July 11, 2023 • 54 mins
Why do Christians seem to hate social justice? Why does it feel like they'd dislike Jesus if they met him in real life? In this episode, Don and Tana explore the "warnings" against social justice language in churches, starting with Glenn Beck in 2010 and moving to today. Ultimately, they note how racism, economic issues, and the pursuit of power affect how today's evangelicals interpret churches that, to them, are too "woke."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don (00:00):
What scares the church so badly that feeding your neighbor
that might not have enough food,uh, or giving space for people
to be healthy is scary?
Tana (00:19):
hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
I am one of your co-hosts, TanaSchiewer and I am joined by Don
Schiewer your other co-host.
Hello.
And today we're gonna talk aboutsocial justice and Christianity.
This.
Is a phrase that has becomeproblematic for, in a number of
(00:43):
ways to certain types ofChristians.
And so we wanted to kind ofexplore the history of, uh,
social justice and the fracturebetween people who are
Christians and believe in socialjustice and people who are
Christians, and think it is a,uh, scary phrase to avoid.
(01:05):
So, um, to start us off,actually, Don, can you maybe
give a basic definition of whatwe mean when we say social
justice?
I, I don't,
Don (01:15):
no, I don't think I can.
Um, I, I, you know, I thinkeveryone has a different opinion
because it depends on how youview justice.
Sure.
I think that if we break it downinto its two basic concepts, you
have an idea of justice, what itis that I, or a group of people
view as.
Just outcomes of behavior,interactions, et cetera.
(01:39):
And then you have, which by theway, I think is always evolving,
right?
Mm-hmm.
That we look at laws that wehave today, typically, although
this year we've set a differentprecedent.
Typically more freedoms havebeen given to people, not fewer.
Right.
Right.
And we would call that justice.
Mm-hmm.
The, the social part of it, inall honesty, I think is where
(02:03):
the tenuous relationship mm-hmm.
Comes into play with the church,right?
Mm-hmm.
But social is this idea that,uh, a collaboration is taking
place mm-hmm amongst theresidents and those who, uh,
make up a community that thereis an agreed upon idea, right?
(02:23):
Yeah.
And that's social, which ofcourse, you know, Uh, leads to
discussions around socialism
Tana (02:29):
Right.
Don (02:29):
And other things.
Tana (02:30):
Right, right.
Don (02:30):
So I think that as far as giving a definition of social
justice, it's the justice thatis expected by a community.
I, I think is, is kind of whereit falls, but I don't know that
that's how it's always used.
Tana (02:45):
Yeah, I think I would agree.
I would agree with that.
And I would also agree with theassessment that the word social
probably triggers thoughts ofthe word socialism, which we
know is considered bad by acertain sect of society.
Um, so, so let's talk a littlebit about your, um, sort of
(03:08):
faith journey and the momentwhen, uh, this became a
problematic phrase for somereason.
You know, I, I remember clearlywhen you started to, read more,
not just philosophy and, uh,commentary on the Bible, but you
also just started studyingscripture more carefully and
(03:28):
under understanding the contextand the history in which it was
written.
And, your views started tochange.
And I.
What developed out of that was avery justice minded, accepting,
loving, caring for othersmindset that really marked who
(03:49):
you were as a pastor, right?
And this, in my opinion, wasgoing great at the church we
were at, and lots of people wereall about it and all about
showing people justice andmercy.
And then there was a little bitof a switch one day.
What happened?
Don (04:06):
Glenn Beck.
Tana (04:08):
I mean, that's the short answer,
Don (04:10):
So I, it was interesting hearing you tell my story there.
I, it's, you know, it's, it'sinteresting to me is that in the
midst of my own personal journeyof faith and understanding the
text, it became more and moreclear to me as time passed that.
If I had the ability or theinfluence or the power to bring
(04:36):
about change that benefitedsomebody with less of those
things, mm-hmm.
Then it was my obligation,according to scripture, to do
something
Tana (04:50):
right,
Don (04:52):
and scripture just seemed to handle this as a matter of
fact of life.
Tana (04:57):
Right.
Yeah.
Don (04:58):
That would be, this is this, this is the expectation if
you are a person of faithmm-hmm.
That if you enter a situation inwhich someone is in need of food
or clothing or are in prison,you know, this might ring true
of Matthew 25.
Right.
Or that you, you had a fieldthat you had enough produce in
the field to provide for yourhousehold, uh, and that there
(05:19):
would be some leftover, thatthere's always this, it's not
even an obligation.
It's just a given.
Like the first step of ageometry problem, right, is
always just a given.
You know what you have in frontof you and that the Bible
treated all of these moments asgivens.
You have extra produce.
(05:40):
You make it available to thosewho don't have enough produce,
right?
You have extra food.
You make it available to thosethat don't have enough food.
You have extra clothing orresources to get extra clothing.
You make it available.
This is, and, and this became, Ithink probably the phrasing I
used around was biblicaljustice, right?
(06:00):
Because I didn't see that.
Yeah.
In the world as a whole, right?
Mm-hmm.
I didn't see that as being theexpectations of the world.
Now at that time, I wasn'tnearly as political as I am now.
And so maybe there was a lot ofthose conversations happening
and I just wasn't privy of themand therefore assumed they
weren't happening.
Tana (06:19):
Sure, yeah.
Okay.
Don (06:20):
Um, but.
I realized that there's a, adeep sense of beauty that
existed in scripture that wasconstantly taking a look at what
you had and evaluating whatothers had and trying to make it
right and by make it right, Imean, uh, provide for the needs.
Tana (06:43):
Mm-hmm.
Don (06:44):
And so this is what I would've just called justice.
I would've called it justbiblical living.
I would've just called itfollowing Jesus.
And probably, what is it, 13years ago now, 14 years ago,
Glenn Beck came out and saidthat if you see the term social
justice on your church's websiteor in a sermon, run.
(07:09):
And I had a book on my shelfthat had social, it was called
like the Social JusticeHandbook, and it was put out by
our denomination actually at thetime.
Tana (07:17):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Don (07:18):
And or at least celebrated by the denomination.
Mm-hmm.
Whether or not it was anofficial denomination
Tana (07:23):
Gotcha.
Don (07:23):
Book.
It was a, it was a pastor fromwithin the denomination.
That the denomination
Tana (07:27):
Gotcha.
Don (07:27):
celebrated, et cetera.
And I remember there was someonethat came into the church to fix
a door.
And they weren't part of ourcommunity.
They were, I mean, they werepart of the general community,
but they weren't part of thechurch community.
And they saw this book on myshelf and questioned the senior
pastor about why I had this bookon my shelf that had the term
(07:51):
social justice in it.
And that was the very firstmoment that I had any sense that
what we were doing in feedingpeople or providing food for
individuals who lacked access toadequate food or provided, you
(08:15):
know, opportunities for folkswho didn't have the room to
network or what have you, thatthat was the first time that it
was ever questioned as a whole.
Like, I had people questionlike, are you gonna evangelize
these people and get them toconvert?
That question was often asked,but not the, not the heart of
(08:35):
it, which was that theyshouldn't be fed anything or
they shouldn't be given food oraccess to something.
Just, you know, if you only give'em food but you don't share the
gospel, what good does that dothem?
Which I think is unhealthythinking, obviously, but that
was the extent of thequestioning.
Tana (08:52):
Hmm.
Don (08:53):
This was the first time that the, even the very concept
of doing justice work
Tana (08:59):
mm-hmm
Don (09:00):
was questioned in my experience.
And maybe, maybe it had beenbeing questioned for a long time
and we just had avoided it.
Um, and come through thatunscathed.
But that would probably be it.
Probably about 13 years ago,Glenn Beck came out with that
statement and that really becamea major point that gained some
traction in our church.
Yeah.
I mean, not enough to stop whatwe were doing because there was
(09:21):
so many people already involvedin the justice work we were
doing, but enough to make somenoise.
Tana (09:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, the thing I didn't quiteremember, uh, I was looking back
to, to try to remember whenGlenn Beck said this and, you
know, all this stuff.
The thing I didn't really quiteremember was that there was, uh,
a Christian backlash to himsaying that.
And I guess, you know, partly Ididn't remember because I was
(09:47):
unaware of this happening, youknow, until somebody said to
you, you know, why do you havethat book?
You know?
Um,
Don (09:57):
But the Christian backlash to him were the Christians that
weren't listening to him, right?
Tana (10:01):
Yes.
Don (10:02):
So the, the Christians that were already, um, deeply
embedded in conservative radioright, weren't questioning it.
Right.
It was the people like myself,who were just sideswiped by all
of a sudden we have thispolitical commentary coming out
that in some way liberalideations are taking place in
(10:23):
the church because of thisphrase.
Tana (10:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was like, um, Jim Wallisfrom Sojourners,
Don (10:31):
which I'm pretty certain Jim Wallis does not listen to
Glenn Beck.
Tana (10:34):
Right, right.
And I, and you know, lookingback on this, I have a feeling
some of it was precipitated by,uh, Jeremiah Wright the pastor
that was the pastor of Obama'schurch.
Don (10:47):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (10:47):
And so it was a backlash to Obama, like, well, he can't
possibly be a Christian.
Well, look, nope, he not, heisn't actually, because look at
the.
What's happening in this churchthat's not Christian.
You know, it was very much a notrue Scotsman kind of a thing.
And so it became, um, ratherthan people having a difference
of opinion on what other,
Don (11:07):
I think we should investigate what the, the church
that Trump has attended hiswhole life.
Oh wait, that's probably gonnabe complicated.
Tana (11:18):
Yeah.
Probably.
Um, But, uh, yeah, I think itwas like a, well, how dare
Democrats act religious kind ofa thing, you know?
Sure.
Um, as if the right had themonopoly on Christianity.
Don (11:32):
Yeah.
Do you remember, uh, at the timeof Obama, uh, during that
presidential, uh, cycle when theelection was happening and he
was running and someone from thechurch asked to post, put up a
poster, uh, for the electionthat was a, an unbiased poster,
(11:53):
uh, that they wanted to put up.
Tana (11:54):
Oh, you're talking about our church?
Don (11:56):
Yes.
Tana (11:56):
Okay.
Sorry.
I was stuck on Obama's churchfor some reason,
Don (12:01):
and they, they approached me and said, Hey, we'd like to
put up this poster.
And I looked and it was put outby James Dobson and focus on the
family.
Tana (12:08):
Oh, interesting.
Don (12:09):
And I said, this is not unbiased.
This isn't just a factual.
They're like, but it's right.
And I was like, I mean,technically it's right, right?
And it's right leaning.
But you know, I said to him, Isaid, no, I don't think we
should put up, and I forget whatexactly he said, and I made the
comment, I'd probably be votingfor Obama.
(12:31):
And there was a small explosionthat took place within that
Bible study of all of thesefolks who couldn't even fathom
that there would be a person offaith that would vote for Obama.
And for them, they viewed thisvery, um, biased, uh, poster as
(13:00):
being factual
Tana (13:02):
Sure.
Don (13:03):
As opposed to being, you know, misleading.
Tana (13:06):
Right.
Don (13:07):
And so I think, honestly, I.
I would tie all of these reallytogether in a lot of ways.
Right?
Tana (13:14):
Sure.
Yeah.
Don (13:14):
The social justice thing as you, and kind of pulling back to
what you were saying about kindof a reaction to Obama's
election, and I really feel likehaving a black man in office
Tana (13:27):
mm-hmm
Don (13:29):
was, is evangelicals lost their damn minds.
Tana (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Don (13:36):
Um, and, and I think they would deny that it was because
he was black,
Tana (13:39):
of course.
Don (13:40):
And, but yeah.
