July 7, 2025 • 28 mins
Writer Fikret Pajalic shares his journey from Bosnian refugee to published author, exploring how personal trauma became award-winning fiction through determination and craft. His short story collection "Complication" draws on refugee experiences, cross-cultural challenges, and unexpected connections.
• Began writing as therapy for PTSD after arriving in Australia as a refugee in 1994
• Developed a "revolving door submissions" strategy, persisting through multiple rejections
• Published in prestigious literary journals including Meanjin, Overland, and international magazines
• Named his collection "Complication" after watchmaking terminology, reflecting life's complexities
• Stories explore themes of refugee experiences, western suburbs life, racism, and cultural displacement
• Animals appear as recurring motifs throughout his stories
• Received grants from Creative Victoria (2014) and Australia Council (2015)
• Balance between staying true to artistic vision while being open to editorial guidance
• Writing process involves transforming both personal experiences and stories from his community
• Continues to navigate the residual mental health impacts of refugee experiences
Find the episode show notes, free episode handouts and how-to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amra Pajalic (00:01):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer,teacher and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing life
and lessons learned, sharingwisdom from my armchair to yours
.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts and my how-to guides atamrapajalic/ podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
This is the first episode of mypodcast as I transition into an
interview podcast, and my firstinterviewee is Fikret Payalich.
(00:42):
And my first interviewee isFikret Pajalic.
.
He came to Melbourne as arefugee, learned English in his
mid-20s and started writing.
He won and placed incompetitions, published in
anthologies and literarymagazines.
His fiction has appeared inMeanjin Overland Westerly
Etching.
Sleepers Antipodes the BigIssue Hotel America Wisconsin
(01:04):
Review sleepers antipodes thebig issue Hotel America
Wisconsin review Minnesotareview so many, so many places.
Um, I think, over 50 publishingcredits internationally for his
short stories and um he wasawarded in 2014 and created
victoria grant in 2015, anAustralian council grant for the
(01:24):
development of his literarymanuscript.
He is married to me, so we'veactually been married for 28
years and he is the first authorthat I published under my press
.
Fish you can press.
This is his short storycollection.
It's called complication and sowelcome, fictitious, to my
podcast.
Thank you.
(01:44):
Being my first my guinea pig,I'm calling him as I learn how
to transition into an interviewpodcast.
So first I just wondered couldyou tell me and the audience
about how and why you startedwriting short stories?
Fikret Pajalic (02:02):
Okay, so I came toia as a refugee in 1994 and it
took me about 10 years torealize that I suffer from ptsd.
That was the time when peopleweren't talking about mental
health issues, especially men.
So, uh, it took me a while torealize I suffered from, yeah,
(02:24):
post-traumatic stress.
At the time I worked for theDepartment of Justice and I
witnessed something which wasreally disturbing and part of
the process was to get to go toEAP Employee Assistance Program
(02:45):
and I spoke with a counselor,had a few sessions and then she
suggested that I maybe I shouldput some of my previous
experiences in writing so that,in a way, that's you're supposed
to deal with it.
But it was a bit of a catch-22for me because or double-edged
(03:07):
sword, I should say Every time Iwrote something I got hurt
again.
So it triggered a little bit.
Yeah, it was triggering, but Ikept writing and she read some
of the stuff and then she saidmaybe you should turn some of
this stuff.
And then she said maybe youshould turn some of this stuff
into stories or something likethat.
Amra Pajalic (03:29):
And then like a memoir type of thing, but I
wasn't really in the mood to domemoir.
Fikret Pajalic (03:37):
So some of the stuff that I went through I
turned into short stories.
So that's kind of how itstarted.
But it took a while for me tokind of get them really to a
publishing standard.
A lot of reading writing groups, that sort of stuff, so that's
how I started.
Amra Pajalic (03:56):
So can you talk to me about getting your stories
published and your approach tothat?
Fikret Pajalic (04:01):
Well, I remember writing my first story.
It was called Leaving.
It was about 700 words wordsand you read it.
Amra Pajalic (04:08):
That's right.
Fikret Pajalic (04:09):
I was kind of his mentor and I asked for
feedback and I thought it wasthe best thing ever, and then
you pulled it apart.
Amra Pajalic (04:18):
We got a little bit of a tiff.
As you do when you're anemerging writer, it's very hard.
Fikret Pajalic (04:23):
I was at that time still precious, yeah.
So it took me a couple of daysto get over it and start
rewriting and taking yourfeedback into you know, putting
it all together Then it turnedout to be like almost 3,000
words story.
The biggest takeaway from thefirst feedback is show, don't
(04:46):
tell.
In writing you have to showthings rather than just say yeah
.
And shortly after I joined awriting group at Caroline
Springs Library, which was areally good one, because there
(05:06):
were a lot of aspiring authorsor writers who gave fantastic
feedback and that helped youfurther polish the story,
started submitting and developedthis strategy of revolving door
submissions, where I alwaysassumed that when I send a story
(05:31):
to a magazine, that it's goingto be knocked back and I already
had planned where the story'sgoing to go next.
So if I'm submitting to Mianjin, they're going to knock me back
.
So I'm going to go to Overlandthey're going to knock me back.
I'm going to go to a shortstory competition, maybe.
(05:52):
So I just kept submitting,never expecting to be published,
and when you get published,it's great.
Amra Pajalic (06:01):
And can you talk about, because with Overland and
M and the Engine, one of themtook 12 submissions and one 14
submissions yeah, I don't knowwhich one, but it took a while.
Fikret Pajalic (06:11):
and basically you kind of keep knocking on the
door and when they realizeyou're serious editors with both
those magazines, they kind ofthey take you seriously.
They give you more in-depthfeedback, yes, or suggestion
where to go with your story.
