The Messy Birth of Rebellion: Andor, Movement Strategy & Restorative Resistance with Gabes Torres

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm David, Ryan, barsega, castro, harris all five
names for all the ancestors,and welcome back to the Amplify
RJ podcast.
I'm so excited for today'sepisode because we're talking to
the brilliant Gabes Torresabout one of my favorite recent
TV shows.
If you're familiar with theStar Wars show and or you can
skip the next couple of minutesbecause I'm imagining not

(00:20):
everyone listening to this hascontext for the show, so I want
to give you a bit of a rundownand some context for the show so
you understand the dynamicsthat Gabe's and I are talking
about.
So if you haven't seen it,andor is a Star Wars show that
is a prequel to Rogue One,following Cassian Andor, a thief
from the planet Canary whoselife is upended by the Empire's

(00:41):
relentless expansion.
Over two seasons, the showtraces Cassian's journey from
reluctant survivor to committedrebel, revealing not only his
personal transformation but allthe messy collective birth of
the Rebel Alliance.
But Andor isn't your typicalStar Wars tale of good versus
evil, jedi versus Sith.
It's a story of how ordinarypeople become radicalized, how
bureaucratic systems enable harmand how resistance movements

(01:04):
are often built from the groundup, often through disagreement,
scarcity and strategicadaptation.
And so, while the show is aboutthe heists, the adventures, the
plotting and the espionage.
It's also about all the humanto human moments on both sides.
So, again, for those who aren'tfamiliar with the show, I'm
going to give some context tosome of the characters who we're

(01:24):
going to be talking about inthe conversation.
Cassian is a former orphan fromthe planet Canary who grows up
on the planet Ferex after beingadopted by scavengers.
His journey is marked by traumaand loss as he survives as a
resourceful and morally complexfigure, sometimes a thief,
sometimes a mercenary, sometimesa killer.
Initially motivated by personalsurvival, his experiences with

(01:46):
imperial brutality and the lossof his adoptive mother drive him
to join the rebellion.
He evolves into a skilledintelligence officer, spy and
ultimately leader, playing apivotal role in the theft of the
Death Star plans.
Cassian is determined,pragmatic and willing to make
hard choices for the greatergood, embodying the grounded,
ambiguous nature of realrevolutionaries.
Now Bix colleen is cassian'slongtime friend and confidant
from barracks.

(02:06):
Resourceful and fiercely loyal,she operates the salvage
business and becomes entangledin the rebellion through her
connection to cassian.
Bix is courageous but pays aheavy price for her involvement,
enduring torture and loss atthe hands of the empire.
Her resilience and emotionaldepth ground the story's
depiction of ordinary peopleswept up in extraordinary events
.
Luthan real is a secretive andhighly strategic architect of

(02:28):
the rebellion.
Operating from the guise of anantiques dealer on the planet
Coruscant, he orchestratescovert missions and recruits key
operatives, including Cassian.
Luthan is uncompromising,willing to make morally
difficult decisions for thecause, and excels in balancing a
public persona with hiddenrevolutionary work.
His vision and ruthlessness arecentral to the early growth of
the rebel alliance.

(02:48):
Clea Markey is Luthan's trustedassociate, managing logistics
and communications for hiscovert operations.
She's highly competent,discreet and instrumental in
maintaining the secrecy andeffectiveness of the rebellion's
early activities.
Clea exemplifies the quietbehind the scenes work necessary
for resistance movements tosurvive and thrive.
Karis Nemec is a young,idealistic member of the Aldani

(03:10):
rebel cell.
As a political thinker and awriter, he provides the group,
and Cassian in particular, withrevolutionary theory and moral
clarity.
Nemec's manifesto articulatesthe philosophical underpinnings
of the rebellion and his passionthroughout inspires those
around him.
His tragic fate underscores thecost of resistance and the
enduring power of his ideas On.
Mothma is the principled andcourageous senator from the

(03:32):
planet Chandrila who becomes oneof the earliest and most
influential leaders of the rebelalliance.
In the show, she is portrayedas a masterful political
strategist, working from withinthe imperial senate to secretly
fund and coordinate therebellion, while navigating
immense personal and politicalrisk.
Mon's story is one of quiet,resilience and sacrifice.
She must balance her publicrole, strange family
relationships and the constantthreat of exposure, all while

(03:54):
striving to unite a fracturedopposition into a cohesive
movement.
Her unwavering commitment tojustice and democracy, even in
the face of great danger, makesher a moral anchor and visionary
architect for the fight againstthe empire.
We spend most of the time inthe face of great danger makes
her a moral anchor and visionaryarchitect for the fight against
the Empire.
We spend most of the time inthe episode talking about the
quote-unquote good guys, but acouple of the ops that we do
talk about are Orson Krennic andDejah Miro.
So Orson Krennic is anambitious Imperial officer

(04:17):
responsible for overseeing theconstruction of the Death Star.
He's manipulative, ruthless andobsessed with gaining favor
with the Empire's hierarchy.
Krennic's willingness toexploit and destroy entire
worlds for the sake of imperialpower make him a formidable
antagonist, embodying thebureaucratic horror of the
empire.
And Dedra Miro is an ambitiousand meticulous officer in the
Imperial Security Bureau, theequivalent of the FBI.

(04:39):
She excels at intelligence workand is relentless in her
pursuit of rebel activity,particularly on Ferex and then
the planet Gorman.
Her methodical approach andwillingness to bend the rules
for results make her botheffective and dangerous.
Her character highlights thebanality and brutality of
imperial power, as well as thepersonal ambitions that drive
its agents.
Of course, that's not a summaryof all the characters on the

(05:00):
show and this show is not acomplete breakdown of the themes
and the storylines and thecharacters represented in Andor.
But I'm really excited for butI'm really excited to let you in
on this conversation with Gabesand hear her thoughts as a
strategist, a healer and anoperator in our political times.
So let's get into it, gabes, itis so good to have you here.

(05:23):
I want you to be known in theways that you want to be known
to this audience.
So who are you?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
I am thankful, tired and here.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Who are you?

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Who are you?
I am a descendant of my Lola,who is a guerrilla warrior, and
of my Lolo, who is a militantpilot, and my Lola is a
guerrilla warrior in the realmof intel, and so I feel like a

(06:05):
lot of her work and a lot of herpassion around that I've
inherited who are you?
I'm an archipelago of a personwhere I am made up of many
different parts and interestsand I'm drawn to many themes.
Too much intersectionality,even who are you?

