August 4, 2025 • 29 mins
Lee Agius shares her journey from sculptor to art therapist, revealing how chance encounters and supportive mentors helped her discover her creative path despite early educational challenges as a neurodivergent learner.
• Becoming a sculptor after a chance comment about her expressive hands during her travels in her early 20s
• Art school experience highlighting the difference between creativity for expression versus creativity for external validation
• Late diagnosis of dyslexia and ADHD providing clarity and compassion for her younger self
• Creating Artful Warrior Mental Health Therapy Service to provide accessible art therapy
• Balancing multiple roles and projects as a business owner with neurodivergent needs
• Navigating perimenopause and menopause challenges while questioning why women aren't more prepared
• Finding clarity and self-acceptance in post-menopausal life
• The transformative power of arts allowing her to progress from being unable to write essays to earning a master's degree with 98%
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Episode Transcript
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Amra Pajalic (00:01):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer,teacher and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing life
and lessons learned, sharingwisdom from my armchair to yours
.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts and my how-to guides atamrapajalic.
com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I have Leigh Adjus.
She's a registered art therapist, a creative facilitator, visual
(00:42):
artist and yoga teacher whobrings a holistic,
heart-centered approach tomental health and well-being.
She's based in Deer Park andoffers one-on-one art therapy
sessions, facilitates expressivearts workshops that help people
reconnect with themselvesthrough creativity, movement and
mindfulness.
With a practice grounded inboth the therapeutic and
(01:04):
creative arts, leigh has workedwith community organisations,
councils, schools and healthservices to deliver meaningful,
accessible programs that fosterresilience, connection and
self-kindness.
Welcome, leigh.
Thank you, ambra, thank you.
So thank you for coming on Now.
We actually know each otherbecause we are both artists in
(01:24):
residence at the Hunt Club, andso we've had the opportunity to
get to know each other andsupport each other.
But your life has alwaysinvolved arts in some way.
So can you tell me how youbegan as a sculptor and you
evolved into an art therapistand community artist.
Lee Agius (01:42):
Art therapist and community artist.
Okay, well, first of all, thankyou for having me here today,
amra.
My journey I guess I need tostart with when I left school
early.
I didn't know what I would begood at and what my passion was,
what my calling was in life,and I was quite impressionable
(02:03):
when I was about 21,.
I went travelling and I met aguy and we hung out for a while
and he said to me he said yourhands are very expressive, have
you ever thought about doingsculpture?
And it was almost as if he likemetaphorically, it's almost as
(02:24):
if he opened a door for me toseeing myself in that lens,
because nobody had ever saidthat to me before and I was kind
of like oh wow, I've neverconsidered that.
It sort of landed in my body,but I wasn't quite sure where
(02:44):
that was going to go.
I was very young.
I was just traveling aroundvery carefree.
About a year later I foundmyself on a community in
northern New South Wales livingwith.
In the community there wereother artists old enough to be
my parents and they really tookme under their wing.
And there was a sculptor andhis wife and they asked me to
(03:07):
come to their property to learnto sculpt.
At this stage it was very muchabout carving, and so I began
doing some sculpture with themand that really opened up my
passion for it, I guess.
So I decided to come back toMelbourne and I applied for
(03:29):
Swinburne TAFE and then I wentto TAFE for two years and then I
applied for RMIT Sculpture andso that was great.
I successfully got intosculpture degree and then at the
third year sculpture degree andthen at the third year one of
my peers again kind of samestory she she said she came up
(03:51):
to me and she said um, rmit arehaving an open day and they're
showing, showcasing creativearts therapy, and I thought of
you and I thought you wouldprobably be good at that.
Again, I'd never heard ofcreative arts therapy.
It was like it was like anotherperson kind of saying hey, lee,
there's a kind of these openthis door and take a path down
(04:14):
here and see where that mightland you.
So I'm very grateful to thosepeople.
You know.
They kind of came into my life,not for a very long time, but
kind of they were like my littleguides.
Amra Pajalic (04:26):
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's interesting how
people see something in you.
Like this whole podcast startedin a sense out of peer pressure
, where all my friends have beentelling me you should start a
podcast.
And then things just sort ofstart percolating in the back of
your mind and you're likeshould I, what could I do?
(04:46):
And then suddenly you findyourself on this path and you
know it kind of wasn't your idea, like people, but because they
saw that in you, you startthinking, oh, there's something
there.
Lee Agius (04:57):
Yeah, there's such power in that there is such
power in that there's such powerin being seen, I think, from an
objective point of view and,yeah, it's very interesting.
Amra Pajalic (05:10):
And, like I just said, you know things that we
didn't even think about.
Lee Agius (05:16):
Take us a while to sort of think we're worthy of
that we should try that,absolutely, yeah, and I think it
really does come down toself-worth as well.
Yeah, yeah, that's somethingthat I think we both battle with
.
Yeah, yeah, and I think itreally does come down to
self-worth as well.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:26):
Yeah, that's something I think we both battle
with that a bit.
Lee Agius (05:29):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:31):
So how has your understanding of creativity
changed over time?
Lee Agius (05:34):
A lot, immensely, I guess.
As a young person I didn'trecognise myself as creative,
but when I reflect back, I thinkbeing able to express myself
creatively was very important.
When I went to art school Ithought that in order to be
creative I had to identify as anartist.
(05:55):
That came with a few challengesfor me, because I just wanted
to use art to feel good and toexpress myself and to develop as
a person, but at the same timeI felt like it was being fine
art and you get critiqued a lot.
(06:16):
There is a lot of judgment infine art and so I got a bit dis.
I wasn't enjoying myself somuch.
I finished my degree and then,when I did my Masters in
Creative Arts Therapy, I did mythesis on where does my
creativity lay in my everydaylife.
(06:37):
Because I really wanted to,because everybody is innately
creative and the way that we arecreative is in all sorts of
ways, and so that was a greatbig.
It changed my whole perceptionfor the better.
