December 10, 2023 • 38 mins
In Episode 53, Michael interviews Julian about his new book "Are We There Yet?"
In a wide-ranging interview, they talk about historical and current immigration; the Amish; and the role travel books have in opening oneself up to new experiences.
Michael enjoyed Julian's new book greatly, devouring it in 48 hours. He described it as a "right riveting read."
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Learn more about America's future in Julian's second book, Are We There Yet?
Michael enjoyed Julian's new book greatly, devouring it in 48 hours. He described it as a "right riveting read."
Other Show Notes
Learn more about how America's culture developed in Julian Bishop's High, Wide, and Handsome.
Learn more about America's future in Julian's second book, Are We There Yet?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Moran (00:16):
Welcome to a very special edition of American
journey with me, Michael Moranand Julian Bishop for episode
53. And we're going to devoteour time exclusively to Julian's
new book. Julian, are youexcited, super
Julian Bishop (00:32):
excited, Michael to find out what you thought of
the book. And
Michael Moran (00:37):
I did manage to read it in less than 48 hours.
So despite in the previousepisode, precious seconds,
there's a lot of words, a lot ofwords in there, but I got I
didn't, I didn't speed read it,Julian. I read it properly and
took some notes out. One of mycareer aspirations has always
been to be like a chat showhost. I think I'd make a good
chat show host. So this is mychance to be a chat.
Julian Bishop (00:58):
I was feeling Graham Nelson is shaking in his
boots tonight in
Michael Moran (01:01):
the chair, so hopefully, I won't fall over. So
let's get straight to Julian.
Why a second book?
Julian Bishop (01:08):
That's a good question. Well, I enjoyed
writing the first other peopletold me that they enjoyed
reading the first, I really lovethe research part. And I love
the writing. I felt I had a bitmore to say about America. Okay,
Michael Moran (01:22):
and almost got a ship straight on, how long did
it take you to write the secondbook? Julian?
Julian Bishop (01:27):
I would say a couple of years. Okay. You know,
obviously, I wasn't working allthe time, I was vacationing a
lot and enjoying life. And Itook some time off. But from the
time when I started the time,when I finished, I guess that
was about a couple of years.
Okay. The first book, as yourecall, had a very defined
audience and purpose. You know,I was writing to people who are
new immigrant immigrants to theUS who wanted to understand it
(01:49):
better. And two people who, youknow, had a strong interest in
the US who wanted to understandwhat had formed American culture
and how things worked inAmerica. The second book took a
different audience, you know, Iwas obviously interested in
writing, again, to people whoare interested in America. But
this book is really about thedepth of American culture, the
(02:12):
communities, which are, youknow, maybe a little bit further
apart from their stereotype. Thelast book talks more about
history, this book talks moreabout America's future. And
Michael Moran (02:26):
last time, if I may say it was a narrative about
a, a, a road trip, you took in amuch more defined period, as I
know, because of sort of thingswe've been talking about, this
will have a much longer period.
So what was the gap between youexperiencing, say, a new city or
going to Italy? And then thetime before you started writing
(02:46):
the narrative around that wasthe gap between the two? So
Julian Bishop (02:51):
I'll answer that question in two parts. So from
the sort of the first time thatI started writing, which was,
you know, when I was made a UScitizen, to the endpoint of this
book, which is the end of 2022,we're talking about something
like 22 months. And then interms of, you know, when did I
write the things that I waswriting about, I took notes
(03:15):
while I was doing some of thethings. So when I was in New
York, I would take notes aboutthe things that I was seeing,
while I was in Italy, I would bereading about Italy, and taking
notes about some of theexperiences I was having that,
then I would go away and do alot of research. You know, and I
enjoyed the research partreading a little bit more to,
you know, understand a littlebit deeper about some of the
(03:35):
experiences, I had some of thehistory, some of the culture.
And so some of that writingmight have been maybe six months
disparate from, you know, fromactually having been to the
place.
Michael Moran (03:45):
A personal point, if it also felt like it sort of
follow the conversations we hadon on the podcast. So I was able
to relate to it quite well. Andstarting with one, which you
already mentioned, which is Igot the big strong sense of
becoming American citizen, wasvery important to you. And
indeed, participating indemocracy, America was very
(04:08):
important. And you describethat, if I may say, you're very
cynical of the outputs ofAmerican democracy, or whatever.
So how do you reconcile the two,a final democracy? And yet the
outputs can be less thandesirable. There'll be about
that, Julian?
Julian Bishop (04:25):
I mean, I think I am very cynical about
politicians. I have a very lowlevel of trust and political
parties. And while I canunderstand that people might
have a pawn shop for, you know,one particular party or another,
you know, they may have, theymay side with a party because of
their specific, you know, viewson social worker or economic
(04:46):
issues. I really don'tunderstand why people align
themselves fully with a specifictribe. Because history shows us
that you shouldn't trustgovernments. That's if you go
Back to the Greeks and probablybefore, most governments do
things which are not necessarilygreat for the people that they
(05:07):
govern. For a long time, I'vebeen very cynical of
politicians. What I think isfantastic about democracy is
that enables you to get rid ofthe most corrupt politicians and
governments. And the threat ofdemocracy makes politicians
behave, perhaps better than theywould do if there was no threat
that they wouldn't get electednext time. And you can look in
(05:31):
various different parts ofBritish American and other
countries history to see that,you know, in the 97, election,
when UK electorate voted forLabour over conservatives, yeah,
they may have been very happyabout the Labour Party at that
time, but a lot of their vote,were saying, Actually, we're fed
up at this law, who seems to begetting more and more corrupt in
(05:52):
government before that. And youcan see similar examples of that
in pretty much most countriesaround the world. I'm a big fan,
that democracy keeps a lid onpoliticians, natural
inclinations, although
Michael Moran (06:06):
I think it may argue, if you have a democracy,
have politicians, and if you'rea politician, and you have
corruption, it seems to go handin glove. So one breeds the
other. I'm interested in yourview that it keeps a check on
politicians, but I have ahorrible suspicion that so long
as you have a politician, youwill also have various vested
(06:28):
interest in corruption, etc,etc. Because
Julian Bishop (06:31):
that is, you know, one of the reasons why
America has the constitutionthat it has is that the founding
fathers were cognizant of this,of this danger. But I tend to
side with people like Churchill,democracy and being the, you
know, the least worst form ofgovernment.
Michael Moran (06:46):
And not Plato talked about the the evils, the
evil, the tyranny of democracy.
Julian Bishop (06:52):
Right. And, of course, that's what the founding
fathers were very much cognizantof when they were drafting the
Constitution. They had readPlato, they had read the
thinkers after that, you know,many of the policies, for
example, you know, having twosenators per states, rather than
having senators, you know,representing a certain number of
people in a state that was partof their response to guarding
(07:14):
against the evils of the tyrannyof democracy. Yes. If you're
saying that I'm cynical aboutpoliticians. Yeah, you're
absolutely right. I am. I alsothink that democracy is really
important. And I talk about, youknow, democracy in various
different parts of the book,specifically as it pertains to
the USA. So, uh, you know, talkabout, you know, the hanging
(07:36):
chad incident in in, in Florida,and most people have heard of
that, but they probably hadn'theard about the more recent
analysis of that, you know, thatdebark also talked about
journalism. And, you know, it'snot just democracy, that's
important. It's important thatwe have independent journalists
who keep a check on politicians.
And the, you know, one of thedifficulties over the last
(07:58):
couple of decades is that, youknow, so many local newspapers
have closed, you know, about aquarter of all local newspapers
in the UK in the US have closedover the last two decades. And
the number of journalists thatare there are in local
newspapers is massively falling,that has a big effect on
decentralized countries like theUS, you know, where most of
(08:19):
their politicians are local. Andmany of the powers are with
local politicians, when you havefewer local newspapers, keeping
a check on them, then you getthe opportunity for more
corruption.
