October 26, 2025 • 29 mins
What happens when a lifelong developer decides to step out from behind the code and build something of his own? In this episode, Piotr Nowak, founder of Nopio, shares his journey from being fired from a comfortable job to creating an international digital agency based in Poland. He reveals how embracing simplicity, culture, and clear purpose helped him transform complex projects into meaningful, lasting partnerships.
Key Takeaways
- Why getting himself fired became the best catalyst for Piotr’s entrepreneurial journey
- How simplifying services led to stronger results and happier clients
- The lessons learned from running a Poland-based agency serving U.S. businesses
Hear details for an agency planning workshop event November 10th and 11th 2025. Visit anagencystory.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Russel (00:01):
Welcome to An Agency Story Podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turn business coach, soldmy agency and now helps agency
leaders create their idealbusiness.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show today,everyone.
I have Peter Novak with Nopioall the way from Krakow, Poland
here with today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show, Peter.
Peter (00:40):
Pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Russel (00:43):
Well, the pleasure is all mine.
If you don't mind, start us off.
What does Nopio do and who doyou do it for?
Peter (00:50):
Well.
We call ourself a turnkeydigital agency.
So we're basically, um,supporting forward thinking
companies with, uh, what we liketo call world class development
and design services andsolutions.
So, uh, explaining that we arecreating marketing websites for
(01:10):
businesses all over the placeand our.
What we call why is we reallywanna stop marketing marketers
from suffering.
So, you know, a lot of them haveso much issues working with
websites.
They need to, they need to editcontent on and basically, you
know, use them every day.
(01:31):
Whatever we do, we have them inmind.
We want them to be happy andreally not.
Struggling with the tools.
Russel (01:38):
We'll dive in more into the secret sauce on how you ease
the pain of marketers, but goback in the time machine, what
was young Peter thinking he wasgonna be when he grew up?
Peter (01:49):
Oh, I was a hundred percent developer.
I was coding.
I started when I was like.
And I was like, yep, that's whatthey're gonna be doing until the
end of the edit.
Oh man, I was wrong.
So, yeah, that, that was, thatwas when I started.
It took some considerable workto actually get to the point
(02:09):
when I was doing thisprofessionally.
Uh, but it's, it's gettingboring really fast.
You know, when you're doing thisand you're coding every day
after like five years or so,you're still getting like.
Same stuff all over the, allover again.
So, uh, I discovered I reallyliked dealing with clients.
(02:32):
I prefer to actually, you know,guide the clients through what
they want because they not, theyoften don't really know what
they want.
They have the vague idea wherethey're going.
So that's where I transferredfrom being just a developer to
first like technical manager andthen more like client
relationship manager.
(02:52):
Still technical.
Yeah.
This is, this was still likeproduct owners thing on the, on
the development side.
And then, you know, I just gotlike, okay, I'm doing this for
someone else.
I always are not alwaysaligning.
I have my own, ID ask, it's timeto, you know, put my money where
my mouth is.
Yeah.
And be like, yep, I can do it.
So that was there.
Overall story.
(03:12):
This, this was like wild ride.
I can tell you I was alwayslike, um, more focused on
technology and like soft skills,math.
Why would you need doubt?
So you actually transfer fromthis like hardcore coder to
being like, uh, you know, clientoriented was, was a challenge
for someone who never reallythought this is important.
Russel (03:35):
Well, it sounds like you were pretty, pretty good at it
and uh, you know, I imaginepeople are sitting around how
different is, is what soundslike a very similar path that a
lot of of us in the US took, didyou go to university for coding
or did you just go straight intothe corporate world?
Right out of high school?
Peter (03:53):
Yeah, I actually, I, I started my studies with
environmental science, which wasmore of like water engineering,
like dams and stuff like this.
But this was quickly like, no,that's not for me.
Uh, so I transferred myself toit in environmental engineering.
So that is my Master's ofScience.
Uh.
(04:14):
Pretty boring stuff still, butyou know, it's kind of teaching
you how to code.
It's most more like getting thedegree.
For me, I was really self-taughtand spent so much time with
computers.
Technological point of view,quite less, yeah.
More of like organization andgetting up to, to the standards
of like actually working class.
So that was, that was one,right.
(04:35):
Anyway.
Russel (04:36):
Okay.
And so once you decided you, youdidn't wanna be doing this or
someone else wanted to startdoing it for yourself, was it
just quitting your job andstarting your business?
Or how did that evolution looklike?
Peter (04:46):
I got myself fired.
I got myself fired.
I love it.
Yeah, it's, you know, I, I waspretty high in the ranks of the,
of the previous company I wasworking in.
But then, you know, it waspretty obvious that my views on
what I wanna do and how, where Iwould like the company to be
going wasn't really alignedwith, uh, with the owners.
(05:06):
So we were talking about thisfor some time.
They knew what I had in my plansand, you know, one day it was
like.
My ideas were just a bit toomuch.
So this was like, hey, best topathway.
So still at good terms.
So nothing really, you know,wrong there, but you know, that
gives you the kick basically.
(05:27):
So some people, I was supercomfortable in that, in that
job, so I was like, yep, I stillhave some time.
I have things to learn.
So that was the push I needed toactually be like, okay, it is
time I need to do it.
Russel (05:38):
Okay.
And I mean, again, I, you know,you don't have the comparable in
the and from the US perspective,but is starting a business just
signing up kind of how we do inthe US or is there anything
different as far as actuallygetting your business up and
running?
Peter (05:53):
Uh, it's actually not that different because Poland
was terrible bureaucracy wisepreviously, but when I was
starting it was already like asingle window.
You just go there.
Big difference between the USand Poland, I think if nothing
change in the US you don't needto pay your social security when
you're not having an income.
(06:14):
And in Poland, when you have anactive business, they don't
really care.
You still need to pay.
So when you have a Right,especially when you're starting,
they have a program wherethere's like a, you need to pay
less for two years, but whenyou're struggling those like
first year, months or years, youcan be really like, oh my god,
this, you need to pay my, youknow, health tax.
Yeah.
Russel (06:35):
Okay.
Uh, very interesting.
And so how did you get yourfirst set of clients?
What did that look like?
Peter (06:41):
Uh, first I, because I was working with my previous
employer, which was a US basedcompany.
I, you know, over the course ofyears, I worked there for like
eight years.
Basically.
