Episode Transcript
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Don (00:00):
There's a profound beauty that exists in the text like
(00:04):
nothing else I've everencountered.
It's probably the only reasonI've maintained my faith for as
long as I have, is that I havefound such a deep beauty in this
timeless storytelling of a Godwho gives all the power to the
people to bring about goodness,hope, and justice,
Tana (00:24):
Hello and welcome back to Ancient Jesus Future Faith.
This is the start of seasonthree.
Uh, we're back after a littlebit of a break.
For today, it is just Don andTana.
I'm gonna refer to myself in thethird person.
Oh,
Don (00:43):
we're in season three, so now all of a sudden we can
start, uh, referring toourselves.
Yeah,
Tana (00:46):
I was gonna say Tana.
Don (00:48):
Thanks.
Well, Don's really happy to behere.
Tana (00:52):
All I can think of is Brooklyn 99.
When Terry, like Terry alwayssays, you know, Terry loves
yogurt, you know, he talks abouthimself in the third person.
But anyway.
That's neither here nor there.
And, uh, great start to season
Don (01:04):
three.
Pretty sure everyone iscompletely enraptured with the
discussion already.
Tana (01:09):
Today we're gonna be talking about Brooklyn 99 and
other things written by MichaelSchur um,
Don (01:14):
no, the Bible that we're gonna talk about was not
written, not written by Michael
Tana (01:17):
Schur okay, so for real, today we are going to talk
about, um, Matthew.
Five, 17 through 20.
And this is the part where wetalk about fulfilling the law or
(01:38):
abolishing the law.
This idea that Jesus fulfilledthe law.
Um, and so I'm gonna read thatfirst and then we're gonna talk
a little bit about what we havethought.
It has meant in the past.
And then we're gonna dive in andkind of break it down.
So, um, I am reading from theJewish annotated New Testament,
(02:00):
which is, oh, it's based on thenew revised standard version.
It,
Don (02:02):
it actually is the new revised standard version.
Okay.
The only thing that is differentis that, It has annotations,
it's annotated by Jewishscholars and it's, I highly
recommend it if you're lookingfor a New Testament and what
you've heard on our podcastinterests you or intrigues you.
The beauty of this New Testamentis that it's Jewish scholars.
(02:23):
It's not Messianic scholars.
Mm-hmm.
It's not Christians who findJudaism interesting scholars.
It is Jewish scholars who arenot Christian, uh, giving input
and annotations.
Connected to other sacred textswithin Judaism, as well as
thoughts from history.
So, fantastic.
(02:43):
Yeah.
Highly recommended.
Tana (02:44):
I, I really enjoy it.
It's, um, the annotations are,are very, very
Don (02:49):
good, but as of right now, we're just reading the N R
Tana (02:50):
S V.
That is correct.
All right.
I'm not gonna read all theannotations.
All right, so, uh, Matthew five17 through 20.
Do not think that I have come toabolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish, butto fulfill.
For truly, I tell you, untilheaven and earth pass away, not
one letter, not one stroke of aletter will pass from the law
(03:13):
until all is accomplished.
Therefore, whoever breaks one ofthe least of these commandments
and teaches others to do thesame will be called least in the
kingdom of heaven.
But whoever does them andteaches them will be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness exceeds that of
the scribes and Pharisees, youwill never enter the kingdom of
heaven.
(03:33):
So, um, Don, I wanted to startoff with kind of talking about
how we typically tend to readthis.
Yeah.
Don (03:42):
That's a, that's a loaded passage.
Yeah.
In a lot of churches.
Tana (03:45):
Yeah.
Did you wanna talk or do youwant me to Go ahead.
Okay.
So for me, growing up, it's,it's interesting.
It's interesting because it's,it starts off saying, do not
think that I have come toabolish the law.
(04:05):
But that's pretty much exactlywhat I was taught growing up.
The, yeah.
That Jesus fulfilled the law.
Um, Jesus basically, that Jesusmade Torah and almost all of the
Old Testament, except for like10 Commandments, um, he made,
(04:26):
made, made it all kind of nulland void.
Don (04:30):
Yeah, that's.
I think a lot of pastors whohave, who have taught on this, I
think a lot of people who haveread scholarship or have read on
this passage, they wouldprobably nuance it and say that
Jesus didn't abolish it, he justmade it no longer necessary or a
(04:52):
prerequisite for salvation.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Um, although I would say that'show they would nuance it, but
they would behave more so as theabolished.
Right.
That him, oh, that's OldTestament.
And that's when God was mean andharsh and angry and Jesus came
along and, and now God is kindand compassionate, merciful so.
(05:16):
It still carries that same, theweight of abolishing as in it
was bad and now we havesomething better.
But I think if you put them onthe spot, they would attempt to
nuance it to say no.
Jesus just, uh, handled the, uh,attributes of the Torah, the
(05:36):
attributes of the Hebrew Biblein such a way that, um, they no
longer need.
Us to follow those things andthen we would stand around and
argue that we still need the 10commandments in our classrooms
and courthouses, even though,yeah.
Oops.
Uh, we believe it was, uh,necessary for fulfillment.
Tana (05:56):
Yeah, that's actually something I wanted to ask about.
I didn't know if you knew kindof how this historically
happened.
Um, But it had, it always wasinteresting to me.
So I grew up believing likethere were these 10 commandments
and that it was this kind ofstandalone thing, um, in, in the
(06:21):
Bible, right?
Yeah.
Don (06:23):
And you grew up Catholic, so your 10 commandments are
actually different than theJewish.
Oh yeah.
That's right.
And it's not that it's the samepassage, it's just that you
number them differently.
Like, I don't believeCatholicism takes, uh, Uh, that,
that God is one as the firstcommandment.
I think that's the difference.
I don't know.
You know
Tana (06:42):
what?
I've, I've so long that I don'tremember.
Like, remember it was, you'rebad Catholic.
I am.
Um, I, I remember that it wasdifferent cuz I remember when I
moved from Catholicism toProtestantism, I guess, um, it,
you know, it was different, butI don't remember why.
But, um, in all, in all honesty,I don't remember.
(07:05):
I don't recall, I could bewrong, but I don't recall us
spending very much time inExodus.
We did a little bit of thecreation stuff in Genesis, um,
and if
Don (07:16):
you did do Exodus it was probably as a monolith like.
The Red Sea, the
Tana (07:21):
wandering, yes, yes.
It was that stuff.
It was that story.
High level Sunday school stuff.
Right.
But I don't think I even knewthat there were, was it 613?
Don (07:32):
Yes.
I mean, that's what Maimonidesin, uh, medieval times, I
believe it was.
Uh, numbered them.
Numbered them.
Okay.
So prior to Maimonides, therewasn't a.
There wasn't like a list of thenumber of commandments.
Mm-hmm.
And then, uh, you know, maybe heliked counting.
He had an abacus that he wantedto get more use out of, so he
(07:55):
decided to count and numberthem.
Tana (07:56):
Sure.
But they're all there in a ex,like there's a bunch of rules,
you know,
Don (08:02):
throughout, throughout the tour, throughout Exodus.
Yes.
There are, there's hundredsYeah.
Of commands.
And
Tana (08:07):
I, I just, I don't think I was even aware of that for, I
don't, I don't even know howlong.
Um, definitely not until wellinto adulthood.
And so I guess my question is,uh, why those 10?
Like why, why say pretty muchlike, oh, we don't need to do
all this stuff because of Jesus,except for these 10, you have to
(08:30):
follow these 10.
Don (08:33):
The, the 10 Commandments are, are weird and they escape
some of the anti Judaism oranti-Semitism at worst.
Of modern Christendom, and Ithink it's because they are so
iconic.
Like it's like the iconicness ofthat story of Mount Sinai of,
(08:56):
you know, Moses coming down with11 commandments, breaking one,
and then they're only being 10.
Oh, wait, no, that was a MelBrooks
Tana (09:05):
film.
No, he had 15.
Oh 15.
Cause there 15 five per tablet.
Oh my bad.
And then he dropped a tablet.
See, but when I'm trying
Don (09:12):
to, trying to do funny pop culture, I fail.
So, but I think it's so iconic.
The Exodus story is whether ornot we like it, um, which we
love it on A J F F, but whetheror not we like it, the, the
story of Moses is so, Importantwithin Christendom, right?
It's ge Moses becomes a, uh,precursor or a hint at Jesus.
(09:38):
And right now I don't hold thatview, right?
I don't hold the view thateverything that happened in the
Old Testament was in order topoint us to Jesus.
I, I kind of view it theopposite direction, that Jesus
is a culmination, or Jesus isthe continuation of all these
great stories, and because hislife matches those other stories
(10:00):
in significant or interestingways, or even just literary
ways, then we can haveconfidence that this is, again,
a continuation and a movement ofGod.
Mm-hmm.
And so, Prophecies that manypeople point to fulfillment of
laws that many people point to.
All of those things are meant togive us confidence that Jesus is
(10:24):
indeed the continuation of thisstory of Israel.
And so therefore, you and I aslisteners to the story, you and
I as partakers of these tales,Um, can have confidence that,
oh, this is a continuation.
The irony is many of us haveused this verse or these verses
(10:46):
mm-hmm.
As kind of a, uh, reboot of the,um, series.
What, what is it called?
Reboot a, when you reboot a,like, spider-Man has had many
reboots, Batman has had manyreboots.
What's that called?
I
Tana (10:59):
thought they just called that a reboot.
Don (11:01):
No, they call it, there's another term that's used there.
Franchise, rebooting thefranchise.
Oh, right.
I see what you're saying.
And so Jesus is kind ofrebooting the franchise of
Yahweh, and that's how it's,that's how it's treated, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That, yeah, those things existedbeforehand.
Mm-hmm.
(11:21):
But now we've kind of figuredout the formula a little bit
better.
Right.
And we know what the audiencereally wants to hear.
Right?
And so we need this character togive a nod.
To the previous things, but thenseparate.
And that's a terrible way toactually approach or think about
Jesus.
(11:41):
In fact, it has led to manytravesties to Judaism or Jews
just in general from at thehands of Christians.
Mm-hmm.
But in addition, it's also robsus of a lot of really great, uh,
previously told, previouslyunderstood, previously believed
stories.
(12:02):
And I think the 10 Commandmentsare one of those pieces that we
hold onto as the nod, right?
Mm-hmm.
That we, we're not gonna get ridof that one.
We're not gonna get rid of thegarden, right?
We're not gonna get rid of the,the 10 Commandments.
We're not gonna get rid of, uh,David and Goliath.
(12:24):
Mm-hmm.
Chronicles we don't really needChronicles, you know, Amos, eh,
whatever.
Right.
Right.
And.
