February 8, 2023 • 46 mins
In Episode 45, Michael and Julian talk about
1. Progress on New Year's Resolutions. Some progress but some setbacks
2. Niagara Falls. We get sidetracked onto barrels and tightrope walking
3. How Americans Dress for Work. More casually than in Europe. Again, we get sidetracked by the school uniforms of our youth
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Available here to buy as a paperback, ebook, or audiobook
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Welcome to Episode 45. Julian,what we're going to speak about
today,
Julian Bishop (00:29):
I believe we're going to talk about Niagara
Falls, and what Americans werein the office.
Michael Moran (00:35):
But before we do, I need to check in with you,
Julian. How are your New Year'sresolutions going? So for
example, have you been swimmingin the sea? At least twice a
week?
Julian Bishop (00:47):
Yes. The Week begins on Sunday in America, and
Monday and Europe and Sunday inAmerica. And so even this week,
I've already done once, whichwas yesterday, Sunday, when we
were recording this on a Monday,that's going well, and the sea
actually is starting to getwarmer.
Michael Moran (01:04):
Okay. And you're training for your 5k. Within 25
minutes.
Julian Bishop (01:10):
I did my first and under 25 minutes, I might
say just under 25 minutes, butdid the first one. So that's
underway. So we have starting tobook the elements of our three
month, summer holiday.
Michael Moran (01:27):
Right? So do you know where it's starting?
Julian Bishop (01:29):
We're starting in the UK. We're going to spend a
good chunk of time in the UK.
We're then going to Egypt withboth daughters, daughter number
one's boyfriend and daughternumber two best friend. After
that, we're going to Jordan,Israel, and then we got a month
in Italy.
Michael Moran (01:48):
Okay, nice. Very nice. When do you get to the UK?
Just remind when is the holidaystart? beginning of June. Oh, so
we may get some cricket in andJulian may get some getting
cooking in? Oh, yes.
Julian Bishop (02:00):
Yes, definitely.
I did manage to get tickets forthe second for the Lord's test
the ashes test over it. Okay.
But unfortunately, I promisedthem to my dad, Michael. So
Michael Moran (02:11):
that's no problem. Because I do have
tickets for later in the year.
When they play at The Oval tofind I'm going on, I think the
Friday, Saturday and Sunday,second, third and fourth day.
Julian Bishop (02:24):
Wonderful. That's the good side. bad side. I've
made low progress on my book. Atthe end of the year, I always do
a you know, a whole review ofall my finances because you need
all of that information to dothe tax return here. And it
every year it seems to takelonger and longer this week,
this year, it took over twoweeks to do things are going
well. We even did visits tohouses over the weekend,
(02:47):
Michael?
Michael Moran (02:48):
Gosh, your tax affairs are more complicated and
the former Chancellor of theExchequer Have you following
this story?
Julian Bishop (02:56):
Yes, I was. So the UK Chancellor of the
Exchequer, we'd actually don'tknow the details to be fair, but
looks like he had some dodgy taxdeal which didn't work. And he's
been forced to pay millions ofpounds worth back in tax,
Michael Moran (03:11):
or was more interesting than the the sort of
headline story of whether he didor didn't pay tax on the capital
gains and the offshore companythat he had in his father's
name, who allegedly was helpinghim build business, all of which
sounds extremely extremelydodgy, was more important than
the guy pursuing him who waslike a terrier dog with a bone
(03:34):
because he always he knew hisstuff. So he knew exactly the
circumstances when he would haveto pay was threatened with
libel. And why was ingestingJulian. This story has been
going now for at least a month.
Right for the first two weeks.
notable institutions like thetimes and BBC never reported it.
(03:54):
They're on Twitter as a mainlinestory. But clearly, his lawyers
having said publish this and youwill be sued for whatever reason
kept off the front pages and offthe headline news.
Julian Bishop (04:07):
This similar issues in the US as well. Number
of stories, which weren'treported by mainstream media are
now starting to get mainstreammedia interested. You know,
often mainstream media can bequite conservative in with a
small scene.
Michael Moran (04:22):
Now my big news is on terms of the health
program, I can't see anydiscernible weight loss yet and
I do weigh myself every day. ButI have been invited to join an
NHS weight loss campaign that myGP surgery says that I may be
eligible for so from now onJulian despite what we said last
time, it may not just be memanaging this campaign to lose
(04:44):
weight but me and the NHS, okay,the
Julian Bishop (04:48):
purchase of your tuxedo, the larger size tuxedo
looks like a good investment atthis point.
Michael Moran (04:53):
It can always be taken in jewelry and that's the
good news can always be takenin. How's
Julian Bishop (04:57):
your plan to I think it was triple the size of
your Business by working onlyfour days a week. How is that
going?
Michael Moran (05:04):
The easy part of working four days a week? I'm
starting to implement as with myweight loss campaign, the
growing business three times thesize, so it's more sustainable
is working progress.
Julian Bishop (05:16):
Okay. And is that the normal way that people do
it? They tripled their businessby working less.
Michael Moran (05:23):
Now I know where you go with me, Julian would
suggest
Julian Bishop (05:27):
something if your absence from the office causes
the business to grow. I suggestyou go down to two days a week
as soon as possible. And thenyou could grow the business by
five times.
Michael Moran (05:39):
That's my plan, Julian? Yes. So, yeah, this
ability to make the businessmore profitable through the
endeavors of others. Seems to mea good strategy.
Julian Bishop (05:49):
Okay, well, that's good. Okay, well, let's
keep checking in with each otheron our resolutions. And I
promise I will do better on thebook.
Michael Moran (05:57):
And I'm hopeful, I will have good news on both
business and my weight loss. Butdon't hold your breath.
Julian Bishop (06:04):
But you will continue to hold your breath
when wearing the new tuxedo.
Michael Moran (06:09):
No, thank you minute so far.
So did Niagra know when did youlast go?
Julian Bishop (06:27):
Door to number two was an a pusher. So she's
now 21. So 19 years ago? Ithink.
Michael Moran (06:36):
So it must have been the same time we went
there. I thought we might havebumped into each other in 99, I
think. Okay, so what I'm goingto say, I have to say, reflects
a visit over 20 years ago, andit may have changed in May of
the falls and everything wassignificantly changed for my
(06:56):
commentary around what's aroundthe falls. Hope it has changed
for the better. So you knowwhere I'm coming from there?
Julian?
Julian Bishop (07:04):
Yes, well, it will be a few feet further back
than in 1999. Becauseapparently, every year or so,
the falls are roads by one foot.
So every year, it's one footfurther away than previously.
Michael Moran (07:21):
Although reading for the episode, they have on
occasion sort of diverted it. Sothey can sort of do seems to me
some maintenance work to see seethe erosion, although not quite
sure how you would do that withsuch a vast complex, but they
certainly have looked at the theextent of the erosion.
Julian Bishop (07:41):
I think with Niagara, it's important to
remember that it's a veryimportant source for
electricity, both Ontario, andfor New York State, it provides
over a quarter of all of thestate, those two states needs
for electricity. So you know, weobviously see it as a tourist
site, but it is a very importantpart of electricity
(08:01):
infrastructure. And I'm
Michael Moran (08:03):
not gonna get what I didn't appreciate.
There's a we're furtherupstream, isn't they? So they
actually control the flow ofwhat goes over? And indeed can
divert it if necessary.
Julian Bishop (08:14):
Yeah, they turn it down overnight, as I
understand. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Moran (08:18):
Interesting thing that sort of Yes, overnight, not
so much water goes over thefalls, because they're
presumably holding it back.
Julian Bishop (08:24):
Tell me what you you know, what your views are
off the Niagara Falls?
Michael Moran (08:28):
I don't know if he is one of the seven wonders
of the world. But it's thatlittle bit. And yet, you should
you should definitely go and seeit is one of those geographical
features has to be seen to bebelieved. Right. On the other
hand, one issue not looking atthe falls, certainly on the
Canadian side where I was verydisappointing. very touristy.
(08:51):
Yes, there was a lots of slotmachines, casinos, gaudy
presentation, a place you wouldgo to the day to see the falls.
Can't believe anybody would stayin Niagara. any length of time.
Julian Bishop (09:07):
I'm sorry to report that I have the same view
issue. Admittedly minus from along time ago as well. But I
found the the Canadian Niagra avery disappointing place to stay
apart from the view of thefalls, which is magnificent,
truly impressive. I found thatthe rest of it you and I
couldn't wait to get out
Michael Moran (09:26):
there. Do we have any evidence as to what he's
like on the US side of thefalls?
Julian Bishop (09:31):
No, I think the best views are from the Canadian
side, which is why most peoplego to the Canadian side.
However, on the US side. It'smostly a state park. Yeah. And
it was indeed the first statepark in the US. Sadly, I had so
little curiosity at that time,that I didn't invest it. Maybe
it's great. Maybe our listenerswill tell us
Michael Moran (09:54):
and they had built have the Nokia sort of a
thing called Prospect Pointobservation. Yeah, if you Think
about the whole shoe falls isthe main falls. And that
actually is now almostexclusively in Canada, isn't it
the way
Julian Bishop (10:07):
whether actually there are other name is Canadian
falls. So it's either theHorseshoe Falls over Canadian
falls.
Michael Moran (10:13):
So I'm assuming on the other side, you're not
seeing the whole shoe falls you,you're looking at the two other
falls. Yes,
Julian Bishop (10:22):
I think you're also looking from the top of the
falls rather from the VISTA. Andthe other two falls are a lot
smaller. I think that theHorseshoe Falls, the Canadian
falls account for something likealmost 90% of the water. And
then the other two falls at muchsmaller, the American Falls and
the Bridal Veil Falls.
Michael Moran (10:42):
So I'm assuming they call the American Falls.
That's the ones you see for theAmerican side of the border.
