June 27, 2023 • 54 mins
Is the Great Commission about evangelism or discipleship? What does it truly mean to be a disciple? Don and Tana discuss the meaning of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and explore the difference between evangelism and discipleship.
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Book recommendation: Paul Was Not a Christian by Pamela Eisenbaum
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don (00:00):
We imagine that when Jesus is talking to a crowd, he's
(00:02):
evangelizing them.
90% of the time in the text,they're Jews.
He's not evangelizing them.
It's not evangelism that'shappening there, it's teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And yet Jesus differentiatedfrom the people who were already
a part of the faith that when hewas teaching them, he did not
confuse them with beingdisciples.
(00:23):
And I think this is key becauseI think most pastors believe
that they disciple from thepulpit every Sunday.
Tana (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
Sarah's on break today.
So it is Don Schiewer.
Hello and me, Tana Schiewer.
Hello.
I, I don't know how to, I feelstrange introducing myself.
I don't know what it is.
It is, I, Tana Schiewer.
(00:58):
Anyway, uh, so today we're gonnabe talking about the Great
Commission, and I'm going tostart off by reading, uh, verses
16 through 19, which say, uh, Ibelieve this is the NIV that I'm
reading from.
Then the 11 disciples went toGalilee, to the mountain where
(01:19):
Jesus had told them to go.
When they saw him, theyworshiped him, but some doubted.
Then Jesus came to them andsaid, all authority in Heaven
and on earth has been given tome.
Therefore, go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and of the Holy Spirit.
(01:42):
So, Yes.
Uh, what were you taught aboutthe Great Commission growing up?
Don (01:51):
You know, it was, it was heavy, right?
Yeah.
Like, it was like I wasresponsible for the salvation of
people.
Mm.
That.
What happened if I did not takemy one opportunity to witness to
someone and that person died ina car accident, geez, and I
(02:12):
could have prevented theireternal damnation right now.
I don't know if it was everstated that succinctly to me,
but that is definitely theimpression I carried with me
through a large portion of mylife, probably through my early
twenties.
I had a sense of regret andsadness about friendships I had
(02:36):
in high school that I wasashamed of the gospel, quote
unquote.
So I wouldn't share my faithwith them, with people, and that
in some way if something were tohave happened to them.
That I'd be responsible fortheir torture for eternity.
Tana (02:55):
That's a lot of pressure to put on young people, any
person.
But I mean, especially growingup.
Yeah, I, the interesting thingis growing up in the Catholic
church, I don't remember thatbeing as much of an emphasis.
Don (03:11):
Yeah.
And you also just don't careabout eternal torture of other
people.
Because
Tana (03:15):
only Catholics are getting into heaven.
Don (03:18):
See, the laughter, the laughter proves my point.
Tana (03:21):
Uh, yes, I don't care.
Uh, but I remember when Iswitched from Catholicism and
started going to, uh, Protestantchurch.
I remember the great commissionbeing emphasized a lot like
growing up in.
(03:42):
The nineties evangelical sort ofworld.
I felt like it was very, verymuch about getting souls, you
know?
Yep.
Like it was very, um, you haveto be an evangelist and you, it
is incumbent upon you tobasically like preach at every
single
Don (04:02):
person that made, and, and that didn't lead you to feel
what I was feeling.
Tana (04:06):
Um, so I.
I don't remember feeling.
Don (04:15):
And by the way, I wanna say I hope it didn't because it was
a horrible thing to feel andit's a lie.
Tana (04:21):
Yeah.
I would have to really go backand try to remember the thing
that sticks out to me the mostwas, uh, I was struggling with
the idea that every singleperson had to be an evangelist
and what that was supposed tolook like.
Don (04:35):
Yeah.
That's a different kind ofpressure, but still it's just a
ton
Tana (04:38):
of pressure.
Yeah.
And.
It was so antithetical to who Iwas like, I was not gonna be
That person who gets on theplane sits down and looks at the
person in the seat next to meand goes, do you believe in
Jesus Christ as your Lord andSavior?
You know, uh, well if you
Don (04:56):
use that voice,
Tana (04:59):
yeah, I'd probably get a lot of no go away, but I.
That, and that was very muchwhat was presented to me as the
like, that's what you should bedoing.
And to me, although I didn'thave really like the language
for it at the time, that feltvery um, Like the wrong
(05:22):
emphasis.
It, it, it felt very like, itactually to me, I was like,
well, I feel like that woulddrive people away, especially
the way I would see some peopledoing evangelism.
Right?
Sure.
Um, especially when it would besort of like the turn or burn
kind of kind of message, right.
Of, you know, well, do you, doyou feel like you have your
(05:42):
salvation?
Do you wanna go to hell?
Like, what kind of message isthat?
To, to get somebody to believe.
Right.
So I just,
Don (05:52):
I mean, fear is a very powerful motivator.
Just look at our current GOP Ohyeah,
Tana (05:57):
yeah.
Everything's fear based.
Um, but the.
For me, it was trying tountangle that pressure of, oh,
I'm supposed to be doing thisthing, and then the guilt of I'm
not doing this thing because itmakes me very uncomfortable and
(06:18):
it is not my personality, and Idon't even, I wouldn't even know
what to say to somebody.
I wouldn't know how to arguewith them if I needed to argue
with them.
You know what I'm saying?
So, Yeah.
But I, I do remember that beinglike, the goal, you have to get,
save all these souls.
And it was always about that andnot about really helping anyone
(06:40):
in any way.
It was more just like, well, istheir soul saved?
Okay.
Nothing else matters.
Oh, right.
Don (06:47):
Because people, if you, if you're helping people in a
different way, the the phrasethat often got tossed around,
Towards me or that I would hearwould be, well man cannot
survive on bread alone.
That one Yes, yes.
Implying that, um, but by thevery word of God, and therefore
that means evangelism and thatto take care of a person's needs
(07:10):
was not enough that we alsoneeded to evangelize them.
And that even to do the firstwithout the second was in some
way a, a negative.
And that's, that was reallysomething that, that I was hit
with a lot.
(07:31):
That this isn't about, you know,if it was a soup kitchen, it
wasn't about whether or not theperson's stomach was full.
It was whether or not they alsoheard the gospel message while
they were eating
Tana (07:44):
right.
And that makes me think of a lotof the stuff that came out of
this period of time, which was,uh, tracts the, the evangelism
tracts tracts and the, the, um,folded money that would look
like you're leaving a big tip onthe table.
But it was actually like alittle evangelism
Don (08:06):
tool.
Yeah.
Quick, quick side story, and Imay have told this on this
podcast, or if not, maybe on theEvangebros podcast that I used
to do.
But, uh, I was, I had taken someseminary classes and one of the
seminary courses I took wasEvangelism and Discipleship.
So it might come up again inthis discussion today.
Oh, interesting.
But it, uh, one of theindividuals there said, I always
(08:31):
like to leave as a tip.
Oh, no.
One of these, one of thesethings.
Uh, and they were referring toone of these bills that looks
like a$50 bill or$20 bill, butwhen you open it, it's actually
a Salvation mm-hmm.
Tract right?
Mm-hmm.
And when she said that, sh I, Idon't remember the exact
(08:53):
conversation.
This has been, man, probably 15years ago or longer.
And they, she had said somethingto the effect of basically let
the, let space for people toapplaud her.
Mm.
Or mm-hmm.
Left room for people to be like,wow, that's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Because we were talking aboutevangelism in this evangelism
(09:13):
and discipleship class.
Mm-hmm.
And I said, that just makes youan asshole.
And the class stops.
Like it just stops.
You hear a record scratch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Basically.
And, and when the class stopped,the woman who was sharing this
about that she likes to do this,raises her hand and the
(09:36):
professor's like, yes.
And she's like, can he swear inhere?
And I said, I'm a fucking adult.
And the professor's like, We, weprefer if maybe we didn't have
profanity in class, but there isnothing against him swearing and
(09:57):
they were more upset that Iswore.
It reminds me of like the, oh,Tony Campolo yeah, the Tony
Campolo where he says, uh, youknow, today a hundred thousand
or a thousand children die andno one gives a shit.
In fact, you're more upset thatI said shit than all these
children are dying.
Mm-hmm.
Anyhow, more upset about that,but.
Yes.
So that is my, my side sidestory on those tracks that look
(10:23):
like money.
And I just said, look, I'vewaited tables and it's a
grueling job.
Mm-hmm.
And when you finally get someonethat it looks like they not only
tipped appropriately, but theyactually tipped extravagantly
and you're remembering all thepeople that left change.
Yeah.
On the table or nothing.
(10:44):
No.
Or nothing, and you finally seethat$20 bill or you see
something and, and then you,when you grab it, you find out
that it's a message about Jesus.
It's, it's not hope.
No, it's not helpful.
Mm-hmm.
In fact, it's aggravating andupsetting.
(11:05):
I think that those.
I'm sure someone somewhere isstill handing those out.
I have a feeling that those havekind of gone the way of the
buffalo.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that we're not seeing thoseany longer, but yeah.
Yeah.
That's my, that's my story withthat.
I called someone an asshole, uh,in my seminary class.
Tana (11:29):
I mean, that's not shocking to me.
Uh, but, but I mean, I rem and Iremember thinking at the time,
These are ways to actually drivepeople away.
Yeah.
You know, I feel like some ofthe tools that people used were
more detrimental than helpful
Don (11:48):
and it's, it's also a, so when you read that, I, I asked
you to stop at 19.
Yes.
And the reason I asked you tostop at 19 is because I think
that's where most people hearthis talk.
Can you just read the actualgreat commission up through the
end of 19?
To start, don't you said
Tana (12:08):
a little bit earlier when I said Jesus came to them.
Okay.
All authority in heaven on Earthhas been given to me.
Therefore, go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Now
Don (12:22):
my experience growing up, and maybe others have had a
different one that's we treatedthe end of 19 as if there was a
period there.
What is the actual punctuationat the end of 19?
Uh, comma, which implies what?
There's more and what is thatmore?
Tana (12:39):
And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don (12:43):
This is really significant, right.
That the, and teaching themeverything that I have commanded
you.
A tract is not doing that.
Mm-hmm.
You are not teaching peopleeverything that Jesus commanded.
You're not doing anything, youare behaving as a surrogate, not
(13:07):
even Right.
And, and in this instance, it'sjust, it is probably one of the
great, I always use, I'm sobombastic.
One of the greatest atrocitiesthat we do in Christendom is
that we've reduced the greatcommission to evangelism.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
(13:27):
And I would argue, Jesus did nothave evangelism in mind.
Mm.
When he gave the GreatCommission.
So I don't think that in thispassage, the word commission is
used.
Right.
That's our heading.
Uh, I think you could argue, andtherefore Jesus commissioned
(13:50):
them could be implied.
But when you hear the wordcommission, Tana.
What does that mean to you?
If something is commissioned,uh, or someone commissions
someone, what is the, what isthe the meaning of that?
