May 10, 2023 • 50 mins
In Episode 47, Michael and Julian talk about
1. Van Life. Have you thought about living in a van and traveling across America? Millions have this lifestyle
2. Skyscrapers. Competition between New York and Chicago started a worldwide trend for very tall buildings. We discuss building regulations, elevators, and our favorite buildings
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Available here to buy as a paperback, ebook, or audiobook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Moran (00:16):
Welcome to Episode 47, of American Journey
with Michael Moran. And JulianBishop. Today is van life. And
you're going to start byexplaining by life to me,
because by the way, I talked tomy beloved about van life. I
don't explain how you drop outof ease. And then she says, Oh,
what's it like? You rememberwhen we went to the beach and
(00:38):
Venice Beach? And we saw thosetwo guys with I, she hadn't
realized the motorcycles, butthe little, the little sort of
trailers, she said, where theywere sleeping in, are you going
to be talking about them? And Isaid, No, Julian's, rule that
out, because they're to do withbikers, you need to qualify
those who cannot come under theheading of vanlife.
Julian Bishop (00:57):
Well, let me first just set the context for
why I want to talk about thissubject. And it really is part
of your education, because Ithink you are inclined to a view
that Americans are veryindustrious, they work very
hard, they're really big ontechnology. There are a lot of
Americans who will fit in thatcategory. But there's also lots
(01:19):
of minorities who live vastlydifferent lives, from that sort
of standard American. And wetalked about it when we talked
about Amish and I said, theAmish are very American, because
America is the only place wherethey really can live effectively
on this planet. Van life, Ithink, is fairly similar sizable
(01:41):
number of people who live aquite a different life, Van
life, as I see it is acombination of people who
basically live on the road. Andit consists of people who have
an RV, and we're not going todiscuss those this week. And
also includes people who, youknow, maybe have a purpose built
(02:03):
van, you know, like a VW van,something like that, or a
Mercedes. And then the finalgroup is people who have
purchased a vehicle and havedone it up so they can live in
it. And that's the group thatwe're going to talk about today.
So these are the permanenthomes, permanent or semi
(02:24):
permanent. Okay, so if I askedyou to guess how many people
permanently or semi permanentlylived in a farm, rather than a
house? What number would yougive me in the States?
Michael Moran (02:36):
I have no idea.
But I'm going to go, let's say,because it's a lot of people in
the states a million,
Julian Bishop (02:42):
it used to be a million before COVID. But
actually, one thing which hashappened, and I don't know
whether this is entirely becauseof COVID, they believe the
latest estimate is 3.1 million.
So 1% of Americans live partlyor fully in a fan will travel
the US and have their lifestyle,you know, based in a farm.
Michael Moran (03:07):
Okay, so my next question relates to so I'm gonna
put it delicately. Is this a setof people say, who are no longer
working or not working? Or arethey working with going to where
the jobs are? So to get thischaracterize sort of the typical
van life person, because in mymind, I'm thinking, or
(03:27):
presumably, they're of a certainage, and they don't have to work
be like you, Julian, so tospeak, you know?
Julian Bishop (03:33):
So obviously, you within that 3.1 million, which
is around about a percent of theUS population, you've got a very
broad church indeed. So you dohave a small number of people
who are retired, they typicallyare going to have an RV. So
we're not really going to focuson them in this discussion. That
(03:53):
will be the group which probablypeople can understand easiest,
because some of these IVs arehuge. They are like sort of
houses on wheels. There is a byfar the majority of the rest are
working. They find a way ofgenerating some income as they
move around. So maybe they'redigital nomads, and they can do
(04:14):
their job. And all they need isan internet connection. Have you
seen the film Nomad lands?
Michael? No, I haven't had oneand Oscar was a couple of years
ago, and that portrayed a groupof people who move around the
country and they get work inwhichever part of the country
they're working in. And in Nomadland, they concentrate on, you
(04:35):
know, people who are working forAmazon during their peak season,
then there are people who haveenough money, you know, they can
cover their expenses. Any ideahow much you can live on if
you're a couple? You've alreadygot your van.
Michael Moran (04:52):
I've no idea. I mean, you you used to do some
research, tell me what thenumber looks like. I truly would
have no idea What the averagegolfer living? I mean, and by
the way, coming back to thiswork in So are you saying these
people will be equivalent to aRomani or gypsy we have in the
UK who sort of move around forvarious reasons and doing jobs
(05:14):
too. And go those, are we on theright path here, or
Julian Bishop (05:17):
just think about your sort of youngish
professional, who has maybe somemarketing skills, something like
that, who can pick up variousbits of work from via, for a
variety of different clients.
And they do that while they'reon the road to stop somewhere,
and they'll go into Starbucks orsomething similar for two or
(05:37):
three hours, they'll do theirwork, and then they'll do the
stuff which they enjoy. So thinkabout that type of person, that
sort of Generation Z, maybe,maybe a young millennial, and
they'll pick up enough work to,you know, cover all their
expenses and give themselves,you know, a decent life.
Michael Moran (05:57):
And in the podcast, and I do know, one
person in the UK, who lives in acanal boat, and he has you
described is it as long as youget into the internet, it is
selling sort of a system, theactual getting word does not
causing problems. When you say,well, we're weird, what's the
address? If they want to applyfor credit? You know, where have
(06:17):
you lived in the last fiveyears? Sort of questions that
people ask, how does that workif they're just on the road all
the time?
Julian Bishop (06:25):
And I think that is an issue for many people who,
who are living a fan life isthat they they feel this
discrimination against them?
Because of those types ofquestions. So they feel that
it's slightly more difficult forthem to get a job because it is
more difficult for them toanswer that question. In terms
of having a physical address,there are a number of companies
that you can get a physicaladdress for. And you can send
(06:48):
the mail, many credit cardcompanies will accept those
addresses. So that's fairlystraightforward for $100 a year
something like that, they willdeal with all of that address
issue or, or maybe they've gota, you know, sister or parents,
that person has an address. Andthey can use that address for
(07:10):
their mail and for their, youknow, for their details of where
they are formally living. Butobviously, if you're looking for
a, you know, job, let's say in abar, and then somebody says,
What, What's your address, theremay be some prejudice against
people who are living in a van,because maybe the, the employer
wants a little bit morecertainty and wants somebody
(07:31):
with a local address. Andthey'll prefer someone with a
local address that rather thansomeone who can have a bad night
and then just decide they'removing on the next day,
Michael Moran (07:41):
where do we park these vans? I mean, so they park
them
Julian Bishop (07:45):
in a variety of different places. Do you
remember the car park that wewent to when we went to the dog
beach in Venice? Yes. I wasthere the other day after our
last podcast. And you know, wesaid we're going to do van life.
And I thought I would just do arecord of that car park and work
out how many are definitely vanlife fans. And I counted seven.
(08:08):
So those are people who hadparked in a, you know, a free
car park, you know, there's veryclear signs that you're not
allowed to park there overnight.
But I bet if I went back thereat 10 o'clock, there would be
another number of ants in thatcar park. And they would park
somewhere like that. And that'squite a reasonable place for
them to park. Because if youremember, there was some you
(08:29):
know, it was near a beach. Andthere were some showers that
people could use some showersand there were toilets. So you
know that that would be areasonably good place to park I
understand that. NationalForests are very good places to
park, because you can park forfree pretty much all the
Walmarts allow you to park forone night in their car park.
(08:49):
Although many people don't likethat type of car park because
there are a lot of lights in awarm in a Walmart car park. But
Walmart have always beenfriendly towards this. This
group of people that areminority will pay for a
campsite, you have to rememberthat this lifestyle is very
allied to the go with lesslifestyle. Have you heard of a
(09:12):
go with less lifestyle? No,
Michael Moran (09:15):
I haven't. And this ties back to the question.
How much do you need to live onwhich you have not given the
answer for yet?
Julian Bishop (09:21):
Yeah, so So you want to give me a guess about
you know how much people canlive on?
Michael Moran (09:30):
$10,000 go? Yeah, it's about
Julian Bishop (09:33):
$10,000 per person. Obviously, you have
people who will live on a lotmore than that. There's kind of
a movement, which is I don'twant to be spending all my time
working in order to get moneyfor these things, which I don't
value all that much like a housein the suburbs. What I really
want to do is I want to do thethings that I want to do in my
(09:55):
life, instead of earning a lotof money so I can spend a lot of
money What I'm going to do isI'm going to go with less, I'm
either going to go with less nowjust get enough money so that I
can live on and then enjoy allthe free time that I have. Or
I'm going to earn lots of moneynow, in order that I can retire,
you know, when I'm 35, and I'llhave enough money to retire on
(10:19):
at that age. So there's thatkind of movements, and many
people are attracted to and inparticular, I think one of the
reasons for the popularity offan life is that generation Z,
or as you call them, in the UKgeneration said, many of them
have a different attitudetowards the way that you should
live life. They saw theirparents wiped out in the Great
(10:42):
Depression of the naughties. Andthey say, I don't really want to
have that lifestyle, I want todo something different. So they
either earn a little and live onlittle, or they earn a lot in
order that they can retire at anearly age, and then live on a
little at a later point.
Michael Moran (11:00):
Okay, and not necessarily the retirees, but
let me just turn because Isuspect and we do have this
problem in the UK, that thesepeople are not necessarily that
welcome. In fact, you alreadyevidence that by saying Venice
Beach, you're not allowed tostay overnight. In fact, I'm
pretty certain Venice Beachwon't encourage them to stay in
for any length of time. And I'mpainting this picture while you
(11:22):
and if you want to do it anyway.
So they're using a minute is butthey're not paying for Mina
does, as I suspect they'reworking on the black economy,
you know, and certainly here,and we have influx of I would
say Romanians or Irishtravelers, and they're very,
they they come they exit thecarpark so leave a mess, and the
local residents association,open arms and the police spend
(11:45):
the summer chasing them off, andthen they go back to Ireland.
And sure enough, the followingsummer, they come again, I'm
gonna sense that sort of,although you're talking about a
particular lifestyle, it hasconsequences. And consequently,
some of those consequences forlocal residents are not well
received.
Julian Bishop (12:05):
Obviously, I can't really tell you about what
other people think. Andobviously in the UK, there's a
lot of prejudice against gypsiesagainst the Romani community, I
don't feel that there's the samelevel of prejudice here. I think
that most of these people wholive a fan life, they leave very
little in the way of footprints,you know, so if you go into, for
(12:27):
example, the toilets and theshower area in the beaches near
Venice, those are clean andtidy. There's no, they're not
really doing anythingdestructive. The local
authorities, they have a rule,which says you were You can't
park there. But I don't know towhat extent that that is
policed, I suspect that youcould probably get away with it
(12:49):
for months and months. And thenbecause somebody's actually
going to come around at nine or10 o'clock, when you're still
there and say, Hold on, you needto move on. And I suspect that
most authorities don't do that.