Julian Bishop (10:48):
Yeah. So what did you do related to the falls when
you were in Canada, then? Didyou take them the Maid of the
Mist?
Michael Moran (10:53):
Yeah. So let's deal with my argument. And then
again, and I am not going togive you a big argument. We did
a day trip from I'm going to sayOttawa. I think we're in
October, it was a day trip fromand let me cover that first. The
disappointing thing, it took along time to get to Niagara, not
that it's a long distance. Buton this day trip, they took us
(11:17):
first of all, to a wine placefor wine tasting, oh, you poor
thing. Yep. And then we went toI'm going to say, Lake Ontario
village, which isn't thevillage, but it's a much nicer
place, and Niagara and again,but you know, you you're looking
forward to something. And that'swhy if you've had to get off the
(11:38):
bus and do something you weren'tplanning to really do. So we did
that. Once we got to NiagaraFalls, as you indicated, we had
to do that the made of the misttrip, which is where you get on
a boat, and you sail to the veryedge of the forest itself. And I
have a delightful photo of thebeloved, in a blue poncho. Not a
(12:01):
good luck have to say that agood look.
Julian Bishop (12:04):
Perhaps we could share that picture on our social
media accounts,
Michael Moran (12:07):
is only bettered by the time which you had to
cover us off when we went downthe Grand Mosque in Abu Dhabi,
and again, not a good look. Forburger, not a good look on the
beloved. No. boat trips. Good.
Julian Bishop (12:26):
Yeah, I thought I thought that the boat trip was
decent. It makes you appreciatethe magnificence of the falls.
You gotta remember this is 3000tons of water that is coming
down every second, you know. Sowe're talking a very sizable
waterfall here. Think that theboat trip, despite being in sort
of blue ponchos? I think thatwas a good experience. And I
(12:50):
think that they did that. Well.
The other things that Iremember, I think they've now
got a couple of towers that youcan have drinks from and meals
from an urban observe the falsefrom a slightly higher vantage
point,
Michael Moran (13:02):
if it actually is a Skylon Tower. And I was
checking thinking was that therewhen we went but it was built in
64. So it must have been therebut but I think it's quite a way
back, looking at the picture,get a really good view of the
whole three fours from theSkylon Tower that must be
outstanding not close to the
Julian Bishop (13:21):
falls as such.
They have a Ripley Believe it ornot,
Michael Moran (13:25):
which again, tells me it's tourists is in a
way
Julian Bishop (13:29):
just reminds me of Gatlinburg actually, and we
must do Gatlinburg on anotherpodcast. And Niagara Falls was
the sights have a very bloodybattle in the one of the bloody
battles in the War of 1812 where1000 people perished on the
battlefield.
Michael Moran (13:44):
Gosh, and he didn't know that but didn't know
1000 people perished.
Julian Bishop (13:49):
Yeah, that's out of 9000 or something 9000 troops
and one in nine died. Yes, Ithink there is probably
something which commemoratesthat. Did you try to do some of
the Daredevil things Michael,did you go down the Falls in a
barrel?
Michael Moran (14:04):
Now? Let's get let's go back home. So when I
was doing the research, forwhatever reason, if you think
about Niagara Falls, you thinkabout people who went across it
in the bowel didn't. Andsuddenly everyone else saw it
and you see the sheer flow ofwater? Because you get really
close to it. Yeah. When you seeall anything. Why on earth would
(14:27):
anyone go over a bowel in that?
So no, I didn't. But I wasimpressed. Those who did. Now
what you're
Julian Bishop (14:35):
impressed with 63 year old teacher and Edson
Taylor I am yeah, who was thefirst to do it. And after whom,
and after who made of the mistis named.
Michael Moran (14:44):
And I was more impressed with a cat. Because
you said a cat over a few daysbefore to see whether it would
survive and it did
Julian Bishop (14:52):
to know who Captain Matthew Webb was smoking
the first man
Michael Moran (14:56):
to swim the English Channel who perished but
he didn't over the top, he wasswimming in the rapids wasn't
the?
Julian Bishop (15:03):
That's right. He was swimming in through one of
the whirlpools. Anyway, he wasthe first person to swim that
channel in 1875, some 36 yearsbefore the second person so he
was a strong swimmer. And he setout to prove that you could swim
over a whirlpool. Andunfortunately, he didn't make
it.
Michael Moran (15:21):
What about in 1960? Roger Woodward. Seven year
old went over? Yeah. And was ina boating accident. Boating got
too close. I think they pulled acouple people out. But sadly
didn't he went over survived.
Father went over didn't survive.
Yes. Why is the fascinationabout sort of people going over
(15:46):
the falls? I wouldn't do it isbecause we've come to that,
don't we? You know, sort of,
Julian Bishop (15:50):
you're pitching yourself against one of great
nature's great challenges,aren't you? Yeah, I mean,
everyone who's been there,especially if you're in the boat
at the bottom, you're looking upit's, you know, sir 176 feet
above you, and this sort of wallof noise. And you can't help
thinking God wonder what it'slike to come down that, you
(16:11):
know, that's the reason thatpeople do it. Have you heard of
the tightrope? Walker Blondin?
Michael Moran (16:16):
I did. Because he also walked Lindy in 1859. John
Francis blogged in grammar, letwavelet famous for his time and
did it three times, includingone carrying his manager on his
back,
Julian Bishop (16:32):
his 148 pound manager. And a second time he
did it, carrying a stove and anomelet pan. And he made an
omelet while walking across thetightrope. Apparently, so, the
great Blunden, let's have a looka bad rating. So what's your
rating on this? Michael?
Michael Moran (16:53):
I'm gonna it's definitely a day trip. And you
know, me, I like high tower. SoI'm not done. The Sky Tower,
which I would make will changemy view of you sat there? What
looked at it? Because it's atnight, isn't it? So I only saw
it in the day. And if you lookat the official website, there's
a whole series of packages youget like there's, there's a
(17:14):
romantic package as a girlsweekend package. In fact, you do
know there's a train that you're
Julian Bishop (17:21):
a big fan of the romantic package of our
listeners to remember. Yeah,
Michael Moran (17:25):
I do realize you get a train of only $25 to go
there as well, Julia? Where doesit go from assuming from Ottawa,
and for efficient? Of course,there has been a number of cases
where it's frozen as well, lessso now because I think the way
they've channeled the waterbottle, I think in early 1900s,
(17:45):
it froze over.
Julian Bishop (17:46):
I think it's rare that it freezes over and more
likely that the frozen icechanges the direction of the
water. Yeah, but actuallyfreezing the force itself. And
this water is traveling quitequickly about, you know, 20
miles an hour or something.
Michael Moran (18:01):
The American Force pulley right, frozen over
in 1911. In American forces asmaller one, isn't it?
Julian Bishop (18:07):
It's the smaller one. Yeah, I think my question
was what Mark you're gonna giveit? And I didn't hear a number?
No, because you haven't.
Michael Moran (18:14):
Because the Falls itself has got to be almost a
four out of five. Now is astunning thing to see. But the
place is like a one out of five.
(18:38):
Next up, Julian,
Julian Bishop (18:39):
what do Americans were in the office?
Michael Moran (18:42):
Are we talking today? Since I'm assuming a lot
of Americans don't even go intothe office pajamas and sort of
leggins is the order of the day?
Are we talking purely for thosewho turn up or go to the office?
Julian Bishop (18:55):
I mean, obviously, there are more people
working from home these days.
But of course, they're doingvideo conference calls. So
they'll probably at leastwearing a smarter top, even
though they may be wearingsweatpants, you know, on their
bottoms. But yeah, let's talkabout the office. I had a
difficulty with this subject,because it's one that you
suggested. And my difficulty isthat I've worked pretty much
entirely in the tech industry.
(19:19):
And the tech industry isnotoriously dressed down
compared to other industries. Sotell me, you know, what your
thinking was in racing theresome you know what your interest
was in the subject,
Michael Moran (19:30):
you probably write about the injury specific
because I suppose my exposurethat's me going on declined size
tends to be particularly tofinancial services, that has
investment banks, insurancecompanies, and professional
services, accountants andlawyers. So for example, if you
go down to Canary Wharf, and yougo into JP Morgan or Credit
(19:54):
Suisse or Morgan Stanley, theyall look the same. So it's
chinos I say was a brand labelshirts. Normally in blue, we
look over time where we used tohave many in suits. It's not so
long ago portrayed investmentbankers, people with bright red
(20:15):
bracers, you know, very freshsuits, you know, sort of ties,
big wins or knots that that hasdisappeared. And we moved into
smart casual, you know, withHugo Boss and whatever. So
that's my major, dare I sayAmerican banks, or American
(20:35):
entities in the UK, what theyexpect people to wear. And it's
still a uniform, you know, mostpeople look the same. They're in
a sense of what they're wearing.
Julian Bishop (20:44):
I was at Accenture during the sort of
the.com Boom, in the early2000s, the late 1990s. And I
remember, Accenture introduced asmart casual policy for dress
code. For the first couple ofdays, people were a little bit
confused about what they shouldwear. And then after about three
(21:05):
or four days, everybody wore, ifthere were men, they wore chinos
and a blue collared shirt. Andthat happens within a within a
week. In SF one realize, okay,this is the uniform. So you went
from one uniform, which was adark suit, double breasted
probably at the time, and a tieand a shirt to a just a
(21:27):
different type of uniform,probably reasonably smart.
People didn't want to bedifferent from other people. So
they just copied what everyoneelse was wearing. For my
industry. I think that prettymuch anything goes at this
point. And I did find some data.
So one of the recruitmentagencies in the US did a survey.
And they found that 26% ofoffices were business casual 33%
(21:51):
were casual and 20% had nopolicy. So that 79%, which were,
you know, non suited or nonsmart in the States, which is my
impression in the US is that,you know, it's actually jackets.
And suits actually are fairlyrare these days.