So the social justice piece, youknow, Glenn Beck, he introduced
that concept and, and I wouldsay that that concept has just
continued.
Yeah.
And we're, we're still dealingwith it.
It's just changed its language.
Right?
Absolutely.
And so today we use the termwoke.
Right?
Right.
(14:01):
And the church is using thisterm, woke in the same way.
I would argue that it used GlennBeck used social justice.
Right.
So Tana, what is it that youthink is so terrifying to the
church 13 years ago?
A social justice or today with,uh, using the word woke?
(14:22):
What, what, what scares thechurch so badly that feeding
your neighbor that might nothave enough food, uh, or giving
space for people to be healthyis scary?
Tana (14:44):
I don't think a lot of people would admit the more
nefarious motivations there,like racism, um, other types of
bigotry like, uh, queerphobia,um,
Don (14:58):
sure.
Tana (14:59):
You know, things like that.
I think that a lot of that is atthe root of it, and things that
feel like they're outside of theaccepted ways that we've been
doing things kind of a deal.
It's scary cuz it's, it's, uh,unsettling their, you know,
viewpoint of the world.
I think also the entrance of,right wing politics into
(15:25):
religion is what caused a lot ofthis to amplify over the years.
Um, and so, certain politicalbeliefs have gotten wrapped up
in with religious beliefs andpeople can't like, untangle them
now.
Don (15:44):
Sure.
Tana (15:45):
You know, so, um, Yeah.
It's like, well, I as aChristian believe in, helping
the poor, but I'll do it.
I don't want the governmentdoing it.
Don (15:56):
Yeah.
Tana (15:56):
That, you know what I'm saying?
Don (15:58):
I, yeah.
I think there's a lot of that.
I think there's another piecetoo, and I'm gonna ask you a
question to see if maybe we cankind of dig into it together.
Is that, do you remember earlyon when we were, when we had
started doing justice work backin, I mean, I think probably
2002, 2003.
(16:20):
We really kind of, a lot of itstarted, yeah, a lot more of it
started, at least for us.
Tana (16:25):
Mm-hmm.
Don (16:27):
Do you remember what the guardrails were in doing those
things within the church?
Tana (16:38):
The guardrails?
Are you talking about likechurch capital C or the church
we were attending?
Don (16:46):
I, I think they went hand in hand.
But short Church, capital C.
Tana (16:51):
Oh my gosh.
Don (16:53):
What would people warn you if you gave someone$5?
Tana (16:56):
Oh oh, right.
That they're just gonna waste iton drugs or alcohol?
Don (17:01):
Right.
So when we first started doingjustice work, the biggest thing
we came up against was becomingthe we.
We had to be the moral compass.
Tana (17:08):
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (17:10):
Right.
And so we only gave to people,and I think we actually
discussed, we touched on this alittle bit back in our uh,
holiday guide for giving.
Tana (17:18):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:19):
But I think early on, a lot of what people would.
A lot of people's concerns were,well, if you get that person$5,
they're just gonna go spend iton alcohol.
Tana (17:27):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:28):
Do you remember that?
Tana (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:29):
And I think other people would do the thing where, well,
that's great, but if they don'thave salvation, it doesn't
matter.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of theguardrails in the church where
it's okay to feed people, butonly the right people.
Tana (17:45):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:45):
It's okay to take care of the needs of people, but only if
you ensured they were gonna usethose things.
In the proper way.
Right?
It's okay to, uh, do work tobring about awareness of social
problems or abject poverty, etcetera, as long as X, Y, and Z.
So there was always a anasterisk.
(18:08):
Yeah.
Everything we did had anasterisk and it was basically,
We had to pass, and I don'tthink anyone would've said this
at the time, right?
In early two thousands, but wehad to pass it through the
collective wisdom of affluentwhite suburbanites
Tana (18:24):
Yes.
Don (18:25):
as to whether or not a person was deserving
Tana (18:29):
Yes.
Don (18:31):
of the help that we were offering.
This to me is, is kind of thekey to why everyone really.
Has become offended by the ideaof social justice.
Hmm.
Because I would argue that what,what, what has transpired is
over the years people said no,even if someone uses that money,
(18:57):
To get drunk or uses that food,turns around and sells it.
Or a bicycle.
That was a big one, right?
Like they're just gonna sell thebike.
And I was like, great.
We created an economic system.
Tana (19:07):
Right, right.
Don (19:07):
Which really would make everyone mad.
I'm like, so, so what?
So they sold the bike and Yeah.
So someone else got a bike for aprice that they agreed to.
They received money that theydidn't have in their pocket
before.
And uh, wow.
Awesome.
Tana (19:21):
Yeah.
Don (19:21):
We created a business.
Right.
Like trickle down economics.
No.
Right.
I'm just joking about that.
But it's, it's, but it was, ourmindset was, you know, even
when, do you remember what wewould say if someone said, what
if they're gonna spend it onalcohol?
Tana (19:37):
No,
Don (19:38):
I would say So you don't binge watch Netflix?
Tana (19:42):
Oh, yes.
Yes.
I do remember that.
Don (19:43):
Like we all medicate, like every person medicates.
Yeah.
And if you are living on thestreets under a bridge, you
wanna buy a beer to get throughthe night?
Mm-hmm.
Tana (19:54):
How many people just in middle class buy beer to get
through the night?
Don (19:57):
I'm literally drinking a beer right now.
Tana (19:59):
Right.
Don (20:00):
While doing this, while recording this podcast.
Tana (20:02):
Right.
Don (20:03):
But we all medicate.
Tana (20:04):
Yeah.
Don (20:05):
Every person medicates.
And not just with the properpharmaceuticals.
Tana (20:10):
Right.
Don (20:10):
And because of that, we, we don't get the right, we don't
have the right to say, I get tomedicate and I get to medicate
the way I feel is best for me.
But you, yeah.
I don't trust your decisionmaking.
I don't trust your behavior.
Yeah.
I think when social justicestarted coming in or a, a
younger generation, millennials,uh, late Gen Xers
Tana (20:33):
mm-hmm.
Don (20:34):
Younger Gen Xers, however, I don't even know how you say
that term, but I.
Uh, gen Xers that were closer tothe millennial age group.
Tana (20:40):
Right, right.
Don (20:40):
Yeah.
That a lot more people startedsaying, no, they just deserve to
have food.
Right.
No, they just deserve to haveshelter.
No, they just deserve, like theyhave, like they're a human
being.
Tana (20:54):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Don (20:54):
And I even think around the time of Glen Beck, and I might
be wrong completely on mytimeline, there was a big deal
going on in Florida where theywere going to start drug
testing.
Tana (21:04):
Oh yes.
For, um, food benefits and Yes.
Um, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Don (21:08):
And I remember our community, our faith community
as a church, that there was alot of people that were very
supportive of that.
Yeah.
And I just said, what happens ifa parent is an addict and they
have a child?
Tana (21:21):
Mm-hmm.
Don (21:21):
Do we withhold the food from the child?
Tana (21:23):
Right.
Don (21:24):
And they're like, well, they shouldn't have had a kid.
Okay.
Tana (21:26):
Wow.
Don (21:27):
Right.
But, but here's the thing again.
Yeah.
But you are against abortionrights.
So you forced them to have akid.
Right.
And uh, and even whether youthink that they shouldn't have
or not, doesn't matter nowbecause you forced them to have
the child.
Right.
And now you're saying, but nowthat that child's born, I
demanded the child be born.
(21:47):
But now that the child's bornYeah.
It's their, it's on them and theparents shouldn't have had the
child.
And pointing out some of thesethings is just not something the
church had ever questionedbefore.
Tana (21:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And because of that, as, asthings became more and more
politicized, and as youmentioned, you know, the, the
church became more embedded inthe right wing, uh, you know,
politics.
Mm-hmm.
Don (22:13):
It became more and more of pick yourself up by the
bootstrap.
Mm-hmm.
Which became, if you remember,early on, no one was making that
argument to us as we were doingthings to provide food, et
cetera, but pretty quickly aftera period of time, it was like,
shouldn't people just like fixthemselves if people would just
fix themselves.
Tana (22:32):
Right.
Don (22:32):
You know, and I would say, you know, that's like saying,
Jesus, why don't you, uh, takeyourself down off the cross and,
uh, survive this.
Right.
Like, You know, uh, physicianheal thyself, right?
All biblical phrases that wewould hold dear and be like,
look at Jesus.
He didn't do these things right?
Yeah.
But yet we would imply thatothers had to do these things.
Tana (22:55):
I, I think what's what's interesting about a lot of these
things is, is, um, first of all,To go back to the Glen Beck
thing, he said, look for thephrases, social justice or
economic justice.
He mentioned both of thosephrases.
Don (23:09):
He did.
Yeah.
Tana (23:10):
Which I think is extremely interesting because what I think
all this that you're describing,um, was a lot more economic
arguments coming into helpingpeople than we had seen before.
So like that Florida drugtesting thing.
Don (23:25):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (23:27):
I remember seeing lots of people, like on social media or
people just in conversationsaying, well, it's just not the
best use of our resources togive, um, this stuff assistance
to somebody on drugs.
And so, you know, you wanna makesure it's getting, it's getting
to everybody, you know?
Don (23:46):
Sure.
Tana (23:46):
And so it was almost like there were this benevolent
argument and then when they didthe study and found out that it
actually cost more to drug testpeople, these
Don (23:55):
It was only like 1%.
Tana (23:56):
Yeah.
Cause it was such a tiny, Idon't even think it was one, it
was such like a tiny percentageof people who actually tested
positive for drugs.
Um, it cost them way more to dothis program than to just feed
everybody.
Don (24:06):
Correct.
Tana (24:07):
And I, when that came out, and I mentioned that to some of
those same people, they werelike, they should still do it.
Because it's not right.
And I'm like, but your, yourwhole argument to me before was
it was an economic thing.
Don (24:18):
Great.
Yes.
So that's perfect.
Good segue.
Tana (24:21):
Thanks.
Don (24:21):
So then, what was it?
Tana (24:24):
They're not deserving.
That was like, I think it's thatthey're not deserving and being
poor started to become a moralfailing.
Don (24:34):
Yeah.
I don't need anything startedbut be but got maybe more
Tana (24:37):
fair
Don (24:38):
mainstream.
Had more mainstream, uh,acceptance to that idea.
Tana (24:43):
Yeah.
That it was, it was a moralfailing rather than a systemic
failing.
And I honestly think that a lotof the reason why a lot of
people will clinging to thatidea is because it's more
palatable, because it relievesthem of responsibility of like,
oh, I participate in the system,or maybe I even perpetuate this
system.
It also allows em
Don (25:03):
to say, that's their concern.
Not, not that they're racist,just just like homophobic or
what have you.
Tana (25:07):
Wash their hands of it.
Don (25:08):
Yeah.
Right.
So how then would you say thisrelates to woke?
Tana (25:15):
Well, I think it's like what you said earlier, it's just
a different, it's, it's thephrase,
Don (25:20):
but it's not about economics anymore.
Tana (25:23):
Oh yeah.
Now it's the culture wars
Don (25:25):
and Right.
It's about race.
Yeah.
Gender and a sexuality.
Tana (25:30):
But, but I kind of, Think it's still about economics.
I think they're just hiding itbetter.
I, I mean, everything is aboutthe children supposedly, and I,
I just think that's a cover.
Um, like Glen Beck, when I waslooking up the original thing
from Glen Beck from like 2010, Isaw that he had a more recent
(25:51):
thing in 2022 about how wokeinfiltrated the church.
And I was like, oh, this wasprobably just a continuation,
continu Continu continuation ofwhat he did, what he said
before, and he had, he had aguest on who was a, a pastor, A
rev, a reverend from Zambianamed Voddie Baucham.