I was still on the, on theuniversity when I started
working them on third year.
So I knew a bunch of peoplethere and you know when you're
starting, you start startingsmall.
So my previous employer did notreally have anything against,
(07:04):
they weren't interested in thekind of jobs I was taking as
myself.
And this obviously helps you tobuild the referrals base'cause
people are happy with whatyou're doing.
They knew me, they liked workingwith me in a lot of cases.
They, you know, asked for mewhile working with my kids
employer.
So I was like.
I had a good standing with themand you know, there wasn't
competing, we weren't doing thesame stuff as there as my
(07:26):
previous boss, so it's fine.
Russel (07:28):
Was there a moment you encountered as you're kind of in
the early stage of you're like,oh crap, maybe I shouldn't have
done this, or this was not thebest decision, or was it all
roses and sunshine?
Peter (07:38):
No, because we parted ways in like October.
So sometime in January,February, the next year, I got
my tax slip from my previousjob.
And I looked on my income from,you know, the first 10 months of
the previous year.
And then the month I, when Istarted the business, like man.
(08:02):
It still be some considerabletime to actually get back to the
way of earning when I was, whenI was employed.
So that was like, I was a bit ofa shocker because everyone's
like, oh my God, I gonna get somany clients and it's gonna be
all rose and flowers.
But in the reality, it actuallytakes time to get that.
Through output.
You need to, to build the sameincome when you have, you know,
(08:22):
when you have a salary running,um, five people team or 10
people team.
So that's, uh, that was the hardlesson.
Fortunately back then, I didn'treally have a lot of, you know,
fixed expenses.
I couldn't, uh, I couldn'tmanage.
So that was, that was fortunate.
Okay.
Russel (08:38):
And how long did it take you to get to a turning point
where you're like, all right,I've got this.
Life is good, I'm not stressed,or have you arrived at that
point yet?
Peter (08:49):
There are multiple points like this, I think because ba
basically where we are, right?
Uh, where we're right now we areafter a pivot in business.
So when we originally started,this was a software house and we
were doing group Beyond Rail andbeyond plus, plus React, uh, js,
uh, web applications.
(09:09):
And this was extremelystressful, really, like this was
not an like.
With those, you do a singlemistake on the planning phase or
someone does something stupid onthe development and you can be,
you know, from profitable tounder the line.
So yes, we were making the need,but there was so much risk.
I was really like stressed allthe time.
(09:31):
So we grown up like almost 20people.
We were doing relatively well.
But you know, the next bad luckis just.
Behind the corner and in Polandwhen we actually started, when I
actually started my own, itbecame the moment where salaries
in Nike just exploded.
You know, when I was stillworking with Profu employer, you
(09:54):
could get a really good tenuredeveloper for probably
equivalent of two and half,maybe two or something like that
per month.
Yeah.
And that was like a really highsalary for.
But you know, right now you'reprobably not gonna be able to
(10:14):
find someone for like eight to10 if you want.
Really someone, someone likereally senior.
So for policy reality, this waslike ridiculous for a small team
because you can't really affordto have anyone on a bench.
And if you don't have anyone ona bench, you can really take an
project because you don't havethe resources.
So that's like, uh, the citycould closes.
Yeah.
We didn't want to get any loansto run the business.
(10:35):
So this was like, okay, this isreally shaping to be
problematic.
But in the meantime, so thesewere the people that I was
getting more stress, stress,stress, stress.
Because like I knew even if I doexceptionally well, there is
something that's gonna go wrong.
So this was the moment where alot of our clients that we more
corporate clients, started to belike, Hey, we, the website built
(10:58):
for this product as well.
Can you help us?
How hard can it be?
And like there, there'sWordPress on the market.
Um, we tested it previously, Ihated it with passion, but after
version like four or something,three, maybe after three, it
became actually a useful tool ifyou wanted to do this more
professionally.
And in most cases, those were,you know, bigger clients like
(11:20):
for example, port Novelli, whichwas, they did most of their
design in-house and they werejust like, Hey, we need a really
trusted technology partner to dothis the right way.
And after some time it becameobvious that salaries on
WordPress developers areactually way lower than the rack
will be Java, whatever you thename there.
(11:43):
The work is actually way easierthere is because there isn't
really that many things that cango wrong on the WordPress side,
maybe integrations, but ingeneral those are less complex
projects.
But the fun is there.
The clients are awesome becausethose are typically marketing
people who are fun to be in mostcases.
So at this stage, one of theclients came and I met Nick, my
(12:07):
current business partner, and hewas the designer for the startup
he was working for at the time.
And so suddenly we went frombeing a really 30, uh,
technology partner to having,uh, design and technology.
Design and develop on that that.
(12:32):
Foundation for what we are rightnow.
Because right now we like thisconsolidated hybrid 50 50 design
technology.
We wanna be equally good at boththose things.
People love it because they geta tool that they can actually
use that works well, but it'salso beautiful and beautifully
designed so.
Also perfect.
Uh, over time we decided to dookay, we need to do content
(12:53):
because a lot of people werecoming to us and they really
cannot do anything with theirown content.
People cannot write for web, sowe found people with, they're
not partners in the company perse, but with working with them
pretty exclusively.
So those are our copystrategists, copywriters, and we
also have very good resource forSEO, so we can actually do
(13:14):
pretty much the whole thing.
Except for like regularmarketing work where you need to
do ads and stuff.
This is something we're notexactly sure what.
Russel (13:23):
Fascinating.
That was lengthy.
Yeah.
No worries at all.
It's a very cool part of yourstory, and as I understand it, a
lot of your clients or most ofyour clients are actually based
in the us.
Is that correct?
Peter (13:34):
Yes.
Uh, we're not like limitingourselves to be US only, but
that's the market I'm killing.
I think most attached to, I knowit the best.
I spent most of my, my careerworking with American clients.
But, uh, we do work with peoplein Canada.
We work with people in UnitedKingdom, Germany, all over the
place will be, so we have clientthat is out of China, Hal
(13:57):
German.
Yes.
We, we can do it.
Uh, we work with some clients inSwitzerland.
Yeah.
Really all over the place.
It's just.
Because we have so much to dowith the US it's probably like
85% of our business right now.
Russel (14:11):
So do you have to work like night hours a lot because
of the time zone differences orhow do you manage that?
Peter (14:18):
Actually, not really Well, except for recording.