Michael Moran (22:12):
And the models are had no policy, you seem to
have the won't be wearing suits.
Yes, I
Julian Bishop (22:18):
think that's right. I mean, my last company,
we didn't really have a policywhen I was a little bit smarter
than than average. But mostpeople seem to wear jeans and a
T shirt and sneakers when I wentto Facebook in the early, mid
2000s. That was interesting,because everyone wore exactly
(22:38):
the same thing. jeans and ahoodie. And Mark Zuckerberg is
famously known for wearing heand he buys 50 shirts of the
same design, and he just wears anew one every day, doesn't he?
You know, so it's I think it'sinteresting how people seem to
like to gravitate to look likeeveryone else.
Michael Moran (22:59):
And let's just pursue that because that's part
of my interest. What why is itwe all do dress alike? Even when
given carte blanche to dressdifferently? I mean,
Julian Bishop (23:10):
a lot of people concerned about their careers,
aren't they? I've noticed when anew person joins an
organization. Well, obviouslyfor interviews, they come in
dressed in a suit, and thenmaybe the first day they're
pretty smart. And in fact, youcan tell they're a new joiner
not only because you've not seenthem before, but because they're
much smarter than everyone else.
And then gradually they regressto, you know, whatever the norm
(23:30):
is for that particular office.
I've noticed that when seniorexecutives come into town, that
people's dress code smartened upa bit. So I think there's an
element of people wanting tosort of dress as they normally
do for every day, but they willjust smarten up a little bit for
career purposes.
Michael Moran (23:50):
A lot of the senior executives in the state,
we typically wearing suitsbecause,
Julian Bishop (23:55):
yeah, no, actually they're typically
wearing a jacket and a collaredshirt. Ties are quite unusual. I
think these days. I made thestupid ties anyway. So
Michael Moran (24:06):
yeah, like just the sort of, I suppose one of my
image of certainly when I workedwith American executives, they
do tend to be smarter than usBrits. They like the white shirt
quite lucky. Yeah, they know.
And they won't be the pristinewhite shirt. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (24:24):
What do you think about the people who have a
colored shirt with a whitecollar?
Michael Moran (24:30):
Not sure about that today. Not sure about that.
Now, where people who stand outfrom the crowd I know slight,
sorry to tell you that. A friendtold me he was traveling, first
class coming across the states.
And the guy came and sat next tohim. And he had one pink sock on
one luminous green circle, whichimmediately caught his eye. Do
(24:52):
you know who the person was? Andhe could have been
Julian Bishop (24:57):
also number two.
It's also number two. Everysingle pair of socks she has are
different. Okay, so her aboutit. She says I've got another
pair just like it though. Butyeah, so she refuses to wear
same colored socks. So it couldhave been daughter number two,
except you said she wastraveling in this person was
(25:17):
traveling in first class. So Idon't know who was it?
Michael Moran (25:22):
David Hockney someone's at the front door?
Excellent. We
Julian Bishop (25:25):
haven't had someone at the front door for
Michael Moran (25:27):
ages to delivery.
But the living would have tocope with it.
Julian Bishop (25:31):
We've been fairly sexist on this so far, Michael?
Yeah, we've really been talkingabout male address in the in the
workplace, the dress code forwomen is a little bit trickier
than for for men.
Michael Moran (25:45):
I think you're right. I think and maybe this is
something we should get a femaleperspective, obviously
subsequent today because sowhenever I say I think have
greater variety, you get thosewho sort of go down the male
path. So they dress like malesthat they will wear suit and
trousers or, you know, sort of,certainly, when I call dressing
(26:07):
smart casual, there is no doubtin the UK move away from skirts.
Yeah, yeah, you say, jeans in aT shape type approach. But I do
think he's slightly moredifficult to pick what is
appropriate within anorganization.
Julian Bishop (26:23):
And the one thing which is completely seems to
have completely disappeared, butmaybe not completely, but it is,
you know, rare these days.
There's very little pantyhose.
Michael Moran (26:35):
There's Britain.
And this is a result of yourextensive study on the subject.
Is it that Julian
Julian Bishop (26:40):
Well, actually, I never really saw the point of
pantyhose like ties wasn't therefor you. And if you're cold wear
some trousers or leggings orlike warmer see from pantyhose
doesn't really do anything.
Michael Moran (26:54):
She leggings are big now. So but the question is,
could you wear leggings in theoffice, when you go out? Quite
surprising what you see peoplewearing, but I'm not sure
leggings are would deem smartcasual in certainly an
investment bank or because yeah,both you and I with HR
background, now. Did you in yourcareer, during the university
(27:14):
tackle the inappropriate dressproblem? Yes. Can you tell us
that story is
Julian Bishop (27:20):
the first time I did it was at the Treasury in
the UK and was the first time Iwas I was a manager, one of the
people who I managed, came in towork with T shirts, which
praised the then heavyweightchampion of the world, Mike
Tyson. And this was shortlyafter he had been convicted of
(27:42):
rape and sent to prison. So thatwas the first conversation that
I had on dress code.
Michael Moran (27:49):
And I'm going to add to our American visitors.
The HM Treasury in terms ofcivil service and civil
services, is one of the morestuffier more formal
institutions. So you know, Imean, contrary to what I've just
said, like sticking out, becausemost people don't stick it out.
Somebody wearing a mighty Ishouldn't teach it in the
Treasury would stick out.
Julian Bishop (28:09):
And then the second time, I also remember
because it was the same person.
I had to have a discussion withhim about deodorant, and the
need to use some. So yeah, Imean, you do get some tricky
discussions, but you soon getused to it that they're always
more uncomfortable than you are.
When you have the conversationwith someone. Have you had to
(28:31):
have the same conversationsMichael,
Michael Moran (28:33):
and I was working with commodity brokers at May be
it's an HR perspective, itwasn't quite positioned right,
in that we said, you can nowhave a dress down Friday. And so
one of my team came in with whatlooked like a T shirt. It was
more than one occasion withoutwashing, and certainly had had
(28:56):
an exceedingly long time, apermit of Bermuda shorts and
flip flops. So when I challengedhim, no desk down doesn't look
like this. He said, Well, itdoes to me, because that's what
I wear when I'm not in work,which I thought was a good
answer at the time. But youknow, needless to say, we we
eventually agreed that it wasn'tappropriate, and next time he
(29:19):
came in something moreappropriate. I'm not sure what
it was it looked like he wasgoing to the beach surfing that
way.
Julian Bishop (29:24):
Yeah. Which I don't have a problem with. Yeah,
I mean, if you're doingknowledge job, and you're not
client facing, then it doesn'tmatter what you wear, as long as
it's not indecent.
Michael Moran (29:36):
This is one of the things which is quite
difficult if your supplier istrying to work out what is
appropriate to wear it when yougo into an organization. Whereas
before you would go in as soonas we said, the tie and the
jacket, where you go in someplaces. Now they will look at
your thing completely out oftouch because you're clearly not
(29:57):
a modern thinker, whereasthey're equally if Do you go
completely dressed out? Are theyall small casual, I will recall
going into one of the silver,silver circle, law firms magic
circle. And it was on day one hehad was dressed down. But I've
been asked to go in. So I wentin and I thought was reasonably
smart. When the jacket no tie,Julian, I remember saw the HR
(30:21):
person, he looked at me, and helooked at me, and he looked at
me down. And I could tellstraightaway, he thought, for
them, I was inappropriatelydressed, I should say, he was in
your classic suited and Buchaand attire, Neil say we didn't
get the business.
Julian Bishop (30:36):
Now, I think there is something about, you
know, if your company isinvolved in work for clients,
then you've got to meet yourclients expectations and a whole
range of areas. And sotherefore, if you want to win
business, you need to dressappropriately, you know, however
that is, can I move to aseparate area? You know, what,
where Americans were in theoffice was the subject, I like
(30:58):
to discuss the topic of personalhygiene, which I think in the US
is, on average, much higher thanthe UK. Okay. So I would say for
example, certainly for women,that nails and hair are
uniformly excellent in the USworkplace. And indeed, there are
(31:19):
so many nail salons in America,again, it's a very regular thing
for, for many women to do weeklyor monthly, American women in
general will wear quite a lot ofmakeup. The shirts will always
be clean ions. I've never had anissue with people who hadn't had
sufficient deodorant or washing.
So that's one area, you know,which I think the US people in
(31:43):
the office, they are clean, andthe influence in the UK, they're
not. I certainly have found inthe UK, when I was working.
There have been times when allof those things are not the
case. Yes, harsh. And then thereare some peculiar things in us,
you know, which I've never seenin the EU or haven't rarely seen
in the UK. So people wearingbranded company branded clothes,
(32:06):
they work for SAP, let's sayjust to take a company at random
and very large numbers of peoplethere will wear a shirt with a
company's brand on their ontheir chest. That always struck
me as taking a little bit toofar. But that's quite common
here.
Michael Moran (32:27):
Yeah. And do they have to wear them? I mean,
because obviously no, no, no.
They choose to wear they chooseto Yes, yes. Yes. One presume is
because they're proud of thecompany. I wasn't sure that the
logos on the shears, but you dosee lots of American people who
were the sort of company flag asa as a lapel badge. I remember
the CIPD I remember they handedme this. I thought, I don't
(32:48):
think I should be wearing that.
No, absolutely not. But it wasinteresting to see the people
who did, the people did wear it.
Julian Bishop (32:57):
And it's also number one, she's working at a
pharmaceutical company and herfirst job as a representative to
doctors. So she goes and visitsDoctor surgeries every day.
She's taken to wearing scrubs
Michael Moran (33:10):
wearing scrubs.
Why would you do that?
Julian Bishop (33:13):
She says that she's taken more seriously, when
she wears the uniform of themedical profession.
