both be women, to
be able to say, hey, like I canactually do this whole thing
better and think about thiswhole experience better for
everybody.
I want to see him look leavingbehind.
So things to note here too.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, I mean, we get, definitely get to see that
growth and trajectory over theseasons.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Abba Elementary, join us
for a live event on Monday, july31.
Link with more info in thedescription.
(41:30):
As we transition out, I like toask a couple questions of
everyone who comes on thispodcast so you get to pitch to
Quinta, and the writers of AbbaElementary right now cast Jose
Vilsen as a character on thisshow.
Who would you be?
What role would you want toplay?
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I would like to play the angry substitute we need the
angry substitute somewhere inthere and I'm appreciative of so
like that would be a completecontrast to who I was for the
majority of my tenure.
But I would love to be cast assomebody who comes in and super
(42:09):
upset and doesn't understand whyhe's there anyway.
And then, of course, like thearc would be well, you know,
once the doors close, like you,the kids mysteriously just
behave for him Like there's justsomething about it, and then he
opens the door again and he'sangry and he's huffy, puffy.
And then do the people knowthat?
Like he's been through anynumber of schools throughout
Philadelphia and this has beenhis experiences, so he's trying
(42:31):
to navigate what that looks likeand then eventually say, okay,
well, you know, I've done mytime, I'm angry and I'm just
going to go to the next school,yada, yada.
But then the kids are like goget him, go get him, he's great,
and so you know things thatwould be pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Oh man, you know, what was coming up for me is
like key and peel vibes ofsubstitute teacher.
I could see that, but likegiving that person giving that
person a redemption arc would bereally, really beautiful.
So, jack Wellin, balaki and aIran, you know we love you.
Oh man, beautiful, beautiful.
(43:08):
Well, you know you mentionedlike all the work that you're
doing.
Tell people how you can.
They can support you and yourwork in the ways that you want
to be supported.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Thank you so much for that.
First, of course, I am the JoseWilson on any and all social
media platforms.
The Jose Wilson comm is myplatform, blogging so on and so
forth but of course, I am theexecutive director of edu color,
and so edu color MVMT is onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
for the time being and of course, as we grow into a full
(43:39):
nonprofit, then we'll beexpanding into more spaces.
But if you'd like to join themovement, that's where we're at
edu color MVMT.
And, of course, we're superhappy to be part of any platform
or any number of movements thatalso espouse racial justice in
the ways that they do.
So let's keep it going.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Beautiful and, of course, all the links to connect
with Jose and his work arebelow.
Again, jose, thank you so muchfor sharing the wisdom, the
stories, the experiences.
We'll be back breaking down thenext episode of Ava Elementary
very soon.
Until then, take care.
Heyo, david here.
Restored of Justice Reflectionswas created as a video first
medium because we're includingvideo clips from the shows we're
talking about.
You can still hear our fullconversation here with the audio
from the clip, but for the fullexperience and to see our
beautiful faces, head over toour YouTube page link below.
If you're only going podcastsor your thing, please bear with
(00:20):
the mentions of video and clipsand use your imagination.
Enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Look on the bright side.
Now we get to all stay insideand have lunch together, which
will be nice because, despitewhat some people say, we all
love each other like one big,happy family.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome back to Restored of Justice Reflections.
I'm David Ryan Barcaga Castrohere, so all five names are all
the ancestors.
And today I'm here with JoseWilson to dive deep into the
restorative themes or lackthereof found in season one,
episode eight of ABC's AbbaElementary work family.
As always, our conversationhere is not a critique of the
story or production choices ofthe creators, but we will
highlight how restorativejustice can apply to situations
(01:06):
like setting boundaries withcolleagues, life as a blackmail
educator and connecting withstudents.
Before we get to teachingcontent.
Hopefully, this will give yousome insight about how to apply
restorative ways of being intoyour life in and out of the
classroom.
If you want to take a deeperlook at applying restorative
justice to your life, join ourInner Circle community to
connect with RJ-mindedindividuals and get bonus
content.
Deepen your practice bychecking out our courses and if
(01:29):
you want to see this work inyour school or organization,
invite us for coaching ortraining on implementing this
work, of course, links toeverything down below.
Now let's get to it.
Jose, it is so good to be withyou.
I'm really excited to be havingthis conversation about this
episode specifically with you,but before we do that, tell the
(01:49):
folks who you are and yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Thanks for having me, david.
My name is Jose Wilson.
I'm the executive director ofEduColor, an organization
dedicated to race and socialjustice issues.
I'm also a full-time doctoralstudent at Teachers College,
columbia University, studyingsociology and education, and, of
course, I was a veteran mathteacher in Washington Heights,
new York City, for the betterpart of 15 years, as well as a
(02:14):
math instructional course.
So I come at this with multiplehats, not to mention a father,
husband and all the activistsand all these other, I guess,
denominations, but just happy tobe here today.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, I reached out andwhen I asked you what episode
you wanted to talk about, it wasthis one you were like, very
clear, like this is exactly whatI want to talk about.
Tell us about your relationshipwith the show Abbott Elementary
.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Abbott Elementary is probably the best show that I've
seen on a network around publiceducation since Boston Public,
which if you were alive andconscious around that time then
you would have known.