Amra Pajalic (06:55):
There's this thing about either you are creative
or you do it for some aim or forpayment or for recognition, and
there's not enough of that.
For some aim or for payment orfor recognition, and there's not
enough of that.
We just sometimes do creativethings for ourselves.
Yeah, like there are all thesethings that I'm doing as part of
(07:17):
all of my writing life that Ijust find so much fun, yeah, and
that's what's lost a little bitthat sense of fun and that
sense of play.
And then also that thing ofit's not going to be great the
first time you do things.
It's not great, but you alwaysfeel like it has to be perfect
and it has to be this amazingthing.
Lee Agius (07:36):
Yeah, unfortunately, somewhere along our growth path,
we think that in order to becreative, we have to be creating
something amazing and fantasticevery time.
I mean, for me, creativity isall about problem solving.
You're just continuouslyproblem solving and skill
(07:59):
building.
Amra Pajalic (08:00):
Yeah, and also just exercising and processing.
Like a lot of my writing is meprocessing things and just
having a way of getting throughit, yeah.
So what role does yourneurodivergence play in shaping
the way you hold space forothers?
Lee Agius (08:18):
I guess because I was late in age, diagnosed so when
I was a kid I'm dyslexic.
But when I was a kid it washard for me to get through the
curriculum, so I didn't finishschool in time.
I didn't finish school, I leftin year 10.
(08:39):
I couldn't do year 11 and 12.
Do year 11 and 12.
And I guess once I was in my20s and I thought, oh, something
, I bet I'm dyslexic, Somethinghas to be going on.
I didn't actually get myselftested until I was 50 or maybe
52.
(09:00):
And when I went to get myselftested I just was because I was
just like this is ridiculous.
How many times do I have to tryto write these words?
I just can't remember how towrite them and amongst other
things.
But when I went for theassessment they said it came
back that I have ADHD as well.
So that was mind-blowing for me.
(09:22):
So I actually don't reallyidentify so much with the ADHD
as I do with the dyslexia andmaybe there is lots of
crossovers with them as well.
But I certainly think that myneurodivergent self can really
(09:43):
hold space for other peoplebecause I'm neuroreferming.
I respect all people, thateverybody's different, that no
two people are the same, even ifthey have the same challenges
and diagnosis, and that I thinkI have a very felt sense of
understanding of what peoplemight go through when they're
(10:03):
trying to be, you know, a squarepeg, trying to fit into a round
hole, you know.
Amra Pajalic (10:10):
How has that diagnosis?
Because I've been reading a lotabout this, a lot about a
solution of women who aregetting diagnosis of ADHD.
How has that helped or not?
Like you know, with youridentity?
What has that actualconfirmation done?
Lee Agius (10:25):
look.
Initially it made me feel like,wow, how did people miss that?
I, I guess I went to primaryschool in the 70s.
I went to three differentprimary schools and I grew up
with a single parent.
She's also neurodivergent, soshe wouldn't and she didn't have
the opportunity to haveeducation herself.
She was pulled out of school at14 to go and work.
(10:47):
I guess that's what they did asfirst migrants coming to
Australia.
And so when I at first I feltlike how did nobody notice?
Why was mum called up to theschool all the time?
And I was always.
She doesn't pay attention.
She's easily distracted.
Have you checked her eyes?
(11:07):
Have you checked her eyes?
We need to put her up in thefront of the classroom.
When I got to high school, I dida lot of high masking In order
to do that.
I misbehaved, and that was theonly way.
To misbehave was easier thanfeeling the shame.
(11:32):
Yeah, so, because there was alot of words that I couldn't
sound out and so I couldn'tpronounce them properly.
So I was scared that I wasgoing to spit wrong or not
understand the whole of what Iwas being asked.
So when I got the diagnosis,initially I felt, wow, how can
(11:54):
people miss that.
But at the same time it wasalso like all of a sudden it was
like a computer download.
It was like all these thingscame into my mind and all the
dots got joined.
It was like, oh, no wonder, nowonder I actually could see
myself in a lens of compassion.
I actually went through a bitof a phase where I was really
(12:17):
working on the inner child.
Amra Pajalic (12:20):
Yeah, and healing, yes, I think.
I mean I'm a teacher and so Isee that side of it also.
Where I'm dealing with, youknow, I don't merge in children
children with learning needs andindividual needs and in a high
school setting.
Only those who are highfunctioning can be in a high
school setting, because it isuntenable.
(12:44):
You know the sensory overloadand all of that, and then even
the class sizes.
You know where it's 25, 26students and then you've got an
individual needs student and Iknow, as a teacher, the years
that I have a student that ishigh needs, the pressure in
terms of trying to support, yeah, and I've heard so many stories
(13:06):
of people who our generationwere overlooked, were made to
feel like the problem becausethe school system is not set up.
No, for the round, yes, in thesquare, yes, it is not set up
for the round in the square, itis just not.
And so if they can't make youfit, they kind of, you know,
brush you out, and that's onething that I struggle with the
(13:31):
longer that I'm a teacher.
Yeah, yeah it's difficult.
Lee Agius (13:35):
It's hard to accommodate for everyone.
I understand.
Amra Pajalic (13:38):
Well, and it's not set up and you know like it
does need to be the ratio ofmuch less students, like in the.
You know like there's this pushnow to integrate students with
individual needs in a schoolsetting, but you know we're in a
school with 1,600 children.
Lee Agius (13:57):
Yeah, that's right.
Amra Pajalic (13:58):
And 200 staff.
Now you've got ADHD.
That's a lot of stuff going on.
It's not only those that are onmedication and that the
medication works.
And I've seen the kids.
You know there was one student.
The medication ran out anddidn't take it for that day, and
just the things that he did andafterwards you're having these
(14:21):
conversations.
It's just blankness where hecan't recognize cause and
consequence because the brain isjust bad impulses and as
someone who has a little bit ofbipolar in my you know
biological chemistry Iunderstand the bad impulse side.
