Stumbling into This Restorative Justice Life (Re-air)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, david Ryan, my savior, castro Harris here all
five names for all the ancestors.
If you missed the last episodein this feed, I shared that I
mentor my OG, my elder, in thiswork, cheryl Graves.

(00:26):
You're going to hear a littlebit more of an intro to her from
the David from 2020 at thebeginning of this re-air episode
, but I wanted to share withthose of you who didn't know
that Cheryl had a stroke earlierthis summer, and I'm reading
from her GoFundMe right now.
In June, our beloved CherylGraves experienced a stroke that
required surgery and asubsequent hospital stay.

(00:46):
Her husband, robert, sisterpamela, nephews wesley and jason
and others have surrounded herwith love and support, and at
this time, what she needs mostis prayer and time to rest and
recover.
Now that she's home from thehospital, she'll be receiving
both rehabilitative and homecare, and a portion of this care
is going to be coming out ofpocket.
So, with their permission,we've organized a fund to
support their out-of-pocketcosts for her recovery.

(01:06):
Please consider giving toensure she's able to receive the
best care possible.
Our goal is to reach the peoplewe know love Cheryl and who may
be able to support her and herfamily in this time.
We are less than $3,000 awayfrom that goal.
So if there's anything you cangive, please do Again.
As you'll hear from the introin this conversation, cheryl

(01:29):
someone who is very important tome, both in the personal sense
and in my development as arestorative justice practitioner
so if you're someone who'sappreciated the work of Amplify
RJ or the restorative justicemovement in general, this is one
of our elders who is in need ofsupport at this time.
So if you have the means,please give what you can.
For now I'm going to turn itover to me from a couple years

(01:52):
ago for the introduction to theconversation.
I hope you gleaned so muchwisdom from one of the realest
to ever do it.
Cheryl Graves.
When I thought about startingthis podcast, I immediately knew
who the first guest had to be.
Cheryl Marie Graves is a girlfrom the south side of Chicago
who stumbled into restorativejustice at just the right time.
Since learning the work, she'sbecome one of Chicago's

(02:14):
godmothers not grandmothers ofrestorative justice.
Cheryl has brought restorativejustice and peace circles to
thousands across the city, thecountry and the world.
Restorative justice and peacecircles to thousands across the
city, the country and the world.
It took some convincing, but I'mso glad she agreed to be the
first guest on this podcastbecause she and the late great
Ora Shube were some of my firstteachers in this work.
It's been such a privilege toget to learn from and work

(02:36):
alongside her in this work overthe past few years.
Since I've moved across thecountry, I don't get to talk to
her nearly enough, but everytime I do I'm always blessed by
the wisdom from her stories.
This is hopefully the first ofmany conversations we'll get to
share together on this podcast,but for now I'm really excited
for you to hear how she got intothis work and some of the
lessons she's learned along theway.

(02:58):
Enjoy this conversation withCheryl Marie Graves.
Welcome, cheryl.
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh, my goodness, I'm a girl from the South Side who
stumbled into restorativejustice just at the right time.
That's who I am.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
I'm a girl from the South Side who stumbled into RJ
who really, really, really loves, loves, sitting in circle and
tending to my plants.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
I am somebody who is very nervous about this podcast.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm somebody who's not as nervous about the podcast
, because you're making me laughand I can see your face and
it's beautiful.
That's who I am.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm somebody who actually, I guess, is going to
be kind of grateful that we'redoing this podcast ultimately.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
I am Cheryl Marie Graves, the daughter of Bertha
and Jack and the granddaughterof Beulah Prudence Graves and
John Lewis Graves.
That's who I am.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
One more time.
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (04:30):
a woman who is learning not to be afraid to
step up, really step up and stepout for what I believe in.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Thank you, uh, thank you for being here, despite all
the fear.
It took a little bit to get youon here, but I'm really, really
glad that you decided that itwas worth it to be on this very
first episode of this Restoredof Justice life, but it's always
good to just check in,especially in these times.

(04:53):
So how are you?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
I am up and down.
I'm very much concerned aboutthe state of all my people, both
family and comrades andcommunity and folks who are in
the streets really trying tomake a difference and not

(05:19):
wanting them to get hurt, butknowing how important it is for
folks to be in the streets, andso I'm personally taking my
immune busting concoction thatmy good friend in Jamaica told
me to make with lots of turmericand aloe and, you know, ginger
and cayenne and really goodstuff, and I am.

(05:40):
I am alive and actually prettywell.
So very convoluted answer.
Answer, but that's how I am.
How are you, david?

Speaker 1 (05:50):
um, I am, all things considered, well.
Um, it's really exciting for methat, um, I'm not going back to
work as an x-ray tech untilOctober 9.
You and I have conversationsoffline outside of this podcast,
but I've been doing a lot ofwork as an x-ray tech.

(06:12):
You know almost the entire timethat you've known me, really
for the last almost nine years.
Wow, I'm getting old, but I'mstarting to decrease that so I
can spend more time doing this.
So I'm really to decrease thatso I can spend more time doing
this.
So I'm really excited aboutthat and, like, doing this work
with AmplifyRJ is a lot.
So, just trying to keep all theballs in the air, making and, I

(06:34):
think, like balancing thebusiness side with the
relationships.
It is always a tough tension.
I had a really goodconversation with a couple of
folks who have been a part ofthis community for a while last
night about how do we balancebringing this work to more
people, sustaining ourselves anddoing it in a way that is

(06:59):
meaningful for us and we know tobe true.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
You know, the point you just made about sustaining
ourselves is really critical.
I've been doing probably morecircles than I've been doing
training, which is sort of theopposite of what it's usually
been, and they're so deep andthe need to go deep is so great,

(07:23):
and trying to hold those spaces, particularly when people are
really hurt and angry, and it'sjust amplified by all that's
going on, and I find myself in away that I hadn't before,
really having to deal with myown energy and my own feelings

(07:43):
and sometimes like I don't wantto do circles anymore, right?
and then I go to sleep and wakeup and think, and what the hell
else would you do?
Right, because this is what youlove to do, right?
And so it is very much the yinand the yang, but it's also then
knowing that you got to staywith it.
It's not like it's one circleor two circles, right, it's you

(08:05):
circle up and give people thespace until they are ready to
figure out what they need andhow to move forward, and there's
no rush in that.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, what kind of circles have you found yourself
doing in these days?

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Oh, my God, it runs the spectrum.
A lot of healing circles, somegrieving circles.
There've been some deaths, notso much from COVID but from just
violence in the neighborhoodsthat I work in.
But then there are also, justyou know, some sexual violence
issues.
There's some issues aroundhomelessness and returning to

(08:43):
family.
There's it sort of runs thegamut and and they're deeper and
they're more intense andthey're longer and they're with
people that I really really careabout.
So I'm not doing circles forsort of people that call in and
say, oh, could you do a circle.
It's friends and even familysaying we really need to address

(09:04):
some of this stuff, and so it'sbeen.
It's been really challenging,really, really challenging.
I really had to.
I've had to learn a lot.
That's actually what I've hadto do, right, because, as much
as I know that I can't beinvested in the outcomes,
because it's people I love, ofcourse I want it to go well and

(09:25):
I had to check myself that it'snot about what I want, it's
about what people need and whatthey need to say and share and
get out.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, I mean I would say like it's not that, like
you're not invested in theoutcomes, but like your idea of
what should happen is not what,because I mean, you can't help
but be in relationship withfolks and you know, knowing who
you are, um, you know, that'ssomething that makes you great,
that's one of your superpowers,um, in this work.
But you didn't start, uh,having all of those superpowers

(09:59):
um you, you know you've beendoing restorative justice,
justice work, probably longerthan you knew what the words
restorative justice were.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
So I been thinking about that recently because
generally I talk about what Icall the Aaron case, the Aaron

(10:29):
story, right.
But recently I started thinkingabout okay, actually before I
knew about restorative justiceor anything like that I was
doing work at Spelman Collegeand we were taking young people
to rural areas.
So then when they signed up toget a particular kind of
scholarship that said that theywould after they finished

(10:51):
medical school or dental schooland that was going to be fully
paid for by the scholarship,they would serve for another
four years in an underservedarea, and these were young
people from Chicago and Phillyand Detroit and LA, you know LA.
They thought they knew whatunderserved was.
They didn't.
They didn't know what ruralmeant.
And so we decided collectivelyme myself and other folks I was

(11:14):
working with at those colleges,the AU Center colleges like
let's, let's go to those places,let's go to rural Mississippi
right and visit the healthcenters where they might be
working and spending four yearsof their life after school.
And the last trip I made was toa little town in rural
Mississippi called Mount Bayou,which is on the Mississippi

(11:34):
Delta, and the town was soexcited that Spellman and
Morehouse and Clark and MorrisBrown were coming.
The band came out to play andthe mayor greeted us.
And then the mayor led us aboutfour miles into the woods to
this health center, this healthclinic, and there were little
babies running around, beautifulbabies with these distended

(11:54):
bellies, and I knew that thatrepresented some kind of
waterborne illness, and but thekids, the students, were just
like, oh my God, this is scaryand amazing.
And then one of the things thatthe mayor said to us was you

(12:14):
know, it really does have to dowith some waterborne diseases,
and that's because we don't.
And then he stopped himself.
He said you know what?
Let me not tell you, let meshow you.
So we were on this little bus,so he had our little bus follow
his big car and we drove out tothis community.
There was all these newthree-bedroom brick homes, right

(12:39):
, maybe like a mile or two awayfrom this, this health care
center, and the woman opened thedoor and she greeted us with
literally a pan of cookies andwe all went in and we walked
around.
It's a beautiful house.
And then the mayor said couldyou turn on the water for us?
And her face fell and she saidwell, you.
She said, you know, come on,you know I can't turn the water

(13:00):
on and he said could you justlet them see what comes out?
And nothing came out.
And then he said can you showthem where you use the bathroom?
And it turned out in herbackyard was a matching brick
outhouse and that's because thisnew community didn't have any

(13:22):
water.
They use well water, right,because and I was we were also
disturbed by that.
But I had a conversation, alonger conversation afterwards,
with the mayor and he said youknow, there's a line, there's a
city line, a town line, and thewhite city fathers on the other
side of that line, they won'tgive us a license so that we can

(13:45):
get the water main extendedacross it, so we can connect up
and we can get in our in water.
And I was horrified.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
They won't let you do that.
He said, you know.
I said well, what do you needto make that happen?
And he said well, you know weneed some good lawyers to come
down here and sue them.
And I said, well, have you beentalking to them?

(14:05):
They won't talk to us.
We got to sue them, we got tosue them and we don't have.
We need some people to come andhelp us do that and I you know
that went back.
You know, we went back toAtlanta, went back to Spelman,
and the phone rings and it's mybest friend from Chicago calls
and says I decided to go to lawschool.
I'm like what?
And she said, yeah, you shouldcome home and go too.
You're crazy.

