December 1, 2023 • 50 mins
In Episode 52, Michael and Julian talk about
1. Tucson. Michael may not be able to pronounce it and hasn't been there, but Julian tells him that he should visit it on one of his next trips.
2. Lewis & Clark. We talk about two of America's great explorers.
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Learn more about America's future in Julian's second book, Are We There Ye
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Moran (00:16):
Welcome to Episode 52 of an American
Journey. This week, of course,we're going to look at Tucson,
Arizona place I've not been toso eagerly looking forward to
what you have to say. And thenwe're going to discuss the
explorers extraordinaire, Lewisand Clark. I was thinking other
(00:37):
names that I was going to puttogether, Julie, but Lewis and
Clark, we're going to talkabout, but let's, before we talk
about Tucson, are we there yet?
Julian? We
Julian Bishop (00:46):
certainly are. My book is written, it's edited.
It's being published on the 27thof November.
Michael Moran (00:54):
Now you please remember chat, GBT did describe
you as a journalist, and I knowyour LinkedIn says you will
offer so the proof of thepudding. Julian is in the
reading, you will
Julian Bishop (01:05):
shortly be getting a copy. And we're
actually going to do a podcastwhere you're going to interview
me about the book, but you haveto read the book first.
Michael Moran (01:14):
And Julie's already told me he's got 135,000
words, and no big pictures. Soit could well be a challenge.
Yeah, yeah. But
Julian Bishop (01:22):
let's not mention to everyone, it's 135,000 words,
because that is not a sellingpoint. Let's just talk about the
good things that it's funny. Andit's interesting, you're gonna
learn lots. Yeah, well,
Michael Moran (01:34):
loads of things that's got lots of words,
Julian, that's not a lot. So.
And that was about the journey.
In fact, it was I have the wholesuspicion. Don't they use the
phrase? Are we there yet?
Julian Bishop (01:45):
But you know, I think they might, I mean, it's
been 50 years, it's almost 50years since I've read Lord of
the Rings. But it's not likeLord of the Rings in any way.
Michael Moran (01:55):
And I think the subtitle to the Hobbit was
there, and then we're backagain, also like that.
Julian Bishop (02:00):
I think that's right there and they're back
again. But this is are we thereyet, which has a different
connotation, different set ofmeanings.
Michael Moran (02:08):
And I'm looking forward to reading it. So shall
we start talking about Tucson?
And Julian? You normally mock meon my pronounciation of words
and places? Don't you? Rememberthe last episode we're talking
about? St. Louis, and we've beenSt. Louis and all that nonsense.
Why is it not called Tuckson? Asopposed to Tucson? When it's
spelled t you see? So when?
Julian Bishop (02:32):
Do you know? I have no idea. I'm sorry to
express my ignorance straightfrom the get go. But not a clue.
Although Did you see theexcellence Beatles documentary
get back the nine hour? I did.
Jackson, actually, you know,going for Fred? Yeah. Peter
Jackson, who did the Hobbit andwho did the Lord of the Rings.
(02:54):
He produced the nine hourdocumentary on the Beatles
making. Let it be an Abbey Road.
And in that documentary, I don'tknow if you remember, we saw
their marvelous thing of PaulMcCartney writing get back. And
he was sort of struggling withthis bass guitar. And then the
words came, and he came up withthis words from Tucson, Arizona.
(03:18):
And John Lennon said it's Tucsonin Arizona. And Paul said, yeah,
yeah, it is. Do you know whyPaul knew that Tucson was in
Arizona? No, but
Michael Moran (03:29):
you're gonna tell me, Julian. I am. And that
Julian Bishop (03:31):
is because that is where Linda McCartney, his
wife studied. She did a degreein photography at the University
of Arizona in Tucson because shevery much liked Tucson, and the
McCartney's, they bought a housethere are a ranch there and they
still have a ranch there. Gosh.
And while we were in Tucson, wewent to see a Linda McCartney
(03:52):
exhibition of her photographs,an excellent exhibition. It was
too before she met Paul, she wasa celebrity photographer. And
she was a very famedphotographer of of all of the
rock bands of that age. So yougot all these fantastic photos
of these famous rock stars attheir leisure, including,
(04:13):
obviously, Paul McCartney andthe rest of the Beatles.
Michael Moran (04:18):
And wasn't she also related to the Kodak family
and my writing thinking? You
Julian Bishop (04:22):
are not writing thinking? That is a myth is it
was the rumor at the time thatshe was massively rich because
she was related to the Kodakfamily. Actually, her father was
an East Coast New York lawyercalled Eastman. Right? So
Eastman Kodak, which is whypeople got along and the threat,
but actually her father was Imean, he was well to do he was,
(04:45):
you know, he was the top lawyeryet not related to the Kodak
family in any way. Okay,
Michael Moran (04:50):
so when did you go to Tucson? We went earlier
this year.
Julian Bishop (04:54):
In May I think it was. What do you know about
Tucson apart from fat you don'tknow why it's pronounce So that
way, I know
Michael Moran (05:01):
two facts. I'm surprised, Julian, you haven't
already addressed one with mebecause there's cause it's got
something to do with railways. Iunderstand that Frank Stillwell
who killed Morgan Ed, who Ipresume was a relative of the
famous white it was killed attwo sewn railway station by I
(05:25):
presume why tip tracking himdown? Oh, so that was first
thing. And the second thing is,oh, by the way, about 4% of the
population in Tucson areChinese. And their legacy is
they helped build a railway inTucson. Okay. Okay. And my last
one, which I have to relate toJones, we know Jones a big fan
(05:47):
of Art Deco. They have a verynice art deco theater called the
Fox Theater. Right? Did you gothere do
Julian Bishop (05:54):
we did not didn't go to any railway station
either.
Michael Moran (05:59):
I feel the railway station is no longer
there. Well, it does
Julian Bishop (06:03):
have as she was suggesting, with wire turrets
brother, it does have areasonably long history. There
barrio Viejo, too, which is anold neighborhood, they're very
close to where we stayed at thathas been around in continuous
inhabitation for 400 years,which in American terms is very
old. Tucson does have somehistory to it. We're talking
(06:24):
something which is round about50 or so miles from the Mexican
border. It has 350 days ofsunshine every year, Michael.
Michael Moran (06:34):
In fact, I looked yesterday, and the temperature
was 34 degrees, which I thoughtwould be a very nice
temperature, given it was not sonice here in London. So
Julian Bishop (06:44):
it's about half a million people who live in the
metro area there. It's you know,fairly Hispanic, I think there's
sort of kind of an equal numberof, of white people in Hispanic
and there's a good healthymixture of Native Americans as
well. The food is quiteinteresting there because you've
got the some of the NativeAmerican influences and you've
got, you know, some of theMexican combined with some of
(07:06):
the, you know, the Americanfood, meaning that there's quite
an interesting mixture of foodoptions available. We went there
because they have a nationalpark near there. Are you aware
of this national park? Michael?
No, I'm not. Well, you're gonnatell me. So they have the
Saguaro National Park. Do youknow what a Serato is? No, God,
Michael Moran (07:26):
what is that?
Julian Bishop (07:27):
So it's a very tall cactus. Alright. You've
probably seen them in cowboymovies, which were sent in
Monument Valley.
Michael Moran (07:35):
Is it a traditional three? Yeah, the
three pawn ones? Yes. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (07:40):
They're called Sawako. Or spell spelled sh e u
Aaro.
Michael Moran (07:46):
And, you know, Julian, I like my yoga, there is
a cactus poster, that yoga,isn't that?
Julian Bishop (07:51):
Oh, that's right.
Despite what you've seen incowboy movies, the suara can
only grow in the Sonoran Desert,it's the only place they grow on
the planet. So you would haveseen them in movies where they
were in Monument Valley, whichis not part of that desert.
Those were cardboard cutouts,which they put into the movie
because, you know, thoseparticular characters look
(08:13):
fantastic. And they're veryinteresting characters. Because,
you know, after about 10 or 20years of life, they're about an
inch tall. And they take areally a very long time, indeed,
to grow to, you know, to theheights that they do. I think
some of them get can get toabout 50 feet tall, you know,
almost 20 meters tall, most ofthat growing between 20 years
(08:36):
and on 100 years. So we went tothe Sahara National Park. We did
a couple of hikes there. We dida nighttime hike with a ranger
and then we did a couple of dayhikes as well. And that is in a
very pretty place. Lots ofinteresting foreigner as well.
The healer monster. Have youheard of the healer monster?
(08:57):
Michael?
Michael Moran (08:59):
No, no, not Julie, who's this is definitely
one of those places where you'regoing to tell me all things I
don't know. So what's the healermonster?
Julian Bishop (09:07):
Basically a large lizard, right poisonous lizard,
don't eat it more venomous Ithink to animals rather than the
denser humans. Rattlesnake.
Viewer will likely see arattlesnake if you're if you're
hiking, coyotes, obviously BobCats to a whole feast of things
for your for your eyes. And thebest time to go well, depending
(09:29):
on the altitude because theSonoran Desert is, you know, is
a mountainous desert. Sodepending on exactly what your
altitude is, the best time to gois around about the April May
timeframe because that's whencactus is flower. You see all
these sort of beautiful flowerscoming out of these of these
prickly things. I'd stronglyrecommend the Sawara National
(09:53):
Park
Michael Moran (09:56):
and before you move on, Julian, going back to
the cactus What is so specialabout the presuming the ground
or the climate? The that meansit's only grow growing in that
locality do we know it's
Julian Bishop (10:10):
connected with the heat and the altitude, okay,
those combination of those twofactors, you need both of those
factors in order to grow thisthing. And they're very
prevalent. I mean, you know,there's not one or two there,
there are 1000s upon 1000s ofthem. They are magnificent. And
they're also also veryinteresting of the dead Sawara.
(10:31):
After about a couple of 100years, they die off for a range
of reasons. And then you get askeleton of a Sawara cactus,
which is an interesting site aswell. So as I said, earlier, on,
we went when I heard there was aLinda McCartney exhibition I,
you know, had to go along, wewent along to the University of
(10:52):
Arizona, to view her exhibition,and actually daughter number to
apply to go to the University ofArizona, but never visited it.
So she applied and then justdecided to go somewhere else.
And they even offered her a freeride to go to their university.
But she chose not to go there,which is a pity, because I think
(11:13):
actually, that Tucson is veryinteresting city. Now, I
certainly would go back again,and it would have been fun to
visit her on a regular basisthere not only for its 350 days
of sunshine, but you know,because there's a whole range of
stuff going on there. So we wentto the Tucson Museum of Art,
which is part of the university.