Tana (14:06):
I always think of like paintings or compositions of
like a wealthy patroncommissioned someone to do a
specific thing,
Don (14:16):
and so what would then, how would that apply to the
disciples here when you'rethinking about now Jesus is
commissioning them.
Tana (14:25):
He's telling them to do it.
Don (14:29):
So in this idea of like when we do, uh, commencement
speeches, which I'd be curiousif those have a similar Uh huh.
Background or graduationspeeches, we will commission
the, the students to now go andtake what they've learned.
(14:52):
Yeah.
And extend it.
You now are no longer thestudent.
Right?
Not to say that you can't keeplearning, but you now have
graduating, you are now being,uh, commissioned to go use your
skills that you have learnedmm-hmm.
(15:12):
In the ways that benefit,however, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if, if that is indeed the waythat we should read this, Then,
then what kind of, does anythingshift in this reading for you if
you read it more from that, uh,perspective?
Tana (15:30):
Yeah, because then I, I, I couldn't make the connection at
first with like the money partof like, oh, a rich patron pays
money.
But basically what that patronis doing by paying money to a
painter, for example, is givingthem the, the kind of giving
them the tools they need to makethe painting, right?
Because, They can take thatmoney and go get the supplies
(15:50):
they need and it compensatesthem for their time with a
graduation.
Uh, the students have learned,you know, they have, they have
been taught these things allthroughout the.
The, the college experience,they are granted a degree and so
therefore they are equipped togo do the thing.
So then that makes me think likeJesus is like, well, I have
(16:12):
equipped you now.
I have taught you, you have beenwith me, and so you now have the
tools you need to go do thisthing.
Don (16:20):
Right.
It's graduation day.
Yeah.
No, I'm being, I'm being veryserious.
Yeah.
This is the Apostle's graduationday.
Hmm.
And Jesus is saying, yourdiscipleship with me is over.
Mm.
We finished.
We have completed your teaching.
We have completed youreducation.
(16:41):
And now your job graduatingdiscipleship school is that you
are now the discipler.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And what does a discipler do?
Disciples.
And what does a discipler who isdiscipling do.
Tana (17:00):
Um, so teaches, but also as an example, like it's not
just like a classroom you wouldthink of, you know, you go and
you listen to a lecture orwhatever.
The discipler takes them alongwith them lives, life with them,
(17:23):
and acts as the example for howthey should be, and also teaches
them everything they need toknow.
Don (17:36):
Good job.
So you seem so confident.
So there's another passage that,and we'll circle back then to
this because I think it'simportant to lay a little bit of
groundwork.
So there's a passage that mightsound familiar to you and the
listener that is.
It says, uh, something to theeffect of who gives you
(17:59):
authority.
Right?
And this is a really interestingmoment.
Jesus is doing something.
Jesus' is teaching, andsomeone's response to Jesus's
teaching is, where does this manget his authority?
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And that's an importantquestion.
(18:20):
And it's probably meanssomething differently than what
many of us heard growing up inthe church.
So when you hear that, uh, andyou think about, you may have
never been taught on thisspecific passage, growing that
specific verse growing up, butcompiling all the things you
learned growing up in thechurch, whether it's the
(18:42):
Catholic church, protestantchurch, whatever, how would you
imagine understanding that?
Tana (18:50):
Yeah.
Understanding the question ofwho gives you you, yeah.
What are
Don (18:53):
they asking Jesus, or what are they asking about Jesus?
Tana (18:57):
Who taught you, who was your rabbi?
Don (19:01):
So I think that that is probably what most people would
think.
Mm-hmm.
But the language used thereactually implies something else.
Because what it implies is thatJesus had a unique authority.
Mm-hmm.
Quote unquote.
Mm-hmm.
To interpret the Bible.
(19:22):
Okay.
That Jesus had an uniqueauthority where Jesus imagined
he could say something such as,you have heard it said, but I
tell you.
Oh, right.
Sound familiar?
Yes.
Yes.
Because that was basically ano-no.
Unless you had this uniqueauthority.
(19:43):
Oh, right, because you were onlysupposed to teach what,
Tana (19:51):
I guess like Torah standard, what
Don (19:54):
someone with authority taught you.
Right?
Right.
So only in only a handful ofpeople throughout Jewish history
had, what was this uniqueauthority?
Where they were able to give abrand new interpretation.
They were able to take us a textand they were able to say, you
(20:16):
have heard.
But I tell you.
Tell
Tana (20:18):
you.
So is that certain rabbis, likeHillel
Don (20:22):
Hillel would've been someone with authority?
Yep.
Rashi.
Is that one of them?
Rashi, I'm guessing, would'vehad authority.
Um, Uh, Gamliel probably wouldnot gile.
That was one.
Okay.
Probably would not have.
And that's Hillel's grandson.
Oh, okay.
So he probably only taughtHillel's teachings.
Okay.
Right.
(20:43):
Jesus agrees with Hillel onalmost everything except for
divorce.
Divorce.
And I would argue.
That would've been confusing topeople because you taught what
your teacher said, and I thinkyou could make a case that Jesus
was probably taught by Hillel orGalio or someone within that,
(21:03):
within that system.
Tana (21:04):
So who gave those people?
Like how did you know that thosewere the people who had that
authority?
So you had
Don (21:09):
to have two people, Uhhuh, who had authority.
Okay.
Give authority to you.
Tana (21:16):
Oh.
Interesting.
Okay.
So when they were asking Jesus,who gives you this authority,
they expected him to name tworabbis.
Don (21:27):
Yes.
And do you remember what it isthat Jesus, uh, what goes on in
this scene?
I think he
Tana (21:34):
says, like my father,
Don (21:36):
so John the Baptist, who people believed had authority.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
So John the Baptist, uh, andGod, Or Jesus's witnesses right
now, it could be debated, like,okay, way to pull the God card.
Jesus.
Right?
Sure.
Yeah.
(21:56):
Yeah.
What a dick move.
Yeah.
Um, but, but this is where Jesusis like, they're not gonna
listen.
They're not gonna hear it.
They're gonna be like, whatever.
Right.
So, but this is an importantthing is that as Jesus is coming
up, Through the ranks, so tospeak, or as he's preaching
around, there became this thingwhere he speaks and you'll hear
(22:17):
it.
He speaks with authority.
Right, right.
When you hear that, when youread that in the text and it
talks about Jesus's teachingwith authority Uhhuh, it doesn't
mean that he was confident andhe had chutzpah it.
It means instead that he wasreinterpreting long held views
of the text in unique and newways.
(22:40):
I.
Right.
And if you heard someone doingthat, you should be suspicious
unless you knew who it was thatsaid, anointed him basically to
say, you may makeinterpretations, you know the
text, you are close enough toGod, you have done all the
things.
Correct, that you have thisauthority.
(23:02):
Mm-hmm.
To now be able to interpret thetext.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
People when they heard Jesusteach.
Were blown away.
Mm-hmm.
They were, they were astoundedat his teachings.
Mm-hmm.
And then they would ask, who isit that gave this man such
authority?
Mm.
Who is it that allowed this manto teach in these ways that are
blowing our minds, who arechanging the ways that we're
(23:23):
thinking about the world?
Who has given him mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Authority.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So why does that matter for theGreat Commission?
Tana (23:36):
Uh, well, Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth
has been given to me.
Yes.
He uses the word
Don (23:43):
authority there.
Yes.
The ability to interpret, notI'm in charge.
Right.
Right.
Like you have to understand notI'm in charge and I'm king, but
that I have an ability or I havehas been bestowed upon me.
A uniqueness to see andunderstand the world and
(24:05):
faithfulness and God.
Yeah.
Salvation, uh, which meanssafety and empire.
And I have been given thisunique authority and now do what
with it, uh,
Tana (24:20):
commission you.
Don (24:22):
What does verse 20 say?
Tana (24:25):
Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don (24:29):
Yes.
Go and teach my teachings.
Yeah,
Tana (24:32):
yeah, yeah.
So this is Jesus being the rabbisaying, I have given
Don (24:36):
you.
Not authority.
No.
He is not giving them authority.
Oh, he's saying I haveauthority.
I have authority.
Teach what?
I not teach my teachings.
He has not given them authority.
Tana (24:46):
Okay, so I have a question.
Yes.
Uh, I know Paul wasn't adisciple, but it feels like Paul
kind of expanded on some thingsthat Jesus said.
Don (25:03):
So I think, I think you're correct and incorrect
simultaneously.
Woo.
Sweet spot.
I think the way that we have,uh, because of the lens that has
been handed us mm-hmm.
We read Paul that way.
Mm-hmm.
I think that if you read Paulthrough a, uh, Jewish lens
(25:25):
mm-hmm.
Uh, that it's, doesn't feel thesame way, it doesn't feel like
he is.
Like stepping outside ofboundaries.
Uh, great book.
Pamela Eisenberg.
Paul was not a Christian.
Uh, wonderful, wonderful book.
I always say when I recommendthat book that, um, that the
(25:47):
title, I feel like the title wasgiven by, uh, the publisher
because Pamela Eisen Baum's uh,handling of Paul is so kind.
And generous towards Christians.
She's a Jewish scholar whoteaches New Testament and early
Christian, uh, uh, history.
(26:09):
Mm-hmm.
And she's so kind in that bookand she is not like, it's not at
all like confrontational, butthe title feels very
confrontational.
Paul was not a Christian.
Mm.
Uh, so it's, anyhow, highlyrecommend it.
Wonderful book.
If you want to kind of read, ifyou want the op opportunity in
a.
(26:30):
Easily digestible book or fairlyeasily digestible book to, uh,
kind of hear paw through a lensthat doesn't feel like he is,
uh, going against or taking somecreative license, uh, as, as you
were referring.
So, yeah.
Tana (26:48):
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Uh, I actually interrupted youwith that question.
So you were talking about what,um, that Jesus had commissioned
the, uh, disciples to teach whathe had taught them.
Correct.
Don (27:00):
So this is one of the things that I think is, is
always fascinating is that wewant Jesus to always be unique,
like a hundred percent unique.
In fact, earlier I mentionedthat Jesus was probably brought
up in the School of Hillel.
And for some people that's like,you know, mind, mind blowing.
Tana (27:20):
Oh, right, right.
Like that he could have had ateacher
Don (27:22):
and was Yeah.
Like, what?
Yeah.
But yet we see in the passagethat talks about him, uh,
hanging out at the temple.
And his parents are looking forhim around the age of a Bar
Mitzvah.
Mm-hmm.
That, uh, you know, he, he'slike, where else would I have
been?
I'm about my father's work, soI'm at my father's house and it
(27:43):
says, and he was sitting on thesteps.
Basically interacting with therabbis or the teachers.
Mm-hmm.
Which means he was learning.
Mm-hmm.
I think sometimes in our, in ourAmerican bald eagle, Jesus, we,
like at his baptism, it was nota dove.
A bald eagle draped in anAmerican flag comes out of the
(28:03):
sky and, and God says thispatriot of whom I'm, well
please.
Right.