(06:33):
I am a free diver and I'm hopingto be a skilled surfer and I
hope to be a good enough friendof the ocean.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Who are you?
I believe in mythical creaturesand aliens and energy who are?

Speaker 2 (07:01):
you.
I am a lover of literature, offriendships, of the idea and
practice of the eroticconceptualized, popularized by
the great Audre Lorde.
I love love and I love poetryand deliciousness and embodiment

(07:24):
.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Finally for now, who are you?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Gosh, I am who.
I am because of who and where Ibelong.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
That one we're going to unpack, especially within the
context of this conversationabout andor.
Also, you're a rebel spy, we'regonna get there too.
Um, but before we get into allof that, to the extent that you
want to answer the questionright now for our community,
listening, how are you?

Speaker 2 (08:01):
how am I gosh?
Um, I am excited to have thisconversation with you and to
have a conversation about andor.
I will say that I'm a littleintimidated by those of by the
folks who are listening, who are, um, respectable star wars
nerds and lovers.

(08:21):
Um, I feel like I'm relativelynew to this conversation, even
though I've watched it since Iwas a kid.
But in this moment I am hopefuland excited and a little tired
because it's a little late mytime zone.
But yeah, in anticipation, yeah, and anticipation.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, there is so much excitement for me when I
saw you post that you wrotesomething about Andor.
For those of you who don't know, I did a series of podcast

(09:06):
conversations with GaleanMendoza about the TV show the
Last of Us a couple years ago,and I love having these
conversations about what popularmedia and storytelling can do
to apply to our lives right now,in the moment, and your
insights, which we're going toget to, ranging from the
banality of evil to the way thatwe are in conflict and the way
that that's necessary inmovement spaces and you know how
we're strategic about engagingwith ops can be so fruitful and

(09:27):
such stimulating ground formaking our resistance movement
stronger and moments ofconnection between people who
are fans of intellectualproperty, so we're going to get
into it.
And or, for those who don'thave an incredible amount of
context, is a star wars show,but it's not about the light

(09:49):
side of the force and the darkside of the force, but and the
jedi and the sith um, while wethink about the skywalker family
or palpatine or all of theseforces that play throughout the
whole galaxy.
And or is really of the storyof people who are building the
Rebel Alliance.

(10:09):
And you know it followsprimarily a man named Cassian
Andor.
But along the way he wasworking, he was supported by so
many people right, both in hiscontext on his new home planet,
pharax, and a lot of otherpeople along the way as he was

(10:30):
developing his role in the RebelAlliance.
And so when we follow thisstory of this man and all the
people in his community aroundhim, there were so many things
that came up right.
We talked about the ways thatrevolutions are built in the
political realm, ways thatrevolutions are built on the
ground, the way that imperialpowers or colonial powers or

(10:53):
empires devalue their own inorder to reach their own goals.
But I want to know, before wedive into any of that, I want to
know how you came to thisproperty of Andor.
You know back in season one andwhat your initial impressions
were and why you're like, oh mygosh, this show is my life.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
I did say that that my life purpose is Andor, but
what really drew me to Andor washow I mean it's very different
from the rest of the saga wherethere, at least from my
perspective um, it was mucheasier to caricaturize the, like

(11:42):
the figures of good and evil,caricaturize the uh, like the,
the figures of good and evil,and there were parts of, from my
experience, the saga that youknow, there was like the hero
and then there was the villain,and so the binary was clear from
my point of view.
But when I watched and or whatdrew me to this story is how it

(12:04):
felt like a sharp analysis ofpower and power and I mean power
not just like in the empire ornot even in the Republic, but
also in the rebellion, and howit kind of de-romanticized
resistance movements.
For me and from my point ofview and during that time, that

(12:24):
was like what?
2022, 2021, 2022, right, thatwas when I guess, like I'm also
a therapist and I'm also atherapist to a lot of folks in
movement spaces and mostly youthwho are also new to movement
spaces, where it's prettynatural or common for folks to

(12:46):
still have some degree ofdualistic mentality around good
and evil.
And the show was refreshingbecause again it de-romanticized
the revolution that it's justbecause everybody has shared
enough ideas and visions of whatcollective liberation, freedom,

(13:07):
decolonization could look likeDoesn't mean that we get along,
doesn't mean that we have thesame ideas about how to get to
collective liberation.
So as a therapist who wasn'tjust doing one-on-one or group
therapy with folks but also dida lot of like mediating conflict
, trying to practiceaccountability, infrastructures

(13:29):
and tools in movement spaces, Ifelt seen by the show because it
unveiled a lot of the messyparts on how to to and how to
get to the place that we aresafer, that we want to be, where
we fight our fight for ourhuman rights.

(13:51):
So it it was a.
It was definitely.
I was so shook that justutterly stunned that disney was
airing this, because it feltagain like very antithetical to
the platform um itself that theywere airing these insurgencies
that had detail and dialogue,that felt very reflective of I

(14:15):
mean, it's different in everycontext in every part of history
, but it felt similar enough towhat I've seen on the ground
yeah, I mean, and this isn'twholly a conversation about the
creators of these stories, right, but we can even think about
George Lucas thinking about theRebel Alliance as the Viet Cong

(14:35):
and the Galactic Empire as theUnited States in the Vietnam War
back in 1977, when the originalStar Wars was released.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Tony Gilroy is somebody who has thought deeply
about revolutionary movements,not just in this moment, where,
you know, many people can draw alot of parallels to what's
happening in this current momentand what's happening in the US,
in my context, globally, in thePhilippines, to some extent,
right, with authoritarianregimes trying to exert power

(15:04):
over those who they feel likethey can take from.
But you know, star Wars in manyways has always been a
revolutionary story where thereis evil.
There is very clear evil inEmperor Palpatine and his goals,
right, and that's existentthrough all nine movies and the

(15:24):
TV shows in between.
But almost everybody elsewithin that system of actors,
even from the imperial side or,you know, separatist side, if
you're thinking about the CloneWars they're all motivated in
some way by fear Right, some wayby fear right, um, and or have

(15:48):
been indoctrinated into a systemof believing that control, um,
and subjugation of people andorder is the way for things to
be, and those people are stillpeople.
Humans, um, who love, um, givelove, are loved um to varying
degrees of healthy expressionsof that, as we see especially in
the show um, but it's complexand, um, we have sympathy and

(16:12):
empathy for so many of thosecharacters as we see them
struggle to survive, um, under afascistic, uh, dictatorial
regime, uh, just like the people, um, who are explicitly um,
struggling against that and justtrying to survive day to day.
But speaking to the Disney ofit all too, I wanted to just
highlight a conversation that Ihad, if you go back in the

(16:35):
podcast feed about Black Panther2, right, disney, it is
surprising that Disney allowsthese things to continue to be
what were.
The plot of Black Panther 2 ishey, the CIA or FBI found
vibranium underwater and thenthey pitted the black and brown
people against each other.

