October 27, 2025 • 54 mins
We sit with poet and filmmaker Koraly Dimitriades to unpack gatekeeping, creative autonomy, and how to build a writing life that answers to the work, not the establishment. From founding a press to touring internationally, we share tactics, hard truths, and why protecting your voice matters.
• founding an indie press to keep creative control
• questioning “literary merit” through a colonial lens
• using zines, bookshops and data to secure distribution
• choosing offset vs print on demand for touring
• negotiating rights and asking about real marketing budgets
• moving from mainstream op-eds to social media for voice
• speaking truth, blacklisting and mental health boundaries
• targeting prizes and festivals that suit your style
• nontraditional sales channels and grassroots marketing
• redefining success and separating money from art
• community, nuance and sustaining a long career
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Welcome to Amra’s Armchair Anecdotes! I’m Amra Pajalić—writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair, and let’s dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned—sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours.
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amra Pajalic (00:00):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pailich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how-to guidesat amrage.com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I'm interviewing CoralieDimitriades.
She's a Cypriot Australianpoet, filmmaker, freelance
writer, and founder of Outsidethe Box Press.
(00:45):
She's actually the one who gaveme the idea to start my own
imprint.
Yes, you're full of good ideas.
Her breakout collection, Loveand Fuck Poems, became a
bestseller.
So we've got it there.
Translated into Greek, waslonglisted for the UK Poetry
Book Awards.
And in 2025, she won Best Bookof Narrative Poetry at the
(01:06):
Legacy Book Awards.
She followed it with Just GiveMe the Pills and She's Not
Normal, cementing her reputationas one of Australia's boldest
poetic voices.
Coralie's short storycollection, The Mother Must Die,
was published by Puncher andWatman in 2024.
And her opinion writing, ofwhich there are over 160 pieces,
(01:29):
have appeared in The Guardian,The Age, Al Jazeera, The
Washington Post, and more.
She's also a filmmaker, and herpoetry films have screened on
SBS On Demand at the SydneyOpera House, International
Festivals, have earned multipleawards, including the Monologues
and Poetry International FilmFestival at the USA.
(01:50):
She's a fearless creative.
She moves between the page andthe stage and screen, uses her
art at small business platformto challenge taboos, celebrate
identity, and inspire women tospeak the truth.
Thank you so much for coming onmy podcast.
Thanks for having me.
So you are someone that I havebeen incredibly inspired by, I
(02:14):
just have to tell you.
Wow.
Because you have really forgedyour own path.
You have really created yourown artistic journey and just
pursued what your art is andjust let it speak for itself.
So could you take us back alittle bit and tell us about
your, you know, the beginningfor you?
Koraly Dimitriadis (02:34):
Yeah, um, well, I always wanted to be an
artist, but I wasn't reallyallowed to pursue it because I
had very kind of strict migrantparents.
But um, when I got older andafter I had my daughter, I just
something inside me snapped andI just decided to pursue my
dream.
(02:55):
And it came with poetry.
Um, the the poetry became kindof like the liberation, but I
was also writing a novel in umsecret before that that um is
still not published, but will bepublished one day, I'm sure.
And um I just noticed when Icame onto the art scene that um
(03:17):
while I was feeling veryrepressed by my culture and I
saw art as or the art sector asmy liberation, I s I very
quickly became aware that I wastrying to be that that powers
were trying to silence me, werenot being appreciative of my of
the way I was writing, we'rewere frowning at the way I was
(03:40):
writing, and that it wasn't likeproper literary standards.
And um, and so I when I wantedto publish Love and F poems, I
um I didn't even send it topublishers.
I just did it on my own as azine, and then it started
selling very well, and then Iturned it into a book and I
started outside the box press.
(04:02):
And um yeah, just I think Ifluctuated through my whole
career of trying to appease theestablishment and and wasted a
lot of time trying to do that,you know, waiting years and
years for publishers to get backto me about my my poetry books
and then getting rejected, andthen just realizing that my
(04:25):
books weren't getting publishedat the time that I wanted them
to be published.
So uh I've made a decision inthe last few years to only
publish my poetry through my ownpress and not to send it to
publishers.
But with my other books likefiction, I'm still pursuing
those avenues and I still workwith industry, but because I
(04:46):
have my own press with its owndistribution in a way I'm not
answerable to industry because Ialways have that to fall back
on.
Even for my fiction, if at theend of the day I can't find a
publisher, I will do it throughmy press.
And so having that power tofall back on, my own press, um,
has made me um, you know, not asscared to say what I want to
(05:13):
say and and do what I want todo.
However, having said that, itdoes still come as a price when
you at a price when you saythings that the establishment
don't like.
Amra Pajalic (05:24):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think many people realise,
um, but for those of us whohave been on the publishing
scene, it is quite a smallscene.
Everyone kind of knows eachother, you get known uh around
by people, and you know, thereis certain expectations in terms
of writing and publishing andperception and presenting
(05:47):
yourself.
And um, you know, like I thinkthat when we come from a
multicultural background, ourthemes and the things that we
write about are just they normalto us.
This is what we write about,these are the people that we
know, and then there's thisperception of you know, it's
gritty writing, it's um thesethings, and so sometimes that
(06:09):
can be the difficult thing.
Koraly Dimitriadis (06:11):
Yeah, and and I I would say because I I do
do a lot of touring um thanksto funding from the Syria
government, and I spend a lot oftime in Europe and Cyprus, and
the more time I spend there,like for example, recently I
went to a poetry event inCyprus, and all the poets that
were performing had a similarstyle or rawness to their
(06:33):
poetry.
And as I was sitting there, Iwas thinking, it's the colonial
powers here that say that ourwriting doesn't meet literary
merit because their perceptionof literary merit is a colonial
perception.
And actually, my writing stemsfrom my ancestry because the
poets that I'm around in Cyprusare writing like me.
(06:55):
And so, you know, when thatwhen you submit to prizes and
publishers and all that, and andyou see this term in Australia,
I'm talking now, because inAustralia our sector is very
removed from the rest of theworld.
In Europe, it's a completelydifferent perception.
So when you're here and you seethat term, oh, we only accept
(07:17):
manuscripts of the highestliterary merit, you go, no, what
you're saying to me is youaccept manuscripts through a
colonial lens of writing, andyou're not going to publish me
because I don't sound like that.
And I'm not gonna go touniversity and be taught to
write like that because that'swhat they do.
They teach you this is theproper way to write, which is a
(07:38):
colonial way to write.
And I'm not saying that othercultures don't get published,
they do, but it's a verytokenistic view.
Oh, we've got to have our fromthis culture and that culture,
and you know, well, the Greekshave had their days, so you
know, we don't have to choosesomeone from that culture.
And so that's how they viewtheir literary merit.
It's very colonial andtokenistic.
Amra Pajalic (07:57):
And that's because, you know, let's be
honest here, who are the peoplewho are working in the
publishing industry?
What background?
You know, there's not enough umdiversity there because it is
not accessible for people, youknow, these days for anyone to
get a job as an editor, um,which is becoming harder and
more thankless because there isconstriction in the industry.
(08:18):
There's the expectation ofdoing unpaid internships.
Who can afford to do that?
You and me wouldn't have beenable to afford to do that.
We were out there um, you know,very early on in our lives,
working, having to paymortgages.
Um, and so it's very limitingabout who can access those
opportunities and who has uh theability to kind of keep pushing
(08:40):
through some of those burdens.
Koraly Dimitriadis (08:44):
And and not just that as well, but the the
people that they choose to bethese editors and that, they're
people that are conductingthemselves in a way that the
establishment likes.
You know, they're not going toput me, you know, as an as an
editor, for example, of anestablished literary journal
(09:04):
because like I don't conductmyself or I the way a good
literary citizen in Australiashould conduct themselves.
So it's it's also that in thatway as well, these positions of
of power, you know, who who arethey, who are they putting
there?
Amra Pajalic (09:22):
Yeah, you know, and there's also just the
reality of, because I have a lotof friends who are also of you
know, Anglo-Celtic backgroundwho are writing crime fiction
novels, and just the way thatthe industry, even then, like
some of them are best-sellingauthors, and they don't hear
from the editors, they don't gettold about things that are
going on just because of thefact that publishing houses are
(09:45):
underfunded, they've got so manybooks coming through.
Um, and then there are certainpeople who become, you know,
bestsellers and develop thoselonger, deep relationships.
And then uh, yeah, there'sthere's just the reality on the
ground of these days, thepublishing industry.
Koraly Dimitriadis (10:04):
Yeah, and I just want to add to what I was
saying because um, yes, likemaybe when I started my career
15 years ago, the industry wasmore better funded and um there
were more opportunities.
Now we're just seeing ashrinking of the arts as a whole
around the world.
We're getting more censorshipin the arts as well than there
(10:25):
ever has been before.
Um, and because, you know, if Ilook at America, for example,
we get a lot of you know, theways that we do things in
Australia, we get a lot of thatfrom America.
So we're getting a culminationof this, what we were talking
about before and the way theindustry works.
Plus, on top of that, now therealities of being in the arts,
(10:49):
underfunded, censored.
It's, you know, I really dofeel for the newer generation
coming through in this space.
And, you know, I mentor a lotof writers, younger writers as
well.
And I have to, I don't want tobe one of those teachers that
says that doesn't say what therealities are.
I have to say them what therealities are.
I don't want to waste people'stime.
(11:10):
I wasted a lot of my timetrying to figure all this stuff
out, you know.
So um, yeah, I mean, I'm notsaying don't go into the arts if
that's what you want to do, butbeing aware of the realities,
but there's also a lot ofopportunity for for you if you
know you think outside the box.
As an artist should.
Amra Pajalic (11:30):
And that's that's the thing.
We have both.
Like I had a beautifulapprenticeship to the publishing
industry where my first book, Idid not realize how hard it was
because I submitted my firstbook to a prize, um, the Twin
Premier's Prize for anunpublished manuscript.
I got shortlisted.
Um, I got uh publishers givingme their business cards at the
(11:54):
ceremony because they used to dothese beautiful, amazing
ceremonies and announcements andstuff.
Um I got top agent in a CurtisBrown.
I had my agent submit it tofive publishers.
I had two offers.
Wow.
Um got published, had beautifulreviews, global financial
(12:14):
crisis happened, and splat went.
Koraly Dimitriadis (12:18):
What year was that?
2009.
Yeah, so yeah, think aboutthat, what what the situation
is.
Amra Pajalic (12:24):
That was so long ago now.
And then it kind of just gotharder and harder, and I still
had um still got traditionallypublished, but it just got to a
point where, like you, um, allthis time spent waiting and
giving other people ourintellectual property, not
(12:45):
having control, uh facingconstraints, uh, it became, and
also I was getting rights backto books that I had had
published.
Um, and I was like, well, mayas well.
Um and now I am personally ofthe view, and I think you agree
with me, that being anindependently published authors
(13:06):
is the only way to get a viableincome as an artist these days,
because even if you aretraditionally published, you get
very small advances, and onlydo you earn royalties if you've
paid back those advances.
Um, I wanted to pick upsomething that you were talking
about earlier, which is that youhad your own distribution for
(13:28):
your books.
And that's the thing, when youare an Indie author, you have to
take on board all of themarketing, all of the
distribution, all of thebusiness side of it.
So could you talk us through umhow this evolved and where
where it's at and some lessons?
Koraly Dimitriadis (13:42):
Um, so I have worked with publicists, so
I've hired publicistsoccasionally, they are
expensive.
I was lucky early in my careerI had um some publicers that
wanted to work with me andbelieved in what I was doing and
did it at like a cheaper rate.
I don't think these days that'spossible with the high cost of
living.