And then we're gonna hold on tothe things, also the prior
things that we can emphasize asa hint at the person that Jesus
is.
So I think that's, that's why wedon't hear the 10 Commandments,
(12:48):
um, beyond, uh, politicaldebates and arguments to keep
them in our classrooms or in ourcourthouses.
Mm-hmm.
And the great irony is, Weactually, I mean, at best we
only want nine of them.
Right.
No one wants Sabbath.
Right.
Um, and the i the idea that wewould keep Sabbath Friday at
(13:11):
sunset to Saturday at sunset,holy is right.
Ridiculous to capitalism.
Right.
Right.
It would bring capitalism to itsknees in some ways.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So, yeah, I think that's whyyou, you really haven't heard it
talked about.
Hmm.
Tana (13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that part ofwhat you said kind of goes to,
um, this thought that if, if, ifJesus had really abolished the
law, so to speak, um, then hewouldn't have followed any of
(13:49):
the, um, continued to follow itwhile he was doing his ministry.
Don (13:56):
Yeah, I think.
To that point, I believe peoplewould say that it wasn't
completely fulfilled till thecross.
Mm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
That, that becomes the lastsacrifice.
I've heard that often, right.
That Jesus's death on the crossis the sacrifice to end
sacrifices.
Mm-hmm.
And again, that's a complicatedconcept.
(14:19):
Because Paul tends to allude tosome of these things.
And what we miss is Paul isoften speaking metaphorically.
And it's interesting, again,depending on the passage, people
are happy for something to beread metaphorically, right.
And then are quick to say, no,this is literal here.
Right, right.
And metaphorical here, Jesus isthe Passover lamb.
(14:42):
Well that's literal.
No it's not.
Jesus did not, uh, you know.
Have Woo.
Um, like Jesus was not literallya lamb.
Uh, and so Jesus was not the,the Seder, uh, sacrifice.
God says in the prophets, I aborhuman sacrifice.
Mm-hmm.
Like basically says that's theworst thing that one can do as
(15:02):
human sacrifice.
Mm-hmm.
But I think there is somethingpowerful when Paul thinks of
this, metaphorically, that hereat the entrance of the Passover,
uh, the time of the, thisholiday.
Jesus is put to death and insome way as the Savior is meant
to stave off the death of theIsraelites.
(15:25):
I think that's a beautifulmetaphor.
Mm-hmm.
I think that that's powerful,but I don't think Paul believed
that Jesus, that no one else hadto give a Passover lamb that
Passover and that no otherPassovers did Paul give.
Or have a, a Passover lamb.
Of course he did.
Right.
So it's, it's a, it's kind of aninteresting thing, uh, that,
(15:48):
that exists.
So I, we're getting a little bitoff track, but I, I think we
just need to recognize metaphorversus literal and not pick and
choose when it's, uh, beneficialto us.
Yeah.
Tana (16:00):
I think that's actually one of the largest challenges of
reading and understanding theBible, um, is because I think we
tend to pick and choosemetaphors for the things that
affect us and literal for thethings that we can judge other
people about.
And I,
Don (16:18):
and I wanna be clearer, progressive Christians do this
almost, if not the same amount,maybe even more than
conservative Christians do.
Like we, we'd like to avoidpassages that talk about the
slaughtering of women andchildren, definitely we like to
(16:41):
say, oh, that's a metaphor, whenwe're not using other things in
those areas as metaphor.
And really at the end of theday, what we need as members of
the faithful is just to be, havea consistent hermeneutic, right?
And we need to recognize genre.
We need to recognize author,author intent.
(17:04):
All of those things areimportant.
Context history.
Exactly.
And I know that part of, one ofthe things that, that dissuade
people mm-hmm.
About the Bible is that it's, itfeels archaic and it's
complicated.
And the truth is, it is boththose things.
(17:25):
But if we take the time, Toinvestigate.
We take the time to explore it.
There's a profound beauty thatexists in the text like nothing
else I've ever encountered.
It's probably the only reasonI've maintained my faith for as
long as I have, is that I havefound such a deep beauty in this
(17:46):
timeless storytelling of a Godwho gives all the power to the
people.
To bring about goodness, hope,and justice, whereas the other
gods of the time, the people hadto convince those gods to do
those things.
Hmm.
And what made Israel's story sodifferent is that Israel's God
(18:08):
said, you bring about thosethings.
Hmm.
You care for your neighbor.
You make sure the hungrier fedyou.
Make sure that the widows arecared for.
You.
Make sure justice is served.
You.
Make sure that the Poor's voiceare heard just as much as the
affluent, you overthrow empire.
(18:29):
And do not bend a knee to thepowerful.
And I'll walk with you.
And it's, to me, it's amazing.
So, All of that.
Let's circle back to the topicat hand.
Yes.
So there was a saying withinJudaism mm-hmm.
That we see much more prominentin rabbinic Judaism, which takes
(18:54):
place about a hundred years atRabbinic Judaism basically kind
of becomes a thing around 70 iswhen we start to see it.
Being formed and the reason forit.
Do you know what the reason is?
That Rabbinic Judaism started tobe formed?
The temple is destroyed.
And so up until this moment, oh,the temple was the hub of all
(19:16):
things, and that was the waythat Israel, um, sat at table.
With God.
Mm-hmm.
And therefore had communion withGod was over these sacrifices
that were given as foodofferings.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of the offerings thepeople would eat as well as food
being offered to God.
(19:36):
And so it was sharing a tablewith God, really profound
imagery.
It was, God was your neighborphysically.
You could see God's house outyour window.
Right.
Like, and you could go over andvisit.
Multiple times a day.
Uh, sometimes God asked you tobring some flour with you to, so
some cakes could be made andthen you all enjoyed them
(19:57):
together, and I'm being a littlebit, you know, nonchalant there,
but that, that really kind ofwas the essence, right?
We've talked about during, uh,Hanukkah that the lighting of
the menorah that took placeduring Hanukkah was so important
because it showed that God washome.
(20:17):
Right.
When the menorah was out, it waskind of like, uh, our front door
or our, our, our porch light.
You know, if the porch light'soff at Halloween when kids are
coming around trick or tree andthe porch light off means buzz
off kids, no one's home.
Mm-hmm.
Or no one's interested inhanding you candy.
If the porch light's on, it'slike we're home and we're
(20:39):
accepting visitors.
Right, right.
And so I thought the porch
Tana (20:43):
light being off meant, please go ahead and toilet paper
my house.
You grew up in a differentneighborhood.
Don (20:50):
So, so this, this moment when the temple was destroyed,
the, the, the menorah isextinguished.
Now we often think of a menorahas just like the little thing
that sits in our window.
Sure.
But the menorah at the templewas huge.
It was the light of the world.
Right?
Because the temple was on themount.
Mm-hmm.
And when that was lit, it was, Ithink it was like 60 feet high.
(21:11):
I forget what the measurementsare.
True.
And then it had these, thesetorches at the top, and it was
the light of the world.
You could see it from Wow.
Everywhere.
And so think about that when,you know, John refers to Jesus
as the light of the world.
Light of the world.
Yeah.
Um, God's presence here.
And so when that wasextinguished, when it was
destroyed, um, By the, um, wasit the Hasian that destroyed it
(21:36):
at that point?
But when, uh, you know, theMaccabees were rebuilding and
reclaimed the temple, right.
Yeah.
They didn't have enough oil.
Right.
But they decided that it wasmore important even if the, the
torches went out to show God'sstill here.
Tana (21:52):
Well, and that you talking about the scale of the Menorah
mm-hmm.
Makes that story.
Even that much more impressivecuz can you imagine the amount
of oil?
Oh, 100%.
It wasn't like this
Don (22:04):
little No, no.
I think we think of like, youknow, like a little lantern,
right?
There wasn't enough oil to keepthat lid.
Right.
You know, we're talking likevats of oil.
Right.
And that there was only enoughfor a day.
Right.
And they decided to light itanyhow.
And then the miracle of Hanukkahis that it stayed lit until the
oils were able to be reproduced.
(22:24):
Um, Bezo was a very specific wayto make the oils for the
menorah.
So I don't even know why it wentdown that path, but boy, it was
fun.
Can, can
Tana (22:34):
I comment on something on that?
Please, please.
Uh, the, I, I don't know why Inever realized how large that
was.
The, that menorah and for me,that is so much more, that's so
much more beautiful.
It's such vivid, vivid imagery,uh, for Jesus being the light of
(22:56):
the world like.
Every time I've ever heard thatin the past, it just felt very
like, um, Abstract.
Mm-hmm.
Like, oh, Jesus is the light ofthe world.
Oh, sure.
You know, oh, he's the light.
You know, like, I don't know.
There was like nothing physicalto attach it to.
Right.
And you talking about thatmenorah being the light of the
(23:17):
world and like how gigantic itwas and like, just how everybody
would see it.
Like, to me that makes that,that, um, statement so much more
powerful because, I have like animage to attach it to.
Yeah.
And it's also meaningful becauseit would've had a very tactile
meaning to the Jewish people.
Don (23:39):
Absolutely.
And it should to us today.
Right?
Because there was somethingpowerful that when imagine this
and, and we might have to do apart two that actually deals
with the subject that we aresupposed to do.
But, but imagine this, you are.
You are oppressed by Rome.
Rome is occupying you.
Mm-hmm.
Yet, any day that you looked up,you saw that God was still home.
(24:05):
Oh dang.
Right.
You saw that God was still thereand I don't, that doesn't answer
a lot of really heavy anddifficult philosophical
questions of why is God justsitting there doing nothing?
Sure.
Uh, but there was hope, right?
Yeah.
This, this picture of hope.
And then when, when Jesus comesaround, John says, Jesus is a
(24:29):
light of the world.
He is also the hope.
Yeah.
And we can put our hope in thatjust in the same way.
And many people believe Johnwrote the book of John was
written after the destruction ofthe temple.
So even more important Oh yeah.
To say that Jesus was the lightof the world.
Right.
And this becomes really powerfuland then, To me, this, this
hearkens back to the discussionwe had about mobile sanctuaries
(24:53):
that we love to keep bringingup.
Mm-hmm.
Is Jesus says, you are thelight.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And we've changed that.
If we, we made a nuance there ina lot of Christian circles where
it says, let light shine throughyou.
No, that's not what the Biblesays.
Mm-hmm.
The Bible says you are thelight.
Mm.
Not, not that you are some kindof light a vessel.
(25:15):
Yeah.
Not that you're a lantern thatYeah.
And Jesus' light is shiningthrough you, but that you become
the light.
And so we become the hope in adarkened world.
We become the hope in a placethat feels hopeless.
We, uh, as the faithful are allthese flickers of light, uh, in
oppression.
I just believe that this wouldbe profound if this is how we
(25:39):
viewed our job.