Don (26:06):
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Wait, wait.
Timeout.
Yeah.
Tana (26:08):
What.
Don (26:09):
Um, I glanced over at your notes and just in the middle of
the paper there's one sentence.
Tana (26:14):
I'm not reading it.
I was mad.
Don (26:16):
I will, I will.
Tana (26:17):
I was, I was yelling.
Don (26:17):
So I want, I want you all to know the righteous
indignation of Tana becauseright in the middle of the page,
as I look over it just says heis a dick.
Um, I actually think that sumsit up quite nicely, but go ahead
on with your more, uh,
Tana (26:33):
I yelled a lot at.
YouTube yesterday.
Um, so this, uh, Voddie Bauchamwas saying that we are
experiencing judgment right now,you know,
Don (26:45):
as Christians or as
Tana (26:46):
Yeah.
For from God.
Don (26:48):
Um, oh, okay.
So the world
Tana (26:49):
Yes, the world is
Don (26:50):
not just Christians.
Okay.
Tana (26:51):
Yeah.
Um, and then, Uh, they talkedabout how the Obergefell
decision that allowed same sexmarriage, um, they said, oh, you
know, back then we were, we weretold we were being too alarmist
about the slippery slope, butthe slippery slope has happened
and there's, and they were justmaking stuff up and saying like,
(27:14):
uh, well, liberals are okay withpedophilia.
And there's just so, like, theywere acting as if like, um,
every liberal was just like,"cool, yeah.
Abuse kids, no problem." Andalso that every single LGBTQ+
individual was a pedophile, andit was just this awful, and I
(27:37):
think that's what we see goingon with all these conversations
is like, like all the, the transstuff, all the drag queen stuff,
all this stuff is like, but whatabout the children?
But if they actually cared aboutchildren, then they would do
something about gun control andthey would do something about a
lot of other things.
(27:57):
And so to me it's, again, it'sanother like red herring, like
we are concerned about children,but what it actually is, is we
don't like this.
It makes us uncomfortable.
It, it's not in our norm.
Don (28:12):
Well, and I think some of this is a loss of power.
Tana (28:14):
Absolutely.
Don (28:15):
Because the, the church for so long, Had all the power in
the US right?
And the church had so muchinfluence, and as the church
started losing more and moreinfluence, it was necessary to
create the, uh, it wasn't the,uh, the religious right.
What was it at the time?
Um, Oh my gosh.
(28:38):
When they, they introduced theconcept of abortion being a
religious thing.
It was the moral majority.
Tana (28:43):
Oh, the moral majority, yes.
Don (28:44):
Right.
And so this moral majoritybecomes a thing because the
church had begun to lose itsgrip of power.
Yeah.
And I think what happens, so canyou think of an instance?
I can think of one for myself.
Speeding.
Tana (28:58):
Okay.
Don (28:58):
For the most part, I don't Speed.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
But if we're traveling back toPennsylvania to visit your
family, and it's a four 50 miletrip.
Tana (29:06):
Mm-hmm.
Don (29:07):
I speed.
Tana (29:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (29:09):
But I almost have a view of myself.
Not almost.
I do, I have a view of myselfthat it's okay that I speed that
Don Schiewer speeds.
Yeah, because I, I payattention.
You're in control.
I understand.
I, I am better than the averagedriver, and I am capable of
(29:30):
controlling the car better thanthe average person.
And since I cycle, I bicycle somany places.
I'm very aware of pedestriansand so I.
I, I am the loophole.
Right, right.
Tana (29:45):
You're the exception.
Don (29:46):
So tell me about you being an exception because I, I'm
certain you, you view yourselfas an exception someplace.
Tana (29:53):
Never.
I'm, I'm the most humble personyou'll ever meet.
Don (30:01):
That might be an exception right there.
Tana (30:04):
Uh, I'm sure I do.
Uh, I can't think of one off thetop of my head.
Don (30:08):
So I think it's something that we all do, right?
It's that we are more likely totrust ourself than someone else.
I, I mean, that seems like avery, very simple idea.
Tana (30:17):
Yeah.
Don (30:17):
Right.
Like that if it came down tosomeone, it's like, let me do it
because I know I'll do it.
Right.
Yeah.
Type thing.
Right?
Tana (30:23):
Yeah.
Don (30:23):
And I think this is what the church went through and is
going through.
Tana (30:27):
Mm-hmm.
Don (30:28):
Like we get to, we have the corner on the market for
morality, and we know betterthan the rest of the world.
About morality.
Yeah.
And now all of a sudden the restof the world is saying, hey,
these are, these are spaces inwhich we need to do better with
(30:51):
morality.
Tana (30:52):
Mm-hmm.
Don (30:52):
And the church
Tana (30:54):
mm-hmm.
Don (30:54):
Has been exposed as not being the leader of morality.
Yeah.
Right.
Whether it is all the scandalsthat happen constantly of sexual
coverups, of indiscretions inthe churches, all these things
that are just perpetuated,constantly by the church.
We see it in the news, we see iteverywhere all the time.
(31:15):
And the church has lost itsstance.
And I would argue it neverdeserved probably to have the
stance.
Tana (31:21):
Yeah.
Don (31:21):
Maybe, right?
Tana (31:22):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:22):
Maybe there was a time, I don't know.
Tana (31:24):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:24):
But that- now the church is no longer this beacon of
righteousness.
Tana (31:31):
Right?
Don (31:33):
And as it scrambles to reclaim it.
Tana (31:39):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:40):
It is reclaiming it by villainizing all the other
things that were dis, that theyhad not agreed to.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Tana (31:50):
Yeah.
Don (31:51):
And so whether it's.
CRT.
Right.
Critical race theory, like,which is not being taught in
schools.
Right.
And, uh,
Tana (32:00):
it's a law theory.
Don (32:02):
And even if some le some version of that is being taught
in schools, it's still not beingtaught in the way that is being,
uh, discussed or argued that itis being, that it's happening,
uh, whether it's lgbtq things,right.
Uh, it's gender equality, it'sgender acknowledgement, right?
(32:26):
These things in general are now,the church is basically having
the spotlight on them of howthey have failed to actually be
the beacon of light in theworld, and the church has,
instead of accepting the rebukeof society, has doubled down.
Tana (32:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's hard for meto remember, uh, being in that
place where you think onlyChristians can be moral.
I don't know that I ever fullybelieved that, like,
Don (33:07):
but it was definitely all around us.
But it was, it was especially inthe nineties, eighties,
nineties.
Tana (33:11):
Yeah.
And because of how people spokeabout it around me, um, I'm sure
there was a time that like I metan atheist and was surprised
that they were nice and kind,you know?
Don (33:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (33:22):
Um, but I do, one thing I do remember clearly is, uh,
working in an office where theone person was an atheist and
was like the super nicest personever and, um, very kind and
generous and uh, great allaround.
And I remember somebody at ourchurch saying something like,
(33:44):
"Well, he is going to hell." Iremember we were talking about
like kindness and everything,and I mentioned him and they're
like,"well, is he Christian?"I'm like, no.
And they're like,"well, he isgoing to hell." And I'm like,
how, how?
That it, how, you know?
And that was, that was like a, alittle break for me too.
I mean in the, you know, of, oflike just declaring that he's
(34:05):
going to hell j just because ofthat.
Don (34:07):
It was the culmination of that thinking that I would argue
led to Rob Bell's, you know,book that kind of put him on the
map, love wins, right?
Tana (34:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (34:15):
Is that, that argument that, uh, Gandhi, a lot of
Christians would say, Gandhi isburning in hell.
Right?
And how could that possibly be,right?
Tana (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
Don (34:23):
And I, I think so.
I.
A lot of younger people.
Again, this is where I go to theyounger Gen X and I, I mean just
Gen X in general I think becomeskind of that shifting, that
crossroads, um, of thinking thatstarts to be more open to the
idea that maybe there isgoodness out there in the world
that is not draped in, uh, thecross, right.
Or the blood of Jesus.
(34:44):
Right.
And.
And it's interesting to mebecause when we look at these
things, we see the exceptionshappening all over in the
church.
Tana (34:54):
Mm-hmm.
Don (34:54):
Right?
So like whoever the guy is thatMargie Taylor Green is dating
now who did, uh, dressed up likea woman several different times.
Tana (35:03):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:04):
Live on television.
Mm-hmm.
Well, he's the exception, right?
Or, uh, what is it?
Is it the Log Cabin Republicans?
Tana (35:12):
Maybe
Don (35:12):
that are gay.
Tana (35:13):
Yes.
Don (35:14):
Um, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the log Cabin Republicans whoare gay, but they're the
exception.
Right.
Uh, or that you have, uh,different Republican candidate
or candidates or, uh,politicians or just, you know,
people that identify within theRepublican party who are African
American or people of color.
Tana (35:31):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:31):
And well, they're the exception.
Tana (35:34):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:35):
And so we do all these things where we imagine that we
can do it.
Right.
But it's because we areexceptional.
Tana (35:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, and I wonder howthat, it's weird to say that
that translates to when like,you know, pastors are found to
be guilty of, uh, child abuse orsexual abuse or both.
Um, like, uh,
Don (36:05):
well then we just blame the devil.
Tana (36:06):
Well, I.
But there's this weird circlingof the wagons, like, like Matt
Walsh was like supported JoshDugger.
But then like makes accusationsagainst trans people without any
evidence whatsoever that thereare pedophiles, you know?
Don (36:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (36:23):
Um, and like that dude was actually a pedophile.
Like, you know, like it was likefor real.
Um, and there's all these times.
I mean, there's been so manydocumentaries lately, right?
About like, uh, the Duggars and,um, the people behind, uh,
Hillsong and there's justconstantly, uh, pastors being
(36:44):
exposed.
And then once somebody digs intoit, like, oh yeah, this pastor
has been sexually abusing peoplefor years.
And the leadership found, like,found out about it multiple
occasions and covered it up and,and
Don (36:57):
that's because they would argue the greater
good.
Tana (37:00):
But that's so
Don (37:01):
I'm not saying it's right.
I'm saying that's right.
That's the mindset, right?
Is that this church, look at allthe good this church has done.
Look at all the people who havecome to faith because of this
church.
Are we really going to throw allof that away because this person
messed up?
Tana (37:17):
But, but the thing that drives, like I.
With that kind of mentality isthen that they will go and
preach about against it.
Don (37:28):
Of course.
Tana (37:28):
With no sense of, you know, and
Don (37:31):
a hundred percent, yeah.
Tana (37:32):
So it's like, how can you allow it to happen and then tell
other people that, you know,their, their life is sinful
because they had sex before theygot married or you know,
whatever.
Don (37:43):
But again, I think this comes right back to the
exceptionalism, right?
Yeah.
Is that we can handle it.
Right.
We will.
Address it privately.
We will take care of itprivately.
We will, right?
We will handle it in house andit will be fine, right?
Because we are uniquely equippedand I think a lot of times they
(38:04):
would say by God to sure handlesuch a situation, or this is
just God.
Testing us, or this is the devilattacking us and it's so
therefore it can't be true.
And it just, we, the church hasallowed itself to be able to
convince itself
Tana (38:21):
mm-hmm.
Don (38:22):
That any accusation, any, uh, pointing out of wrongdoing
Tana (38:28):
mm-hmm.
Don (38:28):
Is because they are doing so much good.
Tana (38:33):
Yes, absolutely.
And then I think the other sideof that, Um, and this kind of
goes towards the social justicepiece, is, uh, accusations and
trying to hold peopleaccountable and stuff like that
are also seen as divisive.
And so the idea is that you'rejust supposed to let the people
(38:54):
in power do what they please.
And if you try to stand up foran oppressed person in any way,
you are the troublemaker.