That was a really good show andI think it only lasted,
unfortunately, four seasons.
I know that a lot of peoplehighlight the wire too, as I
(03:04):
think it was season four wherethey had the education portion,
but generally speaking, thisshow actually more thoroughly
does the best job I've seenabout talking about the actual
profession and to pour in ourbest hopes and aspirations for
what we want the profession tobe in a way that I hadn't seen
in a real long time.
(03:24):
So I was grateful for the showand of course, I've been waiting
for the season two finale tojust so I can actually watch it
in full.
So I haven't actually watchedany episodes from season two
until, like, I actually got tosee that season one and full,
and now that it's all done Icould see season two as well.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
This episode work family was so full of moments to
talk about Again.
Summary courtesy of Wikipedia.
On the large part, we haveJanine being upset that Jacob
only thinks of her as a workfriend and she tries to build
better relationships with hercoworkers through some community
(04:01):
building, coerced by some food,some chicken.
At the same time, barbara andMelissa are trying to help
Gregory with his teachingmethods after his class is bound
to be underperforming in math.
On the side, janine has alsoenlisted to wreak her boyfriend
to perform an anti at the antidrug program at her school.
(04:22):
Gregory also receives a phonecall from his dad who is
advising Gregory that he shouldmove on from substitute teaching
at Abbott.
Where do you want to start?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
We could start anywhere.
I mean, the reason why I wantedthis episode so badly was
because I felt like Gregory wasso reflective of my experience
as a black male educator in ourschools and so we could
potentially start from there.
That'd be great.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, let's go.
You know, Gregory we see inthis episode and over the course
of the season so far has beencoming to grips with his role as
a teacher.
Right, we've seen him likebuying, like you know what, I'm
going to stick it out here forthe year Right, but he's still
struggling in some ways to bethe teacher that he wants to be,
(05:11):
be the teacher that hisstudents deserve.
Right, we've seen efforts atrelationship building in the
past, but what about his journeyin this episode resonated with
you?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
There's something about how teachers have been
trained over the course of thelast I would just say century,
like after my research, butreally like to give a personal
perspective.
We often get taught don't smileuntil December.
Right, like that's been acommon phrase, like a stone at
us, or that we have to find away to depersonalize the work in
order for us to truly tap intowhat students do.
(05:45):
But what this episode does isit flips that notion on his head
and says here is somebody whois constantly professional, but
yet it's not connected tostudents in the ways that he
desires or that his colleaguesare pointing out for him.
And so this episode says no,actually you should try to
inject as much of your personalself as you can, or you know, as
(06:06):
as you're slowly melting thatice around you, that you're able
to actually build thoseconnections with students in
order for them to learn.
Right, like that goes hand inhand.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Right.
Yeah, we see him likerepeatedly drilling his students
on their their math problems inefforts to teach to the test.
Right, because they are quoteunquote, underperforming.
Right, but we all know the oldadage like people don't care how
much you know, or like what youcan do for them until they know
how much you care, right.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Farmer Hank has five turkeys, then he buys four more.
How many turkeys does FarmerHank have?
Are any turkeys pregnant Guys?
Let's focus.
Ok, you know what we're goingto do more math drills.
So the whole class isunderperforming specifically in
math.
So we're taking time in recessto practice and get those scores
up.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Let's let's focus in on just the math of this and is
not really connecting with thestudents.
Fortunately for Gregory rightthere are veteran teachers in
the space who are like here.
Let me put you on game a littlebit.
And so, in the conversationsthat he had with Melissa and
Barbara, what was it that stoodout to you?
What was it that youappreciated?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
There was.
I mean, obviously there's theculminating part where he
finally starts like seeing anddancing in accordance to the
math itself, but Melissa'sportion where she also mentioned
Um.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Farmer Hank has seven turkeys.
Then he buys six more.
How many turkeys does FarmerHank now have?
Is one of the turkeys pregnant?
One of my kids asked the samething because it's a good
question and it shows thatthey're using critical thinking.
It's irrelevant no, it might besilly to you, but to them it
might be an important questionthat if they don't get it
answered, they can't focus anddiversions are an important part
(07:50):
of learning, and that was oneelement of it.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
But then also recognizing that, like that,
those sorts of dynamics wherestudents ask divergent questions
are actually what we wantstudents to do in math class
more generally, right, becauseisn't that where the part like
that's the part where weactually start seeing the real
life connections and them makingsense of the problem and them
being able to, like, have anynumber of divergent thoughts
that might get them into a spacethat allows them to see
(08:15):
themselves within the mathitself?
And so when Melissa's like, no,actually you want those
questions, because that meansthat they're critically thinking
, like both of the veteranteachers were able to name that
fairly readily, and so that forme, connected so well because I
was like oh, so you know,instead of this very rigid way
of thinking about how we teachmath and how students is
(08:35):
supposed to memorize X, y and Z,we want them to make those
connections more often, even ifthings as simple as 13 minus
seven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, you know, I think about the dynamic that you
mentioned earlier, like don'tsmile till December, right, or
like teach the test, like theseare things that are like very
much a part of a lot of teachereducation, especially over the
last, especially like over thelast century.