Um, no, actually it works reallywell because when we are in
Poland, we're between the NewYork and Poland, theres sea sour
difference.
There's nine hours between, uh,California and Poland.
So what we tend to do is do anwork intensive time in the
(14:39):
mornings, and then we havemeeting times the afternoons,
and most of our clients arereally understanding that we are
in a different time zone.
So they do tend to schedule themeetings with us early in their
days.
So we typically done by 6:00 PMSo that's, that's not, yeah.
Russel (14:56):
You're probably incentivizing a lot of people
out there to maybe from thatbasis alone, to actually go work
more internationally so you canget those long periods of
intense working time and thewhole day is now open for
meetings.
I could see a real benefit fromthat.
Um, good strategy there.
Yeah, good strategy there,Peter.
Um, well, I mean, me personally,I imagine a lot of people asking
(15:16):
given you have a lot ofexperience with American
companies, what's the biggestdifference between how you do
business in Poland and how we dobusiness in the us?
That's
Peter (15:26):
gonna sound funny, but you guys are more honest.
Russel (15:29):
Okay.
So
Peter (15:30):
for example, I don't think we ever had a client that
wasn't willing to pay theirbills.
And in Poland it's pretty commonthat doing business here is
really like a bit of a wildwest.
So for example, in the US youcan send someone an email that
you agree to a contract.
(15:53):
That's actually a valid contractsign in.
Even in the court.
Yeah.
In Poland, if it's notnotarized, it's pretty much
invalid.
You can just throw it away.
Wow.
So a lot of people are usinglike this, you know, to get an
advantage of, of other people.
So I'm not too fond of doingbusiness in Poland and a lot of
my friends are really likestruggling with it.
(16:13):
Especially if you're a smallplayer, you can't really afford
to, you know, put someonethrough court because obviously
this is expensive here as wellas it's in the us.
So, yeah, I think that's thebiggest difference.
And in Poland, you just loveyour bureaucracy.
Like we are still, if you wantto have a contract, needs to be
in paper, it needs to bestamped.
(16:34):
I remember the first time, thefirst time I got my, uh, in
Europe we have VT, uh, tax.
So basically that's, that's atax that you're paying on all
the services that are donebetween, uh, business and
client.
It's pretty much on everything.
Even if you're a business payingbusiness in Forland, you need to
pay VAT tax and then you can getreturn of that.
(16:58):
So when we are doing business inthe us, you guys are not paying
VAT on our invoices, but we'repaying VAT on everything else.
So we need to get tax return,and every time we get tax
return, we get.
By s our version of irs.
Yeah.
So, so the first time they didthat, they were like, we need to
(17:19):
have your contracts with yourclients.
I'm like, sure.
Here they're, and obviouslythere's a pdf.
No, we need your contract andthey need to be stumped by the
client.
Uh, you're in the us So when didyou have a stump for your
business?
Russel (17:36):
Uh,
Peter (17:36):
probably not.
I
Russel (17:37):
mean, well, a lot of times, anytime you sign like
someone with a bank or somethinglike that, they'll require like
a notarization.
But usually most business tobusiness dealings.
In fact, probably non-bankingrelated.
I think the only time was when Iactually sold the business.
I think we had to have somethingnotarized then, if I remember
correctly.
Peter (17:52):
And you have this like stump that is pressed into the
paper.
Yeah, and we just have thoselike ink that is, you know, the
name and the signature andstuff.
This is stupid.
I think that's similar.
Similar
Russel (18:03):
here.
Peter (18:05):
So it took us a quarter to explain that the businesses
we are doing business with donot have that.
And yeah, Polish governmentlevel was like, how can they not
have it?
Yeah.
That was ridiculous that, that,that was like a fun ride.
But now it's actually like I, Ithink they learned a lesson.
It's not a big deal right now.
They still control us likequite.
Russel (18:26):
Government's always gotta make themselves difficult,
it sounds like in the US and um,and Poland, just, they find
different ways to do it, itsounds like.
Peter (18:35):
Yeah.
There are all the differences.
Like you have way easier law interms of spending company money.
You can, uh, put a lot of thingsin company expenses.
You're not like crazy with theamount in Poland, we had
situations when the, you know,governmental check was like,
you're using too much sugar inthe office.
Like, why would you care?
(18:57):
I mean, like, this is like, youknow,$10 a month.
Come on.
Like, are you, you're wastingyour time.
Okay.
All right.
So yeah, this, this is a bitridiculous sometimes.
Good.
I'm not thinking about this.
Russel (19:09):
Maybe our US listeners won't complain so much now when
they hear people like tocomplain about taxes and all
that stuff here, so, uh, just soyou folks out there know, um,
what's your big goal with thebusiness?
What's the, what's the futurelook like for you and Nopio?
Peter (19:25):
Well, we wanna grow, basically.
We wanna get bigger.
More interesting clients.
That's, I think, goal for everyagency.
I think somewhere in the longerfuture we would like to be able
to sell the business, but rightnow there isn't really any drive
towards this.
We are still treating whateverwe're doing.
We're still treating it as a bitstrapping pace, like we, yeah,
(19:48):
experimenting with processes,making sure everything is as set
up as possible.
Uh, we constantly innovators,we, we like cannot really live
long enough with.
This is good enough.
Now we just wanna improve that.
So we're just constantly havingfun with like getting our
processes in internally.
Because with agencies like this,the biggest issue is that you
(20:09):
have friction point between thedesign and development.
So in a lot of cases you areworking either with design
agency or the technology agency,and they need to hand off the
design to the technology.
And the tech was not involved inthe design.
Sometimes there's like, guys,what the heck did you do this?
Oh, so then it's like.
We are actually very good atlimiting this friction point
(20:32):
because obviously we have theteams that are working
constantly together.
So that's pretty muchnonexisting.
We're super happy with how itworks, but there is always
things to improve.
So ideally we want this to workas a one organism.
So basically that is, well, ofcourse, to support the designers
designer, understand what the,the developers need, and that's,
(20:53):
that's what we're trying to, toachieve in the long run.
Russel (20:56):
So obviously you, you had experience in the corporate
role and managing a team andemployees, uh, on the US side,
and then now you've, you'veobviously grown your team to a
decent size there in Poland.
What is that specific part ofthe ownership experience
different, uh, in terms ofmanaging a team and from the US
to Poland?
