September 29, 2025 • 38 mins
Two award-winning authors discuss the transformative journey from rejection to publication and how fantasy fiction creates space to process real-world challenges.
• Demet shares her decade-long journey to publication through "process, perspective, perseverance, and practice"
• Co-editing "Growing Up Muslim in Australia" helped transform Demet's writing style
• "Blood Moon Bride" explores themes of oppression and resistance through fantasy
• Writing fantasy provided therapeutic distance during postpartum anxiety
• Storytelling carries inheritances through generations, echoing ancestral experiences
• Each generation of women in Demet's family pushed boundaries for the next
• The importance of raising children with intentional language around gender roles
• Perseverance as the key difference between published and unpublished writers
• Self-belief as the foundation for creative success
• We are "always coming of age" throughout our lives, constantly evolving
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 00 (00:00):
Thank you for tuning into Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
Amra Pajalic (00:20):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
Today I'm here with DemetDiveroran.
We've actually been friends fora long time, and you are an
award-winning author of Livingon Hope Street.
You're the co-editor of GrowingUp Muslim in Australia, which
is an anthology we co-editedtogether.
You were born in your mother'schildhood home in Adana, Turkey,
(00:44):
migrated to Australia with yourfamily when you were six months
old, grew up in the outskirtsof Melbourne.
I love this sentence.
Her language was a fusion ofEnglish and Turkish words, a
phonetic random mix of strongvowels and sneaky silent
letters.
Today, Demet's unique voiceshapes her stories which explore
(01:04):
multiculturalism,cross-cultural relationships,
racism, injustice, gender-basedoppression, and what it means to
be human.
And Blood Moon Bride, which ishere, we've put it on display,
is her second novel.
Alongside Great Company there.
That's right.
Um Time Wheels Twin Mountains.
(01:25):
And so we're here to talk aboutBlood Moon Bride, but let's
just talk generally aboutwriting.
But welcome to Matt.
Thank you so much for being.
Thanks for having me, Amra.
I know we've had um so busy, somany things going on, but we've
made it.
Demet Divaroren (01:41):
Finally we've made it.
Amra Pajalic (01:43):
Yeah, so I wanted to start sort of a little bit
more um with the beginning ofyour writing career, because you
wrote several novels beforeliving on Hope Street, and there
were ejections that lasted overa decade.
Yeah.
So what internal shift finallyunlocked publication?
Process, um, perspective,perseverance.
Demet Divaroren (02:06):
I think, and practice, practice, practice.
Practice, practice.
I think um those are earlynovels, so Odd Iight, which was
um shortlisted for the VogelAward way back when I was
eligible.
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (02:23):
That one's under certified.
That's right.
Demet Divaroren (02:28):
Um, and I was still studying at um VU,
professional writing and editingum diploma.
So it was it was a practicenovel, and I'm so glad that it
didn't end up being publishedbecause it was very it was um
undercooked.
Yeah, we had a lot of heart, itwas, you know, it's a beautiful
(02:48):
story.
And many of the themes that Iwas exploring ended up in Living
on Hope Street and also uh toan extent in Blood Moon Bride.
Um, so definitely perseverance.
Uh I just wouldn't give up.
So it was like rejection,rejection, rejection for what I
ate after, you know, um it wascelebrated in such a beautiful
(03:09):
way with the shortlisting.
And then um I wrote Road toSanta Fe, which I barely
remember now, but again, um uhI'm all I always seem to be
exploring those really uh darkthemes, intense themes, which is
not uh it's not a bad thing,it's um you know art and uh
(03:33):
writing, it's all a reflectionof of real life.
So um, so yeah, perseveranceafter that, and that was
rejected, I don't know, athousand times.
And then along came growing upMuslim and Australia.
Now, this was the the pointwhere um my my perspective
(03:54):
changed a little bit because ofwhat what I mean by that is um
perspective in terms of craft.
Yes.
So we edited um thousands andthousands and thousands of
words, and we were mining allthese beautiful stories about
dual identity, about crushingyou know, those stereotypes, and
um, you know, just umcelebrating our shared humanity,
(04:20):
I guess.
So um thousands and thousandswe had to kind of sift through
and find the threads of uh ofthese beautiful stories.
And I think after that two-yearprocess, Living on Hope Street
is told from seven differentperspectives, and it kind of um
it there's they're really short,sharp scenes.
(04:43):
So I think this book reallyhelped me gain access to uh a
new style of short, sharp sortof um writing that that yeah,
that really gave birth in a wayto Hope Street.
Amra Pajalic (04:59):
Yeah, I think for me also, um, because I went on
and wrote my memoir after this,yeah.
And I really feel that steppinginto the shoes of being an
editor and really um becausethere were some pieces we edited
so absolutely, and and when webecause I've been using this
quite a bit in the classroom, wekind of developed a style in
terms of how we edited, and Ican see how that style
(05:22):
influenced me with my memoir andinfluenced you uh in terms of
your opening with uh anecdoteand then the action and stuff.
Demet Divaroren (05:31):
Would is would it be fair to say when we say um
edited, we absolutely respectedthe story, and but I'm talking
purely like words, like therewas a story that was 10,000
words, and we had to kind of umcondense condense to about
3,000.
Yeah, so yeah, um, I thinkthat's an important point to
(05:53):
answer.
Amra Pajalic (05:53):
Yeah, so we'll we were working with um you know
people who are at differentstages of their writing journey.
Um, and there were uh somelessons for us along the way.
After that, 100%.
Yeah, but I I I don't know, itwas a fascinating process, and I
really feel like um theapprenticeship that it gave me,
yeah, like it really changed.
(06:15):
And once I opened my eyes, Ithink it almost feels like you
opened your eyes to the editingpart of it, and and now we've
got it when we write, there'sthat.
Yeah, that's always been yeah,yeah.
So that's great.
So um, so in a sense, I thinkyou've answered the second
question.
So living on Hope Street is araw contemporary realism,
(06:37):
because it's dealing with theseven characters.
I'm actually sorry I forgot tobring it because what I love
about that book is the cover hasgot the silhouettes of all of
the characters, and then whenyou're reading it, each um
character's got their name andtheir silhouette so that you
know whose point of view it is.
Um, and it's a beautiful novelbecause it's it's the different
(06:59):
perspectives and seeing thestories from the different
perspectives and really tellingthe story of Australia of all
the two apps, themulticulturalism of Australia.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
I love that about it.
Can you tell us about BloodMoon Bride?
Give me my give me your pitch.
What's your elevator pitch ofin practicing?
Demet Divaroren (07:17):
I'm wrong.
I don't do elevator pitchesbecause like they last 15
minutes.
My elevator sessions are quitelong.
I kind of get stuck in them.
And then and then I try sohard.
Like when I give a reallycondensed pitch, then I, you
(07:38):
know, I really omit some key,very key things in the world.
Well, all right, give me the15-minute glitch.
Okay, so Blood Moon Bride.
Blood Moon Bride.
Um, it is a story of Vea.
Um, she lives in Menama Valley,and this is a valley uh that is
(08:02):
ruled by quite a ruthless umand greedy governor who um is in
the business of using andabusing people and taking away
their rights.
Um it is a world full of yes,oppression and injustice and uh
(08:22):
but also love and family andconnection to land and
connection to self.
So um Rea is well uh thegovernor, Governor Kyra, he uh
uh sends boys off to war and uhmarries girls off um quite young
(08:44):
so that they can help thevalley and they can breed
children and Rhea and a lot ofpeople are disgusted by this
process, and she um has achoice.
Does she submit to thisruthless system or does she
rebel?
