October 12, 2025 • 61 mins
I sit down with actor and narrator Nina Nikolic to unpack the craft and business of voice work, from emotional performance and character choices to contracts, rates, and protecting your voice in an AI world. Along the way we swap practical systems for finding clients, tracking jobs, and turning creative energy into a sustainable career.
• balancing creative craft with small business habits
• social media as proof of life and connection
• lead sources, referrals, and asking how clients found us
• audiobook workflow, samples, pacing, and pickups
• pronunciation research and consistency across long texts
• performance choices that separate characters without caricature
• human narration versus AI, ethics, and accessibility
• adding voice protection language to audiobook back matter
• contracts, rights windows, and negotiating clauses
• owning IP and avoiding perpetual, all‑media traps
• input‑based goals versus outcome‑based goals
• pricing to a livable per‑finished‑hour rate
• reflection routines, tracking wins, and sustainable marketing
You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how‑to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amra Pajalic (00:00):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pailich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how-to guidesat amrailh.com slash podcast.
Now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I've got Nina Nikolic.
She's a Serbian Australianactor based between Melbourne
and Sydney.
She's known for her playfullygritty presence and versatility.
(00:46):
She brings grounded imaginativecharacters and narration to
life across video games,animation, film, audio, dramas,
audiobooks, commercial, andcorporate work.
All things.
So audiences may recognize heras Grandma in Fruitbust,
Percival in Tainted Grail, TheFall of Avalon, and campaigns
(01:10):
for Google and Weight Watchers.
A lifelong gamer and Twitchpartner under the handle Kit
Kerrigan.
She thrives in live,collaborative environments with
fellow creatives.
Off mic, she's also a booklover and uh has a soft spot for
cozy romances.
Yes.
Medical dramas.
Oh my medical dramas.
(01:31):
Oh my god.
Speculative fiction and dogs.
And we have worked togetherwhere she has been my narrator
on three projects on um, she'sbeen Sabiha's Dilemma, Alma's
Loyalty, and The Climb, whichwas a dual-nerated young adult
romance.
Yes.
So thank you so much forcoming.
Thank you for having me.
(01:51):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we've we've kindof been working together for a
while.
We keep in touch.
And then what was like, oh,would you a catch up?
And I was like, yes.
Can you do a podcast too whileyou're here?
Nina Nikolic (02:02):
Yes, because I remembered it was like so long
since we were in touch.
And I remembered that your nextlaunch was coming up, but I
couldn't make it.
And I was like, we have to havecoffee.
Oh no, I'm so I want tocelebrate.
I want to celebrate the launch.
And then this came up.
So I was like, yes.
Amra Pajalic (02:18):
Well, see, this is the thing now.
We can have like catch-ups withpeople and have a conversation
on camera.
Yeah.
As a great memory and alearning tool.
Um, but you know, just to havesome fun.
And I think um you're a reallygreat person to talk uh, because
I've been trying to talk topeople about creative life, not
also just talking to people whohave interesting stories to
(02:39):
tell.
And, you know, you are workingfull-time as a voiceover artist.
I'm trying to, yeah.
I mean that's amazing.
So you've got that perspectiveof the creative aspect in terms
of the voiceover work and youknow the acting that you do in
um voiceover and also whenyou're narrating books um and
(02:59):
then games and stuff, but alsothe the perspective of being a
small business and and having todo all of that stuff.
Nina Nikolic (03:06):
Change it, change the hats, as people say, which
is still like a skill that Ithink comes over time, which
I've been learning a lot.
Like I'll have one day whereI'm complaining to my mom about
like, I hate marking, I have tokeep emailing people, and I'm so
annoying, and they must hateme.
And why don't people call meback?
And oh, they're probably justbusy.
(03:28):
I'll get them next time.
And then I sit at my computerand I'm like, hello, I am a bad
bitch, and uh I would like towork with you.
And I think it works reallygreat.
And I really think we shouldwork together at some point.
Anyway, love your stuff.
Like, and then you get off thecomputer, you're like, no one
loves me.
Amra Pajalic (03:45):
I'm never gonna work again.
This is awful.
It is, you really have toconstantly put yourself out.
Nina Nikolic (03:52):
Yeah, you know, like I'll take it personally,
and like, yeah, it's it's aninteresting space to like be in
the place where you have to beyour own spokesperson.
Otherwise, no one's gonna knowthat you exist.
When I saw, I don't know, oneof those inspirational reels or
something that was like, you canbe as good actor as you want to
be, but if no one sees it, orif you don't tell anyone about
(04:14):
it, no one's gonna know.
Amra Pajalic (04:16):
Well, that's the thing.
And it's like we're we'reconstantly paddling and kind of
like, look at me, look at me.
Um, but you have to because andand and things do happen.
We do get gigs from socialmedia, we do get gigs from you
know, people referring us, orlike my last gig um at a library
where I did a workshop camefrom meeting someone at a party.
(04:37):
Um, and it took like a year,and then they and I emailed them
afterwards.
I was like, oh, just followingup, uh, these are some workshops
that I do.
Crickets.
Yeah, and then a year laterthey're like, oh, we met all
that time ago.
And I'm like, oh now I'm gonnabe able to do it.
Nina Nikolic (04:53):
Yeah, exactly.
And it it's and sometimes Ithink you forget how those
things interact.
Like there are, I consider, Iknow that literally just before
this chat, we were talking abouthow much I hate social media,
because it just feels it feelsso effortful sometimes.
And sometimes I have thosemoments of inspiration where I'm
like, this would be a reallyfun reel to make.
(05:14):
I'm gonna do that, and then Inever get a chance to actually
finish it.
I like I'll like record it andthen something comes up that I
have to work on, and then itjust gets chucked in the pile or
whatever.
Um, but it just the thing is, Iconsider it to be like it's
almost like a proof of life bodyof work.
(05:35):
So when I am in addition to mywebsite, because your website
can be there and just sit thereand it has your stuff on it, and
you've got your SEO going andall those things.
But the social media side ofthings, I consider really
important as much as Idisgruntledly try to keep up
with it.
It is very important for mewhen I'm looking at people, I'm
(05:58):
like, are they still active?
What type of person are they?
What type of stuff do theylike?
All of those things comethrough your social media stuff
that you share.
Like my the things I share onTwitter are completely different
to what I share on LinkedIn andInstagram and whatever.
Sometimes they cross over alittle bit.
But when you consider all ofthose things together, I think
(06:19):
that's the the tipping point fora lot of people with me.
Like they might find my umnarration reels, for example.
I think narration is probablythe biggest one where I think
yourself and another author thatI worked with recently, Ryan
Birch, I think both of you foundmy reels on the Aussie
(06:40):
narrators website.
Amra Pajalic (06:43):
Where I was like looking at all the different
narrators in Australia.
But then I couldn't backtrackfrom telling you which one
because I'd gone into this darkhall where I'd spend like 500
tabs over here.
Yeah, always.
Nina Nikolic (06:56):
But so, but that that website does have my reels
on it, and it's obviously aplace where lots of people go
SEO-wise, Aussie narrators,right?
So you're gonna go there as thefirst port of call.
But then it also has like my myblurb, my social media.
So you listen to the words,you're like, okay, yeah, I kind
of like these.
How do I get in touch with thisperson?
What else is there about thisperson?
You go to the website, you seea little bit more about me, but
(07:19):
then you hit up the social mediaand you're like, oh, I actually
want to talk to this person.
And that's I think where a lotof stuff culminates for me is
that tiny little extraconnection that's like, oh, I
actually can talk to thisperson.
Yeah.
Um, and I'll either get like aDM or or an email that's like,
(07:41):
oh, hey, I I saw I just want youto do this walk or whatever.
Um, and I'm like, oh, cool,how'd you find me?
Amra Pajalic (07:49):
And I'm learning that too.
I'm learning to ask people, howdid you find me?
Because then I'm like, oh, thatthing works.
Yeah.
Exactly.
I think that's the thing.
I struggled with social mediain the beginning because
honestly, it feels like you'rewalking out naked for for like a
part of it until you sort ofget a get a style.
And so I had to force myself.
I actually made a goal where Iwas going to post every day just
(08:11):
to build up my reps.
Yeah.
Just to just to be like, okay,I've just released, just
release.
Um, and you know, I I guessit's easier for me also because
I figured out I can do thingswhere I can do book reels and
things where I'm not on camera,I'm creating um social media
assets.
But for you, it's a little bitdifferent because it's all about
(08:33):
what you can create and youknow, like your voice, and and
so it's a lot more onerous.
Nina Nikolic (08:40):
Yeah, and a lot of the time I can't access.
So there's there's this thingwhere some people say you can't
just be posting all of your workall the time.
Like no one wants you to gloat,and no one wants all of it.
I want you to gloat.
But the thing is, you'refabulous.
If you don't post the stuffthat you've worked on, A, how
are people going to know whatyou've worked on?
(09:01):
And B, how are people gonnaknow what it sounds like and
what you can bring?
How are people gonna actuallysee your performance in various
things if they haven't playedthat game or they haven't done
this or whatever?
So you have to show your, likeyou have to build how prolific
you are in that way while alsoshowing all of the behind the
scenes stuff, what I do all thetime, your personality stuff,
(09:21):
all those things.
Um, but a lot of the work thatI do also either doesn't come
out for like five years, doesn'tcome out at all because it's
internal, or is impossible totrack down and impossible to get
people to send you thematerial.
Yeah, once it's once it's downthere.
So um, so that is a process initself where like once a quarter
(09:44):
you sit down and you're like,all right, which of these
projects have come out?
These have all been like theseare all the ones that I I track
all my stuff.
And so I have all of myprojects that are in progress,
the ones that need a quote, theones that have been paid, the
ones that are pending payment.
I have my once once a monthmoney day, which I is halfway.
(10:04):
The chasing of the money, whichI have to the I I nearly had
one unpaid invoice.
I have never had an unpaidinvoice.
You've managed to touch thecrook, get that, get it over the
line.
Yeah, yeah.
The last one was big thanks tomy agent, she's tenacious.
So that was one of those ones,and bless her.
(10:25):
Um, that's Sarah McLeod at BigMouth Works, by the way.
Love you, Sarah.
Thank you so much.
You're the best.
Um, but largely I think it'sbecause I I want to follow up on
that stuff.
Like the sooner, the s I a lotof feedback that I get actually
from clients is how quickly Iaction things.
You do, unless I'm nearlydying.
Amra Pajalic (10:46):
No, no, no.
Well, you've always been alittle bit more than a little
bit.
Yeah, during one of my books.
But like they were just sogreat at communicating and
keeping in touch.
And then what I loved also inwas that social media, you were
like um providing outtakes andstuff, and oh yeah, those were
so funny.
Um, like just that behind thescenes, because I um also
(11:12):
arranged for my memoir.
And so I have just a tiny, tinytaste about how hard it is.
unknown (11:19):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (11:19):
Because I I was in the studio four days a week or
five days for um six hours.
Nina Nikolic (11:28):
For how long?
Just for the one week or forthe week.
Amra Pajalic (11:31):
Yeah, right.
Uh and uh it was a 70,000-wordbook.
And um, and it was so becauselike, you know, and and you know
about this where you'reswitching between words.
So now I had words in Bosnianthat I would say, and then I had
to go back to English, and mytongue would do really weird
things.
Yeah.
And then I'm pretentious.
I I used all these words in mywriting.
(11:54):
I don't know how to pronounce.
I know how to write them.
I know how to write thembecause of you know all the
correct.
Yeah.
And so then I was like, and sothe producer would have to like
find, you know, the thepronunciation, then we'd have to
practice.
And then she'd be like, Yeah,you didn't quite nail it, let's
do that again.
Nina Nikolic (12:13):
I yeah, I have to do that myself all the time as
well.
Like, um, I'm currently readinguh The Real Fight, the Kim
Dalton memoir, and that's youknow, all related to cancer and
her treatment and all of themedicines that were in the city.
Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
The organs and the doctors'names and all um these things.
(12:35):
And so I her partner at thetime is the one who's who's
doing this book now,re-releasing it for um, I think
it was 20 years since shepassed.
So it's like an anniversaryrelease kind of thing, together
with the audio version.
Um, and I had to message Robertone day in the booth and I was
like, hey Robert, um, I have alist of words for you.
(12:59):
Uh, and I was like rattling offall these words.
I'm like, can you just let meknow if these are correct?
Thank you.
And so I have like 10 voicememos from Robert in my face of
just like telling me Taekwondoterminology, what he remembers,
the names of the medicationsthat are, and how closely they
(13:19):
work.
Because some stuff, you know,you do as much research as you
can, obviously, to prepare.
But one thing that I've learnedis there's different ways to
pronounce things too.
So there might be a way that Ipronounce a word that a client
just prefers it pronounced adifferent way, which is totally
fine, but it's something that Ithen need to wrap my head around
(13:42):
every time.
Or even sometimes I'llinterchange pronunciations.
Amra Pajalic (13:46):
Yes.
Nina Nikolic (13:46):
Well, you'll you do it when I had that versus
anesthetist.
I can't even say it.
I caught myself in the middleof this book, I said
anaesthetist twice.
I had to, I had to look it upto double check the British
pronunciation just in casebecause I was like anesthetist,
anaesthet, anesthetist, and itwas a whole thing.
And then I caught myself thenext time because it also
(14:08):
depends on the context of theword and what words are
surrounding it.
And so I naturally saidanesthetist the next time.
And then I was like, I don'tknow, we have to keep this
consistent.
