October 8, 2023 • 23 mins
Company: MDRG
Owners: Sondra Brown
Year Started: 1994
Employees: 11-25 (Intermediate)
Sondra Brown built a successful market research consultancy serving clients like Microsoft and Smoothie King but her biggest leadership breakthrough came from a simple cultural misstep. In this episode, she shares how behavioral economics, scaling a team, and a six-figure leap of faith shaped the MDRG journey.
Inside this episode:
- The small mistake that completely changed her leadership style
- Why insights matter more than data (and how her team delivers them)
- The emotional weight of hiring your first team member
- How the right strategic program helped her stop “winging it” and start scaling
- Why most entrepreneurs wait too long to build culture intentionally
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast where we share real
stories of marketing agencyowners from around the world.
From the excitement of startingup the first big sale, passion,
doubt, fear, freedom, and theemotional rollercoaster of
growth, hear it all on An AgencyStory podcast.
(00:23):
An Agency Story podcast ishosted by Russel Dubree,
successful agency owner with aneight figure exit turned
business coach.
Enjoy the next agency story.
Russel (00:40):
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast.
I'm your host Russel.
On this episode, we have SondraBrown owner of MDRG, an insights
from empowering strategicallyminded professionals to impact
brands, through market researchbased out of New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Sondra explains a uniqueapproach of her agency takes in
qualitative and quantitativeresearch.
While the what of their work maybe familiar.
(01:01):
It's the how and why that setsthem apart.
This episode, delves intoSaundra's journey from a path
towards her doctorate degree,turned into a viable business
and market research.
From the early days of door todoor collection, Sondra shares
how much the industry of marketresearch has changed in the last
30 years.
Enjoy the story Welcome to theshow today, everyone.
I have Sondra Brown with MDRGwith us here today.
(01:23):
Thank you so much for joiningus, Sondra.
Sondra (01:25):
It's my pleasure.
Russel (01:26):
If you don't mind starting us off, tell us what
MDRG is and who do you do itfor?
Sondra (01:29):
MDRG is the short version of Market Dynamics
Research Group.
A couple of years ago werebranded, it was less of a
mouthful, but we're an insightsconsultancy that is comprised of
researchers and strategists wholeverage our skills to answer
questions for our clients aroundfour big buckets: branding,
(01:51):
advertising, product developmentand customer experience.
I'm the president and I'm thefounder of MDRG.
This firm started in 1994.
Russel (02:00):
That is a unique type of service line and approach that
we don't often have on the show.
Share a little more about whatthat looks like in the real
world every day.
Sondra (02:08):
The what of what we do is probably familiar to you and
to many of your listeners,meaning that we are qualitative
and quantitative researchersthat use our techniques that
answer questions that they havein those four areas that I
talked about.
But what's interesting andunique about us is the how and
the why of what we do.
(02:29):
I'm channeling my inner SimonSinek in talking about the how
and the why, but the how is ourtrademarked whole mind approach.
What that means is we haveleaned very heavily into
behavioral economics and what weknow from folks like Daniel
Kahneman, who taught us thatthere's these two systems at
play.
(02:49):
When we make decisions there'sthis system too, which is that
rational side of the brainthat's very language based, that
we like to think that we alloperate at.
What he taught us in this bodyof work is that 95 percent of
our decisions reside in thissystem 1 side of the brain.
That's the birthplace ofemotions and these automatic
(03:11):
sort of visceral reactions thatwe have.
This system 1 and system 2 isvery heavily influencing the
research designs that we bringto the table.
It's a unique approach withinthe industry, but the why is
what we get up in the morningthinking about, and that is, how
do we utilize our research jobsto help push our clients
(03:33):
businesses forward?
We're painfully aware that ourclients don't pay us for nice to
know information, and in factthat's not even why we chose
this career.
Our tools and training are themeans that we use to answer
those hard questions thatclients need answers to in order
to meet their business goals.
We always start any researchdesign with the question, what's
(03:55):
the business decision thatyou're trying to make?
That means from an internalperspective that we are fully
immersed in their business, intheir industry and in their
strategic plan before designing,much less executing, on any
research.
Who do we work with?
It's a variety of clients acrossthe US, including health systems
like Ochsner Health System.
We work with health providerslike Florida Blue.
(04:17):
We also have a significant groupof technology and communications
and entertainment clients,including Microsoft, Lumen,
AT&T, Sling, and then also CPGand retail clients, think
Smoothie King and Fastsigns.
And then a small kind offoothold in the financial
services sector.
Russel (04:36):
I love the science of behavioral economics.
How people think is just a veryinteresting construct.
We're not as rational as we'dlike to think we are.
And it's great that you're outthere doing the good work to
figure out all thoseirrationalities as far as
consumer and human behavior.
Let's go back in time for alittle bit.
What did you set out when youwere starting your career to do
and maybe a little bit about thepath before you became agency
(04:58):
owner?
Sondra (04:58):
Interestingly, I had no idea what market research was.
I was on a trajectory toresearch and teach at an
academic level, headed for a PhDprogram.
In this very serendipitousmoment, one of my fellow grad
students mentioned thatcompanies hire people like us,
and what he implied by that isthat we would get paid more if
(05:20):
we worked in the corporatesector.
