June 16, 2023 • 44 mins
In Episode 48, Michael and Julian talk about
1. The Assassination of JFK. Julian is typically pragmatic, while Michael thinks it unlikely that Oswald could have hit the moving target twice from that distance. We talk conspiracy theories.
2. Monument Valley. This is one of Julian's favorite places in the USA.
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Available here to buy as a paperback, ebook, or audiobook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Moran (00:16):
Welcome to Episode 48 of an American
journey with me Michael Moranand Julian Bishop. Julian, I
believe it. You're just backfrom Miami. How was that?
Julian Bishop (00:26):
Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah, we were staying
with friends. Our friends have aboat. So we were exploring the
beautiful Biscayne Bay, which isthe Bay between Miami mainland
and Miami Beach and exploringthe Miami River as well. Just a
fantastic experience pull up ona bay Island. You swim on the on
(00:48):
the beach, you know joy, thebackdrop of all of the Miami
skyscrapers, you go up thebillionaire boats are just a
really fantastic experience.
Michael Moran (00:59):
And I have to ask, Was there any fishing,
knowing the great fisherman youare
Julian Bishop (01:04):
no fishing, we didn't do any fishing. There are
so many skyscrapers in Miami, Idon't know what the number is.
And, you know, we've enjoyedtrying to spot anyone actually,
in the skyscrapers. There mustbe an awful lot of empty
properties in Miami, people fromoverseas who bought a piece of
real estate and just using it asan investment. So we enjoyed
(01:26):
that we enjoyed, you know, beingin the water, a few drinks, that
type of thing and go shopping atpeople's boats, there was some
multi 100 million dollar boatsand in that day, so you have
Michael Moran (01:38):
a glimpse of how the other half live, Julian,
that's what you're telling me.
Julian Bishop (01:42):
We were very privileged, you know, being in
our position, but you quicklyrealize that you're nowhere near
as privileged as others. So youknow, some of these boats have,
you know, 40 bedrooms on them.
Oh, gosh.
Michael Moran (01:54):
So more you're on a boat.
Julian Bishop (01:57):
Yeah, yeah. It's one of you know, one of the
Walmart's RSS boats. And we alsodid some yoga in the park. And
we met many of their friendsthat had a barbecue. We met many
of their friends, many of whomare most of whom were British
expats from a long time ago. Soyeah, we had a we had a great
time.
Michael Moran (02:16):
Excellent. So today, we're going to look at a
bit of a change in direction forthe podcast. We're going to go a
bit of historical data. Julian,we're going to look at the
assassination of JFK. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (02:29):
Yeah, I think the idea is that we're going to deal
with a few us historicalincidents and just talk about
and you suggested assassinationof JFK, because apparently, you
know something about it. Do youremember what you were doing on
the day that JFK was shot?
Michael Moran (02:44):
Taking the words out of my mouth to them? Because
I do well remember what I wasdoing on Friday, the 22nd of
November 1963. Okay, so
Julian Bishop (02:56):
you have an alibi?
Michael Moran (02:57):
I do. Indeed, it can be corroborated by my
mother, I'm not sure be a bit ofa chance to bring it in on the
witness stand, given that shedied a number of years ago, but
I double check my memory becauseand the great news about the
internet, you can go on and seewhat was on the television.
Because I believe I was watchingis Harry remember how we worth
(03:19):
he was on and it must have beenI've heard of him by the
timings, a timing, I think ifyou want to back watched eight,
and they interrupted theprogram, to now see the death of
the president. Now, given thetime difference, and the
assassination took place aroundnoon. Interestingly, we're
saying it that three and a halfhours for that news to come into
the UK.
Julian Bishop (03:40):
It took a while for it to hit the networks as
well in the US.
Michael Moran (03:44):
So what were you doing, Julian?
Julian Bishop (03:45):
I wasn't born Michael. I wasn't conceived
before my time. So I have a castiron alibi.
Michael Moran (03:52):
Where do we want to start with it? Because I
suppose one of my things isthere is I mean, now was it 50
odd years almost, you know, sortof that there is a fascination
with it, isn't that and we'vehad we did an episode on
conspiracy theories. And Isuspect this is probably the
number one conspiracy theorythat we it was not Lee Oswald,
who did it, you know. Andindeed, in a sense, that was
(04:15):
vindicated, wasn't it?
Subsequent to the WarrenCommission, the United States
House Select Committee onAssassinations did postulate
that there was possibly aconspiracy? Didn't say Who was
it? They did didn't say who itwasn't.
Julian Bishop (04:30):
But I think the findings were that it was
probably a conspiracy relatingto mobsters. That was their that
was their findings. You know,it's just a group of congressmen
wasn't it wasn't experts oranything just a group of
politicians and
Michael Moran (04:45):
and did you see the Kevin Costner film which
frankly, I find most confusingwhen? Well, it was the Oliver
Stone. Yeah. Kevin's got to playthe the lead attorney, didn't
they? I didn't see the film yet.
I don't think he made made thecase that mean the end of the
film. I certainly wasn'tconvinced that there was a case
to answer. Would you agree?
Julian Bishop (05:06):
I liked the film.
I think it was beautifully shot.
You know, at the time that thatstyle of filmmaking was in its
infancy, and I thought it was agreat film to watch. But I
believe that it was Lee HarveyOswald, who shot the president.
That's my belief.
Michael Moran (05:23):
Having said that, he was a pretty good shot there.
Mostly. It was a bloody goodshot. Well, he
Julian Bishop (05:28):
was a sharp Yeah, he joined the Marines in what
was it? 1956. And he trained asa sharpshooter there,
Michael Moran (05:36):
but two out of three on a moving target. Yeah.
would be. I would just say, youknow, saying
Julian Bishop (05:45):
you're saying that somebody was in the car and
shot him from a non moving, youknow, a much closer range. I
mean, somebody shot him thatnight. Yeah. Sorry, would have
been a moving target for anyone.
Michael Moran (05:58):
I mean, I suppose there was a great deal of sort
of speculation as to wherethey're looking for that some
that there was a second shooteron the on the Hill on the
hillock. I know grassy knoll.
But the evidence of that is, issketchy, but I'm just saying to
get two shots off on a movingtarget for what was it about 170
(06:19):
meters?
Julian Bishop (06:23):
Yep, that's what he's trained for. But it's a
good shot.
Michael Moran (06:26):
It's a good shot.
Julian Bishop (06:28):
That's a good shot. Yeah, it's a quote two
good shots.
Michael Moran (06:31):
And one will say, I mean, again, just checking
back, you know, you say he wastrained, but you'd have to be
shooting on a fairly regularbasis, I suspect, to have that
level of accuracy. I don't knowwhether he was or not.
Julian Bishop (06:42):
When he bought the rifle in March of 1963, that
I had a zoom on it of fourtimes, you know, normal vision,
he had a quite a few months topractice with that gun. You
know, he was trained how to doit. And as I say, somebody shot
it, you know, there weren'treally a lot of places nearby
(07:04):
that people would have got amuch better, you know, where
you're going to be undisturbed.
There weren't that many otherplaces. So, you know, there was
somebody who was a good shooter,and if it wasn't him, then, you
know, had to be someone else.
Michael Moran (07:18):
And they hadn't appreciated. They didn't do
research. And by the way, I didreally read that's long term
care. Manchester's book on thedeath of a president, you know,
which causes the events in somedetail. But again, I hadn't
picked up that actually. Oswaldthen killed another person on
point for arrest didn't date.
Yeah, he
Julian Bishop (07:35):
didn't select should we do at the time? Yeah,
go. Timeline was that Lee HarveyOswald. He dropped out of high
school in 1956. And he joinedthe Marines and he trained as a
sharp suit shooter. Then in1959, he defected to the Soviet
Union, and lived in Minsk, whichis, which is now part of Bella
(07:57):
Russia.
Michael Moran (07:58):
And did you have any connection? So that
defection, Julian? Did he haveconnections that took him to
Minsk?
Julian Bishop (08:06):
No, no, no, I think there were ideologic.
Yeah. Then in 1962, who returnedto Texas, but then he had a
wife,
Michael Moran (08:15):
and was repatriate. He wasn't a so he
got it. He was sort of early forwhatever reason, funded to go
back into the states.
Julian Bishop (08:24):
And then in 1963, which is the year of the
assassination, as I said, earlyon, he bought the rifle in March
for $20. He then looked to tryto go back to the Soviet Union.
I think he was he had a job andhe was fired from that job. You
know, so life wasn'tparticularly going well with
(08:45):
him. And, you know, ran thatsort of March period, if there
was a trial run with some anticommunist general, and bullet
was fired at this general and hemissed and his wife told the FBI
at that time, she thought thatthis attempted assassination
might have been her husband. Soyou know, so that happened in
(09:06):
April before the before JFKassassination. And September, he
looked to try and escape the US,the US, but he got a passport.
He traveled to Mexico and hetried to go to Cuba and the USS
Sr. and he was denied visas inboth countries. He then returned
(09:29):
to the US and he got a job withthe Book Depository store in
October. So that's you know, asI see it, some of the key facts
relating to Lee Harvey Oswaldand before the the
assassination, was thereanything else you picked out
which you thought was germane?
Michael Moran (09:45):
No, no, I mean, I said Yeah, the thing I I
wondered what made him go to theRussia in the first place, and
then he came back. I don't thinkany evidence that he was
anywhere Russian spy was
Julian Bishop (09:58):
the major groups as this is a mobster. killing.
And there's another group whichsays so, particularly at the
time look horrible his time inthe Soviet Union. You know,
maybe this is something youremember, this is a year after
the bear picks, the Soviet Unionwas the evil empire. So I think
there were a number of peoplewho said, Oh, yeah, this is a,
you know, this is a spy sent by,by the Soviet Union,
Michael Moran (10:20):
the evidence again, is thin on the ground say
he actually was a spy. Yeah,
Julian Bishop (10:24):
the timeline, at least that I set out, provides a
motive of sorts. It provides acapability, if indeed, he was
involved in the attemptedassassination of the US General,
whose name I now forget someform of planning.