(16:56):
And you know, I definitelyrespect Ryan Coogler as a
storyteller and filmmaker andeven when he has to go and work
under those like Disney spaces,like there's not fully the
opportunity to tell a fullyrevolutionary story.

(17:17):
And so I think, about thepositionality of Tony Gilroy as
a very well-respected white manwith a whole history of
filmmaker and in my listening tointerviews with him saying like
, hey, kathleen Kennedy, who'sthe head of Lucasfilm?
This is the story that I wantto tell, where the first scene
is a man going into a brothellooking for his sister and then

(17:40):
murdering a couple people andshe was like, okay, cool, but I
mean that's from the perspectiveof a white passing person Doing
some of those things.
Even though Diego Luna is ofMexican descent, we can talk
about all the colonial aspectsof the Spanish Empire and the
effects that that's had.
But the person who gets to tellthe story, tony Gilroy versus

(18:02):
Ryan Coogler and Black Panther,or even bringing like a ton of
hussy coats, uh version of blackpanther where like he wrote um
the comics like there.
It is surprising that like thisthing gets to be shared on on
disney platforms, uh, butgrateful that it does, so we
could have this level ofconversation no, I appreciatehmm

(18:23):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
No, I appreciate you naming that.
Yeah, it's tough withmainstream storytelling and
knowing how to I don't likeusing the term like knowing how
to play the game, but being ableto outmaneuver the politics
around how to make these storiesaccessible.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, I mean, and especially with Star Wars, where
it's such common language for I, I imagine many of us right.
Um, there's stories that wegrew up on.
My parents showed, my dadshowed me, uh, the original, and
I was like, so excited in 1999,uh, when you know this, the
prequels came out, and excitedfor episode seven and eight and

(19:03):
less excited about episode ninebecause that was terrible uh but
like have also like gravitatedtoward all the storytelling in
between um as ways to understandpower in the world um and how
we organize and how we build andhow we resist.
Um, I'm curious, within, likethis context of andor, um, you

(19:26):
wrote about a couple things.
Uh, what were the things thatuh stood out as like oh, we need
this right now in our movementas it exists so here's what I
wrote in the piece that might behelpful, um for context for
folks.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
So early in season two, a secret meeting takes
place in the Malthean Divide,krennic, and a curated circle of
imperial delegates gather todiscuss Gormen, a planet known
for the booming trade of Gormensilk, spun by the planet's
native spiders called the.
I still can't pronounce this.

(20:03):
Can you help me here?

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh no, Maybe gorlectopods.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Gorlectopods, sure, but Krennic was building up the
discussion in a corny retrofashion to reveal that he wasn't
exactly fixated on the fabric,but what lies underneath the
planet, which is chalcite.
And it's an ore so potent thatit could rewire the Empire's
power altogether, suggestingthat the mineral was needed to

(20:30):
build or fuel the Death Star.
And for that Krennic isprepared to tear through Gorman
to claim it.
And here Go ahead.
And it was this scene thatbrought chills to my spine
because the meeting was somonotonous, perhaps even boring

(20:54):
for some viewers and verytedious, but the outcome of that
meeting had destructive andeven fatal implications and
outcomes.
One part there was one of thedelegates even talked about as
they were trying to brainstormwhat to do, how to conduct this

(21:17):
systematized massacre.
One of them even mentionedstaging a disaster, and that
made my stomach drop because itmade me wonder, like in real
life, like how much of thathappened here in our, I guess,
like in our dimension, in ourreality.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
And again, like this is when the concept of banality
of evil comes to mind, that evenin the, the monotone and the
admin stuff, um, we have to payattention to when, um, evil and
cruelty and um, yeah, evilcreeps into the day-to-day

(22:01):
details yeah, yeah, I mean, andI think like this specific scene
, this meeting at the MaltheanDivide of the ISB, which is the
Imperial Secret Service Bureau,something like the intelligence
branch of the imperialgovernment, was mirrored

(22:21):
specifically after the WannseeConference in 1942, where the
Nazis were planning the genocideright.
And you know, tony Gilroy likeexplicitly talks about this,
like, yeah, they just planned itover lunch.
Like 15 members of the ThirdReich got together, hitler and
his leadership were like, howare we going to carry out this

(22:41):
genocide and not have it blow upin our face?
Right, because, like in thismeeting of the ISB officers,
they were talking about like oh,let's stage this natural
disaster.
What propaganda do we need touse to make it seem like the
rest seem okay?
Enough for the rest of theworld for us to be able to, you
know, extract these resources inorder for us, to, you know,

(23:03):
assert more dominance over therest of the empire?
And yeah, it's just verylogistical.
Hey, here's this PowerPointpresentation and let's have this
board meeting essentially aboutwhat the best course of action
is.
And you know, not only do theiractions in that meeting have
impact on the gores veryspecifically, because eventually

(23:26):
, right, there is a massacre andessentially not shown, but, um,
the planet is wrecked um, asand like, made uninhabitable, um
, by the mining operation thatuh goes on there so they can
complete the death star one andeventually the second version of
it as well.