And spoiler alert, she doesrebel, she does fight back, and
for her efforts, she's sent tothe nest um a place to
(09:09):
rehabilitate or brainwash umbelly folk into uh you know
submitting to this system.
So it is I know it sounds dark.
Amra Pajalic (09:25):
Dystopia is dark.
We love dystopia is dark.
Demet Divaroren (09:31):
The world is a dark place, yeah, it can be,
yes, is, um, and I feel likefantasy is a really beautiful
way to help especially youngpeople come to terms with some
of these themes um that arevery, very real.
(09:53):
And um it could help them justprocess and find ways that they
can fight back against systemsthat might be oppressing them or
um you know, in the real world,or oppressing others.
And so I think these are reallyimportant themes, and it and
this book came to me at a timewhere my life drastically
(10:16):
changed.
I became a mother um uh firstto Zara and then uh to River.
So I uh I wrote many drafts ofthis story.
To get to this story, I wrotemany drafts of another
fantastical sort of novel, andthrough that I found Menama
Valley, and then it was justthis big, messy, messy journey.
(10:40):
But I wouldn't change it foranything because for me,
writing, especially in those umpostpartum anxiety days, writing
was my one of the only, or oneof the best ways I should say.
Though there are other ways, ofcourse, my family grounds me,
but be just sinking my teeth andmy heart and my emotions and
(11:05):
and the creativity into aproject really helped me take a
step back from my own anxietyand just channel everything into
this world, all of my passions,disappointments, my love, my
hope for a better future for abetter world.
(11:25):
So it really helped me in somany ways.
See, elevator pitch.
We were stuck in it for about10 minutes.
Sorry.
Amra Pajalic (11:34):
That is beautiful because you know what you're
talking about, because we'reboth very dark riders, we both
really explore dark themes,yeah.
Um, and you know, we havewalked in darkness, but we also
walk in light.
Demet Divaroren (11:47):
We have some optimistic people who choose to
be full of light, but we areaware, yes, and the light.
Thank you for reminding me.
See, this is the elevatorbitch, and the things that I
forget to say, but you saidlight, and light is absolutely
at the core of this novel.
Yes.
And I asked the question (12:05):
what is it that we inherit from our
ancestors?
How do we carry thatinheritance um, you know,
forward?
And I think storytelling, art,um, song, dance, these are the
things that they they carrythrough generations and they
(12:25):
echo through generations, andthey tell a story of of you
know, those who came before.
And I think um there is so muchlight, yes, and also in the
world, and so much beauty thatis just worth fighting for.
Amra Pajalic (12:42):
And I think, you know, we read fiction, um, like
in a reason why I'm now in thecrime fiction world.
Yeah, I read crime fiction tofeel that sense of justice and
to feel that sense of um, youknow, resolution.
And it's the same with fantasy.
We read it because it echoesreality and it echoes what's
going on in the real world, butit gives us that sense of
(13:04):
resolution, that sense ofjustice, that sense of, you
know, um rebelling and standingup for things matter.
And so, you know, even thoughit is fiction, it really uh
holds space and you know, it isvery important.
And I especially think, youknow, young adult fiction, when
we're writing for 15,16-year-olds, writing for 15,
(13:26):
16-year-old selves.
Yeah, you know, that's thething.
We're always sort of writingwhat we wish we had and the
stories that we want um youngpeople to read, you know, even
though there are so many of uswho are adults and we still love
young adult fiction.
Demet Divaroren (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one of my favorite genresto read.
Amra Pajalic (13:45):
Yeah.
I don't know, just so visceraland so real, and the sense of
coming and becoming.
Speaker 02 (13:50):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:51):
Um, I mean, we're doing that throughout our lives,
you know, the coming and thebecoming.
Demet Divaroren (13:55):
Yes, yes, we are always coming of age.
I said this the other day.
Um, where was I in the schooltalk?
And I said, we if you if youguys think that, you know,
adults have got it together, youknow, like sure, we may have
moments of yes, we're soconfident in our lives, in in
our um, you know, where we'reat, where we're going.
(14:18):
But then something will happenand it'll change all that.
We have to regroup.
So we're always coming of age,yes, forever and ever.
It's a permanent thing.
Uh identity is constantlyshifting.
So it's I I reckon that's verytrue.
We're always we're alwaysevolving, and I think that's why
I'm so drawn to YA.
Amra Pajalic (14:41):
Because it's our first one, it's the first and
the primary.
Demet Divaroren (14:44):
So yeah, it sets the tone.
Yes.
It sets the tone.
So for me in high school, Iwent through a period where I
was just like de for demandbecause I was kind of an
underachiever, and you know,that was my average grade.
So until about year 10, I justkind of laughed along with my
friends, and yeah, yeah, that'swho I am.
(15:05):
I I I fed that narrative, andthis therefore I became that
narrative.
So, um, and it took three wordsfor me to change all that, and
I've taken that with me throughto adulthood, and even now I'll
the words are why not me?
(15:26):
Why not me?
Why can't I get good grades?
Why can't I um get published?
Um why not me?
It requires a a a skill thatall writers need, and that is
(15:48):
the ability to, you know, towrite, you know, to to dig in to
creativity.
We've all got that as humanbeings, so why not me?
So yes, it does.
It's a I reckon why um or ourteen years, it does give us the
foundation, and some of thatdoes not change.
Amra Pajalic (16:08):
Yeah.
So you discovered early on, youat least figured it out in high
school.
Uh it took me until my early20s to kind of figure out um
that I could achieve and that Icould do things.
Demet Divaroren (16:20):
Yeah.
Um yeah, and it it it is soyeah, those those formative
experiences were kind of I thinkit's because it's so miserable,
it's like the strongest ones,but then every decade after that
we're constantly evolving.
What held you back?
Why 20s?
Um, for me, it was the factbecause my mum was bipolar and
life at home was so chaotic,there was no space at all to
(16:44):
figure out me and to focus onme.
It was always in reaction to.
So it was only when I gotmarried, because I'm married
when I was very young, I was 19,still married to the same
person, um, my husband for 28years.
And it was only because um Iwas married, I was an adult, I
(17:04):
had stability, I had space,yeah, and I had a cheerleader.
I never had a cheerleaderbefore that.
Absolutely.
I never had because you know,the thing about bipolar that a
lot of people don't get is thatit is um something that makes
people very self-involved.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it wasn't mymum's fault, but she was just
incredibly self-involved, and sothere was no space for me.
(17:28):
Um, and yeah, like I think thatthat was it, having that
stability to actually kind of belike, oh, what do I want?
And what people don'tunderstand, I remember when I
was in my early 20s, too manypeople were like, um, oh, being
an adult, oh my god, payingbills and doing that.
(17:48):
And I'm like, this is awesome!Nobody, because you know, I went
to so many different schools, Ilived in so many different
houses, I was in foster homes.
Yeah, my every day would justimplode in a moment.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:04):
And so for me, being an adult and going, I pick
where I live, I pick who I livewith, I pick who is in my life,
I pick where I work, I pickwhat I do.
Demet Divaroren (18:15):
These were like You had control over your life.
Yes.
You were, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:19):
Yeah, and so that was the the big revelation for
me.
But you know, we don't stop, weare still constantly evolving
and becoming different people.
Well, not different people, butlike, you know, finding
different things, we're good atfinding our strengths, yeah,
realizing what we want to let goof.
Yeah, yeah.
I just think that young adultthing is is when it's so
(18:40):
visceral.
Demet Divaroren (18:41):
And the important thing is um to be able
to embrace change.
Yes, you know, so whether it'swith our writing, being able to
actually try new things, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:52):
So you from contemporary realism to fantasy.