Michael Moran (33:21):
Gosh, even though he's selling well, they're not
really selling Oh, yes, they areJulian she is selling maybe by
various ways but you're stillselling
Julian Bishop (33:33):
well I guess we all salesmen aren't we and then
you get sort of nice ones aswell. Some of the people on it
help desks and they have theirown uniform don't they have the
pouch for the mobile phone whichthey attached to their belt,
they maybe have some keyshanging from the belt they've
got maybe in a shirt pocketthey've got some pens which are
(33:53):
inserted that's a sort of youknow, you get these sort of
niche ones depending on you knowwhich function you perform in,
in a in a particular company ifyou come across that is that
popular in the UK?
Michael Moran (34:06):
It is interesting, isn't it? So I will
say I think with li ke and againI think you know it you often do
you see labeled victory ifyou're talking to customers. So
yes, I'm not sure about whatyour pens are that popular these
days in doc fest pockets but butyes, the phone is a little
(34:27):
jazzy. Hold all thing.
Julian Bishop (34:30):
My perspective is in the US everything is a lot
less formal. But there are equalnumber of rules to that in a
very formal society where if itwere my a suit and tie.
Michael Moran (34:44):
Now you have one thing we haven't talked about if
you're not exactly like to dressbut it is which is the rise of
the backpack. Do you commuteinto town now or get on a tube?
There was a time where you willsee people holding briefcases or
taxi cases or ladies is very bigdesigner bags. But now and this
may be a function if you saidthe fact that you you've got a
(35:06):
pair of shoes in it, you havethis huge backpack. It is a
known fact it's always Michaelfactor that if you've got a
backpack on you, you completelyoblivious spatially to people
around you. So when you didinitially you bump into them,
because you've not been hugeonboard the back. And I do I'm
not a great fan of backpacks.
Julian not a great fan.
Julian Bishop (35:29):
When I was working, I think I had a
backpack from about 1997. So thelast briefcase I had was in the
90s when I was at the Bank ofEngland, and then you get a
backpack, you've got yourlaptop, and then you never turn
back from that
Michael Moran (35:45):
was I would have what I call a man bag. So it's a
satchel type thing that youhave, but not a backpack because
at least I can see where it iswhere the backpack you just go
obliviously knocking peopleright and left view as you
stride into the office.
Julian Bishop (36:02):
What's your interest in the subject? Because
Michael Moran (36:04):
I was I was still difficulty. So I suppose I think
we entered it last time. If yougo back to things like madmen,
where I don't know, other thingshave changed that drink in the
office and smoke in the office.
But there was there was a waypeople dressed there wasn't
that, you know, a dare I say itwas much smarter than it was
today. And we are seeing sort ofstandards. Generally if I may we
(36:28):
you hinted that when you weretalking about hygiene and stock
pickers aware of it, if you hadto dress in a particular way,
and it was rigorously enforced.
I'm assuming most people did doit. If today you can wear
whatever you like. And althoughwe acknowledge there's a certain
ad mentality, there is no doubtyour mike tyson loving friend
(36:51):
will wear whatever they like anddo whatever they like, I
suppose. Yeah,
Julian Bishop (36:55):
my problem is, in those olden days, you said that
people were drinking in theoffice. And I remember when I
was at the Bank of England, Iseem to remember that the Bank
of England had three bars, andthat most managers would have
their own drinks cabinets. Andso this meant that by the
afternoon, the bulk of theworkforce were pretty much
(37:18):
plastered. I certainly my firstmanager, perhaps I ought to
identify him quite so readily.
Certainly, my impression isfirst time in the you know, like
the professional workforce, onething you would never do is see
him in the afternoon. If you hadto see him about something a
meeting, you had to do that inthe morning, because by the
(37:40):
afternoon, he was so lubricated,that you'll be there for hours.
So you wouldn't get any senseout of it. And you wouldn't be
able to escape. They may havebeen smarter, but I don't know,
I think a lot of theprofessionalism in those days
was at least the company I wasworking in was much less.
Michael Moran (37:58):
And it's difficult, isn't it? Because I
think you're painting ageneralization, which clearly
doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
But there is no doubt attitudestowards smoking, or drinking
were mean more liberal, I workedin the insurance market. And the
Lloyds brokers notoriously, youknow, and to some extent still
(38:18):
do had very long liquid lunches.
It wasn't everybody, but it wasmuch more acceptable for people
to drink energy said drinkcabinets in the office. So that
that's definitely I'm not quitesure that ties with sort of
deterioration of dress code.
Julian Bishop (38:38):
No, I just, I just don't think their dress
code is that important. But Ithink being sober in the
workplace is quite important. Iguess that's my point is because
I'm really tech industry, wherethis thing just doesn't matter
what you look like in most techcompanies, maybe with the
exception of IBM or something,but most of the others, it
doesn't matter. And it doesn'tmatter. Because it doesn't
(39:00):
matter. What you wear doesn'tmatter. What matters is, you
know, what skills you bring howyou work with others, you know
that your productivity is highthat you you know, you want to
be innovative and creative.
Those are things that matter.
So, and that is the reason thatthey focus on those things,
whether you wear a tie in aparticular type of suit, proper
(39:23):
brogues, or whatever, those arefor things, which people could
put a lot of focus on, but theydon't matter.
Michael Moran (39:30):
So your your treatise here is that it's not
relevant in this sort of senseof Office productivity for most
Julian Bishop (39:38):
I mean, obviously, if I was bearing my
wife, I wouldn't want thefuneral director, you know, to
be there and Bermuda shorts andflip flops and I would expect
the funeral director at thatpoint to be wearing a dark suit.
So I think there are someexceptions, but that's what they
are exceptions, not the norm.
Michael Moran (39:57):
We could explore does what you want. a
significant impact on yourperformance. Does what you were
a significant factor inperformance. Does, what I can
tell you and well psychologicalresearch that so to speak is if,
for example, you go for aninterview, either wearing
(40:17):
something which is new, orwearing something that's come
freshly from the laundry, willenhance a your confidence and be
your performance. One of thethings why people had uniforms,
not was just one of therecognition that sort of it made
you look and feel authoritarian.
Yeah. I'm pretty certain that'swhy police forces on the army
have it's very clear any sort ofdesignation, right. So it is,
(40:42):
there is just impact wasbehavior.
Julian Bishop (40:47):
Yeah, if you were a psychologist, you might put my
dislike of uniform back to myschool days. Because when I was
at school, I wore a uniform thatwas designed in 1552, and hadn't
been changed ever since.
Understandably, well, I neverreally minded wearing that at
school. I wasn't keen tocontinue that method of dress or
(41:10):
that, that sticking withsomething which was, you know,
many centuries old.
Michael Moran (41:19):
And I'm gonna say, Julian, because a we know
why schools have uniforms.
Particularly why they came wasto students did look like, so
there was no evidence of sort ofhow wealthy you were right.
Julian Bishop (41:32):
But that's the positive side of my school. And
that that was
Michael Moran (41:35):
for the child who likes to stand out, Julian, and
I suspect you were one of thoseactually dressed in like
everyone else. Is that's theproblem. Oh, by the way, I get
that. I like school you. I couldsee any point that the school
uniform, and I told them thatfrequently. And surely, it got
me known, but for the wrongreasons. Right. So did you have
(41:57):
a cap at your school union?
What's a cap? School cap? No, we
Julian Bishop (42:03):
think so. My school uniform, was designed in
1552 had yellow stockings up tothe knee had britches, which
went down to the knee from theother side. I had a long black
coat with buttons down the frontand a rough relative, they would
call bands, but the easiest wayto describe it as calling it a
(42:25):
rough. So that was my schooluniform. It was good in the way
that my school was a charityschool. So at the time that I
was there, you you paidaccording to your parents
income, and it had mostly poorchildren. So what it did do it
equalized, everyone, literally Ihad no idea about people's
family's background, because wewere all dressed in the same
(42:48):
thing. So that was positive. Buton the negative side, it was far
too hot in the summer, and fartoo cold in the winter. Wasn't
really practical. And wheneverwe went to the nearby town, we
used to get beaten up by thelocal hoodlums who called it
penguin bashing
Michael Moran (43:06):
I live with you see now did give you ways if you
were caught not wearing itproperly. Did you go into
detention?
Julian Bishop (43:12):
Yes, I'm fat.
That was pretty much the maintime that I ever got punished at
school was for dress codeinfractions. Yeah, so not having
the socks pulled up from nothaving the band's tightened
having them? Yeah, thepunishment that usually was you
had to run around a field a fewtimes.
Michael Moran (43:32):
Yeah. So So here's where we suddenly is
similar because the cap Ireferred to, if you were caught
not wearing a cap intodetention, and me and the
tensions were very familiarfriends. I used to point out,
coming off the Council Statescene wearing the cap. As I
left, The Guardian was just asignal for people to either a
(43:53):
best throw the cap into abubble, and a worse you damn
good coughing. Although the goodnews was Julia, it made me a
very quick runner. I live notalways with a couple of my head.
But I could move away quicklywhen Joe was chasing me out this
date.
Julian Bishop (44:09):
Well, interestingly, my former school
has changed the dress code forwhen you go into the nearby
town. When I was there, you hadto go in in full school uniform.
Now you're not allowed to go inand full school uniform due to
health and safety reasons. Thefact that you'll get beaten up
by the local headless. And soyou know, obviously it's PC gone
(44:30):
mad. Never did me any harm. Ican see the reason for a uniform
in those cases and equalizing Ican see that, but I can't really
see that in a modernprofessional company.
Michael Moran (44:44):
Conclude the section. So isn't it interesting
that when we do say to people inthe world of work, there is no
dress code. We do tend togravitate towards a dress code.
We dress like other people. Sothe very thing that school you
didn't want to do In the worldof work, we would appear to
dress like everyone elseJulian next time. What we're
(45:17):
going to do is
Julian Bishop (45:21):
we're going to discuss the city of Memphis. We
are going to talk about whyAmericans like trucks.