Don (39:03):
Yes.
Tana (39:03):
You're the person in the wrong.
And I, I mean, it really doescome back to, I think, the
exceptionalism, but alsoauthoritarianism.
Like, like it's this.
Don (39:13):
I think you can only be authoritarian if you think
you're exceptional.
Tana (39:16):
That's, uh, fair.
Um, and, but I, but there's,yeah, there's other, the, but
the people are like, well,that's, that's the pastor,
that's the person in power.
That's the person who iswonderful.
And they can do no wrong.
And it's just, yeah.
So I think this, backlash, notbacklash, that's not the right
word.
All of these attacks ondifferent oppressed populations
(39:38):
now and this increased like waragainst woke and all that stuff
is a, yeah.
They see their power slippingaway and they need to keep it.
Don (39:49):
And when you're exception- when you view yourself as
exceptional, You can convinceyourself that this is a David
Bathsheba moment.
Tana (39:58):
Interesting
Don (39:58):
that, uh, I'm exceptional.
Like David was exceptional, andyes, David did something
horrendous.
But look at what David becameand imagine if we would've just
put David to death.
Right, and so I think thatthere's a mindset whether they
they go there or not.
(40:20):
Specific to that, right, is thatexceptionalism is it comes out
right like that.
What would've happened if wewould've put David to death
instead of letting him carry onas king and lead Israel?
My argument would be the Biblewould just be a little bit
different.
Tana (40:36):
Right.
Don (40:36):
Right.
Like, I don't, I don't know thatit brings the whole thing down,
but because we can't imagine anyother way, and we believe that
God ordained every single stepof history.
Tana (40:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (40:47):
Then David had to do that.
Tana (40:50):
Right.
Don (40:50):
And then it becomes this mindset of, well, we're, we're
just having our David Bathshebamoment.
Right.
Tana (40:56):
But you know, people, that's a dis that's a
descriptive story.
It's not prescriptive.
Don (41:01):
Well, again, but, but this is what I say is actually a flaw
in Christendom.
Tana (41:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (41:07):
And I would say probably not as much in progressive
Christianity, but
Tana (41:13):
still to a degree
Don (41:14):
still, still active, is reading these stories of
miraculous things, uhhuh theseexceptional stories in the Bible
and making them ordinary, right?
Like when I hear someone say,You know, I'm having a Daniel in
the Lions Day- Den moment, andI'm like, you had a bad day at
work.
Like, like you had a bad day atwork.
(41:35):
You are not Daniel in thelion's.
Tana (41:37):
You don't know.
Maybe they were actuallycornered by lions on the way
home.
Don (41:40):
Even so you're still not, the government hasn't publicly
ex attempted to execute you,right?
Yeah.
Right.
Like so.
No.
Yeah.
You still aren't.
Right.
Even if you run into a pack oflions, this is not your Daniel
moment.
Tana (41:53):
Yeah.
I think that that's reallyinteresting cuz that I think
that the, uh, that speaks to thewhole like Satan's crouching at
every door kind of thing.
Don (42:01):
Yeah.
Like Satan even knows myfricking name, right?
Tana (42:03):
Like, Oh, I ordered rye bread and they gave me sourdough
Satan.
Like, it's just, there is this,like this weird thing where it's
like, yeah, these like tinymoments are like, right, brought
to be evil If,
Don (42:20):
if satan doesn't have the Omnis.
By the way, I don't even knowthat God has the Omnis.
I don't omnis, I don't know whatI feel about that.
But if I would say most ofChristendom does not believe
that the Satan has any Omni.
Tana (42:31):
Mm-hmm.
Don (42:32):
So not omnipresent.
Not omniscient.
Tana (42:35):
Mm-hmm.
Don (42:36):
So therefore doesn't know everything and isn't present
everywhere at the same time.
But yet he's waiting for Donright outside my door.
Tana (42:44):
Right.
Don (42:44):
Come on.
Yeah.
Tana (42:45):
Right.
Well, probably.
Don (42:47):
I mean, so it's, it's this absurdity, but we're, it's so
part of our
Tana (42:51):
Yeah.
Don (42:52):
story it's a part of how we're, we're raised and we're
taught to think in, in thechurch, particularly evangelical
Protestant churches, is thisidea that the Satan is just
waiting to get hold of you.
Tana (43:05):
Yeah.
And it's, that's another, that'sthe spiritual aspect of the
tools of fear that people areusing.
Don (43:14):
Yep.
And you know, I've heard, andyou've probably have heard this
too, you know, sheep in, uh, awolf in sheep's clothing.
Tana (43:21):
Yes.
Don (43:21):
Right.
And so a lot of times goodthings that the world is doing
Tana (43:25):
mm-hmm.
Don (43:26):
Because the church hasn't come up with it.
Tana (43:28):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:29):
The church will be like, just, no, it's probably a wolf
in sheep's clothing.
Tana (43:32):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:32):
Right.
It looks good, but it's probablygoing to be terrible.
Tana (43:35):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:36):
And, but that's what we've done in order to, and this is
the irony to me to, because webecome convinced, that's how we
preserve the faith, that ifwe're not smart, the wolves are
gonna infiltrate.
The irony is, they have.
Tana (43:57):
Mm-hmm.
We just disagree on who thewolves are.
Don (44:00):
The wolves have penetrated or infiltrated.
And it's because the wolves walkin, in wolf's closing, but are
like warning about the rest ofthe wolves that are coming.
Just so you know, all thesewolves are gonna be coming and
the wolf then wanders aroundamong the sheep eating one or
two.
Tana (44:16):
But I'm the exceptional wolf!
Don (44:17):
And and only, and honestly there's a hundred sheep and I
only eat one or two.
One or two.
But those sheep or those wolvesout there on the perimeter,
they're going to eat all of you.
And so yes, I might, I might eatone or two every now and then.
Yeah.
But aren't you grateful that youhave me here to tell you about?
And I think Donald Trump is thatexact thing, right?
(44:37):
Oh yeah.
Is that he, is that wolf insheep's clothing and I don't
even think he's bothered to wearsheep's clothing.
No.
And he's just like, I'm gonnastand in the midst of you.
I'm going to slowly devour you.
Tana (44:47):
Mm-hmm.
Don (44:49):
And while I'm doing it, I'm gonna make you thank me that I'm
keeping the rest of the wolvesat bay.
And you go"yeah.
I wish he didn't say some of thethings he said.
And yeah, he's kind of gross upwhen he are towards women, but.
You know, he does a really goodjob at pointing out all the
dangers of the other wolves."
Tana (45:06):
Yeah.
And I think the more extremist,um, elements of that line of
thinking, I.
Are so concerning because youknow, I just saw a thing the
other day where people wereinterviewing Trump supporters
and the one guy was going on andon about how much he loved God
and Trump.
And then, you know, the guy wasasking a bunch of questions
about the indictments and allthis stuff, and then said, is
(45:29):
there anything Trump could do tolose your vote?
And the guy was like, no, Idon't think so.
And he was like, what if he wason the steps of the White House
and murdered someone and likeright in front of everybody?
And he was like,"No, I'd stillvote for him."
Don (45:43):
Yeah.
I saw that interview and thenthat ended the interview.
Yeah.
And the guy just walks away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, but this is the thing,right?
Is that we would rather, what isit, you know, uh, the, the
enemy, you know, versus theenemy you don't know.
Tana (45:58):
Yeah.
Don (45:59):
And, and we've, we've twisted that, right?
And we've made it, um, thatit's, it's better.
Tana (46:06):
Right.
Don (46:06):
To have someone like that in our midst Right.
Than it is to have someone onthe outside like that and we can
even convince ourselves thenthat God sent us that person.
Tana (46:17):
Yeah.
Don (46:17):
Right.
So we're, we're almost out oftime.
Hmm.
We're getting close.
Okay.
So the one thing I would, Idon't want us to do.
What should it be?
Tana (46:29):
What should what be?
Don (46:31):
Instead of being afraid of social justice
Tana (46:34):
mm-hmm.
Don (46:34):
And afraid of woke.
Tana (46:36):
Mm-hmm.
Don (46:38):
What, what should the faithful be about?
Tana (46:43):
You know, um,
Don (46:48):
I, and what's a biblical understanding of that?
Tana (46:51):
I actually think that would be an excellent thing to
explore in multiple podcastepisodes, which we have in a
little bit in past episodes.
But, um, I wish more peoplewould actually study the Bible
instead of listening tobombastic preachers.
Um, cuz there have been lots ofpreachers who have, uh, kind of
(47:15):
changed their ways to protecttheir jobs.
And lots of preachers who havelost their jobs because they
weren't trumpy enough for theircongregation.
I don't think, I think there's alot of pastors who actually
don't know scripture very well,and they wanna keep their power
and so they're preaching fearfulthings and, um, hateful things.
(47:36):
And, um, I think I wish peoplewould do a little bit more
investigating.
You know, a little more Biblestudy and start to actually see
like you actually read who Jesuswas and it's so in incongruent
with the face we see ofevangelicalism today, like the,
(47:59):
the, the thing we see the moston the news and, you know,
things like that.
Don (48:07):
Yeah, I, I would, I would say, obviously I agree with you.
I think the church needs tostudy the Hebrew Bible more.
Tana (48:18):
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Don (48:20):
Uh, give Paul a break.
He's exhausted, gosh.
From you just flipping throughhis pages constantly.
Tana (48:26):
Yes.
Give Paul a break.
Leave him alone.
Don (48:28):
Uh, let's turn to some gospels and let's turn to some
of Torah.
Right?
Yeah.
The thing that I often point outin, in these conversations is
that, When the Bible calls us todo justice
Tana (48:47):
mm-hmm.
Don (48:49):
It calls us to do it without any bias.
Tana (48:55):
Right, right.
Don (48:55):
Leave the corners of your field.
Right.
For who?
Tana (48:58):
Anyone.
Don (48:59):
Anyone.
Yeah.
Whoever passes by and needs somefood.
Oh, but what if, what if theyactually are?
Are going to turn around andsell that food and uh, and use
it for something nefarious,well, that's on them.
So you leave the, leave thecorners of your field for the
poor and the sojourner, doesn'tmatter who they are, don't even
(49:21):
matter if they're an enemy tothe people of Israel.
You leave the corners of yourfield.
You see someone who is hungry,you don't say, how'd you end up
hungry?
And then I'll determine whetheror not you deserve food, or let
me make sure you live in my zipcode, or let me make sure you
haven't gotten food from someoneelse.
(49:41):
It doesn't have that.
It's just you feed them.
Yeah.
Right.
And even when we read passageslike in, uh, Leviticus 19, where
it talks about loving yourneighbor as yourself.
It talks about leaving thecorners of the field there, but
it also talks about ensuringthat the people who lack power,
(50:04):
that their voice is still heard.
Tana (50:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (50:07):
And make sure that someone who is affluent gets a fair
trial too.
Tana (50:12):
Right.
Don (50:13):
Right.
That it, it, the Bible does anamazing job.
At removing bias from thedecision making that comes into
play for many of our modernsociety.
And I'm, I'm not even sayingjust conservative Christianity.
I think we all have a bias whenit comes to helping someone.
Tana (50:33):
Yeah.
Don (50:34):
And we determine their worthiness.
Yeah.
And the Bible is like, if youhave extra food and someone
doesn't have enough, If you'dconsider yourself a participant
amongst the faithful, you giveyour food.
Yeah.
And listen, none of us do thatperfectly.
Tana (50:55):
Sure.
Don (50:56):
Um, you know, the Bible actually implies that if you
have a spare coat and yourneighbor doesn't have a coat
that it implies, I believe it'sin Malachi, or Micah.