But the way that I got adistributor, so I've got a
(14:07):
national distributor forAustralia, New Zealand
Woodslang, was that um, youknow, my poetry book, Love and F
Poems, I just put it in um likeone or two bookshops.
And uh especially with thebookshop Colliester books on
Brunswick Street, it doesn'texist anymore.
But they were just selling alot of the books.
(14:29):
And so I then went to otherbookshops and said, Oh, look,
this bookshop is selling out ofmy books.
Can you order my books?
And then they just kind ofbecome jealous of each other,
like, oh, that bookshop's gotit.
Well, maybe I should get it.
And then, you know, it um itjust started like a chain
reaction of and you know, have ahuge spreadsheet to keep a
(14:49):
track of all my books and whohad my books and this and that.
And then I was able to takethat data to um distributors,
and there are only, I think,like 10 distributors in
Australia.
And I tried them all, and theyall said no, except for
Woodslang, who was like, Oh, wedon't even do poetry, but
there's something about you,we'll give it a go.
And you know, you only need oneperson sometimes to say yes,
(15:10):
and always remember that that'sone of the things I teach my
students all the time.
You only need one person to sayyes.
And um, yeah, they've beendistributing my books for like
over 10 years now.
They're very supportive of mywork, and um, they're also
started up a pub a publishingpress as well.
(15:30):
So um, you know, they've gonefrom distributor and publisher
to publisher as well.
Um, so yeah, it's um they'rethey're not like they're more of
an academic distributor than aliterary distributor, like then
literary distributors.
Well, I'm not literary.
How can love and f columns beliterary?
Um, you know, so I was with uman academic, you know,
(15:56):
distributor and and it workedout.
Amra Pajalic (15:58):
And also one of the things that you did was you
actually um said there's twoways that we can do printing and
publishing as independentauthors.
We can do the on-demand throughIngram Spark, which means a
higher cost per book.
Yes.
Or you can do offset printingwhere you print a few thousand
copies and the unit um price foreach one is much cheaper.
(16:20):
And so that's what you did withthe distributor.
So you were able to.
Do you still do that or what'sthe process now?
Koraly Dimitriadis (16:27):
Um now that print on demand is actually
relatively um on par with umoffset actually.
So um Eevee's a bit cheaper togo offset, and I um have done
multiple print runs.
I I could do um with the withthe print on with the offset I
(16:49):
was doing, I could do 600copies.
Um, and you know, I've donequite a few um print runs that
way, but in the last few years,um, print on demand has just
worked better for me because Itour a lot.
So what that means is if if I'min Cyprus, I can print my books
in in Europe and get themshipped to me rather than do a
(17:12):
print run of say 600, have themdelivered to Australia and then
have to take them overseas.
It just doesn't suit me anymorenow with all the traveling I
have to do.
I mean, if even if like sayI've got a gig in Germany, which
I did, I I just I just printedbooks and sent them right to the
gig, you know, so that reducesmy costs of um having to, you
(17:33):
know, post yeah, because books,yeah, local printing, local
postage.
Amra Pajalic (17:38):
Yeah.
And we know that sendinganything from Australia is so
expensive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so I was wondering, um, youknow, maybe if you wouldn't
mind sharing uh a memory of whenspeaking your truth got you in
trouble, but you knew you had tostand by it.
(17:59):
Um, but you know, if you're notokay with that, that's okay.
Koraly Dimitriadis (18:03):
Um, look, I mean, you know, it's speaking my
truth has been um a journey inand of itself because there have
been times where I've spoken mytruth and I've gotten
blacklisted, and um, you know,and and the the first time I got
really blacklisted, uh, youknow, I it really affected my
(18:24):
mental health.
Um, and I, you know, it itstopped me from writing what I
wanted to write for a reallylong time.
And I've got a lot of um poetrythat I just never showed
anyone, you know, that that I II feel will come up in my in my
next poetry collection, which isabout um, it's called Um That's
(18:45):
What They Do, and it's about umemotional abuse, but all the
different ways a person canexperience emotional abuse, one
of which is through theirworkplace.
And um, you know, but after Iwent through that experience, I
just know I I came to this pointwhere I was like, Coralie,
either, you know, give up or oror do what you want to do.
(19:07):
Because this in-between spacewas held.
It was like, you know, kind ofwriting, but not writing what I
want to write and trying toappease with being scared.
And so I just I just made adecision that I'm just gonna go
for it because I had I hadalready had that scar, that
Exxon might on me.
(19:28):
So, you know, um, and now whenI publish things that um I know
are controversial, I'm not I'mnot as scared.
And if I do publish somethingthat I think I maybe I shouldn't
have said that I might take itdown and then reflect on it and
then think, oh, you know, Idon't want to say that because I
(19:49):
can't be bothered with theblack backlash of it, you know,
because at the end of the day, Ihave I'm a human and I have to
worry about my own my own mentalhealth.
So when people look at me andthink, oh, she's such a fearless
writer, I actually don't say alot.
And it's not because I don't, Idon't want to say it and I
won't ever say it.
It just means right at thatpoint I don't feel comfortable
(20:12):
saying it, but it might come upin a book in a year or two or
three.
And that's what I teach mystudents.
It's sometimes it's not theright time to say what you want
to say, but that doesn't meanyou never have to say it.
Amra Pajalic (20:24):
And that's the joy of the artist artistic life.
We just keep collecting things,collect, you know, collecting
um and writing and havingthings, and then as you said,
it's eventually like, well, thisis going to be the body of the
work.
Yes.
This is going to be the themethat it sort of evolves under
and and you know, developsunder.
Um, I think we've spoken beforealso, you know, in terms of
(20:45):
your freelance writing, like,you know, you've got over uh 160
pieces published, but youactually were getting published
overseas more than you weregetting published in Australia.
And that's how you sort ofbuild up your body of work.
Koraly Dimitriadis (20:59):
Yeah, I I think no, I was I was published
in Australia more, but I thinkwhen I started getting those um
runs on the board overseas, thathelped me get more stuff
published in Australia becausein Australia there's this, it's
really bad, but there's this theindustry operates in this way
of like, oh, well, she's gettingruns on the board overseas, so
(21:20):
we better publish her here.
But if I didn't have those runson the board, then maybe I
wouldn't have got thoseopportunities here.
So there's there's that toconsider as well.
With and you know, it's areality of the Australian
publishing industry or mediaindustry, because I think we're
so far removed from the rest ofthe world that if someone
somehow makes a splash overseas,then they must, you know, have
(21:44):
must be good.
So yeah.
Um, but these days actually Idon't really publish um opinion,
and that's because the mediahas changed so much in the last
few years.
The last few times I've beenpublished by mainstream media, I
just haven't been happy withthe result because they edit me,
they don't, they they cutthings without even asking me,
(22:08):
you know, and then I end up withthis article that isn't a
reflection of what I wanted tosay.
And so now I've moved over tosocial media, mainly TikTok and
Instagram, mostly TikTok, tojust make videos about my views
because then I can just say whatI want to say.
And yes, I'm not getting paid,you know, but I'm also
increasing my platform, whichmeans I'm selling books as well.
(22:31):
Um, and it's not as much moneyas getting published in in the
media, but for me, I don't care.
I would rather say make moneyteaching and saying what I want
to say, and um and and thatmakes me happy.
I don't, I don't, I I spent somany years of my life, you know,
in a very repressive kind ofculture, you know, married at 22
(22:53):
and you know, not feeling ableto say what I want to say.
And so as an adult now, I justthink, well, life is too short.
And if I'm gonna be an artist,I want to do it my way and I
want to say what I want to say.
Amra Pajalic (23:04):
Yeah, like what you're talking about, I've I'm
very pragmatic.
When I get things published andthey edit, I just accept all.
I don't care.
I'm like paycheck.
Yeah, you know, and so it'slike you really have to decide
where is your energy, which is,you know, is it about like what
you're wanting to say and thefact that once you're being paid
(23:25):
for, there is that compromisethat comes into it.
There is that um sensoristicthat comes into it, the lens
that it sort of needs to fit.
Um, or and you know, like youI'm slowly sort of moving away
from wanting that too, um, whereit's like it's it's about that
freedom and about, yeah, likenot where's the opportunities?
(23:49):
Where do you want to put theenergy?
Koraly Dimitriadis (23:51):
And also I found it demoralizing because I
found that a lot of the timesthe editors make me feel like
there's something wrong with me,like I'm somehow not writing
properly because I'm notpitching ideas or saying things
the way they want me to say it.
But really, if you look at itmore closely, the media has
(24:12):
been, you know, compromised inthe last at least five years.
I remember when I first startedwriting opinion, I was getting
like three articles published aweek, and I was just saying
whatever I wanted to say.
You know, now they make youfeel like, oh, there's something
wrong with your writing.
That's why you're not gettingpublished.
No, it's not that.
And for a while I thought itwas that, and then I was like,
(24:34):
no, hang on a minute.
Like the media is socompromised.
And I've been saying it foryears and years and years, and
now, now we're seeing it clearlyhow how it's compromised.
We can see it clearly, youknow.
Amra Pajalic (24:47):
So that clash and the censorship that's happening.
And you know, if we look at theBendigo Writers Festival and
all of the authors, um, I'm soproud of them, like who were
given these uh agreements thatthey were supposed to sign about
what they would say and whatthey would talk about on stage
and refused because enough'senough.
Yeah.
(25:07):
You know, and uh there'sfinally that acknowledgement.
Um, but even with withpublishing, I agree with you
because I I was experiencing thesame thing where I would be
submitting books that I reallybelieved in and that I'd spent
time on and it just wasn'tgetting anywhere.
And so in the first few yearswould be like, it's me.
(25:28):
These books aren't wood, um,they're not worth it.
And then in in some instances,you know, things would would get
published elsewhere or extractswould get published elsewhere.
And I'm like, well, is itreally not good?
Or is it just not fitting, youknow, what what what perception
is or what's popular or whatthey think that's it's selling
(25:50):
at the time.
And uh now I've gotten to thepoint where I don't even submit
anymore to the traditionalpublishing scene.
Um, because you know what wewere talking about earlier, in
terms of the contracts that theyask you to sign, you're giving
away world rights.
Um even though they might notbe exploiting your world rights.
(26:11):
They will only be publishing itin Australia and maybe New
Zealand.
And so you're giving up rightsthat then you can't exploit.
Um, and it's like, you know, ifwe publish it on demand, we
will get a few sales overseas,you know, depending on our
marketing efforts, but it will.
There will be some peoplebuying it overseas.
(26:32):
And that is so amazing when yousee it on your Ingram Spark
dashboard where it's like, oh,someone in France bought a copy
of my book.
Oh my gosh, someone in Germanydid, you know, like these things
are just so exciting and soheartening.
Yeah.
Um, and so you know, it's it'sagain that compromise of um, do
you want someone who does all ofthe work for you, all of that
(26:54):
social marketing and production?
Uh, and therefore you give upyour, you know, um, autonomy and
uh opportunities made they haveto sort of do all of that or
the other side of it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (27:08):
So yeah, I mean, look, these days you don't
have to sign world rights, butusually it's expected with um
Puncher and Watman, they have myAustralian New Zealand rights
and I and outside the Brox Presshas the European rights.
Wonderful.
You know, I mean, yeah, thatwasn't something that they they
wanted at the start, but that'ssomething that that's what's
it's resulted in because it itjust wasn't feasible if I'm
(27:32):
touring so much to have to getbooks from Puncher and Watman
shipped from Australia to Europewhen I can just print them in
Europe, like I said before.
Um, but also that you know, I Iwould I would caution um you
know new writers as well to whenthey they are gonna sign with a
publisher, really ask what kindof marketing budget are they
(27:53):
gonna actually um you know putput forward for your book?