And they wouldn't do it unlessthere was an issue. You're not
allowed to do it. But thepolicing will be very light,
there's nobody really sufferinga massive detriment here. Okay.
Michael Moran (13:10):
But you also say that they, they tend not to, or
they use very little, the usualparts where you pay a fee, and
you get electricity and usefacilities, they truly are
living off the grid.
Julian Bishop (13:24):
It's about 20% of people who will use at any time
a paid caravan site or orcamping site, they might go to
something like a national park,you can in your van, you can
stay in a national park verycheaply for you know, I think
it's up to two weeks, you know,they might do something like
that, but it's incredibly cheap.
Yeah, the National Park isencouraging you to come and live
(13:47):
in nature. If I can just correctyou on one other thing, you made
an assumption that most of thesepeople will be living on the
black economy. And obviously, Idon't know what percentage
would. But I think many of thesepeople would actually go through
the payroll of companies, andthey would, you know, file tax
returns, just as anyone elsewould.
Michael Moran (14:11):
Why do you believe that? I think
Julian Bishop (14:13):
because of the nature of the companies that
they're going to be doing workfor. If they are digital nomads,
and they're working marketingthings for various different
customers, most of theircustomers are going to do it.
They don't have mechanisms fordoing things off the books. So
if that's the type of if theyhave a knowledge type base job,
(14:33):
that is the type of okay, theywill be paying taxes because the
company will do it all throughofficial channel. And
Michael Moran (14:42):
that was I was thinking more because of the
issue about addresses and thenature of the employment. They
would like to be freelancersfree contractors. Yes, I
Julian Bishop (14:51):
would say most of them will be freelancers so in
the States, you know, in COVIDIt's definitely been blurred.
Yeah, because so much working athome. The company never checks.
On your home, they'd have achecks, check whether you're
there, as long as you are doingthe work for your company, they
don't actually know whether youare at your home and Acacia
Avenue, or whether you're livingin a van somewhere in, in
(15:13):
Florida or, or Arizona, as
Michael Moran (15:17):
you referenced in most of the people, you think
what I call white collarknowledge workers were my
perceptual would be a spheregroup, these people will be blue
collar workers, you know, sortof casually behind I mean,
especially, they're going to
Julian Bishop (15:29):
be mixed areas.
And once the ones I have met,are very much white collar
workers. However, in the filmNomad lands, the ones they
portrayed were much more sort ofblue collar workers, although
it's not always easy to tell, tobe honest.
Michael Moran (15:47):
The ones that you've met, so tell me a little
bit about their stories, then
Julian Bishop (15:51):
I'll talk to anyone that I'm very interested
and how other people see theworld and live their lives. So
and in return, they're alwaysvery friendly to me that, you
know, they tend to be laid backpeople, they tend to be people
who are interesting themselves,they have thoughts a little bit
(16:12):
about what they want from life.
And they are, you know, somewhataggressively pursuing that. So
they, they make interestingconversations, most of the
people I've met are couples,although I understand that a
substantial number of peoplewho, you know, who do this
individually, but I think mostof the ones that all the ones
I've met have really beencouples, they usually have got
(16:34):
plenty of time to talk and youknow, you can usually have a
pretty good conversation andfind out their life story. You
know, many of them are muchyounger than me, you know, I
think the average age is early40s. But many of the ones I've
talked to, I think have been intheir 30s. Quite a few of the
ones I've met have been verymuch into crypto. So one of
their mechanisms historicallyanyway, for earning money has
(16:58):
been through playing the cryptomarkets as that has disappeared
as crypto has massively reducedin value. I'm sure most of these
people have found othermechanisms of making money,
particularly in this market,which is a very full employment
market, I would imagine many ofthese people really don't have a
problem in getting jobs. It'sjust they want a job which is in
(17:18):
tune with their lifestyle. Theydon't want to be working every
hour known to man, they want tobe working minimally so they can
enjoy life maximally.
Michael Moran (17:29):
And presumably they like life on the road, I
don't want to put down apermanent base there. Most of
the jobs are short term, theywill move on, I'm assuming if
that's what they want you ifthey don't want to be tied down
to sort of bricks and mortar oron location.
Julian Bishop (17:45):
I think it's hard work moving all the time,
Michael, okay. There's a group Ibelong to, which is kind of a
nomad group, there are still afew people who travel and move
places every week or so. Butmost people, they like to have a
base for a month or two, andthen move on to a base. I'm
guessing from that experiencethat some people do want to
(18:09):
spend a little bit longer. Soyou may find, you know, the
winter in a variety differentplaces in in Florida, and then
they'll go somewhere else lateron in the year.
Michael Moran (18:19):
So he's quite seasonal moves then.
Julian Bishop (18:21):
I think many people like to have a certain
weather. Yeah, which suits theirlifestyle. I've met people who
they spend the winter in a skiresort and they spend the summer
in a river doing rafting. And soyou know, so they move around
with their interests. So butmost people, I guess, are going
(18:43):
to want reasonably decentweather Most of the time. It's
very outdoorsy life,
Michael Moran (18:49):
especially if you live in the valley,
Julian Bishop (18:51):
especially if you live in a van and they tend to
create their own yard, you know,which they can enjoy being
outside in the deckchairs orwhatever. Yeah, so it's not just
their van they're living andthey're you they're, they're
living in usually the spaceoutside their van as well.
Michael Moran (19:08):
And what else can you tell me about van life?
Well, have you thought
Julian Bishop (19:12):
about converting a vehicle into a van a few
thoughts about what that mightentail?
Michael Moran (19:19):
Under no circumstances would I get a hold
of a van? Because we presume youhave to have something with a
fairly substantial good ifyou're going to live in it,
you're going to want to sleep init.
Julian Bishop (19:30):
Well, there are people who buy purpose built
vans, those are right at theYeah, they're not the people
going with less. They're thepeople who are buying that, that
$100,000 Mercedes van orwhatever, or they're getting an
old VW van. So there are thosepeople but for most people, what
they're doing is they're takinga vehicle and they're converting
it into something which islivable, and there are broadly
(19:53):
three or four types of vehiclethat people convert. So number
one is the school bus orSchoolies, or they're called,
they get an old school bus. Andthey, you know, they may spend a
year or so converting thatschool bus. So it becomes kind
of like a caravan.
Michael Moran (20:11):
And we're starting straightaway Julian,
that's not van life. That's buslife. We you changing the
parameters here
Julian Bishop (20:18):
I am, but I do remember one of daughter number
two's friends, their next doorneighbor, they had bought a bus,
they'd spent the best part of ayear converting it plenty in a
kitchen, rudimentary kitchen,all that type of stuff. And I
remember daughter, Number Two'sfriend being very disapproving
of the fact that this familywe're also going to take their
(20:38):
children on this school bus arestill going to be a school bus,
but only for their children. Andthey're going to travel around
the US, showing the children abit of life but also having a
sizable enough living quartersfor you know, for a family of
four or whatever. I
Michael Moran (20:57):
mean, that's basically an alternative
lifestyle, isn't it? So, I mean,
Julian Bishop (21:00):
this whole thing is an alternative, right? Yeah.
So the second type of thingwhich has converted this a
minivan Do you recall Lorna'sminivan people that is so
classic vehicle that you canpick up fairly quickly, and
people will convert that into avan, which can be travel
Oberlin.
Michael Moran (21:21):
Now, I don't recall Orleans vehicle, and I'm
thinking mini van, as in themini car, and there were vans,
and it can't possibly leaveanybody who believes it so soon.
Oh,
Julian Bishop (21:31):
so there'll be like a Dodge Caravan or a
Chrysler Town and Countrysomething. And we bought that
vehicle so that we could travelaround in the US, we weren't
living in it, because we wouldhave hotels or apartments. But
we wanted a sizable vehicle,it's got seven seats, got a very
large trunk area, or boot area,Scott's sliding doors at the
(21:55):
side. So many people would takea van like that, they would take
out the seats, not at the front,and they would, you know, put in
mattresses and storage and maybesome rudimentary cooking
equipment, that type of thing,they would fit out something
like that, you know, you couldbuy maybe, you know, a high
mileage vehicle like that, maybefor four or 5000. And do it up
(22:18):
for a couple of 1000 that willget you on the road. So that
would be you know, one option.
Another option is to get avehicle like that, but it's a
cargo van doesn't have thewindows at the back gives you a
little bit more privacy atnight, that type of thing. That
as I understand is the is thesort of vehicle of choice. And
then finally, some people usesome pickup trucks. We certainly
(22:40):
met some people who were doingthe van life with a pickup
truck, and then they you know,they had a mattress in the bed
at the back. And then they wouldhave an awning which they would
put over that mattress, the mostrustic and
Michael Moran (22:55):
you're not selling this idea to me, Julian
at all, ya know, sleeping in amattress in the back of a van.
You know? Obviously, if you hadto do that, yeah, but you
wouldn't want to do that for toolong. I don't think
Julian Bishop (23:08):
the average length of this lifestyle is
about two and a half years.
Yeah. People don't do itforever. They do it. And then
they find something else thatthey would like to do
differently. After that, is notthat they say it's a terrible
idea. But it's it's a hardlifestyle. It's not easy,
because for example, where doyou go to the toilet? Where do
(23:28):
you have a shower? Yeah, wheredo you cook your food? You know,
all of those things. You've gotto find a solution for now. Any
idea where what type ofsolutions they find for this,
Michael?
Michael Moran (23:40):
Oh, in terms of toilet cooking? I'm assuming
that cooking and showers? Yes.
So I'm assuming they're usingpublic facilities. Most of the
time, there may be some verywell suited fossil bathing lakes
or whatever but I'm, I'massuming things like assuming
the UK would be sports centers,you know, where you can go in
and so as I'm thinking thecooking is more tricky, isn't
(24:03):
it? So we're
Julian Bishop (24:06):
so the majority for the showering the majority
of people in Van life have a gymmembership. Yeah, yeah. And what
they do is they get a gymmembership for something which
has gyms throughout the US ifthat's where there are in the
US, and they will go to that gymjust as you or I might go to the
gym and they'll use theirfacilities afterwards. You know,
(24:26):
obviously, if you're by a beachlots most beaches have showers,
they'll use those showers. Yeah,I mean, I always find America
quite civilized in terms ofrestrooms or toilets. You know,
in the UK or in Europe,sometimes darn difficult to find
a toilet that you can go to inthe States, pretty much any
sizable shop, any shoppingcenter, they're all going to
(24:47):
have facilities that you can goto and then cooking most people
get you know, they get one ofthose gas stoves and they will
just you know, do cooking on youknow, in one pot and they'll do
that knocking on that gas stove.