Yes, you know where it's likethe impulse comes over you and
(14:43):
you know, yeah, so it is verylike now there is more testing
and stuff and there is moresupport, but there's just not
enough funding still.
There is just not enoughfunding being provided.
Lee Agius (14:57):
It's good to see that there is a lot more awareness
now for young people, which isgreat.
Yes, in our generation it wasnot even I don't feel like it
was talked about or evenrecognised.
Amra Pajalic (15:11):
Yeah, and still in some communities, because we
are in an area which is in a lotof newly arrived migrants,
there are a lot of communitiesthat still view this with shame.
They refuse to get childrentested, they refuse to provide,
you know, to allow them to sortof access support, because it's
about the shame, yeah, and sothey send their.
They won't send their childrento school or settle cater for
(15:32):
them.
They have to go to the regularschool, yeah, and that creates a
lot of issues.
Lee Agius (15:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (15:38):
Yeah, so what inspired you to start your own
practice?
Artful Warrior Mental HealthTherapy Service.
Lee Agius (15:46):
I think after working in quite a variety of settings
and then taking on someleadership roles.
So I coordinated an art programfor a mental health organisation
and then I went on to manage aprogram for another kind of
grassroots organisation and theNDIS, which is the National
(16:11):
Insurance Disability Scheme,started to roll in and a lot of
services were, I guess, startingto feel the pressure of whether
or not they're going to stillexist within this model and I
felt like the service that I wasworking in was I wasn't.
I was unsure whether it wouldbe able to make the transition,
(16:34):
and because I was in so manyleadership roles, I kind of
thought I think I can do thismyself.
I think I can maybe try to workthis out for myself.
I did that very gradually.
I got a lot of mentoring and Istarted my business by still
working for an organisation twodays a week and so I could just
(16:56):
slowly build where I needed tobe and it's been a huge learning
curve.
You know, the first couple ofyears I kind of just broke, even
really with money, but Ihaven't really looked back since
.
I've decided to grow my ownbusiness.
Amra Pajalic (17:17):
Yeah, something I admire in terms of the way that
you're able to do all thesedifferent things and provide
different, because you deliveryoga programs at community
centres, you work with clientsone-on-one, you do workshops
with community organisations, soit's just that lovely thing of
all the different skills and allof the stimulation that you get
(17:39):
.
Yeah, there's a lot of hustle.
Lee Agius (17:42):
There's a lot of hustle.
I'm a side hustler, for sure,but I think it suits my
personality.
It suits my neurodivergence,because I want to juggle more
than one thing at the same time,and I want to.
I've got a lot of ideas.
You know, sometimes it's hardto see through the whole idea
and it does become a bit boringfor me at the end, but I love
(18:05):
variety.
I do remember, even before Ileft to go travelling and I was
about 20 years old, I rememberlooking out my office window and
thinking I can't do this everyday.
I'm not going to be able to dothis nine to five every day.
I can't.
I just don't.
It doesn't suit me.
So I do feel quite gratefulthat somehow I have parved this
(18:32):
lifestyle for myself as well.
Amra Pajalic (18:34):
Yeah, I can relate to that because I'm the same
where I need lots of things aswell.
Yeah, I can relate to thatbecause you know I'm the same
where I need lots of thingsgoing on yeah.
So this is something I wouldlike to aspire to, but I've got
other needs that haunt me inplace.
So running a practice involvesa whole other set of skills, and
we've talked about this a lotadmin, marketing, compliance.
So how did you learn to wear?
Lee Agius (18:55):
all these?
How did I learn?
I still don't know how I'vereally worked it out, because
some things are so confusing,like especially all the
processing stuff, like reading aparagraph and trying to break
that down what is actually.
They're asking me, trying notto get overwhelmed by all the
(19:18):
different parts of you know justyeah, you do wear a lot of hats
, I guess at the beginning therewere times where I felt like I
was burning out.
Amra Pajalic (19:32):
Yeah.
Lee Agius (19:32):
And I think that that's because I just didn't
leave myself enough space inbetween for things like admin
for doing you know my invoices,you know you've got to be HR and
you've got to be you knowpayrolls and you know front of
desk and then the facilitator.
And so I have learnt to makemore room for myself in between
(19:53):
things and to also recognisethat saying yes, seeing
opportunities, is great, but becareful what you say yes to,
because that's the easy bit.
Amra Pajalic (20:03):
Yeah, as someone who just did a job where because
I'm really bad at rememberinghow much they said they were
going to pay me Somehow Iinflate it in my head and start
doing a job, I'm like it's okay,I'm getting paid this much
money.
And then I go to invoice and Ilook back at the contract and
I'm like it wasn't that muchmoney.
(20:27):
But you don't know sometimeswhat you're getting yourself
into until you're too far intoit and then you're like not
going to do that one again.
So there are some things I'velearned like I'm not interested
in and there is no money in theworld that can entice me to do
those things.
Lee Agius (20:44):
Yeah, and I guess you live and learn, don't you?
You do you learn from doing, Ithink.
And yeah, look, sometimes whenI'm doing the admin or I've got
to fulfil requirements for theNDIS, I do feel there is a point
where I feel very overwhelmed.
But somehow, because I'mdetermined and it really is
(21:08):
about that, how much will I giveup?
Because I could give up, yeah,but I won't, because I want to
prove that to myself.
Amra Pajalic (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the thing.
And there is that pushingthrough, like that is the thing
about arts and small business.
You've got to push throughbecause the fun stuff is easy,
yeah, it's the not so fun stuffand you've still got to push
through.
And the other thing ismaintaining those professional
commitments.
You've made the commitment,your name is on the line.
(21:39):
You need to see it through,yeah, and then you just need to
learn to say no, yes, after that, yeah, exactly Because they're
like thank you, but no, yes.
Lee Agius (21:48):
I guess you get to a point where you know
opportunities are great, yeah,it's okay.