We went to, I think you willlike this, that the Pima Air and
(11:35):
Space Museum Oh, yes. Yeah, thatis the world's largest Air and
Space Museum. They have 300planes, including space
shuttles, and, you know, a wholerange of military, commercial
and private planes. Have youheard of the aircraft, Boneyard.
So the aircraft,
Michael Moran (11:57):
this, this is the where they are normally
associated with downturns in airtraffic or passenger numbers,
though they park them in thedesert for a period of time. And
of course, when they've donetheir flying hours, as opposed
to completely scrapping them,they put them into the desert,
because they don't last in thedesert. And then they sort of
(12:18):
take parts off them, is thatcorrect? That's
Julian Bishop (12:21):
right. So most of these boneyards are, you can't
you can see from the side of theroad, but you're not allowed to
visit their security issues. Butyou can see them either from the
air or what driving along theroad 1000s upon 1000s of planes,
which are no longer in service.
And they remain out of service,unless there's some sort of big
war or something like that, whenthey usually then go and raid
(12:43):
these planes to get them backinto service when they need lots
of extra planes. So they parkthem in the desert, because they
don't deteriorate in the desert.
That, of course, is the reasonwhy they've got an Air and Space
Museum. That was it was anexcellent museum, you know, we
saw Air Force ones and you know,there's a whole range of things
(13:06):
and you can look around some ofthe planes you can go into
others, you know, just get anidea of the size. And you see
really a history of avian or ifbionics strongly recommend that
you've got any interest at allin, in aircraft, like many
cities, they've got a botanicalgarden, and that obviously is
you know, it's going to beconcentrating on sort of desert
(13:30):
plants because you know, thispart of Arizona is very, is has
a lot of deserts. We didn't gobut Tucson has a famous rodeo as
well. Another key site issomething called a mission, sans
RVA del bark, which is an 18thcentury Spanish church, this
part of America before theUnited States took this part of
(13:53):
America over this was part ofSpain. So you know, so lots of
the housing is Spanish andNative American influence. And
in fact, that's one of thethings Lorna and I were talking
about this yesterday, and Isaid, Well, what do you remember
and the things you remember mostabout the city was driving
around some of the localneighborhoods, pretty places,
(14:13):
you know, you know, nice,beautiful houses.
Michael Moran (14:15):
Is it a safe city?
Julian Bishop (14:18):
I think that it has its moments, from what I
could tell from driving around.
It appeared to be mostly safe.
We stayed, you know, fairly neardowntown in the old area. It
appeared to be safe ish, but Ithink it does have its habits
moments obviously being so closeto Mexico, I think there is
(14:42):
there is some sort of cartelactivity, but we didn't see any
of that. We had a car we just wedrove from from place to place.
It is quite a large likePhoenix. It's quite a large
city. You know, it's not easynecessarily to get from one
place to the other. You Then youmight have a half an hour drive
between each one. Now
Michael Moran (15:03):
far from the border, is it
Julian Bishop (15:05):
50 miles? 5060 miles? I think.
Michael Moran (15:07):
Yeah, I think I read at some point that the,
there was a movement in theborder. And sort of, I don't
know whether it was a movementto the south. And to some months
ago, as a result of the the sortof pushing back the Mexican
border,
Julian Bishop (15:24):
the city or the older parts of the city had been
there, before the United Statestook over that part of the
territory, I would say it'squite different from any other
city that I can think of in theUS, I can't think of anything,
you know, some of the cities,there are some similarities. But
this is one of them a little bitlike San Francisco, or let's
(15:46):
say, New York, which is actuallyquite notably different. You
know, you wouldn't confuse itwith with other places. Okay.
And Arizona, of course, is oneof the great states to travel
in, because it's got so manynatural parks, and, you know,
fantastic wonders. I think mostpeople never get that far south
(16:06):
in the States, but it is, in myview, it's got a lot to
recommend it.
Michael Moran (16:12):
So you're gonna give me a school.
Julian Bishop (16:14):
I'm gonna give it a score. And I was say, it's a
three or a four, you know, somaybe a 3.5 to five is unlikely
to be a city that is on the wayto anywhere, but it's a city
that I would happily travel backto. And, you know, go and go
visit a bit more to see what Imissed last time.
Michael Moran (16:33):
So thumbs up from Julian?
In the episode, Julian, we did.
We went to St. Louis, you gaveLouis St. Louis, St. Louis,
depending on whether you'reFrench or American anyway, okay.
Julian Bishop (17:02):
And I'm American, and you're not French. Let's
call it San Luis,
Michael Moran (17:06):
you gave the trailer for the Lewis and Clark
expedition. And now I have tosay, and the couple of things
that when I was reading my SIRhistory of America, as as sort
of giving myself a betterbackground, be more informed.
The history books make a bigthing about this expedition. I
don't think you're going to makea big thing about it. The
(17:28):
transversing of getting from oneside to the side of America. And
what I find a little strangeabout it, because we're going to
go across America. Well,actually, they go north
northwest. No, really, theydon't go west, I thought they
would do they go a hell of a waynorth in order to get through
the continental divide. So isn'ta big thing was a different way
(17:51):
they could get to where theywent to, as opposed to this
trudging north. And by the way,the magnitude of how long it
took them to get there and getback was phenomenal. And my
other misconception was, when Iwent in the book, I took these
two guys doing it. Actually,when I did the research this
program is an army of people canbe with them. There are so so
(18:12):
yeah, wasn't quite as I thoughtit had been sold. So first of
all, why is it a big thing?
Julian Bishop (18:17):
You had lots of questions in there. And I'm
going to forget to answer someof them. I'll tell you that you
get to the west coast withoutgoing across America the way
they did? And the answer is yes.
But traditionally, what you hadto do is you had to go via ship,
and you had to go via SouthAmerica. So that wasn't easy,
either. Even in the gold rush inCalifornia, in the 1850s, even
(18:40):
then, it was incrediblydifficult to get across the
United States. And thealternative was to get on a boat
from the East Coast, sail allthe way down to Patagonia, all
the way back up on the chillyside, and then get to America
that way, which was also notquick and not cheap. At the time
(19:01):
they did it. It was a big thing.
But immediately afterwards, itwas forgotten. It was forgotten
for almost 100 years. Gosh, thatwill make your question about
how big a thing it was. And thenit became a big thing again, I
wrote about it, you know, in thefirst book, it's a really
fascinating period of Americanhistory. And I think it will
(19:23):
make a fantastic film or TVseries. This wasn't an easy
undertaking that theseroundabout 50 People took. So
what what do you know about whythey did it, Michael?
Michael Moran (19:36):
Well, my understanding is it was also
driven by Thomas Jefferson andthe need to develop commerce. So
again, wasn't when I really whenyou said drishti and look at
these sorts of these explorers,you know, I like I'm going to
quote Captain Kirk kick.
Starship Enterprise normally useexpect explorers to go boldly
and find new people and newlands. Hank, appreciate it. This
(19:59):
was much more driven bycommercial reality, the view
that by opening up the West,you're going to new markets and
develop agriculture. Am I rightabout that? Sort
Julian Bishop (20:12):
of, let's start with the year. So Thomas
Jefferson, indeed was thepresident who wanted this to
happen. He was a very well readperson of his time, he had the
largest library in the whole ofAmerica, which actually is the
foundation of the Library ofCongress, which we saw last week
(20:34):
when we're gonna, which Lornaand I were in Washington, DC
last week. So we went to see theLibrary of Congress. So he had
these 1000s of books aboutAmerica. And he was probably the
best read person on the entirecontent, about, you know, what
the whole of the continent lookslike. However, he in line with
(20:55):
everyone else was very ignorantwith what was on the West Coast.
His perception was that therewould be woolly mammoths, huge
woolly mammoths. There, therewill be 10 foot mega Lonex,
lions, and all sorts of unknowndangerous species that were
waiting feet, people on thewest, because it was, you know,
(21:16):
almost nobody had traveled thereother than the native tribes
that were, you know, that wereliving there. So it was really
unknown. And he had thisambition that he wanted the
United States to control fromsea to shining sea, the whole of
the northern North Americacontinent. And, of course, in
(21:40):
1803, you're going to when hestarted this exhibition, what he
was trying to do, he's he wastrying to document the West
Coast, so that they could claimthe west coast as United States
territory. So there was aconcept at the time that if you
documented your presence in theregion, that documentation
(22:03):
counted towards whether thatterritory belong to you or not.
So that is what he asked Lewisand Clark to do to do this
exhibition. He wanted them todocument everything that they
saw, that was the first thingthat he wanted to do. And the
second thing he asked them todo, they knew that there was the
Missouri River, and they knewthere was the Columbia River.
(22:24):
And they believe there was alink between the two, to use
those rivers to navigate an easypassage way over to the West
Coast.
Michael Moran (22:33):
Okay, so let me ask a couple questions. I'm
assuming though, they had someidea as to what was on the West
Coast, because as you rightlysaid, they've been able to sail
round to the west coast for sometime. So they they can know
what's on the West Coast.
Basically, it was a bit in themiddle that they were ignorant
of, would that be fair? Yes,
Julian Bishop (22:56):
it would be because the Spanish because that
that time, so we're talking, youknow, the turn the beginning of
the 19th century. This isbefore, you know, the Louisiana
Purchase a lot of stuff in themiddle, the west coast was
notionally owned by the Spanish,or most of it was owned by the
Spanish. And they, you know,using their ships, they had
(23:20):
created a number of differentcommunities on the coast, but I
don't think they'd gone very farin this journey was 4000 miles.
It's quite a long journey ofthings, which are mostly
unexplored, took them 500 daysof travel to do this, to do this
4000 miles. Okay. You know, thiswas an extremely dangerous
(23:43):
journey, and one which was wasunknown, even to the person who
was best read about America, inthe United States at the time.
Michael Moran (23:52):
Okay. So do you know what influenced Mr.
Jefferson's desire to do tonavigate the the new lands?
Julian Bishop (24:00):
His main target was that that United States will
control the whole of the NorthAmerican continent and
Michael Moran (24:05):
it would pretty quickly where did he get that
idea from? 1784 Julian, should Ihave this MC at Flo
Julian Bishop (24:15):
was a year after the signing of the Treaty of
Paris. What else?