Things are changing a littlebit now where there is a little
bit more focus on relationshipand building connection in some
(09:05):
teacher education programs, butI know that there are teachers
out there, and new teachers aswell, who are like no, like this
is the way, this is not to makea mandalorian reference, but
this is the way that things havebeen historically done and
these are the things that I needto do.
If I give them any leeway, right, they're going to take
advantage of that and hijack thelearning of all the students
(09:27):
and we're just going to go downthese rabbit holes like, ok, but
what if it was a chicken?
What if it was a donkey?
And like, then we've justturned this into a biology
lesson and they're still notgetting their testing.
And how do you draw the line?
How do you set those parameters?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
The best part of what I've seen in my own math
teaching was recognizing that wehave a responsibility to take
those divergent thoughts andkind of reframe them towards the
ultimate goal.
Like we can always do a thingwhere we say, ok, let's get
distracted, let's get silly,that's all one and good.
And then once I've you know, Iguess quench that thirst, for
(10:05):
lack of a better metaphor I canthen say, oh so, now that we
have all that in mind, like whatdoes this look like in this
context?
And then being able to buildthat into the lesson.
So people too often, forexample, want their lessons to
go minute by minute and insteadof thinking about what are some,
what is the ultimate goal thatI'm trying to achieve with this?
And then being able to workbackwards from there and then
(10:28):
say to ourselves you know what?
Like, maybe this got distractedwith all sorts of like animals
within the farm that they weretrying to count.
But like, if I was able to thensay, all right, now that you
have all this in mind andreframe them and redirect them
towards what we're trying to do,then they're actually all the
better for it, as opposed to,you know, constructing the road
(10:49):
straight up and down and sayingyou cannot diverge from this
road.
Then all of a sudden you findthat you find that they
ultimately push themselves outof the road all together and
don't even want to get to thegoal with you because they can't
trust you, because they thinkthat you're not going to allow
them to do the X, y and Z.
So if you know how to reframepermission, then you'll be in
(11:10):
real good shape as far as anynumber of academic goals.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean and I think that does take a quote,
unquote mastery or at least likesolid foundation in your
content.
Right, so you can take thethings that are happening and
make those connections right,like this podcast, right, I'm
about to come in with, like youknow you just talked about, like
this in terms of math, but like, if we think about restorative
justice, right, and whitesupremacy culture says like
(11:36):
there's only one right way to dothings, but that's not
necessarily allowing us toaddress the needs of people as
they show up in our spaces.
Right, you're talking about mathinstruction, but when we're
talking about one right way, oneway of being, there are lots of
students who are divergent fromthat.
And you know, in the quote,unquote law and order, strictly
(11:59):
hierarchical ways, that a lot ofclassroom instruction has
historically been taught.
Right, it doesn't leave spacefor those divergent pathways,
not just neurodivergent, butlike people show up in different
spaces, people show up with allkinds of things going on in
their lives into your learningspace, right, whether those are
your students, your colleagues,whoever, it is right.
(12:20):
And if you're just saying like,hey, this is our minute by
minute agenda of, like what'ssupposed to happen and you're
not addressing the underlyingneeds of some of the people in
your space, I like you're notgoing to be very productive,
right?
And so I know people are oftenthinking about restorative
justice in this way that, or,like you know, these adaptive
frameworks of teaching math inthis way, like, yes, but then
(12:41):
they'll just take advantage ofus who, when we're like,
catering to their need, right,but how do you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
I have never known a great teacher that does this
from a critical perspective,that doesn't also think about, I
guess, higher notions ofknowledge, being able to
approach things from a higherperspective, that doesn't try to
meet students where they are,but then also build them up
higher than they maybepotentially think that they can
(13:14):
go, and that's the thing thatpeople need to know is like, all
right, let's focus on the mathexample.
When we talk about restorativejustice, everybody says, well,
if we just get in the circle andwe have a moderator, then we
have one person talking, thenext person talking, then that's
all it is.
Like that's not restorativejustice to me.
I like to think a little deeperin terms of the math, because
there were several civilizationsall across the world that had
(13:37):
their own levels of math, right?
And so when we talk aboutrestorative justice from that
perspective, we are restoringnotions that everybody gets to
be a mathematician through theirown lenses, through multiple
ways of doing this math, and so,like we had, for example, the
Mayans had 360 days in thecalendar.
How did we end up with 365?
So they ended up with 360, whichis divisible by any number of
(14:02):
numbers, right?
And so, as you think about thosefactors, you're like okay,
great, like that makes a lot ofsense.
We ended up with 365 because abunch of Rebecca Roman said this
is the way we do it, and I needa name, I need a month named
after myself, and so you got tomake room for that, and so we
ended up with 365 plus a quarterthat we need to add every
single year until the fourthyear, and then that's when we
get a leap year, which istotally asymmetrical to the way
(14:24):
that the Mayans did it and othercultures did it, but we ended
up with it, because whysupremacy culture?
What a lot of fun.