(23:46):
Uh, but that's just not wherepeople um would think like, oh
yeah, that's what's happening ina board meeting right, yeah,
right.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
one thing that I remembered, too is just the role
of propaganda and how that uhwas successful enough that other
planets abandoned the gore,like they.
The meeting I can't actuallyremember if they discussed this
in the meeting, but what waspropagated was the idea that the
gore are arrogant and wealthy,that it made other people I

(24:25):
guess like the messaging whichis really, which feels like more
like in the context ofrevolutions, like it feels like
more of a 20th century frameworkor tool or idea, especially
with social media and theinternet.
But they were pretty successfulin getting others apathetic or
apolitical about all thetragedies that are happening to

(24:48):
the gore, and I feel like thatis also something that feels
real.
In our time.
Authoritative regime have beenspreading far and wide to pit us

(25:09):
against each other, especiallyin times where one of our
communities or what's ourversion of planet, like nation
states, are needing solidarityor international solidarity.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Right and simply like the way that things are covered
and framed or not covered.
Right, Because when we thinkabout, just this week that we're
recording this, 14,000Palestinian babies will die
versus two people were shot atthe US Israeli embassy Right.
Both are terrible things right,and one is being propagated by

(25:50):
a government.
The other was the act of oneperson.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
I was going to ask you a question Is that okay.
Yeah.
So I have not lived in theStates for a while and I've been
so curious about how it's beenfeeling there and I guess, like
the collective energy andeverything that's happening, it
feels like there's like oneexecutive order after another
that's being initiated andchanges are just happening

(26:19):
rapidly and I guess, like inlight of, maybe, in light of
propaganda, in light of, I guess, like in light of, maybe in
light of propaganda, and lightof, I guess, like in light of
and or like what are the linksthat you're making between the
story and where you're at rightnow?
I'm just curious about, I'mjust so curious.
I haven't been there and thedistance is.
It's one thing to hear aboutthe news, but it's another thing

(26:39):
to actually hear from somebodywho's there.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah.
So I think the overwhelmingsense of I'm a tired parent
trying to survive late stageglobal capitalism is what's
front of mind always.
I don't always absorb or it'snot really possible for me to
keep up with everything that'sgoing on.
I don't follow news in that wayand of course things trickle

(27:06):
down.
I feel disempowered in many waysto like have impact on what is
actually happening on thefederal government level.
I did not vote for Donald TrumpSurprise, surprise level.

(27:28):
I did not vote for Donald TrumpSurprise, surprise.
Most of the people when I saymost of the people, the majority
of people like 60 ish percentof the people in my city where I
live did not vote for Trump,and there are many people who
did.
I know that the nature of mywork as somebody who teaches
about restorative justice, assomeone who holds space for

(27:49):
people who are navigatingconflict dynamics and who
supports people in buildingcultures and communities rooted
in ideas of interconnection andcare and accountability, my work
is needed just as much as ever.
But, like I'm still doing mywork, yeah and so much of my

(28:09):
energy is now about navigatingthe day-to-day um waking up
multiple times a night with aone and three-year-old um and
trying not to lose my shit.
I hear you yeah um, and so likeI can't speak for I don't know
how much you're asking me tospeak for Americans versus this

(28:33):
one experience in.
Southern California.
Um, but that's, that's myresponse no, thank you.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
I need, we need specificity to reach
universality, so no doubt thatfolks would resonate.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Thank you for sharing yeah, but like, when it comes
to like what is my role?
Like my role is not that, likewhat is my role in resisting
right now, um, when I thinkabout andor and like what
everybody did, I am not outthere like shooting
motherfuckers, right, I'm notthere like building, uh,

(29:07):
building the resistance in thatspecific way maybe uh, if we go
back to season one of the show,I am a character in nemic who
wrote a manifesto right who,like inspired cassian and many
others, like at the very end ofseason two, we see that his
manifesto is has penetrated theentire galaxy and one of the isb

(29:29):
officers is listening to thisright before um, the end of the
season um.
But, like, when I think aboutthat, it's consciousness
building, it's aboutradicalization through words,
through media, through content,which you know we're engaging
right now.
And then nemic didn'tnecessarily do this part, but
you know, I hold space, I curatespaces for people to build
those skills, build thosepractices, to apply these.
We're engaging right now andthen Nemec didn't necessarily do
this part, but you know, I holdspace, I curate spaces for

(29:49):
people to build those skills,build those practices, to apply
these principles to the way thatthey engage in the world, in
their professional lives, right,as teachers, as DEI
professionals, as leaders oforganizations, as people who are
in relationship to each other.
And then, what does that mean?
When we go to the ballot box?
What does that mean?
When we show up to anorganizing event, what does that

(30:10):
mean?
when we uh are buildingmovements and organizing around
specific issues instead of likespecific issues and like in
electoral politics.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I, I love that you resonated with nemik, and
it's so.
It's really cool to see how themanifesto was only meant for
Andor and yet it echoed andreverberated to, I guess, like I
don't know how many more, butto basically more people, and so
I'm really hopeful that allthat you're building continues

(30:47):
to echo as well, and justreminds me of the theme of
legacy, I suppose, and how eventhe revolutions today they're
not.
They don't come from a vacuum.
They come from the alreadyexisting foundations and history
of past revolutions.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
It's not like we're starting from scratch, it's like
all it's all, like a, acontinuous thread yeah, yeah,
right, because, like, I'mbuilding on, like the, the work
of my teachers, and the, thework of so many others, and you
know everyone has their, theirrole to play.

(31:27):
I'm curious, you know, I insome ways identified as a nemic.
Like, who did you identify within this show?
Uh, if you were to put yourselfas a character or maybe like an
unseen role?

Speaker 2 (31:40):
yeah, I.
It's funny because, oh gosh,people would not be people.
People who know me wouldprobably be surprised by it,
unless I've been with you inorganizing spaces, because
sometimes I know that.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Can I make a prediction?
Can I make?
Oh yeah, I was gonna make aprediction.
I was gonna say you, um, youfeel like a clay to me yeah, but
but that was like, there waslike an order.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
So I do that sometimes I do get here's a
thing.
I know he's an insider insidemanipulator and but his
philosophy about things I gethim.
I don't like the way that hedoes it most of the time, but I
do get and it's probably becauseI we have more access to
luthens um it's luthen, by theway, so you didn't.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh yeah, he didn't say luthen luthen, kleia and
then vix.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
That's like the order of who I resonate with the most
um, but I think I say luthenbecause we get to hear more of
his speeches around, like thethemes of sacrifice and what he
had to give up on for um, therebellion and I identify with
some of his like, his tactics orhis strategic mind has to do

(32:59):
with like predicting and knowingyour opponent, and I think that
that's the the writing on thecharacter building and not just
like character building butreally understanding this
character.
I was just so drawn to Luthan'sability to imagine what it's
like to be in the opponent orthe enemy's perspective and I

(33:20):
think that that's something thatwe need in movement.
That often gets, I guess, likeoften gets missed because we go
straight away to tactic, wefigure out what kind of action
that we need to do withoutactually identifying our target.
And what I loved about Luthanis that he thinks first about
the opponent.
The organizing term here ispower structure analysis, where

(33:46):
you create like a my, like apower map, or you identify like
a primary and secondary target.
And what is it about thisprimary target?
What are the businesses thatthey have, what are the stakes,
what is their Achilles heel andsometimes, even though it feels
gross, you got to like imaginewhat it's like to be your

(34:06):
opponent, even though they'repolitically dirty, and you just
see a lot of their investmentsand a lot of what matters to
them, the people that they'reafraid of, the people who matter
to them.
That's how Luthan's mind worked.