Michael Moran (08:32):
Yeah. And of course, what we've got on the
other side is the growth oflarge media outlets funded by
individuals with a particularpolitical axe to grind. So
you're getting more informationout there, but from fewer
sources, and less independentsources? Well, let's, let's move
on to slide because that's quiteserious. What I was gonna say to
(08:53):
it did remind me of topics we'dcovered in the podcast, and so a
couple of others, so things likeVan life and Jews, teens, and
the average, you know, those,there's a whole series of sort
of things that you you sort ofthrow in the home, but Michael,
the Amish makes the Amish onething the book is some very
(09:19):
serious things to it. Butthere's also lots of what I call
diversions and cul de sacsaround things that you didn't
know about. And one wasobviously the Chad incident,
which I didn't know about. So doyou have any favorite stories of
things that you saw recently,that you'd like to point our
listeners to? So when they readthe book, they know what's
coming? You're right,
Julian Bishop (09:40):
I find it very easy to sidetrack myself into
things which are sort of vaguelyrelevant to what I've just said.
And then suddenly, you realizethere's been a couple of
paragraphs on somethingcompletely different. So I do
that quite a lot in the book,because I've enjoyed
researching, you know, whateverit is, I've gone on to think
it's relevant. I still includeit because I You know, I still
think most people will getsomething from it for me, I
(10:04):
enjoyed our podcast on the army,I thought it was a very good
podcast, see to me, you know,and I said this in the point, I
can't remember which podcast is27 or something, it is something
around that, that number of youif listeners want to go back to
it, or listen to it for thefirst time, to me, the Amish are
really interesting, because theyobviously come from Switzerland
(10:25):
and Germany, but they weren'table to survive or often weren't
able to thrive and certainlyweren't able to survive there.
So they came to the US. And it'sreally only the US and maybe
Canada, where they have beenable to survive. And of course,
they're doing extremely well,their population is doubling
every, you know, every 20 yearsor so, you're talking about an
(10:48):
extremely successful community,but they are far from the
American stereotype. They areAmerican, because that's the
only place they can reallyoperate. But they are very
different from the Americanstereotype. And I think you can
see that, throughout America,this, you know, this principle
(11:08):
of freedom, and people should beable to do what it is they want
without interference from otherpeople means that you have all
of these different communities,which are really quite diverse.
This one of the things I reallyvalue about the US is its
diversity of vastly of differentpeople who live vastly different
lives. And so for me, thatcertainly are that group of
(11:29):
Amish Who, who do what they do,and you know, have pretty
defined cultures, I think youpointed at the time, you know,
us is a land where technologyis, you know, at the heart of
the US culture? And of course itis. And here's a group of people
who say, no, no, no, we're notdoing any technology. And they
are as American as me as asapple pie.
Michael Moran (11:52):
Well, I did like the the reference to what I
refer to as Amish bill, we'vegot Disneyland, we've got Dolly
Parton, and the place where theyall go to the holiday to
literally let their hair down,which I thought was was a great
story. And
Julian Bishop (12:07):
that happens to be near where I live now. And
it's fantastic to see them,almost literally let their hair
down. And that's really one ofthe things that I wanted to
cover with this book is, youknow, away from the stereotype
where various different groupswere and why it was that they
you know, they called Americatheir home. America structured
(12:28):
that way, the way theConstitution is written,
protects people, and allowspeople to, you know, to practice
their own religion and to liveas they want. The Supreme Court
is set up, you know, to protectthe lives of people who are, you
know, who may want to dosomething different. And of
course, the Supreme Court is,has been very important in
guaranteeing our mesh rights.
It's not only the people whosay, yeah, that's okay, do what
(12:51):
you want, you know, live thelife you want to live. But it's
also the structure of the of theUS legal system, which enables
that as well. Okay,
Michael Moran (13:01):
any other favorites?
Julian Bishop (13:03):
I think I covered the hurricane don't try to think
what was in the podcast, andthen what was in the book. And,
Michael Moran (13:10):
of course, what listeners may recall, was the we
did an episode about hurricanepreparation, completely
independently of the weatherforecast. So within two weeks,
two weeks, and we can do thatyou were putting into practice
hurricane preparation.
Julian Bishop (13:26):
Right? That's right. And, you know, it's just
a fact of life for a small groupof Americans or, you know, those
who live in around the Gulfarea. You're gonna get some
hurricanes which come along oncein a while. And it's, it's
really interesting to see howpeople react to that. Okay,
Michael Moran (13:45):
so moving on yet again. So throughout the the
book, there are some, yourtensor tuber. And by the way, I
like the fact that you do gosort of, we take us down a
number of cul de sacs. So whenyou see a chapter on sort of
moving to New York, you can bevery quickly discussing
(14:06):
something which is vaguelyrelated to New York. And I like
that. Yeah, there's also thehumor, but sadly, there is a
degree of a lot of baiting isn'tthat sort of, you know, whether
it's a patience, it's a fishingskills, is it navigation is a
dietary requirements when shegoes to a new place, she has to
(14:26):
eat the food, she has the bitsof what the bulk of your humor,
and I am wondering thing whenshe reads the book, and if he's
read the book, what will she sayon the back cover in terms of
whether you should read it ornot?
Julian Bishop (14:39):
Well, she has read the book, and obviously she
is used to my sense of humor.
Now my wife since I was 15,obviously I love my wife, I plan
to live with her for you know,further 30 years or whatever it
is that we have left. So really,I see it as gentle teasing, but
you know, she's a pretty strongcharacter. I seem to I remember
when you came to visit us,Michael, that you were also
(15:01):
teasing her about her patientsregarding her fishing skills.
She has little in the way ofpatients. And so in the book,
you know, I will tease her alittle bit about that dietary
habits, she has this thing whereshe loves it, she's quite
adventurous in her food eating.
And she has this thing where shehas to sample the local cuisine.
(15:25):
So for example, when we went toKyiv, Kyiv, in Ukraine, we went
to a restaurant she said, I'dlike to have the most local of
your cuisine if you could bringthat to me, please didn't even
know what it was on the menu.
And they brought a chicken Kyivwhich obviously, was not unknown
to us. But you know, I do likeit when we go to a place and
there is something trulydisgusting. That is the local
(15:47):
cuisine. So she's not a big fanof cheese steak from
Philadelphia. Yes, she reallyfound that, you know, or at
least the one she can't shefound that disgusting. You know,
she was slightly more enamoredwith the wrapper, scrapple from
Delaware, in Florence, thelampredotto paninis, which is
basically cows in its in thesandwich, you know, was not to
(16:08):
her liking. So it's to all hercredit that she wants to sample
all these foods, you know, whichpersonally I wouldn't touch with
a bargepole.
Michael Moran (16:18):
And give you immense pleasure seeing her eat
it.
Julian Bishop (16:22):
Oh, yeah, particularly particularly, you
know, she's unwell. brave, braveto her, you know, because I'm
not eating these things. And ofcourse, you know, she's the one
I always travel with. So to anextent, while I meet and talk,
you know, meet other people andtalk about those, those things
that I'm doing, you know, she'skind of a thread throughout the
(16:45):
journey that we made from whenwe became US citizens to kind of
when we've settled down again,that sort of period of nomadic
travel in between is the is thenarrative structure of the book.
Michael Moran (16:56):
And of course, you obviously, I know Lauder, so
when I was reading the book atyour behest I, I have visual
exposure long as expressions, asyou recounting the tails of meal
she he tried, and clearly werenot successful. So here
grimacing, a new smirking. Sogood, vigilant. Metiria.
Julian Bishop (17:16):
Yeah, that's right. And then for every single
one of those, there's somethingwhen she tries and she likes,
and that's, you know, that'slife, isn't it, if you don't try
anything new, then you're notgoing to experience new great
things, to to experience newgreat things, you have to try
some things which you end up notliking. I hope most of listeners
like to do new stuff and try newstuff regularly. Because there's
(17:38):
gonna be some new stuff, whichis absolutely fantastic. And the
price you pay is that sometimesyou do something new, which you
don't like,
Michael Moran (17:45):
and I think that should be one of the key lessons
from the book. So I absolutelyendorse that. That's the other
thing the book does. And if Imay, I won't give the accent but
there were several what I callMichael Caine moments. Not a lot
of people know that. One was NewYork, with somehow Central Park
is apparently the only the fifthlargest park in New York and I
(18:08):
was thinking, I didn't knowthat. And where are the other
four? New York's Yeah, where arethey hidden? So tell the
listeners a little bit about theother four. And what's your
favorite? Okay,
Julian Bishop (18:19):
well, there are a dozen also, New York City parks
that are over 500 acres. Andjust as a way of context for
British listeners, Hyde Park,which is I think London's
largest park, maybe around that.