And so for me, like that's therestoration that I also seek as
a mathematician, to stick it tomyself, how can we get it so
that everybody has input intohow we develop math from here on
out, not just from a narrowsense of how we do this thing,
but from a broader sense of thisis the way that people make
(14:46):
sense of it, and we can allagree through discussion,
through formulation, through theways that we can agree on
something and come up with aconsensus about what the answer
is going to be, even if we getthere through multiple ways.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, I mean at the core of math.
Like you want students to beable to like master arithmetic,
of course, right, but like applyit to their everyday lives and
make sense of the world and helpproblem solve right, when we're
thinking about restorativejustice, like, it's very
important that you know that, inthe framework of a restorative
process, like we are asking whathappened, who was impacted and
(15:20):
how, and how do we adjust theneeds in order to make things
right, or right as possible?
It doesn't always necessarilyhave to follow a certain script,
it doesn't always have tohappen within the context of a
circle right, it's this way ofbeing.
And so, right, we're masteringthese frameworks to apply them
in whatever ways we can and youknow Gregory learns to do that
(15:42):
through a number of differentways right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right,
let's go.
Hey, oh, oh, oh, oh oh.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, oh, oh, oh oh.
It looks like dance like theway to connect and reward and
bring joy into that classroom,build relationships in that
classroom happen to be throughdance, but that doesn't mean
that's the way that you, as anindividual teacher, in your
context, have to do it right.
I think I don't know if itcomes before this episode or in
an episode later, but, likethere's this incident where, you
(16:14):
know, jacob is trying to figureout how to relate to his
students when they're roasting.
Right, and he's not somebodywho, like, is very good at
roasting, so, like in order tomake connections, instead of,
like you know, roasting hisstudents for wearing the school
uniform, he's like, hey, we'regoing to roast historical
figures to help them figure out.
(16:35):
Like, oh, this is how I'm goingto remember.
You know things about AbrahamLincoln, or you know whoever it
was at the time.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, and actually I'm glad you mentioned that,
because A historical figuresought to be roasted.
I think we romanticized toomany historical figures instead
of thinking about the ways thatthey were complex human beings.
Some of them were fairly awfulall things considered, but you
know they let them legacy you,so we're supposed to honor that.
Like don't insult the dead.
I'm like, excuse me.
(17:04):
Like this person wasn't enslaveher.
This person was like doing aphilanderer.
This person has all sorts ofchildren that he had out of the
wet life, they had out of thewet life, so on and so forth.
This person was deleterious toour communities and so being
able to name those things, evenour heroes are worthy of us
having complex discussions about, because that allows us then to
(17:25):
say, even as imperfect humanbeings, we still get to do
greater things.
So that was a prominent thingfor me when it came to Jacob.
But then, secondly, you know, Ithink about how the structure
overall, schooling overall,almost pushes people to say this
is how you're supposed tobehave, this is how you're
supposed to go about yourbusiness, and so even if Gregory
(17:47):
did decide at some point, youknow what, like I actually want
to open up and be more fun, likewe're very fortunate that he
had an administrator who was,well, we'll say, supportive of
his dancing and so, like that'sone element.
But he had, you know, ogs whowere in the game were saying, oh
, we love that for you.
We see that you're doing great.
And of course, you know,principal is supportive in the
(18:09):
ways that she is, but there area plethora of schools out there
that are not as supportive.
And so if he decides to, youknow, just tip over and like,
step on that line, then itbecomes well, he's just having
way too much fun, he's notprofessional and he should be
focusing on the test and so onand so forth.
And so we should name thosestructures head on in terms of
(18:29):
the ways that we conductourselves, because
professionalism is always aroundand trying to tell us what we
can and can't do, even though weare still being professional,
in the ways that we express ourjoy, the way that we express our
love with children and ourcommunities more generally.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, you know, those rigid structures really do get
in the way of building authenticconnection, building
relationships and, you know,supporting learning.
I'm really reflective of anexperience that one of the
teachers who went through oursummer intensive learning link
in the show notes, link in thebio, link in the description
reflected to me right when she'slike hey, I'm trying to do this
(19:06):
within the context of myclassroom and I want to do
circles, but my administratorsare telling me no, right, like
you're just giving them aplatform to air their grievances
, which, like, don't you want tohear feedback from your
students about what's going onright?
What do you say to teachers whofind themselves in positions
where their administrators,their leadership, aren't
(19:28):
supportive of them showing up astheir full selves, integrating
their personalities, not justteaching to a test or a rigid
curriculum?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I mean.
So something that was handeddown to me was the idea of
subversive teaching.
Right, there was the notionthat and by subversive I totally
mean like, yes, breaking therules individually until you
conform a collective so that youcan actually open yourself up
more.
So in the first couple of yearsit was very much about, you
know, just quietly going aboutmy business, but then ensuring
(20:02):
that, oh yeah, like I have allthe standards and, yeah, I'm
doing all the content.
But then, like, once the doorwas closed and administrators
did what they need to do, then Iwas able to enact whatever I
needed to enact to reachstudents from a relationship
perspective, and so on and soforth.
And then, once that legacy iscultivated, what I recognize is
that students are the bestgossipers ever for you, and so
(20:25):
when they spread the word outinto the community, then they
tell their guardians, theircommunity members, their parents
, whatever that may look likefor them, and then they're able
to back you up whenever you doopen wide as far as, like the
ways that you approach this work.