Hmm.
Right.
Earlier I had mentioned that theuniqueness of Yahweh, the
uniqueness of the Hebrew people,the uniqueness that becomes
Judaism is that the God thatthey worshiped, empowered the
people to bring about the hopeand justice.
(26:01):
Yeah.
And so we see that again withJesus.
And the sad part to me is thatfor many of my experiences in
the church, We handed that backto God.
Yeah.
And said, that's too difficult.
Yeah.
That's too much for me to carry.
So God, can you take care of thepoor?
(26:21):
Right.
God, can you take care of thesick God?
Would you handle justice?
Hmm.
Because this is, this is alittle much for me.
Yeah.
Tana (26:30):
Well, and to me, that really goes back to Jesus
fulfilling the law, like Jesusis the embodiment.
Of it.
Um, and I think we tend to likelook at the law or the
commandments as like rules youhave to follow.
And they may be even consideredlike oppressive, but I don't
(26:52):
think that's how a lot of it wasmeant to be.
It was meant to create abeautiful way of living.
Don (26:59):
Yes.
And in fact, the reason Jesus'life is so profound.
Is because he followed thecommands of God perfectly.
Mm-hmm.
According to tradition.
Mm-hmm.
I, I find it astounding that aperson, an individual Jesus, and
(27:22):
I'm not saying anything aboutJesus' divinity in calling,
referring to Jesus as a person.
Mm-hmm.
But Jesus had a reputation ofliving out Torah perfectly.
Mm-hmm.
And we're talking about him 2000years later.
Mm-hmm.
In fact, his reputation has onlygrown since then.
(27:44):
Right.
Um, now his reputation of hisfollowers have diminished over
time, but Jesus' reputation hasonly grown.
The irony is that if you want toemulate, if I wanted to emulate
LeBron James, I'm a huge calvesfan, born in Cleveland.
LeBron James.
(28:04):
I, I love LeBron James, but thatman's regimen every day to
perform at the level that hedoes still at in his late
thirties, almost 40 year oldbody and is still one of the
better players in the N B A.
I would look at him and not go,I could, I should probably only
(28:25):
have to do about a third of whathe does to be that good.
Tana (28:30):
Yeah.
Don (28:32):
And it's kind of what we've done.
Gosh.
It, it's kind of what we've donewith Jesus.
Yeah.
Right.
Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled the law, whichmeans that he upheld it and
everything he does bringsfullness to it.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So maybe that's the better placeto start.
And I started to allude to it.
There was a tradition thatbecame more popular after the
temple was destroyed.
That's how I got segued.
(28:54):
And uh, it was.
A rabbi might be confrontedmm-hmm.
Uh, in early rabbinic Judaism,probably through late, maybe
even still to this day.
Okay.
A rabbi might be confronted byan interpretation they have of
Torah or Talmud, or any of thewritings.
Okay.
And the response of the rabbi orthe, the critique of the rabbi
(29:19):
would be you're abolishing thelaw.
Oh, okay.
Which means that.
You're taking the Torah andyou're twisting it, you're
taking the Torah, and uh, youare saying it's not significant
or it's not important.
Basically, it is exactly how wewould think of abolishing.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
(29:39):
So I would say Christianity hasabolished the Sabbath law.
Hmm.
Right.
We have taken the concept toSabbath.
Yeah.
And said, Right.
Right.
I think we could point to a lotof laws in Torah, but Sure.
Sabbath is one I think that notmany people are gonna debate
against me on.
Right, right.
Yeah.
That the idea of not working theidea, so even if you've
(30:03):
converted the Sabbath to Sundaymm-hmm.
Uh, pun intended there, um, evenif you converted the Sabbath to
Sunday, the idea of still notworking.
Not forcing anyone else to work.
Mm-hmm.
Not, uh, participating incommerce.
Mm-hmm.
All of those things.
Modern Christendom still islike, eh, right.
(30:26):
Not necessary.
Right.
That would be abolishing thelaw.
Mm-hmm.
Fulfilling the law.
Mm-hmm.
Would be, uh, recognizing that alaw is stated in a certain way
and making it either moredifficult to follow.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but by more difficultsaying, not saying, and
(30:47):
therefore not this, we talkedabout it a few episodes ago.
I know it's been a little whilebecause of our break, but we
talked about the idea of whenJesus says you've heard it said,
uh, do not murder.
Right.
I see.
I tell you.
Yeah.
Do not even hate someone.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Because Jesus is, and Jesuswould argue that is fulfilling
the law.
Mm-hmm.
Not abolishing the law, becauseif we remove hate from our
(31:09):
heart, then we're not gonnamurder someone.
Right.
And so he would argue becausesomeone might say, well then
you're abolishing the law bysaying it's about hatred.
And he'd say, no, I'm fulfillingthe law.
Because if you don't hatesomeone, you're not gonna murder
someone.
Right.
Yeah.
So that's the significantdifference between abolishing
versus fulfilling.
And so Jesus here is answering acritique about whether or not he
(31:34):
is telling people to no longerfollow Torah.
Is he telling people to nolonger, uh, hold the commands of
God in the high esteem that theyhad been?
And Jesus' response is, I didnot come.
To abolish the law.
Mm-hmm.
I came to fulfill it.
Mm-hmm.
(31:55):
This is significant because withthat statement and what we know
it has had become to mean, andwas part of regular conversation
amongst the sages mm-hmm.
Was that Jesus was actuallysaying that he believed that we
were to continue mm-hmm.
Following Torah.
Mm-hmm.
He wasn't getting rid of it, hejust fulfilled it.
(32:17):
And so now let's take a look at.
When we hear fulfilled, what wehave chosen to hear that as is,
and therefore it's complete.
Right?
It's, we don't need to do it.
He completed the law, right?
Like it was a test and God wasjust waiting for someone to get
a hundred percent on, and thenGod was like, all right, we're
good.
Right?
Um, but we often do things.
(32:39):
We, let's see.
Can you think of an example ofsomething where you have to jump
through a bunch of hoops inorder to be.
Uh, eligible for something,
Tana (32:52):
um, grad school.
Don (32:53):
Okay.
So, so tell me some of the hoopsyou have to jump through.
Tana (32:56):
Uh, you have to, well, uh, you'd have to have a bachelor's
degree.
Okay.
To go get into grad school.
Uh, you'd have to take the gre.
Okay.
Um, if you, it was a morespecialized, like maybe if it
was like law school, you have totake the LSAT or whatever.
Um, you have to apply, you haveto write an essay.
Don (33:15):
Um, so you did grad school?
Yeah.
And then you did your PhD.
Is that still considered gradschool?
That's still grad, consideredgrad school.
Oh, to me they're, they're just,they're all, they stack.
So you did grad school?
Yeah.
Did you fulfill therequirements?
I got my degree,
Tana (33:30):
so I guess so.
Don (33:32):
So thankfully I now could just go get my graduate degree.
Because you fulfilled therequirements.
Yeah.
I'm just gonna
Tana (33:40):
start handing'em out, just tossing'em out to everybody.
Don (33:44):
So, but that's, that is, that's the significant
difference, right?
Right.
Is that we read Jesus fulfilledthe law and therefore we don't
have to be, as he handled it,you go ahead.
Whereas for you mm-hmm.
You fulfilled the requirementsto go to grad school.
(34:05):
But that doesn't have any impacton anyone else.
I mean, it does have impactbecause like to use things that
maybe are still important butnot, maybe aren't as significant
as in the past.
You are a woman.
Mm-hmm.
Who is able to fulfill thosethings.
Mm-hmm.
And get an advanced degree andeven a PhD, and that's
important.
Mm-hmm.
(34:25):
But, It doesn't alleviate, itmight add to the story, it might
add to the history that youfulfilled those things, but it
doesn't change it for the nextperson in, in major fundamental
Tana (34:37):
ways, you know?
So this is making me think aboutsomething I looked up last
night.
Um, I didn't quite see aconnection before, but now I do.
So you're, what you're basicallysaying is that, There's still,
it's still an active process.
There's still action you have totake.
Right.
So, um, you know how much I lovethe apostolic polyglot.
(35:00):
Yes.
Um, do you wanna explain tofolks what that is?
I was actually going to ask youto explain.
Sure.
Can you just explain quickly?
Don (35:08):
So the apostolic polyglot is a, is a Bible and you can
find it other ways that are not.
This particular version, we justhappen to be very fond of this
version.
So it's an interlinear biblethat has both the English and
the Greek, uh, in the same line.
So you can see how the Bible hasbeen translated.
(35:30):
Makes it a little bumpy attimes, but it allows you to see
how it's translated in thisparticular version.
It, uh, it allows you to alsoread the Septuagint, which is
the Greek translation of theHebrew Bible, so it has the
entire Septuagint and the entireNew Testament, all with English
and Greek above and below, andthen it has one of the best.
(35:55):
Uh, lexicons mm-hmm.
In the back mm-hmm.
That really help you to connectverses, passages and concepts.
This whole package is just topnotch.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I think I have probablygiven away a couple dozen of
them.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I don't know, I shouldprobably, uh, have some part
ownership in this.
Yeah.
Really printing press.
(36:16):
Uh, just kidding.
But the apostolic polyglot.
Phenomenal.
Yeah, so go ahead.
Tana (36:22):
Yeah, so I, I love this thing, uh, because, so what you
can do with all of thosewonderful tools wrapped into one
is you can go into the Bibleverse you're reading, and if
there's a word that has beentransla, you know, the English
translation, the word you'regoing, I wonder what that word
actually means, becausetranslation is an active
(36:42):
interpretation and so, You know,it's important to kind of get at
the root of these things.
So I decided to look up what theword"fulfilled" meant.
Right?
Yeah.
So in this, in the Glide, it haslike a little number assigned,
and then in the back you canlook up the number and it has
kind of like, oh, this word is,it can mean like kind of these
(37:03):
couple of things.
And then it gives you everyinstance in which it appears,
Don (37:07):
including the Septuagint.
Tana (37:08):
Yeah And, um, and you've said something before Don, about
the significance of the firsttime.
Right.
Don (37:15):
So there's a tradition in, at least within Rabbinic
Judaism, I don't know if there'sa different rabbinic, but within
Rabbinic Judaism, uh, there's atradition that if you want to
understand how to read a word,you go to the first time it was
used.
And that sets the definition forthe entire Bible.
(37:36):
I, I have a feeling that's notactually literally true.
Mm-hmm.
But it, it has led to profounduh, understanding.
Yeah.
Tana (37:45):
So I went back, I, I looked, I looked up fulfilled,
and uh, the first instance is,it appears in, is Genesis 1 22
when God tells the creatures tofill the water in the sea.
Yes.