Michael Moran (24:20):
What James Cook get din James Cook discovered
Australia? And indeed, right? Weknow the history of of Cook. He
was the man who mapped thelands. And I'm told by my
research, that was one of thethings that Jefferson took his
inspiration from finding peoplewho could I say map or navigate.
So they had an accurate pictureof what the landscape looked
(24:43):
like, both in terms oftopography and animals and
vegetation. And that's what ofcourse Cook had done. When he
done that famous voyage in theendeavor. Went my Tahiti then
into New Zealand, but thenfamously discovered us Roja,
Julian Bishop (25:00):
and he later of course, perished. It is murdered
in Hawaii. He did.
Michael Moran (25:05):
He did. But going back to my thoughts about my
vision of explorers was thisintrepid bunch of people going
boldly to where nobody had beenbefore. That was my sort of
initial take on Lewis and Clark.
And I
Julian Bishop (25:19):
think you could definitely, I mean, I think they
are exceptionally brave to braveindividuals and the people they
went with were also brave. Butthey were going into the
unknown. So let's talk aboutLewis and Clark. Do you know who
Lewis and Clark were Michael?
Michael Moran (25:35):
I don't know. No, you might Enlighten me. I both
were in the army. Well, yeah, Iwas one was a captain and one
was a lieutenant. I think wewere that. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (25:44):
So it's Captain Meriwether Lewis. Yeah. And he
was Jefferson's privatesecretary. He was 28 years old.
He was an outdoorsman. He hadsome expertise in science, and
Native Americans. And he wasvery much self taught largely
through Jefferson's own library.
He was Jefferson's privatesecretary, Jefferson asked him
(26:05):
to leave the exhibition. AndLewis said, I'm only going to do
it if we can bring my friendalone as a joint leader, and his
name was Lieutenant WilliamClark,
Michael Moran (26:17):
I think was a second lieutenant wasn't me. It
wasn't even a first lieutenant.
It was a second.
Julian Bishop (26:21):
That's right. I didn't know that. Yeah. So he
was, but he was an adventurer.
And he came from a very longline and a military family with,
you know, who had all served inthe military. And they put to
get team together a 43 people todo this job. Yeah. Most of those
people came from the US Army. Sothey brought along some other
(26:44):
people. Do you know who thoseother people were my con?
Michael Moran (26:48):
No doubt, just checking with us occasionally,
because one of our new one gotkilled didn t early on?
Julian Bishop (26:54):
Yeah, there was one person who got killed, but
let's not spoil that surprise.
So they brought along Louis'sdog called Seaman who was a
black Newfoundland dog. Theyhired a French Canadian fur
trader called to Sasha Bernal,he brought along his two wives,
depending on which source youyou trust, these wives were
(27:17):
either bought by him, or one ina poker game. And so the first
wife was called the otter woman,who I don't believe came on the
exhibition because she'smentioned right at the
beginning, and their copiousnotes that they wrote. They
wrote notes of their journey, amillion words, they wrote on
(27:39):
their journey.
Michael Moran (27:42):
So even more than your new book. Yeah, that's
Julian Bishop (27:45):
like, no, stop, stop. We got to have people
read. So the altar woman was hisfirst wife. But it's believed
that she didn't go on theexhibition. And then there was
his second wife, who was calledSakic aware, had you have you
heard of Sakha? Well, no. Noother woman has met has as many
(28:07):
statues, as as she does inAmerica. So she is very famed,
she was 15 years old. And shewas a show Sean, Indian Native
American, who was kidnapped byanother tribe, when she was
about eight or nine. So she wasinstrumental in their safe
(28:30):
passage through to the otherside, because she spoke a number
of different Native Americanlanguages. And she also brought
along with her, somebody who wasvery important, and that was she
was pregnant. And then halfwaythrough the journey, she gave
birth to her child, the presenceof this child convinced many of
(28:52):
the Native American tribes thatthis exhibition came in peace.
If you were waging war, whywould you bring an infant along
with you? So she was, she wasinstrumental, and arguably, she
is the most famous person on theexhibition. There was a another
person who's quoted lot who wasYork, and he was the enslaved
(29:15):
boy ahead friends of, of WilliamClark. So he came along, he was
quite a sight to the NativeAmerican tribes, they, you know,
he was a very tall gentleman,and he would have very dark
skinned and they had never seenanyone who looked like that
before. So they treated him veryreverentially. And he was very
(29:36):
popular. They used to offer uptheir their wives who would
spend the night with Yorkthroughout their journey. He was
very popular because of hisphysique. He was highly
muscular. So that was the groupand as you say, that they
experienced the death fairlyearly on somebody. They weren't
(29:58):
really doctors at the time.
We're at Lewis and Clark, bothtrains, using the books of
Jefferson, on the sort of latestmedical things that were
available at the time, when theman dies, and I forgotten his
name,
Michael Moran (30:12):
I can tell you, it's Charles Floyd. And he died
of appendicitis didn't he?
Julian Bishop (30:18):
He died of appendicitis they weren't able
to treat appendicitis as you canimagine. And the place where he
died, is named after him. It's acreek named after him now, and
that was fairly early on in thejourney. And it's a plot
spoiler. Despite the immensedanger, they all went through
all of the others returns intact safe. And I
Michael Moran (30:39):
tried to work out why I had this misguided view as
it happened, sort of that it wastwo guys doing this training on
their own. I, I'm gonna say Ithink because every time you see
an illustration, you just seethe to looking at some great
visarjan like that. They've goneacross the continental divide,
and they're looking forward. Butof course, it doesn't show the
(31:00):
43 people behind them, or 41.
Julian Bishop (31:06):
In order to get to the other side, they had to
cross through the territory of70 Native Americans, right? Yes.
So you're talking, you know, ineach one, you know, they came in
peace, they came as explorers,but in each one, they were
handing out gifts, you know,peace and friendship metals made
of silver, each meeting was wasextremely convoluted. So in
(31:30):
their party, they had Englishpeople, you know, who were
English speaking people, Lewisand Clark, who were talking to
somebody who could speak French,who then was translating it into
military, which is, which is theNative American language into
(31:51):
Sean, and then into NES NESpass, or NES per se, which is
the the French word for thelanguage of, of many of the
Native American tribes. So it'sa very convoluted process of
actually communicating withthese various tribes. Lewis and
Clark, you know, we're not greatlinguists,
Michael Moran (32:11):
nothing was changes them.
Julian Bishop (32:14):
Oh, well, maybe some people speak languages, and
it was very dangerous. Do youknow what they spent a third of
their money on? Michael?
Michael Moran (32:20):
No, no idea hearing for the trip. Preparing
for the trip. Got this was inpreparation. Yes.
Julian Bishop (32:28):
What what do you think they spent the money?
Food? No, although they didobviously spent a lot of money
on food. And they also capturedtheir own food and, but a third
of their money they spent onmalaria protection. So malaria
was very prevalent. They triedto protect themselves against
these mosquitoes by smotheringthemselves with pigs lard, all
(32:52):
over their body. How
Michael Moran (32:53):
do they know to expect that given the not been
there? When I say not
Julian Bishop (32:57):
been there, some people had been some of the way
Yes, nobody would be in thehallway. Yeah. Okay. So they
knew enough about some of thesetribes, and they knew enough
from other explorers who've madesome journeys, that mosquitoes
were an issue in their notes,million words of notes. They
talk regularly about thediseases that picking up and,
(33:22):
and the running of the bowels,which was, you know, which was,
you know, a hazardous, you know,just went with the territory.
Now, Michael, they also spent alot of their money or exchanged
a lot of their food in exchangefor sexual favors with the
native tribes. And they knewenough to take along some
(33:46):
treatment, and which would cureor manage the STDs that they
were picking up on the way.
Okay, so do you know how theyare able to trace the one of the
ways they're able to trace theirjourney
Michael Moran (34:00):
to spread a venereal disease? Well,
Julian Bishop (34:03):
that would be brilliant. But no, that's not
the way that it's actuallythrough the treatment of veneer
or disease. Okay, at the time,the main treatment was mercury,
which is of course, we now know,mercury to be poisonous to
humans. They were using mercuryas a way of treating their STDs.
And because mercury never, youcan't ever get rid of it. It's
(34:25):
something which always staysthere. They can trace where
their journey went throughMercury deposits left by the
latrines of where they went,coach. Which I think is kind of
interesting. Yeah.
Michael Moran (34:40):
I did reference that I know the, the, the voyage
of James Cook, again, hadsimilar issues with malaria, and
the relationships with thelocals and all the things that
go with that. They bribed thenatives with nails, nails, they
took lots of nails. To them, andthey gave natives nails in
(35:02):
return for sexual favors. Right?
What were Lewis and Clark givingthe natives in return for sexual
favors, foodstuffs,
Julian Bishop (35:09):
the silver metals. If you watch the the US
version of Antiques Roadshowroadshow, you'll see these the
silver metals piece metals cameup fairly frequently on those
shows, and the presence of Yorkand you know, in a baby, you
know, I think they've would havebeen, although was very
dangerous for these explorers. Ithink a lot of these Native
(35:31):
American tribes were veryinterested in these new people
who are traveling through theirlands. You know, there was a
certain amount of novelty intheir appearance. And they had
these things that they'd neverseen before. Yeah, you know,
different types of food,different types of, you know,
things that they brought along,lots of things they brought
(35:51):
along, were to exchange forfood. And then, of course, they
would hunt. Yeah, semen, theLouis's dog. He was a fantastic
Hunter.
Michael Moran (36:04):
Virginia took guns with them, didn't they?
muskets, they
Julian Bishop (36:08):
definitely did take guns with them. Because
once they got to the other side,so they when they get went to
the other side, which was inOregon, they then wintered in
Oregon before before comingback. So they just spent just
over a year getting there.
They'd spent the first winter Ithink, in South Dakota, and then
the second winter they spent inOregon. And then when it got
(36:28):
warm again, and they were makingthe return journey, one of them
was shot there. And he was shotby one of the people on the team
Lewis was shot, one of theexhibition party had confused
him for an ALC Lewis Scott shot.
So and then they made the returnjourney, which actually was much
(36:51):
more perilous seem and the dogwas dog napped. And they had to
use all their negotiation skillsto get him back. One point they
took slightly different routesor routes, as Americans would
call them. I think, if anythingmore perilous on the way back.
Well, I was gonna
Michael Moran (37:08):
ask you about that. So I have them leaving on
the 14th of May 1804. From campDuBois in Illinois. Yeah. Yeah.