It's not for us but try thereand things like that.
(06:33):
But yeah, when I got publishedin Overland that was like a big
tick.
Big tick, yeah, and thensubsequently I think I got
published another two or threetimes at least with them.
But Mianjin was one that Ireally wanted to get in, because
they're like the literaryjournal, and I got a few
(06:59):
knockbacks and eventually gotpublished.
It was Complication Story,which is a title of the short
story collection as well, and itwas Zora Sanders who was editor
at the time and she was reallykind and patient and took me to
the steps, a lot of feedback andI published the story even with
(07:22):
her.
Even further and, yeah, thatwas like when that got published
in the engine.
I was really happy.
Amra Pajalic (07:30):
And what was your view about working with editors
when they gave you feedback?
Fikret Pajalic (07:35):
Well, it depends on the editor.
Like with these moreestablished magazines, they're
really good, especially ifthey've been in the job for a
few years.
But I had some kind of weirdexperiences with new magazines
where editors and othersexperienced that they tried to
(07:56):
chop and change a lot, I guess.
But it was only like once ortwice where I decided my story
was accepted but it just wasn'ta good fit.
There was the vision of themagazine and my story and I'm
like, yeah, change this, changethe other thing.
(08:17):
And blah, blah, blah.
I remember being published inone of the American journals I
can't remember what it is.
I remember being published inone of the American journals I
can't remember what it is and Isubmitted like a four, four and
a half thousand point story andthey said that she slashed it to
2,000 words.
My favorite author is RaymondCarver and he got advice from
(08:50):
his long time editor.
I can't remember his name Ithink his surname is Leish
something he told Raymond Carverevery time he wrote a sentence
that's 15 words, make it 5.
So that's what she did withthat story and when I read it
first, I'm like what did she do?
I'm like wow.
(09:10):
Then I read it again, thenagain I'm like, oh, my god, she
made it really good, really tothe point.
It was like every sentencecounted, so yeah, so yeah.
99% of the time I just go withthe editor, because very
occasionally they don't knowwhat they're doing, but very
(09:32):
occasionally so then you have totake a stand, you say no, I
can't change that.
Amra Pajalic (09:37):
Yeah, and you also had these editors write you
letters of support when you wereapplying for the grants?
Fikret Pajalic (09:44):
Yes, zora Sands did, and I can't remember the
name of the other person whowrote it.
I don't know whether it wasJennifer Mills at Overland, I
can't remember.
But yeah, so because youestablish the contact,
especially if you get publisheda few times, because after I got
published with my engine, Iactually wrote my first memoir
(10:08):
piece, which was also publishedin Melbourne.
Amra Pajalic (10:10):
Can you tell us what happened with that?
Fikret Pajalic (10:12):
piece, I don't know.
Amra Pajalic (10:14):
Well, wasn't there an editor who contacted you?
Fikret Pajalic (10:21):
Ah yeah, there was a guy from one of the
publishing houses who said Iwant your piece.
Can you write a memoir?
Amra Pajalic (10:24):
Yes, and how did your wife, who was working on a
memoir for five years?
Fikret Pajalic (10:28):
at the time feel .
But I offered him my shortstory collection but he was
interested in memoir and Ididn't have like 50,000 words
and wasn't ready to yeah, yeah,just memoir's not my thing, but
yeah, but memoir piece in meengine.
It was like a what do they callit?
(10:49):
Narrative fiction, narrative,non-fiction type of thing where
you read it.
When a person reads it,sometimes they're not aware that
it's non-fiction.
Amra Pajalic (11:03):
Yeah, it reads like a fiction piece.
Fikret Pajalic (11:05):
It reads like a fiction piece, but it's actually
that particular memoir piecewhich was nearly 6,000 words, I
think, and for such a long pieceto be published in the engine,
that's like a lot of pages.
Yeah, they dedicated it.
Amra Pajalic (11:31):
So yeah, I'm very proud of that one, because the
only memoir piece I think I'vewritten.
Fikret Pajalic (11:33):
Actually, there was something in Big Issue,
which was 700, 800 words, thatwas published as well, but don't
ask me what it was, I can'tremember, but this is the thing
about short story publicationand short story opportunities.
Amra Pajalic (11:47):
It's building those networks.
And also, what I always comeback to is when you put things
out there, you don't know what'sgoing to come back, who's going
to read it, who's going toconnect with it, what, what
reaction you're going to get.
Um, did you ever have a anotherreaction that like with someone
contacted you?
That was surprising.
Fikret Pajalic (12:03):
I can't think of .
Amra Pajalic (12:04):
Maybe it's been a while since it's published um,
so you had your short storycollection published by a very
prestigious micro-press calledPishukan Press that is run by
someone, so could you talk aboutthe process of collaboration
for the cover and thepublication process.
Fikret Pajalic (12:26):
So, as you know, I've been trying to get short
stories published for a whileand keep getting them back.
It's a hard sell for publishersshort story collections, yeah,
and you know they like thestories.
But they say, oh, I love thisstory, I can expand on it and
blah, blah, blah.
So.
But I really wanted short storycollection published and then I
(12:47):
, you know I was disappointed,got discouraged, didn't think
about it for a few years.
Then you started yourpublishing house and it was a
while before we came to thatkind of idea.
I was practicing, I was likegetting all my books that were
like that too Kind of gettingexperienced in publishing
(13:12):
wherever it's called area, and Ithink it took me a while to see
your point of view, but it'stime because it's not going to
get published somewhere else andyeah, so I'll let you do it.
We've got some good reviews anda few famous Melbourne authors
(13:38):
yeah, so we've got endorsementsfrom.
Lee Kaufman from Lee Kaufmanwhich I was very happy about.
When she said yes, I was sohappy yeah, we've got some
beautiful endorsements.