Never having taken a businesscourse or a marketing course in
my academic career, I parkedmyself at Barnes and Noble for
the better part of a week andread as many books on marketing,
business and market research asI could and decided that this
(05:41):
would be a much better fit forme then an academic career, and
in large part because whileacademic research is extremely
important for our collectivebody of knowledge, it's very
slow and very rigorous.
I wanted something that was muchmore applicable to our everyday
(06:01):
life.
I ended up landing twoopportunities straight after
finishing my master's degree.
The rest is history.
The only other thing that Iwould add is I've never looked
back.
I am so fortunate that I stillabsolutely love what I do after
30 years.
I love research and I loveimpacting the trajectory of
(06:22):
brands.
It's been a great ride asserendipitous as it started.
Russel (06:26):
Wonderful.
Certainly glad to hear that.
No regrets that you didn'tbecome Dr.
Brown?
Sondra (06:30):
Nope, not at all.
Russel (06:31):
Or maybe you got your doctorate in a less official
capacity of the school of hardknocks of running a business.
Pretty much this has been yourcareer, running this business,
doing this type of work.
Sondra (06:39):
I started on the client side for about eight years after
grad school, which wasinvaluable to me to get that
client side experience beforemoving over to being a supplier
of research.
It helped me to understand whywe're doing research and how to
ground those insights intoapplication and use of that
(07:01):
data.
Russel (07:01):
As you were starting out, what was that time period
like, if nothing else evenemotionally, were you fearful,
were you concerned?
Were you worried or were you,again, happy and ecstatic to be
what you're doing?
What did that look like?
Sondra (07:11):
I would say the start of an MDRG was equally as
serendipitous as the start of mycareer.
I had six month old twins, and Iwas working and managing a
consumer insights firm for alocal health system.
I got a call from a formercolleague who asked if I wanted
(07:32):
to take on a project for a localfinancial institution.
It was an annual study that Iwas very familiar with, had run
at a bank that I had worked atstraight out of grad school.
While the timing was absolutelyridiculous from a personal
standpoint of having such youngchildren, thought this would be
a interesting way to start acompany because this many years
(07:54):
ago, it was a six figurecontract.
I put together a proposal andwon that bid.
Within two weeks wasincorporated and starting this
study and this annual project.
From there quickly added two orthree very large clients and
that was the start of MDRG.
I wasn't looking for it.
It fell in my lap, but it hasbeen the best thing that has
(08:18):
ever happened to me.
I was willing to take the risk,which is part of what it takes
to do something like this.
Again, I haven't looked back.
Russel (08:25):
Maybe even not a time for a lot of emotions in that,
as you said, happenedserendipitously on top of having
twin boys.
I imagine it was quite thewhirlwind.
How did you scale up from there?
When did the transition becomejust you and the first couple of
projects you mentioned workingon to bringing people on?
What was that process like?
Sondra (08:41):
I initially started the company out of a spare bedroom,
but I quickly realized thatwasn't necessarily going to be
sustainable, having youngchildren and a nanny walking
around the house.
I got an office in a businessincubator and with the addition
of that second client, it was alarge national utility company,
I had to hire my first employee.
(09:03):
It was more of kind of a lowerlevel assistant, but within, I
would say nine months, it wasapparent to me that I needed to
bring on another researcher.
I will say the emotion for mewas not so much starting the
business.
Was taking on employees andcommitting to salaries and
(09:23):
realizing that I was responsiblefor these other humans and their
welfare to a large extent,because I've never laid off an
employee.
I have always been very loyaland committed.
That was a huge undertaking forme.
That was probably where the realemotion came in.
Russel (09:42):
I think a lot of people speak to that, especially when
they start to see that payrollnumber grow, they're like, oh
crap.
Especially a lot ofentrepreneurs are used to doing
things on their own or havingthat ability, and at some point
that becomes, you can't just doit and make up the gaps, you
have to rely on people.
But then, as you said, you'reresponsible for those.
I think a lot of folks canempathize with that sentiment
and feeling.
Was there a moment you wereworried if this was all going to
(10:03):
work out or were you alwaysfortunate enough to have enough
clients, it was more about howdo we nurture this team that
you're talking about building,on that side of things?
Sondra (10:11):
I realize this is not every entrepreneur's story, but
I've been very fortunate to havehad a successful and profitable
business from the get go.
I will say, though, that Iapproached it for many years as
a lifestyle business.
Remember, I had no businessbackground, I had no idea what I
was doing in terms of startingor running a business, other
(10:33):
than I knew and loved research,and I knew how to execute on
research.
There did become a point intime, and it was probably 15
years into the business, where Idecided that I wanted to scale
this.
At that point, I had anopportunity to become part of
this Goldman Sachs 10,000 SmallBusinesses Program.
(10:55):
I leaned into that very heavilywhen I did that.
From there I learned what itmeant to scale and become an
entrepreneur.
There's a funny story about thefirst day of that program, you
have to get up and introduceyourself and introduce your
company, tell a little bit aboutyour story.
I stood up and I said my nameand I talked about MDRG.
(11:16):
I said, so what I want to tellyou is I have a successful
business and I have no idea why.
