November 10, 2025 • 51 mins
Amra sits down with Dr Katherine Firth to unpack how the Three Minute Thesis turns complex research into a clear, human story and why that skill changes academic careers. Amra shares the path from department heat to university win to Asia–Pacific submission, including the full 3MT performance.
• what 3MT is and why it matters
• how to build a strong opening, middle and closing
• cutting jargon and choosing clean language
• using one slide as a memory anchor
• rehearsing in the real venue and managing nerves
• when to memorise versus use cue cards
• applying feedback between heats to improve
• career value for academia, industry and media
• building community, confidence and momentum
• ethical storytelling for sensitive research topics
Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Katherine Firth about the three-minute thesis competition. I will now be including my three-minute thesis application, and so you'll be able to listen to it. This is the one that went to the Asia Pacific heat, and I will also include a link to the initial La Trobe heat, which is the one that I won.
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Amra Pajalic (00:00):
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Paelich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how to guide atamrait.com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
So welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
In today's episode, I'm talkingto Dr.
Catherine First.
She's been developing researchwriters for over 15 years.
(00:43):
Currently, she's a seniorlecturer in the research
education and development teamat La Trome University and head
of the Lisa Belair House.
Is that how I say that?
Belair House at the Universityof Melbourne, co-founder of the
award-winning thesis boot campprogram.
She maintains a writing blog,Research Degree Insiders.
(01:04):
And she's co-author of thebooks How to Fix Your Academic
Writing Trouble, Your PhDSurvival Guide, and Level Up
Your Essays.
And her most recent book isWriting Well and Being Well for
Your PhD and Beyond.
Welcome, Catherine.
Katherine Firth (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me today, Amra.
Amra Pajalic (01:22):
Thank you.
Now I'm uh talking to you in myacademic life and in my
academic journey.
So I'm just going to read alittle bit of my academic uh
introduction and bio.
So I'm an award-winning author,educator, but I'm also a PhD
researcher of Bosnian heritage,exploring representations of the
(01:43):
Bosnian genocide in fiction.
I'm blending storytelling withhistorical analysis to confront
dehumanization and preserve of acultural memory.
My novel, Time Kneels BetweenMountains, and my accompanying
essay collection explores thelegacy of the surveillance of
genocide.
And I'm here because I wasawarded a first prize in the La
(02:04):
Trode University three-minutethesis competition.
And it was a fiercecompetition.
There were 10 amazingcompetitors.
And I won a 4,000 prize to helpmy further my academic journey,
which I'm very excited about.
So we're here to talk about thethree-minute thesis program and
(02:25):
what it is and what it does.
Get your perspective as someonewho supports students in that
journey.
I just want to get myperspective as someone who has
stumbled into it as a studentand won this amazing prize and
yeah, to sort of contextualizethat.
So first of all, I thought, canyou um tell us what is the
(02:47):
three-minute thesis competition?
Katherine Firth (02:50):
Thank you, Amra.
And before I do, to saycongratulations again.
Well done.
You were absolutely like it wassuch a fierce competition.
There was real, there was real,really uh complex debates about
who would win.
So to have um to have achievedthat is a really great outcome.
(03:13):
Um and also it's lovely to getto talk to each other again as
we're going to um kind ofdescribe through this the
process of preparing for theuniversity finals was quite
intensive.
We spent quite a lot of timetogether.
So it's really great to catchup just this a little bit later
and uh see how it's all goingand uh reflect on what was a
really intense um experience, Ithink, for everybody involved.
(03:35):
Certainly it was for me.
Um I personally have beeninvolved in supporting
three-minute thesis uhpreparation for about 15 years
now.
Um, the and the the wholeprogram has been going on for a
lot longer than that.
Um so the three-minute thesiswas invented by the University
(03:55):
of Queensland uh nearly twodecades ago.
Um, it's become uh first anational and now an
international uh competition uhculminating uh in the Asia
Pacific finals, which have onlyjust taken place.
Um the competition issimultaneously extraordinarily
(04:16):
simple and incrediblychallenging.
The challenge is for PhDcandidates, so people in their
second or later year of theirPhD, to explain their research
in three minutes or less.
PhDs are 80 or more thousandwords, they take three or four
(04:38):
years full-time study to do.
They're done by people whoalready have school,
undergraduate, master's, andquite a bit of uh, you know,
high degree by research, PhDlevel research already in the
bag.
And at that moment, we're like,so can you just like do that
(04:58):
really quickly and do that in away that somebody who's not in
your discipline, not studyingwhat you're studying, not an
expert in that way, can follow.
So we have um at the finals atLa Trobe, for example, those 10
candidates, they came frombiomedicine.
We had a person who was doing athing about like how people in
(05:20):
farms work out what flies andother insects are eating stuff.
We had a person who was lookingat like how dieting was
impacting male mice' brainpower.
We had a person who was tryingto um help midwives uh on
placement be more effective.
(05:41):
Like everything was beingcovered.
And then we had you, Amara, andyou were telling your story,
um, both of your um about yournovel, Time Kneels Between
Mountains, uh, and uh thecontext and uh wider research
you were doing around how thatsits uh in in literature.
(06:02):
So, you know, creative writing,uh literary studies, recent
history.
Um so all these different kindsof things are happening, and
people have to be able tounderstand them wherever they
come from.
Amra Pajalic (06:14):
Yeah.
Well, I I kind of stumbled intoit because I had to do my
presentation um to, you know,like come in and to the
department.
And then they were like, okay,you know, we're asking for
people to enter the three-minutecompetition at the department
level.
Um, and because I'm fine, I wasfinally at a point where I
(06:34):
could see my thesis, I actuallyhad a a bit of clarity about
what was going on with itbecause that's for a long time I
felt like wading through mud,where it's like, what am I
trying to do here?
What am I trying to write?
I just entered it because Ithought, oh, this is a good
academic credit.
Um, because I'm thinking aboutyou know my future academic
journey and trying to um, youknow, get into the university
(06:58):
sector.
And I was like, oh, this is agreat opportunity just for an
academic credit, just you know,to speak at the department.
And there were some prizeswhere there was like, you know,
$500 um first prize and youknow, 300 and 200, I think.
Um and so I was just thought,oh, that's great.
That's that's I didn't evenknow that there was more after
(07:21):
that.
So when I did the actual, youknow, so I practiced, I
rehearsed, I thought, oh, thisis good as a teacher, that I can
talk to my high school studentsthat I teach about oral
presentations and preparingthem.
I'm always telling them cuecards and you know, practice and
all of this.
So I thought, okay, this isgood, you know, gave me that
(07:41):
extra reason to do it.
So um I did that presentationand then they were like, oh,
you've won.
And then they're like, and nowdo you wish to represent the
department in the next heat?
And I'm like, oh, there's a anext heat.
Katherine Firth (07:58):
And there is, there are so many rounds because
there was there's thedepartment.
So at Lutrobe, as in mostuniversities, there's like
schools and departments do them,and then it goes up to the
university finals, and then itgoes on to the Asia Pacific
semifinals, uh, all of which yougot into.
(08:18):
Uh, and then the finals, um,yeah, so it's it's like it's
layers and layers and layers.
Amazing.
Amra Pajalic (08:25):
It is, and then also I didn't realize what a big
deal it was.
Um, because you know, when whenI got the um department one and
then was in touch with um withAnthony, who was who what what
uh can you explain Anthony'sposition?
Katherine Firth (08:42):
Oh, he's the director of graduate research.
So every department has um anacademic who helps uh coordinate
all graduate research sort oftraining, ethics, admin, uh
works with all the doctoralsupervisors, uh is a first port
of call for um students who needto go above their supervisor
(09:06):
for whatever reason, uh, andinterfaces with the central uh
graduate services for thingslike policy changes and um and
things like please can you findme a whole group of people to do
three-minute thesis because uhthat's a really important part
of what they do.
Amra Pajalic (09:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so he was like, okay, nowyou're going to do one-on-one
coaching.
And so that's where you camein, where um I met you.
And so we spent like an intensehour um where I was reading my
speech to you and going throughit line by line.
Um, and we were tightening andlooking at, in a sense, um, what
(09:43):
was interesting for me waslooking for codes for how to
sort of um tell what the thestory of my thesis, but how to
use coded language.
So I remember we were talkingabout, you know, this romance
that I had, and you're likeRomeo and Juliet romance.
And as soon as we use thatcode, we know that it's a boomed
romance in a sense.
Katherine Firth (10:04):
Yeah, because there was a stage where I was
like, did they get together andlive happily ever after in the
end?
And you're like, no, no, that'snot my story.
Amra Pajalic (10:14):
Yeah.
And so it was reallyfascinating because um, you
know, for me to write that firstspeech, I had to go online and
I found like an outline um thatI could use to write the
structure.
And then I was editing and and,you know, really trying to get
it down.
Um, and then it was justinteresting how we really then
went into it further, word byword, um, to really kind of
(10:38):
strengthen every bit of it.
Um, and then also there was alittle bit of you know
rehearsing with you, um, and yougiving me pointers.
And the other thing that wasimportant and I sort of didn't
realize was um the slide and theslide.
So you only get one staticslide that you can have as your
(11:02):
background.
Um, so that was another reallyimportant thing that you had to
think about and how how willthat you know connect with the
audience.
Katherine Firth (11:11):
Um what was actually really interesting is
that the way that we workedtogether, every person I worked
with, what they needed wastotally different.
So I had some people where umwhat was what they kind of
really needed was more of likethe emotional heart of the
story.
Or I had other people where thethings that weren't clear were
(11:35):
really obvious things.
I was like, you've used a wholeload of uh acronyms there.
I don't know what they mean, noone else will know what they
mean.
Uh, with some of the sciencepeople.
Um I had a lot of time with umwith Lockie, who was doing the
one about the the flies andother uh agricultural insects,
(11:55):
getting him to explain it to me,and then me trying to explain
it back to him.
And he was like, no.
And we had to go around a fewtimes, and then he was like a
data and I was like, okay, sothat's the version that people
who are non-experts will be ableto understand.
Because he was turning all ofthese insects into some kind of
DNA soup and then doing maths toit.
(12:17):
And I was like, I really wasstruggling to understand that.