And I have them getting on thePacific Ocean on the seventh of
November 1805. Okay, yes. Butthey got back on the 23rd of
March 1806. So they certainlymoved on to move on the way
(37:31):
back, didn't they compared tothe what? Many months, you tend
to get their major fall toNovember 1805? Yeah,
Julian Bishop (37:40):
they did winter, I think in South Dakota, you
know, to start with. And thensecondly, remember, they had
been mapping the territories,that overall plan as it was, was
defined, they understood thatthere was a way that you could
use the Missouri River and theColumbia River, which are two
great rivers in America, andthat they were fairly proximate
(38:03):
to each other, and they coulduse these rivers to easily, you
know, say, taken boats with themto easily, you know, get down
these rivets. Now, for thosepeople have been to Montana, of
course, we now know these riversto be hundreds of miles apart.
So you know, not one or twomiles that you're carrying a
(38:24):
boat, but 100 miles, that's 100miles over Montana, which means
mountains. So you're talkingabout navigating big mountain
regions carrying a boat on theway back. Because of their maps,
they knew where the rivers wentto. So they were was the first
time around. They had to ask fordirections. Where's this big
(38:46):
river? Second time around whenthey knew where the river was?
So I think it was a lot easierfor them because they knew the
way Yeah.
Michael Moran (38:53):
And my other thought about their achievement,
which I think does stand outcompared to other explorers of
the same time and I'm talkingkind of cook as they're taking
muskets. They seem to shoot lotsof the natives, unless it and
this exhibition, they clearlydid very well, because they met
a whole host of different Indiantribes, didn't they? And yet no
(39:16):
point there there appear to beno disputes, or ended in
bloodshed. Well, I
Julian Bishop (39:24):
think there were some disputes. I mean, I think
the Sioux Indians were, youknow, were relatively, you know,
they weren't particularlyfriendly, and rightly so, as it
turned out. There was obviouslysomething about Lewis and Clark,
although they were in the USmilitary, you know, they
genuinely did go, or least theywere able to feign a peaceful
demeanor to the people they met.
Of course, the irony of it isalthough Sakic away I was, you
(39:48):
know, obviously, a key person inhistory and, you know, as a
Native American herself, that itwas her presence which
ultimately led to have, you knowall of the Native American
tribes being overpowered byUnited States in the 19th
century. So there is an ironythat, you know, she's celebrated
for helping the United Statesgain control over the over the
(40:12):
continent. But she was alsoresponsible, not firsthand, but
indirectly responsible for, forthe demise of these tribes.
There are huge numbers offantastic stories. These are
clearly very brave people. Thereis apparently a movie or TV
series being made with BradPitt's and Tom Hanks about their
(40:35):
journeys. And it would make avery good story because there
are so many sort of componentparts to it. And it's got a nice
doc. Okay,
Michael Moran (40:45):
and come back to your opening statement. How come
fell out of people's thinking,having taken place over 100
years, and then come back intofolklore because my my
understanding is obviously andin fact that making a movie on
it tells you that you know,Lewis and Clark, you know, our
Lord, who was the fact that theythey opened up America to be a,
(41:07):
you know, a much bigger placeand to were instrumental in the
expansion that took placethereafter, given this work.
Julian Bishop (41:15):
So once they got back, they did come back to a
hero's welcome. But they werevery quickly forgotten after
that. The diaries they hadwritten, were poor, poorly
constructed, they were terriblespellers. Both of them were
terrible spellers, they, youknow, even people's names they
misspelled in 20 different wayswithin these documents. Most of
(41:38):
their handwriting is veryillegible. So although they came
back to a hero's welcome, theirjourneys were fairly quickly
forgotten. They weren'tremembered, until they decided
on the 100th anniversary oftheir journey, they decided to
do one of these world fairs atPortland, Oregon, to celebrate
(42:00):
100 years of Lewis and Clark.
And that led to you know, peopleactually really translating
their diaries and led to a greatdeal of interest in their
journeys. But for most of the19th century, well, it's
probably true to say theyweren't even a footnote in the
history of American history,because their journey had been
entirely almost entirelyforgotten. What happened to them
(42:22):
when they came back. So Louis in1809, he suffered from
depression. He was in a tavernand he shot himself, but he
didn't kill himself. And thenhaving failed to kill himself,
he then shot himself againremoving most of his face and a
half of his head, didn't even dothat correctly. And he took
another 24 hours to die andextreme pen. He didn't have a
(42:44):
good end. Sakic aware she diedin 1812, she'd had a number of
children by them. And when shedied, Clark took responsibility
for her children. And heactually became governor of the
Missouri territory, which is avery large territory in 1813.
(43:06):
You know, he continued to be akey American in the West York,
he was freed by Clark and wenton to live a, you know,
reasonably fruitful life. Two ofthem died fairly quickly. And
only one of them really went onto any sort of degree of fame
after that,
Michael Moran (43:26):
in the news on the dog. You said he was
kidnapped? Yes,
Julian Bishop (43:30):
semen died, as he said, doggy he was, but I think
he died naturally, you know, itwas, you know, he didn't die of
any, you know, having eaten abad possum or something. hero's
welcome. And then really largelyforgotten. But of course, now
they are seen as the equivalentsof, let's say, Neil Armstrong,
(43:52):
you know, as really greatAmerican explorers. And I think,
if you think about, we can allnow drive across the United
States, or we can fly across theUnited States, we don't realize
that this was completelyuncharted territory. They
believed that there were hugelions and mammoths in that
territory, they just had no ideawhat was there. So going into
(44:15):
that unknown, takes degree ofbravery, I think.
Michael Moran (44:19):
And Jefferson's original desire to so open up
the, I would say the interiorfor commerce and agricultural
whatever, did that happen? As aresult of this exhibition? I
mean, I get the sense of whatyou're saying they they're
getting back, but after that, itdidn't achieve the objectives,
(44:40):
what they did
Julian Bishop (44:41):
meet their objective and that this is all
now part of the United States.
Yes. How much of it was down totheir exhibition is not clear to
me. Certainly they would haveused their notebooks to say hey,
you know, we have a footprint inthis area. Look at these people.
They did this exhibition, lookat all their notes on all of the
cars they were exploring all thefauna and the flora that, you
know, they, they there was somescience to what they were doing.
(45:03):
They weren't just with theirmachetes blazing a path they
were stopping, they wererecording all of that, that they
saw, they certainly use the datathey collected to say, hey, this
bit is United States, but morelikely that the European, they
got most of this territorybecause the European nations,
(45:24):
you know, this wasn't strategicfor the European nations at the
time. So France, which hadLouisiana Territory, and the
Spanish, which had, you know,the, the West Coast, that just
wasn't top priority for them.
The these areas, they were muchmore interested in fighting wars
in Europe would have this havehappened anyway, maybe. Okay.
(45:49):
But, you know, many of thefounding fathers, their ambition
was to control the whole of thecontinent. And Jefferson, you
know, who I think of is a greatprecedent. You know, certainly
he was very unfriendly towardsNative Americans. You know, he
was one of a long line andpresidents who were plotting
their downfall. And while he mayhave had good instincts about
(46:12):
enslaved people, he wasobviously a very well read,
educated, intelligent man. Youknow, I think his legacy is
somewhat tainted by his by hisantipathy and opposition to
Native American tribes. And
Michael Moran (46:27):
I'm glad you raised that, because I was going
to say, you're obviously I'vereferenced now a number of
occasions, British explorers?
Well, I think today, theirreputation is colonialists sort
of, you know, this desire to saythis as part of the British
Empire or ditto the, the theFrench or the Dutch. Now, going
to bad press, you know, wouldyou say the same is true of
(46:49):
Lewis and Clark, and that wasone of the object objectives or,
you know, particularly, I thinkyou've alluded to it, not them,
but ultimately, it led to a verysignificant demise of the native
Indian population, and the waythey were treated on the
confiscation of lands, etc.
Julian Bishop (47:10):
Yeah, because by the end of the 19th century, the
Native American population hadfallen to about a quarter of a
million people. Yeah, so you'retalking about the 19th century
is a time of annihilation ofYeah, you know, a whole bunch of
ethnic groups, you know, withinthat Native population. So Lewis
and Clark in general, I think,escaped most of the worst, that
(47:33):
they're probably regarded fairlyhighly. I mean, they're really
porns, the people who have comein for most of the IRA, the
politicians who clearly had agoal, which, you know, which
completely discounted the nativepeople lived in those lands. So
those politicians, you know,that probably wasn't that long
ago that President AndrewJackson was revered as a great
(47:57):
American president. But now heis, you know, he's regarded very
poorly indeed, because of theTrail of Tears and the other
things that he did with withNative American population in
100 years time, 200 years time,what we do today in our lives
will be construed verynegatively. Yeah, we don't know
(48:18):
quite how, but people will livea different life, and they will
have a different set of values.
At that time. They didn't valueNative American people. And they
were, you know, they werecolonialists. That's the way
their minds worked. Yeah.
judging them on the basis oftoday's you know, what's
regardless as acceptablebehavior today is not really
(48:40):
fair. And of course, they'realways going to suffer because
they didn't live in today'stimes. Yeah. Yeah. With
Jefferson in particular. He wasalways one of the founding
fathers, which was most antislavery. And he did a number of
very important things to createnew states, which were not slave
(49:00):
states ended up being veryinstrumental in, in abolishing
slavery. When it comes to NativeAmericans. There's no positive
spin you can put on it. Yeah, sothat's Lewis and Clark, I would
say great American explorers.
And reminding us of, of howyoung the country of United
States is. In historical terms,this isn't long at all. These
(49:22):
are areas which are completelyundiscovered, you know, in the
in the first part of the 19thcentury.
Michael Moran (49:32):
And if you put them on a platform of great
explorers, you would certainlyhave them very much your honor.
Power with, let's say with JamesScott. Yeah. So they sort of,
yeah,
Julian Bishop (49:43):
all of them have got to be brave to do yes,
things they are going into theunknown. They've no, I mean,
they're probably likelihood thatthey won't come back.
Michael Moran (49:52):
Full louder, you could say, but nevertheless,
it's very brief people. Yes.
Yeah. At the outset, we said Tothe next episode will be a
trailer for Julian's new book awrite riveting read as they say,
Are we there yet? And next timeI'm going to be interviewing
Julian hopefully having read thebook beforehand.
Julian Bishop (50:15):
Excellent. Well, I look forward to reading the
book.