And then of course, in theStates, there are lots and lots
of barbecue facilities prettymuch where you know, it's very
(25:08):
normal in the States, for thereto be a barbecue facility that
people can go to and do theircooking. So I guess they they
make use of things like that?
Michael Moran (25:19):
Yes. Okay, well, I'm not sure I'm sold on sold on
it. And again, I'm assumingalso, that as you're traveling,
if you find somewhere which isreally nice and has got the
amenities, the attraction tostay where you are, as opposed
to move in, will be great,because you've just described,
when you go around, you've gotto find somewhere, not only it's
(25:40):
nice to go, and you can park,we've got access to amenities,
Julian Bishop (25:45):
you're viewing this from the perspective of a
69 year old. Yeah. And I thinkyou've got to cast your mind
back to a time when you were inyour early 30s. Just remember
that, you know, there's somecomforts that you haven't
necessarily got used to buythem. These are people who are
(26:06):
enjoying the outside you know,so we will see them on the
beach, they will be enjoyingnature and they'll be enjoying
the company of the of the oftheir of their partner, many of
whom have a dog about half ofthe people have a dog, the vans
they also have many of them willhave solar panels, you can
either get kind of an otherbatteries, which you've got your
(26:30):
hookup to your alternator, sothat they're being recharged.
But I think many of the van lifepeople prefer getting their
power from from solar panels,which is attached to their van.
So I can't sell you thislifestyle. Is that what we're
saying? Like,
Michael Moran (26:45):
in my youth, I spent time camping, I spent time
in caravans. And for a shortperiod, yes, exciting a novel,
but I never was attracted tothat would be my permanent
lifestyle.
Julian Bishop (26:58):
No, but the fact that the average time is only
two and a half years yeah,probably means that people
decide they want to do somethingelse after a few years. I mean,
I guess some people stop veryquickly, and then others will go
a little bit longer. But youknow, you don't hear often
people have been doing it for 20years, you know, maybe they find
(27:19):
somewhere they really like wherethe cost of living is low, and
they decide they're going tosettle down there, whatever,
Michael Moran (27:24):
I suppose I appreciate this is my
perspective. And it's clearlyclearly not the perspective of
most people, but a sense ofadopting that lifestyle, because
it is one where you can liverelatively cheaply, and have
this fear that is this one stepto living on the streets. There
are several those people they'renot by choice, but because
(27:47):
that's the income making thelifestyle they can only afford
Julian Bishop (27:51):
undoubtedly some of the people living van life
are people who were there. Notnecessarily through choice, but
through circumstance. Yeah, andcertainly no mad land, the film
shows that don't believe thatthe majority of these people are
there through, you know, becausethey're forced to most people
are there because this is thelifestyle they want.
Michael Moran (28:12):
Okay, but what you are saying it's a
significant part of thepopulation, you know, it's
Julian Bishop (28:18):
yeah, 1% and it's really ballooned. You know,
since COVID, it's reallyballooned. And I'm guessing that
it might fall back a little bit.
But I'm also thinking that thisis quite an appealing lifestyle
for Generation Z, who don't wantto be completely wedded to their
job.
Michael Moran (28:36):
Okay, that's my life.
Julian Bishop (28:39):
Now, there's one other application to this, which
is very niche for peopletraveling to the US. And I used
to be, I think, quite popular,it's a little bit more difficult
to do now. But it's people whowould come to the US for three,
maybe six months, and they wouldpurchase a van like this. And
(28:59):
they will kitted out minimallyand they would explore the US
used to be something that peoplewould do when they were late
teens or early 20s. And that isstill you know, people still do
that what's difficult. Now, manystates do not allow you to buy a
car unless you have an addressto give them within their state.
(29:22):
That is something that peoplehave done for decades. Yeah. And
maybe there are some of ourlisteners who would be
interested in that. And if youare getting tired, I'd be very
happy to help you work out howto do that. And in return, you
can come on the podcast and tellus all about your experience
(29:50):
So Michael, we moved toskyscrapers, snakes tan so why
did you pick this subject?
Michael Moran (29:56):
I pick this subject because I think if you
have I'm British, and you'recoming to America. And you ask
them someone to say, you know,five things that you'd expect to
see in America going backslightly, thinking sort of my
generation in the 50s and 60s,then you would say skyscrapers,
your, your, your vision of NewYork, which I specula time was
(30:20):
like no other place on the worldwith all these huge buildings.
Julian Bishop (30:24):
Well, one other place on the world, which are
the place do you say that be?
Famously, there was the warbetween Chicago and New York?
Yeah, the skyscrapers. That'sthe reason that US is known for
skyscrapers because afterfriendly competition between the
two cities of who can build thetallest, the most beautiful?
Michael Moran (30:44):
Well, I'm gonna say, actually, I think I'm from
the UK visitor perspective,clearly, Chicago is not
necessarily as well known, andprobably not aware of the
competition between the twocities, build them, whereas New
York, you think of Manhattan,you think of skyscrapers, don't
you? And, and we're going totalk about it for a long time,
the Empire State Building wasthe skyscraper. Now, of course,
(31:08):
I'm meeting the next generation,things have changed because
actually, we started looking atacross the world, you know, I
mean, where is the the tallestbuilding in the world? Julian?
Julian Bishop (31:19):
It's in Dubai.
Michael Moran (31:20):
Have you been up the Burj Khalifa?
Julian Bishop (31:22):
No, I haven't.
But let's come on to that. In awhile. Let's start with. So what
is the skyscraper? Michael,what's the definition upon
Michael Moran (31:31):
the official Japanese door building?
Presumably, there must besimilar meeting about the number
of stories that geekseller SoI'm gonna say yes. Typically a
skyscraper. You think aroundwhat 100 stories, something like
that
Julian Bishop (31:43):
definition of a skyscraper is something which is
150 meters tall, or more than40. Floors tall. Okay. So that's
the definition it used, theyused to back in the 19th century
have a lower definition. Butnowadays, that's what's commonly
regarded to be a skyscraper. So150 meters tall, more than 40
floors? Have you heard of asuper tall? No go? Super tall
(32:09):
is, is a skyscraper, which isover 300 meters tall. And a mega
tall is one which is over 600meters tall.
Michael Moran (32:16):
And so just putting it so how many stories
would go in 600 meters.
Julian Bishop (32:22):
So with 150 is 14, then you can do the math.
Michael Moran (32:29):
In my I always think about that magical figure
of 100. Yeah. And of course,there were lots of smaller,
taller buildings. But the iconicskyscrapers are the ones that
you know, you think about so youthink about the Chrysler
Building, you think about theEmpire State Building, don't you
and again, in the golden era ofbuilding them, and this I think,
(32:50):
is fair, you can link withChicago, you do get a whole
series of very spectacularbuildings. And not just in terms
of tall, but iconic signaturebuildings.
Julian Bishop (33:02):
Yeah, I like the Chrysler Building, which was
once the the tallest buildingbuilding on the planet. So as I
said earlier on, you've got thiscompetition between New York and
Chicago for much of the latterpart of the 19th century, and up
until maybe around about the1980s. So the first skyscraper
(33:23):
actually was only 42 meterstall. That's when they had a
smaller definition. That was theHome Insurance building in
Chicago. So that was the firstskyscraper. In the beginning of
the 20th century, the tallestbuilding was the Chrysler
Building, which was 319 meterstall, then that moved to the
Empire State Building, which was381 meters tall, up, I can read
(33:48):
my writing, and that was thetallest building for 40 years.
Then you had the World TradeCenter before its demise in
2001, which was 470 meters tall.
And that was its mantle wastaken by the Sears Tower or net
what's now called the WillisTower in Chicago, which is 442
meters tall. That's the last onein the US. And since then, that
(34:09):
has now moved outside the US soso that moved to the Twin Towers
in Malaysia. Have you beenthere, Michael?
Michael Moran (34:19):
No, I haven't.
That's when I'm not done.
Julian Bishop (34:22):
So that was just slightly taller than the serious
building. Then it went to theTaipei 101 which was the first
skyscraper to be over half akilometer high. More recently,
then we have the Burj Khalifa.
And how tall is that? Michael?
Do you remember?
Michael Moran (34:39):
828 meters?
Julian Bishop (34:42):
That's right. You know when we were talking more a
number of episodes ago about theGrand Canyon. And do you
remember you talked about thissort of thing of being able to
see two sunsets? Yes, one at thebottom and one up and you know,
you can do the same thing at theBurj Khalifa.
Michael Moran (34:59):
No, I didn't know I would imagine it is such a
light.
Julian Bishop (35:03):
If you watch the sunset at ground, at the ground
level, and then you get intotheir elevator, and then you go
up at 828 meters. That journeyby the elevator takes one and a
half minutes. The sunset at thetop of the Burj Khalifa happens
two minutes later than the oneat the ground level. Gosh, so
(35:25):
you can, if you're able to catchthe elevator, see two sunsets
two minutes apart.
Michael Moran (35:32):
Gosh, we're not surprised because you can
actually see the curvature ofthe planet from the top. I mean,
and of course, if you rotated bywhat you see is it's highly
built up for a relatively shortdistance. And then you look at
the desert. So it is it's aspectacular view that I have,
but not for the faint hearted.
If you don't like looking down,
Julian Bishop (35:54):
the Burj Khalifa is shortly going to be overtaken
yeah called a skyscraper on theworld by the Jeddah towers, that
will be the first skyscraper,which will be over a kilometer
high.
Michael Moran (36:06):
Gosh, I suppose what we are seeing in certainly,
in the Emirates saw in theMiddle East is the same sort of
competition that was between NewYork and Chicago, because
various Emirates and oil richare always want to build the
tallest building,
Julian Bishop (36:26):
it's not going to last very long, because there
are plans to build one in Tokyo.
And that is going to beaccording to the plans 1.75
kilometers high. Gosh. So if youtake a little twitchy building,
like the Empire State Building,you're going to have something
which is four times higher thanthat.
Michael Moran (36:46):
And you wouldn't want to walk down those stairs
or more importantly, walk up thestairs with you.
Julian Bishop (36:52):
I did some research and I found that there
was this some skyscraper andBenidorm called intent in tempo,
which was 47 floors and thestory which was run by El Pais,
which is, you know, respectednewspaper there, said that they
built this 47 storey skyscraper,but they forgot to install
(37:13):
elevators. Sadly, the story isuntrue. Because I've also seen
this building and I've seenpictures of the elevators,
you're not going to want to do afire drill. Are you not allowed
to use your one to three quarterkilometers up in the sky? And
there's a fire drill and you'renot allowed to use any elevators
to get out of the building? Thatwould be quite a tough walk, I
(37:36):
suspect. Yes. Do you have afavorite skyscraper Michael
Michael Moran (37:41):
has had been inside the building, but not to
the top like you. I like theChrysler. So I do like I mean,
obviously, I spent somesignificant time in Dubai. So I
liked the Burj Khalifa I thinkit's a staggering building. I'm
going to say I'm notparticularly spectacular
building. But what I did likeabout it, they had a skylight.
