October 12, 2025 • 41 mins
Most agency owners don’t realize how long they’ve been operating in survival mode, it becomes default. In this episode, Kelly Gordon of Dapper Codes shares what it really took to move from reacting to everything to leading with intention. You’ll hear the turning points, the mindset shifts, and the cost of staying in “hard mode” too long.
Key Takeaways
- The unseen impact of staying in survival mode
- Why hard things take much longer than we expect
- How positioning evolves over time, not overnight
- The danger of selling services you shouldn’t
- What changes when vision finally replaces urgency
Hear details for an agency planning workshop event November 10th and 11th 2025. Visit anagencystory.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Russel (00:01):
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turned Business coach,sold my agency and now helps
agency leaders create theirideal business.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show today,everyone.
I have Kelly Gordon with DapperCodes here today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today.
Kelly,
Kelly (00:38):
thank you so much for having me.
I'm pumped to be here.
Russel (00:41):
Good.
Well, I'm looking forward to itas well.
Straight outta the gate.
Tell us what Dapper Codes doesand who you do it for.
Kelly (00:48):
Absolutely.
So these days we are reallyfocusing on white label, SEO for
other agencies.
That is our big push.
Um, where I came from, gosh, wayback in the day.
Um, 2018, uh, is when I gotstarted.
Um, I was outta school for webdesign and development.
That's where I started, movedinto marketing obviously before
even Facebook ads was a thing.
(01:09):
Um, and moved forward.
One of the big things that we dostill for direct clients, in
dapper is messaging, whetherthat's for organic or for paid.
It's all around the messaging.
If the messaging and thepositioning is not right, it
doesn't matter.
Nothing's really gonna work.
But those are the two mainthings that we've got going on
this days.
Russel (01:25):
Uh, and did you just make me feel ancient by
referring to 2018 as way back inthe day?
Kelly (01:32):
Very unintentionally to me, it seems like a long time
ago.
Russel (01:36):
Uh, I, I get it.
It's all, it's all a relativething.
Um, but, uh, fair, fair enough,fair enough.
Well, I certainly want to hearmore about what you've done in
your agency and some of the coolthings going on there.
But, uh, let's walk back in timereal quick and.
Well, what were you doing?
What inspired you as a youthwhen you look back and that
(01:56):
maybe was formative in the, inthe career and path that you
eventually took?
Kelly (02:00):
Yeah, so, um, when I was, yo, I mean, from before I could
walk till kind of mid twenties,I rode horses competitively.
Okay.
Um, I'm an inventor.
For those of you who knows whatthat means.
Um, grew up in pony club and allof that.
Hold on.
Russel (02:13):
But for those that don't know what that means, what is,
what is that?
It's basically
Kelly (02:16):
the triathlon of the English riding world.
So there's cross country, whichis jumps outside, and then
there's jumps like in a ring,and then there's dressage, which
is, if you've seen it, if youhaven't looked up, there's a
Snoop Dogg thing that he doeswatching dressage for the first
time.
So it was Kevin Hart and youshould watch it just even if you
don't dress
Russel (02:36):
dressage.
Is that how you say dressage?
Kelly (02:38):
D-R-E-S-S-A-G-E.
Yeah.
Is
Russel (02:40):
that like when they do the kind of fancy stepping,
like, that is my very laymanstuff.
Kelly (02:45):
Yeah.
Russel (02:45):
Okay.
All right.
Alright.
Alright.
Very cool.
So,
Kelly (02:47):
um, I did that, you know, we didn't have any money, so I,
I worked on those farms, uh,forever and my dad was a, a
cabinet maker and his thing washe came to, I was like 16, I
remember it like it wasyesterday.
He died in 2019.
But he came to me and he said, Idon't want you to work with your
body.
I want you to work with yourbrain.
(03:08):
Pretty much was the sum of thisconversation.
'Cause he was older at the time.
His body was giving out, youknow what I mean?
Like, that's just one of thosethings.
And he was like, I just don'twant this for you.
And it was just a, it took meyears to figure that out and
find a path and like all ofthat.
But I, I mean, I'm just turned39.
I remember that.
Crazy like it was yesterday, youknow what I mean?
(03:29):
Yeah.
And
Russel (03:29):
being able to, and that really set the path for you to
say it did, it's gonna be brain.
Yeah.
Kelly (03:34):
I wasn't really sure like how to navigate that.
I mean, that was, what I hadbeen doing was, had been my
whole life for forever.
That's what I was gonna do forforever.
And with some guidance from himand things like that, I did go,
um, got one of those acceleratedassociate's degrees in web
design and development.
Actually.
Is this
Russel (03:53):
from like a code school?
Like did you go to like a Yeah,an old fashioned.
Okay.
Kelly (03:57):
Yeah.
Well,
Russel (03:57):
I mean real, real quick and I wanna pinpoint on that.
'cause I, back when I was anagency, I was a big fan of the
code schools.
I felt like they were at leastattempting to solve a very big
market need of don't spend fouryears, get people kickstarted,
grab people from other careerfields and get them involved.
So I was a big fan of hoodschools, but I also.
A lot of times saw that theresults, especially dependent
(04:18):
upon the person, didn't alwayspan out.
What was your experience like inschool?
Amazing.
Kelly (04:22):
The absolute be, I would tell anybody, like I'm very much
in the, we don't all need to goto four year universities,
right?
Those that do, please.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, go on and do the thing.
Lawyers and doctors and all ofthat kind of stuff, what
everyone do, but the vastmajority don't.
I'm very personally, uh,opinionated in that position.
I was homeschooled in middleschool.
I went to elementary school, um,but homeschooled in middle
(04:43):
school.
I literally didn't do anythingfor high school.
I have a GED, um, and got thatafter I left home and there's a
lot of things, but sure, got myGED, uh, went to and got an
associated degree.
Literally, probably at thisstage, the best decision I ever
made.
Period.
Um, being able to like get in, Iimmediately got, um, internships
(05:05):
in one of the largest companiesin our area.
They actually are, became clientat one point, uh, in the last
little bit for some consulting,which is a really huge full
circle moment for all of us.
You know what I mean?
So like,
Russel (05:18):
nice.
Kelly (05:18):
I don't think anybody in my graduating class does what I
do.
So I think, you know, but thesame, I think if we go to, you
know, the big universities hereis the closest one is like
Clemson or Walford's down road.
If we, um, look at who graduatedfrom what, from there, I think
it's probably the same thing,right?
Everybody goes their own paths.
There's a lot of decisions thatare made when you're younger,
right?
But for me, absolute bestdecision would recommend it.
(05:41):
If you see your, that that's theroute that you wanna go, then go
to one of those schools.
It is not worth going anywhereelse.
Russel (05:48):
Okay.
Now I am curious too, becauseI've seen it as well, or at
least from my own kind ofexperience in that, that, I
mean, you've seen like a hardcharger, smart, right?
Get it done attitude, and thosedo succeed, right?
It's the exposure to that worldthat you can just grab that fire
and, and take on, and thenthey're.
I don't know if some, maybe someof these schools with their
pitching say.
(06:08):
Right.
I, I've also heard the storieswhere people show up in those
classes and they play videogames and, and don't get that
experience, but we'll net thatout and say, you gotta leverage
the opportunity and experience.
Right.
You gotta
Kelly (06:19):
leverage it.
You gotta be an adult, you know,find the best program.
There's lots of good and bad allover the place.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Regardless, but yeah.
Russel (06:26):
Which one did you do?
Kelly (06:28):
ECPI actually, I heard about that, so I guess they're
all over, but there's one herein Greenville.
Russel (06:32):
Okay.
Good to know.
Good to know.
As you're kind of, youdescribing that journey,
obviously, and it seems likethat's worked out really well
for you when you were goingthrough that.
Back then, in that time period,I mean, did the path feel
certain and confident in that,or were, were you questioning
yourself as you were goingthrough this every
Kelly (06:48):
day for like 10 years?
So it's fine.
You know, it's one of thosethings where you like, you know,
you realize like, oh my God, I'mvastly unemployable.
Cool.
So like, now I have to make thiswork, One of my best friends has
a saying that's like, it'samazing what you can do and you
don't have a choice.
So a lot of what I did wasbecause I realized, uh, in that
(07:10):
I, I financially supported myparents for a long time for lots
of reasons.
And so I, I ultimately realizedI had the internship at that
company.
They offered me a job, wasn'tenough money, especially back in
2008.
Um, and it was one of thosethings where I was like, the
only way that I'm gonna make themoney that I've gotta make.
I was very young then, um, ofbeing able to say, I've gotta go
(07:31):
out on my own.
I have to figure this out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but this was obviouslybefore even podcasts or Facebook
groups or coaching or mentor,you know, like literally just
had to figure out the hard wayand find out what was going on
Um, so I, my head of ops nowsays, you have been doing
everything on hard mode for thelast 15 years.
I'm not sure why.
Let's just make this easier, youknow?
(07:51):
Yeah.
You know, it's one of thosethings, but um, probably having
to do with me being on thespectrum and like all that kind
of stuff.
But ultimately, no, every dayfor a long time just was like,
you just have to put one foot infront of the other.
I
Russel (08:04):
mean, that's a tough responsibility to carry.
And when you look back at thatand, and as you're kind of
saying, right, there's nothinglike a have to and, uh, having
your back against the wall.
I mean, when you just think, isthat how you thrive best, you
know, when you maybe look backon it, is it just.
Look, I didn't have an option,so I wasn't even, I just wasn't
even thinking I was justplowing.
Kelly (08:25):
It just was what it was.
Even kind of, now, you know, Iknow that that's what was
happening, but I don't see adifferent route.
I don't see a different option.
It just is what had to be done.
Russel (08:37):
So walk us up to the point of like, when was the
official start of your agency?
What led to that?
And we'll go from there.
So
Kelly (08:45):
I started freelancing in 2008, um, right outta school
and, um, officially created thecompany in 2015, um, in March of
2015.
Um, I had had some on and offjobs.
I mean, I was not making enoughmoney the first year, so even in
2015.
The first year that I was like abusiness business.
I think the business profit waslike$5,000.
(09:06):
Like
Russel (09:06):
yeah.