Michael Moran (50:17):
I look forward to really Julian and so it's
goodbye for me and it's goodbyefrom him.
Unknown (50:46):
My
Julian Bishop (50:52):
mind
Welcome to Episode 52 of an American
Journey. This week, of course,we're going to look at Tucson,
Arizona place I've not been toso eagerly looking forward to
what you have to say. And thenwe're going to discuss the
explorers extraordinaire, Lewisand Clark. I was thinking other
(00:37):
names that I was going to puttogether, Julie, but Lewis and
Clark, we're going to talkabout, but let's, before we talk
about Tucson, are we there yet?
Julian? We
Julian Bishop (00:46):
certainly are. My book is written, it's edited.
It's being published on the 27thof November.
Michael Moran (00:54):
Now you please remember chat, GBT did describe
you as a journalist, and I knowyour LinkedIn says you will
offer so the proof of thepudding. Julian is in the
reading, you will
Julian Bishop (01:05):
shortly be getting a copy. And we're
actually going to do a podcastwhere you're going to interview
me about the book, but you haveto read the book first.
Michael Moran (01:14):
And Julie's already told me he's got 135,000
words, and no big pictures. Soit could well be a challenge.
Yeah, yeah. But
Julian Bishop (01:22):
let's not mention to everyone, it's 135,000 words,
because that is not a sellingpoint. Let's just talk about the
good things that it's funny. Andit's interesting, you're gonna
learn lots. Yeah, well,
Michael Moran (01:34):
loads of things that's got lots of words,
Julian, that's not a lot. So.
And that was about the journey.
In fact, it was I have the wholesuspicion. Don't they use the
phrase? Are we there yet?
Julian Bishop (01:45):
But you know, I think they might, I mean, it's
been 50 years, it's almost 50years since I've read Lord of
the Rings. But it's not likeLord of the Rings in any way.
Michael Moran (01:55):
And I think the subtitle to the Hobbit was
there, and then we're backagain, also like that.
Julian Bishop (02:00):
I think that's right there and they're back
again. But this is are we thereyet, which has a different
connotation, different set ofmeanings.
Michael Moran (02:08):
And I'm looking forward to reading it. So shall
we start talking about Tucson?
And Julian? You normally mock meon my pronounciation of words
and places? Don't you? Rememberthe last episode we're talking
about? St. Louis, and we've beenSt. Louis and all that nonsense.
Why is it not called Tuckson? Asopposed to Tucson? When it's
spelled t you see? So when?
Julian Bishop (02:32):
Do you know? I have no idea. I'm sorry to
express my ignorance straightfrom the get go. But not a clue.
Although Did you see theexcellence Beatles documentary
get back the nine hour? I did.
Jackson, actually, you know,going for Fred? Yeah. Peter
Jackson, who did the Hobbit andwho did the Lord of the Rings.
(02:54):
He produced the nine hourdocumentary on the Beatles
making. Let it be an Abbey Road.
And in that documentary, I don'tknow if you remember, we saw
their marvelous thing of PaulMcCartney writing get back. And
he was sort of struggling withthis bass guitar. And then the
words came, and he came up withthis words from Tucson, Arizona.
(03:18):
And John Lennon said it's Tucsonin Arizona. And Paul said, yeah,
yeah, it is. Do you know whyPaul knew that Tucson was in
Arizona? No, but
Michael Moran (03:29):
you're gonna tell me, Julian. I am. And that
Julian Bishop (03:31):
is because that is where Linda McCartney, his
wife studied. She did a degreein photography at the University
of Arizona in Tucson because shevery much liked Tucson, and the
McCartney's, they bought a housethere are a ranch there and they
still have a ranch there. Gosh.
And while we were in Tucson, wewent to see a Linda McCartney
(03:52):
exhibition of her photographs,an excellent exhibition. It was
too before she met Paul, she wasa celebrity photographer. And
she was a very famedphotographer of of all of the
rock bands of that age. So yougot all these fantastic photos
of these famous rock stars attheir leisure, including,
(04:13):
obviously, Paul McCartney andthe rest of the Beatles.
Michael Moran (04:18):
And wasn't she also related to the Kodak family
and my writing thinking? You
Julian Bishop (04:22):
are not writing thinking? That is a myth is it
was the rumor at the time thatshe was massively rich because
she was related to the Kodakfamily. Actually, her father was
an East Coast New York lawyercalled Eastman. Right? So
Eastman Kodak, which is whypeople got along and the threat,
but actually her father was Imean, he was well to do he was,
(04:45):
you know, he was the top lawyeryet not related to the Kodak
family in any way. Okay,
Michael Moran (04:50):
so when did you go to Tucson? We went earlier
this year.
Julian Bishop (04:54):
In May I think it was. What do you know about
Tucson apart from fat you don'tknow why it's pronounce So that
way, I know
Michael Moran (05:01):
two facts. I'm surprised, Julian, you haven't
already addressed one with mebecause there's cause it's got
something to do with railways. Iunderstand that Frank Stillwell
who killed Morgan Ed, who Ipresume was a relative of the
famous white it was killed attwo sewn railway station by I
(05:25):
presume why tip tracking himdown? Oh, so that was first
thing. And the second thing is,oh, by the way, about 4% of the
population in Tucson areChinese. And their legacy is
they helped build a railway inTucson. Okay. Okay. And my last
one, which I have to relate toJones, we know Jones a big fan
(05:47):
of Art Deco. They have a verynice art deco theater called the
Fox Theater. Right? Did you gothere do
Julian Bishop (05:54):
we did not didn't go to any railway station
either.
Michael Moran (05:59):
I feel the railway station is no longer
there. Well, it does
Julian Bishop (06:03):
have as she was suggesting, with wire turrets
brother, it does have areasonably long history. There
barrio Viejo, too, which is anold neighborhood, they're very
close to where we stayed at thathas been around in continuous
inhabitation for 400 years,which in American terms is very
old. Tucson does have somehistory to it. We're talking
(06:24):
something which is round about50 or so miles from the Mexican
border. It has 350 days ofsunshine every year, Michael.
Michael Moran (06:34):
In fact, I looked yesterday, and the temperature
was 34 degrees, which I thoughtwould be a very nice
temperature, given it was not sonice here in London. So
Julian Bishop (06:44):
it's about half a million people who live in the
metro area there. It's you know,fairly Hispanic, I think there's
sort of kind of an equal numberof, of white people in Hispanic
and there's a good healthymixture of Native Americans as
well. The food is quiteinteresting there because you've
got the some of the NativeAmerican influences and you've
got, you know, some of theMexican combined with some of
(07:06):
the, you know, the Americanfood, meaning that there's quite
an interesting mixture of foodoptions available. We went there
because they have a nationalpark near there. Are you aware
of this national park? Michael?
No, I'm not. Well, you're gonnatell me. So they have the
Saguaro National Park. Do youknow what a Serato is? No, God,
Michael Moran (07:26):
what is that?
Julian Bishop (07:27):
So it's a very tall cactus. Alright. You've
probably seen them in cowboymovies, which were sent in
Monument Valley.
Michael Moran (07:35):
Is it a traditional three? Yeah, the
three pawn ones? Yes. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (07:40):
They're called Sawako. Or spell spelled sh e u
Aaro.
Michael Moran (07:46):
And, you know, Julian, I like my yoga, there is
a cactus poster, that yoga,isn't that?
Julian Bishop (07:51):
Oh, that's right.
Despite what you've seen incowboy movies, the suara can
only grow in the Sonoran Desert,it's the only place they grow on
the planet. So you would haveseen them in movies where they
were in Monument Valley, whichis not part of that desert.
Those were cardboard cutouts,which they put into the movie
because, you know, thoseparticular characters look
(08:13):
fantastic. And they're veryinteresting characters. Because,
you know, after about 10 or 20years of life, they're about an
inch tall. And they take areally a very long time, indeed,
to grow to, you know, to theheights that they do. I think
some of them get can get toabout 50 feet tall, you know,
almost 20 meters tall, most ofthat growing between 20 years
(08:36):
and on 100 years. So we went tothe Sahara National Park. We did
a couple of hikes there. We dida nighttime hike with a ranger
and then we did a couple of dayhikes as well. And that is in a
very pretty place. Lots ofinteresting foreigner as well.
The healer monster. Have youheard of the healer monster?
(08:57):
Michael?
Michael Moran (08:59):
No, no, not Julie, who's this is definitely
one of those places where you'regoing to tell me all things I
don't know. So what's the healermonster?
Julian Bishop (09:07):
Basically a large lizard, right poisonous lizard,
don't eat it more venomous Ithink to animals rather than the
denser humans. Rattlesnake.
Viewer will likely see arattlesnake if you're if you're
hiking, coyotes, obviously BobCats to a whole feast of things
for your for your eyes. And thebest time to go well, depending
(09:29):
on the altitude because theSonoran Desert is, you know, is
a mountainous desert. Sodepending on exactly what your
altitude is, the best time to gois around about the April May
timeframe because that's whencactus is flower. You see all
these sort of beautiful flowerscoming out of these of these
prickly things. I'd stronglyrecommend the Sawara National
(09:53):
Park
Michael Moran (09:56):
and before you move on, Julian, going back to
the cactus What is so specialabout the presuming the ground
or the climate? The that meansit's only grow growing in that
locality do we know it's
Julian Bishop (10:10):
connected with the heat and the altitude, okay,
those combination of those twofactors, you need both of those
factors in order to grow thisthing. And they're very
prevalent. I mean, you know,there's not one or two there,
there are 1000s upon 1000s ofthem. They are magnificent. And
they're also also veryinteresting of the dead Sawara.
(10:31):
After about a couple of 100years, they die off for a range
of reasons. And then you get askeleton of a Sawara cactus,
which is an interesting site aswell. So as I said, earlier, on,
we went when I heard there was aLinda McCartney exhibition I,
you know, had to go along, wewent along to the University of
(10:52):
Arizona, to view her exhibition,and actually daughter number to
apply to go to the University ofArizona, but never visited it.
So she applied and then justdecided to go somewhere else.
And they even offered her a freeride to go to their university.
But she chose not to go there,which is a pity, because I think
(11:13):
actually, that Tucson is veryinteresting city. Now, I
certainly would go back again,and it would have been fun to
visit her on a regular basisthere not only for its 350 days
of sunshine, but you know,because there's a whole range of
stuff going on there. So we wentto the Tucson Museum of Art,
which is part of the university.