Peter (21:14):
Well, I was always managing team using Poland in
general, but he was an Americancompany.
The big difference I can tellyou from what I see is that in
the US people are very used toworking on the short contracts
or like non-permanent workagreements, how we would call
them.
And in Poland everyone areexpecting to be full-time
(21:34):
employee and for pretty muchinfinite terms.
So basically you sign a contractand it doesn't really have an
expiration date.
And this is mostly because thebanking system requires you have
that if you want to get amortgage or another loan.
So it's like, you know this, thesystem is driving people into
that.
Yeah.
Russel (21:54):
Mm-hmm.
Peter (21:55):
But in general, running teams, uh, I think people just
like are less likely to changejobs, especially like a bit
older people in Poland.
So even younger.
My feeling is that looking athow the businesses we are
working with in the US operateand what's the, uh, rotation of
(22:17):
the staff there.
Uh, I think the exchange ofstaff is way lower in Poland
than that is.
In the US people are less likelyto change job.
You really need to get undertheir skin to make them leave or
you know, you don't wanna paythem more or stuff, stuff like
that.
But in general, this is not,this is not our rational game.
It's changing, but it's stillnot the same and people are
(22:37):
moving less.
In Poland, you typically wannaown the property.
So when you own the apartment,you don't really wanna move the
other side of the country, whichis Yeah.
Even though it's, you know, ourcountry is like one of your
states.
So that's, that's what,
Russel (22:51):
yeah.
Interesting.
And are you fully remote or doyou have an office?
What is, what is the workenvironment?
We're fully
Peter (22:57):
remote okay's.
Fully remote.
Have you always
Russel (22:59):
been?
Peter (23:00):
No.
I was a hardcore, we need to bein the office and then the
pandemic happened.
I, I think, learned my lesson.
We haven't lost anyproductivity.
You know, we are stillrelatively small team, so it's
kind of hard to hide not doingyour job.
I'm assuming when you would havelike 200 people, that's gonna be
(23:21):
a bigger problem than it is forus.
But also, like, you're notlimited to hiring the high
competitive environment anymore.
You just can get people from allover the place.
So that's, that's really goodfor us.
Right.
Russel (23:35):
Well, my net takeaway then aside for some legality and
some tax things, that running anagency in Poland is pretty much
the same as it is here in theStates, um, for the most part.
There's so many other trendsthat are different between the
US and different Europeancountries that but business
seems very, very similar.
Peter (23:54):
Keep in mind, this may be because I was taught by the
American company, so maybe Ilife very similarly to what it
was.
Very true.
Russel (24:04):
Well, I could probably ask you a hundred more
questions, but uh, time isrunning out, but maybe the, one
of the last big questions I'llask for you is, are
entrepreneurs born or are theymade.
Peter (24:16):
I think a little bit of both.
So I think it's way easier forsomeone to become an
entrepreneur if they have thefiring them, like basically this
like internal push to do morethan just working for someone
else.
Uh, a bit of a self-starter aswell would be needed to do it
because no one is telling youwhat to do when you're, when
(24:38):
you're on your own.
I think it's also an environmentthat shapes us as entrepreneurs.
You know, uh, sometimes you seethat, I told you before, like I
felt that I needed the push toactually go with my, with my
own, and I'm pretty good atstarting.
So I think there's a little bitof both environment and how you
(24:59):
being born and how you're beingbrought up as well.
You know, I was always like.
I'm single parent, just mother.
So she wasn't really giving meeverything I wanted.
She, by, by design, this was herway of bringing me up, which was
fine because I always needed todo a little bit of
entrepreneurship to get a littlebit more out of my life.
(25:21):
So that's, that's why I'mcalling this, uh, you know,
bringing someone up as the moreentrepreneurial than not.
Russel (25:28):
Yeah.
It's very interesting and a anda lot of folks that I've talked
to, say a similar thing or ifyou dig deep into their story a
little bit, that they had alittle bit of type of hardship.
Whether it just be kind of a, asyou said, a single mother
situation where it created thiswant to the need, want or need
of something a little more, or.
Uh, I've had cases where parentsdied or, or similar type
(25:48):
situations that created thislittle bit of a burning desire,
uh, as kind of being a keyingredient in a, in a lot of
folks that ultimately becameentrepreneurs.
So I, I found that to be a very,very fascinating scenario.
But, thank you for sharing that.
Well, if people wanna know moreabout Nopio, where can they go?
Peter (26:06):
Well, obviously our website com.
Um.
Or just ping me on LinkedIn.
We can probably drop my LinkedInprofile into the description if
you, if you absolutely can dothat.
Yeah, that's two good places.
Perfect.
Russel (26:21):
And that's NOPI o.com.
Reach out to Peter on LinkedIn.
It's not actually Peter, for thefolks at home you can share, how
do you say your name in Polish?
It's ot.
There you go.
You get it straight from Peterhimself.
Well thank you so much for beingon the show today, Peter.
It's great pleasure.
Thank you for sharing all yourinsights from and, and staying
(26:42):
up so late there in Poland to bea guest on the show.
It was an absolute pleasure.
Peter (26:48):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me.
This was absolute pleasure.
Russel (26:51):
Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where
every story helps you write yourown, subscribe, share, and join
us again for more real stories,lessons learned, and
breakthroughs ahead.
What's next?
You'll wanna visitanagencystory.com/podcast and
follow us on Instagram at@anagencystory for the latest
updates.
Peter (27:13):
We work with a lot of companies that are.
Midlevel established, you know,like probably between hundred 50
and 200 people in the, in thestaff.
And they're at the stage wherethey are fairly self-conscious
about like sharing access tostaff.
And our policy is that if webuild something for you, we'd
happy to deploy it for you toyour hosting or help your team
(27:36):
and stuff like that.
So for me, it's alwaysentertaining when I'm like, Hey,
you know, if you want us to helpyou with setting up your
website, get us access to yourDNS system, we're gonna point it
to the right records and it'sgonna be all like, worked.
Well, we know what we're doing.
No, no, no.
We have a guy that is doing thisfor us, like forever and it's
always gonna be like he, youjust sent him what you need and
(27:59):
it's gonna be okay.
And then a few times we're justsending them, like, change those
records, put the a records name,record, whatever there is.
And I'm getting a call.
Our email doesn't work.
What happened?
The guy who knew who he wasdoing deleted all the records on
the DNS except the ones we senthim.