I'm gonna go back and redothat.
So yeah, it is like all ofthose things, um, as well as the
style of the writer can becompletely different.
Um I think in two of the morerecent books, there's uh a style
(14:32):
of writing that um that kind ofswaps can conjunctions.
Uh so instead of like, youknow, um it had had or something
like that, I would just say ithad.
And so then I'll have to catchthat and be like, oh, it had had
(14:52):
this thing.
Like even small stuff like thatis gonna be picked up as being
not accurate.
Yes.
So, and and can completelychange the flow of a sentence,
the author's voice, that kind ofthing.
So that kind of stuff Idefinitely try to fix.
Sometimes if it's like anobvious typo, I'll I'll fix that
and then button check.
And that's the brilliant thing.
Amra Pajalic (15:13):
Like when I was doing my memoir, you know,
picking up all the typos, andand one of the things I loved
about having my books narratedis um all the little tiny
things, because you know,there's there's things that you
pick up, the things that arepicked up by my by me, by my
proofreader, by you know, allthe software that I use.
Uh and then there's the stuffthat until you read it out loud,
(15:35):
yeah.
Nina Nikolic (15:36):
It's just a tiny thing.
Yes.
But you're like, oh yeah, it ismissing like just an A or
something.
Yeah.
Like there was just somethingin there.
Amra Pajalic (15:44):
And most people don't even notice, maybe, when
they're reading, and I meanthere's some eagle equal mind.
Um, but it is it is the bestway.
Um, but you know, I can't readit myself because it's too much.
Nina Nikolic (16:01):
And it it's like and stuff like that isn't
usually a big deal or anything,but in terms of the narrator um
honouring the original text,that's the kind of thing that
becomes a conversation of like,is this the type of because a
lot the most common one that Ifind is it looks like the author
(16:22):
has written a passage one way,and then they're like, oh no,
actually I kind of want tochange the tense of this or and
restructured it, and yeah, andjust and changed one word or
missed another one, which like Iknow when I'm reviewing my
writing, I do that all the time.
So it'll be something likethat, where it's like, did you
want it in this tense or thistense?
Because there's kind of both inthere or whatever.
(16:43):
So yeah, just stuff like that II try to catch and use software
and stuff for that as well, andthen also like manually go
through when I'm editing.
So I'll do like a firstproofing pass with um with the
software, uh, go through, do allthe pickups, and then do
another listen, actually justsitting with my headphones on
(17:05):
with my laptop, and I'mlistening, listening, and like,
no, that gap was too long.
Let me edit that.
All right.
Now that sounded like shit.
I'm gonna fix that.
Amra Pajalic (17:15):
It is, it is because um, you know, there's a
process.
So when I, you know, wasgetting you to narrate my books,
I had to um try and go throughall the words, and that's why I
I was looking for someone whoshared the same language group
as me, because I have um a lotof you know, Bosnian words that
are the same as Serbian words.
Nina Nikolic (17:37):
Um try my best.
Amra Pajalic (17:40):
Yeah, but at least you can you can sort of break
your tongue because it is aboutum, you know, that that ability
to sort of get the right sounds.
Like even with my daughter, Iwas practicing with her the
other day.
She doesn't really know how tospeak the language, but because
she's been around it enough, shecan't pronounce properly when
when we're practicing.
(18:01):
Yeah.
Um, because, you know, it's avery harsh language and our
consonants are really harsh.
And and uh, you know, I knowthat when I talk to um my
husband in front of my daughter,she's like, Lee, why don't you
move on?
Why are you yelling?
Let's have a conversation,darling.
This is what we sound like.
Um, and so you know, it's justit's just that that sort of
(18:24):
thing.
So, you know, like ideally inif you're wanting um you're
working with a client, so it'syou know, getting when I sent
you the file, actually you gothrough the process of what you
want if you're working withsomeone who is doing a book.
Nina Nikolic (18:40):
Um so for me, I feel like I'm a lot more
flexible than some people thatI've seen.
I mean, like I know that peopledo have their structure because
I I feel like any kind ofstructural rules come out of
necessity, right?
You have one too many peoplewho like are a bit too much, and
you have to have thoseboundaries.
(19:01):
But um, generally speaking, thepeople that I work with have
been super cool and really,really nice.
And so my process is usuallypretty, pretty loose, pretty
open, pretty collaborative.
Um, I'll make sure that I send,like, there'll be like a
shorter original um sample, kindof like an audition.
Anytime someone approaches mefor anything, I still basically
(19:25):
audition for them.
I don't call it that, but forme, that's what it is, because I
want to make sure, even if theythink that they want to work
with me, I want to make surethat they're still happy with my
voice and my performance intheir context.
Because they've heard my demosand like, oh yeah, I really like
your stuff, blah, blah, blah,they'd love to work with you.
And I'm like, that's great.
(19:45):
But also, I don't know how manyother people you're
approaching.
I don't know if my budget isgonna fit if if my rates are
gonna fit your budget, how ifwe're going to work together,
you know, your workflow might becompletely different to mine.
I try to, I try to, you know,accommodate as much as I can.
But the first step is alwaysgoing to be that initial
audition.
Because even just from that, umI I encourage lots of feedback
(20:13):
so that in that sample stage youcan really iron out things like
pacing, tone.
Um, like in the real fightrecently, um, you know, Robert
was super happy with all thesamples.
He was like, Do you go ahead,love everything, love it, love
it, love, love, love it.
But he wanted to, you know,give her parents some respect of
(20:34):
listening to the recordings aswell and and getting their
thoughts and things.
And I'm totally open to that,obviously.
Like he's the rights holder,but we also want to make sure
that her family is comfortablewith how everything is, you
know, portrayed.
Um, and so her mother had somefeedback on like she's a teacher
as well.
Um, and so she had somefeedback on like the cadence of
(20:58):
the narration slowing down thepace a little bit, things like
that.
Um, which is all totally validfeedback, and it might feel a
bit weird for like for me tokind of like, okay, but that was
my that was my take on it.
Like, that's not helpful.
So I'm like, great, good.
Now I know I have a benchmarkfor how they're happy for it to
(21:20):
sound, which means I can takethat reference it whenever I'm
feeling a bit weird, like we allhave our days where sometimes
we feel better than others.
That can come through nowperformance as well.
So I have like a benchmark togo back to of like this is the
version they were happy with, Ican kind of move forward with
that.
And then, yeah, with thepronunciations and stuff, I try
(21:42):
to get as much of those out ofthe way before the process
starts, like character voices,things like that, um, as
possible.
Inevitably, there's gonna bepickups or you know, stuff like
that.
Um, with my fiction stuff left.
I I don't think it's commonpractice um for authors to get
(22:05):
like a final approval of theaudiobook, but I do if they if
the publisher holds the rights,yeah.
They'll just be like, this iswhat you get.
Yeah, you've approved the first15 minutes and then the rest of
it, that's what you get.
Um, I'm a I am a lot morecollaborative in that way, where
um I will encourage if peoplewant to that they give it a
(22:28):
final listen, make sure you'rehappy.
If it and honestly, everysingle person who has gone
through that process has been socompletely reasonable.
Um I could have communicatedbetter on with with Ryan Birch
on the last one because she washighlighting all these big gaps,
and I'm like, it hasn't beenedited yet.
I'm so sorry.
But but things like um, like,oh, I actually intended for uh
(22:54):
this this particular line wasactually like this kind of
circumstance.
And I'm like, oh yeah, totally,get it.
I'll just do that as a pickupas well because I'm I'm already
working through my other pickupstoo.
So I bundle in those notestogether.
I'll like hold on um on doingall of my revisions and pickups
for accuracy stuff because theremight be something that needs
(23:18):
to be fixed that they also hadfeedback on anyway.
unknown (23:21):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:22):
So that would kind of go into the same who might
not have listened to audiobooksmight not realize how much it is
a performance.
Because like the first time Ilistened to um Sandina's Dilemma
and you narrating it, I wascrying.
I was crying.
I was crying.
Wasn't I crying?
You were crying at certainpoints too, because we were both
(23:42):
like, oh my god, that scene.
Nina Nikolic (23:44):
I don't know if there's been a book that I have
not actually cried in the booth,and I think some of those tags
ended up in the final.
Amra Pajalic (23:50):
Yeah, but there worked because that's what I did
for my member.
There were certain scenes whereI was reading it out and I
started crying, and I'm like,oh, you know, like I had that
emotion.
But for me, I was crying likebecause, you know, certain
scenes, but I was just cryingfrom the joy of, you know, like
it's it's a medium where it is aperformance.
And so even though so I'm oneof those people that, you know,
(24:13):
I close my eyes and I seepictures in my head.
And so for me, I loveaudiobooks because they are
bringing the pictures to lifefor me.
Um I love audiobooks alsobecause you know, so many times
you get the names wrong.
Oh, yeah.
You know, even recently um mydaughter and I, she read
(24:34):
Beloved, and then we werewatching the movie, and she was
like, Oh, that's Setha.
Um she was like I was readingthat as Steve.
Yeah, Steve, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like all the namesthat you don't realise.
Like even uh recently my friendUm Blood Moon Bride, Demet, who
I interviewed, and she's likeRaya.
(24:56):
And I'm like Raya.
You know, so it's like thatside of it, but then it's also
the performances within where,as you said, you know,
characters have voices and youdevelop like a personality, and
and then when they're speaking,um, and you know, as as a
writer, you're trying to removeas many speech tags as you can,
(25:18):
because uh, you know, itshouldn't be every line he sent,
she said, he sent, she sentthere should be.
Nina Nikolic (25:23):
And sometimes you're and then as the narrator,
sometimes you're trying to workout who who actually said what.
Yes, because it would makesense knowing, like when you
hear the character voice, butthen also you're like, wait a
second, yeah, we lost track.
Yeah, and I lost track, I needto highlight everything.
Um, yeah, totally.
And I think in terms of thevoices too, um like as a voice
(25:50):
actor, you try to stretch, youknow, your cadence, your voice,
your pronunciations, all ofthose things to have a diverse
enough range to kind ofdifferentiate things.
But most of the time, you knowhow people keep talking about
voice acting is acting, darling.
A lot of that just comes downto what is each character's
(26:11):
demeanor.
Because that will likeinherently change the way that
they speak and how they sound,and like if there's any if
there's any notes on theirphysicality or um how they look,
how they behave, those kinds ofthings will always inform what
the voice kind of sounds likebecause you just kind of become
(26:34):
that character is like a reallyzhuzy way to say it.
Amra Pajalic (26:39):
But I don't know, like that's the thing with it,
you know, and when I'm writingit, I'm I'm imagining that
character.
And when you are performing it,you are bringing that to life.
So it's it's the same thing interms of you know the creative
side, yes.
Um, but there is there is somuch to it, and I think these
(27:00):
days, like, you know, there isthe AI narration because some
people don't care about voiceand some people speed up and
stuff like that.
So they're like, you know, theAI is fine.
Um, but for a lot of us, forme, I love the performance.
Nina Nikolic (27:16):
We actually want to connect to it as well.
And the thing is, so like onthe AI stuff, right?
Like, I I love that foraccessibility.
I spoke to you about that.
Like the thing is, especiallyif um the the problem isn't so
much that it exists as a tool,it's how people use that tool in
(27:37):
in ways that don't actuallybenefit humanity.
Yeah.
Like there's a benefit of likeum for for people who want who
can't do a narrator just yet foran official audiobook, would
love to do it in future, butthere are people who physically
cannot read their book rightnow.
(27:58):
Brilliant.
Like that's a it's wonderfulthat that exists for them.
And I think a lot of peoplekind of disregard that about it
being available.
Yes.
Um, and then obviously theother problem is where those AI
voices have come from, how theywere developed, are they are
they developed ethically, whicha lot of the time to keep things
(28:19):
that cheap, they haven't been,which is a whole other
discussion that could take 4,000million years.
But at the end of the day, likeI think the general consensus
that I've seen is that onlyhumans can connect with humans
on that level.
Yes.
And so that's like it kind ofdepends what you want.
Amra Pajalic (28:40):
If you want the if you want like a team movie, you
want it depends where you areand what exactly and what the
purpose is, yeah, what theintention is.
When I'm listening to anaudiobook, I want that human
narration.
And for me, the voice is veryimportant.
Um, I've stopped audiobooks ifthe voice is there's only one
that I pursued because I reallyliked the story.
(29:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Um and the voice was just likebut I was like, oh my god.
Nina Nikolic (29:07):
I've heard that too, but then I became
accustomed to it.
Amra Pajalic (29:10):
Yeah.
Nina Nikolic (29:11):
And I was like, oh, and now I'm kind of sad this
is over.
Like there's a point whereyou're like, oh now it's fine.
Yeah, which was quiteinteresting.
Like it it definitely took me awhile to like get accustomed to
it.
And and that's the thing too,is like not every voice or every
style is gonna be foreverybody.
No.
Um yeah, I don't know, it's oneof those things.
(29:33):
And also with with characters,again, um getting it it's also
interesting to see because likeas the narrator, you want to
make sure every single characterhas their like distinct voice
or whatever.
But the thing is, a lot of thetime I've realized the author,
there are some characters thataren't necessarily that
(29:54):
important, which I don't know.
Yeah, until you get to until Iand yeah, and or until I hear
from The author, like, because Idon't know if there's gonna be
more books in the series, Idon't know which character is
gonna become more prominent,stuff like that.
So when I was working withRyan, um, she sent me, I asked
her for samples of like how doyou picture these people
sounding?