If you say no to an opportunity, another one will pop up.
Yes, I think sometimes at thebeginning for me it was like oh,
if I say no, you know, theremight not be another opportunity
.
Amra Pajalic (22:02):
Yeah, and that's what I'm learning to deal with.
And for me it's differentbecause I've still got the day
job, so everything I do is rainy, but there is an element of
flattery when you get asked andso.
But there is an element offlattery when you get asked, so
I would get sucked into that alot where my ego would lead and
not my common sense.
So I'm learning to balance thatmore.
Where it's like my ego issatisfied, we don't need to feed
(22:24):
it anymore.
Common sense needs to rule now.
Yeah, yeah.
So I wanted to change a littlebit and talk about the pros and
cons as you transitioned intomidlife.
Lee Agius (22:40):
Yeah, so initially through, I guess, midlife, I
think, when I was perimenopausalit was not a really enjoyable
time for me.
I felt like the anxiety hormonewas really kicking in.
(23:00):
I also didn't understand atfirst what was happening,
because all of a sudden I feltso teary and so tired and it's
so hard to tell what was goingon because I was so full.
My child was still at schooland I was running around after
him with his sporting events.
I was doing volunteer work, Iwas working, I was trying to
(23:23):
start my business.
Then I thought oh, you know,maybe I'll feel better if I do a
yoga degree or a yoga teachertraining.
But you know, it was great, butit just added more to my pain.
So there was so many.
I was, it was, it was difficult.
And then I realized why?
Why are women not talking aboutthis?
Amra Pajalic (23:43):
And why do we not know about this before it
happens?
Yeah, instead we.
Now there's a little bit moreconversations happening, and
this is what I'm wanting tofocus on also.
Yes, yeah, but yeah, there'sjust not enough.
We're in the middle of it andwe're struggling and we battle
through it.
Lee Agius (23:59):
Yeah, yes, I became quite open about wanting to
discuss it with other women andjust sharing experiences.
And then I started seeing anaturopath and I was just trying
to hormonally get myself backinto just feeling okay, it's
such an interesting time of yourlife because so many things are
(24:22):
changing.
You know your body shape canstart to change as well.
You don't know when you'regoing to get a menstrual cycle.
You know there's a lot of stuffgoing on.
There are people that you loved.
You almost want to like.
You know they're annoying orsomething.
Yes, the tolerance, thepatience.
Amra Pajalic (24:44):
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, and all those new things.
Like I never suffered fromanxiety until.
Lee Agius (24:48):
Perinatal Palsy.
Yes, you're right.
But now that I'm, I'mpost-menopause now, yeah, and
I'm feeling really great.
Yes, I feel like everything hassort of simultaneously,
everything has sort of landed abit.
Now I don't have the hormonalimbalances and I'm also with my
(25:11):
work.
I found a little bit of a wayto keep myself a bit more
balanced yes and I'm, and I seemyself in a much more
compassionate lens.
I've also had a long time towork myself out, yes, so to know
what I am like as a person andknow what kind of might serve me
best.
Amra Pajalic (25:31):
I think that clarity is the joy of it.
It is the clarity that comeswith it.
So what is your motto in lifeand how do you think it's served
you in your transitions andpivots?
Lee Agius (25:43):
I think I've been lucky that I've always had a
fairly positive constitution.
I think I'm very resilient.
I think those things help.
I think I always look for thesilver lining when things are
negative or things are happeningin workplaces or whatever.
I try not to get sucked up intothe doom and the gloom.
But I look for for what can I?
(26:06):
Nothing stays the same,everything changes, and that we
can kind of.
So I do look for the silverlining.
I do think that it's importantto just try to stay positive.
Yeah, if you can if you can,like it's okay's okay.
(26:26):
Like I'm not always positive,but I acknowledge, okay, I'm
feeling a bit negative right now.
What do I?
What is it that I need?
We, you know, just let thisride this out, but, you know,
aim to get back onto thepositive trail yes, so I just
wanted to ask any last words onthe power of the arts for
(26:48):
wellbeing and joy.
Well, the arts have been soinstrumental for me to even be
here today.
Like, I am so grateful that Ifound that path, because I
wasn't a kid that people weresaying, oh you're such a you
know, have you ever thoughtabout drawing, or do you want to
take this vocation down?
This, you know.
(27:08):
Have you ever thought aboutdrawing or do you want to take
this vocation down?
This, you know I had.
I left school early because Icould not do the exams in year
11.
I knew that.
So the arts have helped me to.
You know, I left school.
I did not know how to write anessay, but because of the arts
because when I was involved inwith my lecturers would always
pull me up but my artwork theycould see that I understood the
(27:33):
conceptual framework that theywere asking me to work in, that
I could do that and I actuallygot really great results.
I had to keep.
I was lucky enough that I livedin lots of share houses with
really smart people, so I'd askthem to help me not do my essays
, of course, but just help me to.
(27:53):
I just wanted to learn, yes.
So I remember still having alittle book of lots of words
that I was trying to learn andtrying to write.
And even when I went to do mymaster's, you know I was put
together with a really greatsupervisor, so I was able.
(28:13):
So it took me much longer thanprobably everybody else, but I
ended up.
You know, from a person whodoesn't know how to write an
essay at school to leaving amaster's with a 98% was pretty
impressive.
For me, that is impressive.
It was mind-blowing actually.
So there is room for growthwithin the right context.
(28:33):
Maybe if I hadn't you know whatother course was I going to do
that might have allowed me togradually learn to write, to
understand because I can read,but just to process things, yeah
.
So I'm very grateful for thearts to have afforded me where I
am now.
Amra Pajalic (28:54):
Yeah, and it makes me feel a bit sad as a high
school teacher when we don't putenough priority on the arts and
there's not enoughopportunities for the arts, they
kind of get more and moresidelined.
Do you and the arts teachers?
They really see the strengthfor kids?