Michael Moran (10:43):
So So what do you say in the military, this, I'll
accept capability? I is asharpshooter.
Julian Bishop (10:49):
What is motive?
Is he you know, he was procommunist. He showed that twice
won by going there in the firstplace. And secondly, by, you
know, trying to go there again,and then being denied the
thesis, obviously bought a gun,you know, that there's a whole
range of A and I'm not sayingit's the strongest motive. It's
motive enough, I think, leads toa mind which isn't necessarily
(11:10):
thinking strokey
Michael Moran (11:14):
if we were looking at alternative theories
and the monster one, so what'sthe rationale behind the
monster? Well, he was killed bya mobster.
Julian Bishop (11:23):
I think the argument goes that JFK and his
brother Robert, cracking down onmobsters, so his brother was,
was attorney general. They werebasically going after the main
mobster. So that is the motivefrom the mobster side that they
were actually trying to kill thepresident so that they would
really release the pressure ontheir own businesses.
Michael Moran (11:46):
But again, no connection been Oswald and
mobsters?
Julian Bishop (11:49):
No, I think people have suggested there
might be I don't know, I haven'tfollowed that one to the nth
degree. Obviously, there arepeople who strongly believe that
is the case. And then on the dayitself. So I think it happened
at 1230. And there were threeshots fired. So the first shot,
(12:09):
I think, hit the back of JFKthroat, there was a little bit
of a gap. And then there weretwo further shots. One of these,
at least, hit the president'shead. And that resulted in the
famous quote from, from JackieKennedy. I have his brains in my
hand. And I think that shot alsoricocheted also hit the governor
(12:33):
of Texas did, who was who wassitting beside him, and then at
1233, Lee Harvey Oswald left theBook Depository. There was a
policeman there who let him outafter someone else identified
him as you know, somebody whoworked at the Book Depository
route about 1240. The BookDepository was locked down by by
(12:57):
their security services. But bythis time, Lee Harvey Oswald was
was on a bus, that bus gotcaught in traffic, he left the
bus, he got into a cab, and hegot home by one o'clock. Once he
got home, he left home. Fiveminutes later, at 115. He shot
and killed a police officer whostopped him because he matched
(13:20):
the description of of a personthey were looking for time at
140 He entered a theater, amovie theater, and somebody saw
him and they called the policeand they notified the police 150
that police arrived. He resistedarrest, he tried to shoot
another officer. And then whenhe was detained, he allegedly
(13:43):
told them well, it's all overnow. And then he was taken into
into police custody at 705. Hewas charged with the murder of
the police officer. And by 1126in the evening, he was charged
with the murder of JFK. Sothat's broadly the timeframe.
You think that there is anotherexplanation other than it being
(14:04):
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Michael Moran (14:05):
No, no, no, I suppose. I'm more fascinated
with the fact that the wayconspiracy theorists and new the
issue of being able to have tohit two shots at the middle of
moving target. Notwithstandingthe fact you say is a sharp suit
is is an injury. It was a bigdistance hit people with
Julian Bishop (14:26):
if it weren't him. Someone else had to do it.
Yes. Because there wasn't acloser bit. There wasn't
something where there wasn't amoving target. So it had to be
someone
Michael Moran (14:35):
and of course, because it was so many years
ago, what we don't have is thatsort of what you would today is
lots and lots of camera anglesof the incident. In fact,
Julian Bishop (14:46):
the we have one that way there's a prude of the
supreme Yeah, so
Michael Moran (14:51):
I spent my view on that is it although it
clearly shows the shots hittingthe car. He doesn't doesn't give
you any real clue. to where theshots were coming from.
Julian Bishop (15:01):
Yeah, well, I guess the promo was focusing on,
rather.
Michael Moran (15:08):
So So in a sense the day, I've pretty certain
when they're off social media,we would have had all sorts of
camera angles. Yeah. And then,and then you come to the sort of
the strange actually, we're very
Julian Bishop (15:21):
lucky to have that one filming. Because it was
only one guy in the crowd withwhat was then a high tech camera
and he was filming in colorSuper Eight that we we have even
though some that film, but then
Michael Moran (15:34):
you have the sort of strange things like the the
umbrella on the hill. Yeah, sortof. I mean, people say, Well,
you know, was a nice sunny day,why would somebody have an
umbrella up? Well, there musthave been signaling to a third
body. So you get these sorts of,you know,
Julian Bishop (15:47):
oh, they were just putting the umbrella up to
keep in the shade. Because itwas a sunny day.
Michael Moran (15:52):
Exactly. But there's so so that's, I suppose
how, you know, I mean, they hadthe villain and they clearly
identified him and he wascharged clearly was wasn't just
the fact. He tried to shoot thepresident. You know, he resisted
arrest, he killed somebody. ButI don't think there were ever
quite satisfied with the storythat it was Lee, maybe they
(16:12):
wanted something more from thestory.
Julian Bishop (16:14):
I mean, I think the main reason there are a lot
of conspiracy stories, andparticularly around being the
mob was that two days later,when he was being transported
from the police station? I don'tknow where he was being
transported to, presumably thecourthouse. He was shot live on
television, by Jack Ruby, whowas mafia linked nightclub
(16:39):
owner? Yeah. So I think that waspart of it. The official line is
that Jack Ruby shot him, becausehe was so angry that somebody
had shot the president. Butothers have said, well, maybe
he's trying to eliminate thewitness. Yeah. I don't know
which story you believe that Ithink had that not happened. I
don't know that there would havebeen quite as many conspiracy
(17:00):
theories. Yeah, I mean, thereare a number of US presidents
who have been shot andassassinated. So you know, JFK
was the fifth one. So I guess,people will see a pattern, you
know, and say, well, not all ofthese can be accidents, let's,
you know, the deep state or, youknow, whatever, which is, you
know, trying to control thesethings.
Michael Moran (17:19):
Let's go slightly forward, then. Because
obviously, the next question youhave to ask is, so, how do you
live? Wilson? Would history havetaken a different turn than the
way it did when Lyndon Johnsonthen took over?
Julian Bishop (17:32):
Well, it certainly would have done
because they were, you know,they had quite different policy.
And they were very differentpeople, which is, of course, why
Lyndon Johnson was selected asrunning mate. But I don't know
what what is your hypothesis?
Well,
Michael Moran (17:45):
I mean, so for example, the issue of as a
Vietnam, would that have been avery different track. I'm not
sure. But, you know, so,
Julian Bishop (17:54):
because he died relatively young into his
presidency, and he was a verytelegenic person. History has
treated him recently, currently,there's no real certainty that
had he stayed that he would haveended the Vietnam War earlier.
And indeed, you know, if youthink about it, the, you know,
only the oil, you'd had the Bayof Pigs. So, you know, to
(18:18):
actually give up on a, you know,a conflict, which was
essentially about stopping thepromotion of communism, when
you'd been threatened the yearbefore. Seems probably unlikely
that that would have happened asquickly as it did. But I don't
know you have an alternativeview? I mean, I'm I'm guessing
(18:40):
that most politicians, what'sthat? What's that phrase? They
say that every political careerEnsign economy, that that would
have happened to him had he notbeen assassinated? I
Michael Moran (18:50):
agree with you.
And this is, as Sal said, wewere talking about dying young,
the history has been very kindon it isn't, you know, sort of
the it sort of the hope andexpectation, which clearly
wasn't fulfilled, as has beenvery positive mean, you know, we
only got a little bit furtherdown the road, because then, you
know, remember, he famously beatNixon didn't in the election.
And what sorts of was that way?
(19:13):
Eight years later, we got Nixonand Nixon in power, and the way
the way that it ended up withWatergate, so you
Julian Bishop (19:21):
make some did stop? Yeah, it was under his
presidency that that stopped.
So, you know, what would havehappened? Would he have won
reelection in 1964? Four? Yeah,maybe maybe he would have done
to me the really interestingquestion is, what would have
happened had Bobby Kennedy notbeen assassinated a few years
later. Because to me, I thinkBobby Kennedy was kind of a shoo
(19:42):
in for President even though hewas a writing candidate. I think
he would have definitely beenelected. So you would have had
Bobby Kennedy, you know, who wasa lot more liberal, I think,
than his brother in power at atime, you know, instead of next,
that would Have would have beeninteresting. But again, you
don't get to play that game. Areyou aware of Occam's razor?
(20:04):
Might? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, Itake the view that usually the
simplest explanation is likelyto be more correct. Okay. And in
this case, somebody who issomething going on in his head,
he assassinated Kennedy alone,but I'm sure there are listeners
who are more informed than uswho would take a different view.
Michael Moran (20:28):
And I'm interested in sort of legacy in
the sense that Americans seemtoday. I mean, is it something
that they fascinated by thedelay speak favorably of him,
you know, sort of, in, in yourconversations with people? Is it
something that's well, it's nowancient history, you know,
Julian Bishop (20:46):
somebody who was a kind of an adult when he was
president. So you're talkingabout somebody who's well into
their 70s or 80s, obviously,fewer of them around and they
wouldn't necessarily been tointerest in politics at that
time as well. So, you know, ifyou are liberally inclined, you
will be inclined towards thefact that he was, you know, a
(21:10):
liberal person during a time ofgreat conservatism in US
politics, it's, you will befavorably inclined to him if you
are, if you're more to the rightof that you're more inclined to,
you know, to link him to, toliberal politicians that you
don't like. So I think a lot ofthe views of him are are based
on on one side is politics. Ithink most Americans hate the
(21:34):
idea that that people willassassinate a democratically
elected politician. And theylament the fact that so many
tragedies have happened to theKennedy family. Yeah. Recently,
we had one of the Kennedyfamily, nominate himself for the
next Democratic president. Somaybe that, you know, that
family legacy has isn't quiteover yet.