(30:15):
And she actually found clips onYouTube of like various people
that was like, I kind of imaginethem sounding like in this
realm.
So there's more there, um, Ican't remember, there was a
sportswoman who I can't quiteremember what her name was, but
it was a more of that kind ofum, you know, grounded tomboy
(30:37):
kind of energy.
Like, you know, when you seeany like soccer roo from the
women's team on the news talkingabout it's basically like that
vibe, right?
And I'm like, got it.
I know those, I know thosepeople, like understood.
And then there's you know, anan influencer who's from like an
influencer from Queensland orsomething that has her own
(30:59):
particular way of speaking.
She's like, I I picture thisperson speaking like that.
Yeah.
But I knew from the amount ofsamples that she sent me and who
she sent me the samples for,that those were the ones that
were the most important to focuson.
And so therefore, if she didn'tsend me samples for other
characters, they're probably notthat much of a priority.
(31:20):
And I can either take libertieswith them if I feel like it, or
like there's just a little bitmore wiggle room there for how
much emphasis to put on howdistinct you make each of them,
and how much each of thosecharacters are gonna be in a
scene together.
And then, like, that was thethe first round of feedback was
like, oh, the two protagonistsfeel like they're too similar
(31:42):
because it was a um lesbianromance.
Oh, I so there's the twodistinct.
Yeah, so they really did needto like differentiate a bit more
because they're gonna be inmost of the book just talking to
each other in dialogue.
So it's like, okay, cool, I'llI'll have to like just mold this
stuff, pull pull out aspects ofthings differently for each
(32:03):
one.
Um, and then yeah, do bring upa sample, great.
Move on.
So yeah, it's a fun process.
Amra Pajalic (32:11):
And also we'll we were talking about AI earlier.
We had a bit of a kerfuffle,you and I, during the AI find
away voices thing.
Nina Nikolic (32:17):
Oh, yeah, everyone had a kerfuffle.
Amra Pajalic (32:20):
Yeah, where where I was using, and I still I'm
still using them, um, althoughthey've changed names now, and
all this, probably because ofthis.
Yeah.
Um, but they were called FindAway Voices, and I was using
them as the distributor for myaudiobooks, and then they um
updated their contracts ofservice that they owned the
rights to your voice, eventhough I was only giving And
(32:41):
they were just selling them toSpotify.
Nina Nikolic (32:43):
Yeah, and now Spotify has a marketplace to
create ads on Spotify for you.
And I wonder where they get allof those voices from for that
service.
Yeah, so there's always um thatthat's the interesting.
And then they kind ofbackpedaled and we're like, oh,
but no, but that's not what wemean.
And it's like, yeah, but wealso can see, like, the thing is
(33:04):
you can say that, but from whatwe're seeing, the fact that you
tried to do this, and now youhave this magical service that
has come up for people to createads for their business
magically out of the blue withyour AI and where did you get
the tools from?
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:21):
It's just like, you know, uh Chat GPT, it
sourced all these books that areyou know copyright.
And yeah, it's a great tool,but at the end of the day, it
got the stuff, you know, fromelsewhere and that needs to be
addressed.
Because if you know, I want toput um give the license for my
books to be used in AI, I needto be compensated.
(33:43):
If you are going to provideyour voice where they're going
to be cloning it and using it,you need to be compensated for
that.
Nina Nikolic (33:51):
I've now had to start putting so in the back
matter of the audiobooks.
Um, I got the blessing of thethe authors to do this and the
rights authors to do this, butyou know how there's like the
copyright um back matter stuff.
Thank you for listening.
This is the end of this bookwritten by so-and-so, narrated
by Nina Nikolich.
(34:11):
Um, the text version of thisbook was published in blah,
blah, blah, copyright held bythis person.
No portion of this book may beused to reproduce blah blah
blah.
And I've also been adding noportion of this recording may be
used to reproduce thenarrator's voice without express
written authorization from NinaNikolich as well.
So they have their like youcan't use our material, and
(34:32):
there is also you cannot use myvoice print from this recording.
Because now there there areservices which I haven't I have
not seen anyone else do that.
I don't know if anyone elsedoes that, but I felt that it
was necessary to at leastinclude it if I'm already doing
that for the um content itself.
Um, just as a failsafe, Iguess.
Amra Pajalic (34:55):
Like Well, might may as well, because we know
that that that has beenhappening.
There have been attempts to dothat.
Even um there was a kerfufflein the publishing world where um
when AI licensing wasavailable, publishers were
trying to get authors to signdeals so they would get 50% of
(35:15):
the AI licensing rights.
And so it's like um, and nowthey're probably trying to add
that to the boilerplatecontract.
And the problem is when you'renew, you sign anything and you
give away everything.
Nina Nikolic (35:30):
Well, especially when it becomes standard.
Yes.
In a lot of contracts, it hasjust become standard to put that
stuff in there, and it makesyou think as an artist and
whatever, when every singlecontract you get has that
verbiage in it, you're like,wait, can I contest this?
Like, is this something that Ican push back on when I
(35:51):
negotiate?
And it's like, yes, it is.
You should.
But the circumstances of everydeal that we do, particularly
with big publishers, bigcompanies, all of these things,
makes you feel like you don'thave that leverage and you're
not able to do that.
And a lot of actors lost jobsduring the strikes and things
(36:12):
for that reason.
They were like, I I don'tconsent to doing this, you know,
screening process or whatever.
And they're like, Great, don'tcome in tomorrow.
We'll find someone else.
Um, and so to that degree, it'skind of like, well shit, how do
you, how do you then, as alittle artist trying to make
(36:33):
your way in the world in theworld, gain enough leverage to
be in Zendaya's shoes, whofamously says, make sure you
read every single one of yourcontracts, sit there with a
highlighter, go through it witha fine-tooth comb, ask
questions, push back, do allshe's she's like talked about
that numerous times.
(36:55):
And I think that's one of thethings that made me feel more
empowered to um so thank you,Zendaya.
Appreciate it.
I don't know if she'll everlisten to this or not.
Well dreamed, but we'll dream.
But the fact that people in herposition can come out and say
those things, and she's sosupremely successful and doing
so, so well for herself, youknow, knock on would we ever get
(37:19):
to be in that position to havethat much leverage to be able to
say, no, I won't do this.
We we need to fix this, I won'tagree to it.
We'll have to either add this,negotiate on that, blah, blah,
blah.
But the fact of the matter isthat's business.
Yes.
That's part of like the hut wewere talking about.
Yes.
Of like, you can't, as theartist, sit there and and feel
like, oh, yeah, but if I don'tagree, I'm not gonna get this
(37:40):
job or whatever.
And it's like, well, if you doagree, you might not get another
job anyway, because you've donethis for 250 bucks and it says
perpetuity forever in the knownuniverse and all current and
forever universes in themultiverse.
Amra Pajalic (37:57):
Yeah, so that's that's the thing.
Nina Nikolic (37:58):
There's that existing or not.
Amra Pajalic (38:01):
But that's the thing, there is that um
desperation, like and you know,like I my last um publishing
contract, I had a friend read itand go through it and give me
suggestions for asking forrevisions.
Um it didn't go well.
And of course, it was like takeit or leave it.
(38:24):
And I I was like, okay, I'llI'll take it, that's fine,
because um that contract has uha time frame.
Yes.
So that they have got mylicensing rights for a certain
time.
Yeah.
And so that's the difference umnow.
But I I would uh part of thereason that I am now very much
(38:47):
uh wanting to just um own all ofmy intellectual property and am
not really, I'm not submittinganywhere, I'm not looking at any
submission processes is becauseof that.
Because the the templates thatthey offer you and what they
offer you, they want to takeeverything and they want to
(39:09):
close the door on you being ableto do anything.
They want to take your worldrights, um, any digital rights,
anything that's coming in thefuture, anything that might be.
Nina Nikolic (39:18):
It's like back in the old new Hollywood days when
they were like, You're doing a10-picture deal, darling.
This is Hollywood, baby.
And you're like, oh God, I hateit.
Like you do picture one, you dopicture two, and then they're
shipping you around, and you'relike, that's not doing this
anymore.
Amra Pajalic (39:35):
No, it really is.
And you know, the fact thattechnology is just constantly
moving and evolving, um, andthat when you own your
intellectual property, thatmeans you can exploit it in all
these different new waysyourself.
But as soon as um someone elseuh you know licensing your
rights and you're signing acontract where they have a lot
(39:57):
more access, you're closingdoors to yourself.
And so even this book that Iwas working on, I I think I
submitted it to a few um prizes.
And then even though Isubmitted it to prizes, I was
like, I don't think I want thisprize.
Because I'm like, if they takeit, it's the first book in the
series.
And then, and and this happensto a lot of authors, which is
(40:20):
like the worst thing, where theystart publishing the series and
then they're like, No, we don'tthink this is working for us,
and then they stop publishingthe series, but they've still
got the rights to the first fewbooks.
No, and then if you docontinue, um it's working to
your disadvantage because if thefirst whatever books they've
(40:42):
got are selling because of yourdoing the promotion, yeah,
you'll never get the rights backto it.
Nina Nikolic (40:47):
So it's like this double money.
It's like a loophole.
I actually have heard similarstuff like that.
Or even like, for example, Ithink it was like during the
writer's strike or something,there were some guys who were
still working on on writing afilm script.
(41:12):
I can't remember which film itwas, it's like on the peripheral
on the peripheral somewhere.
But it it just seems so absurd.
Like if you're not sitting in awriter's room, I I don't know
what the circumstances were, sodon't quote me on this internet.
But um I it it's almost likelike just because actors were on
(41:33):
strike, it doesn't mean thatthey weren't acting in general,
they just weren't activelyworking on productions that were
being struck.
And with writing, the discoursearound it almost felt like
people were reprimanding theseguys for writing at all when it
(41:53):
was that their hands were tiedfor writing on a particular
project or something.
I think they were probablywriting on that project, that's
why that discourse kind ofhappened.
But it felt like people weresaying, like, you must put the
pen down and you must not pickit.
And it's like, but then how doyou maintain your craft
throughout that period?
It's like being on hiatus foryou know a year or God knows how
(42:18):
long it's gonna take for themto get out of stuff, and then
you have to like jump back onthe horse and be like, okay,
God, how do I it's been a while,I've got to work these muscles
again, you know.
Um, and also for some of us, uhyou're probably in the same
boat, it doesn't stop.
Amra Pajalic (42:32):
Our creativity doesn't stop.
It's it's actually like we needthat outlet to live.
And you have to use it when itcomes.
Yes, like you need to release,yeah, because otherwise you
start ruining your creativeprocess.
Um, because now, the past fewyears, I have been freer than I
have ever have.
Thank you, Perry Menapause.
(42:54):
Yeah.
Um there's been a lot ofterrible things that you did to
me.
A lot of terrible things thatyou did, but the one thing that
you have given me um is thisability to just not care.
To just do things and releasethem and just whatever happens,
happens.
I see what that's where thebest work comes from.
Nina Nikolic (43:15):
Yeah.
I'm not gonna lie.
I do feel like in general, theauditions that have been the
most successful, that there's athing in like the voice actor
world specifically of like theset and forget mentality of the
ones that you just kind of throwaway are like the ones that
(43:36):
always work out.
Like you you'll be sick as adog, and this audition comes in,
and you're just like, allright, I'm just gonna do this.
I'm just gonna, I'm just gonnado what I can and I'm gonna send
it.
And then you get the role andyou're like, How?
Did you think that this was andit's because you didn't
overwork it.
(43:57):
You didn't um you didn'tpainstakingly labor over every
detail.
Like there's there's adifference between like
painstakingly laboring over thethe intricacies of of you know
getting the little details inthe clay kind of thing.
But in terms of slapping theclay on the like that, I I think
(44:21):
that there's like a different afundamental difference there of
like overconcerning yourselfwith how it's going to be
received, yes, versus just likethrowing pain at the wall and
just being in the moment anddoing that stuff.
Amra Pajalic (44:34):
Like the sweetest gigs that have been for me,
where I just get thisinspiration for an article.
I sit down, bang it out in 30minutes.
That's where how my blog'sgonna come, leave them for a
day, do a bit of a proofread,yeah.
Um write up a pitch and justemail it.
Yeah.
And then two days later I'mlike, then we get an acceptance.
(44:56):
I'm like, oh, oh, I'm a genius.
Yeah.
But there is something aboutjust following that thread of
inspiration.
Yes.
And, you know, just things, youknow, releasing things and just
see what comes back.
And then also I've gotten tothis point now where I've always
got something out on asubmission.
(45:16):
I'm sure you're listening.
Well, you've always gotsomething out there.
And then recently I had um ajournal go, you know, we've
accepted it for publication.
I couldn't remember what itwas.
Yes, that's what I should be.
I was like, I just have towait.
Nina Nikolic (45:31):
That's why.
I log everything.
Yeah.
Like everything I submit, I logit.
And even then, sometimes Ican't find what I'm doing.
And it's so it's so funnyhaving this discussion because I
was about to say, like, I itfeels it's it's so different
when you're like you set up agoal and you're like, okay, I'm
going to write one blog post permonth.
(45:52):
And then it doesn't come, andyou're like, oh shh.
But then there's an um, this isthis is credit to Amy Smith,
who's like one of my voiceacting like coaches who's like
super polyfaking games.
You should check her out, she'sawesome.
Um, but she is was also aprimary school teacher and was
very adamant on goal setting andhaving your smart goals and
(46:15):
doing all that stuff, whichwhich is actually a structure
that you need to surround yourinspiration, I feel like.