(38:04):
So I went up the John HancockBuilding, yes thinks about 100
stories set is dwarfed by theWillis Tower. But I think at one
stage, it got close to being thetallest building when it was
built. It's got a
Julian Bishop (38:17):
very nice lounge up that I've also been up there
and had drinks and some nibblesup, there was a fantastic thing
to do.
Michael Moran (38:25):
And I have this photo of me sitting standing on
this ledge. I'm not bad withheights, but I'm not great with
them. So it's you know, so so itis pletely glass, you stand on
it. So you can see all the waydown, they take your picture,
and it looks like you'resuspended in the air. Let me
tell you, my feet was definitelygoing through pins and needles
when you're not on the ground.
So I certainly recommend it assoon as you go and see. But be
(38:50):
warned, when you step onto theledge. He knew he might suffer a
bit of vertigo.
Julian Bishop (38:58):
I really like the Chrysler Building. But I also
like the super tools whichsurrounds Central Park in New
York, which are built as almostall skyscrapers are built for
commercial purposes. People havegot offices, or they've got
businesses there or hotelsbecause the economics of
building a skyscraper. They'reso expensive to build that
(39:21):
they're the only ones who canafford the rent around Central
Park. They built a number ofsuper tools recently which are
very, very thin. The Steinwaytower is one of those that has a
124 ratio. So it's 24 up and youknow versus one measure on the
ground that and a number ofother buildings near it are
(39:42):
absolutely beautiful. Wherethey're situated is is nicknamed
billionaire's row. Michael and Ifound somewhere for you to live.
It's in Central Park tower. It's17 and a half 1000 square feet
penthouse. They're very nice.
it, and it's only going to costyou $250 million Bob as
apartments.
Michael Moran (40:06):
But you see now, if we compare and see, I don't
like the Rockefeller Center, andMapView building, I mean,
building. And if I was going tobe somebody who wanted a good
view of central bar, go to thetop floor of the Metropolitan
Museum, there's a very nicerestaurant there will carefully
place and you get a good view.
They say you're not as obviouslyas high up as you're describing.
(40:28):
But you're still high up in agood view of the park.
Julian Bishop (40:33):
Yeah. Last year, I was in New York, and I was
lounging around in the summer, Iwas lounging around in Central
Park. And I was looking up atthe sky and looking up at all
the skyscrapers around me. Iliked that view of the
skyscrapers to
Michael Moran (40:48):
the New World Trade Center building. Do you
like that? Yes. Yeah. I mean,I've done that. Again, a good
view and a good view. Theevening, I think, what was
really impressed by New York atnight is all the lights of all
the skyscrapers. Yeah, sothat's, that's as good as I
thought. The other thing tothink about if you're going
obviously it because this iswhat view you get, because you
(41:09):
got to you really need to gethired. So you go above the old
skyscrapers. So the view fromEmpire State, for example, is
not great, really, is it?
Because what's been built aroundit is dollar.
Julian Bishop (41:22):
How much you know about building regulations for
for skyscrapers,
Michael Moran (41:27):
my mastermind subject not
Julian Bishop (41:30):
basis concepts.
I, you know, somebody told methis once, I'm not sure I got
all the details, right. Butthere's this concept of that you
have to have light space aroundyour skyscraper. Many
skyscrapers are limited inspace, because you can't take
away everyone else's light. Soyou will often find in somewhere
like New York, there will be ahuge skyscraper next to a three
(41:52):
storey building, three storeybuilding has sold to that
skyscraper for a loss of money,their lights rights above three
storey building, that's one ofthe reasons why there are a lot
of very tall buildings aroundaround Central Park is that
(42:13):
they're, especially as thesebuildings, usually they're very
slender, they got a bigger base,it's kind of wasted space around
the outside, they said that theyfit in with building
regulations, and they're notaffecting the light of the other
skyscrapers around them.
Michael Moran (42:30):
given each of our planning regulations, and I'm
assuming certainly in the UK, itgets harder and harder to put up
buildings because of planningcommission being rejected. That
same in in the States. I mean,all this is that we used to get
signature buildings and and sizebeing really important.
Julian Bishop (42:51):
When there was this sort of competition between
New York and Chicago. That was avery defining point of
differentiation for both ofthose cities. So they were very
keen on, on having the mostbeautiful skyscrapers, the
tallest building, all that typeof thing. I think now that this
competition has gone elsewherein the world, people are much
(43:12):
more concerned about otherelements of business of
planning, there will be verydetailed regulations on what you
can and can't do. And they willbe on everything, the speed of
elevators on the number ofelevators, you have one of the
biggest challenges of building askyscraper is the number of
elevators that you have to havethat amount of your footprint
(43:33):
that those elevators take up.
Is, which is the fastestelevator in the world. Michael?
Michael Moran (43:40):
I didn't know I'm getting you love to enlighten me
on this one. Julian
Julian Bishop (43:44):
it's in the typo 1101 building, and it goes above
60 kilometers an hour.
Michael Moran (43:51):
And we want to do that. Well.
Julian Bishop (43:54):
By contrast, I would like to do that one, which
is with just the country in theworld with most skyscrapers then
Michael,
Michael Moran (44:00):
I will say Dubai know who
Julian Bishop (44:04):
China is. And 976 Well, probably 3000 By now
because they probably put 24 upsince yesterday. So they got
2976 Us 859. UK Do you want toguess the number in the your
low?
Michael Moran (44:21):
Low 150 33? Here?
Yeah. Your definition being forthat?
Julian Bishop (44:30):
250 meters tall.
Yeah. And we just the city inthe world with the largest
number of skyscrapers.
Michael Moran (44:38):
Well, we'll go back to Dubai. But Shanghai is
was made now.
Julian Bishop (44:42):
No, no. Shanghai, Shanghai is not even close. Now.
Hong Kong. Hong Kong has moreskyscrapers than the US. And
then the second is Shinzon.
Which, for Chinese sitting nextto Hong Kong.
Michael Moran (44:53):
I mean, typically you have them where two things.
You have enough a lot of land.
Yeah, and b You've got Goodrock. So there are two things.
Julian Bishop (45:03):
Very good for that. Yeah. Now, have you ever
lived in a skyscraper Michael?
No, I
Michael Moran (45:08):
have not.
Julian Bishop (45:09):
Well, someone else on this podcast has.
Michael Moran (45:12):
Have you Julia knows when you live in Hong
Kong? Yes. And what what floorwas your preferred floor? The
Union, you do both and doesn'tcount living. I am currently on
the third floor of my house. Soyou know, no, it doesn't count.
Julian Bishop (45:32):
Much, much cheaper for a third floor
apartment, but one of the top.
Michael Moran (45:36):
So we must before we finish the newest of
elevators, because I suppose thething about skyscrapers is you
and you rightly say, is evergetting the elevator but more
what happens when the elevatorfails. Because I bought it for
John Hancock building. And I wasdoing my research, I read in
2018, an express elevator failedwith people in it. And in fact,
(46:03):
they fell from the 95th floor tothe 11th floor. And the way it
was constructed, they had tobreak it into a brick wall to
get these people all havesurvived. Wait for it, because
it was controlled descent. So itwasn't a freefall at all. It
managed to come all the waydown. I presume we assume some
sort of manual intervention from94 to 11. stores. So that piece
(46:26):
around, I didn't but usuallywhen you get into the elevator,
and said a bit clunky they sortof move, and then they stop
periodically and think what'sgoing to happen next. Is that a
fear of yours, Julian? Or do youalways you've been happy in
elevator.
Julian Bishop (46:42):
I'm happy in an elevator. Although I was once
trapped in an elevator for threehours. Three hours, I only
managed to get out when theypriced open the doors and the
elevator was stuck mid floor,they couldn't get it unstuck.
And I had to sort of, you know,do that thing where the
elevators partway between onefloor on the other. And then you
had to sort of climb upwards inorder to get out of the
(47:04):
elevator.
Michael Moran (47:05):
Where was this was in the Bank of England. And
we I mean, how many stories inthe Bank of England building?
Club that many? Three, three orfour?
Julian Bishop (47:18):
Oh, no, no, no, this I believe it the seventh
floors. So again, it's been awhile since I've worked there,
but I think it was seven floors.
You could have walked that.
Well, I could but I was in theelevator and it stopped working.
So I couldn't walk it because Icouldn't get out the elevator.
Now who invented the elevatorMichael?
Michael Moran (47:36):
Oh, now we did this before, isn't it? It's an
it's something like Otis orSchindler's List. Exactly. oath
as Michael Yes. I knew they seem
Julian Bishop (47:46):
52. And it wasn't until he had invented the Elijah
raters had invented that. Theelevator that they could build
skyscrapers. Skyscrapers cameshortly after that.
Michael Moran (47:56):
More. So wasn't it the safety feature that he
built to stop the elevatorfalling that I've had remember
my history of them, they had gotthem before, but they had that
when they when the elevatorbroke or the cables failed when
but he actually he invented amechanism to stop it doing that.
So if it breaks, then it dropsdown one floor at that
(48:18):
apparently.
Julian Bishop (48:19):
Yeah, in the US you will see a lot of three
storey buildings but you'll seevery few four storey buildings.
And the reason for that is onceyou go over three storeys, you
have to install an elevator.
Yeah, we have rented homes whichhave an elevator in them even
though they're only two storeys.
Not No,
Michael Moran (48:37):
no, you're talking about van life. And now
an elevator for two storeybuilding. I can say we live in a
three storey building, and therewere no elevators here.
Julian Bishop (48:45):
Our dog at the time hated it. I can imagine I
think we are recommending topeople to go and see a
skyscraper aren't we
Michael Moran (48:55):
absolutely recommend skyscrapers. Julian.
That concludes episode 47. Let'sgive a trailer for episode 48.
And in fact, we're gettinghistoric climate Julian because
we're going to look at now aseries of those historical
events which have shaped modernAmerica. And we starting with
the assassination of JFK. Wehave to do much research on this
(49:17):
one, Julian or is it you'reespecially subject?
Julian Bishop (49:19):
I've watched a number of films on on the
subject. So I've got a goodstart, I think
Michael Moran (49:24):
and I've read death of a president right. We
which is quite long, but yeah,interesting. So I will need to
refresh my memory. And on top ofthat, we got we going into the
desktop we Julian can we'regoing to Monument Valley. That
concludes this episode forseven. Thank you for listening.
As always, we ask people to ifyou liked it, tell your friends
(49:47):
write reviews, ask us questions,highlight things you want us to
cover. And if that's it, Julianfor me, it's goodbye from you.