It's like, okay.
(28:21):
Yeah, I'm not sure why.
Just like that.
It's obviously DNS like tellingthis with anyone's risking
because someone can just takeover your domain and you can't
really do much about that backthen.
But yeah, this is always funnythat they do have trusted
people.
Russel (28:38):
Yeah.
I can't say how many times we'verun into that exact same issue.
Welcome to An Agency Story Podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turn business coach, soldmy agency and now helps agency
leaders create their idealbusiness.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show today,everyone.
I have Peter Novak with Nopioall the way from Krakow, Poland
here with today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show, Peter.
Peter (00:40):
Pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Russel (00:43):
Well, the pleasure is all mine.
If you don't mind, start us off.
What does Nopio do and who doyou do it for?
Peter (00:50):
Well.
We call ourself a turnkeydigital agency.
So we're basically, um,supporting forward thinking
companies with, uh, what we liketo call world class development
and design services andsolutions.
So, uh, explaining that we arecreating marketing websites for
(01:10):
businesses all over the placeand our.
What we call why is we reallywanna stop marketing marketers
from suffering.
So, you know, a lot of them haveso much issues working with
websites.
They need to, they need to editcontent on and basically, you
know, use them every day.
(01:31):
Whatever we do, we have them inmind.
We want them to be happy andreally not.
Struggling with the tools.
Russel (01:38):
We'll dive in more into the secret sauce on how you ease
the pain of marketers, but goback in the time machine, what
was young Peter thinking he wasgonna be when he grew up?
Peter (01:49):
Oh, I was a hundred percent developer.
I was coding.
I started when I was like.
And I was like, yep, that's whatthey're gonna be doing until the
end of the edit.
Oh man, I was wrong.
So, yeah, that, that was, thatwas when I started.
It took some considerable workto actually get to the point
(02:09):
when I was doing thisprofessionally.
Uh, but it's, it's gettingboring really fast.
You know, when you're doing thisand you're coding every day
after like five years or so,you're still getting like.
Same stuff all over the, allover again.
So, uh, I discovered I reallyliked dealing with clients.
(02:32):
I prefer to actually, you know,guide the clients through what
they want because they not, theyoften don't really know what
they want.
They have the vague idea wherethey're going.
So that's where I transferredfrom being just a developer to
first like technical manager andthen more like client
relationship manager.
(02:52):
Still technical.
Yeah.
This is, this was still likeproduct owners thing on the, on
the development side.
And then, you know, I just gotlike, okay, I'm doing this for
someone else.
I always are not alwaysaligning.
I have my own, ID ask, it's timeto, you know, put my money where
my mouth is.
Yeah.
And be like, yep, I can do it.
So that was there.
Overall story.
(03:12):
This, this was like wild ride.
I can tell you I was alwayslike, um, more focused on
technology and like soft skills,math.
Why would you need doubt?
So you actually transfer fromthis like hardcore coder to
being like, uh, you know, clientoriented was, was a challenge
for someone who never reallythought this is important.
Russel (03:35):
Well, it sounds like you were pretty, pretty good at it
and uh, you know, I imaginepeople are sitting around how
different is, is what soundslike a very similar path that a
lot of of us in the US took, didyou go to university for coding
or did you just go straight intothe corporate world?
Right out of high school?
Peter (03:53):
Yeah, I actually, I, I started my studies with
environmental science, which wasmore of like water engineering,
like dams and stuff like this.
But this was quickly like, no,that's not for me.
Uh, so I transferred myself toit in environmental engineering.
So that is my Master's ofScience.
Uh.
(04:14):
Pretty boring stuff still, butyou know, it's kind of teaching
you how to code.
It's most more like getting thedegree.
For me, I was really self-taughtand spent so much time with
computers.
Technological point of view,quite less, yeah.
More of like organization andgetting up to, to the standards
of like actually working class.
So that was, that was one,right.
(04:35):
Anyway.
Russel (04:36):
Okay.
And so once you decided you, youdidn't wanna be doing this or
someone else wanted to startdoing it for yourself, was it
just quitting your job andstarting your business?
Or how did that evolution looklike?
Peter (04:46):
I got myself fired.
I got myself fired.
I love it.
Yeah, it's, you know, I, I waspretty high in the ranks of the,
of the previous company I wasworking in.
But then, you know, it waspretty obvious that my views on
what I wanna do and how, where Iwould like the company to be
going wasn't really alignedwith, uh, with the owners.
(05:06):
So we were talking about thisfor some time.
They knew what I had in my plansand, you know, one day it was
like.
My ideas were just a bit toomuch.
So this was like, hey, best topathway.
So still at good terms.
So nothing really, you know,wrong there, but you know, that
gives you the kick basically.
(05:27):
So some people, I was supercomfortable in that, in that
job, so I was like, yep, I stillhave some time.
I have things to learn.
So that was the push I needed toactually be like, okay, it is
time I need to do it.
Russel (05:38):
Okay.
And I mean, again, I, you know,you don't have the comparable in
the and from the US perspective,but is starting a business just
signing up kind of how we do inthe US or is there anything
different as far as actuallygetting your business up and
running?
Peter (05:53):
Uh, it's actually not that different because Poland
was terrible bureaucracy wisepreviously, but when I was
starting it was already like asingle window.
You just go there.
Big difference between the USand Poland, I think if nothing
change in the US you don't needto pay your social security when
you're not having an income.
(06:14):
And in Poland, when you have anactive business, they don't
really care.
You still need to pay.
So when you have a Right,especially when you're starting,
they have a program wherethere's like a, you need to pay
less for two years, but whenyou're struggling those like
first year, months or years, youcan be really like, oh my god,
this, you need to pay my, youknow, health tax.
Yeah.
Russel (06:35):
Okay.
Uh, very interesting.
And so how did you get yourfirst set of clients?
What did that look like?
Peter (06:41):
Uh, first I, because I was working with my previous
employer, which was a US basedcompany.
I, you know, over the course ofyears, I worked there for like
eight years.
Basically.
I was still on the, on theuniversity when I started
working them on third year.
So I knew a bunch of peoplethere and you know when you're
starting, you start startingsmall.
So my previous employer did notreally have anything against,
(07:04):
they weren't interested in thekind of jobs I was taking as
myself.
And this obviously helps you tobuild the referrals base'cause
people are happy with whatyou're doing.