Michael Moran (45:29):
Okay? And that will be episode 46 That's
correct. So, until episode 46Julian it's goodbye for me and
it's goodbye
Julian Bishop (45:40):
from him right
Unknown (46:14):
you
Welcome to Episode 45. Julian,what we're going to speak about
today,
Julian Bishop (00:29):
I believe we're going to talk about Niagara
Falls, and what Americans werein the office.
Michael Moran (00:35):
But before we do, I need to check in with you,
Julian. How are your New Year'sresolutions going? So for
example, have you been swimmingin the sea? At least twice a
week?
Julian Bishop (00:47):
Yes. The Week begins on Sunday in America, and
Monday and Europe and Sunday inAmerica. And so even this week,
I've already done once, whichwas yesterday, Sunday, when we
were recording this on a Monday,that's going well, and the sea
actually is starting to getwarmer.
Michael Moran (01:04):
Okay. And you're training for your 5k. Within 25
minutes.
Julian Bishop (01:10):
I did my first and under 25 minutes, I might
say just under 25 minutes, butdid the first one. So that's
underway. So we have starting tobook the elements of our three
month, summer holiday.
Michael Moran (01:27):
Right? So do you know where it's starting?
Julian Bishop (01:29):
We're starting in the UK. We're going to spend a
good chunk of time in the UK.
We're then going to Egypt withboth daughters, daughter number
one's boyfriend and daughternumber two best friend. After
that, we're going to Jordan,Israel, and then we got a month
in Italy.
Michael Moran (01:48):
Okay, nice. Very nice. When do you get to the UK?
Just remind when is the holidaystart? beginning of June. Oh, so
we may get some cricket in andJulian may get some getting
cooking in? Oh, yes.
Julian Bishop (02:00):
Yes, definitely.
I did manage to get tickets forthe second for the Lord's test
the ashes test over it. Okay.
But unfortunately, I promisedthem to my dad, Michael. So
Michael Moran (02:11):
that's no problem. Because I do have
tickets for later in the year.
When they play at The Oval tofind I'm going on, I think the
Friday, Saturday and Sunday,second, third and fourth day.
Julian Bishop (02:24):
Wonderful. That's the good side. bad side. I've
made low progress on my book. Atthe end of the year, I always do
a you know, a whole review ofall my finances because you need
all of that information to dothe tax return here. And it
every year it seems to takelonger and longer this week,
this year, it took over twoweeks to do things are going
well. We even did visits tohouses over the weekend,
(02:47):
Michael?
Michael Moran (02:48):
Gosh, your tax affairs are more complicated and
the former Chancellor of theExchequer Have you following
this story?
Julian Bishop (02:56):
Yes, I was. So the UK Chancellor of the
Exchequer, we'd actually don'tknow the details to be fair, but
looks like he had some dodgy taxdeal which didn't work. And he's
been forced to pay millions ofpounds worth back in tax,
Michael Moran (03:11):
or was more interesting than the the sort of
headline story of whether he didor didn't pay tax on the capital
gains and the offshore companythat he had in his father's
name, who allegedly was helpinghim build business, all of which
sounds extremely extremelydodgy, was more important than
the guy pursuing him who waslike a terrier dog with a bone
(03:34):
because he always he knew hisstuff. So he knew exactly the
circumstances when he would haveto pay was threatened with
libel. And why was ingestingJulian. This story has been
going now for at least a month.
Right for the first two weeks.
notable institutions like thetimes and BBC never reported it.
(03:54):
They're on Twitter as a mainlinestory. But clearly, his lawyers
having said publish this and youwill be sued for whatever reason
kept off the front pages and offthe headline news.
Julian Bishop (04:07):
This similar issues in the US as well. Number
of stories, which weren'treported by mainstream media are
now starting to get mainstreammedia interested. You know,
often mainstream media can bequite conservative in with a
small scene.
Michael Moran (04:22):
Now my big news is on terms of the health
program, I can't see anydiscernible weight loss yet and
I do weigh myself every day. ButI have been invited to join an
NHS weight loss campaign that myGP surgery says that I may be
eligible for so from now onJulian despite what we said last
time, it may not just be memanaging this campaign to lose
(04:44):
weight but me and the NHS, okay,the
Julian Bishop (04:48):
purchase of your tuxedo, the larger size tuxedo
looks like a good investment atthis point.
Michael Moran (04:53):
It can always be taken in jewelry and that's the
good news can always be takenin. How's
Julian Bishop (04:57):
your plan to I think it was triple the size of
your Business by working onlyfour days a week. How is that
going?
Michael Moran (05:04):
The easy part of working four days a week? I'm
starting to implement as with myweight loss campaign, the
growing business three times thesize, so it's more sustainable
is working progress.
Julian Bishop (05:16):
Okay. And is that the normal way that people do
it? They tripled their businessby working less.
Michael Moran (05:23):
Now I know where you go with me, Julian would
suggest
Julian Bishop (05:27):
something if your absence from the office causes
the business to grow. I suggestyou go down to two days a week
as soon as possible. And thenyou could grow the business by
five times.
Michael Moran (05:39):
That's my plan, Julian? Yes. So, yeah, this
ability to make the businessmore profitable through the
endeavors of others. Seems to mea good strategy.
Julian Bishop (05:49):
Okay, well, that's good. Okay, well, let's
keep checking in with each otheron our resolutions. And I
promise I will do better on thebook.
Michael Moran (05:57):
And I'm hopeful, I will have good news on both
business and my weight loss. Butdon't hold your breath.
Julian Bishop (06:04):
But you will continue to hold your breath
when wearing the new tuxedo.
Michael Moran (06:09):
No, thank you minute so far.
So did Niagra know when did youlast go?
Julian Bishop (06:27):
Door to number two was an a pusher. So she's
now 21. So 19 years ago? Ithink.
Michael Moran (06:36):
So it must have been the same time we went
there. I thought we might havebumped into each other in 99, I
think. Okay, so what I'm goingto say, I have to say, reflects
a visit over 20 years ago, andit may have changed in May of
the falls and everything wassignificantly changed for my
(06:56):
commentary around what's aroundthe falls. Hope it has changed
for the better. So you knowwhere I'm coming from there?
Julian?
Julian Bishop (07:04):
Yes, well, it will be a few feet further back
than in 1999. Becauseapparently, every year or so,
the falls are roads by one foot.
So every year, it's one footfurther away than previously.
Michael Moran (07:21):
Although reading for the episode, they have on
occasion sort of diverted it. Sothey can sort of do seems to me
some maintenance work to see seethe erosion, although not quite
sure how you would do that withsuch a vast complex, but they
certainly have looked at the theextent of the erosion.
Julian Bishop (07:41):
I think with Niagara, it's important to
remember that it's a veryimportant source for
electricity, both Ontario, andfor New York State, it provides
over a quarter of all of thestate, those two states needs
for electricity. So you know, weobviously see it as a tourist
site, but it is a very importantpart of electricity
(08:01):
infrastructure. And I'm
Michael Moran (08:03):
not gonna get what I didn't appreciate.
There's a we're furtherupstream, isn't they? So they
actually control the flow ofwhat goes over? And indeed can
divert it if necessary.
Julian Bishop (08:14):
Yeah, they turn it down overnight, as I
understand. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Moran (08:18):
Interesting thing that sort of Yes, overnight, not
so much water goes over thefalls, because they're
presumably holding it back.
Julian Bishop (08:24):
Tell me what you you know, what your views are
off the Niagara Falls?
Michael Moran (08:28):
I don't know if he is one of the seven wonders
of the world. But it's thatlittle bit. And yet, you should
you should definitely go and seeit is one of those geographical
features has to be seen to bebelieved. Right. On the other
hand, one issue not looking atthe falls, certainly on the
Canadian side where I was verydisappointing. very touristy.
(08:51):
Yes, there was a lots of slotmachines, casinos, gaudy
presentation, a place you wouldgo to the day to see the falls.
Can't believe anybody would stayin Niagara. any length of time.
Julian Bishop (09:07):
I'm sorry to report that I have the same view
issue. Admittedly minus from along time ago as well. But I
found the the Canadian Niagra avery disappointing place to stay
apart from the view of thefalls, which is magnificent,
truly impressive. I found thatthe rest of it you and I
couldn't wait to get out
Michael Moran (09:26):
there. Do we have any evidence as to what he's
like on the US side of thefalls?
Julian Bishop (09:31):
No, I think the best views are from the Canadian
side, which is why most peoplego to the Canadian side.
However, on the US side. It'smostly a state park. Yeah. And
it was indeed the first statepark in the US. Sadly, I had so
little curiosity at that time,that I didn't invest it. Maybe
it's great. Maybe our listenerswill tell us
Michael Moran (09:54):
and they had built have the Nokia sort of a
thing called Prospect Pointobservation. Yeah, if you Think
about the whole shoe falls isthe main falls. And that
actually is now almostexclusively in Canada, isn't it
the way
Julian Bishop (10:07):
whether actually there are other name is Canadian
falls. So it's either theHorseshoe Falls over Canadian
falls.
Michael Moran (10:13):
So I'm assuming on the other side, you're not
seeing the whole shoe falls you,you're looking at the two other
falls. Yes,
Julian Bishop (10:22):
I think you're also looking from the top of the
falls rather from the VISTA. Andthe other two falls are a lot
smaller. I think that theHorseshoe Falls, the Canadian
falls account for something likealmost 90% of the water. And
then the other two falls at muchsmaller, the American Falls and
the Bridal Veil Falls.
Michael Moran (10:42):
So I'm assuming they call the American Falls.
That's the ones you see for theAmerican side of the border.
Julian Bishop (10:48):
Yeah. So what did you do related to the falls when
you were in Canada, then? Didyou take them the Maid of the
Mist?