Demet Divaroren (18:58):
Yeah, so that was a big shift.
That was a huge shift, and umit had to be that way.
As I said, I really needed thatdistance away from reality, I
needed that safe space to beable to pour all of these, you
know, um intense emotions andthoughts and feelings just into
(19:21):
this world.
So that was really importantfor the world building, uh
liberating, sure, because thenyou're not tethered to facts and
you know, the contemporaryworld has, you know, the the
rules of um contemporary worldand um bound by cultural rules
as well, and all of that.
(19:42):
Um, so yes, liberating in in areally beautiful way, but also
oh my gosh.
Speaker 01 (19:49):
So in the place it's so hard.
The rules, the community, likeit's it's a very complex world
building.
Speaker 02 (20:01):
Yeah, it was it was very the the geography.
I've I've never been good withgeography.
Like you're not good at it.
And it's like I had to actuallythink of you know where rivers
are placed and what's behindhere and what's I you know it's
good because if you neededcomplication, you can just add
(20:22):
silt.
I don't know.
Um so yeah, it was fun, butalso got to a point where I was
like, oh wow, this is this is alot, and where I had to
actually, you know, create amap.
Me with maps, I can't even drawstick figures, and I had to
(20:43):
even yeah, with an app.
It was just hard but wonderfulexperience, and yeah, I I I
loved it.
Speaker 01 (20:52):
I it's fun to it's it's a great novel, and uh the
latest news is it's being madeinto an audiobook.
Speaker 02 (20:58):
Yeah, we were listening to auditions.
Yes, it's so exciting, yeah.
Um that will be the Blood RimBride audiobook will be
published, I believe, early2026.
So that'll be great.
It'll be lovely to see um itreaching new audiences.
Speaker 01 (21:17):
And I think like a young adult, um, you know, I was
actually having parent teachinginterviews, and I'm like uh
with students who are EALstudents, and the parents are
always like, what do we do?
And I'm like, watch TV withsubtitles on.
Listen to audiobooks and havethe physical book in front of
you because it's learningpronunciation.
(21:37):
Absolutely.
Um and I've been looking atsome research in terms of you
know, um, people who listen toaudiobooks, it does help the
vocabulary development.
Uh, it's still as if you are umreading it yourself.
Yeah.
Um, because there are somesilly people who are like, oh,
audiobooks are not as likeyou're not reading.
Uh yes, you are.
(21:57):
I've still got pictures in myhead.
Speaker 02 (21:59):
Yeah, well, I um Zara and Ribba uh no, Zara and I
were listening to snippets of ayoung adult audiobook just the
other day, and she's like, Ohmum, this doesn't sound like
like a book.
It sounds like like acting, oryou know, and I said like
theater, it's like a play.
And she said, yes.
And I said, that's the beautyof it.
(22:21):
It gives you a totallydifferent experience.
Speaker 01 (22:25):
And what I love about it is pronunciations, yes,
because especially like withyour world, it's a whole, you
know, fantasy world that is set,uh, and so that like I'm liking
how uh then your people willhear the pronunciations and all
the stuff.
Speaker 02 (22:40):
Do you know?
Funny, funny and funnilyenough, um I struggled more,
like when Living Hope Streetaudio was coming out, and I had
to fill in a form with umpronunciations and tips.
You know, because it's set inmulticultural Australia, we've
(23:01):
got so many different umcultures and and names, and um,
and of course, Mrs.
Aslan, lots of Turkish kind ofwords in there, and so oh my
goodness, that was really,really difficult to um just
write it, like spell it out, orjust um, yeah, is it the
phonetic, phonetic, thephonetics of it?
Speaker 01 (23:23):
Yeah, or yeah, when I was doing my audiobooks, I
recorded all of the names andall of the you know, because I'm
like they need to hear it.
Speaker 02 (23:33):
Hear it.
I used I was spelling it out,and I think possibly a few
things I did record, but withthis one, this is why I was
like, nah, the world isuniversal.
Guess what?
All the names are universal,and they're you know, um not
(23:53):
straightforward.
They're still exotic, sure.
Um, I don't like that term, butI can't think of a better one
at the moment.
But um still I wanted auniversal feel to this world.
It was really, really importantto me.
Um, I don't um yeah, I evenmade it a point not to describe
(24:13):
people in terms of um you know,their skin colour or any I was
really careful not to add anyracial identifiers.
Yes.
It was really important.
So in that in that way, it wasa huge shift again um from Hope
Street, you know, which wasexploring all of the beauty of
culture and you know, and and itwas perfect for that book and
(24:37):
it was necessary for that book.
But for this one, I was like,it's fantasy, human first.
That was my motto.
People who were reading thisbook, I want them to be able to
recognize um their sharedhumanity with these characters.
So for these characters, theirhumanity had to come first.
Speaker 01 (24:58):
And I like that, yeah.
That's the thing about fantasy,you know, it is set in a
different world.
You don't, you know, peoplelook differently.
And I know that there's beensome discussions about other
fantasy books.
That is the joy of it.
It is about just taking, youknow, creating a different
world.
Within this world, yes, it hasechoes to our world, but it
still functions just for thethemes, yeah, in a sense, and
(25:21):
the story first.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (25:24):
And yeah, everyone does it differently.
And who knows what I'll do withthe next one?
Who knows what the next onewill be?
Just quietly.
But anyway, let's see.
Well, that's more love.
Well, actually, have youstarted working on the next one?
Next question.
Next question.
You're still in the throes ofpublicity for this.
I have started something, but Iwon't.
It's too early.
Speaker 01 (25:44):
Fair enough.
Um, okay, so I sort of wantedto um you talked a little bit
about of family and generationsand the influence.
Um, and you talked about, youknow, your grandmother labored
immediately after giving birth.
You married your mother marriedyoung, so the stories of
(26:04):
resilience.
So what what are the shiftsthat you see between, you know,
like in a sense of how how isthat an inspiration?
How is that an influence?
How is that because I I seethat as an influence in your
writing and in the way you'reapproaching it, but I just
wanted you to talk about that.
Speaker 02 (26:20):
The women in our, you know, I the women in our
lives, and um I mentioned likethose of who have come before
and the echoes of of theirexperiences and resilience.
I always say, I come from along line of resilient women.
Um and yes, storytelling hasmade me better understand.
(26:42):
So when I listen to mygrandmother and she talks about
her mom and their connection andum the lack of opportunities
they had to study.
Um, but then you know, like mygreat-grandmother um wanted her
daughter to study, but then wasalso very afraid of it because,
you know, back then in the 50s,in cultures across the world,
(27:08):
um, I think it was, you know,girls girls studying, I guess,
um, they were up againstpoverty, they were up against
um, you know, um illiterate kindof parents, and and my
great-grandmother wasilliterate.
Um yeah, yeah.
(27:29):
And so but my grandmotherlearned, so this is through
generations, how did the theseshifts happen?
My grandmother learned how towrite and read.
And I remember exchangingletters with her when I was
young.
Um, so that was a a doorway forus to connect, even in
(27:50):
childhood, even though we werethousands of kilometers away in
Turkey and Australia.
And then my you know, my mum,unfortunately, unfortunately,
she's one of eight children.
She didn't get a chance tostudy past primary school.
Uh, that really became that wasa game changer for her, and it
was um her golden ticket, Iguess, because it opened up the
(28:15):
world to her through literature,particularly through fiction.
So she was a huge reader, andso what she did was okay, my
daughters will study.
My daughters will not getmarried young.
They will study, they will befinancially stable, they will
(28:35):
have lives first, and then theywill, you know, choose to get
married when they're ready.
So complete, so that's likethree is it three generation
samurai?