It's it's goodbye
Julian Bishop (49:57):
from him. Now I've got my crazy race
Unknown (50:31):
right
Welcome to Episode 47, of American Journey
with Michael Moran. And JulianBishop. Today is van life. And
you're going to start byexplaining by life to me,
because by the way, I talked tomy beloved about van life. I
don't explain how you drop outof ease. And then she says, Oh,
what's it like? You rememberwhen we went to the beach and
(00:38):
Venice Beach? And we saw thosetwo guys with I, she hadn't
realized the motorcycles, butthe little, the little sort of
trailers, she said, where theywere sleeping in, are you going
to be talking about them? And Isaid, No, Julian's, rule that
out, because they're to do withbikers, you need to qualify
those who cannot come under theheading of vanlife.
Julian Bishop (00:57):
Well, let me first just set the context for
why I want to talk about thissubject. And it really is part
of your education, because Ithink you are inclined to a view
that Americans are veryindustrious, they work very
hard, they're really big ontechnology. There are a lot of
Americans who will fit in thatcategory. But there's also lots
(01:19):
of minorities who live vastlydifferent lives, from that sort
of standard American. And wetalked about it when we talked
about Amish and I said, theAmish are very American, because
America is the only place wherethey really can live effectively
on this planet. Van life, Ithink, is fairly similar sizable
(01:41):
number of people who live aquite a different life, Van
life, as I see it is acombination of people who
basically live on the road. Andit consists of people who have
an RV, and we're not going todiscuss those this week. And
also includes people who, youknow, maybe have a purpose built
(02:03):
van, you know, like a VW van,something like that, or a
Mercedes. And then the finalgroup is people who have
purchased a vehicle and havedone it up so they can live in
it. And that's the group thatwe're going to talk about today.
So these are the permanenthomes, permanent or semi
(02:24):
permanent. Okay, so if I askedyou to guess how many people
permanently or semi permanentlylived in a farm, rather than a
house? What number would yougive me in the States?
Michael Moran (02:36):
I have no idea.
But I'm going to go, let's say,because it's a lot of people in
the states a million,
Julian Bishop (02:42):
it used to be a million before COVID. But
actually, one thing which hashappened, and I don't know
whether this is entirely becauseof COVID, they believe the
latest estimate is 3.1 million.
So 1% of Americans live partlyor fully in a fan will travel
the US and have their lifestyle,you know, based in a farm.
Michael Moran (03:07):
Okay, so my next question relates to so I'm gonna
put it delicately. Is this a setof people say, who are no longer
working or not working? Or arethey working with going to where
the jobs are? So to get thischaracterize sort of the typical
van life person, because in mymind, I'm thinking, or
(03:27):
presumably, they're of a certainage, and they don't have to work
be like you, Julian, so tospeak, you know?
Julian Bishop (03:33):
So obviously, you within that 3.1 million, which
is around about a percent of theUS population, you've got a very
broad church indeed. So you dohave a small number of people
who are retired, they typicallyare going to have an RV. So
we're not really going to focuson them in this discussion. That
(03:53):
will be the group which probablypeople can understand easiest,
because some of these IVs arehuge. They are like sort of
houses on wheels. There is a byfar the majority of the rest are
working. They find a way ofgenerating some income as they
move around. So maybe they'redigital nomads, and they can do
(04:14):
their job. And all they need isan internet connection. Have you
seen the film Nomad lands?
Michael? No, I haven't had oneand Oscar was a couple of years
ago, and that portrayed a groupof people who move around the
country and they get work inwhichever part of the country
they're working in. And in Nomadland, they concentrate on, you
(04:35):
know, people who are working forAmazon during their peak season,
then there are people who haveenough money, you know, they can
cover their expenses. Any ideahow much you can live on if
you're a couple? You've alreadygot your van.
Michael Moran (04:52):
I've no idea. I mean, you you used to do some
research, tell me what thenumber looks like. I truly would
have no idea What the averagegolfer living? I mean, and by
the way, coming back to thiswork in So are you saying these
people will be equivalent to aRomani or gypsy we have in the
UK who sort of move around forvarious reasons and doing jobs
(05:14):
too. And go those, are we on theright path here, or
Julian Bishop (05:17):
just think about your sort of youngish
professional, who has maybe somemarketing skills, something like
that, who can pick up variousbits of work from via, for a
variety of different clients.
And they do that while they'reon the road to stop somewhere,
and they'll go into Starbucks orsomething similar for two or
(05:37):
three hours, they'll do theirwork, and then they'll do the
stuff which they enjoy. So thinkabout that type of person, that
sort of Generation Z, maybe,maybe a young millennial, and
they'll pick up enough work to,you know, cover all their
expenses and give themselves,you know, a decent life.
Michael Moran (05:57):
And in the podcast, and I do know, one
person in the UK, who lives in acanal boat, and he has you
described is it as long as youget into the internet, it is
selling sort of a system, theactual getting word does not
causing problems. When you say,well, we're weird, what's the
address? If they want to applyfor credit? You know, where have
(06:17):
you lived in the last fiveyears? Sort of questions that
people ask, how does that workif they're just on the road all
the time?
Julian Bishop (06:25):
And I think that is an issue for many people who,
who are living a fan life isthat they they feel this
discrimination against them?
Because of those types ofquestions. So they feel that
it's slightly more difficult forthem to get a job because it is
more difficult for them toanswer that question. In terms
of having a physical address,there are a number of companies
that you can get a physicaladdress for. And you can send
(06:48):
the mail, many credit cardcompanies will accept those
addresses. So that's fairlystraightforward for $100 a year
something like that, they willdeal with all of that address
issue or, or maybe they've gota, you know, sister or parents,
that person has an address. Andthey can use that address for
(07:10):
their mail and for their, youknow, for their details of where
they are formally living. Butobviously, if you're looking for
a, you know, job, let's say in abar, and then somebody says,
What, What's your address, theremay be some prejudice against
people who are living in a van,because maybe the, the employer
wants a little bit morecertainty and wants somebody
(07:31):
with a local address. Andthey'll prefer someone with a
local address that rather thansomeone who can have a bad night
and then just decide they'removing on the next day,
Michael Moran (07:41):
where do we park these vans? I mean, so they park
them
Julian Bishop (07:45):
in a variety of different places. Do you
remember the car park that wewent to when we went to the dog
beach in Venice? Yes. I wasthere the other day after our
last podcast. And you know, wesaid we're going to do van life.
And I thought I would just do arecord of that car park and work
out how many are definitely vanlife fans. And I counted seven.
(08:08):
So those are people who hadparked in a, you know, a free
car park, you know, there's veryclear signs that you're not
allowed to park there overnight.
But I bet if I went back thereat 10 o'clock, there would be
another number of ants in thatcar park. And they would park
somewhere like that. And that'squite a reasonable place for
them to park. Because if youremember, there was some you
(08:29):
know, it was near a beach. Andthere were some showers that
people could use some showersand there were toilets. So you
know that that would be areasonably good place to park I
understand that. NationalForests are very good places to
park, because you can park forfree pretty much all the
Walmarts allow you to park forone night in their car park.
(08:49):
Although many people don't likethat type of car park because
there are a lot of lights in awarm in a Walmart car park. But
Walmart have always beenfriendly towards this. This
group of people that areminority will pay for a
campsite, you have to rememberthat this lifestyle is very
allied to the go with lesslifestyle. Have you heard of a
(09:12):
go with less lifestyle? No,
Michael Moran (09:15):
I haven't. And this ties back to the question.
How much do you need to live onwhich you have not given the
answer for yet?
Julian Bishop (09:21):
Yeah, so So you want to give me a guess about
you know how much people canlive on?
Michael Moran (09:30):
$10,000 go? Yeah, it's about
Julian Bishop (09:33):
$10,000 per person. Obviously, you have
people who will live on a lotmore than that. There's kind of
a movement, which is I don'twant to be spending all my time
working in order to get moneyfor these things, which I don't
value all that much like a housein the suburbs. What I really
want to do is I want to do thethings that I want to do in my
(09:55):
life, instead of earning a lotof money so I can spend a lot of
money What I'm going to do isI'm going to go with less, I'm
either going to go with less nowjust get enough money so that I
can live on and then enjoy allthe free time that I have. Or
I'm going to earn lots of moneynow, in order that I can retire,
you know, when I'm 35, and I'llhave enough money to retire on
(10:19):
at that age. So there's thatkind of movements, and many
people are attracted to and inparticular, I think one of the
reasons for the popularity offan life is that generation Z,
or as you call them, in the UKgeneration said, many of them
have a different attitudetowards the way that you should
live life. They saw theirparents wiped out in the Great
(10:42):
Depression of the naughties. Andthey say, I don't really want to
have that lifestyle, I want todo something different. So they
either earn a little and live onlittle, or they earn a lot in
order that they can retire at anearly age, and then live on a
little at a later point.
Michael Moran (11:00):
Okay, and not necessarily the retirees, but
let me just turn because Isuspect and we do have this
problem in the UK, that thesepeople are not necessarily that
welcome. In fact, you alreadyevidence that by saying Venice
Beach, you're not allowed tostay overnight. In fact, I'm
pretty certain Venice Beachwon't encourage them to stay in
for any length of time. And I'mpainting this picture while you
(11:22):
and if you want to do it anyway.
So they're using a minute is butthey're not paying for Mina
does, as I suspect they'reworking on the black economy,
you know, and certainly here,and we have influx of I would
say Romanians or Irishtravelers, and they're very,
they they come they exit thecarpark so leave a mess, and the
local residents association,open arms and the police spend
(11:45):
the summer chasing them off, andthen they go back to Ireland.
And sure enough, the followingsummer, they come again, I'm
gonna sense that sort of,although you're talking about a
particular lifestyle, it hasconsequences. And consequently,
some of those consequences forlocal residents are not well
received.
Julian Bishop (12:05):
Obviously, I can't really tell you about what
other people think. Andobviously in the UK, there's a
lot of prejudice against gypsiesagainst the Romani community, I
don't feel that there's the samelevel of prejudice here. I think
that most of these people wholive a fan life, they leave very
little in the way of footprints,you know, so if you go into, for
(12:27):
example, the toilets and theshower area in the beaches near
Venice, those are clean andtidy. There's no, they're not
really doing anythingdestructive. The local
authorities, they have a rule,which says you were You can't
park there. But I don't know towhat extent that that is
policed, I suspect that youcould probably get away with it
(12:49):
for months and months. And thenbecause somebody's actually
going to come around at nine or10 o'clock, when you're still
there and say, Hold on, you needto move on. And I suspect that
most authorities don't do that.