Because, you know, with Puncherand Wottman, for example, there
really wasn't, you know, abudget, you know, and um, but
with bigger publishers, therethere is a budget, you know.
So there's also all that toweigh up.
I mean, I wanted to bepublished with a publisher
because that's something Iwanted to experience.
I'd never done it before.
(28:14):
So um, you know, and and it'sturned out okay.
You know, there's been somepros and some cons, but I don't
regret it.
So um, you know, but um, yeah,definitely be looking at the the
marketing because a lot ofpublishers these days, they
don't even have properdistribution, even.
They won't even get your bookin a bookshop.
So if you're looking at apublisher, you need to go, okay,
(28:36):
are there books at my localbookshop?
You know, and and what kind ofdistribution do they have?
What kind of marketing do theyhave?
But then when you ask thosequestions, when you get to the
point of getting published, it'salmost seen as like
disrespectful, like this.
How dare you ask for that orthis?
You know, you should bethankful which is you from a
(28:57):
slush pile of 200 books and thisand that.
And it shouldn't be that way,you know.
Amra Pajalic (29:02):
It should be near it as a partnership, yeah.
But uh, because I had thatexperience too when I tried to
negotiate.
Yeah.
Um and uh, you know, uh we'rewe're cut out so much in one way
where it's like, well, itshould be a partnership, yeah.
Because at the end of the day,everything that we're doing,
it's about promoting, it's aboutcreating opportunities.
Um, but it's almost like uhyeah, you've just got spotlight
(29:25):
for six weeks, moving on, um,and whatever they control.
Equal guy, I remember I'm notgonna say the author's name, but
they got published with atraditional publisher.
Koraly Dimitriadis (29:35):
A big one, like a big one, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (29:37):
Yeah, uh one of the five.
And they were doing promotionand all of this.
And then the um publisher gottheir nose put bent out of joint
about their promotion effortsand what they were doing.
And they were like, This authoris um out of bounds in their
promotion.
Koraly Dimitriadis (29:56):
No, wait, I've never heard of that before.
Amra Pajalic (29:58):
It was it was really
Koraly Dimitriadis (30:00):
Really um so they had to do the promotion
like how the publisher wantedthem to do it.
Amra Pajalic (30:05):
You know, there was something about the
publisher not being happy, aboutwhat they were doing and the
ways that they were promoting.
And so it does, it does limit II didn't know that they
definitely wouldn't be happybefore.
I if I could do an episode oneday of all of the dark stories I
know.
Oh, me too.
The little little dark nooksand and you know, because there
(30:26):
is a lot that goes on.
I mean, I think it's in everyindustry, like even as a
teacher, yeah, you know, there'sthere's the dark side of it all
um that you kind of just lookaway from because you're like,
we can't we can't look there.
Yeah.
Um, but can you talk about someof the um promotion and
marketing uh that you've beendoing and like what what things
have you found the mostaccessible?
(30:47):
Because even recently you'vebeen submitting to book prizes
um and you won book prizes,which which has been, you know,
creating more opportunities foryou.
Koraly Dimitriadis (30:56):
Yeah, I mean, with book prizes, um it's
a bit of a hit and miss.
Like I don't really submit thatmuch to prizes unless I think
there's a chance.
Like I always look at what kindof books get chosen.
And if it's a very literarykind of list and nothing really
edgy, I don't even submit.
(31:18):
Or if the judges are veryliterary, you know, I don't
submit.
So um, but with American BookFests, which is where I've had
some luck, and then UK PoetryBook Awards, I could see that
they were, you know, choosingpeople that were a bit left of
center, so that's why I submitit there.
Um, I've I found like uh socialmedia very helpful.
(31:39):
Like I said before, sometimes Iwork with publicists, but also
just um touring, you know, andleaving Australia, which I know
it's not easy for a lot ofpeople to do, but I've been
lucky because I'm a dualcitizen.
I get funding from the Cypriotgovernment to do a lot of my
touring.
Like they've funded me to go toNew Zealand, to America, around
Europe, to Cyprus.
(32:00):
So um, and that's been thatsupport has been absolutely
pivotal to my success because ofthat thing I told you about
before about how the Australianestablishment views you more
highly if you're kicking goalsoverseas.
And so, you know, um the waythat that Cyprus funding um is
(32:26):
awarded is is a bit more lax, Iwould say, and a bit more like
not as bureaucratic.
Like if you look at the fundingum guidelines here for you know
Creative Australia and umCreative Victoria, you know, for
someone that doesn't have thatbureaucratic kind of head, it's
(32:46):
so it's almost impossible to getfunding.
Those regulations are hard.
Amra Pajalic (32:52):
Yeah, it's like you have to start very early on
preparing the information,collecting, justifying, writing,
and then the word count.
Koraly Dimitriadis (33:02):
Yeah, it it's it's it's just very
inaccessible.
And also the way that it's umthe funding is treason, I don't
I don't think is is very fair,like that it's peer-based,
because then if the the pepeople on the board you know
don't like you, then you're notgonna get the funding.
Whereas in in Cyprus, that it'snot just peer-based, there's
(33:23):
actually people from the officethat are sitting there as well.
And um, yeah, I just I've hadmore luck.
I've had more luck overseas, soI've just been able to just use
that to my advantage to reallylift my profile um and just you
know perform at events aroundEurope and things like that.
And I was recently in Berlin,I'd never performed in Berlin
(33:46):
before, and I got such a likewarm reception, just talking
about all this stuff that we'retalking about right now.
They were just so fascinatedbecause there's this perception
in Europe that Australia is thislike like very like you know,
liberated, you know, artistic,you know, space, you know, and
like this it's just not like no,it's more conservative than it
(34:09):
is here, you know.
And um, I remember one day Isaid I said to someone in
Cyprus, oh, I'm gonna write apoem about it was something in
the media.
I'm gonna write a poem aboutthis and put it out there.
What do you think?
And then they were like, Whyare you even asking me this
question?
Isn't it your job to do that?
And I said, No, but if I saidsomething like that in
(34:32):
Australia, I would get, youknow, blacklisted or whatever.
And they're like, that's soweird.
Why would you get blacklisted?
Like, they don't evenunderstand when you talk about
this stuff.
They don't get it.
Um, so yeah, just to answeryour question, yeah, uh, it's
it's I I the way that I promotemy work is very um creatively
(34:54):
driven.
So it's like what feels rightfor me right now.
Um, and and I and I just gowith that because there's so
many different ways a person cancan promote their work.
Amra Pajalic (35:05):
And that's the thing, that's that's what's been
fascinating about being in thisworld now and seeing the ways
that people are creating theirown successes and creating their
own paths.
Can you talk through somelessons and logistics about
touring and how, and um, youknow, in terms of advice or
things that have happened?
Um, like do you come up with umor you look at events that you
(35:28):
can go to?
How how do you yeah?
Koraly Dimitriadis (35:31):
I just I just kind of um in in the same
way that I mentioned beforeabout the prizes, like I, you
know, I'll try and source eventsthat would program people like
me.
Like I don't really approachplaces where I don't think
they're gonna accept me becauseI don't want to waste my time.
(35:51):
So yeah, there's a little bitof research that goes into it,
and also people that I know cometo me and say to me, Oh, you
should apply to this, because Ithink you'd be really great
there.
So, you know, I do take onpeople's feedback in that way as
well.
Um, and yeah, if someone gaveme a bit of advice um recently
(36:12):
that I thought was good, don'tuh it was like don't try and
force yourself into spaces thatyou know won't appreciate you.
Amra Pajalic (36:22):
Yes.
Koraly Dimitriadis (36:23):
And I think that has been a harder lesson
for me to learn because I'vealways been like, well, why?
Why can't I get there?
And why can't I be in thatliterary festival?
And why, why, why?
And then when that person saidthat to me, I was like, yeah, I
know I'm not gonna beappreciated, so why do I even
try?
Yes, you know, like when I tellpeople overseas, you know, oh,
(36:46):
like my poetry is like bestselling for the poetry genre in
Australia, and I've never beeninvited to Melbourne Writers
Festival.
Yeah, you know, or like I'veI've never been invited to any
of like writers' festivals, youknow.
Amra Pajalic (36:58):
A lot of those festivals are by publishers, the
known publishers for, you know,creating um where they invite
you.
So I've been on some of thosefestivals when I've been
published with, you know,traditional publishing.
I've got one festival coming upwhich is based on who I knew.
And you know, so there is a lotof that where it's like people
that you know and people thatyou've created networks with,
(37:20):
um, and that you, you know,generate that through.
Yeah.
Um, but also like what you weresaying in terms of researching,
like even if you are wanting totraditionally publish, you need
to research the agent, or youcan know even if the agent or
the editor or what they'vepublished.
So it's the same thing in theindie world.
There is a lot of thatbackground background stuff that
(37:41):
you have to do.
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (37:42):
And I've also done stuff like, I mean, it
doesn't exist anymore, butSexpo.
I used to do sex bow where itwould just be like um, you know,
loads of like booths about sex,and then you know, there was
only me and this one otherwriter that was selling out
books there, you know, and and Igot a lot of books sold, a lot
of email addresses, you know,I've had a mailing list and
(38:04):
stuff.
Um, and just doing like bookfairs or markets I've done
sometimes, places where, youknow, people that I people that
I know would be interested in mywork go to, you know, just
thinking outside the box.
We don't have to market ourbooks the way, you know, the
publishers do.
(38:24):
We can actually come up withcreative ways.
I mean, even once I was sellingmy books, I don't anymore in
like a fashion store that, youknow, had a lot of like say
Greek women that I knew wentthere, or you know, just trying
different things and seeing whatworks and what doesn't.
Because sometimes, you know,you could put your book in like
(38:45):
a certain gift store that youknow that people that, you know,
would like your book go to andyou can try it out and see how
it goes.
And, you know, it could doreally well.
It could flop.
I guess one of the things youhave to do is try things out and
don't be, don't take it toheart if it doesn't work out.
Because a lot of the timespeople look at me and go, oh,
(39:05):
she's so successful andwhatever.
But they don't see that, youknow, for every success, there's
probably like, you know, 10 to20 like flops is what I call
them.
Like I don't call them failuresanymore because I see those as
stepping stones to me having mysuccess.
And the way you talk toyourself as a writer that is um
doing that is kind of self-made,is really important because the
(39:29):
industry has its voice that cantell you, oh, look at her.
She's just you know doing blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and
she, you know, and just frowningon you for the way you're doing
it.
And it's easy to take on thatvoice.
But when I started saying tomyself, no, don't take on that
voice, that's the that's theestablishment's voice.
Your voice should be like, it'sgreat that you tried that and
it didn't work out.
(39:49):
Try this, maybe, you know, trythat, you know.
And it's so interesting aswell, because my novel that I
was talking to you about beforethat has been rejected from, you
know, every publisher inAustralia, right?
Um, and I know it's gonna getpublished one day.
I just know I don't and I knowit why it hasn't, because it's
really controversial.
But when I was in Cyprusrecently, I was having
discussions with producers andthe Cypriot funding bodies about
(40:13):
changing this novel that hasnever been published into a
film.
And it's like I I was sittingthere going, how is this
possible?
Or even like when I was inLondon talking to a London
theatre about my theatre show,and I can't even get it staged
here.
Yeah.
You know, and there's interest.
And I just go, wow, like it'sso interesting that I can't have
(40:36):
that support here, and I haveto go like abroad to get it.
Amra Pajalic (40:40):
No, I've heard your story before from a
traditionally published authorwho was entering the film scene,
and she was saying the samething.