Because like my numeracyskills, really, one, two,
grandmother, mama, yeah.
So, so you can see like the theshifts and the ripple effects
(28:56):
of yeah, of of change and alsolegacy and resilience, you know,
and and resistance.
How do we how do we resist umthese cycles?
How do we resist um yeah, likehow to create then change and
(29:18):
yeah, all of those kinds ofelements are really and and
yeah, this book is notautobiographical, it's fantasy.
No, but I I um you know I'mpassionate about these topics.
Yes, you know, we keep comingback to those stories.
Speaker 01 (29:35):
Come back to these stories that really kind of
shaped us.
Yeah, yeah.
And I also think um what you'retalking about in terms of you
know, uh each generation, thatis such an Australian story that
each generation has theopportunity to do better because
we kind of stand on theshoulders of the previous
generations where they're theones sacrificing and we do
(29:56):
better.
And so I talked to that, Italked to Sophia about that.
unknown (29:59):
Um
Speaker 01 (30:00):
Um because you know, in a sense we're we're in the
same boat where was our parentsand where the second children
are.
The third.
And I'm like, you're going tobe a better version of me.
You are going to achieve thingsmore than me, earlier, better,
because they will have thebenefit of us being able to
translate the education system,the opportunities.
(30:22):
Whereas for me, it was reallyno networks.
No, I didn't even understandhow university worked when I was
in high school.
Yeah.
I didn't understand so manythings, didn't have any cultural
capital that our children haveaccess to because of who we are
and the fact that we've, youknow, had those things.
So yeah, like it's it's just umit's really it makes you so
(30:45):
grateful, but also it gives youa sense of responsibility to
achieve and to move.
Like there is there is a littlebit of pressure, do you feel?
Speaker 02 (30:53):
Yeah, of course.
And especially like there's a Ithink about this a lot.
So I have um a boy and a girl.
And so for me, I think about ohmy gosh, there's such there's
such pressure for me to even umuh not moderate, but just kind
(31:17):
of think really seriously aboutthe words that come out of my
mouth.
So the pressure of raisingchildren is immense, of course.
And then the messaging and andthen and so I raise them, I
always say this, I raise themequally.
I call them beauties.
I don't just reserve beauty formy girl.
(31:40):
It's you're both beautiful,you're amazing, you're creative,
and but when it comes to genderroles, absolutely I am over
like I'm not overthinking.
I am thinking carefully andintentionally about the words
that come out of my mouth.
The dishwasher needs to be umcleaned, they are both doing it,
(32:01):
they are working together.
They're life skills, they'renot reserved for one or the
other.
Yes, and that in itself is somuch pressure, and there is so
much energy that goes intotrying to just expose them as
much as I absolutely can to alevel of you know equality.
Speaker 01 (32:20):
I'm not gonna do you feel like that is also um
because of our background wherewe come from?
No, it's because of the worldthat they're going into.
Speaker 02 (32:29):
Yeah, it's absolutely about that.
Of course, back yes, of course,like it's just that's part of
the world as well.
Speaker 01 (32:36):
I come from Bosnian culture, which is very gendered,
very patriarchal, and yeah,Turkey culture is is like as
well to a degree, yeah.
Yeah, so women are the ones whoare supposed to do all the
household chores.
Yeah, so in my household, myjoke is um, you know, whenever
Sophia's like, oh, um, I'mhungry, I'm like, you've got a
father for that.
Um she's like, you know, I Ineed something.
(32:58):
I'm like, you've got a fatherfor that.
That's that's what a father isfor.
Um I I don't do anything interms of housework and booking
uh and shopping, he's the one.
So that's always my thing.
I'm like, that's what men arefor.
That's his role.
Uh so I just flip itcompletely.
Speaker 02 (33:15):
And yeah, and and look, of course, like I'm not
denying that our cultures sharethat many, many cultures have
that, you know, patriarchal kindof and gendered roles and
patriarchal societies.
I mean, we do live in the livein a patriarchal society, and
(33:36):
this is, you know, they go outinto the playground and they
hear things like, oh, girls areweak, chuck them in the creek,
and I just, you know, when Ihear that, I hear that um from
many, many children.
Like we're at we're at aplayground, and people will be
like kids will just be throwingthings like that around, and I
(33:57):
have to sit and say, okay, let'sflip that, you know, like or I
try and explain that and I'lltry and make something fun out
of it that isn't got nothing todo with you know gender.
Speaker 01 (34:10):
It starts, it starts in the playground, and I just
it's just so fascinating, butalso frustrating, and it's just
we've got our word cut out forus, but what I'm stuck on is
like how that always come upwith these like rhymes that are
like the worst rhymes, like theworst racist rhymes, the worst
sexist rhymes.
That's always the rhymes wherethey just like you know, they
(34:33):
get so catchy, yeah.
Speaker 02 (34:34):
They get catchy, but um, you know, kids hear it from
adults, I think.
And the power of language thatis the power of language and the
power of what we're doing.
It is absolutely language iseverything, yeah.
It is everything, yeah, youknow.
Speaker 01 (34:49):
Well, I wanted to kind of bring it back to what
advice do you have for umpeople?
No, no, writing, creativity, umbiggest lesson, biggest lesson.
What can I say?
Writing and creativity.
(35:10):
I mean, I think for you theperseverance story is the one.
Okay, we've talked about thisbefore where I've said we have
both met so many talentedwriters uh in our journey and in
this path, um, who gave upbefore, you know, they they um
kind of didn't keep pushingthrough.
(35:31):
Yeah.
And uh we're kind of thesurvivors.
Speaker 02 (35:37):
It's it's really, really hard to stay motivated,
to stay um, yeah, to keep to tokeep the faith, I guess.
And yeah, it took 12 yearsuntil I published a novel, and I
thought I would achieve that ina handful of years.
Speaker 00 (35:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (35:58):
Um, and and I think so persistence, keep practicing,
keep making the time forwriting.
But before you do anything, youhave to believe in yourself.
Because once you believe inyourself, and I always say this,
then it's infectious, thenothers start believing in you.
You have to believe in yourselfand just stick to it and don't
(36:22):
put a time frame on publicationor or any kind of reward,
because if that's why you'redoing it, it's gonna end in a
heartache, because even likewhen you do get published and
you do um like win an award, oryou know, no matter what, um
(36:48):
it's an innate thing.
So the external things cannotsustain you.
Because then after that, youstill have to sit down and write
something and have the staminaand perseverance and motivation
to stick at it for like fiveyears, for example.
You know, you can get it donein two and a half, but really
we've each taken five years withsome of our books.
Speaker 01 (37:10):
Yeah, some of them had a really long percolation
and went through so manyincarnations, yeah.
And uh, and that's because wejust we could not let go of
them.
Speaker 02 (37:22):
And yeah, you have to maintain that motivation.
So no one else is gonna do itfor you.
It's an innate thing that needsto be nurtured.
So again, elevator pitch,right?
Just gone on a deep tangent.
Hey, that's what we do.
This is what we do.
It's the best way I can explainit.
Um yeah, just don't give up.
(37:44):
If it's something that trulyspeaks to your soul and your
heart, and it just gives youlife, just keep doing it.
Speaker 01 (37:53):
I think trust, trust in it.
Um, yeah, and that's that'swhat your journey has proven.
Where you know, uh just like alittle too tuned.
Yeah.
Trying.
Thank you so much.
It was so good.
Uh, usually we have our chatswithout the camera, so you know,
this time we recorded forposterity.
Speaker 02 (38:12):
And congratulations, Amaral.
Thank you.
It's a beautiful book.
I've started reading it.
It's a beautiful, beautifulbook.