They knew me, they liked workingwith me in a lot of cases.
They, you know, asked for mewhile working with my kids
employer.
So I was like.
I had a good standing with themand you know, there wasn't
competing, we weren't doing thesame stuff as there as my
(07:26):
previous boss, so it's fine.
Russel (07:28):
Was there a moment you encountered as you're kind of in
the early stage of you're like,oh crap, maybe I shouldn't have
done this, or this was not thebest decision, or was it all
roses and sunshine?
Peter (07:38):
No, because we parted ways in like October.
So sometime in January,February, the next year, I got
my tax slip from my previousjob.
And I looked on my income from,you know, the first 10 months of
the previous year.
And then the month I, when Istarted the business, like man.
(08:02):
It still be some considerabletime to actually get back to the
way of earning when I was, whenI was employed.
So that was like, I was a bit ofa shocker because everyone's
like, oh my God, I gonna get somany clients and it's gonna be
all rose and flowers.
But in the reality, it actuallytakes time to get that.
Through output.
You need to, to build the sameincome when you have, you know,
(08:22):
when you have a salary running,um, five people team or 10
people team.
So that's, uh, that was the hardlesson.
Fortunately back then, I didn'treally have a lot of, you know,
fixed expenses.
I couldn't, uh, I couldn'tmanage.
So that was, that was fortunate.
Okay.
Russel (08:38):
And how long did it take you to get to a turning point
where you're like, all right,I've got this.
Life is good, I'm not stressed,or have you arrived at that
point yet?
Peter (08:49):
There are multiple points like this, I think because ba
basically where we are, right?
Uh, where we're right now we areafter a pivot in business.
So when we originally started,this was a software house and we
were doing group Beyond Rail andbeyond plus, plus React, uh, js,
uh, web applications.
(09:09):
And this was extremelystressful, really, like this was
not an like.
With those, you do a singlemistake on the planning phase or
someone does something stupid onthe development and you can be,
you know, from profitable tounder the line.
So yes, we were making the need,but there was so much risk.
I was really like stressed allthe time.
(09:31):
So we grown up like almost 20people.
We were doing relatively well.
But you know, the next bad luckis just.
Behind the corner and in Polandwhen we actually started, when I
actually started my own, itbecame the moment where salaries
in Nike just exploded.
You know, when I was stillworking with Profu employer, you
(09:54):
could get a really good tenuredeveloper for probably
equivalent of two and half,maybe two or something like that
per month.
Yeah.
And that was like a really highsalary for.
But you know, right now you'reprobably not gonna be able to
(10:14):
find someone for like eight to10 if you want.
Really someone, someone likereally senior.
So for policy reality, this waslike ridiculous for a small team
because you can't really affordto have anyone on a bench.
And if you don't have anyone ona bench, you can really take an
project because you don't havethe resources.
So that's like, uh, the citycould closes.
Yeah.
We didn't want to get any loansto run the business.
(10:35):
So this was like, okay, this isreally shaping to be
problematic.
But in the meantime, so thesewere the people that I was
getting more stress, stress,stress, stress.
Because like I knew even if I doexceptionally well, there is
something that's gonna go wrong.
So this was the moment where alot of our clients that we more
corporate clients, started to belike, Hey, we, the website built
(10:58):
for this product as well.
Can you help us?
How hard can it be?
And like there, there'sWordPress on the market.
Um, we tested it previously, Ihated it with passion, but after
version like four or something,three, maybe after three, it
became actually a useful tool ifyou wanted to do this more
professionally.
And in most cases, those were,you know, bigger clients like
(11:20):
for example, port Novelli, whichwas, they did most of their
design in-house and they werejust like, Hey, we need a really
trusted technology partner to dothis the right way.
And after some time it becameobvious that salaries on
WordPress developers areactually way lower than the rack
will be Java, whatever you thename there.
(11:43):
The work is actually way easierthere is because there isn't
really that many things that cango wrong on the WordPress side,
maybe integrations, but ingeneral those are less complex
projects.
But the fun is there.
The clients are awesome becausethose are typically marketing
people who are fun to be in mostcases.
So at this stage, one of theclients came and I met Nick, my
(12:07):
current business partner, and hewas the designer for the startup
he was working for at the time.
And so suddenly we went frombeing a really 30, uh,
technology partner to having,uh, design and technology.
Design and develop on that that.
(12:32):
Foundation for what we are rightnow.
Because right now we like thisconsolidated hybrid 50 50 design
technology.
We wanna be equally good at boththose things.
People love it because they geta tool that they can actually
use that works well, but it'salso beautiful and beautifully
designed so.
Also perfect.
Uh, over time we decided to dookay, we need to do content
(12:53):
because a lot of people werecoming to us and they really
cannot do anything with theirown content.
People cannot write for web, sowe found people with, they're
not partners in the company perse, but with working with them
pretty exclusively.
So those are our copystrategists, copywriters, and we
also have very good resource forSEO, so we can actually do
(13:14):
pretty much the whole thing.
Except for like regularmarketing work where you need to
do ads and stuff.
This is something we're notexactly sure what.
Russel (13:23):
Fascinating.
That was lengthy.
Yeah.
No worries at all.
It's a very cool part of yourstory, and as I understand it, a
lot of your clients or most ofyour clients are actually based
in the us.
Is that correct?
Peter (13:34):
Yes.
Uh, we're not like limitingourselves to be US only, but
that's the market I'm killing.
I think most attached to, I knowit the best.
I spent most of my, my careerworking with American clients.
But, uh, we do work with peoplein Canada.
We work with people in UnitedKingdom, Germany, all over the
place will be, so we have clientthat is out of China, Hal
(13:57):
German.
Yes.
We, we can do it.
Uh, we work with some clients inSwitzerland.
Yeah.
Really all over the place.
It's just.
Because we have so much to dowith the US it's probably like
85% of our business right now.
Russel (14:11):
So do you have to work like night hours a lot because
of the time zone differences orhow do you manage that?
Peter (14:18):
Actually, not really Well, except for recording.
Um, no, actually it works reallywell because when we are in
Poland, we're between the NewYork and Poland, theres sea sour
difference.
There's nine hours between, uh,California and Poland.
So what we tend to do is do anwork intensive time in the
(14:39):
mornings, and then we havemeeting times the afternoons,
and most of our clients arereally understanding that we are
in a different time zone.