Yeah, where there are kids whoare getting the A's in that and
that's their place forconfidence, to build their
(29:14):
self-worth.
Yeah Well, thank you so muchfor coming on my podcast and for
being so generous and fortalking about these things that
you know there's a lot of peoplethat will be able to relate to
the neurodiversions andunderstanding themselves.
So, thank you, you're welcome.
You're welcome, amra.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
(29:37):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories and inspiration From my
armchair to yours.
Remember, every story beginswith a single word.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer,teacher and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing life
and lessons learned, sharingwisdom from my armchair to yours
.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts and my how-to guides atamrapajalic.
com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I have Leigh Adjus.
She's a registered art therapist, a creative facilitator, visual
(00:42):
artist and yoga teacher whobrings a holistic,
heart-centered approach tomental health and well-being.
She's based in Deer Park andoffers one-on-one art therapy
sessions, facilitates expressivearts workshops that help people
reconnect with themselvesthrough creativity, movement and
mindfulness.
With a practice grounded inboth the therapeutic and
(01:04):
creative arts, leigh has workedwith community organisations,
councils, schools and healthservices to deliver meaningful,
accessible programs that fosterresilience, connection and
self-kindness.
Welcome, leigh.
Thank you, ambra, thank you.
So thank you for coming on Now.
We actually know each otherbecause we are both artists in
(01:24):
residence at the Hunt Club, andso we've had the opportunity to
get to know each other andsupport each other.
But your life has alwaysinvolved arts in some way.
So can you tell me how youbegan as a sculptor and you
evolved into an art therapistand community artist.
Lee Agius (01:42):
Art therapist and community artist.
Okay, well, first of all, thankyou for having me here today,
amra.
My journey I guess I need tostart with when I left school
early.
I didn't know what I would begood at and what my passion was,
what my calling was in life,and I was quite impressionable
(02:03):
when I was about 21,.
I went travelling and I met aguy and we hung out for a while
and he said to me he said yourhands are very expressive, have
you ever thought about doingsculpture?
And it was almost as if he likemetaphorically, it's almost as
(02:24):
if he opened a door for me toseeing myself in that lens,
because nobody had ever saidthat to me before and I was kind
of like oh wow, I've neverconsidered that.
It sort of landed in my body,but I wasn't quite sure where
(02:44):
that was going to go.
I was very young.
I was just traveling aroundvery carefree.
About a year later I foundmyself on a community in
northern New South Wales livingwith.
In the community there wereother artists old enough to be
my parents and they really tookme under their wing.
And there was a sculptor andhis wife and they asked me to
(03:07):
come to their property to learnto sculpt.
At this stage it was very muchabout carving, and so I began
doing some sculpture with themand that really opened up my
passion for it, I guess.
So I decided to come back toMelbourne and I applied for
(03:29):
Swinburne TAFE and then I wentto TAFE for two years and then I
applied for RMIT Sculpture andso that was great.
I successfully got intosculpture degree and then at the
third year sculpture degree andthen at the third year one of
my peers again kind of samestory she she said she came up
(03:51):
to me and she said um, rmit arehaving an open day and they're
showing, showcasing creativearts therapy, and I thought of
you and I thought you wouldprobably be good at that.
Again, I'd never heard ofcreative arts therapy.
It was like it was like anotherperson kind of saying hey, lee,
there's a kind of these openthis door and take a path down
(04:14):
here and see where that mightland you.
So I'm very grateful to thosepeople.
You know.
They kind of came into my life,not for a very long time, but
kind of they were like my littleguides.
Amra Pajalic (04:26):
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's interesting how
people see something in you.
Like this whole podcast startedin a sense out of peer pressure
, where all my friends have beentelling me you should start a
podcast.
And then things just sort ofstart percolating in the back of
your mind and you're likeshould I, what could I do?
(04:46):
And then suddenly you findyourself on this path and you
know it kind of wasn't your idea, like people, but because they
saw that in you, you startthinking, oh, there's something
there.
Lee Agius (04:57):
Yeah, there's such power in that there is such
power in that there's such powerin being seen, I think, from an
objective point of view and,yeah, it's very interesting.
Amra Pajalic (05:10):
And, like I just said, you know things that we
didn't even think about.
Lee Agius (05:16):
Take us a while to sort of think we're worthy of
that we should try that,absolutely, yeah, and I think it
really does come down toself-worth as well.
Yeah, yeah, that's somethingthat I think we both battle with
.
Yeah, yeah, and I think itreally does come down to
self-worth as well.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:26):
Yeah, that's something I think we both battle
with that a bit.
Lee Agius (05:29):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (05:31):
So how has your understanding of creativity
changed over time?
Lee Agius (05:34):
A lot, immensely, I guess.
As a young person I didn'trecognise myself as creative,
but when I reflect back, I thinkbeing able to express myself
creatively was very important.
When I went to art school Ithought that in order to be
creative I had to identify as anartist.
(05:55):
That came with a few challengesfor me, because I just wanted
to use art to feel good and toexpress myself and to develop as
a person, but at the same timeI felt like it was being fine
art and you get critiqued a lot.
(06:16):
There is a lot of judgment infine art and so I got a bit dis.
I wasn't enjoying myself somuch.
I finished my degree and then,when I did my Masters in
Creative Arts Therapy, I did mythesis on where does my
creativity lay in my everydaylife.
(06:37):
Because I really wanted to,because everybody is innately
creative and the way that we arecreative is in all sorts of
ways, and so that was a greatbig.
It changed my whole perceptionfor the better.
Amra Pajalic (06:55):
There's this thing about either you are creative
or you do it for some aim or forpayment or for recognition, and
there's not enough of that.
For some aim or for payment orfor recognition, and there's not
enough of that.
We just sometimes do creativethings for ourselves.
Yeah, like there are all thesethings that I'm doing as part of
(07:17):
all of my writing life that Ijust find so much fun, yeah, and
that's what's lost a little bitthat sense of fun and that
sense of play.