And I was totally
Don (38:02):
gonna guess that first I, I was sitting here, so hoping you
were gonna ask me because itcame up in our Luke study that
we were a per, a group of uswere doing.
Oh.
And it came up in the Lukestudy, that same,
Tana (38:14):
so Right, because there's, uh, the birth story, there's
also about Jesus fulfilling andall that stuff.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, so the, I love,and, and at first when I looked
that up last night, I was like,Um hmm.
How does this relate?
But God tells the creatures tofill the water in the sea and
(38:39):
so, and not then stop.
Well, not only that, but itdoesn't say like God filled the
sea with the creatures.
Right.
He told the creatures to fillthe sea.
Yes.
And so that's kind of how I'mthen envisioning this connection
to fulfilling the law.
It's an active process.
It's not something God did.
(38:59):
Or you know, Jesus did, and thenyou just enjoy the fruits of it.
It's like it's, it's active.
You do it right.
Don (39:08):
Yeah.
And it's not ending.
Right.
It continues on, the sea isstill being filled.
Yes.
Probably at a slower pace thanwhat it had been, but it's being
filled.
Right.
So, yeah.
So it's absolutely a wonderfulconnection, Tana.
Thank you.
So I think then what we're leftwith here, Is what then is, does
(39:30):
this mean for us?
And would you mind reading thoseverses again?
Tana (39:38):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the
prophets.
I have come not to abolish, butto fulfill.
I.
For truly, I tell you, untilheaven and earth pass away, not
one letter, not one stroke of aletter will pass from the law
until all is accomplished." Doyou want
Don (39:53):
stop there?
No.
I feel like you read more thanthat earlier.
I
Tana (39:55):
did.
Okay.
"Therefore, whoever breaks oneof the least of these
commandments and teaches othersto do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But whoever does them andteaches them will be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness exceeds that of
the scribes and Pharisees, youwill never enter the kingdom of
(40:15):
heaven."
Don (40:16):
That is a terrifying passage.
Yeah,
Tana (40:19):
that is.
Don (40:21):
And but I think it's, it's also really important.
First of all, who does Jesusrefer to as righteous?
Fair season scribes.
Yeah.
The people that I have mostoften heard ridiculed from
pulpits, Jesus says, arerighteous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is important.
(40:42):
This isn't Jesus.
This is one, again, one of thosemoments where, oh, he was being
metaphorical here.
They weren't really righteous,he was being sarcastic.
No, no.
I don't believe so.
I I think you'd be hard pressedto look at those words.
And pull sarcasm from'em,because then you would have to
say that the other pieces weresarcastic as well.
(41:03):
Yeah.
Or at least leading into it.
Yeah.
Instead, this passage is sayingthat if we continue to teach
people to ignore the laws ofTorah mm-hmm.
That, that's, that's going todiminish the kingdom of heaven.
Yeah.
(41:24):
Uh, and I'm not talking aboutlike this concept of heading off
to the pearly gates.
I'm talking about the kingdom ofheaven.
Jesus said the kingdom of heavenis at hand.
Mm-hmm.
Meaning that we have access toit if we live in such a way that
discourages people from hearingthese laws of justice, these
(41:46):
laws of compassion, these lawsof equity throughout Torah.
Mm-hmm.
And we discourage people fromeven, uh, participating in them.
Mm-hmm.
We're not going to experiencethe kingdom of heaven.
Right.
Yeah.
And again, I want to be clear,I'm talking about now.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not talking about angelwings.
(42:07):
Mm-hmm.
I'm talking about the kingdom ofheaven is breaking out, is what
the Bible says.
The kingdom of heaven isbursting forth and we are called
to light the edge of that growthof the kingdom with the light of
the world.
Mm-hmm.
And the hope that it brings, andwe are supposed to be taking it
out into the world.
Tana (42:28):
So, you know, I told you about how I looked up the word
fulfill.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, well, I shouldprobably also look up abolish.
Yeah.
And what you're talking aboutlike, Being active, all this
stuff.
So, um, you know how I said, uh,there's, when you look up the
definition or you look up theword in the back, there's like a
couple different definitions,right?
Right.
So for abolish it's likedeposed, destroy, but there's,
(42:52):
it's also means rest.
Yes.
And just stop.
Yeah.
And I just, I thought that wasreally interesting because that
also implies that you shouldn't,you NEED to be active.
(43:12):
You shouldn't just rest like,oh, I'm upholding like the law
for me.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Like I am, I am being righteousin a way, but I'm not actively.
Right.
Going out and, and, andfulfilling the law for other
people.
Don (43:29):
It reminds me, I had a conversation with someone, uh, a
couple months ago, and I wastalking about something that was
happening in the news, and theirresponse was, I just, I don't
watch the news.
I just can't take it.
It just stresses me out, and soI am not watching the news
anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(43:50):
And my response to that was,that's why I watch the news.
Yeah.
So I don't rest.
Right.
I don't stop because as amiddle-aged white man, I got a
lot of pre, I got a lot ofbenefits.
Mm-hmm.
(44:10):
I have a lot of privilege.
Mm-hmm.
And it would be easy if I cutout the noise.
And what's it called in musicwhen there's no noise?
Arrest?
Arrest.
Look at me that when I cut outthe noise, it allows me to rest.
Yeah.
And resting with a purpose isdifferent than Sure.
(44:35):
Yeah.
Than just stopping.
Yeah.
And I think what we've allowedthis verse and this passage to
do, mm-hmm.
Is allow us to just stop.
Mm-hmm.
Tana (44:47):
Jesus fulfilled it.
So we're done.
Don (44:49):
And therefore we have been in many ways when it comes to
equity, justice, mercy,compassion, uh, care for the
other, acceptance, all thosethings we have rested and asked
God to handle it.
Yeah.
Not realizing that what we'vecontributed to is the abolishing
(45:15):
of God's love letter.
Hmm.
To humanity.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't blame people forrejecting what this faith has
become because yeah, this faithhas become about being, having
the right knowledge instead ofabout having the right way of
(45:39):
viewing the world and others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tana (45:47):
Well, that feels like a good place to stop for today.
I feel like there's actually somuch more we could say, but then
we would just get on more rabbittrails and then we'd have like a
three hour podcast, uh, episode,so Sounds awesome.
Any final thoughts to share?
Don?
Don (46:08):
I just want to make sure that we're very clear about,
about something particular tome.
I think that we can often feel,you mentioned 613 commands as
counted by Maimonides right?
In Acts 15, it's the story thatwe hear as the Jerusalem
(46:29):
Council.
In Acts 15, they're trying todetermine, the Jewish apostles
are trying to determine, ohshit, we have all of these
Gentiles coming in.
Uh, what are we supposed toteach them?
What are we supposed to tellthem?
What do they have to do andagree to before they can become
(46:50):
a part of us?
Right.
Right.
And I get it.
That's really complicatedbecause up until this moment in
history, Judaism was never anevangelistic, and I don't even
think to this day, is consideredan evangelistic uh, faith.
Mm-hmm.
And so now I think you have thishuge influx of gentiles.
Because of Paul.
Mm-hmm.
(47:10):
Particularly believes that nowthat Jesus has come this and
believes that Jesus is thesavior, that the, that God's
kingdom being physically set upon the earth, God's throne,
literally in Jerusalem, that theworld is about to change
drastically with God's physicalpresence, not just, uh, menorah.
(47:31):
Mm-hmm.
And because of that, all thesegentiles are being brought into
the fold.
The apostles are worried aboutthis, but what are they gonna do
about Torah?
What are they gonna do aboutSabbath?
How are they going to know whatthey're supposed to, they can
eat what they can't eat.
They're worried about all thesethings.
And after a debate at theJerusalem Council comes back,
(47:52):
let them just follow these, andthey, they give, I think, four
or five, which we call the NoahHyde Laws.
Mm.
Of these four or five things.
Mm.
If they follow those, that'll beenough.
But that's not a period there.
It might be, but it's not theend of the conversation.
Mm-hmm.
What we often stop, and by theway, we don't even do those
(48:14):
first, those four or five.
Um, I encourage people to golook at Acts 15 and see what
those are, and then really parsethrough and see if, if you're
doing at least those minimums,but then it says kind of almost
as an afterthought, Becauseevery Sabbath, they will sit in
(48:35):
the synagogue and hear Mosestaught.
Mm.
Which implies they don't need tohave it all figured out today.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
They don't have to know all 613laws, although they wouldn't
have caught numbered it thatway, then they don't need to
know all of the commands mm-hmm.
In order to be a part of this.
Mm-hmm.
(48:56):
Instead, They just need to dothese few things, and most of
those, I would argue, are veryjustice minded and mm-hmm uh,
really eliminated them fromattending a certain feast, uh,
that the gentiles had that were,was horrific.
Um, and so Guild Feast is whatthey were, and this eliminates
(49:17):
them from attending Guild feastsand, and then just says, because
they're going to hear Mosestaught, they'll learn it over
time.
It's not that they have to beperfect.
Mm.
And this is where I thinksometimes we can feel daunted,
um, by these, this idea of like,so what are you guys saying that
(49:39):
we need to follow all the lawsof Torah?
And my argument for that is webelieve that Jesus did.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And we believed he lived themost perfect life.
Yeah.
So shouldn't we try his regimen?
Right.
Shouldn't we at least considerthose things?
And it might take us the rest ofour life to add a handful, but
(50:03):
would we not be better off forit?
Would our neighbors not bebetter off for it?
Would the world not be betteroff for it?
And what does it hurt to try?
Right?
That's it.
Yeah.
1, 1, 1 step at a time.
Uh, no one needs to take thisall on at once.
In Acts 15, they said, no, weshould not make them take
everything on all at one time.
(50:25):
Yeah.
And neither should we.
So yeah.
Do
Tana (50:28):
you not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief?
Don (50:32):
Yes.
There you go.
Tana (50:33):
What is it?
Walk humbly now.
Show mercy.
Now do justice now.
Yes.
I'm sure.
I didn't say the exact exactlyproperly, but I love the
sentiment.
Yes, I agree.
So, well, thank you all forjoining us.
Um, I just want to, uh, inviteyou if you are interested in
continuing the conversation, ifyou wanna leave us any comments,
(50:56):
if you have any questions aboutwhat we talked about, we are on
pretty much all the socials.
Um, you can, you know, eithersend us messages if you wanna
private conversation or you cancomment and we can continue the
convo there.
Uh, we are on YouTube,youtube.com/@ajff uh, our
website is ajffpodcast.com andif you'd like to support the
(51:19):
work we're doing, you can go tobuymeacoffee.com/ajff and either
become a member or just, uh,leave a little token of support.
So thank you all for supportingus and for listening, and we'll
see you next time.
Don (51:35):
Bye.