Amra Pajalic (13:51):
yeah, so that was really, really I was so happy.
Yeah, we've got some beautifulendorsements.
I don't know, a spoon, I think.
Yeah, so that was really,really great.
And also, like you had a visionfor the cover in terms of
complications.
Do you want to talk about that,because we worked on that quite
a bit.
Fikret Pajalic (14:05):
Yeah, so that's, I'm probably going to be
spoiled if I talk too much.
Well, that's okay, becausethere's to be spoiled if I talk
too much.
That's okay Because there's ashort story.
Complication in this collectionand it kind of revolves around
old-fashioned wristwatches andthey all have complications in
(14:29):
their mechanisms, like if theyshow time, that's one
complication, if they showseconds, that's another
complication, and there can bemany, many different
complications.
Those little mechanisms arereferred to in watchbuilding
industry, so some of them theycan show, I don't know, moon
(14:53):
faces or something like that.
That's like really intricatecomplication.
So, and our lives are basicallyfull of complications.
Amra Pajalic (15:04):
Yes.
Fikret Pajalic (15:05):
So, and I think the whole book when it's read.
It's basically you read a story, then another story and you get
to the end.
It's like one complicationafter the other.
Amra Pajalic (15:21):
What would you say are some of the themes that you
deal with?
Fikret Pajalic (15:24):
So it's mostly, you know, australia, western
suburbs refugees, bosnians,burkina's refugees, racism
towards refugees yeah, that's abig one Towards different
cultures and religions andpeople with different names,
(15:45):
like mine that are hard topronounce, and that sort of
stuff.
But also there are a lot ofanimals.
In every story there's ananimal dogs, some cats, mostly
dogs, even though I never had adog, but, yeah, cats.
So there's kind of a themegoing through all stories and
(16:09):
there are motif and symbolism,yeah, so, yeah, that's basically
.
They're all kind of based on myexperience Maybe not all, but
some of them are based on theexperiences of people that I
know or knew and they told methe story Because we share the
(16:30):
history in terms of kind of wewent through war, came as
refugees, but they havedifferent stories and somebody
maybe told me a story.
This is what happened to mybrother when he was in Bosnia
during the war.
Or this is what happened to mysister when she arrived to
Australia.
There was one story with asingle mother and two kids who
(16:52):
arrived from Bosnia to Australianot knowing what happened to
her husband, and so I took thatlittle thread and made it like a
long, long story, developed itfurther without you know.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (17:11):
So, using the inspiration of all these things
that you've heard, people youknew, did it happen to?
Fikret Pajalic (17:16):
me, or it happened to the community I come
from.
Amra Pajalic (17:20):
That's the thing, isn't it?
It's all like we collectstories, especially when we're
writers.
We're just constantly havingconversations and collecting
these stories, and they findtheir way.
Fikret Pajalic (17:29):
Yeah, yeah, we weave them in.
They kind of stay in your headand then, oh, your car, I can
use that.
Amra Pajalic (17:35):
An actual story that you're talking about.
Flock, flock, yes, yeah, it'sreally quite beautiful, because
it's a single mother who's aboutto be evicted.
Fikret Pajalic (17:45):
Evicted yeah.
Amra Pajalic (17:46):
And it's about this hardship.
Fikret Pajalic (17:47):
So all that really happened.
Amra Pajalic (17:49):
Yeah.
Fikret Pajalic (17:50):
But then I kind of.
Amra Pajalic (17:51):
It's also about hope in hopeless situations and
people being good, and gettinghelp from unexpected places.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and that'sthe thing.
Even though your story is, youknow, they have this thread of
sadness and this thread ofreality.
There is this sense of hope andthis sense of joy and this
(18:13):
sense of joy and connection thatpeople find in unexpected
places.
Fikret Pajalic (18:19):
I think on your website you have trigger
warnings because some storiesare very, very confronting and I
got the feedback where peopleread some stories and they feel
like they're being punched.
Amra Pajalic (18:35):
But we both write dark, and so for us we're like
well, this is just life and thisis what we write about um, but
then we sort of they're not alllike that, but there are a few
of them that are quite yeah, andthat's what I do now with um.
A lot of my writing, especiallythe war books that I'm about to
release, I have um contentwarnings where I'm like there's
some people who want to knowabout it.
I don't want to put it in thebook, and we didn't do that with
(18:57):
your book.
We didn't want it in the bookbecause it can be seen as
spoilers and we don't want tospoil it for people.
But, um, if there are peoplewho need to sort of be aware of
certain things, then we've got aqr code and it takes them to a
page where it's got um contentwarnings and you know that way
you've got that heads up.
(19:17):
So we're just sort of trying tonavigate this, because we also
use a lot of real language and alot of um.
You know western suburbs,that's how we talk.
Um, you know that some peoplefind that confrontational.
Now you might have a furthershort story collection in the
works.
I don't know about that.
You don't know about that.
(19:37):
There are more stories becauseyou have written over 50 short
stories.
Fikret Pajalic (19:44):
No, I've written more.
Over 50 have been published.
Amra Pajalic (19:47):
Over 50 every month, so we theoretically could
have another, like another, twocollections worth Theoretically
, yes, so I just need to slowlywork on him and get this sorted,
because this is something thatI want to do.
This is kind of my life's work.
Now, in another area of yourlife, you did a Master's in Arts
(20:08):
Administration and you are nowan arts officer delivering
exhibitions in visual arts inarts councils.
So what advice do you have fornew artists in this area?
Fikret Pajalic (20:21):
so I've worked with a lot of established
artists and emerging artists andit's kind of established
artists they're quite good.
They've been like Lucas Kasper,we both know they know the
process.