Because if you just haveinspiration and and throw it out
there and whatever, it's likecool, you're doing something,
but also you kind of lose trackof what it is you're building.
Yeah.
I feel like my goals feed intothis weird like manifestation
(46:38):
process.
Amra Pajalic (46:39):
I was just talking to someone about that.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Because I I wrote my goals forthe first time this year and
actually printed them out.
Yeah.
Uh because my daughter does it,she's been doing it for the
report.
Yeah, so we just sat down andwe were doing it together, and
then she's a little bit more.
I was considering maybe doingthat for next year.
And then I I was looking at itrecently and I was like, oh my
(47:02):
gosh, I'm I'm actually nearly ontrack with achieving all of
them.
There's one of them I'm like, Idon't care.
I had this goal and I was goingto weigh myself every month,
but that is never ever.
Nina Nikolic (47:12):
Oh, yeah, you yeah.
You it's like you you do itwith the best intentions.
Yes.
But then you're like, oh,actually, my weight doesn't
actually matter.
It's how I feel.
Yes.
Or whatever.
Amra Pajalic (47:20):
And the other thing is I've realized you can't
control, like, I will have thismany articles published.
Yes.
I will have this many bookspublished.
I can control how many articlesI will pitch.
Yes.
I can control, you know, myoutput and what I will try.
I can't control what will bepicked up.
Yeah.
And so I've learned, like, youknow, to make it about that.
(47:43):
It's like um, you know, tosubmit to, to, you know, to do
these things.
Um so even like that one aboutthe weight, it's not about the
weight.
What it is about is theexercising.
Yes.
And so I have been maintainingthat.
I have been maintaining thatalmost daily, um, you know,
exercising, stamina and stuff.
And so it's not about theweight because the weight, um,
(48:07):
you know, as a woman, we'reconstantly fluctuating.
Oh my god, yeah, yeah.
You I I get sick and I knowthat, you know, I've put on for
two weeks.
Yeah.
And I'm like, I I do not wantto see that number.
I can see it in the mirror.
Thank you very much.
I don't need that depression.
Yeah.
You know, um, but and so I wastalking to someone recently and
I said, I almost feel like, ohmy god, you're you're having so
(48:29):
many things happening, so muchis going on.
Um, but you mean I'm alwaysworking at it.
And I said that there comes apoint where it's almost like
I've been I've been running likethat mouse on the on the
middle.
Churning and churning andchurning, and now it's become
cream.
Um, but it's you know, all ofthe work underneath, and also at
(48:50):
this point, it's almost likeit's not me.
There's like this almost likesomething's taking over me.
Nina Nikolic (48:57):
Some otherworldly thing is happening and things
are just coming, and you'relike, huh.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Like I I had to take a bit of abackseat recently and be like,
like, I felt awful because I waslike, I haven't been, I haven't
been doing any marketing, Ihaven't been doing my cold
contacts.
Amy's gonna, Amy's gonna ringme a new one.
(49:17):
She always tells me I have todo my marketing, I have to do my
marketing.
But I was so busy.
I had so much work to do.
I had all those books to catchup on from when I was sick.
I had all this stuff that Ineeded to do.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgoing to let go, get the stuff
done that I have to get done.
But there's definitely thisthing that has been happening.
(49:38):
I actually have somethingreally funny that I was actually
considering writing a blog postabout, which was in this
manifestation goal setting vein.
In my coaching session withAmy, she was like, Yeah, just
start submitting to rosters andagents and get on those
audiobook rosters.
Like the ultimate for us islike we want Blackstone
Publishing to come to us and askus to audition.
(49:59):
We want people in Random Houseto hire us for books and all
these things and be on theirroster, right?
So you have to go through thatprocess the same way as your
submissions.
You're like, hello, I'm anarrator.
Here's my work, here's stuffabout me, like here's here's why
I would love to be on yourroster.
This is what makes medifferent.
And you sit there and you'resubmitting and submitting and
(50:20):
submitting.
And to this day, I thinkthere's maybe one or two rosters
that I've been on.
One of them um I finally uh gota book with, um, which was
Thrive Audio.
So that book is currently in inprogress to come out, which I
was like so grateful.
Sarah is like the best.
She runs Thrive Audio, andevery time I've auditioned,
(50:40):
she's like, You are my top pick.
But the author ultimately wentin another direction, which
happens, that's fine.
But she was so in my corner allthe time.
And I think she's been one ofthe really like hands-on
producers that I just adoreworking with her truly.
I was working with Amy on um onlike you know, my goals and
stuff, and she's like, Youshould be applying to all of
(51:01):
things, audiobook rosters andthings.
And the thing is that I'll cometo back to the marketing thing
in a second, but um all of theserosters like still won't take
me.
And you don't know what thereason is.
You don't know if it's theythat they think they have people
who already sound like me, ifI'm not experienced enough,
maybe I haven't released enoughbooks for them to be interested
(51:23):
in me, whatever it is, it itdoesn't really matter.
But the the main thing is notyet fine, no worries.
However, in the process ofdoing that stuff, it gets me to
update my samples.
It has me updating my website,updating all of my other
profiles, um, practicingreaching out to people and
pitching myself, um, havingideas to post blogs on social
(51:47):
media and having building thatsnowball piece by piece to move
forward, which ultimately endedup manifesting you reaching out
to me to do your books, RyanBirch reaching out to me to do
her books, Robert finding me todo his books.
So while all of thesepublishers are not allowing me
(52:08):
to audition for their stuff, Idon't get a lot of auditions,
but I do get people comingdirectly to my inbox to hire me
for the rate that I have set,which is, mind you, a lot more
than the MEAA equity rates thatthey have agreed on, which are
incredibly low, the lowest inthe world, barely livable if you
(52:32):
actually calculate it by thehour, it is not minimum wage,
even, um, which is why my rateis what it is, because I have
done the meticulous calculationsand found that it is like a
somewhat livable, at least aminimum wage for that work,
which sounds like a lot whenyou're pitching it, but when you
break it down into like whateverything involves, I'm like, I
(52:54):
know what my value is and Iknow that that's what it is.
So thank you.
But also that one recorded hourof video, that is hours behind.
Oh, yeah.
It would be anywhere betweenlike five and ten or twelve,
like depending on how muchyou're nitpicking at it, how
many revisions you need to do,um, you know, re-revising the
(53:14):
editing, whatever it is.
If you're paying someone elseto edit it, like that can add to
the cost too.
Um, so yeah, all of thosethings.
But then with the marketingside of it, I've started
realizing I had this discussionwith my mum the other day when I
said that I was going throughthat thing of like, I hate this
marketing thing.
I just want to talk to people.
Like, I hate that.
Because the thing is that thereare a lot of creatives who
(53:37):
aren't on social media that youcan't actually reach.
So the only way to reach themis to send them that shitty
email that's just like, hey guy,I you might not know who I am,
but I love your work.
It's really cool.
I'd love to work with yousometime.
Anyway so thank you.
Bye.
Amra Pajalic (53:57):
And that is so hard, that putting yourself so
hard.
Like I'm I'm uh I've had a lotof practice now.
Yeah.
And I am better at it, but Istill kind of need to set up
these steps for myself whereit's like I have to do this
thing first.
So so for example to make itfeel notchy.
Yes.
So for this podcast that I wantto do a history podcast, I'm
(54:20):
like, well, at some point I'mgonna need to approach people
that I want to work on it withme, but I needed to do this
podcast and get the practice andget the comfort zone to be able
to even conceive the thought ofapproaching these people.
Um, because I'm like, you know,these are historians or authors
(54:40):
or you know, survivors, andit's like this whole thing of I
need to be able to be like, Ihave got runners on the board
that I am a credible person tobe able to say I can do this.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And and so it is it's thatpsychological aspect, and then
(55:01):
it's also just doing the bloodything, yeah, and even in the
shop.
Nina Nikolic (55:04):
And you hear all the time like celebrities and
interviews being like, they'relike, How did you come across
this role?
And they're like, like RobertPattinson, he'll just be like, I
love these directors.
And I emailed them and waslike, I love your shit, man.
And then they said they had athing for me.
Like, and the thing is, itmight have to be a two-way
thing.
They might have to be a fan ofRobert Pattinson too, know that
he's an incredible actor, and bea fan of his, know that he has
(55:26):
the reach that he has or thefamiliarity with audiences that
he has, whatever it is.
But you can still find thosepeople at your level, so to
speak.
But I so prefer, I realized Iwas incredibly scared of talking
to people in person, takingtheir time, like doing all that
(55:46):
kind of stuff.
But I love it so much more.
And I started learning that.
Like I used to be afraid of, Iused to be a phone scared
person, like not liking talkingto people on the phone.
And now I'm like, I actuallylike this so much better because
we can get more things out inthe open and exchange more ideas
and get a better sense of eachother.
And if ultimately we don't, wearen't, we don't quite connect,
(56:10):
that's great.
Yeah, I think it was still timewell spent.
But then I find more quicklywho the people that I really do
want to gravitate to and workwith and all that kind of stuff.
And I was telling mom how I waslike, I do all this LinkedIn
stuff, but I don't think itworks for me.
And I don't think I've likeanything has come from it.
And ultimately, you are tryingto get work, you're trying to
(56:30):
collaborate to people, you'retrying to pay pay bills and all
these things, but I want to dothat with people I enjoy doing
it with.
And I think that made thedifference for me was instead of
just kind of shilling out theseemails of like, hello, I do
this, here's my demo, hello, Ido this, here's my demo, hello,
I do this, here's my demo.
I don't just want to do thatbecause ultimately they are my
demo is going to have to suitsomething that they have going
(56:53):
on, which is a separateconversation.
So while I do still have to dothat, that's just part of the
business, and I kind of have tobe okay with doing that part.
It's kind of like the what wasit, Scorsese or someone who was
like one for them, one for me.
I yes, yes.
That's kind of my approach tomarketing now.
Yeah.
Where it's kind of like the onefor them is like the one I have
(57:14):
to do.
Yeah.
The one for me is like, I lovethis person's work, they're an
incredible creative mind.
I I would kill to touch whatthey what the the aura that they
have or whatever it is, and andjust meet them, chat, whatever.
If something comes up, awesome,but I I feel so much better
when I have a rapport withsomeone that I genuinely like
(57:37):
their work.
And I like surrounding myselfwith people that by osmosis I
just feel nourished by.
Amra Pajalic (57:43):
Yes, and that's the thing, you want to spend
time with people who really doinspire you.
Yeah.
Um, because that's also it'sabout this creative life is the
creating, but it's also justfeeding yourself, feeding your
soul in a sense, so you've gotthat and those moments.
Nina Nikolic (58:02):
And sometimes that's not even so much just
like getting along with people.
Like I can I can still makeincredible work with people that
we might not on a personallevel, like vibe or hang out or
whatever.
Like we won't like go to coffeeand just talk for three hours
or whatever.
But we can go to coffee,exchange really cool ideas, get
in the booth together, makesomething really cool.
(58:23):
Like, not every person that youwork with, even creatively, has
to be your person.
Yes, but it does help to havepeople that are your people that
also you can make incredibleart with to like supplement and
feed the other relationshipsthat you have too.
Yeah, because that wholeecosystem.
Yeah, which is like that allthe whole manifesting thing to
(58:44):
me.
Like I was like this thismanifesting thing feels really
like woo-woo and whatever, butthere is actually a structure to
it that results in this thingcalled manifestation.
Amra Pajalic (58:54):
And I think um, since I've started doing uh
posts every year, doingreflective posts and looking at
what I have achieved.
That's really helped becauseyou know it's just it's about
what have I achieved?
It's what have I done in theyear, just making every year
sort of count that I amscratching, that I am trying.
Nina Nikolic (59:13):
I need to get better at doing that's one thing
I need to get better at doingis like my review stuff because
my weekly review has justbasically become a six-hour
block where I can finally tickoff shit that I haven't had time
that now in the review I'veseen that I haven't done all
these things.
Yes.
So I'm not looking at what Ihave done, I'm looking at what I
haven't done yet, and I'm like,oh yeah, I should do that.
(59:33):
And I start doing it.
And then six hours later, I'mlike, I haven't reviewed
anything, I'll just keepworking.
Amra Pajalic (59:38):
Yeah, I don't but I finally get it done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I started doing like a weeklywriting update.
Oh, okay.
And I've stopped on a littlebit because um I've been just
done well and things.
But I'm like, I really likedthat, just the weekly thing for
myself.
But then yeah, at the end ofthe year, and the one thing that
I've found that has been thebest thing I've ever done is the
news and events page on mywebsite.
(59:59):
site and so that um all thenews is just in the one place so
when I'm doing a review at theend of the year I'm just like
it's all there you can see whatyeah it's all there all the
things that I've done that arelike my news and then events
that I've done.
Nina Nikolic (01:00:13):
Like your accomplishments are basically
chronicled for you.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:16):
It's all chronicled for me and then like
I do a blog post and I hyperlinkit.
And so then at the end of theyear I'm just like I could just
pull it out and I can go wellthat has been good.
And so that's um every yearI've been like okay moving.
Well I mean this has been sucha great conversation I've been
on forever to go on but withoutthe camera now we're gonna have
(01:00:39):
lunch and we're gonna give eachother.
unknown (01:00:42):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:42):
But thank you so much we were going to do this
catch up anyway.
So um so much great stuff interms of thinking about the
creative life and and the otherside of it.
And there's so manycommonalities.
Yeah.