And so you don't have to be assubversive as your years go by,
because you've alreadyestablished a notion that, yes,
like you're willing to risk itall for your students and you're
(20:49):
willing to risk it all for thepedagogy that you've espoused
and you're ready to open up foryour communities in the ways
that, like you do and you knowI've been somebody who got down
and dirty and said, yo, I'llteach the parents math so you
can see what your child is beingexposed to and they usually
back I don't say I've only had aproblem with two parents out of
like the thousand plus studentswho I've ever taught, and that
(21:09):
speaks volumes to the level ofcommunity building that I had to
do to ensure that that that wassustainable.
And so you're right in sayingthat there is a clear and
present danger when it comes toChina, like open up in this way.
But what I would say to them isyou have to start building it
slow.
From an individual'sperspective, you can start
immediately.
But once you've started likedoing that from a routine
(21:30):
perspective, let people talk foryou, let people spread out for
you and let people show like,let people tell everybody else
that like you're doing whatneeds to be done, and then the
administrator has a harder timetrying to do things to you,
trying to get at you for anynumber of reasons, and you know
they've tried with me but theynever succeeded.
And good on us for for having ateacher that could still teach
(21:52):
kids.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about a conversation with
I that I had with a personnamed Asha on this restorative
justice life our other podcastand you know she ended up losing
her job because of some of thethings that, like, she was doing
in order to advocate for theneeds of her students.
Right, and like I don't want todismiss the risk that there is
(22:15):
in doing this, I also don't wantto encourage people to go into
these kinds of subversiveteaching methods with a savior
mentality.
Right, when you're talkingabout going slow, we want to
make sure that, like, yes, likewe're going to stand in our
values, we're going to stand inour principles, but, like we
also need to be responsive to,like, our community's needs.
It can't just be like, you know, Jose went and learned all this
(22:38):
stuff and now Jose is going tolike be this like maverick lone
ranger person who, like, isgoing to change everything.
Right, Like that's not whatwe're advocating for either.
Right, I think like there's likeheavy gene energy, which we're
going to get to in a minute,like with something like that.
But you know, doing this workwith community, right,
introducing these frameworks formath, introducing these
(23:01):
frameworks for restorativejustice right, letting the work
speak for itself, continue topractice, continue to be in
those routines and allowingpeople to you know, see that
work, invite them into.
That is the way to like, slowlycoalition build and make change
.
I know that there are lots ofcomplicating dynamics when it
(23:23):
comes to the politics, thebureaucracy of schools and, you
know, with such high turnoverand people transitioning out of
leadership, people transitioningfrom school to school, those
things make things all the moredifficult.
But if we want to see thischange right, it takes people
investing in their communities,being invested in these
principles and sticking it outfor the long haul.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
That's right.
None of this work is perfect.
I'd also suggest, too, that wedefinitely are not trying to
save children.
We're trying to have childrensave themselves in the way of
being sustainable, in the way ofallowing students to fully be
in their power, because theyalready have it.
It's just a matter of lettingthat being cultivated and then
showing them that, yes, likeit's not a coincidence, for
(24:08):
example, that over the 15 yearsthat I taught, my students were
the most likely to write thatpetition letter, to go beat
those activists speak up toadministrators and to teachers
who they didn't feel like wereactually fully being thoughtful
with them, and it's not anythingthat I particularly did, like
yes, fine, okay.
But there's also the part whereI said yo, you are allowed to be
(24:30):
your fullest self and you aregiven permission to do so.
You don't have to get it fromme per se, but if you feel like
you need to be your fullest selfin this moment, by all means.
And I think, once they saw thatexample, I don't think they
gave themselves anything lessthan what they felt like they
deserved, and so that's a reallyprominent thing for us to think
about too.
But it's like we have to becomeas useless as possible by the
(24:54):
end of the year so that they cando what they need to do.
Even in my middle school side,I was like, yeah, like I don't
need to be that person for you,you can do it all on your own.
It's just a matter of givingthe schools to do so.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If you're appreciating thisvideo.
Like to help us in the YouTubealgorithm?
Subscribe so you won't miss thevideo, and share it with
someone to help us furtheramplify this work.
Now back to the show.
There are a couple otherdynamics at play in this episode
.
Right, we have Gregory not onlyexperiencing like the struggle
in the classroom, but like he'sstill wrestling with should I be
(25:26):
here?
Even though people areexpecting people, his dad is
expecting something differentfrom him.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I actually applied to a few other principal jobs at
other schools.
I'm just waiting to hear aboutit.
Why don't you come work at thelandscape company with me?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
This school idea.
I don't get it.
You've been trying to become aprincipal since you left college
.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Come do a real man's job.
Time to grow up, Gregory.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
There is often external pressure about how you
should be professionally or youknow, even in the context of the
classroom, not just from schoolleadership, from administration
.
How have you navigated thatover your career?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, you know, that's what I love about this
episode too is not just thinkingabout Gregory, but also about
Janine.