And then I guess the mainadvice I have I don't know if
(20:42):
it's even advice, but foremerging artists, like, don't be
precious if somebody approachesyou or you were shortlisted.
If somebody approaches you oryou were shortlisted to be
exhibited by a council here inMelbourne, just take it and work
(21:04):
with the arts officer.
Yes, and try to adjust as muchas you can to their vision,
because it's hard to you know tohave an exhibition, yeah.
And you know, don't be pressured.
So I've seen some of theyounger artists that are like
that's not my vision, I can't.
(21:24):
You know they get threethousand dollars fee, for
example, to be exhibited, butthey're demanding or they're
just kind of not flexibleBecause councils basically they
will never.
Most of them, you know they'renot going to put something on
their walls in the gallerythat's stupid or controversial
(21:48):
so they won't get complaints.
So you know it's your firstexhibition and you're getting
some exposure, so just don't betoo precious about your art.
Amra Pajalic (22:00):
Yes, it's that issue of artists wanting to have
a vision and wanting to pushthe boundaries and seeing this
as perhaps censorship, but it'salso like you have to understand
who is funding this.
Who is paying you for this?
Fikret Pajalic (22:17):
There's always time for that, later with your
next exhibition or later whenyou establish yourself.
Then you can you know, inprivate galleries they can put
whatever they want basically.
So that can be their aim,further than the track.
But to get to that point youneed to, you know, establish,
(22:38):
you need to get exhibited withlocal council yes, that sort of
stuff.
Amra Pajalic (22:42):
So and I guess, going back to talking about the
short stories that you hadpublished and working with
editors, it's about um,developing your, about having
those opportunities and aboutlearning from it and building
your skill level.
Fikret Pajalic (22:57):
It's very similar where you kind of you
trust the editor or, in theircase they trust the arts officer
.
It's nurturing them in a way toget that first exhibition done.
Amra Pajalic (23:19):
And most of them are fine, they accept all of us.
Every now and then you get aperson illusions of grandeur,
it's like oh no.
The problem is sometimes whenthings happen too early and you
don't quite know about the world, you don't realise
opportunities, like I rememberwhen I got published with my
debut novel and I was at aconference called Reading
(23:42):
Matters Conference and I'venever been to that conference.
I didn't know what it was, Ididn't realise what a big deal
that was until years later,where I was like, oh my God,
that was a really big deal.
My publisher, text Publishingat the time, you know, got me on
a panel but I did not have anyidea what that was.
And that's sometimes the issueyou don't realise until
(24:03):
afterwards where you're like oh,that was an amazing opportunity
that I don't know I'll haveagain.
So any last words on the powerof arts for wellbeing and joy.
Fikret Pajalic (24:12):
Oh, I don't know .
I guess if you're a writer,keep writing, if that helps you
deal with your mental issues, ifyou have any, then we all have
some Similar with visual arts.
Amra Pajalic (24:35):
Yeah, what was the question?
Last words on the power of artsfor wellbeing and joy, because
you were talking about that.
You started writing because ofcounselling?
Fikret Pajalic (24:43):
yeah, but for me , it was a bit difficult was it
ultimately cathartic did it help?
I don't know.
Yeah, maybe, maybe you're beingcautious here in terms of our
health.
Yes, I got hurt again, yeah,when I was, you know, putting it
(25:05):
on paper, so you get thatsecondary trauma.
Yeah, yeah, eventually it getsbetter and, like, all depends on
the person I live, you know.
So I don't know, probably notthe best person to give any.
Yeah, eventually it gets better.
It all depends on the person.
I don't know.
I'm probably not the bestperson to give any mental health
advice, because I went throughanxiety and depression and every
now and then I still.
(25:25):
I might have a really badmorning but great afternoon.
It's just kind of up and downor good month and then next
month it's pretty crappy.
Amra Pajalic (25:38):
I guess, since we're talking about it, this is
the residue of being a refugee.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout your experiences as a
refugee in Germany, just to giveeveryone some time?
Fikret Pajalic (25:48):
Austria sorry, I might have confused those two.
I might confuse those two.
Well, I didn't have any statusthere because I was basically
kind of illegal.
In a way it was all in limbobecause Western Europe kind of
didn't experience refugee wavefor a while.
There was almost this thingwhere it's like like how can a
(26:14):
white person be a refugee?
Normally people from my countrywould go to germany and austria
and switzerland to work, youknow, for economic reasons, and
then waves of people came withnothing and it was confronting,
for those societies to see that.
And also I remember I met anEnglishman in Australia who came
(26:38):
as a tourist to do some skiingor whatever.
Because I was in a little townhigh in the Alps, and then he
said something along the line Ican't comprehend that this is
happening to white people.
Amra Pajalic (26:55):
That's what he actually said.
Fikret Pajalic (26:56):
I thought we were.
You know the Western society inEurope.
Yes, that's never going tohappen again, especially after
the Second World War.
What happened to Jewish people?
You know, six million Jews werein the Holocaust and all that
and like, oh, it's happeningagain to another group of white
people can you contextualize thewar?
Amra Pajalic (27:19):
so we're talking about yugoslavia, the breakup of
yugoslavia and the fact thatyou know bosnians um were then
independent and you know therewas a conflict as a result of
that.
So, just so, we have thatcontext, um.
So and you had some reallyterrible things happen when you
were in Austria in terms of thatlimbo and the effects of that.
(27:39):
All right, well, thank you somuch for being my first, it's
hard for me to think about it.
It's hard, but I reallyappreciate you.
Those questions weren't on thelist.
They weren't on the list.
I sort of took the thread.
I wasn't really prepared, no.
So I really appreciate youtalking about that and sharing
(28:01):
that.
Fikret Pajalic (28:02):
So thank you so much, maybe in my next interview
.