(14:33):
And I did.
I came back home, but in my headthe reason why I went to law
school was always because of theouthouses in the backyards of
those people and I say that thatconnects to restorative justice
because there was nopossibility of them winning a
case.
Case technically it would haveto be about relationships being
established and I mean Ishouldn't say there's no way

(14:53):
they went in a case, but itwould have been long and drawn
out.
And ultimately the mayor saidhe called me at one point and
said you know, I decided to justgo talk to those people and we
took a whole bunch and we tookcookies and we took food and we
said let's just sit down andtalk about this, because our
people can't continue to livelike this.
And so, yes, the law has itsplace, definitely, thank God,

(15:16):
but so does what I've come tolearn of as how, about
relationships and restorativejustice and, really, how do you
get people to understand thatthere are more connections and
more meaningful relationshipsbetween us than we can imagine?
So that was a long, roundaboutanswer.
So, ok, I'm done.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
So I didn't know all that, because you're right.
Like normally, your restorativejustice story starts off with
Aaron, who you mentioned, sothank you for sharing that
background.
But you went to law school,yeah, and then what?

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Well, I hated law school, Absolutely hated it.
The whole idea that we'resupposed to be thinking like a
reasonable man, and thatgenerally meant a reasonable
white man.
So that was so out of you know,like what the hell does that
mean?
And you know, one day I'mdriving home crying, literally
striving, crying, and I had topull over because I was crying

(16:19):
so hard.
And I ended up pulling overright across the street from
what just happened to be thelegal assistance office.
Right, and these wonderful guysthat ran the newspaper stand
said I kept saying the law.
It wasn't wrong with you, thelaw, I hate the law.
And they said, oh no, just goacross the street, they'll help
you, they'll help you.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,no.
And they said, whatever it is,just go across the street, go up

(16:40):
those steps and they'll helpyou.
And I just need to blow my noseand use the bathroom at that
point.
So I went across the street andwent up the steps and there was
Elaine, who let me in and shestarts being so nice to me, so
proud.
Again.
It's like the love of life,don't worry, the woman on duty
today she's gonna help you.
And you know, and I'm like Ijust can't stand it.
I know it, I know it is so bad.

(17:01):
So she brings me tea and I sitin our way and there comes out
this little, not little, thiswhite woman with these bouncy
red curls, and she's bopping inand says hi, how are you?
And I'm like this is not who Iwant to be talking to.
You look like everybody in mylaw school class.
And she says, oh, but trust me,I'm not not.

(17:23):
And so she said come on backand talk to me about what's
going on.
And so, you know, I'm stillblowing my nose and tears are
flowing and I walk back to heroffice and she, you know, brings
me a cup of tea and she saysokay, what's up?
I said I hate law school.
She said well, I hope so.
She said anybody with any sensewouldn't like it.
It's really not meant forpeople who have social

(17:44):
consciousness.
And so she said so, what'sgoing on?
And so I told her.
I said you know, there'snothing that relates to anything
I care about.
And she said what do you wantto do?
I said I need to work, I needto be with people.
I didn't come to law school tosit and study these stupid ass
topics.
And she said good.
She said what do you want?

(18:06):
I said I want to work.
She said okay, fine, you wantto work for me?
I'm like okay, what would thatmean?
And she said well, you know, Ihave.
She named the kind of cases shewas doing.
I said that sounds fantastic, Isaid, but then they tell you
you can't work your first year.
And she said and you're goingto listen to them?

(18:28):
And I'm like well, she said.
I thought I said no, I'm notlistening to them.
Forget them.
No, no, no, no, no.
So she said, okay, fine.
She said, uh, do you have ahundred dollars, like I have to
pay you to work for you?
And she said, no, the case thatwe have is a really serious
domestic violence case and theman has the husband has already
firebombed my mailbox and so Imay just get held in contempt of

(18:50):
court and need you to bail meout.
So I need you to have $100 incash.
Do you have?
I said, yes, I can bring $100.
Okay, fine.
So that bouncy, curly, redhaired woman totally changed my
life.
That just happened to be OraShue, whose t-shirt you're
wearing right now and I'm happyto see that, david, and but she,
really she and the otherattorneys at Legal Assistance

(19:13):
represented all that.
I wanted to be really staunchadvocates.
I mean really going the totalextra mile for your client,
really listen to what yourclient wanted and needed.
So it wasn't just about thecase, it was about the person
you know, and I just learnedthat it's not a practice of law.
It's about being inrelationship with people that

(19:36):
you care about and you careabout their issues, but you
can't just be the person tocarry it.
You have to inform them so thatthey're learning as much as you
know, so that the next timethey can lift up somebody else.
And that's what I learned thatthat if you're going to be a
good lawyer, then you have toinstill as much information and

(19:58):
agency in your client you knowas you have.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, you brought her up before I did um and I don't
think I've ever heard that storyabout when you first met um.
So that was the doing this forme and for the people um and so
you continue to work with aura.
Um and uh.
For those of you who don't knowwho Aura Shube is, aura has

(20:25):
been for a very long timeCheryl's partner in this work,
not just as a lawyer, but as acircle keeper and a restorative
justice practitioner.
She passed away two and a halfyears ago.
At this point, we'll come backto her in a little bit, but talk

(20:47):
about what happened after lawschool.
How did you all continue towork together?

Speaker 2 (20:52):
so they hired me on at legal assistance as one of
the attorneys there, and so Iended up being there for six
years after law school, um, andit was only and I have to say
that these attorneys and legalassistants were so kick-ass, I
mean, there was one point wherethe folks in landlord tenant

(21:13):
court the judges, got so upsetwith them that they decided that
they were gonna demand theytold everybody that came into
demand trial on all their cases,all the landlords.
They wanted them to demandtrial.
They thought they would just BSand them to stall for time,
right.
And so they ended up in onemonth literally having 22 jury

(21:35):
trials, all right, which wasunheard of, right.
And that's because the judgesthought they would just end up
folding, and they didn't.
They tried every single casebefore a jury.
There were three attorneysSharon Pitts, orishu, then
Marilyn Johnson, and I'm tellingyou they kicked butt and I
think they won all but two casesand the other two settled.

(21:59):
And it was just like see, youthink, because we represent poor
people, we don't count.
Like you know, we're not asgood as we whip their butts,
they whip their butts.
And so those six years taughtme that.
It taught me a lot, and one ofthe things that I also emphasize
because our clientele mostlywith people who lived in public

(22:20):
housing communities RobertTaylor homes, stateway Gardens
and up and down the State Streetcorridor and what we decided
was it wasn't enough just for,as I said, just to represent
them.
So we identified certain ones ofthose clients who really could
be advocates within the publichousing sector, so we trained

(22:42):
them in certain areas of law andso they had monthly legal
sessions in the laundry room,you know, or outside in the big
area, where anybody who wasinterested or anybody that had
something going on, they wantedinformation.
They weren't lawyers, theyweren't legal workers, but they
were really in some ways, betterthan we were at communicating.

(23:06):
This is what you need to do, tobe proactive, right, this is
what you need to do to protectyourself.
These are the documents youneed to have, so, anyway.
So I felt like I had learned somuch from them, but I wanted to
do more trial work, so I went tothe public defender's office
and I was there for a couple ofyears.
I was there until I had a.
Really this was just about abond this judge I was at front

(23:30):
of he would give people milliondollar bonds we're talking about
instead of an I-bond.
They named the bond after him,a marbly bond, anyway, so this
young man came in know a simplesorry for those of you who don't
know.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
An eye bond.
You can come back on your ownreconnaissance right.
Uh, and these bonds, like youhave to pay.
I think it's a tenth rightright so it's a million dollars.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
You're paying a hundred thousand right, but on
an eye bond, basically you justwalk and it's basically I, I
promise to come back so youdon't have to pay for the eye,
right and so.
But just, but the paperworkstill had to be done, right,
okay.
So I heard that case at maybe 845 in the morning.
You know, got him an eye bond.

(24:17):
I said, just wait, he was therewith his mother, his father,
his baby, his girlfriend and thewhole family came at 10 30 he
approached me and said you knowwe're still here.
I'm like, okay, let me check onit.
I went back.
Clerk said I'll get it Oneo'clock.
No, I went back, nobody.
So finally I ended up talkingto the clerk.
She was doing her nails, didn'thave time to get to it, said

(24:39):
she'd get to it in a little bit.
So I go talk to the judge and Isaid judge, you know what is up
with this.
You signed that I-bond at 845this morning.
This man is going to you knowhe'll be taken to Cook County
jail if he doesn't get thepaperwork.
And he looked, the judge lookedat me and he said Cheryl, you
know you're a good lawyer.
I said thank you, I'm worriedabout my client right now.

(25:00):
He said but let me just saysomething.
He said I think you're going towear yourself out.
He said just remember.
Just remember this.
He said people get what theypay for.
And what do your clients payyou?
And obviously, as a publicdefender, my clients did not pay
me and so basically, he wassaying they get what they pay
for, right, I was horrified.

(25:23):
This judge had been a formerpublic defender, right.
I was horrified this judge hadbeen a former public defender,
right?
And the thought that it didn'tmatter what kind of service or
you know how he, this man, wastreated.
So I remember, I think I quit,like maybe three days after that
, like no, can't do this anymore.
And so I went to Access Living.

(25:43):
Just turned out or was itAccess Living which is a
disability rights organization,and their model was nothing
about us, without us, and it wasso powerful.
I learned so much from peoplewho people would consider to be
disabled.
They may have physicaldisabilities and mental

(26:04):
disabilities, but the, the heartand the advocacy spirit and the
knowing that if we don't standup, nobody will.
I watched those people turn thecommunity around.
It became an accessibleneighborhood.
We were right, right off ofGreek town in Chicago.
But I also learned about afighting spirit that was also a

(26:29):
very loving spirit, because theywere advocating.
I watched them pull wheelchairsup in front of the CTA buses,
right, and sit there.
I watched them block traffic.
I watched, anyway.
So just know.
So I was doing housingdiscrimination work Well, not

(26:49):
discrimination work, but tryingto stop the discrimination right
.
And so basically, we would goout and people who weren't
letting people with disabilitiesmove in, we would do testing,
send somebody who was notdisabled in first, and the
people said, oh sure, we haveplaces, and then we would go,
would go and, oh no, there's noplace, and and?
But the goal was notnecessarily to sue them, the

(27:10):
goal was to teach them how theycan make their place accessible
right, and we had architectsthat were available, we had all
kinds of people to support them,and once people knew they
didn't have to cause them an armand a leg and that they could
get some really good tenants, wewere able to open up the
housing.
Anyway, long story short ofthat is that there was a 640
unit building that was actuallynot far from where I lived and

(27:34):
tenants came from that placesaying that it was totally
inaccessible for all kinds ofreasons and could we support the
tenants and make itinaccessible?
Long story short, my positionwas paid for through a grant
from HUD.
It turned out that the landlordat that point was HUD, and so

(27:57):
we ended up suing the person,the entity that paid my salary,
and so basically, what they didwas they ended the program.
Well, they ended me, so theystopped paying, anyway.
So then, after that, I ended upin Northwestern, and that's
where I truly learned that a lotof the spirit and the heart of

(28:22):
the legal work I wanted to dowas what I learned at Legal
Assistance with Aura and what Ilearned at Access Living with
those people that taught me somuch about standing up when you
couldn't walk right.
And so, aaron, I bumped intoAaron.
Finally, aaron appears in mylife, and Aaron is the younger

(28:47):
brother of a guy I wasrepresenting in a really serious
matter.
Aaron would come along to allthe interviews because we always
engaged our students in thecases we were working on.
Obviously, and just know, aspart of the Jesus Christ the
Children and Family JusticeCenter, which was started and

(29:10):
run by Bernadine Dorn, who isone of the most amazing,
kick-ass women I've ever met inmy entire life.
She was actually part of theWeathermen Underground way back
in the day, and how she workedher way in the Northwest.
That's a whole other story I'mgoing to share right now.
But anyway, and so you know,berta Dean's thing was okay.