We started, you know, gettingthings adapted and scripts, and
she's like, it's so much morecollaborative, it's so much more
open to ideas, um, it's it's alot more like things can happen.
(41:01):
And she was finding exactly thesame thing, which is you know
very different.
And I don't know, is it is itthe fact that, you know, as
writers, it's all about thatsolitary pursuit, and therefore,
but then again, to in thepublishing industry, and you
know, even for us getting ourown books produced and published
and printed, there is a lot ofum involvement and a lot of
(41:25):
people, and we create our ownecosystem in terms of editors
and you know, I've doneaudiobooks and narrators, and
you've done movies, and so youknow, people are doing um the
film production, and you know,so there is an industry that
we're creating and that we'reparticipating in, um, but
somehow it does feel a littlebit more uh boxed.
Koraly Dimitriadis (41:45):
Yeah, no, I just I think when you think more
more broadly that you are anartist in your own right and you
can do whatever you want andcollaborate with whoever you
want.
And it doesn't have to bethrough that that Australian
literary canon.
You can you can dabble inthere, sure, dabble in there if
(42:06):
you want.
And that's and that's great.
It's good to have somecollaboration there as well, but
you are a free agent, and thatthat is what an artist is.
An artist, which is what Ilearn a lot when I go to
Cyberpress, when people tell me,but that's you're an artist,
it's your job.
It's your job to question, it'sa job.
And it's like, oh no, not inAustralia, it's not my job.
(42:26):
It's my job to be a goodliterary citizen.
That's my job, you know.
And and when you start thinkingin that more broader way, that
yeah, actually, it is my job toquestion.
It is my job to conduct myselfas an artist in in a way that
feels comfortable for mecreatively.
It like almost like yourcreativity dictates where you
(42:48):
go, who you collaborate with.
Yes.
And and being empowered in thatapproach of what feels right
for me as an artist and as ahuman, then you start saying
then you don't have to boxyourself in.
Amra Pajalic (43:00):
Yes, you know, and I have to say that's what's
been happening for me since I'veentered the indie world and
I've started just creatingthings and releasing them.
And I get these ideas where I'mlike, you know, that the first
instinct is, who am I to thinkthat I can do this?
That's the establishment of it.
(43:20):
And so then I have to gothrough and go, but then it
almost um, the more that you doit, it almost becomes a force
within you.
Yes.
Where it's like, no, this isthe the voice of you know truth,
of I have something to say, Iwant to create this, I want to
put it out there.
Um, and then even I haveconversations, you know, with
(43:43):
people who are outside and whoare not artists, and they're
like, but why?
What are you gonna get out ofit?
Is it going to earn you anincome?
Is it going to and I'm like, Idon't know.
I just need to do it.
I just believe in it.
I just feel that this issomething I have to do and put
out there into the world.
And what I love is that themore that I am listening to my
(44:06):
voice, the more that I amfollowing my ideas, my muse, um,
my passion, the easier it isbecause that first it's fighting
yourself.
It's fighting all of the voicesof the people out there.
And then the more that yourelease things and the more that
you also like talk about thingsto people, where you just have
(44:26):
conversations, or I'm doing thisthing, I'm doing this project.
Think of this podcast, Istarted it for a purpose, which
is to get ones on the board todo a history podcast that I want
to do to showcase the researchfor my PhD and the background
research for my book.
Um, and then you know, now I'mI talk to people and they have
(44:46):
interesting stories, and I'mlike, you know, podcast and just
kind of organically evolves,and it's not so much work.
But the more that you censoryourself and the more that you
close yourself off, the harderit is to be able to do that.
The more, you know, like I'mI'm finding such freedom and
joy.
It's some of those things thatyou were talking about about
(45:08):
going to bookstores and the waythat you've got your books in
your bookstores.
I I haven't been able to dothat.
That's still something that Ihave not been able to kind of
like, oh, I can do that.
So I've still got some internalresistance to certain things,
but I'm building that muscle,I'm building that resilience.
(45:29):
So it's like you're fightingyourself and then eventually.
Koraly Dimitriadis (45:32):
Well, that's great.
I mean, I would say that it'slike when we come into the
industry, it's like we getindoctrinated to think in a
certain way, and we have tounlearn that thinking.
Yes, you know, I agree.
And it's really great seeinglike your journey, because you
know, when I met you, you werelike just traditionally
published and that, and then youtold me you're gonna open your
own press, and you know, and andyou know, you said that I'd
(45:56):
inspired you.
You know, actually a lot ofpeople say, Oh, you inspire me
to do this.
It's a lot of pressuresometimes.
No, but the thing is, you'renot you're not doing that for
anyone but yourself.
Amra Pajalic (46:07):
And what I have seen with you that is the bigger
inspiration is this just thejoy of creation.
Yeah.
Because you know, if we go backto success, what is success?
Yes, is success money?
Is it earning an income fromyour writing?
Is success producing what youbelieve in and just putting it
out there?
(46:27):
What is success?
And I think for both of us, weare arriving at that point where
success is being true toourselves, creating, and just
putting it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (46:38):
Yeah, and also like a writer once told me
something which has always stuckwith me, which is separating
your money from your art.
It gives you so much morecreative control.
And I think when they saysuccess is about, well, artistic
success is supposed to be whenyou're making your money from
your art.
But I think that needs to beshifted a bit.
(46:59):
It should be you're successfulwhen you can make the art you
want to make and you're making aliving at the same time.
Now, where that living iscoming from could be coming from
an investment property, couldbe coming from, you know, like
teaching a couple of days aweek.
But as long as you're doingwhat you what you want to do
creatively, yes, who cares whereyour money comes from?
Amra Pajalic (47:22):
Yes, you know and I agree with that because I'm a
teacher and that is the livingpart of it.
And then that creates thatspace where I don't have to rely
on on trying to make my art umcommercially viable.
Yes.
My art can just be what itneeds to be.
Yes.
(47:42):
Yeah.
Oh, wonderful.
Well, thank you so much.
I've been wanting to talk toyou, just get some of your
perspective and get yourlessons.
Um, just everything that yousaid, I I feel like I am slowly
evolving.
Um, but you you have been likethis this champion um who has
(48:03):
done it all herself and who hasjust blazed this path.
So I want to thank you forthat.
But I just want to thank youalso just for being so generous
where where we have beenreaching out to each other and
sharing and just helping.
Um, and it's just so wonderfulto have someone with that.
Um, and even we're we're doingsome events together, aren't we?
(48:24):
We're doing oh yes, AustraliaBook Fair.
Yeah, the Australian Book Fair,we're gonna be there together.
I'm gonna be together inJanuary and and uh we're looking
maybe at doing clumes togetheror maybe yes.
What we need to see.
So um I'm really excited aboutthose opportunities too, because
that's something else that I'vewanted to do that I've been
really struggling with.
So I'm gonna have you to usherme into it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (48:46):
Yeah, no, it's great.
The the book fair world is isdefinitely something that um
self-made authors shoulddefinitely tap into.
Yeah, because you're definitelyselling directly to the um the
consumer rather than relying onlike a book festival or a
bookshop to sell your work.
And it can also be reallyrewarding because you're
actually having conversationswith the people that are buying
(49:08):
your work.
Yes, you know, and that issomething that we don't get when
we're selling, you know, at aat a bookshop, for example, you
know.
So yeah, no, it's definitelysomething that I I enjoy doing.
Amra Pajalic (49:21):
I love how you um are able to like spin everything
in a positive way.
Because like for me, I'm like,oh my gosh, being out there and
talking to people.
Koraly Dimitriadis (49:29):
Well, it's so interesting because a lot of
the time with these book fairsand that, you get authors that
are like, you know, coming up tome and they're like, oh, you
know, I'm not selling, you know.
And and I just say that's okay,because you know, you're even
like if you're not selling, thefact that you're there and that
people they might walk past yourtable and see your book and
(49:50):
they might pick it up and notbuy it, right?
But they might pick it up andbuy it the next time they see
it, you know.
And so every time people alwayscome to me complaining, I'm
like, it's okay.
The fact that you're here andthat you're marketing your work
and you're talking to youraudience, your potential
audience, that is still, it'sstill marketing.
(50:11):
Like people pay money forpublicists and all that, but
you're there doing thegroundwork.
I see myself as a grassroots umwriter.
I don't see myself as like, oh,you know, I've made it and I'm
too snobby to go to this orthat.
Or I don't see myself that way.
And I know the establishmentmight go, oh, well, look at her.
(50:31):
She has to go to a book fair tosell her books.
And I and I just say, well,who, why do you care so much how
I'm selling my book?
Are you selling books?
How much do you pay to sellyour books?
How much do you pay yourpublicists to sell your books?
Yeah, you know, and you'refrowning at me, you know.
And even I just want to say onething about the Bendigo Writers
(50:52):
Festival.
And I know that, you know, alot of people actually, you
know, pulled out of thatfestival, and that's fine.
They have their every right todo that.
But the idea that the ones thatdidn't pull out pull out are
somehow bad writers, I don'tagree with that.
And I know that some of thewriters that didn't pull out
were were crucified online, andand I don't agree with that at
(51:13):
all.
I I I I support writers inwhatever they want to do, and to
actually get a spot at theBendigo Writers Festival, I've
never been invited.
You know, so to actually havethat spot is is a is a privilege
in itself.
To be able to pull out is alsoa privilege as well.
(51:34):
So I don't agree with any kindof conduct that crucifies people
that that didn't that didn'tthat didn't pull out as their
choice, yeah, you know, to to dothat or not.
And I just I just want to addthat, you know, I I don't frown
at people whether they pulledout or not pulled out, you know.
And that's what artisticfreedom is.
Amra Pajalic (51:53):
That's what it should be.
You stand, you know, you haveto make decisions for yourself,
yes, in terms of what is rightfor you at that time, and it's
not for other people to sitthere questioning, deciding,
judging.
Um or blacklisting, which iswhat happens.
Yeah, and I think um socialmedia is not a place for nuance.
Koraly Dimitriadis (52:12):
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (52:12):
You know, it it is something that benefits us and
we enjoy it, and we know um thatwe, you know, it works in in um
terms of promoting our work andpromoting ourselves, but um
there's no nuance, yeah, andthere is a lot of um nastiness.
Koraly Dimitriadis (52:31):
Yeah, there can be yeah, and I've
experienced a lot of nastinesson online in my career, and I
and I didn't deserve it.
Yeah, you know, and neither doone deserves.
No one deserves that, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (52:42):
Yeah, um, but it does, it does like I do know
what you're because I do thinkabout what I'm going to weed
into, what I'm going to post.
Yes.
Um, and then for me there'sanother layer which is as a
teacher.
Yes, of for sure for youngadults.
So there's there's that part ofit also, but um, you know, it
is also a joy.
Yes.
Uh I do like social media and Ido like like I do connect with
(53:05):
people on social media andcreate friendships and you know
collaborations.
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (53:10):
So yeah, that's I I I think I think that
being an artist and a writer isis a very hard profession.
Yes.
I've worked in IT and I've goneand I've I've worked and I've
got my paycheck and I've gonehome.
And no, it's not hard.
This is hard.
Amra Pajalic (53:25):
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (53:25):
This is hard.
It's very hard on so manydifferent levels to be an
artist.
And I, you know, I hope peopleunderstand that that it is very
difficult.
It's a very difficultprofession.
And actually, a writer I admireonce said to me, if it was
easy, everyone would do it.
And so when I'm having thosehard days, I've always think
that, well, if it was easy,everyone would do it, and I'm
(53:46):
doing it, and I should be proudof the fact that I'm doing it.
Amra Pajalic (53:50):
Well, that's for me, my success has been that I
have achieved longevity.
That's 20 years of, you know,trying, actually, 28 years
probably, of, you know,publishing and and working at
it, I'm still doing it.