That's 358 years. So they're inNew York City. They have many
fantastic parks. And there are,you know, about a dozen or so
(18:40):
which are over 500 acres, andthe largest one which is in the
Bronx, Pelham Bay Park 2800Acres is I visited that and I
liked it a lot. And don't get mewrong. I really love Central
Park as well. You know, I lovethe ice skating rink, that
Shakespeare arena and all thedifferent parts of the park,
Strawberry Fields, the runningtracks, all of those types of
(19:02):
things. But there are many otherparks which have, you know,
similar levels of interestProspect Park in Brooklyn, which
is just a wonderful park meadowsand woods and lakes and picnic
lawns. And you know, if you gothere at a weekend on a sunny
day, then you will see theBrooklyn community. That's where
they've gone for their leisure.
(19:24):
And you see 1000s of peoplehaving picnics, throwing balls
doing the normal things thatpeople do in a park. And you
asked about what were myfavorite parts? Yes. Did you is
that is that part of yourquestions? So this one park I
visited I was lucky enough to beinvited to an open day for a new
park that they're building onStaten Island. They used to have
(19:46):
the rubbish tip. The garbagearea of New York City was on
Staten Island in this areacalled Fresh, fresh kills and
what they've done a few yearsago 2001 They closed it and they
started planning to build a newpark on the site of this rubbish
tip. This park is not open until2038. But it is going to be much
(20:09):
larger than Central Park. Andit's going to have kayaking
trails and sports fields andcycling paths and all of those
things. It will make thegreenest boroughs of New York
City, which is Staten Islandeven more green. And it's doing
so on the back of you know,something, which was the rubbish
tip for New York City for 50years. I also talked in the book
(20:30):
about another part right at thetop of Manhattan called Inwood
Hill Park. And Inwood Hill, hasnever used to be an Irish area.
Now. It's very Dominica an areaand it's a fantastic place to
see Dominica play, you know, yousee them playing baseball, you
know, soccer, children,obviously playing on
playgrounds, people runningthrough forests, actually, that
(20:50):
is the place, the one place Iknow of in New York City that
you can actually see an equal.
So everyone thinks of New YorkCity as skyscrapers, they
associate New York City probablywith skyscrapers. But yet it has
these marvelous, mostly natural,open spaces for the enjoyment of
the New York City community. Andmost people wouldn't necessarily
know that, you know, unless youlived in New York City, you
(21:12):
probably don't know that you youknow about the, you know, the
Chrysler building or, you know,Grand Central Station, but you
don't know about all these sortof wonderful parks where New
York City people go to play.
Michael Moran (21:26):
Okay, well, no, I was gonna say Julian, is one of
the key features of the books isthat learning describes your
journeys, it's not a typicaltourist journey. Well, what you
do is you you point out topeople, things they might like
to consider the average touristdoesn't see hence my focus on
the is it for the parks over andabove Central Park, where most
(21:49):
people will know about it, therewere lots of other things that
have to go into it. Which ofcourse, takes now takes me now
into Europe. Because you don'texclusively talk about the US,
we go into into Europe. So Ineed to get a sense of are you
sort of do you have a favoriterecollection? Or a favorite
country? In New York? You spentyour time? You did France did
(22:11):
Italy? They're sort of what giveme a sense of where you see
France versus the way you sit?
Julian Bishop (22:17):
I don't know. But that's a difficult question. In
the book, when I'm writing aboutFrance, and Italy, yes, I'm
writing about France and Italy,but I'm writing about them with
specific reference to the placein the formation of the US. So
your book is still about the US.
But I'm in another country. AndI'm talking a little bit about
French culture, Italian culture,and how those cultures have been
(22:37):
important in forming, you know,the United States of America, I
don't really feel that I have tochoose between France, Italy in
the US, because I can travelfreely, I can enjoy all the good
things about all of thosedifferent places. So I don't
feel that I have to select oneand then decide that's what I
(23:00):
have to do forever. We've alwaysLorna, and I've always loved
traveling in Europe. And youknow, most years we spend two or
three years traveling in Europeand enjoying usually it's Italy,
because that's the country welove most. Obviously, there are
pluses and minuses to France,Italy, and the US and some of
them are very obvious, I feel Ican enjoy the positives of each
(23:23):
country, I tend to focus on thethings that I like, rather than
the things that I don't like.
Michael Moran (23:31):
So, in the book, we I was reminded of the Monty
Python skit of what did theRomans do for us?
Unknown (23:41):
Yes, well, I actually parody parody that,
Michael Moran (23:45):
that. So what row was did for the US? What would
you want to highlight here? Imean, what is the Roman legacy
as transferred to the US?
Julian Bishop (23:56):
There are two things, which I think, you know,
really important about RomanItaly's impact on the US,
Western civilization began inGreece, but essentially was
promulgated by the Roman Empire.
And that's still thecivilization that we're living
in today, that Westerncivilization that is still the,
(24:16):
you know, the most powerfulsimulation station on Earth. And
so Italy is the home of Rome,and Rome really is the only
European country that hasconquered all of Europe, that
has a really long term majorimpact on the now dominant
country of Western civilization,which is the United States. And
(24:41):
then secondly, much later, afterthe reunion of Italy, in the
Risorgimento. In the 19thcentury, there was widespread
emigration from Italy to otherparts of the world, you know,
something like well over 50% ofpeople in Italy, the newly
formed Italy, left Italy becauseit was such a, such a poor
(25:04):
place. And the Italians werevery pleased to see them go. And
very many of them. And figuresare a little bit difficult to
pin down. But you know, somefive to 7 million, perhaps
Italians came to the US and theywere amongst youth, not
necessarily the earliestimmigrants, but they were very
important immigrants in the late19th century. And these
(25:25):
immigrants were, they were thetype of immigrants that today,
no one would want, you know, 70%of them were illiterate, but
they had little in the way ofskills. And indeed, when they
came to the US, many people, youknow, massively discriminatory
against them. Because theydidn't seem to be bringing many
skills to America, you know,they preferred Americans at the
(25:47):
time, they preferred NorthernEuropean immigrants to those
from the south. But if you waita couple of generations, you see
that these Italian immigrantswho came, had very little in the
way of skills, but they had adesire to better themselves, the
contribution they make toAmerican society is
immeasurable. If you think aboutAmerican society, without
(26:09):
Italian music, Italian films,sport, wine, finance, industry,
cartoons, and loads of otherthings, if you think about the
contribution of those second andthird generation, Italian
immigrants, that's a measurableHonor Society, you know, later
on, it's in existence. And ofcourse, that makes you reflect
(26:31):
on immigration today, you havesimilar type of immigrants, you
know, coming to the US and tothe UK, and actually to, to
every European country, manypeople in those new host
countries don't want theseimmigrants. And they say, Oh,
they're not skilled. They'rejust economic migrants. But
actually, that, you know, theycan and do have a very positive
(26:52):
effect on the country, becausethe ones who move tend to be the
ones with the greatest get upand go. And they tend to make
the greatest contribution lateron. Now, sure, I understand the
arguments about not having toomany at once, and you know, all
of that type of stuff. But maybesome of the Guatemalans and the
Venezuelans coming today.
(27:13):
They're the ones who are goingto really propel America in the
future. And we know that 50% Ofall the unicorns, which are the
startups worth more than abillion dollars, are formed by
first generation immigrants,cluding, and many of the early
immigrants, they are thefounders and the leaders of some
of our biggest companies today.
So I talk about Italy, and Italk about the culture of Italy.