Michael Moran (21:56):
And just sort of just falling badly. So
presumably, this is taught in inschools? So I'm assuming your
daughters who are exposed to it.
I mean, I I wonder if so thehistory what what is seen as his
legacy in the sense of, andbecause they came out not long
after McCarthyism, did he so youknow, sort of you talked about
(22:16):
him being a liberal thinker, youknow, sort of did that
significantly change theAmericans destiny, or was just
merely a blip in the road beforethey stared down to further
right inside? Again,
Julian Bishop (22:31):
my own personal view, was one of the things that
you tried to do when you'reelecting a president, because
the president essentially is incharge of foreign policy, and
the security of the country.
Therefore, what you're lookingfor one of the things you're
looking for, when you're lookingat potential presidents as
you're looking at theircharacter, and you're looking
what they're going to be like ina crisis. And as I look at his
(22:53):
legacy, and the fact that he hadenough fortitude, even though
there were others telling him,he should be more conciliatory,
basically, to threaten theSoviet Union, with all out war,
you know, if they continuedtheir plans in Cuba, and to me,
(23:13):
I know, there can be loads ofpeople who disagree with this.
But to me, that was a keydecision, and it was a correct
decision. And I'm pleased thathe had the fortitude of
character to do that. Maybe someother presidents wouldn't
necessarily have that. Iappreciate that, you know, that
at least is, you know, is a,it's a very strong legacy for
(23:38):
the EU. And it
Michael Moran (23:40):
is interesting, because you talk about the sort
of the the legacy of thestandoff with good jobs, and
eventually one of them backingdown. Yet, not long before that
we'd have the actual debacle,the invasion in the Bay of Pigs.
Later, there was of clearly asignificant mistake was made by
(24:00):
Kennedy and his entourage, youknow, and indeed, why. And so
the, the advice given to him atthat point, most people's was
view was poor advice, but helistened to it. On the other
hand, the standoff over thenuclear missiles, again, he
said, had similar sorts ofadvice, but this time he did
ignore it. And as you say,history views him much more
(24:20):
favorably on the fact that hedid stand up and Khrushchev back
down.
Julian Bishop (24:26):
The other legacy that he had was with his
brother, he had started tochange the nature of the laws
and challenge federallychallenge some of the state's
laws on civil rights. And Ithink that is the other you
know, he wasn't around longenough to see all of that
(24:47):
through, but he's certainly aman his brother in particular,
certainly did a lot in thatspace, which I think is you
know, it's a it's a great legacyas well. Yeah.
Michael Moran (24:58):
You started failing me on the phone. At that
it was Lee Harvey Oswald killKennedy. And there were no other
factors involved in that.
Julian Bishop (25:08):
Oh, no, I think there are other theories. I just
think that the other theoriesare even more absurd. Yeah.
Somebody admits to it. Andthere's some deep state
involvement, and then somebody'sdocumenting it. I think at this
point, we're left with what wehave already. And that would
probably indicate on the balanceof probabilities that it was Lee
(25:29):
Harvey. But
Michael Moran (25:30):
the real thing I'm always fascinated is, is why
it is such a significant event,you know, and event and as
always with history. So whatwould have happened? Had he
survived, you know, that type ofthing. And, you know, as a
result of one, this sort of lonegunman did he significantly
changed the American historygoing forward? Question, but we
(25:53):
don't know.
Julian Bishop (25:54):
Well, I think I think the answer must have been
Yes. I mean, the US president isimportant figure. It was x. It's
now why, of course, they'regoing to be major things which
change, not least because, youknow, Kennedy and Johnson were
pretty good. Yeah. So yeah. Soof course, it would have
significantly changed.
Michael Moran (26:12):
Johnson never got reelected today.
Julian Bishop (26:15):
Yeah, he did.
Yeah. So what Johnson didn't do.
So there was a kind of anunderstanding that you could
only serve for two terms. Andthen FDR, he served for more
than two terms. And so theychanged the Constitution at that
point, to limit it to twoelected terms. And we Johnson
(26:37):
obviously had half a term wherehe wasn't elected as president,
but he was elected as vicepresident. Then he won the next
election. And then he declinedto stand in 1968. Even though
there are some people who weresaying to him, Look, you can
stand again in 68, because youhaven't been elected. Yes. You
(26:59):
are elected once and then hadhalf of a term. Lyndon Johnson
won the 64 election. Okay.
Michael Moran (27:05):
But he was a very different character to Kennedy
Wilson.
Julian Bishop (27:10):
When he was a Texan. Yeah. Kennedy was from a
incredible family. Yeah, so butyeah, I mean, I guess the
similar question could be madeof Lincoln's assassination, what
would have happened had Lincolnnot being assassinated, and to a
lesser extent, Garfield orMcKinley,
Michael Moran (27:30):
if you take Reagan who obviously survived
Reagan, had he died, what whatsignificance had been because,
again, if you take the foreignpolicy of Reagan, particularly
the I will say, appeasement ofthe West, and Gorbachev and how
that took no one could reallyargue that a different person,
(27:52):
they will take in a verydifferent line on that.
Julian Bishop (27:54):
Yes, I think that's right. And especially as
that precedent then would havebeen George George Bush, the
elder I mean, arguably, Reaganwas even more important in the
ongoing battle with the, youknow, with with communism, but
yes, Hinckley wasn't as good ashot and he didn't really have
(28:15):
much of a moving target
Michael Moran (28:16):
and he was close to him wasn't like he said he
wasn't a sharpshooter.
So we move on to happier things,which is vacationing in Monument
(28:40):
Valley. Yes. And a bit of adisadvantage because I can say I
have driven through it. I've notstayed at it. And I do have a
question. The four statesboundary monument. Yeah. Would
you say that in Monument Valley?
Julian Bishop (28:53):
I definitely wouldn't. Because the four
corners as it's called I thinkis two maybe even three hours
away. So I would say itdefinitely isn't there is a for
non American listeners that theUS states on the west most of
the time don't follow naturalboundaries like rivers are
(29:14):
straight lines. And so you havethis this area where there are
four straight lines meeting eachother. So theoretically at least
you can have a nominal leg infour states simultaneously. So
and people I've never been therebefore corners but dad I think
(29:34):
it's about three hours away. Itspositioning is very remote as
you know, there's not a lotwhich is nearby I think it's was
about a six hour drive fromVegas and five hours from
Phoenix and five hours fromAlbuquerque eight hours from
Denver. You know, it's notreally near anything. It's right
in the middle of Navajoterritory.
Michael Moran (29:57):
Never hotels you must be large because Four
Corners is also in Navajoterritory, is them
Julian Bishop (30:03):
of the lower 48.
They have the largestreservation size. Yeah, so what
was your experience, then youwould sort of drive them from A
to B. And
Michael Moran (30:11):
I think we will Phoenix and I'm trying to think
whether we're driving all theway back to Colorado, or we were
driving to Vegas, deliberatelywent through it. It's amazing
scenery, you know, butobviously, it's not like when we
did Grand Canyon, I did it fromthere, you doing it from the
road, and you see all theseMises and buttes around you and,
you know, it's like a moonlandscape, isn't it? You know,
(30:35):
but there's nothing else thereother than these fantastic sort
of, you know, visitors of, ofmountains, which, over the
process of time are crumblingand eroding, and leaving these
huge stacks of, I wouldn't sayred stones now that would,
Julian Bishop (30:50):
yeah, that's right. It's red, red sands.
Yeah, just use drive on theroads or to to go
Michael Moran (30:55):
on the road. And again, from memory, we worked, I
think, where we did staysomewhere. And there was I
noticed a Navajo Reservation,because obviously, it was no
alcohol. And we, we, wecertainly drove flight from like
the middle of the day and, andobviously into the evening, as
(31:17):
the sun goes down, it's veryimpressive. But as you then got
to the, the place, we werestaying at very late, and there
was literally nothing that wasjust eat,
Julian Bishop (31:25):
drink, or your must have been very grumpy. I
was I was,
Michael Moran (31:29):
except for the next morning, we had breakfast
in place. But I don't think thethe whole hotel which was owned
by the reservation, actually didany food, which we hadn't
appreciated the time we'vebooked into it, let's
Julian Bishop (31:42):
deal with accommodation first, shall we
because if we're actually tryingto provide useful advice for
people, accommodation is thenumber one thing you have to
focus on, there's one place thatyou should seek to stay if
you're going to Monument Valley,and that is a hotel called the
view hotels or that and that isvery difficult to book and it is
expensive. It has the name theview big it has the view to die
(32:05):
for giving any advice tosomebody, I would say try do
whatever you can to book thathotel. If you can't book it,
then there are a couple of otheroptions in Monument Valley. So
that's where we stayed, which isGoldings launch, which is, you
know, the very old hotelcomplex, which all the movie
(32:26):
stars used to stay at when theywere filming their movies. And
they've got a great museum withall the pictures of these movie
stars. And they got you know,they got a cinema there a little
cinema room and they've got allthe films which are made among
Monument Valley, so you canwatch those. And then the third
option is the is the TP village,the you know, which is
essentially camping. So tentedcamping. So those are your three
(32:49):
options. If you can't get any ofthose, then you're not going to
be able to stay in MonumentValley. And you'll have to go
somewhere else like Mexican hatin Utah or or, or one of the
several other places in Arizona.