But having said that, I have nochoice.
It is my oxygen.
Yes, me too, yeah.
Yeah, and so that's the otherthing about being an artist.
(54:12):
You can't not do it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much,Coralie.
Um, I hope you've enjoyed thischat and you can connect with
Coralie online and check out herwork.
She is amazing.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for tuning intoAmra's armchair anecdotes.
(54:32):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pailich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how-to guidesat amrage.com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I'm interviewing CoralieDimitriades.
She's a Cypriot Australianpoet, filmmaker, freelance
writer, and founder of Outsidethe Box Press.
(00:45):
She's actually the one who gaveme the idea to start my own
imprint.
Yes, you're full of good ideas.
Her breakout collection, Loveand Fuck Poems, became a
bestseller.
So we've got it there.
Translated into Greek, waslonglisted for the UK Poetry
Book Awards.
And in 2025, she won Best Bookof Narrative Poetry at the
(01:06):
Legacy Book Awards.
She followed it with Just GiveMe the Pills and She's Not
Normal, cementing her reputationas one of Australia's boldest
poetic voices.
Coralie's short storycollection, The Mother Must Die,
was published by Puncher andWatman in 2024.
And her opinion writing, ofwhich there are over 160 pieces,
(01:29):
have appeared in The Guardian,The Age, Al Jazeera, The
Washington Post, and more.
She's also a filmmaker, and herpoetry films have screened on
SBS On Demand at the SydneyOpera House, International
Festivals, have earned multipleawards, including the Monologues
and Poetry International FilmFestival at the USA.
(01:50):
She's a fearless creative.
She moves between the page andthe stage and screen, uses her
art at small business platformto challenge taboos, celebrate
identity, and inspire women tospeak the truth.
Thank you so much for coming onmy podcast.
Thanks for having me.
So you are someone that I havebeen incredibly inspired by, I
(02:14):
just have to tell you.
Wow.
Because you have really forgedyour own path.
You have really created yourown artistic journey and just
pursued what your art is andjust let it speak for itself.
So could you take us back alittle bit and tell us about
your, you know, the beginningfor you?
Koraly Dimitriadis (02:34):
Yeah, um, well, I always wanted to be an
artist, but I wasn't reallyallowed to pursue it because I
had very kind of strict migrantparents.
But um, when I got older andafter I had my daughter, I just
something inside me snapped andI just decided to pursue my
dream.
(02:55):
And it came with poetry.
Um, the the poetry became kindof like the liberation, but I
was also writing a novel in umsecret before that that um is
still not published, but will bepublished one day, I'm sure.
And um I just noticed when Icame onto the art scene that um
(03:17):
while I was feeling veryrepressed by my culture and I
saw art as or the art sector asmy liberation, I s I very
quickly became aware that I wastrying to be that that powers
were trying to silence me, werenot being appreciative of my of
the way I was writing, we'rewere frowning at the way I was
(03:40):
writing, and that it wasn't likeproper literary standards.
And um, and so I when I wantedto publish Love and F poems, I
um I didn't even send it topublishers.
I just did it on my own as azine, and then it started
selling very well, and then Iturned it into a book and I
started outside the box press.
(04:02):
And um yeah, just I think Ifluctuated through my whole
career of trying to appease theestablishment and and wasted a
lot of time trying to do that,you know, waiting years and
years for publishers to get backto me about my my poetry books
and then getting rejected, andthen just realizing that my
(04:25):
books weren't getting publishedat the time that I wanted them
to be published.
So uh I've made a decision inthe last few years to only
publish my poetry through my ownpress and not to send it to
publishers.
But with my other books likefiction, I'm still pursuing
those avenues and I still workwith industry, but because I
(04:46):
have my own press with its owndistribution in a way I'm not
answerable to industry because Ialways have that to fall back
on.
Even for my fiction, if at theend of the day I can't find a
publisher, I will do it throughmy press.
And so having that power tofall back on, my own press, um,
has made me um, you know, not asscared to say what I want to
(05:13):
say and and do what I want todo.
However, having said that, itdoes still come as a price when
you at a price when you saythings that the establishment
don't like.
Amra Pajalic (05:24):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think many people realise,
um, but for those of us whohave been on the publishing
scene, it is quite a smallscene.
Everyone kind of knows eachother, you get known uh around
by people, and you know, thereis certain expectations in terms
of writing and publishing andperception and presenting
(05:47):
yourself.
And um, you know, like I thinkthat when we come from a
multicultural background, ourthemes and the things that we
write about are just they normalto us.
This is what we write about,these are the people that we
know, and then there's thisperception of you know, it's
gritty writing, it's um thesethings, and so sometimes that
(06:09):
can be the difficult thing.
Koraly Dimitriadis (06:11):
Yeah, and and I I would say because I I do
do a lot of touring um thanksto funding from the Syria
government, and I spend a lot oftime in Europe and Cyprus, and
the more time I spend there,like for example, recently I
went to a poetry event inCyprus, and all the poets that
were performing had a similarstyle or rawness to their
(06:33):
poetry.
And as I was sitting there, Iwas thinking, it's the colonial
powers here that say that ourwriting doesn't meet literary
merit because their perceptionof literary merit is a colonial
perception.
And actually, my writing stemsfrom my ancestry because the
poets that I'm around in Cyprusare writing like me.
(06:55):
And so, you know, when thatwhen you submit to prizes and
publishers and all that, and andyou see this term in Australia,
I'm talking now, because inAustralia our sector is very
removed from the rest of theworld.
In Europe, it's a completelydifferent perception.
So when you're here and you seethat term, oh, we only accept
(07:17):
manuscripts of the highestliterary merit, you go, no, what
you're saying to me is youaccept manuscripts through a
colonial lens of writing, andyou're not going to publish me
because I don't sound like that.
And I'm not gonna go touniversity and be taught to
write like that because that'swhat they do.
They teach you this is theproper way to write, which is a
(07:38):
colonial way to write.
And I'm not saying that othercultures don't get published,
they do, but it's a verytokenistic view.
Oh, we've got to have our fromthis culture and that culture,
and you know, well, the Greekshave had their days, so you
know, we don't have to choosesomeone from that culture.
And so that's how they viewtheir literary merit.
It's very colonial andtokenistic.
Amra Pajalic (07:57):
And that's because, you know, let's be
honest here, who are the peoplewho are working in the
publishing industry?
What background?
You know, there's not enough umdiversity there because it is
not accessible for people, youknow, these days for anyone to
get a job as an editor, um,which is becoming harder and
more thankless because there isconstriction in the industry.
(08:18):
There's the expectation ofdoing unpaid internships.
Who can afford to do that?
You and me wouldn't have beenable to afford to do that.
We were out there um, you know,very early on in our lives,
working, having to paymortgages.
Um, and so it's very limitingabout who can access those
opportunities and who has uh theability to kind of keep pushing
(08:40):
through some of those burdens.
Koraly Dimitriadis (08:44):
And and not just that as well, but the the
people that they choose to bethese editors and that, they're
people that are conductingthemselves in a way that the
establishment likes.
You know, they're not going toput me, you know, as an as an
editor, for example, of anestablished literary journal
(09:04):
because like I don't conductmyself or I the way a good
literary citizen in Australiashould conduct themselves.
So it's it's also that in thatway as well, these positions of
of power, you know, who who arethey, who are they putting
there?
Amra Pajalic (09:22):
Yeah, you know, and there's also just the
reality of, because I have a lotof friends who are also of you
know, Anglo-Celtic backgroundwho are writing crime fiction
novels, and just the way thatthe industry, even then, like
some of them are best-sellingauthors, and they don't hear
from the editors, they don't gettold about things that are
going on just because of thefact that publishing houses are
(09:45):
underfunded, they've got so manybooks coming through.
Um, and then there are certainpeople who become, you know,
bestsellers and develop thoselonger, deep relationships.
And then uh, yeah, there'sthere's just the reality on the
ground of these days, thepublishing industry.
Koraly Dimitriadis (10:04):
Yeah, and I just want to add to what I was
saying because um, yes, likemaybe when I started my career
15 years ago, the industry wasmore better funded and um there
were more opportunities.
Now we're just seeing ashrinking of the arts as a whole
around the world.
We're getting more censorshipin the arts as well than there
(10:25):
ever has been before.
Um, and because, you know, if Ilook at America, for example,
we get a lot of you know, theways that we do things in
Australia, we get a lot of thatfrom America.
So we're getting a culminationof this, what we were talking
about before and the way theindustry works.
Plus, on top of that, now therealities of being in the arts,
(10:49):
underfunded, censored.
It's, you know, I really dofeel for the newer generation
coming through in this space.
And, you know, I mentor a lotof writers, younger writers as
well.
And I have to, I don't want tobe one of those teachers that
says that doesn't say what therealities are.
I have to say them what therealities are.
I don't want to waste people'stime.
(11:10):
I wasted a lot of my timetrying to figure all this stuff
out, you know.
So um, yeah, I mean, I'm notsaying don't go into the arts if
that's what you want to do, butbeing aware of the realities,
but there's also a lot ofopportunity for for you if you
know you think outside the box.
As an artist should.
Amra Pajalic (11:30):
And that's that's the thing.
We have both.
Like I had a beautifulapprenticeship to the publishing
industry where my first book, Idid not realize how hard it was
because I submitted my firstbook to a prize, um, the Twin
Premier's Prize for anunpublished manuscript.
I got shortlisted.
Um, I got uh publishers givingme their business cards at the
(11:54):
ceremony because they used to dothese beautiful, amazing
ceremonies and announcements andstuff.
Um I got top agent in a CurtisBrown.
I had my agent submit it tofive publishers.
I had two offers.
Wow.
Um got published, had beautifulreviews, global financial
(12:14):
crisis happened, and splat went.
Koraly Dimitriadis (12:18):
What year was that?
2009.
Yeah, so yeah, think aboutthat, what what the situation
is.
Amra Pajalic (12:24):
That was so long ago now.
And then it kind of just gotharder and harder, and I still
had um still got traditionallypublished, but it just got to a
point where, like you, um, allthis time spent waiting and
giving other people ourintellectual property, not
(12:45):
having control, uh facingconstraints, uh, it became, and
also I was getting rights backto books that I had had
published.
Um, and I was like, well, mayas well.
Um and now I am personally ofthe view, and I think you agree
with me, that being anindependently published authors
(13:06):
is the only way to get a viableincome as an artist these days,
because even if you aretraditionally published, you get
very small advances, and onlydo you earn royalties if you've
paid back those advances.
Um, I wanted to pick upsomething that you were talking
about earlier, which is that youhad your own distribution for
(13:28):
your books.
And that's the thing, when youare an Indie author, you have to
take on board all of themarketing, all of the
distribution, all of thebusiness side of it.
So could you talk us through umhow this evolved and where
where it's at and some lessons?
Koraly Dimitriadis (13:42):
Um, so I have worked with publicists, so
I've hired publicistsoccasionally, they are
expensive.
I was lucky early in my careerI had um some publicers that
wanted to work with me andbelieved in what I was doing and
did it at like a cheaper rate.
I don't think these days that'spossible with the high cost of
living.
But the way that I got adistributor, so I've got a
(14:07):
national distributor forAustralia, New Zealand
Woodslang, was that um, youknow, my poetry book, Love and F
Poems, I just put it in um likeone or two bookshops.
And uh especially with thebookshop Colliester books on
Brunswick Street, it doesn'texist anymore.
But they were just selling alot of the books.
(14:29):
And so I then went to otherbookshops and said, Oh, look,
this bookshop is selling out ofmy books.
Can you order my books?