And, frankly, like everybody,there is like when you know who
you are as a person versus whoyou are as a teacher, then that
could be really powerful for you, because you start and this is
for me too so, like I thoughtabout like who I was as a person
(26:30):
, and until I learned that thenit was going to be harder for me
to understand who I was as theteacher, because you don't know
who you're going to be as ateacher until you're like face,
you know face, with 30 faces whocould potentially start a
revolution against you rightthen and there, and in one
particular instance that'shappened Sure, like I got to eat
(26:50):
that one.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
But then there were times when I thought, like you
don't get away with, just likegoing over that.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Okay, fine, fine.
So in that time I felt like Ithought I had it as far as
teaching is concerned.
I thought I was good, I thoughtI was doing what I was supposed
to do and like I was.
It was my maybe my second,third year in teaching, so I was
still formulating what I wantedto accomplish as far as, like
my own teaching methods areconcerned.
But then I came across a classwhen the dynamics interest
(27:22):
student were not very positive,and then for myself I was trying
to navigate what that wouldlook like, plus the ever
changing leadership and allthings that were happening.
Personally and as a result,because I wasn't thinking about
where I was as a person, Ididn't feel like my fullest self
as a teacher with that group ofparticular students.
(27:45):
So, even as I tried all themethods that I had, I had two
other classes and it worked wellfor your two classes.
It didn't work well for thisparticular class, and so I found
myself at the receiving end ofa lot of like the things that we
find to be negative, which I'mlike okay, like I gotta take
responsibility, like that'sabout me, like I'm thinking too,
(28:07):
like that's episode two.
It is the fault of the teacherand those of us who are good at
our craft, we blame ourselvesfirst for when issues happen in
our classroom, like that's thething.
And so, over time, like weeventually got some it was, you
know, waves and valves, waves,sure, but I found myself at the
end thinking I needed to bebetter as a person and I need to
(28:28):
be reflective and stay on thatpractice so that I can be better
for the students.
And I think, from then on, Inever had an issue with full
classes, no matter what washappening, no matter what the
context was, because I foundmyself to say, you know what,
like there is the person who isout there.
I'm listening to rap, I'm likegoing to these different
concerts, I'm doing all thesegreat things out there, but then
(28:48):
inside the classroom, I hadpower over students, but I
didn't recognize that who I wasas a person was like separate
from who I was as a teacher, andwithout trying to find a way to
marry the two and assure thatthey were as close to the people
who I wanted to be as possible,then I was going to be at a
loss.
(29:08):
And so that's what I find withGregory, that's what I find with
Janine it's like knowing whoyou are, Like, and even though
things that hurt right, likethere are things that really are
painful to recognize withinourselves as people and then
that can be multiplied when weget into the classroom, because
that hurt ends up being a thing,that because part of our
pedagogy are.
We not even seeing it.
We're all this and we see thatwith so many of our people too,
(29:31):
like they think that you knowthey've resolved whatever that
is that they're dealing with athome, but then when they get
into the classroom it becomeseven wider, like that pain
becomes even harder to deal with, and so I would add that too.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are lots of examples over
the course of the show where wesee, like, the things that are
going on in the outside lives ofthe teachers impact the way
that they show up for theirstudents, right.
But you know, bringing it backto restorative justice, you know
Kay Prandtis and Kailin BoySwatts and developed these seven
core assumptions of restorativejustice, built on indigenous
(30:09):
traditions and wisdom from lotsof different places, and one of
them is you know the true selfand everyone is good, wise and
powerful, and you know thatgoodness, that wisdom, that
power is gonna manifestdifferently for everyone, right.
But how do we bring that intoour classrooms in our unique
ways, right?
If you don't know how thatmanifests for you as a person in
(30:32):
general, it's gonna be reallyhard for you to manifest that in
the classroom because, like,you might feel like, oh, I just
have to be like this, don'tsmile till December, these are
the rules, do it because I saidso.
Person not allowing forconnection, right, and that's
not what we want.
You know Janine is also goingthrough a journey in this
(30:54):
episode, right, both in herpersonal relationship, which I
think we'll leave out of thisconversation, but you know she's
also in this place where she isreally trying to connect with
her coworkers.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I told her we're work friends, and now she's doing
this.
Well, we are work friends.
What's the problem?
No, no, no, no.
We are a family.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Work.
Family is a very, very touchysubject to broach right, because
, as much as we want a schoolcommunity, we want colleagues
who care about each other, whoare there for each other, who,
in some instances, will go aboveand beyond.
It can't be an expectation thateveryone is gonna show up with
(31:34):
their full selves and devote allof their energy to being like
your friend, your everything,within the context of the school
building.
People should go home, peopleshould have better boundaries,
and so, as we were watching thedynamics play out between Janine
and Jacob, and then, likeBarbara, melissa Gregory, all of
them trying to bond with Janineat her at the behest of, like
(31:59):
you know, you don't get thischicken if you don't come and
participate.
What?
was going on for you.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
It works.
I think there's something to besaid for the opposite side of
that too.
So, whereas Gregory is tryingto manifest strict, rigid
professionalism because his daddoesn't think of his profession
as a profession, janine seems tobe stuck in the static mode
where she everything around herneeds to be happy and joyous and
(32:31):
there needs to be, like, ahappily ever after for her,
because that's how she's learnedhow to navigate life generally.