So that is your number onething, if you're thinking of
going to Monument Valley, getyour accommodation sorted first,
and you can't remember where youstand,
Michael Moran (33:11):
it will tell. But I suspect it must have been by
the time we got there, or theedge of it or so having gone
through it
Julian Bishop (33:20):
in terms of things to do. So nowadays, the
two sort of main things, you caneither take an organized Jeep
Tour, where someone takes you ina jeep, and they drive you
around, kind of the all of thecountryside. Or you can do what
we did, which was to do a selftour. And I think we paid
there's a scenic drive you cando which only takes you to part
(33:41):
of it. I think it's about 20miles, maybe a bit less. And you
can do this scenic drive, andyou can stop off at various
points and admire the views. AndI think that is $20. You know,
so it's very sort of manageable.
And those tours are areterrific. And you didn't do
either of those. Is that right?
Michael Moran (34:00):
We would I made the point of driving through it.
As you will. I'm pretty sayingwe're driving back to Colorado,
the diet.
Julian Bishop (34:08):
Yeah, well, that would make sense that would make
sense that you did that. And sowe did the self tour and then we
stopped at various points. Andyou know, there are various bits
I think I seem to remember thatwe there was this horse that you
could get on and then the horsewould walk very slowly to the
end of some sort of greatprominent point. And you could
(34:31):
take photos of your of yourloved one on the horse
replicating John Wayne's whichwhichever moving stagecoach or
the searchers or something. Sowe did that. I think a number of
us went on that on that horsewith my with my family and also
my my mother. I think we do havepictures of various of us on the
(34:53):
horse there also used to sayit's Navajo territory. I
strongly believe that if you'regoing through parts of America
which is, which is NativeAmerican, which is Indian, that
you should stop and try andunderstand something about that
history, their lifestyle. Andthere are some entrepreneurial
Native Americans who will, youknow, who will show you what the
(35:16):
inside of their living quarterslook like. And I believe Lorna
had her hair braided. And, youknow, we saw some people making
baskets and so forth. I thinkelsewhere in Navajo territory,
we went to have a look at someof their dinosaur bones that
they'd found that. So, you know,there's a lot of opportunity for
that type of thing. And, youknow, I think that is, that's a
(35:38):
really good thing to do. Andthen, because you're in an area
where there's very little lightpollution, this fantastic night
view. So if there's no clouds,you know, there's some brilliant
opportunities to see the, youknow, the wonders of, of space
without, without all that light,light pollution.
Michael Moran (35:56):
When you were there, Julian, how long do you
spend in the area? Or did youlike me, I might, as I said,
it's sunny should see, but it'ssomething you're driving
through.
Julian Bishop (36:07):
I think I would advise people maybe spent two
nights that light. But weweren't able to get a
combination for two nights. Sowe managed to get pretty
ordinary accommodation for onenight. So we had, you know,
maybe an afternoon and then mostof the next day, you know, to
(36:28):
explore the area, and which wasfine. I'm definitely seeking to
go back that, you know, I willgo back to monument.
Michael Moran (36:35):
He didn't stay in the hotel with the monument
view. No, there
Julian Bishop (36:38):
was no chance of Yeah, I mean, the views are to
die for. So you're going to askbecause it's
Michael Moran (36:43):
a National Park Hotel, is it? No. So
Julian Bishop (36:48):
I say no, I Yeah.
I don't know whether it is adate. I'm guessing. I think that
gaulding slosh has been thereforever, or for a long time. But
I think all the rest of it isyou know, really at the at the
pleasure of the Navajos, you'reonly allowed to do what the
Navajos allow you that becauseit's their reservation. So I'm
guessing the hotel is related tothat, but I don't know I didn't
(37:11):
stay there. Okay. Yeah, and Iwould strongly urge you to go
back and because if you've onlyseen it from the roads, you've
only seen a percentage you know,it's when you go off the track
and you see all these just sortof wonderful things which you
know, which are not availablebut not visible from the road
that you see the Marvel's whatfilms have you seen which
(37:31):
feature monument
Michael Moran (37:34):
seen many films is not a great western fan, but
you know, sort of so is it shewore yellow ribbon. I'm pill was
filmed there, wasn't it?
Julian Bishop (37:43):
Oh, is that?
Yeah, I think it was, I think, Idon't know, I did see a John
Wayne film when I was inMonument Valley. And it might
have been that one. Although itmight have been the searchers or
or something else.
Michael Moran (37:56):
I couldn't find a reference to it, but it was
producing that did not seek aneasy ride was well, didn't they
have these? So that's so that'sthe way to get filled
connections to Monument Valley,
Julian Bishop (38:11):
where there are a ton of westerns, including ones
which are longtime forgotten. Sosociol Leonese, once upon a time
in America was filmed the LoneRanger. Yeah, the Johnny Depp
version, which I guess is aWestern that is filmed there.
And that you know, there must behundreds of other Western film
(38:32):
there. And then more recently,2001 A Space Odyssey It was
filmed their mission impossibleto I think was filmed there.
Easy Ride and National Lampoon'sVacation was filmed there. And
then Forrest Gump was filmed.
Michael Moran (38:47):
Of course it was yes, it was really. It was
really? Yeah.
Julian Bishop (38:51):
Do you remember my Christmas card from a few
years? Yes. When
Michael Moran (38:55):
you impersonated Phil.
Julian Bishop (38:57):
Yeah, well, we did some sort of impersonation
of us pretending to be foreign.
I think Dawson number twopretended to be Forrest Gump
while the rest of us pretendedto be her accolades. And that
was actually on the roads goingnorthwards. I think that might
have even been in Utah. So witha favorite sort of backdrops,
there's a reason that all thesefilmmakers have chosen to film
their, you know, their moviesthere. It's a landscape like
(39:20):
nothing else. I haven't beeneverywhere in the West, but I
think it's just marvelous. Iwould always say to people go to
Monument Park. Yeah. But theydon't make it easy.
Michael Moran (39:33):
No, but and I suppose I'm thinking is if you
can engineer a way to drivethrough it, are we always gonna
say say that if you're goingsomewhere and you can find a
little way to go go through it,then it's definitely worth that
view. How long you stay in yourI did go off off off the road.
So that may be something Ishould do next time.
Julian Bishop (39:56):
Yeah, I would strongly suggest you do that
next time. Oh, that's justgreat. Just just this fantastic,
as you see, you know, obviously,whenever you're on any road,
anywhere, you're only seeingsmall bits of what when you're
allowed, you know, the JeepTours, I think go even further.
But when you're allowed to usethe scenic drive, it's not
(40:17):
tarmac surfaces. It's, you know,it's it's rough and ready. But
when you're on those roads, andyou're away from the main roads
that the sights areextraordinary. Yeah.
Michael Moran (40:28):
So you want to give it a school?
Julian Bishop (40:30):
Yeah, I'm a five year fine. Okay. i Oh,
absolutely. I think thatMonument Valley was one of the
best things you can Okay,
Michael Moran (40:37):
so I'm gonna say it's a four, it's definitely
worth seeing. But you've alreadyflagged up the real issue is
that if you really want to seeit properly, you've got to book
hotels, and it's not easy to dothat. Is it? That's the That's
the difficult one, because thereare a lot of places that are
anyway. And those that are youhave to play well, in advance, I
suggest.
Julian Bishop (40:57):
Yeah, and it's a long way from anywhere else that
you're going to be want to be,you know, you are talking about
a day's drive to get there aday's drive to get somewhere
else, you know, so, bydefinition, if you're go, you
see the way I my marketing scoreis, you know, three years yeah,
if you're there, it's good. Goand have a look at it for us.
Yeah, make a special trip. And afive is Yeah, you really would
(41:20):
make that your you know, themain points of your, I would say
you go even if you're takingyourself, you're having to drive
two days to get there and back.
You do it because the views areso marvelous.
Michael Moran (41:33):
So there we are doing a big fan, a big fan of
Monument Valley, and date.
That concludes Episode 48,Julian and episode 49. We're
(41:55):
going to do something a littledifferent way we're going to
revisit what we did earlier onNew York. But this time, I think
what I will do is critique whatwe've said previously, and
highlight a number of thingsabout New York before replaying
the episode. So that's what'sfor tonight is going to be
anything further to add. Beforewe go. I should mention. One of
(42:18):
our listeners, Alexander Fushitook issue, Julian with your
assessment of Memphis. And thenAtlanta, in fact, thought you
had it wrong way round was a bigfan of Memphis,
Julian Bishop (42:32):
but less of a big fan of Atlanta. They were big
fan of a lot less a fan ofAtlanta, a lesser fundamental.
Sorry, that was me. I ratedMemphis high. Okay. I'm doing a
disservice. And I think thatAtlanta is fine. And it's a big
successful city, and it's agreat place to live. But in
terms of a place to visit, Ithink it's it's fine. You know,
(42:52):
if you're, if you're passingthrough, there's plenty to do.
And we talked about the thingsfor sure. plenty to do. I think
that Memphis is a slightly moreinteresting place to visit than
Atlanta. So yeah, I wasdefinitely if you go back.
You'll see that I rated I think,I think I rated Memphis a four
and Atlanta three.
Michael Moran (43:11):
But my recollection was that your
description of Memphis was alittle bit down at heel.
Admittedly, you said it was awhile since you'd been. And the
center was was Alexander who hadbeen fairly recently was very
upmarket about it. He said, Youknow, as a place for
regeneration. He was verypositive about Memphis.
Julian Bishop (43:31):
Well, there's definitely a lot of opportunity
for regeneration in Memphis.
Yeah, it's been a few yearssince I've been to Memphis and I
would definitely go to Memphisagain. You know, I think that
they have a number of issues,which will take a while to Okay,
Michael Moran (43:45):
so that was the first one. The second one
talking about the neck episode.
I know another one of our keylisteners. Simon Ghazni is just
returned from a trip to NewYork. So I will touch base with
Simon and get some input fromhim and what his view is where
people should go in New Yorkcurrently. Excellent as of the
end of episode 48 Julian asalways, it's goodbye for me and
(44:05):
it's goodbye from him
Unknown (44:14):
I've got my crazy race.