Kelly (09:07):
It just, that's
Russel (09:08):
fair.
Yeah.
Kelly (09:08):
Like, you know, here we're, but just learned all the
things.
I was able to pay the bills, Iwas able to make more than I
could have, uh, than I wasmaking when I was a bartender
before.
I bartended, I, I worked in, inveterinary offices.
I was the practice manager ofsurgery for Specialty Center,
during those kind of 2008 to2015 trying to keep everything
paid.
But it would just became, itactually was when I was working
(09:30):
at that emergency center or thatspecialty center.
There was an ER there too, butthe boss was horrible.
Like, yeah,
Russel (09:36):
that'll be it.
Kelly (09:38):
I was 26 7 at the time and I got shingles from the
stress and to this day will haveflare ups if I get too stressed.
Oh my gosh.
But like, it never really goesaway.
Okay.
Russel (09:49):
There, there, there's inspiration to not be a bad boss
out there.
Mm-hmm.
Or get rid of bad bosses becauseto what you're saying, like
you're causing lifelongillnesses if you're a bad boss.
Yeah.
I don't do
Kelly (09:58):
that to people.
Yeah.
'cause in that, in thatenvironment, obviously in lots
of digital environments, you getpaid ahead of time.
Um, in those environments fromtraditional vines, you get paid
at the end.
Right?
So the last monthly payment Igot mine, I think monthly or
whatever pay that came in waslike my last day and the
horrible boss reversed it.
(10:19):
Now, I also didn't have themoney to go to a lawyer or to do
whatever, but that was like whatI needed to get.
Yeah.
Into that next month, paying thebills.
It was like right on the first,right?
Everything is due, you know,like all that kind of thing.
And I mean, he wasn't gonna doanything about it, you know?
And I didn't have money to go toa lawyer to do anything about
it.
So you just have to walk away atthat point.
But lots of hurdles to get towhere we are today.
Russel (10:42):
Indeed, indeed.
Uh, all that is great is forgedthrough fire.
And we're gonna kind of bouncearound the chronological aspect
or maybe foreshadow some things.
But I, I know where you're attoday, right?
Is not the younger version ofyourself, but that you have a
very strategic long-term plan interms of how you're going about
this business.
(11:02):
How clear was that plan in theearly days of your business?
Nonexistent.
Non-existent.
Okay.
And that makes sense, right?
I, I'm not surprised, but youknow, some folks do operate that
way.
Kelly (11:13):
Absolutely.
You know, my view, and obviouslythis is opinion based on where I
came from and like my justsubjective being human, that
there are moments without havinglike a clear way to say it.
So like.
We didn't have any money.
The well pump broke.
Right.
We didn't have water coming.
He couldn't, my dad couldn't fixthe well pump.
(11:33):
There was no running water.
You know what I mean?
Like I've lived in places Wow.
Where there's no heat, wherethere's no air.
I've lived in a place with myparents where they can only
afford a one bedroom, so I wassleeping on a couch.
Like, so coming from likeunderstanding that, and I'm sure
there's lots of people that'lllisten to this, that can like
relate to that.
People always say that like,money buys happiness.
(11:54):
It doesn't.
But it can buy some comfort,right?
Yes.
And so like, like you understandthat that's a thing, but then
when you become morecomfortable, you realize that
the questions that you can askyourself or the thought
processes that you can have ashift.
(12:18):
From, I have to do this thingbecause I have to pay the bill,
I have to do this, I've gotthis, I've got, you know what I
mean?
That overshadows, any ability tosay, I have a mission in life
that I see now that I've come tohere is a privilege, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's based legitimately infinances.
Right?
(12:38):
And so like being able to getyourself to that point.
Mine very few do.
Yeah.
And then very few understandlogically what's happening,
yeah.
In that moment, or being able toreflectively, say literally I
was trying to pay the bills,period, trying to keep the
lights on, trying to make surethey didn't take the car, try
to, you know, like all of thesethings, you can't think of a
(13:00):
mission, you have a
Russel (13:01):
vision
Kelly (13:02):
that's to stay safe, right?
So the comfort that it buys isnot necessarily happiness.
It builds for that, but itbuilds towards the ability to
relax.
Yeah.
And when you relax, you can freeup your frontal lobe to think of
other things.
And then once you start tothinking of other things, at
that point you can start forwardthinking.
Russel (13:25):
Yeah, fascinating.
I mean, there's a reason why thebottom of Maslow's hierarchy of
needs is survival and security.
And it does absolutely changehow we look at the world, how we
operate.
And I think you talk about areal point, and I talk about
this with a lot of agencyowners, is the survival mindset
is great for just that survival.
And in my experience andobservation a lot of times is
(13:46):
once we're out of that, once weget to that level of
comfortability that youmentioned.
It becomes a little morelimiting.
The, some of the things that weused in survival mode are
counterintuitive to the nextphase, but that a big important
part of that next phase isbecoming more mission driven
and, and establishing a purpose
Kelly (14:05):
that when we hear the statement, this has only been
something in the last few yearsthat I really figured out, is
when you hear the whatever it isthat says it's not the
destination, it's a journey,right?
That you become the person.
You need to become to do thenext thing.
That's what that is.
And when you don't have thebottom ma ops pyramid, you don't
(14:26):
have the security.
You cannot think that likethere's a wall.
Like you're never going to getto that place until you level
up.
Honestly, financially, right.
Coming from somebody'sexperience that like that's what
gets you there.
Now, that level of financialsecurity may be different,
right?
Yeah.
Literally, that could be$1,500 amonth, literally, right?
(14:48):
You'd be really surprised howsmall that number actually is,
but it's consistent, right?
Like they need that to come into be able to even consider what
the next step might be.
Russel (14:59):
Yeah.
Well I remember when I wascollege and starting out a
family and I worked at a bank,and what I always wanted is like
I wanted some and I would seebank accounts and I would see
how much interest they wouldearn, and mine was literally
$1,500 a month.
it's like, will you just loanme?
You know, I think it was like atthe time was interest rate
$250,000 and I won't touch your$250,000.
(15:20):
I just want your interest.
Mm-hmm.
That I can, I can survive hereand, and yeah.
I totally think of my earlyagency days of, it'd be hard to
start an agency later in lifejust because of what you can get
by on lifewise, income wise.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our com Yeah.
Our creatures of comfort seembecome more expensive.
Mm-hmm.
And that makes that a littlemore rough.
(15:42):
What allowed you to get to that?
Kind of past survival mode andtransition more into a
mission-driven mindset.
Kelly (15:50):
Grit, for lack of a better way to put it.
Of, of literally justregardless.
I follow, um, Andy Ell, ifanybody knows who that is.
Um, but literally just theability of the discipline of no
matter what's going on, itdoesn't matter how you feel, it
doesn't matter what's happening.
You literally, you get up andyou do the things that you have
to do every single day.
(16:10):
So that you can get to thatfuture state.
That could be years from now.
I did and woke up and workedseven days a week for forever to
the detriment of my health.
If you go back and look farenough at pictures, right, like
it's a whole thing that nothingelse mattered, period.
Now, do I recommend that?
Not necessarily.
However, that was just my path,right?
(16:31):
That I just did the thing.
Russel (16:33):
Yeah.
And hard work is certainlyright.
We gotta bring hard work to thistable.
And it sounds like that's nostranger to you.
And I think a lot of peoplearen't afraid of work, but when
you think more specificallyabout like, what did that hard
work apply to that you like,okay, once I solved this, this,
this was a very helpful thing orimportant to my sales, my
(16:55):
journey.
Okay.
Yeah.
And what, and yeah, I, I mean
Kelly (16:58):
what I learned it the hard way obnoxiously.
Yeah.
Um, there are lots of easierways to learn that now with
YouTube and training and thingslike that.
But there is absolutely a reasonwhen you ask the richest people
in the world what was theirfirst job and what was their
number one skill they sales.
Right.
Interesting.
And that, to me, understandingthat and realizing that that was
(17:18):
happening.
That I could then say, what'smaking that happen?
I had took a real introspectiveapproach What's making that
happen?
That's where I got to mymessaging and positioning Which,
if you guys scroll back farenough on my Facebook or my
LinkedIn, you'll see thatprogression.
Of like how that started to cometogether.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I frame it what I call partof my triangulation method,
(17:40):
which is our creativepositioning who I help, how I
help, a mechanism of that?
And then being able tocommunicate that in a way that
makes sense at the stage.
But that's kind of where thatoriginated for me.
Russel (17:51):
Yeah, that's becoming more talked about and never at
least how much people areliving.
That notion is varied, but thisnotion that positioning is
important for any business, butspecifically for an agency.
But I love what you sharedthere, and in using your
Facebook as a reference point ofhow much that I encourage folks
that it's a journey, not adestination, and that it's an
evolving thing and that every.
(18:12):
Day or however time period goesby that we need to refine it a
little bit more and articulateit a little bit more and connect
with it just a little bit more.
And you said it so perfectlythat that's a journey and, but
that, that's an importantjourney to go on.
Kelly (18:28):
I think the biggest thing that.
An issue now is the idea thateverything should be really
quick, mm-hmm.
I think that just as a culture,right, it's taken me the better
part of a decade to really honein on that message.
So literally at this point youpost a Facebook message and, and
or Facebook post.
(18:49):
I do.
A lot of the, I mean, probably80 plus percent of what we've
made as a business has comeorganically, right?
Through platforms, through themessaging, and then people
inbound.
To respond.
And the things that I say is themessaging that we do organic
regardless of business,regardless of what agency or
landscaping coming or whatever,whether it's organic or paid, it
really doesn't matter.
The messaging is exactly thesame.
(19:10):
Once it works, it works.
One of them is just fueling it.
Can you afford the CPLs andCPAs?
If so, great.
Russel (19:16):
Yeah.
I mean, thank you for sharingthat.
I mean Right.
A decade or, or, right.
That's what I, I think I oftentalk a lot about is that solving
something really hard, right?
They talk about simple is thehardest thing to do in this
world.
Mm-hmm.
But how important getting tosimplicity is, and it just takes
a fricking long time, and it'snot the sexiest messaging in
(19:38):
2025 to say, you know, I don'thave the quick hit for you.