We went to, I think you willlike this, that the Pima Air and
(11:35):
Space Museum Oh, yes. Yeah, thatis the world's largest Air and
Space Museum. They have 300planes, including space
shuttles, and, you know, a wholerange of military, commercial
and private planes. Have youheard of the aircraft, Boneyard.
So the aircraft,
Michael Moran (11:57):
this, this is the where they are normally
associated with downturns in airtraffic or passenger numbers,
though they park them in thedesert for a period of time. And
of course, when they've donetheir flying hours, as opposed
to completely scrapping them,they put them into the desert,
because they don't last in thedesert. And then they sort of
(12:18):
take parts off them, is thatcorrect? That's
Julian Bishop (12:21):
right. So most of these boneyards are, you can't
you can see from the side of theroad, but you're not allowed to
visit their security issues. Butyou can see them either from the
air or what driving along theroad 1000s upon 1000s of planes,
which are no longer in service.
And they remain out of service,unless there's some sort of big
war or something like that, whenthey usually then go and raid
(12:43):
these planes to get them backinto service when they need lots
of extra planes. So they parkthem in the desert, because they
don't deteriorate in the desert.
That, of course, is the reasonwhy they've got an Air and Space
Museum. That was it was anexcellent museum, you know, we
saw Air Force ones and you know,there's a whole range of things
(13:06):
and you can look around some ofthe planes you can go into
others, you know, just get anidea of the size. And you see
really a history of avian or ifbionics strongly recommend that
you've got any interest at allin, in aircraft, like many
cities, they've got a botanicalgarden, and that obviously is
you know, it's going to beconcentrating on sort of desert
(13:30):
plants because you know, thispart of Arizona is very, is has
a lot of deserts. We didn't gobut Tucson has a famous rodeo as
well. Another key site issomething called a mission, sans
RVA del bark, which is an 18thcentury Spanish church, this
part of America before theUnited States took this part of
(13:53):
America over this was part ofSpain. So you know, so lots of
the housing is Spanish andNative American influence. And
in fact, that's one of thethings Lorna and I were talking
about this yesterday, and Isaid, Well, what do you remember
and the things you remember mostabout the city was driving
around some of the localneighborhoods, pretty places,
(14:13):
you know, you know, nice,beautiful houses.
Michael Moran (14:15):
Is it a safe city?
Julian Bishop (14:18):
I think that it has its moments, from what I
could tell from driving around.
It appeared to be mostly safe.
We stayed, you know, fairly neardowntown in the old area. It
appeared to be safe ish, but Ithink it does have its habits
moments obviously being so closeto Mexico, I think there is
(14:42):
there is some sort of cartelactivity, but we didn't see any
of that. We had a car we just wedrove from from place to place.
It is quite a large likePhoenix. It's quite a large
city. You know, it's not easynecessarily to get from one
place to the other. You Then youmight have a half an hour drive
between each one. Now
Michael Moran (15:03):
far from the border, is it
Julian Bishop (15:05):
50 miles? 5060 miles? I think.
Michael Moran (15:07):
Yeah, I think I read at some point that the,
there was a movement in theborder. And sort of, I don't
know whether it was a movementto the south. And to some months
ago, as a result of the the sortof pushing back the Mexican
border,
Julian Bishop (15:24):
the city or the older parts of the city had been
there, before the United Statestook over that part of the
territory, I would say it'squite different from any other
city that I can think of in theUS, I can't think of anything,
you know, some of the cities,there are some similarities. But
this is one of them a little bitlike San Francisco, or let's
(15:46):
say, New York, which is actuallyquite notably different. You
know, you wouldn't confuse itwith with other places. Okay.
And Arizona, of course, is oneof the great states to travel
in, because it's got so manynatural parks, and, you know,
fantastic wonders. I think mostpeople never get that far south
(16:06):
in the States, but it is, in myview, it's got a lot to
recommend it.
Michael Moran (16:12):
So you're gonna give me a school.
Julian Bishop (16:14):
I'm gonna give it a score. And I was say, it's a
three or a four, you know, somaybe a 3.5 to five is unlikely
to be a city that is on the wayto anywhere, but it's a city
that I would happily travel backto. And, you know, go and go
visit a bit more to see what Imissed last time.
Michael Moran (16:33):
So thumbs up from Julian?
In the episode, Julian, we did.
We went to St. Louis, you gaveLouis St. Louis, St. Louis,
depending on whether you'reFrench or American anyway, okay.
Julian Bishop (17:02):
And I'm American, and you're not French. Let's
call it San Luis,
Michael Moran (17:06):
you gave the trailer for the Lewis and Clark
expedition. And now I have tosay, and the couple of things
that when I was reading my SIRhistory of America, as as sort
of giving myself a betterbackground, be more informed.
The history books make a bigthing about this expedition. I
don't think you're going to makea big thing about it. The
(17:28):
transversing of getting from oneside to the side of America. And
what I find a little strangeabout it, because we're going to
go across America. Well,actually, they go north
northwest. No, really, theydon't go west, I thought they
would do they go a hell of a waynorth in order to get through
the continental divide. So isn'ta big thing was a different way
(17:51):
they could get to where theywent to, as opposed to this
trudging north. And by the way,the magnitude of how long it
took them to get there and getback was phenomenal. And my
other misconception was, when Iwent in the book, I took these
two guys doing it. Actually,when I did the research this
program is an army of people canbe with them. There are so so
(18:12):
yeah, wasn't quite as I thoughtit had been sold. So first of
all, why is it a big thing?
Julian Bishop (18:17):
You had lots of questions in there. And I'm
going to forget to answer someof them. I'll tell you that you
get to the west coast withoutgoing across America the way
they did? And the answer is yes.
But traditionally, what you hadto do is you had to go via ship,
and you had to go via SouthAmerica. So that wasn't easy,
either. Even in the gold rush inCalifornia, in the 1850s, even
(18:40):
then, it was incrediblydifficult to get across the
United States. And thealternative was to get on a boat
from the East Coast, sail allthe way down to Patagonia, all
the way back up on the chillyside, and then get to America
that way, which was also notquick and not cheap. At the time
(19:01):
they did it. It was a big thing.
But immediately afterwards, itwas forgotten. It was forgotten
for almost 100 years. Gosh, thatwill make your question about
how big a thing it was. And thenit became a big thing again, I
wrote about it, you know, in thefirst book, it's a really
fascinating period of Americanhistory. And I think it will
(19:23):
make a fantastic film or TVseries. This wasn't an easy
undertaking that theseroundabout 50 People took. So
what what do you know about whythey did it, Michael?
Michael Moran (19:36):
Well, my understanding is it was also
driven by Thomas Jefferson andthe need to develop commerce. So
again, wasn't when I really whenyou said drishti and look at
these sorts of these explorers,you know, I like I'm going to
quote Captain Kirk kick.
Starship Enterprise normally useexpect explorers to go boldly
and find new people and newlands. Hank, appreciate it. This
(19:59):
was much more driven bycommercial reality, the view
that by opening up the West,you're going to new markets and
develop agriculture. Am I rightabout that? Sort
Julian Bishop (20:12):
of, let's start with the year. So Thomas
Jefferson, indeed was thepresident who wanted this to
happen. He was a very well readperson of his time, he had the
largest library in the whole ofAmerica, which actually is the
foundation of the Library ofCongress, which we saw last week
(20:34):
when we're gonna, which Lornaand I were in Washington, DC
last week. So we went to see theLibrary of Congress. So he had
these 1000s of books aboutAmerica. And he was probably the
best read person on the entirecontent, about, you know, what
the whole of the continent lookslike. However, he in line with
(20:55):
everyone else was very ignorantwith what was on the West Coast.
His perception was that therewould be woolly mammoths, huge
woolly mammoths. There, therewill be 10 foot mega Lonex,
lions, and all sorts of unknowndangerous species that were
waiting feet, people on thewest, because it was, you know,
(21:16):
almost nobody had traveled thereother than the native tribes
that were, you know, that wereliving there. So it was really
unknown. And he had thisambition that he wanted the
United States to control fromsea to shining sea, the whole of
the northern North Americacontinent. And, of course, in
(21:40):
1803, you're going to when hestarted this exhibition, what he
was trying to do, he's he wastrying to document the West
Coast, so that they could claimthe west coast as United States
territory. So there was aconcept at the time that if you
documented your presence in theregion, that documentation
(22:03):
counted towards whether thatterritory belong to you or not.
So that is what he asked Lewisand Clark to do to do this
exhibition. He wanted them todocument everything that they
saw, that was the first thingthat he wanted to do. And the
second thing he asked them todo, they knew that there was the
Missouri River, and they knewthere was the Columbia River.
(22:24):
And they believe there was alink between the two, to use
those rivers to navigate an easypassage way over to the West
Coast.
Michael Moran (22:33):
Okay, so let me ask a couple questions. I'm
assuming though, they had someidea as to what was on the West
Coast, because as you rightlysaid, they've been able to sail
round to the west coast for sometime. So they they can know
what's on the West Coast.
Basically, it was a bit in themiddle that they were ignorant
of, would that be fair? Yes,
Julian Bishop (22:56):
it would be because the Spanish because that
that time, so we're talking, youknow, the turn the beginning of
the 19th century. This isbefore, you know, the Louisiana
Purchase a lot of stuff in themiddle, the west coast was
notionally owned by the Spanish,or most of it was owned by the
Spanish. And they, you know,using their ships, they had
(23:20):
created a number of differentcommunities on the coast, but I
don't think they'd gone very farin this journey was 4000 miles.
It's quite a long journey ofthings, which are mostly
unexplored, took them 500 daysof travel to do this, to do this
4000 miles. Okay. You know, thiswas an extremely dangerous
(23:43):
journey, and one which was wasunknown, even to the person who
was best read about America, inthe United States at the time.
Michael Moran (23:52):
Okay. So do you know what influenced Mr.
Jefferson's desire to do tonavigate the the new lands?
Julian Bishop (24:00):
His main target was that that United States will
control the whole of the NorthAmerican continent and
Michael Moran (24:05):
it would pretty quickly where did he get that
idea from? 1784 Julian, should Ihave this MC at Flo
Julian Bishop (24:15):
was a year after the signing of the Treaty of
Paris. What else?
Michael Moran (24:20):
What James Cook get din James Cook discovered
Australia? And indeed, right? Weknow the history of of Cook. He
was the man who mapped thelands. And I'm told by my
research, that was one of thethings that Jefferson took his
inspiration from finding peoplewho could I say map or navigate.