There's a profound beauty that exists in the text like
(00:04):
nothing else I've everencountered.
It's probably the only reasonI've maintained my faith for as
long as I have, is that I havefound such a deep beauty in this
timeless storytelling of a Godwho gives all the power to the
people to bring about goodness,hope, and justice,
Tana (00:24):
Hello and welcome back to Ancient Jesus Future Faith.
This is the start of seasonthree.
Uh, we're back after a littlebit of a break.
For today, it is just Don andTana.
I'm gonna refer to myself in thethird person.
Oh,
Don (00:43):
we're in season three, so now all of a sudden we can
start, uh, referring toourselves.
Yeah,
Tana (00:46):
I was gonna say Tana.
Don (00:48):
Thanks.
Well, Don's really happy to behere.
Tana (00:52):
All I can think of is Brooklyn 99.
When Terry, like Terry alwayssays, you know, Terry loves
yogurt, you know, he talks abouthimself in the third person.
But anyway.
That's neither here nor there.
And, uh, great start to season
Don (01:04):
three.
Pretty sure everyone iscompletely enraptured with the
discussion already.
Tana (01:09):
Today we're gonna be talking about Brooklyn 99 and
other things written by MichaelSchur um,
Don (01:14):
no, the Bible that we're gonna talk about was not
written, not written by Michael
Tana (01:17):
Schur okay, so for real, today we are going to talk
about, um, Matthew.
Five, 17 through 20.
And this is the part where wetalk about fulfilling the law or
(01:38):
abolishing the law.
This idea that Jesus fulfilledthe law.
Um, and so I'm gonna read thatfirst and then we're gonna talk
a little bit about what we havethought.
It has meant in the past.
And then we're gonna dive in andkind of break it down.
So, um, I am reading from theJewish annotated New Testament,
(02:00):
which is, oh, it's based on thenew revised standard version.
It,
Don (02:02):
it actually is the new revised standard version.
Okay.
The only thing that is differentis that, It has annotations,
it's annotated by Jewishscholars and it's, I highly
recommend it if you're lookingfor a New Testament and what
you've heard on our podcastinterests you or intrigues you.
The beauty of this New Testamentis that it's Jewish scholars.
(02:23):
It's not Messianic scholars.
Mm-hmm.
It's not Christians who findJudaism interesting scholars.
It is Jewish scholars who arenot Christian, uh, giving input
and annotations.
Connected to other sacred textswithin Judaism, as well as
thoughts from history.
So, fantastic.
(02:43):
Yeah.
Highly recommended.
Tana (02:44):
I, I really enjoy it.
It's, um, the annotations are,are very, very
Don (02:49):
good, but as of right now, we're just reading the N R
Tana (02:50):
S V.
That is correct.
All right.
I'm not gonna read all theannotations.
All right, so, uh, Matthew five17 through 20.
Do not think that I have come toabolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish, butto fulfill.
For truly, I tell you, untilheaven and earth pass away, not
one letter, not one stroke of aletter will pass from the law
(03:13):
until all is accomplished.
Therefore, whoever breaks one ofthe least of these commandments
and teaches others to do thesame will be called least in the
kingdom of heaven.
But whoever does them andteaches them will be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness exceeds that of
the scribes and Pharisees, youwill never enter the kingdom of
heaven.
(03:33):
So, um, Don, I wanted to startoff with kind of talking about
how we typically tend to readthis.
Yeah.
Don (03:42):
That's a, that's a loaded passage.
Yeah.
In a lot of churches.
Tana (03:45):
Yeah.
Did you wanna talk or do youwant me to Go ahead.
Okay.
So for me, growing up, it's,it's interesting.
It's interesting because it's,it starts off saying, do not
think that I have come toabolish the law.
(04:05):
But that's pretty much exactlywhat I was taught growing up.
The, yeah.
That Jesus fulfilled the law.
Um, Jesus basically, that Jesusmade Torah and almost all of the
Old Testament, except for like10 Commandments, um, he made,
(04:26):
made, made it all kind of nulland void.
Don (04:30):
Yeah, that's.
I think a lot of pastors whohave, who have taught on this, I
think a lot of people who haveread scholarship or have read on
this passage, they wouldprobably nuance it and say that
Jesus didn't abolish it, he justmade it no longer necessary or a
(04:52):
prerequisite for salvation.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Um, although I would say that'show they would nuance it, but
they would behave more so as theabolished.
Right.
That him, oh, that's OldTestament.
And that's when God was mean andharsh and angry and Jesus came
along and, and now God is kindand compassionate, merciful so.
(05:16):
It still carries that same, theweight of abolishing as in it
was bad and now we havesomething better.
But I think if you put them onthe spot, they would attempt to
nuance it to say no.
Jesus just, uh, handled the, uh,attributes of the Torah, the
(05:36):
attributes of the Hebrew Biblein such a way that, um, they no
longer need.
Us to follow those things andthen we would stand around and
argue that we still need the 10commandments in our classrooms
and courthouses, even though,yeah.
Oops.
Uh, we believe it was, uh,necessary for fulfillment.
Tana (05:56):
Yeah, that's actually something I wanted to ask about.
I didn't know if you knew kindof how this historically
happened.
Um, But it had, it always wasinteresting to me.
So I grew up believing likethere were these 10 commandments
and that it was this kind ofstandalone thing, um, in, in the
(06:21):
Bible, right?
Yeah.
Don (06:23):
And you grew up Catholic, so your 10 commandments are
actually different than theJewish.
Oh yeah.
That's right.
And it's not that it's the samepassage, it's just that you
number them differently.
Like, I don't believeCatholicism takes, uh, Uh, that,
that God is one as the firstcommandment.
I think that's the difference.
I don't know.
You know
Tana (06:42):
what?
I've, I've so long that I don'tremember.
Like, remember it was, you'rebad Catholic.
I am.
Um, I, I remember that it wasdifferent cuz I remember when I
moved from Catholicism toProtestantism, I guess, um, it,
you know, it was different, butI don't remember why.
But, um, in all, in all honesty,I don't remember.
(07:05):
I don't recall, I could bewrong, but I don't recall us
spending very much time inExodus.
We did a little bit of thecreation stuff in Genesis, um,
and if
Don (07:16):
you did do Exodus it was probably as a monolith like.
The Red Sea, the
Tana (07:21):
wandering, yes, yes.
It was that stuff.
It was that story.
High level Sunday school stuff.
Right.
But I don't think I even knewthat there were, was it 613?
Don (07:32):
Yes.
I mean, that's what Maimonidesin, uh, medieval times, I
believe it was.
Uh, numbered them.
Numbered them.
Okay.
So prior to Maimonides, therewasn't a.
There wasn't like a list of thenumber of commandments.
Mm-hmm.
And then, uh, you know, maybe heliked counting.
He had an abacus that he wantedto get more use out of, so he
(07:55):
decided to count and numberthem.
Tana (07:56):
Sure.
But they're all there in a ex,like there's a bunch of rules,
you know,
Don (08:02):
throughout, throughout the tour, throughout Exodus.
Yes.
There are, there's hundredsYeah.
Of commands.
And
Tana (08:07):
I, I just, I don't think I was even aware of that for, I
don't, I don't even know howlong.
Um, definitely not until wellinto adulthood.
And so I guess my question is,uh, why those 10?
Like why, why say pretty muchlike, oh, we don't need to do
all this stuff because of Jesus,except for these 10, you have to
(08:30):
follow these 10.
Don (08:33):
The, the 10 Commandments are, are weird and they escape
some of the anti Judaism oranti-Semitism at worst.
Of modern Christendom, and Ithink it's because they are so
iconic.
Like it's like the iconicness ofthat story of Mount Sinai of,
(08:56):
you know, Moses coming down with11 commandments, breaking one,
and then they're only being 10.
Oh, wait, no, that was a MelBrooks
Tana (09:05):
film.
No, he had 15.
Oh 15.
Cause there 15 five per tablet.
Oh my bad.
And then he dropped a tablet.
See, but when I'm trying
Don (09:12):
to, trying to do funny pop culture, I fail.
So, but I think it's so iconic.
The Exodus story is whether ornot we like it, um, which we
love it on A J F F, but whetheror not we like it, the, the
story of Moses is so, Importantwithin Christendom, right?
It's ge Moses becomes a, uh,precursor or a hint at Jesus.
(09:38):
And right now I don't hold thatview, right?
I don't hold the view thateverything that happened in the
Old Testament was in order topoint us to Jesus.
I, I kind of view it theopposite direction, that Jesus
is a culmination, or Jesus isthe continuation of all these
great stories, and because hislife matches those other stories
(10:00):
in significant or interestingways, or even just literary
ways, then we can haveconfidence that this is, again,
a continuation and a movement ofGod.
Mm-hmm.
And so, Prophecies that manypeople point to fulfillment of
laws that many people point to.
All of those things are meant togive us confidence that Jesus is
(10:24):
indeed the continuation of thisstory of Israel.
And so therefore, you and I aslisteners to the story, you and
I as partakers of these tales,Um, can have confidence that,
oh, this is a continuation.
The irony is many of us haveused this verse or these verses
(10:46):
mm-hmm.
As kind of a, uh, reboot of the,um, series.
What, what is it called?
Reboot a, when you reboot a,like, spider-Man has had many
reboots, Batman has had manyreboots.
What's that called?
I
Tana (10:59):
thought they just called that a reboot.
Don (11:01):
No, they call it, there's another term that's used there.
Franchise, rebooting thefranchise.
Oh, right.
I see what you're saying.
And so Jesus is kind ofrebooting the franchise of
Yahweh, and that's how it's,that's how it's treated, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That, yeah, those things existedbeforehand.
Mm-hmm.
(11:21):
But now we've kind of figuredout the formula a little bit
better.
Right.
And we know what the audiencereally wants to hear.
Right?
And so we need this character togive a nod.
To the previous things, but thenseparate.
And that's a terrible way toactually approach or think about
Jesus.
(11:41):
In fact, it has led to manytravesties to Judaism or Jews
just in general from at thehands of Christians.
Mm-hmm.
But in addition, it's also robsus of a lot of really great, uh,
previously told, previouslyunderstood, previously believed
stories.
(12:02):
And I think the 10 Commandmentsare one of those pieces that we
hold onto as the nod, right?
Mm-hmm.
That we, we're not gonna get ridof that one.
We're not gonna get rid of thegarden, right?
We're not gonna get rid of the,the 10 Commandments.
We're not gonna get rid of, uh,David and Goliath.
(12:24):
Mm-hmm.
Chronicles we don't really needChronicles, you know, Amos, eh,
whatever.
Right.
Right.
And.
And then we're gonna hold on tothe things, also the prior
things that we can emphasize asa hint at the person that Jesus
is.