(27:37):
And you know, I'm reallyinterested in the culture of
Italy. So there's probably quitea lot of diversion on the
culture of Italy. And I talkabout how chaotic it is, and,
you know, all of the variousthings that go on there. But
actually, the serious point onAmerica is that just over 100
years ago, these were regardedas very poor immigrants, indeed,
(27:57):
and that, you know, manyAmericans didn't want them and
they were massivelydiscriminated against. But
actually, the contribution theymake later on or that their
children make later on isenormously positive. So
Michael Moran (28:11):
DACA is another key message around open
mindedness to immigration, and Iabsolutely endorse what you're
saying. Whilst in Italy, you dospend enormous amount of time in
museums. Yeah. I got thefeeling. So if a chapter went
by, and Julian was paged out byyou had visited museum, there
(28:34):
was something amiss, so whatdifficult question, but I'm
gonna say, Okay. Of your tour,when you did France and Italy?
What were the three? Yourfavorite three museums for?
Julian Bishop (28:48):
The US as well?
Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, for all ofthe journey? That's a really
difficult question, because Imust have visited 300 museums
over the space of two years,probably
Michael Moran (29:00):
page one of agelessness Yeah, and
Julian Bishop (29:03):
it's not a review of each Museum. Yeah. You know,
I, you know, so I guess themuseums, which made the greatest
impact on me, I think, EllisIsland or New York City, I think
this is quite well known museumfor most people been there. To
me, as somebody who was a new UScitizen, that was quite poignant
for me visiting there andseeing, you know, I wasn't brave
(29:25):
coming to the US came in on abusiness class ticket. I was,
you know, sponsored by mycompany that, you know, there
was no, I wasn't brave cominghere but the the early people
who emigrated to emigrated toAmerica, they were they were
astonishingly brave. And I thinkwhat Ellis Island, it shows the
process that they went through,in leaving their home country
(29:48):
and then coming to the US. Ifelt that was an extraordinarily
moving Museum, which of course,most people who go to New York
City probably would go to EllisIsland. I love that museum at
It's a famous museum, but it'sabsolutely great museum. I spent
quite a lot of time writingabout went to see a museum,
which most people wouldn't haveheard of. In South Carolina.
(30:09):
It's the Museum of marinetraining. You know, I send the
Marines, the, you know, the, youknow, the military unit, which
is in South Carolina on ParrisIsland. That was an exceptional
Museum, because I'm not aparticularly I'm somebody who
generally is anti war. I thinkthat the more we can avoid war,
the war always leads to justawful things, and, and
(30:31):
unhappiness and misery to toeveryone involved. And so I'm
not really inclined to militarymuseums, which tend to glorify
war, and this reallyconcentrated on their training.
And it was such a strong Museum,that by the end of my museum
visit, I wanted to join theMarines, which is the last thing
that anyone would say that Iwould want to do, but it was so
(30:54):
powerfully done, and I felt anaffinity to the people who were
training and the reason thatthey wanted to join them. And I
would commend that museum toanyone in in South Carolina is
near Beaufort, in in SouthCarolina, fantastic Museum,
third museum, but she was one ofEurope. Okay, so this is a
really insignificant Museum,called the Museo de Pere
(31:18):
officiel della Pietro do array,which is the workshop of semi
precious stones in Florence. AndI have no interest in semi
precious stones. But it was oneof the places that they used to
restore all of the artifactsthat were that were destroyed in
the 1966 flood of the of theriver Arnau, which led to 22
(31:41):
feet of water, traveling aroundthe city, that 30 speeds of 35
miles an hour and golfing all ofthe houses, the palaces, the
museums, the library is at thattime. If you think about
Florence, which is the is thehome of the Renaissance is the
home to so much irreplaceablepieces of art. That museum
(32:02):
talked about the work theirmuseum did and trying to restore
these, these artifacts. Now, youmay well remember the 1966 flood
of the honor. Is that right,Michael? I
Michael Moran (32:13):
remember Nike 66 Because obviously England's
victory in the world. I don'trecall the flood of followers.
So this
Julian Bishop (32:21):
was an enormous tragedy for Florence and
obviously a tragedy for loversof art all around the world. And
we had these 1000s of peopleoverseas, Anjali de la del
fango, that they call the mudangels that came to the city to
volunteer their help in tryingto rescue all of these pieces of
art that have been submergedunder water and sewage of mud
(32:44):
for days on end. The museumtalked about you know, how they
restored this art. And I saythat in the past tense, but
they're still restoring some ofthese pieces of art. Yeah. Are
you talking about that? Willtake many decades, particularly
that very foolishly? There weresome things you think why the
hell did you do that theequivalent of the British, the
(33:06):
British Library or the USLibrary of Congress that, you
know, they've got a librarythere, which houses all of
Italy's books, they put most oftheir rare books in the
basement. So unless thefloodwaters came in millions of
manuscripts that were submergedonto water, and they are still
decades away from completing therestoration of those of those
(33:29):
manuscripts, and indeed, butsome of the works of art took 40
or 50 years to restore, they hadto wait for new tolerant
technology to improve to be ableto restore the wooden crucifix
or Vasari's last supper orwhatever. So yes, I liked that
museum. No one's ever heard ofit. I hadn't heard of it. I only
went to it because it was on afree ticket that I had. And it
(33:50):
was a surprise, I thought, agreat museum. It's not greater
than the offense See, or, youknow, some of the other museums
in Florence. But it was a verybig surprise to me. And I love
that museum. I probably visited200 museums, two years. Yeah.
Even more, I don't know. So I
Michael Moran (34:08):
don't know, you could talk a long time on
museums but very conscious oftime. So I want to draw us to a
close thinking sort of so. Soobviously, I'd like you to say a
few words around why the readersshould buy your book and how
they can buy your book, but sortof give me an overview of three
ways to describe your bookJulian.
Julian Bishop (34:29):
Well, that's a difficult one, isn't it? I mean,
I Why don't you give me threewords, what what words would you
use to describe the book? It's
Michael Moran (34:37):
eclectic. So it's, it's thought provoking
much more than one word ofcourse, but yeah, sort of. It
stimulates it stimulates. And Iwas one word, I think he must be
the winner is I was intrigued orit inspires you to think Well, I
would like to go there. Or Iwould, I wish I'd seen that
(35:00):
door. I'd like to see that. So.
So I do think it's one of thesebooks I was with somebody read
your, your, your first book onTuesday night and he said, he
read the book. And then as aresult of that he got several
the places that you recommended.
And I think this has to say,there's a whole series of
places. I would like to go tosee that, or I wish I'd seen
(35:22):
that.
Julian Bishop (35:23):
Yeah. What's really interesting is that the
ways you've written to describeit, are actually probably what I
would say as well, I would usedifferent words, I would say,
educational, yeah, will be oneof my words, entertaining, or be
another because I do try toentertain. And then I think,
fundamentally, the book is stilla travel book, which I hope will
(35:45):
inspire people to visitdifferent places and see new
things and meet new people. Andeven if it's not the ones in my
book, it could be somethingcompletely different. Take
yourself out of your comfortzone, go and meet some people
who are unlike you, who livedifferent lives and try and
understand them. Because you'reenormously rich, enriched by
that. Yeah, so interesting. Theway you describe it will be I
(36:07):
mean, we use slightly differentwords, but there are basically
the same thing.
Michael Moran (36:11):
And I do like the key message around, but most of
it wills very big place. Andthere's a natural tendency to
stick within the things you'refamiliar with. I think you're
encouraging people to go and seethings that you're not familiar
with, because it will enrichenrich your life. How did they
buy your book, then Julian,
Julian Bishop (36:27):
so number of places, the easiest one and then
the one which shells almost allof the books is Amazon. So if
you go on to your Amazon site,you search my name, Julian
bishop, and are we there yet,which is the title of the book,
my book should come up first,and you can buy it in an ebook
form you can buy it in paperbackor you can buy it in hardback.
(36:47):
So that's probably the easiestway to buy it if I think it will
make a good Christmas presentfor people give it to somebody
who you think might enjoy thethe stories and the themes of
the book. And I hope you enjoyit. And I look forward to
engaging with people and andtalking to people about their
perspectives of you know, oncethey've read it, and hearing
(37:08):
what they have to say and theirdifferent views.