I am here to learn why, and Iwas not kidding.
I had no idea.
That program was the gamechanger for this company and for
me as an entrepreneur.
I learned what it meant to workon the business, not in the
(11:36):
business, cause for all thoseyears before I've been working
in the business.
I credit that program, what Icall a practical MBA, with the
trajectory that we're on today.
I've talked to a lot of peoplethat kind of done the same
program, 10,000 SmallBusinesses, and I haven't met a
person yet that didn't speakwell to that.
Russel (11:54):
Do you feel like that was more impactful for you going
through that process, having hada longer experience in the
business, or do you wish youwould have done that right out
the gate?
Sondra (12:02):
I don't think I would have been ready for it out the
gate.
I think that I had to experiencesome of the challenges that go
with trying to run a business,in that I couldn't do it all on
my own and I needed to bring onother leaders within the
organization that brought adifferent type of expertise to
our leadership equation.
(12:23):
For me, I don't think I wouldhave been ready early on.
Russel (12:26):
Good insight and takeaway there.
One of the things I'm curiousabout, change direction for a
second, is I have to imagine howyou approach your business has
changed so dramatically fromwhen you started, I think you
said 1994, to where we're attoday.
From technology to everythingelse, what has that been like?
Sondra (12:41):
Technology has been a game changer.
When I talk about the company,if I'm pitching MDRG, I say that
there were two major forces thathave changed the trajectory of
market research and MDRG.
One is technology, for sure.
Technology has changed the waythat we collect data, it changes
the way that we deliver reports.
(13:03):
Not only has it allowed us toaccess different groups of
people that we wouldn't havebeen able to access, but it's
also brought down the price andspeed of market research.
It's something that is morevaluable and useful to decision
making.
I started my career when we weredoing telephone sampling and
(13:25):
door to door data collection.
I can't tell you the last timethat we've conducted a research
study where, first of all, neverdoor to door anymore, but where
we've even collected data on thephone.
It's very rare.
Most of it is via internetpanels and other types of sample
delivery systems like that, butI've watched all of that evolve
(13:47):
so that's been the huge gamechanger.
And then this whole notion thatwe talked about at the beginning
of what do we know aboutconsumer decision making coming
out of behavioral economics.
That was the second major changethat has changed the trajectory
of research.
I think the other thing that hasbeen apparent in my tenure, in
the market research industry,and certainly as an agency owner
(14:09):
is bringing on not justresearchers to the team, but
people who have client sideexperience, even people who have
agency and consulting sideexperience.
When I say agency, likeadvertising agencies and
marketing agencies, becausethere is such a push to make
sure that you're not deliveringdata, but you're delivering
(14:30):
insights.
Oftentimes what we talk aboutourselves as, these days, is
less of a market research firmand more of an insights
consultancy.
People don't need to see all thedata.
It needs to be there as backup.
What they want to know is,what's the story that the data
told that's going to help meanswer the questions that I'm
trying to answer?
Again, those questions that aregoing to help push their
(14:51):
businesses forward.
Thinking much more strategicallythese days than when I first
started about how the data isgoing to be used and applied
within the organization.
Russel (15:02):
We went on a similar journey, and a slightly
different tangent.
It's not just, can we build agood website that's effective,
but can we make the experienceof that process get the clients
educated and bought into whatthat actually is, was maybe not
more important than the netresult, but more important in
how much they enjoyed and wouldwant to come back than, again,
the result itself sometimes itseemed, which maybe sounds like,
(15:22):
in a different realm, the samepath you've been on.
Sondra (15:24):
Exactly, and I think you talked about the whole
experience.
That's the other thing that haschanged dramatically.
Brands are competing these daysless on brand image and
awareness, those things are veryimportant.
But where they are competing anddifferentiating themselves is
around the customer experience.
That's another change has beenthe focus of the work that we do
(15:47):
around how do we enhance theexperience for the end user?
Russel (15:50):
Which I have to imagine too plays so much more into that
behavioral economics aspect of,experience is so much emotion
driven.
Added more variables to even howyou approach the research.
Sondra (15:58):
Absolutely.
We have lots of tools in ourarsenal to get at emotion
without asking direct questions.
For example, if we're testing avideo and we want to understand
not just the standard metricsthat we would select in a
standard, copy test type study,but we also want to understand
emotion.
What we can do is embed a toolinto the survey so it's seamless
(16:23):
to the respondent, but using awebcam on their computer or
their camera on their phone, wecan measure the micro expression
changes of their face as theyare exposed to the video.
Without asking them what theiremotion is, we can map those
changes to emotional changes sothat, when refining an ad or a
(16:44):
video, whatever the contentmight be, you can enhance the
desired emotions and address theones that are undesired and help
create sort of a compellingstory arc.
That's just an example of how weare collecting that type of
emotion, but again, yes, it'sbeen a huge change.
Russel (17:03):
I probably have a billion more questions I'd want
to ask, but as we start to wrapup here, I'll just have to ask
them the ones I'm most curiousabout.
As someone that's gone throughthe process of building and
growing a team, I'm justcurious, what's your kind of pro
tip for the listeners out there,something that's been successful
in that journey for you?