And so, like, teaching is justso much more complicated than
that, which is why, like, theOGs are so powerful in this,
like they fully recognize justhow complicated it is, and yet
they are their most authenticselves by allowing that
(32:53):
complication to be what it is.
So for me, I feel like when Ilook at Janine, I say okay, like
she's struggling right now, notbecause she wants this to be
more rigid, but because shewants this to be super, super
happy, and you know you're happyfor her.
You're like, oh, she's great,like that's dope, and like when
hurtful incidents happen, shedoesn't have another way to like
(33:17):
, reckon with that withinherself and then reflect that
and ensure that she can continueto strive.
She's probably one of theteachers that people keep
talking about, too, that justleave very quickly because they
get burnt out, because they'rejust so like.
It's kind of like going 120like over a road for X amount of
time and then not being able toslow down and take a shift and
(33:37):
say, hey, like where am I goingwith this?
And then my emotions too highthat I'm not recognizing what's
happening around me.
And so there is a way to paceourselves throughout the course
of our 200 day school year thatallows us to continue to let
that joy flow throughout.
It's kind of like a slow simmerinstead of trying to go with a
fast boil.
So these are things that areworth recognizing as well,
(34:00):
especially as we're thinkingabout, you know, being more
restorative for ourselves.
We have to be able to exemplifythat for everybody, like allow
that full person to show up inthe ways that we can.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, this manifests across, you know, ginny and
storyline in this season andlike, even going into next,
which I know you haven't watchedit just yet but like the word
that comes up for me when I seeGinny is like toxic positivity
and like you know, we see later,like the way that, like this,
like the roots of this for herright, like this is an adaptive
(34:30):
behavior to navigate conflictand things that aren't going
right in her life.
Like she's trying to like createhappiness and peace, like in
like all the spaces that she can.
People aren't always receptiveto that right and, again, you
need to meet people where you'reat.
Like you can express your needsto folks, right, but they also
(34:50):
have the right to say no, right,and you can't try to coerce
them into doing your bidding,otherwise it'll just breed
resentment.
And then you know it's playedfor laps, like blackmailing
people with food in this space,but like you know, one of course
, food is a powerful connectorand I don't wanna like belittle
the power of that, but like theway that Jeanine went about
(35:12):
doing that, like ended upbackfiring on her when we get
the chicken, when you tell asecret.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
My cousin turned on the hit on Bobby Kennedy.
Not that kind of secret and wewrite it down.
Jeanine, please just give methe food Guys, you get the wings
when you say the things.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
They were like they weren't, her colleagues weren't
there with, like, goodintentions, right, and so they
ended up, you know, clowning herfor, like the things that she
was doing and she felt even morealienated and so, like even her
efforts to make thoseconnections build that quote,
unquote, work, family, becauseshe was going at this with 120
miles an hour, like not takinginto consideration the needs of
(35:48):
other people, turned back on her.
And, of course, you know, withinthe arc of a 21 minute sitcom,
right, there is some kind ofresolution at the end where, you
know, gregory affirms her rightand like she does make peace
with Jacob because of tellingher about his boyfriend at the
beginning of the show.
But you know, there is smalllearnings that Jeanine is taking
(36:10):
over the course of this showand, you know, I think it's a
really important lesson forpeople who are wanting to do
good, wanting to buildrelationships, that, like you
can't force people to do this,right, you can invite them, but
cramming it down their necks isonly going to breed resentment
and like gonna look bad on thework that you're trying to put
(36:30):
out in the world.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
That's right.
And at least we think a lotabout, well, two parts.
The first is that there's thissaying around New York City, but
then more generally, about howNew Yorkers are, where we're not
nice but we're kind.
So like being nice presupposesthat we're just going to be
happy and smiling.
I mean, you talk about the tossand positivity.
(36:53):
There's a lot of that.
But then, you know, being kindmeans like, what are your acts
like?
And then what is your?
What does the energy tell youabout this person?
And so, you know, we wentthrough a whole era I would say
in the mid, I would even say2010, just around that time when
everybody wants to throw anicebreaker at everybody and our
professional developments wereall about like just putting a
(37:14):
whole suite of ice breakers infront of everybody and saying,
hey, like we're going to be ableto fix teams by ensuring that
we build trust very quickly.
And you know, once we get theseicebreakers together, then
everyone's going to be happy andwe're going to have a joyous, I
guess, workspace.
And then, of course, when thatdidn't happen, then people said,
well, let's just go right backto testing, because that's what
works for everybody and that'snot what we're trying to do here
(37:35):
.
And secondly, yes, like thereis something to be said for,
like people actually readingJanine and saying you know what?
Like we were doing this notjust for the chicken, but
because we know that you'retrying your hardest but you're
really not taken intoconsideration, that we're all
each some of us have seen thisbefore and those of us who
haven't, we're not in the moodright now and there are things
(37:57):
that we need to withhold rightnow because we can't fully
express what we need to say toyou about any number of things
that we see about you, andthat's why I think that Jacob
Peace was so evident of thisnotion that you know, when you
have a work friend, it happenswith every school, right.