Lazy
Welcome to Episode 48 of an American
journey with me Michael Moranand Julian Bishop. Julian, I
believe it. You're just backfrom Miami. How was that?
Julian Bishop (00:26):
Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah, we were staying
with friends. Our friends have aboat. So we were exploring the
beautiful Biscayne Bay, which isthe Bay between Miami mainland
and Miami Beach and exploringthe Miami River as well. Just a
fantastic experience pull up ona bay Island. You swim on the on
(00:48):
the beach, you know joy, thebackdrop of all of the Miami
skyscrapers, you go up thebillionaire boats are just a
really fantastic experience.
Michael Moran (00:59):
And I have to ask, Was there any fishing,
knowing the great fisherman youare
Julian Bishop (01:04):
no fishing, we didn't do any fishing. There are
so many skyscrapers in Miami, Idon't know what the number is.
And, you know, we've enjoyedtrying to spot anyone actually,
in the skyscrapers. There mustbe an awful lot of empty
properties in Miami, people fromoverseas who bought a piece of
real estate and just using it asan investment. So we enjoyed
(01:26):
that we enjoyed, you know, beingin the water, a few drinks, that
type of thing and go shopping atpeople's boats, there was some
multi 100 million dollar boatsand in that day, so you have
Michael Moran (01:38):
a glimpse of how the other half live, Julian,
that's what you're telling me.
Julian Bishop (01:42):
We were very privileged, you know, being in
our position, but you quicklyrealize that you're nowhere near
as privileged as others. So youknow, some of these boats have,
you know, 40 bedrooms on them.
Oh, gosh.
Michael Moran (01:54):
So more you're on a boat.
Julian Bishop (01:57):
Yeah, yeah. It's one of you know, one of the
Walmart's RSS boats. And we alsodid some yoga in the park. And
we met many of their friendsthat had a barbecue. We met many
of their friends, many of whomare most of whom were British
expats from a long time ago. Soyeah, we had a we had a great
time.
Michael Moran (02:16):
Excellent. So today, we're going to look at a
bit of a change in direction forthe podcast. We're going to go a
bit of historical data. Julian,we're going to look at the
assassination of JFK. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (02:29):
Yeah, I think the idea is that we're going to deal
with a few us historicalincidents and just talk about
and you suggested assassinationof JFK, because apparently, you
know something about it. Do youremember what you were doing on
the day that JFK was shot?
Michael Moran (02:44):
Taking the words out of my mouth to them? Because
I do well remember what I wasdoing on Friday, the 22nd of
November 1963. Okay, so
Julian Bishop (02:56):
you have an alibi?
Michael Moran (02:57):
I do. Indeed, it can be corroborated by my
mother, I'm not sure be a bit ofa chance to bring it in on the
witness stand, given that shedied a number of years ago, but
I double check my memory becauseand the great news about the
internet, you can go on and seewhat was on the television.
Because I believe I was watchingis Harry remember how we worth
(03:19):
he was on and it must have beenI've heard of him by the
timings, a timing, I think ifyou want to back watched eight,
and they interrupted theprogram, to now see the death of
the president. Now, given thetime difference, and the
assassination took place aroundnoon. Interestingly, we're
saying it that three and a halfhours for that news to come into
the UK.
Julian Bishop (03:40):
It took a while for it to hit the networks as
well in the US.
Michael Moran (03:44):
So what were you doing, Julian?
Julian Bishop (03:45):
I wasn't born Michael. I wasn't conceived
before my time. So I have a castiron alibi.
Michael Moran (03:52):
Where do we want to start with it? Because I
suppose one of my things isthere is I mean, now was it 50
odd years almost, you know, sortof that there is a fascination
with it, isn't that and we'vehad we did an episode on
conspiracy theories. And Isuspect this is probably the
number one conspiracy theorythat we it was not Lee Oswald,
who did it, you know. Andindeed, in a sense, that was
(04:15):
vindicated, wasn't it?
Subsequent to the WarrenCommission, the United States
House Select Committee onAssassinations did postulate
that there was possibly aconspiracy? Didn't say Who was
it? They did didn't say who itwasn't.
Julian Bishop (04:30):
But I think the findings were that it was
probably a conspiracy relatingto mobsters. That was their that
was their findings. You know,it's just a group of congressmen
wasn't it wasn't experts oranything just a group of
politicians and
Michael Moran (04:45):
and did you see the Kevin Costner film which
frankly, I find most confusingwhen? Well, it was the Oliver
Stone. Yeah. Kevin's got to playthe the lead attorney, didn't
they? I didn't see the film yet.
I don't think he made made thecase that mean the end of the
film. I certainly wasn'tconvinced that there was a case
to answer. Would you agree?
Julian Bishop (05:06):
I liked the film.
I think it was beautifully shot.
You know, at the time that thatstyle of filmmaking was in its
infancy, and I thought it was agreat film to watch. But I
believe that it was Lee HarveyOswald, who shot the president.
That's my belief.
Michael Moran (05:23):
Having said that, he was a pretty good shot there.
Mostly. It was a bloody goodshot. Well, he
Julian Bishop (05:28):
was a sharp Yeah, he joined the Marines in what
was it? 1956. And he trained asa sharpshooter there,
Michael Moran (05:36):
but two out of three on a moving target. Yeah.
would be. I would just say, youknow, saying
Julian Bishop (05:45):
you're saying that somebody was in the car and
shot him from a non moving, youknow, a much closer range. I
mean, somebody shot him thatnight. Yeah. Sorry, would have
been a moving target for anyone.
Michael Moran (05:58):
I mean, I suppose there was a great deal of sort
of speculation as to wherethey're looking for that some
that there was a second shooteron the on the Hill on the
hillock. I know grassy knoll.
But the evidence of that is, issketchy, but I'm just saying to
get two shots off on a movingtarget for what was it about 170
(06:19):
meters?
Julian Bishop (06:23):
Yep, that's what he's trained for. But it's a
good shot.
Michael Moran (06:26):
It's a good shot.
Julian Bishop (06:28):
That's a good shot. Yeah, it's a quote two
good shots.
Michael Moran (06:31):
And one will say, I mean, again, just checking
back, you know, you say he wastrained, but you'd have to be
shooting on a fairly regularbasis, I suspect, to have that
level of accuracy. I don't knowwhether he was or not.
Julian Bishop (06:42):
When he bought the rifle in March of 1963, that
I had a zoom on it of fourtimes, you know, normal vision,
he had a quite a few months topractice with that gun. You
know, he was trained how to doit. And as I say, somebody shot
it, you know, there weren'treally a lot of places nearby
(07:04):
that people would have got amuch better, you know, where
you're going to be undisturbed.
There weren't that many otherplaces. So, you know, there was
somebody who was a good shooter,and if it wasn't him, then, you
know, had to be someone else.
Michael Moran (07:18):
And they hadn't appreciated. They didn't do
research. And by the way, I didreally read that's long term
care. Manchester's book on thedeath of a president, you know,
which causes the events in somedetail. But again, I hadn't
picked up that actually. Oswaldthen killed another person on
point for arrest didn't date.
Yeah, he
Julian Bishop (07:35):
didn't select should we do at the time? Yeah,
go. Timeline was that Lee HarveyOswald. He dropped out of high
school in 1956. And he joinedthe Marines and he trained as a
sharp suit shooter. Then in1959, he defected to the Soviet
Union, and lived in Minsk, whichis, which is now part of Bella
(07:57):
Russia.
Michael Moran (07:58):
And did you have any connection? So that
defection, Julian? Did he haveconnections that took him to
Minsk?
Julian Bishop (08:06):
No, no, no, I think there were ideologic.
Yeah. Then in 1962, who returnedto Texas, but then he had a
wife,
Michael Moran (08:15):
and was repatriate. He wasn't a so he
got it. He was sort of early forwhatever reason, funded to go
back into the states.
Julian Bishop (08:24):
And then in 1963, which is the year of the
assassination, as I said, earlyon, he bought the rifle in March
for $20. He then looked to tryto go back to the Soviet Union.
I think he was he had a job andhe was fired from that job. You
know, so life wasn'tparticularly going well with
(08:45):
him. And, you know, ran thatsort of March period, if there
was a trial run with some anticommunist general, and bullet
was fired at this general and hemissed and his wife told the FBI
at that time, she thought thatthis attempted assassination
might have been her husband. Soyou know, so that happened in
(09:06):
April before the before JFKassassination. And September, he
looked to try and escape the US,the US, but he got a passport.
He traveled to Mexico and hetried to go to Cuba and the USS
Sr. and he was denied visas inboth countries. He then returned
(09:29):
to the US and he got a job withthe Book Depository store in
October. So that's you know, asI see it, some of the key facts
relating to Lee Harvey Oswaldand before the the
assassination, was thereanything else you picked out
which you thought was germane?
Michael Moran (09:45):
No, no, I mean, I said Yeah, the thing I I
wondered what made him go to theRussia in the first place, and
then he came back. I don't thinkany evidence that he was
anywhere Russian spy was
Julian Bishop (09:58):
the major groups as this is a mobster. killing.
And there's another group whichsays so, particularly at the
time look horrible his time inthe Soviet Union. You know,
maybe this is something youremember, this is a year after
the bear picks, the Soviet Unionwas the evil empire. So I think
there were a number of peoplewho said, Oh, yeah, this is a,
you know, this is a spy sent by,by the Soviet Union,
Michael Moran (10:20):
the evidence again, is thin on the ground say
he actually was a spy. Yeah,
Julian Bishop (10:24):
the timeline, at least that I set out, provides a
motive of sorts. It provides acapability, if indeed, he was
involved in the attemptedassassination of the US General,
whose name I now forget someform of planning.