Michael Moran (10:53):
Yeah. So let's deal with my argument. And then
again, and I am not going togive you a big argument. We did
a day trip from I'm going to sayOttawa. I think we're in
October, it was a day trip fromand let me cover that first. The
disappointing thing, it took along time to get to Niagara, not
that it's a long distance. Buton this day trip, they took us
(11:17):
first of all, to a wine placefor wine tasting, oh, you poor
thing. Yep. And then we went toI'm going to say, Lake Ontario
village, which isn't thevillage, but it's a much nicer
place, and Niagara and again,but you know, you you're looking
forward to something. And that'swhy if you've had to get off the
(11:38):
bus and do something you weren'tplanning to really do. So we did
that. Once we got to NiagaraFalls, as you indicated, we had
to do that the made of the misttrip, which is where you get on
a boat, and you sail to the veryedge of the forest itself. And I
have a delightful photo of thebeloved, in a blue poncho. Not a
(12:01):
good luck have to say that agood look.
Julian Bishop (12:04):
Perhaps we could share that picture on our social
media accounts,
Michael Moran (12:07):
is only bettered by the time which you had to
cover us off when we went downthe Grand Mosque in Abu Dhabi,
and again, not a good look. Forburger, not a good look on the
beloved. No. boat trips. Good.
Julian Bishop (12:26):
Yeah, I thought I thought that the boat trip was
decent. It makes you appreciatethe magnificence of the falls.
You gotta remember this is 3000tons of water that is coming
down every second, you know. Sowe're talking a very sizable
waterfall here. Think that theboat trip, despite being in sort
of blue ponchos? I think thatwas a good experience. And I
(12:50):
think that they did that. Well.
The other things that Iremember, I think they've now
got a couple of towers that youcan have drinks from and meals
from an urban observe the falsefrom a slightly higher vantage
point,
Michael Moran (13:02):
if it actually is a Skylon Tower. And I was
checking thinking was that therewhen we went but it was built in
64. So it must have been therebut but I think it's quite a way
back, looking at the picture,get a really good view of the
whole three fours from theSkylon Tower that must be
outstanding not close to the
Julian Bishop (13:21):
falls as such.
They have a Ripley Believe it ornot,
Michael Moran (13:25):
which again, tells me it's tourists is in a
way
Julian Bishop (13:29):
just reminds me of Gatlinburg actually, and we
must do Gatlinburg on anotherpodcast. And Niagara Falls was
the sights have a very bloodybattle in the one of the bloody
battles in the War of 1812 where1000 people perished on the
battlefield.
Michael Moran (13:44):
Gosh, and he didn't know that but didn't know
1000 people perished.
Julian Bishop (13:49):
Yeah, that's out of 9000 or something 9000 troops
and one in nine died. Yes, Ithink there is probably
something which commemoratesthat. Did you try to do some of
the Daredevil things Michael,did you go down the Falls in a
barrel?
Michael Moran (14:04):
Now? Let's get let's go back home. So when I
was doing the research, forwhatever reason, if you think
about Niagara Falls, you thinkabout people who went across it
in the bowel didn't. Andsuddenly everyone else saw it
and you see the sheer flow ofwater? Because you get really
close to it. Yeah. When you seeall anything. Why on earth would
(14:27):
anyone go over a bowel in that?
So no, I didn't. But I wasimpressed. Those who did. Now
what you're
Julian Bishop (14:35):
impressed with 63 year old teacher and Edson
Taylor I am yeah, who was thefirst to do it. And after whom,
and after who made of the mistis named.
Michael Moran (14:44):
And I was more impressed with a cat. Because
you said a cat over a few daysbefore to see whether it would
survive and it did
Julian Bishop (14:52):
to know who Captain Matthew Webb was smoking
the first man
Michael Moran (14:56):
to swim the English Channel who perished but
he didn't over the top, he wasswimming in the rapids wasn't
the?
Julian Bishop (15:03):
That's right. He was swimming in through one of
the whirlpools. Anyway, he wasthe first person to swim that
channel in 1875, some 36 yearsbefore the second person so he
was a strong swimmer. And he setout to prove that you could swim
over a whirlpool. Andunfortunately, he didn't make
it.
Michael Moran (15:21):
What about in 1960? Roger Woodward. Seven year
old went over? Yeah. And was ina boating accident. Boating got
too close. I think they pulled acouple people out. But sadly
didn't he went over survived.
Father went over didn't survive.
Yes. Why is the fascinationabout sort of people going over
(15:46):
the falls? I wouldn't do it isbecause we've come to that,
don't we? You know, sort of,
Julian Bishop (15:50):
you're pitching yourself against one of great
nature's great challenges,aren't you? Yeah, I mean,
everyone who's been there,especially if you're in the boat
at the bottom, you're looking upit's, you know, sir 176 feet
above you, and this sort of wallof noise. And you can't help
thinking God wonder what it'slike to come down that, you
(16:11):
know, that's the reason thatpeople do it. Have you heard of
the tightrope? Walker Blondin?
Michael Moran (16:16):
I did. Because he also walked Lindy in 1859. John
Francis blogged in grammar, letwavelet famous for his time and
did it three times, includingone carrying his manager on his
back,
Julian Bishop (16:32):
his 148 pound manager. And a second time he
did it, carrying a stove and anomelet pan. And he made an
omelet while walking across thetightrope. Apparently, so, the
great Blunden, let's have a looka bad rating. So what's your
rating on this? Michael?
Michael Moran (16:53):
I'm gonna it's definitely a day trip. And you
know, me, I like high tower. SoI'm not done. The Sky Tower,
which I would make will changemy view of you sat there? What
looked at it? Because it's atnight, isn't it? So I only saw
it in the day. And if you lookat the official website, there's
a whole series of packages youget like there's, there's a
(17:14):
romantic package as a girlsweekend package. In fact, you do
know there's a train that you're
Julian Bishop (17:21):
a big fan of the romantic package of our
listeners to remember. Yeah,
Michael Moran (17:25):
I do realize you get a train of only $25 to go
there as well, Julia? Where doesit go from assuming from Ottawa,
and for efficient? Of course,there has been a number of cases
where it's frozen as well, lessso now because I think the way
they've channeled the waterbottle, I think in early 1900s,
(17:45):
it froze over.
Julian Bishop (17:46):
I think it's rare that it freezes over and more
likely that the frozen icechanges the direction of the
water. Yeah, but actuallyfreezing the force itself. And
this water is traveling quitequickly about, you know, 20
miles an hour or something.
Michael Moran (18:01):
The American Force pulley right, frozen over
in 1911. In American forces asmaller one, isn't it?
Julian Bishop (18:07):
It's the smaller one. Yeah, I think my question
was what Mark you're gonna giveit? And I didn't hear a number?
No, because you haven't.
Michael Moran (18:14):
Because the Falls itself has got to be almost a
four out of five. Now is astunning thing to see. But the
place is like a one out of five.
(18:38):
Next up, Julian,
Julian Bishop (18:39):
what do Americans were in the office?
Michael Moran (18:42):
Are we talking today? Since I'm assuming a lot
of Americans don't even go intothe office pajamas and sort of
leggins is the order of the day?
Are we talking purely for thosewho turn up or go to the office?
Julian Bishop (18:55):
I mean, obviously, there are more people
working from home these days.
But of course, they're doingvideo conference calls. So
they'll probably at leastwearing a smarter top, even
though they may be wearingsweatpants, you know, on their
bottoms. But yeah, let's talkabout the office. I had a
difficulty with this subject,because it's one that you
suggested. And my difficulty isthat I've worked pretty much
entirely in the tech industry.
(19:19):
And the tech industry isnotoriously dressed down
compared to other industries. Sotell me, you know, what your
thinking was in racing theresome you know what your interest
was in the subject,
Michael Moran (19:30):
you probably write about the injury specific
because I suppose my exposurethat's me going on declined size
tends to be particularly tofinancial services, that has
investment banks, insurancecompanies, and professional
services, accountants andlawyers. So for example, if you
go down to Canary Wharf, and yougo into JP Morgan or Credit
(19:54):
Suisse or Morgan Stanley, theyall look the same. So it's
chinos I say was a brand labelshirts. Normally in blue, we
look over time where we used tohave many in suits. It's not so
long ago portrayed investmentbankers, people with bright red
(20:15):
bracers, you know, very freshsuits, you know, sort of ties,
big wins or knots that that hasdisappeared. And we moved into
smart casual, you know, withHugo Boss and whatever. So
that's my major, dare I sayAmerican banks, or American
(20:35):
entities in the UK, what theyexpect people to wear. And it's
still a uniform, you know, mostpeople look the same. They're in
a sense of what they're wearing.
Julian Bishop (20:44):
I was at Accenture during the sort of
the.com Boom, in the early2000s, the late 1990s. And I
remember, Accenture introduced asmart casual policy for dress
code. For the first couple ofdays, people were a little bit
confused about what they shouldwear. And then after about three
(21:05):
or four days, everybody wore, ifthere were men, they wore chinos
and a blue collared shirt. Andthat happens within a within a
week. In SF one realize, okay,this is the uniform. So you went
from one uniform, which was adark suit, double breasted
probably at the time, and a tieand a shirt to a just a
(21:27):
different type of uniform,probably reasonably smart.
People didn't want to bedifferent from other people. So
they just copied what everyoneelse was wearing. For my
industry. I think that prettymuch anything goes at this
point. And I did find some data.
So one of the recruitmentagencies in the US did a survey.
And they found that 26% ofoffices were business casual 33%
(21:51):
were casual and 20% had nopolicy. So that 79%, which were,
you know, non suited or nonsmart in the States, which is my
impression in the US is that,you know, it's actually jackets.
And suits actually are fairlyrare these days.
Michael Moran (22:12):
And the models are had no policy, you seem to
have the won't be wearing suits.