Like there are things about usthat you know we try not to like
(38:20):
.
Let everybody see, even thoughwe want to be our fullest person
in the school, we recognizethat the structure overall is
sometimes really that it'sserious to our own personhood,
and so being able to have thatdeep, deep trust means that it's
going to take a little while.
It's not going to be just acouple of icebreakers and you
know, danny's chicken, it'sgoing to be like oh, I want to
(38:40):
be able to read you.
I want to be able to know thatI can trust you with my heart as
well as my head.
I want to be able to spend timeoutside of this structure
that's telling us what to dowith how to do it before we can
actually build somethingtogether.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, you know, the icebreakers and the chicken is
like hey, do you?
Can you do arithmetic rightInstead of like?
Do you understand the conceptsbehind this, right?
Can you apply this critically,right?
That's not to again talk downon providing food for people as
a way to connect.
It's not to talk down onicebreakers as a way to build
(39:14):
relationships, but again, beingattentive to the needs of people
right in front of you and beingresponsive to those, while
still, you know, advocating foryourself, is what all of this
restorative way of being about.
How are we building,strengthening and, of course,
repairing relationships to thisplace where we're in equity and
(39:35):
trust right?
Both with colleagues, both thestudents, families, all of it?
Oh, my goodness, so much good,before we start to transition
out anything else that you wantto highlight.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I would just like to highlight that there is
definitely a movement right nowtowards hiring more male
teachers of color, specificallyback male teachers, but any
number of male teachers of color, which I believe is at around
two, three percent of theprofession, and there is
something to be said for how wecould become more expansive with
notions of maleness to ensurethat, like everyone feels like
(40:12):
they belong in the school.
Noting that Gregory's characteris supposed to be the
prototypical black male teacher,the one who comes in and
aspires to be a principal, andthat's worth complicating just a
bit, because we do have thecreative profession that allows
for everybody to feel that theycould be in their fullest selves
and ensure that we can talkabout teaching profession more
(40:35):
expansively so that everyonefeels like they're getting what
they need professionally as wellas personally about this thing,
because it's not just about,like, whether or not his father
disapproves of what they'redoing this.
What is his impact on children?
What is his pedagogy speakingto when it comes to the children
that are in front of him and inhis charge?
And then, should he eventuallybecome a principal, what has he
(40:56):
learned from his OGs, who havebeen asked to both be women, to
be able to say, hey, like I canactually do this whole thing
better and think about thiswhole experience better for
everybody.
I want to see him look leavingbehind.
So things to note here too.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, I mean, we get, definitely get to see that
growth and trajectory over theseasons.
You've heard from us.
Now we want to hear from you.
Drop your restorative justicereflections in the comments and
if you want to join a livecommunity conversation about our
restorative justice lessonsfrom Abba Elementary, join us
for a live event on Monday, july31.
Link with more info in thedescription.
(41:30):
As we transition out, I like toask a couple questions of
everyone who comes on thispodcast so you get to pitch to
Quinta, and the writers of AbbaElementary right now cast Jose
Vilsen as a character on thisshow.
Who would you be?
What role would you want toplay?
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I would like to play the angry substitute we need the
angry substitute somewhere inthere and I'm appreciative of so
like that would be a completecontrast to who I was for the
majority of my tenure.
But I would love to be cast assomebody who comes in and super
(42:09):
upset and doesn't understand whyhe's there anyway.
And then, of course, like thearc would be well, you know,
once the doors close, like you,the kids mysteriously just
behave for him Like there's justsomething about it, and then he
opens the door again and he'sangry and he's huffy, puffy.
And then do the people knowthat?
Like he's been through anynumber of schools throughout
Philadelphia and this has beenhis experiences, so he's trying
(42:31):
to navigate what that looks likeand then eventually say, okay,
well, you know, I've done mytime, I'm angry and I'm just
going to go to the next school,yada, yada.
But then the kids are like goget him, go get him, he's great,
and so you know things thatwould be pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Oh man, you know, what was coming up for me is
like key and peel vibes ofsubstitute teacher.
I could see that, but likegiving that person giving that
person a redemption arc would bereally, really beautiful.
So, jack Wellin, balaki and aIran, you know we love you.
Oh man, beautiful, beautiful.
(43:08):
Well, you know you mentionedlike all the work that you're
doing.
Tell people how you can.
They can support you and yourwork in the ways that you want
to be supported.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Thank you so much for that.
First, of course, I am the JoseWilson on any and all social
media platforms.
The Jose Wilson comm is myplatform, blogging so on and so
forth but of course, I am theexecutive director of edu color,
and so edu color MVMT is onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
for the time being and of course, as we grow into a full
(43:39):
nonprofit, then we'll beexpanding into more spaces.
But if you'd like to join themovement, that's where we're at
edu color MVMT.
And, of course, we're superhappy to be part of any platform
or any number of movements thatalso espouse racial justice in
the ways that they do.
So let's keep it going.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Beautiful and, of course, all the links to connect
with Jose and his work arebelow.
Again, jose, thank you so muchfor sharing the wisdom, the
stories, the experiences.
We'll be back breaking down thenext episode of Ava Elementary
very soon.
Until then, take care.
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