(29:31):
So how do we show, how do wedemonstrate what you know, good
holistic representation is foryoung people, right?
So Aaron would come with hisolder brother all the time and
at the end of every interviewAaron was very sweet and he
would say to me Miss Graves,thank you so much and just know
you will never, ever have torepresent me, don't you worry
about that?
And of course not.

(29:55):
Of course it ended up that aboutthree months after that, the
mother called and said you know,cheryl, can you come to court
on Tuesday?
I'm like, oh my God, whathappened to Tony?
And she said, no, it's not Tony, it's Aaron.
He got into a fight at a videoarcade.
I'm like Aaron.
She said, yes, aaron.
She said he said you would saythat, aaron, what?

(30:17):
And so I said, sure, you know,I'll be in court anyway, I'll be
in court, anyway, I'll.
You know, I'll stop by and seewhat's going on.
What do you need?
Get there.
And I see her talking andlaughing with this woman, and I
look around and I see Aaron andhe's in the back sitting,
because juvenile court inChicago could be packed to the
gills.
Look like somebody was givingout toys at Christmas except it

(30:40):
wasn't Christmas, um, and it'sall black faces, for the most
part black and brown faces.
And so I see Aaron, and so he'sin one of the back seats and
he's having a good time talkingto this other young man.
And so I'm getting a littlepissed off, like you're not
supposed to come to court and behappy and giddy and seeing
people you know.

(31:00):
Well, it turned out his motherwas talking to the mother of the
little boy who Aaron had gotteninto the fight with, and Aaron
was talking to the little boy hehad gotten into the fight with.
So basically they already hadsome kind of forged some
relationship.
So I went and I talked to themother and she said I'm so sorry
.
You know, my son has some milddisabilities and when he gets to

(31:23):
the video arcades he hastrouble playing the games, and
so he's sort of standing infront of the machines.
Aaron, as it turned out, wasbehind the machine behind him
and just got really frustratedand sort of mildly pushed him
because he thought my son wasjust trying to just hog the
machine.
And it turned out that I endedup being called.

(31:47):
I saw I didn't even see Aaron.
Aaron had already been arrested.
They'd have called in thesecurity.
The security guard had calledthe police to come in and arrest
him.
But when we got home we, basedupon my son's description that
he felt like he knew him fromchurch, we went to the church
book and, lo and behold, there'sAaron and his mom in the church

(32:08):
book.
So, um, it turned out that theyhad a longstanding relationship
and so I said you know, itwould be great if we could just
talk about what you would liketo see happen.
Because when I went to talk tothe state's attorney, her whole
thing was that boy pushed a boywho's retarded and she yelled it

(32:29):
so loud and she's pointing overto the little boy.
And I was horrified, like,really, this is how you protect
the quote unquote victims thatyou were supposed to be
representing.
Anyway, a few days later theywent over to the house and they

(32:49):
sat down around a pot of stew ata kitchen table and Aaron said
you know, he said I thought youwere just fronting me off.
I've been standing there forlike 15-20 minutes, you weren't
doing anything, and then Joeystarts crying.
Little boy starts crying.
He said that's because I don'tknow how to play.
You know, I go there with mycousins.

(33:11):
They think I'm stupid, theythink I'm retarded, and I just
like the sounds and the noiseand the and the, you know the
lights, but I don't know how toplay any of the games.
And so, and I said, well, I'mnot the smartest you know person
, but I could show you how to dothat.
So, anyway, that Saturday, um,before the court date, they went

(33:36):
to the video arcade togetherand, as it turned out, joey left
being able to play like five ofthe video machines.
He couldn't have been happier.
And so when showed up in courtagain, they literally were
friends.
They had bonded, but theybonded around a kitchen table
where they had the opportunityto really meet each other.

(33:56):
And that was my firstopportunity to see that my whole
strategy right of trying to youknow, you know, put the
witnesses on the stand and arguefor this and argue with for
that, that really wasn't evenwhat was needed or what was best
.
What was best is what they did,but they did at that kitchen
table.
And so, um, the the.

(34:20):
That was the good news.
The bad news was that the judgedidn't.
We, we did a what's called a 402conference.
We were back in his chambersand I explained this to him.
I know I got a little bit loudbecause another judge from down
the hall came in and said cheryl, I heard your voice, are you
okay?
What are you doing?
You need to calm down and and Ijust couldn't believe that this

(34:40):
judge couldn't feel and senseand know that that was the best
possible way that could haveturned out.
Anyway, aaron got a finding ofsupervision which meant that,
you know, if he stayed out oftrouble for three months, then
you know, the case would go away.
But as we walked out of court,aaron looked at me and I was not

(35:02):
satisfied with that and the thejudge was like it's the best
deal you're going to get.
I didn't want a deal.
I wanted these people tounderstand that this boy had
done everything right.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
He had repaired the harm with the person that he had
harmed.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Thank you.
How about that Right In basicrestorative justice philosophy
and language?
That's exactly what he did andnobody cared because nobody
understood that.
So anyway, so of course, youknow, thanksgiving came up, and
the day after Thanksgiving Aaronis out past curfew with his

(35:38):
buddies, and they're not doinganything wrong, they're just out
.
They blew curfew.
That was a violation of hissupervision.
Supervision turned intoprobation, violated probation on
some other thing, driving a car, and the car was speeding and
he wasn't driving.
But it didn't matter.
Didn't matter Because the lawsaid da-da-da-da-da.

(36:00):
And once again that was aviolation.
And I watched that boy, thatbeautiful young man whose heart
was so sweet and so good, spiraldown to the point where,
probably about maybe two yearslater, we were in court and we
just looked at each other and hesaid to me Cheryl, I don't want

(36:21):
any more probation, I don'twant intensive probation.
We've been there, done that,you tried everything.
He said I want you to plead meto the Department of Corrections
, because by this time he was 17, and so he could be tried as an
adult, right.
And he said I just want to goto the DLC.
I said I'm not pleading you tothe Department of Corrections.

(36:43):
I couldn't do that.
He said you always told me thiswasn't, you weren't the lawyer,
you weren't just the lawyerhere that this was my case and I
had a say in my case.
I said and that's true.
He said and I can't do, I willfail probation again.
Look at me.
I failed supervision.
I said you didn't.
He said stop it, whateverhappened, please.

(37:03):
And that's the first time I'veever done it, ever in my life.
I actually pled somebody to theDepartment of Corrections
because he knew if he went thereon this very soft charge, that
he would be out in a couple ofmonths, but whereas intensive
probation was for a year and ahalf and he was probably right.
I knew he was right.
He wasn't going to survive that.

(37:23):
So it broke my heart.
It broke my heart and it let meknow that I had to do something
different.
And so I had already learnedabout restorative justice and,
always remembering what happenedto him around the kitchen table
, decided that's the route.
I need to go.
Very long story.
I'm so sorry that took so longto tell.
Every time I think about him itjust breaks my heart.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
I wanted to reflect on a couple things that you
shared in there about the systemas it existed that you believed
in in a lot of ways was reallyignoring the humans involved and
the needs of the peopleinvolved, um, which are, um, you

(38:09):
know, is what restorativejustice is all about.
I, I think we talk aboutrestorative justice in a lot of
ways.
Uh, one of the things that yousaid to me is like fundamental
questions are you know?
How are you?
What do you need?
Um, that's it.
Um, how are you?
To aaron and joey, we're good,we squashed it.
What do you need for you to goaway?
Please, let us go play videogames, right, that's?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
right david.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yes, right um and that's not what the system wants
.
It wants punishment, or I thinkyou know, when we talk about
restorative justice, victimoffender doesn't like fully give
the picture of who these peopleare.
So when we say, you know thislittle boy with mental
disabilities, joey is so muchmore than that, right, joey is

(38:55):
now this little boy who knowshow to play these video games at
the arcade, thanks to theperson who taught him, who just
also happened to be the personwho pushed him.
In a moment of frustration,aaron, the sweet kid who you
know was always like I'm nevergonna be the one trouble, you're
not gonna have to do this forme had a moment of like

(39:18):
frustration, misunderstandingand yes, he should not have
pushed that the boy.
He could have had differentcommunication skills, right, and
two years later he does notneed to end up in IDOC.
It's really tough.
You'd said that you'd learnedthe word restorative justice a
little bit before that and thissent you on a path to learn more

(39:42):
.
Where did you learn the wordrestorative justice and where
did you go after?

Speaker 2 (39:46):
So I was ready to quit and I remember I stomped
into the office of BernadineDorn, who was my supervisor, and
I said I quit, I quit.
And she immediately said holdon one second.

(40:08):
And she went out the room andcame back in with a pot of tea
and two cups so we could bothsit down and talk about it.
And I told her the story andshe had been with me on that
journey anyway Right, and shesaid is there a different way
that could have been approached?
I said, of course, and I beganto talk about some of the things

(40:30):
I had begun to learn about.
Um, like victim offenderconferencing, which is one of
the restorative justicepractices with and and basically
a Kay Pranis who's done a lotof writing and has been like a
major mentor, um, just becauseshe always framed it as the

(40:51):
community needs to have a voicethat you think about indigenous
practices.
First of all, there was noplace to send somebody out to
right the community view.
When they hurt somebody, theyviewed it as a harm against the
community and the goal is thathow do you bring that person
back into community, which is areally beautiful way to think

(41:13):
about it, like we don't pushpeople out?
There are no what do you callit?
Disposable people, right.
And so the thing is they'vedone something wrong, okay, how
do we show them how to get backon the right path, right, how do
we give them another chance?
How do we see them as peoplewho are not unredeemable, but

(41:33):
totally redeemable?
Because there are people and,and so I've been thinking about
that and you know, but there wasnever any real way or place to
do that.
And so Bernadine said so wetalked about it, and she said
okay.
I said okay, what she said, whydon't we explore that?
I said really.
She said yeah, and that was theone good thing about being in

(41:57):
that particular institution atthat particular time is that
there was a lot of thingshappening socially and in the
legal world, and Bernadine wasdefinitely not afraid and she
said let's explore it.
And we did.
And so we ended up, um, creatinga model that sort of was based

(42:20):
on what they call victimoffender conferencing, but we
called ours community panels foryou, basically because we want
a community to be in it.
And we she and I, bernadinesaid okay, you, let's see if we
can get the state's attorney tosend some cases out to us.
I said that'll never happen.
She said it'll never happen ifwe don't go talk to them about
it.
And so she said, and I said,when you say we, she said I mean

(42:44):
you and me.
So she, bernadine, who's likethis fierce freedom fighter?
Right, and here we are sittingdown with state's attorneys
talking to them about arestorative process that they
had never heard of?
Um, but at that time there wasa nun, um sister, kathy ryan,
who was the chief state'sattorney at the time, and she

(43:04):
had heard of it.
Anyway, long story short, I'mmaking this long um.
There she was like, okay, let'ssee how it could work.
And so she assigned a judgefrom the Austin community to
work with me.
Um, and then Bernadine and Ifigured out which students would
be good, and so we had a littleteam going and we went and
talked, but the whole thing wasthat it was got, it had to be

(43:27):
about community.
So I, literally, with this team, our team, we talked to
everybody who ran anorganization in the austin
community, right?