(34:26):
He knew what he was up againstand I think that that's
something that what I noticed alot of organizers are trying to
avoid imagining what it's liketo be in the opponent's shoes,
but that's really important inmovement work, especially if
we're trying to come up withtactics, objectives and strategy
is to know who we are targetingto create the change that we

(34:51):
want or to disrupt the problemthat we notice, which can be a
political leader often is apolitical leader, but that's
what I appreciated about Luthan.
And then with Clea, honestly, Ihave these two worlds, david,
where I'm like this therapistwho's like warm, and I'm trying

(35:11):
to be loving and affectionateand listening.
But when I put my organizer haton, I not that I not that I
don't have empathy, but for themost part I especially when the
stakes are high, like I noticedthat I tend to be like let's
just get the job done, becausewe want to get home so that we

(35:35):
can move on to the nextobjective.
And I just really dig thosescenes where she was working on
comms, that console, that, thatconsole, um, there's this
vintage looking console whereshe was transmitting what I say
cryptic messages to, um, somemembers or groups of the the

(35:55):
building rebellion, and that wasreally important to, to, to the
foundations and that laid thegroundwork for, for the
rebellion is just, is hertransmitting all these messages
to make sure that how do I sayit?
To make sure that people aresafe, to make sure that some of

(36:17):
their objectives and goals aremet, and it feels very, it feels
like a very small device andyet again, like laid the
groundwork to, to forming this,this alliances that they have.
So that's, that's what I loveabout.
I was always so mesmerized bythe way that they worked with

(36:39):
bix.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
My heart softens whenever I remember her and all
that she had to go through sobix is um actually the first
person who luthen contacts um onferix right when he's trying to
get an imperial star path unitthat's going to help him
navigate the the world, uh,without being detected.
Um cassian finds out about thatum and her lover at the time

(37:07):
actually betrays them both andthen Bix is tortured for that to
give up information aboutCassian, specifically by members
of the ISB, including Dedra anda scientist who she later gets
her revenge on.

(37:31):
In season two we see herrecovering from all of that,
both living as a refugee on theplanet, whose name I'm
forgetting, both as somebody whois victimized as a refugee in
that precarious state where anequivalent of ice, a
stormtrooper or an imperialcommander tries to rape her and
she resists and saves her ownlife.
But then she has to healthrough that trauma and uses

(37:53):
substances to try to heal, endsup getting revenge as a way to
heal and then decides that Icannot stay in this resistance
in a good way for myself and forthe rebellion in relationship
to Cassian right, Becausethere's too much emotional
attachment and it's preventinghim from doing the thing that he

(38:15):
needs to do and I don't feelsafe and or valued in this
relationship moving forward.
I don't know if you wouldcharacterize any of that
differently, but what parts ofthat did you relate to Gosh?

Speaker 2 (38:27):
I think and this is not just Bix, but this is also
Cassian, and maybe especiallyCassian where our energy will
dampen in movement, work, like Iknow for myself, like there
will be seasons, and there havebeen seasons where I'm just I
just want to give up.
And I know that I have thiscertain, I guess, like public

(38:51):
persona, where it seems like Iam always on the ground
organizing, but similar to toBix, but very different from
Cassian because his his own,like his own, like I see him
waver a lot.
And I think that that isrelatable and that is very human

(39:12):
, for for a lot of us organizers, activists, human rights
defenders that our commitmentswill waver, especially when
we're talking about survival andwe're talking about trauma.
And I think what I really likeabout this series is just the
reality of what it's like to behuman.

(39:33):
And I think Cassian talked toLuthan about this when Luthan
was checking in on Bix.
And this was when Bix wastaking substances just to cope
after a series of traumaticevents and he visited Bix to
assign, to give her anassignment, but decided not to

(39:53):
because it seemed like she wasunwell and then Cassian wasn't
aware of his visit.
So Cassian was angry andconfronted Luthen and they
started talking about.
What did they start talkingabout?
They just.
This is when I was starting tohear.
This is when we started to hearCassian.

(40:15):
It's not like it's endangered,like it seemed like the
relationship that he had withVix was threatening his
commitment to the rebellion.
And what was stunning in thatconversation was when Cassian
said we are not droids, we arenot machines.
A version of that is that weare not machines and that we're
human.
We're made out of flesh, bloodand feelings and fears and flaws

(40:38):
and all of that.
And he has a point there.
And I think that what'srelatable to Bix and, I suppose,
yes, to Cassian as well is thatjust because we are committed
to this revolution or to theresistance movements that we are
committed, that we say we'recommitted to there, I think it's
wise to expect that we willwaver or that the energy that we

(41:03):
had in the beginning wouldn'tbe the same.
And so what is it like tointuit or discern when we're
starting to feel like our fuelis running out?
And what is it like tooscillate between resting and
resisting, because it'ssomething to expect, rather than
expect that we will beprogressing, we'll have the same

(41:28):
excitement, or again likeenergy or vitality, as we did in
the beginning.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, that is so relatable and I think one the
public perception and like Ithink it bears repeating,
instagram is not reality right.
Like for all of us, for anyonewho engages on social media or
like things that are put outthere, like you're only seeing
the thing that somebody decidedto show you.
But, I also think that appliesto when you show up in

(41:58):
organizing spaces or when I showup in a workshop, or when I
show up on a coaching call,right Like I'm showing you what
I want to show you in thisspecific role in this specific
time, that doesn't tell youanything about my interrupted
sleep overnight and how likesometimes I'm like barely
hanging on and thanks to likeI'm only here, thanks to like a

(42:18):
big, big, big cup of coffee,right, and you know what that
means for us as people inmovement is.
Yeah, take time to rest.
There are other people who cancarry on the work and like.
That's been a hard lesson tointernalize, and I think
something that you and I weretalking about before we hit

(42:41):
record was my internalization oflike you're only as good as
like how much service you are topeople.
Right my internalization of likeyou're only as good as like how
much service you are to people,right, and like where that
comes from is like in some ways,a healthy place.
Like oh yeah, good, be ofservice, but like, not like like
how much of yourself are youwilling to sacrifice?
Right, if you go back to luthen, luthen was ready to sacrifice