I don't have, you know, solvethis in very quickly.
But I think that's a little bitof the platform I'm on is like,
let's call a spade a spade hereand say, um.
What we're got to do is going totake a long time, and it's gonna
be hard.
It's just what it's, and prepourselves for that.
And so we get less upset ordisenfranchised or likely to
(20:02):
stop that path because it's notproducing those results.
So thank you for championing,uh, a uh, I mean it's true
through lived experience.
Kelly (20:11):
Yeah.
It's just true, right?
I mean, especially none of us, Imean.
In the way that like even AI oranything that's super quick
right now, especially in theagency space, anything that
seems like it's harder that youhave to do for yourself that is
literally going to separate themen from the boys as they say in
the south, like that's adifferentiator.
And I think it's also importantto note, and I'm sure you
(20:32):
probably are similar, interestedhow you think about this, but
um.
If you had told me when Istarted, it would take this
long, I would not have started.
Yeah.
Like I would've been like, youknow what, lemme do something
else.
But arguably to get to the levelthat I am now, it would've taken
the same period of time.
Like to become very good at whatyou do.
It just takes time.
(20:53):
Yeah.
It, it just, it have toexperience it, you have to run
into all of these differentscenarios and do you know, it's
that saying that's like, youknow, I don't wanna pay you.
$500 for 30 minutes.
Well, how about the 10 or 15years that I learned to do that
in 30 minutes?
You know what I mean?
That's what you know.
You do something long enough andyou're good enough at something
that that starts to be whathappens.
Russel (21:13):
Yeah, it's interesting where the industries, where
that's accepted and where it'snot.
And I feel, you know, right.
Doctors and lawyers, likenobody.
I mean, insurance is a problem,one of those scenarios.
But lawyers, right, we, we justgenerally accept that we're
gonna pay$500 an hour and we'regonna also pay that when they're
writing us an email that it'snot just for when they're
(21:33):
actually giving us advice, butjust to read something or look
at something.
Because we know they went toschool but I don't know, I, we
gotta find a campaign to give.
Marketing in that same genre.
I think especially in 2025, it'sgotten, it's as complicated as
ever today, and it'll be.
Exponentially more complicatedtomorrow, and it just is gonna
(21:55):
take all the more time forpeople to build the knowledge,
experience, and skills to pullthis off.
So how do we do that?
Kelly (22:02):
Interestingly, and this is from experience, there's a
couple of factors at play.
One.
I get on a whole soapbox aboutbro marketers, okay, don't have
to do that today, but that is awhole thing, right?
That nothing is quick, nothingis easy, and they're turning
through people like crazy and itis causing an issue in the
industry and has been for awhile.
(22:22):
Okay?
That's a problem that needs tostop.
Probably not going to stop untilit's rejected from the.
Consumers, which I think isstarting to happen.
They're sick of that.
They understand that things arenot quick and fast and easy and
cheap.
The second piece, which has onlybeen something that I've learned
in the last probably couple ofyears, is if you're in the right
room, that happens.
So then you say, okay, it's thequality of person or client or
(22:45):
company that we are appealingto, and then their belief on how
that works.
So it's, you know, even the waythat I would operate now, which
is not even anywhere near someof what our clients do.
Like if somebody, if I have aproblem, a real problem, and
somebody says, I can solve thisproblem, this is how I would do
it.
You build trust, you buildwhatever, and they can do it.
(23:06):
And it's five times whatsomebody else can do, but I know
it will be right and it will bewithin the amount of time that
they said that they would do it.
I'm gonna pay them for it.
I'm not gonna pay money oranything.
I'm not gonna pay anybody toGuinea pig.
And that's not even to, youknow, have any problem with
those that are in the level ofgoing out and needing to learn.
(23:27):
Y'all need to, I get that.
But you don't get to play uphere.
Not yet.
Yeah.
And so everyone, consumers,clients, agencies, freelancers,
need to understand that there isa difference.
So the way that I outline thatis there's, uh, three stages to
business validation, leverage,and scale.
Most starting agency owners,right, are in that validation
(23:50):
stage themselves.
Everybody wants to charge andplay with leverage and scale,
but you don't get to do that,not until you've gotten the
experience to do that.
Russel (23:58):
Very fascinating.
I was just jotting down somenotes of like, oh, it'd be cool
to talk about this, this, andthis.
So I don't know if we're gonnaget to all those, but a quick, I
guess one we can get throughquickly is this, this notion too
that, I don't know where we'reat on this, on a scale yet, but
Right.
That we also have to get ourclients to understand we're
doing a hard thing, that even ifwe are good at our product and
service, that we also cannotsell.
(24:19):
Any, this can be quick at alland you're just gonna have to
walk that journey and just beingupfront.
But the other piece that I maybehear is, we can dive in a little
deeper on is just because youcan sell it doesn't mean your
product is finished.
Or that it doesn't need to bepolished, innovated, expanded,
whatever, or not even expanded.
I don't even say that word.
(24:40):
Um, polished and innovated isthe words I would use.
And I'll
Kelly (24:43):
go, I'll go further on that.
The biggest thing I say in salesis just because you can sell
something doesn't mean youshould.
Russel (24:49):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Of course, for them and for
Kelly (24:52):
you.
Yeah.
If for you, somebody's not worthhaving promise, but as far as
them right, maybe that's not theright thing for them, even if
you can sell it to'em.
It's kind of going back to alittle bit of, uh, you know, I
think the vast majority ofagency owners today are trained
or encounter some derivative ofSam Oven's original sales
(25:16):
script.
Which is what's killing ourindustry today.
Great.
For the time I actually respecthim incredibly right.
For what he did and built.
But it's what has led to the bromarketing and the pushy sales,
and that just because I can sellsomething doesn't mean that I
should.
Russel (25:32):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Something that is also standingout there is, I don't think, I
mean, there are, there are folksout there that are doing this
intentionally and just wannamake money.
But I think there are a lot ofgenuine, authentic people out
there that are just right.
Just always navigating thisserve and do the best thing for
the client and also continue tomake this thing survive.
(25:53):
Going back to our, our survivalthing.
Um, but it seems to me, and justkind of talking through this,
that, uh, an important aspect isjust a really real.
The awareness of where you're aton that journey and that it
could be okay to say to clientslike, look, we're kind of just
figuring this thing out.
We're not gonna charge as highas price over here.
'cause you know, we're gonnagive you a discount for our
learning curve here.
(26:14):
But just being aware of wherewe're at on that journey is my
product, Polish, refined, etcetera.
And being authentically, that'sall we
Kelly (26:21):
need.
Some transparency and some monywill go a long way.
Right?
And it, it's just one of thosealways does.
It
Russel (26:26):
seems like
Kelly (26:27):
always does.
Right.
Crazy.
Um.
Because again, the size of theclients that those people should
be playing with are fine.
They just want some help.
You know what I mean?
They're gonna be real needy.
They're gonna need a lot oftime.
But in that neediness, you'regonna learn a lot of things, so
you need that.
Right.
But it seems like there's areally large group of these
agents who owners that aren't.
(26:48):
Prepared to do the thing thatthey say for the client that
they say that they can do it forand want to have the
superiority, right?
Like that just doesn't work inthat way.
So, so long as you're verytransparent and say, you know
what, I'm just getting started,right?
This is what we can do.
This is what we're trying, I'mnot sure what hurdles we're
gonna run in last time we didit, we did this and this is how
we, you know what I mean?
Like you'd be really surprisedwhat somebody would do just to
(27:11):
get some help.
Russel (27:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And especially if that wasauthentic, like, look, I see
this and this and this, but Ialso know I don't see this,
this, and this.
That's a, that'd be aninteresting sales conversation.
And even in this
Kelly (27:23):
day and age, it's like, you know, but my mentor does
this, this, and this, and I goto these regular calls and I can
bring some of these questions.
You know what I mean?
Like, there's lots of ways thatthis happens, but
Russel (27:33):
yeah,
Kelly (27:34):
it just, there's some issues.
Russel (27:36):
That's fair.
We got some skeletons in ourcloset.
We gotta work out.
I wanna get more to, you know,we've been a fascinating
conversation, but I wanna getmore to, I really like the
mission and long-term kind ofvision and plan that you have
for the business.
Um, so I'm sure that willgetting a whole conversation
into itself.
So tell us what that is andwe'll go from there.
Kelly (27:57):
Absolutely.
So you.
One of the things that reallysticks out to me, um, in life is
when we lost everything.
Uh, the house, the car, the, allthe things, um, his business
tanked, all this kind of stuff.
When the economy went down itwas, if I was who I am today, I
(28:18):
could have helped thatsituation.
From a marketing standpoint,from a sales standpoint, I could
have, I now have those skills toat least slow it, stop it,
change it.
That that would not have beenthe outcome.
Um, and one of my biggestmissions in life, whether you
know, through dapp or whetherit's our white label, SEO, or
our direct to client, is thespider web effect.
(28:40):
When we work with a smallclient, yes, even in white
label, we're dealing with anagency, but they have individual
clients, and those individualclients own their business.
Same as our direct clients,right?
They have families, theiremployees have families or
contractors have families.
All of that.
If we can help them market theirbusiness and push forward how
many sales they get, how manyconversations they get, how many
(29:01):
Outbacks they get, then we getto impact.
Lots and lots of lives in waysthat we would never have met
these, these people, right?
But being able to be reallyhonest, be really transparent
and say, you may think thatthat's the right direction.
It's not.
This is, and this is the rightdirection because X, Y, and Z.
We want to do this so that wecan stop these things.
(29:23):
So.
Again, you same as we talkedabout in the beginning, you
never see a mission.
Early on, my mission was, youknow, no, don't, don't get
kicked out of where you'reliving.
Right?
Yeah.
Eat some food.
Um, but at this point it's howmany people can I help?
Because I know what that's gonnado to that family.
Russel (29:40):
And that's powerful.
Kelly (29:42):
Mm-hmm.
Russel (29:42):
And needed
Kelly (29:44):
trying to do the right thing.
Russel (29:46):
Well, I mean, that's why, you know, I, I liked your
story and this is why I do whatI do, is, uh, you know, that it
is that notion and I forgeteverything.