That we imagine Jesus washolding court.
Right?
We do.
Yes.
Yes.
That, that Jesus was there andJesus was like, he was telling,
and he was blowing their minds,right?
And they were like, oh my gosh,who was this kid?
(28:23):
Yeah.
Um, and, but, but that's notwhat most likely happened.
I, I mean, obviously I wasn'tthere, so I, I can't for certain
say, but it seems more likelythat Jesus was there listening
and he was proudly asking.
(28:43):
Phenomenal questions.
Mm.
And he was engaging the teachersin a way that they probably
viewed him and were like, thisis a great potential student.
Mm.
Now we don't really hearanything about Jesus again until
he's 30.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think this is importantbecause I would argue the reason
(29:06):
you wouldn't hear anything aboutJesus until he's 30 is because
that's, 30 is the age at whichyou were able to start teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And you weren't, you weren'tsupposed to teach until the age
of 30.
Mm.
Right.
And boy, wouldn't we be betteroff if, uh, oh my gosh.
Particularly, uh, yeah.
Anything
Tana (29:26):
25 year old Evange- bros.
Don (29:27):
Yes.
So, and I would argue that fromthe age of 12 to 30 mm-hmm.
That is about the amount of timethat you would've been being
discipled.
Mm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And because of that, I wouldargue, Jesus, we don't hear
anything about Jesus from 12 to30 because he was, uh, in a
(29:50):
yeshiva.
Um, and he was being, I probablymispronounce that, but he was,
he was being trained to be ateacher.
And at some point in the midstof that, It becomes clear that
he has authority.
Mm.
And it, he begins teaching.
And from the first day we seehim out on the, you know,
(30:14):
countryside teaching peopleperceive he as authority.
So now Jesus at Jesus would havebeen at around the age of 30
commissioned his teacher.
If.
Plausible.
I, I'd say it's plausible.
I don't, I can't say for certainJesus was discipled, but if
(30:35):
Jesus was discipled, Jesuswould've had a commencement day
in which his teacher would'vegot up and said, now it is your
job to go and make disciples.
Hmm.
And, and then Jesus and hisfellow graduates would've left
(30:56):
at that moment, and theywould've begun.
Finding people to disciple, theywould've started calling
disciples.
Disciples would've started, uh,being attracted to them and
coming to them and asking to bediscipled by them.
And as their name grew, and byname I mean character and
reputation, not, uh, likesometimes we can make that icky,
(31:20):
and I, I really just mean as, asJesus's reputation or anybody's
reputation grew.
Mm-hmm.
People would start coming tothem.
Mm-hmm.
And they would no longer have tocall someone to discipleship,
but people would be attracted tothem and want to be discipled by
them.
And we see that immediately asJesus, you know, in the first
couple chapters of every gospelis basically Jesus calling
(31:42):
disciples.
Yeah.
Right After we get over thebirth narrative and Yeah.
Everything we, we see thesemoments where Jesus is calling
people because he has begun at30.
To disciple, right?
He's gone through a greatcommissioning, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and, and so Jesus did thesethings.
Now Jesus is saying to hisdisciples, I who have authority,
(32:05):
am now calling you to go andmake disciples.
And because of that, they'resent out.
Mm.
Now, What do you imagine isunique?
Because this is not unique, thisprocess, but what is relatively
unique is something in thatverse.
(32:27):
What, what do you imagine is theunique thing in that verse?
Tana (32:34):
Um, so wait, which verse are you talking about?
Are you talking about the entiregreat commission or are you
talking about specific.
Don (32:44):
Probably 19 would be my guess.
Tana (32:46):
Therefore, go and make disciples, baptize all that.
Don (32:50):
Yes.
But you skipped the
Tana (32:51):
unique part.
Sorry.
Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations.
Baptizing them.
Na, all nations.
Yes.
Okay.
Don (32:59):
Because discipleship would've been Jewish children.
Right, right.
And one of the things that Jesusdoes that I think is
interesting.
And unique, and whether this issomething added by an author
because the disciples or theapostles started doing this, I
don't know, but this idea ofgoing and making disciples of
(33:22):
all nations mm-hmm.
Is fascinating.
Mm-hmm.
Because that wouldn't havenecessarily been something that
one thought about.
And I think it's important forus to recognize that Jesus had
this perspective that in thesame way that Paul did, that now
(33:43):
that the Messiah had come, thatthe four corners of the earth.
Mm-hmm.
This is not Paul pitching a flatearth, flat earth, that the full
four corners of the earth.
Mm-hmm.
Would be, um, brought under God.
Mm-hmm.
And that the glory of God, thepresence of God, the, um,
wellbeing of God would fill thewhole earth.
(34:06):
Mm-hmm.
And Jesus is saying to hisdisciples, go out and be
prepared to teach these peoplewho are now being drawn to that
God.
Mm-hmm.
Not go out and convert people.
Mm-hmm.
To this, but as people startedto flock into the faith, as we
(34:27):
see with Paul, more and morepeople started becoming
interested.
More and more people started tofind the teachings of Jesus to
be impactful regardless of theirfaith upbringing, right?
Mm-hmm.
They started thinking about thismore and more, and it started
become drawing a lot of people,and upon this I.
(34:50):
They have to be prepared.
How do we teach these folks?
And, uh, our last episode, wedid the first episode of season
three.
We talked about, uh, theJerusalem Council in Acts 15.
Mm-hmm.
Because that exact situationarises, how do we teach these
people Mm.
That are now interested Oh,right.
In this faith?
Yeah.
(35:10):
Who are gentiles?
Like what, what are we supposedto teach them?
And so the idea was that thedisciples.
That that just graduated, wereto go out and start discipling
people.
Yeah.
People that already wereinterested in Yahweh.
Mm-hmm.
But didn't have the teachings,didn't have the understanding,
(35:33):
and their job was to go out andstart calling these people into
discipleship.
Yeah.
That's a huge difference betweenevangelism and discipleship,
right?
Yeah.
So if you had to.
That that's, you know, this isalways a tough game that we play
almost every podcast where, youknow, the three of us, I know
(35:54):
Sarah's not here today, but thethree of us, we have a lot of
years of thinking about the textdifferently.
So we always kind of askourselves to put off some of
that learning Yeah.
That we've done over the last,you know, several years,
decades.
And think back to a time priorto that.
(36:15):
So I'm gonna ask you to do that,and I know it's always
complicated.
What, what do you, what wouldyou have said was the difference
between evangelism anddiscipleship earlier on in life?
Tana (36:32):
I'm trying to extract my current knowledge.
Yeah, it's complicated.
Yeah, it is
Don (36:36):
complicated.
I'd say a lot of us just neverthought
Tana (36:38):
about it, you know?
I think what I probably wouldhave thought at the time, Was
kind of restricted to almostlike a physicality, like
evangelism is going out andgetting people to come to
church, and then discipleship iswhat you do with them when
they're there.
Don (36:58):
I, I think that's probably Maybe not stated, but I think
that's probably what a lot ofpeople think evangelism is the
decision, discipleship isattendance.
Tana (37:10):
Yeah.
I mean, and that really was, Ifelt like what it was kind of
reduced to like discipleship waskind of like attending small
groups and going to biblestudies.
Like that was discipleship.
Yeah.
Don (37:25):
It's what's interesting is when we, we put our more
current.
Um, bald eagle Jesus into thesesettings.
We imagine that when Jesus istalking to a crowd, he's
evangelizing them.
90% of the time in the text,they're Jews.
He's not evangelizing them.
(37:45):
They already believe in Yahweh,like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
It's not evangelism that'shappening there, it's teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And yet Jesus differentiatedfrom the people who were already
a part of the faith that when hewas teaching them, he did not
confuse them with beingdisciples.
(38:06):
And I think this is key becauseI think most pastors believe
that they disciple from thepulpit every Sunday.
Yeah.
Tana (38:16):
I absolutely think that's what they think they're doing.
But that's not
Don (38:19):
discipleship, right?
That's teaching.
That's teaching.
Yeah.
And I can give you an example ofthat, right?
So all these people come outonto, into the wilderness to
hear Jesus teach.
Mm-hmm.
We have a miracle of fish andloaves that happens.
Right?
Okay.
In the midst of all this,there's a moment where the crowd
is pressing up against Jesus.
Jesus has just gotten outta theboat.
It's a, it's within these fewchapters of the fishes and
(38:43):
wolves, Jesus gets out of theboat.
And the crowd is pressing in.
Yeah.
The disciples are still in theboat.
Okay.
These, this crowd are all peoplethat want to hear the teachings
of Jesus.
Yeah.
They're all there to hear him.
They're all there because whatJesus talks about when he, when
(39:03):
he talks about God and when hetalks about faith is something
that stirs their hearts.
Yeah.
Right.
Jesus looks at them and says, Itsays he turns from the crowd and
tells his disciples to cross thesea.
Hmm.
I think that's such a profoundmoment.
(39:23):
Hmm.
Tana (39:24):
He's differentiating between crowd and disciples.
Don (39:27):
Yes.
Sundays at church are crowds.
Crowds.
The disciples are somethingdifferent.
And I think that this isimportant because one, I.
Jesus didn't imagine that the5,000 people that were there
were his disciples.
Sure.
(39:47):
Yeah.
But I would argue that a pastorwho has a church of 5,000 mm
would be a bit confused I as towho their disciples are.
Yeah.
And the other thing I would sayis not everyone is called to be
a disciple.
Oh, interesting.
So, And I think this, this issuch a, this is another high
(40:11):
pressure thing we were talkingabout the high pressure of
evangelism.
This is a high pressure thingthat I think is unfair.
Mm-hmm.
When Jesus is, uh, at the templeand his parents are looking for
him, he says, didn't you knowI'd be about my father's
business?
So at the time of Jesus, the waythings worked within Jewish
(40:34):
culture, and I'm sure a lot ofthe surrounding cultures, well,
I don't know that this wasunique to Judaism, was that, um,
whatever skill.
Because we're getting more intourbanization where there's trade
and markets and stuff, and it'snot just self-sustaining.
And so people developedindividual skills.
His father a carpenter, whichmost likely was more a mason
(40:56):
than a carpenter because there'snot a whole lot of, it's not
like there's forests everywhere.
Uh, and so it's most likely aRight.
Yeah.
A mason.
Yeah.
And when Jesus is at the.
Uh, at the temple.
He says, I, I'm about myfather's business, James and
(41:16):
John, the, the Thunder Brothers.
Right?
They they are fishing?
Mm-hmm.
Why?
Because their father was afisherman.
Mm-hmm.
And they went into the father'sbusiness.
Mm-hmm.
Instead of what?
Tana (41:32):
Instead of anything else.
Don (41:36):
Instead of going into discipleship.
Mm.
Right.
Because the rabbis.
Would call people intodiscipleship.
So, uh, Judaism was one of thefirst, if not the first, to
offer public education.
So from a very early age, youwent to school, you had to
memorize Torah, you had to doall these different things in
(41:58):
school, public school, and yourtown had a synagogue that both
functioned as a synagogue aswell as a school education, all
that stuff.