(43:02):
it all.
Luthen had no relationshipsoutside of no relationships, no
focus, no time for anythingoutside of I am building
infrastructure to take down theGalactic Empire and that cost
him any kind of human to humanrelationships.
Right, he saw people not asmaybe droids, but saw people as

(43:26):
tools to use, use.
He valued people's lives justas tools to use.
He was.
He was ruthless in making surethat he's preserving um the
safety of the movement over thesafety of individuals.
He killed people who were hisallies to make sure that nothing

(43:46):
could get traced back, to makesure that they would not be
liabilities, and that's not thelevel of sacrifice that I'm
willing to engage in.
Like I'm not that single mindedabout, you know, restorative
justice in general or ourgreater movement towards
collective liberation.
I know like collectiveliberation is not that singular

(44:09):
as like resisting the galacticempire, but like that's not
where I'm at and I feel guiltyabout that sometimes.
But like I also have toacknowledge one that that
approach isn't necessarilyhealthy and that just might not
be my role yeah, that part istough, like with the whole

(44:29):
liability and what doessacrifice mean and what if?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
because it and this is where I get stuck on and the
next post is coming my next blogpost is coming about andor, and
that's one of the themes thatI'm like still musing on is the
theme of sacrifice, like whatmakes sacrifice sacred, because
there are so many versions of itthat I heard, or stories before

(44:53):
where what makes sacrifice isreally choice, but what of the
characters who didn't get tochoose and yet it was kind of
like an enforced sacrifice or anenforced loss.
And I think that what I loveabout Andor is that, at least
from my perspective, is that itdidn't really give me a lot of

(45:15):
direct answers, but morequestions, because I think
things like that like maybe likewhat Luthan does and people
being liability and themdisposing these people because
they were liabilities there aredifferent versions of that in on
the ground work, possibly maybein different scales than

(45:38):
actually like killing people,but there is such a thing as
disposability, culture withinmovement work, and I think that
this show, instead of solving orknowing which direction we go,
it unveils more of what'salready going on, and I think
that what's refreshing for meabout the show is that, okay,

(46:00):
let's actually talk about it, atleast have a conversation about
it, then ignore it, I suppose.
So it was refreshing to mebecause at least it unveiled
something that's potentially and, yeah, very likely happening in
movement work, which isdisposability culture.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah, and I think within that culture, right like
sometimes, like you said, inorganizers, it's just what needs
to.
I can't tend to thisrelationship right now because
this work needs to get done.
Like if you value relationshipsin that way, you would stop and

(46:50):
address that for the long term,for the long-term benefit, and
like I'm not saying like in anygiven moment what is the right,
uh, what is the right or wrongaction?
But the, the valuing of peoplefor the sake of being in
relationship versus valuing ofyour cause, um, is something
that have to contend with, likeloyalty to people versus like

(47:10):
loyalty to your cause andstanding in integrity, when
maybe values misalign, or evenif there's just a
misunderstanding, like are yougoing to stop and tend to this
or not?
It's not a clear answer one wayor the other, and sometimes it
is like a healthy boundary tolike let somebody go or remove
somebody from a space, but thenwhere's, if that's the choice,

(47:35):
where are you going back torestore or not repair?
or not, if possible.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Right, and just because you, just because a
person says no to a relationshipfor now, doesn't mean that that
has to be like the staticresponse every time there can be
.
There's no formula to it, um.
And so maybe at this time youcould set it aside instead of
like severing it and then comingback to it.

(48:02):
Or maybe there needs to be ashift to, to the relationship
itself, that maybe they'redemoted as best friend for now,
but to really embrace thedynamism of relationships and
that again, there's no formulato how we respond to these
circumstances.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
There was one other piece ofyour piece that I wanted to make
sure that we talked about.
Is that like disagreeing withinthese movement spaces?
We see lots of examples of thatwithin the context of the show

(48:49):
like really like trivial andlike come on y'all, what are we
doing?
Disagreements to really coredecisions about resource
allocation?
and who to trust, um, that playssuch a role in organizing
spaces, movement spaces,organizing spaces, movement
spaces and just general humanlife, um, what did you pick up
on?
What did you think wasimportant?
Important for those of us whoare listening to your words and
your voice to think about.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Can you read part of it?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
It's wise to expect that we will be at odds with
others during mobilizations,campaigning and even in
something as everyday ascommunication.
Disagreement is not a failureof solidarity but a sign of
plurality.
There's no singular body of theresistance, no monolith of good
intention.
We are porous,self-contradictory and

(49:36):
ever-shifting, and perhapsthat's not something to fear but
to expect to navigate throughand to even honor.
So here, I think what's wheremy mind was at was, besides what
I see in Andor, which is like alot of bickering, a lot of
folks who are coming in withdifferent levels of experience,

(49:58):
like we see this in Aldani, wesee this in the Gorman Front,
there was, yeah, there's just alot of the different generations
of Yavin.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, exactly, oh my was.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
yeah, there's just a lot of different generations of
Yavin, yeah, exactly, oh my gosh.
Yeah, that one was reallystressful.
One thing that came to mind wasthat it did have to do with
whether a person has been Iguess, like again, like
different degrees of experience,different people who are
seasoned and who are new toresistance work.

(50:29):
And one thing that I did pointout in the piece and I want to
also reiterate here is thatmajority of conflict in the
movement spaces that I've beenin has been because of a lack of
resources and a lack ofinformation, and in this case

(50:49):
would be a lack of experience,because with Gorman this wasn't
like directly said, but I justmade the assumption that, just
because it's a wealthy planet,they didn't have a lot of
experience with fighting fortheir rights because
historically they didn't have to, and so they needed Cassian and
eventually they needed Vel andSinta to assist them.