I love this and I forget somedays, so when I pay Amazon to do
something but the more money wecan put in the hands of small
businesses, it's gonna have afar better trickle down effect
(30:08):
or, spider web effect, as yousaid, than.
Then Yeah.
Um, putting it than anything.
Yeah.
The 90% of my dollar going intoJeff Bezos's pocket.
Kelly (30:17):
Right.
Going, I mean, we live, um, herepretty much 10 miles, 10 ish
miles from the epicenter of, um,Helene in Western North
Carolina, you know, and whatthey've had to do to rebuild and
all that kind of stuff.
Like we'll just go over thereand spend money.
Because that's the only thingthat matters.
You go over there and eat, yougo buy something.
You do the, you know, becausethat's how this works.
And it's just making sure that,you know, the only thing in life
(30:40):
that we really have any powerwith is our money.
I hate that.
But it, it just is, it is true.
It's not necessarily that Icreated the roles.
I just, you know, understandthem at this point.
So being able to say, how is itthat I can make an impact?
It's that.
The more money you make, themore impact you can have.
But being able to say, you know,I'm gonna use this money to grow
(31:01):
these businesses so I can helpmore businesses.
Russel (31:03):
You look at all the causes that we can raise an
insane amount of money forovernight just by hearing a
story or something along thoselines.
But that's a small portion ofanyone's probably day-to-day
dollars.
So people are only, what is it?
Uh, what's the old saying?
We're only using 10% of ourbrains.
We're only using 10% of ourwallets when it comes to impact.
(31:23):
So maybe a healthy reminder forus out there to leverage more of
our wallet in a way that helpseveryone.
So, alright, well I'm inspired,I'm gonna make sure my wallet
does that today.
Well, I guess maybe, you know,this is always an interesting
question in how we look at this,but if you could just reflect on
(31:43):
one nugget of advice that youcould go back and give your
younger self, what would thatbe?
Kelly (31:51):
Hmm, that's a good one.
What's kind of resonating in mymind right now is it doesn't
have to be this hard.
So I think that there's a partof us that thinks.
What we're doing has to bereally hard, especially in the
beginning.
'cause there's a part of youthat is going to want to not,
you know, obviously as anagency, if you say I'm gonna do
(32:13):
this thing, you have to do thatthing, right?
But especially as a new one,there's this piece where you
have to prove yourself and say,I can do this and I can do this,
and I can do this and I can dothis.
And it just compounds in a weirdway.
That takes a lot more time andbandwidth.
We all hear it, focus on onething and do that one thing
really well.
That will mean somethingdifferent to each of you at each
(32:35):
of the stages of your journey.
But at least think about it.
At this stage, we do one thingvery, very well and it's
allowing a lot of differentpieces, not only personally, but
professionally to streamline, beeasier, having more impact.
Uh, for me, I think probablycoming from, you know, with the
(32:57):
horses and the farm, it's a verytangible work car kind of thing.
What we do as agencies or, youknow, as my dad said, not
working with your body, butworking with your brain.
It shifts, right?
It doesn't have to be hard to beimpactful or good.
It just has to solve theproblem.
So, and that problem does nothave to be huge.
It can be very small, right insize.
(33:19):
It could be very impactful, butstill very small in size and
understanding what it is thatyou want to do.
I see a lot of people trying todo too many things and it's
clouding a lot of things.
It's clouding the contract, it'sclouding the relationship.
It's, it's at worst clouding theresults.
I do this thing.
So what we've done to do that iswe refer out, Hey, you want this
(33:40):
thing?
I've made this relationship.
I know they do amazing work.
You go there for that, and wehave a relationship between us
where they're not gonna step onour toes and we're not gonna
step on their toes, right?
Mm-hmm.
But we do this one thing very,very well.
Russel (33:52):
It's talked about, kinda your position in gurus like
David Baker and Blair Enns thatyou know, that it feels so
difficult to send someonesomewhere else, right?
Especially if we are still insome of that survival mode a
little bit that we're takingfood off our table and giving'em
somewhere else.
But one of the things I think isalways an important reminder as
we go down this positioningpiece is when you do that,
(34:15):
you're solidifying.
Even more so in the mind of thatperson you're talking about.
'cause that's a disconnect tothem.
A little bit of, oh, now Iunderstand more about what you
do because you're sending mesomewhere else so I can be a
better advocate for you in theworld about what you do to do.
And I feel like it's a trust,respect
Kelly (34:33):
thing, you know?
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
You're like, oh wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
We'll do that.
Right.
I did that recently to, um,somebody outta Athens and the
results have been fantastic.
We could not have gotten theresults that this guy did Right.
For, to solve the problem thatour client wanted.
Russel (34:51):
No,
Kelly (34:51):
perfect.
We're still do the services wellthat he hired us for, you know
what I mean?
But we didn't cloud lots ofthings.
I didn't jumble up myoperations.
I didn't cause myself lots ofstress.
I didn't, I just knew that if Isent that person there, that
that other company would solvethat problem in a really good
way.
Russel (35:07):
Well it, it's gonna always, I also try to find weird
metrics to measure success inthe world.
And it's, um, start measuringhow many people you send away,
not how many people you close.
And, uh, I'd be curious to see acorrelation, uh, over time in
that measurement.
So, um, well, wonderfulconversation.
(35:27):
All good things come to an end.
So as someone that's been a longtime entrepreneur.
Are entrepreneurs born or arethey made
Kelly (35:39):
Both.
I'll say both.
You tell?
Yeah, that I, I think that thereare some, I think I was forged
because I had to.
Now I'm just vastlyunemployable.
So here we are.
Russel (35:56):
You know, I, I don't, I hear that a lot that
unemployable and I felt, Iremember feeling this, my exact
self, and I haven't put it tothe tests either, but I don't,
what's so funny is I just thinkthe best hired we ever made,
certainly in the agency werepeople that.
Had been owners mm-hmm.
And weren't anymore.
So, uh, maybe that's another,either that's a limiting belief
(36:17):
we carry as owners, or we'vegotta turn the tables out there
in the world to say like, thisis who you need and want to
hire.
I don't know which one's the, Ithink,
Kelly (36:26):
I think for us in, I made a strategic leadership hire
really high level for operationsearly this year.
And what they have brought tothe table and how we're
structuring who we're hiring,you know, all of that kind of
stuff.
I, in earlier years would haveand have hired people who could
(36:47):
wear a lot of hats who, um, werein that ownership.
They didn't get their businesshealth ground that they had, you
know, the knowledge and all ofthat kind of stuff.
As we are growing and scalingthat no longer fits.
It's too much.
They want to do too much.
They see too much that it's,this is our process and this is
how we do it, and we make surethat each piece has their piece.
(37:09):
Um, but I have seen that changewithin the last maybe six, nine
months of how and who is thebest fit as we scale.
It's been an interesting'cause Iwould've agreed with you even a
year ago.
Russel (37:21):
Interesting.
I think that's the other thingis it goes back to what we were
talking about previously and,and just now is the power of the
journey it worked for onedoesn't necessarily work for the
other, and a belief that wastoday doesn't work for tomorrow.
And we just have to explore andgo down that journey.
And that's a great takeaway.
Well, if people wanna know moreabout Dapper Codes and that
(37:42):
journey that you're on, wherecan they go?
Kelly (37:44):
Go to dapper codes.com.
Give us, uh, a look around thereand you can find me on, uh,
LinkedIn or Facebook if you lookme up.
Kelly Gordon.
Russel (37:52):
Sweet.
And do you still do horse stuff?
Kelly (37:54):
I don't.
I gave it up years ago.
Russel (37:56):
Okay.
Do you miss it?
Kelly (37:59):
I do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Russel (38:00):
Is that in your future?
Again,
Kelly (38:03):
hard to say.
Russel (38:04):
TBD.
Kelly (38:05):
Yeah.
Russel (38:06):
Well, thank you, Kelly for taking the time outta your
busy schedule to come chat withus today about just the notion
of going from survival tomission driven, the power of
positioning, the power of beingauthentic, and so many other
great takeaways.
Really appreciate you taking thetime to share that with us
today.
Kelly (38:21):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a really goodconversation.
I, I've gone on another podcast,but this has been excellent, so
Oh, good.
I love it.
Well, thank
Russel (38:29):
you.
That means a lot.
I appreciate that.
Thank you for listening to anagency story podcast where every
story helps you write your own.
Subscribe, share, and join usagain for more real stories,
lessons learned, andbreakthroughs ahead.
What's next?
You'll want to visitanagencystory.com/podcast and
follow us on Instagram at anagency story for the latest
(38:51):
updates.
Kelly (38:54):
I think what, just what I alluded to before of, you know,
and I got outta school and youknow, went to work for that
company and kind of doing thefull circle thing, um.
To me, that's recent in my mind,but it's incredibly impactful to
me to see like, oh wow, lookwhat you can do in 15 years.
Like, that company has goneinsane and they've rebranded and
all that kind of stuff.
But one of the CEO of thatcompany, um, his name is Jeff,
(39:18):
and he, my, my first day on theinternship back in 2008 gave me
two books.
I was like, what books do I needto read?
Okay, whatever.
Uh, he gave me two books.
Um, I read them both, andbecause of course I did.
And I was like, oh, these aregood.
Full stop.
Right?
Just the other day, maybe end oflast year, I was like, let me
(39:39):
pull these books back out.
And so I did.
It is by far.
By far the best book on brandingand messaging I have ever read.
And I have read a lot in thelast 15 years.
So I messaged him and I waslike, I thought it was good that
day, but I can't even listen toit on audiobook because like you
(39:59):
get like three sentences in andyou're like, I have to take a
note.
Like it is that good.
It's called Made to Stick.
Um, it's by the Heath Brothers.
Russel (40:07):
Okay.
It is.
Kelly (40:08):
Incredible if you're anywhere in branding,
positioning, messaging.
Um, but it was funny'cause Imessaged Jeff and I was like, I,
I thought it was good that day,but I just picked it back up and
my mind has blown and he justmessaged back, you're welcome.
So it was just one of thosethings that, again, that's the
journey who I was then wasn'tready for the message.