Nina Nikolic (01:00:53):
And I'll have to come back next time so we can
talk about tools.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:56):
Yes we're looking to and then we just you know so
next time we'll do the smallbusiness part of it.
Yes yeah yeah okay thank youthank you for tuning into Amra's
armchair anecdotes if youenjoyed today's episode don't
forget to subscribe and followfor more insights stories and
(01:01:17):
inspiration from my armchair toyours remember every story
begins with a single word
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pailich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how-to guidesat amrailh.com slash podcast.
Now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
Today I've got Nina Nikolic.
She's a Serbian Australianactor based between Melbourne
and Sydney.
She's known for her playfullygritty presence and versatility.
(00:46):
She brings grounded imaginativecharacters and narration to
life across video games,animation, film, audio, dramas,
audiobooks, commercial, andcorporate work.
All things.
So audiences may recognize heras Grandma in Fruitbust,
Percival in Tainted Grail, TheFall of Avalon, and campaigns
(01:10):
for Google and Weight Watchers.
A lifelong gamer and Twitchpartner under the handle Kit
Kerrigan.
She thrives in live,collaborative environments with
fellow creatives.
Off mic, she's also a booklover and uh has a soft spot for
cozy romances.
Yes.
Medical dramas.
Oh my medical dramas.
(01:31):
Oh my god.
Speculative fiction and dogs.
And we have worked togetherwhere she has been my narrator
on three projects on um, she'sbeen Sabiha's Dilemma, Alma's
Loyalty, and The Climb, whichwas a dual-nerated young adult
romance.
Yes.
So thank you so much forcoming.
Thank you for having me.
(01:51):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we've we've kindof been working together for a
while.
We keep in touch.
And then what was like, oh,would you a catch up?
And I was like, yes.
Can you do a podcast too whileyou're here?
Nina Nikolic (02:02):
Yes, because I remembered it was like so long
since we were in touch.
And I remembered that your nextlaunch was coming up, but I
couldn't make it.
And I was like, we have to havecoffee.
Oh no, I'm so I want tocelebrate.
I want to celebrate the launch.
And then this came up.
So I was like, yes.
Amra Pajalic (02:18):
Well, see, this is the thing now.
We can have like catch-ups withpeople and have a conversation
on camera.
Yeah.
As a great memory and alearning tool.
Um, but you know, just to havesome fun.
And I think um you're a reallygreat person to talk uh, because
I've been trying to talk topeople about creative life, not
also just talking to people whohave interesting stories to
(02:39):
tell.
And, you know, you are workingfull-time as a voiceover artist.
I'm trying to, yeah.
I mean that's amazing.
So you've got that perspectiveof the creative aspect in terms
of the voiceover work and youknow the acting that you do in
um voiceover and also whenyou're narrating books um and
(02:59):
then games and stuff, but alsothe the perspective of being a
small business and and having todo all of that stuff.
Nina Nikolic (03:06):
Change it, change the hats, as people say, which
is still like a skill that Ithink comes over time, which
I've been learning a lot.
Like I'll have one day whereI'm complaining to my mom about
like, I hate marking, I have tokeep emailing people, and I'm so
annoying, and they must hateme.
And why don't people call meback?
And oh, they're probably justbusy.
(03:28):
I'll get them next time.
And then I sit at my computerand I'm like, hello, I am a bad
bitch, and uh I would like towork with you.
And I think it works reallygreat.
And I really think we shouldwork together at some point.
Anyway, love your stuff.
Like, and then you get off thecomputer, you're like, no one
loves me.
Amra Pajalic (03:45):
I'm never gonna work again.
This is awful.
It is, you really have toconstantly put yourself out.
Nina Nikolic (03:52):
Yeah, you know, like I'll take it personally,
and like, yeah, it's it's aninteresting space to like be in
the place where you have to beyour own spokesperson.
Otherwise, no one's gonna knowthat you exist.
When I saw, I don't know, oneof those inspirational reels or
something that was like, you canbe as good actor as you want to
be, but if no one sees it, orif you don't tell anyone about
(04:14):
it, no one's gonna know.
Amra Pajalic (04:16):
Well, that's the thing.
And it's like we're we'reconstantly paddling and kind of
like, look at me, look at me.
Um, but you have to because andand and things do happen.
We do get gigs from socialmedia, we do get gigs from you
know, people referring us, orlike my last gig um at a library
where I did a workshop camefrom meeting someone at a party.
(04:37):
Um, and it took like a year,and then they and I emailed them
afterwards.
I was like, oh, just followingup, uh, these are some workshops
that I do.
Crickets.
Yeah, and then a year laterthey're like, oh, we met all
that time ago.
And I'm like, oh now I'm gonnabe able to do it.
Nina Nikolic (04:53):
Yeah, exactly.
And it it's and sometimes Ithink you forget how those
things interact.
Like there are, I consider, Iknow that literally just before
this chat, we were talking abouthow much I hate social media,
because it just feels it feelsso effortful sometimes.
And sometimes I have thosemoments of inspiration where I'm
like, this would be a reallyfun reel to make.
(05:14):
I'm gonna do that, and then Inever get a chance to actually
finish it.
I like I'll like record it andthen something comes up that I
have to work on, and then itjust gets chucked in the pile or
whatever.
Um, but it just the thing is, Iconsider it to be like it's
almost like a proof of life bodyof work.
(05:35):
So when I am in addition to mywebsite, because your website
can be there and just sit thereand it has your stuff on it, and
you've got your SEO going andall those things.
But the social media side ofthings, I consider really
important as much as Idisgruntledly try to keep up
with it.
It is very important for mewhen I'm looking at people, I'm
(05:58):
like, are they still active?
What type of person are they?
What type of stuff do theylike?
All of those things comethrough your social media stuff
that you share.
Like my the things I share onTwitter are completely different
to what I share on LinkedIn andInstagram and whatever.
Sometimes they cross over alittle bit.
But when you consider all ofthose things together, I think
(06:19):
that's the the tipping point fora lot of people with me.
Like they might find my umnarration reels, for example.
I think narration is probablythe biggest one where I think
yourself and another author thatI worked with recently, Ryan
Birch, I think both of you foundmy reels on the Aussie
(06:40):
narrators website.
Amra Pajalic (06:43):
Where I was like looking at all the different
narrators in Australia.
But then I couldn't backtrackfrom telling you which one
because I'd gone into this darkhall where I'd spend like 500
tabs over here.
Yeah, always.
Nina Nikolic (06:56):
But so, but that that website does have my reels
on it, and it's obviously aplace where lots of people go
SEO-wise, Aussie narrators,right?
So you're gonna go there as thefirst port of call.
But then it also has like my myblurb, my social media.
So you listen to the words,you're like, okay, yeah, I kind
of like these.
How do I get in touch with thisperson?
What else is there about thisperson?
You go to the website, you seea little bit more about me, but
(07:19):
then you hit up the social mediaand you're like, oh, I actually
want to talk to this person.
And that's I think where a lotof stuff culminates for me is
that tiny little extraconnection that's like, oh, I
actually can talk to thisperson.
Yeah.
Um, and I'll either get like aDM or or an email that's like,
(07:41):
oh, hey, I I saw I just want youto do this walk or whatever.
Um, and I'm like, oh, cool,how'd you find me?
Amra Pajalic (07:49):
And I'm learning that too.
I'm learning to ask people, howdid you find me?
Because then I'm like, oh, thatthing works.
Yeah.
Exactly.
I think that's the thing.
I struggled with social mediain the beginning because
honestly, it feels like you'rewalking out naked for for like a
part of it until you sort ofget a get a style.
And so I had to force myself.
I actually made a goal where Iwas going to post every day just
(08:11):
to build up my reps.
Yeah.
Just to just to be like, okay,I've just released, just
release.
Um, and you know, I I guessit's easier for me also because
I figured out I can do thingswhere I can do book reels and
things where I'm not on camera,I'm creating um social media
assets.
But for you, it's a little bitdifferent because it's all about
(08:33):
what you can create and youknow, like your voice, and and
so it's a lot more onerous.
Nina Nikolic (08:40):
Yeah, and a lot of the time I can't access.
So there's there's this thingwhere some people say you can't
just be posting all of your workall the time.
Like no one wants you to gloat,and no one wants all of it.
I want you to gloat.
But the thing is, you'refabulous.
If you don't post the stuffthat you've worked on, A, how
are people going to know whatyou've worked on?
(09:01):
And B, how are people gonnaknow what it sounds like and
what you can bring?
How are people gonna actuallysee your performance in various
things if they haven't playedthat game or they haven't done
this or whatever?
So you have to show your, likeyou have to build how prolific
you are in that way while alsoshowing all of the behind the
scenes stuff, what I do all thetime, your personality stuff,
(09:21):
all those things.
Um, but a lot of the work thatI do also either doesn't come
out for like five years, doesn'tcome out at all because it's
internal, or is impossible totrack down and impossible to get
people to send you thematerial.
Yeah, once it's once it's downthere.
So um, so that is a process initself where like once a quarter
(09:44):
you sit down and you're like,all right, which of these
projects have come out?
These have all been like theseare all the ones that I I track
all my stuff.
And so I have all of myprojects that are in progress,
the ones that need a quote, theones that have been paid, the
ones that are pending payment.
I have my once once a monthmoney day, which I is halfway.
(10:04):
The chasing of the money, whichI have to the I I nearly had
one unpaid invoice.
I have never had an unpaidinvoice.
You've managed to touch thecrook, get that, get it over the
line.
Yeah, yeah.
The last one was big thanks tomy agent, she's tenacious.
So that was one of those ones,and bless her.
(10:25):
Um, that's Sarah McLeod at BigMouth Works, by the way.
Love you, Sarah.
Thank you so much.
You're the best.
Um, but largely I think it'sbecause I I want to follow up on
that stuff.
Like the sooner, the s I a lotof feedback that I get actually
from clients is how quickly Iaction things.
You do, unless I'm nearlydying.
Amra Pajalic (10:46):
No, no, no.
Well, you've always been alittle bit more than a little
bit.
Yeah, during one of my books.
But like they were just sogreat at communicating and
keeping in touch.
And then what I loved also inwas that social media, you were
like um providing outtakes andstuff, and oh yeah, those were
so funny.
Um, like just that behind thescenes, because I um also
(11:12):
arranged for my memoir.
And so I have just a tiny, tinytaste about how hard it is.
unknown (11:19):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (11:19):
Because I I was in the studio four days a week or
five days for um six hours.
Nina Nikolic (11:28):
For how long?
Just for the one week or forthe week.
Amra Pajalic (11:31):
Yeah, right.
Uh and uh it was a 70,000-wordbook.
And um, and it was so becauselike, you know, and and you know
about this where you'reswitching between words.
So now I had words in Bosnianthat I would say, and then I had
to go back to English, and mytongue would do really weird
things.
Yeah.
And then I'm pretentious.
I I used all these words in mywriting.
(11:54):
I don't know how to pronounce.
I know how to write them.
I know how to write thembecause of you know all the
correct.
Yeah.
And so then I was like, and sothe producer would have to like
find, you know, the thepronunciation, then we'd have to
practice.
And then she'd be like, Yeah,you didn't quite nail it, let's
do that again.
Nina Nikolic (12:13):
I yeah, I have to do that myself all the time as
well.
Like, um, I'm currently readinguh The Real Fight, the Kim
Dalton memoir, and that's youknow, all related to cancer and
her treatment and all of themedicines that were in the city.
Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
The organs and the doctors'names and all um these things.
(12:35):
And so I her partner at thetime is the one who's who's
doing this book now,re-releasing it for um, I think
it was 20 years since shepassed.
So it's like an anniversaryrelease kind of thing, together
with the audio version.
Um, and I had to message Robertone day in the booth and I was
like, hey Robert, um, I have alist of words for you.
(12:59):
Uh, and I was like rattling offall these words.
I'm like, can you just let meknow if these are correct?
Thank you.
And so I have like 10 voicememos from Robert in my face of
just like telling me Taekwondoterminology, what he remembers,
the names of the medicationsthat are, and how closely they
(13:19):
work.
Because some stuff, you know,you do as much research as you
can, obviously, to prepare.
But one thing that I've learnedis there's different ways to
pronounce things too.
So there might be a way that Ipronounce a word that a client
just prefers it pronounced adifferent way, which is totally
fine, but it's something that Ithen need to wrap my head around
(13:42):
every time.
Or even sometimes I'llinterchange pronunciations.
Amra Pajalic (13:46):
Yes.
Nina Nikolic (13:46):
Well, you'll you do it when I had that versus
anesthetist.
I can't even say it.
I caught myself in the middleof this book, I said
anaesthetist twice.
I had to, I had to look it upto double check the British
pronunciation just in casebecause I was like anesthetist,
anaesthet, anesthetist, and itwas a whole thing.
And then I caught myself thenext time because it also
(14:08):
depends on the context of theword and what words are
surrounding it.
And so I naturally saidanesthetist the next time.
And then I was like, I don'tknow, we have to keep this
consistent.
I'm gonna go back and redothat.
So yeah, it is like all ofthose things, um, as well as the
style of the writer can becompletely different.
Um I think in two of the morerecent books, there's uh a style
(14:32):
of writing that um that kind ofswaps can conjunctions.
Uh so instead of like, youknow, um it had had or something
like that, I would just say ithad.
And so then I'll have to catchthat and be like, oh, it had had
(14:52):
this thing.
Like even small stuff like thatis gonna be picked up as being
not accurate.
Yes.