So they do tend to schedule themeetings with us early in their
days.
So we typically done by 6:00 PMSo that's, that's not, yeah.
Russel (14:56):
You're probably incentivizing a lot of people
out there to maybe from thatbasis alone, to actually go work
more internationally so you canget those long periods of
intense working time and thewhole day is now open for
meetings.
I could see a real benefit fromthat.
Um, good strategy there.
Yeah, good strategy there,Peter.
Um, well, I mean, me personally,I imagine a lot of people asking
(15:16):
given you have a lot ofexperience with American
companies, what's the biggestdifference between how you do
business in Poland and how we dobusiness in the us?
That's
Peter (15:26):
gonna sound funny, but you guys are more honest.
Russel (15:29):
Okay.
So
Peter (15:30):
for example, I don't think we ever had a client that
wasn't willing to pay theirbills.
And in Poland it's pretty commonthat doing business here is
really like a bit of a wildwest.
So for example, in the US youcan send someone an email that
you agree to a contract.
(15:53):
That's actually a valid contractsign in.
Even in the court.
Yeah.
In Poland, if it's notnotarized, it's pretty much
invalid.
You can just throw it away.
Wow.
So a lot of people are usinglike this, you know, to get an
advantage of, of other people.
So I'm not too fond of doingbusiness in Poland and a lot of
my friends are really likestruggling with it.
(16:13):
Especially if you're a smallplayer, you can't really afford
to, you know, put someonethrough court because obviously
this is expensive here as wellas it's in the us.
So, yeah, I think that's thebiggest difference.
And in Poland, you just loveyour bureaucracy.
Like we are still, if you wantto have a contract, needs to be
in paper, it needs to bestamped.
(16:34):
I remember the first time, thefirst time I got my, uh, in
Europe we have VT, uh, tax.
So basically that's, that's atax that you're paying on all
the services that are donebetween, uh, business and
client.
It's pretty much on everything.
Even if you're a business payingbusiness in Forland, you need to
pay VAT tax and then you can getreturn of that.
(16:58):
So when we are doing business inthe us, you guys are not paying
VAT on our invoices, but we'repaying VAT on everything else.
So we need to get tax return,and every time we get tax
return, we get.
By s our version of irs.
Yeah.
So, so the first time they didthat, they were like, we need to
(17:19):
have your contracts with yourclients.
I'm like, sure.
Here they're, and obviouslythere's a pdf.
No, we need your contract andthey need to be stumped by the
client.
Uh, you're in the us So when didyou have a stump for your
business?
Russel (17:36):
Uh,
Peter (17:36):
probably not.
I
Russel (17:37):
mean, well, a lot of times, anytime you sign like
someone with a bank or somethinglike that, they'll require like
a notarization.
But usually most business tobusiness dealings.
In fact, probably non-bankingrelated.
I think the only time was when Iactually sold the business.
I think we had to have somethingnotarized then, if I remember
correctly.
Peter (17:52):
And you have this like stump that is pressed into the
paper.
Yeah, and we just have thoselike ink that is, you know, the
name and the signature andstuff.
This is stupid.
I think that's similar.
Similar
Russel (18:03):
here.
Peter (18:05):
So it took us a quarter to explain that the businesses
we are doing business with donot have that.
And yeah, Polish governmentlevel was like, how can they not
have it?
Yeah.
That was ridiculous that, that,that was like a fun ride.
But now it's actually like I, Ithink they learned a lesson.
It's not a big deal right now.
They still control us likequite.
Russel (18:26):
Government's always gotta make themselves difficult,
it sounds like in the US and um,and Poland, just, they find
different ways to do it, itsounds like.
Peter (18:35):
Yeah.
There are all the differences.
Like you have way easier law interms of spending company money.
You can, uh, put a lot of thingsin company expenses.
You're not like crazy with theamount in Poland, we had
situations when the, you know,governmental check was like,
you're using too much sugar inthe office.
Like, why would you care?
(18:57):
I mean, like, this is like, youknow,$10 a month.
Come on.
Like, are you, you're wastingyour time.
Okay.
All right.
So yeah, this, this is a bitridiculous sometimes.
Good.
I'm not thinking about this.
Russel (19:09):
Maybe our US listeners won't complain so much now when
they hear people like tocomplain about taxes and all
that stuff here, so, uh, just soyou folks out there know, um,
what's your big goal with thebusiness?
What's the, what's the futurelook like for you and Nopio?
Peter (19:25):
Well, we wanna grow, basically.
We wanna get bigger.
More interesting clients.
That's, I think, goal for everyagency.
I think somewhere in the longerfuture we would like to be able
to sell the business, but rightnow there isn't really any drive
towards this.
We are still treating whateverwe're doing.
We're still treating it as a bitstrapping pace, like we, yeah,
(19:48):
experimenting with processes,making sure everything is as set
up as possible.
Uh, we constantly innovators,we, we like cannot really live
long enough with.
This is good enough.
Now we just wanna improve that.
So we're just constantly havingfun with like getting our
processes in internally.
Because with agencies like this,the biggest issue is that you
(20:09):
have friction point between thedesign and development.
So in a lot of cases you areworking either with design
agency or the technology agency,and they need to hand off the
design to the technology.
And the tech was not involved inthe design.
Sometimes there's like, guys,what the heck did you do this?
Oh, so then it's like.
We are actually very good atlimiting this friction point
(20:32):
because obviously we have theteams that are working
constantly together.
So that's pretty muchnonexisting.
We're super happy with how itworks, but there is always
things to improve.
So ideally we want this to workas a one organism.
So basically that is, well, ofcourse, to support the designers
designer, understand what the,the developers need, and that's,
(20:53):
that's what we're trying to, toachieve in the long run.
Russel (20:56):
So obviously you, you had experience in the corporate
role and managing a team andemployees, uh, on the US side,
and then now you've, you'veobviously grown your team to a
decent size there in Poland.
What is that specific part ofthe ownership experience
different, uh, in terms ofmanaging a team and from the US
to Poland?
Peter (21:14):
Well, I was always managing team using Poland in
general, but he was an Americancompany.
The big difference I can tellyou from what I see is that in
the US people are very used toworking on the short contracts
or like non-permanent workagreements, how we would call
them.
And in Poland everyone areexpecting to be full-time
(21:34):
employee and for pretty muchinfinite terms.
So basically you sign a contractand it doesn't really have an
expiration date.