Sondra (17:19):
My pro tip would be that as an entrepreneur, you have to
get to a point where you realizethat you can't do all things
well, and so it's important tobring on talent within your team
that bring a different type ofexpertise to the organization
that you may not have.
(17:40):
It's not a knock on your successor even your leadership, it's
rounding out the team to makesure that the collective we is
successful.
I think so many entrepreneurs,particularly at the beginning,
think that they have to do itall and know it all, and it's
impossible.
Knowing what you don't know,gathering people around you that
you trust to execute on thosethings is hugely important.
Russel (18:03):
That's a great takeaway.
One of the interesting thingsdoing the work I've been doing
is I do a lot of personalityassessments with the agencies I
work with, and one of theresounding things I'm a big fan
of the Enneagram.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
Sondra (18:14):
Yes, I do.
Russel (18:15):
Okay.
I'd almost be willing, I couldguess your number, but the most
fascinating thing is mostentrepreneurs that I've dealt
with are threes, which is theachiever, which, that's how you
come up in the world is beingsuccessful, taking
responsibility, doing things onyour own.
At some point that verysuccessful tool for you becomes
a detriment almost when you'vegot to grow and scale your team,
so that's great advice.
Thank you for sharing that.
(18:35):
Are you in fact a three on theEnneagram?
Sondra (18:37):
I am.
Russel (18:38):
Yep.
Not surprised at all.
Where's the future of MDRGgoing?
If we're round two of thepodcast 10 years from now, what
does that look like?
Sondra (18:45):
We are certainly on a growth trajectory, but we are
also working toward rounding outthis team.
I talked about bringing onstrategists, not to compete with
agencies, but to ensure that thework we are doing is truly
actionable.
Bringing on and rounding outthat strategy team, which is the
(19:07):
activation component ofresearch.
I like to think that in 10years, that will be fully
ingrained into the organization.
I like to think that we will betruly living into this notion
that we are insightsconsultancy, not just a market
research firm.
That's what I hope.
Russel (19:24):
I'm sure you will get there.
Last big question for you, areentrepreneurs born or are they
made?
Sondra (19:29):
That's an interesting question.
My thought is that entrepreneursare born with some innate
traits, like perseverance andcalculated risk taking, even a
willingness to tackle theunknown.
However, at least from myexperience, I was made into an
entrepreneur and I would imaginethat there's many entrepreneurs
(19:50):
that have a similar story, ifthey set out to solve for a
problem or some situation thatthey want to solve for, and they
have to learn the business ofbeing an entrepreneur.
For me it was definitely Ilearned it, but I am not going
to ignore that there are certaincharacter traits that set me up
for success and I would imagineare common across all
(20:13):
entrepreneurs.
Russel (20:13):
Couldn't agree more.
Fascinating answer.
If people want to know moreabout MDRG, where can they go?
Sondra (20:19):
The first step, take a look at our website.
It's mdrginc.com.
I know that it's a tough tofollow, so it's the acronym for
Market Dynamics Research GroupInc.
dot com.
You can also look me up onLinkedIn.
I'm super active on LinkedIn,it's a great way to connect.
I will always respond to peopleif they DM me.
I love talking to people aboutwhat they do, their challenges.
(20:41):
It's part of what I love aboutbeing a researcher and so I
continue that with some of therelationships and connections I
make through there.
Russel (20:48):
There you have it folks.
No reason not to reach out andhave a conversation with Sondra.
I know you won't regret it.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Sondra.
It was great to hear your storyand all your great insights over
the course of time, and can'twait to see what the future
continues to hold for you.
Thank you again for being on theshow.
Sondra (21:02):
Thank you for having me.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode of An Agency Story
podcast where we share realstories of marketing agency
owners from around the world.
Are you interested in being aguest on the show?
Send an email topodcast@performancefaction.com.
(21:23):
An Agency Story is brought toyou by Performance Faction.
Performance Faction offersservices to help agency owners
grow their business to 5 milliondollars and more in revenue.
To learn more, visitperformancefaction.com.
I am an introvert by nature.
(21:43):
I like going to work, I likeputting my head down, I like
getting the work done.
About 15 years ago, we startedfocusing on culture within our
firm.
I hired a consultant, and afterinterviewing the team and
interviewing me, and then priorto issuing his final report he
asked me for a meeting.
What I remember about thatmeeting is that he came to me
(22:04):
and said, I need to say hello topeople in the morning.
He explained that when I walkpast them without acknowledging
their weekends, or just simplyacknowledge that them and saying
hello that they feel less than.
And it was this lightbulb momentbecause in reality I thought,
oh, if I interrupt them, it's anintrusion that would take them
away from their work, whichwould irritate me.
(22:25):
He just shook his head at me andsmiled.
While that's embarrassing and Ilook back on it, I think what
was I thinking?
It took bringing in a consultantto tell me that something as
simple as acknowledging my teammembers and seeing them as
individuals and applying thatsame level of curiosity to their
lives that I do to my researchparticipants is critical.
(22:46):
It changed the dynamic of theteam, and it sent me on this
journey of seeking culturewithin the firm.
That's my embarrassing moment,but took away a great learning
from it and it's been a gamechanger for us.