And then they just kind ofbecome jealous of each other,
like, oh, that bookshop's gotit.
Well, maybe I should get it.
And then, you know, it um itjust started like a chain
reaction of and you know, have ahuge spreadsheet to keep a
(14:49):
track of all my books and whohad my books and this and that.
And then I was able to takethat data to um distributors,
and there are only, I think,like 10 distributors in
Australia.
And I tried them all, and theyall said no, except for
Woodslang, who was like, Oh, wedon't even do poetry, but
there's something about you,we'll give it a go.
And you know, you only need oneperson sometimes to say yes,
(15:10):
and always remember that that'sone of the things I teach my
students all the time.
You only need one person to sayyes.
And um, yeah, they've beendistributing my books for like
over 10 years now.
They're very supportive of mywork, and um, they're also
started up a pub a publishingpress as well.
(15:30):
So um, you know, they've gonefrom distributor and publisher
to publisher as well.
Um, so yeah, it's um they'rethey're not like they're more of
an academic distributor than aliterary distributor, like then
literary distributors.
Well, I'm not literary.
How can love and f columns beliterary?
Um, you know, so I was with uman academic, you know,
(15:56):
distributor and and it workedout.
Amra Pajalic (15:58):
And also one of the things that you did was you
actually um said there's twoways that we can do printing and
publishing as independentauthors.
We can do the on-demand throughIngram Spark, which means a
higher cost per book.
Yes.
Or you can do offset printingwhere you print a few thousand
copies and the unit um price foreach one is much cheaper.
(16:20):
And so that's what you did withthe distributor.
So you were able to.
Do you still do that or what'sthe process now?
Koraly Dimitriadis (16:27):
Um now that print on demand is actually
relatively um on par with umoffset actually.
So um Eevee's a bit cheaper togo offset, and I um have done
multiple print runs.
I I could do um with the withthe print on with the offset I
(16:49):
was doing, I could do 600copies.
Um, and you know, I've donequite a few um print runs that
way, but in the last few years,um, print on demand has just
worked better for me because Itour a lot.
So what that means is if if I'min Cyprus, I can print my books
in in Europe and get themshipped to me rather than do a
(17:12):
print run of say 600, have themdelivered to Australia and then
have to take them overseas.
It just doesn't suit me anymorenow with all the traveling I
have to do.
I mean, if even if like sayI've got a gig in Germany, which
I did, I I just I just printedbooks and sent them right to the
gig, you know, so that reducesmy costs of um having to, you
(17:33):
know, post yeah, because books,yeah, local printing, local
postage.
Amra Pajalic (17:38):
Yeah.
And we know that sendinganything from Australia is so
expensive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so I was wondering, um, youknow, maybe if you wouldn't
mind sharing uh a memory of whenspeaking your truth got you in
trouble, but you knew you had tostand by it.
(17:59):
Um, but you know, if you're notokay with that, that's okay.
Koraly Dimitriadis (18:03):
Um, look, I mean, you know, it's speaking my
truth has been um a journey inand of itself because there have
been times where I've spoken mytruth and I've gotten
blacklisted, and um, you know,and and the the first time I got
really blacklisted, uh, youknow, I it really affected my
(18:24):
mental health.
Um, and I, you know, it itstopped me from writing what I
wanted to write for a reallylong time.
And I've got a lot of um poetrythat I just never showed
anyone, you know, that that I II feel will come up in my in my
next poetry collection, which isabout um, it's called Um That's
(18:45):
What They Do, and it's about umemotional abuse, but all the
different ways a person canexperience emotional abuse, one
of which is through theirworkplace.
And um, you know, but after Iwent through that experience, I
just know I I came to this pointwhere I was like, Coralie,
either, you know, give up or oror do what you want to do.
(19:07):
Because this in-between spacewas held.
It was like, you know, kind ofwriting, but not writing what I
want to write and trying toappease with being scared.
And so I just I just made adecision that I'm just gonna go
for it because I had I hadalready had that scar, that
Exxon might on me.
(19:28):
So, you know, um, and now whenI publish things that um I know
are controversial, I'm not I'mnot as scared.
And if I do publish somethingthat I think I maybe I shouldn't
have said that I might take itdown and then reflect on it and
then think, oh, you know, Idon't want to say that because I
(19:49):
can't be bothered with theblack backlash of it, you know,
because at the end of the day, Ihave I'm a human and I have to
worry about my own my own mentalhealth.
So when people look at me andthink, oh, she's such a fearless
writer, I actually don't say alot.
And it's not because I don't, Idon't want to say it and I
won't ever say it.
It just means right at thatpoint I don't feel comfortable
(20:12):
saying it, but it might come upin a book in a year or two or
three.
And that's what I teach mystudents.
It's sometimes it's not theright time to say what you want
to say, but that doesn't meanyou never have to say it.
Amra Pajalic (20:24):
And that's the joy of the artist artistic life.
We just keep collecting things,collect, you know, collecting
um and writing and havingthings, and then as you said,
it's eventually like, well, thisis going to be the body of the
work.
Yes.
This is going to be the themethat it sort of evolves under
and and you know, developsunder.
Um, I think we've spoken beforealso, you know, in terms of
(20:45):
your freelance writing, like,you know, you've got over uh 160
pieces published, but youactually were getting published
overseas more than you weregetting published in Australia.
And that's how you sort ofbuild up your body of work.
Koraly Dimitriadis (20:59):
Yeah, I I think no, I was I was published
in Australia more, but I thinkwhen I started getting those um
runs on the board overseas, thathelped me get more stuff
published in Australia becausein Australia there's this, it's
really bad, but there's this theindustry operates in this way
of like, oh, well, she's gettingruns on the board overseas, so
(21:20):
we better publish her here.
But if I didn't have those runson the board, then maybe I
wouldn't have got thoseopportunities here.
So there's there's that toconsider as well.
With and you know, it's areality of the Australian
publishing industry or mediaindustry, because I think we're
so far removed from the rest ofthe world that if someone
somehow makes a splash overseas,then they must, you know, have
(21:44):
must be good.
So yeah.
Um, but these days actually Idon't really publish um opinion,
and that's because the mediahas changed so much in the last
few years.
The last few times I've beenpublished by mainstream media, I
just haven't been happy withthe result because they edit me,
they don't, they they cutthings without even asking me,
(22:08):
you know, and then I end up withthis article that isn't a
reflection of what I wanted tosay.
And so now I've moved over tosocial media, mainly TikTok and
Instagram, mostly TikTok, tojust make videos about my views
because then I can just say whatI want to say.
And yes, I'm not getting paid,you know, but I'm also
increasing my platform, whichmeans I'm selling books as well.
(22:31):
Um, and it's not as much moneyas getting published in in the
media, but for me, I don't care.
I would rather say make moneyteaching and saying what I want
to say, and um and and thatmakes me happy.
I don't, I don't, I I spent somany years of my life, you know,
in a very repressive kind ofculture, you know, married at 22
(22:53):
and you know, not feeling ableto say what I want to say.
And so as an adult now, I justthink, well, life is too short.
And if I'm gonna be an artist,I want to do it my way and I
want to say what I want to say.
Amra Pajalic (23:04):
Yeah, like what you're talking about, I've I'm
very pragmatic.
When I get things published andthey edit, I just accept all.
I don't care.
I'm like paycheck.
Yeah, you know, and so it'slike you really have to decide
where is your energy, which is,you know, is it about like what
you're wanting to say and thefact that once you're being paid
(23:25):
for, there is that compromisethat comes into it.
There is that um sensoristicthat comes into it, the lens
that it sort of needs to fit.
Um, or and you know, like youI'm slowly sort of moving away
from wanting that too, um, whereit's like it's it's about that
freedom and about, yeah, likenot where's the opportunities?
(23:49):
Where do you want to put theenergy?
Koraly Dimitriadis (23:51):
And also I found it demoralizing because I
found that a lot of the timesthe editors make me feel like
there's something wrong with me,like I'm somehow not writing
properly because I'm notpitching ideas or saying things
the way they want me to say it.
But really, if you look at itmore closely, the media has
(24:12):
been, you know, compromised inthe last at least five years.
I remember when I first startedwriting opinion, I was getting
like three articles published aweek, and I was just saying
whatever I wanted to say.
You know, now they make youfeel like, oh, there's something
wrong with your writing.
That's why you're not gettingpublished.
No, it's not that.
And for a while I thought itwas that, and then I was like,
(24:34):
no, hang on a minute.
Like the media is socompromised.
And I've been saying it foryears and years and years, and
now, now we're seeing it clearlyhow how it's compromised.
We can see it clearly, youknow.
Amra Pajalic (24:47):
So that clash and the censorship that's happening.
And you know, if we look at theBendigo Writers Festival and
all of the authors, um, I'm soproud of them, like who were
given these uh agreements thatthey were supposed to sign about
what they would say and whatthey would talk about on stage
and refused because enough'senough.
Yeah.
(25:07):
You know, and uh there'sfinally that acknowledgement.
Um, but even with withpublishing, I agree with you
because I I was experiencing thesame thing where I would be
submitting books that I reallybelieved in and that I'd spent
time on and it just wasn'tgetting anywhere.
And so in the first few yearswould be like, it's me.
(25:28):
These books aren't wood, um,they're not worth it.
And then in in some instances,you know, things would would get
published elsewhere or extractswould get published elsewhere.
And I'm like, well, is itreally not good?
Or is it just not fitting, youknow, what what what perception
is or what's popular or whatthey think that's it's selling
(25:50):
at the time.
And uh now I've gotten to thepoint where I don't even submit
anymore to the traditionalpublishing scene.
Um, because you know what wewere talking about earlier, in
terms of the contracts that theyask you to sign, you're giving
away world rights.
Um even though they might notbe exploiting your world rights.
(26:11):
They will only be publishing itin Australia and maybe New
Zealand.
And so you're giving up rightsthat then you can't exploit.
Um, and it's like, you know, ifwe publish it on demand, we
will get a few sales overseas,you know, depending on our
marketing efforts, but it will.
There will be some peoplebuying it overseas.
(26:32):
And that is so amazing when yousee it on your Ingram Spark
dashboard where it's like, oh,someone in France bought a copy
of my book.
Oh my gosh, someone in Germanydid, you know, like these things
are just so exciting and soheartening.
Yeah.
Um, and so you know, it's it'sagain that compromise of um, do
you want someone who does all ofthe work for you, all of that
(26:54):
social marketing and production?
Uh, and therefore you give upyour, you know, um, autonomy and
uh opportunities made they haveto sort of do all of that or
the other side of it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (27:08):
So yeah, I mean, look, these days you don't
have to sign world rights, butusually it's expected with um
Puncher and Watman, they have myAustralian New Zealand rights
and I and outside the Brox Presshas the European rights.
Wonderful.
You know, I mean, yeah, thatwasn't something that they they
wanted at the start, but that'ssomething that that's what's
it's resulted in because it itjust wasn't feasible if I'm
(27:32):
touring so much to have to getbooks from Puncher and Watman
shipped from Australia to Europewhen I can just print them in
Europe, like I said before.
Um, but also that you know, I Iwould I would caution um you
know new writers as well to whenthey they are gonna sign with a
publisher, really ask what kindof marketing budget are they
(27:53):
gonna actually um you know putput forward for your book?
Because, you know, with Puncherand Wottman, for example, there
really wasn't, you know, abudget, you know, and um, but
with bigger publishers, therethere is a budget, you know.
So there's also all that toweigh up.
I mean, I wanted to bepublished with a publisher
because that's something Iwanted to experience.
I'd never done it before.
(28:14):
So um, you know, and and it'sturned out okay.
You know, there's been somepros and some cons, but I don't
regret it.