Michael Moran (37:10):
Obviously, that I'm not on commission listeners,
I can endorse books and say withthose famous words is a right,
riveting read. A right rivetingread so
Unknown (37:23):
and that's hard for you to say it is
Michael Moran (37:25):
so easy for you to say it's hard for me to say
Unknown (37:29):
so, you're gonna say it's goodbye from me and
Michael Moran (37:32):
he's goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from him
Unknown (37:48):
got lazy
Welcome to a very special edition of American
journey with me, Michael Moranand Julian Bishop for episode
53. And we're going to devoteour time exclusively to Julian's
new book. Julian, are youexcited, super
Julian Bishop (00:32):
excited, Michael to find out what you thought of
the book. And
Michael Moran (00:37):
I did manage to read it in less than 48 hours.
So despite in the previousepisode, precious seconds,
there's a lot of words, a lot ofwords in there, but I got I
didn't, I didn't speed read it,Julian. I read it properly and
took some notes out. One of mycareer aspirations has always
been to be like a chat showhost. I think I'd make a good
chat show host. So this is mychance to be a chat.
Julian Bishop (00:58):
I was feeling Graham Nelson is shaking in his
boots tonight in
Michael Moran (01:01):
the chair, so hopefully, I won't fall over. So
let's get straight to Julian.
Why a second book?
Julian Bishop (01:08):
That's a good question. Well, I enjoyed
writing the first other peopletold me that they enjoyed
reading the first, I really lovethe research part. And I love
the writing. I felt I had a bitmore to say about America. Okay,
Michael Moran (01:22):
and almost got a ship straight on, how long did
it take you to write the secondbook? Julian?
Julian Bishop (01:27):
I would say a couple of years. Okay. You know,
obviously, I wasn't working allthe time, I was vacationing a
lot and enjoying life. And Itook some time off. But from the
time when I started the time,when I finished, I guess that
was about a couple of years.
Okay. The first book, as yourecall, had a very defined
audience and purpose. You know,I was writing to people who are
new immigrant immigrants to theUS who wanted to understand it
(01:49):
better. And two people who, youknow, had a strong interest in
the US who wanted to understandwhat had formed American culture
and how things worked inAmerica. The second book took a
different audience, you know, Iwas obviously interested in
writing, again, to people whoare interested in America. But
this book is really about thedepth of American culture, the
(02:12):
communities, which are, youknow, maybe a little bit further
apart from their stereotype. Thelast book talks more about
history, this book talks moreabout America's future. And
Michael Moran (02:26):
last time, if I may say it was a narrative about
a, a, a road trip, you took in amuch more defined period, as I
know, because of sort of thingswe've been talking about, this
will have a much longer period.
So what was the gap between youexperiencing, say, a new city or
going to Italy? And then thetime before you started writing
(02:46):
the narrative around that wasthe gap between the two? So
Julian Bishop (02:51):
I'll answer that question in two parts. So from
the sort of the first time thatI started writing, which was,
you know, when I was made a UScitizen, to the endpoint of this
book, which is the end of 2022,we're talking about something
like 22 months. And then interms of, you know, when did I
write the things that I waswriting about, I took notes
(03:15):
while I was doing some of thethings. So when I was in New
York, I would take notes aboutthe things that I was seeing,
while I was in Italy, I would bereading about Italy, and taking
notes about some of theexperiences I was having that,
then I would go away and do alot of research. You know, and I
enjoyed the research partreading a little bit more to,
you know, understand a littlebit deeper about some of the
(03:35):
experiences, I had some of thehistory, some of the culture.
And so some of that writingmight have been maybe six months
disparate from, you know, fromactually having been to the
place.
Michael Moran (03:45):
A personal point, if it also felt like it sort of
follow the conversations we hadon on the podcast. So I was able
to relate to it quite well. Andstarting with one, which you
already mentioned, which is Igot the big strong sense of
becoming American citizen, wasvery important to you. And
indeed, participating indemocracy, America was very
(04:08):
important. And you describethat, if I may say, you're very
cynical of the outputs ofAmerican democracy, or whatever.
So how do you reconcile the two,a final democracy? And yet the
outputs can be less thandesirable. There'll be about
that, Julian?
Julian Bishop (04:25):
I mean, I think I am very cynical about
politicians. I have a very lowlevel of trust and political
parties. And while I canunderstand that people might
have a pawn shop for, you know,one particular party or another,
you know, they may have, theymay side with a party because of
their specific, you know, viewson social worker or economic
(04:46):
issues. I really don'tunderstand why people align
themselves fully with a specifictribe. Because history shows us
that you shouldn't trustgovernments. That's if you go
Back to the Greeks and probablybefore, most governments do
things which are not necessarilygreat for the people that they
(05:07):
govern. For a long time, I'vebeen very cynical of
politicians. What I think isfantastic about democracy is
that enables you to get rid ofthe most corrupt politicians and
governments. And the threat ofdemocracy makes politicians
behave, perhaps better than theywould do if there was no threat
that they wouldn't get electednext time. And you can look in
(05:31):
various different parts ofBritish American and other
countries history to see that,you know, in the 97, election,
when UK electorate voted forLabour over conservatives, yeah,
they may have been very happyabout the Labour Party at that
time, but a lot of their vote,were saying, Actually, we're fed
up at this law, who seems to begetting more and more corrupt in
(05:52):
government before that. And youcan see similar examples of that
in pretty much most countriesaround the world. I'm a big fan,
that democracy keeps a lid onpoliticians, natural
inclinations, although
Michael Moran (06:06):
I think it may argue, if you have a democracy,
have politicians, and if you'rea politician, and you have
corruption, it seems to go handin glove. So one breeds the
other. I'm interested in yourview that it keeps a check on
politicians, but I have ahorrible suspicion that so long
as you have a politician, youwill also have various vested
(06:28):
interest in corruption, etc,etc. Because
Julian Bishop (06:31):
that is, you know, one of the reasons why
America has the constitutionthat it has is that the founding
fathers were cognizant of this,of this danger. But I tend to
side with people like Churchill,democracy and being the, you
know, the least worst form ofgovernment.
Michael Moran (06:46):
And not Plato talked about the the evils, the
evil, the tyranny of democracy.
Julian Bishop (06:52):
Right. And, of course, that's what the founding
fathers were very much cognizantof when they were drafting the
Constitution. They had readPlato, they had read the
thinkers after that, you know,many of the policies, for
example, you know, having twosenators per states, rather than
having senators, you know,representing a certain number of
people in a state that was partof their response to guarding
(07:14):
against the evils of the tyrannyof democracy. Yes. If you're
saying that I'm cynical aboutpoliticians. Yeah, you're
absolutely right. I am. I alsothink that democracy is really
important. And I talk about, youknow, democracy in various
different parts of the book,specifically as it pertains to
the USA. So, uh, you know, talkabout, you know, the hanging
(07:36):
chad incident in in, in Florida,and most people have heard of
that, but they probably hadn'theard about the more recent
analysis of that, you know, thatdebark also talked about
journalism. And, you know, it'snot just democracy, that's
important. It's important thatwe have independent journalists
who keep a check on politicians.
And the, you know, one of thedifficulties over the last
(07:58):
couple of decades is that, youknow, so many local newspapers
have closed, you know, about aquarter of all local newspapers
in the UK in the US have closedover the last two decades. And
the number of journalists thatare there are in local
newspapers is massively falling,that has a big effect on
decentralized countries like theUS, you know, where most of
(08:19):
their politicians are local. Andmany of the powers are with
local politicians, when you havefewer local newspapers, keeping
a check on them, then you getthe opportunity for more
corruption.
Michael Moran (08:32):
Yeah. And of course, what we've got on the
other side is the growth oflarge media outlets funded by
individuals with a particularpolitical axe to grind. So
you're getting more informationout there, but from fewer
sources, and less independentsources? Well, let's, let's move
on to slide because that's quiteserious. What I was gonna say to
(08:53):
it did remind me of topics we'dcovered in the podcast, and so a
couple of others, so things likeVan life and Jews, teens, and
the average, you know, those,there's a whole series of sort
of things that you you sort ofthrow in the home, but Michael,
the Amish makes the Amish onething the book is some very
(09:19):
serious things to it. Butthere's also lots of what I call
diversions and cul de sacsaround things that you didn't
know about. And one wasobviously the Chad incident,
which I didn't know about. So doyou have any favorite stories of
things that you saw recently,that you'd like to point our
listeners to? So when they readthe book, they know what's
coming? You're right,
Julian Bishop (09:40):
I find it very easy to sidetrack myself into
things which are sort of vaguelyrelevant to what I've just said.