So I think that's, that's why wedon't hear the 10 Commandments,
(12:48):
um, beyond, uh, politicaldebates and arguments to keep
them in our classrooms or in ourcourthouses.
Mm-hmm.
And the great irony is, Weactually, I mean, at best we
only want nine of them.
Right.
No one wants Sabbath.
Right.
Um, and the i the idea that wewould keep Sabbath Friday at
(13:11):
sunset to Saturday at sunset,holy is right.
Ridiculous to capitalism.
Right.
Right.
It would bring capitalism to itsknees in some ways.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So, yeah, I think that's whyyou, you really haven't heard it
talked about.
Hmm.
Tana (13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that part ofwhat you said kind of goes to,
um, this thought that if, if, ifJesus had really abolished the
law, so to speak, um, then hewouldn't have followed any of
(13:49):
the, um, continued to follow itwhile he was doing his ministry.
Don (13:56):
Yeah, I think.
To that point, I believe peoplewould say that it wasn't
completely fulfilled till thecross.
Mm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
That, that becomes the lastsacrifice.
I've heard that often, right.
That Jesus's death on the crossis the sacrifice to end
sacrifices.
Mm-hmm.
And again, that's a complicatedconcept.
(14:19):
Because Paul tends to allude tosome of these things.
And what we miss is Paul isoften speaking metaphorically.
And it's interesting, again,depending on the passage, people
are happy for something to beread metaphorically, right.
And then are quick to say, no,this is literal here.
Right, right.
And metaphorical here, Jesus isthe Passover lamb.
(14:42):
Well that's literal.
No it's not.
Jesus did not, uh, you know.
Have Woo.
Um, like Jesus was not literallya lamb.
Uh, and so Jesus was not the,the Seder, uh, sacrifice.
God says in the prophets, I aborhuman sacrifice.
Mm-hmm.
Like basically says that's theworst thing that one can do as
(15:02):
human sacrifice.
Mm-hmm.
But I think there is somethingpowerful when Paul thinks of
this, metaphorically, that hereat the entrance of the Passover,
uh, the time of the, thisholiday.
Jesus is put to death and insome way as the Savior is meant
to stave off the death of theIsraelites.
(15:25):
I think that's a beautifulmetaphor.
Mm-hmm.
I think that that's powerful,but I don't think Paul believed
that Jesus, that no one else hadto give a Passover lamb that
Passover and that no otherPassovers did Paul give.
Or have a, a Passover lamb.
Of course he did.
Right.
So it's, it's a, it's kind of aninteresting thing, uh, that,
(15:48):
that exists.
So I, we're getting a little bitoff track, but I, I think we
just need to recognize metaphorversus literal and not pick and
choose when it's, uh, beneficialto us.
Yeah.
Tana (16:00):
I think that's actually one of the largest challenges of
reading and understanding theBible, um, is because I think we
tend to pick and choosemetaphors for the things that
affect us and literal for thethings that we can judge other
people about.
And I,
Don (16:18):
and I wanna be clearer, progressive Christians do this
almost, if not the same amount,maybe even more than
conservative Christians do.
Like we, we'd like to avoidpassages that talk about the
slaughtering of women andchildren, definitely we like to
(16:41):
say, oh, that's a metaphor, whenwe're not using other things in
those areas as metaphor.
And really at the end of theday, what we need as members of
the faithful is just to be, havea consistent hermeneutic, right?
And we need to recognize genre.
We need to recognize author,author intent.
(17:04):
All of those things areimportant.
Context history.
Exactly.
And I know that part of, one ofthe things that, that dissuade
people mm-hmm.
About the Bible is that it's, itfeels archaic and it's
complicated.
And the truth is, it is boththose things.
(17:25):
But if we take the time, Toinvestigate.
We take the time to explore it.
There's a profound beauty thatexists in the text like nothing
else I've ever encountered.
It's probably the only reasonI've maintained my faith for as
long as I have, is that I havefound such a deep beauty in this
(17:46):
timeless storytelling of a Godwho gives all the power to the
people.
To bring about goodness, hope,and justice, whereas the other
gods of the time, the people hadto convince those gods to do
those things.
Hmm.
And what made Israel's story sodifferent is that Israel's God
(18:08):
said, you bring about thosethings.
Hmm.
You care for your neighbor.
You make sure the hungrier fedyou.
Make sure that the widows arecared for.
You.
Make sure justice is served.
You.
Make sure that the Poor's voiceare heard just as much as the
affluent, you overthrow empire.
(18:29):
And do not bend a knee to thepowerful.
And I'll walk with you.
And it's, to me, it's amazing.
So, All of that.
Let's circle back to the topicat hand.
Yes.
So there was a saying withinJudaism mm-hmm.
That we see much more prominentin rabbinic Judaism, which takes
(18:54):
place about a hundred years atRabbinic Judaism basically kind
of becomes a thing around 70 iswhen we start to see it.
Being formed and the reason forit.
Do you know what the reason is?
That Rabbinic Judaism started tobe formed?
The temple is destroyed.
And so up until this moment, oh,the temple was the hub of all
(19:16):
things, and that was the waythat Israel, um, sat at table.
With God.
Mm-hmm.
And therefore had communion withGod was over these sacrifices
that were given as foodofferings.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of the offerings thepeople would eat as well as food
being offered to God.
(19:36):
And so it was sharing a tablewith God, really profound
imagery.
It was, God was your neighborphysically.
You could see God's house outyour window.
Right.
Like, and you could go over andvisit.
Multiple times a day.
Uh, sometimes God asked you tobring some flour with you to, so
some cakes could be made andthen you all enjoyed them
(19:57):
together, and I'm being a littlebit, you know, nonchalant there,
but that, that really kind ofwas the essence, right?
We've talked about during, uh,Hanukkah that the lighting of
the menorah that took placeduring Hanukkah was so important
because it showed that God washome.
(20:17):
Right.
When the menorah was out, it waskind of like, uh, our front door
or our, our, our porch light.
You know, if the porch light'soff at Halloween when kids are
coming around trick or tree andthe porch light off means buzz
off kids, no one's home.
Mm-hmm.
Or no one's interested inhanding you candy.
If the porch light's on, it'slike we're home and we're
(20:39):
accepting visitors.
Right, right.
And so I thought the porch
Tana (20:43):
light being off meant, please go ahead and toilet paper
my house.
You grew up in a differentneighborhood.
Don (20:50):
So, so this, this moment when the temple was destroyed,
the, the, the menorah isextinguished.
Now we often think of a menorahas just like the little thing
that sits in our window.
Sure.
But the menorah at the templewas huge.
It was the light of the world.
Right?
Because the temple was on themount.
Mm-hmm.
And when that was lit, it was, Ithink it was like 60 feet high.
(21:11):
I forget what the measurementsare.
True.
And then it had these, thesetorches at the top, and it was
the light of the world.
You could see it from Wow.
Everywhere.
And so think about that when,you know, John refers to Jesus
as the light of the world.
Light of the world.
Yeah.
Um, God's presence here.
And so when that wasextinguished, when it was
destroyed, um, By the, um, wasit the Hasian that destroyed it
(21:36):
at that point?
But when, uh, you know, theMaccabees were rebuilding and
reclaimed the temple, right.
Yeah.
They didn't have enough oil.
Right.
But they decided that it wasmore important even if the, the
torches went out to show God'sstill here.
Tana (21:52):
Well, and that you talking about the scale of the Menorah
mm-hmm.
Makes that story.
Even that much more impressivecuz can you imagine the amount
of oil?
Oh, 100%.
It wasn't like this
Don (22:04):
little No, no.
I think we think of like, youknow, like a little lantern,
right?
There wasn't enough oil to keepthat lid.
Right.
You know, we're talking likevats of oil.
Right.
And that there was only enoughfor a day.
Right.
And they decided to light itanyhow.
And then the miracle of Hanukkahis that it stayed lit until the
oils were able to be reproduced.
(22:24):
Um, Bezo was a very specific wayto make the oils for the
menorah.
So I don't even know why it wentdown that path, but boy, it was
fun.
Can, can
Tana (22:34):
I comment on something on that?
Please, please.
Uh, the, I, I don't know why Inever realized how large that
was.
The, that menorah and for me,that is so much more, that's so
much more beautiful.
It's such vivid, vivid imagery,uh, for Jesus being the light of
(22:56):
the world like.
Every time I've ever heard thatin the past, it just felt very
like, um, Abstract.
Mm-hmm.
Like, oh, Jesus is the light ofthe world.
Oh, sure.
You know, oh, he's the light.
You know, like, I don't know.
There was like nothing physicalto attach it to.
Right.
And you talking about thatmenorah being the light of the
(23:17):
world and like how gigantic itwas and like, just how everybody
would see it.
Like, to me that makes that,that, um, statement so much more
powerful because, I have like animage to attach it to.
Yeah.
And it's also meaningful becauseit would've had a very tactile
meaning to the Jewish people.
Don (23:39):
Absolutely.
And it should to us today.
Right?
Because there was somethingpowerful that when imagine this
and, and we might have to do apart two that actually deals
with the subject that we aresupposed to do.
But, but imagine this, you are.
You are oppressed by Rome.
Rome is occupying you.
Mm-hmm.
Yet, any day that you looked up,you saw that God was still home.
(24:05):
Oh dang.
Right.
You saw that God was still thereand I don't, that doesn't answer
a lot of really heavy anddifficult philosophical
questions of why is God justsitting there doing nothing?
Sure.
Uh, but there was hope, right?
Yeah.
This, this picture of hope.
And then when, when Jesus comesaround, John says, Jesus is a
(24:29):
light of the world.
He is also the hope.
Yeah.
And we can put our hope in thatjust in the same way.
And many people believe Johnwrote the book of John was
written after the destruction ofthe temple.
So even more important Oh yeah.
To say that Jesus was the lightof the world.
Right.
And this becomes really powerfuland then, To me, this, this
hearkens back to the discussionwe had about mobile sanctuaries
(24:53):
that we love to keep bringingup.
Mm-hmm.
Is Jesus says, you are thelight.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And we've changed that.
If we, we made a nuance there ina lot of Christian circles where
it says, let light shine throughyou.
No, that's not what the Biblesays.
Mm-hmm.
The Bible says you are thelight.
Mm.
Not, not that you are some kindof light a vessel.
(25:15):
Yeah.
Not that you're a lantern thatYeah.
And Jesus' light is shiningthrough you, but that you become
the light.
And so we become the hope in adarkened world.
We become the hope in a placethat feels hopeless.
We, uh, as the faithful are allthese flickers of light, uh, in
oppression.
I just believe that this wouldbe profound if this is how we
(25:39):
viewed our job.
Hmm.