But in the end, we got to apoint where I can now tell you
that he was putting insects intoa DNA soup and then doing maths
with it, and that will tell youwhether or not you've got lots
of kinds of insects eating yourfruit and vegetable.
Um, so some of the people, thatwas what they needed.
You, because you're a writer,were really already ready to do
(12:41):
that kind of line edit.
But that's the thing that onlycreative writers already know
how to do.
So it was also reallyinteresting that we worked, the
way we worked together was muchmore the way I work um as a
writer myself, but that sort ofreally line level, uh, whereas
other people needed somethingdifferent.
And so we did somethingdifferent.
Amra Pajalic (13:01):
Yeah.
So what what I'm hearing, in asense, like that's the challenge
because you're doing that toyour department first.
They understand what you'retalking about.
Um, and you know, you you don'trealize, in a sense, if you
have not translated it enoughfor the layperson, for someone
who knows nothing about yourresearch, and you have got these
(13:24):
three minutes where you have totell them that.
Katherine Firth (13:28):
Absolutely, that they understand it and also
that they've already bought inthat you're doing it.
We have a cancer researchcenter.
Everybody in the cancerresearch center absolutely
believes that killing cancer isthe most important thing.
They've all already given theirlives to it.
Um, and so that was that wasn'ta hard sell.
That's also not usually a hardsell.
(13:48):
Most people uh agree thatthat's really important.
Whereas we have other kinds ofum projects where people had to
explain.
Actually, my research might notsound like it's very
interesting, might not soundlike it's really relevant, might
not sound like it's important,but actually it is.
And here's how um, even thoughyou've never thought about it
before, it's actually reallyrelevant to you.
Amra Pajalic (14:11):
Yeah.
So what would you, in terms ofpeople who like me, stumbled
into it and were like, okay, I'mjust gonna do it for my
department as you know, theacademic credit, how would you
um advise them to sort of startthe process?
Like for me, it was finding thestructure for um how to write
(14:32):
the the thesis and sort ofputting it together based on
that.
What other tips do you have?
Katherine Firth (14:39):
The main thing that is um is important is
really to understand why itmatters to you.
Human beings really respond toother humans.
Um, they really respond to yourauthenticity, to your feelings,
to your passion.
Uh and so if you've worked outwhat really why you got into it
(15:00):
or remember why you got into itperhaps years and years ago, um,
then that can really help youuh connect to the kind of you
know electric third rail, thekind of heart of the story.
Um and that then um I'll go along way listening to people who
I have no idea what you'retalking about, but I know you
care.
And that really is somethingthat can bring audiences with
(15:23):
them.
Um when we talk about when werun the workshops, so there were
workshops about this uh that werun to support that.
We've got an online module thatkind of gives advice about it.
So we we sort of also give sometechnical advice around it.
Um, and we definitely uhrecommend that people spend time
(15:43):
to tell to identify what theirstory is, give some kind of
beginning, some kind of middle,some kind of end, um, and to
start and end with somethingthat's really strong.
One of the candidates for thefinals didn't make a time to see
me one-on-one.
And it was, I was chatting withmy colleagues later, and they
(16:04):
were like, was that the personwho didn't come?
Because they could guess.
And what was really obviousabout it was that his beginning
and his end were not as strongas the people who'd really
rehearsed.
Start with a joke, start with alike unbelievably shocking and
um surprising or you know,enormous uh fact.
(16:27):
Start with how it relates toyou, start with why it matters,
those kinds of things.
People want, are really keen tocome along if you'll just give
them a way in.
So really give them a strongway in and then really kind of
return to that uh in theconclusion so they can remember
it uh when you've walked off thestage, because then they can
(16:49):
remember what it was that yousaid.
So when they're voting for you,they're like, oh yes, that one,
that was really strong.
That really um that was reallysignificant for me.
Amra Pajalic (16:59):
So there's also, I'm sure every university will
sort of have some of the thingsthat you were talking about in
terms of the modules, in termsof opportunities for um to talk
to people.
So, you know, getting thoseopportunities, taking advantage
of them uh is something thatwe're really sort of saying is
is pivotal.
Yeah.
Katherine Firth (17:18):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's like starting, you know,you don't have to start with a
blank page, you don't have to doit on your own.
It's been going forever now.
You can also jump online.
Um, UQ has really great uhresources, has videos of
previous winners, had a wholerange of things.
Most universities will alsohave that.
(17:39):
So you're not starting withlike, what do I even do?
You can go and listen to awhole load of people whose work
sort of looks a bit like yoursand go, oh, that's how they've
tackled it.
I could do something similar.
Amra Pajalic (17:50):
Yeah.
Well, I was very silly and Ididn't do any of that.
Katherine Firth (17:54):
So I was completely also break the rules,
do whatever, have a go, becauseas you can see, even just
stumbling into it, it's easyenough.
The idea of it, I've just gotto explain it in three minutes.
I mean, it was challenging, butit also wasn't um impossible.
Amra Pajalic (18:15):
No, no, I think uh I mean the advantage for me, as
you said, is that I'm a writer,and so that creative background
and the writing part held me ingood stead.
And then also I've had a lot ofexperience with public
speaking.
So I came in with those twostrengths, but I did um really
find the opportunity to get thecoaching from you uh and then
(18:36):
later with Anthony for the finaland that refining um really,
you know, was invaluable, reallymade a difference.
I just also wanted to talkabout in terms of the um, you
know, we had the departmentheat, so that was just in a room
in the university with, youknow, people who showed up.
But um, when we had the actuallecturer date, like that was fun
(19:03):
because we had um a rehearsalbeforehand in the actual space
to see the auditorium.
And then on the day there waslive streaming and recording and
you as the MC.
So yeah, I thought I justwanted you to contextualize that
also.
Katherine Firth (19:23):
Absolutely.
So the three-minute thesis isone of our flagship uh whole of
university research uhdevelopment uh events.
Um and so, and it's been alittle bit pre-COVID, it was
massive, it was bigger thanBenho.
There's no way you wouldn'thave known about it.
It's gone a bit quieter, youknow, it all went online for a
few years, and then we were sortof bringing it back.
(19:44):
Uh and this year, I was like,no, we're going all out.
We got good budget for it.
Uh, so the graduate researchschool really kind of uh
invested in it.
We searched reams of differentrooms at La Trobe and settled on
the Agoras Theatre, uh, thecinema, rather.
So for people who don't know,uh La Trobe University has had
(20:06):
uh a whole theatre and a wholeum sort of art cinema.
Um, people, I was just talkingto somebody who I was at a
leadership course with the otherday, who was like, yeah,
actually, I got into film.
He's now had a you know globalstreaming, film, television um
career because I got into filmgoing to the ag cinema for five
(20:29):
bucks uh back in the 90s.
So like these really beautifulstories, which people often tell
me about their connection tothis space.
So, but it's a full cinema.
Huge, loads of chairs,beautiful space right in the
center uh of campus.
We did a full dress rehearsalbecause I was like, nobody, I
(20:50):
used to do, I used to dostudent-like productions.
So I was like, you need toknow, will my shoes make weird
sounds on the floor?
How, if I wear these, thisoutfit, how will the microphone
like clip to my lapel?
Because everybody has worn theshirt that like got pulled off
by the microphone or that madeweird sort of pushy noises as
(21:12):
you were trying to present.
What does it feel like topresent to this space?
But we were doing it withnobody in the audience.
And on the day, there were like80 people in the audience.
There were, I think, threedifferent video cameras, there
was a photographer or two, therewere two photographers, in
fact.
So it was like it was biggerthan Ben Her.
(21:33):
Um, and for most people, um,especially either the biggest
thing that they'd done like thatin a very long time.
Um, and for some people, theonly time they'd ever stood up
in what was basically atelevision audience, a light
television audience, um,broadcasting right across the
state.
La Trobe has uh campuses rightacross Victoria and across the
(21:58):
world.
We had um audience from allover the globe.
So it was a really, reallyfull-scale event.
Um and it's yeah, and then andthen we take video from that
event, and that video goes offuh to the finals, which are all
up on the YouTube website.
Um, yeah, so it'd be it's justit's a really big, really
(22:19):
full-scale uh experience withcatering afterwards, um, and is
one of the things that we reallysee as one of the few ways that
we bring people togetherphysically um and synchronously
uh across the trope.
Amra Pajalic (22:32):
Yeah, I mean, I was so relieved I was there for
the dress rehearsal and I Ireally had that chance to
prepare.
And also we had a conversationwhere um my topic is quite dark
and you know it's aboutgenocide, and I was like, put me
on last because I bring themood down.
And so I think that worked verywell.
Katherine Firth (22:53):
Um, but yeah, absolutely.
There was an original one wherewe had yours and then the next
person's story had lots of jokesin it, and it was not good.
Amra Pajalic (23:03):
Yeah, no, um, yeah, so it was yeah, so that
that's the other thing that yousort of need to take into
account, those transitions interms of mood and and how to,
because yeah, some of thespeakers were um, everyone was
so charismatic.
I was completely shocked that Iwon.
And the other thing um that Iwanted to talk about is I could
not memorize my speech to savemy life.
(23:26):
And I think, especially being awriter, I'm very tied to like
every single word having to beexactly perfect to the way that
I wrote it down.
And so for me, trying toactually memorize the whole
thing and go in without anythingwas not something I could do.
Um, but so many participantsdid um just get up there and did
(23:51):
not have any um aids.
And so we had that conversationwhere I was like, can I have my
cue cards?
So I just thought, um, yeah, ifyou could sort of flag that and
talk that through a bit.
Katherine Firth (24:02):
Absolutely.
So the rules say you can haveuh memory aids, so cue cards,
your full script, uh, and thoseare absolutely permissible.
Um, we usually recommend thatyou don't because it's quite
difficult if you're going to,you know, speak up, speak out,
project to the audience, um, youknow, make eye contact if you
(24:23):
want to gesture, if you're likeme, um, and you make lots of
hand gestures, uh, the chancesthat I would throw my cue cards
um is um I used to do debatingat school and absolutely
Catherine of the debate team, mycue cards, the number of times
I was like, oh no, they havegone flying, uh was quite
common.
Uh so there's some of that kindof stuff where we're like,
(24:45):
look, if you can memorize it,there's a lot of benefit to it.
Um also for most people's talk,the big, your big points are
much more important uh than anyof the details about how every
particular word kind ofinterlocks with every other
word.