Wonderful concept.
Community center was asynagogue, right?
Yeah.
Differentiate from a temple.
And so in the synagogue youwould go in and you'd have
public school if your communitycould afford to have a rabbi.
(42:19):
And that, or at that time, rabbiwasn't an official role.
It was a title for teacher.
So if you're, if your town couldafford to have a teacher in it,
you would have a synagogue andthe students would go there and
learn.
At some point, the teacher wouldsay, okay, it's now time for you
to go do your father's work.
(42:41):
Which was around the age of 12,a Bar Mitzvah, bat mitzvah,
right At that point, now, upuntil the age of a Bar Mitzvah
or bat mitzvah, at least inancient times, the parents were
responsible for the actions andbehavior of their children.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
I don't know, you know, as kindof quick aside to our listeners,
That becomes the age ofaccountability in Western
(43:02):
Christianity.
Mm-hmm.
That mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, whatever sins youcommit before the age of a
certain thing aren't heldagainst you.
So that helps us explain awaylike if a child dies, are they
going to heaven or hell?
Right.
Which is just a terribleconversation regardless.
Right.
Yeah.
Much less to put on a parentthat just faced that tragic
loss.
Right.
But the idea was that anything,any mistakes a child made that
(43:23):
sin fell upon the parent theparent was responsible for, but
then at the Bar mitzvah, Theythen became responsible for
their own actions.
Mm-hmm.
Which was around the age of 12.
Okay.
Which is when Jesus, and at thatmoment as you become an adult,
quote unquote.
Mm-hmm.
I realize 12 is not really surewhat we'd consider an adult.
Right.
But at 12 you gained a certainlevel of autonomy you didn't
(43:44):
have mm-hmm.
Prior.
And you went into business, youeither helped with the fishing.
Mm-hmm.
Helped with the masonry orcarpentry.
Mm-hmm.
Helped with the agriculture,whatever it was.
You then went into working so.
Not to say you didn't do anychores or anything prior to
that, but at the age of 12 iswhen you really shifted.
(44:05):
Your schooling was over.
Now a unique few, and we talkedabout this a little bit again,
last podcast, that, uh, when ifthey fulfilled a certain amount
of things, they were able to goto grad school.
Mm-hmm.
And instead of being sent homemm-hmm.
To do their father's work.
(44:26):
Mm-hmm.
They stayed and studied under arabbi.
Okay.
And eventually they would becomea teacher themself.
Yeah.
And it was very few that everbecame a teacher.
Mm.
Very, very few.
Right.
So, so to, if you think aboutthe numbers from high school to,
uh, undergrad, to master's toPhD, the percentage of people
(44:51):
that end up with a PhD Sure.
Is really small.
So, Because not everyone's cutout to do a PhD.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And they either don't want to,they're not good at it,
whatever.
Not everyone has, and weshouldn't all walk around
thinking that we're terriblebecause we don't have a PhD.
Right.
Right.
Even though you, Dr.
Schiewer probably think thatabout all of us.
Tana (45:14):
Yes.
I look down on everybody whodoes not have a PhD.
Don (45:17):
I feel that daily.
So in this picture, uh, Jesushas surpassed, he has fulfilled
the obligations to move on tograd school.
Mm-hmm.
And he becomes a teacher.
Mm-hmm.
Or a rabbi.
Mm-hmm.
Not official role, like itbecomes after 70 ce, but at this
(45:37):
time was still called Rabbi,which just meant teacher.
Mm-hmm.
And he becomes this teacher.
And so he is now teaching peopleand we have to recognize that
not everyone is.
Is a disciple.
Yeah.
Not everyone is a PhD.
Yeah.
And I'm not trying to putdiscipleship with PhD.
(45:57):
I don't know which one I'd beputting down by doing that
comparison, but I'm, but what weneed to recognize is it wasn't a
disservice, right.
For someone to not be adisciple.
Right.
But it was a unique and profoundcall like a parent would have.
Like, have you ever thoughtabout like what was Jam James
(46:18):
and John's dad's reaction whenthey drop the fricking nets.
Right.
Leave them.
Yeah.
And go after Jesus?
Yeah.
Like what, what do you think,what do you think their, their
father's reaction to that was?
Like, if we use our, our normalidea of all of
Tana (46:38):
this, like a, like a.
Current kind of, yeah.
You know, like I, I thinkcurrently if something like that
were to happen, the father wouldbe mad.
You, you are irresponsible.
You just, and you, you've, youdropped the family business and
so also sad and hurt and Yeah.
Don (46:54):
You know, instead, what do you think he actually probably
felt.
Tana (46:59):
Like pride.
Don (47:01):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
He was probably like, I'll cleanthe nets myself.
Tana (47:04):
Yeah.
No big deal.
Don (47:05):
Go get'em.
Yeah.
Like don't, don't even let itslow you down.
Yeah.
Like, like I'll send clothes,just go Right.
Like this, this rabbi walked by,saw my boys and saw something in
them that I had always seen inthem.
Mm-hmm.
But they got the short stick.
They never, they were neveraccepted because they were from
Nazareth or wherever.
(47:25):
Right.
Like they never got anywhere.
And this teacher comes by andeveryone's talking about how he
has authority.
Tana (47:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (47:34):
And how he's this great teacher and he sees my boys.
Tana (47:38):
Yeah.
Don (47:38):
And he's like, you come with me.
So I think that the scene isjust really powerful and
important, and I think it's alsopowerful and important to
recognize that the people thatJesus didn't call to
discipleship, who werefishermen, he still showed up
(48:00):
and healed them.
He still went out into thehillsides to teach them.
He still looked at them andloved them.
He still cared about them.
They were still the mostimportant things to them, and I
think that we feel in some waythat we're either disciples or
(48:21):
we're not.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I agree with that, butit's more so like if, like in or
out, and that's not the case.
Mm.
Like I've, I grew up in a churchthat you know, is very much anti
Christmas and Easters like rolltheir eyes like, oh, you only
show up two times a year.
(48:41):
Oh, Uhhuh.
I don't think Jesus got upsetabout that.
I think Jesus looked at peoplethat, I mean, it'd be strange
for them to show up at Christmasand Easter, uh, when Jesus was
around, but, um, show up for hisbirthday party.
Uh, but I think Jesus would lookat them and have compassion and
(49:05):
be like, life is hard.
Life is busy.
It's complicated.
And I'm glad that you're heretoday.
Tana (49:10):
Yeah.
Don (49:10):
And while you're here, I have something to say that
hopefully brings you hope.
Encouragement and reminds you ofthe love of God.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that then there'speople that attend two times a
month and then four times amonth and never miss a Sunday
ever.
And then people who, uh,volunteer at the church or do
(49:31):
extras here and there within thefaith or lead a nonprofit that
is
Tana (49:36):
Yeah,
Don (49:37):
based in faithful behavior and ideas.
Mm-hmm.
And some people are going to bepastors, and I also don't
believe that all pastors aredisciples.
Mm.
And that's okay.
Right?
There's nothing that says
Tana (49:51):
they're not disciples or they're not disciplers?
Don (49:54):
Both.
Tana (49:55):
Okay.
Don (49:55):
You can't be a disciple if you're not a disciple.
Tana (49:57):
Okay.
Don (49:57):
Yeah.
And that's the other piece Ithink a lot of people are trying
to disciple when they themselveshaven't.
Ben.
Yeah.
And it's important to understanddiscipleship doesn't look, can't
look the way it did in Jesus'sdays.
We've lost that rhythm.
Tana (50:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (50:19):
We no longer have someone like I think about.
Cabinetry, I think is such agreat example.
Mm-hmm.
Like the, there's woodworkerswho are just known and renowned
woodworkers mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Who have mentors.
Mm-hmm.
Or there, they mentor youngerpeople.
Mm-hmm.
And they teach them.
And what you do is you see thatperson's work 20 years later
(50:42):
after they're done beingapprenticed.
Mm-hmm.
And typically at this point, thementor has died and that's why
you're starting to see theirwork instead of them just
helping, right.
The master.
Yeah.
And I.
You go, ah, I can see all of theteachings of your, your master.
Tana (50:59):
Yeah.
Don (50:59):
In your work.
Tana (51:00):
Yeah.
Don (51:01):
And we don't have that anymore.
We don't, we do that in certainthings.
I'd say martial arts is one thatwe do it.
Like people follow a sensei or a
Tana (51:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (51:08):
A teacher for a long time and they learn all about them.
Yeah.
But we don't have that very muchin Christianity anymore.
So a lot of people'sdiscipleship is reading,
studying, listening to amultiplicity of voices.
Mm-hmm.
And, but we need more people toconsolidate that.
Tana (51:26):
Yeah.
Don (51:26):
And then pour uniquely into individuals to help them learn,
uh, as opposed to, cause that'svery daunting to have, to learn
across all these things.
So that being said, the greatCommission is this powerful
moment where Jesus is saying, Ihad a unique gift mm-hmm.
(51:49):
given to me.
Which was insight into the text.
Mm-hmm.
And I have trained you, I havediscipled you.
Mm-hmm.
And it's now time.
And today is your graduation.
Mm.
And now your job is to go outand teach everyone these things.
And in the midst of that, findpeople who want to learn
(52:13):
everything I taught.
Yeah.
Then commission them to go andmake more disciples that teaches
everyone that they come incontact with, but find a unique
feud to pour into.
Yeah.
I think that that's just areally powerful and beautiful
thing, and I think in a lot ofways in our attempt to create a
sense of ease of participationin our faith, we have lost some
(52:40):
of the depth and beauty of someof the higher callings in our
faith, which is to discipleshipand discipling, um, because
we've reduced it to a prayer andan attendance.
Yeah.
And I think that's robbed us.
I think that's why ChrisChristianity in the West has
become so there I say, uh,neutered.
(53:04):
Mm, yeah.
Insignificant, yeah.
Powerless.
Except for when it's angry.
Right.
And it's because we no longerare taking discipleship serious.
We're only concerned aboutevangelism.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Tana (53:23):
I just, uh, I think it's really important that we, uh,
understand the differencebetween evangelism and
discipleship.
And I think the world would bebetter off if there was more of
an effort to make disciplesrather than simply converts.
Don (53:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
So what does Jesus say aboutconverts?
Tana (53:43):
You'll cross the sea to find, make a single convert and
turn them into twice the sons ofhell you are?
Don (53:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's one of my favorites.
Yeah.
Go Jesus.
Tana (53:53):
And, and that's honestly, I feel like we're seeing that.
Just no, no discipleship, notruly trying to follow Jesus,
but just converts and then usingthat conversion as a weapon.
Don (54:16):
You nailed it.
Tana (54:17):
So, uh, thank you for joining us today.
If you wanna interact with usmore, in between episodes,
please check us out on all thesocials.
You can go to our website,ajffpodcast.com, and there's
links there to all the socialsand, If you'd like to support
what we're doing, check out, buyme a coffee.com/a JFF and you
(54:39):
can become a member or justleave us a little token of
support.