Amra Pajalic (28:05):
Maybe for your next short story collection wink
, wink.
So thank you so much for beingmy guinea pig, being the first
person I've interviewed, forhelping me set up the studio.
He has helped me so much interms of all my beautiful
armchairs and all my equipment,and thank you, I hope, to those
of you who might be watching andlistening to this.
(28:27):
Thank you for joining me forthis episode of Amra's Armchair
Anecdotes.
Bye-bye.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
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(28:47):
armchair to yours.
Remember, every story beginswith a single word.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Pajalic, writer,teacher and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing life
and lessons learned, sharingwisdom from my armchair to yours
.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
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handouts and my how-to guides atamrapajalic/ podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
Welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
This is the first episode of mypodcast as I transition into an
interview podcast, and my firstinterviewee is Fikret Payalich.
(00:42):
And my first interviewee isFikret Pajalic.
.
He came to Melbourne as arefugee, learned English in his
mid-20s and started writing.
He won and placed incompetitions, published in
anthologies and literarymagazines.
His fiction has appeared inMeanjin Overland Westerly
Etching.
Sleepers Antipodes the BigIssue Hotel America Wisconsin
(01:04):
Review sleepers antipodes thebig issue Hotel America
Wisconsin review Minnesotareview so many, so many places.
Um, I think, over 50 publishingcredits internationally for his
short stories and um he wasawarded in 2014 and created
victoria grant in 2015, anAustralian council grant for the
(01:24):
development of his literarymanuscript.
He is married to me, so we'veactually been married for 28
years and he is the first authorthat I published under my press
.
Fish you can press.
This is his short storycollection.
It's called complication and sowelcome, fictitious, to my
podcast.
Thank you.
(01:44):
Being my first my guinea pig,I'm calling him as I learn how
to transition into an interviewpodcast.
So first I just wondered couldyou tell me and the audience
about how and why you startedwriting short stories?
Fikret Pajalic (02:02):
Okay, so I came toia as a refugee in 1994 and it
took me about 10 years torealize that I suffer from ptsd.
That was the time when peopleweren't talking about mental
health issues, especially men.
So, uh, it took me a while torealize I suffered from, yeah,
(02:24):
post-traumatic stress.
At the time I worked for theDepartment of Justice and I
witnessed something which wasreally disturbing and part of
the process was to get to go toEAP Employee Assistance Program
(02:45):
and I spoke with a counselor,had a few sessions and then she
suggested that I maybe I shouldput some of my previous
experiences in writing so that,in a way, that's you're supposed
to deal with it.
But it was a bit of a catch-22for me because or double-edged
(03:07):
sword, I should say Every time Iwrote something I got hurt
again.
So it triggered a little bit.
Yeah, it was triggering, but Ikept writing and she read some
of the stuff and then she saidmaybe you should turn some of
this stuff.
And then she said maybe youshould turn some of this stuff
into stories or something likethat.
Amra Pajalic (03:29):
And then like a memoir type of thing, but I
wasn't really in the mood to domemoir.
Fikret Pajalic (03:37):
So some of the stuff that I went through I
turned into short stories.
So that's kind of how itstarted.
But it took a while for me tokind of get them really to a
publishing standard.
A lot of reading writing groups, that sort of stuff, so that's
how I started.
Amra Pajalic (03:56):
So can you talk to me about getting your stories
published and your approach tothat?
Fikret Pajalic (04:01):
Well, I remember writing my first story.
It was called Leaving.
It was about 700 words wordsand you read it.
Amra Pajalic (04:08):
That's right.
Fikret Pajalic (04:09):
I was kind of his mentor and I asked for
feedback and I thought it wasthe best thing ever, and then
you pulled it apart.
Amra Pajalic (04:18):
We got a little bit of a tiff.
As you do when you're anemerging writer, it's very hard.
Fikret Pajalic (04:23):
I was at that time still precious, yeah.
So it took me a couple of daysto get over it and start
rewriting and taking yourfeedback into you know, putting
it all together Then it turnedout to be like almost 3,000
words story.
The biggest takeaway from thefirst feedback is show, don't
(04:46):
tell.
In writing you have to showthings rather than just say yeah
.
And shortly after I joined awriting group at Caroline
Springs Library, which was areally good one, because there
(05:06):
were a lot of aspiring authorsor writers who gave fantastic
feedback and that helped youfurther polish the story,
started submitting and developedthis strategy of revolving door
submissions, where I alwaysassumed that when I send a story
(05:31):
to a magazine, that it's goingto be knocked back and I already
had planned where the story'sgoing to go next.
So if I'm submitting to Mianjin, they're going to knock me back
.
So I'm going to go to Overlandthey're going to knock me back.
I'm going to go to a shortstory competition, maybe.
(05:52):
So I just kept submitting,never expecting to be published,
and when you get published,it's great.
Amra Pajalic (06:01):
And can you talk about, because with Overland and
M and the Engine, one of themtook 12 submissions and one 14
submissions yeah, I don't knowwhich one, but it took a while.
Fikret Pajalic (06:11):
and basically you kind of keep knocking on the
door and when they realizeyou're serious editors with both
those magazines, they kind ofthey take you seriously.
They give you more in-depthfeedback, yes, or suggestion
where to go with your story.
It's not for us but try thereand things like that.
(06:33):
But yeah, when I got publishedin Overland that was like a big
tick.
Big tick, yeah, and thensubsequently I think I got
published another two or threetimes at least with them.
But Mianjin was one that Ireally wanted to get in, because
they're like the literaryjournal, and I got a few
(06:59):
knockbacks and eventually gotpublished.
It was Complication Story,which is a title of the short
story collection as well, and itwas Zora Sanders who was editor
at the time and she was reallykind and patient and took me to
the steps, a lot of feedback andI published the story even with
(07:22):
her.