But I think that kind of goesback to both the sensitivity of
(25:07):
your topic and the way that wewere workshopping your talk from
the beginning.
You know, that we were reallyinterested in the words and and
the kind of exact pacing of theway you talked about what you
did.
So for you to wing it wouldhave been much harder than
(25:28):
somebody else who you know hadtheir talking points, but if
they were a little bit fudgy inhow they got from A to B, it was
probably not going to be quiteas as significant.
Um yeah.
So you can have a memory aid,um, but we often recommend that
you at least try to go without.
Amra Pajalic (25:45):
Yeah, so I um just wanted to talk through the
technical aspects of my memoryaids.
Um so I did my speech in Word18 font, nice and big, because I
can't read things without myglasses, so they had to be nice
and big.
I printed off um a few cardsabout this size, um, so on the
(26:06):
10 by 10 centimetres.
And then I did staple them, Inumbered them and I stapled them
so that I would not lose theorder and they would not fall
out of my hands because that'ssomething, yes, I was nervous
about.
And this is the advantage ofbeing a high school teacher and
seeing students presenting andsome of the pitfalls that they
(26:26):
had.
So afterwards of speaking tothe judges and I I watched my
speech and I actually did notlook at them that much.
I was able to maintain eyecontact significantly.
I had actually um rote learnedquite a bit of it, but I just
could not um, you know, trustmyself not to have that exact
(26:49):
order and to have that exactflow.
And also, yes, the language wasvery important in terms of the
words that I used.
So for me, that was the bestdecision, and I managed to win
with that.
So um I guess that's one thingto think about in terms of what
your speech is like.
Is it something where you cantell the story and capture the
(27:12):
general story of it?
And there were also people whowere using their um slide as the
memory aid, where they wereactually using it to tell the
story of their thesis, um, andthey were able to do that.
So, you know, I guess the thepoint to be made is there is no
one way of doing it.
Each thesis and each topic andeach um discipline will inform
(27:37):
the way that you might want todo it.
But I just want to make otherslike me feel okay about the fact
that yes, you might need uh amemory aid.
And then um we recorded againum for the Asia Pacific uh
final.
So I worked with Anthony onthat draft also, and I recorded
(28:00):
that on my phone, and I have anapp that is um an auto cue app.
And so I was able to revisewith him again, uh, put it on
the app and record myself on myphone and do another version
that was tweaked again for thefinal.
Um, and most of that was stillpretty much the same, but there
(28:22):
were some changes.
But because it was an autoqueue and I re-recorded it, um,
and so that's the other thingthat you know it might change
each time.
If you are progressing, you dohave that opportunity to refine,
to improve.
Katherine Firth (28:38):
And you really should.
Um, people who do the samething, the thing that will win
at your school heat, um,everybody else is revising and
improving it.
So you absolutely want uh tokeep going uh to improve it for
these bigger and biggeraudiences.
It occurs to me that as youwere talking, that one of the
big differences is that uhscience researchers, when they
(29:02):
go to conferences, tend to giveconference papers where they
talk to their slides.
So actually the big points areup on the slide and then they
sort of talk to them.
Whereas when I go toconferences, I have a full
script and have always had afull script.
That's just normal in mydiscipline.
And people say, oh gosh, it'sreally boring when people read
stuff out.
And I'm like, no, it's not,because we're good at it.
(29:24):
Uh, you know, we really do, wepresent with energy, we present
with, you know, real passion,but we know that the words are
really the right words becausethat's how we communicate our
research.
So I think that's the otherthing is that if you're from a
discipline where presenting withpassion from a full script is a
(29:45):
thing you're really good at,you may find that that's a
really great strategy forsomething like 3MT.
Amra Pajalic (29:52):
Yeah, and I think like with writing, with all of
my stuff, you know, even all thewriting things, it is it is
very much because it is aboutthe words.
And I I have now presented at afew conferences.
And, you know, I do have theslides of some quotes, some key
quotes or key images.
And you mark those in yourspeech so you know to click
(30:14):
next.
But it is, it is very much theway that it is structured and it
is the way reading it.
I also want to talk about this.
Is what I've been reallyinterested in, because I I I
knew generally, like I don'treally know much about academia.
I'm doing a PhD or I've beendoing it seven years part-time.
So I've been very disconnectedfrom uni life because it's a
(30:39):
part-time thing.
I work um day job.
And so I did it because I'mlike, I know that if I want to
get into academia, I needcredits, I need to have
connections with the university.
So that's why I entered it.
So I guess I just wanted toalso get your perspective in
terms of what are theopportunities that it affords?
(30:59):
What, what, um, you know, howdoes it help?
Katherine Firth (31:02):
So it helps in such a lot of different ways.
Um, in terms of uh specificallyum academic positions, look,
anytime you win anything, yay,that's a that's a little trophy
on your shelf.
So if you are entering it andyou do do well, that does make a
difference.
We often, though, really uhtalk about it in a whole range
(31:25):
uh of other ways that itconnects you to people.
So you go to your school uhheat, uh you talk about your
research in front of your peers,suddenly a whole load of people
who had no idea who you were,what you were doing, have heard
about your research.
Uh so that then when they bumpinto you in the graduate common
(31:46):
room, when they walk past you inthe corridor, instead of just
being like, hi, um, they can belike, Hi, AMRA, how's is the
book out yet?
How's it selling?
What's the what's going on?
You know, what's your nextproject?
Because they actually havesomething to talk to you about.
So it really builds uh what wecall intellectual climate, some
kind of you know, connectionsbetween researchers and builds
(32:08):
your profile within that uhsmaller um space.
We know that in uh conferences,lots of conferences now have
things like poster competitionsuh or panel discussions.
In those, having three to fiveminutes to kind of talk about
your research is really normal.
So for a lot of people, it'sreally helpful to get out there
(32:29):
and kind of talk about whatthey're doing to uh their
industry, to other researchersin their discipline across the
nation, across the world.
We know that industry partnersare not very interested in
reading 80,000 words ofanything, um, but we absolutely
know that they're often askingresearchers to come in, uh give
(32:52):
a really quick pitch orexplanation to potential
investors or to you know umparticipants or to clients or
customers or patients orwhatever the people might be.
And so the ability to walk inand go, here, you know nothing
about this, but I'm going totell it to you in a really
(33:13):
engaging way in about threeminutes is a really powerful
tool.
And we know it's a reallypowerful tool in the media.
Um, where one of the ways thatum researchers often find really
challenging is we'rediscovering this amazing stuff.
And it's really hard to explainto other people what we're
doing, where are people gettingtheir information from?
(33:35):
Podcasts, newspaper articles,little videos on YouTube or
Instagram.
The ability, therefore, to goon, do something really engaging
uh in that sort of short snaptype way is also something that
really helps people get theirstory out to the wider, the
wider public who might beinterested.
(33:56):
Yeah, so so many ways that it'suseful.
Amra Pajalic (33:59):
Yeah, well, I found for me, it really helped
me restructuring my thesisbecause using that structure to
develop the three minute, um, Irealized that one of my chapters
I had not addressed my argumentadequately.
And then also some of the codesthat we had developed, the the
shortcut codes, um, I was ableto use as my signposting and
(34:25):
sort of look at the flow of ofwhat I was writing.
Um, so it helped me with that,but it also um helped me in a
few other ways.
I because I've been um, youknow, part-time and I'm not on
campus as much, I haven't beenreally connected with a lot of
things in the university.
And so I've been actuallypaying attention more to emails.
(34:49):
I mean, I was always readingthem, but I wasn't like, oh,
this is something I should bedoing.
So I've started looking atother things to enter, other
opportunities in this time I'vegot before I submit, and those
doors are closed.
Um, but the other thing is Iwant to um I've written a book
of essays based on my research.
(35:09):
And so my plan is to use myprize money to apply for further
grants um to develop that intoa podcast, the historical
podcast, telling the story ofSteven Itza.
And so being able to say, Ireceived $4,000 from Latrobe
University for this prize, andI'm using this for my research
(35:33):
will hopefully make me astronger candidate for funding
and create more opportunities inthat way in terms of that
sharing of my research.
Um, and I remember having aconversation with someone, and
they're like, but what's thepoint of the podcast?
Are you going to make moneyfrom it?
And I'm like, no, probably not.
But this is the thing.
We we're researchers and we'rewriters and we're creative
(35:56):
people, and we come up withideas that we just want to
share.
We just want to get out there.
And so it's looking for thosedifferent ways and different
opportunities to share theseideas and share these things
that we've discovered that we'velearned for other people to
learn.
Katherine Firth (36:15):
I love the fact that this whole competition,
which is about making people'sresearch more accessible to
other people, um, even in areally short way, is going to
turn into something like apodcast series that, you know,
just really gives people theopportunity to understand these
(36:35):
really important, um nuanced,you know, you were, and you with
these codes that we were using,these really like jam-packed
full of meaning.
And we, you know, we rehearsed,is it a Romeo and Juliet
romance?
Is it a different kind so thatwe really were getting the story
right?
Um, that you're going to have achance to unpack that in the
(36:58):
way that I love to listen toreally discursive podcasts.
I hope people like that too,because this is definitely what
we're doing today.
Um, but like that we're goingto have that that you that that
accessibility is just buildingmore accessibility because
that's that's amazing.
Um, I love that.
Amra Pajalic (37:17):
That's the thing.
And I think what I got out ofthis is I just really wanted to
encourage more people who are inmy position where you're just
working solo on your thesis, onyour writing.
The only people you're engagingwith really on an ongoing basis
are your supervisors, andthey're the only ones that sort
of know everything that's goingon.
Um, and just you know, havingthat opportunity to because I
(37:41):
loved meeting the otherresearchers.
I loved sitting in theauditorium and hearing all these
other researchers speakingabout their um writing and their
ideas um and and what they haddiscovered with passion, are
connected with some of them onyou know, LinkedIn, on social
media.
And so that that opportunityfor connection um is really, you
(38:05):
know, key.
And just you never know.
Like one of the things thatI've I've discovered along the
way is some of my best ideashave come through just random
conversations with people, whereI'm I'm just talking about
something that is going on withme, and you know, suddenly
someone throws something intothe conversation and and you
(38:27):
know, my brain starts spinningon it.