Russel (22:59):
All right.
So do you, in fact, say hi stillto everyone?
Sondra (23:02):
I do.
I ask about their weekends,their kids, all of those things.
Russel (23:07):
Fascinating.
You paid a consultant to tellyou to tell people hi.
But it sounds like it's workedout well for you, so sometimes
it is the smallest things thatmake the biggest impact.
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast where we share real
stories of marketing agencyowners from around the world.
From the excitement of startingup the first big sale, passion,
doubt, fear, freedom, and theemotional rollercoaster of
growth, hear it all on An AgencyStory podcast.
(00:23):
An Agency Story podcast ishosted by Russel Dubree,
successful agency owner with aneight figure exit turned
business coach.
Enjoy the next agency story.
Russel (00:40):
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast.
I'm your host Russel.
On this episode, we have SondraBrown owner of MDRG, an insights
from empowering strategicallyminded professionals to impact
brands, through market researchbased out of New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Sondra explains a uniqueapproach of her agency takes in
qualitative and quantitativeresearch.
While the what of their work maybe familiar.
(01:01):
It's the how and why that setsthem apart.
This episode, delves intoSaundra's journey from a path
towards her doctorate degree,turned into a viable business
and market research.
From the early days of door todoor collection, Sondra shares
how much the industry of marketresearch has changed in the last
30 years.
Enjoy the story Welcome to theshow today, everyone.
I have Sondra Brown with MDRGwith us here today.
(01:23):
Thank you so much for joiningus, Sondra.
Sondra (01:25):
It's my pleasure.
Russel (01:26):
If you don't mind starting us off, tell us what
MDRG is and who do you do itfor?
Sondra (01:29):
MDRG is the short version of Market Dynamics
Research Group.
A couple of years ago werebranded, it was less of a
mouthful, but we're an insightsconsultancy that is comprised of
researchers and strategists wholeverage our skills to answer
questions for our clients aroundfour big buckets: branding,
(01:51):
advertising, product developmentand customer experience.
I'm the president and I'm thefounder of MDRG.
This firm started in 1994.
Russel (02:00):
That is a unique type of service line and approach that
we don't often have on the show.
Share a little more about whatthat looks like in the real
world every day.
Sondra (02:08):
The what of what we do is probably familiar to you and
to many of your listeners,meaning that we are qualitative
and quantitative researchersthat use our techniques that
answer questions that they havein those four areas that I
talked about.
But what's interesting andunique about us is the how and
the why of what we do.
(02:29):
I'm channeling my inner SimonSinek in talking about the how
and the why, but the how is ourtrademarked whole mind approach.
What that means is we haveleaned very heavily into
behavioral economics and what weknow from folks like Daniel
Kahneman, who taught us thatthere's these two systems at
play.
(02:49):
When we make decisions there'sthis system too, which is that
rational side of the brainthat's very language based, that
we like to think that we alloperate at.
What he taught us in this bodyof work is that 95 percent of
our decisions reside in thissystem 1 side of the brain.
That's the birthplace ofemotions and these automatic
(03:11):
sort of visceral reactions thatwe have.
This system 1 and system 2 isvery heavily influencing the
research designs that we bringto the table.
It's a unique approach withinthe industry, but the why is
what we get up in the morningthinking about, and that is, how
do we utilize our research jobsto help push our clients
(03:33):
businesses forward?
We're painfully aware that ourclients don't pay us for nice to
know information, and in factthat's not even why we chose
this career.
Our tools and training are themeans that we use to answer
those hard questions thatclients need answers to in order
to meet their business goals.
We always start any researchdesign with the question, what's
(03:55):
the business decision thatyou're trying to make?
That means from an internalperspective that we are fully
immersed in their business, intheir industry and in their
strategic plan before designing,much less executing, on any
research.
Who do we work with?
It's a variety of clients acrossthe US, including health systems
like Ochsner Health System.
We work with health providerslike Florida Blue.
(04:17):
We also have a significant groupof technology and communications
and entertainment clients,including Microsoft, Lumen,
AT&T, Sling, and then also CPGand retail clients, think
Smoothie King and Fastsigns.
And then a small kind offoothold in the financial
services sector.
Russel (04:36):
I love the science of behavioral economics.
How people think is just a veryinteresting construct.
We're not as rational as we'dlike to think we are.
And it's great that you're outthere doing the good work to
figure out all thoseirrationalities as far as
consumer and human behavior.
Let's go back in time for alittle bit.
What did you set out when youwere starting your career to do
and maybe a little bit about thepath before you became agency
(04:58):
owner?
Sondra (04:58):
Interestingly, I had no idea what market research was.
I was on a trajectory toresearch and teach at an
academic level, headed for a PhDprogram.
In this very serendipitousmoment, one of my fellow grad
students mentioned thatcompanies hire people like us,
and what he implied by that isthat we would get paid more if
(05:20):
we worked in the corporatesector.
Never having taken a businesscourse or a marketing course in
my academic career, I parkedmyself at Barnes and Noble for
the better part of a week andread as many books on marketing,
business and market research asI could and decided that this
(05:41):
would be a much better fit forme then an academic career, and
in large part because whileacademic research is extremely
important for our collectivebody of knowledge, it's very
slow and very rigorous.