So, and and can completelychange the flow of a sentence,
the author's voice, that kind ofthing.
So that kind of stuff Idefinitely try to fix.
Sometimes if it's like anobvious typo, I'll I'll fix that
and then button check.
And that's the brilliant thing.
Amra Pajalic (15:13):
Like when I was doing my memoir, you know,
picking up all the typos, andand one of the things I loved
about having my books narratedis um all the little tiny
things, because you know,there's there's things that you
pick up, the things that arepicked up by my by me, by my
proofreader, by you know, allthe software that I use.
Uh and then there's the stuffthat until you read it out loud,
(15:35):
yeah.
Nina Nikolic (15:36):
It's just a tiny thing.
Yes.
But you're like, oh yeah, it ismissing like just an A or
something.
Yeah.
Like there was just somethingin there.
Amra Pajalic (15:44):
And most people don't even notice, maybe, when
they're reading, and I meanthere's some eagle equal mind.
Um, but it is it is the bestway.
Um, but you know, I can't readit myself because it's too much.
Nina Nikolic (16:01):
And it it's like and stuff like that isn't
usually a big deal or anything,but in terms of the narrator um
honouring the original text,that's the kind of thing that
becomes a conversation of like,is this the type of because a
lot the most common one that Ifind is it looks like the author
(16:22):
has written a passage one way,and then they're like, oh no,
actually I kind of want tochange the tense of this or and
restructured it, and yeah, andjust and changed one word or
missed another one, which like Iknow when I'm reviewing my
writing, I do that all the time.
So it'll be something likethat, where it's like, did you
want it in this tense or thistense?
Because there's kind of both inthere or whatever.
(16:43):
So yeah, just stuff like that II try to catch and use software
and stuff for that as well, andthen also like manually go
through when I'm editing.
So I'll do like a firstproofing pass with um with the
software, uh, go through, do allthe pickups, and then do
another listen, actually justsitting with my headphones on
(17:05):
with my laptop, and I'mlistening, listening, and like,
no, that gap was too long.
Let me edit that.
All right.
Now that sounded like shit.
I'm gonna fix that.
Amra Pajalic (17:15):
It is, it is because um, you know, there's a
process.
So when I, you know, wasgetting you to narrate my books,
I had to um try and go throughall the words, and that's why I
I was looking for someone whoshared the same language group
as me, because I have um a lotof you know, Bosnian words that
are the same as Serbian words.
Nina Nikolic (17:37):
Um try my best.
Amra Pajalic (17:40):
Yeah, but at least you can you can sort of break
your tongue because it is aboutum, you know, that that ability
to sort of get the right sounds.
Like even with my daughter, Iwas practicing with her the
other day.
She doesn't really know how tospeak the language, but because
she's been around it enough, shecan't pronounce properly when
when we're practicing.
(18:01):
Yeah.
Um, because, you know, it's avery harsh language and our
consonants are really harsh.
And and uh, you know, I knowthat when I talk to um my
husband in front of my daughter,she's like, Lee, why don't you
move on?
Why are you yelling?
Let's have a conversation,darling.
This is what we sound like.
Um, and so you know, it's justit's just that that sort of
(18:24):
thing.
So, you know, like ideally inif you're wanting um you're
working with a client, so it'syou know, getting when I sent
you the file, actually you gothrough the process of what you
want if you're working withsomeone who is doing a book.
Nina Nikolic (18:40):
Um so for me, I feel like I'm a lot more
flexible than some people thatI've seen.
I mean, like I know that peopledo have their structure because
I I feel like any kind ofstructural rules come out of
necessity, right?
You have one too many peoplewho like are a bit too much, and
you have to have thoseboundaries.
(19:01):
But um, generally speaking, thepeople that I work with have
been super cool and really,really nice.
And so my process is usuallypretty, pretty loose, pretty
open, pretty collaborative.
Um, I'll make sure that I send,like, there'll be like a
shorter original um sample, kindof like an audition.
Anytime someone approaches mefor anything, I still basically
(19:25):
audition for them.
I don't call it that, but forme, that's what it is, because I
want to make sure, even if theythink that they want to work
with me, I want to make surethat they're still happy with my
voice and my performance intheir context.
Because they've heard my demosand like, oh yeah, I really like
your stuff, blah, blah, blah,they'd love to work with you.
And I'm like, that's great.
(19:45):
But also, I don't know how manyother people you're
approaching.
I don't know if my budget isgonna fit if if my rates are
gonna fit your budget, how ifwe're going to work together,
you know, your workflow might becompletely different to mine.
I try to, I try to, you know,accommodate as much as I can.
But the first step is alwaysgoing to be that initial
audition.
Because even just from that, umI I encourage lots of feedback
(20:13):
so that in that sample stage youcan really iron out things like
pacing, tone.
Um, like in the real fightrecently, um, you know, Robert
was super happy with all thesamples.
He was like, Do you go ahead,love everything, love it, love
it, love, love, love it.
But he wanted to, you know,give her parents some respect of
(20:34):
listening to the recordings aswell and and getting their
thoughts and things.
And I'm totally open to that,obviously.
Like he's the rights holder,but we also want to make sure
that her family is comfortablewith how everything is, you
know, portrayed.
Um, and so her mother had somefeedback on like she's a teacher
as well.
Um, and so she had somefeedback on like the cadence of
(20:58):
the narration slowing down thepace a little bit, things like
that.
Um, which is all totally validfeedback, and it might feel a
bit weird for like for me tokind of like, okay, but that was
my that was my take on it.
Like, that's not helpful.
So I'm like, great, good.
Now I know I have a benchmarkfor how they're happy for it to
(21:20):
sound, which means I can takethat reference it whenever I'm
feeling a bit weird, like we allhave our days where sometimes
we feel better than others.
That can come through nowperformance as well.
So I have like a benchmark togo back to of like this is the
version they were happy with, Ican kind of move forward with
that.
And then, yeah, with thepronunciations and stuff, I try
(21:42):
to get as much of those out ofthe way before the process
starts, like character voices,things like that, um, as
possible.
Inevitably, there's gonna bepickups or you know, stuff like
that.
Um, with my fiction stuff left.
I I don't think it's commonpractice um for authors to get
(22:05):
like a final approval of theaudiobook, but I do if they if
the publisher holds the rights,yeah.
They'll just be like, this iswhat you get.
Yeah, you've approved the first15 minutes and then the rest of
it, that's what you get.
Um, I'm a I am a lot morecollaborative in that way, where
um I will encourage if peoplewant to that they give it a
(22:28):
final listen, make sure you'rehappy.
If it and honestly, everysingle person who has gone
through that process has been socompletely reasonable.
Um I could have communicatedbetter on with with Ryan Birch
on the last one because she washighlighting all these big gaps,
and I'm like, it hasn't beenedited yet.
I'm so sorry.
But but things like um, like,oh, I actually intended for uh
(22:54):
this this particular line wasactually like this kind of
circumstance.
And I'm like, oh yeah, totally,get it.
I'll just do that as a pickupas well because I'm I'm already
working through my other pickupstoo.
So I bundle in those notestogether.
I'll like hold on um on doingall of my revisions and pickups
for accuracy stuff because theremight be something that needs
(23:18):
to be fixed that they also hadfeedback on anyway.
unknown (23:21):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (23:22):
So that would kind of go into the same who might
not have listened to audiobooksmight not realize how much it is
a performance.
Because like the first time Ilistened to um Sandina's Dilemma
and you narrating it, I wascrying.
I was crying.
I was crying.
Wasn't I crying?
You were crying at certainpoints too, because we were both
(23:42):
like, oh my god, that scene.
Nina Nikolic (23:44):
I don't know if there's been a book that I have
not actually cried in the booth,and I think some of those tags
ended up in the final.
Amra Pajalic (23:50):
Yeah, but there worked because that's what I did
for my member.
There were certain scenes whereI was reading it out and I
started crying, and I'm like,oh, you know, like I had that
emotion.
But for me, I was crying likebecause, you know, certain
scenes, but I was just cryingfrom the joy of, you know, like
it's it's a medium where it is aperformance.
And so even though so I'm oneof those people that, you know,
(24:13):
I close my eyes and I seepictures in my head.
And so for me, I loveaudiobooks because they are
bringing the pictures to lifefor me.
Um I love audiobooks alsobecause you know, so many times
you get the names wrong.
Oh, yeah.
You know, even recently um mydaughter and I, she read
(24:34):
Beloved, and then we werewatching the movie, and she was
like, Oh, that's Setha.
Um she was like I was readingthat as Steve.
Yeah, Steve, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like all the namesthat you don't realise.
Like even uh recently my friendUm Blood Moon Bride, Demet, who
I interviewed, and she's likeRaya.
(24:56):
And I'm like Raya.
You know, so it's like thatside of it, but then it's also
the performances within where,as you said, you know,
characters have voices and youdevelop like a personality, and
and then when they're speaking,um, and you know, as as a
writer, you're trying to removeas many speech tags as you can,
(25:18):
because uh, you know, itshouldn't be every line he sent,
she said, he sent, she sentthere should be.
Nina Nikolic (25:23):
And sometimes you're and then as the narrator,
sometimes you're trying to workout who who actually said what.
Yes, because it would makesense knowing, like when you
hear the character voice, butthen also you're like, wait a
second, yeah, we lost track.
Yeah, and I lost track, I needto highlight everything.
Um, yeah, totally.
And I think in terms of thevoices too, um like as a voice
(25:50):
actor, you try to stretch, youknow, your cadence, your voice,
your pronunciations, all ofthose things to have a diverse
enough range to kind ofdifferentiate things.
But most of the time, you knowhow people keep talking about
voice acting is acting, darling.
A lot of that just comes downto what is each character's
(26:11):
demeanor.
Because that will likeinherently change the way that
they speak and how they sound,and like if there's any if
there's any notes on theirphysicality or um how they look,
how they behave, those kinds ofthings will always inform what
the voice kind of sounds likebecause you just kind of become
(26:34):
that character is like a reallyzhuzy way to say it.
Amra Pajalic (26:39):
But I don't know, like that's the thing with it,
you know, and when I'm writingit, I'm I'm imagining that
character.
And when you are performing it,you are bringing that to life.
So it's it's the same thing interms of you know the creative
side, yes.
Um, but there is there is somuch to it, and I think these
(27:00):
days, like, you know, there isthe AI narration because some
people don't care about voiceand some people speed up and
stuff like that.
So they're like, you know, theAI is fine.
Um, but for a lot of us, forme, I love the performance.
Nina Nikolic (27:16):
We actually want to connect to it as well.
And the thing is, so like onthe AI stuff, right?
Like, I I love that foraccessibility.
I spoke to you about that.
Like the thing is, especiallyif um the the problem isn't so
much that it exists as a tool,it's how people use that tool in
(27:37):
in ways that don't actuallybenefit humanity.
Yeah.
Like there's a benefit of likeum for for people who want who
can't do a narrator just yet foran official audiobook, would
love to do it in future, butthere are people who physically
cannot read their book rightnow.
(27:58):
Brilliant.
Like that's a it's wonderfulthat that exists for them.
And I think a lot of peoplekind of disregard that about it
being available.
Yes.
Um, and then obviously theother problem is where those AI
voices have come from, how theywere developed, are they are
they developed ethically, whicha lot of the time to keep things
(28:19):
that cheap, they haven't been,which is a whole other
discussion that could take 4,000million years.
But at the end of the day, likeI think the general consensus
that I've seen is that onlyhumans can connect with humans
on that level.
Yes.
And so that's like it kind ofdepends what you want.
Amra Pajalic (28:40):
If you want the if you want like a team movie, you
want it depends where you areand what exactly and what the
purpose is, yeah, what theintention is.
When I'm listening to anaudiobook, I want that human
narration.
And for me, the voice is veryimportant.
Um, I've stopped audiobooks ifthe voice is there's only one
that I pursued because I reallyliked the story.
(29:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Um and the voice was just likebut I was like, oh my god.
Nina Nikolic (29:07):
I've heard that too, but then I became
accustomed to it.
Amra Pajalic (29:10):
Yeah.
Nina Nikolic (29:11):
And I was like, oh, and now I'm kind of sad this
is over.
Like there's a point whereyou're like, oh now it's fine.
Yeah, which was quiteinteresting.
Like it it definitely took me awhile to like get accustomed to
it.
And and that's the thing too,is like not every voice or every
style is gonna be foreverybody.
No.
Um yeah, I don't know, it's oneof those things.
(29:33):
And also with with characters,again, um getting it it's also
interesting to see because likeas the narrator, you want to
make sure every single characterhas their like distinct voice
or whatever.
But the thing is, a lot of thetime I've realized the author,
there are some characters thataren't necessarily that
(29:54):
important, which I don't know.
Yeah, until you get to until Iand yeah, and or until I hear
from The author, like, because Idon't know if there's gonna be
more books in the series, Idon't know which character is
gonna become more prominent,stuff like that.
So when I was working withRyan, um, she sent me, I asked
her for samples of like how doyou picture these people
sounding?
(30:15):
And she actually found clips onYouTube of like various people
that was like, I kind of imaginethem sounding like in this
realm.
So there's more there, um, Ican't remember, there was a
sportswoman who I can't quiteremember what her name was, but
it was a more of that kind ofum, you know, grounded tomboy
(30:37):
kind of energy.
Like, you know, when you seeany like soccer roo from the
women's team on the news talkingabout it's basically like that
vibe, right?
And I'm like, got it.
I know those, I know thosepeople, like understood.