And then also that thing ofit's not going to be great the
first time you do things.
It's not great, but you alwaysfeel like it has to be perfect
and it has to be this amazingthing.
Lee Agius (07:36):
Yeah, unfortunately, somewhere along our growth path,
we think that in order to becreative, we have to be creating
something amazing and fantasticevery time.
I mean, for me, creativity isall about problem solving.
You're just continuouslyproblem solving and skill
(07:59):
building.
Amra Pajalic (08:00):
Yeah, and also just exercising and processing.
Like a lot of my writing is meprocessing things and just
having a way of getting throughit, yeah.
So what role does yourneurodivergence play in shaping
the way you hold space forothers?
Lee Agius (08:18):
I guess because I was late in age, diagnosed so when
I was a kid I'm dyslexic.
But when I was a kid it washard for me to get through the
curriculum, so I didn't finishschool in time.
I didn't finish school, I leftin year 10.
(08:39):
I couldn't do year 11 and 12.
Do year 11 and 12.
And I guess once I was in my20s and I thought, oh, something
, I bet I'm dyslexic, Somethinghas to be going on.
I didn't actually get myselftested until I was 50 or maybe
52.
(09:00):
And when I went to get myselftested I just was because I was
just like this is ridiculous.
How many times do I have to tryto write these words?
I just can't remember how towrite them and amongst other
things.
But when I went for theassessment they said it came
back that I have ADHD as well.
So that was mind-blowing for me.
(09:22):
So I actually don't reallyidentify so much with the ADHD
as I do with the dyslexia andmaybe there is lots of
crossovers with them as well.
But I certainly think that myneurodivergent self can really
(09:43):
hold space for other peoplebecause I'm neuroreferming.
I respect all people, thateverybody's different, that no
two people are the same, even ifthey have the same challenges
and diagnosis, and that I thinkI have a very felt sense of
understanding of what peoplemight go through when they're
(10:03):
trying to be, you know, a squarepeg, trying to fit into a round
hole, you know.
Amra Pajalic (10:10):
How has that diagnosis?
Because I've been reading a lotabout this, a lot about a
solution of women who aregetting diagnosis of ADHD.
How has that helped or not?
Like you know, with youridentity?
What has that actualconfirmation done?
Lee Agius (10:25):
look.
Initially it made me feel like,wow, how did people miss that?
I, I guess I went to primaryschool in the 70s.
I went to three differentprimary schools and I grew up
with a single parent.
She's also neurodivergent, soshe wouldn't and she didn't have
the opportunity to haveeducation herself.
She was pulled out of school at14 to go and work.
(10:47):
I guess that's what they did asfirst migrants coming to
Australia.
And so when I at first I feltlike how did nobody notice?
Why was mum called up to theschool all the time?
And I was always.
She doesn't pay attention.
She's easily distracted.
Have you checked her eyes?
(11:07):
Have you checked her eyes?
We need to put her up in thefront of the classroom.
When I got to high school, I dida lot of high masking In order
to do that.
I misbehaved, and that was theonly way.
To misbehave was easier thanfeeling the shame.
(11:32):
Yeah, so, because there was alot of words that I couldn't
sound out and so I couldn'tpronounce them properly.
So I was scared that I wasgoing to spit wrong or not
understand the whole of what Iwas being asked.
So when I got the diagnosis,initially I felt, wow, how can
(11:54):
people miss that.
But at the same time it wasalso like all of a sudden it was
like a computer download.
It was like all these thingscame into my mind and all the
dots got joined.
It was like, oh, no wonder, nowonder I actually could see
myself in a lens of compassion.
I actually went through a bitof a phase where I was really
(12:17):
working on the inner child.
Amra Pajalic (12:20):
Yeah, and healing, yes, I think.
I mean I'm a teacher and so Isee that side of it also.
Where I'm dealing with, youknow, I don't merge in children
children with learning needs andindividual needs and in a high
school setting.
Only those who are highfunctioning can be in a high
school setting, because it isuntenable.
(12:44):
You know the sensory overloadand all of that, and then even
the class sizes.
You know where it's 25, 26students and then you've got an
individual needs student and Iknow, as a teacher, the years
that I have a student that ishigh needs, the pressure in
terms of trying to support, yeah, and I've heard so many stories
(13:06):
of people who our generationwere overlooked, were made to
feel like the problem becausethe school system is not set up.
No, for the round, yes, in thesquare, yes, it is not set up
for the round in the square, itis just not.
And so if they can't make youfit, they kind of, you know,
brush you out, and that's onething that I struggle with the
(13:31):
longer that I'm a teacher.
Yeah, yeah it's difficult.
Lee Agius (13:35):
It's hard to accommodate for everyone.
I understand.
Amra Pajalic (13:38):
Well, and it's not set up and you know like it
does need to be the ratio ofmuch less students, like in the.
You know like there's this pushnow to integrate students with
individual needs in a schoolsetting, but you know we're in a
school with 1,600 children.
Lee Agius (13:57):
Yeah, that's right.
Amra Pajalic (13:58):
And 200 staff.
Now you've got ADHD.
That's a lot of stuff going on.
It's not only those that are onmedication and that the
medication works.
And I've seen the kids.
You know there was one student.
The medication ran out anddidn't take it for that day, and
just the things that he did andafterwards you're having these
(14:21):
conversations.
It's just blankness where hecan't recognize cause and
consequence because the brain isjust bad impulses and as
someone who has a little bit ofbipolar in my you know
biological chemistry Iunderstand the bad impulse side.
Yes, you know where it's likethe impulse comes over you and
(14:43):
you know, yeah, so it is verylike now there is more testing
and stuff and there is moresupport, but there's just not
enough funding still.
There is just not enoughfunding being provided.
Lee Agius (14:57):
It's good to see that there is a lot more awareness
now for young people, which isgreat.
Yes, in our generation it wasnot even I don't feel like it
was talked about or evenrecognised.