Um, and and that's what theseopportunities are also.
It's that opportunity to sortof talk to people in in the same
position and see, you know,where could it take you?
Could it be anothercollaboration, could be a
sharing of ideas?
Um, so yeah, it's been it'sbeen really wonderful.
And I think confidence booster,which we were talking about
(38:49):
also, because um you're sort oflike, I think this is important
and I think this islife-changing, and just sort of
getting that confirmation andhearing from other people after
you know the three-minute thesisand and they hear um what
you're doing, seeing, you know,people's interest um just
(39:10):
confirms, like, yes.
And for me, if I had any doubtsabout making this podcast a
reality, uh, they have now veryfirmly been put to bed um
because it's like, no, this issomething that is important,
this research is important, andkeep moving forward towards that
goal.
So yeah, it's been it's been awonderful journey, I have to
(39:33):
say.
Katherine Firth (39:33):
Oh, that that's that's precisely what we're
hoping uh happens for everybodyat every stage of the
competition.
I mean, obviously you've hadthis and your work is so so
important and will have such,you know, such significant
reach.
So that's um absolutelyfantastic that you're feeling
that at that level.
(39:54):
But even the people who justparticipate in their school
level heats have often said, oh,I had people listening to you
really hard for three minutesand then later coming up and
saying, I had no idea aboutthis.
This sounds really fascinating.
Can I hear more about yourresearch?
And for the first time, theyfelt like actually their
(40:15):
research matters to people whoaren't their supervisor.
Yeah, so I think that that'sjust for every level, it it
really does have that reallyhuge power.
And obviously, the further upthe chain you go, the more that
is amplified.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:32):
Well, even when I did the presentation, not the
three-minute thesis one, butjust where I had to do a my own
presentation, um, I ended upbeing the only one.
And so for a whole hour, it wasjust having a conversation with
everyone in the room where Ijust kept talking about my
research because the, you know,questions kept coming and
observations.
And um, and I had that momentwhere it was like, oh, this is,
(40:56):
you know, this this matters,what I'm doing matters.
Um, so you know, that that'sthe other thing that I really
like.
I think that this is a newthing now with um uh when you're
doing your thesis, you have toactually do presentations either
at your um department or, youknow, but your supervisors have
to be there.
And so um there have been thosedepartment presentations,
(41:19):
there've been virtual ones,there were ones that were
happening at like a pub wherepeople were meeting, um, you
know, and then now, you know,also at the university.
And they really matter too,because when you do have to
articulate uh as you areprogressing, like obviously
(41:39):
every time I've presented, youknow, for the first stage, the
middle stage, the end stage, thepresentation has been
different.
I've been figuring out what I'mtalking about, figuring out my
focus.
Um, but doing thosepresentations did help me
through that process and didhelp me get there.
Katherine Firth (41:59):
Yeah, it's so it's almost almost all
universities around the world umhave some requirement for a
presentation right at the end,either as part of your Viber or
as a pre-submission um sort ofpresentation.
But it's become more common toexpect people to talk as they're
going because, as you say,there's this moment, sometimes
(42:19):
it's been seven years, like you,and you're like, does anybody
care?
And that's actually not afeeling anybody should have in
the university, becauseuniversities are communities of
scholars, and we do care.
We're so interested.
Um, and so it's so powerful toboth be creating your ideas in
conversation, as you say, butalso to get have people like
(42:41):
clap at the end and be like,that's great.
Like, no, people don't give youenough claps in academic life.
You should have more.
Amra Pajalic (42:49):
No, and yeah, like it does really um, I think also
one of the things that I wastalking to my supervisors and to
other people is like that end,it becomes even harder right at
the end.
Somehow I think that fatigueaccumulates.
And the fact that you're goingthrough so many drafts, and each
time um supervisors are gettingmore and more sort of, you
(43:12):
know, um rigorous in in commentsand in feedback.
And so somehow it gets harder.
And so having these momentswhere you're connecting and
you're having that bit of aboost, it helps you kind of push
through and get that momentumand and get that impetus that
you really need.
(43:32):
Um, because I I did there werequite a few stages where I was
like, I'm pulling out, I'm I'myou know, no, I think I'm done.
Um and I would have, you know,different people like come on.
You know, I've had my daughter,I've had my husband, I've had
my supervisors, I've had my, youknow, PhD friends.
Um, like, oh, come on, youknow, you're so close.
Are you sure?
Let's let's just, you know, onemore come on, you know, you can
(43:55):
see the light.
So um you do sort of need thatcommunity around you because
even though it is a soloproject, it is exhausting.
Katherine Firth (44:08):
It's so hard at the end.
And so everything you can do uhthat kind of gives you these
moments of light, brightencouragement are worth worth
pursuing.
Amra Pajalic (44:20):
So I just wanted to check were there any other um
tips and tricks, anything thatyou think that we sort of might
want to mention for uh peoplewho are wanting to enter the
three-minute thesis.
Katherine Firth (44:34):
Go for it is my main my main advice.
Um there's so much to begained, you know, in terms of
understanding your own project,in terms of connecting with
other people, in terms ofgetting encouragement, uh, in
terms of building your skills,whether you're interested in
academic progression or goingout into industry, or just, you
(44:56):
know, when people say, Oh, sotell me about your research
instead of going, oh, you know,at a barbecue, uh, don't worry
about it, nobody wouldunderstand it.
You're like, actually, I've gota really good version.
Do you want to hear it?
It's got jokes in it.
Um, so whatever, or not in thecase in your case, uh, but I
have a novel that you could readuh that I highly recommend.
Time is between mountains.
Uh but these have ways of kindof connecting uh your research
(45:21):
to other people.
So no, nothing to lose,everything to gain.
Um, it's a really affirmingprocess.
Uh it's scary, but it's also sorewarding.
Uh so definitely go out, have ago.
Three-minute thesis.
I mean, I've been I've beenchampioning it for years and
years because I see just howgood it is and just how good it
(45:43):
is for candidates.
Um so yeah, anybody who'slistening, have a go.
Amra Pajalic (45:48):
I agree.
I have to say, I, you know, asI said, it was just an academic
credit, just, you know, and Iwas very nervous.
I was practicing for like twoweeks.
Every day I went into a quietroom on the day and I was um
practicing it again over andover um to try and lower my
(46:09):
nerves.
But then when I came to thepresentation, because it was so
nice and informal and it wasjust the department, I didn't
feel intimidated.
I was like, no, I can do this.
And I kind of calmed down.
Um when I had the um heat whereit was like in in the Agora
Theater and everyone, that onewas nerve-wracking.
(46:31):
Um, and that one, you know, butI think the good thing about
that, because I was last, I andI was watching all these amazing
presenters.
I was like, oh, I don't have ahope in hell of winning.
Um, and so by the time it cameto me, I was like, I'm not
winning this thing.
I'm just getting a certificateof participation and another
academic credit on my CV whereI'm like, I did this.
(46:54):
Um, and so I went up there andI was like, okay, yeah, that's
fine.
Uh and so apparently my facewas quite comical when I was
announced as the winner, where Iwas like, if there's footage of
that, that might be a goodlaugh for someone.
So I guess um the point is youjust never know.
Like, you know, I play thelotto every week.
(47:14):
I'm like, I gotta be in it towin it.
And that's how we need to lookat some of these things.
You you just gotta give it ashot.
Um, you know, the worst thingis you won't get you won't win,
but at least you'll get theexperience out of it.
And it is a very valuableexperience.
Nothing to lose.
No.
Well, thank you so much,Catherine, for um having the
(47:35):
opportunity to have thisconversation and to really sort
of broaden this discussion aboutthe three-minute thesis and
hopefully help some othergraduate researchers who are
wanting to think about this tomake that leap.
Katherine Firth (47:48):
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for
having me on uh your amazingpodcast.
I hope it keeps going fromstrength to strength and can't
wait to hear the next one uhwhen it comes out uh about your
essays and your research.
Amra Pajalic (48:04):
Thank you so much, Catherine.
Thank you for listening to myinterview with Dr.
Catherine Firth about thethree-minute thesis competition.
I will now be including mythree-minute thesis application,
and so you'll be able to listento it.
This is the one that went tothe Asia Pacific heat, and I
will also include a link to theinitial La Trobe heat, which is
(48:27):
the one that I won.
Thank you.
It was the first genocide inEurope since the Holocaust.
(48:47):
Yet for many it's a footnote ifthey've heard of it at all.
As a Bosnian whose family livedthrough this war, my
perspective is shaped by twothings, my personal background
and my creative practice as anovelist.
My research asks a simplequestion: who gets to tell the
story of Swebodsa and how shouldit be remembered?
(49:07):
One of the most powerful waysin which the story is told is
through writing, becauseliterature does not merely
reflect history, but activelyreshapes it, circulating
memories in ways that challengeofficial silences and dominant
narratives.
I study two novels bynon-Bosnian authors that deal
specifically with the Stubadotamassacre: The Unquiet Dead by
(49:30):
Osmar Zahanak Khan, and Bratzottby Leslie Ann Ryan.
Khan explores pluralismpropaganda and international
failure.
Ryan centers peacekeepers butsidelines Bosnian voices.
So I look deeper.
Into author notes andacknowledgments.
How much research did they do?
Who did they center?
Because when you write aboutgenocide, your choices shape
(49:53):
memory.
Both authors missed afundamental part of the
Stabodenica story, the urbanrule divide that shaped who
lived and who didn't in theenclave.
I'm doing this because I am awriter myself.
Using a creative practicemethodology grounded in
historical fiction, I'veaddressed the research question
by writing my novel, Time KneelsBetween Mountains Set, in
(50:17):
besieged Webeduncer during thewar.
The medium of historicalfiction allows me to address the
gap that I identified in theexisting literature, the
urban-rural divide.
I crafted a cross-class romancebetween my crime fighting Romeo
and Juliet, Rama, a young manfrom a rural village, and Selka,
an urban-born survivor, andoriginal resident of Slabonica.
(50:41):
Their love unfolds against the1995 genocide.
Like Titanic, the charactersare fictional, but the tragedy
is real.
If we don't question howSlabonica is written about,
distortion becomes truth.
Fiction isn't just made up.
It's where we remember, reckon,and rebuild.