Michael Moran (10:43):
So So what do you say in the military, this, I'll
accept capability? I is asharpshooter.
Julian Bishop (10:49):
What is motive?
Is he you know, he was procommunist. He showed that twice
won by going there in the firstplace. And secondly, by, you
know, trying to go there again,and then being denied the
thesis, obviously bought a gun,you know, that there's a whole
range of A and I'm not sayingit's the strongest motive. It's
motive enough, I think, leads toa mind which isn't necessarily
(11:10):
thinking strokey
Michael Moran (11:14):
if we were looking at alternative theories
and the monster one, so what'sthe rationale behind the
monster? Well, he was killed bya mobster.
Julian Bishop (11:23):
I think the argument goes that JFK and his
brother Robert, cracking down onmobsters, so his brother was,
was attorney general. They werebasically going after the main
mobster. So that is the motivefrom the mobster side that they
were actually trying to kill thepresident so that they would
really release the pressure ontheir own businesses.
Michael Moran (11:46):
But again, no connection been Oswald and
mobsters?
Julian Bishop (11:49):
No, I think people have suggested there
might be I don't know, I haven'tfollowed that one to the nth
degree. Obviously, there arepeople who strongly believe that
is the case. And then on the dayitself. So I think it happened
at 1230. And there were threeshots fired. So the first shot,
(12:09):
I think, hit the back of JFKthroat, there was a little bit
of a gap. And then there weretwo further shots. One of these,
at least, hit the president'shead. And that resulted in the
famous quote from, from JackieKennedy. I have his brains in my
hand. And I think that shot alsoricocheted also hit the governor
(12:33):
of Texas did, who was who wassitting beside him, and then at
1233, Lee Harvey Oswald left theBook Depository. There was a
policeman there who let him outafter someone else identified
him as you know, somebody whoworked at the Book Depository
route about 1240. The BookDepository was locked down by by
(12:57):
their security services. But bythis time, Lee Harvey Oswald was
was on a bus, that bus gotcaught in traffic, he left the
bus, he got into a cab, and hegot home by one o'clock. Once he
got home, he left home. Fiveminutes later, at 115. He shot
and killed a police officer whostopped him because he matched
(13:20):
the description of of a personthey were looking for time at
140 He entered a theater, amovie theater, and somebody saw
him and they called the policeand they notified the police 150
that police arrived. He resistedarrest, he tried to shoot
another officer. And then whenhe was detained, he allegedly
(13:43):
told them well, it's all overnow. And then he was taken into
into police custody at 705. Hewas charged with the murder of
the police officer. And by 1126in the evening, he was charged
with the murder of JFK. Sothat's broadly the timeframe.
You think that there is anotherexplanation other than it being
(14:04):
Lee Harvey Oswald?
Michael Moran (14:05):
No, no, no, I suppose. I'm more fascinated
with the fact that the wayconspiracy theorists and new the
issue of being able to have tohit two shots at the middle of
moving target. Notwithstandingthe fact you say is a sharp suit
is is an injury. It was a bigdistance hit people with
Julian Bishop (14:26):
if it weren't him. Someone else had to do it.
Yes. Because there wasn't acloser bit. There wasn't
something where there wasn't amoving target. So it had to be
someone
Michael Moran (14:35):
and of course, because it was so many years
ago, what we don't have is thatsort of what you would today is
lots and lots of camera anglesof the incident. In fact,
Julian Bishop (14:46):
the we have one that way there's a prude of the
supreme Yeah, so
Michael Moran (14:51):
I spent my view on that is it although it
clearly shows the shots hittingthe car. He doesn't doesn't give
you any real clue. to where theshots were coming from.
Julian Bishop (15:01):
Yeah, well, I guess the promo was focusing on,
rather.
Michael Moran (15:08):
So So in a sense the day, I've pretty certain
when they're off social media,we would have had all sorts of
camera angles. Yeah. And then,and then you come to the sort of
the strange actually, we're very
Julian Bishop (15:21):
lucky to have that one filming. Because it was
only one guy in the crowd withwhat was then a high tech camera
and he was filming in colorSuper Eight that we we have even
though some that film, but then
Michael Moran (15:34):
you have the sort of strange things like the the
umbrella on the hill. Yeah, sortof. I mean, people say, Well,
you know, was a nice sunny day,why would somebody have an
umbrella up? Well, there musthave been signaling to a third
body. So you get these sorts of,you know,
Julian Bishop (15:47):
oh, they were just putting the umbrella up to
keep in the shade. Because itwas a sunny day.
Michael Moran (15:52):
Exactly. But there's so so that's, I suppose
how, you know, I mean, they hadthe villain and they clearly
identified him and he wascharged clearly was wasn't just
the fact. He tried to shoot thepresident. You know, he resisted
arrest, he killed somebody. ButI don't think there were ever
quite satisfied with the storythat it was Lee, maybe they
(16:12):
wanted something more from thestory.
Julian Bishop (16:14):
I mean, I think the main reason there are a lot
of conspiracy stories, andparticularly around being the
mob was that two days later,when he was being transported
from the police station? I don'tknow where he was being
transported to, presumably thecourthouse. He was shot live on
television, by Jack Ruby, whowas mafia linked nightclub
(16:39):
owner? Yeah. So I think that waspart of it. The official line is
that Jack Ruby shot him, becausehe was so angry that somebody
had shot the president. Butothers have said, well, maybe
he's trying to eliminate thewitness. Yeah. I don't know
which story you believe that Ithink had that not happened. I
don't know that there would havebeen quite as many conspiracy
(17:00):
theories. Yeah, I mean, thereare a number of US presidents
who have been shot andassassinated. So you know, JFK
was the fifth one. So I guess,people will see a pattern, you
know, and say, well, not all ofthese can be accidents, let's,
you know, the deep state or, youknow, whatever, which is, you
know, trying to control thesethings.
Michael Moran (17:19):
Let's go slightly forward, then. Because
obviously, the next question youhave to ask is, so, how do you
live? Wilson? Would history havetaken a different turn than the
way it did when Lyndon Johnsonthen took over?
Julian Bishop (17:32):
Well, it certainly would have done
because they were, you know,they had quite different policy.
And they were very differentpeople, which is, of course, why
Lyndon Johnson was selected asrunning mate. But I don't know
what what is your hypothesis?
Well,
Michael Moran (17:45):
I mean, so for example, the issue of as a
Vietnam, would that have been avery different track. I'm not
sure. But, you know, so,
Julian Bishop (17:54):
because he died relatively young into his
presidency, and he was a verytelegenic person. History has
treated him recently, currently,there's no real certainty that
had he stayed that he would haveended the Vietnam War earlier.
And indeed, you know, if youthink about it, the, you know,
only the oil, you'd had the Bayof Pigs. So, you know, to
(18:18):
actually give up on a, you know,a conflict, which was
essentially about stopping thepromotion of communism, when
you'd been threatened the yearbefore. Seems probably unlikely
that that would have happened asquickly as it did. But I don't
know you have an alternativeview? I mean, I'm I'm guessing
(18:40):
that most politicians, what'sthat? What's that phrase? They
say that every political careerEnsign economy, that that would
have happened to him had he notbeen assassinated? I
Michael Moran (18:50):
agree with you.
And this is, as Sal said, wewere talking about dying young,
the history has been very kindon it isn't, you know, sort of
the it sort of the hope andexpectation, which clearly
wasn't fulfilled, as has beenvery positive mean, you know, we
only got a little bit furtherdown the road, because then, you
know, remember, he famously beatNixon didn't in the election.
And what sorts of was that way?
(19:13):
Eight years later, we got Nixonand Nixon in power, and the way
the way that it ended up withWatergate, so you
Julian Bishop (19:21):
make some did stop? Yeah, it was under his
presidency that that stopped.
So, you know, what would havehappened? Would he have won
reelection in 1964? Four? Yeah,maybe maybe he would have done
to me the really interestingquestion is, what would have
happened had Bobby Kennedy notbeen assassinated a few years
later. Because to me, I thinkBobby Kennedy was kind of a shoo
(19:42):
in for President even though hewas a writing candidate. I think
he would have definitely beenelected. So you would have had
Bobby Kennedy, you know, who wasa lot more liberal, I think,
than his brother in power at atime, you know, instead of next,
that would Have would have beeninteresting. But again, you
don't get to play that game. Areyou aware of Occam's razor?
(20:04):
Might? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, Itake the view that usually the
simplest explanation is likelyto be more correct. Okay. And in
this case, somebody who issomething going on in his head,
he assassinated Kennedy alone,but I'm sure there are listeners
who are more informed than uswho would take a different view.
Michael Moran (20:28):
And I'm interested in sort of legacy in
the sense that Americans seemtoday. I mean, is it something
that they fascinated by thedelay speak favorably of him,
you know, sort of, in, in yourconversations with people? Is it
something that's well, it's nowancient history, you know,
Julian Bishop (20:46):
somebody who was a kind of an adult when he was
president. So you're talkingabout somebody who's well into
their 70s or 80s, obviously,fewer of them around and they
wouldn't necessarily been tointerest in politics at that
time as well. So, you know, ifyou are liberally inclined, you
will be inclined towards thefact that he was, you know, a
(21:10):
liberal person during a time ofgreat conservatism in US
politics, it's, you will befavorably inclined to him if you
are, if you're more to the rightof that you're more inclined to,
you know, to link him to, toliberal politicians that you
don't like. So I think a lot ofthe views of him are are based
on on one side is politics. Ithink most Americans hate the
(21:34):
idea that that people willassassinate a democratically
elected politician. And theylament the fact that so many
tragedies have happened to theKennedy family. Yeah. Recently,
we had one of the Kennedyfamily, nominate himself for the
next Democratic president. Somaybe that, you know, that
family legacy has isn't quiteover yet.