And they wouldn't do it unlessthere was an issue. You're not
allowed to do it. But thepolicing will be very light,
there's nobody really sufferinga massive detriment here. Okay.
Michael Moran (13:10):
But you also say that they, they tend not to, or
they use very little, the usualparts where you pay a fee, and
you get electricity and usefacilities, they truly are
living off the grid.
Julian Bishop (13:24):
It's about 20% of people who will use at any time
a paid caravan site or orcamping site, they might go to
something like a national park,you can in your van, you can
stay in a national park verycheaply for you know, I think
it's up to two weeks, you know,they might do something like
that, but it's incredibly cheap.
Yeah, the National Park isencouraging you to come and live
(13:47):
in nature. If I can just correctyou on one other thing, you made
an assumption that most of thesepeople will be living on the
black economy. And obviously, Idon't know what percentage
would. But I think many of thesepeople would actually go through
the payroll of companies, andthey would, you know, file tax
returns, just as anyone elsewould.
Michael Moran (14:11):
Why do you believe that? I think
Julian Bishop (14:13):
because of the nature of the companies that
they're going to be doing workfor. If they are digital nomads,
and they're working marketingthings for various different
customers, most of theircustomers are going to do it.
They don't have mechanisms fordoing things off the books. So
if that's the type of if theyhave a knowledge type base job,
(14:33):
that is the type of okay, theywill be paying taxes because the
company will do it all throughofficial channel. And
Michael Moran (14:42):
that was I was thinking more because of the
issue about addresses and thenature of the employment. They
would like to be freelancersfree contractors. Yes, I
Julian Bishop (14:51):
would say most of them will be freelancers so in
the States, you know, in COVIDIt's definitely been blurred.
Yeah, because so much working athome. The company never checks.
On your home, they'd have achecks, check whether you're
there, as long as you are doingthe work for your company, they
don't actually know whether youare at your home and Acacia
Avenue, or whether you're livingin a van somewhere in, in
(15:13):
Florida or, or Arizona, as
Michael Moran (15:17):
you referenced in most of the people, you think
what I call white collarknowledge workers were my
perceptual would be a spheregroup, these people will be blue
collar workers, you know, sortof casually behind I mean,
especially, they're going to
Julian Bishop (15:29):
be mixed areas.
And once the ones I have met,are very much white collar
workers. However, in the filmNomad lands, the ones they
portrayed were much more sort ofblue collar workers, although
it's not always easy to tell, tobe honest.
Michael Moran (15:47):
The ones that you've met, so tell me a little
bit about their stories, then
Julian Bishop (15:51):
I'll talk to anyone that I'm very interested
and how other people see theworld and live their lives. So
and in return, they're alwaysvery friendly to me that, you
know, they tend to be laid backpeople, they tend to be people
who are interesting themselves,they have thoughts a little bit
(16:12):
about what they want from life.
And they are, you know, somewhataggressively pursuing that. So
they, they make interestingconversations, most of the
people I've met are couples,although I understand that a
substantial number of peoplewho, you know, who do this
individually, but I think mostof the ones that all the ones
I've met have really beencouples, they usually have got
(16:34):
plenty of time to talk and youknow, you can usually have a
pretty good conversation andfind out their life story. You
know, many of them are muchyounger than me, you know, I
think the average age is early40s. But many of the ones I've
talked to, I think have been intheir 30s. Quite a few of the
ones I've met have been verymuch into crypto. So one of
their mechanisms historicallyanyway, for earning money has
(16:58):
been through playing the cryptomarkets as that has disappeared
as crypto has massively reducedin value. I'm sure most of these
people have found othermechanisms of making money,
particularly in this market,which is a very full employment
market, I would imagine many ofthese people really don't have a
problem in getting jobs. It'sjust they want a job which is in
(17:18):
tune with their lifestyle. Theydon't want to be working every
hour known to man, they want tobe working minimally so they can
enjoy life maximally.
Michael Moran (17:29):
And presumably they like life on the road, I
don't want to put down apermanent base there. Most of
the jobs are short term, theywill move on, I'm assuming if
that's what they want you ifthey don't want to be tied down
to sort of bricks and mortar oron location.
Julian Bishop (17:45):
I think it's hard work moving all the time,
Michael, okay. There's a group Ibelong to, which is kind of a
nomad group, there are still afew people who travel and move
places every week or so. Butmost people, they like to have a
base for a month or two, andthen move on to a base. I'm
guessing from that experiencethat some people do want to
(18:09):
spend a little bit longer. Soyou may find, you know, the
winter in a variety differentplaces in in Florida, and then
they'll go somewhere else lateron in the year.
Michael Moran (18:19):
So he's quite seasonal moves then.
Julian Bishop (18:21):
I think many people like to have a certain
weather. Yeah, which suits theirlifestyle. I've met people who
they spend the winter in a skiresort and they spend the summer
in a river doing rafting. And soyou know, so they move around
with their interests. So butmost people, I guess, are going
(18:43):
to want reasonably decentweather Most of the time. It's
very outdoorsy life,
Michael Moran (18:49):
especially if you live in the valley,
Julian Bishop (18:51):
especially if you live in a van and they tend to
create their own yard, you know,which they can enjoy being
outside in the deckchairs orwhatever. Yeah, so it's not just
their van they're living andthey're you they're, they're
living in usually the spaceoutside their van as well.
Michael Moran (19:08):
And what else can you tell me about van life?
Well, have you thought
Julian Bishop (19:12):
about converting a vehicle into a van a few
thoughts about what that mightentail?
Michael Moran (19:19):
Under no circumstances would I get a hold
of a van? Because we presume youhave to have something with a
fairly substantial good ifyou're going to live in it,
you're going to want to sleep init.
Julian Bishop (19:30):
Well, there are people who buy purpose built
vans, those are right at theYeah, they're not the people
going with less. They're thepeople who are buying that, that
$100,000 Mercedes van orwhatever, or they're getting an
old VW van. So there are thosepeople but for most people, what
they're doing is they're takinga vehicle and they're converting
it into something which islivable, and there are broadly
(19:53):
three or four types of vehiclethat people convert. So number
one is the school bus orSchoolies, or they're called,
they get an old school bus. Andthey, you know, they may spend a
year or so converting thatschool bus. So it becomes kind
of like a caravan.
Michael Moran (20:11):
And we're starting straightaway Julian,
that's not van life. That's buslife. We you changing the
parameters here
Julian Bishop (20:18):
I am, but I do remember one of daughter number
two's friends, their next doorneighbor, they had bought a bus,
they'd spent the best part of ayear converting it plenty in a
kitchen, rudimentary kitchen,all that type of stuff. And I
remember daughter, Number Two'sfriend being very disapproving
of the fact that this familywe're also going to take their
(20:38):
children on this school bus arestill going to be a school bus,
but only for their children. Andthey're going to travel around
the US, showing the children abit of life but also having a
sizable enough living quartersfor you know, for a family of
four or whatever. I
Michael Moran (20:57):
mean, that's basically an alternative
lifestyle, isn't it? So, I mean,
Julian Bishop (21:00):
this whole thing is an alternative, right? Yeah.
So the second type of thingwhich has converted this a
minivan Do you recall Lorna'sminivan people that is so
classic vehicle that you canpick up fairly quickly, and
people will convert that into avan, which can be travel
Oberlin.
Michael Moran (21:21):
Now, I don't recall Orleans vehicle, and I'm
thinking mini van, as in themini car, and there were vans,
and it can't possibly leaveanybody who believes it so soon.
Oh,
Julian Bishop (21:31):
so there'll be like a Dodge Caravan or a
Chrysler Town and Countrysomething. And we bought that
vehicle so that we could travelaround in the US, we weren't
living in it, because we wouldhave hotels or apartments. But
we wanted a sizable vehicle,it's got seven seats, got a very
large trunk area, or boot area,Scott's sliding doors at the
(21:55):
side. So many people would takea van like that, they would take
out the seats, not at the front,and they would, you know, put in
mattresses and storage and maybesome rudimentary cooking
equipment, that type of thing,they would fit out something
like that, you know, you couldbuy maybe, you know, a high
mileage vehicle like that, maybefor four or 5000. And do it up
(22:18):
for a couple of 1000 that willget you on the road. So that
would be you know, one option.
Another option is to get avehicle like that, but it's a
cargo van doesn't have thewindows at the back gives you a
little bit more privacy atnight, that type of thing. That
as I understand is the is thesort of vehicle of choice. And
then finally, some people usesome pickup trucks. We certainly
(22:40):
met some people who were doingthe van life with a pickup
truck, and then they you know,they had a mattress in the bed
at the back. And then they wouldhave an awning which they would
put over that mattress, the mostrustic and
Michael Moran (22:55):
you're not selling this idea to me, Julian
at all, ya know, sleeping in amattress in the back of a van.
You know? Obviously, if you hadto do that, yeah, but you
wouldn't want to do that for toolong. I don't think
Julian Bishop (23:08):
the average length of this lifestyle is
about two and a half years.
Yeah. People don't do itforever. They do it. And then
they find something else thatthey would like to do
differently. After that, is notthat they say it's a terrible
idea. But it's it's a hardlifestyle. It's not easy,
because for example, where doyou go to the toilet? Where do
(23:28):
you have a shower? Yeah, wheredo you cook your food? You know,
all of those things. You've gotto find a solution for now. Any
idea where what type ofsolutions they find for this,
Michael?
Michael Moran (23:40):
Oh, in terms of toilet cooking? I'm assuming
that cooking and showers? Yes.
So I'm assuming they're usingpublic facilities. Most of the
time, there may be some verywell suited fossil bathing lakes
or whatever but I'm, I'massuming things like assuming
the UK would be sports centers,you know, where you can go in
and so as I'm thinking thecooking is more tricky, isn't
(24:03):
it? So we're
Julian Bishop (24:06):
so the majority for the showering the majority
of people in Van life have a gymmembership. Yeah, yeah. And what
they do is they get a gymmembership for something which
has gyms throughout the US ifthat's where there are in the
US, and they will go to that gymjust as you or I might go to the
gym and they'll use theirfacilities afterwards. You know,
(24:26):
obviously, if you're by a beachlots most beaches have showers,
they'll use those showers. Yeah,I mean, I always find America
quite civilized in terms ofrestrooms or toilets. You know,
in the UK or in Europe,sometimes darn difficult to find
a toilet that you can go to inthe States, pretty much any
sizable shop, any shoppingcenter, they're all going to
(24:47):
have facilities that you can goto and then cooking most people
get you know, they get one ofthose gas stoves and they will
just you know, do cooking on youknow, in one pot and they'll do
that knocking on that gas stove.
And then of course, in theStates, there are lots and lots
of barbecue facilities prettymuch where you know, it's very
(25:08):
normal in the States, for thereto be a barbecue facility that
people can go to and do theircooking. So I guess they they
make use of things like that?