I wanted something that was muchmore applicable to our everyday
(06:01):
life.
I ended up landing twoopportunities straight after
finishing my master's degree.
The rest is history.
The only other thing that Iwould add is I've never looked
back.
I am so fortunate that I stillabsolutely love what I do after
30 years.
I love research and I loveimpacting the trajectory of
(06:22):
brands.
It's been a great ride asserendipitous as it started.
Russel (06:26):
Wonderful.
Certainly glad to hear that.
No regrets that you didn'tbecome Dr.
Brown?
Sondra (06:30):
Nope, not at all.
Russel (06:31):
Or maybe you got your doctorate in a less official
capacity of the school of hardknocks of running a business.
Pretty much this has been yourcareer, running this business,
doing this type of work.
Sondra (06:39):
I started on the client side for about eight years after
grad school, which wasinvaluable to me to get that
client side experience beforemoving over to being a supplier
of research.
It helped me to understand whywe're doing research and how to
ground those insights intoapplication and use of that
(07:01):
data.
Russel (07:01):
As you were starting out, what was that time period
like, if nothing else evenemotionally, were you fearful,
were you concerned?
Were you worried or were you,again, happy and ecstatic to be
what you're doing?
What did that look like?
Sondra (07:11):
I would say the start of an MDRG was equally as
serendipitous as the start of mycareer.
I had six month old twins, and Iwas working and managing a
consumer insights firm for alocal health system.
I got a call from a formercolleague who asked if I wanted
(07:32):
to take on a project for a localfinancial institution.
It was an annual study that Iwas very familiar with, had run
at a bank that I had worked atstraight out of grad school.
While the timing was absolutelyridiculous from a personal
standpoint of having such youngchildren, thought this would be
a interesting way to start acompany because this many years
(07:54):
ago, it was a six figurecontract.
I put together a proposal andwon that bid.
Within two weeks wasincorporated and starting this
study and this annual project.
From there quickly added two orthree very large clients and
that was the start of MDRG.
I wasn't looking for it.
It fell in my lap, but it hasbeen the best thing that has
(08:18):
ever happened to me.
I was willing to take the risk,which is part of what it takes
to do something like this.
Again, I haven't looked back.
Russel (08:25):
Maybe even not a time for a lot of emotions in that,
as you said, happenedserendipitously on top of having
twin boys.
I imagine it was quite thewhirlwind.
How did you scale up from there?
When did the transition becomejust you and the first couple of
projects you mentioned workingon to bringing people on?
What was that process like?
Sondra (08:41):
I initially started the company out of a spare bedroom,
but I quickly realized thatwasn't necessarily going to be
sustainable, having youngchildren and a nanny walking
around the house.
I got an office in a businessincubator and with the addition
of that second client, it was alarge national utility company,
I had to hire my first employee.
(09:03):
It was more of kind of a lowerlevel assistant, but within, I
would say nine months, it wasapparent to me that I needed to
bring on another researcher.
I will say the emotion for mewas not so much starting the
business.
Was taking on employees andcommitting to salaries and
(09:23):
realizing that I was responsiblefor these other humans and their
welfare to a large extent,because I've never laid off an
employee.
I have always been very loyaland committed.
That was a huge undertaking forme.
That was probably where the realemotion came in.
Russel (09:42):
I think a lot of people speak to that, especially when
they start to see that payrollnumber grow, they're like, oh
crap.
Especially a lot ofentrepreneurs are used to doing
things on their own or havingthat ability, and at some point
that becomes, you can't just doit and make up the gaps, you
have to rely on people.
But then, as you said, you'reresponsible for those.
I think a lot of folks canempathize with that sentiment
and feeling.
Was there a moment you wereworried if this was all going to
(10:03):
work out or were you alwaysfortunate enough to have enough
clients, it was more about howdo we nurture this team that
you're talking about building,on that side of things?
Sondra (10:11):
I realize this is not every entrepreneur's story, but
I've been very fortunate to havehad a successful and profitable
business from the get go.
I will say, though, that Iapproached it for many years as
a lifestyle business.
Remember, I had no businessbackground, I had no idea what I
was doing in terms of startingor running a business, other
(10:33):
than I knew and loved research,and I knew how to execute on
research.
There did become a point intime, and it was probably 15
years into the business, where Idecided that I wanted to scale
this.
At that point, I had anopportunity to become part of
this Goldman Sachs 10,000 SmallBusinesses Program.
(10:55):
I leaned into that very heavilywhen I did that.
From there I learned what itmeant to scale and become an
entrepreneur.
There's a funny story about thefirst day of that program, you
have to get up and introduceyourself and introduce your
company, tell a little bit aboutyour story.
I stood up and I said my nameand I talked about MDRG.
(11:16):
I said, so what I want to tellyou is I have a successful
business and I have no idea why.
I am here to learn why, and Iwas not kidding.
I had no idea.
That program was the gamechanger for this company and for
me as an entrepreneur.
I learned what it meant to workon the business, not in the
(11:36):
business, cause for all thoseyears before I've been working
in the business.
I credit that program, what Icall a practical MBA, with the
trajectory that we're on today.