Yes, I
Julian Bishop (22:18):
think that's right. I mean, my last company,
we didn't really have a policywhen I was a little bit smarter
than than average. But mostpeople seem to wear jeans and a
T shirt and sneakers when I wentto Facebook in the early, mid
2000s. That was interesting,because everyone wore exactly
(22:38):
the same thing. jeans and ahoodie. And Mark Zuckerberg is
famously known for wearing heand he buys 50 shirts of the
same design, and he just wears anew one every day, doesn't he?
You know, so it's I think it'sinteresting how people seem to
like to gravitate to look likeeveryone else.
Michael Moran (22:59):
And let's just pursue that because that's part
of my interest. What why is itwe all do dress alike? Even when
given carte blanche to dressdifferently? I mean,
Julian Bishop (23:10):
a lot of people concerned about their careers,
aren't they? I've noticed when anew person joins an
organization. Well, obviouslyfor interviews, they come in
dressed in a suit, and thenmaybe the first day they're
pretty smart. And in fact, youcan tell they're a new joiner
not only because you've not seenthem before, but because they're
much smarter than everyone else.
And then gradually they regressto, you know, whatever the norm
(23:30):
is for that particular office.
I've noticed that when seniorexecutives come into town, that
people's dress code smartened upa bit. So I think there's an
element of people wanting tosort of dress as they normally
do for every day, but they willjust smarten up a little bit for
career purposes.
Michael Moran (23:50):
A lot of the senior executives in the state,
we typically wearing suitsbecause,
Julian Bishop (23:55):
yeah, no, actually they're typically
wearing a jacket and a collaredshirt. Ties are quite unusual. I
think these days. I made thestupid ties anyway. So
Michael Moran (24:06):
yeah, like just the sort of, I suppose one of my
image of certainly when I workedwith American executives, they
do tend to be smarter than usBrits. They like the white shirt
quite lucky. Yeah, they know.
And they won't be the pristinewhite shirt. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (24:24):
What do you think about the people who have a
colored shirt with a whitecollar?
Michael Moran (24:30):
Not sure about that today. Not sure about that.
Now, where people who stand outfrom the crowd I know slight,
sorry to tell you that. A friendtold me he was traveling, first
class coming across the states.
And the guy came and sat next tohim. And he had one pink sock on
one luminous green circle, whichimmediately caught his eye. Do
(24:52):
you know who the person was? Andhe could have been
Julian Bishop (24:57):
also number two.
It's also number two. Everysingle pair of socks she has are
different. Okay, so her aboutit. She says I've got another
pair just like it though. Butyeah, so she refuses to wear
same colored socks. So it couldhave been daughter number two,
except you said she wastraveling in this person was
(25:17):
traveling in first class. So Idon't know who was it?
Michael Moran (25:22):
David Hockney someone's at the front door?
Excellent. We
Julian Bishop (25:25):
haven't had someone at the front door for
Michael Moran (25:27):
ages to delivery.
But the living would have tocope with it.
Julian Bishop (25:31):
We've been fairly sexist on this so far, Michael?
Yeah, we've really been talkingabout male address in the in the
workplace, the dress code forwomen is a little bit trickier
than for for men.
Michael Moran (25:45):
I think you're right. I think and maybe this is
something we should get a femaleperspective, obviously
subsequent today because sowhenever I say I think have
greater variety, you get thosewho sort of go down the male
path. So they dress like malesthat they will wear suit and
trousers or, you know, sort of,certainly, when I call dressing
(26:07):
smart casual, there is no doubtin the UK move away from skirts.
Yeah, yeah, you say, jeans in aT shape type approach. But I do
think he's slightly moredifficult to pick what is
appropriate within anorganization.
Julian Bishop (26:23):
And the one thing which is completely seems to
have completely disappeared, butmaybe not completely, but it is,
you know, rare these days.
There's very little pantyhose.
Michael Moran (26:35):
There's Britain.
And this is a result of yourextensive study on the subject.
Is it that Julian
Julian Bishop (26:40):
Well, actually, I never really saw the point of
pantyhose like ties wasn't therefor you. And if you're cold wear
some trousers or leggings orlike warmer see from pantyhose
doesn't really do anything.
Michael Moran (26:54):
She leggings are big now. So but the question is,
could you wear leggings in theoffice, when you go out? Quite
surprising what you see peoplewearing, but I'm not sure
leggings are would deem smartcasual in certainly an
investment bank or because yeah,both you and I with HR
background, now. Did you in yourcareer, during the university
(27:14):
tackle the inappropriate dressproblem? Yes. Can you tell us
that story is
Julian Bishop (27:20):
the first time I did it was at the Treasury in
the UK and was the first time Iwas I was a manager, one of the
people who I managed, came in towork with T shirts, which
praised the then heavyweightchampion of the world, Mike
Tyson. And this was shortlyafter he had been convicted of
(27:42):
rape and sent to prison. So thatwas the first conversation that
I had on dress code.
Michael Moran (27:49):
And I'm going to add to our American visitors.
The HM Treasury in terms ofcivil service and civil
services, is one of the morestuffier more formal
institutions. So you know, Imean, contrary to what I've just
said, like sticking out, becausemost people don't stick it out.
Somebody wearing a mighty Ishouldn't teach it in the
Treasury would stick out.
Julian Bishop (28:09):
And then the second time, I also remember
because it was the same person.
I had to have a discussion withhim about deodorant, and the
need to use some. So yeah, Imean, you do get some tricky
discussions, but you soon getused to it that they're always
more uncomfortable than you are.
When you have the conversationwith someone. Have you had to
(28:31):
have the same conversationsMichael,
Michael Moran (28:33):
and I was working with commodity brokers at May be
it's an HR perspective, itwasn't quite positioned right,
in that we said, you can nowhave a dress down Friday. And so
one of my team came in with whatlooked like a T shirt. It was
more than one occasion withoutwashing, and certainly had had
(28:56):
an exceedingly long time, apermit of Bermuda shorts and
flip flops. So when I challengedhim, no desk down doesn't look
like this. He said, Well, itdoes to me, because that's what
I wear when I'm not in work,which I thought was a good
answer at the time. But youknow, needless to say, we we
eventually agreed that it wasn'tappropriate, and next time he
(29:19):
came in something moreappropriate. I'm not sure what
it was it looked like he wasgoing to the beach surfing that
way.
Julian Bishop (29:24):
Yeah. Which I don't have a problem with. Yeah,
I mean, if you're doingknowledge job, and you're not
client facing, then it doesn'tmatter what you wear, as long as
it's not indecent.
Michael Moran (29:36):
This is one of the things which is quite
difficult if your supplier istrying to work out what is
appropriate to wear it when yougo into an organization. Whereas
before you would go in as soonas we said, the tie and the
jacket, where you go in someplaces. Now they will look at
your thing completely out oftouch because you're clearly not
(29:57):
a modern thinker, whereasthey're equally if Do you go
completely dressed out? Are theyall small casual, I will recall
going into one of the silver,silver circle, law firms magic
circle. And it was on day one hehad was dressed down. But I've
been asked to go in. So I wentin and I thought was reasonably
smart. When the jacket no tie,Julian, I remember saw the HR
(30:21):
person, he looked at me, and helooked at me, and he looked at
me down. And I could tellstraightaway, he thought, for
them, I was inappropriatelydressed, I should say, he was in
your classic suited and Buchaand attire, Neil say we didn't
get the business.
Julian Bishop (30:36):
Now, I think there is something about, you
know, if your company isinvolved in work for clients,
then you've got to meet yourclients expectations and a whole
range of areas. And sotherefore, if you want to win
business, you need to dressappropriately, you know, however
that is, can I move to aseparate area? You know, what,
where Americans were in theoffice was the subject, I like
(30:58):
to discuss the topic of personalhygiene, which I think in the US
is, on average, much higher thanthe UK. Okay. So I would say for
example, certainly for women,that nails and hair are
uniformly excellent in the USworkplace. And indeed, there are
(31:19):
so many nail salons in America,again, it's a very regular thing
for, for many women to do weeklyor monthly, American women in
general will wear quite a lot ofmakeup. The shirts will always
be clean ions. I've never had anissue with people who hadn't had
sufficient deodorant or washing.
So that's one area, you know,which I think the US people in
(31:43):
the office, they are clean, andthe influence in the UK, they're
not. I certainly have found inthe UK, when I was working.
There have been times when allof those things are not the
case. Yes, harsh. And then thereare some peculiar things in us,
you know, which I've never seenin the EU or haven't rarely seen
in the UK. So people wearingbranded company branded clothes,
(32:06):
they work for SAP, let's sayjust to take a company at random
and very large numbers of peoplethere will wear a shirt with a
company's brand on their ontheir chest. That always struck
me as taking a little bit toofar. But that's quite common
here.
Michael Moran (32:27):
Yeah. And do they have to wear them? I mean,
because obviously no, no, no.
They choose to wear they chooseto Yes, yes. Yes. One presume is
because they're proud of thecompany. I wasn't sure that the
logos on the shears, but you dosee lots of American people who
were the sort of company flag asa as a lapel badge. I remember
the CIPD I remember they handedme this. I thought, I don't
(32:48):
think I should be wearing that.
No, absolutely not. But it wasinteresting to see the people
who did, the people did wear it.
Julian Bishop (32:57):
And it's also number one, she's working at a
pharmaceutical company and herfirst job as a representative to
doctors. So she goes and visitsDoctor surgeries every day.
She's taken to wearing scrubs
Michael Moran (33:10):
wearing scrubs.
Why would you do that?
Julian Bishop (33:13):
She says that she's taken more seriously, when
she wears the uniform of themedical profession.
Michael Moran (33:21):
Gosh, even though he's selling well, they're not
really selling Oh, yes, they areJulian she is selling maybe by
various ways but you're stillselling
Julian Bishop (33:33):
well I guess we all salesmen aren't we and then
you get sort of nice ones aswell. Some of the people on it
help desks and they have theirown uniform don't they have the
pouch for the mobile phone whichthey attached to their belt,
they maybe have some keyshanging from the belt they've
got maybe in a shirt pocketthey've got some pens which are
(33:53):
inserted that's a sort of youknow, you get these sort of
niche ones depending on you knowwhich function you perform in,
in a in a particular company ifyou come across that is that
popular in the UK?