So thank you and we'll see younext time.
Bye.
We imagine that when Jesus is talking to a crowd, he's
(00:02):
evangelizing them.
90% of the time in the text,they're Jews.
He's not evangelizing them.
It's not evangelism that'shappening there, it's teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And yet Jesus differentiatedfrom the people who were already
a part of the faith that when hewas teaching them, he did not
confuse them with beingdisciples.
(00:23):
And I think this is key becauseI think most pastors believe
that they disciple from thepulpit every Sunday.
Tana (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
Sarah's on break today.
So it is Don Schiewer.
Hello and me, Tana Schiewer.
Hello.
I, I don't know how to, I feelstrange introducing myself.
I don't know what it is.
It is, I, Tana Schiewer.
(00:58):
Anyway, uh, so today we're gonnabe talking about the Great
Commission, and I'm going tostart off by reading, uh, verses
16 through 19, which say, uh, Ibelieve this is the NIV that I'm
reading from.
Then the 11 disciples went toGalilee, to the mountain where
(01:19):
Jesus had told them to go.
When they saw him, theyworshiped him, but some doubted.
Then Jesus came to them andsaid, all authority in Heaven
and on earth has been given tome.
Therefore, go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and of the Holy Spirit.
(01:42):
So, Yes.
Uh, what were you taught aboutthe Great Commission growing up?
Don (01:51):
You know, it was, it was heavy, right?
Yeah.
Like, it was like I wasresponsible for the salvation of
people.
Mm.
That.
What happened if I did not takemy one opportunity to witness to
someone and that person died ina car accident, geez, and I
(02:12):
could have prevented theireternal damnation right now.
I don't know if it was everstated that succinctly to me,
but that is definitely theimpression I carried with me
through a large portion of mylife, probably through my early
twenties.
I had a sense of regret andsadness about friendships I had
(02:36):
in high school that I wasashamed of the gospel, quote
unquote.
So I wouldn't share my faithwith them, with people, and that
in some way if something were tohave happened to them.
That I'd be responsible fortheir torture for eternity.
Tana (02:55):
That's a lot of pressure to put on young people, any
person.
But I mean, especially growingup.
Yeah, I, the interesting thingis growing up in the Catholic
church, I don't remember thatbeing as much of an emphasis.
Don (03:11):
Yeah.
And you also just don't careabout eternal torture of other
people.
Because
Tana (03:15):
only Catholics are getting into heaven.
Don (03:18):
See, the laughter, the laughter proves my point.
Tana (03:21):
Uh, yes, I don't care.
Uh, but I remember when Iswitched from Catholicism and
started going to, uh, Protestantchurch.
I remember the great commissionbeing emphasized a lot like
growing up in.
(03:42):
The nineties evangelical sort ofworld.
I felt like it was very, verymuch about getting souls, you
know?
Yep.
Like it was very, um, you haveto be an evangelist and you, it
is incumbent upon you tobasically like preach at every
single
Don (04:02):
person that made, and, and that didn't lead you to feel
what I was feeling.
Tana (04:06):
Um, so I.
I don't remember feeling.
Don (04:15):
And by the way, I wanna say I hope it didn't because it was
a horrible thing to feel andit's a lie.
Tana (04:21):
Yeah.
I would have to really go backand try to remember the thing
that sticks out to me the mostwas, uh, I was struggling with
the idea that every singleperson had to be an evangelist
and what that was supposed tolook like.
Don (04:35):
Yeah.
That's a different kind ofpressure, but still it's just a
ton
Tana (04:38):
of pressure.
Yeah.
And.
It was so antithetical to who Iwas like, I was not gonna be
That person who gets on theplane sits down and looks at the
person in the seat next to meand goes, do you believe in
Jesus Christ as your Lord andSavior?
You know, uh, well if you
Don (04:56):
use that voice,
Tana (04:59):
yeah, I'd probably get a lot of no go away, but I.
That, and that was very muchwhat was presented to me as the
like, that's what you should bedoing.
And to me, although I didn'thave really like the language
for it at the time, that feltvery um, Like the wrong
(05:22):
emphasis.
It, it, it felt very like, itactually to me, I was like,
well, I feel like that woulddrive people away, especially
the way I would see some peopledoing evangelism.
Right?
Sure.
Um, especially when it would besort of like the turn or burn
kind of kind of message, right.
Of, you know, well, do you, doyou feel like you have your
(05:42):
salvation?
Do you wanna go to hell?
Like, what kind of message isthat?
To, to get somebody to believe.
Right.
So I just,
Don (05:52):
I mean, fear is a very powerful motivator.
Just look at our current GOP Ohyeah,
Tana (05:57):
yeah.
Everything's fear based.
Um, but the.
For me, it was trying tountangle that pressure of, oh,
I'm supposed to be doing thisthing, and then the guilt of I'm
not doing this thing because itmakes me very uncomfortable and
(06:18):
it is not my personality, and Idon't even, I wouldn't even know
what to say to somebody.
I wouldn't know how to arguewith them if I needed to argue
with them.
You know what I'm saying?
So, Yeah.
But I, I do remember that beinglike, the goal, you have to get,
save all these souls.
And it was always about that andnot about really helping anyone
(06:40):
in any way.
It was more just like, well, istheir soul saved?
Okay.
Nothing else matters.
Oh, right.
Don (06:47):
Because people, if you, if you're helping people in a
different way, the the phrasethat often got tossed around,
Towards me or that I would hearwould be, well man cannot
survive on bread alone.
That one Yes, yes.
Implying that, um, but by thevery word of God, and therefore
that means evangelism and thatto take care of a person's needs
(07:10):
was not enough that we alsoneeded to evangelize them.
And that even to do the firstwithout the second was in some
way a, a negative.
And that's, that was reallysomething that, that I was hit
with a lot.
(07:31):
That this isn't about, you know,if it was a soup kitchen, it
wasn't about whether or not theperson's stomach was full.
It was whether or not they alsoheard the gospel message while
they were eating
Tana (07:44):
right.
And that makes me think of a lotof the stuff that came out of
this period of time, which was,uh, tracts the, the evangelism
tracts tracts and the, the, um,folded money that would look
like you're leaving a big tip onthe table.
But it was actually like alittle evangelism
Don (08:06):
tool.
Yeah.
Quick, quick side story, and Imay have told this on this
podcast, or if not, maybe on theEvangebros podcast that I used
to do.
But, uh, I was, I had taken someseminary classes and one of the
seminary courses I took wasEvangelism and Discipleship.
So it might come up again inthis discussion today.
Oh, interesting.
But it, uh, one of theindividuals there said, I always
(08:31):
like to leave as a tip.
Oh, no.
One of these, one of thesethings.
Uh, and they were referring toone of these bills that looks
like a$50 bill or$20 bill, butwhen you open it, it's actually
a Salvation mm-hmm.
Tract right?
Mm-hmm.
And when she said that, sh I, Idon't remember the exact
(08:53):
conversation.
This has been, man, probably 15years ago or longer.
And they, she had said somethingto the effect of basically let
the, let space for people toapplaud her.
Mm.
Or mm-hmm.
Left room for people to be like,wow, that's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Because we were talking aboutevangelism in this evangelism
(09:13):
and discipleship class.
Mm-hmm.
And I said, that just makes youan asshole.
And the class stops.
Like it just stops.
You hear a record scratch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Basically.
And, and when the class stopped,the woman who was sharing this
about that she likes to do this,raises her hand and the
(09:36):
professor's like, yes.
And she's like, can he swear inhere?
And I said, I'm a fucking adult.
And the professor's like, We, weprefer if maybe we didn't have
profanity in class, but there isnothing against him swearing and
(09:57):
they were more upset that Iswore.
It reminds me of like the, oh,Tony Campolo yeah, the Tony
Campolo where he says, uh, youknow, today a hundred thousand
or a thousand children die andno one gives a shit.
In fact, you're more upset thatI said shit than all these
children are dying.
Mm-hmm.
Anyhow, more upset about that,but.
Yes.
So that is my, my side sidestory on those tracks that look
(10:23):
like money.
And I just said, look, I'vewaited tables and it's a
grueling job.
Mm-hmm.
And when you finally get someonethat it looks like they not only
tipped appropriately, but theyactually tipped extravagantly
and you're remembering all thepeople that left change.
Yeah.
On the table or nothing.
(10:44):
No.
Or nothing, and you finally seethat$20 bill or you see
something and, and then you,when you grab it, you find out
that it's a message about Jesus.
It's, it's not hope.
No, it's not helpful.
Mm-hmm.
In fact, it's aggravating andupsetting.
(11:05):
I think that those.
I'm sure someone somewhere isstill handing those out.
I have a feeling that those havekind of gone the way of the
buffalo.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that we're not seeing thoseany longer, but yeah.
Yeah.
That's my, that's my story withthat.
I called someone an asshole, uh,in my seminary class.
Tana (11:29):
I mean, that's not shocking to me.
Uh, but, but I mean, I rem and Iremember thinking at the time,
These are ways to actually drivepeople away.
Yeah.
You know, I feel like some ofthe tools that people used were
more detrimental than helpful
Don (11:48):
and it's, it's also a, so when you read that, I, I asked
you to stop at 19.
Yes.
And the reason I asked you tostop at 19 is because I think
that's where most people hearthis talk.
Can you just read the actualgreat commission up through the
end of 19?
To start, don't you said
Tana (12:08):
a little bit earlier when I said Jesus came to them.
Okay.
All authority in heaven on Earthhas been given to me.
Therefore, go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Now
Don (12:22):
my experience growing up, and maybe others have had a
different one that's we treatedthe end of 19 as if there was a
period there.
What is the actual punctuationat the end of 19?
Uh, comma, which implies what?
There's more and what is thatmore?
Tana (12:39):
And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don (12:43):
This is really significant, right.
That the, and teaching themeverything that I have commanded
you.
A tract is not doing that.
Mm-hmm.
You are not teaching peopleeverything that Jesus commanded.
You're not doing anything, youare behaving as a surrogate, not
(13:07):
even Right.
And, and in this instance, it'sjust, it is probably one of the
great, I always use, I'm sobombastic.
One of the greatest atrocitiesthat we do in Christendom is
that we've reduced the greatcommission to evangelism.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
(13:27):
And I would argue, Jesus did nothave evangelism in mind.
Mm.
When he gave the GreatCommission.
So I don't think that in thispassage, the word commission is
used.
Right.
That's our heading.
Uh, I think you could argue, andtherefore Jesus commissioned
(13:50):
them could be implied.
But when you hear the wordcommission, Tana.
What does that mean to you?
If something is commissioned,uh, or someone commissions
someone, what is the, what isthe the meaning of that?
Tana (14:06):
I always think of like paintings or compositions of
like a wealthy patroncommissioned someone to do a
specific thing,
Don (14:16):
and so what would then, how would that apply to the
disciples here when you'rethinking about now Jesus is
commissioning them.