Right.
Earlier I had mentioned that theuniqueness of Yahweh, the
uniqueness of the Hebrew people,the uniqueness that becomes
Judaism is that the God thatthey worshiped, empowered the
people to bring about the hopeand justice.
(26:01):
Yeah.
And so we see that again withJesus.
And the sad part to me is thatfor many of my experiences in
the church, We handed that backto God.
Yeah.
And said, that's too difficult.
Yeah.
That's too much for me to carry.
So God, can you take care of thepoor?
(26:21):
Right.
God, can you take care of thesick God?
Would you handle justice?
Hmm.
Because this is, this is alittle much for me.
Yeah.
Tana (26:30):
Well, and to me, that really goes back to Jesus
fulfilling the law, like Jesusis the embodiment.
Of it.
Um, and I think we tend to likelook at the law or the
commandments as like rules youhave to follow.
And they may be even consideredlike oppressive, but I don't
(26:52):
think that's how a lot of it wasmeant to be.
It was meant to create abeautiful way of living.
Don (26:59):
Yes.
And in fact, the reason Jesus'life is so profound.
Is because he followed thecommands of God perfectly.
Mm-hmm.
According to tradition.
Mm-hmm.
I, I find it astounding that aperson, an individual Jesus, and
(27:22):
I'm not saying anything aboutJesus' divinity in calling,
referring to Jesus as a person.
Mm-hmm.
But Jesus had a reputation ofliving out Torah perfectly.
Mm-hmm.
And we're talking about him 2000years later.
Mm-hmm.
In fact, his reputation has onlygrown since then.
(27:44):
Right.
Um, now his reputation of hisfollowers have diminished over
time, but Jesus' reputation hasonly grown.
The irony is that if you want toemulate, if I wanted to emulate
LeBron James, I'm a huge calvesfan, born in Cleveland.
LeBron James.
(28:04):
I, I love LeBron James, but thatman's regimen every day to
perform at the level that hedoes still at in his late
thirties, almost 40 year oldbody and is still one of the
better players in the N B A.
I would look at him and not go,I could, I should probably only
(28:25):
have to do about a third of whathe does to be that good.
Tana (28:30):
Yeah.
Don (28:32):
And it's kind of what we've done.
Gosh.
It, it's kind of what we've donewith Jesus.
Yeah.
Right.
Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled the law, whichmeans that he upheld it and
everything he does bringsfullness to it.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So maybe that's the better placeto start.
And I started to allude to it.
There was a tradition thatbecame more popular after the
temple was destroyed.
That's how I got segued.
(28:54):
And uh, it was.
A rabbi might be confrontedmm-hmm.
Uh, in early rabbinic Judaism,probably through late, maybe
even still to this day.
Okay.
A rabbi might be confronted byan interpretation they have of
Torah or Talmud, or any of thewritings.
Okay.
And the response of the rabbi orthe, the critique of the rabbi
(29:19):
would be you're abolishing thelaw.
Oh, okay.
Which means that.
You're taking the Torah andyou're twisting it, you're
taking the Torah, and uh, youare saying it's not significant
or it's not important.
Basically, it is exactly how wewould think of abolishing.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
(29:39):
So I would say Christianity hasabolished the Sabbath law.
Hmm.
Right.
We have taken the concept toSabbath.
Yeah.
And said, Right.
Right.
I think we could point to a lotof laws in Torah, but Sure.
Sabbath is one I think that notmany people are gonna debate
against me on.
Right, right.
Yeah.
That the idea of not working theidea, so even if you've
(30:03):
converted the Sabbath to Sundaymm-hmm.
Uh, pun intended there, um, evenif you converted the Sabbath to
Sunday, the idea of still notworking.
Not forcing anyone else to work.
Mm-hmm.
Not, uh, participating incommerce.
Mm-hmm.
All of those things.
Modern Christendom still islike, eh, right.
(30:26):
Not necessary.
Right.
That would be abolishing thelaw.
Mm-hmm.
Fulfilling the law.
Mm-hmm.
Would be, uh, recognizing that alaw is stated in a certain way
and making it either moredifficult to follow.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but by more difficultsaying, not saying, and
(30:47):
therefore not this, we talkedabout it a few episodes ago.
I know it's been a little whilebecause of our break, but we
talked about the idea of whenJesus says you've heard it said,
uh, do not murder.
Right.
I see.
I tell you.
Yeah.
Do not even hate someone.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Because Jesus is, and Jesuswould argue that is fulfilling
the law.
Mm-hmm.
Not abolishing the law, becauseif we remove hate from our
(31:09):
heart, then we're not gonnamurder someone.
Right.
And so he would argue becausesomeone might say, well then
you're abolishing the law bysaying it's about hatred.
And he'd say, no, I'm fulfillingthe law.
Because if you don't hatesomeone, you're not gonna murder
someone.
Right.
Yeah.
So that's the significantdifference between abolishing
versus fulfilling.
And so Jesus here is answering acritique about whether or not he
(31:34):
is telling people to no longerfollow Torah.
Is he telling people to nolonger, uh, hold the commands of
God in the high esteem that theyhad been?
And Jesus' response is, I didnot come.
To abolish the law.
Mm-hmm.
I came to fulfill it.
Mm-hmm.
(31:55):
This is significant because withthat statement and what we know
it has had become to mean, andwas part of regular conversation
amongst the sages mm-hmm.
Was that Jesus was actuallysaying that he believed that we
were to continue mm-hmm.
Following Torah.
Mm-hmm.
He wasn't getting rid of it, hejust fulfilled it.
(32:17):
And so now let's take a look at.
When we hear fulfilled, what wehave chosen to hear that as is,
and therefore it's complete.
Right?
It's, we don't need to do it.
He completed the law, right?
Like it was a test and God wasjust waiting for someone to get
a hundred percent on, and thenGod was like, all right, we're
good.
Right?
Um, but we often do things.
(32:39):
We, let's see.
Can you think of an example ofsomething where you have to jump
through a bunch of hoops inorder to be.
Uh, eligible for something,
Tana (32:52):
um, grad school.
Don (32:53):
Okay.
So, so tell me some of the hoopsyou have to jump through.
Tana (32:56):
Uh, you have to, well, uh, you'd have to have a bachelor's
degree.
Okay.
To go get into grad school.
Uh, you'd have to take the gre.
Okay.
Um, if you, it was a morespecialized, like maybe if it
was like law school, you have totake the LSAT or whatever.
Um, you have to apply, you haveto write an essay.
Don (33:15):
Um, so you did grad school?
Yeah.
And then you did your PhD.
Is that still considered gradschool?
That's still grad, consideredgrad school.
Oh, to me they're, they're just,they're all, they stack.
So you did grad school?
Yeah.
Did you fulfill therequirements?
I got my degree,
Tana (33:30):
so I guess so.
Don (33:32):
So thankfully I now could just go get my graduate degree.
Because you fulfilled therequirements.
Yeah.
I'm just gonna
Tana (33:40):
start handing'em out, just tossing'em out to everybody.
Don (33:44):
So, but that's, that is, that's the significant
difference, right?
Right.
Is that we read Jesus fulfilledthe law and therefore we don't
have to be, as he handled it,you go ahead.
Whereas for you mm-hmm.
You fulfilled the requirementsto go to grad school.
(34:05):
But that doesn't have any impacton anyone else.
I mean, it does have impactbecause like to use things that
maybe are still important butnot, maybe aren't as significant
as in the past.
You are a woman.
Mm-hmm.
Who is able to fulfill thosethings.
Mm-hmm.
And get an advanced degree andeven a PhD, and that's
important.
Mm-hmm.
(34:25):
But, It doesn't alleviate, itmight add to the story, it might
add to the history that youfulfilled those things, but it
doesn't change it for the nextperson in, in major fundamental
Tana (34:37):
ways, you know?
So this is making me think aboutsomething I looked up last
night.
Um, I didn't quite see aconnection before, but now I do.
So you're, what you're basicallysaying is that, There's still,
it's still an active process.
There's still action you have totake.
Right.
So, um, you know how much I lovethe apostolic polyglot.
(35:00):
Yes.
Um, do you wanna explain tofolks what that is?
I was actually going to ask youto explain.
Sure.
Can you just explain quickly?
Don (35:08):
So the apostolic polyglot is a, is a Bible and you can
find it other ways that are not.
This particular version, we justhappen to be very fond of this
version.
So it's an interlinear biblethat has both the English and
the Greek, uh, in the same line.
So you can see how the Bible hasbeen translated.
(35:30):
Makes it a little bumpy attimes, but it allows you to see
how it's translated in thisparticular version.
It, uh, it allows you to alsoread the Septuagint, which is
the Greek translation of theHebrew Bible, so it has the
entire Septuagint and the entireNew Testament, all with English
and Greek above and below, andthen it has one of the best.
(35:55):
Uh, lexicons mm-hmm.
In the back mm-hmm.
That really help you to connectverses, passages and concepts.
This whole package is just topnotch.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I think I have probablygiven away a couple dozen of
them.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I don't know, I shouldprobably, uh, have some part
ownership in this.
Yeah.
Really printing press.
(36:16):
Uh, just kidding.
But the apostolic polyglot.
Phenomenal.
Yeah, so go ahead.
Tana (36:22):
Yeah, so I, I love this thing, uh, because, so what you
can do with all of thosewonderful tools wrapped into one
is you can go into the Bibleverse you're reading, and if
there's a word that has beentransla, you know, the English
translation, the word you'regoing, I wonder what that word
actually means, becausetranslation is an active
(36:42):
interpretation and so, You know,it's important to kind of get at
the root of these things.
So I decided to look up what theword"fulfilled" meant.
Right?
Yeah.
So in this, in the Glide, it haslike a little number assigned,
and then in the back you canlook up the number and it has
kind of like, oh, this word is,it can mean like kind of these
(37:03):
couple of things.
And then it gives you everyinstance in which it appears,
Don (37:07):
including the Septuagint.
Tana (37:08):
Yeah And, um, and you've said something before Don, about
the significance of the firsttime.
Right.
Don (37:15):
So there's a tradition in, at least within Rabbinic
Judaism, I don't know if there'sa different rabbinic, but within
Rabbinic Judaism, uh, there's atradition that if you want to
understand how to read a word,you go to the first time it was
used.
And that sets the definition forthe entire Bible.
(37:36):
I, I have a feeling that's notactually literally true.
Mm-hmm.
But it, it has led to profounduh, understanding.
Yeah.
Tana (37:45):
So I went back, I, I looked, I looked up fulfilled,
and uh, the first instance is,it appears in, is Genesis 1 22
when God tells the creatures tofill the water in the sea.
Yes.