My thesis exposesmisrepresentations and demands
(51:05):
accountability.
For my family, this genocide isnot a footnote, and through my
PhD, it has become the novel.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
(51:27):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
I'm Amra Paelich, writer,teacher, and storyteller.
Pull up a chair and let's diveinto stories about writing,
life, and lessons learned.
Sharing wisdom from my armchairto yours.
You can find the episode shownotes, your free episode
(00:22):
handouts, and my how to guide atamrait.com slash podcast.
And now it's time to dive in.
So welcome to Amra's ArmchairAnecdotes.
In today's episode, I'm talkingto Dr.
Catherine First.
She's been developing researchwriters for over 15 years.
(00:43):
Currently, she's a seniorlecturer in the research
education and development teamat La Trome University and head
of the Lisa Belair House.
Is that how I say that?
Belair House at the Universityof Melbourne, co-founder of the
award-winning thesis boot campprogram.
She maintains a writing blog,Research Degree Insiders.
(01:04):
And she's co-author of thebooks How to Fix Your Academic
Writing Trouble, Your PhDSurvival Guide, and Level Up
Your Essays.
And her most recent book isWriting Well and Being Well for
Your PhD and Beyond.
Welcome, Catherine.
Katherine Firth (01:19):
Thank you so much for having me today, Amra.
Amra Pajalic (01:22):
Thank you.
Now I'm uh talking to you in myacademic life and in my
academic journey.
So I'm just going to read alittle bit of my academic uh
introduction and bio.
So I'm an award-winning author,educator, but I'm also a PhD
researcher of Bosnian heritage,exploring representations of the
(01:43):
Bosnian genocide in fiction.
I'm blending storytelling withhistorical analysis to confront
dehumanization and preserve of acultural memory.
My novel, Time Kneels BetweenMountains, and my accompanying
essay collection explores thelegacy of the surveillance of
genocide.
And I'm here because I wasawarded a first prize in the La
(02:04):
Trode University three-minutethesis competition.
And it was a fiercecompetition.
There were 10 amazingcompetitors.
And I won a 4,000 prize to helpmy further my academic journey,
which I'm very excited about.
So we're here to talk about thethree-minute thesis program and
(02:25):
what it is and what it does.
Get your perspective as someonewho supports students in that
journey.
I just want to get myperspective as someone who has
stumbled into it as a studentand won this amazing prize and
yeah, to sort of contextualizethat.
So first of all, I thought, canyou um tell us what is the
(02:47):
three-minute thesis competition?
Katherine Firth (02:50):
Thank you, Amra.
And before I do, to saycongratulations again.
Well done.
You were absolutely like it wassuch a fierce competition.
There was real, there was real,really uh complex debates about
who would win.
So to have um to have achievedthat is a really great outcome.
(03:13):
Um and also it's lovely to getto talk to each other again as
we're going to um kind ofdescribe through this the
process of preparing for theuniversity finals was quite
intensive.
We spent quite a lot of timetogether.
So it's really great to catchup just this a little bit later
and uh see how it's all goingand uh reflect on what was a
really intense um experience, Ithink, for everybody involved.
(03:35):
Certainly it was for me.
Um I personally have beeninvolved in supporting
three-minute thesis uhpreparation for about 15 years
now.
Um, the and the the wholeprogram has been going on for a
lot longer than that.
Um so the three-minute thesiswas invented by the University
(03:55):
of Queensland uh nearly twodecades ago.
Um, it's become uh first anational and now an
international uh competition uhculminating uh in the Asia
Pacific finals, which have onlyjust taken place.
Um the competition issimultaneously extraordinarily
(04:16):
simple and incrediblychallenging.
The challenge is for PhDcandidates, so people in their
second or later year of theirPhD, to explain their research
in three minutes or less.
PhDs are 80 or more thousandwords, they take three or four
(04:38):
years full-time study to do.
They're done by people whoalready have school,
undergraduate, master's, andquite a bit of uh, you know,
high degree by research, PhDlevel research already in the
bag.
And at that moment, we're like,so can you just like do that
(04:58):
really quickly and do that in away that somebody who's not in
your discipline, not studyingwhat you're studying, not an
expert in that way, can follow.
So we have um at the finals atLa Trobe, for example, those 10
candidates, they came frombiomedicine.
We had a person who was doing athing about like how people in
(05:20):
farms work out what flies andother insects are eating stuff.
We had a person who was lookingat like how dieting was
impacting male mice' brainpower.
We had a person who was tryingto um help midwives uh on
placement be more effective.
(05:41):
Like everything was beingcovered.
And then we had you, Amara, andyou were telling your story,
um, both of your um about yournovel, Time Kneels Between
Mountains, uh, and uh thecontext and uh wider research
you were doing around how thatsits uh in in literature.
(06:02):
So, you know, creative writing,uh literary studies, recent
history.
Um so all these different kindsof things are happening, and
people have to be able tounderstand them wherever they
come from.
Amra Pajalic (06:14):
Yeah.
Well, I I kind of stumbled intoit because I had to do my
presentation um to, you know,like come in and to the
department.
And then they were like, okay,you know, we're asking for
people to enter the three-minutecompetition at the department
level.
Um, and because I'm fine, I wasfinally at a point where I
(06:34):
could see my thesis, I actuallyhad a a bit of clarity about
what was going on with itbecause that's for a long time I
felt like wading through mud,where it's like, what am I
trying to do here?
What am I trying to write?
I just entered it because Ithought, oh, this is a good
academic credit.
Um, because I'm thinking aboutyou know my future academic
journey and trying to um, youknow, get into the university
(06:58):
sector.
And I was like, oh, this is agreat opportunity just for an
academic credit, just you know,to speak at the department.
And there were some prizeswhere there was like, you know,
$500 um first prize and youknow, 300 and 200, I think.
Um and so I was just thought,oh, that's great.
That's that's I didn't evenknow that there was more after
(07:21):
that.
So when I did the actual, youknow, so I practiced, I
rehearsed, I thought, oh, thisis good as a teacher, that I can
talk to my high school studentsthat I teach about oral
presentations and preparingthem.
I'm always telling them cuecards and you know, practice and
all of this.
So I thought, okay, this isgood, you know, gave me that
(07:41):
extra reason to do it.
So um I did that presentationand then they were like, oh,
you've won.
And then they're like, and nowdo you wish to represent the
department in the next heat?
And I'm like, oh, there's a anext heat.
Katherine Firth (07:58):
And there is, there are so many rounds because
there was there's thedepartment.
So at Lutrobe, as in mostuniversities, there's like
schools and departments do them,and then it goes up to the
university finals, and then itgoes on to the Asia Pacific
semifinals, uh, all of which yougot into.
(08:18):
Uh, and then the finals, um,yeah, so it's it's like it's
layers and layers and layers.
Amazing.
Amra Pajalic (08:25):
It is, and then also I didn't realize what a big
deal it was.
Um, because you know, when whenI got the um department one and
then was in touch with um withAnthony, who was who what what
uh can you explain Anthony'sposition?
Katherine Firth (08:42):
Oh, he's the director of graduate research.
So every department has um anacademic who helps uh coordinate
all graduate research sort oftraining, ethics, admin, uh
works with all the doctoralsupervisors, uh is a first port
of call for um students who needto go above their supervisor
(09:06):
for whatever reason, uh, andinterfaces with the central uh
graduate services for thingslike policy changes and um and
things like please can you findme a whole group of people to do
three-minute thesis because uhthat's a really important part
of what they do.
Amra Pajalic (09:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so he was like, okay, nowyou're going to do one-on-one
coaching.
And so that's where you camein, where um I met you.
And so we spent like an intensehour um where I was reading my
speech to you and going throughit line by line.
Um, and we were tightening andlooking at, in a sense, um, what
(09:43):
was interesting for me waslooking for codes for how to
sort of um tell what the thestory of my thesis, but how to
use coded language.
So I remember we were talkingabout, you know, this romance
that I had, and you're likeRomeo and Juliet romance.
And as soon as we use thatcode, we know that it's a boomed
romance in a sense.
Katherine Firth (10:04):
Yeah, because there was a stage where I was
like, did they get together andlive happily ever after in the
end?
And you're like, no, no, that'snot my story.
Amra Pajalic (10:14):
Yeah.
And so it was reallyfascinating because um, you
know, for me to write that firstspeech, I had to go online and
I found like an outline um thatI could use to write the
structure.
And then I was editing and and,you know, really trying to get
it down.
Um, and then it was justinteresting how we really then
went into it further, word byword, um, to really kind of
(10:38):
strengthen every bit of it.
Um, and then also there was alittle bit of you know
rehearsing with you, um, and yougiving me pointers.
And the other thing that wasimportant and I sort of didn't
realize was um the slide and theslide.
So you only get one staticslide that you can have as your
(11:02):
background.
Um, so that was another reallyimportant thing that you had to
think about and how how willthat you know connect with the
audience.
Katherine Firth (11:11):
Um what was actually really interesting is
that the way that we workedtogether, every person I worked
with, what they needed wastotally different.
So I had some people where umwhat was what they kind of
really needed was more of likethe emotional heart of the
story.
Or I had other people where thethings that weren't clear were
(11:35):
really obvious things.
I was like, you've used a wholeload of uh acronyms there.
I don't know what they mean, noone else will know what they
mean.
Uh, with some of the sciencepeople.
Um I had a lot of time with umwith Lockie, who was doing the
one about the the flies andother uh agricultural insects,
(11:55):
getting him to explain it to me,and then me trying to explain
it back to him.
And he was like, no.
And we had to go around a fewtimes, and then he was like a
data and I was like, okay, sothat's the version that people
who are non-experts will be ableto understand.
Because he was turning all ofthese insects into some kind of
DNA soup and then doing maths toit.
(12:17):
And I was like, I really wasstruggling to understand that.
But in the end, we got to apoint where I can now tell you
that he was putting insects intoa DNA soup and then doing maths
with it, and that will tell youwhether or not you've got lots
of kinds of insects eating yourfruit and vegetable.
Um, so some of the people, thatwas what they needed.
You, because you're a writer,were really already ready to do
(12:41):
that kind of line edit.
But that's the thing that onlycreative writers already know
how to do.