Tana (14:25):
He's telling them to do it.
Don (14:29):
So in this idea of like when we do, uh, commencement
speeches, which I'd be curiousif those have a similar Uh huh.
Background or graduationspeeches, we will commission
the, the students to now go andtake what they've learned.
(14:52):
Yeah.
And extend it.
You now are no longer thestudent.
Right?
Not to say that you can't keeplearning, but you now have
graduating, you are now being,uh, commissioned to go use your
skills that you have learnedmm-hmm.
(15:12):
In the ways that benefit,however, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if, if that is indeed the waythat we should read this, Then,
then what kind of, does anythingshift in this reading for you if
you read it more from that, uh,perspective?
Tana (15:30):
Yeah, because then I, I, I couldn't make the connection at
first with like the money partof like, oh, a rich patron pays
money.
But basically what that patronis doing by paying money to a
painter, for example, is givingthem the, the kind of giving
them the tools they need to makethe painting, right?
Because, They can take thatmoney and go get the supplies
(15:50):
they need and it compensatesthem for their time with a
graduation.
Uh, the students have learned,you know, they have, they have
been taught these things allthroughout the.
The, the college experience,they are granted a degree and so
therefore they are equipped togo do the thing.
So then that makes me think likeJesus is like, well, I have
(16:12):
equipped you now.
I have taught you, you have beenwith me, and so you now have the
tools you need to go do thisthing.
Don (16:20):
Right.
It's graduation day.
Yeah.
No, I'm being, I'm being veryserious.
Yeah.
This is the Apostle's graduationday.
Hmm.
And Jesus is saying, yourdiscipleship with me is over.
Mm.
We finished.
We have completed your teaching.
We have completed youreducation.
(16:41):
And now your job graduatingdiscipleship school is that you
are now the discipler.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And what does a discipler do?
Disciples.
And what does a discipler who isdiscipling do.
Tana (17:00):
Um, so teaches, but also as an example, like it's not
just like a classroom you wouldthink of, you know, you go and
you listen to a lecture orwhatever.
The discipler takes them alongwith them lives, life with them,
(17:23):
and acts as the example for howthey should be, and also teaches
them everything they need toknow.
Don (17:36):
Good job.
So you seem so confident.
So there's another passage that,and we'll circle back then to
this because I think it'simportant to lay a little bit of
groundwork.
So there's a passage that mightsound familiar to you and the
listener that is.
It says, uh, something to theeffect of who gives you
(17:59):
authority.
Right?
And this is a really interestingmoment.
Jesus is doing something.
Jesus' is teaching, andsomeone's response to Jesus's
teaching is, where does this manget his authority?
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And that's an importantquestion.
(18:20):
And it's probably meanssomething differently than what
many of us heard growing up inthe church.
So when you hear that, uh, andyou think about, you may have
never been taught on thisspecific passage, growing that
specific verse growing up, butcompiling all the things you
learned growing up in thechurch, whether it's the
(18:42):
Catholic church, protestantchurch, whatever, how would you
imagine understanding that?
Tana (18:50):
Yeah.
Understanding the question ofwho gives you you, yeah.
What are
Don (18:53):
they asking Jesus, or what are they asking about Jesus?
Tana (18:57):
Who taught you, who was your rabbi?
Don (19:01):
So I think that that is probably what most people would
think.
Mm-hmm.
But the language used thereactually implies something else.
Because what it implies is thatJesus had a unique authority.
Mm-hmm.
Quote unquote.
Mm-hmm.
To interpret the Bible.
(19:22):
Okay.
That Jesus had an uniqueauthority where Jesus imagined
he could say something such as,you have heard it said, but I
tell you.
Oh, right.
Sound familiar?
Yes.
Yes.
Because that was basically ano-no.
Unless you had this uniqueauthority.
(19:43):
Oh, right, because you were onlysupposed to teach what,
Tana (19:51):
I guess like Torah standard, what
Don (19:54):
someone with authority taught you.
Right?
Right.
So only in only a handful ofpeople throughout Jewish history
had, what was this uniqueauthority?
Where they were able to give abrand new interpretation.
They were able to take us a textand they were able to say, you
(20:16):
have heard.
But I tell you.
Tell
Tana (20:18):
you.
So is that certain rabbis, likeHillel
Don (20:22):
Hillel would've been someone with authority?
Yep.
Rashi.
Is that one of them?
Rashi, I'm guessing, would'vehad authority.
Um, Uh, Gamliel probably wouldnot gile.
That was one.
Okay.
Probably would not have.
And that's Hillel's grandson.
Oh, okay.
So he probably only taughtHillel's teachings.
Okay.
Right.
(20:43):
Jesus agrees with Hillel onalmost everything except for
divorce.
Divorce.
And I would argue.
That would've been confusing topeople because you taught what
your teacher said, and I thinkyou could make a case that Jesus
was probably taught by Hillel orGalio or someone within that,
(21:03):
within that system.
Tana (21:04):
So who gave those people?
Like how did you know that thosewere the people who had that
authority?
So you had
Don (21:09):
to have two people, Uhhuh, who had authority.
Okay.
Give authority to you.
Tana (21:16):
Oh.
Interesting.
Okay.
So when they were asking Jesus,who gives you this authority,
they expected him to name tworabbis.
Don (21:27):
Yes.
And do you remember what it isthat Jesus, uh, what goes on in
this scene?
I think he
Tana (21:34):
says, like my father,
Don (21:36):
so John the Baptist, who people believed had authority.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
So John the Baptist, uh, andGod, Or Jesus's witnesses right
now, it could be debated, like,okay, way to pull the God card.
Jesus.
Right?
Sure.
Yeah.
(21:56):
Yeah.
What a dick move.
Yeah.
Um, but, but this is where Jesusis like, they're not gonna
listen.
They're not gonna hear it.
They're gonna be like, whatever.
Right.
So, but this is an importantthing is that as Jesus is coming
up, Through the ranks, so tospeak, or as he's preaching
around, there became this thingwhere he speaks and you'll hear
(22:17):
it.
He speaks with authority.
Right, right.
When you hear that, when youread that in the text and it
talks about Jesus's teachingwith authority Uhhuh, it doesn't
mean that he was confident andhe had chutzpah it.
It means instead that he wasreinterpreting long held views
of the text in unique and newways.
(22:40):
I.
Right.
And if you heard someone doingthat, you should be suspicious
unless you knew who it was thatsaid, anointed him basically to
say, you may makeinterpretations, you know the
text, you are close enough toGod, you have done all the
things.
Correct, that you have thisauthority.
(23:02):
Mm-hmm.
To now be able to interpret thetext.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
People when they heard Jesusteach.
Were blown away.
Mm-hmm.
They were, they were astoundedat his teachings.
Mm-hmm.
And then they would ask, who isit that gave this man such
authority?
Mm.
Who is it that allowed this manto teach in these ways that are
blowing our minds, who arechanging the ways that we're
(23:23):
thinking about the world?
Who has given him mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Authority.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So why does that matter for theGreat Commission?
Tana (23:36):
Uh, well, Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth
has been given to me.
Yes.
He uses the word
Don (23:43):
authority there.
Yes.
The ability to interpret, notI'm in charge.
Right.
Right.
Like you have to understand notI'm in charge and I'm king, but
that I have an ability or I havehas been bestowed upon me.
A uniqueness to see andunderstand the world and
(24:05):
faithfulness and God.
Yeah.
Salvation, uh, which meanssafety and empire.
And I have been given thisunique authority and now do what
with it, uh,
Tana (24:20):
commission you.
Don (24:22):
What does verse 20 say?
Tana (24:25):
Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Don (24:29):
Yes.
Go and teach my teachings.
Yeah,
Tana (24:32):
yeah, yeah.
So this is Jesus being the rabbisaying, I have given
Don (24:36):
you.
Not authority.
No.
He is not giving them authority.
Oh, he's saying I haveauthority.
I have authority.
Teach what?
I not teach my teachings.
He has not given them authority.
Tana (24:46):
Okay, so I have a question.
Yes.
Uh, I know Paul wasn't adisciple, but it feels like Paul
kind of expanded on some thingsthat Jesus said.
Don (25:03):
So I think, I think you're correct and incorrect
simultaneously.
Woo.
Sweet spot.
I think the way that we have,uh, because of the lens that has
been handed us mm-hmm.
We read Paul that way.
Mm-hmm.
I think that if you read Paulthrough a, uh, Jewish lens
(25:25):
mm-hmm.
Uh, that it's, doesn't feel thesame way, it doesn't feel like
he is.
Like stepping outside ofboundaries.
Uh, great book.
Pamela Eisenberg.
Paul was not a Christian.
Uh, wonderful, wonderful book.
I always say when I recommendthat book that, um, that the
(25:47):
title, I feel like the title wasgiven by, uh, the publisher
because Pamela Eisen Baum's uh,handling of Paul is so kind.
And generous towards Christians.
She's a Jewish scholar whoteaches New Testament and early
Christian, uh, uh, history.
(26:09):
Mm-hmm.
And she's so kind in that bookand she is not like, it's not at
all like confrontational, butthe title feels very
confrontational.
Paul was not a Christian.
Mm.
Uh, so it's, anyhow, highlyrecommend it.
Wonderful book.
If you want to kind of read, ifyou want the op opportunity in
a.
(26:30):
Easily digestible book or fairlyeasily digestible book to, uh,
kind of hear paw through a lensthat doesn't feel like he is,
uh, going against or taking somecreative license, uh, as, as you
were referring.
So, yeah.
Tana (26:48):
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Uh, I actually interrupted youwith that question.
So you were talking about what,um, that Jesus had commissioned
the, uh, disciples to teach whathe had taught them.
Correct.
Don (27:00):
So this is one of the things that I think is, is
always fascinating is that wewant Jesus to always be unique,
like a hundred percent unique.
In fact, earlier I mentionedthat Jesus was probably brought
up in the School of Hillel.
And for some people that's like,you know, mind, mind blowing.
Tana (27:20):
Oh, right, right.
Like that he could have had ateacher
Don (27:22):
and was Yeah.
Like, what?
Yeah.
But yet we see in the passagethat talks about him, uh,
hanging out at the temple.
And his parents are looking forhim around the age of a Bar
Mitzvah.
Mm-hmm.
That, uh, you know, he, he'slike, where else would I have
been?
I'm about my father's work, soI'm at my father's house and it
(27:43):
says, and he was sitting on thesteps.
Basically interacting with therabbis or the teachers.
Mm-hmm.
Which means he was learning.
Mm-hmm.
I think sometimes in our, in ourAmerican bald eagle, Jesus, we,
like at his baptism, it was nota dove.
A bald eagle draped in anAmerican flag comes out of the
(28:03):
sky and, and God says thispatriot of whom I'm, well
please.
Right.
That we imagine Jesus washolding court.
Right?
We do.
Yes.
Yes.
That, that Jesus was there andJesus was like, he was telling,
and he was blowing their minds,right?