And this is mostly because thebanking system requires you have
that if you want to get amortgage or another loan.
So it's like, you know this, thesystem is driving people into
that.
Yeah.
Russel (21:54):
Mm-hmm.
Peter (21:55):
But in general, running teams, uh, I think people just
like are less likely to changejobs, especially like a bit
older people in Poland.
So even younger.
My feeling is that looking athow the businesses we are
working with in the US operateand what's the, uh, rotation of
(22:17):
the staff there.
Uh, I think the exchange ofstaff is way lower in Poland
than that is.
In the US people are less likelyto change job.
You really need to get undertheir skin to make them leave or
you know, you don't wanna paythem more or stuff, stuff like
that.
But in general, this is not,this is not our rational game.
It's changing, but it's stillnot the same and people are
(22:37):
moving less.
In Poland, you typically wannaown the property.
So when you own the apartment,you don't really wanna move the
other side of the country, whichis Yeah.
Even though it's, you know, ourcountry is like one of your
states.
So that's, that's what,
Russel (22:51):
yeah.
Interesting.
And are you fully remote or doyou have an office?
What is, what is the workenvironment?
We're fully
Peter (22:57):
remote okay's.
Fully remote.
Have you always
Russel (22:59):
been?
Peter (23:00):
No.
I was a hardcore, we need to bein the office and then the
pandemic happened.
I, I think, learned my lesson.
We haven't lost anyproductivity.
You know, we are stillrelatively small team, so it's
kind of hard to hide not doingyour job.
I'm assuming when you would havelike 200 people, that's gonna be
(23:21):
a bigger problem than it is forus.
But also, like, you're notlimited to hiring the high
competitive environment anymore.
You just can get people from allover the place.
So that's, that's really goodfor us.
Right.
Russel (23:35):
Well, my net takeaway then aside for some legality and
some tax things, that running anagency in Poland is pretty much
the same as it is here in theStates, um, for the most part.
There's so many other trendsthat are different between the
US and different Europeancountries that but business
seems very, very similar.
Peter (23:54):
Keep in mind, this may be because I was taught by the
American company, so maybe Ilife very similarly to what it
was.
Very true.
Russel (24:04):
Well, I could probably ask you a hundred more
questions, but uh, time isrunning out, but maybe the, one
of the last big questions I'llask for you is, are
entrepreneurs born or are theymade.
Peter (24:16):
I think a little bit of both.
So I think it's way easier forsomeone to become an
entrepreneur if they have thefiring them, like basically this
like internal push to do morethan just working for someone
else.
Uh, a bit of a self-starter aswell would be needed to do it
because no one is telling youwhat to do when you're, when
(24:38):
you're on your own.
I think it's also an environmentthat shapes us as entrepreneurs.
You know, uh, sometimes you seethat, I told you before, like I
felt that I needed the push toactually go with my, with my
own, and I'm pretty good atstarting.
So I think there's a little bitof both environment and how you
(24:59):
being born and how you're beingbrought up as well.
You know, I was always like.
I'm single parent, just mother.
So she wasn't really giving meeverything I wanted.
She, by, by design, this was herway of bringing me up, which was
fine because I always needed todo a little bit of
entrepreneurship to get a littlebit more out of my life.
(25:21):
So that's, that's why I'mcalling this, uh, you know,
bringing someone up as the moreentrepreneurial than not.
Russel (25:28):
Yeah.
It's very interesting and a anda lot of folks that I've talked
to, say a similar thing or ifyou dig deep into their story a
little bit, that they had alittle bit of type of hardship.
Whether it just be kind of a, asyou said, a single mother
situation where it created thiswant to the need, want or need
of something a little more, or.
Uh, I've had cases where parentsdied or, or similar type
(25:48):
situations that created thislittle bit of a burning desire,
uh, as kind of being a keyingredient in a, in a lot of
folks that ultimately becameentrepreneurs.
So I, I found that to be a very,very fascinating scenario.
But, thank you for sharing that.
Well, if people wanna know moreabout Nopio, where can they go?
Peter (26:06):
Well, obviously our website com.
Um.
Or just ping me on LinkedIn.
We can probably drop my LinkedInprofile into the description if
you, if you absolutely can dothat.
Yeah, that's two good places.
Perfect.
Russel (26:21):
And that's NOPI o.com.
Reach out to Peter on LinkedIn.
It's not actually Peter, for thefolks at home you can share, how
do you say your name in Polish?
It's ot.
There you go.
You get it straight from Peterhimself.
Well thank you so much for beingon the show today, Peter.
It's great pleasure.
Thank you for sharing all yourinsights from and, and staying
(26:42):
up so late there in Poland to bea guest on the show.
It was an absolute pleasure.
Peter (26:48):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me.
This was absolute pleasure.
Russel (26:51):
Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where
every story helps you write yourown, subscribe, share, and join
us again for more real stories,lessons learned, and
breakthroughs ahead.
What's next?
You'll wanna visitanagencystory.com/podcast and
follow us on Instagram at@anagencystory for the latest
updates.
Peter (27:13):
We work with a lot of companies that are.
Midlevel established, you know,like probably between hundred 50
and 200 people in the, in thestaff.
And they're at the stage wherethey are fairly self-conscious
about like sharing access tostaff.
And our policy is that if webuild something for you, we'd
happy to deploy it for you toyour hosting or help your team
(27:36):
and stuff like that.
So for me, it's alwaysentertaining when I'm like, Hey,
you know, if you want us to helpyou with setting up your
website, get us access to yourDNS system, we're gonna point it
to the right records and it'sgonna be all like, worked.
Well, we know what we're doing.
No, no, no.
We have a guy that is doing thisfor us, like forever and it's
always gonna be like he, youjust sent him what you need and
(27:59):
it's gonna be okay.
And then a few times we're justsending them, like, change those
records, put the a records name,record, whatever there is.
And I'm getting a call.
Our email doesn't work.
What happened?
The guy who knew who he wasdoing deleted all the records on
the DNS except the ones we senthim.
It's like, okay.
(28:21):
Yeah, I'm not sure why.
Just like that.
It's obviously DNS like tellingthis with anyone's risking
because someone can just takeover your domain and you can't
really do much about that backthen.
But yeah, this is always funnythat they do have trusted
people.
Russel (28:38):
Yeah.
I can't say how many times we'verun into that exact same issue.
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