Russel (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Kelly (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
And so I had to progress.
I had to become somebody elsefor that then to make sense and
work.
Russel (40:38):
Hmm.
It reminds me that I need toreread more books than I've read
in the past.
Yeah.
That's up.
Yeah.
Good reminder Made to Stick.
Love a good book recommendation.
Thanks for sharing that.
Absolutely.
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turned Business coach,sold my agency and now helps
agency leaders create theirideal business.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show today,everyone.
I have Kelly Gordon with DapperCodes here today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today.
Kelly,
Kelly (00:38):
thank you so much for having me.
I'm pumped to be here.
Russel (00:41):
Good.
Well, I'm looking forward to itas well.
Straight outta the gate.
Tell us what Dapper Codes doesand who you do it for.
Kelly (00:48):
Absolutely.
So these days we are reallyfocusing on white label, SEO for
other agencies.
That is our big push.
Um, where I came from, gosh, wayback in the day.
Um, 2018, uh, is when I gotstarted.
Um, I was outta school for webdesign and development.
That's where I started, movedinto marketing obviously before
even Facebook ads was a thing.
(01:09):
Um, and moved forward.
One of the big things that we dostill for direct clients, in
dapper is messaging, whetherthat's for organic or for paid.
It's all around the messaging.
If the messaging and thepositioning is not right, it
doesn't matter.
Nothing's really gonna work.
But those are the two mainthings that we've got going on
this days.
Russel (01:25):
Uh, and did you just make me feel ancient by
referring to 2018 as way back inthe day?
Kelly (01:32):
Very unintentionally to me, it seems like a long time
ago.
Russel (01:36):
Uh, I, I get it.
It's all, it's all a relativething.
Um, but, uh, fair, fair enough,fair enough.
Well, I certainly want to hearmore about what you've done in
your agency and some of the coolthings going on there.
But, uh, let's walk back in timereal quick and.
Well, what were you doing?
What inspired you as a youthwhen you look back and that
(01:56):
maybe was formative in the, inthe career and path that you
eventually took?
Kelly (02:00):
Yeah, so, um, when I was, yo, I mean, from before I could
walk till kind of mid twenties,I rode horses competitively.
Okay.
Um, I'm an inventor.
For those of you who knows whatthat means.
Um, grew up in pony club and allof that.
Hold on.
Russel (02:13):
But for those that don't know what that means, what is,
what is that?
It's basically
Kelly (02:16):
the triathlon of the English riding world.
So there's cross country, whichis jumps outside, and then
there's jumps like in a ring,and then there's dressage, which
is, if you've seen it, if youhaven't looked up, there's a
Snoop Dogg thing that he doeswatching dressage for the first
time.
So it was Kevin Hart and youshould watch it just even if you
don't dress
Russel (02:36):
dressage.
Is that how you say dressage?
Kelly (02:38):
D-R-E-S-S-A-G-E.
Yeah.
Is
Russel (02:40):
that like when they do the kind of fancy stepping,
like, that is my very laymanstuff.
Kelly (02:45):
Yeah.
Russel (02:45):
Okay.
All right.
Alright.
Alright.
Very cool.
So,
Kelly (02:47):
um, I did that, you know, we didn't have any money, so I,
I worked on those farms, uh,forever and my dad was a, a
cabinet maker and his thing washe came to, I was like 16, I
remember it like it wasyesterday.
He died in 2019.
But he came to me and he said, Idon't want you to work with your
body.
I want you to work with yourbrain.
(03:08):
Pretty much was the sum of thisconversation.
'Cause he was older at the time.
His body was giving out, youknow what I mean?
Like, that's just one of thosethings.
And he was like, I just don'twant this for you.
And it was just a, it took meyears to figure that out and
find a path and like all ofthat.
But I, I mean, I'm just turned39.
I remember that.
Crazy like it was yesterday, youknow what I mean?
(03:29):
Yeah.
And
Russel (03:29):
being able to, and that really set the path for you to
say it did, it's gonna be brain.
Yeah.
Kelly (03:34):
I wasn't really sure like how to navigate that.
I mean, that was, what I hadbeen doing was, had been my
whole life for forever.
That's what I was gonna do forforever.
And with some guidance from himand things like that, I did go,
um, got one of those acceleratedassociate's degrees in web
design and development.
Actually.
Is this
Russel (03:53):
from like a code school?
Like did you go to like a Yeah,an old fashioned.
Okay.
Kelly (03:57):
Yeah.
Well,
Russel (03:57):
I mean real, real quick and I wanna pinpoint on that.
'cause I, back when I was anagency, I was a big fan of the
code schools.
I felt like they were at leastattempting to solve a very big
market need of don't spend fouryears, get people kickstarted,
grab people from other careerfields and get them involved.
So I was a big fan of hoodschools, but I also.
A lot of times saw that theresults, especially dependent
(04:18):
upon the person, didn't alwayspan out.
What was your experience like inschool?
Amazing.
Kelly (04:22):
The absolute be, I would tell anybody, like I'm very much
in the, we don't all need to goto four year universities,
right?
Those that do, please.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, go on and do the thing.
Lawyers and doctors and all ofthat kind of stuff, what
everyone do, but the vastmajority don't.
I'm very personally, uh,opinionated in that position.
I was homeschooled in middleschool.
I went to elementary school, um,but homeschooled in middle
(04:43):
school.
I literally didn't do anythingfor high school.
I have a GED, um, and got thatafter I left home and there's a
lot of things, but sure, got myGED, uh, went to and got an
associated degree.
Literally, probably at thisstage, the best decision I ever
made.
Period.
Um, being able to like get in, Iimmediately got, um, internships
(05:05):
in one of the largest companiesin our area.
They actually are, became clientat one point, uh, in the last
little bit for some consulting,which is a really huge full
circle moment for all of us.
You know what I mean?
So like,
Russel (05:18):
nice.
Kelly (05:18):
I don't think anybody in my graduating class does what I
do.
So I think, you know, but thesame, I think if we go to, you
know, the big universities hereis the closest one is like
Clemson or Walford's down road.
If we, um, look at who graduatedfrom what, from there, I think
it's probably the same thing,right?
Everybody goes their own paths.
There's a lot of decisions thatare made when you're younger,
right?
But for me, absolute bestdecision would recommend it.
(05:41):
If you see your, that that's theroute that you wanna go, then go
to one of those schools.
It is not worth going anywhereelse.
Russel (05:48):
Okay.
Now I am curious too, becauseI've seen it as well, or at
least from my own kind ofexperience in that, that, I
mean, you've seen like a hardcharger, smart, right?
Get it done attitude, and thosedo succeed, right?
It's the exposure to that worldthat you can just grab that fire
and, and take on, and thenthey're.
I don't know if some, maybe someof these schools with their
pitching say.
(06:08):
Right.
I, I've also heard the storieswhere people show up in those
classes and they play videogames and, and don't get that
experience, but we'll net thatout and say, you gotta leverage
the opportunity and experience.
Right.
You gotta
Kelly (06:19):
leverage it.
You gotta be an adult, you know,find the best program.
There's lots of good and bad allover the place.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Regardless, but yeah.
Russel (06:26):
Which one did you do?
Kelly (06:28):
ECPI actually, I heard about that, so I guess they're
all over, but there's one herein Greenville.
Russel (06:32):
Okay.
Good to know.
Good to know.
As you're kind of, youdescribing that journey,
obviously, and it seems likethat's worked out really well
for you when you were goingthrough that.
Back then, in that time period,I mean, did the path feel
certain and confident in that,or were, were you questioning
yourself as you were goingthrough this every
Kelly (06:48):
day for like 10 years?
So it's fine.
You know, it's one of thosethings where you like, you know,
you realize like, oh my God, I'mvastly unemployable.
Cool.
So like, now I have to make thiswork, One of my best friends has
a saying that's like, it'samazing what you can do and you
don't have a choice.
So a lot of what I did wasbecause I realized, uh, in that
(07:10):
I, I financially supported myparents for a long time for lots
of reasons.
And so I, I ultimately realizedI had the internship at that
company.
They offered me a job, wasn'tenough money, especially back in
2008.
Um, and it was one of thosethings where I was like, the
only way that I'm gonna make themoney that I've gotta make.
I was very young then, um, ofbeing able to say, I've gotta go
(07:31):
out on my own.
I have to figure this out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but this was obviouslybefore even podcasts or Facebook
groups or coaching or mentor,you know, like literally just
had to figure out the hard wayand find out what was going on
Um, so I, my head of ops nowsays, you have been doing
everything on hard mode for thelast 15 years.
I'm not sure why.
Let's just make this easier, youknow?
(07:51):
Yeah.
You know, it's one of thosethings, but um, probably having
to do with me being on thespectrum and like all that kind
of stuff.
But ultimately, no, every dayfor a long time just was like,
you just have to put one foot infront of the other.
I
Russel (08:04):
mean, that's a tough responsibility to carry.
And when you look back at thatand, and as you're kind of
saying, right, there's nothinglike a have to and, uh, having
your back against the wall.
I mean, when you just think, isthat how you thrive best, you
know, when you maybe look backon it, is it just.
Look, I didn't have an option,so I wasn't even, I just wasn't
even thinking I was justplowing.
Kelly (08:25):
It just was what it was.
Even kind of, now, you know, Iknow that that's what was
happening, but I don't see adifferent route.
I don't see a different option.
It just is what had to be done.
Russel (08:37):
So walk us up to the point of like, when was the
official start of your agency?
What led to that?
And we'll go from there.
So
Kelly (08:45):
I started freelancing in 2008, um, right outta school
and, um, officially created thecompany in 2015, um, in March of
2015.
Um, I had had some on and offjobs.
I mean, I was not making enoughmoney the first year, so even in
2015.
The first year that I was like abusiness business.
I think the business profit waslike$5,000.
(09:06):
Like
Russel (09:06):
yeah.
Kelly (09:07):
It just, that's
Russel (09:08):
fair.
Yeah.
Kelly (09:08):
Like, you know, here we're, but just learned all the
things.
I was able to pay the bills, Iwas able to make more than I
could have, uh, than I wasmaking when I was a bartender
before.
I bartended, I, I worked in, inveterinary offices.