And I was totally
Don (38:02):
gonna guess that first I, I was sitting here, so hoping you
were gonna ask me because itcame up in our Luke study that
we were a per, a group of uswere doing.
Oh.
And it came up in the Lukestudy, that same,
Tana (38:14):
so Right, because there's, uh, the birth story, there's
also about Jesus fulfilling andall that stuff.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, so the, I love,and, and at first when I looked
that up last night, I was like,Um hmm.
How does this relate?
But God tells the creatures tofill the water in the sea and
(38:39):
so, and not then stop.
Well, not only that, but itdoesn't say like God filled the
sea with the creatures.
Right.
He told the creatures to fillthe sea.
Yes.
And so that's kind of how I'mthen envisioning this connection
to fulfilling the law.
It's an active process.
It's not something God did.
(38:59):
Or you know, Jesus did, and thenyou just enjoy the fruits of it.
It's like it's, it's active.
You do it right.
Don (39:08):
Yeah.
And it's not ending.
Right.
It continues on, the sea isstill being filled.
Yes.
Probably at a slower pace thanwhat it had been, but it's being
filled.
Right.
So, yeah.
So it's absolutely a wonderfulconnection, Tana.
Thank you.
So I think then what we're leftwith here, Is what then is, does
(39:30):
this mean for us?
And would you mind reading thoseverses again?
Tana (39:38):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the
prophets.
I have come not to abolish, butto fulfill.
I.
For truly, I tell you, untilheaven and earth pass away, not
one letter, not one stroke of aletter will pass from the law
until all is accomplished." Doyou want
Don (39:53):
stop there?
No.
I feel like you read more thanthat earlier.
I
Tana (39:55):
did.
Okay.
"Therefore, whoever breaks oneof the least of these
commandments and teaches othersto do the same will be called
least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But whoever does them andteaches them will be called
great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless yourrighteousness exceeds that of
the scribes and Pharisees, youwill never enter the kingdom of
(40:15):
heaven."
Don (40:16):
That is a terrifying passage.
Yeah,
Tana (40:19):
that is.
Don (40:21):
And but I think it's, it's also really important.
First of all, who does Jesusrefer to as righteous?
Fair season scribes.
Yeah.
The people that I have mostoften heard ridiculed from
pulpits, Jesus says, arerighteous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is important.
(40:42):
This isn't Jesus.
This is one, again, one of thosemoments where, oh, he was being
metaphorical here.
They weren't really righteous,he was being sarcastic.
No, no.
I don't believe so.
I I think you'd be hard pressedto look at those words.
And pull sarcasm from'em,because then you would have to
say that the other pieces weresarcastic as well.
(41:03):
Yeah.
Or at least leading into it.
Yeah.
Instead, this passage is sayingthat if we continue to teach
people to ignore the laws ofTorah mm-hmm.
That, that's, that's going todiminish the kingdom of heaven.
Yeah.
(41:24):
Uh, and I'm not talking aboutlike this concept of heading off
to the pearly gates.
I'm talking about the kingdom ofheaven.
Jesus said the kingdom of heavenis at hand.
Mm-hmm.
Meaning that we have access toit if we live in such a way that
discourages people from hearingthese laws of justice, these
(41:46):
laws of compassion, these lawsof equity throughout Torah.
Mm-hmm.
And we discourage people fromeven, uh, participating in them.
Mm-hmm.
We're not going to experiencethe kingdom of heaven.
Right.
Yeah.
And again, I want to be clear,I'm talking about now.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not talking about angelwings.
(42:07):
Mm-hmm.
I'm talking about the kingdom ofheaven is breaking out, is what
the Bible says.
The kingdom of heaven isbursting forth and we are called
to light the edge of that growthof the kingdom with the light of
the world.
Mm-hmm.
And the hope that it brings, andwe are supposed to be taking it
out into the world.
Tana (42:28):
So, you know, I told you about how I looked up the word
fulfill.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, well, I shouldprobably also look up abolish.
Yeah.
And what you're talking aboutlike, Being active, all this
stuff.
So, um, you know how I said, uh,there's, when you look up the
definition or you look up theword in the back, there's like a
couple different definitions,right?
Right.
So for abolish it's likedeposed, destroy, but there's,
(42:52):
it's also means rest.
Yes.
And just stop.
Yeah.
And I just, I thought that wasreally interesting because that
also implies that you shouldn't,you NEED to be active.
(43:12):
You shouldn't just rest like,oh, I'm upholding like the law
for me.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Like I am, I am being righteousin a way, but I'm not actively.
Right.
Going out and, and, andfulfilling the law for other
people.
Don (43:29):
It reminds me, I had a conversation with someone, uh, a
couple months ago, and I wastalking about something that was
happening in the news, and theirresponse was, I just, I don't
watch the news.
I just can't take it.
It just stresses me out, and soI am not watching the news
anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(43:50):
And my response to that was,that's why I watch the news.
Yeah.
So I don't rest.
Right.
I don't stop because as amiddle-aged white man, I got a
lot of pre, I got a lot ofbenefits.
Mm-hmm.
(44:10):
I have a lot of privilege.
Mm-hmm.
And it would be easy if I cutout the noise.
And what's it called in musicwhen there's no noise?
Arrest?
Arrest.
Look at me that when I cut outthe noise, it allows me to rest.
Yeah.
And resting with a purpose isdifferent than Sure.
(44:35):
Yeah.
Than just stopping.
Yeah.
And I think what we've allowedthis verse and this passage to
do, mm-hmm.
Is allow us to just stop.
Mm-hmm.
Tana (44:47):
Jesus fulfilled it.
So we're done.
Don (44:49):
And therefore we have been in many ways when it comes to
equity, justice, mercy,compassion, uh, care for the
other, acceptance, all thosethings we have rested and asked
God to handle it.
Yeah.
Not realizing that what we'vecontributed to is the abolishing
(45:15):
of God's love letter.
Hmm.
To humanity.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't blame people forrejecting what this faith has
become because yeah, this faithhas become about being, having
the right knowledge instead ofabout having the right way of
(45:39):
viewing the world and others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tana (45:47):
Well, that feels like a good place to stop for today.
I feel like there's actually somuch more we could say, but then
we would just get on more rabbittrails and then we'd have like a
three hour podcast, uh, episode,so Sounds awesome.
Any final thoughts to share?
Don?
Don (46:08):
I just want to make sure that we're very clear about,
about something particular tome.
I think that we can often feel,you mentioned 613 commands as
counted by Maimonides right?
In Acts 15, it's the story thatwe hear as the Jerusalem
(46:29):
Council.
In Acts 15, they're trying todetermine, the Jewish apostles
are trying to determine, ohshit, we have all of these
Gentiles coming in.
Uh, what are we supposed toteach them?
What are we supposed to tellthem?
What do they have to do andagree to before they can become
(46:50):
a part of us?
Right.
Right.
And I get it.
That's really complicatedbecause up until this moment in
history, Judaism was never anevangelistic, and I don't even
think to this day, is consideredan evangelistic uh, faith.
Mm-hmm.
And so now I think you have thishuge influx of gentiles.
Because of Paul.
Mm-hmm.
(47:10):
Particularly believes that nowthat Jesus has come this and
believes that Jesus is thesavior, that the, that God's
kingdom being physically set upon the earth, God's throne,
literally in Jerusalem, that theworld is about to change
drastically with God's physicalpresence, not just, uh, menorah.
(47:31):
Mm-hmm.
And because of that, all thesegentiles are being brought into
the fold.
The apostles are worried aboutthis, but what are they gonna do
about Torah?
What are they gonna do aboutSabbath?
How are they going to know whatthey're supposed to, they can
eat what they can't eat.
They're worried about all thesethings.
And after a debate at theJerusalem Council comes back,
(47:52):
let them just follow these, andthey, they give, I think, four
or five, which we call the NoahHyde Laws.
Mm.
Of these four or five things.
Mm.
If they follow those, that'll beenough.
But that's not a period there.
It might be, but it's not theend of the conversation.
Mm-hmm.
What we often stop, and by theway, we don't even do those
(48:14):
first, those four or five.
Um, I encourage people to golook at Acts 15 and see what
those are, and then really parsethrough and see if, if you're
doing at least those minimums,but then it says kind of almost
as an afterthought, Becauseevery Sabbath, they will sit in
(48:35):
the synagogue and hear Mosestaught.
Mm.
Which implies they don't need tohave it all figured out today.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
They don't have to know all 613laws, although they wouldn't
have caught numbered it thatway, then they don't need to
know all of the commands mm-hmm.
In order to be a part of this.
Mm-hmm.
(48:56):
Instead, They just need to dothese few things, and most of
those, I would argue, are veryjustice minded and mm-hmm uh,
really eliminated them fromattending a certain feast, uh,
that the gentiles had that were,was horrific.
Um, and so Guild Feast is whatthey were, and this eliminates
(49:17):
them from attending Guild feastsand, and then just says, because
they're going to hear Mosestaught, they'll learn it over
time.
It's not that they have to beperfect.
Mm.
And this is where I thinksometimes we can feel daunted,
um, by these, this idea of like,so what are you guys saying that
(49:39):
we need to follow all the lawsof Torah?
And my argument for that is webelieve that Jesus did.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And we believed he lived themost perfect life.
Yeah.
So shouldn't we try his regimen?
Right.
Shouldn't we at least considerthose things?
And it might take us the rest ofour life to add a handful, but
(50:03):
would we not be better off forit?
Would our neighbors not bebetter off for it?
Would the world not be betteroff for it?
And what does it hurt to try?
Right?
That's it.
Yeah.
1, 1, 1 step at a time.
Uh, no one needs to take thisall on at once.
In Acts 15, they said, no, weshould not make them take
everything on all at one time.
(50:25):
Yeah.
And neither should we.
So yeah.
Do
Tana (50:28):
you not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief?
Don (50:32):
Yes.
There you go.
Tana (50:33):
What is it?
Walk humbly now.
Show mercy.
Now do justice now.
Yes.
I'm sure.
I didn't say the exact exactlyproperly, but I love the
sentiment.
Yes, I agree.
So, well, thank you all forjoining us.
Um, I just want to, uh, inviteyou if you are interested in
continuing the conversation, ifyou wanna leave us any comments,
(50:56):
if you have any questions aboutwhat we talked about, we are on
pretty much all the socials.
Um, you can, you know, eithersend us messages if you wanna
private conversation or you cancomment and we can continue the
convo there.
Uh, we are on YouTube,youtube.com/@ajff uh, our
website is ajffpodcast.com andif you'd like to support the
(51:19):
work we're doing, you can go tobuymeacoffee.com/ajff and either
become a member or just, uh,leave a little token of support.
So thank you all for supportingus and for listening, and we'll
see you next time.
Don (51:35):
Bye.
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