Michael Moran (25:19):
Yes. Okay, well, I'm not sure I'm sold on sold on
it. And again, I'm assumingalso, that as you're traveling,
if you find somewhere which isreally nice and has got the
amenities, the attraction tostay where you are, as opposed
to move in, will be great,because you've just described,
when you go around, you've gotto find somewhere, not only it's
(25:40):
nice to go, and you can park,we've got access to amenities,
Julian Bishop (25:45):
you're viewing this from the perspective of a
69 year old. Yeah. And I thinkyou've got to cast your mind
back to a time when you were inyour early 30s. Just remember
that, you know, there's somecomforts that you haven't
necessarily got used to buythem. These are people who are
(26:06):
enjoying the outside you know,so we will see them on the
beach, they will be enjoyingnature and they'll be enjoying
the company of the of the oftheir of their partner, many of
whom have a dog about half ofthe people have a dog, the vans
they also have many of them willhave solar panels, you can
either get kind of an otherbatteries, which you've got your
(26:30):
hookup to your alternator, sothat they're being recharged.
But I think many of the van lifepeople prefer getting their
power from from solar panels,which is attached to their van.
So I can't sell you thislifestyle. Is that what we're
saying? Like,
Michael Moran (26:45):
in my youth, I spent time camping, I spent time
in caravans. And for a shortperiod, yes, exciting a novel,
but I never was attracted tothat would be my permanent
lifestyle.
Julian Bishop (26:58):
No, but the fact that the average time is only
two and a half years yeah,probably means that people
decide they want to do somethingelse after a few years. I mean,
I guess some people stop veryquickly, and then others will go
a little bit longer. But youknow, you don't hear often
people have been doing it for 20years, you know, maybe they find
(27:19):
somewhere they really like wherethe cost of living is low, and
they decide they're going tosettle down there, whatever,
Michael Moran (27:24):
I suppose I appreciate this is my
perspective. And it's clearlyclearly not the perspective of
most people, but a sense ofadopting that lifestyle, because
it is one where you can liverelatively cheaply, and have
this fear that is this one stepto living on the streets. There
are several those people they'renot by choice, but because
(27:47):
that's the income making thelifestyle they can only afford
Julian Bishop (27:51):
undoubtedly some of the people living van life
are people who were there. Notnecessarily through choice, but
through circumstance. Yeah, andcertainly no mad land, the film
shows that don't believe thatthe majority of these people are
there through, you know, becausethey're forced to most people
are there because this is thelifestyle they want.
Michael Moran (28:12):
Okay, but what you are saying it's a
significant part of thepopulation, you know, it's
Julian Bishop (28:18):
yeah, 1% and it's really ballooned. You know,
since COVID, it's reallyballooned. And I'm guessing that
it might fall back a little bit.
But I'm also thinking that thisis quite an appealing lifestyle
for Generation Z, who don't wantto be completely wedded to their
job.
Michael Moran (28:36):
Okay, that's my life.
Julian Bishop (28:39):
Now, there's one other application to this, which
is very niche for peopletraveling to the US. And I used
to be, I think, quite popular,it's a little bit more difficult
to do now. But it's people whowould come to the US for three,
maybe six months, and they wouldpurchase a van like this. And
(28:59):
they will kitted out minimallyand they would explore the US
used to be something that peoplewould do when they were late
teens or early 20s. And that isstill you know, people still do
that what's difficult. Now, manystates do not allow you to buy a
car unless you have an addressto give them within their state.
(29:22):
That is something that peoplehave done for decades. Yeah. And
maybe there are some of ourlisteners who would be
interested in that. And if youare getting tired, I'd be very
happy to help you work out howto do that. And in return, you
can come on the podcast and tellus all about your experience
(29:50):
So Michael, we moved toskyscrapers, snakes tan so why
did you pick this subject?
Michael Moran (29:56):
I pick this subject because I think if you
have I'm British, and you'recoming to America. And you ask
them someone to say, you know,five things that you'd expect to
see in America going backslightly, thinking sort of my
generation in the 50s and 60s,then you would say skyscrapers,
your, your, your vision of NewYork, which I specula time was
(30:20):
like no other place on the worldwith all these huge buildings.
Julian Bishop (30:24):
Well, one other place on the world, which are
the place do you say that be?
Famously, there was the warbetween Chicago and New York?
Yeah, the skyscrapers. That'sthe reason that US is known for
skyscrapers because afterfriendly competition between the
two cities of who can build thetallest, the most beautiful?
Michael Moran (30:44):
Well, I'm gonna say, actually, I think I'm from
the UK visitor perspective,clearly, Chicago is not
necessarily as well known, andprobably not aware of the
competition between the twocities, build them, whereas New
York, you think of Manhattan,you think of skyscrapers, don't
you? And, and we're going totalk about it for a long time,
the Empire State Building wasthe skyscraper. Now, of course,
(31:08):
I'm meeting the next generation,things have changed because
actually, we started looking atacross the world, you know, I
mean, where is the the tallestbuilding in the world? Julian?
Julian Bishop (31:19):
It's in Dubai.
Michael Moran (31:20):
Have you been up the Burj Khalifa?
Julian Bishop (31:22):
No, I haven't.
But let's come on to that. In awhile. Let's start with. So what
is the skyscraper? Michael,what's the definition upon
Michael Moran (31:31):
the official Japanese door building?
Presumably, there must besimilar meeting about the number
of stories that geekseller SoI'm gonna say yes. Typically a
skyscraper. You think aroundwhat 100 stories, something like
that
Julian Bishop (31:43):
definition of a skyscraper is something which is
150 meters tall, or more than40. Floors tall. Okay. So that's
the definition it used, theyused to back in the 19th century
have a lower definition. Butnowadays, that's what's commonly
regarded to be a skyscraper. So150 meters tall, more than 40
floors? Have you heard of asuper tall? No go? Super tall
(32:09):
is, is a skyscraper, which isover 300 meters tall. And a mega
tall is one which is over 600meters tall.
Michael Moran (32:16):
And so just putting it so how many stories
would go in 600 meters.
Julian Bishop (32:22):
So with 150 is 14, then you can do the math.
Michael Moran (32:29):
In my I always think about that magical figure
of 100. Yeah. And of course,there were lots of smaller,
taller buildings. But the iconicskyscrapers are the ones that
you know, you think about so youthink about the Chrysler
Building, you think about theEmpire State Building, don't you
and again, in the golden era ofbuilding them, and this I think,
(32:50):
is fair, you can link withChicago, you do get a whole
series of very spectacularbuildings. And not just in terms
of tall, but iconic signaturebuildings.
Julian Bishop (33:02):
Yeah, I like the Chrysler Building, which was
once the the tallest buildingbuilding on the planet. So as I
said earlier on, you've got thiscompetition between New York and
Chicago for much of the latterpart of the 19th century, and up
until maybe around about the1980s. So the first skyscraper
(33:23):
actually was only 42 meterstall. That's when they had a
smaller definition. That was theHome Insurance building in
Chicago. So that was the firstskyscraper. In the beginning of
the 20th century, the tallestbuilding was the Chrysler
Building, which was 319 meterstall, then that moved to the
Empire State Building, which was381 meters tall, up, I can read
(33:48):
my writing, and that was thetallest building for 40 years.
Then you had the World TradeCenter before its demise in
2001, which was 470 meters tall.
And that was its mantle wastaken by the Sears Tower or net
what's now called the WillisTower in Chicago, which is 442
meters tall. That's the last onein the US. And since then, that
(34:09):
has now moved outside the US soso that moved to the Twin Towers
in Malaysia. Have you beenthere, Michael?
Michael Moran (34:19):
No, I haven't.
That's when I'm not done.
Julian Bishop (34:22):
So that was just slightly taller than the serious
building. Then it went to theTaipei 101 which was the first
skyscraper to be over half akilometer high. More recently,
then we have the Burj Khalifa.
And how tall is that? Michael?
Do you remember?
Michael Moran (34:39):
828 meters?
Julian Bishop (34:42):
That's right. You know when we were talking more a
number of episodes ago about theGrand Canyon. And do you
remember you talked about thissort of thing of being able to
see two sunsets? Yes, one at thebottom and one up and you know,
you can do the same thing at theBurj Khalifa.
Michael Moran (34:59):
No, I didn't know I would imagine it is such a
light.
Julian Bishop (35:03):
If you watch the sunset at ground, at the ground
level, and then you get intotheir elevator, and then you go
up at 828 meters. That journeyby the elevator takes one and a
half minutes. The sunset at thetop of the Burj Khalifa happens
two minutes later than the oneat the ground level. Gosh, so
(35:25):
you can, if you're able to catchthe elevator, see two sunsets
two minutes apart.
Michael Moran (35:32):
Gosh, we're not surprised because you can
actually see the curvature ofthe planet from the top. I mean,
and of course, if you rotated bywhat you see is it's highly
built up for a relatively shortdistance. And then you look at
the desert. So it is it's aspectacular view that I have,
but not for the faint hearted.
If you don't like looking down,
Julian Bishop (35:54):
the Burj Khalifa is shortly going to be overtaken
yeah called a skyscraper on theworld by the Jeddah towers, that
will be the first skyscraper,which will be over a kilometer
high.
Michael Moran (36:06):
Gosh, I suppose what we are seeing in certainly,
in the Emirates saw in theMiddle East is the same sort of
competition that was between NewYork and Chicago, because
various Emirates and oil richare always want to build the
tallest building,
Julian Bishop (36:26):
it's not going to last very long, because there
are plans to build one in Tokyo.
And that is going to beaccording to the plans 1.75
kilometers high. Gosh. So if youtake a little twitchy building,
like the Empire State Building,you're going to have something
which is four times higher thanthat.
Michael Moran (36:46):
And you wouldn't want to walk down those stairs
or more importantly, walk up thestairs with you.
Julian Bishop (36:52):
I did some research and I found that there
was this some skyscraper andBenidorm called intent in tempo,
which was 47 floors and thestory which was run by El Pais,
which is, you know, respectednewspaper there, said that they
built this 47 storey skyscraper,but they forgot to install
(37:13):
elevators. Sadly, the story isuntrue. Because I've also seen
this building and I've seenpictures of the elevators,
you're not going to want to do afire drill. Are you not allowed
to use your one to three quarterkilometers up in the sky? And
there's a fire drill and you'renot allowed to use any elevators
to get out of the building? Thatwould be quite a tough walk, I
(37:36):
suspect. Yes. Do you have afavorite skyscraper Michael
Michael Moran (37:41):
has had been inside the building, but not to
the top like you. I like theChrysler. So I do like I mean,
obviously, I spent somesignificant time in Dubai. So I
liked the Burj Khalifa I thinkit's a staggering building. I'm
going to say I'm notparticularly spectacular
building. But what I did likeabout it, they had a skylight.