Speaker 1 (43:38):
austin on the west side of chicago, not austin
texas exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, we didn't get to go to texas, right.
Um, so on the west sidecommunity that you know, it's
like a pretty pretty much aBlack community and a lot of
really powerful folks in there,a lot of people that were also
really struggling in thatcommunity and some really

(44:01):
powerful organizations.
And what I learned from thatcommunity and then from the
North Lawndale community, whichis right next to Austin, is that
if you say it's about community, then you have to give up the
law school, has to give up somecontrol, right.
And I'll never forget, oh myGod, one of the most beautiful

(44:28):
people I ever met in my life andwhat she said to me when I was
the people would invite us in tocome speak because, oh, you're
from Northwestern University,right, and initially I thought
that would be a plug to get usinto organizations say, we want
to keep your kids out of thesystem, right, and here's how we
need you to be involved.
And I go to the meetings and Iremember this one woman tapped
me on the shoulder.
She said you know, I've readyour literature, it's really

(44:50):
good.
She said, but you need to knowone thing I'm like okay, her
name was Shirley Jones, right.
And so Miss Shirley said see,when you come up in here, I know
I know you see yourself as asister from the south side.
She said but we don't know you.
She said I think your idea is areally good one, but right now
it's your idea, it's not ouridea yet.

(45:13):
And she said and we're notsingle focused.
Yes, we don't want our kidscaught up in the system, but we
also got to have food on ourtable.
We're trying to get employment,we're trying to worry about the
schools for our kids.
She said so you're like, youare one of many.
She said what you need to do iscome to the meetings when

(45:33):
you're not on the agenda.
You need to come and just sitand listen to what people are
struggling with, becausenobody's one dimensional and you
need to be able to see us aspeople and not just participants
in your program.
And I thought, oh my God, thisis really good advice.
But she probably hates me.
But then at the end of thatmeeting, she came over and she

(45:56):
tapped me on the shoulder.
She said you want to go havesome dinner?
I'm like okay.
And so me and Ms Shirley andabout five other women went and
sat around a table at one of therestaurants in North Lawndale
and we just talked, you know,and they told me about their
kids and they we talked about,you know, some of the other
issues around housing,discrimination, and we just we

(46:18):
were just people talking andthat's I.
I attribute a lot to Bernadineand a whole lot to Miss Shirley
because it was so much aboutbeing in relationship.
Right, yes, did we end upstarting a project in North
Lawndale and in Austin and inabout seven other neighborhoods,
but I learned the lesson and Ikept learning it.

(46:41):
Right that?
Because what I also ran intowas oh, you're from that big
white institution that you knowcomes in and gives the community
and then y'all get all thisresearch money.
You're gonna do research.
I'm like no, no, I'm a sisterfrom the South Side.
It didn't matter If peopledon't know you, they don't know
you, right?
So, anyway.
So we started community panelsfor youth at Northwestern.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Can I jump in really quick?
Sure, so yesterday I was havinga conversation with Derek Brown
brown.
You and I both know derrickbrown well and that's really how
you and I got connected in thenorth londale neighborhood.
For those of you listeningright now, the episode of
derrick will be in a coupleweeks.
But, uh, we were having thisconversation about this exact

(47:28):
thing, right, right, wherepeople from institutions or
people from, I think,well-intentioned people from
outside of neighborhoods come inwith these grand ideas let's
say, for example, a restorativejustice, community court or
community panels for youth andyou know, don't build those

(47:54):
relationships within thecommunity.
And I think, like community issuch um, community means a lot
of different things to a lot ofdifferent people.
But, um, the, what you weretalking about, you know, with
access, living, nothing about uswithout us.
Um, when you're coming into anorg, uh, when you're from
outside or coming into acommunity and saying, like we
have this great idea, let's find, like a token, few people to

(48:17):
like get on board with this umand then like run this um, it's
very different than let's comeinto this community, listen, ask
, what do you need?
Right, and then do that insteadof like our agenda, even though
we have the money, we we havethe quote unquote power in this
situation.
It's so important.

(48:38):
I don't want to fully hijackwhere we were going, because I
know you and I can go no, thatis not hijacking anything.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
That is really fundamentally the basis of
restorative justice.
The basis of restorativejustice.
And if I hadn't have had thoseexperiences of really because Ms
Shirley didn't just take me todinner that night, I mean she
took me, I went to all kinds ofmeetings with her and we sat in
the back and I was not on theagenda and because of that I got

(49:12):
to hear all kinds, I got toparticipate in all kinds of
conversations that have anythingto do with the law or justice
or the courts.
But just how are people livingand what are people excited
about in terms of opportunitiesand what are they really really
deeply struggling with andworried about?
And so I became a sister in theneighborhood because I was
there.
So much right, and so did mystudents and so did the other

(49:33):
people who were involved in.
What we learned was the mostvaluable lesson ever that I hope
.
When I sit with other people Iimpart, and it's that nothing
changes.
Nothing changes with peoplefrom the outside coming in
trying to do something.
Nothing changes, and I wasn'tfrom the outside coming in

(49:54):
trying to do something.
Nothing changes and I wasn't inmy heart.
I was not.
I was trying to create asituation like that kitchen
table situation, right.
I wanted the people themselvesto do the relationship building.
Right, for them to be closer intheir own neighborhoods.
But I also had to learn, whenthat was not, that that can can
be what I wanted, and I neededto let people know that.
And I need to step back andprovide what they needed, if

(50:15):
they needed anything from us,right.
And so what we created wassomething different than what we
started out thinking we wouldcreate, because initially, you
know, the panels were reallygroups of community people who
sat.
You know, at that point we weresitting around a table with
whoever the young people werewho were referred to our program

(50:36):
and we met them first, like wewere the ones that went to court
and sat and they referredpeople.
We said this is completelyvoluntary, so you do not have to
do this.
That's how we started it Right.
And if you do decide this iswhat you can expect, right,
that's it, but you're up.
But also is that you're gonnahave to admit that you did

(51:00):
something, because this is not afact finding, we're not court,
we're not trying to figure outit's like, and we can talk about
what that was, but we're goingto try and find, bring the
person who you caused the harmwith, and we use those words.
We just say the victim and theoffender.
We use those words person thatcaused the harm, person who was
harmed, and.
But we're going to sit aroundand we're going to talk about it
and we're going to see whatthey need.

(51:22):
But also, what do you need?
And this is about and we talkedabout it in a very balanced way
.
And so the and the training thatwe did for community.
We started out doing it incommunity and then, once again,
ms Shirley said sure, I thinkthey'd like to go downtown and
see the lakefront a little bit.
So if you could have some ofthese trainings downtown in that
fancy law school, that would bekind of nice.

(51:43):
It'd be a nice treat for people.
So that's what we did, but itdidn't matter where we held it,
because it was the same and thetraining really was giving them
a chance.
We had, you know, first of allwe talked about restorative
justice, we talked about theprocess and then we had a full
day where they actually got achance to practice and we
recruited young people from theneighborhood and we paid them to

(52:04):
come in and we did some mockyou know, mock sessions, mock
sessions and in the end some ofthose young people who were like
the you know, the children whocame in to play that role, they
ended up becoming some of thepanel members and so it grew
sort of organically in people'schildren.
So I'd like to do that, so canwe do it?

(52:26):
And I'll never forget, never,ever, ever, because Ms Shirley
also also said, don't discountanybody.
They may seem when you meet himlike maybe they couldn't handle
all of this, but don't discounthim.
And there was just one brotherwho worked in a factory.
He had three sons and he wasvery proud when he came to
interview with us and theinterview team was people from

(52:47):
the community plus one or two ofus, right and he came in and he
was telling us about how he hadthree sons and his three sons
had never been incarcerated andhis goal was that none of those
other children ever had to beincarcerated.
He also had a very seriousstutter right and sometimes I

(53:13):
was nervous when he would sit ina sit for a panel.
I was nervous that somebodymight laugh, right, or somebody
might, you know, just just justinsult him, and I quickly
learned that I didn't have towatch out for him because he
knew who.
He was right, and he and Iremember this one incident at a
panel.

(53:35):
Young woman comes in, like youknow, one of the rules was you
can't wear gang colors, right,and God, take off your hat.
That was the rule.
The community decided theseneeded to be right and we wanted
you to always come with asupport person.
Young woman came by herself.
She had on gang colors, she hadon a hat that she pulled down
over her ears, and so it wasalways three people from the

(53:58):
neighborhood and he was the leadperson, and so everybody said,
well, maybe we shouldn't let hercome in.
He's like no, no, no, she madeit here and she came by herself,
which means she really wantedto come.
Let's see what happens.
So he starts out and heintroduces himself and once

(54:18):
again, you know it's kind oflabored because he's stuttering,
because he's nervous, and butbecause he's taking his time and
he's not apologizing forhimself, he's.
You know, what he said was you.
You know I stutter a little bitand it may be hard initially to
understand me, but you lean into hear me, like I'm gonna lean
in to hear you.
And so they both leaned inacross the table to each other

(54:43):
and and he said you know, I'mleaning in, but I still can't
see your face because of thathat.
He said would you mind takingthe hat off?
And so she said well, you know,my hair don't look too good.
He said that's okay.
He said, well, just push it upa little bit.
So she pushed her hat up.
He said, oh my goodness, youlook like my cousin, so-and-so,

(55:05):
but he wasn't bullshitting, youknow.
And so she gets this little,little tiny smile on her face
and then he says, oh my god, isthat a smile?
I see, oh my goodness.
And of course the smile widens,right.
And then he.
And then he just said wow, wow.
He said thank you so much forthat.
He said you have honestly mademy day.

(55:26):
And then he went on to talkabout how he'd been at the
factory.
I mean, he just right, and partof it was the community could
just normalize it.
Like I'm glad to see you.
I mean it was the beginning ofthe whole notion of radical
hospitality, right?
I really am glad you're here.
It's not just about your case,it's about who you are and how
you're feeling and what you need.

(55:49):
And it ended up that the personthat you know she had caused the
harm to that in quotes, um,didn't show up.
But we didn't let that stop us.
If people we people had beeninvited, they said they were
going to come and they didn'tshow, then we would call and
they said, well, that's okay, Idon't even want to proceed.
Well, then we would just thenfocus on okay, what does this

(56:10):
young person need?
Right?
But she wanted to talk aboutwhat happened, and so they had a
full-fledged conversation, andshe wanted to talk about what
she had done and why she haddone it and how she didn't want
it to happen again.
But that would mean that sheand this person need to have a
conversation, and so just, allthe community worked it out.
It didn't matter that it wasnot in court anymore, right?

(56:31):
Because we just said, you knowthey didn't show, and so then
that if that, if the person harmdidn't show, then the case
would be dismissed.
But she wanted it.
So somebody knew, somebody'saunt who knew, right, and they
went, and so we set up anothertime, and then the families came
and they brought food with them.

(56:52):
It ended up being over a meal,people were able to talk about
what's happening and straightenthings out, and so community
panels were not necessarilysupposed to operate like that
right, it was supposed to bemuch more technically run, but
the community said, no, this ishow we need it.
And then they became the Austincommunity and the North

(57:13):
Lawndale community, became theexamples for the five other
communities that then actuallyended up with like 11
neighborhoods.
And so then they became, youknow, we would step back when we
had the trainings and theywould be the ones that would
talk about the program, and andI'll never forget, the best
thing that happened was that wedecided we need to step back
completely.