One of the M profits that itimplies that you're stealing
from them.
Tana (51:13):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:14):
If you don't offer them your spare coat.
Tana (51:16):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:18):
That's some powerful stuff.
Tana (51:19):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:20):
And that's some, that's some justice effort that we are
called to.
And instead what we have done istried to determine who is worthy
of our extra coat, who is worthyof the, the, the, the extra food
in our cabinets or the extramoney that we have, the
(51:44):
affluence, the, the power, whois worthy of those things.
And we always assume that weare, we're the best decision
makers.
Tana (51:53):
Yeah.
Don (51:55):
And we don't take into account people's circumstances,
circumstances or situations.
And we do the same, not just ineconomic situations.
Tana (52:02):
Mm-hmm.
Don (52:03):
But we do the same in relational situations.
Tana (52:05):
Mm-hmm.
Don (52:06):
Judging who is deserving to experience love.
Yeah.
Determining who is deserving ofexperiencing companionship and
grace and who is, yeah.
It just goes on and on and it'snot biblical.
Tana (52:21):
Yeah.
Don (52:22):
And if you're a listener and you think.
That you can make a case againstwhat we said today.
I'd love to have you on.
Yeah, I'd love to.
I'd love to discuss it with you.
Tana (52:33):
Yeah.
I think the, my last piece thatI think people should do is look
at the world through a lens of,you know, biblical
understanding.
Um, a, a, a faith lens ratherthan a political lens.
I think too many people areputting their, putting their
(52:55):
political lens on to look attheir religion rather than the
other way around.
And I know I've been guilty ofthat at times.
I get too, too wrapped up in,um, maybe a liberal source of
news and, you know, I get firedup and all that stuff.
But my political affiliationchanged after I started reading
(53:17):
the Bible more.
So my view of what we should doand my, my political affiliation
and, and, and any other, youknow, anything that is
considered quote unquotepolitical, which feels like
everything these days, my viewof that is filtered through
faith, through the bible,through, you know, and I would
just encourage more people to dothat because I think sometimes
(53:41):
it feels like you're goingagainst these beliefs.
These, you know, that are in youbecause of how you were raised
and your political stance and,and who you listen to and
everything, and, and that'sbecoming the louder voice than
faith, God.
Don (53:59):
Agreed.
Tana (54:00):
Yeah.
So final thoughts.
All right.
Well, Thank you all for joiningus today.
Uh, if you're interested intalking more about this, like
Don said, reach out.
We would love to chat withpeople.
I think this is reallyimportant, so would love to hear
from you.
Would also love to hear from youif you have any suggested topics
you'd like to hear us talkabout.
(54:21):
So, uh, yeah.
So you can reach us on all thesocials for that, or you can
email us atinfo@ajffpodcast.com.
You can find more about thepodcast at ajffpodcast.com.
You can support us atbuymeacoffee.com/ajff and I
think that's about it.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks.
Don (54:42):
Go be woke.
Bye.
What scares the church so badly that feeding your neighbor
that might not have enough food,uh, or giving space for people
to be healthy is scary?
Tana (00:19):
hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
I am one of your co-hosts, TanaSchiewer and I am joined by Don
Schiewer your other co-host.
Hello.
And today we're gonna talk aboutsocial justice and Christianity.
This.
Is a phrase that has becomeproblematic for, in a number of
(00:43):
ways to certain types ofChristians.
And so we wanted to kind ofexplore the history of, uh,
social justice and the fracturebetween people who are
Christians and believe in socialjustice and people who are
Christians, and think it is a,uh, scary phrase to avoid.
(01:05):
So, um, to start us off,actually, Don, can you maybe
give a basic definition of whatwe mean when we say social
justice?
I, I don't,
Don (01:15):
no, I don't think I can.
Um, I, I, you know, I thinkeveryone has a different opinion
because it depends on how youview justice.
Sure.
I think that if we break it downinto its two basic concepts, you
have an idea of justice, what itis that I, or a group of people
view as.
Just outcomes of behavior,interactions, et cetera.
(01:39):
And then you have, which by theway, I think is always evolving,
right?
Mm-hmm.
That we look at laws that wehave today, typically, although
this year we've set a differentprecedent.
Typically more freedoms havebeen given to people, not fewer.
Right.
Right.
And we would call that justice.
Mm-hmm.
The, the social part of it, inall honesty, I think is where
(02:03):
the tenuous relationship mm-hmm.
Comes into play with the church,right?
Mm-hmm.
But social is this idea that,uh, a collaboration is taking
place mm-hmm amongst theresidents and those who, uh,
make up a community that thereis an agreed upon idea, right?
(02:23):
Yeah.
And that's social, which ofcourse, you know, Uh, leads to
discussions around socialism
Tana (02:29):
Right.
Don (02:29):
And other things.
Tana (02:30):
Right, right.
Don (02:30):
So I think that as far as giving a definition of social
justice, it's the justice thatis expected by a community.
I, I think is, is kind of whereit falls, but I don't know that
that's how it's always used.
Tana (02:45):
Yeah, I think I would agree.
I would agree with that.
And I would also agree with theassessment that the word social
probably triggers thoughts ofthe word socialism, which we
know is considered bad by acertain sect of society.
Um, so, so let's talk a littlebit about your, um, sort of
(03:08):
faith journey and the momentwhen, uh, this became a
problematic phrase for somereason.
You know, I, I remember clearlywhen you started to, read more,
not just philosophy and, uh,commentary on the Bible, but you
also just started studyingscripture more carefully and
(03:28):
under understanding the contextand the history in which it was
written.
And, your views started tochange.
And I.
What developed out of that was avery justice minded, accepting,
loving, caring for othersmindset that really marked who
(03:49):
you were as a pastor, right?
And this, in my opinion, wasgoing great at the church we
were at, and lots of people wereall about it and all about
showing people justice andmercy.
And then there was a little bitof a switch one day.
What happened?
Don (04:06):
Glenn Beck.
Tana (04:08):
I mean, that's the short answer,
Don (04:10):
So I, it was interesting hearing you tell my story there.
I, it's, you know, it's, it'sinteresting to me is that in the
midst of my own personal journeyof faith and understanding the
text, it became more and moreclear to me as time passed that.
If I had the ability or theinfluence or the power to bring
(04:36):
about change that benefitedsomebody with less of those
things, mm-hmm.
Then it was my obligation,according to scripture, to do
something
Tana (04:50):
right,
Don (04:52):
and scripture just seemed to handle this as a matter of
fact of life.
Tana (04:57):
Right.
Yeah.
Don (04:58):
That would be, this is this, this is the expectation if
you are a person of faithmm-hmm.
That if you enter a situation inwhich someone is in need of food
or clothing or are in prison,you know, this might ring true
of Matthew 25.
Right.
Or that you, you had a fieldthat you had enough produce in
the field to provide for yourhousehold, uh, and that there
(05:19):
would be some leftover, thatthere's always this, it's not
even an obligation.
It's just a given.
Like the first step of ageometry problem, right, is
always just a given.
You know what you have in frontof you and that the Bible
treated all of these moments asgivens.
You have extra produce.
(05:40):
You make it available to thosewho don't have enough produce,
right?
You have extra food.
You make it available to thosethat don't have enough food.
You have extra clothing orresources to get extra clothing.
You make it available.
This is, and, and this became, Ithink probably the phrasing I
used around was biblicaljustice, right?
(06:00):
Because I didn't see that.
Yeah.
In the world as a whole, right?
Mm-hmm.
I didn't see that as being theexpectations of the world.
Now at that time, I wasn'tnearly as political as I am now.
And so maybe there was a lot ofthose conversations happening
and I just wasn't privy of themand therefore assumed they
weren't happening.
Tana (06:19):
Sure, yeah.
Okay.
Don (06:20):
Um, but.
I realized that there's a, adeep sense of beauty that
existed in scripture that wasconstantly taking a look at what
you had and evaluating whatothers had and trying to make it
right and by make it right, Imean, uh, provide for the needs.
Tana (06:43):
Mm-hmm.
Don (06:44):
And so this is what I would've just called justice.
I would've called it justbiblical living.
I would've just called itfollowing Jesus.
And probably, what is it, 13years ago now, 14 years ago,
Glenn Beck came out and saidthat if you see the term social
justice on your church's websiteor in a sermon, run.
(07:09):
And I had a book on my shelfthat had social, it was called
like the Social JusticeHandbook, and it was put out by
our denomination actually at thetime.
Tana (07:17):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Don (07:18):
And or at least celebrated by the denomination.
Mm-hmm.
Whether or not it was anofficial denomination
Tana (07:23):
Gotcha.
Don (07:23):
Book.
It was a, it was a pastor fromwithin the denomination.
That the denomination
Tana (07:27):
Gotcha.
Don (07:27):
celebrated, et cetera.
And I remember there was someonethat came into the church to fix
a door.
And they weren't part of ourcommunity.
They were, I mean, they werepart of the general community,
but they weren't part of thechurch community.
And they saw this book on myshelf and questioned the senior
pastor about why I had this bookon my shelf that had the term
(07:51):
social justice in it.
And that was the very firstmoment that I had any sense that
what we were doing in feedingpeople or providing food for
individuals who lacked access toadequate food or provided, you
(08:15):
know, opportunities for folkswho didn't have the room to
network or what have you, thatthat was the first time that it
was ever questioned as a whole.
Like, I had people questionlike, are you gonna evangelize
these people and get them toconvert?
That question was often asked,but not the, not the heart of
(08:35):
it, which was that theyshouldn't be fed anything or
they shouldn't be given food oraccess to something.
Just, you know, if you only give'em food but you don't share the
gospel, what good does that dothem?
Which I think is unhealthythinking, obviously, but that
was the extent of thequestioning.
Tana (08:52):
Hmm.
Don (08:53):
This was the first time that the, even the very concept
of doing justice work
Tana (08:59):
mm-hmm
Don (09:00):
was questioned in my experience.
And maybe, maybe it had beenbeing questioned for a long time
and we just had avoided it.
Um, and come through thatunscathed.
But that would probably be it.
Probably about 13 years ago,Glenn Beck came out with that
statement and that really becamea major point that gained some
traction in our church.
Yeah.
I mean, not enough to stop whatwe were doing because there was
(09:21):
so many people already involvedin the justice work we were
doing, but enough to make somenoise.
Tana (09:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, the thing I didn't quiteremember, uh, I was looking back
to, to try to remember whenGlenn Beck said this and, you
know, all this stuff.
The thing I didn't really quiteremember was that there was, uh,
a Christian backlash to himsaying that.
And I guess, you know, partly Ididn't remember because I was
(09:47):
unaware of this happening, youknow, until somebody said to
you, you know, why do you havethat book?
You know?
Um,
Don (09:57):
But the Christian backlash to him were the Christians that
weren't listening to him, right?
Tana (10:01):
Yes.
Don (10:02):
So the, the Christians that were already, um, deeply
embedded in conservative radioright, weren't questioning it.
Right.
It was the people like myself,who were just sideswiped by all
of a sudden we have thispolitical commentary coming out
that in some way liberalideations are taking place in
(10:23):
the church because of thisphrase.
Tana (10:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was like, um, Jim Wallisfrom Sojourners,
Don (10:31):
which I'm pretty certain Jim Wallis does not listen to
Glenn Beck.
Tana (10:34):
Right, right.
And I, and you know, lookingback on this, I have a feeling
some of it was precipitated by,uh, Jeremiah Wright the pastor
that was the pastor of Obama'schurch.
Don (10:47):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (10:47):
And so it was a backlash to Obama, like, well, he can't
possibly be a Christian.
Well, look, nope, he not, heisn't actually, because look at
the.
What's happening in this churchthat's not Christian.