I was the practice manager ofsurgery for Specialty Center,
during those kind of 2008 to2015 trying to keep everything
paid.
But it would just became, itactually was when I was working
(09:30):
at that emergency center or thatspecialty center.
There was an ER there too, butthe boss was horrible.
Like, yeah,
Russel (09:36):
that'll be it.
Kelly (09:38):
I was 26 7 at the time and I got shingles from the
stress and to this day will haveflare ups if I get too stressed.
Oh my gosh.
But like, it never really goesaway.
Okay.
Russel (09:49):
There, there, there's inspiration to not be a bad boss
out there.
Mm-hmm.
Or get rid of bad bosses becauseto what you're saying, like
you're causing lifelongillnesses if you're a bad boss.
Yeah.
I don't do
Kelly (09:58):
that to people.
Yeah.
'cause in that, in thatenvironment, obviously in lots
of digital environments, you getpaid ahead of time.
Um, in those environments fromtraditional vines, you get paid
at the end.
Right?
So the last monthly payment Igot mine, I think monthly or
whatever pay that came in waslike my last day and the
horrible boss reversed it.
(10:19):
Now, I also didn't have themoney to go to a lawyer or to do
whatever, but that was like whatI needed to get.
Yeah.
Into that next month, paying thebills.
It was like right on the first,right?
Everything is due, you know,like all that kind of thing.
And I mean, he wasn't gonna doanything about it, you know?
And I didn't have money to go toa lawyer to do anything about
it.
So you just have to walk away atthat point.
But lots of hurdles to get towhere we are today.
Russel (10:42):
Indeed, indeed.
Uh, all that is great is forgedthrough fire.
And we're gonna kind of bouncearound the chronological aspect
or maybe foreshadow some things.
But I, I know where you're attoday, right?
Is not the younger version ofyourself, but that you have a
very strategic long-term plan interms of how you're going about
this business.
(11:02):
How clear was that plan in theearly days of your business?
Nonexistent.
Non-existent.
Okay.
And that makes sense, right?
I, I'm not surprised, but youknow, some folks do operate that
way.
Kelly (11:13):
Absolutely.
You know, my view, and obviouslythis is opinion based on where I
came from and like my justsubjective being human, that
there are moments without havinglike a clear way to say it.
So like.
We didn't have any money.
The well pump broke.
Right.
We didn't have water coming.
He couldn't, my dad couldn't fixthe well pump.
(11:33):
There was no running water.
You know what I mean?
Like I've lived in places Wow.
Where there's no heat, wherethere's no air.
I've lived in a place with myparents where they can only
afford a one bedroom, so I wassleeping on a couch.
Like, so coming from likeunderstanding that, and I'm sure
there's lots of people that'lllisten to this, that can like
relate to that.
People always say that like,money buys happiness.
(11:54):
It doesn't.
But it can buy some comfort,right?
Yes.
And so like, like you understandthat that's a thing, but then
when you become morecomfortable, you realize that
the questions that you can askyourself or the thought
processes that you can have ashift.
(12:18):
From, I have to do this thingbecause I have to pay the bill,
I have to do this, I've gotthis, I've got, you know what I
mean?
That overshadows, any ability tosay, I have a mission in life
that I see now that I've come tohere is a privilege, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's based legitimately infinances.
Right?
(12:38):
And so like being able to getyourself to that point.
Mine very few do.
Yeah.
And then very few understandlogically what's happening,
yeah.
In that moment, or being able toreflectively, say literally I
was trying to pay the bills,period, trying to keep the
lights on, trying to make surethey didn't take the car, try
to, you know, like all of thesethings, you can't think of a
(13:00):
mission, you have a
Russel (13:01):
vision
Kelly (13:02):
that's to stay safe, right?
So the comfort that it buys isnot necessarily happiness.
It builds for that, but itbuilds towards the ability to
relax.
Yeah.
And when you relax, you can freeup your frontal lobe to think of
other things.
And then once you start tothinking of other things, at
that point you can start forwardthinking.
Russel (13:25):
Yeah, fascinating.
I mean, there's a reason why thebottom of Maslow's hierarchy of
needs is survival and security.
And it does absolutely changehow we look at the world, how we
operate.
And I think you talk about areal point, and I talk about
this with a lot of agencyowners, is the survival mindset
is great for just that survival.
And in my experience andobservation a lot of times is
(13:46):
once we're out of that, once weget to that level of
comfortability that youmentioned.
It becomes a little morelimiting.
The, some of the things that weused in survival mode are
counterintuitive to the nextphase, but that a big important
part of that next phase isbecoming more mission driven
and, and establishing a purpose
Kelly (14:05):
that when we hear the statement, this has only been
something in the last few yearsthat I really figured out, is
when you hear the whatever it isthat says it's not the
destination, it's a journey,right?
That you become the person.
You need to become to do thenext thing.
That's what that is.
And when you don't have thebottom ma ops pyramid, you don't
(14:26):
have the security.
You cannot think that likethere's a wall.
Like you're never going to getto that place until you level
up.
Honestly, financially, right.
Coming from somebody'sexperience that like that's what
gets you there.
Now, that level of financialsecurity may be different,
right?
Yeah.
Literally, that could be$1,500 amonth, literally, right?
(14:48):
You'd be really surprised howsmall that number actually is,
but it's consistent, right?
Like they need that to come into be able to even consider what
the next step might be.
Russel (14:59):
Yeah.
Well I remember when I wascollege and starting out a
family and I worked at a bank,and what I always wanted is like
I wanted some and I would seebank accounts and I would see
how much interest they wouldearn, and mine was literally
$1,500 a month.
it's like, will you just loanme?
You know, I think it was like atthe time was interest rate
$250,000 and I won't touch your$250,000.
(15:20):
I just want your interest.
Mm-hmm.
That I can, I can survive hereand, and yeah.
I totally think of my earlyagency days of, it'd be hard to
start an agency later in lifejust because of what you can get
by on lifewise, income wise.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our com Yeah.
Our creatures of comfort seembecome more expensive.
Mm-hmm.
And that makes that a littlemore rough.
(15:42):
What allowed you to get to that?
Kind of past survival mode andtransition more into a
mission-driven mindset.
Kelly (15:50):
Grit, for lack of a better way to put it.
Of, of literally justregardless.
I follow, um, Andy Ell, ifanybody knows who that is.
Um, but literally just theability of the discipline of no
matter what's going on, itdoesn't matter how you feel, it
doesn't matter what's happening.
You literally, you get up andyou do the things that you have
to do every single day.
(16:10):
So that you can get to thatfuture state.
That could be years from now.
I did and woke up and workedseven days a week for forever to
the detriment of my health.
If you go back and look farenough at pictures, right, like
it's a whole thing that nothingelse mattered, period.
Now, do I recommend that?
Not necessarily.
However, that was just my path,right?
(16:31):
That I just did the thing.
Russel (16:33):
Yeah.
And hard work is certainlyright.
We gotta bring hard work to thistable.
And it sounds like that's nostranger to you.
And I think a lot of peoplearen't afraid of work, but when
you think more specificallyabout like, what did that hard
work apply to that you like,okay, once I solved this, this,
this was a very helpful thing orimportant to my sales, my
(16:55):
journey.
Okay.
Yeah.
And what, and yeah, I, I mean
Kelly (16:58):
what I learned it the hard way obnoxiously.
Yeah.
Um, there are lots of easierways to learn that now with
YouTube and training and thingslike that.
But there is absolutely a reasonwhen you ask the richest people
in the world what was theirfirst job and what was their
number one skill they sales.
Right.
Interesting.
And that, to me, understandingthat and realizing that that was
(17:18):
happening.
That I could then say, what'smaking that happen?
I had took a real introspectiveapproach What's making that
happen?
That's where I got to mymessaging and positioning Which,
if you guys scroll back farenough on my Facebook or my
LinkedIn, you'll see thatprogression.
Of like how that started to cometogether.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I frame it what I call partof my triangulation method,
(17:40):
which is our creativepositioning who I help, how I
help, a mechanism of that?
And then being able tocommunicate that in a way that
makes sense at the stage.
But that's kind of where thatoriginated for me.
Russel (17:51):
Yeah, that's becoming more talked about and never at
least how much people areliving.
That notion is varied, but thisnotion that positioning is
important for any business, butspecifically for an agency.
But I love what you sharedthere, and in using your
Facebook as a reference point ofhow much that I encourage folks
that it's a journey, not adestination, and that it's an
evolving thing and that every.
(18:12):
Day or however time period goesby that we need to refine it a
little bit more and articulateit a little bit more and connect
with it just a little bit more.
And you said it so perfectlythat that's a journey and, but
that, that's an importantjourney to go on.
Kelly (18:28):
I think the biggest thing that.
An issue now is the idea thateverything should be really
quick, mm-hmm.
I think that just as a culture,right, it's taken me the better
part of a decade to really honein on that message.
So literally at this point youpost a Facebook message and, and
or Facebook post.
(18:49):
I do.
A lot of the, I mean, probably80 plus percent of what we've
made as a business has comeorganically, right?
Through platforms, through themessaging, and then people
inbound.
To respond.
And the things that I say is themessaging that we do organic
regardless of business,regardless of what agency or
landscaping coming or whatever,whether it's organic or paid, it
really doesn't matter.
The messaging is exactly thesame.
(19:10):
Once it works, it works.
One of them is just fueling it.
Can you afford the CPLs andCPAs?
If so, great.
Russel (19:16):
Yeah.
I mean, thank you for sharingthat.
I mean Right.
A decade or, or, right.
That's what I, I think I oftentalk a lot about is that solving
something really hard, right?
They talk about simple is thehardest thing to do in this
world.
Mm-hmm.
But how important getting tosimplicity is, and it just takes
a fricking long time, and it'snot the sexiest messaging in
(19:38):
2025 to say, you know, I don'thave the quick hit for you.
I don't have, you know, solvethis in very quickly.
But I think that's a little bitof the platform I'm on is like,
let's call a spade a spade hereand say, um.
What we're got to do is going totake a long time, and it's gonna
be hard.
It's just what it's, and prepourselves for that.