(57:34):
You know, like we have enoughpeople trained, enough people
know how to do this, enoughpeople who can co-train can
train other people, and so wehelped raise money in North
Lawndale so that they had aperson who went to court.
Right, they had a person thatgot those cases, because the
whole thing is that the courtneeds to know the community,
they don't need to just knownorthwestern right, and so at

(57:56):
first they went with us and thenwe just stepped back and I was
really proud of that effort.
It ended up that we decided tomove on to do peace circles.
Um, we felt like you could go alot deeper with peace circles.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Plus, we felt like we just needed to spend more time
developing capacity in theneighborhood yeah boy, I talk a
lot, david, damn, you didn'tknow that just put a quarter in
and let it go let's turn off themachine one of the things that

(58:30):
I wanted to pull out of that,though, was like is, like you
know, it was supposed to be likethis scripted thing, but when
that brother showed up, the waythat he is authentically like,
yes, he knew the principles, heknew the values, he knew what
the practice was, but it was,hey, lean in, pull up your hat.
You look like my cousin, I loveyour smile.
That's what broke all of this.

(58:51):
You look like my cousin, I loveyour smile.
That's what broke all of this.
It wasn't about what happened,who was impacted and how.
What have you thought aboutsince.
It's not this scripted list ofquestions, it's how you show up
for people and really like beingpresent with them, being
attentive to what's in the room,them being attentive to, um,

(59:14):
what's in the room, and one ofthe things for me in trying to
teach this work, like you know,that stuff is easy.
Like the question, the specificquestions asked, like the
procedure of it all.
That's easy.
How do we teach people to, um,you know, first love themselves
enough to show up as themselves,um, and then extend that to
others, um, that's so much ofwhat this work is like.

(59:35):
You know, it's all aboutrelationships the first
relationship you have is the onewith yourself, um, and you
teach that um through a lot ofdifferent ways.
You mentioned peace circles.
I'm wondering how you likestarted to make that transition.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
I think what we realized no, I don't think I
know what we realized is that wewere doing too much, right?
So we, you know, we're in NorthGlendale, that was the first
place where we tried to justtake ourselves out of it, right?
And I think, because we've beenin it so much and we've been
the center of it so much, peoplefelt like we were exiting the

(01:00:17):
project, right?
Um.
So then you know, by that wehave more people working with us
and um, but I feel like I feellike we knew there was something
more we could be doing and wecould be doing it in a different

(01:00:37):
way.
And what we realize is that inthe very beginning, it shouldn't
be us Like, not like, okay, westart out and then we turn it
over to the community.
No, that even if we're in it,we're in it as equal partners,
or maybe not even equal partners, like, we're in it to provide

(01:00:58):
what's needed, but they don'tneed as much as we think they do
.
You know, it's not like.
People know how to be kind topeople.
People need the opportunitysometimes and the space to not
be on guard right, to not haveto be tough.
I mean, some of the best circlekeepers the people we've

(01:01:24):
trained to actually keep orfacilitate circles a lot of
times are people who have reallybeen through the toughest,
hardest times and welcome theopportunity to share that other
side of themselves.
I mean, they know what painfeels like you know, they've

(01:01:45):
been there.
But to be in a space where it'snot totally focused on your
pain, it's also focused on yourjoy, it's's focused on what you
love, what your interests areCircles have.
There's so much moreopportunity to build
relationships and I've seen alot of people do.
I'm putting quotes around victimoffender conferencing because,

(01:02:06):
as I said, we were not reallytrue to that model right.
We were not really true to thatmodel right, but I know that we
needed to start there becauseit looked more like what we
could describe it in ways thatit sounded more like something
court people would becomfortable with.
Okay, well, you have the peoplewho are gonna ask the questions

(01:02:27):
of the people that cross thehum, blah, blah, blah, and so
they feel like they couldunderstand that.
I think had we just started outwith peace circles, it would
have been a much more difficulttime trying to get people to
send folks out to circles.
Or maybe I'm just saying thatfor myself.
Maybe I needed that period oftransition, right, maybe the

(01:02:47):
people would have been just finewith it, right.
But bottom line, what happenedwhen I bumped into circle?
I feel like I bump into thesethings, right, I just fell in
love.
I honestly just fell in lovewith the process, with the
practice which, with the frame,that is, you start absolutely

(01:03:12):
with relationship building, likethere's no if, ands or buts
about it, like if you say youtry to start with the issue, you
don't get very far because youknow, most of the time, really,
people are trying to speak upfor themselves, right, and
present themselves in the bestway possible, and so it really

(01:03:32):
doesn't matter what the questionis.
Even let me just, you know, puton a good face and you don't
have to do that in circle.
What?

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
was your first experience with circle oh, let's
see.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Um, jesus christ, what's my first experience in
circle?
I remember a circle well.
One of the one of the circles Ireally remember well actually
was a hate crime.
It wasn't one of my first, butit was probably one of the ones
that I was most surprised about.

(01:04:05):
Um, there was a, a white family, a white, a white, a young
white person.
He was maybe, I don't know,like 15.
And there was a group of Blackpeople, these young men and
their girlfriends, maybe theywere like 19, 20.

(01:04:28):
And they, one evening in thesummer, they had ended up at a
park in marquette park.
Um, and back then, market parkwas not an area where you had a
lot of black people and theretended to be sometimes a lot of
friction if black people were inthe area, particularly not when

(01:04:50):
they weren't just like movingthrough, like if you're in your
car, okay, right, like what areyou doing at our on our swing?
what are you doing on our slot?
And so it's two couples and oneguy was in the service and he
was home on leave, right, somaybe he was 21 and the girl was
19 this is his girlfriend fromhome and a couple of a couple of
black folks.
And this one kid comes right induring this bike and yells out

(01:05:13):
the n-word and they just sort oflaugh him off because they're
having a good time.
And there were other people inthe park who you know everybody
was fine.
And then he came back withthese other people on their
bikes and a couple of them endedup having bats, right, and so
basically they ended upthreatening these couples, these
black couples, and told them,you know, if they didn't get out

(01:05:36):
the park they were going to Fthem up and really threatened
them.
They were waving the bats,nobody got hit with anything,
but it was really, really scaryand I think actually, maybe, as
they were leaving, they threwstuff at them.
So this case was in court, right, and somebody knew about

(01:05:58):
restorative justice the judge.
This was a case where the judgeagreed to let the case go out
to a peace circle cases thatwere sent to circle.
That I knew about, that Ihadn't experienced with and I

(01:06:18):
was really reluctant to take it,both myself and my co and the
co-keeper, um pamela purdy, whoworks with precious blood,
ministry of reconciliation, andbecause the, the young white,
the, the one boy that got caught, right, let me speed up on this
the one young man that gotcaught, he really wasn't saying

(01:06:42):
he did anything, it's more likehe saw something.
So it's like you know what youknow.
Is this enough to?
I mean, do they want to justhear?
Then I thought, well, why arewe trying to decide what people
want to hear?
Why don't we just bring thepeople together and circle and
let's see where this goes, let'ssee what happens?
Because they had identified himas the initial person on the
bike and so his whole thing wasI was just sort of there, I

(01:07:05):
wasn't doing anything.
So he comes with his mother andthis guy had been sent back to
wherever he was stationed.
He came back to Chicago forthis peace circle, right, and it
was a long night.
I think we started at like 5.30, 6 o'clock.

(01:07:26):
We had some food andrefreshments, some hospitality,
and then we started anothercircle and I don't think we got
done until like 10 30.
We were there a long time, andthe reason why we were there so
long is because the little boywas a little boy, but the young

(01:07:47):
man was afraid to speak in frontof his mother because, as it
turned out, she told him don'tadmit to anything.
But upon sitting with these,these young black folks, he
began to feel how scared theywere and how ashamed these young

(01:08:07):
black men were that theycouldn't protect their
girlfriends right from whatappeared to be these young white
kids.
And and so because you know,and after we did some
relationship building, or atleast tried to, and young man,
the white young man, was muchmore into all of the.
He was, you know, he wassharing it and he was laughing

(01:08:28):
at some of the icebreakers wedid, but his mother wasn't, she
was stone faced the whole time.
And so at one point we askedher and another person from the
other side to step out, to do itright, and and then we just
asked, we just sent the talkingpiece around to see if anybody

(01:08:49):
has anything they want to share,because it was clear he wanted
to say some stuff, but hecouldn't.
And so, with his mother gone, heburst into tears and he said I
never knew any black people.
He said I just didn't.
There, there's nobody on myblock and nobody in my school.
He said I just didn't.
And so when people said, oh,there's the black folks in the

(01:09:10):
park, we need to get them, andhe said I remember thinking get
them for what?
Like, I mean, I didn't have anyreason to dislike you, I didn't
know you.
I mean, I knew this, you know.
And he said I remember thinkingget him for what?
Like, I mean, I didn't have anyreason to dislike you, I didn't
know you.
I mean, I knew this, you know.
And he said the stereotypesabout you.
But he said but then, when wegot in the park and everybody
else was joining in, it's likethen people said to me man,
what's wrong with you?
You a punk or something?
So I didn't want to be punkedout.

(01:09:31):
But he said I honestly didn'tthrow anything.
I there, and I was the firstperson on the bike that you saw.
And I went back and said, hey,there's some.
And I didn't say Black, I usedthe N word.
There's some N's in the park,he said.
But mostly he said, as I thinkabout it and I'm listening to
you that was just ignorance.
I honestly that's the way wetalk.

(01:09:52):
And he said and now and I'm I'mjust so ashamed that he just
started crying.
And what happened was the blackguy who would come back from the
service you know who was theone who was the most animate
that you know.
He just he wanted the bookthrown at them.
He actually got up out of hisseat and walked over and didn't

(01:10:13):
just offer that young man someKleenex.
He held onto his shoulder andsaid man, we all, all of us do
some stuff we're ashamed of.
He said the key is that youdon't keep doing it, you know.
And then that was probably intothe third hour, right when this
happened, and you know, he juststood there with his hand on

(01:10:34):
this boy's shoulder for a whileuntil he stopped crying.
And then one of the girls saidgive her those tears, for your
mother walks in here.
We don't want her to see youcrying.
And he said, no, I don't wanther to see me crying either.
And so you know, we asked themother does she want to come
back in?
And she said no, I don't knowwhat he's in there saying, but

(01:11:00):
whatever it is, I'm ready to getout of here.
We said okay, we know we'll bedone.
So she didn't even come back in.
I mean, he was of age, he wasokay to be in there by himself
and they ended up findingsomething to laugh about.
I'll never forget the way thatcircle ended with.
I mean, it's about why were weall in the park in the first
place?
You know, why are we on swingsor little kids, why are we there
?
They just started laughing andtalking and so everybody, I mean
, and everybody shook hands andslapped shoulders in the end,

(01:11:22):
but mostly it was that it tookthat time, because most of the
time we don't have time or wedon't take time.
Everything's moving very fastand a very fast clip.
Let's get this done in court.
Step up to the judge.
How do you plead?
Okay, case, continue.
Come back.
Attorneys, are you ready?
You know, like you don't.