You know, it was very much a notrue Scotsman kind of a thing.
And so it became, um, ratherthan people having a difference
of opinion on what other,
Don (11:07):
I think we should investigate what the, the church
that Trump has attended hiswhole life.
Oh wait, that's probably gonnabe complicated.
Tana (11:18):
Yeah.
Probably.
Um, But, uh, yeah, I think itwas like a, well, how dare
Democrats act religious kind ofa thing, you know?
Sure.
Um, as if the right had themonopoly on Christianity.
Don (11:32):
Yeah.
Do you remember, uh, at the timeof Obama, uh, during that
presidential, uh, cycle when theelection was happening and he
was running and someone from thechurch asked to post, put up a
poster, uh, for the electionthat was a, an unbiased poster,
(11:53):
uh, that they wanted to put up.
Tana (11:54):
Oh, you're talking about our church?
Don (11:56):
Yes.
Tana (11:56):
Okay.
Sorry.
I was stuck on Obama's churchfor some reason,
Don (12:01):
and they, they approached me and said, Hey, we'd like to
put up this poster.
And I looked and it was put outby James Dobson and focus on the
family.
Tana (12:08):
Oh, interesting.
Don (12:09):
And I said, this is not unbiased.
This isn't just a factual.
They're like, but it's right.
And I was like, I mean,technically it's right, right?
And it's right leaning.
But you know, I said to him, Isaid, no, I don't think we
should put up, and I forget whatexactly he said, and I made the
comment, I'd probably be votingfor Obama.
(12:31):
And there was a small explosionthat took place within that
Bible study of all of thesefolks who couldn't even fathom
that there would be a person offaith that would vote for Obama.
And for them, they viewed thisvery, um, biased, uh, poster as
(13:00):
being factual
Tana (13:02):
Sure.
Don (13:03):
As opposed to being, you know, misleading.
Tana (13:06):
Right.
Don (13:07):
And so I think, honestly, I.
I would tie all of these reallytogether in a lot of ways.
Right?
Tana (13:14):
Sure.
Yeah.
Don (13:14):
The social justice thing as you, and kind of pulling back to
what you were saying about kindof a reaction to Obama's
election, and I really feel likehaving a black man in office
Tana (13:27):
mm-hmm
Don (13:29):
was, is evangelicals lost their damn minds.
Tana (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Don (13:36):
Um, and, and I think they would deny that it was because
he was black,
Tana (13:39):
of course.
Don (13:40):
And, but yeah.
So the social justice piece, youknow, Glenn Beck, he introduced
that concept and, and I wouldsay that that concept has just
continued.
Yeah.
And we're, we're still dealingwith it.
It's just changed its language.
Right?
Absolutely.
And so today we use the termwoke.
Right?
Right.
(14:01):
And the church is using thisterm, woke in the same way.
I would argue that it used GlennBeck used social justice.
Right.
So Tana, what is it that youthink is so terrifying to the
church 13 years ago?
A social justice or today with,uh, using the word woke?
(14:22):
What, what, what scares thechurch so badly that feeding
your neighbor that might nothave enough food, uh, or giving
space for people to be healthyis scary?
Tana (14:44):
I don't think a lot of people would admit the more
nefarious motivations there,like racism, um, other types of
bigotry like, uh, queerphobia,um,
Don (14:58):
sure.
Tana (14:59):
You know, things like that.
I think that a lot of that is atthe root of it, and things that
feel like they're outside of theaccepted ways that we've been
doing things kind of a deal.
It's scary cuz it's, it's, uh,unsettling their, you know,
viewpoint of the world.
I think also the entrance of,right wing politics into
(15:25):
religion is what caused a lot ofthis to amplify over the years.
Um, and so, certain politicalbeliefs have gotten wrapped up
in with religious beliefs andpeople can't like, untangle them
now.
Don (15:44):
Sure.
Tana (15:45):
You know, so, um, Yeah.
It's like, well, I as aChristian believe in, helping
the poor, but I'll do it.
I don't want the governmentdoing it.
Don (15:56):
Yeah.
Tana (15:56):
That, you know what I'm saying?
Don (15:58):
I, yeah.
I think there's a lot of that.
I think there's another piecetoo, and I'm gonna ask you a
question to see if maybe we cankind of dig into it together.
Is that, do you remember earlyon when we were, when we had
started doing justice work backin, I mean, I think probably
2002, 2003.
(16:20):
We really kind of, a lot of itstarted, yeah, a lot more of it
started, at least for us.
Tana (16:25):
Mm-hmm.
Don (16:27):
Do you remember what the guardrails were in doing those
things within the church?
Tana (16:38):
The guardrails?
Are you talking about likechurch capital C or the church
we were attending?
Don (16:46):
I, I think they went hand in hand.
But short Church, capital C.
Tana (16:51):
Oh my gosh.
Don (16:53):
What would people warn you if you gave someone$5?
Tana (16:56):
Oh oh, right.
That they're just gonna waste iton drugs or alcohol?
Don (17:01):
Right.
So when we first started doingjustice work, the biggest thing
we came up against was becomingthe we.
We had to be the moral compass.
Tana (17:08):
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (17:10):
Right.
And so we only gave to people,and I think we actually
discussed, we touched on this alittle bit back in our uh,
holiday guide for giving.
Tana (17:18):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:19):
But I think early on, a lot of what people would.
A lot of people's concerns were,well, if you get that person$5,
they're just gonna go spend iton alcohol.
Tana (17:27):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:28):
Do you remember that?
Tana (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:29):
And I think other people would do the thing where, well,
that's great, but if they don'thave salvation, it doesn't
matter.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of theguardrails in the church where
it's okay to feed people, butonly the right people.
Tana (17:45):
Mm-hmm.
Don (17:45):
It's okay to take care of the needs of people, but only if
you ensured they were gonna usethose things.
In the proper way.
Right?
It's okay to, uh, do work tobring about awareness of social
problems or abject poverty, etcetera, as long as X, Y, and Z.
So there was always a anasterisk.
(18:08):
Yeah.
Everything we did had anasterisk and it was basically,
We had to pass, and I don'tthink anyone would've said this
at the time, right?
In early two thousands, but wehad to pass it through the
collective wisdom of affluentwhite suburbanites
Tana (18:24):
Yes.
Don (18:25):
as to whether or not a person was deserving
Tana (18:29):
Yes.
Don (18:31):
of the help that we were offering.
This to me is, is kind of thekey to why everyone really.
Has become offended by the ideaof social justice.
Hmm.
Because I would argue that what,what, what has transpired is
over the years people said no,even if someone uses that money,
(18:57):
To get drunk or uses that food,turns around and sells it.
Or a bicycle.
That was a big one, right?
Like they're just gonna sell thebike.
And I was like, great.
We created an economic system.
Tana (19:07):
Right, right.
Don (19:07):
Which really would make everyone mad.
I'm like, so, so what?
So they sold the bike and Yeah.
So someone else got a bike for aprice that they agreed to.
They received money that theydidn't have in their pocket
before.
And uh, wow.
Awesome.
Tana (19:21):
Yeah.
Don (19:21):
We created a business.
Right.
Like trickle down economics.
No.
Right.
I'm just joking about that.
But it's, it's, but it was, ourmindset was, you know, even
when, do you remember what wewould say if someone said, what
if they're gonna spend it onalcohol?
Tana (19:37):
No,
Don (19:38):
I would say So you don't binge watch Netflix?
Tana (19:42):
Oh, yes.
Yes.
I do remember that.
Don (19:43):
Like we all medicate, like every person medicates.
Yeah.
And if you are living on thestreets under a bridge, you
wanna buy a beer to get throughthe night?
Mm-hmm.
Tana (19:54):
How many people just in middle class buy beer to get
through the night?
Don (19:57):
I'm literally drinking a beer right now.
Tana (19:59):
Right.
Don (20:00):
While doing this, while recording this podcast.
Tana (20:02):
Right.
Don (20:03):
But we all medicate.
Tana (20:04):
Yeah.
Don (20:05):
Every person medicates.
And not just with the properpharmaceuticals.
Tana (20:10):
Right.
Don (20:10):
And because of that, we, we don't get the right, we don't
have the right to say, I get tomedicate and I get to medicate
the way I feel is best for me.
But you, yeah.
I don't trust your decisionmaking.
I don't trust your behavior.
Yeah.
I think when social justicestarted coming in or a, a
younger generation, millennials,uh, late Gen Xers
Tana (20:33):
mm-hmm.
Don (20:34):
Younger Gen Xers, however, I don't even know how you say
that term, but I.
Uh, gen Xers that were closer tothe millennial age group.
Tana (20:40):
Right, right.
Don (20:40):
Yeah.
That a lot more people startedsaying, no, they just deserve to
have food.
Right.
No, they just deserve to haveshelter.
No, they just deserve, like theyhave, like they're a human
being.
Tana (20:54):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Don (20:54):
And I even think around the time of Glen Beck, and I might
be wrong completely on mytimeline, there was a big deal
going on in Florida where theywere going to start drug
testing.
Tana (21:04):
Oh yes.
For, um, food benefits and Yes.
Um, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Don (21:08):
And I remember our community, our faith community
as a church, that there was alot of people that were very
supportive of that.
Yeah.
And I just said, what happens ifa parent is an addict and they
have a child?
Tana (21:21):
Mm-hmm.
Don (21:21):
Do we withhold the food from the child?
Tana (21:23):
Right.
Don (21:24):
And they're like, well, they shouldn't have had a kid.
Okay.
Tana (21:26):
Wow.
Don (21:27):
Right.
But, but here's the thing again.
Yeah.
But you are against abortionrights.
So you forced them to have akid.
Right.
And uh, and even whether youthink that they shouldn't have
or not, doesn't matter nowbecause you forced them to have
the child.
Right.
And now you're saying, but nowthat that child's born, I
demanded the child be born.
(21:47):
But now that the child's bornYeah.
It's their, it's on them and theparents shouldn't have had the
child.
And pointing out some of thesethings is just not something the
church had ever questionedbefore.
Tana (21:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And because of that, as, asthings became more and more
politicized, and as youmentioned, you know, the, the
church became more embedded inthe right wing, uh, you know,
politics.
Mm-hmm.
Don (22:13):
It became more and more of pick yourself up by the
bootstrap.
Mm-hmm.
Which became, if you remember,early on, no one was making that
argument to us as we were doingthings to provide food, et
cetera, but pretty quickly aftera period of time, it was like,
shouldn't people just like fixthemselves if people would just
fix themselves.
Tana (22:32):
Right.
Don (22:32):
You know, and I would say, you know, that's like saying,
Jesus, why don't you, uh, takeyourself down off the cross and,
uh, survive this.
Right.
Like, You know, uh, physicianheal thyself, right?
All biblical phrases that wewould hold dear and be like,
look at Jesus.
He didn't do these things right?
Yeah.
But yet we would imply thatothers had to do these things.
Tana (22:55):
I, I think what's what's interesting about a lot of these
things is, is, um, first of all,To go back to the Glen Beck
thing, he said, look for thephrases, social justice or
economic justice.
He mentioned both of thosephrases.
Don (23:09):
He did.
Yeah.
Tana (23:10):
Which I think is extremely interesting because what I think
all this that you're describing,um, was a lot more economic
arguments coming into helpingpeople than we had seen before.
So like that Florida drugtesting thing.
Don (23:25):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (23:27):
I remember seeing lots of people, like on social media or
people just in conversationsaying, well, it's just not the
best use of our resources togive, um, this stuff assistance
to somebody on drugs.
And so, you know, you wanna makesure it's getting, it's getting
to everybody, you know?
Don (23:46):
Sure.