And so we get less upset ordisenfranchised or likely to
(20:02):
stop that path because it's notproducing those results.
So thank you for championing,uh, a uh, I mean it's true
through lived experience.
Kelly (20:11):
Yeah.
It's just true, right?
I mean, especially none of us, Imean.
In the way that like even AI oranything that's super quick
right now, especially in theagency space, anything that
seems like it's harder that youhave to do for yourself that is
literally going to separate themen from the boys as they say in
the south, like that's adifferentiator.
And I think it's also importantto note, and I'm sure you
(20:32):
probably are similar, interestedhow you think about this, but
um.
If you had told me when Istarted, it would take this
long, I would not have started.
Yeah.
Like I would've been like, youknow what, lemme do something
else.
But arguably to get to the levelthat I am now, it would've taken
the same period of time.
Like to become very good at whatyou do.
It just takes time.
(20:53):
Yeah.
It, it just, it have toexperience it, you have to run
into all of these differentscenarios and do you know, it's
that saying that's like, youknow, I don't wanna pay you.
$500 for 30 minutes.
Well, how about the 10 or 15years that I learned to do that
in 30 minutes?
You know what I mean?
That's what you know.
You do something long enough andyou're good enough at something
that that starts to be whathappens.
Russel (21:13):
Yeah, it's interesting where the industries, where
that's accepted and where it'snot.
And I feel, you know, right.
Doctors and lawyers, likenobody.
I mean, insurance is a problem,one of those scenarios.
But lawyers, right, we, we justgenerally accept that we're
gonna pay$500 an hour and we'regonna also pay that when they're
writing us an email that it'snot just for when they're
(21:33):
actually giving us advice, butjust to read something or look
at something.
Because we know they went toschool but I don't know, I, we
gotta find a campaign to give.
Marketing in that same genre.
I think especially in 2025, it'sgotten, it's as complicated as
ever today, and it'll be.
Exponentially more complicatedtomorrow, and it just is gonna
(21:55):
take all the more time forpeople to build the knowledge,
experience, and skills to pullthis off.
So how do we do that?
Kelly (22:02):
Interestingly, and this is from experience, there's a
couple of factors at play.
One.
I get on a whole soapbox aboutbro marketers, okay, don't have
to do that today, but that is awhole thing, right?
That nothing is quick, nothingis easy, and they're turning
through people like crazy and itis causing an issue in the
industry and has been for awhile.
(22:22):
Okay?
That's a problem that needs tostop.
Probably not going to stop untilit's rejected from the.
Consumers, which I think isstarting to happen.
They're sick of that.
They understand that things arenot quick and fast and easy and
cheap.
The second piece, which has onlybeen something that I've learned
in the last probably couple ofyears, is if you're in the right
room, that happens.
So then you say, okay, it's thequality of person or client or
(22:45):
company that we are appealingto, and then their belief on how
that works.
So it's, you know, even the waythat I would operate now, which
is not even anywhere near someof what our clients do.
Like if somebody, if I have aproblem, a real problem, and
somebody says, I can solve thisproblem, this is how I would do
it.
You build trust, you buildwhatever, and they can do it.
(23:06):
And it's five times whatsomebody else can do, but I know
it will be right and it will bewithin the amount of time that
they said that they would do it.
I'm gonna pay them for it.
I'm not gonna pay money oranything.
I'm not gonna pay anybody toGuinea pig.
And that's not even to, youknow, have any problem with
those that are in the level ofgoing out and needing to learn.
(23:27):
Y'all need to, I get that.
But you don't get to play uphere.
Not yet.
Yeah.
And so everyone, consumers,clients, agencies, freelancers,
need to understand that there isa difference.
So the way that I outline thatis there's, uh, three stages to
business validation, leverage,and scale.
Most starting agency owners,right, are in that validation
(23:50):
stage themselves.
Everybody wants to charge andplay with leverage and scale,
but you don't get to do that,not until you've gotten the
experience to do that.
Russel (23:58):
Very fascinating.
I was just jotting down somenotes of like, oh, it'd be cool
to talk about this, this, andthis.
So I don't know if we're gonnaget to all those, but a quick, I
guess one we can get throughquickly is this, this notion too
that, I don't know where we'reat on this, on a scale yet, but
Right.
That we also have to get ourclients to understand we're
doing a hard thing, that even ifwe are good at our product and
service, that we also cannotsell.
(24:19):
Any, this can be quick at alland you're just gonna have to
walk that journey and just beingupfront.
But the other piece that I maybehear is, we can dive in a little
deeper on is just because youcan sell it doesn't mean your
product is finished.
Or that it doesn't need to bepolished, innovated, expanded,
whatever, or not even expanded.
I don't even say that word.
(24:40):
Um, polished and innovated isthe words I would use.
And I'll
Kelly (24:43):
go, I'll go further on that.
The biggest thing I say in salesis just because you can sell
something doesn't mean youshould.
Russel (24:49):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Of course, for them and for
Kelly (24:52):
you.
Yeah.
If for you, somebody's not worthhaving promise, but as far as
them right, maybe that's not theright thing for them, even if
you can sell it to'em.
It's kind of going back to alittle bit of, uh, you know, I
think the vast majority ofagency owners today are trained
or encounter some derivative ofSam Oven's original sales
(25:16):
script.
Which is what's killing ourindustry today.
Great.
For the time I actually respecthim incredibly right.
For what he did and built.
But it's what has led to the bromarketing and the pushy sales,
and that just because I can sellsomething doesn't mean that I
should.
Russel (25:32):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Something that is also standingout there is, I don't think, I
mean, there are, there are folksout there that are doing this
intentionally and just wannamake money.
But I think there are a lot ofgenuine, authentic people out
there that are just right.
Just always navigating thisserve and do the best thing for
the client and also continue tomake this thing survive.
(25:53):
Going back to our, our survivalthing.
Um, but it seems to me, and justkind of talking through this,
that, uh, an important aspect isjust a really real.
The awareness of where you're aton that journey and that it
could be okay to say to clientslike, look, we're kind of just
figuring this thing out.
We're not gonna charge as highas price over here.
'cause you know, we're gonnagive you a discount for our
learning curve here.
(26:14):
But just being aware of wherewe're at on that journey is my
product, Polish, refined, etcetera.
And being authentically, that'sall we
Kelly (26:21):
need.
Some transparency and some monywill go a long way.
Right?
And it, it's just one of thosealways does.
It
Russel (26:26):
seems like
Kelly (26:27):
always does.
Right.
Crazy.
Um.
Because again, the size of theclients that those people should
be playing with are fine.
They just want some help.
You know what I mean?
They're gonna be real needy.
They're gonna need a lot oftime.
But in that neediness, you'regonna learn a lot of things, so
you need that.
Right.
But it seems like there's areally large group of these
agents who owners that aren't.
(26:48):
Prepared to do the thing thatthey say for the client that
they say that they can do it forand want to have the
superiority, right?
Like that just doesn't work inthat way.
So, so long as you're verytransparent and say, you know
what, I'm just getting started,right?
This is what we can do.
This is what we're trying, I'mnot sure what hurdles we're
gonna run in last time we didit, we did this and this is how
we, you know what I mean?
Like you'd be really surprisedwhat somebody would do just to
(27:11):
get some help.
Russel (27:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And especially if that wasauthentic, like, look, I see
this and this and this, but Ialso know I don't see this,
this, and this.
That's a, that'd be aninteresting sales conversation.
And even in this
Kelly (27:23):
day and age, it's like, you know, but my mentor does
this, this, and this, and I goto these regular calls and I can
bring some of these questions.
You know what I mean?
Like, there's lots of ways thatthis happens, but
Russel (27:33):
yeah,
Kelly (27:34):
it just, there's some issues.
Russel (27:36):
That's fair.
We got some skeletons in ourcloset.
We gotta work out.
I wanna get more to, you know,we've been a fascinating
conversation, but I wanna getmore to, I really like the
mission and long-term kind ofvision and plan that you have
for the business.
Um, so I'm sure that willgetting a whole conversation
into itself.
So tell us what that is andwe'll go from there.
Kelly (27:57):
Absolutely.
So you.
One of the things that reallysticks out to me, um, in life is
when we lost everything.
Uh, the house, the car, the, allthe things, um, his business
tanked, all this kind of stuff.
When the economy went down itwas, if I was who I am today, I
(28:18):
could have helped thatsituation.
From a marketing standpoint,from a sales standpoint, I could
have, I now have those skills toat least slow it, stop it,
change it.
That that would not have beenthe outcome.
Um, and one of my biggestmissions in life, whether you
know, through dapp or whetherit's our white label, SEO, or
our direct to client, is thespider web effect.
(28:40):
When we work with a smallclient, yes, even in white
label, we're dealing with anagency, but they have individual
clients, and those individualclients own their business.
Same as our direct clients,right?
They have families, theiremployees have families or
contractors have families.
All of that.
If we can help them market theirbusiness and push forward how
many sales they get, how manyconversations they get, how many
(29:01):
Outbacks they get, then we getto impact.
Lots and lots of lives in waysthat we would never have met
these, these people, right?
But being able to be reallyhonest, be really transparent
and say, you may think thatthat's the right direction.
It's not.
This is, and this is the rightdirection because X, Y, and Z.
We want to do this so that wecan stop these things.
(29:23):
So.
Again, you same as we talkedabout in the beginning, you
never see a mission.
Early on, my mission was, youknow, no, don't, don't get
kicked out of where you'reliving.
Right?
Yeah.
Eat some food.
Um, but at this point it's howmany people can I help?
Because I know what that's gonnado to that family.
Russel (29:40):
And that's powerful.
Kelly (29:42):
Mm-hmm.
Russel (29:42):
And needed
Kelly (29:44):
trying to do the right thing.
Russel (29:46):
Well, I mean, that's why, you know, I, I liked your
story and this is why I do whatI do, is, uh, you know, that it
is that notion and I forgeteverything.
I love this and I forget somedays, so when I pay Amazon to do
something but the more money wecan put in the hands of small
businesses, it's gonna have afar better trickle down effect
(30:08):
or, spider web effect, as yousaid, than.
Then Yeah.
Um, putting it than anything.
Yeah.