So um, you know, but um, yeah,definitely be looking at the the
marketing because a lot ofpublishers these days, they
don't even have properdistribution, even.
They won't even get your bookin a bookshop.
So if you're looking at apublisher, you need to go, okay,
(28:36):
are there books at my localbookshop?
You know, and and what kind ofdistribution do they have?
What kind of marketing do theyhave?
But then when you ask thosequestions, when you get to the
point of getting published, it'salmost seen as like
disrespectful, like this.
How dare you ask for that orthis?
You know, you should bethankful which is you from a
(28:57):
slush pile of 200 books and thisand that.
And it shouldn't be that way,you know.
Amra Pajalic (29:02):
It should be near it as a partnership, yeah.
But uh, because I had thatexperience too when I tried to
negotiate.
Yeah.
Um and uh, you know, uh we'rewe're cut out so much in one way
where it's like, well, itshould be a partnership, yeah.
Because at the end of the day,everything that we're doing,
it's about promoting, it's aboutcreating opportunities.
Um, but it's almost like uhyeah, you've just got spotlight
(29:25):
for six weeks, moving on, um,and whatever they control.
Equal guy, I remember I'm notgonna say the author's name, but
they got published with atraditional publisher.
Koraly Dimitriadis (29:35):
A big one, like a big one, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (29:37):
Yeah, uh one of the five.
And they were doing promotionand all of this.
And then the um publisher gottheir nose put bent out of joint
about their promotion effortsand what they were doing.
And they were like, This authoris um out of bounds in their
promotion.
Koraly Dimitriadis (29:56):
No, wait, I've never heard of that before.
Amra Pajalic (29:58):
It was it was really
Koraly Dimitriadis (30:00):
Really um so they had to do the promotion
like how the publisher wantedthem to do it.
Amra Pajalic (30:05):
You know, there was something about the
publisher not being happy, aboutwhat they were doing and the
ways that they were promoting.
And so it does, it does limit II didn't know that they
definitely wouldn't be happybefore.
I if I could do an episode oneday of all of the dark stories I
know.
Oh, me too.
The little little dark nooksand and you know, because there
(30:26):
is a lot that goes on.
I mean, I think it's in everyindustry, like even as a
teacher, yeah, you know, there'sthere's the dark side of it all
um that you kind of just lookaway from because you're like,
we can't we can't look there.
Yeah.
Um, but can you talk about someof the um promotion and
marketing uh that you've beendoing and like what what things
have you found the mostaccessible?
(30:47):
Because even recently you'vebeen submitting to book prizes
um and you won book prizes,which which has been, you know,
creating more opportunities foryou.
Koraly Dimitriadis (30:56):
Yeah, I mean, with book prizes, um it's
a bit of a hit and miss.
Like I don't really submit thatmuch to prizes unless I think
there's a chance.
Like I always look at what kindof books get chosen.
And if it's a very literarykind of list and nothing really
edgy, I don't even submit.
(31:18):
Or if the judges are veryliterary, you know, I don't
submit.
So um, but with American BookFests, which is where I've had
some luck, and then UK PoetryBook Awards, I could see that
they were, you know, choosingpeople that were a bit left of
center, so that's why I submitit there.
Um, I've I found like uh socialmedia very helpful.
(31:39):
Like I said before, sometimes Iwork with publicists, but also
just um touring, you know, andleaving Australia, which I know
it's not easy for a lot ofpeople to do, but I've been
lucky because I'm a dualcitizen.
I get funding from the Cypriotgovernment to do a lot of my
touring.
Like they've funded me to go toNew Zealand, to America, around
Europe, to Cyprus.
(32:00):
So um, and that's been thatsupport has been absolutely
pivotal to my success because ofthat thing I told you about
before about how the Australianestablishment views you more
highly if you're kicking goalsoverseas.
And so, you know, um the waythat that Cyprus funding um is
(32:26):
awarded is is a bit more lax, Iwould say, and a bit more like
not as bureaucratic.
Like if you look at the fundingum guidelines here for you know
Creative Australia and umCreative Victoria, you know, for
someone that doesn't have thatbureaucratic kind of head, it's
(32:46):
so it's almost impossible to getfunding.
Those regulations are hard.
Amra Pajalic (32:52):
Yeah, it's like you have to start very early on
preparing the information,collecting, justifying, writing,
and then the word count.
Koraly Dimitriadis (33:02):
Yeah, it it's it's it's just very
inaccessible.
And also the way that it's umthe funding is treason, I don't
I don't think is is very fair,like that it's peer-based,
because then if the the pepeople on the board you know
don't like you, then you're notgonna get the funding.
Whereas in in Cyprus, that it'snot just peer-based, there's
(33:23):
actually people from the officethat are sitting there as well.
And um, yeah, I just I've hadmore luck.
I've had more luck overseas, soI've just been able to just use
that to my advantage to reallylift my profile um and just you
know perform at events aroundEurope and things like that.
And I was recently in Berlin,I'd never performed in Berlin
(33:46):
before, and I got such a likewarm reception, just talking
about all this stuff that we'retalking about right now.
They were just so fascinatedbecause there's this perception
in Europe that Australia is thislike like very like you know,
liberated, you know, artistic,you know, space, you know, and
like this it's just not like no,it's more conservative than it
(34:09):
is here, you know.
And um, I remember one day Isaid I said to someone in
Cyprus, oh, I'm gonna write apoem about it was something in
the media.
I'm gonna write a poem aboutthis and put it out there.
What do you think?
And then they were like, Whyare you even asking me this
question?
Isn't it your job to do that?
And I said, No, but if I saidsomething like that in
(34:32):
Australia, I would get, youknow, blacklisted or whatever.
And they're like, that's soweird.
Why would you get blacklisted?
Like, they don't evenunderstand when you talk about
this stuff.
They don't get it.
Um, so yeah, just to answeryour question, yeah, uh, it's
it's I I the way that I promotemy work is very um creatively
(34:54):
driven.
So it's like what feels rightfor me right now.
Um, and and I and I just gowith that because there's so
many different ways a person cancan promote their work.
Amra Pajalic (35:05):
And that's the thing, that's that's what's been
fascinating about being in thisworld now and seeing the ways
that people are creating theirown successes and creating their
own paths.
Can you talk through somelessons and logistics about
touring and how, and um, youknow, in terms of advice or
things that have happened?
Um, like do you come up with umor you look at events that you
(35:28):
can go to?
How how do you yeah?
Koraly Dimitriadis (35:31):
I just I just kind of um in in the same
way that I mentioned beforeabout the prizes, like I, you
know, I'll try and source eventsthat would program people like
me.
Like I don't really approachplaces where I don't think
they're gonna accept me becauseI don't want to waste my time.
(35:51):
So yeah, there's a little bitof research that goes into it,
and also people that I know cometo me and say to me, Oh, you
should apply to this, because Ithink you'd be really great
there.
So, you know, I do take onpeople's feedback in that way as
well.
Um, and yeah, if someone gaveme a bit of advice um recently
(36:12):
that I thought was good, don'tuh it was like don't try and
force yourself into spaces thatyou know won't appreciate you.
Amra Pajalic (36:22):
Yes.
Koraly Dimitriadis (36:23):
And I think that has been a harder lesson
for me to learn because I'vealways been like, well, why?
Why can't I get there?
And why can't I be in thatliterary festival?
And why, why, why?
And then when that person saidthat to me, I was like, yeah, I
know I'm not gonna beappreciated, so why do I even
try?
Yes, you know, like when I tellpeople overseas, you know, oh,
(36:46):
like my poetry is like bestselling for the poetry genre in
Australia, and I've never beeninvited to Melbourne Writers
Festival.
Yeah, you know, or like I'veI've never been invited to any
of like writers' festivals, youknow.
Amra Pajalic (36:58):
A lot of those festivals are by publishers, the
known publishers for, you know,creating um where they invite
you.
So I've been on some of thosefestivals when I've been
published with, you know,traditional publishing.
I've got one festival coming upwhich is based on who I knew.
And you know, so there is a lotof that where it's like people
that you know and people thatyou've created networks with,
(37:20):
um, and that you, you know,generate that through.
Yeah.
Um, but also like what you weresaying in terms of researching,
like even if you are wanting totraditionally publish, you need
to research the agent, or youcan know even if the agent or
the editor or what they'vepublished.
So it's the same thing in theindie world.
There is a lot of thatbackground background stuff that
(37:41):
you have to do.
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (37:42):
And I've also done stuff like, I mean, it
doesn't exist anymore, butSexpo.
I used to do sex bow where itwould just be like um, you know,
loads of like booths about sex,and then you know, there was
only me and this one otherwriter that was selling out
books there, you know, and and Igot a lot of books sold, a lot
of email addresses, you know,I've had a mailing list and
(38:04):
stuff.
Um, and just doing like bookfairs or markets I've done
sometimes, places where, youknow, people that I people that
I know would be interested in mywork go to, you know, just
thinking outside the box.
We don't have to market ourbooks the way, you know, the
publishers do.
(38:24):
We can actually come up withcreative ways.
I mean, even once I was sellingmy books, I don't anymore in
like a fashion store that, youknow, had a lot of like say
Greek women that I knew wentthere, or you know, just trying
different things and seeing whatworks and what doesn't.
Because sometimes, you know,you could put your book in like
(38:45):
a certain gift store that youknow that people that, you know,
would like your book go to andyou can try it out and see how
it goes.
And, you know, it could doreally well.
It could flop.
I guess one of the things youhave to do is try things out and
don't be, don't take it toheart if it doesn't work out.
Because a lot of the timespeople look at me and go, oh,
(39:05):
she's so successful andwhatever.
But they don't see that, youknow, for every success, there's
probably like, you know, 10 to20 like flops is what I call
them.
Like I don't call them failuresanymore because I see those as
stepping stones to me having mysuccess.
And the way you talk toyourself as a writer that is um
doing that is kind of self-made,is really important because the
(39:29):
industry has its voice that cantell you, oh, look at her.
She's just you know doing blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and
she, you know, and just frowningon you for the way you're doing
it.
And it's easy to take on thatvoice.
But when I started saying tomyself, no, don't take on that
voice, that's the that's theestablishment's voice.
Your voice should be like, it'sgreat that you tried that and
it didn't work out.
(39:49):
Try this, maybe, you know, trythat, you know.
And it's so interesting aswell, because my novel that I
was talking to you about beforethat has been rejected from, you
know, every publisher inAustralia, right?
Um, and I know it's gonna getpublished one day.
I just know I don't and I knowit why it hasn't, because it's
really controversial.
But when I was in Cyprusrecently, I was having
discussions with producers andthe Cypriot funding bodies about
(40:13):
changing this novel that hasnever been published into a
film.
And it's like I I was sittingthere going, how is this
possible?
Or even like when I was inLondon talking to a London
theatre about my theatre show,and I can't even get it staged
here.
Yeah.
You know, and there's interest.
And I just go, wow, like it'sso interesting that I can't have
(40:36):
that support here, and I haveto go like abroad to get it.
Amra Pajalic (40:40):
No, I've heard your story before from a
traditionally published authorwho was entering the film scene,
and she was saying the samething.
We started, you know, gettingthings adapted and scripts, and
she's like, it's so much morecollaborative, it's so much more
open to ideas, um, it's it's alot more like things can happen.
(41:01):
And she was finding exactly thesame thing, which is you know
very different.
And I don't know, is it is itthe fact that, you know, as
writers, it's all about thatsolitary pursuit, and therefore,
but then again, to in thepublishing industry, and you
know, even for us getting ourown books produced and published
and printed, there is a lot ofum involvement and a lot of
(41:25):
people, and we create our ownecosystem in terms of editors
and you know, I've doneaudiobooks and narrators, and
you've done movies, and so youknow, people are doing um the
film production, and you know,so there is an industry that
we're creating and that we'reparticipating in, um, but
somehow it does feel a littlebit more uh boxed.