(01:11:43):
You're not even encouraged totry and talk or share or get to
know, much less repair harm, andso I mean that's one of the
ones I remember the most,because it wasn't anybody we
knew, right, it was, you know,just straight out of court.
And it was unusual that the casebe referred like that,

(01:12:03):
particularly a hate crime case,where they had labeled a hate
crime case, circles before thatand most of those.
Like, we did a lot ofcelebration circles and we did
healing circles and we didre-entry circles when people
were coming back to school frombeing, you know, kicked out for
whatever reason, or you know, we, we, we tried to teach people

(01:12:28):
mostly that circles don't needto be complicated, they don't
have to be fancy, nobody needs acredential, that you don't need
to have a master's degree or aPhD or any kind of degree at all
.
You just need to have a heartand a willingness to sit with
people and work your best, tryyour best not to be judgmental
and not to decide that you knowwhat should be the outcome.

(01:12:49):
And there's a lot of otherstuff in there too, but mostly
none of it requires, requiresnone of.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
It requires, like that, formal education.
It requires, um, like you said,showing up as yourself,
embodying the values and like.
Those are some of the thingsthat, like that, we teach.
But, like you, you learn thosethings really by participating
in the process, um, andpracticing, sometimes doing it
well, sometimes messing it upright, and learning from that um

(01:13:19):
.
Is there a time that stands outto you about like oh man, like,
oh, like oh yes do you mindsharing one of those and what
you learned from it?

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
so, yeah, actually that was a really important
lesson and still remains animportant lesson.
So it was a community orseveral different organizations,
and there have been some issuesof and this was serious some

(01:13:52):
issues of sexual assault by aperson that worked within one of
the organizations, andeverybody took sides, right,
even within the organizations,people had taken sides on, I

(01:14:13):
mean, not siding with the personwho was the abuser, but
figuring that if we don't workwith that person, support that
person, then he'll never, hewon't have an opportunity to
change because he doesn't havethe resources himself.
So somebody needs to supporthim.
But how are we then supportingthese young women, right?

(01:14:36):
And so there was this strugglewithin the community.
This happened a while ago, andso we were called in.
And we were called in becauseeverybody had decided that they
knew what should happen and thatand not just that the person

(01:15:00):
who was the abuser who needed tocome and you know, and you know
sort of fess up but that thepeople that were supporting him
needed to stop.
And that's not how circles work.
It's not like, okay, we'regoing to come in and we're going
to hold people accountable,right, we're going to decide

(01:15:23):
that this is what should happen.
That's not how they start.
They start with relationshipbuilding.
They start with spending sometime, even with people that you
struggle with, to basicallyhumanize each other enough.
So that I care about listeningto you.
You know I do want to hear whatyou have to say, and and and

(01:15:46):
that the values that are soimportant in circle, so in every
circle, one of the things youdo towards the very beginning is
to ask people you know to thinkabout or to imagine how, where
and how and with whom it is thatthey feel safe.
And then what do you need tofeel safe or to feel like you
can be yourself and be fullypresent and open up in a circle,

(01:16:08):
in this circle space, and youknow the values are pretty
fundamental.
You know respect.
I need people to be respectfulof me.
I need people to listen.
I need to be know respect.
I need people to be respectfulof me.
I need people to listen.
I need to be fully present.
I need people to be patientwith me.
You know, when in circles wepass what we call a talking
piece and it's an object thatmeans something to the person

(01:16:29):
that offers it into the centerand usually we ask everyone to
bring a talking piece and toplace it in the center after
they've explained what it meansto them, and then use that piece
as we go throughout the circle,but also keep them in the
center.
So people always see themselvesin the center, they always see
themselves in the space theyhave something to when they get
nervous or upset, something thatthey can even sort of focus in

(01:16:53):
on, um, and you know so, one ofthe values is honoring the
talking piece.
When you have is youropportunity to talk and to speak
from your heart and honestly,and when you don't, it's a
wonderful opportunity to listenand to see listening as an
opportunity.
So, but it was a strugglebecause you know, for for a lot

(01:17:13):
of reasons, you know, people hadsort of taken sides and but
people wanted to get to, youknow, let's get to what's going
to happen, let's get to whatpeople you know, what, what you
know, but they weren't ready toget there.
And so I felt me and the othercouple of people that were doing

(01:17:34):
the circle we felt like we were, like they felt like we were
holding them back, like we'reready to go, we're ready to
write an agreement, we're readyto move on with this, but they
weren't, because they reallyweren't listening.
It's like they came in the sameway that they were and they had
not really taken into accountwhat other people were saying.
And so part of me felt likethen maybe I need to step out of

(01:17:57):
this, like maybe I am in theway, right, maybe they this is
as far as they're going to get,and I'm just invested in a
different outcome, right.
And then I, you know, spend sometime thinking and talking with
other people that had not keptthinking I wish Ora was here,
because Ora, you know, she didso much domestic violence work

(01:18:19):
and she would have known how tohandle this and she would have
known the different.
You know, I'm thinking strategyand now I'm thinking legal.
I'm just like, stop, that's notwhat this.
Yes, I do need Ora here, butshe is here, right, and what
she's telling me is to followyour gut, kindly follow your gut
, right.
And so I just, you know, Iended up talking to some other

(01:18:41):
people, you know, who areoutside that circle, you know,
not sharing anythingconfidential, because
confidentiality is a fundamentalcircle of circle value, but
just, and they said, it's movingtoo fast, people are trying to
rush it and it can't be rushed,and so maybe what you need to do
is invite them to slow down orinvite them to consider some
other questions, and we actuallytalked through what those

(01:19:03):
questions were and see if thathelps.
So, long story short, it didhelp, because the invitation was
to imagine how you could seethat person that caused the harm
fully integrated into thecommunity.
What would have to happen likeimagine that, let's, let's

(01:19:25):
vision that and let's visionwhat these young women you know
feeling safe again, right, andand what?
What would need to happen forthat and then for you to feel
that you can once again, youknow, be fully committed to the
community.
What is that?
And so we spend a lot of timeimagining, you know, which may

(01:19:47):
sound silly, but sometimes youhave to really think about what
you need before you can justdecide what demands you want to
make of somebody else, like whatdo I need, you know, because it
may be that what you think youneed is not exactly.
It's coming from your head andnot so much from your heart, um,

(01:20:07):
or so.
Anyway, just know that.
And for the one circle we endedup doing five circles and people
would say, oh, my God, what awaste of time.
Blah, blah, blah, but it wasn't, because it was about the
community coming together andfeeling itself and beginning to

(01:20:29):
feel the people and to feel thestresses of people, and not just
their weaknesses and not justthe things that really you know,
you know cause them so muchdistress, but remembering their
value.
And so it was hard, though,because I felt like I'm in the
way.
You know, I want somethingdifferent, but all I wanted was
to give the space time forpeople to really feel each other

(01:20:50):
.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
So those are some of the things that you've learned
with uh, doing peace circles,knowing that, like it's not a
really quick fix, a lot of timespeople are looking for that, um
, and that's not what this workis about.
Um, but you started anorganization called community
justice for youth institute, uh,with aura shub, and this is
after the community Panels forYouth.

(01:21:13):
Tell me about the process ofstarting that and what you all
have done since.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
So actually, while we were still at Northwestern and
we had broadened our team forCommunity Panels for Youth and
Bernadine was actually had cometo totally embrace restorative
justice, which was alwaysamazing to me because she was

(01:21:41):
such a fierce advocate.
But then so was Aura right, Insome ways so was I, but they
took it to a whole new level,which was beautiful.
But some of the other powersthat be at the law school were
really not happy with usengaging all of our law students
in this restorative work.
So we told people you will doone third traditional law, you

(01:22:06):
will do one third restorativejustice work, and then the rest
of it will be pure community.
Be pure community.
And what we'd say to them isthat when you get your law
degree from Northwestern peopleand you know you're going to go
to work for some little fancylaw firm we know some of you
will, and that's okay and peopleare going to ask you to sit on
their boards and their boardsare going to be trying to give

(01:22:27):
money to those poor people inthe neighborhoods.
And we want you to be able tonot speak for those people in
the neighborhoods or thosecommunity organizations.
We want you to bring thosepeople to the table to meet
those board members.
We want you to take the boardmembers out to the neighborhood
to meet those people, becauseyou're going to have a voice and
we want you to know how to useit, and so I think they probably

(01:22:51):
would have been okay.
We had just done rj work, buttaking you to the neighborhoods
and to the different prisons andhaving some episodes.
They were exciting but, youknow, a little little crazy.
And so we started to get pushedback in a way that I feel like
we didn't deserve.
I mean, I feel like we wereopening up our this legal clinic

(01:23:13):
to something there, no otherother.
There were other legal clinicsin the country that were doing
it, but certainly none inChicago.
And so Tony Curtis, who is theblood and soul that's not how
you say it, it's the guts of theChildren and Family Justice
Center, she kept us all moving,kept us all on task.
She said maybe it's time foryou all to start your

(01:23:35):
organization.
Start an organization.
We're gonna start it.
But after about a year wethought maybe, so Maybe that's
what we do need to do.
And so, and Tony actually gotthe paperwork done for us and
presented it to us, and so wesaid okay.
And I'll never forget when wehad sort of left our positions

(01:24:01):
at the legal clinic and we'relike, okay, so now we have no
salary, we have no office, wehave this great idea for what we
want to do, we have a name, youknow.
And we realized we know how topractice law.
We don't really know how to runan organization, but then all
we had to do was open our armsand ask, and people were so

(01:24:23):
generous and so loving and sohelpful, um, and so people
really embraced us and said, no,this is good work, but that we
were still doing communitypanels for youth, we're doing
some circle work.
But that's at the point whenNorth Lawndale was just really
getting strong and we weresupporting that and so.

(01:24:44):
But Robert Spicer, who was withus?
I have to say this really quick.
So Robert Spicer is an amazingbrother and he came to us.
He had been, he had beenteaching third grade at a
elementary school inCabrini-Green right, and he
wanted to do something different, and so when he came to us he
didn't even know whatrestorative justice was.
But it didn't matter because hecame and he's gonna kill me for

(01:25:08):
this, but his, he had a allsuited up and his shirt was
hanging sort of out of the suitand he had cufflinks, but he
didn't have a cufflink in and hewas so nervous he was sweating
bullets.
And I had an office where if youwent, if you stepped up, you

(01:25:33):
could step out of my window ontothe roof, and so sometimes we
would just have meet people outon the roof.
It was ridiculous, all atnorthwestern right.
Um, so this one guy, jeffjeffrey banks, who's now an
esteemed funder.
Now he came in from the window,stepped down onto the sofa and
sat down and joined theinterview with Robert Spicer,

(01:25:56):
and I thought Spicer was goingto be.
I know he was like what theheck am I doing here and why am
I doing it?
Anyway, he became like the leadperson with community panel.
He actually stayed with the.
I remember him calling hismother saying I'm going to be
working at NorthwesternUniversity in the next week.
I'm not at Northwestern.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
University anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
We're out in the neighborhood so.
But he was a beautiful soul andso he moved with us and some
other people did too, and so wedid that for a while.
And but we begin to integratecircles more and more and more.
So CJ Community Justice forYouth Institute retained this
relationship with the courtinitially, and then we decided

(01:26:38):
why don't we think more abouthow we go?
We support communities more,because otherwise this is, this
is too much court and not enoughcommunity.
And so early on, when, after wehad moved, before we moved, we
ran into um father kelly, heactually came, dropped by to
visit us.
Kate Prentice had told him tocome see us and so we started

(01:27:01):
doing collaborative work withthe program at Precious Blood,
which has grown and grown andgrown, and we began to do more
collaboration with neighborhoodresources.
So we didn't have to.
We weren't trying to go in andmeet everybody.
We would go on to readilyestablished community entities
and teach them and then let themuse it as they chose.