So they had an accurate pictureof what the landscape looked
(24:43):
like, both in terms oftopography and animals and
vegetation. And that's what ofcourse Cook had done. When he
done that famous voyage in theendeavor. Went my Tahiti then
into New Zealand, but thenfamously discovered us Roja,
Julian Bishop (25:00):
and he later of course, perished. It is murdered
in Hawaii. He did.
Michael Moran (25:05):
He did. But going back to my thoughts about my
vision of explorers was thisintrepid bunch of people going
boldly to where nobody had beenbefore. That was my sort of
initial take on Lewis and Clark.
And I
Julian Bishop (25:19):
think you could definitely, I mean, I think they
are exceptionally brave to braveindividuals and the people they
went with were also brave. Butthey were going into the
unknown. So let's talk aboutLewis and Clark. Do you know who
Lewis and Clark were Michael?
Michael Moran (25:35):
I don't know. No, you might Enlighten me. I both
were in the army. Well, yeah, Iwas one was a captain and one
was a lieutenant. I think wewere that. Yeah.
Julian Bishop (25:44):
So it's Captain Meriwether Lewis. Yeah. And he
was Jefferson's privatesecretary. He was 28 years old.
He was an outdoorsman. He hadsome expertise in science, and
Native Americans. And he wasvery much self taught largely
through Jefferson's own library.
He was Jefferson's privatesecretary, Jefferson asked him
(26:05):
to leave the exhibition. AndLewis said, I'm only going to do
it if we can bring my friendalone as a joint leader, and his
name was Lieutenant WilliamClark,
Michael Moran (26:17):
I think was a second lieutenant wasn't me. It
wasn't even a first lieutenant.
It was a second.
Julian Bishop (26:21):
That's right. I didn't know that. Yeah. So he
was, but he was an adventurer.
And he came from a very longline and a military family with,
you know, who had all served inthe military. And they put to
get team together a 43 people todo this job. Yeah. Most of those
people came from the US Army. Sothey brought along some other
(26:44):
people. Do you know who thoseother people were my con?
Michael Moran (26:48):
No doubt, just checking with us occasionally,
because one of our new one gotkilled didn t early on?
Julian Bishop (26:54):
Yeah, there was one person who got killed, but
let's not spoil that surprise.
So they brought along Louis'sdog called Seaman who was a
black Newfoundland dog. Theyhired a French Canadian fur
trader called to Sasha Bernal,he brought along his two wives,
depending on which source youyou trust, these wives were
(27:17):
either bought by him, or one ina poker game. And so the first
wife was called the otter woman,who I don't believe came on the
exhibition because she'smentioned right at the
beginning, and their copiousnotes that they wrote. They
wrote notes of their journey, amillion words, they wrote on
(27:39):
their journey.
Michael Moran (27:42):
So even more than your new book. Yeah, that's
Julian Bishop (27:45):
like, no, stop, stop. We got to have people
read. So the altar woman was hisfirst wife. But it's believed
that she didn't go on theexhibition. And then there was
his second wife, who was calledSakic aware, had you have you
heard of Sakha? Well, no. Noother woman has met has as many
(28:07):
statues, as as she does inAmerica. So she is very famed,
she was 15 years old. And shewas a show Sean, Indian Native
American, who was kidnapped byanother tribe, when she was
about eight or nine. So she wasinstrumental in their safe
(28:30):
passage through to the otherside, because she spoke a number
of different Native Americanlanguages. And she also brought
along with her, somebody who wasvery important, and that was she
was pregnant. And then halfwaythrough the journey, she gave
birth to her child, the presenceof this child convinced many of
(28:52):
the Native American tribes thatthis exhibition came in peace.
If you were waging war, whywould you bring an infant along
with you? So she was, she wasinstrumental, and arguably, she
is the most famous person on theexhibition. There was a another
person who's quoted lot who wasYork, and he was the enslaved
(29:15):
boy ahead friends of, of WilliamClark. So he came along, he was
quite a sight to the NativeAmerican tribes, they, you know,
he was a very tall gentleman,and he would have very dark
skinned and they had never seenanyone who looked like that
before. So they treated him veryreverentially. And he was very
(29:36):
popular. They used to offer uptheir their wives who would
spend the night with Yorkthroughout their journey. He was
very popular because of hisphysique. He was highly
muscular. So that was the groupand as you say, that they
experienced the death fairlyearly on somebody. They weren't
(29:58):
really doctors at the time.
We're at Lewis and Clark, bothtrains, using the books of
Jefferson, on the sort of latestmedical things that were
available at the time, when theman dies, and I forgotten his
name,
Michael Moran (30:12):
I can tell you, it's Charles Floyd. And he died
of appendicitis didn't he?
Julian Bishop (30:18):
He died of appendicitis they weren't able
to treat appendicitis as you canimagine. And the place where he
died, is named after him. It's acreek named after him now, and
that was fairly early on in thejourney. And it's a plot
spoiler. Despite the immensedanger, they all went through
all of the others returns intact safe. And I
Michael Moran (30:39):
tried to work out why I had this misguided view as
it happened, sort of that it wastwo guys doing this training on
their own. I, I'm gonna say Ithink because every time you see
an illustration, you just seethe to looking at some great
visarjan like that. They've goneacross the continental divide,
and they're looking forward. Butof course, it doesn't show the
(31:00):
43 people behind them, or 41.
Julian Bishop (31:06):
In order to get to the other side, they had to
cross through the territory of70 Native Americans, right? Yes.
So you're talking, you know, ineach one, you know, they came in
peace, they came as explorers,but in each one, they were
handing out gifts, you know,peace and friendship metals made
of silver, each meeting was wasextremely convoluted. So in
(31:30):
their party, they had Englishpeople, you know, who were
English speaking people, Lewisand Clark, who were talking to
somebody who could speak French,who then was translating it into
military, which is, which is theNative American language into
(31:51):
Sean, and then into NES NESpass, or NES per se, which is
the the French word for thelanguage of, of many of the
Native American tribes. So it'sa very convoluted process of
actually communicating withthese various tribes. Lewis and
Clark, you know, we're not greatlinguists,
Michael Moran (32:11):
nothing was changes them.
Julian Bishop (32:14):
Oh, well, maybe some people speak languages, and
it was very dangerous. Do youknow what they spent a third of
their money on? Michael?
Michael Moran (32:20):
No, no idea hearing for the trip. Preparing
for the trip. Got this was inpreparation. Yes.
Julian Bishop (32:28):
What what do you think they spent the money?
Food? No, although they didobviously spent a lot of money
on food. And they also capturedtheir own food and, but a third
of their money they spent onmalaria protection. So malaria
was very prevalent. They triedto protect themselves against
these mosquitoes by smotheringthemselves with pigs lard, all
(32:52):
over their body. How
Michael Moran (32:53):
do they know to expect that given the not been
there? When I say not
Julian Bishop (32:57):
been there, some people had been some of the way
Yes, nobody would be in thehallway. Yeah. Okay. So they
knew enough about some of thesetribes, and they knew enough
from other explorers who've madesome journeys, that mosquitoes
were an issue in their notes,million words of notes. They
talk regularly about thediseases that picking up and,
(33:22):
and the running of the bowels,which was, you know, which was,
you know, a hazardous, you know,just went with the territory.
Now, Michael, they also spent alot of their money or exchanged
a lot of their food in exchangefor sexual favors with the
native tribes. And they knewenough to take along some
(33:46):
treatment, and which would cureor manage the STDs that they
were picking up on the way.
Okay, so do you know how theyare able to trace the one of the
ways they're able to trace theirjourney
Michael Moran (34:00):
to spread a venereal disease? Well,
Julian Bishop (34:03):
that would be brilliant. But no, that's not
the way that it's actuallythrough the treatment of veneer
or disease. Okay, at the time,the main treatment was mercury,
which is of course, we now know,mercury to be poisonous to
humans. They were using mercuryas a way of treating their STDs.
And because mercury never, youcan't ever get rid of it. It's
(34:25):
something which always staysthere. They can trace where
their journey went throughMercury deposits left by the
latrines of where they went,coach. Which I think is kind of
interesting. Yeah.
Michael Moran (34:40):
I did reference that I know the, the, the voyage
of James Cook, again, hadsimilar issues with malaria, and
the relationships with thelocals and all the things that
go with that. They bribed thenatives with nails, nails, they
took lots of nails. To them, andthey gave natives nails in
(35:02):
return for sexual favors. Right?
What were Lewis and Clark givingthe natives in return for sexual
favors, foodstuffs,
Julian Bishop (35:09):
the silver metals. If you watch the the US
version of Antiques Roadshowroadshow, you'll see these the
silver metals piece metals cameup fairly frequently on those
shows, and the presence of Yorkand you know, in a baby, you
know, I think they've would havebeen, although was very
dangerous for these explorers. Ithink a lot of these Native
(35:31):
American tribes were veryinterested in these new people
who are traveling through theirlands. You know, there was a
certain amount of novelty intheir appearance. And they had
these things that they'd neverseen before. Yeah, you know,
different types of food,different types of, you know,
things that they brought along,lots of things they brought
(35:51):
along, were to exchange forfood. And then, of course, they
would hunt. Yeah, semen, theLouis's dog. He was a fantastic
Hunter.
Michael Moran (36:04):
Virginia took guns with them, didn't they?
muskets, they
Julian Bishop (36:08):
definitely did take guns with them. Because
once they got to the other side,so they when they get went to
the other side, which was inOregon, they then wintered in
Oregon before before comingback. So they just spent just
over a year getting there.
They'd spent the first winter Ithink, in South Dakota, and then
the second winter they spent inOregon. And then when it got
(36:28):
warm again, and they were makingthe return journey, one of them
was shot there. And he was shotby one of the people on the team
Lewis was shot, one of theexhibition party had confused
him for an ALC Lewis Scott shot.
So and then they made the returnjourney, which actually was much
(36:51):
more perilous seem and the dogwas dog napped. And they had to
use all their negotiation skillsto get him back. One point they
took slightly different routesor routes, as Americans would
call them. I think, if anythingmore perilous on the way back.
Well, I was gonna
Michael Moran (37:08):
ask you about that. So I have them leaving on
the 14th of May 1804. From campDuBois in Illinois. Yeah. Yeah.