Tana (23:46):
And so it was almost like there were this benevolent
argument and then when they didthe study and found out that it
actually cost more to drug testpeople, these
Don (23:55):
It was only like 1%.
Tana (23:56):
Yeah.
Cause it was such a tiny, Idon't even think it was one, it
was such like a tiny percentageof people who actually tested
positive for drugs.
Um, it cost them way more to dothis program than to just feed
everybody.
Don (24:06):
Correct.
Tana (24:07):
And I, when that came out, and I mentioned that to some of
those same people, they werelike, they should still do it.
Because it's not right.
And I'm like, but your, yourwhole argument to me before was
it was an economic thing.
Don (24:18):
Great.
Yes.
So that's perfect.
Good segue.
Tana (24:21):
Thanks.
Don (24:21):
So then, what was it?
Tana (24:24):
They're not deserving.
That was like, I think it's thatthey're not deserving and being
poor started to become a moralfailing.
Don (24:34):
Yeah.
I don't need anything startedbut be but got maybe more
Tana (24:37):
fair
Don (24:38):
mainstream.
Had more mainstream, uh,acceptance to that idea.
Tana (24:43):
Yeah.
That it was, it was a moralfailing rather than a systemic
failing.
And I honestly think that a lotof the reason why a lot of
people will clinging to thatidea is because it's more
palatable, because it relievesthem of responsibility of like,
oh, I participate in the system,or maybe I even perpetuate this
system.
It also allows em
Don (25:03):
to say, that's their concern.
Not, not that they're racist,just just like homophobic or
what have you.
Tana (25:07):
Wash their hands of it.
Don (25:08):
Yeah.
Right.
So how then would you say thisrelates to woke?
Tana (25:15):
Well, I think it's like what you said earlier, it's just
a different, it's, it's thephrase,
Don (25:20):
but it's not about economics anymore.
Tana (25:23):
Oh yeah.
Now it's the culture wars
Don (25:25):
and Right.
It's about race.
Yeah.
Gender and a sexuality.
Tana (25:30):
But, but I kind of, Think it's still about economics.
I think they're just hiding itbetter.
I, I mean, everything is aboutthe children supposedly, and I,
I just think that's a cover.
Um, like Glen Beck, when I waslooking up the original thing
from Glen Beck from like 2010, Isaw that he had a more recent
(25:51):
thing in 2022 about how wokeinfiltrated the church.
And I was like, oh, this wasprobably just a continuation,
continu Continu continuation ofwhat he did, what he said
before, and he had, he had aguest on who was a, a pastor, A
rev, a reverend from Zambianamed Voddie Baucham.
Don (26:06):
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Wait, wait.
Timeout.
Yeah.
Tana (26:08):
What.
Don (26:09):
Um, I glanced over at your notes and just in the middle of
the paper there's one sentence.
Tana (26:14):
I'm not reading it.
I was mad.
Don (26:16):
I will, I will.
Tana (26:17):
I was, I was yelling.
Don (26:17):
So I want, I want you all to know the righteous
indignation of Tana becauseright in the middle of the page,
as I look over it just says heis a dick.
Um, I actually think that sumsit up quite nicely, but go ahead
on with your more, uh,
Tana (26:33):
I yelled a lot at.
YouTube yesterday.
Um, so this, uh, Voddie Bauchamwas saying that we are
experiencing judgment right now,you know,
Don (26:45):
as Christians or as
Tana (26:46):
Yeah.
For from God.
Don (26:48):
Um, oh, okay.
So the world
Tana (26:49):
Yes, the world is
Don (26:50):
not just Christians.
Okay.
Tana (26:51):
Yeah.
Um, and then, Uh, they talkedabout how the Obergefell
decision that allowed same sexmarriage, um, they said, oh, you
know, back then we were, we weretold we were being too alarmist
about the slippery slope, butthe slippery slope has happened
and there's, and they were justmaking stuff up and saying like,
(27:14):
uh, well, liberals are okay withpedophilia.
And there's just so, like, theywere acting as if like, um,
every liberal was just like,"cool, yeah.
Abuse kids, no problem." Andalso that every single LGBTQ+
individual was a pedophile, andit was just this awful, and I
(27:37):
think that's what we see goingon with all these conversations
is like, like all the, the transstuff, all the drag queen stuff,
all this stuff is like, but whatabout the children?
But if they actually cared aboutchildren, then they would do
something about gun control andthey would do something about a
lot of other things.
(27:57):
And so to me it's, again, it'sanother like red herring, like
we are concerned about children,but what it actually is, is we
don't like this.
It makes us uncomfortable.
It, it's not in our norm.
Don (28:12):
Well, and I think some of this is a loss of power.
Tana (28:14):
Absolutely.
Don (28:15):
Because the, the church for so long, Had all the power in
the US right?
And the church had so muchinfluence, and as the church
started losing more and moreinfluence, it was necessary to
create the, uh, it wasn't the,uh, the religious right.
What was it at the time?
Um, Oh my gosh.
(28:38):
When they, they introduced theconcept of abortion being a
religious thing.
It was the moral majority.
Tana (28:43):
Oh, the moral majority, yes.
Don (28:44):
Right.
And so this moral majoritybecomes a thing because the
church had begun to lose itsgrip of power.
Yeah.
And I think what happens, so canyou think of an instance?
I can think of one for myself.
Speeding.
Tana (28:58):
Okay.
Don (28:58):
For the most part, I don't Speed.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
But if we're traveling back toPennsylvania to visit your
family, and it's a four 50 miletrip.
Tana (29:06):
Mm-hmm.
Don (29:07):
I speed.
Tana (29:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (29:09):
But I almost have a view of myself.
Not almost.
I do, I have a view of myselfthat it's okay that I speed that
Don Schiewer speeds.
Yeah, because I, I payattention.
You're in control.
I understand.
I, I am better than the averagedriver, and I am capable of
(29:30):
controlling the car better thanthe average person.
And since I cycle, I bicycle somany places.
I'm very aware of pedestriansand so I.
I, I am the loophole.
Right, right.
Tana (29:45):
You're the exception.
Don (29:46):
So tell me about you being an exception because I, I'm
certain you, you view yourselfas an exception someplace.
Tana (29:53):
Never.
I'm, I'm the most humble personyou'll ever meet.
Don (30:01):
That might be an exception right there.
Tana (30:04):
Uh, I'm sure I do.
Uh, I can't think of one off thetop of my head.
Don (30:08):
So I think it's something that we all do, right?
It's that we are more likely totrust ourself than someone else.
I, I mean, that seems like avery, very simple idea.
Tana (30:17):
Yeah.
Don (30:17):
Right.
Like that if it came down tosomeone, it's like, let me do it
because I know I'll do it.
Right.
Yeah.
Type thing.
Right?
Tana (30:23):
Yeah.
Don (30:23):
And I think this is what the church went through and is
going through.
Tana (30:27):
Mm-hmm.
Don (30:28):
Like we get to, we have the corner on the market for
morality, and we know betterthan the rest of the world.
About morality.
Yeah.
And now all of a sudden the restof the world is saying, hey,
these are, these are spaces inwhich we need to do better with
(30:51):
morality.
Tana (30:52):
Mm-hmm.
Don (30:52):
And the church
Tana (30:54):
mm-hmm.
Don (30:54):
Has been exposed as not being the leader of morality.
Yeah.
Right.
Whether it is all the scandalsthat happen constantly of sexual
coverups, of indiscretions inthe churches, all these things
that are just perpetuated,constantly by the church.
We see it in the news, we see iteverywhere all the time.
(31:15):
And the church has lost itsstance.
And I would argue it neverdeserved probably to have the
stance.
Tana (31:21):
Yeah.
Don (31:21):
Maybe, right?
Tana (31:22):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:22):
Maybe there was a time, I don't know.
Tana (31:24):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:24):
But that- now the church is no longer this beacon of
righteousness.
Tana (31:31):
Right?
Don (31:33):
And as it scrambles to reclaim it.
Tana (31:39):
Mm-hmm.
Don (31:40):
It is reclaiming it by villainizing all the other
things that were dis, that theyhad not agreed to.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Tana (31:50):
Yeah.
Don (31:51):
And so whether it's.
CRT.
Right.
Critical race theory, like,which is not being taught in
schools.
Right.
And, uh,
Tana (32:00):
it's a law theory.
Don (32:02):
And even if some le some version of that is being taught
in schools, it's still not beingtaught in the way that is being,
uh, discussed or argued that itis being, that it's happening,
uh, whether it's lgbtq things,right.
Uh, it's gender equality, it'sgender acknowledgement, right?
(32:26):
These things in general are now,the church is basically having
the spotlight on them of howthey have failed to actually be
the beacon of light in theworld, and the church has,
instead of accepting the rebukeof society, has doubled down.
Tana (32:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's hard for meto remember, uh, being in that
place where you think onlyChristians can be moral.
I don't know that I ever fullybelieved that, like,
Don (33:07):
but it was definitely all around us.
But it was, it was especially inthe nineties, eighties,
nineties.
Tana (33:11):
Yeah.
And because of how people spokeabout it around me, um, I'm sure
there was a time that like I metan atheist and was surprised
that they were nice and kind,you know?
Don (33:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (33:22):
Um, but I do, one thing I do remember clearly is, uh,
working in an office where theone person was an atheist and
was like the super nicest personever and, um, very kind and
generous and uh, great allaround.
And I remember somebody at ourchurch saying something like,
(33:44):
"Well, he is going to hell." Iremember we were talking about
like kindness and everything,and I mentioned him and they're
like,"well, is he Christian?"I'm like, no.
And they're like,"well, he isgoing to hell." And I'm like,
how, how?
That it, how, you know?
And that was, that was like a, alittle break for me too.
I mean in the, you know, of, oflike just declaring that he's
(34:05):
going to hell j just because ofthat.
Don (34:07):
It was the culmination of that thinking that I would argue
led to Rob Bell's, you know,book that kind of put him on the
map, love wins, right?
Tana (34:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (34:15):
Is that, that argument that, uh, Gandhi, a lot of
Christians would say, Gandhi isburning in hell.
Right?
And how could that possibly be,right?
Tana (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
Don (34:23):
And I, I think so.
I.
A lot of younger people.
Again, this is where I go to theyounger Gen X and I, I mean just
Gen X in general I think becomeskind of that shifting, that
crossroads, um, of thinking thatstarts to be more open to the
idea that maybe there isgoodness out there in the world
that is not draped in, uh, thecross, right.
Or the blood of Jesus.
(34:44):
Right.
And.
And it's interesting to mebecause when we look at these
things, we see the exceptionshappening all over in the
church.
Tana (34:54):
Mm-hmm.
Don (34:54):
Right?
So like whoever the guy is thatMargie Taylor Green is dating
now who did, uh, dressed up likea woman several different times.
Tana (35:03):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:04):
Live on television.
Mm-hmm.
Well, he's the exception, right?
Or, uh, what is it?
Is it the Log Cabin Republicans?
Tana (35:12):
Maybe
Don (35:12):
that are gay.
Tana (35:13):
Yes.
Don (35:14):
Um, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the log Cabin Republicans whoare gay, but they're the
exception.
Right.
Uh, or that you have, uh,different Republican candidate
or candidates or, uh,politicians or just, you know,
people that identify within theRepublican party who are African
American or people of color.
Tana (35:31):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:31):
And well, they're the exception.
Tana (35:34):
Mm-hmm.
Don (35:35):
And so we do all these things where we imagine that we
can do it.
Right.
But it's because we areexceptional.
Tana (35:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, and I wonder howthat, it's weird to say that
that translates to when like,you know, pastors are found to
be guilty of, uh, child abuse orsexual abuse or both.
Um, like, uh,
Don (36:05):
well then we just blame the devil.