(51:13):
They were even told not tocarry guns because they really
weren't.
This is something that's verynew to them.
So the root of a lot of theconflict that I noticed in Andor
and I also see in organizingspaces here is because we don't
have a lot of the conflict thatI noticed in Andor and I also
see in organizing spaces here isbecause we don't have a lot of.
It's hard to build and it'shard to fight when our tools are

(51:36):
limited, when our intel islimited, when we are also trying
to be, in some cases,underground or hidden from
surveillance state surveillancewhenever we work together.
And again, it's not a failure,but it's because of just how the
system deliberately is set upfor us to fail and what ends up

(52:01):
happening is that maybe we aremisdirecting our anger to each
other than to the very root ofwhy we're under-resourced in the
first place.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, and I think, without.
One of the things that I oftenthink about in organizing spaces
specifically is nobody has tobe there.
Everybody's a volunteer.
They show up on their of theirown volition for the most part.
Right, sometimes people arelike dragged into spaces, but
for the most part people show upon their own free will with

(52:33):
their varying degrees ofexperience and varying value
sets and varying beliefs aboutthe world and like what should
happen and nothing is holding ustogether, except like we want
to work on that issue um andsometimes that is not enough
because we don't have the mutualunderstanding of why this is
important.
We don't have the mutualagreeance on how we're going to

(52:55):
go about getting there, andjudging somebody's commitment to
working on the issue that we'regoing after might not be
helpful when you might not havean understanding of what's
motivating everybody and whereeverybody's coming from going
forward.
And so when there are thosemoments of conflict due to lack
of information or scarcity ofresources, it is easy to write

(53:20):
people off or lead intodisposability, slowing down, to
have those conversations aboutwhy things are important, why
we're doing this and how we aregoing to navigate differences
and conflict when theyinevitably come up, because
wherever humans are, there isgoing to be conflict is really
important and you know know, inthe framing of restorative

(53:40):
justice specifically, it's likewhat are our community
agreements right and like?
it doesn't always have to belike that explicit thing, but
sometimes it does right, itreally should and let's go back
to them to make sure that theseagreements are still serving us,
to make sure that we're stillon the same page.
In the way that we're workingon this specifically, we're
going to disagree about a lot ofdifferent things, but when

(54:02):
we're working on this in thespace, this is the way that
we're going to communicate, isthe way that we're going to make
decisions.
Um, when there is disagreement,sometimes we're going to go for
consensus.
Sometimes there are people whohave more experience, who just
need to make decisions?
And we're going to trust that,and you know it is sometimes
like just follow orders or dowhat you're told is the thing

(54:24):
that needs to happen, versuslike, hey, let's sit down and
talk about this um becausesometimes we need to act with
expediency and like, withoutthat relational capital, without
that trust built, like it ishard for somebody who is a
volunteer, um, who is of theirown free will, to do something
that they might not fully agreewith.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Capacity building y'all.
It takes a lot of capacitybuilding.
This is where I'm in the workthat I do right now, which is to
be a mental health practitionerfor folks on the ground.
I think it has to be a fulltime thing to help facilitate
and mediate, especially in timesof conflict.
And I would say too and this isimportant for me to say, because

(55:08):
maybe majority of the folks whoare listening are based in the
US there's a tendency to thinkand I don't know if you noticed
this, but there's a tendency tothink that the solution to this
is uniformity or to be on thesame page.
I mean, it can be the case thatwe can be in the same enough
page, but there's a temptation,I suppose, to resort to sameness

(55:31):
or to seek for what's tidy,when really what we're fighting
for, what I'm hoping we'refighting for, is multiplicity
and, again, porousness is tofight for the capacity and the
context to welcome as manyselves and choices and rights as

(55:53):
possible.
And that would probably meanthat some of us won't live
together or be in closeproximity to one another, and I
think me being in anarchipelagic reality, like
having different islands andhaving the ocean in between us
we could come up with a versionof that, but without the ocean.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, that, but you know, you know, without the
ocean, yeah, I think about instar wars, right there is a
singular galactic empire thateveryone is organizing and
fighting like in a militaryframework, against and like.
Our world is not that neat andtidy, right?
We're not trying to blow up thedeath star, we're not trying to
like stop emperor palpatine.
As much as like we can go backto 15-whatever-it-was and say

(56:42):
like, yeah, we should have likegone and killed King Philip of
Spain right in the context ofthe Philippines, but that that's
not the reality that we existin.
There are factors of whitedominance, manifest destiny,
imperialism, colonialism andlike all of those other factors

(57:04):
like are baked into global,global realities.
So, like in the us, like whatdoes that mean to make america
quote unquote great again?
america being being a countrybuilt on the land of First
Nations people and like built bypeople kidnapped from Africa.

(57:27):
Right, like, what about?
That is great at all.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Mm, hmm.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
And so, like there's not just like one reality that
like just, it's not like onenarrative that we're trying to
reclaim, it's all the impacts ofthose choices from hundreds of
years ago that are still harmingpeople um today.
Like, like, how do we attackthem with our limited resources?
Yes, plurality, yes, porousness, but it's not as simple as like

(57:53):
blow up the death star.
There's not really a cohesivevision on the left about the
world that we're trying to, acohesive vision on the left
about the world that we'retrying to build, and I don't
think that the rebel alliancehad that either.
Right they were just like blowup the death star, stop
palpatine, and like thegovernment that they created
after all of that collapsed in30 years and the first order
arose, and that was like episode7, 8, 9 of star wars um and you

(58:17):
know that win is enough for themoment, but for us, on the I'll
use the colloquial left what isit that we're actually building
towards?
Like?
I don't think there's a I'm noteven saying like unified goal,
but a clear enough goal thatpeople are marching towards,

(58:38):
Except like, not whatever'sgoing on right now, not white
supremacy, not racism, notcapitalism, not imperialism, not
land theft, not genocide.
Right, we don't have a clearvision of what it is.
We're continuing to organizefor, as we're actively
participating and contributingand in some ways benefiting from

(58:59):
, especially in the us um all ofthe systems of oppression so
much to navigate throughcomplicity and targeting.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Which lane am I?
It would be really nice if ouronly north star were to blow up
the death star.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
That would be such a nice trajectory right and like
you would think within thecontext of the the galaxy in
star wars, how many peopleactually know about the death
star right?
not that many not untilsomething happened really tragic
happened yeah, yeah, yeah gosh,I think, like my question to

(59:38):
you, like my response, thatresponse was an attempt to get
you to like to hear thoughtsabout, yes, porousness, yes,
plurality, but towards whatexist and like, in some ways I
do lean towards anarchy, right.

(01:00:00):
But when we are faced with suchan oppressive regime and such
oppressive forces that aretrying to enforce, um,
uniformity and like get rid ofeverything else like assimilate
or die, submit or die um.
What is it that we're buildingtowards?