Michael Moran (21:56):
And just sort of just falling badly. So
presumably, this is taught in inschools? So I'm assuming your
daughters who are exposed to it.
I mean, I I wonder if so thehistory what what is seen as his
legacy in the sense of, andbecause they came out not long
after McCarthyism, did he so youknow, sort of you talked about
(22:16):
him being a liberal thinker, youknow, sort of did that
significantly change theAmericans destiny, or was just
merely a blip in the road beforethey stared down to further
right inside? Again,
Julian Bishop (22:31):
my own personal view, was one of the things that
you tried to do when you'reelecting a president, because
the president essentially is incharge of foreign policy, and
the security of the country.
Therefore, what you're lookingfor one of the things you're
looking for, when you're lookingat potential presidents as
you're looking at theircharacter, and you're looking
what they're going to be like ina crisis. And as I look at his
(22:53):
legacy, and the fact that he hadenough fortitude, even though
there were others telling him,he should be more conciliatory,
basically, to threaten theSoviet Union, with all out war,
you know, if they continuedtheir plans in Cuba, and to me,
(23:13):
I know, there can be loads ofpeople who disagree with this.
But to me, that was a keydecision, and it was a correct
decision. And I'm pleased thathe had the fortitude of
character to do that. Maybe someother presidents wouldn't
necessarily have that. Iappreciate that, you know, that
at least is, you know, is a,it's a very strong legacy for
(23:38):
the EU. And it
Michael Moran (23:40):
is interesting, because you talk about the sort
of the the legacy of thestandoff with good jobs, and
eventually one of them backingdown. Yet, not long before that
we'd have the actual debacle,the invasion in the Bay of Pigs.
Later, there was of clearly asignificant mistake was made by
(24:00):
Kennedy and his entourage, youknow, and indeed, why. And so
the, the advice given to him atthat point, most people's was
view was poor advice, but helistened to it. On the other
hand, the standoff over thenuclear missiles, again, he
said, had similar sorts ofadvice, but this time he did
ignore it. And as you say,history views him much more
(24:20):
favorably on the fact that hedid stand up and Khrushchev back
down.
Julian Bishop (24:26):
The other legacy that he had was with his
brother, he had started tochange the nature of the laws
and challenge federallychallenge some of the state's
laws on civil rights. And Ithink that is the other you
know, he wasn't around longenough to see all of that
(24:47):
through, but he's certainly aman his brother in particular,
certainly did a lot in thatspace, which I think is you
know, it's a it's a great legacyas well. Yeah.
Michael Moran (24:58):
You started failing me on the phone. At that
it was Lee Harvey Oswald killKennedy. And there were no other
factors involved in that.
Julian Bishop (25:08):
Oh, no, I think there are other theories. I just
think that the other theoriesare even more absurd. Yeah.
Somebody admits to it. Andthere's some deep state
involvement, and then somebody'sdocumenting it. I think at this
point, we're left with what wehave already. And that would
probably indicate on the balanceof probabilities that it was Lee
(25:29):
Harvey. But
Michael Moran (25:30):
the real thing I'm always fascinated is, is why
it is such a significant event,you know, and event and as
always with history. So whatwould have happened? Had he
survived, you know, that type ofthing. And, you know, as a
result of one, this sort of lonegunman did he significantly
changed the American historygoing forward? Question, but we
(25:53):
don't know.
Julian Bishop (25:54):
Well, I think I think the answer must have been
Yes. I mean, the US president isimportant figure. It was x. It's
now why, of course, they'regoing to be major things which
change, not least because, youknow, Kennedy and Johnson were
pretty good. Yeah. So yeah. Soof course, it would have
significantly changed.
Michael Moran (26:12):
Johnson never got reelected today.
Julian Bishop (26:15):
Yeah, he did.
Yeah. So what Johnson didn't do.
So there was a kind of anunderstanding that you could
only serve for two terms. Andthen FDR, he served for more
than two terms. And so theychanged the Constitution at that
point, to limit it to twoelected terms. And we Johnson
(26:37):
obviously had half a term wherehe wasn't elected as president,
but he was elected as vicepresident. Then he won the next
election. And then he declinedto stand in 1968. Even though
there are some people who weresaying to him, Look, you can
stand again in 68, because youhaven't been elected. Yes. You
(26:59):
are elected once and then hadhalf of a term. Lyndon Johnson
won the 64 election. Okay.
Michael Moran (27:05):
But he was a very different character to Kennedy
Wilson.
Julian Bishop (27:10):
When he was a Texan. Yeah. Kennedy was from a
incredible family. Yeah, so butyeah, I mean, I guess the
similar question could be madeof Lincoln's assassination, what
would have happened had Lincolnnot being assassinated, and to a
lesser extent, Garfield orMcKinley,
Michael Moran (27:30):
if you take Reagan who obviously survived
Reagan, had he died, what whatsignificance had been because,
again, if you take the foreignpolicy of Reagan, particularly
the I will say, appeasement ofthe West, and Gorbachev and how
that took no one could reallyargue that a different person,
(27:52):
they will take in a verydifferent line on that.
Julian Bishop (27:54):
Yes, I think that's right. And especially as
that precedent then would havebeen George George Bush, the
elder I mean, arguably, Reaganwas even more important in the
ongoing battle with the, youknow, with with communism, but
yes, Hinckley wasn't as good ashot and he didn't really have
(28:15):
much of a moving target
Michael Moran (28:16):
and he was close to him wasn't like he said he
wasn't a sharpshooter.
So we move on to happier things,which is vacationing in Monument
(28:40):
Valley. Yes. And a bit of adisadvantage because I can say I
have driven through it. I've notstayed at it. And I do have a
question. The four statesboundary monument. Yeah. Would
you say that in Monument Valley?
Julian Bishop (28:53):
I definitely wouldn't. Because the four
corners as it's called I thinkis two maybe even three hours
away. So I would say itdefinitely isn't there is a for
non American listeners that theUS states on the west most of
the time don't follow naturalboundaries like rivers are
(29:14):
straight lines. And so you havethis this area where there are
four straight lines meeting eachother. So theoretically at least
you can have a nominal leg infour states simultaneously. So
and people I've never been therebefore corners but dad I think
(29:34):
it's about three hours away. Itspositioning is very remote as
you know, there's not a lotwhich is nearby I think it's was
about a six hour drive fromVegas and five hours from
Phoenix and five hours fromAlbuquerque eight hours from
Denver. You know, it's notreally near anything. It's right
in the middle of Navajoterritory.
Michael Moran (29:57):
Never hotels you must be large because Four
Corners is also in Navajoterritory, is them
Julian Bishop (30:03):
of the lower 48.
They have the largestreservation size. Yeah, so what
was your experience, then youwould sort of drive them from A
to B. And
Michael Moran (30:11):
I think we will Phoenix and I'm trying to think
whether we're driving all theway back to Colorado, or we were
driving to Vegas, deliberatelywent through it. It's amazing
scenery, you know, butobviously, it's not like when we
did Grand Canyon, I did it fromthere, you doing it from the
road, and you see all theseMises and buttes around you and,
you know, it's like a moonlandscape, isn't it? You know,
(30:35):
but there's nothing else thereother than these fantastic sort
of, you know, visitors of, ofmountains, which, over the
process of time are crumblingand eroding, and leaving these
huge stacks of, I wouldn't sayred stones now that would,
Julian Bishop (30:50):
yeah, that's right. It's red, red sands.
Yeah, just use drive on theroads or to to go
Michael Moran (30:55):
on the road. And again, from memory, we worked, I
think, where we did staysomewhere. And there was I
noticed a Navajo Reservation,because obviously, it was no
alcohol. And we, we, wecertainly drove flight from like
the middle of the day and, andobviously into the evening, as
(31:17):
the sun goes down, it's veryimpressive. But as you then got
to the, the place, we werestaying at very late, and there
was literally nothing that wasjust eat,
Julian Bishop (31:25):
drink, or your must have been very grumpy. I
was I was,
Michael Moran (31:29):
except for the next morning, we had breakfast
in place. But I don't think thethe whole hotel which was owned
by the reservation, actually didany food, which we hadn't
appreciated the time we'vebooked into it, let's
Julian Bishop (31:42):
deal with accommodation first, shall we
because if we're actually tryingto provide useful advice for
people, accommodation is thenumber one thing you have to
focus on, there's one place thatyou should seek to stay if
you're going to Monument Valley,and that is a hotel called the
view hotels or that and that isvery difficult to book and it is
expensive. It has the name theview big it has the view to die
(32:05):
for giving any advice tosomebody, I would say try do
whatever you can to book thathotel. If you can't book it,
then there are a couple of otheroptions in Monument Valley. So
that's where we stayed, which isGoldings launch, which is, you
know, the very old hotelcomplex, which all the movie
(32:26):
stars used to stay at when theywere filming their movies. And
they've got a great museum withall the pictures of these movie
stars. And they got you know,they got a cinema there a little
cinema room and they've got allthe films which are made among
Monument Valley, so you canwatch those. And then the third
option is the is the TP village,the you know, which is
essentially camping. So tentedcamping. So those are your three
(32:49):
options. If you can't get any ofthose, then you're not going to
be able to stay in MonumentValley. And you'll have to go
somewhere else like Mexican hatin Utah or or, or one of the
several other places in Arizona.