It's a hard read, isn't it?
It's a hard read, but it is itis wonderful.
Thank you.
Congratulations.
Yes, we know all about the longgame, don't we, guys?
(38:33):
Yes.
All right, well, thank you.
Thank you.
Speaker 00 (38:37):
Thank you for tuning into Amra's armchair anecdotes.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more inside storiesand inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
Thank you for tuning into Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
Amra Pajalic (00:20):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
Today I'm here with DemetDiveroran.
We've actually been friends fora long time, and you are an
award-winning author of Livingon Hope Street.
You're the co-editor of GrowingUp Muslim in Australia, which
is an anthology we co-editedtogether.
You were born in your mother'schildhood home in Adana, Turkey,
(00:44):
migrated to Australia with yourfamily when you were six months
old, grew up in the outskirtsof Melbourne.
I love this sentence.
Her language was a fusion ofEnglish and Turkish words, a
phonetic random mix of strongvowels and sneaky silent
letters.
Today, Demet's unique voiceshapes her stories which explore
(01:04):
multiculturalism,cross-cultural relationships,
racism, injustice, gender-basedoppression, and what it means to
be human.
And Blood Moon Bride, which ishere, we've put it on display,
is her second novel.
Alongside Great Company there.
That's right.
Um Time Wheels Twin Mountains.
(01:25):
And so we're here to talk aboutBlood Moon Bride, but let's
just talk generally aboutwriting.
But welcome to Matt.
Thank you so much for being.
Thanks for having me, Amra.
I know we've had um so busy, somany things going on, but we've
made it.
Demet Divaroren (01:41):
Finally we've made it.
Amra Pajalic (01:43):
Yeah, so I wanted to start sort of a little bit
more um with the beginning ofyour writing career, because you
wrote several novels beforeliving on Hope Street, and there
were ejections that lasted overa decade.
Yeah.
So what internal shift finallyunlocked publication?
Process, um, perspective,perseverance.
Demet Divaroren (02:06):
I think, and practice, practice, practice.
Practice, practice.
I think um those are earlynovels, so Odd Iight, which was
um shortlisted for the VogelAward way back when I was
eligible.
Yes.
Amra Pajalic (02:23):
That one's under certified.
That's right.
Demet Divaroren (02:28):
Um, and I was still studying at um VU,
professional writing and editingum diploma.
So it was it was a practicenovel, and I'm so glad that it
didn't end up being publishedbecause it was very it was um
undercooked.
Yeah, we had a lot of heart, itwas, you know, it's a beautiful
(02:48):
story.
And many of the themes that Iwas exploring ended up in Living
on Hope Street and also uh toan extent in Blood Moon Bride.
Um, so definitely perseverance.
Uh I just wouldn't give up.
So it was like rejection,rejection, rejection for what I
ate after, you know, um it wascelebrated in such a beautiful
(03:09):
way with the shortlisting.
And then um I wrote Road toSanta Fe, which I barely
remember now, but again, um uhI'm all I always seem to be
exploring those really uh darkthemes, intense themes, which is
not uh it's not a bad thing,it's um you know art and uh
(03:33):
writing, it's all a reflectionof of real life.
So um, so yeah, perseveranceafter that, and that was
rejected, I don't know, athousand times.
And then along came growing upMuslim and Australia.
Now, this was the the pointwhere um my my perspective
(03:54):
changed a little bit because ofwhat what I mean by that is um
perspective in terms of craft.
Yes.
So we edited um thousands andthousands and thousands of
words, and we were mining allthese beautiful stories about
dual identity, about crushingyou know, those stereotypes, and
um, you know, just umcelebrating our shared humanity,
(04:20):
I guess.
So um thousands and thousandswe had to kind of sift through
and find the threads of uh ofthese beautiful stories.
And I think after that two-yearprocess, Living on Hope Street
is told from seven differentperspectives, and it kind of um
it there's they're really short,sharp scenes.
(04:43):
So I think this book reallyhelped me gain access to uh a
new style of short, sharp sortof um writing that that yeah,
that really gave birth in a wayto Hope Street.
Amra Pajalic (04:59):
Yeah, I think for me also, um, because I went on
and wrote my memoir after this,yeah.
And I really feel that steppinginto the shoes of being an
editor and really um becausethere were some pieces we edited
so absolutely, and and when webecause I've been using this
quite a bit in the classroom, wekind of developed a style in
terms of how we edited, and Ican see how that style
(05:22):
influenced me with my memoir andinfluenced you uh in terms of
your opening with uh anecdoteand then the action and stuff.
Demet Divaroren (05:31):
Would is would it be fair to say when we say um
edited, we absolutely respectedthe story, and but I'm talking
purely like words, like therewas a story that was 10,000
words, and we had to kind of umcondense condense to about
3,000.
Yeah, so yeah, um, I thinkthat's an important point to
(05:53):
answer.
Amra Pajalic (05:53):
Yeah, so we'll we were working with um you know
people who are at differentstages of their writing journey.
Um, and there were uh somelessons for us along the way.
After that, 100%.
Yeah, but I I I don't know, itwas a fascinating process, and I
really feel like um theapprenticeship that it gave me,
yeah, like it really changed.
(06:15):
And once I opened my eyes, Ithink it almost feels like you
opened your eyes to the editingpart of it, and and now we've
got it when we write, there'sthat.
Yeah, that's always been yeah,yeah.
So that's great.
So um, so in a sense, I thinkyou've answered the second
question.
So living on Hope Street is araw contemporary realism,
(06:37):
because it's dealing with theseven characters.
I'm actually sorry I forgot tobring it because what I love
about that book is the cover hasgot the silhouettes of all of
the characters, and then whenyou're reading it, each um
character's got their name andtheir silhouette so that you
know whose point of view it is.
Um, and it's a beautiful novelbecause it's it's the different
(06:59):
perspectives and seeing thestories from the different
perspectives and really tellingthe story of Australia of all
the two apps, themulticulturalism of Australia.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
I love that about it.
Can you tell us about BloodMoon Bride?
Give me my give me your pitch.
What's your elevator pitch ofin practicing?
Demet Divaroren (07:17):
I'm wrong.
I don't do elevator pitchesbecause like they last 15
minutes.
My elevator sessions are quitelong.
I kind of get stuck in them.
And then and then I try sohard.
Like when I give a reallycondensed pitch, then I, you
(07:38):
know, I really omit some key,very key things in the world.
Well, all right, give me the15-minute glitch.
Okay, so Blood Moon Bride.
Blood Moon Bride.
Um, it is a story of Vea.
Um, she lives in Menama Valley,and this is a valley uh that is
(08:02):
ruled by quite a ruthless umand greedy governor who um is in
the business of using andabusing people and taking away
their rights.
Um it is a world full of yes,oppression and injustice and uh
(08:22):
but also love and family andconnection to land and
connection to self.
So um Rea is well uh thegovernor, Governor Kyra, he uh
uh sends boys off to war and uhmarries girls off um quite young
(08:44):
so that they can help thevalley and they can breed
children and Rhea and a lot ofpeople are disgusted by this
process, and she um has achoice.
Does she submit to thisruthless system or does she
rebel?
And spoiler alert, she doesrebel, she does fight back, and
for her efforts, she's sent tothe nest um a place to
(09:09):
rehabilitate or brainwash umbelly folk into uh you know
submitting to this system.
So it is I know it sounds dark.
Amra Pajalic (09:25):
Dystopia is dark.
We love dystopia is dark.
Demet Divaroren (09:31):
The world is a dark place, yeah, it can be,
yes, is, um, and I feel likefantasy is a really beautiful
way to help especially youngpeople come to terms with some
of these themes um that arevery, very real.