And then there's you know, anan influencer who's from like an
influencer from Queensland orsomething that has her own
(30:59):
particular way of speaking.
She's like, I I picture thisperson speaking like that.
Yeah.
But I knew from the amount ofsamples that she sent me and who
she sent me the samples for,that those were the ones that
were the most important to focuson.
And so therefore, if she didn'tsend me samples for other
characters, they're probably notthat much of a priority.
(31:20):
And I can either take libertieswith them if I feel like it, or
like there's just a little bitmore wiggle room there for how
much emphasis to put on howdistinct you make each of them,
and how much each of thosecharacters are gonna be in a
scene together.
And then, like, that was thethe first round of feedback was
like, oh, the two protagonistsfeel like they're too similar
(31:42):
because it was a um lesbianromance.
Oh, I so there's the twodistinct.
Yeah, so they really did needto like differentiate a bit more
because they're gonna be inmost of the book just talking to
each other in dialogue.
So it's like, okay, cool, I'llI'll have to like just mold this
stuff, pull pull out aspects ofthings differently for each
(32:03):
one.
Um, and then yeah, do bring upa sample, great.
Move on.
So yeah, it's a fun process.
Amra Pajalic (32:11):
And also we'll we were talking about AI earlier.
We had a bit of a kerfuffle,you and I, during the AI find
away voices thing.
Nina Nikolic (32:17):
Oh, yeah, everyone had a kerfuffle.
Amra Pajalic (32:20):
Yeah, where where I was using, and I still I'm
still using them, um, althoughthey've changed names now, and
all this, probably because ofthis.
Yeah.
Um, but they were called FindAway Voices, and I was using
them as the distributor for myaudiobooks, and then they um
updated their contracts ofservice that they owned the
rights to your voice, eventhough I was only giving And
(32:41):
they were just selling them toSpotify.
Nina Nikolic (32:43):
Yeah, and now Spotify has a marketplace to
create ads on Spotify for you.
And I wonder where they get allof those voices from for that
service.
Yeah, so there's always um thatthat's the interesting.
And then they kind ofbackpedaled and we're like, oh,
but no, but that's not what wemean.
And it's like, yeah, but wealso can see, like, the thing is
(33:04):
you can say that, but from whatwe're seeing, the fact that you
tried to do this, and now youhave this magical service that
has come up for people to createads for their business
magically out of the blue withyour AI and where did you get
the tools from?
Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (33:21):
It's just like, you know, uh Chat GPT, it
sourced all these books that areyou know copyright.
And yeah, it's a great tool,but at the end of the day, it
got the stuff, you know, fromelsewhere and that needs to be
addressed.
Because if you know, I want toput um give the license for my
books to be used in AI, I needto be compensated.
(33:43):
If you are going to provideyour voice where they're going
to be cloning it and using it,you need to be compensated for
that.
Nina Nikolic (33:51):
I've now had to start putting so in the back
matter of the audiobooks.
Um, I got the blessing of thethe authors to do this and the
rights authors to do this, butyou know how there's like the
copyright um back matter stuff.
Thank you for listening.
This is the end of this bookwritten by so-and-so, narrated
by Nina Nikolich.
(34:11):
Um, the text version of thisbook was published in blah,
blah, blah, copyright held bythis person.
No portion of this book may beused to reproduce blah blah
blah.
And I've also been adding noportion of this recording may be
used to reproduce thenarrator's voice without express
written authorization from NinaNikolich as well.
So they have their like youcan't use our material, and
(34:32):
there is also you cannot use myvoice print from this recording.
Because now there there areservices which I haven't I have
not seen anyone else do that.
I don't know if anyone elsedoes that, but I felt that it
was necessary to at leastinclude it if I'm already doing
that for the um content itself.
Um, just as a failsafe, Iguess.
Amra Pajalic (34:55):
Like Well, might may as well, because we know
that that that has beenhappening.
There have been attempts to dothat.
Even um there was a kerfufflein the publishing world where um
when AI licensing wasavailable, publishers were
trying to get authors to signdeals so they would get 50% of
(35:15):
the AI licensing rights.
And so it's like um, and nowthey're probably trying to add
that to the boilerplatecontract.
And the problem is when you'renew, you sign anything and you
give away everything.
Nina Nikolic (35:30):
Well, especially when it becomes standard.
Yes.
In a lot of contracts, it hasjust become standard to put that
stuff in there, and it makesyou think as an artist and
whatever, when every singlecontract you get has that
verbiage in it, you're like,wait, can I contest this?
Like, is this something that Ican push back on when I
(35:51):
negotiate?
And it's like, yes, it is.
You should.
But the circumstances of everydeal that we do, particularly
with big publishers, bigcompanies, all of these things,
makes you feel like you don'thave that leverage and you're
not able to do that.
And a lot of actors lost jobsduring the strikes and things
(36:12):
for that reason.
They were like, I I don'tconsent to doing this, you know,
screening process or whatever.
And they're like, Great, don'tcome in tomorrow.
We'll find someone else.
Um, and so to that degree, it'skind of like, well shit, how do
you, how do you then, as alittle artist trying to make
(36:33):
your way in the world in theworld, gain enough leverage to
be in Zendaya's shoes, whofamously says, make sure you
read every single one of yourcontracts, sit there with a
highlighter, go through it witha fine-tooth comb, ask
questions, push back, do allshe's she's like talked about
that numerous times.
(36:55):
And I think that's one of thethings that made me feel more
empowered to um so thank you,Zendaya.
Appreciate it.
I don't know if she'll everlisten to this or not.
Well dreamed, but we'll dream.
But the fact that people in herposition can come out and say
those things, and she's sosupremely successful and doing
so, so well for herself, youknow, knock on would we ever get
(37:19):
to be in that position to havethat much leverage to be able to
say, no, I won't do this.
We we need to fix this, I won'tagree to it.
We'll have to either add this,negotiate on that, blah, blah,
blah.
But the fact of the matter isthat's business.
Yes.
That's part of like the hut wewere talking about.
Yes.
Of like, you can't, as theartist, sit there and and feel
like, oh, yeah, but if I don'tagree, I'm not gonna get this
(37:40):
job or whatever.
And it's like, well, if you doagree, you might not get another
job anyway, because you've donethis for 250 bucks and it says
perpetuity forever in the knownuniverse and all current and
forever universes in themultiverse.
Amra Pajalic (37:57):
Yeah, so that's that's the thing.
Nina Nikolic (37:58):
There's that existing or not.
Amra Pajalic (38:01):
But that's the thing, there is that um
desperation, like and you know,like I my last um publishing
contract, I had a friend read itand go through it and give me
suggestions for asking forrevisions.
Um it didn't go well.
And of course, it was like takeit or leave it.
(38:24):
And I I was like, okay, I'llI'll take it, that's fine,
because um that contract has uha time frame.
Yes.
So that they have got mylicensing rights for a certain
time.
Yeah.
And so that's the difference umnow.
But I I would uh part of thereason that I am now very much
(38:47):
uh wanting to just um own all ofmy intellectual property and am
not really, I'm not submittinganywhere, I'm not looking at any
submission processes is becauseof that.
Because the the templates thatthey offer you and what they
offer you, they want to takeeverything and they want to
(39:09):
close the door on you being ableto do anything.
They want to take your worldrights, um, any digital rights,
anything that's coming in thefuture, anything that might be.
Nina Nikolic (39:18):
It's like back in the old new Hollywood days when
they were like, You're doing a10-picture deal, darling.
This is Hollywood, baby.
And you're like, oh God, I hateit.
Like you do picture one, you dopicture two, and then they're
shipping you around, and you'relike, that's not doing this
anymore.
Amra Pajalic (39:35):
No, it really is.
And you know, the fact thattechnology is just constantly
moving and evolving, um, andthat when you own your
intellectual property, thatmeans you can exploit it in all
these different new waysyourself.
But as soon as um someone elseuh you know licensing your
rights and you're signing acontract where they have a lot
(39:57):
more access, you're closingdoors to yourself.
And so even this book that Iwas working on, I I think I
submitted it to a few um prizes.
And then even though Isubmitted it to prizes, I was
like, I don't think I want thisprize.
Because I'm like, if they takeit, it's the first book in the
series.
And then, and and this happensto a lot of authors, which is
(40:20):
like the worst thing, where theystart publishing the series and
then they're like, No, we don'tthink this is working for us,
and then they stop publishingthe series, but they've still
got the rights to the first fewbooks.
No, and then if you docontinue, um it's working to
your disadvantage because if thefirst whatever books they've
(40:42):
got are selling because of yourdoing the promotion, yeah,
you'll never get the rights backto it.
Nina Nikolic (40:47):
So it's like this double money.
It's like a loophole.
I actually have heard similarstuff like that.
Or even like, for example, Ithink it was like during the
writer's strike or something,there were some guys who were
still working on on writing afilm script.
(41:12):
I can't remember which film itwas, it's like on the peripheral
on the peripheral somewhere.
But it it just seems so absurd.
Like if you're not sitting in awriter's room, I I don't know
what the circumstances were, sodon't quote me on this internet.
But um I it it's almost likelike just because actors were on
(41:33):
strike, it doesn't mean thatthey weren't acting in general,
they just weren't activelyworking on productions that were
being struck.
And with writing, the discoursearound it almost felt like
people were reprimanding theseguys for writing at all when it
(41:53):
was that their hands were tiedfor writing on a particular
project or something.
I think they were probablywriting on that project, that's
why that discourse kind ofhappened.
But it felt like people weresaying, like, you must put the
pen down and you must not pickit.
And it's like, but then how doyou maintain your craft
throughout that period?
It's like being on hiatus foryou know a year or God knows how
(42:18):
long it's gonna take for themto get out of stuff, and then
you have to like jump back onthe horse and be like, okay,
God, how do I it's been a while,I've got to work these muscles
again, you know.
Um, and also for some of us, uhyou're probably in the same
boat, it doesn't stop.
Amra Pajalic (42:32):
Our creativity doesn't stop.
It's it's actually like we needthat outlet to live.
And you have to use it when itcomes.
Yes, like you need to release,yeah, because otherwise you
start ruining your creativeprocess.
Um, because now, the past fewyears, I have been freer than I
have ever have.
Thank you, Perry Menapause.
(42:54):
Yeah.
Um there's been a lot ofterrible things that you did to
me.
A lot of terrible things thatyou did, but the one thing that
you have given me um is thisability to just not care.
To just do things and releasethem and just whatever happens,
happens.
I see what that's where thebest work comes from.
Nina Nikolic (43:15):
Yeah.
I'm not gonna lie.
I do feel like in general, theauditions that have been the
most successful, that there's athing in like the voice actor
world specifically of like theset and forget mentality of the
ones that you just kind of throwaway are like the ones that
(43:36):
always work out.
Like you you'll be sick as adog, and this audition comes in,
and you're just like, allright, I'm just gonna do this.
I'm just gonna, I'm just gonnado what I can and I'm gonna send
it.
And then you get the role andyou're like, How?
Did you think that this was andit's because you didn't
overwork it.
(43:57):
You didn't um you didn'tpainstakingly labor over every
detail.
Like there's there's adifference between like
painstakingly laboring over thethe intricacies of of you know
getting the little details inthe clay kind of thing.
But in terms of slapping theclay on the like that, I I think
(44:21):
that there's like a different afundamental difference there of
like overconcerning yourselfwith how it's going to be
received, yes, versus just likethrowing pain at the wall and
just being in the moment anddoing that stuff.
Amra Pajalic (44:34):
Like the sweetest gigs that have been for me,
where I just get thisinspiration for an article.
I sit down, bang it out in 30minutes.
That's where how my blog'sgonna come, leave them for a
day, do a bit of a proofread,yeah.
Um write up a pitch and justemail it.
Yeah.
And then two days later I'mlike, then we get an acceptance.
(44:56):
I'm like, oh, oh, I'm a genius.
Yeah.
But there is something aboutjust following that thread of
inspiration.
Yes.
And, you know, just things, youknow, releasing things and just
see what comes back.
And then also I've gotten tothis point now where I've always
got something out on asubmission.
(45:16):
I'm sure you're listening.
Well, you've always gotsomething out there.
And then recently I had um ajournal go, you know, we've
accepted it for publication.
I couldn't remember what itwas.
Yes, that's what I should be.
I was like, I just have towait.
Nina Nikolic (45:31):
That's why.
I log everything.
Yeah.
Like everything I submit, I logit.
And even then, sometimes Ican't find what I'm doing.
And it's so it's so funnyhaving this discussion because I
was about to say, like, I itfeels it's it's so different
when you're like you set up agoal and you're like, okay, I'm
going to write one blog post permonth.
(45:52):
And then it doesn't come, andyou're like, oh shh.
But then there's an um, this isthis is credit to Amy Smith,
who's like one of my voiceacting like coaches who's like
super polyfaking games.
You should check her out, she'sawesome.
Um, but she is was also aprimary school teacher and was
very adamant on goal setting andhaving your smart goals and
(46:15):
doing all that stuff, whichwhich is actually a structure
that you need to surround yourinspiration, I feel like.
Because if you just haveinspiration and and throw it out
there and whatever, it's likecool, you're doing something,
but also you kind of lose trackof what it is you're building.
Yeah.
I feel like my goals feed intothis weird like manifestation
(46:38):
process.
Amra Pajalic (46:39):
I was just talking to someone about that.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Because I I wrote my goals forthe first time this year and
actually printed them out.
Yeah.
Uh because my daughter does it,she's been doing it for the
report.