(01:27:28):
Cjy has been the hardest thingI've ever done and it's probably
I've probably done the bestwork I've ever done as part of
it.
And I remember when we leftNorthwestern or said I cannot
believe I'm leaving doing.

(01:27:49):
She was doing some majorimmigration work.
She was doing, you know, justsome really major deep cases and
we actually had had some prettysignificant murder cases, even
as part of the not murder, yeah,and so we had to really think
about and we decided that, yeah,this was the right path.
In fact, it was the only path,because there was a path that

(01:28:13):
was going to open up into aforest, that was opened up to a
river, that was going to open upinto the whole rest of the
world, and that's what it turnedout to be.
I mean, from from starting inAustin and North Lawndale, I
mean it took us to to Kenya andto Cape Town and to Rio and to

(01:28:34):
the favelas, and I I mean weended up in all kinds of places
that I never would have dreamedof going, doing the RJ work and
learning more, just learning.
People all over the world areinvested in doing it differently
, are seeing justice as notabout courts but as about

(01:28:56):
community and people.
When we were in Brazil, we werein Bahia and we met a judge and
this is a judge who is still intouch she actually is part of
our circle for circle keepersthat you actually facilitate and
she recently has written a bookabout restorative justice,

(01:29:18):
isabel.
But she introduced us, she tookus to a youth prison.
I will never forget this and soshe said you know, there's a
really wonderful, there's awoman warden and she's really
great.
And so we, I mean we met thewarden and she took us into this
huge area and these boys it wasa boys facility and everybody

(01:29:39):
had a big loom and they wereweaving.
I mean, they were making themost beautiful tapestries and
and and just different items.
I remember talking to one youngman.
I said so.
I said so, do you ever get achance to meet the people who
you know get your, you know getthe things that you make?
He said, oh, yes, they come in.
I said they come in and he said, yeah, they come in.

(01:30:01):
We, you know, we have dayswhere we have things for sale
and they come in and they get tobrowse.
I said really.
He said, yeah, or we take ouritems out and we sell them, like
you take them out.
And so then I remember talkingto the warden.
I said this is reallyinteresting.

(01:30:22):
So they actually get to go out.
And she said, well, how elsewould they learn or relearn how
to be in community.
If they're isolated from peoplein the neighborhood, in the
communities that they're goingto go home to, how do they
develop relationships that arestrong enough to support them
when they get out?
And I said, well, what elsehappens?
She said, well, you know, likewe have sports.
I said, oh, so you let theteams from the other schools

(01:30:43):
come in?
She said, no, we play all oursports on their fields, at their
schools, and like they go out,she kept looking at me like what
do you all do?
They're incarcerated, they'rekept in cells.
Maybe they get to walk the yardor, you know, they have

(01:31:07):
activities, but there's nothought of integrating the folks
who are inside with the folkswho are outside.
I mean, more and more there isnow.
But I was just blown away and Ikept thinking, thinking, you
know, we have to be able to seeit, to imagine it, but we need
to get better at just imaginingit.
Right, what is it that we wantfor people?
You know, what experiences,what lives, what, what resources

(01:31:29):
?
Because otherwise, if we limitourselves to what we can see
right now, we're never going toachieve what we really want to
see.
And so, just, I mean, we spent aweek, a week and a half, in
Nairobi, and we were with agroup of.
We stayed at a convent it wasso cold, anyway and so people

(01:31:54):
came in to the convent.
It was like a four-day training, and I'll never forget.
There was a group of people whothis was around election time
and what they were trying to dois give these people the skills
to go back and hold circles intheir different areas of the
country to prevent the kind ofviolence that had happened
during the prior election.
And so I had read about theMaasai warriors, I had read lots

(01:32:20):
of things, and then to meetpeople who confirmed everything
I ever read about how powerfulthey were, but how kind they
were and how the whole conceptof caring for children the
Syrian and Gera.

Speaker 1 (01:32:34):
How are the children?

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
Yes, exactly right, and how it was political times
so people would come with theircolors on, like the orange was
for one party and the red wasfor another party.
And I remember Orrister, Ireferred to them as their gang
colors and they liked that term.
They're like, yeah, my gangcolors.
We're like no, you don't wantto use that, don't pick that up

(01:32:55):
from us, but anyway and so.
But I never forget just thewhole lesson that one of the
messiah guys said.
He said, you know we sit incircle a lot, you know we live
out and they're just open planes, you know, he said, but the
reason why we sit in circle,even just for our meetings where
we're planning our strategy,you know, for even war, you know

(01:33:16):
, traditionally is that whenyou're in circle, somebody
always has your back, becausesomebody's always looking right.
What you can't see, somebodyelse can always see.
And I just thought about that,that there's so many different
ways to think about circle.
And but they talked about thejust the, just the, the geometry

(01:33:36):
of the circle is being soimportant, and so it made me
think that every single elementof this has been thought about
over time, you know.
And so I kept thinking what arewe adding to that?
You know what are wecontributing to?
The?
The, not just the knowledgebase, but the emotional and

(01:33:58):
health history of what thisprocess is.
And I think I just fell in lovewith circles then.
I felt once I realized thatpeople all over the world are
engaging in these practices.
I saw ceremonies.
I saw people doing capoeira incircle.
I saw, you know, people prayingin circle.
I saw, you know, people prayingin circle.
I watched there was a baby thathad been born and they were

(01:34:19):
having the baby.
You know, gathering or partythat's not what you call it, but
you know, in circle.
And I just realized that, youknow, it's so much part of all
of our cultures.
Like, why aren't we embracingit that way?
Like to think of it only intimes of conflict is to waste
the energy and the beauty andthe heart of that space.

(01:34:42):
So that's what being a CGOIjust gave us time and space to
just explore it as it'shappening, you know, all over,
and then to invite people tocome in and teach us and that's
been one of the great pleasurestoo and then to invite people to
come in and teach us, andthat's been one of the great
pleasures too.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
Yeah, so to be like super Western what does CJYI do?

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
So we are technically a training institute and, if
you want to, it absolutely istraining loosely right.
I mean we do do.
So what do we do?
We do one of the things welearned from Kay Pranas and then
also from people like you know,rita in Oakland and folks on

(01:35:31):
the Rita Alfred.
Rita Alfred in Oakland and folkson people on the Isu, jasa
Balaga and Danielle Sered andall the brothers and sisters I
met in Oakland through the BurnsInstitute.
You know it's that we're allcoming at this because we want
to see something better, right,we know there's a better way.

(01:35:54):
We know that people aren'tdisposable.
You know, we know that.
And the question has been buthow do we hold people right, how
do we care about them?
How do we prevent them frombeing thrown away?
And circles can hold and I'veseen circles hold all kinds of

(01:36:15):
hate, all kinds of racism, allkinds of harm.
Um, and so what we, what weattempt to do, is to give people
.
You know, one of the things wedo is we do a monthly and now
it's become more than monthlyfour-day training, training in

(01:36:35):
quotes, right experienceexperience experience, right, um
, and what we decided was weweren't gonna initially even
train people or give them theexperience of dealing with
conflict, you know, or deepconflict that we want.
We would give people theexperience of community building
, relationship building, healingcircles of understanding.

(01:36:59):
Because what we learn and welearn this from doing work in
schools right is that if youteach people how to address
conflict, then all they will dois address conflict.
People will see it as a waybecause you know restorative
justice, justice is about harm,or you know incidents of

(01:37:20):
violence and how do we addressthat violence?
No, how do I have a chance toeven feel and hear myself and
what I care about and what Ineed?
Because until I do that, it'shard for me to hear you and to
care about what you need,because nobody's hearing me.
And so, teaching people, givingthem a space to just feel what

(01:37:45):
it feels like, to be fullypresent, to feel what it feels
like to hear something thatoffends you and not immediately
judge it and react to it to, butto think about okay, I wonder
why that person said that, andto be able to say I'm not sure
why you said that, because it'smaking me feel I'm upset.

(01:38:06):
But tell me, tell me whatyou're thinking or what am I?
When do we have that time?
When do we have community?
People really, really, really,really sit with the police?
When do I sit with the police?
A whole circle of 22 policeofficers.
And I'm carrying with me one ofthe talking pieces I always

(01:38:27):
carry, which is a mask that waspainted by my goddaughter right
and she painted it and it's gotstripes, colored stripes, on the
face of it.
She painted it during one ofher hospitalizations.
She has some mental healthissues and when I asked her why
she painted it that way, shesays so you can use it in some
of your circle so that you cantell people about me.

(01:38:48):
And, more importantly, whenthey see that I've painted the
different colors, think of thoseas layers and think of those as
layers of masking ourselves,and maybe in the circle they'll
feel safe enough to take off alayer or two.
She said, because I don't get toremove a lot of mine.
She said but maybe they'll getto remove some of theirs and

(01:39:12):
that's how I see circles.
To me that's the biggestbenefit, because once you feel
that space and once you decideyou want to learn how to keep
that space.
You can use it for everythingbut.
But it's also really importantreally to use it a lot for
yourself, to sit in spaces whereyou are healing yourself, where

(01:39:32):
you are letting yourself takeoff a few layers of a mask,
right when you're not trying todeal with somebody else's family
, but just sitting with your ownfamily, and you know, trying to
process and really hear them,and not just waiting to be heard
, but really listening tounderstand.

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
Yeah, and so if people want to engage with
community justice for youthright now, how could they do
that?

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
Well, we have a website.
It's cjyiorg, and we have awonderful, wonderful person
named Joanne Archibald who willrespond to any question or
anything on the website.
That's the best way to reach usor anything on the website.
That's the best way to reach us.
That's really the best way toreach us.
You can also email us atcjypeace at gmailcom.

(01:40:24):
Yeah that peace at gmailcom.
Thank you so much.
Actually, what you all don'tknow is that David, thank God,
worked with us to help get us tobe a real organization, so
serious kudos and thanks david,really serious.

Speaker 1 (01:40:40):
We'll definitely have all of that linked in the
description for folks to checkthat out.
Um, we're coming up on our timefor this conversation because I
am gonna pull you back becauseyou've had such a great time
with us today, but I have acouple quick questions that I
want to ask you, just like firstthing that comes to your mind.

Speaker 2 (01:40:59):
So restorative justice is a way to learn more
about yourself and to heal.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
What is one situation that you wish people really
knew?
This work Place or situationSetting?

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
Schools, because young people, teachers,
administrators, all come to thathouse, where they used to go to
the schoolhouse every day,right, and they're trying to
create an environment oflearning and what I've learned

(01:41:43):
is that the first learning hasto be about ourselves and who we
are, and so that social,emotional learning, that space
to really learn how to feelpeople, how to listen to people,
how to have emotionalintelligence, that all of that
that seems to take backspace toreading, writing and arithmetic

(01:42:05):
Circles gives you an opportunityto do all that and to have fun
with it.
You know, I want people toexperience circles initially and
be laughing.
You know laughing, knowlaughing loud, right, and
laughing with each other andbegin to.
Somebody said something and it'slike oh, you too.
You felt that when thathappened to you, that happened

(01:42:27):
to you too, like thoseconnections that are not
expected but so natural, becausethen it's like you're not the
other anymore, you're somebodythat felt the exact same thing I
felt, or something so like it,and I thought I was the only one
, or that thing that happened.
That felt like a paper cut,like I can't talk about it
because it's not enough thatsomebody else talked about.