Even further and, yeah, thatwas like when that got published
in the engine.
I was really happy.
Amra Pajalic (07:30):
And what was your view about working with editors
when they gave you feedback?
Fikret Pajalic (07:35):
Well, it depends on the editor.
Like with these moreestablished magazines, they're
really good, especially ifthey've been in the job for a
few years.
But I had some kind of weirdexperiences with new magazines
where editors and othersexperienced that they tried to
(07:56):
chop and change a lot, I guess.
But it was only like once ortwice where I decided my story
was accepted but it just wasn'ta good fit.
There was the vision of themagazine and my story and I'm
like, yeah, change this, changethe other thing.
(08:17):
And blah, blah, blah.
I remember being published inone of the American journals I
can't remember what it is.
I remember being published inone of the American journals I
can't remember what it is and Isubmitted like a four, four and
a half thousand point story andthey said that she slashed it to
2,000 words.
My favorite author is RaymondCarver and he got advice from
(08:50):
his long time editor.
I can't remember his name Ithink his surname is Leish
something he told Raymond Carverevery time he wrote a sentence
that's 15 words, make it 5.
So that's what she did withthat story and when I read it
first, I'm like what did she do?
I'm like wow.
(09:10):
Then I read it again, thenagain I'm like, oh, my god, she
made it really good, really tothe point.
It was like every sentencecounted, so yeah, so yeah.
99% of the time I just go withthe editor, because very
occasionally they don't knowwhat they're doing, but very
(09:32):
occasionally so then you have totake a stand, you say no, I
can't change that.
Amra Pajalic (09:37):
Yeah, and you also had these editors write you
letters of support when you wereapplying for the grants?
Fikret Pajalic (09:44):
Yes, zora Sands did, and I can't remember the
name of the other person whowrote it.
I don't know whether it wasJennifer Mills at Overland, I
can't remember.
But yeah, so because youestablish the contact,
especially if you get publisheda few times, because after I got
published with my engine, Iactually wrote my first memoir
(10:08):
piece, which was also publishedin Melbourne.
Amra Pajalic (10:10):
Can you tell us what happened with that?
Fikret Pajalic (10:12):
piece, I don't know.
Amra Pajalic (10:14):
Well, wasn't there an editor who contacted you?
Fikret Pajalic (10:21):
Ah yeah, there was a guy from one of the
publishing houses who said Iwant your piece.
Can you write a memoir?
Amra Pajalic (10:24):
Yes, and how did your wife, who was working on a
memoir for five years?
Fikret Pajalic (10:28):
at the time feel .
But I offered him my shortstory collection but he was
interested in memoir and Ididn't have like 50,000 words
and wasn't ready to yeah, yeah,just memoir's not my thing, but
yeah, but memoir piece in meengine.
It was like a what do they callit?
(10:49):
Narrative fiction, narrative,non-fiction type of thing where
you read it.
When a person reads it,sometimes they're not aware that
it's non-fiction.
Amra Pajalic (11:03):
Yeah, it reads like a fiction piece.
Fikret Pajalic (11:05):
It reads like a fiction piece, but it's actually
that particular memoir piecewhich was nearly 6,000 words, I
think, and for such a long pieceto be published in the engine,
that's like a lot of pages.
Yeah, they dedicated it.
Amra Pajalic (11:31):
So yeah, I'm very proud of that one, because the
only memoir piece I think I'vewritten.
Fikret Pajalic (11:33):
Actually, there was something in Big Issue,
which was 700, 800 words, thatwas published as well, but don't
ask me what it was, I can'tremember, but this is the thing
about short story publicationand short story opportunities.
Amra Pajalic (11:47):
It's building those networks.
And also, what I always comeback to is when you put things
out there, you don't know what'sgoing to come back, who's going
to read it, who's going toconnect with it, what, what
reaction you're going to get.
Um, did you ever have a anotherreaction that like with someone
contacted you?
That was surprising.
Fikret Pajalic (12:03):
I can't think of .
Amra Pajalic (12:04):
Maybe it's been a while since it's published um,
so you had your short storycollection published by a very
prestigious micro-press calledPishukan Press that is run by
someone, so could you talk aboutthe process of collaboration
for the cover and thepublication process.
Fikret Pajalic (12:26):
So, as you know, I've been trying to get short
stories published for a whileand keep getting them back.
It's a hard sell for publishersshort story collections, yeah,
and you know they like thestories.
But they say, oh, I love thisstory, I can expand on it and
blah, blah, blah.
So.
But I really wanted short storycollection published and then I
(12:47):
, you know I was disappointed,got discouraged, didn't think
about it for a few years.
Then you started yourpublishing house and it was a
while before we came to thatkind of idea.
I was practicing, I was likegetting all my books that were
like that too Kind of gettingexperienced in publishing
(13:12):
wherever it's called area, and Ithink it took me a while to see
your point of view, but it'stime because it's not going to
get published somewhere else andyeah, so I'll let you do it.
We've got some good reviews anda few famous Melbourne authors
(13:38):
yeah, so we've got endorsementsfrom.
Lee Kaufman from Lee Kaufmanwhich I was very happy about.
When she said yes, I was sohappy yeah, we've got some
beautiful endorsements.
Amra Pajalic (13:51):
yeah, so that was really, really I was so happy.
Yeah, we've got some beautifulendorsements.
I don't know, a spoon, I think.
Yeah, so that was really,really great.
And also, like you had a visionfor the cover in terms of
complications.
Do you want to talk about that,because we worked on that quite
a bit.
Fikret Pajalic (14:05):
Yeah, so that's, I'm probably going to be
spoiled if I talk too much.
Well, that's okay, becausethere's to be spoiled if I talk
too much.