And then suddenly, you realizethere's been a couple of
paragraphs on somethingcompletely different. So I do
that quite a lot in the book,because I've enjoyed
researching, you know, whateverit is, I've gone on to think
it's relevant. I still includeit because I You know, I still
think most people will getsomething from it for me, I
(10:04):
enjoyed our podcast on the army,I thought it was a very good
podcast, see to me, you know,and I said this in the point, I
can't remember which podcast is27 or something, it is something
around that, that number of youif listeners want to go back to
it, or listen to it for thefirst time, to me, the Amish are
really interesting, because theyobviously come from Switzerland
(10:25):
and Germany, but they weren'table to survive or often weren't
able to thrive and certainlyweren't able to survive there.
So they came to the US. And it'sreally only the US and maybe
Canada, where they have beenable to survive. And of course,
they're doing extremely well,their population is doubling
every, you know, every 20 yearsor so, you're talking about an
(10:48):
extremely successful community,but they are far from the
American stereotype. They areAmerican, because that's the
only place they can reallyoperate. But they are very
different from the Americanstereotype. And I think you can
see that, throughout America,this, you know, this principle
(11:08):
of freedom, and people should beable to do what it is they want
without interference from otherpeople means that you have all
of these different communities,which are really quite diverse.
This one of the things I reallyvalue about the US is its
diversity of vastly of differentpeople who live vastly different
lives. And so for me, thatcertainly are that group of
(11:29):
Amish Who, who do what they do,and you know, have pretty
defined cultures, I think youpointed at the time, you know,
us is a land where technologyis, you know, at the heart of
the US culture? And of course itis. And here's a group of people
who say, no, no, no, we're notdoing any technology. And they
are as American as me as asapple pie.
Michael Moran (11:52):
Well, I did like the the reference to what I
refer to as Amish bill, we'vegot Disneyland, we've got Dolly
Parton, and the place where theyall go to the holiday to
literally let their hair down,which I thought was was a great
story. And
Julian Bishop (12:07):
that happens to be near where I live now. And
it's fantastic to see them,almost literally let their hair
down. And that's really one ofthe things that I wanted to
cover with this book is, youknow, away from the stereotype
where various different groupswere and why it was that they
you know, they called Americatheir home. America structured
(12:28):
that way, the way theConstitution is written,
protects people, and allowspeople to, you know, to practice
their own religion and to liveas they want. The Supreme Court
is set up, you know, to protectthe lives of people who are, you
know, who may want to dosomething different. And of
course, the Supreme Court is,has been very important in
guaranteeing our mesh rights.
It's not only the people whosay, yeah, that's okay, do what
(12:51):
you want, you know, live thelife you want to live. But it's
also the structure of the of theUS legal system, which enables
that as well. Okay,
Michael Moran (13:01):
any other favorites?
Julian Bishop (13:03):
I think I covered the hurricane don't try to think
what was in the podcast, andthen what was in the book. And,
Michael Moran (13:10):
of course, what listeners may recall, was the we
did an episode about hurricanepreparation, completely
independently of the weatherforecast. So within two weeks,
two weeks, and we can do thatyou were putting into practice
hurricane preparation.
Julian Bishop (13:26):
Right? That's right. And, you know, it's just
a fact of life for a small groupof Americans or, you know, those
who live in around the Gulfarea. You're gonna get some
hurricanes which come along oncein a while. And it's, it's
really interesting to see howpeople react to that. Okay,
Michael Moran (13:45):
so moving on yet again. So throughout the the
book, there are some, yourtensor tuber. And by the way, I
like the fact that you do gosort of, we take us down a
number of cul de sacs. So whenyou see a chapter on sort of
moving to New York, you can bevery quickly discussing
(14:06):
something which is vaguelyrelated to New York. And I like
that. Yeah, there's also thehumor, but sadly, there is a
degree of a lot of baiting isn'tthat sort of, you know, whether
it's a patience, it's a fishingskills, is it navigation is a
dietary requirements when shegoes to a new place, she has to
(14:26):
eat the food, she has the bitsof what the bulk of your humor,
and I am wondering thing whenshe reads the book, and if he's
read the book, what will she sayon the back cover in terms of
whether you should read it ornot?
Julian Bishop (14:39):
Well, she has read the book, and obviously she
is used to my sense of humor.
Now my wife since I was 15,obviously I love my wife, I plan
to live with her for you know,further 30 years or whatever it
is that we have left. So really,I see it as gentle teasing, but
you know, she's a pretty strongcharacter. I seem to I remember
when you came to visit us,Michael, that you were also
(15:01):
teasing her about her patientsregarding her fishing skills.
She has little in the way ofpatients. And so in the book,
you know, I will tease her alittle bit about that dietary
habits, she has this thing whereshe loves it, she's quite
adventurous in her food eating.
And she has this thing where shehas to sample the local cuisine.
(15:25):
So for example, when we went toKyiv, Kyiv, in Ukraine, we went
to a restaurant she said, I'dlike to have the most local of
your cuisine if you could bringthat to me, please didn't even
know what it was on the menu.
And they brought a chicken Kyivwhich obviously, was not unknown
to us. But you know, I do likeit when we go to a place and
there is something trulydisgusting. That is the local
(15:47):
cuisine. So she's not a big fanof cheese steak from
Philadelphia. Yes, she reallyfound that, you know, or at
least the one she can't shefound that disgusting. You know,
she was slightly more enamoredwith the wrapper, scrapple from
Delaware, in Florence, thelampredotto paninis, which is
basically cows in its in thesandwich, you know, was not to
(16:08):
her liking. So it's to all hercredit that she wants to sample
all these foods, you know, whichpersonally I wouldn't touch with
a bargepole.
Michael Moran (16:18):
And give you immense pleasure seeing her eat
it.
Julian Bishop (16:22):
Oh, yeah, particularly particularly, you
know, she's unwell. brave, braveto her, you know, because I'm
not eating these things. And ofcourse, you know, she's the one
I always travel with. So to anextent, while I meet and talk,
you know, meet other people andtalk about those, those things
that I'm doing, you know, she'skind of a thread throughout the
(16:45):
journey that we made from whenwe became US citizens to kind of
when we've settled down again,that sort of period of nomadic
travel in between is the is thenarrative structure of the book.
Michael Moran (16:56):
And of course, you obviously, I know Lauder, so
when I was reading the book atyour behest I, I have visual
exposure long as expressions, asyou recounting the tails of meal
she he tried, and clearly werenot successful. So here
grimacing, a new smirking. Sogood, vigilant. Metiria.
Julian Bishop (17:16):
Yeah, that's right. And then for every single
one of those, there's somethingwhen she tries and she likes,
and that's, you know, that'slife, isn't it, if you don't try
anything new, then you're notgoing to experience new great
things, to to experience newgreat things, you have to try
some things which you end up notliking. I hope most of listeners
like to do new stuff and try newstuff regularly. Because there's
(17:38):
gonna be some new stuff, whichis absolutely fantastic. And the
price you pay is that sometimesyou do something new, which you
don't like,
Michael Moran (17:45):
and I think that should be one of the key lessons
from the book. So I absolutelyendorse that. That's the other
thing the book does. And if Imay, I won't give the accent but
there were several what I callMichael Caine moments. Not a lot
of people know that. One was NewYork, with somehow Central Park
is apparently the only the fifthlargest park in New York and I
(18:08):
was thinking, I didn't knowthat. And where are the other
four? New York's Yeah, where arethey hidden? So tell the
listeners a little bit about theother four. And what's your
favorite? Okay,
Julian Bishop (18:19):
well, there are a dozen also, New York City parks
that are over 500 acres. Andjust as a way of context for
British listeners, Hyde Park,which is I think London's
largest park, maybe around that.