Koraly Dimitriadis (41:45):
Yeah, no, I just I think when you think more
more broadly that you are anartist in your own right and you
can do whatever you want andcollaborate with whoever you
want.
And it doesn't have to bethrough that that Australian
literary canon.
You can you can dabble inthere, sure, dabble in there if
(42:06):
you want.
And that's and that's great.
It's good to have somecollaboration there as well, but
you are a free agent, and thatthat is what an artist is.
An artist, which is what Ilearn a lot when I go to
Cyberpress, when people tell me,but that's you're an artist,
it's your job.
It's your job to question, it'sa job.
And it's like, oh no, not inAustralia, it's not my job.
(42:26):
It's my job to be a goodliterary citizen.
That's my job, you know.
And and when you start thinkingin that more broader way, that
yeah, actually, it is my job toquestion.
It is my job to conduct myselfas an artist in in a way that
feels comfortable for mecreatively.
It like almost like yourcreativity dictates where you
(42:48):
go, who you collaborate with.
Yes.
And and being empowered in thatapproach of what feels right
for me as an artist and as ahuman, then you start saying
then you don't have to boxyourself in.
Amra Pajalic (43:00):
Yes, you know, and I have to say that's what's
been happening for me since I'veentered the indie world and
I've started just creatingthings and releasing them.
And I get these ideas where I'mlike, you know, that the first
instinct is, who am I to thinkthat I can do this?
That's the establishment of it.
(43:20):
And so then I have to gothrough and go, but then it
almost um, the more that you doit, it almost becomes a force
within you.
Yes.
Where it's like, no, this isthe the voice of you know truth,
of I have something to say, Iwant to create this, I want to
put it out there.
Um, and then even I haveconversations, you know, with
(43:43):
people who are outside and whoare not artists, and they're
like, but why?
What are you gonna get out ofit?
Is it going to earn you anincome?
Is it going to and I'm like, Idon't know.
I just need to do it.
I just believe in it.
I just feel that this issomething I have to do and put
out there into the world.
And what I love is that themore that I am listening to my
(44:06):
voice, the more that I amfollowing my ideas, my muse, um,
my passion, the easier it isbecause that first it's fighting
yourself.
It's fighting all of the voicesof the people out there.
And then the more that yourelease things and the more that
you also like talk about thingsto people, where you just have
(44:26):
conversations, or I'm doing thisthing, I'm doing this project.
Think of this podcast, Istarted it for a purpose, which
is to get ones on the board todo a history podcast that I want
to do to showcase the researchfor my PhD and the background
research for my book.
Um, and then you know, now I'mI talk to people and they have
(44:46):
interesting stories, and I'mlike, you know, podcast and just
kind of organically evolves,and it's not so much work.
But the more that you censoryourself and the more that you
close yourself off, the harderit is to be able to do that.
The more, you know, like I'mI'm finding such freedom and
joy.
It's some of those things thatyou were talking about about
(45:08):
going to bookstores and the waythat you've got your books in
your bookstores.
I I haven't been able to dothat.
That's still something that Ihave not been able to kind of
like, oh, I can do that.
So I've still got some internalresistance to certain things,
but I'm building that muscle,I'm building that resilience.
(45:29):
So it's like you're fightingyourself and then eventually.
Koraly Dimitriadis (45:32):
Well, that's great.
I mean, I would say that it'slike when we come into the
industry, it's like we getindoctrinated to think in a
certain way, and we have tounlearn that thinking.
Yes, you know, I agree.
And it's really great seeinglike your journey, because you
know, when I met you, you werelike just traditionally
published and that, and then youtold me you're gonna open your
own press, and you know, and andyou know, you said that I'd
(45:56):
inspired you.
You know, actually a lot ofpeople say, Oh, you inspire me
to do this.
It's a lot of pressuresometimes.
No, but the thing is, you'renot you're not doing that for
anyone but yourself.
Amra Pajalic (46:07):
And what I have seen with you that is the bigger
inspiration is this just thejoy of creation.
Yeah.
Because you know, if we go backto success, what is success?
Yes, is success money?
Is it earning an income fromyour writing?
Is success producing what youbelieve in and just putting it
out there?
(46:27):
What is success?
And I think for both of us, weare arriving at that point where
success is being true toourselves, creating, and just
putting it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (46:38):
Yeah, and also like a writer once told me
something which has always stuckwith me, which is separating
your money from your art.
It gives you so much morecreative control.
And I think when they saysuccess is about, well, artistic
success is supposed to be whenyou're making your money from
your art.
But I think that needs to beshifted a bit.
(46:59):
It should be you're successfulwhen you can make the art you
want to make and you're making aliving at the same time.
Now, where that living iscoming from could be coming from
an investment property, couldbe coming from, you know, like
teaching a couple of days aweek.
But as long as you're doingwhat you what you want to do
creatively, yes, who cares whereyour money comes from?
Amra Pajalic (47:22):
Yes, you know and I agree with that because I'm a
teacher and that is the livingpart of it.
And then that creates thatspace where I don't have to rely
on on trying to make my art umcommercially viable.
Yes.
My art can just be what itneeds to be.
Yes.
(47:42):
Yeah.
Oh, wonderful.
Well, thank you so much.
I've been wanting to talk toyou, just get some of your
perspective and get yourlessons.
Um, just everything that yousaid, I I feel like I am slowly
evolving.
Um, but you you have been likethis this champion um who has
(48:03):
done it all herself and who hasjust blazed this path.
So I want to thank you forthat.
But I just want to thank youalso just for being so generous
where where we have beenreaching out to each other and
sharing and just helping.
Um, and it's just so wonderfulto have someone with that.
Um, and even we're we're doingsome events together, aren't we?
(48:24):
We're doing oh yes, AustraliaBook Fair.
Yeah, the Australian Book Fair,we're gonna be there together.
I'm gonna be together inJanuary and and uh we're looking
maybe at doing clumes togetheror maybe yes.
What we need to see.
So um I'm really excited aboutthose opportunities too, because
that's something else that I'vewanted to do that I've been
really struggling with.
So I'm gonna have you to usherme into it.
Koraly Dimitriadis (48:46):
Yeah, no, it's great.
The the book fair world is isdefinitely something that um
self-made authors shoulddefinitely tap into.
Yeah, because you're definitelyselling directly to the um the
consumer rather than relying onlike a book festival or a
bookshop to sell your work.
And it can also be reallyrewarding because you're
actually having conversationswith the people that are buying
(49:08):
your work.
Yes, you know, and that issomething that we don't get when
we're selling, you know, at aat a bookshop, for example, you
know.
So yeah, no, it's definitelysomething that I I enjoy doing.
Amra Pajalic (49:21):
I love how you um are able to like spin everything
in a positive way.
Because like for me, I'm like,oh my gosh, being out there and
talking to people.
Koraly Dimitriadis (49:29):
Well, it's so interesting because a lot of
the time with these book fairsand that, you get authors that
are like, you know, coming up tome and they're like, oh, you
know, I'm not selling, you know.
And and I just say that's okay,because you know, you're even
like if you're not selling, thefact that you're there and that
people they might walk past yourtable and see your book and
(49:50):
they might pick it up and notbuy it, right?
But they might pick it up andbuy it the next time they see
it, you know.
And so every time people alwayscome to me complaining, I'm
like, it's okay.
The fact that you're here andthat you're marketing your work
and you're talking to youraudience, your potential
audience, that is still, it'sstill marketing.
(50:11):
Like people pay money forpublicists and all that, but
you're there doing thegroundwork.
I see myself as a grassroots umwriter.
I don't see myself as like, oh,you know, I've made it and I'm
too snobby to go to this orthat.
Or I don't see myself that way.
And I know the establishmentmight go, oh, well, look at her.
(50:31):
She has to go to a book fair tosell her books.
And I and I just say, well,who, why do you care so much how
I'm selling my book?
Are you selling books?
How much do you pay to sellyour books?
How much do you pay yourpublicists to sell your books?
Yeah, you know, and you'refrowning at me, you know.
And even I just want to say onething about the Bendigo Writers
(50:52):
Festival.
And I know that, you know, alot of people actually, you
know, pulled out of thatfestival, and that's fine.
They have their every right todo that.
But the idea that the ones thatdidn't pull out pull out are
somehow bad writers, I don'tagree with that.
And I know that some of thewriters that didn't pull out
were were crucified online, andand I don't agree with that at
(51:13):
all.
I I I I support writers inwhatever they want to do, and to
actually get a spot at theBendigo Writers Festival, I've
never been invited.
You know, so to actually havethat spot is is a is a privilege
in itself.
To be able to pull out is alsoa privilege as well.
(51:34):
So I don't agree with any kindof conduct that crucifies people
that that didn't that didn'tthat didn't pull out as their
choice, yeah, you know, to to dothat or not.
And I just I just want to addthat, you know, I I don't frown
at people whether they pulledout or not pulled out, you know.
And that's what artisticfreedom is.
Amra Pajalic (51:53):
That's what it should be.
You stand, you know, you haveto make decisions for yourself,
yes, in terms of what is rightfor you at that time, and it's
not for other people to sitthere questioning, deciding,
judging.
Um or blacklisting, which iswhat happens.
Yeah, and I think um socialmedia is not a place for nuance.
Koraly Dimitriadis (52:12):
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (52:12):
You know, it it is something that benefits us and
we enjoy it, and we know um thatwe, you know, it works in in um
terms of promoting our work andpromoting ourselves, but um
there's no nuance, yeah, andthere is a lot of um nastiness.
Koraly Dimitriadis (52:31):
Yeah, there can be yeah, and I've
experienced a lot of nastinesson online in my career, and I
and I didn't deserve it.
Yeah, you know, and neither doone deserves.
No one deserves that, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (52:42):
Yeah, um, but it does, it does like I do know
what you're because I do thinkabout what I'm going to weed
into, what I'm going to post.
Yes.
Um, and then for me there'sanother layer which is as a
teacher.
Yes, of for sure for youngadults.
So there's there's that part ofit also, but um, you know, it
is also a joy.
Yes.
Uh I do like social media and Ido like like I do connect with
(53:05):
people on social media andcreate friendships and you know
collaborations.
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (53:10):
So yeah, that's I I I think I think that
being an artist and a writer isis a very hard profession.
Yes.
I've worked in IT and I've goneand I've I've worked and I've
got my paycheck and I've gonehome.
And no, it's not hard.
This is hard.
Amra Pajalic (53:25):
Yeah.
Koraly Dimitriadis (53:25):
This is hard.
It's very hard on so manydifferent levels to be an
artist.
And I, you know, I hope peopleunderstand that that it is very
difficult.
It's a very difficultprofession.
And actually, a writer I admireonce said to me, if it was
easy, everyone would do it.
And so when I'm having thosehard days, I've always think
that, well, if it was easy,everyone would do it, and I'm
(53:46):
doing it, and I should be proudof the fact that I'm doing it.
Amra Pajalic (53:50):
Well, that's for me, my success has been that I
have achieved longevity.
That's 20 years of, you know,trying, actually, 28 years
probably, of, you know,publishing and and working at
it, I'm still doing it.
But having said that, I have nochoice.
It is my oxygen.
Yes, me too, yeah.
Yeah, and so that's the otherthing about being an artist.
(54:12):
You can't not do it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much,Coralie.
Um, I hope you've enjoyed thischat and you can connect with
Coralie online and check out herwork.
She is amazing.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for tuning intoAmra's armchair anecdotes.
(54:32):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
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