(09:53):
And um it could help them justprocess and find ways that they
can fight back against systemsthat might be oppressing them or
um you know, in the real world,or oppressing others.
And so I think these are reallyimportant themes, and it and
this book came to me at a timewhere my life drastically
(10:16):
changed.
I became a mother um uh firstto Zara and then uh to River.
So I uh I wrote many drafts ofthis story.
To get to this story, I wrotemany drafts of another
fantastical sort of novel, andthrough that I found Menama
Valley, and then it was justthis big, messy, messy journey.
(10:40):
But I wouldn't change it foranything because for me,
writing, especially in those umpostpartum anxiety days, writing
was my one of the only, or oneof the best ways I should say.
Though there are other ways, ofcourse, my family grounds me,
but be just sinking my teeth andmy heart and my emotions and
(11:05):
and the creativity into aproject really helped me take a
step back from my own anxietyand just channel everything into
this world, all of my passions,disappointments, my love, my
hope for a better future for abetter world.
(11:25):
So it really helped me in somany ways.
See, elevator pitch.
We were stuck in it for about10 minutes.
Sorry.
Amra Pajalic (11:34):
That is beautiful because you know what you're
talking about, because we'reboth very dark riders, we both
really explore dark themes,yeah.
Um, and you know, we havewalked in darkness, but we also
walk in light.
Demet Divaroren (11:47):
We have some optimistic people who choose to
be full of light, but we areaware, yes, and the light.
Thank you for reminding me.
See, this is the elevatorbitch, and the things that I
forget to say, but you saidlight, and light is absolutely
at the core of this novel.
Yes.
And I asked the question (12:05):
what is it that we inherit from our
ancestors?
How do we carry thatinheritance um, you know,
forward?
And I think storytelling, art,um, song, dance, these are the
things that they they carrythrough generations and they
(12:25):
echo through generations, andthey tell a story of of you
know, those who came before.
And I think um there is so muchlight, yes, and also in the
world, and so much beauty thatis just worth fighting for.
Amra Pajalic (12:42):
And I think, you know, we read fiction, um, like
in a reason why I'm now in thecrime fiction world.
Yeah, I read crime fiction tofeel that sense of justice and
to feel that sense of um, youknow, resolution.
And it's the same with fantasy.
We read it because it echoesreality and it echoes what's
going on in the real world, butit gives us that sense of
(13:04):
resolution, that sense ofjustice, that sense of, you
know, um rebelling and standingup for things matter.
And so, you know, even thoughit is fiction, it really uh
holds space and you know, it isvery important.
And I especially think, youknow, young adult fiction, when
we're writing for 15,16-year-olds, writing for 15,
(13:26):
16-year-old selves.
Yeah, you know, that's thething.
We're always sort of writingwhat we wish we had and the
stories that we want um youngpeople to read, you know, even
though there are so many of uswho are adults and we still love
young adult fiction.
Demet Divaroren (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's one of my favorite genresto read.
Amra Pajalic (13:45):
Yeah.
I don't know, just so visceraland so real, and the sense of
coming and becoming.
Speaker 02 (13:50):
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (13:51):
Um, I mean, we're doing that throughout our lives,
you know, the coming and thebecoming.
Demet Divaroren (13:55):
Yes, yes, we are always coming of age.
I said this the other day.
Um, where was I in the schooltalk?
And I said, we if you if youguys think that, you know,
adults have got it together, youknow, like sure, we may have
moments of yes, we're soconfident in our lives, in in
our um, you know, where we'reat, where we're going.
(14:18):
But then something will happenand it'll change all that.
We have to regroup.
So we're always coming of age,yes, forever and ever.
It's a permanent thing.
Uh identity is constantlyshifting.
So it's I I reckon that's verytrue.
We're always we're alwaysevolving, and I think that's why
I'm so drawn to YA.
Amra Pajalic (14:41):
Because it's our first one, it's the first and
the primary.
Demet Divaroren (14:44):
So yeah, it sets the tone.
Yes.
It sets the tone.
So for me in high school, Iwent through a period where I
was just like de for demandbecause I was kind of an
underachiever, and you know,that was my average grade.
So until about year 10, I justkind of laughed along with my
friends, and yeah, yeah, that'swho I am.
(15:05):
I I I fed that narrative, andthis therefore I became that
narrative.
So, um, and it took three wordsfor me to change all that, and
I've taken that with me throughto adulthood, and even now I'll
the words are why not me?
(15:26):
Why not me?
Why can't I get good grades?
Why can't I um get published?
Um why not me?
It requires a a a skill thatall writers need, and that is
(15:48):
the ability to, you know, towrite, you know, to to dig in to
creativity.
We've all got that as humanbeings, so why not me?
So yes, it does.
It's a I reckon why um or ourteen years, it does give us the
foundation, and some of thatdoes not change.
Amra Pajalic (16:08):
Yeah.
So you discovered early on, youat least figured it out in high
school.
Uh it took me until my early20s to kind of figure out um
that I could achieve and that Icould do things.
Demet Divaroren (16:20):
Yeah.
Um yeah, and it it it is soyeah, those those formative
experiences were kind of I thinkit's because it's so miserable,
it's like the strongest ones,but then every decade after that
we're constantly evolving.
What held you back?
Why 20s?
Um, for me, it was the factbecause my mum was bipolar and
life at home was so chaotic,there was no space at all to
(16:44):
figure out me and to focus onme.
It was always in reaction to.
So it was only when I gotmarried, because I'm married
when I was very young, I was 19,still married to the same
person, um, my husband for 28years.
And it was only because um Iwas married, I was an adult, I
(17:04):
had stability, I had space,yeah, and I had a cheerleader.
I never had a cheerleaderbefore that.
Absolutely.
I never had because you know,the thing about bipolar that a
lot of people don't get is thatit is um something that makes
people very self-involved.
Yeah.
And so, you know, it wasn't mymum's fault, but she was just
incredibly self-involved, and sothere was no space for me.
(17:28):
Um, and yeah, like I think thatthat was it, having that
stability to actually kind of belike, oh, what do I want?
And what people don'tunderstand, I remember when I
was in my early 20s, too manypeople were like, um, oh, being
an adult, oh my god, payingbills and doing that.
(17:48):
And I'm like, this is awesome!Nobody, because you know, I went
to so many different schools, Ilived in so many different
houses, I was in foster homes.
Yeah, my every day would justimplode in a moment.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:04):
And so for me, being an adult and going, I pick
where I live, I pick who I livewith, I pick who is in my life,
I pick where I work, I pickwhat I do.
Demet Divaroren (18:15):
These were like You had control over your life.
Yes.
You were, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:19):
Yeah, and so that was the the big revelation for
me.
But you know, we don't stop, weare still constantly evolving
and becoming different people.
Well, not different people, butlike, you know, finding
different things, we're good atfinding our strengths, yeah,
realizing what we want to let goof.
Yeah, yeah.
I just think that young adultthing is is when it's so
(18:40):
visceral.
Demet Divaroren (18:41):
And the important thing is um to be able
to embrace change.
Yes, you know, so whether it'swith our writing, being able to
actually try new things, yeah.
Amra Pajalic (18:52):
So you from contemporary realism to fantasy.
Demet Divaroren (18:58):
Yeah, so that was a big shift.
That was a huge shift, and umit had to be that way.
As I said, I really needed thatdistance away from reality, I
needed that safe space to beable to pour all of these, you
know, um intense emotions andthoughts and feelings just into
(19:21):
this world.