Michael Moran (34:06):
It is interesting, isn't it? So I will
say I think with li ke and againI think you know it you often do
you see labeled victory ifyou're talking to customers. So
yes, I'm not sure about whatyour pens are that popular these
days in doc fest pockets but butyes, the phone is a little
(34:27):
jazzy. Hold all thing.
Julian Bishop (34:30):
My perspective is in the US everything is a lot
less formal. But there are equalnumber of rules to that in a
very formal society where if itwere my a suit and tie.
Michael Moran (34:44):
Now you have one thing we haven't talked about if
you're not exactly like to dressbut it is which is the rise of
the backpack. Do you commuteinto town now or get on a tube?
There was a time where you willsee people holding briefcases or
taxi cases or ladies is very bigdesigner bags. But now and this
may be a function if you saidthe fact that you you've got a
(35:06):
pair of shoes in it, you havethis huge backpack. It is a
known fact it's always Michaelfactor that if you've got a
backpack on you, you completelyoblivious spatially to people
around you. So when you didinitially you bump into them,
because you've not been hugeonboard the back. And I do I'm
not a great fan of backpacks.
Julian not a great fan.
Julian Bishop (35:29):
When I was working, I think I had a
backpack from about 1997. So thelast briefcase I had was in the
90s when I was at the Bank ofEngland, and then you get a
backpack, you've got yourlaptop, and then you never turn
back from that
Michael Moran (35:45):
was I would have what I call a man bag. So it's a
satchel type thing that youhave, but not a backpack because
at least I can see where it iswhere the backpack you just go
obliviously knocking peopleright and left view as you
stride into the office.
Julian Bishop (36:02):
What's your interest in the subject? Because
Michael Moran (36:04):
I was I was still difficulty. So I suppose I think
we entered it last time. If yougo back to things like madmen,
where I don't know, other thingshave changed that drink in the
office and smoke in the office.
But there was there was a waypeople dressed there wasn't
that, you know, a dare I say itwas much smarter than it was
today. And we are seeing sort ofstandards. Generally if I may we
(36:28):
you hinted that when you weretalking about hygiene and stock
pickers aware of it, if you hadto dress in a particular way,
and it was rigorously enforced.
I'm assuming most people did doit. If today you can wear
whatever you like. And althoughwe acknowledge there's a certain
ad mentality, there is no doubtyour mike tyson loving friend
(36:51):
will wear whatever they like anddo whatever they like, I
suppose. Yeah,
Julian Bishop (36:55):
my problem is, in those olden days, you said that
people were drinking in theoffice. And I remember when I
was at the Bank of England, Iseem to remember that the Bank
of England had three bars, andthat most managers would have
their own drinks cabinets. Andso this meant that by the
afternoon, the bulk of theworkforce were pretty much
(37:18):
plastered. I certainly my firstmanager, perhaps I ought to
identify him quite so readily.
Certainly, my impression isfirst time in the you know, like
the professional workforce, onething you would never do is see
him in the afternoon. If you hadto see him about something a
meeting, you had to do that inthe morning, because by the
(37:40):
afternoon, he was so lubricated,that you'll be there for hours.
So you wouldn't get any senseout of it. And you wouldn't be
able to escape. They may havebeen smarter, but I don't know,
I think a lot of theprofessionalism in those days
was at least the company I wasworking in was much less.
Michael Moran (37:58):
And it's difficult, isn't it? Because I
think you're painting ageneralization, which clearly
doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
But there is no doubt attitudestowards smoking, or drinking
were mean more liberal, I workedin the insurance market. And the
Lloyds brokers notoriously, youknow, and to some extent still
(38:18):
do had very long liquid lunches.
It wasn't everybody, but it wasmuch more acceptable for people
to drink energy said drinkcabinets in the office. So that
that's definitely I'm not quitesure that ties with sort of
deterioration of dress code.
Julian Bishop (38:38):
No, I just, I just don't think their dress
code is that important. But Ithink being sober in the
workplace is quite important. Iguess that's my point is because
I'm really tech industry, wherethis thing just doesn't matter
what you look like in most techcompanies, maybe with the
exception of IBM or something,but most of the others, it
doesn't matter. And it doesn'tmatter. Because it doesn't
(39:00):
matter. What you wear doesn'tmatter. What matters is, you
know, what skills you bring howyou work with others, you know
that your productivity is highthat you you know, you want to
be innovative and creative.
Those are things that matter.
So, and that is the reason thatthey focus on those things,
whether you wear a tie in aparticular type of suit, proper
(39:23):
brogues, or whatever, those arefor things, which people could
put a lot of focus on, but theydon't matter.
Michael Moran (39:30):
So your your treatise here is that it's not
relevant in this sort of senseof Office productivity for most
Julian Bishop (39:38):
I mean, obviously, if I was bearing my
wife, I wouldn't want thefuneral director, you know, to
be there and Bermuda shorts andflip flops and I would expect
the funeral director at thatpoint to be wearing a dark suit.
So I think there are someexceptions, but that's what they
are exceptions, not the norm.
Michael Moran (39:57):
We could explore does what you want. a
significant impact on yourperformance. Does what you were
a significant factor inperformance. Does, what I can
tell you and well psychologicalresearch that so to speak is if,
for example, you go for aninterview, either wearing
(40:17):
something which is new, orwearing something that's come
freshly from the laundry, willenhance a your confidence and be
your performance. One of thethings why people had uniforms,
not was just one of therecognition that sort of it made
you look and feel authoritarian.
Yeah. I'm pretty certain that'swhy police forces on the army
have it's very clear any sort ofdesignation, right. So it is,
(40:42):
there is just impact wasbehavior.
Julian Bishop (40:47):
Yeah, if you were a psychologist, you might put my
dislike of uniform back to myschool days. Because when I was
at school, I wore a uniform thatwas designed in 1552, and hadn't
been changed ever since.
Understandably, well, I neverreally minded wearing that at
school. I wasn't keen tocontinue that method of dress or
(41:10):
that, that sticking withsomething which was, you know,
many centuries old.
Michael Moran (41:19):
And I'm gonna say, Julian, because a we know
why schools have uniforms.
Particularly why they came wasto students did look like, so
there was no evidence of sort ofhow wealthy you were right.
Julian Bishop (41:32):
But that's the positive side of my school. And
that that was
Michael Moran (41:35):
for the child who likes to stand out, Julian, and
I suspect you were one of thoseactually dressed in like
everyone else. Is that's theproblem. Oh, by the way, I get
that. I like school you. I couldsee any point that the school
uniform, and I told them thatfrequently. And surely, it got
me known, but for the wrongreasons. Right. So did you have
(41:57):
a cap at your school union?
What's a cap? School cap? No, we
Julian Bishop (42:03):
think so. My school uniform, was designed in
1552 had yellow stockings up tothe knee had britches, which
went down to the knee from theother side. I had a long black
coat with buttons down the frontand a rough relative, they would
call bands, but the easiest wayto describe it as calling it a
(42:25):
rough. So that was my schooluniform. It was good in the way
that my school was a charityschool. So at the time that I
was there, you you paidaccording to your parents
income, and it had mostly poorchildren. So what it did do it
equalized, everyone, literally Ihad no idea about people's
family's background, because wewere all dressed in the same
(42:48):
thing. So that was positive. Buton the negative side, it was far
too hot in the summer, and fartoo cold in the winter. Wasn't
really practical. And wheneverwe went to the nearby town, we
used to get beaten up by thelocal hoodlums who called it
penguin bashing
Michael Moran (43:06):
I live with you see now did give you ways if you
were caught not wearing itproperly. Did you go into
detention?
Julian Bishop (43:12):
Yes, I'm fat.
That was pretty much the maintime that I ever got punished at
school was for dress codeinfractions. Yeah, so not having
the socks pulled up from nothaving the band's tightened
having them? Yeah, thepunishment that usually was you
had to run around a field a fewtimes.
Michael Moran (43:32):
Yeah. So So here's where we suddenly is
similar because the cap Ireferred to, if you were caught
not wearing a cap intodetention, and me and the
tensions were very familiarfriends. I used to point out,
coming off the Council Statescene wearing the cap. As I
left, The Guardian was just asignal for people to either a
(43:53):
best throw the cap into abubble, and a worse you damn
good coughing. Although the goodnews was Julia, it made me a
very quick runner. I live notalways with a couple of my head.
But I could move away quicklywhen Joe was chasing me out this
date.
Julian Bishop (44:09):
Well, interestingly, my former school
has changed the dress code forwhen you go into the nearby
town. When I was there, you hadto go in in full school uniform.
Now you're not allowed to go inand full school uniform due to
health and safety reasons. Thefact that you'll get beaten up
by the local headless. And soyou know, obviously it's PC gone
(44:30):
mad. Never did me any harm. Ican see the reason for a uniform
in those cases and equalizing Ican see that, but I can't really
see that in a modernprofessional company.
Michael Moran (44:44):
Conclude the section. So isn't it interesting
that when we do say to people inthe world of work, there is no
dress code. We do tend togravitate towards a dress code.
We dress like other people. Sothe very thing that school you
didn't want to do In the worldof work, we would appear to
dress like everyone elseJulian next time. What we're
(45:17):
going to do is
Julian Bishop (45:21):
we're going to discuss the city of Memphis. We
are going to talk about whyAmericans like trucks.
Michael Moran (45:29):
Okay? And that will be episode 46 That's
correct. So, until episode 46Julian it's goodbye for me and
it's goodbye
Julian Bishop (45:40):
from him right
Unknown (46:14):
you
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