And they were like, oh my gosh,who was this kid?
(28:23):
Yeah.
Um, and, but, but that's notwhat most likely happened.
I, I mean, obviously I wasn'tthere, so I, I can't for certain
say, but it seems more likelythat Jesus was there listening
and he was proudly asking.
(28:43):
Phenomenal questions.
Mm.
And he was engaging the teachersin a way that they probably
viewed him and were like, thisis a great potential student.
Mm.
Now we don't really hearanything about Jesus again until
he's 30.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think this is importantbecause I would argue the reason
(29:06):
you wouldn't hear anything aboutJesus until he's 30 is because
that's, 30 is the age at whichyou were able to start teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And you weren't, you weren'tsupposed to teach until the age
of 30.
Mm.
Right.
And boy, wouldn't we be betteroff if, uh, oh my gosh.
Particularly, uh, yeah.
Anything
Tana (29:26):
25 year old Evange- bros.
Don (29:27):
Yes.
So, and I would argue that fromthe age of 12 to 30 mm-hmm.
That is about the amount of timethat you would've been being
discipled.
Mm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And because of that, I wouldargue, Jesus, we don't hear
anything about Jesus from 12 to30 because he was, uh, in a
(29:50):
yeshiva.
Um, and he was being, I probablymispronounce that, but he was,
he was being trained to be ateacher.
And at some point in the midstof that, It becomes clear that
he has authority.
Mm.
And it, he begins teaching.
And from the first day we seehim out on the, you know,
(30:14):
countryside teaching peopleperceive he as authority.
So now Jesus at Jesus would havebeen at around the age of 30
commissioned his teacher.
If.
Plausible.
I, I'd say it's plausible.
I don't, I can't say for certainJesus was discipled, but if
(30:35):
Jesus was discipled, Jesuswould've had a commencement day
in which his teacher would'vegot up and said, now it is your
job to go and make disciples.
Hmm.
And, and then Jesus and hisfellow graduates would've left
(30:56):
at that moment, and theywould've begun.
Finding people to disciple, theywould've started calling
disciples.
Disciples would've started, uh,being attracted to them and
coming to them and asking to bediscipled by them.
And as their name grew, and byname I mean character and
reputation, not, uh, likesometimes we can make that icky,
(31:20):
and I, I really just mean as, asJesus's reputation or anybody's
reputation grew.
Mm-hmm.
People would start coming tothem.
Mm-hmm.
And they would no longer have tocall someone to discipleship,
but people would be attracted tothem and want to be discipled by
them.
And we see that immediately asJesus, you know, in the first
couple chapters of every gospelis basically Jesus calling
(31:42):
disciples.
Yeah.
Right After we get over thebirth narrative and Yeah.
Everything we, we see thesemoments where Jesus is calling
people because he has begun at30.
To disciple, right?
He's gone through a greatcommissioning, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and, and so Jesus did thesethings.
Now Jesus is saying to hisdisciples, I who have authority,
(32:05):
am now calling you to go andmake disciples.
And because of that, they'resent out.
Mm.
Now, What do you imagine isunique?
Because this is not unique, thisprocess, but what is relatively
unique is something in thatverse.
(32:27):
What, what do you imagine is theunique thing in that verse?
Tana (32:34):
Um, so wait, which verse are you talking about?
Are you talking about the entiregreat commission or are you
talking about specific.
Don (32:44):
Probably 19 would be my guess.
Tana (32:46):
Therefore, go and make disciples, baptize all that.
Don (32:50):
Yes.
But you skipped the
Tana (32:51):
unique part.
Sorry.
Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations.
Baptizing them.
Na, all nations.
Yes.
Okay.
Don (32:59):
Because discipleship would've been Jewish children.
Right, right.
And one of the things that Jesusdoes that I think is
interesting.
And unique, and whether this issomething added by an author
because the disciples or theapostles started doing this, I
don't know, but this idea ofgoing and making disciples of
(33:22):
all nations mm-hmm.
Is fascinating.
Mm-hmm.
Because that wouldn't havenecessarily been something that
one thought about.
And I think it's important forus to recognize that Jesus had
this perspective that in thesame way that Paul did, that now
(33:43):
that the Messiah had come, thatthe four corners of the earth.
Mm-hmm.
This is not Paul pitching a flatearth, flat earth, that the full
four corners of the earth.
Mm-hmm.
Would be, um, brought under God.
Mm-hmm.
And that the glory of God, thepresence of God, the, um,
wellbeing of God would fill thewhole earth.
(34:06):
Mm-hmm.
And Jesus is saying to hisdisciples, go out and be
prepared to teach these peoplewho are now being drawn to that
God.
Mm-hmm.
Not go out and convert people.
Mm-hmm.
To this, but as people startedto flock into the faith, as we
(34:27):
see with Paul, more and morepeople started becoming
interested.
More and more people started tofind the teachings of Jesus to
be impactful regardless of theirfaith upbringing, right?
Mm-hmm.
They started thinking about thismore and more, and it started
become drawing a lot of people,and upon this I.
(34:50):
They have to be prepared.
How do we teach these folks?
And, uh, our last episode, wedid the first episode of season
three.
We talked about, uh, theJerusalem Council in Acts 15.
Mm-hmm.
Because that exact situationarises, how do we teach these
people Mm.
That are now interested Oh,right.
In this faith?
Yeah.
(35:10):
Who are gentiles?
Like what, what are we supposedto teach them?
And so the idea was that thedisciples.
That that just graduated, wereto go out and start discipling
people.
Yeah.
People that already wereinterested in Yahweh.
Mm-hmm.
But didn't have the teachings,didn't have the understanding,
(35:33):
and their job was to go out andstart calling these people into
discipleship.
Yeah.
That's a huge difference betweenevangelism and discipleship,
right?
Yeah.
So if you had to.
That that's, you know, this isalways a tough game that we play
almost every podcast where, youknow, the three of us, I know
(35:54):
Sarah's not here today, but thethree of us, we have a lot of
years of thinking about the textdifferently.
So we always kind of askourselves to put off some of
that learning Yeah.
That we've done over the last,you know, several years,
decades.
And think back to a time priorto that.
(36:15):
So I'm gonna ask you to do that,and I know it's always
complicated.
What, what do you, what wouldyou have said was the difference
between evangelism anddiscipleship earlier on in life?
Tana (36:32):
I'm trying to extract my current knowledge.
Yeah, it's complicated.
Yeah, it is
Don (36:36):
complicated.
I'd say a lot of us just neverthought
Tana (36:38):
about it, you know?
I think what I probably wouldhave thought at the time, Was
kind of restricted to almostlike a physicality, like
evangelism is going out andgetting people to come to
church, and then discipleship iswhat you do with them when
they're there.
Don (36:58):
I, I think that's probably Maybe not stated, but I think
that's probably what a lot ofpeople think evangelism is the
decision, discipleship isattendance.
Tana (37:10):
Yeah.
I mean, and that really was, Ifelt like what it was kind of
reduced to like discipleship waskind of like attending small
groups and going to biblestudies.
Like that was discipleship.
Yeah.
Don (37:25):
It's what's interesting is when we, we put our more
current.
Um, bald eagle Jesus into thesesettings.
We imagine that when Jesus istalking to a crowd, he's
evangelizing them.
90% of the time in the text,they're Jews.
He's not evangelizing them.
(37:45):
They already believe in Yahweh,like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
It's not evangelism that'shappening there, it's teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And yet Jesus differentiatedfrom the people who were already
a part of the faith that when hewas teaching them, he did not
confuse them with beingdisciples.
(38:06):
And I think this is key becauseI think most pastors believe
that they disciple from thepulpit every Sunday.
Yeah.
Tana (38:16):
I absolutely think that's what they think they're doing.
But that's not
Don (38:19):
discipleship, right?
That's teaching.
That's teaching.
Yeah.
And I can give you an example ofthat, right?
So all these people come outonto, into the wilderness to
hear Jesus teach.
Mm-hmm.
We have a miracle of fish andloaves that happens.
Right?
Okay.
In the midst of all this,there's a moment where the crowd
is pressing up against Jesus.
Jesus has just gotten outta theboat.
It's a, it's within these fewchapters of the fishes and
(38:43):
wolves, Jesus gets out of theboat.
And the crowd is pressing in.
Yeah.
The disciples are still in theboat.
Okay.
These, this crowd are all peoplethat want to hear the teachings
of Jesus.
Yeah.
They're all there to hear him.
They're all there because whatJesus talks about when he, when
(39:03):
he talks about God and when hetalks about faith is something
that stirs their hearts.
Yeah.
Right.
Jesus looks at them and says, Itsays he turns from the crowd and
tells his disciples to cross thesea.
Hmm.
I think that's such a profoundmoment.
(39:23):
Hmm.
Tana (39:24):
He's differentiating between crowd and disciples.
Don (39:27):
Yes.
Sundays at church are crowds.
Crowds.
The disciples are somethingdifferent.
And I think that this isimportant because one, I.
Jesus didn't imagine that the5,000 people that were there
were his disciples.
Sure.
(39:47):
Yeah.
But I would argue that a pastorwho has a church of 5,000 mm
would be a bit confused I as towho their disciples are.
Yeah.
And the other thing I would sayis not everyone is called to be
a disciple.
Oh, interesting.
So, And I think this, this issuch a, this is another high
(40:11):
pressure thing we were talkingabout the high pressure of
evangelism.
This is a high pressure thingthat I think is unfair.
Mm-hmm.
When Jesus is, uh, at the templeand his parents are looking for
him, he says, didn't you knowI'd be about my father's
business?
So at the time of Jesus, the waythings worked within Jewish
(40:34):
culture, and I'm sure a lot ofthe surrounding cultures, well,
I don't know that this wasunique to Judaism, was that, um,
whatever skill.
Because we're getting more intourbanization where there's trade
and markets and stuff, and it'snot just self-sustaining.
And so people developedindividual skills.
His father a carpenter, whichmost likely was more a mason
(40:56):
than a carpenter because there'snot a whole lot of, it's not
like there's forests everywhere.
Uh, and so it's most likely aRight.
Yeah.
A mason.
Yeah.
And when Jesus is at the.
Uh, at the temple.
He says, I, I'm about myfather's business, James and
(41:16):
John, the, the Thunder Brothers.
Right?
They they are fishing?
Mm-hmm.
Why?
Because their father was afisherman.
Mm-hmm.
And they went into the father'sbusiness.
Mm-hmm.
Instead of what?
Tana (41:32):
Instead of anything else.
Don (41:36):
Instead of going into discipleship.
Mm.
Right.
Because the rabbis.
Would call people intodiscipleship.
So, uh, Judaism was one of thefirst, if not the first, to
offer public education.
So from a very early age, youwent to school, you had to
memorize Torah, you had to doall these different things in
(41:58):
school, public school, and yourtown had a synagogue that both
functioned as a synagogue aswell as a school education, all
that stuff.
Wonderful concept.
Community center was asynagogue, right?