And I have them getting on thePacific Ocean on the seventh of
November 1805. Okay, yes. Butthey got back on the 23rd of
March 1806. So they certainlymoved on to move on the way
(37:31):
back, didn't they compared tothe what? Many months, you tend
to get their major fall toNovember 1805? Yeah,
Julian Bishop (37:40):
they did winter, I think in South Dakota, you
know, to start with. And thensecondly, remember, they had
been mapping the territories,that overall plan as it was, was
defined, they understood thatthere was a way that you could
use the Missouri River and theColumbia River, which are two
great rivers in America, andthat they were fairly proximate
(38:03):
to each other, and they coulduse these rivers to easily, you
know, say, taken boats with themto easily, you know, get down
these rivets. Now, for thosepeople have been to Montana, of
course, we now know these riversto be hundreds of miles apart.
So you know, not one or twomiles that you're carrying a
(38:24):
boat, but 100 miles, that's 100miles over Montana, which means
mountains. So you're talkingabout navigating big mountain
regions carrying a boat on theway back. Because of their maps,
they knew where the rivers wentto. So they were was the first
time around. They had to ask fordirections. Where's this big
(38:46):
river? Second time around whenthey knew where the river was?
So I think it was a lot easierfor them because they knew the
way Yeah.
Michael Moran (38:53):
And my other thought about their achievement,
which I think does stand outcompared to other explorers of
the same time and I'm talkingkind of cook as they're taking
muskets. They seem to shoot lotsof the natives, unless it and
this exhibition, they clearlydid very well, because they met
a whole host of different Indiantribes, didn't they? And yet no
(39:16):
point there there appear to beno disputes, or ended in
bloodshed. Well, I
Julian Bishop (39:24):
think there were some disputes. I mean, I think
the Sioux Indians were, youknow, were relatively, you know,
they weren't particularlyfriendly, and rightly so, as it
turned out. There was obviouslysomething about Lewis and Clark,
although they were in the USmilitary, you know, they
genuinely did go, or least theywere able to feign a peaceful
demeanor to the people they met.
Of course, the irony of it isalthough Sakic away I was, you
(39:48):
know, obviously, a key person inhistory and, you know, as a
Native American herself, that itwas her presence which
ultimately led to have, you knowall of the Native American
tribes being overpowered byUnited States in the 19th
century. So there is an ironythat, you know, she's celebrated
for helping the United Statesgain control over the over the
(40:12):
continent. But she was alsoresponsible, not firsthand, but
indirectly responsible for, forthe demise of these tribes.
There are huge numbers offantastic stories. These are
clearly very brave people. Thereis apparently a movie or TV
series being made with BradPitt's and Tom Hanks about their
(40:35):
journeys. And it would make avery good story because there
are so many sort of componentparts to it. And it's got a nice
doc. Okay,
Michael Moran (40:45):
and come back to your opening statement. How come
fell out of people's thinking,having taken place over 100
years, and then come back intofolklore because my my
understanding is obviously andin fact that making a movie on
it tells you that you know,Lewis and Clark, you know, our
Lord, who was the fact that theythey opened up America to be a,
(41:07):
you know, a much bigger placeand to were instrumental in the
expansion that took placethereafter, given this work.
Julian Bishop (41:15):
So once they got back, they did come back to a
hero's welcome. But they werevery quickly forgotten after
that. The diaries they hadwritten, were poor, poorly
constructed, they were terriblespellers. Both of them were
terrible spellers, they, youknow, even people's names they
misspelled in 20 different wayswithin these documents. Most of
(41:38):
their handwriting is veryillegible. So although they came
back to a hero's welcome, theirjourneys were fairly quickly
forgotten. They weren'tremembered, until they decided
on the 100th anniversary oftheir journey, they decided to
do one of these world fairs atPortland, Oregon, to celebrate
(42:00):
100 years of Lewis and Clark.
And that led to you know, peopleactually really translating
their diaries and led to a greatdeal of interest in their
journeys. But for most of the19th century, well, it's
probably true to say theyweren't even a footnote in the
history of American history,because their journey had been
entirely almost entirelyforgotten. What happened to them
(42:22):
when they came back. So Louis in1809, he suffered from
depression. He was in a tavernand he shot himself, but he
didn't kill himself. And thenhaving failed to kill himself,
he then shot himself againremoving most of his face and a
half of his head, didn't even dothat correctly. And he took
another 24 hours to die andextreme pen. He didn't have a
(42:44):
good end. Sakic aware she diedin 1812, she'd had a number of
children by them. And when shedied, Clark took responsibility
for her children. And heactually became governor of the
Missouri territory, which is avery large territory in 1813.
(43:06):
You know, he continued to be akey American in the West York,
he was freed by Clark and wenton to live a, you know,
reasonably fruitful life. Two ofthem died fairly quickly. And
only one of them really went onto any sort of degree of fame
after that,
Michael Moran (43:26):
in the news on the dog. You said he was
kidnapped? Yes,
Julian Bishop (43:30):
semen died, as he said, doggy he was, but I think
he died naturally, you know, itwas, you know, he didn't die of
any, you know, having eaten abad possum or something. hero's
welcome. And then really largelyforgotten. But of course, now
they are seen as the equivalentsof, let's say, Neil Armstrong,
(43:52):
you know, as really greatAmerican explorers. And I think,
if you think about, we can allnow drive across the United
States, or we can fly across theUnited States, we don't realize
that this was completelyuncharted territory. They
believed that there were hugelions and mammoths in that
territory, they just had no ideawhat was there. So going into
(44:15):
that unknown, takes degree ofbravery, I think.
Michael Moran (44:19):
And Jefferson's original desire to so open up
the, I would say the interiorfor commerce and agricultural
whatever, did that happen? As aresult of this exhibition? I
mean, I get the sense of whatyou're saying they they're
getting back, but after that, itdidn't achieve the objectives,
(44:40):
what they did
Julian Bishop (44:41):
meet their objective and that this is all
now part of the United States.
Yes. How much of it was down totheir exhibition is not clear to
me. Certainly they would haveused their notebooks to say hey,
you know, we have a footprint inthis area. Look at these people.
They did this exhibition, lookat all their notes on all of the
cars they were exploring all thefauna and the flora that, you
know, they, they there was somescience to what they were doing.
(45:03):
They weren't just with theirmachetes blazing a path they
were stopping, they wererecording all of that, that they
saw, they certainly use the datathey collected to say, hey, this
bit is United States, but morelikely that the European, they
got most of this territorybecause the European nations,
(45:24):
you know, this wasn't strategicfor the European nations at the
time. So France, which hadLouisiana Territory, and the
Spanish, which had, you know,the, the West Coast, that just
wasn't top priority for them.
The these areas, they were muchmore interested in fighting wars
in Europe would have this havehappened anyway, maybe. Okay.
(45:49):
But, you know, many of thefounding fathers, their ambition
was to control the whole of thecontinent. And Jefferson, you
know, who I think of is a greatprecedent. You know, certainly
he was very unfriendly towardsNative Americans. You know, he
was one of a long line andpresidents who were plotting
their downfall. And while he mayhave had good instincts about
(46:12):
enslaved people, he wasobviously a very well read,
educated, intelligent man. Youknow, I think his legacy is
somewhat tainted by his by hisantipathy and opposition to
Native American tribes. And
Michael Moran (46:27):
I'm glad you raised that, because I was going
to say, you're obviously I'vereferenced now a number of
occasions, British explorers?
Well, I think today, theirreputation is colonialists sort
of, you know, this desire to saythis as part of the British
Empire or ditto the, the theFrench or the Dutch. Now, going
to bad press, you know, wouldyou say the same is true of
(46:49):
Lewis and Clark, and that wasone of the object objectives or,
you know, particularly, I thinkyou've alluded to it, not them,
but ultimately, it led to a verysignificant demise of the native
Indian population, and the waythey were treated on the
confiscation of lands, etc.
Julian Bishop (47:10):
Yeah, because by the end of the 19th century, the
Native American population hadfallen to about a quarter of a
million people. Yeah, so you'retalking about the 19th century
is a time of annihilation ofYeah, you know, a whole bunch of
ethnic groups, you know, withinthat Native population. So Lewis
and Clark in general, I think,escaped most of the worst, that
(47:33):
they're probably regarded fairlyhighly. I mean, they're really
porns, the people who have comein for most of the IRA, the
politicians who clearly had agoal, which, you know, which
completely discounted the nativepeople lived in those lands. So
those politicians, you know,that probably wasn't that long
ago that President AndrewJackson was revered as a great
(47:57):
American president. But now heis, you know, he's regarded very
poorly indeed, because of theTrail of Tears and the other
things that he did with withNative American population in
100 years time, 200 years time,what we do today in our lives
will be construed verynegatively. Yeah, we don't know
(48:18):
quite how, but people will livea different life, and they will
have a different set of values.
At that time. They didn't valueNative American people. And they
were, you know, they werecolonialists. That's the way
their minds worked. Yeah.
judging them on the basis oftoday's you know, what's
regardless as acceptablebehavior today is not really
(48:40):
fair. And of course, they'realways going to suffer because
they didn't live in today'stimes. Yeah. Yeah. With
Jefferson in particular. He wasalways one of the founding
fathers, which was most antislavery. And he did a number of
very important things to createnew states, which were not slave
(49:00):
states ended up being veryinstrumental in, in abolishing
slavery. When it comes to NativeAmericans. There's no positive
spin you can put on it. Yeah, sothat's Lewis and Clark, I would
say great American explorers.
And reminding us of, of howyoung the country of United
States is. In historical terms,this isn't long at all. These
(49:22):
are areas which are completelyundiscovered, you know, in the
in the first part of the 19thcentury.
Michael Moran (49:32):
And if you put them on a platform of great
explorers, you would certainlyhave them very much your honor.
Power with, let's say with JamesScott. Yeah. So they sort of,
yeah,
Julian Bishop (49:43):
all of them have got to be brave to do yes,
things they are going into theunknown. They've no, I mean,
they're probably likelihood thatthey won't come back.
Michael Moran (49:52):
Full louder, you could say, but nevertheless,
it's very brief people. Yes.
Yeah. At the outset, we said Tothe next episode will be a
trailer for Julian's new book awrite riveting read as they say,
Are we there yet? And next timeI'm going to be interviewing
Julian hopefully having read thebook beforehand.
Julian Bishop (50:15):
Excellent. Well, I look forward to reading the
book.
Michael Moran (50:17):
I look forward to really Julian and so it's
goodbye for me and it's goodbyefrom him.
Unknown (50:46):
My
Julian Bishop (50:52):
mind
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