That's okay Because there's ashort story.
Complication in this collectionand it kind of revolves around
old-fashioned wristwatches andthey all have complications in
(14:29):
their mechanisms, like if theyshow time, that's one
complication, if they showseconds, that's another
complication, and there can bemany, many different
complications.
Those little mechanisms arereferred to in watchbuilding
industry, so some of them theycan show, I don't know, moon
(14:53):
faces or something like that.
That's like really intricatecomplication.
So, and our lives are basicallyfull of complications.
Amra Pajalic (15:04):
Yes.
Fikret Pajalic (15:05):
So, and I think the whole book when it's read.
It's basically you read a story, then another story and you get
to the end.
It's like one complicationafter the other.
Amra Pajalic (15:21):
What would you say are some of the themes that you
deal with?
Fikret Pajalic (15:24):
So it's mostly, you know, australia, western
suburbs refugees, bosnians,burkina's refugees, racism
towards refugees yeah, that's abig one Towards different
cultures and religions andpeople with different names,
(15:45):
like mine that are hard topronounce, and that sort of
stuff.
But also there are a lot ofanimals.
In every story there's ananimal dogs, some cats, mostly
dogs, even though I never had adog, but, yeah, cats.
So there's kind of a themegoing through all stories and
(16:09):
there are motif and symbolism,yeah, so, yeah, that's basically
.
They're all kind of based on myexperience Maybe not all, but
some of them are based on theexperiences of people that I
know or knew and they told methe story Because we share the
(16:30):
history in terms of kind of wewent through war, came as
refugees, but they havedifferent stories and somebody
maybe told me a story.
This is what happened to mybrother when he was in Bosnia
during the war.
Or this is what happened to mysister when she arrived to
Australia.
There was one story with asingle mother and two kids who
(16:52):
arrived from Bosnia to Australianot knowing what happened to
her husband, and so I took thatlittle thread and made it like a
long, long story, developed itfurther without you know.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (17:11):
So, using the inspiration of all these things
that you've heard, people youknew, did it happen to?
Fikret Pajalic (17:16):
me, or it happened to the community I come
from.
Amra Pajalic (17:20):
That's the thing, isn't it?
It's all like we collectstories, especially when we're
writers.
We're just constantly havingconversations and collecting
these stories, and they findtheir way.
Fikret Pajalic (17:29):
Yeah, yeah, we weave them in.
They kind of stay in your headand then, oh, your car, I can
use that.
Amra Pajalic (17:35):
An actual story that you're talking about.
Flock, flock, yes, yeah, it'sreally quite beautiful, because
it's a single mother who's aboutto be evicted.
Fikret Pajalic (17:45):
Evicted yeah.
Amra Pajalic (17:46):
And it's about this hardship.
Fikret Pajalic (17:47):
So all that really happened.
Amra Pajalic (17:49):
Yeah.
Fikret Pajalic (17:50):
But then I kind of.
Amra Pajalic (17:51):
It's also about hope in hopeless situations and
people being good, and gettinghelp from unexpected places.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, and that'sthe thing.
Even though your story is, youknow, they have this thread of
sadness and this thread ofreality.
There is this sense of hope andthis sense of joy and this
(18:13):
sense of joy and connection thatpeople find in unexpected
places.
Fikret Pajalic (18:19):
I think on your website you have trigger
warnings because some storiesare very, very confronting and I
got the feedback where peopleread some stories and they feel
like they're being punched.
Amra Pajalic (18:35):
But we both write dark, and so for us we're like
well, this is just life and thisis what we write about um, but
then we sort of they're not alllike that, but there are a few
of them that are quite yeah, andthat's what I do now with um.
A lot of my writing, especiallythe war books that I'm about to
release, I have um contentwarnings where I'm like there's
some people who want to knowabout it.
I don't want to put it in thebook, and we didn't do that with
(18:57):
your book.
We didn't want it in the bookbecause it can be seen as
spoilers and we don't want tospoil it for people.
But, um, if there are peoplewho need to sort of be aware of
certain things, then we've got aqr code and it takes them to a
page where it's got um contentwarnings and you know that way
you've got that heads up.
(19:17):
So we're just sort of trying tonavigate this, because we also
use a lot of real language and alot of um.
You know western suburbs,that's how we talk.
Um, you know that some peoplefind that confrontational.
Now you might have a furthershort story collection in the
works.
I don't know about that.
You don't know about that.
(19:37):
There are more stories becauseyou have written over 50 short
stories.
Fikret Pajalic (19:44):
No, I've written more.
Over 50 have been published.
Amra Pajalic (19:47):
Over 50 every month, so we theoretically could
have another, like another, twocollections worth Theoretically
, yes, so I just need to slowlywork on him and get this sorted,
because this is something thatI want to do.
This is kind of my life's work.
Now, in another area of yourlife, you did a Master's in Arts
(20:08):
Administration and you are nowan arts officer delivering
exhibitions in visual arts inarts councils.
So what advice do you have fornew artists in this area?
Fikret Pajalic (20:21):
so I've worked with a lot of established
artists and emerging artists andit's kind of established
artists they're quite good.
They've been like Lucas Kasper,we both know they know the
process.
And then I guess the mainadvice I have I don't know if
(20:42):
it's even advice, but foremerging artists, like, don't be
precious if somebody approachesyou or you were shortlisted.
If somebody approaches you oryou were shortlisted to be
exhibited by a council here inMelbourne, just take it and work
(21:04):
with the arts officer.
Yes, and try to adjust as muchas you can to their vision,
because it's hard to you know tohave an exhibition, yeah.
And you know, don't be pressured.
So I've seen some of theyounger artists that are like
that's not my vision, I can't.