(38:04):
So I went up the John HancockBuilding, yes thinks about 100
stories set is dwarfed by theWillis Tower. But I think at one
stage, it got close to being thetallest building when it was
built. It's got a
Julian Bishop (38:17):
very nice lounge up that I've also been up there
and had drinks and some nibblesup, there was a fantastic thing
to do.
Michael Moran (38:25):
And I have this photo of me sitting standing on
this ledge. I'm not bad withheights, but I'm not great with
them. So it's you know, so so itis pletely glass, you stand on
it. So you can see all the waydown, they take your picture,
and it looks like you'resuspended in the air. Let me
tell you, my feet was definitelygoing through pins and needles
when you're not on the ground.
So I certainly recommend it assoon as you go and see. But be
(38:50):
warned, when you step onto theledge. He knew he might suffer a
bit of vertigo.
Julian Bishop (38:58):
I really like the Chrysler Building. But I also
like the super tools whichsurrounds Central Park in New
York, which are built as almostall skyscrapers are built for
commercial purposes. People havegot offices, or they've got
businesses there or hotelsbecause the economics of
building a skyscraper. They'reso expensive to build that
(39:21):
they're the only ones who canafford the rent around Central
Park. They built a number ofsuper tools recently which are
very, very thin. The Steinwaytower is one of those that has a
124 ratio. So it's 24 up and youknow versus one measure on the
ground that and a number ofother buildings near it are
(39:42):
absolutely beautiful. Wherethey're situated is is nicknamed
billionaire's row. Michael and Ifound somewhere for you to live.
It's in Central Park tower. It's17 and a half 1000 square feet
penthouse. They're very nice.
it, and it's only going to costyou $250 million Bob as
apartments.
Michael Moran (40:06):
But you see now, if we compare and see, I don't
like the Rockefeller Center, andMapView building, I mean,
building. And if I was going tobe somebody who wanted a good
view of central bar, go to thetop floor of the Metropolitan
Museum, there's a very nicerestaurant there will carefully
place and you get a good view.
They say you're not as obviouslyas high up as you're describing.
(40:28):
But you're still high up in agood view of the park.
Julian Bishop (40:33):
Yeah. Last year, I was in New York, and I was
lounging around in the summer, Iwas lounging around in Central
Park. And I was looking up atthe sky and looking up at all
the skyscrapers around me. Iliked that view of the
skyscrapers to
Michael Moran (40:48):
the New World Trade Center building. Do you
like that? Yes. Yeah. I mean,I've done that. Again, a good
view and a good view. Theevening, I think, what was
really impressed by New York atnight is all the lights of all
the skyscrapers. Yeah, sothat's, that's as good as I
thought. The other thing tothink about if you're going
obviously it because this iswhat view you get, because you
(41:09):
got to you really need to gethired. So you go above the old
skyscrapers. So the view fromEmpire State, for example, is
not great, really, is it?
Because what's been built aroundit is dollar.
Julian Bishop (41:22):
How much you know about building regulations for
for skyscrapers,
Michael Moran (41:27):
my mastermind subject not
Julian Bishop (41:30):
basis concepts.
I, you know, somebody told methis once, I'm not sure I got
all the details, right. Butthere's this concept of that you
have to have light space aroundyour skyscraper. Many
skyscrapers are limited inspace, because you can't take
away everyone else's light. Soyou will often find in somewhere
like New York, there will be ahuge skyscraper next to a three
(41:52):
storey building, three storeybuilding has sold to that
skyscraper for a loss of money,their lights rights above three
storey building, that's one ofthe reasons why there are a lot
of very tall buildings aroundaround Central Park is that
(42:13):
they're, especially as thesebuildings, usually they're very
slender, they got a bigger base,it's kind of wasted space around
the outside, they said that theyfit in with building
regulations, and they're notaffecting the light of the other
skyscrapers around them.
Michael Moran (42:30):
given each of our planning regulations, and I'm
assuming certainly in the UK, itgets harder and harder to put up
buildings because of planningcommission being rejected. That
same in in the States. I mean,all this is that we used to get
signature buildings and and sizebeing really important.
Julian Bishop (42:51):
When there was this sort of competition between
New York and Chicago. That was avery defining point of
differentiation for both ofthose cities. So they were very
keen on, on having the mostbeautiful skyscrapers, the
tallest building, all that typeof thing. I think now that this
competition has gone elsewherein the world, people are much
(43:12):
more concerned about otherelements of business of
planning, there will be verydetailed regulations on what you
can and can't do. And they willbe on everything, the speed of
elevators on the number ofelevators, you have one of the
biggest challenges of building askyscraper is the number of
elevators that you have to havethat amount of your footprint
(43:33):
that those elevators take up.
Is, which is the fastestelevator in the world. Michael?
Michael Moran (43:40):
I didn't know I'm getting you love to enlighten me
on this one. Julian
Julian Bishop (43:44):
it's in the typo 1101 building, and it goes above
60 kilometers an hour.
Michael Moran (43:51):
And we want to do that. Well.
Julian Bishop (43:54):
By contrast, I would like to do that one, which
is with just the country in theworld with most skyscrapers then
Michael,
Michael Moran (44:00):
I will say Dubai know who
Julian Bishop (44:04):
China is. And 976 Well, probably 3000 By now
because they probably put 24 upsince yesterday. So they got
2976 Us 859. UK Do you want toguess the number in the your
low?
Michael Moran (44:21):
Low 150 33? Here?
Yeah. Your definition being forthat?
Julian Bishop (44:30):
250 meters tall.
Yeah. And we just the city inthe world with the largest
number of skyscrapers.
Michael Moran (44:38):
Well, we'll go back to Dubai. But Shanghai is
was made now.
Julian Bishop (44:42):
No, no. Shanghai, Shanghai is not even close. Now.
Hong Kong. Hong Kong has moreskyscrapers than the US. And
then the second is Shinzon.
Which, for Chinese sitting nextto Hong Kong.
Michael Moran (44:53):
I mean, typically you have them where two things.
You have enough a lot of land.
Yeah, and b You've got Goodrock. So there are two things.
Julian Bishop (45:03):
Very good for that. Yeah. Now, have you ever
lived in a skyscraper Michael?
No, I
Michael Moran (45:08):
have not.
Julian Bishop (45:09):
Well, someone else on this podcast has.
Michael Moran (45:12):
Have you Julia knows when you live in Hong
Kong? Yes. And what what floorwas your preferred floor? The
Union, you do both and doesn'tcount living. I am currently on
the third floor of my house. Soyou know, no, it doesn't count.
Julian Bishop (45:32):
Much, much cheaper for a third floor
apartment, but one of the top.
Michael Moran (45:36):
So we must before we finish the newest of
elevators, because I suppose thething about skyscrapers is you
and you rightly say, is evergetting the elevator but more
what happens when the elevatorfails. Because I bought it for
John Hancock building. And I wasdoing my research, I read in
2018, an express elevator failedwith people in it. And in fact,
(46:03):
they fell from the 95th floor tothe 11th floor. And the way it
was constructed, they had tobreak it into a brick wall to
get these people all havesurvived. Wait for it, because
it was controlled descent. So itwasn't a freefall at all. It
managed to come all the waydown. I presume we assume some
sort of manual intervention from94 to 11. stores. So that piece
(46:26):
around, I didn't but usuallywhen you get into the elevator,
and said a bit clunky they sortof move, and then they stop
periodically and think what'sgoing to happen next. Is that a
fear of yours, Julian? Or do youalways you've been happy in
elevator.
Julian Bishop (46:42):
I'm happy in an elevator. Although I was once
trapped in an elevator for threehours. Three hours, I only
managed to get out when theypriced open the doors and the
elevator was stuck mid floor,they couldn't get it unstuck.
And I had to sort of, you know,do that thing where the
elevators partway between onefloor on the other. And then you
had to sort of climb upwards inorder to get out of the
(47:04):
elevator.
Michael Moran (47:05):
Where was this was in the Bank of England. And
we I mean, how many stories inthe Bank of England building?
Club that many? Three, three orfour?
Julian Bishop (47:18):
Oh, no, no, no, this I believe it the seventh
floors. So again, it's been awhile since I've worked there,
but I think it was seven floors.
You could have walked that.
Well, I could but I was in theelevator and it stopped working.
So I couldn't walk it because Icouldn't get out the elevator.
Now who invented the elevatorMichael?
Michael Moran (47:36):
Oh, now we did this before, isn't it? It's an
it's something like Otis orSchindler's List. Exactly. oath
as Michael Yes. I knew they seem
Julian Bishop (47:46):
52. And it wasn't until he had invented the Elijah
raters had invented that. Theelevator that they could build
skyscrapers. Skyscrapers cameshortly after that.
Michael Moran (47:56):
More. So wasn't it the safety feature that he
built to stop the elevatorfalling that I've had remember
my history of them, they had gotthem before, but they had that
when they when the elevatorbroke or the cables failed when
but he actually he invented amechanism to stop it doing that.
So if it breaks, then it dropsdown one floor at that
(48:18):
apparently.
Julian Bishop (48:19):
Yeah, in the US you will see a lot of three
storey buildings but you'll seevery few four storey buildings.
And the reason for that is onceyou go over three storeys, you
have to install an elevator.
Yeah, we have rented homes whichhave an elevator in them even
though they're only two storeys.
Not No,
Michael Moran (48:37):
no, you're talking about van life. And now
an elevator for two storeybuilding. I can say we live in a
three storey building, and therewere no elevators here.
Julian Bishop (48:45):
Our dog at the time hated it. I can imagine I
think we are recommending topeople to go and see a
skyscraper aren't we
Michael Moran (48:55):
absolutely recommend skyscrapers. Julian.
That concludes episode 47. Let'sgive a trailer for episode 48.
And in fact, we're gettinghistoric climate Julian because
we're going to look at now aseries of those historical
events which have shaped modernAmerica. And we starting with
the assassination of JFK. Wehave to do much research on this
(49:17):
one, Julian or is it you'reespecially subject?
Julian Bishop (49:19):
I've watched a number of films on on the
subject. So I've got a goodstart, I think
Michael Moran (49:24):
and I've read death of a president right. We
which is quite long, but yeah,interesting. So I will need to
refresh my memory. And on top ofthat, we got we going into the
desktop we Julian can we'regoing to Monument Valley. That
concludes this episode forseven. Thank you for listening.
As always, we ask people to ifyou liked it, tell your friends
(49:47):
write reviews, ask us questions,highlight things you want us to
cover. And if that's it, Julianfor me, it's goodbye from you.
It's it's goodbye
Julian Bishop (49:57):
from him. Now I've got my crazy race
Unknown (50:31):
right
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