So it was also reallyinteresting that we worked, the
way we worked together was muchmore the way I work um as a
writer myself, but that sort ofreally line level, uh, whereas
other people needed somethingdifferent.
And so we did somethingdifferent.
Amra Pajalic (13:01):
Yeah.
So what what I'm hearing, in asense, like that's the challenge
because you're doing that toyour department first.
They understand what you'retalking about.
Um, and you know, you you don'trealize, in a sense, if you
have not translated it enoughfor the layperson, for someone
who knows nothing about yourresearch, and you have got these
(13:24):
three minutes where you have totell them that.
Katherine Firth (13:28):
Absolutely, that they understand it and also
that they've already bought inthat you're doing it.
We have a cancer researchcenter.
Everybody in the cancerresearch center absolutely
believes that killing cancer isthe most important thing.
They've all already given theirlives to it.
Um, and so that was that wasn'ta hard sell.
That's also not usually a hardsell.
(13:48):
Most people uh agree thatthat's really important.
Whereas we have other kinds ofum projects where people had to
explain.
Actually, my research might notsound like it's very
interesting, might not soundlike it's really relevant, might
not sound like it's important,but actually it is.
And here's how um, even thoughyou've never thought about it
before, it's actually reallyrelevant to you.
Amra Pajalic (14:11):
Yeah.
So what would you, in terms ofpeople who like me, stumbled
into it and were like, okay, I'mjust gonna do it for my
department as you know, theacademic credit, how would you
um advise them to sort of startthe process?
Like for me, it was finding thestructure for um how to write
(14:32):
the the thesis and sort ofputting it together based on
that.
What other tips do you have?
Katherine Firth (14:39):
The main thing that is um is important is
really to understand why itmatters to you.
Human beings really respond toother humans.
Um, they really respond to yourauthenticity, to your feelings,
to your passion.
Uh and so if you've worked outwhat really why you got into it
(15:00):
or remember why you got into itperhaps years and years ago, um,
then that can really help youuh connect to the kind of you
know electric third rail, thekind of heart of the story.
Um and that then um I'll go along way listening to people who
I have no idea what you'retalking about, but I know you
care.
And that really is somethingthat can bring audiences with
(15:23):
them.
Um when we talk about when werun the workshops, so there were
workshops about this uh that werun to support that.
We've got an online module thatkind of gives advice about it.
So we we sort of also give sometechnical advice around it.
Um, and we definitely uhrecommend that people spend time
(15:43):
to tell to identify what theirstory is, give some kind of
beginning, some kind of middle,some kind of end, um, and to
start and end with somethingthat's really strong.
One of the candidates for thefinals didn't make a time to see
me one-on-one.
And it was, I was chatting withmy colleagues later, and they
(16:04):
were like, was that the personwho didn't come?
Because they could guess.
And what was really obviousabout it was that his beginning
and his end were not as strongas the people who'd really
rehearsed.
Start with a joke, start with alike unbelievably shocking and
um surprising or you know,enormous uh fact.
(16:27):
Start with how it relates toyou, start with why it matters,
those kinds of things.
People want, are really keen tocome along if you'll just give
them a way in.
So really give them a strongway in and then really kind of
return to that uh in theconclusion so they can remember
it uh when you've walked off thestage, because then they can
(16:49):
remember what it was that yousaid.
So when they're voting for you,they're like, oh yes, that one,
that was really strong.
That really um that was reallysignificant for me.
Amra Pajalic (16:59):
So there's also, I'm sure every university will
sort of have some of the thingsthat you were talking about in
terms of the modules, in termsof opportunities for um to talk
to people.
So, you know, getting thoseopportunities, taking advantage
of them uh is something thatwe're really sort of saying is
is pivotal.
Yeah.
Katherine Firth (17:18):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's like starting, you know,you don't have to start with a
blank page, you don't have to doit on your own.
It's been going forever now.
You can also jump online.
Um, UQ has really great uhresources, has videos of
previous winners, had a wholerange of things.
Most universities will alsohave that.
(17:39):
So you're not starting withlike, what do I even do?
You can go and listen to awhole load of people whose work
sort of looks a bit like yoursand go, oh, that's how they've
tackled it.
I could do something similar.
Amra Pajalic (17:50):
Yeah.
Well, I was very silly and Ididn't do any of that.
Katherine Firth (17:54):
So I was completely also break the rules,
do whatever, have a go, becauseas you can see, even just
stumbling into it, it's easyenough.
The idea of it, I've just gotto explain it in three minutes.
I mean, it was challenging, butit also wasn't um impossible.
Amra Pajalic (18:15):
No, no, I think uh I mean the advantage for me, as
you said, is that I'm a writer,and so that creative background
and the writing part held me ingood stead.
And then also I've had a lot ofexperience with public
speaking.
So I came in with those twostrengths, but I did um really
find the opportunity to get thecoaching from you uh and then
(18:36):
later with Anthony for the finaland that refining um really,
you know, was invaluable, reallymade a difference.
I just also wanted to talkabout in terms of the um, you
know, we had the departmentheat, so that was just in a room
in the university with, youknow, people who showed up.
But um, when we had the actuallecturer date, like that was fun
(19:03):
because we had um a rehearsalbeforehand in the actual space
to see the auditorium.
And then on the day there waslive streaming and recording and
you as the MC.
So yeah, I thought I justwanted you to contextualize that
also.
Katherine Firth (19:23):
Absolutely.
So the three-minute thesis isone of our flagship uh whole of
university research uhdevelopment uh events.
Um and so, and it's been alittle bit pre-COVID, it was
massive, it was bigger thanBenho.
There's no way you wouldn'thave known about it.
It's gone a bit quieter, youknow, it all went online for a
few years, and then we were sortof bringing it back.
(19:44):
Uh and this year, I was like,no, we're going all out.
We got good budget for it.
Uh, so the graduate researchschool really kind of uh
invested in it.
We searched reams of differentrooms at La Trobe and settled on
the Agoras Theatre, uh, thecinema, rather.
So for people who don't know,uh La Trobe University has had
(20:06):
uh a whole theatre and a wholeum sort of art cinema.
Um, people, I was just talkingto somebody who I was at a
leadership course with the otherday, who was like, yeah,
actually, I got into film.
He's now had a you know globalstreaming, film, television um
career because I got into filmgoing to the ag cinema for five
(20:29):
bucks uh back in the 90s.
So like these really beautifulstories, which people often tell
me about their connection tothis space.
So, but it's a full cinema.
Huge, loads of chairs,beautiful space right in the
center uh of campus.
We did a full dress rehearsalbecause I was like, nobody, I
(20:50):
used to do, I used to dostudent-like productions.
So I was like, you need toknow, will my shoes make weird
sounds on the floor?
How, if I wear these, thisoutfit, how will the microphone
like clip to my lapel?
Because everybody has worn theshirt that like got pulled off
by the microphone or that madeweird sort of pushy noises as
(21:12):
you were trying to present.
What does it feel like topresent to this space?
But we were doing it withnobody in the audience.
And on the day, there were like80 people in the audience.
There were, I think, threedifferent video cameras, there
was a photographer or two, therewere two photographers, in
fact.
So it was like it was biggerthan Ben Her.
(21:33):
Um, and for most people, um,especially either the biggest
thing that they'd done like thatin a very long time.
Um, and for some people, theonly time they'd ever stood up
in what was basically atelevision audience, a light
television audience, um,broadcasting right across the
state.
La Trobe has uh campuses rightacross Victoria and across the
(21:58):
world.
We had um audience from allover the globe.
So it was a really, reallyfull-scale event.
Um and it's yeah, and then andthen we take video from that
event, and that video goes offuh to the finals, which are all
up on the YouTube website.
Um, yeah, so it'd be it's justit's a really big, really
(22:19):
full-scale uh experience withcatering afterwards, um, and is
one of the things that we reallysee as one of the few ways that
we bring people togetherphysically um and synchronously
uh across the trope.
Amra Pajalic (22:32):
Yeah, I mean, I was so relieved I was there for
the dress rehearsal and I Ireally had that chance to
prepare.
And also we had a conversationwhere um my topic is quite dark
and you know it's aboutgenocide, and I was like, put me
on last because I bring themood down.
And so I think that worked verywell.
Katherine Firth (22:53):
Um, but yeah, absolutely.
There was an original one wherewe had yours and then the next
person's story had lots of jokesin it, and it was not good.
Amra Pajalic (23:03):
Yeah, no, um, yeah, so it was yeah, so that
that's the other thing that yousort of need to take into
account, those transitions interms of mood and and how to,
because yeah, some of thespeakers were um, everyone was
so charismatic.
I was completely shocked that Iwon.
And the other thing um that Iwanted to talk about is I could
not memorize my speech to savemy life.
(23:26):
And I think, especially being awriter, I'm very tied to like
every single word having to beexactly perfect to the way that
I wrote it down.
And so for me, trying toactually memorize the whole
thing and go in without anythingwas not something I could do.
Um, but so many participantsdid um just get up there and did
(23:51):
not have any um aids.
And so we had that conversationwhere I was like, can I have my
cue cards?
So I just thought, um, yeah, ifyou could sort of flag that and
talk that through a bit.
Katherine Firth (24:02):
Absolutely.
So the rules say you can haveuh memory aids, so cue cards,
your full script, uh, and thoseare absolutely permissible.
Um, we usually recommend thatyou don't because it's quite
difficult if you're going to,you know, speak up, speak out,
project to the audience, um, youknow, make eye contact if you
(24:23):
want to gesture, if you're likeme, um, and you make lots of
hand gestures, uh, the chancesthat I would throw my cue cards
um is um I used to do debatingat school and absolutely
Catherine of the debate team, mycue cards, the number of times
I was like, oh no, they havegone flying, uh was quite
common.
Uh so there's some of that kindof stuff where we're like,
(24:45):
look, if you can memorize it,there's a lot of benefit to it.
Um also for most people's talk,the big, your big points are
much more important uh than anyof the details about how every
particular word kind ofinterlocks with every other
word.
But I think that kind of goesback to both the sensitivity of
(25:07):
your topic and the way that wewere workshopping your talk from
the beginning.
You know, that we were reallyinterested in the words and and
the kind of exact pacing of theway you talked about what you
did.
So for you to wing it wouldhave been much harder than
(25:28):
somebody else who you know hadtheir talking points, but if
they were a little bit fudgy inhow they got from A to B, it was
probably not going to be quiteas as significant.