Amra Pajalic (15:11):
Yeah, and still in some communities, because we
are in an area which is in a lotof newly arrived migrants,
there are a lot of communitiesthat still view this with shame.
They refuse to get childrentested, they refuse to provide,
you know, to allow them to sortof access support, because it's
about the shame, yeah, and sothey send their.
They won't send their childrento school or settle cater for
(15:32):
them.
They have to go to the regularschool, yeah, and that creates a
lot of issues.
Lee Agius (15:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (15:38):
Yeah, so what inspired you to start your own
practice?
Artful Warrior Mental HealthTherapy Service.
Lee Agius (15:46):
I think after working in quite a variety of settings
and then taking on someleadership roles.
So I coordinated an art programfor a mental health organisation
and then I went on to manage aprogram for another kind of
grassroots organisation and theNDIS, which is the National
(16:11):
Insurance Disability Scheme,started to roll in and a lot of
services were, I guess, startingto feel the pressure of whether
or not they're going to stillexist within this model and I
felt like the service that I wasworking in was I wasn't.
I was unsure whether it wouldbe able to make the transition,
(16:34):
and because I was in so manyleadership roles, I kind of
thought I think I can do thismyself.
I think I can maybe try to workthis out for myself.
I did that very gradually.
I got a lot of mentoring and Istarted my business by still
working for an organisation twodays a week and so I could just
(16:56):
slowly build where I needed tobe and it's been a huge learning
curve.
You know, the first couple ofyears I kind of just broke, even
really with money, but Ihaven't really looked back since
.
I've decided to grow my ownbusiness.
Amra Pajalic (17:17):
Yeah, something I admire in terms of the way that
you're able to do all thesedifferent things and provide
different, because you deliveryoga programs at community
centres, you work with clientsone-on-one, you do workshops
with community organisations, soit's just that lovely thing of
all the different skills and allof the stimulation that you get
(17:39):
.
Yeah, there's a lot of hustle.
Lee Agius (17:42):
There's a lot of hustle.
I'm a side hustler, for sure,but I think it suits my
personality.
It suits my neurodivergence,because I want to juggle more
than one thing at the same time,and I want to.
I've got a lot of ideas.
You know, sometimes it's hardto see through the whole idea
and it does become a bit boringfor me at the end, but I love
(18:05):
variety.
I do remember, even before Ileft to go travelling and I was
about 20 years old, I rememberlooking out my office window and
thinking I can't do this everyday.
I'm not going to be able to dothis nine to five every day.
I can't.
I just don't.
It doesn't suit me.
So I do feel quite gratefulthat somehow I have parved this
(18:32):
lifestyle for myself as well.
Amra Pajalic (18:34):
Yeah, I can relate to that because I'm the same
where I need lots of things aswell.
Yeah, I can relate to thatbecause you know I'm the same
where I need lots of thingsgoing on yeah.
So this is something I wouldlike to aspire to, but I've got
other needs that haunt me inplace.
So running a practice involvesa whole other set of skills, and
we've talked about this a lotadmin, marketing, compliance.
So how did you learn to wear?
Lee Agius (18:55):
all these?
How did I learn?
I still don't know how I'vereally worked it out, because
some things are so confusing,like especially all the
processing stuff, like reading aparagraph and trying to break
that down what is actually.
They're asking me, trying notto get overwhelmed by all the
(19:18):
different parts of you know justyeah, you do wear a lot of hats
, I guess at the beginning therewere times where I felt like I
was burning out.
Amra Pajalic (19:32):
Yeah.
Lee Agius (19:32):
And I think that that's because I just didn't
leave myself enough space inbetween for things like admin
for doing you know my invoices,you know you've got to be HR and
you've got to be you knowpayrolls and you know front of
desk and then the facilitator.
And so I have learnt to makemore room for myself in between
(19:53):
things and to also recognisethat saying yes, seeing
opportunities, is great, but becareful what you say yes to,
because that's the easy bit.
Amra Pajalic (20:03):
Yeah, as someone who just did a job where because
I'm really bad at rememberinghow much they said they were
going to pay me Somehow Iinflate it in my head and start
doing a job, I'm like it's okay,I'm getting paid this much
money.
And then I go to invoice and Ilook back at the contract and
I'm like it wasn't that muchmoney.
(20:27):
But you don't know sometimeswhat you're getting yourself
into until you're too far intoit and then you're like not
going to do that one again.
So there are some things I'velearned like I'm not interested
in and there is no money in theworld that can entice me to do
those things.
Lee Agius (20:44):
Yeah, and I guess you live and learn, don't you?
You do you learn from doing, Ithink.
And yeah, look, sometimes whenI'm doing the admin or I've got
to fulfil requirements for theNDIS, I do feel there is a point
where I feel very overwhelmed.
But somehow, because I'mdetermined and it really is
(21:08):
about that, how much will I giveup?
Because I could give up, yeah,but I won't, because I want to
prove that to myself.
Amra Pajalic (21:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the thing.
And there is that pushingthrough, like that is the thing
about arts and small business.
You've got to push throughbecause the fun stuff is easy,
yeah, it's the not so fun stuffand you've still got to push
through.
And the other thing ismaintaining those professional
commitments.
You've made the commitment,your name is on the line.
(21:39):
You need to see it through,yeah, and then you just need to
learn to say no, yes, after that, yeah, exactly Because they're
like thank you, but no, yes.
Lee Agius (21:48):
I guess you get to a point where you know
opportunities are great, yeah,it's okay.
If you say no to an opportunity, another one will pop up.
Yes, I think sometimes at thebeginning for me it was like oh,
if I say no, you know, theremight not be another opportunity
.
Amra Pajalic (22:02):
Yeah, and that's what I'm learning to deal with.
And for me it's differentbecause I've still got the day
job, so everything I do is rainy, but there is an element of
flattery when you get asked andso.
But there is an element offlattery when you get asked, so
I would get sucked into that alot where my ego would lead and
not my common sense.