Yeah.
Differentiate from a temple.
And so in the synagogue youwould go in and you'd have
public school if your communitycould afford to have a rabbi.
(42:19):
And that, or at that time, rabbiwasn't an official role.
It was a title for teacher.
So if you're, if your town couldafford to have a teacher in it,
you would have a synagogue andthe students would go there and
learn.
At some point, the teacher wouldsay, okay, it's now time for you
to go do your father's work.
(42:41):
Which was around the age of 12,a Bar Mitzvah, bat mitzvah,
right At that point, now, upuntil the age of a Bar Mitzvah
or bat mitzvah, at least inancient times, the parents were
responsible for the actions andbehavior of their children.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
I don't know, you know, as kindof quick aside to our listeners,
That becomes the age ofaccountability in Western
(43:02):
Christianity.
Mm-hmm.
That mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, whatever sins youcommit before the age of a
certain thing aren't heldagainst you.
So that helps us explain awaylike if a child dies, are they
going to heaven or hell?
Right.
Which is just a terribleconversation regardless.
Right.
Yeah.
Much less to put on a parentthat just faced that tragic
loss.
Right.
But the idea was that anything,any mistakes a child made that
(43:23):
sin fell upon the parent theparent was responsible for, but
then at the Bar mitzvah, Theythen became responsible for
their own actions.
Mm-hmm.
Which was around the age of 12.
Okay.
Which is when Jesus, and at thatmoment as you become an adult,
quote unquote.
Mm-hmm.
I realize 12 is not really surewhat we'd consider an adult.
Right.
But at 12 you gained a certainlevel of autonomy you didn't
(43:44):
have mm-hmm.
Prior.
And you went into business, youeither helped with the fishing.
Mm-hmm.
Helped with the masonry orcarpentry.
Mm-hmm.
Helped with the agriculture,whatever it was.
You then went into working so.
Not to say you didn't do anychores or anything prior to
that, but at the age of 12 iswhen you really shifted.
(44:05):
Your schooling was over.
Now a unique few, and we talkedabout this a little bit again,
last podcast, that, uh, when ifthey fulfilled a certain amount
of things, they were able to goto grad school.
Mm-hmm.
And instead of being sent homemm-hmm.
To do their father's work.
(44:26):
Mm-hmm.
They stayed and studied under arabbi.
Okay.
And eventually they would becomea teacher themself.
Yeah.
And it was very few that everbecame a teacher.
Mm.
Very, very few.
Right.
So, so to, if you think aboutthe numbers from high school to,
uh, undergrad, to master's toPhD, the percentage of people
(44:51):
that end up with a PhD Sure.
Is really small.
So, Because not everyone's cutout to do a PhD.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And they either don't want to,they're not good at it,
whatever.
Not everyone has, and weshouldn't all walk around
thinking that we're terriblebecause we don't have a PhD.
Right.
Right.
Even though you, Dr.
Schiewer probably think thatabout all of us.
Tana (45:14):
Yes.
I look down on everybody whodoes not have a PhD.
Don (45:17):
I feel that daily.
So in this picture, uh, Jesushas surpassed, he has fulfilled
the obligations to move on tograd school.
Mm-hmm.
And he becomes a teacher.
Mm-hmm.
Or a rabbi.
Mm-hmm.
Not official role, like itbecomes after 70 ce, but at this
(45:37):
time was still called Rabbi,which just meant teacher.
Mm-hmm.
And he becomes this teacher.
And so he is now teaching peopleand we have to recognize that
not everyone is.
Is a disciple.
Yeah.
Not everyone is a PhD.
Yeah.
And I'm not trying to putdiscipleship with PhD.
(45:57):
I don't know which one I'd beputting down by doing that
comparison, but I'm, but what weneed to recognize is it wasn't a
disservice, right.
For someone to not be adisciple.
Right.
But it was a unique and profoundcall like a parent would have.
Like, have you ever thoughtabout like what was Jam James
(46:18):
and John's dad's reaction whenthey drop the fricking nets.
Right.
Leave them.
Yeah.
And go after Jesus?
Yeah.
Like what, what do you think,what do you think their, their
father's reaction to that was?
Like, if we use our, our normalidea of all of
Tana (46:38):
this, like a, like a.
Current kind of, yeah.
You know, like I, I thinkcurrently if something like that
were to happen, the father wouldbe mad.
You, you are irresponsible.
You just, and you, you've, youdropped the family business and
so also sad and hurt and Yeah.
Don (46:54):
You know, instead, what do you think he actually probably
felt.
Tana (46:59):
Like pride.
Don (47:01):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
He was probably like, I'll cleanthe nets myself.
Tana (47:04):
Yeah.
No big deal.
Don (47:05):
Go get'em.
Yeah.
Like don't, don't even let itslow you down.
Yeah.
Like, like I'll send clothes,just go Right.
Like this, this rabbi walked by,saw my boys and saw something in
them that I had always seen inthem.
Mm-hmm.
But they got the short stick.
They never, they were neveraccepted because they were from
Nazareth or wherever.
(47:25):
Right.
Like they never got anywhere.
And this teacher comes by andeveryone's talking about how he
has authority.
Tana (47:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (47:34):
And how he's this great teacher and he sees my boys.
Tana (47:38):
Yeah.
Don (47:38):
And he's like, you come with me.
So I think that the scene isjust really powerful and
important, and I think it's alsopowerful and important to
recognize that the people thatJesus didn't call to
discipleship, who werefishermen, he still showed up
(48:00):
and healed them.
He still went out into thehillsides to teach them.
He still looked at them andloved them.
He still cared about them.
They were still the mostimportant things to them, and I
think that we feel in some waythat we're either disciples or
(48:21):
we're not.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I agree with that, butit's more so like if, like in or
out, and that's not the case.
Mm.
Like I've, I grew up in a churchthat you know, is very much anti
Christmas and Easters like rolltheir eyes like, oh, you only
show up two times a year.
(48:41):
Oh, Uhhuh.
I don't think Jesus got upsetabout that.
I think Jesus looked at peoplethat, I mean, it'd be strange
for them to show up at Christmasand Easter, uh, when Jesus was
around, but, um, show up for hisbirthday party.
Uh, but I think Jesus would lookat them and have compassion and
(49:05):
be like, life is hard.
Life is busy.
It's complicated.
And I'm glad that you're heretoday.
Tana (49:10):
Yeah.
Don (49:10):
And while you're here, I have something to say that
hopefully brings you hope.
Encouragement and reminds you ofthe love of God.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that then there'speople that attend two times a
month and then four times amonth and never miss a Sunday
ever.
And then people who, uh,volunteer at the church or do
(49:31):
extras here and there within thefaith or lead a nonprofit that
is
Tana (49:36):
Yeah,
Don (49:37):
based in faithful behavior and ideas.
Mm-hmm.
And some people are going to bepastors, and I also don't
believe that all pastors aredisciples.
Mm.
And that's okay.
Right?
There's nothing that says
Tana (49:51):
they're not disciples or they're not disciplers?
Don (49:54):
Both.
Tana (49:55):
Okay.
Don (49:55):
You can't be a disciple if you're not a disciple.
Tana (49:57):
Okay.
Don (49:57):
Yeah.
And that's the other piece Ithink a lot of people are trying
to disciple when they themselveshaven't.
Ben.
Yeah.
And it's important to understanddiscipleship doesn't look, can't
look the way it did in Jesus'sdays.
We've lost that rhythm.
Tana (50:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (50:19):
We no longer have someone like I think about.
Cabinetry, I think is such agreat example.
Mm-hmm.
Like the, there's woodworkerswho are just known and renowned
woodworkers mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Who have mentors.
Mm-hmm.
Or there, they mentor youngerpeople.
Mm-hmm.
And they teach them.
And what you do is you see thatperson's work 20 years later
(50:42):
after they're done beingapprenticed.
Mm-hmm.
And typically at this point, thementor has died and that's why
you're starting to see theirwork instead of them just
helping, right.
The master.
Yeah.
And I.
You go, ah, I can see all of theteachings of your, your master.
Tana (50:59):
Yeah.
Don (50:59):
In your work.
Tana (51:00):
Yeah.
Don (51:01):
And we don't have that anymore.
We don't, we do that in certainthings.
I'd say martial arts is one thatwe do it.
Like people follow a sensei or a
Tana (51:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (51:08):
A teacher for a long time and they learn all about them.
Yeah.
But we don't have that very muchin Christianity anymore.
So a lot of people'sdiscipleship is reading,
studying, listening to amultiplicity of voices.
Mm-hmm.
And, but we need more people toconsolidate that.
Tana (51:26):
Yeah.
Don (51:26):
And then pour uniquely into individuals to help them learn,
uh, as opposed to, cause that'svery daunting to have, to learn
across all these things.
So that being said, the greatCommission is this powerful
moment where Jesus is saying, Ihad a unique gift mm-hmm.
(51:49):
given to me.
Which was insight into the text.
Mm-hmm.
And I have trained you, I havediscipled you.
Mm-hmm.
And it's now time.
And today is your graduation.
Mm.
And now your job is to go outand teach everyone these things.
And in the midst of that, findpeople who want to learn
(52:13):
everything I taught.
Yeah.
Then commission them to go andmake more disciples that teaches
everyone that they come incontact with, but find a unique
feud to pour into.
Yeah.
I think that that's just areally powerful and beautiful
thing, and I think in a lot ofways in our attempt to create a
sense of ease of participationin our faith, we have lost some
(52:40):
of the depth and beauty of someof the higher callings in our
faith, which is to discipleshipand discipling, um, because
we've reduced it to a prayer andan attendance.
Yeah.
And I think that's robbed us.
I think that's why ChrisChristianity in the West has
become so there I say, uh,neutered.
(53:04):
Mm, yeah.
Insignificant, yeah.
Powerless.
Except for when it's angry.
Right.
And it's because we no longerare taking discipleship serious.
We're only concerned aboutevangelism.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Tana (53:23):
I just, uh, I think it's really important that we, uh,
understand the differencebetween evangelism and
discipleship.
And I think the world would bebetter off if there was more of
an effort to make disciplesrather than simply converts.
Don (53:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
So what does Jesus say aboutconverts?
Tana (53:43):
You'll cross the sea to find, make a single convert and
turn them into twice the sons ofhell you are?
Don (53:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's one of my favorites.
Yeah.
Go Jesus.
Tana (53:53):
And, and that's honestly, I feel like we're seeing that.
Just no, no discipleship, notruly trying to follow Jesus,
but just converts and then usingthat conversion as a weapon.
Don (54:16):
You nailed it.
Tana (54:17):
So, uh, thank you for joining us today.
If you wanna interact with usmore, in between episodes,
please check us out on all thesocials.
You can go to our website,ajffpodcast.com, and there's
links there to all the socialsand, If you'd like to support
what we're doing, check out, buyme a coffee.com/a JFF and you
(54:39):
can become a member or justleave us a little token of
support.
So thank you and we'll see younext time.
Bye.
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