That's 358 years. So they're inNew York City. They have many
fantastic parks. And there are,you know, about a dozen or so
(18:40):
which are over 500 acres, andthe largest one which is in the
Bronx, Pelham Bay Park 2800Acres is I visited that and I
liked it a lot. And don't get mewrong. I really love Central
Park as well. You know, I lovethe ice skating rink, that
Shakespeare arena and all thedifferent parts of the park,
Strawberry Fields, the runningtracks, all of those types of
(19:02):
things. But there are many otherparks which have, you know,
similar levels of interestProspect Park in Brooklyn, which
is just a wonderful park meadowsand woods and lakes and picnic
lawns. And you know, if you gothere at a weekend on a sunny
day, then you will see theBrooklyn community. That's where
they've gone for their leisure.
(19:24):
And you see 1000s of peoplehaving picnics, throwing balls
doing the normal things thatpeople do in a park. And you
asked about what were myfavorite parts? Yes. Did you is
that is that part of yourquestions? So this one park I
visited I was lucky enough to beinvited to an open day for a new
park that they're building onStaten Island. They used to have
(19:46):
the rubbish tip. The garbagearea of New York City was on
Staten Island in this areacalled Fresh, fresh kills and
what they've done a few yearsago 2001 They closed it and they
started planning to build a newpark on the site of this rubbish
tip. This park is not open until2038. But it is going to be much
(20:09):
larger than Central Park. Andit's going to have kayaking
trails and sports fields andcycling paths and all of those
things. It will make thegreenest boroughs of New York
City, which is Staten Islandeven more green. And it's doing
so on the back of you know,something, which was the rubbish
tip for New York City for 50years. I also talked in the book
(20:30):
about another part right at thetop of Manhattan called Inwood
Hill Park. And Inwood Hill, hasnever used to be an Irish area.
Now. It's very Dominica an areaand it's a fantastic place to
see Dominica play, you know, yousee them playing baseball, you
know, soccer, children,obviously playing on
playgrounds, people runningthrough forests, actually, that
(20:50):
is the place, the one place Iknow of in New York City that
you can actually see an equal.
So everyone thinks of New YorkCity as skyscrapers, they
associate New York City probablywith skyscrapers. But yet it has
these marvelous, mostly natural,open spaces for the enjoyment of
the New York City community. Andmost people wouldn't necessarily
know that, you know, unless youlived in New York City, you
(21:12):
probably don't know that you youknow about the, you know, the
Chrysler building or, you know,Grand Central Station, but you
don't know about all these sortof wonderful parks where New
York City people go to play.
Michael Moran (21:26):
Okay, well, no, I was gonna say Julian, is one of
the key features of the books isthat learning describes your
journeys, it's not a typicaltourist journey. Well, what you
do is you you point out topeople, things they might like
to consider the average touristdoesn't see hence my focus on
the is it for the parks over andabove Central Park, where most
(21:49):
people will know about it, therewere lots of other things that
have to go into it. Which ofcourse, takes now takes me now
into Europe. Because you don'texclusively talk about the US,
we go into into Europe. So Ineed to get a sense of are you
sort of do you have a favoriterecollection? Or a favorite
country? In New York? You spentyour time? You did France did
(22:11):
Italy? They're sort of what giveme a sense of where you see
France versus the way you sit?
Julian Bishop (22:17):
I don't know. But that's a difficult question. In
the book, when I'm writing aboutFrance, and Italy, yes, I'm
writing about France and Italy,but I'm writing about them with
specific reference to the placein the formation of the US. So
your book is still about the US.
But I'm in another country. AndI'm talking a little bit about
French culture, Italian culture,and how those cultures have been
(22:37):
important in forming, you know,the United States of America, I
don't really feel that I have tochoose between France, Italy in
the US, because I can travelfreely, I can enjoy all the good
things about all of thosedifferent places. So I don't
feel that I have to select oneand then decide that's what I
(23:00):
have to do forever. We've alwaysLorna, and I've always loved
traveling in Europe. And youknow, most years we spend two or
three years traveling in Europeand enjoying usually it's Italy,
because that's the country welove most. Obviously, there are
pluses and minuses to France,Italy, and the US and some of
them are very obvious, I feel Ican enjoy the positives of each
(23:23):
country, I tend to focus on thethings that I like, rather than
the things that I don't like.
Michael Moran (23:31):
So, in the book, we I was reminded of the Monty
Python skit of what did theRomans do for us?
Unknown (23:41):
Yes, well, I actually parody parody that,
Michael Moran (23:45):
that. So what row was did for the US? What would
you want to highlight here? Imean, what is the Roman legacy
as transferred to the US?
Julian Bishop (23:56):
There are two things, which I think, you know,
really important about RomanItaly's impact on the US,
Western civilization began inGreece, but essentially was
promulgated by the Roman Empire.
And that's still thecivilization that we're living
in today, that Westerncivilization that is still the,
(24:16):
you know, the most powerfulsimulation station on Earth. And
so Italy is the home of Rome,and Rome really is the only
European country that hasconquered all of Europe, that
has a really long term majorimpact on the now dominant
country of Western civilization,which is the United States. And
(24:41):
then secondly, much later, afterthe reunion of Italy, in the
Risorgimento. In the 19thcentury, there was widespread
emigration from Italy to otherparts of the world, you know,
something like well over 50% ofpeople in Italy, the newly
formed Italy, left Italy becauseit was such a, such a poor
(25:04):
place. And the Italians werevery pleased to see them go. And
very many of them. And figuresare a little bit difficult to
pin down. But you know, somefive to 7 million, perhaps
Italians came to the US and theywere amongst youth, not
necessarily the earliestimmigrants, but they were very
important immigrants in the late19th century. And these
(25:25):
immigrants were, they were thetype of immigrants that today,
no one would want, you know, 70%of them were illiterate, but
they had little in the way ofskills. And indeed, when they
came to the US, many people, youknow, massively discriminatory
against them. Because theydidn't seem to be bringing many
skills to America, you know,they preferred Americans at the
(25:47):
time, they preferred NorthernEuropean immigrants to those
from the south. But if you waita couple of generations, you see
that these Italian immigrantswho came, had very little in the
way of skills, but they had adesire to better themselves, the
contribution they make toAmerican society is
immeasurable. If you think aboutAmerican society, without
(26:09):
Italian music, Italian films,sport, wine, finance, industry,
cartoons, and loads of otherthings, if you think about the
contribution of those second andthird generation, Italian
immigrants, that's a measurableHonor Society, you know, later
on, it's in existence. And ofcourse, that makes you reflect
(26:31):
on immigration today, you havesimilar type of immigrants, you
know, coming to the US and tothe UK, and actually to, to
every European country, manypeople in those new host
countries don't want theseimmigrants. And they say, Oh,
they're not skilled. They'rejust economic migrants. But
actually, that, you know, theycan and do have a very positive
(26:52):
effect on the country, becausethe ones who move tend to be the
ones with the greatest get upand go. And they tend to make
the greatest contribution lateron. Now, sure, I understand the
arguments about not having toomany at once, and you know, all
of that type of stuff. But maybesome of the Guatemalans and the
Venezuelans coming today.
(27:13):
They're the ones who are goingto really propel America in the
future. And we know that 50% Ofall the unicorns, which are the
startups worth more than abillion dollars, are formed by
first generation immigrants,cluding, and many of the early
immigrants, they are thefounders and the leaders of some
of our biggest companies today.
So I talk about Italy, and Italk about the culture of Italy.
(27:37):
And you know, I'm reallyinterested in the culture of
Italy. So there's probably quitea lot of diversion on the
culture of Italy. And I talkabout how chaotic it is, and,
you know, all of the variousthings that go on there. But
actually, the serious point onAmerica is that just over 100
years ago, these were regardedas very poor immigrants, indeed,
(27:57):
and that, you know, manyAmericans didn't want them and
they were massivelydiscriminated against. But
actually, the contribution theymake later on or that their
children make later on isenormously positive. So
Michael Moran (28:11):
DACA is another key message around open
mindedness to immigration, and Iabsolutely endorse what you're
saying. Whilst in Italy, you dospend enormous amount of time in
museums. Yeah. I got thefeeling. So if a chapter went
by, and Julian was paged out byyou had visited museum, there
(28:34):
was something amiss, so whatdifficult question, but I'm
gonna say, Okay. Of your tour,when you did France and Italy?