So that was really importantfor the world building, uh
liberating, sure, because thenyou're not tethered to facts and
you know, the contemporaryworld has, you know, the the
rules of um contemporary worldand um bound by cultural rules
as well, and all of that.
(19:42):
Um, so yes, liberating in in areally beautiful way, but also
oh my gosh.
Speaker 01 (19:49):
So in the place it's so hard.
The rules, the community, likeit's it's a very complex world
building.
Speaker 02 (20:01):
Yeah, it was it was very the the geography.
I've I've never been good withgeography.
Like you're not good at it.
And it's like I had to actuallythink of you know where rivers
are placed and what's behindhere and what's I you know it's
good because if you neededcomplication, you can just add
(20:22):
silt.
I don't know.
Um so yeah, it was fun, butalso got to a point where I was
like, oh wow, this is this is alot, and where I had to
actually, you know, create amap.
Me with maps, I can't even drawstick figures, and I had to
(20:43):
even yeah, with an app.
It was just hard but wonderfulexperience, and yeah, I I I
loved it.
Speaker 01 (20:52):
I it's fun to it's it's a great novel, and uh the
latest news is it's being madeinto an audiobook.
Speaker 02 (20:58):
Yeah, we were listening to auditions.
Yes, it's so exciting, yeah.
Um that will be the Blood RimBride audiobook will be
published, I believe, early2026.
So that'll be great.
It'll be lovely to see um itreaching new audiences.
Speaker 01 (21:17):
And I think like a young adult, um, you know, I was
actually having parent teachinginterviews, and I'm like uh
with students who are EALstudents, and the parents are
always like, what do we do?
And I'm like, watch TV withsubtitles on.
Listen to audiobooks and havethe physical book in front of
you because it's learningpronunciation.
(21:37):
Absolutely.
Um and I've been looking atsome research in terms of you
know, um, people who listen toaudiobooks, it does help the
vocabulary development.
Uh, it's still as if you are umreading it yourself.
Yeah.
Um, because there are somesilly people who are like, oh,
audiobooks are not as likeyou're not reading.
Uh yes, you are.
(21:57):
I've still got pictures in myhead.
Speaker 02 (21:59):
Yeah, well, I um Zara and Ribba uh no, Zara and I
were listening to snippets of ayoung adult audiobook just the
other day, and she's like, Ohmum, this doesn't sound like
like a book.
It sounds like like acting, oryou know, and I said like
theater, it's like a play.
And she said, yes.
And I said, that's the beautyof it.
(22:21):
It gives you a totallydifferent experience.
Speaker 01 (22:25):
And what I love about it is pronunciations, yes,
because especially like withyour world, it's a whole, you
know, fantasy world that is set,uh, and so that like I'm liking
how uh then your people willhear the pronunciations and all
the stuff.
Speaker 02 (22:40):
Do you know?
Funny, funny and funnilyenough, um I struggled more,
like when Living Hope Streetaudio was coming out, and I had
to fill in a form with umpronunciations and tips.
You know, because it's set inmulticultural Australia, we've
(23:01):
got so many different umcultures and and names, and um,
and of course, Mrs.
Aslan, lots of Turkish kind ofwords in there, and so oh my
goodness, that was really,really difficult to um just
write it, like spell it out, orjust um, yeah, is it the
phonetic, phonetic, thephonetics of it?
Speaker 01 (23:23):
Yeah, or yeah, when I was doing my audiobooks, I
recorded all of the names andall of the you know, because I'm
like they need to hear it.
Speaker 02 (23:33):
Hear it.
I used I was spelling it out,and I think possibly a few
things I did record, but withthis one, this is why I was
like, nah, the world isuniversal.
Guess what?
All the names are universal,and they're you know, um not
(23:53):
straightforward.
They're still exotic, sure.
Um, I don't like that term, butI can't think of a better one
at the moment.
But um still I wanted auniversal feel to this world.
It was really, really importantto me.
Um, I don't um yeah, I evenmade it a point not to describe
(24:13):
people in terms of um you know,their skin colour or any I was
really careful not to add anyracial identifiers.
Yes.
It was really important.
So in that in that way, it wasa huge shift again um from Hope
Street, you know, which wasexploring all of the beauty of
culture and you know, and and itwas perfect for that book and
(24:37):
it was necessary for that book.
But for this one, I was like,it's fantasy, human first.
That was my motto.
People who were reading thisbook, I want them to be able to
recognize um their sharedhumanity with these characters.
So for these characters, theirhumanity had to come first.
Speaker 01 (24:58):
And I like that, yeah.
That's the thing about fantasy,you know, it is set in a
different world.
You don't, you know, peoplelook differently.
And I know that there's beensome discussions about other
fantasy books.
That is the joy of it.
It is about just taking, youknow, creating a different
world.
Within this world, yes, it hasechoes to our world, but it
still functions just for thethemes, yeah, in a sense, and
(25:21):
the story first.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (25:24):
And yeah, everyone does it differently.
And who knows what I'll do withthe next one?
Who knows what the next onewill be?
Just quietly.
But anyway, let's see.
Well, that's more love.
Well, actually, have youstarted working on the next one?
Next question.
Next question.
You're still in the throes ofpublicity for this.
I have started something, but Iwon't.
It's too early.
Speaker 01 (25:44):
Fair enough.
Um, okay, so I sort of wantedto um you talked a little bit
about of family and generationsand the influence.
Um, and you talked about, youknow, your grandmother labored
immediately after giving birth.
You married your mother marriedyoung, so the stories of
(26:04):
resilience.
So what what are the shiftsthat you see between, you know,
like in a sense of how how isthat an inspiration?
How is that an influence?
How is that because I I seethat as an influence in your
writing and in the way you'reapproaching it, but I just
wanted you to talk about that.
Speaker 02 (26:20):
The women in our, you know, I the women in our
lives, and um I mentioned likethose of who have come before
and the echoes of of theirexperiences and resilience.
I always say, I come from along line of resilient women.
Um and yes, storytelling hasmade me better understand.
(26:42):
So when I listen to mygrandmother and she talks about
her mom and their connection andum the lack of opportunities
they had to study.
Um, but then you know, like mygreat-grandmother um wanted her
daughter to study, but then wasalso very afraid of it because,
you know, back then in the 50s,in cultures across the world,
(27:08):
um, I think it was, you know,girls girls studying, I guess,
um, they were up againstpoverty, they were up against
um, you know, um illiterate kindof parents, and and my
great-grandmother wasilliterate.
Um yeah, yeah.
(27:29):
And so but my grandmotherlearned, so this is through
generations, how did the theseshifts happen?
My grandmother learned how towrite and read.
And I remember exchangingletters with her when I was
young.
Um, so that was a a doorway forus to connect, even in
(27:50):
childhood, even though we werethousands of kilometers away in
Turkey and Australia.
And then my you know, my mum,unfortunately, unfortunately,
she's one of eight children.
She didn't get a chance tostudy past primary school.
Uh, that really became that wasa game changer for her, and it
was um her golden ticket, Iguess, because it opened up the
(28:15):
world to her through literature,particularly through fiction.
So she was a huge reader, andso what she did was okay, my
daughters will study.
My daughters will not getmarried young.
They will study, they will befinancially stable, they will
(28:35):
have lives first, and then theywill, you know, choose to get
married when they're ready.
So complete, so that's likethree is it three generation
samurai?
Because like my numeracyskills, really, one, two,
grandmother, mama, yeah.
So, so you can see like the theshifts and the ripple effects
(28:56):
of yeah, of of change and alsolegacy and resilience, you know,
and and resistance.
How do we how do we resist umthese cycles?
How do we resist um yeah, likehow to create then change and
(29:18):
yeah, all of those kinds ofelements are really and and
yeah, this book is notautobiographical, it's fantasy.