I've talked to a lot of peoplethat kind of done the same
program, 10,000 SmallBusinesses, and I haven't met a
person yet that didn't speakwell to that.
Russel (11:54):
Do you feel like that was more impactful for you going
through that process, having hada longer experience in the
business, or do you wish youwould have done that right out
the gate?
Sondra (12:02):
I don't think I would have been ready for it out the
gate.
I think that I had to experiencesome of the challenges that go
with trying to run a business,in that I couldn't do it all on
my own and I needed to bring onother leaders within the
organization that brought adifferent type of expertise to
our leadership equation.
(12:23):
For me, I don't think I wouldhave been ready early on.
Russel (12:26):
Good insight and takeaway there.
One of the things I'm curiousabout, change direction for a
second, is I have to imagine howyou approach your business has
changed so dramatically fromwhen you started, I think you
said 1994, to where we're attoday.
From technology to everythingelse, what has that been like?
Sondra (12:41):
Technology has been a game changer.
When I talk about the company,if I'm pitching MDRG, I say that
there were two major forces thathave changed the trajectory of
market research and MDRG.
One is technology, for sure.
Technology has changed the waythat we collect data, it changes
the way that we deliver reports.
(13:03):
Not only has it allowed us toaccess different groups of
people that we wouldn't havebeen able to access, but it's
also brought down the price andspeed of market research.
It's something that is morevaluable and useful to decision
making.
I started my career when we weredoing telephone sampling and
(13:25):
door to door data collection.
I can't tell you the last timethat we've conducted a research
study where, first of all, neverdoor to door anymore, but where
we've even collected data on thephone.
It's very rare.
Most of it is via internetpanels and other types of sample
delivery systems like that, butI've watched all of that evolve
(13:47):
so that's been the huge gamechanger.
And then this whole notion thatwe talked about at the beginning
of what do we know aboutconsumer decision making coming
out of behavioral economics.
That was the second major changethat has changed the trajectory
of research.
I think the other thing that hasbeen apparent in my tenure, in
the market research industry,and certainly as an agency owner
(14:09):
is bringing on not justresearchers to the team, but
people who have client sideexperience, even people who have
agency and consulting sideexperience.
When I say agency, likeadvertising agencies and
marketing agencies, becausethere is such a push to make
sure that you're not deliveringdata, but you're delivering
(14:30):
insights.
Oftentimes what we talk aboutourselves as, these days, is
less of a market research firmand more of an insights
consultancy.
People don't need to see all thedata.
It needs to be there as backup.
What they want to know is,what's the story that the data
told that's going to help meanswer the questions that I'm
trying to answer?
Again, those questions that aregoing to help push their
(14:51):
businesses forward.
Thinking much more strategicallythese days than when I first
started about how the data isgoing to be used and applied
within the organization.
Russel (15:02):
We went on a similar journey, and a slightly
different tangent.
It's not just, can we build agood website that's effective,
but can we make the experienceof that process get the clients
educated and bought into whatthat actually is, was maybe not
more important than the netresult, but more important in
how much they enjoyed and wouldwant to come back than, again,
the result itself sometimes itseemed, which maybe sounds like,
(15:22):
in a different realm, the samepath you've been on.
Sondra (15:24):
Exactly, and I think you talked about the whole
experience.
That's the other thing that haschanged dramatically.
Brands are competing these daysless on brand image and
awareness, those things are veryimportant.
But where they are competing anddifferentiating themselves is
around the customer experience.
That's another change has beenthe focus of the work that we do
(15:47):
around how do we enhance theexperience for the end user?
Russel (15:50):
Which I have to imagine too plays so much more into that
behavioral economics aspect of,experience is so much emotion
driven.
Added more variables to even howyou approach the research.
Sondra (15:58):
Absolutely.
We have lots of tools in ourarsenal to get at emotion
without asking direct questions.
For example, if we're testing avideo and we want to understand
not just the standard metricsthat we would select in a
standard, copy test type study,but we also want to understand
emotion.
What we can do is embed a toolinto the survey so it's seamless
(16:23):
to the respondent, but using awebcam on their computer or
their camera on their phone, wecan measure the micro expression
changes of their face as theyare exposed to the video.
Without asking them what theiremotion is, we can map those
changes to emotional changes sothat, when refining an ad or a
(16:44):
video, whatever the contentmight be, you can enhance the
desired emotions and address theones that are undesired and help
create sort of a compellingstory arc.
That's just an example of how weare collecting that type of
emotion, but again, yes, it'sbeen a huge change.
Russel (17:03):
I probably have a billion more questions I'd want
to ask, but as we start to wrapup here, I'll just have to ask
them the ones I'm most curiousabout.
As someone that's gone throughthe process of building and
growing a team, I'm justcurious, what's your kind of pro
tip for the listeners out there,something that's been successful
in that journey for you?
Sondra (17:19):
My pro tip would be that as an entrepreneur, you have to
get to a point where you realizethat you can't do all things
well, and so it's important tobring on talent within your team
that bring a different type ofexpertise to the organization
that you may not have.
(17:40):
It's not a knock on your successor even your leadership, it's
rounding out the team to makesure that the collective we is
successful.