(21:24):
You know they get threethousand dollars fee, for
example, to be exhibited, butthey're demanding or they're
just kind of not flexibleBecause councils basically they
will never.
Most of them, you know they'renot going to put something on
their walls in the gallerythat's stupid or controversial
(21:48):
so they won't get complaints.
So you know it's your firstexhibition and you're getting
some exposure, so just don't betoo precious about your art.
Amra Pajalic (22:00):
Yes, it's that issue of artists wanting to have
a vision and wanting to pushthe boundaries and seeing this
as perhaps censorship, but it'salso like you have to understand
who is funding this.
Who is paying you for this?
Fikret Pajalic (22:17):
There's always time for that, later with your
next exhibition or later whenyou establish yourself.
Then you can you know, inprivate galleries they can put
whatever they want basically.
So that can be their aim,further than the track.
But to get to that point youneed to, you know, establish,
(22:38):
you need to get exhibited withlocal council yes, that sort of
stuff.
Amra Pajalic (22:42):
So and I guess, going back to talking about the
short stories that you hadpublished and working with
editors, it's about um,developing your, about having
those opportunities and aboutlearning from it and building
your skill level.
Fikret Pajalic (22:57):
It's very similar where you kind of you
trust the editor or, in theircase they trust the arts officer
.
It's nurturing them in a way toget that first exhibition done.
Amra Pajalic (23:19):
And most of them are fine, they accept all of us.
Every now and then you get aperson illusions of grandeur,
it's like oh no.
The problem is sometimes whenthings happen too early and you
don't quite know about the world, you don't realise
opportunities, like I rememberwhen I got published with my
debut novel and I was at aconference called Reading
(23:42):
Matters Conference and I'venever been to that conference.
I didn't know what it was, Ididn't realise what a big deal
that was until years later,where I was like, oh my God,
that was a really big deal.
My publisher, text Publishingat the time, you know, got me on
a panel but I did not have anyidea what that was.
And that's sometimes the issueyou don't realise until
(24:03):
afterwards where you're like oh,that was an amazing opportunity
that I don't know I'll haveagain.
So any last words on the powerof arts for wellbeing and joy.
Fikret Pajalic (24:12):
Oh, I don't know .
I guess if you're a writer,keep writing, if that helps you
deal with your mental issues, ifyou have any, then we all have
some Similar with visual arts.
Amra Pajalic (24:35):
Yeah, what was the question?
Last words on the power of artsfor wellbeing and joy, because
you were talking about that.
You started writing because ofcounselling?
Fikret Pajalic (24:43):
yeah, but for me , it was a bit difficult was it
ultimately cathartic did it help?
I don't know.
Yeah, maybe, maybe you're beingcautious here in terms of our
health.
Yes, I got hurt again, yeah,when I was, you know, putting it
(25:05):
on paper, so you get thatsecondary trauma.
Yeah, yeah, eventually it getsbetter and, like, all depends on
the person I live, you know.
So I don't know, probably notthe best person to give any.
Yeah, eventually it gets better.
It all depends on the person.
I don't know.
I'm probably not the bestperson to give any mental health
advice, because I went throughanxiety and depression and every
now and then I still.
(25:25):
I might have a really badmorning but great afternoon.
It's just kind of up and downor good month and then next
month it's pretty crappy.
Amra Pajalic (25:38):
I guess, since we're talking about it, this is
the residue of being a refugee.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout your experiences as a
refugee in Germany, just to giveeveryone some time?
Fikret Pajalic (25:48):
Austria sorry, I might have confused those two.
I might confuse those two.
Well, I didn't have any statusthere because I was basically
kind of illegal.
In a way it was all in limbobecause Western Europe kind of
didn't experience refugee wavefor a while.
There was almost this thingwhere it's like like how can a
(26:14):
white person be a refugee?
Normally people from my countrywould go to germany and austria
and switzerland to work, youknow, for economic reasons, and
then waves of people came withnothing and it was confronting,
for those societies to see that.
And also I remember I met anEnglishman in Australia who came
(26:38):
as a tourist to do some skiingor whatever.
Because I was in a little townhigh in the Alps, and then he
said something along the line Ican't comprehend that this is
happening to white people.
Amra Pajalic (26:55):
That's what he actually said.
Fikret Pajalic (26:56):
I thought we were.
You know the Western society inEurope.
Yes, that's never going tohappen again, especially after
the Second World War.
What happened to Jewish people?
You know, six million Jews werein the Holocaust and all that
and like, oh, it's happeningagain to another group of white
people can you contextualize thewar?
Amra Pajalic (27:19):
so we're talking about yugoslavia, the breakup of
yugoslavia and the fact thatyou know bosnians um were then
independent and you know therewas a conflict as a result of
that.
So, just so, we have thatcontext, um.
So and you had some reallyterrible things happen when you
were in Austria in terms of thatlimbo and the effects of that.
(27:39):
All right, well, thank you somuch for being my first, it's
hard for me to think about it.
It's hard, but I reallyappreciate you.
Those questions weren't on thelist.
They weren't on the list.
I sort of took the thread.
I wasn't really prepared, no.
So I really appreciate youtalking about that and sharing
(28:01):
that.
Fikret Pajalic (28:02):
So thank you so much, maybe in my next interview
.
Amra Pajalic (28:05):
Maybe for your next short story collection wink
, wink.
So thank you so much for beingmy guinea pig, being the first
person I've interviewed, forhelping me set up the studio.
He has helped me so much interms of all my beautiful
armchairs and all my equipment,and thank you, I hope, to those
of you who might be watching andlistening to this.
(28:27):
Thank you for joining me forthis episode of Amra's Armchair
Anecdotes.
Bye-bye.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories and inspiration From my
(28:47):
armchair to yours.
Remember, every story beginswith a single word.
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