So I'm learning to balance thatmore.
Where it's like my ego issatisfied, we don't need to feed
(22:24):
it anymore.
Common sense needs to rule now.
Yeah, yeah.
So I wanted to change a littlebit and talk about the pros and
cons as you transitioned intomidlife.
Lee Agius (22:40):
Yeah, so initially through, I guess, midlife, I
think, when I was perimenopausalit was not a really enjoyable
time for me.
I felt like the anxiety hormonewas really kicking in.
(23:00):
I also didn't understand atfirst what was happening,
because all of a sudden I feltso teary and so tired and it's
so hard to tell what was goingon because I was so full.
My child was still at schooland I was running around after
him with his sporting events.
I was doing volunteer work, Iwas working, I was trying to
(23:23):
start my business.
Then I thought oh, you know,maybe I'll feel better if I do a
yoga degree or a yoga teachertraining.
But you know, it was great, butit just added more to my pain.
So there was so many.
I was, it was, it was difficult.
And then I realized why?
Why are women not talking aboutthis?
Amra Pajalic (23:43):
And why do we not know about this before it
happens?
Yeah, instead we.
Now there's a little bit moreconversations happening, and
this is what I'm wanting tofocus on also.
Yes, yeah, but yeah, there'sjust not enough.
We're in the middle of it andwe're struggling and we battle
through it.
Lee Agius (23:59):
Yeah, yes, I became quite open about wanting to
discuss it with other women andjust sharing experiences.
And then I started seeing anaturopath and I was just trying
to hormonally get myself backinto just feeling okay, it's
such an interesting time of yourlife because so many things are
(24:22):
changing.
You know your body shape canstart to change as well.
You don't know when you'regoing to get a menstrual cycle.
You know there's a lot of stuffgoing on.
There are people that you loved.
You almost want to like.
You know they're annoying orsomething.
Yes, the tolerance, thepatience.
Amra Pajalic (24:44):
Yes, that's right.
Yeah, and all those new things.
Like I never suffered fromanxiety until.
Lee Agius (24:48):
Perinatal Palsy.
Yes, you're right.
But now that I'm, I'mpost-menopause now, yeah, and
I'm feeling really great.
Yes, I feel like everything hassort of simultaneously,
everything has sort of landed abit.
Now I don't have the hormonalimbalances and I'm also with my
(25:11):
work.
I found a little bit of a wayto keep myself a bit more
balanced yes and I'm, and I seemyself in a much more
compassionate lens.
I've also had a long time towork myself out, yes, so to know
what I am like as a person andknow what kind of might serve me
best.
Amra Pajalic (25:31):
I think that clarity is the joy of it.
It is the clarity that comeswith it.
So what is your motto in lifeand how do you think it's served
you in your transitions andpivots?
Lee Agius (25:43):
I think I've been lucky that I've always had a
fairly positive constitution.
I think I'm very resilient.
I think those things help.
I think I always look for thesilver lining when things are
negative or things are happeningin workplaces or whatever.
I try not to get sucked up intothe doom and the gloom.
But I look for for what can I?
(26:06):
Nothing stays the same,everything changes, and that we
can kind of.
So I do look for the silverlining.
I do think that it's importantto just try to stay positive.
Yeah, if you can if you can,like it's okay's okay.
(26:26):
Like I'm not always positive,but I acknowledge, okay, I'm
feeling a bit negative right now.
What do I?
What is it that I need?
We, you know, just let thisride this out, but, you know,
aim to get back onto thepositive trail yes, so I just
wanted to ask any last words onthe power of the arts for
(26:48):
wellbeing and joy.
Well, the arts have been soinstrumental for me to even be
here today.
Like, I am so grateful that Ifound that path, because I
wasn't a kid that people weresaying, oh you're such a you
know, have you ever thoughtabout drawing, or do you want to
take this vocation down?
This, you know.
(27:08):
Have you ever thought aboutdrawing or do you want to take
this vocation down?
This, you know I had.
I left school early because Icould not do the exams in year
11.
I knew that.
So the arts have helped me to.
You know, I left school.
I did not know how to write anessay, but because of the arts
because when I was involved inwith my lecturers would always
pull me up but my artwork theycould see that I understood the
(27:33):
conceptual framework that theywere asking me to work in, that
I could do that and I actuallygot really great results.
I had to keep.
I was lucky enough that I livedin lots of share houses with
really smart people, so I'd askthem to help me not do my essays
, of course, but just help me to.
(27:53):
I just wanted to learn, yes.
So I remember still having alittle book of lots of words
that I was trying to learn andtrying to write.
And even when I went to do mymaster's, you know I was put
together with a really greatsupervisor, so I was able.
(28:13):
So it took me much longer thanprobably everybody else, but I
ended up.
You know, from a person whodoesn't know how to write an
essay at school to leaving amaster's with a 98% was pretty
impressive.
For me, that is impressive.
It was mind-blowing actually.
So there is room for growthwithin the right context.
(28:33):
Maybe if I hadn't you know whatother course was I going to do
that might have allowed me togradually learn to write, to
understand because I can read,but just to process things, yeah
.
So I'm very grateful for thearts to have afforded me where I
am now.
Amra Pajalic (28:54):
Yeah, and it makes me feel a bit sad as a high
school teacher when we don't putenough priority on the arts and
there's not enoughopportunities for the arts, they
kind of get more and moresidelined.
Do you and the arts teachers?
They really see the strengthfor kids?
Yeah, where there are kids whoare getting the A's in that and
that's their place forconfidence, to build their
(29:14):
self-worth.
Yeah Well, thank you so muchfor coming on my podcast and for
being so generous and fortalking about these things that
you know there's a lot of peoplethat will be able to relate to
the neurodiversions andunderstanding themselves.
So, thank you, you're welcome.
You're welcome, amra.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
(29:37):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories and inspiration From my
armchair to yours.
Remember, every story beginswith a single word.
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Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com