I think so many entrepreneurs,particularly at the beginning,
think that they have to do itall and know it all, and it's
impossible.
Knowing what you don't know,gathering people around you that
you trust to execute on thosethings is hugely important.
Russel (18:03):
That's a great takeaway.
One of the interesting thingsdoing the work I've been doing
is I do a lot of personalityassessments with the agencies I
work with, and one of theresounding things I'm a big fan
of the Enneagram.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
Sondra (18:14):
Yes, I do.
Russel (18:15):
Okay.
I'd almost be willing, I couldguess your number, but the most
fascinating thing is mostentrepreneurs that I've dealt
with are threes, which is theachiever, which, that's how you
come up in the world is beingsuccessful, taking
responsibility, doing things onyour own.
At some point that verysuccessful tool for you becomes
a detriment almost when you'vegot to grow and scale your team,
so that's great advice.
Thank you for sharing that.
(18:35):
Are you in fact a three on theEnneagram?
Sondra (18:37):
I am.
Russel (18:38):
Yep.
Not surprised at all.
Where's the future of MDRGgoing?
If we're round two of thepodcast 10 years from now, what
does that look like?
Sondra (18:45):
We are certainly on a growth trajectory, but we are
also working toward rounding outthis team.
I talked about bringing onstrategists, not to compete with
agencies, but to ensure that thework we are doing is truly
actionable.
Bringing on and rounding outthat strategy team, which is the
(19:07):
activation component ofresearch.
I like to think that in 10years, that will be fully
ingrained into the organization.
I like to think that we will betruly living into this notion
that we are insightsconsultancy, not just a market
research firm.
That's what I hope.
Russel (19:24):
I'm sure you will get there.
Last big question for you, areentrepreneurs born or are they
made?
Sondra (19:29):
That's an interesting question.
My thought is that entrepreneursare born with some innate
traits, like perseverance andcalculated risk taking, even a
willingness to tackle theunknown.
However, at least from myexperience, I was made into an
entrepreneur and I would imaginethat there's many entrepreneurs
(19:50):
that have a similar story, ifthey set out to solve for a
problem or some situation thatthey want to solve for, and they
have to learn the business ofbeing an entrepreneur.
For me it was definitely Ilearned it, but I am not going
to ignore that there are certaincharacter traits that set me up
for success and I would imagineare common across all
(20:13):
entrepreneurs.
Russel (20:13):
Couldn't agree more.
Fascinating answer.
If people want to know moreabout MDRG, where can they go?
Sondra (20:19):
The first step, take a look at our website.
It's mdrginc.com.
I know that it's a tough tofollow, so it's the acronym for
Market Dynamics Research GroupInc.
dot com.
You can also look me up onLinkedIn.
I'm super active on LinkedIn,it's a great way to connect.
I will always respond to peopleif they DM me.
I love talking to people aboutwhat they do, their challenges.
(20:41):
It's part of what I love aboutbeing a researcher and so I
continue that with some of therelationships and connections I
make through there.
Russel (20:48):
There you have it folks.
No reason not to reach out andhave a conversation with Sondra.
I know you won't regret it.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Sondra.
It was great to hear your storyand all your great insights over
the course of time, and can'twait to see what the future
continues to hold for you.
Thank you again for being on theshow.
Sondra (21:02):
Thank you for having me.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode of An Agency Story
podcast where we share realstories of marketing agency
owners from around the world.
Are you interested in being aguest on the show?
Send an email topodcast@performancefaction.com.
(21:23):
An Agency Story is brought toyou by Performance Faction.
Performance Faction offersservices to help agency owners
grow their business to 5 milliondollars and more in revenue.
To learn more, visitperformancefaction.com.
I am an introvert by nature.
(21:43):
I like going to work, I likeputting my head down, I like
getting the work done.
About 15 years ago, we startedfocusing on culture within our
firm.
I hired a consultant, and afterinterviewing the team and
interviewing me, and then priorto issuing his final report he
asked me for a meeting.
What I remember about thatmeeting is that he came to me
(22:04):
and said, I need to say hello topeople in the morning.
He explained that when I walkpast them without acknowledging
their weekends, or just simplyacknowledge that them and saying
hello that they feel less than.
And it was this lightbulb momentbecause in reality I thought,
oh, if I interrupt them, it's anintrusion that would take them
away from their work, whichwould irritate me.
(22:25):
He just shook his head at me andsmiled.
While that's embarrassing and Ilook back on it, I think what
was I thinking?
It took bringing in a consultantto tell me that something as
simple as acknowledging my teammembers and seeing them as
individuals and applying thatsame level of curiosity to their
lives that I do to my researchparticipants is critical.
(22:46):
It changed the dynamic of theteam, and it sent me on this
journey of seeking culturewithin the firm.
That's my embarrassing moment,but took away a great learning
from it and it's been a gamechanger for us.
Russel (22:59):
All right.
So do you, in fact, say hi stillto everyone?
Sondra (23:02):
I do.
I ask about their weekends,their kids, all of those things.
Russel (23:07):
Fascinating.
You paid a consultant to tellyou to tell people hi.
But it sounds like it's workedout well for you, so sometimes
it is the smallest things thatmake the biggest impact.
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