Yeah, so we just sat down andwe were doing it together, and
then she's a little bit more.
I was considering maybe doingthat for next year.
And then I I was looking at itrecently and I was like, oh my
(47:02):
gosh, I'm I'm actually nearly ontrack with achieving all of
them.
There's one of them I'm like, Idon't care.
I had this goal and I was goingto weigh myself every month,
but that is never ever.
Nina Nikolic (47:12):
Oh, yeah, you yeah.
You it's like you you do itwith the best intentions.
Yes.
But then you're like, oh,actually, my weight doesn't
actually matter.
It's how I feel.
Yes.
Or whatever.
Amra Pajalic (47:20):
And the other thing is I've realized you can't
control, like, I will have thismany articles published.
Yes.
I will have this many bookspublished.
I can control how many articlesI will pitch.
Yes.
I can control, you know, myoutput and what I will try.
I can't control what will bepicked up.
Yeah.
And so I've learned, like, youknow, to make it about that.
(47:43):
It's like um, you know, tosubmit to, to, you know, to do
these things.
Um so even like that one aboutthe weight, it's not about the
weight.
What it is about is theexercising.
Yes.
And so I have been maintainingthat.
I have been maintaining thatalmost daily, um, you know,
exercising, stamina and stuff.
And so it's not about theweight because the weight, um,
(48:07):
you know, as a woman, we'reconstantly fluctuating.
Oh my god, yeah, yeah.
You I I get sick and I knowthat, you know, I've put on for
two weeks.
Yeah.
And I'm like, I I do not wantto see that number.
I can see it in the mirror.
Thank you very much.
I don't need that depression.
Yeah.
You know, um, but and so I wastalking to someone recently and
I said, I almost feel like, ohmy god, you're you're having so
(48:29):
many things happening, so muchis going on.
Um, but you mean I'm alwaysworking at it.
And I said that there comes apoint where it's almost like
I've been I've been running likethat mouse on the on the
middle.
Churning and churning andchurning, and now it's become
cream.
Um, but it's you know, all ofthe work underneath, and also at
(48:50):
this point, it's almost likeit's not me.
There's like this almost likesomething's taking over me.
Nina Nikolic (48:57):
Some otherworldly thing is happening and things
are just coming, and you'relike, huh.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Like I I had to take a bit of abackseat recently and be like,
like, I felt awful because I waslike, I haven't been, I haven't
been doing any marketing, Ihaven't been doing my cold
contacts.
Amy's gonna, Amy's gonna ringme a new one.
(49:17):
She always tells me I have todo my marketing, I have to do my
marketing.
But I was so busy.
I had so much work to do.
I had all those books to catchup on from when I was sick.
I had all this stuff that Ineeded to do.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgoing to let go, get the stuff
done that I have to get done.
But there's definitely thisthing that has been happening.
(49:38):
I actually have somethingreally funny that I was actually
considering writing a blog postabout, which was in this
manifestation goal setting vein.
In my coaching session withAmy, she was like, Yeah, just
start submitting to rosters andagents and get on those
audiobook rosters.
Like the ultimate for us islike we want Blackstone
Publishing to come to us and askus to audition.
(49:59):
We want people in Random Houseto hire us for books and all
these things and be on theirroster, right?
So you have to go through thatprocess the same way as your
submissions.
You're like, hello, I'm anarrator.
Here's my work, here's stuffabout me, like here's here's why
I would love to be on yourroster.
This is what makes medifferent.
And you sit there and you'resubmitting and submitting and
(50:20):
submitting.
And to this day, I thinkthere's maybe one or two rosters
that I've been on.
One of them um I finally uh gota book with, um, which was
Thrive Audio.
So that book is currently in inprogress to come out, which I
was like so grateful.
Sarah is like the best.
She runs Thrive Audio, andevery time I've auditioned,
(50:40):
she's like, You are my top pick.
But the author ultimately wentin another direction, which
happens, that's fine.
But she was so in my corner allthe time.
And I think she's been one ofthe really like hands-on
producers that I just adoreworking with her truly.
I was working with Amy on um onlike you know, my goals and
stuff, and she's like, Youshould be applying to all of
(51:01):
things, audiobook rosters andthings.
And the thing is that I'll cometo back to the marketing thing
in a second, but um all of theserosters like still won't take
me.
And you don't know what thereason is.
You don't know if it's theythat they think they have people
who already sound like me, ifI'm not experienced enough,
maybe I haven't released enoughbooks for them to be interested
(51:23):
in me, whatever it is, it itdoesn't really matter.
But the the main thing is notyet fine, no worries.
However, in the process ofdoing that stuff, it gets me to
update my samples.
It has me updating my website,updating all of my other
profiles, um, practicingreaching out to people and
pitching myself, um, havingideas to post blogs on social
(51:47):
media and having building thatsnowball piece by piece to move
forward, which ultimately endedup manifesting you reaching out
to me to do your books, RyanBirch reaching out to me to do
her books, Robert finding me todo his books.
So while all of thesepublishers are not allowing me
(52:08):
to audition for their stuff, Idon't get a lot of auditions,
but I do get people comingdirectly to my inbox to hire me
for the rate that I have set,which is, mind you, a lot more
than the MEAA equity rates thatthey have agreed on, which are
incredibly low, the lowest inthe world, barely livable if you
(52:32):
actually calculate it by thehour, it is not minimum wage,
even, um, which is why my rateis what it is, because I have
done the meticulous calculationsand found that it is like a
somewhat livable, at least aminimum wage for that work,
which sounds like a lot whenyou're pitching it, but when you
break it down into like whateverything involves, I'm like, I
(52:54):
know what my value is and Iknow that that's what it is.
So thank you.
But also that one recorded hourof video, that is hours behind.
Oh, yeah.
It would be anywhere betweenlike five and ten or twelve,
like depending on how muchyou're nitpicking at it, how
many revisions you need to do,um, you know, re-revising the
(53:14):
editing, whatever it is.
If you're paying someone elseto edit it, like that can add to
the cost too.
Um, so yeah, all of thosethings.
But then with the marketingside of it, I've started
realizing I had this discussionwith my mum the other day when I
said that I was going throughthat thing of like, I hate this
marketing thing.
I just want to talk to people.
Like, I hate that.
Because the thing is that thereare a lot of creatives who
(53:37):
aren't on social media that youcan't actually reach.
So the only way to reach themis to send them that shitty
email that's just like, hey guy,I you might not know who I am,
but I love your work.
It's really cool.
I'd love to work with yousometime.
Anyway so thank you.
Bye.
Amra Pajalic (53:57):
And that is so hard, that putting yourself so
hard.
Like I'm I'm uh I've had a lotof practice now.
Yeah.
And I am better at it, but Istill kind of need to set up
these steps for myself whereit's like I have to do this
thing first.
So so for example to make itfeel notchy.
Yes.
So for this podcast that I wantto do a history podcast, I'm
(54:20):
like, well, at some point I'mgonna need to approach people
that I want to work on it withme, but I needed to do this
podcast and get the practice andget the comfort zone to be able
to even conceive the thought ofapproaching these people.
Um, because I'm like, you know,these are historians or authors
(54:40):
or you know, survivors, andit's like this whole thing of I
need to be able to be like, Ihave got runners on the board
that I am a credible person tobe able to say I can do this.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And and so it is it's thatpsychological aspect, and then
(55:01):
it's also just doing the bloodything, yeah, and even in the
shop.
Nina Nikolic (55:04):
And you hear all the time like celebrities and
interviews being like, they'relike, How did you come across
this role?
And they're like, like RobertPattinson, he'll just be like, I
love these directors.
And I emailed them and waslike, I love your shit, man.
And then they said they had athing for me.
Like, and the thing is, itmight have to be a two-way
thing.
They might have to be a fan ofRobert Pattinson too, know that
he's an incredible actor, and bea fan of his, know that he has
(55:26):
the reach that he has or thefamiliarity with audiences that
he has, whatever it is.
But you can still find thosepeople at your level, so to
speak.
But I so prefer, I realized Iwas incredibly scared of talking
to people in person, takingtheir time, like doing all that
(55:46):
kind of stuff.
But I love it so much more.
And I started learning that.
Like I used to be afraid of, Iused to be a phone scared
person, like not liking talkingto people on the phone.
And now I'm like, I actuallylike this so much better because
we can get more things out inthe open and exchange more ideas
and get a better sense of eachother.
And if ultimately we don't, wearen't, we don't quite connect,
(56:10):
that's great.
Yeah, I think it was still timewell spent.
But then I find more quicklywho the people that I really do
want to gravitate to and workwith and all that kind of stuff.
And I was telling mom how I waslike, I do all this LinkedIn
stuff, but I don't think itworks for me.
And I don't think I've likeanything has come from it.
And ultimately, you are tryingto get work, you're trying to
(56:30):
collaborate to people, you'retrying to pay pay bills and all
these things, but I want to dothat with people I enjoy doing
it with.
And I think that made thedifference for me was instead of
just kind of shilling out theseemails of like, hello, I do
this, here's my demo, hello, Ido this, here's my demo, hello,
I do this, here's my demo.
I don't just want to do thatbecause ultimately they are my
demo is going to have to suitsomething that they have going
(56:53):
on, which is a separateconversation.
So while I do still have to dothat, that's just part of the
business, and I kind of have tobe okay with doing that part.
It's kind of like the what wasit, Scorsese or someone who was
like one for them, one for me.
I yes, yes.
That's kind of my approach tomarketing now.
Yeah.
Where it's kind of like the onefor them is like the one I have
(57:14):
to do.
Yeah.
The one for me is like, I lovethis person's work, they're an
incredible creative mind.
I I would kill to touch whatthey what the the aura that they
have or whatever it is, and andjust meet them, chat, whatever.
If something comes up, awesome,but I I feel so much better
when I have a rapport withsomeone that I genuinely like
(57:37):
their work.
And I like surrounding myselfwith people that by osmosis I
just feel nourished by.
Amra Pajalic (57:43):
Yes, and that's the thing, you want to spend
time with people who really doinspire you.
Yeah.
Um, because that's also it'sabout this creative life is the
creating, but it's also justfeeding yourself, feeding your
soul in a sense, so you've gotthat and those moments.
Nina Nikolic (58:02):
And sometimes that's not even so much just
like getting along with people.
Like I can I can still makeincredible work with people that
we might not on a personallevel, like vibe or hang out or
whatever.
Like we won't like go to coffeeand just talk for three hours
or whatever.
But we can go to coffee,exchange really cool ideas, get
in the booth together, makesomething really cool.
(58:23):
Like, not every person that youwork with, even creatively, has
to be your person.
Yes, but it does help to havepeople that are your people that
also you can make incredibleart with to like supplement and
feed the other relationshipsthat you have too.
Yeah, because that wholeecosystem.
Yeah, which is like that allthe whole manifesting thing to
(58:44):
me.
Like I was like this thismanifesting thing feels really
like woo-woo and whatever, butthere is actually a structure to
it that results in this thingcalled manifestation.
Amra Pajalic (58:54):
And I think um, since I've started doing uh
posts every year, doingreflective posts and looking at
what I have achieved.
That's really helped becauseyou know it's just it's about
what have I achieved?
It's what have I done in theyear, just making every year
sort of count that I amscratching, that I am trying.
Nina Nikolic (59:13):
I need to get better at doing that's one thing
I need to get better at doingis like my review stuff because
my weekly review has justbasically become a six-hour
block where I can finally tickoff shit that I haven't had time
that now in the review I'veseen that I haven't done all
these things.
Yes.
So I'm not looking at what Ihave done, I'm looking at what I
haven't done yet, and I'm like,oh yeah, I should do that.
(59:33):
And I start doing it.
And then six hours later, I'mlike, I haven't reviewed
anything, I'll just keepworking.
Amra Pajalic (59:38):
Yeah, I don't but I finally get it done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I started doing like a weeklywriting update.
Oh, okay.
And I've stopped on a littlebit because um I've been just
done well and things.
But I'm like, I really likedthat, just the weekly thing for
myself.
But then yeah, at the end ofthe year, and the one thing that
I've found that has been thebest thing I've ever done is the
news and events page on mywebsite.
(59:59):
site and so that um all thenews is just in the one place so
when I'm doing a review at theend of the year I'm just like
it's all there you can see whatyeah it's all there all the
things that I've done that arelike my news and then events
that I've done.
Nina Nikolic (01:00:13):
Like your accomplishments are basically
chronicled for you.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:16):
It's all chronicled for me and then like
I do a blog post and I hyperlinkit.
And so then at the end of theyear I'm just like I could just
pull it out and I can go wellthat has been good.
And so that's um every yearI've been like okay moving.
Well I mean this has been sucha great conversation I've been
on forever to go on but withoutthe camera now we're gonna have
(01:00:39):
lunch and we're gonna give eachother.
unknown (01:00:42):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:42):
But thank you so much we were going to do this
catch up anyway.
So um so much great stuff interms of thinking about the
creative life and and the otherside of it.
And there's so manycommonalities.
Yeah.
Nina Nikolic (01:00:53):
And I'll have to come back next time so we can
talk about tools.
Amra Pajalic (01:00:56):
Yes we're looking to and then we just you know so
next time we'll do the smallbusiness part of it.
Yes yeah yeah okay thank youthank you for tuning into Amra's
armchair anecdotes if youenjoyed today's episode don't
forget to subscribe and followfor more insights stories and
(01:01:17):
inspiration from my armchair toyours remember every story
begins with a single word
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.