Um yeah.
So you can have a memory aid,um, but we often recommend that
you at least try to go without.
Amra Pajalic (25:45):
Yeah, so I um just wanted to talk through the
technical aspects of my memoryaids.
Um so I did my speech in Word18 font, nice and big, because I
can't read things without myglasses, so they had to be nice
and big.
I printed off um a few cardsabout this size, um, so on the
(26:06):
10 by 10 centimetres.
And then I did staple them, Inumbered them and I stapled them
so that I would not lose theorder and they would not fall
out of my hands because that'ssomething, yes, I was nervous
about.
And this is the advantage ofbeing a high school teacher and
seeing students presenting andsome of the pitfalls that they
(26:26):
had.
So afterwards of speaking tothe judges and I I watched my
speech and I actually did notlook at them that much.
I was able to maintain eyecontact significantly.
I had actually um rote learnedquite a bit of it, but I just
could not um, you know, trustmyself not to have that exact
(26:49):
order and to have that exactflow.
And also, yes, the language wasvery important in terms of the
words that I used.
So for me, that was the bestdecision, and I managed to win
with that.
So um I guess that's one thingto think about in terms of what
your speech is like.
Is it something where you cantell the story and capture the
(27:12):
general story of it?
And there were also people whowere using their um slide as the
memory aid, where they wereactually using it to tell the
story of their thesis, um, andthey were able to do that.
So, you know, I guess the thepoint to be made is there is no
one way of doing it.
Each thesis and each topic andeach um discipline will inform
(27:37):
the way that you might want todo it.
But I just want to make otherslike me feel okay about the fact
that yes, you might need uh amemory aid.
And then um we recorded againum for the Asia Pacific uh
final.
So I worked with Anthony onthat draft also, and I recorded
(28:00):
that on my phone, and I have anapp that is um an auto cue app.
And so I was able to revisewith him again, uh, put it on
the app and record myself on myphone and do another version
that was tweaked again for thefinal.
Um, and most of that was stillpretty much the same, but there
(28:22):
were some changes.
But because it was an autoqueue and I re-recorded it, um,
and so that's the other thingthat you know it might change
each time.
If you are progressing, you dohave that opportunity to refine,
to improve.
Katherine Firth (28:38):
And you really should.
Um, people who do the samething, the thing that will win
at your school heat, um,everybody else is revising and
improving it.
So you absolutely want uh tokeep going uh to improve it for
these bigger and biggeraudiences.
It occurs to me that as youwere talking, that one of the
big differences is that uhscience researchers, when they
(29:02):
go to conferences, tend to giveconference papers where they
talk to their slides.
So actually the big points areup on the slide and then they
sort of talk to them.
Whereas when I go toconferences, I have a full
script and have always had afull script.
That's just normal in mydiscipline.
And people say, oh gosh, it'sreally boring when people read
stuff out.
And I'm like, no, it's not,because we're good at it.
(29:24):
Uh, you know, we really do, wepresent with energy, we present
with, you know, real passion,but we know that the words are
really the right words becausethat's how we communicate our
research.
So I think that's the otherthing is that if you're from a
discipline where presenting withpassion from a full script is a
(29:45):
thing you're really good at,you may find that that's a
really great strategy forsomething like 3MT.
Amra Pajalic (29:52):
Yeah, and I think like with writing, with all of
my stuff, you know, even all thewriting things, it is it is
very much because it is aboutthe words.
And I I have now presented at afew conferences.
And, you know, I do have theslides of some quotes, some key
quotes or key images.
And you mark those in yourspeech so you know to click
(30:14):
next.
But it is, it is very much theway that it is structured and it
is the way reading it.
I also want to talk about this.
Is what I've been reallyinterested in, because I I I
knew generally, like I don'treally know much about academia.
I'm doing a PhD or I've beendoing it seven years part-time.
So I've been very disconnectedfrom uni life because it's a
(30:39):
part-time thing.
I work um day job.
And so I did it because I'mlike, I know that if I want to
get into academia, I needcredits, I need to have
connections with the university.
So that's why I entered it.
So I guess I just wanted toalso get your perspective in
terms of what are theopportunities that it affords?
(30:59):
What, what, um, you know, howdoes it help?
Katherine Firth (31:02):
So it helps in such a lot of different ways.
Um, in terms of uh specificallyum academic positions, look,
anytime you win anything, yay,that's a that's a little trophy
on your shelf.
So if you are entering it andyou do do well, that does make a
difference.
We often, though, really uhtalk about it in a whole range
(31:25):
uh of other ways that itconnects you to people.
So you go to your school uhheat, uh you talk about your
research in front of your peers,suddenly a whole load of people
who had no idea who you were,what you were doing, have heard
about your research.
Uh so that then when they bumpinto you in the graduate common
(31:46):
room, when they walk past you inthe corridor, instead of just
being like, hi, um, they can belike, Hi, AMRA, how's is the
book out yet?
How's it selling?
What's the what's going on?
You know, what's your nextproject?
Because they actually havesomething to talk to you about.
So it really builds uh what wecall intellectual climate, some
kind of you know, connectionsbetween researchers and builds
(32:08):
your profile within that uhsmaller um space.
We know that in uh conferences,lots of conferences now have
things like poster competitionsuh or panel discussions.
In those, having three to fiveminutes to kind of talk about
your research is really normal.
So for a lot of people, it'sreally helpful to get out there
(32:29):
and kind of talk about whatthey're doing to uh their
industry, to other researchersin their discipline across the
nation, across the world.
We know that industry partnersare not very interested in
reading 80,000 words ofanything, um, but we absolutely
know that they're often askingresearchers to come in, uh give
(32:52):
a really quick pitch orexplanation to potential
investors or to you know umparticipants or to clients or
customers or patients orwhatever the people might be.
And so the ability to walk inand go, here, you know nothing
about this, but I'm going totell it to you in a really
(33:13):
engaging way in about threeminutes is a really powerful
tool.
And we know it's a reallypowerful tool in the media.
Um, where one of the ways thatum researchers often find really
challenging is we'rediscovering this amazing stuff.
And it's really hard to explainto other people what we're
doing, where are people gettingtheir information from?
(33:35):
Podcasts, newspaper articles,little videos on YouTube or
Instagram.
The ability, therefore, to goon, do something really engaging
uh in that sort of short snaptype way is also something that
really helps people get theirstory out to the wider, the
wider public who might beinterested.
(33:56):
Yeah, so so many ways that it'suseful.
Amra Pajalic (33:59):
Yeah, well, I found for me, it really helped
me restructuring my thesisbecause using that structure to
develop the three minute, um, Irealized that one of my chapters
I had not addressed my argumentadequately.
And then also some of the codesthat we had developed, the the
shortcut codes, um, I was ableto use as my signposting and
(34:25):
sort of look at the flow of ofwhat I was writing.
Um, so it helped me with that,but it also um helped me in a
few other ways.
I because I've been um, youknow, part-time and I'm not on
campus as much, I haven't beenreally connected with a lot of
things in the university.
And so I've been actuallypaying attention more to emails.
(34:49):
I mean, I was always readingthem, but I wasn't like, oh,
this is something I should bedoing.
So I've started looking atother things to enter, other
opportunities in this time I'vegot before I submit, and those
doors are closed.
Um, but the other thing is Iwant to um I've written a book
of essays based on my research.
(35:09):
And so my plan is to use myprize money to apply for further
grants um to develop that intoa podcast, the historical
podcast, telling the story ofSteven Itza.
And so being able to say, Ireceived $4,000 from Latrobe
University for this prize, andI'm using this for my research
(35:33):
will hopefully make me astronger candidate for funding
and create more opportunities inthat way in terms of that
sharing of my research.
Um, and I remember having aconversation with someone, and
they're like, but what's thepoint of the podcast?
Are you going to make moneyfrom it?
And I'm like, no, probably not.
But this is the thing.
We we're researchers and we'rewriters and we're creative
(35:56):
people, and we come up withideas that we just want to
share.
We just want to get out there.
And so it's looking for thosedifferent ways and different
opportunities to share theseideas and share these things
that we've discovered that we'velearned for other people to
learn.
Katherine Firth (36:15):
I love the fact that this whole competition,
which is about making people'sresearch more accessible to
other people, um, even in areally short way, is going to
turn into something like apodcast series that, you know,
just really gives people theopportunity to understand these
(36:35):
really important, um nuanced,you know, you were, and you with
these codes that we were using,these really like jam-packed
full of meaning.
And we, you know, we rehearsed,is it a Romeo and Juliet
romance?
Is it a different kind so thatwe really were getting the story
right?
Um, that you're going to have achance to unpack that in the
(36:58):
way that I love to listen toreally discursive podcasts.
I hope people like that too,because this is definitely what
we're doing today.
Um, but like that we're goingto have that that you that that
accessibility is just buildingmore accessibility because
that's that's amazing.
Um, I love that.
Amra Pajalic (37:17):
That's the thing.
And I think what I got out ofthis is I just really wanted to
encourage more people who are inmy position where you're just
working solo on your thesis, onyour writing.
The only people you're engagingwith really on an ongoing basis
are your supervisors, andthey're the only ones that sort
of know everything that's goingon.
Um, and just you know, havingthat opportunity to because I
(37:41):
loved meeting the otherresearchers.
I loved sitting in theauditorium and hearing all these
other researchers speakingabout their um writing and their
ideas um and and what they haddiscovered with passion, are
connected with some of them onyou know, LinkedIn, on social
media.
And so that that opportunityfor connection um is really, you
(38:05):
know, key.
And just you never know.
Like one of the things thatI've I've discovered along the
way is some of my best ideashave come through just random
conversations with people, whereI'm I'm just talking about
something that is going on withme, and you know, suddenly
someone throws something intothe conversation and and you
(38:27):
know, my brain starts spinningon it.
Um, and and that's what theseopportunities are also.
It's that opportunity to sortof talk to people in in the same
position and see, you know,where could it take you?
Could it be anothercollaboration, could be a
sharing of ideas?
Um, so yeah, it's been it'sbeen really wonderful.