(01:42:48):
Like, oh, my god, yes, yes, yes, people need to be able to see
each other.
You know, salvona, you know Isee you, and I think if we can
see each other, then we can moveon, we can move forward.

Speaker 1 (01:43:06):
The follow-up question is just hanging there,
so I have to ask it how do we dothis work in schools as
currently constructed?

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
Here's what I've learned you can't talk to people
about circle.
It's hard to even talk topeople.
I mean, you can do a workshopon, you can do workshops on
restorative justice, but peoplehave to feel it and experience
it.
And just a quick, quick, shortstory I went with a Chicago
Public Schools administrator whogave me very specific

(01:43:35):
instructions Do not pull out anyof those talking pieces, do not
pull out any of those sillycards you use, don't pull out
any of those stuffed animals.
And really could you just asksome serious questions.
And I just nodded.
I didn't nod in a sense, I justnodded right.
I had my circle back back.
She said I hope you leave thatcircle bag in the car.

(01:43:56):
Of course I didn't.
So it was a meeting ofadministrators, of people who
are over like maybe 10 schoolseach.
Right.
These people meet once a month.
Every month most of them havebeen doing this same meeting
with these same people over aperiod of like maybe five, six,
seven or eight years.
So luckily, the person thatgave me those instructions they

(01:44:17):
got called to some other thingdown the hall and so I walk in
and these people are lookinglike what are we going to do?
And so I said it's a good word.
I said how you doing?
I'm kind of tired, that's all.
Well, we need an icebreaker,right?
John's going to tell me don'tdo any of those silly
icebreakers, we need anicebreaker.
So we do something that's reallygetting people to talk
one-on-one.
You ask silly questions what'syour favorite dance move?

(01:44:38):
From fifth grade?
You know, uh, just anything youknow.
If you could be anywhere else,but here, where would you be?
And people, just easy questionsthat people just began talking
and laughing.
You know one-on-one and youmove to a different group of
people and then we sat down.
Somebody said wow, that feltgood.
What else do you have for us?
I said why don't we check in?
Of course, she told me don'tbring out any of my cards.

(01:44:59):
But I brought up these picturecards, right, you know the
Chichi cards, right.
And I said just pick a cardthat speaks to how you're
feeling right now or somethingabout your personality.
They all got up eager to do it.
People pick cards.
They're laughing at eachother's cards.
We sit back down and I saidfirst introduce yourself.
So they started out introducingthemselves as Mrs So-and-so or
Miss So-and-so.

(01:45:19):
I said no, no, no, introduceyourself.
They said we are.
I said no, what's your name?
Well, I said, like your firstname.
They didn't know it.
They've been meeting for years.
They didn't know each other'sfirst, so they reluctantly gave
up their first name.
And then one, the first womanthat spoke, she had picked up
the card with the cornucopia.
You know the fruit coming outof the, you know the basket.

(01:45:42):
And she got teary because itwas in early November.
And she said you know, she gaveher name.
She said, wow, you know.
She said well, my name is, youknow, cynthia.
The people call me Cookie, youall can call me Cookie.
So now they don't only know hername, they know her nickname.

(01:46:02):
So they're all smiling aboutbeing able to call her Cookie,
right?
And she says you know, I saythat because my mom always
called me Cookie.
She said and Thanksgiving'scoming up, you know, she passed
a couple of weeks ago, in factit's two weeks to the day.
Nobody knew her mother, nobodytalks about their families,
right?
And so somebody else took outsome Kleenex and brought it over

(01:46:23):
to her, and so she's talkingabout her mom and how
Thanksgiving was a hugecelebration for them.
And so then, you know, so shetalks about that, and so she
passes the talking piece, whichwas the mask that my goddaughter
had made, and she passes that.
And the next person said wow,you know, I picked the sunrise
because that reminds me of mydaughter who passed?

(01:46:45):
You know.
So it could have been reallysad, but it was illuminating
because and people, then otherpeople you know, talk about
other things, but they wereeager to share their first names
and they were eager to talkabout things.
That meant something to oneperson's daughter you know, I
just had something, some surgery, and and she started crying.
And then the next person saidwell, you know, my daughter had

(01:47:05):
surgery recently and let me tellyou how we got through it.
And by the time we got done andthank God, that woman didn't
come back before we got donebecause of the time we got she,
we got done.
I said.
I said well, you know, we don'thave much time left I said we
should do a checkout.
I said what if, during thecheckout and I know this is
going to be corny, but sing afew lines from one of your

(01:47:26):
favorite songs, sing, you wantus to sing?
I said yeah, and I'll start.
Of course, I can't sing, and,david, you know I can't sing,
but that never stopped me, andso I think I sang this little
lot of mine or something right,and they all joined in when I
started singing.
So that really was.
We just saying that and peoplekept adding verses.
So that was really the onlysong.

(01:47:47):
And then people just checkedout about you know, and I said,
okay, why don't you check out?
You know what's your light, youknow what's the light for you,
and for a number of them theybecame each other's lights, you
know.
And so it doesn't take a lot,it doesn't, you know?
You, you think you bring thingsfrom home or somewhere that
matter to you.
You have some chairs, you know.

(01:48:08):
You put a piece of cloth in thecenter that represents
something meaningful.
One guy I was in a circle acouple of weeks ago.
He was incarcerated when he wasa juvenile, he was 17.
He was incarcerated for 25years.
He was in segregation the firstseven years and when he was
finally released he could.
Somebody brought him this blackleather jacket to wear out.

(01:48:30):
So when he keeps his circles helays that black leather jacket
down and puts his talking pieceon top of that.
So you know, but just the womandidn't come back.
But these women said will youcome next month?
Will you come to our circlenext month?
I said I don't know.
You need to ask Dr So-and-so.
She says, ok, we'll do it.
They became, and so I guess, interms of schools.

(01:48:51):
We give the experience to thepeople that can make the
decisions for us.
We give the experience to thepeople that can make the
decisions for us.
We start with them.
I mean, I start with theparents on the outside and the
administrators on the inside,because they think the circles
are to fix the teachers right orto fix the students.
And it's not about fixinganybody.
It's about giving people anopportunity to really meet

(01:49:14):
themselves and to meet otherpeople and to develop some
healthy relationships so thatwhen we do have some issues or
do have some struggles, we'vealready had celebrations
together.
We already have a sense of eachother and I already care enough
about you to listen to what youhave to say and know that
you're not saying it to hurt me.

Speaker 1 (01:49:36):
That'll teach me to answer.
That'll teach me to ask afollow-up question what is one
thing you want everybodylistening to this podcast to
know?

Speaker 2 (01:49:51):
the revolution is about self-love no follow-up
question.

Speaker 1 (01:49:58):
Who's one person I should have on this podcast?
Just one, okay, no well, okay,so I'll say this if you say
their names, you have to put mein touch with them.

Speaker 2 (01:50:09):
So okay, so you gotta have rita alfred okay from
oakland.
You gotta have Sujatha Baligafrom Oakland.
You gotta have Fania Davis fromOakland.
You you gotta have Duana Nicole,who's like the most brilliant
genius person I know aroundschool stuff um you gotta have

(01:50:34):
um Pamela Purdy, because sheknows how to make a circle fun
and go deep as well as anybody.
I know um Father Kelly, fatherDavid Kelly, from Precious Blood
, who's been walking this walkand he walks it in a way that is
very deep and meaningful, Imean and for him to come and

(01:50:55):
talk about what they've beendoing with you know folks who
are, you know, coming home fromprison, sort of develop,
building spaces for them in thecommunity so they have a place
to come to, giving themmeaningful work, so they're not
just languishing somewhereWatching people come home from
prison and have a life beyondtheir wildest dreams it's, and

(01:51:21):
having some of those men youknow ray, phil and chili and
adolfo and jojo and you know I'mtelling, have them one of the
group.
Oh my god, I I get such joy fromseeing them.
They have a hospitality deskand other people from the
Restorative Justice CommunityHubs Emmanuel Andre coming on

(01:51:42):
with some of the youth that dothe hip-hop RJ piece right,
having people from Matt's groupand Little Village, you know,
having people from Also havingpeople from Coco.
I mean, the Restorative JusticeCommunity H hubs are spaces in
neighborhoods that are totally-.
In Chicago Sorry y'all, y'allneed to do it too, wherever you

(01:52:03):
are that are totally infused andpart of the neighborhood and
before it became restorativejustice community homes
sometimes they feel like homeshubs, hubs.
They were already beingrestorative, like the the one in
little village that matt domatoruns.
We met him and we said you know, okay, so you have young people

(01:52:24):
come.
Every young person on probationin that neighborhood is sent to
that center.
When I say sent, I mean they'reoffered an opportunity to go
and they go.
And the way they meet theiryoung people is not through some
okay, okay, what's your nameand where do you live and how
many kids in your family?
And blah, blah, blah, blah it's.
We have Friday dinner once amonth.
We'd like to invite you andyour parents and your siblings

(01:52:46):
to come.
So you come and you sit attables that have been set with
food you want to eat and musicplaying, and then there's a room
for the adults to be after themeal and the room for the kids
to young people to be, and soit's once again like how do we
build in relationships andknowing that your family is
important, so how do we let themknow where you're going to be

(01:53:07):
coming and what we're going towork on and what do you need
from them, and what do you needfrom us?
you know it's like how do wejust treat people like we want
to be treated, right?
It's so fundamental, it's sobasic and it feels so good.
Restorative justice feels good,that's what I want to say.
Restorative justice, whenyou're doing it in a way that is

(01:53:28):
following the traditions andthe cultures where it was
initially practiced, it feelsreal good.

Speaker 1 (01:53:36):
So you're going to put me in touch with all of
those people absolutely and wewill follow up with this
conversation because, I mean,you and I get to have
conversations, but I think thebenefit of a podcast is that you
get to um impart your wisdom to, hopefully, the millions
eventually, but for now, uh, youknow, the few people who uh get

(01:53:57):
to listen to these air, goahead can I say when?

Speaker 2 (01:53:59):
can I just read what's on your shirt, so people
know what t-shirt you're wearing?

Speaker 1 (01:54:03):
yeah, can you read it ?

Speaker 2 (01:54:05):
yes, I know it, but I wouldn't write.
So david is wearing a beautifult-shirt that was actually
printed in one of the printingpresses at the precious blood
ministry of reconciliation herein chicago and it was made in
honor of Aura for the ceremonywe had when she passed and it
says the wind said you cannotwithstand the storm and Aura

(01:54:27):
said I am the storm, and Davidis wearing it proudly.
There's a picture of a woman'sprofile and her arms are back,
feeling the wind at her face andenjoying the storm.

Speaker 1 (01:54:40):
So thank you, david, so much as a reminder, the link
to the gofundme to supportcheryl's home health care is in
the description of this podcastepisode.
If you have the means, pleaseshare what you have.
We'll be back in this feed withmore episodes soon.
Until then, take care, be safe.

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