What were the three? Yourfavorite three museums for?
Julian Bishop (28:48):
The US as well?
Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, for all ofthe journey? That's a really
difficult question, because Imust have visited 300 museums
over the space of two years,probably
Michael Moran (29:00):
page one of agelessness Yeah, and
Julian Bishop (29:03):
it's not a review of each Museum. Yeah. You know,
I, you know, so I guess themuseums, which made the greatest
impact on me, I think, EllisIsland or New York City, I think
this is quite well known museumfor most people been there. To
me, as somebody who was a new UScitizen, that was quite poignant
for me visiting there andseeing, you know, I wasn't brave
(29:25):
coming to the US came in on abusiness class ticket. I was,
you know, sponsored by mycompany that, you know, there
was no, I wasn't brave cominghere but the the early people
who emigrated to emigrated toAmerica, they were they were
astonishingly brave. And I thinkwhat Ellis Island, it shows the
process that they went through,in leaving their home country
(29:48):
and then coming to the US. Ifelt that was an extraordinarily
moving Museum, which of course,most people who go to New York
City probably would go to EllisIsland. I love that museum at
It's a famous museum, but it'sabsolutely great museum. I spent
quite a lot of time writingabout went to see a museum,
which most people wouldn't haveheard of. In South Carolina.
(30:09):
It's the Museum of marinetraining. You know, I send the
Marines, the, you know, the, youknow, the military unit, which
is in South Carolina on ParrisIsland. That was an exceptional
Museum, because I'm not aparticularly I'm somebody who
generally is anti war. I thinkthat the more we can avoid war,
the war always leads to justawful things, and, and
(30:31):
unhappiness and misery to toeveryone involved. And so I'm
not really inclined to militarymuseums, which tend to glorify
war, and this reallyconcentrated on their training.
And it was such a strong Museum,that by the end of my museum
visit, I wanted to join theMarines, which is the last thing
that anyone would say that Iwould want to do, but it was so
(30:54):
powerfully done, and I felt anaffinity to the people who were
training and the reason thatthey wanted to join them. And I
would commend that museum toanyone in in South Carolina is
near Beaufort, in in SouthCarolina, fantastic Museum,
third museum, but she was one ofEurope. Okay, so this is a
really insignificant Museum,called the Museo de Pere
(31:18):
officiel della Pietro do array,which is the workshop of semi
precious stones in Florence. AndI have no interest in semi
precious stones. But it was oneof the places that they used to
restore all of the artifactsthat were that were destroyed in
the 1966 flood of the of theriver Arnau, which led to 22
(31:41):
feet of water, traveling aroundthe city, that 30 speeds of 35
miles an hour and golfing all ofthe houses, the palaces, the
museums, the library is at thattime. If you think about
Florence, which is the is thehome of the Renaissance is the
home to so much irreplaceablepieces of art. That museum
(32:02):
talked about the work theirmuseum did and trying to restore
these, these artifacts. Now, youmay well remember the 1966 flood
of the honor. Is that right,Michael? I
Michael Moran (32:13):
remember Nike 66 Because obviously England's
victory in the world. I don'trecall the flood of followers.
So this
Julian Bishop (32:21):
was an enormous tragedy for Florence and
obviously a tragedy for loversof art all around the world. And
we had these 1000s of peopleoverseas, Anjali de la del
fango, that they call the mudangels that came to the city to
volunteer their help in tryingto rescue all of these pieces of
art that have been submergedunder water and sewage of mud
(32:44):
for days on end. The museumtalked about you know, how they
restored this art. And I saythat in the past tense, but
they're still restoring some ofthese pieces of art. Yeah. Are
you talking about that? Willtake many decades, particularly
that very foolishly? There weresome things you think why the
hell did you do that theequivalent of the British, the
(33:06):
British Library or the USLibrary of Congress that, you
know, they've got a librarythere, which houses all of
Italy's books, they put most oftheir rare books in the
basement. So unless thefloodwaters came in millions of
manuscripts that were submergedonto water, and they are still
decades away from completing therestoration of those of those
(33:29):
manuscripts, and indeed, butsome of the works of art took 40
or 50 years to restore, they hadto wait for new tolerant
technology to improve to be ableto restore the wooden crucifix
or Vasari's last supper orwhatever. So yes, I liked that
museum. No one's ever heard ofit. I hadn't heard of it. I only
went to it because it was on afree ticket that I had. And it
(33:50):
was a surprise, I thought, agreat museum. It's not greater
than the offense See, or, youknow, some of the other museums
in Florence. But it was a verybig surprise to me. And I love
that museum. I probably visited200 museums, two years. Yeah.
Even more, I don't know. So I
Michael Moran (34:08):
don't know, you could talk a long time on
museums but very conscious oftime. So I want to draw us to a
close thinking sort of so. Soobviously, I'd like you to say a
few words around why the readersshould buy your book and how
they can buy your book, but sortof give me an overview of three
ways to describe your bookJulian.
Julian Bishop (34:29):
Well, that's a difficult one, isn't it? I mean,
I Why don't you give me threewords, what what words would you
use to describe the book? It's
Michael Moran (34:37):
eclectic. So it's, it's thought provoking
much more than one word ofcourse, but yeah, sort of. It
stimulates it stimulates. And Iwas one word, I think he must be
the winner is I was intrigued orit inspires you to think Well, I
would like to go there. Or Iwould, I wish I'd seen that
(35:00):
door. I'd like to see that. So.
So I do think it's one of thesebooks I was with somebody read
your, your, your first book onTuesday night and he said, he
read the book. And then as aresult of that he got several
the places that you recommended.
And I think this has to say,there's a whole series of
places. I would like to go tosee that, or I wish I'd seen
(35:22):
that.
Julian Bishop (35:23):
Yeah. What's really interesting is that the
ways you've written to describeit, are actually probably what I
would say as well, I would usedifferent words, I would say,
educational, yeah, will be oneof my words, entertaining, or be
another because I do try toentertain. And then I think,
fundamentally, the book is stilla travel book, which I hope will
(35:45):
inspire people to visitdifferent places and see new
things and meet new people. Andeven if it's not the ones in my
book, it could be somethingcompletely different. Take
yourself out of your comfortzone, go and meet some people
who are unlike you, who livedifferent lives and try and
understand them. Because you'reenormously rich, enriched by
that. Yeah, so interesting. Theway you describe it will be I
(36:07):
mean, we use slightly differentwords, but there are basically
the same thing.
Michael Moran (36:11):
And I do like the key message around, but most of
it wills very big place. Andthere's a natural tendency to
stick within the things you'refamiliar with. I think you're
encouraging people to go and seethings that you're not familiar
with, because it will enrichenrich your life. How did they
buy your book, then Julian,
Julian Bishop (36:27):
so number of places, the easiest one and then
the one which shells almost allof the books is Amazon. So if
you go on to your Amazon site,you search my name, Julian
bishop, and are we there yet,which is the title of the book,
my book should come up first,and you can buy it in an ebook
form you can buy it in paperbackor you can buy it in hardback.
(36:47):
So that's probably the easiestway to buy it if I think it will
make a good Christmas presentfor people give it to somebody
who you think might enjoy thethe stories and the themes of
the book. And I hope you enjoyit. And I look forward to
engaging with people and andtalking to people about their
perspectives of you know, oncethey've read it, and hearing
(37:08):
what they have to say and theirdifferent views.
Michael Moran (37:10):
Obviously, that I'm not on commission listeners,
I can endorse books and say withthose famous words is a right,
riveting read. A right rivetingread so
Unknown (37:23):
and that's hard for you to say it is
Michael Moran (37:25):
so easy for you to say it's hard for me to say
Unknown (37:29):
so, you're gonna say it's goodbye from me and
Michael Moran (37:32):
he's goodbye from me. And it's goodbye from him
Unknown (37:48):
got lazy
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