And I think confidence booster,which we were talking about
(38:49):
also, because um you're sort oflike, I think this is important
and I think this islife-changing, and just sort of
getting that confirmation andhearing from other people after
you know the three-minute thesisand and they hear um what
you're doing, seeing, you know,people's interest um just
(39:10):
confirms, like, yes.
And for me, if I had any doubtsabout making this podcast a
reality, uh, they have now veryfirmly been put to bed um
because it's like, no, this issomething that is important,
this research is important, andkeep moving forward towards that
goal.
So yeah, it's been it's been awonderful journey, I have to
(39:33):
say.
Katherine Firth (39:33):
Oh, that that's that's precisely what we're
hoping uh happens for everybodyat every stage of the
competition.
I mean, obviously you've hadthis and your work is so so
important and will have such,you know, such significant
reach.
So that's um absolutelyfantastic that you're feeling
that at that level.
(39:54):
But even the people who justparticipate in their school
level heats have often said, oh,I had people listening to you
really hard for three minutesand then later coming up and
saying, I had no idea aboutthis.
This sounds really fascinating.
Can I hear more about yourresearch?
And for the first time, theyfelt like actually their
(40:15):
research matters to people whoaren't their supervisor.
Yeah, so I think that that'sjust for every level, it it
really does have that reallyhuge power.
And obviously, the further upthe chain you go, the more that
is amplified.
Yeah.
Amra Pajalic (40:32):
Well, even when I did the presentation, not the
three-minute thesis one, butjust where I had to do a my own
presentation, um, I ended upbeing the only one.
And so for a whole hour, it wasjust having a conversation with
everyone in the room where Ijust kept talking about my
research because the, you know,questions kept coming and
observations.
And um, and I had that momentwhere it was like, oh, this is,
(40:56):
you know, this this matters,what I'm doing matters.
Um, so you know, that that'sthe other thing that I really
like.
I think that this is a newthing now with um uh when you're
doing your thesis, you have toactually do presentations either
at your um department or, youknow, but your supervisors have
to be there.
And so um there have been thosedepartment presentations,
(41:19):
there've been virtual ones,there were ones that were
happening at like a pub wherepeople were meeting, um, you
know, and then now, you know,also at the university.
And they really matter too,because when you do have to
articulate uh as you areprogressing, like obviously
(41:39):
every time I've presented, youknow, for the first stage, the
middle stage, the end stage, thepresentation has been
different.
I've been figuring out what I'mtalking about, figuring out my
focus.
Um, but doing thosepresentations did help me
through that process and didhelp me get there.
Katherine Firth (41:59):
Yeah, it's so it's almost almost all
universities around the world umhave some requirement for a
presentation right at the end,either as part of your Viber or
as a pre-submission um sort ofpresentation.
But it's become more common toexpect people to talk as they're
going because, as you say,there's this moment, sometimes
(42:19):
it's been seven years, like you,and you're like, does anybody
care?
And that's actually not afeeling anybody should have in
the university, becauseuniversities are communities of
scholars, and we do care.
We're so interested.
Um, and so it's so powerful toboth be creating your ideas in
conversation, as you say, butalso to get have people like
(42:41):
clap at the end and be like,that's great.
Like, no, people don't give youenough claps in academic life.
You should have more.
Amra Pajalic (42:49):
No, and yeah, like it does really um, I think also
one of the things that I wastalking to my supervisors and to
other people is like that end,it becomes even harder right at
the end.
Somehow I think that fatigueaccumulates.
And the fact that you're goingthrough so many drafts, and each
time um supervisors are gettingmore and more sort of, you
(43:12):
know, um rigorous in in commentsand in feedback.
And so somehow it gets harder.
And so having these momentswhere you're connecting and
you're having that bit of aboost, it helps you kind of push
through and get that momentumand and get that impetus that
you really need.
(43:32):
Um, because I I did there werequite a few stages where I was
like, I'm pulling out, I'm I'myou know, no, I think I'm done.
Um and I would have, you know,different people like come on.
You know, I've had my daughter,I've had my husband, I've had
my supervisors, I've had my, youknow, PhD friends.
Um, like, oh, come on, youknow, you're so close.
Are you sure?
Let's let's just, you know, onemore come on, you know, you can
(43:55):
see the light.
So um you do sort of need thatcommunity around you because
even though it is a soloproject, it is exhausting.
Katherine Firth (44:08):
It's so hard at the end.
And so everything you can do uhthat kind of gives you these
moments of light, brightencouragement are worth worth
pursuing.
Amra Pajalic (44:20):
So I just wanted to check were there any other um
tips and tricks, anything thatyou think that we sort of might
want to mention for uh peoplewho are wanting to enter the
three-minute thesis.
Katherine Firth (44:34):
Go for it is my main my main advice.
Um there's so much to begained, you know, in terms of
understanding your own project,in terms of connecting with
other people, in terms ofgetting encouragement, uh, in
terms of building your skills,whether you're interested in
academic progression or goingout into industry, or just, you
(44:56):
know, when people say, Oh, sotell me about your research
instead of going, oh, you know,at a barbecue, uh, don't worry
about it, nobody wouldunderstand it.
You're like, actually, I've gota really good version.
Do you want to hear it?
It's got jokes in it.
Um, so whatever, or not in thecase in your case, uh, but I
have a novel that you could readuh that I highly recommend.
Time is between mountains.
Uh but these have ways of kindof connecting uh your research
(45:21):
to other people.
So no, nothing to lose,everything to gain.
Um, it's a really affirmingprocess.
Uh it's scary, but it's also sorewarding.
Uh so definitely go out, have ago.
Three-minute thesis.
I mean, I've been I've beenchampioning it for years and
years because I see just howgood it is and just how good it
(45:43):
is for candidates.
Um so yeah, anybody who'slistening, have a go.
Amra Pajalic (45:48):
I agree.
I have to say, I, you know, asI said, it was just an academic
credit, just, you know, and Iwas very nervous.
I was practicing for like twoweeks.
Every day I went into a quietroom on the day and I was um
practicing it again over andover um to try and lower my
(46:09):
nerves.
But then when I came to thepresentation, because it was so
nice and informal and it wasjust the department, I didn't
feel intimidated.
I was like, no, I can do this.
And I kind of calmed down.
Um when I had the um heat whereit was like in in the Agora
Theater and everyone, that onewas nerve-wracking.
(46:31):
Um, and that one, you know, butI think the good thing about
that, because I was last, I andI was watching all these amazing
presenters.
I was like, oh, I don't have ahope in hell of winning.
Um, and so by the time it cameto me, I was like, I'm not
winning this thing.
I'm just getting a certificateof participation and another
academic credit on my CV whereI'm like, I did this.
(46:54):
Um, and so I went up there andI was like, okay, yeah, that's
fine.
Uh and so apparently my facewas quite comical when I was
announced as the winner, where Iwas like, if there's footage of
that, that might be a goodlaugh for someone.
So I guess um the point is youjust never know.
Like, you know, I play thelotto every week.
(47:14):
I'm like, I gotta be in it towin it.
And that's how we need to lookat some of these things.
You you just gotta give it ashot.
Um, you know, the worst thingis you won't get you won't win,
but at least you'll get theexperience out of it.
And it is a very valuableexperience.
Nothing to lose.
No.
Well, thank you so much,Catherine, for um having the
(47:35):
opportunity to have thisconversation and to really sort
of broaden this discussion aboutthe three-minute thesis and
hopefully help some othergraduate researchers who are
wanting to think about this tomake that leap.
Katherine Firth (47:48):
Thank you so much, and thank you so much for
having me on uh your amazingpodcast.
I hope it keeps going fromstrength to strength and can't
wait to hear the next one uhwhen it comes out uh about your
essays and your research.
Amra Pajalic (48:04):
Thank you so much, Catherine.
Thank you for listening to myinterview with Dr.
Catherine Firth about thethree-minute thesis competition.
I will now be including mythree-minute thesis application,
and so you'll be able to listento it.
This is the one that went tothe Asia Pacific heat, and I
will also include a link to theinitial La Trobe heat, which is
(48:27):
the one that I won.
Thank you.
It was the first genocide inEurope since the Holocaust.
(48:47):
Yet for many it's a footnote ifthey've heard of it at all.
As a Bosnian whose family livedthrough this war, my
perspective is shaped by twothings, my personal background
and my creative practice as anovelist.
My research asks a simplequestion: who gets to tell the
story of Swebodsa and how shouldit be remembered?
(49:07):
One of the most powerful waysin which the story is told is
through writing, becauseliterature does not merely
reflect history, but activelyreshapes it, circulating
memories in ways that challengeofficial silences and dominant
narratives.
I study two novels bynon-Bosnian authors that deal
specifically with the Stubadotamassacre: The Unquiet Dead by
(49:30):
Osmar Zahanak Khan, and Bratzottby Leslie Ann Ryan.
Khan explores pluralismpropaganda and international
failure.
Ryan centers peacekeepers butsidelines Bosnian voices.
So I look deeper.
Into author notes andacknowledgments.
How much research did they do?
Who did they center?
Because when you write aboutgenocide, your choices shape
(49:53):
memory.
Both authors missed afundamental part of the
Stabodenica story, the urbanrule divide that shaped who
lived and who didn't in theenclave.
I'm doing this because I am awriter myself.
Using a creative practicemethodology grounded in
historical fiction, I'veaddressed the research question
by writing my novel, Time KneelsBetween Mountains Set, in
(50:17):
besieged Webeduncer during thewar.
The medium of historicalfiction allows me to address the
gap that I identified in theexisting literature, the
urban-rural divide.
I crafted a cross-class romancebetween my crime fighting Romeo
and Juliet, Rama, a young manfrom a rural village, and Selka,
an urban-born survivor, andoriginal resident of Slabonica.
(50:41):
Their love unfolds against the1995 genocide.
Like Titanic, the charactersare fictional, but the tragedy
is real.
If we don't question howSlabonica is written about,
distortion becomes truth.
Fiction isn't just made up.
It's where we remember, reckon,and rebuild.
My thesis exposesmisrepresentations and demands
(51:05):
accountability.
For my family, this genocide isnot a footnote, and through my
PhD, it has become the novel.
Thank you for tuning in toAmra's Armchair Anecdotes.
(51:27):
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to subscribe and
follow for more insights,stories, and inspiration.
From my armchair to yours,remember every story begins with
a single word.
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