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
right.
The first thing that actuallycame to mind was like to
consider the eco system, andthis might sound like such a
corny corny response, but Ithink about the activist
ecosystem.
I don't know what end yet.
Like what we're aiming for.
Collective liberation is vague.
To welcome as many choices andpreferences is quite vague,

(01:00:46):
because who knows what's goingto be at odds.
But if we're going to lean tonature as the mentor for this,
for our direction, then so be it.
Like what is it like to?
Yeah, to lean to nature, andmaybe nature will teach us.
Because I feel like we're sofar from our essence because of

(01:01:07):
capitalism, because of racismand systemic oppression, that
there's an element of forgettingwho we are and maybe what we're
meant for.
And so I feel like, yeah, whatis it like to have?
And maybe we could look at itas an activist ecosystem.
Maybe in this ecosystem there's, instead of like species.

(01:01:29):
We've got organizations thatlean toward climate action.
Others would be social justiceand the arts, others would be
how to clear medical debt.
We need as many people in thesemany different organizations as
possible, and we also.

(01:01:50):
This is going to be a littlecontroversial, but I love that
we have activists.
But I also think and Andortaught me this maybe we don't
need any more activists.
Maybe we need more mechanics,more teachers, more babysitters,
more people who would cook forfolks in the front lines.
We need more engineers andstrategists and teachers to be

(01:02:16):
able, in this ecosystem, to beable to get us where we want to
be.
I don't know where we're headedto, but it would be nice to
just be like a frog on a pondright now.
But yeah, to consider theecosystem, I know that it sounds

(01:02:36):
corny, but at this point it's ahelpful teacher.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah, no, I really love that Corny or not, right?
Cliches are cliches for areason right, and I think
remembering our relationship tothe world around us, not just
our human relatives, is reallyimportant.
What does that look like foryou?

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Symbiosis, like with capacity building.
I think about the Weddell seal,and I learned this from Dr
Alexis Pauline Gumbs in the bookUndrowned.
She talks about how she's what'scalled like a marine mammal
apprentice and that marinemammals are her teachers and the

(01:03:24):
huero seal doesn't know, likethe baby huero seal doesn't know
their capacity to breathe or tohold their breath underwater,
until mama seal drags them downand really stretches their lung
capacity and if not for toughlove and if not for some

(01:03:44):
struggle and trust in one's body, then that's when baby
Guerocele will know theircapacity and that they have what
it takes to stay underwater foran X amount of time.
So stuff like that.

(01:04:06):
Like I think about the riverdolphin who doesn't see, like
their vision isn't as great inthe river because of how strong
the streams can be compared tolike the ocean river, because of
how strong the streams can becompared to like the ocean.
And what they taught to me isthat what are other ways of
seeing, like, if I can't counton my vision, like the
traditional way of seeing, whatare other ways of seeing which

(01:04:29):
can be through intuition,through touch, by what I hear?
What is it like to listen inmultidimensional ways and that
can be incorporated inorganizing as well?
I think that that's what I wastalking about about Luthan
earlier.
Like what are ways of listening?

(01:04:50):
What are we not hearing andwhat are we actually hearing?
What is false information andwhat isn't?
How do we know that?
There's a a mole in our group,that kind of question?
Um, even Deidre, like, eventhough she can drive me nuts,
she's actually pretty brilliantbecause she does something

(01:05:12):
that's similar to Luther and sheknew how to, uh, step into the
shoes of her opponent becauseshe knew how to listen, um, so
so that's.
Those are kind of like mymarine mammal mentors and I
think it's really like, at leastfor me, when the struggle, when
it gets really tough and on theground work.

(01:05:34):
There's also something aboutjust remembering the earth, um,
and I know that I'm verycomplicit in damaging the earth
at the same time, but there'salso something about remembering
the water and the beyond humankin.
That gives comfort and gives me, like, a deeper breath, a

(01:05:55):
deeper breath, and maybe that'senough for the day as well, to
keep saying yes to keep sayingyes to this work, yeah, yeah,
for sure, and, and sometimesthat's just enough to be able to
say yes tomorrow or like yes,like right now, yeah, and I

(01:06:26):
think vision is good, long-termvision is good, and sometimes
the next step is the mostimportant thing in any given
moment.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Um, what I'm conscious of is it's one in the
morning, where you are, andfolks, this is the brilliance
that's pouring out of games atone in the morning.
Imagine, um, what else couldpour out of games in other times
where they're not so exhausted.
Thank you for accommodating ofthis, uh, the time difference

(01:06:53):
and my capacity as a parent ofyoung kids i'm'm curious, with
that in mind, what you want toleave people with today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Watch Andor, but please watch it in different
ways than subscribing to Disney+.
And if you'd like to reach outto me and tell me your thoughts,
I welcome them.
I love having conversationsabout this and I loved having
conversations with you, david,about this.
I hope that we I want to echowhat Nimick said that he didn't

(01:07:31):
say this precisely, but he saidsomething along the lines of
authoritarian, imperial power isbrittle, and the way that I
view that is that we often thinkabout hierarchy or power as
like a triangle, like we are.
Some of us are at the bottom,some of us are in the middle of

(01:07:53):
that triangle.
But what if we think aboutpower and Dan Hunter talks about
this like what if we flip itand think about power instead of
like a triangle, we think aboutan upside down triangle where
the foundation is delicate.
The only reason why those inpower is like held together is

(01:08:16):
because there's like these,these pillars of power that hold
them up.
And can we imagine power likethat?
What is it like to to toppleand to tip that triangle?
So, in times of hopelessness,think about that upside down
triangle and I hope you can alsoaccess natural beauty and

(01:08:39):
beyond human kin as our mentors,as we continue to say yes.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Gonna drop the mic on that.
Links to connect with Gabe'sare in the description of
wherever you're reading this.
Are there any other ways peoplecan support you in the ways
that you want to be supported?

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Usually, I would put up some fundraisers to sustain
our psychosocial supportnetworks.
In the global south.
A lot of human rights defenders, organizers and climate
activists need psychosocialsupport, and some of us are
providing that for free, andthese fundraisers are helpful to

(01:09:19):
sustain our work in continuingto provide mental health support
to those who are on the ground.
So stay tuned.
I usually announce them on mysocial media, so I hope you
could support us there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Or also just Venmo games.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Or that too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, your
writing and your openness toconnection.
This isn't the lastconversation that you and I are
going to have.
Whether or not the broadcastfor everyone else remains to be
seen, but to those listening,thank you so much for being here
for this episode of the EmpireDay podcast.
Until next time, take care andbe safe and build the world that

(01:09:59):
we want to see.

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