The 90% of my dollar going intoJeff Bezos's pocket.
Kelly (30:17):
Right.
Going, I mean, we live, um, herepretty much 10 miles, 10 ish
miles from the epicenter of, um,Helene in Western North
Carolina, you know, and whatthey've had to do to rebuild and
all that kind of stuff.
Like we'll just go over thereand spend money.
Because that's the only thingthat matters.
You go over there and eat, yougo buy something.
You do the, you know, becausethat's how this works.
And it's just making sure that,you know, the only thing in life
(30:40):
that we really have any powerwith is our money.
I hate that.
But it, it just is, it is true.
It's not necessarily that Icreated the roles.
I just, you know, understandthem at this point.
So being able to say, how is itthat I can make an impact?
It's that.
The more money you make, themore impact you can have.
But being able to say, you know,I'm gonna use this money to grow
(31:01):
these businesses so I can helpmore businesses.
Russel (31:03):
You look at all the causes that we can raise an
insane amount of money forovernight just by hearing a
story or something along thoselines.
But that's a small portion ofanyone's probably day-to-day
dollars.
So people are only, what is it?
Uh, what's the old saying?
We're only using 10% of ourbrains.
We're only using 10% of ourwallets when it comes to impact.
(31:23):
So maybe a healthy reminder forus out there to leverage more of
our wallet in a way that helpseveryone.
So, alright, well I'm inspired,I'm gonna make sure my wallet
does that today.
Well, I guess maybe, you know,this is always an interesting
question in how we look at this,but if you could just reflect on
(31:43):
one nugget of advice that youcould go back and give your
younger self, what would thatbe?
Kelly (31:51):
Hmm, that's a good one.
What's kind of resonating in mymind right now is it doesn't
have to be this hard.
So I think that there's a partof us that thinks.
What we're doing has to bereally hard, especially in the
beginning.
'cause there's a part of youthat is going to want to not,
you know, obviously as anagency, if you say I'm gonna do
(32:13):
this thing, you have to do thatthing, right?
But especially as a new one,there's this piece where you
have to prove yourself and say,I can do this and I can do this,
and I can do this and I can dothis.
And it just compounds in a weirdway.
That takes a lot more time andbandwidth.
We all hear it, focus on onething and do that one thing
really well.
That will mean somethingdifferent to each of you at each
(32:35):
of the stages of your journey.
But at least think about it.
At this stage, we do one thingvery, very well and it's
allowing a lot of differentpieces, not only personally, but
professionally to streamline, beeasier, having more impact.
Uh, for me, I think probablycoming from, you know, with the
(32:57):
horses and the farm, it's a verytangible work car kind of thing.
What we do as agencies or, youknow, as my dad said, not
working with your body, butworking with your brain.
It shifts, right?
It doesn't have to be hard to beimpactful or good.
It just has to solve theproblem.
So, and that problem does nothave to be huge.
It can be very small, right insize.
(33:19):
It could be very impactful, butstill very small in size and
understanding what it is thatyou want to do.
I see a lot of people trying todo too many things and it's
clouding a lot of things.
It's clouding the contract, it'sclouding the relationship.
It's, it's at worst clouding theresults.
I do this thing.
So what we've done to do that iswe refer out, Hey, you want this
(33:40):
thing?
I've made this relationship.
I know they do amazing work.
You go there for that, and wehave a relationship between us
where they're not gonna step onour toes and we're not gonna
step on their toes, right?
Mm-hmm.
But we do this one thing very,very well.
Russel (33:52):
It's talked about, kinda your position in gurus like
David Baker and Blair Enns thatyou know, that it feels so
difficult to send someonesomewhere else, right?
Especially if we are still insome of that survival mode a
little bit that we're takingfood off our table and giving'em
somewhere else.
But one of the things I think isalways an important reminder as
we go down this positioningpiece is when you do that,
(34:15):
you're solidifying.
Even more so in the mind of thatperson you're talking about.
'cause that's a disconnect tothem.
A little bit of, oh, now Iunderstand more about what you
do because you're sending mesomewhere else so I can be a
better advocate for you in theworld about what you do to do.
And I feel like it's a trust,respect
Kelly (34:33):
thing, you know?
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
You're like, oh wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
We'll do that.
Right.
I did that recently to, um,somebody outta Athens and the
results have been fantastic.
We could not have gotten theresults that this guy did Right.
For, to solve the problem thatour client wanted.
Russel (34:51):
No,
Kelly (34:51):
perfect.
We're still do the services wellthat he hired us for, you know
what I mean?
But we didn't cloud lots ofthings.
I didn't jumble up myoperations.
I didn't cause myself lots ofstress.
I didn't, I just knew that if Isent that person there, that
that other company would solvethat problem in a really good
way.
Russel (35:07):
Well it, it's gonna always, I also try to find weird
metrics to measure success inthe world.
And it's, um, start measuringhow many people you send away,
not how many people you close.
And, uh, I'd be curious to see acorrelation, uh, over time in
that measurement.
So, um, well, wonderfulconversation.
(35:27):
All good things come to an end.
So as someone that's been a longtime entrepreneur.
Are entrepreneurs born or arethey made
Kelly (35:39):
Both.
I'll say both.
You tell?
Yeah, that I, I think that thereare some, I think I was forged
because I had to.
Now I'm just vastlyunemployable.
So here we are.
Russel (35:56):
You know, I, I don't, I hear that a lot that
unemployable and I felt, Iremember feeling this, my exact
self, and I haven't put it tothe tests either, but I don't,
what's so funny is I just thinkthe best hired we ever made,
certainly in the agency werepeople that.
Had been owners mm-hmm.
And weren't anymore.
So, uh, maybe that's another,either that's a limiting belief
(36:17):
we carry as owners, or we'vegotta turn the tables out there
in the world to say like, thisis who you need and want to
hire.
I don't know which one's the, Ithink,
Kelly (36:26):
I think for us in, I made a strategic leadership hire
really high level for operationsearly this year.
And what they have brought tothe table and how we're
structuring who we're hiring,you know, all of that kind of
stuff.
I, in earlier years would haveand have hired people who could
(36:47):
wear a lot of hats who, um, werein that ownership.
They didn't get their businesshealth ground that they had, you
know, the knowledge and all ofthat kind of stuff.
As we are growing and scalingthat no longer fits.
It's too much.
They want to do too much.
They see too much that it's,this is our process and this is
how we do it, and we make surethat each piece has their piece.
(37:09):
Um, but I have seen that changewithin the last maybe six, nine
months of how and who is thebest fit as we scale.
It's been an interesting'cause Iwould've agreed with you even a
year ago.
Russel (37:21):
Interesting.
I think that's the other thingis it goes back to what we were
talking about previously and,and just now is the power of the
journey it worked for onedoesn't necessarily work for the
other, and a belief that wastoday doesn't work for tomorrow.
And we just have to explore andgo down that journey.
And that's a great takeaway.
Well, if people wanna know moreabout Dapper Codes and that
(37:42):
journey that you're on, wherecan they go?
Kelly (37:44):
Go to dapper codes.com.
Give us, uh, a look around thereand you can find me on, uh,
LinkedIn or Facebook if you lookme up.
Kelly Gordon.
Russel (37:52):
Sweet.
And do you still do horse stuff?
Kelly (37:54):
I don't.
I gave it up years ago.
Russel (37:56):
Okay.
Do you miss it?
Kelly (37:59):
I do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Russel (38:00):
Is that in your future?
Again,
Kelly (38:03):
hard to say.
Russel (38:04):
TBD.
Kelly (38:05):
Yeah.
Russel (38:06):
Well, thank you, Kelly for taking the time outta your
busy schedule to come chat withus today about just the notion
of going from survival tomission driven, the power of
positioning, the power of beingauthentic, and so many other
great takeaways.
Really appreciate you taking thetime to share that with us
today.
Kelly (38:21):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a really goodconversation.
I, I've gone on another podcast,but this has been excellent, so
Oh, good.
I love it.
Well, thank
Russel (38:29):
you.
That means a lot.
I appreciate that.
Thank you for listening to anagency story podcast where every
story helps you write your own.
Subscribe, share, and join usagain for more real stories,
lessons learned, andbreakthroughs ahead.
What's next?
You'll want to visitanagencystory.com/podcast and
follow us on Instagram at anagency story for the latest
(38:51):
updates.
Kelly (38:54):
I think what, just what I alluded to before of, you know,
and I got outta school and youknow, went to work for that
company and kind of doing thefull circle thing, um.
To me, that's recent in my mind,but it's incredibly impactful to
me to see like, oh wow, lookwhat you can do in 15 years.
Like, that company has goneinsane and they've rebranded and
all that kind of stuff.
But one of the CEO of thatcompany, um, his name is Jeff,
(39:18):
and he, my, my first day on theinternship back in 2008 gave me
two books.
I was like, what books do I needto read?
Okay, whatever.
Uh, he gave me two books.
Um, I read them both, andbecause of course I did.
And I was like, oh, these aregood.
Full stop.
Right?
Just the other day, maybe end oflast year, I was like, let me
(39:39):
pull these books back out.
And so I did.
It is by far.
By far the best book on brandingand messaging I have ever read.
And I have read a lot in thelast 15 years.
So I messaged him and I waslike, I thought it was good that
day, but I can't even listen toit on audiobook because like you
(39:59):
get like three sentences in andyou're like, I have to take a
note.
Like it is that good.
It's called Made to Stick.
Um, it's by the Heath Brothers.
Russel (40:07):
Okay.
It is.
Kelly (40:08):
Incredible if you're anywhere in branding,
positioning, messaging.
Um, but it was funny'cause Imessaged Jeff and I was like, I,
I thought it was good that day,but I just picked it back up and
my mind has blown and he justmessaged back, you're welcome.
So it was just one of thosethings that, again, that's the
journey who I was then wasn'tready for the message.
Russel (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Kelly (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
And so I had to progress.
I had to become somebody elsefor that then to make sense and
work.
Russel (40:38):
Hmm.
It reminds me that I need toreread more books than I've read
in the past.
Yeah.
That's up.
Yeah.
Good reminder Made to Stick.
Love a good book recommendation.
Thanks for sharing that.
Absolutely.
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