No, but I I um you know I'mpassionate about these topics.
Yes, you know, we keep comingback to those stories.
Speaker 01 (29:35):
Come back to these stories that really kind of
shaped us.
Yeah, yeah.
And I also think um what you'retalking about in terms of you
know, uh each generation, thatis such an Australian story that
each generation has theopportunity to do better because
we kind of stand on theshoulders of the previous
generations where they're theones sacrificing and we do
(29:56):
better.
And so I talked to that, Italked to Sophia about that.
unknown (29:59):
Um
Speaker 01 (30:00):
Um because you know, in a sense we're we're in the
same boat where was our parentsand where the second children
are.
The third.
And I'm like, you're going tobe a better version of me.
You are going to achieve thingsmore than me, earlier, better,
because they will have thebenefit of us being able to
translate the education system,the opportunities.
(30:22):
Whereas for me, it was reallyno networks.
No, I didn't even understandhow university worked when I was
in high school.
Yeah.
I didn't understand so manythings, didn't have any cultural
capital that our children haveaccess to because of who we are
and the fact that we've, youknow, had those things.
So yeah, like it's it's just umit's really it makes you so
(30:45):
grateful, but also it gives youa sense of responsibility to
achieve and to move.
Like there is there is a littlebit of pressure, do you feel?
Speaker 02 (30:53):
Yeah, of course.
And especially like there's a Ithink about this a lot.
So I have um a boy and a girl.
And so for me, I think about ohmy gosh, there's such there's
such pressure for me to even umuh not moderate, but just kind
(31:17):
of think really seriously aboutthe words that come out of my
mouth.
So the pressure of raisingchildren is immense, of course.
And then the messaging and andthen and so I raise them, I
always say this, I raise themequally.
I call them beauties.
I don't just reserve beauty formy girl.
(31:40):
It's you're both beautiful,you're amazing, you're creative,
and but when it comes to genderroles, absolutely I am over
like I'm not overthinking.
I am thinking carefully andintentionally about the words
that come out of my mouth.
The dishwasher needs to be umcleaned, they are both doing it,
(32:01):
they are working together.
They're life skills, they'renot reserved for one or the
other.
Yes, and that in itself is somuch pressure, and there is so
much energy that goes intotrying to just expose them as
much as I absolutely can to alevel of you know equality.
Speaker 01 (32:20):
I'm not gonna do you feel like that is also um
because of our background wherewe come from?
No, it's because of the worldthat they're going into.
Speaker 02 (32:29):
Yeah, it's absolutely about that.
Of course, back yes, of course,like it's just that's part of
the world as well.
Speaker 01 (32:36):
I come from Bosnian culture, which is very gendered,
very patriarchal, and yeah,Turkey culture is is like as
well to a degree, yeah.
Yeah, so women are the ones whoare supposed to do all the
household chores.
Yeah, so in my household, myjoke is um, you know, whenever
Sophia's like, oh, um, I'mhungry, I'm like, you've got a
father for that.
Um she's like, you know, I Ineed something.
(32:58):
I'm like, you've got a fatherfor that.
That's that's what a father isfor.
Um I I don't do anything interms of housework and booking
uh and shopping, he's the one.
So that's always my thing.
I'm like, that's what men arefor.
That's his role.
Uh so I just flip itcompletely.
Speaker 02 (33:15):
And yeah, and and look, of course, like I'm not
denying that our cultures sharethat many, many cultures have
that, you know, patriarchal kindof and gendered roles and
patriarchal societies.
I mean, we do live in the livein a patriarchal society, and
(33:36):
this is, you know, they go outinto the playground and they
hear things like, oh, girls areweak, chuck them in the creek,
and I just, you know, when Ihear that, I hear that um from
many, many children.
Like we're at we're at aplayground, and people will be
like kids will just be throwingthings like that around, and I
(33:57):
have to sit and say, okay, let'sflip that, you know, like or I
try and explain that and I'lltry and make something fun out
of it that isn't got nothing todo with you know gender.
Speaker 01 (34:10):
It starts, it starts in the playground, and I just
it's just so fascinating, butalso frustrating, and it's just
we've got our word cut out forus, but what I'm stuck on is
like how that always come upwith these like rhymes that are
like the worst rhymes, like theworst racist rhymes, the worst
sexist rhymes.
That's always the rhymes wherethey just like you know, they
(34:33):
get so catchy, yeah.
Speaker 02 (34:34):
They get catchy, but um, you know, kids hear it from
adults, I think.
And the power of language thatis the power of language and the
power of what we're doing.
It is absolutely language iseverything, yeah.
It is everything, yeah, youknow.
Speaker 01 (34:49):
Well, I wanted to kind of bring it back to what
advice do you have for umpeople?
No, no, writing, creativity, umbiggest lesson, biggest lesson.
What can I say?
Writing and creativity.
(35:10):
I mean, I think for you theperseverance story is the one.
Okay, we've talked about thisbefore where I've said we have
both met so many talentedwriters uh in our journey and in
this path, um, who gave upbefore, you know, they they um
kind of didn't keep pushingthrough.
(35:31):
Yeah.
And uh we're kind of thesurvivors.
Speaker 02 (35:37):
It's it's really, really hard to stay motivated,
to stay um, yeah, to keep to tokeep the faith, I guess.
And yeah, it took 12 yearsuntil I published a novel, and I
thought I would achieve that ina handful of years.
Speaker 00 (35:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 02 (35:58):
Um, and and I think so persistence, keep practicing,
keep making the time forwriting.
But before you do anything, youhave to believe in yourself.
Because once you believe inyourself, and I always say this,
then it's infectious, thenothers start believing in you.
You have to believe in yourselfand just stick to it and don't
(36:22):
put a time frame on publicationor or any kind of reward,
because if that's why you'redoing it, it's gonna end in a
heartache, because even likewhen you do get published and
you do um like win an award, oryou know, no matter what, um
(36:48):
it's an innate thing.
So the external things cannotsustain you.
Because then after that, youstill have to sit down and write
something and have the staminaand perseverance and motivation
to stick at it for like fiveyears, for example.
You know, you can get it donein two and a half, but really
we've each taken five years withsome of our books.
Speaker 01 (37:10):
Yeah, some of them had a really long percolation
and went through so manyincarnations, yeah.
And uh, and that's because wejust we could not let go of
them.
Speaker 02 (37:22):
And yeah, you have to maintain that motivation.
So no one else is gonna do itfor you.
It's an innate thing that needsto be nurtured.
So again, elevator pitch,right?
Just gone on a deep tangent.
Hey, that's what we do.
This is what we do.
It's the best way I can explainit.
Um yeah, just don't give up.
(37:44):
If it's something that trulyspeaks to your soul and your
heart, and it just gives youlife, just keep doing it.
Speaker 01 (37:53):
I think trust, trust in it.
Um, yeah, and that's that'swhat your journey has proven.
Where you know, uh just like alittle too tuned.
Yeah.
Trying.
Thank you so much.
It was so good.
Uh, usually we have our chatswithout the camera, so you know,
this time we recorded forposterity.
Speaker 02 (38:12):
And congratulations, Amaral.
Thank you.
It's a beautiful book.
I've started reading it.
It's a beautiful, beautifulbook.
It's a hard read, isn't it?
It's a hard read, but it is itis wonderful.
Thank you.
Congratulations.
Yes, we know all about the longgame, don't we, guys?
(38:33):
Yes.
All right, well, thank you.
Thank you.
Speaker 00 (38:37):
Thank you for tuning into Amra's armchair anecdotes.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more inside storiesand inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
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