So that is your number onething, if you're thinking of
going to Monument Valley, getyour accommodation sorted first,
and you can't remember where youstand,
Michael Moran (33:11):
it will tell. But I suspect it must have been by
the time we got there, or theedge of it or so having gone
through it
Julian Bishop (33:20):
in terms of things to do. So nowadays, the
two sort of main things, you caneither take an organized Jeep
Tour, where someone takes you ina jeep, and they drive you
around, kind of the all of thecountryside. Or you can do what
we did, which was to do a selftour. And I think we paid
there's a scenic drive you cando which only takes you to part
(33:41):
of it. I think it's about 20miles, maybe a bit less. And you
can do this scenic drive, andyou can stop off at various
points and admire the views. AndI think that is $20. You know,
so it's very sort of manageable.
And those tours are areterrific. And you didn't do
either of those. Is that right?
Michael Moran (34:00):
We would I made the point of driving through it.
As you will. I'm pretty sayingwe're driving back to Colorado,
the diet.
Julian Bishop (34:08):
Yeah, well, that would make sense that would make
sense that you did that. And sowe did the self tour and then we
stopped at various points. Andyou know, there are various bits
I think I seem to remember thatwe there was this horse that you
could get on and then the horsewould walk very slowly to the
end of some sort of greatprominent point. And you could
(34:31):
take photos of your of yourloved one on the horse
replicating John Wayne's whichwhichever moving stagecoach or
the searchers or something. Sowe did that. I think a number of
us went on that on that horsewith my with my family and also
my my mother. I think we do havepictures of various of us on the
(34:53):
horse there also used to sayit's Navajo territory. I
strongly believe that if you'regoing through parts of America
which is, which is NativeAmerican, which is Indian, that
you should stop and try andunderstand something about that
history, their lifestyle. Andthere are some entrepreneurial
Native Americans who will, youknow, who will show you what the
(35:16):
inside of their living quarterslook like. And I believe Lorna
had her hair braided. And, youknow, we saw some people making
baskets and so forth. I thinkelsewhere in Navajo territory,
we went to have a look at someof their dinosaur bones that
they'd found that. So, you know,there's a lot of opportunity for
that type of thing. And, youknow, I think that is, that's a
(35:38):
really good thing to do. Andthen, because you're in an area
where there's very little lightpollution, this fantastic night
view. So if there's no clouds,you know, there's some brilliant
opportunities to see the, youknow, the wonders of, of space
without, without all that light,light pollution.
Michael Moran (35:56):
When you were there, Julian, how long do you
spend in the area? Or did youlike me, I might, as I said,
it's sunny should see, but it'ssomething you're driving
through.
Julian Bishop (36:07):
I think I would advise people maybe spent two
nights that light. But weweren't able to get a
combination for two nights. Sowe managed to get pretty
ordinary accommodation for onenight. So we had, you know,
maybe an afternoon and then mostof the next day, you know, to
(36:28):
explore the area, and which wasfine. I'm definitely seeking to
go back that, you know, I willgo back to monument.
Michael Moran (36:35):
He didn't stay in the hotel with the monument
view. No, there
Julian Bishop (36:38):
was no chance of Yeah, I mean, the views are to
die for. So you're going to askbecause it's
Michael Moran (36:43):
a National Park Hotel, is it? No. So
Julian Bishop (36:48):
I say no, I Yeah.
I don't know whether it is adate. I'm guessing. I think that
gaulding slosh has been thereforever, or for a long time. But
I think all the rest of it isyou know, really at the at the
pleasure of the Navajos, you'reonly allowed to do what the
Navajos allow you that becauseit's their reservation. So I'm
guessing the hotel is related tothat, but I don't know I didn't
(37:11):
stay there. Okay. Yeah, and Iwould strongly urge you to go
back and because if you've onlyseen it from the roads, you've
only seen a percentage you know,it's when you go off the track
and you see all these just sortof wonderful things which you
know, which are not availablebut not visible from the road
that you see the Marvel's whatfilms have you seen which
(37:31):
feature monument
Michael Moran (37:34):
seen many films is not a great western fan, but
you know, sort of so is it shewore yellow ribbon. I'm pill was
filmed there, wasn't it?
Julian Bishop (37:43):
Oh, is that?
Yeah, I think it was, I think, Idon't know, I did see a John
Wayne film when I was inMonument Valley. And it might
have been that one. Although itmight have been the searchers or
or something else.
Michael Moran (37:56):
I couldn't find a reference to it, but it was
producing that did not seek aneasy ride was well, didn't they
have these? So that's so that'sthe way to get filled
connections to Monument Valley,
Julian Bishop (38:11):
where there are a ton of westerns, including ones
which are longtime forgotten. Sosociol Leonese, once upon a time
in America was filmed the LoneRanger. Yeah, the Johnny Depp
version, which I guess is aWestern that is filmed there.
And that you know, there must behundreds of other Western film
(38:32):
there. And then more recently,2001 A Space Odyssey It was
filmed their mission impossibleto I think was filmed there.
Easy Ride and National Lampoon'sVacation was filmed there. And
then Forrest Gump was filmed.
Michael Moran (38:47):
Of course it was yes, it was really. It was
really? Yeah.
Julian Bishop (38:51):
Do you remember my Christmas card from a few
years? Yes. When
Michael Moran (38:55):
you impersonated Phil.
Julian Bishop (38:57):
Yeah, well, we did some sort of impersonation
of us pretending to be foreign.
I think Dawson number twopretended to be Forrest Gump
while the rest of us pretendedto be her accolades. And that
was actually on the roads goingnorthwards. I think that might
have even been in Utah. So witha favorite sort of backdrops,
there's a reason that all thesefilmmakers have chosen to film
their, you know, their moviesthere. It's a landscape like
(39:20):
nothing else. I haven't beeneverywhere in the West, but I
think it's just marvelous. Iwould always say to people go to
Monument Park. Yeah. But theydon't make it easy.
Michael Moran (39:33):
No, but and I suppose I'm thinking is if you
can engineer a way to drivethrough it, are we always gonna
say say that if you're goingsomewhere and you can find a
little way to go go through it,then it's definitely worth that
view. How long you stay in yourI did go off off off the road.
So that may be something Ishould do next time.
Julian Bishop (39:56):
Yeah, I would strongly suggest you do that
next time. Oh, that's justgreat. Just just this fantastic,
as you see, you know, obviously,whenever you're on any road,
anywhere, you're only seeingsmall bits of what when you're
allowed, you know, the JeepTours, I think go even further.
But when you're allowed to usethe scenic drive, it's not
(40:17):
tarmac surfaces. It's, you know,it's it's rough and ready. But
when you're on those roads, andyou're away from the main roads
that the sights areextraordinary. Yeah.
Michael Moran (40:28):
So you want to give it a school?
Julian Bishop (40:30):
Yeah, I'm a five year fine. Okay. i Oh,
absolutely. I think thatMonument Valley was one of the
best things you can Okay,
Michael Moran (40:37):
so I'm gonna say it's a four, it's definitely
worth seeing. But you've alreadyflagged up the real issue is
that if you really want to seeit properly, you've got to book
hotels, and it's not easy to dothat. Is it? That's the That's
the difficult one, because thereare a lot of places that are
anyway. And those that are youhave to play well, in advance, I
suggest.
Julian Bishop (40:57):
Yeah, and it's a long way from anywhere else that
you're going to be want to be,you know, you are talking about
a day's drive to get there aday's drive to get somewhere
else, you know, so, bydefinition, if you're go, you
see the way I my marketing scoreis, you know, three years yeah,
if you're there, it's good. Goand have a look at it for us.
Yeah, make a special trip. And afive is Yeah, you really would
(41:20):
make that your you know, themain points of your, I would say
you go even if you're takingyourself, you're having to drive
two days to get there and back.
You do it because the views areso marvelous.
Michael Moran (41:33):
So there we are doing a big fan, a big fan of
Monument Valley, and date.
That concludes Episode 48,Julian and episode 49. We're
(41:55):
going to do something a littledifferent way we're going to
revisit what we did earlier onNew York. But this time, I think
what I will do is critique whatwe've said previously, and
highlight a number of thingsabout New York before replaying
the episode. So that's what'sfor tonight is going to be
anything further to add. Beforewe go. I should mention. One of
(42:18):
our listeners, Alexander Fushitook issue, Julian with your
assessment of Memphis. And thenAtlanta, in fact, thought you
had it wrong way round was a bigfan of Memphis,
Julian Bishop (42:32):
but less of a big fan of Atlanta. They were big
fan of a lot less a fan ofAtlanta, a lesser fundamental.
Sorry, that was me. I ratedMemphis high. Okay. I'm doing a
disservice. And I think thatAtlanta is fine. And it's a big
successful city, and it's agreat place to live. But in
terms of a place to visit, Ithink it's it's fine. You know,
(42:52):
if you're, if you're passingthrough, there's plenty to do.
And we talked about the thingsfor sure. plenty to do. I think
that Memphis is a slightly moreinteresting place to visit than
Atlanta. So yeah, I wasdefinitely if you go back.
You'll see that I rated I think,I think I rated Memphis a four
and Atlanta three.
Michael Moran (43:11):
But my recollection was that your
description of Memphis was alittle bit down at heel.
Admittedly, you said it was awhile since you'd been. And the
center was was Alexander who hadbeen fairly recently was very
upmarket about it. He said, Youknow, as a place for
regeneration. He was verypositive about Memphis.
Julian Bishop (43:31):
Well, there's definitely a lot of opportunity
for regeneration in Memphis.
Yeah, it's been a few yearssince I've been to Memphis and I
would definitely go to Memphisagain. You know, I think that
they have a number of issues,which will take a while to Okay,
Michael Moran (43:45):
so that was the first one. The second one
talking about the neck episode.
I know another one of our keylisteners. Simon Ghazni is just
returned from a trip to NewYork. So I will touch base with
Simon and get some input fromhim and what his view is where
people should go in New Yorkcurrently. Excellent as of the
end of episode 48 Julian asalways, it's goodbye for me and
(44:05):
it's goodbye from him
Unknown (44:14):
I've got my crazy race.
Lazy
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