Tana (36:06):
Well, I.
But there's this weird circlingof the wagons, like, like Matt
Walsh was like supported JoshDugger.
But then like makes accusationsagainst trans people without any
evidence whatsoever that thereare pedophiles, you know?
Don (36:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tana (36:23):
Um, and like that dude was actually a pedophile.
Like, you know, like it was likefor real.
Um, and there's all these times.
I mean, there's been so manydocumentaries lately, right?
About like, uh, the Duggars and,um, the people behind, uh,
Hillsong and there's justconstantly, uh, pastors being
(36:44):
exposed.
And then once somebody digs intoit, like, oh yeah, this pastor
has been sexually abusing peoplefor years.
And the leadership found, like,found out about it multiple
occasions and covered it up and,and
Don (36:57):
that's because they would argue the greater
good.
Tana (37:00):
But that's so
Don (37:01):
I'm not saying it's right.
I'm saying that's right.
That's the mindset, right?
Is that this church, look at allthe good this church has done.
Look at all the people who havecome to faith because of this
church.
Are we really going to throw allof that away because this person
messed up?
Tana (37:17):
But, but the thing that drives, like I.
With that kind of mentality isthen that they will go and
preach about against it.
Don (37:28):
Of course.
Tana (37:28):
With no sense of, you know, and
Don (37:31):
a hundred percent, yeah.
Tana (37:32):
So it's like, how can you allow it to happen and then tell
other people that, you know,their, their life is sinful
because they had sex before theygot married or you know,
whatever.
Don (37:43):
But again, I think this comes right back to the
exceptionalism, right?
Yeah.
Is that we can handle it.
Right.
We will.
Address it privately.
We will take care of itprivately.
We will, right?
We will handle it in house andit will be fine, right?
Because we are uniquely equippedand I think a lot of times they
(38:04):
would say by God to sure handlesuch a situation, or this is
just God.
Testing us, or this is the devilattacking us and it's so
therefore it can't be true.
And it just, we, the church hasallowed itself to be able to
convince itself
Tana (38:21):
mm-hmm.
Don (38:22):
That any accusation, any, uh, pointing out of wrongdoing
Tana (38:28):
mm-hmm.
Don (38:28):
Is because they are doing so much good.
Tana (38:33):
Yes, absolutely.
And then I think the other sideof that, Um, and this kind of
goes towards the social justicepiece, is, uh, accusations and
trying to hold peopleaccountable and stuff like that
are also seen as divisive.
And so the idea is that you'rejust supposed to let the people
(38:54):
in power do what they please.
And if you try to stand up foran oppressed person in any way,
you are the troublemaker.
Don (39:03):
Yes.
Tana (39:03):
You're the person in the wrong.
And I, I mean, it really doescome back to, I think, the
exceptionalism, but alsoauthoritarianism.
Like, like it's this.
Don (39:13):
I think you can only be authoritarian if you think
you're exceptional.
Tana (39:16):
That's, uh, fair.
Um, and, but I, but there's,yeah, there's other, the, but
the people are like, well,that's, that's the pastor,
that's the person in power.
That's the person who iswonderful.
And they can do no wrong.
And it's just, yeah.
So I think this, backlash, notbacklash, that's not the right
word.
All of these attacks ondifferent oppressed populations
(39:38):
now and this increased like waragainst woke and all that stuff
is a, yeah.
They see their power slippingaway and they need to keep it.
Don (39:49):
And when you're exception- when you view yourself as
exceptional, You can convinceyourself that this is a David
Bathsheba moment.
Tana (39:58):
Interesting
Don (39:58):
that, uh, I'm exceptional.
Like David was exceptional, andyes, David did something
horrendous.
But look at what David becameand imagine if we would've just
put David to death.
Right, and so I think thatthere's a mindset whether they
they go there or not.
(40:20):
Specific to that, right, is thatexceptionalism is it comes out
right like that.
What would've happened if wewould've put David to death
instead of letting him carry onas king and lead Israel?
My argument would be the Biblewould just be a little bit
different.
Tana (40:36):
Right.
Don (40:36):
Right.
Like, I don't, I don't know thatit brings the whole thing down,
but because we can't imagine anyother way, and we believe that
God ordained every single stepof history.
Tana (40:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (40:47):
Then David had to do that.
Tana (40:50):
Right.
Don (40:50):
And then it becomes this mindset of, well, we're, we're
just having our David Bathshebamoment.
Right.
Tana (40:56):
But you know, people, that's a dis that's a
descriptive story.
It's not prescriptive.
Don (41:01):
Well, again, but, but this is what I say is actually a flaw
in Christendom.
Tana (41:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (41:07):
And I would say probably not as much in progressive
Christianity, but
Tana (41:13):
still to a degree
Don (41:14):
still, still active, is reading these stories of
miraculous things, uhhuh theseexceptional stories in the Bible
and making them ordinary, right?
Like when I hear someone say,You know, I'm having a Daniel in
the Lions Day- Den moment, andI'm like, you had a bad day at
work.
Like, like you had a bad day atwork.
(41:35):
You are not Daniel in thelion's.
Tana (41:37):
You don't know.
Maybe they were actuallycornered by lions on the way
home.
Don (41:40):
Even so you're still not, the government hasn't publicly
ex attempted to execute you,right?
Yeah.
Right.
Like so.
No.
Yeah.
You still aren't.
Right.
Even if you run into a pack oflions, this is not your Daniel
moment.
Tana (41:53):
Yeah.
I think that that's reallyinteresting cuz that I think
that the, uh, that speaks to thewhole like Satan's crouching at
every door kind of thing.
Don (42:01):
Yeah.
Like Satan even knows myfricking name, right?
Tana (42:03):
Like, Oh, I ordered rye bread and they gave me sourdough
Satan.
Like, it's just, there is this,like this weird thing where it's
like, yeah, these like tinymoments are like, right, brought
to be evil If,
Don (42:20):
if satan doesn't have the Omnis.
By the way, I don't even knowthat God has the Omnis.
I don't omnis, I don't know whatI feel about that.
But if I would say most ofChristendom does not believe
that the Satan has any Omni.
Tana (42:31):
Mm-hmm.
Don (42:32):
So not omnipresent.
Not omniscient.
Tana (42:35):
Mm-hmm.
Don (42:36):
So therefore doesn't know everything and isn't present
everywhere at the same time.
But yet he's waiting for Donright outside my door.
Tana (42:44):
Right.
Don (42:44):
Come on.
Yeah.
Tana (42:45):
Right.
Well, probably.
Don (42:47):
I mean, so it's, it's this absurdity, but we're, it's so
part of our
Tana (42:51):
Yeah.
Don (42:52):
story it's a part of how we're, we're raised and we're
taught to think in, in thechurch, particularly evangelical
Protestant churches, is thisidea that the Satan is just
waiting to get hold of you.
Tana (43:05):
Yeah.
And it's, that's another, that'sthe spiritual aspect of the
tools of fear that people areusing.
Don (43:14):
Yep.
And you know, I've heard, andyou've probably have heard this
too, you know, sheep in, uh, awolf in sheep's clothing.
Tana (43:21):
Yes.
Don (43:21):
Right.
And so a lot of times goodthings that the world is doing
Tana (43:25):
mm-hmm.
Don (43:26):
Because the church hasn't come up with it.
Tana (43:28):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:29):
The church will be like, just, no, it's probably a wolf
in sheep's clothing.
Tana (43:32):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:32):
Right.
It looks good, but it's probablygoing to be terrible.
Tana (43:35):
Mm-hmm.
Don (43:36):
And, but that's what we've done in order to, and this is
the irony to me to, because webecome convinced, that's how we
preserve the faith, that ifwe're not smart, the wolves are
gonna infiltrate.
The irony is, they have.
Tana (43:57):
Mm-hmm.
We just disagree on who thewolves are.
Don (44:00):
The wolves have penetrated or infiltrated.
And it's because the wolves walkin, in wolf's closing, but are
like warning about the rest ofthe wolves that are coming.
Just so you know, all thesewolves are gonna be coming and
the wolf then wanders aroundamong the sheep eating one or
two.
Tana (44:16):
But I'm the exceptional wolf!
Don (44:17):
And and only, and honestly there's a hundred sheep and I
only eat one or two.
One or two.
But those sheep or those wolvesout there on the perimeter,
they're going to eat all of you.
And so yes, I might, I might eatone or two every now and then.
Yeah.
But aren't you grateful that youhave me here to tell you about?
And I think Donald Trump is thatexact thing, right?
(44:37):
Oh yeah.
Is that he, is that wolf insheep's clothing and I don't
even think he's bothered to wearsheep's clothing.
No.
And he's just like, I'm gonnastand in the midst of you.
I'm going to slowly devour you.
Tana (44:47):
Mm-hmm.
Don (44:49):
And while I'm doing it, I'm gonna make you thank me that I'm
keeping the rest of the wolvesat bay.
And you go"yeah.
I wish he didn't say some of thethings he said.
And yeah, he's kind of gross upwhen he are towards women, but.
You know, he does a really goodjob at pointing out all the
dangers of the other wolves."
Tana (45:06):
Yeah.
And I think the more extremist,um, elements of that line of
thinking, I.
Are so concerning because youknow, I just saw a thing the
other day where people wereinterviewing Trump supporters
and the one guy was going on andon about how much he loved God
and Trump.
And then, you know, the guy wasasking a bunch of questions
about the indictments and allthis stuff, and then said, is
(45:29):
there anything Trump could do tolose your vote?
And the guy was like, no, Idon't think so.
And he was like, what if he wason the steps of the White House
and murdered someone and likeright in front of everybody?
And he was like,"No, I'd stillvote for him."
Don (45:43):
Yeah.
I saw that interview and thenthat ended the interview.
Yeah.
And the guy just walks away.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, but this is the thing,right?
Is that we would rather, what isit, you know, uh, the, the
enemy, you know, versus theenemy you don't know.
Tana (45:58):
Yeah.
Don (45:59):
And, and we've, we've twisted that, right?
And we've made it, um, thatit's, it's better.
Tana (46:06):
Right.
Don (46:06):
To have someone like that in our midst Right.
Than it is to have someone onthe outside like that and we can
even convince ourselves thenthat God sent us that person.
Tana (46:17):
Yeah.
Don (46:17):
Right.
So we're, we're almost out oftime.
Hmm.
We're getting close.
Okay.
So the one thing I would, Idon't want us to do.
What should it be?
Tana (46:29):
What should what be?
Don (46:31):
Instead of being afraid of social justice
Tana (46:34):
mm-hmm.
Don (46:34):
And afraid of woke.
Tana (46:36):
Mm-hmm.
Don (46:38):
What, what should the faithful be about?
Tana (46:43):
You know, um,
Don (46:48):
I, and what's a biblical understanding of that?
Tana (46:51):
I actually think that would be an excellent thing to
explore in multiple podcastepisodes, which we have in a
little bit in past episodes.
But, um, I wish more peoplewould actually study the Bible
instead of listening tobombastic preachers.
Um, cuz there have been lots ofpreachers who have, uh, kind of
(47:15):
changed their ways to protecttheir jobs.
And lots of preachers who havelost their jobs because they
weren't trumpy enough for theircongregation.
I don't think, I think there's alot of pastors who actually
don't know scripture very well,and they wanna keep their power
and so they're preaching fearfulthings and, um, hateful things.
(47:36):
And, um, I think I wish peoplewould do a little bit more
investigating.
You know, a little more Biblestudy and start to actually see
like you actually read who Jesuswas and it's so in incongruent
with the face we see ofevangelicalism today, like the,
(47:59):
the, the thing we see the moston the news and, you know,
things like that.
Don (48:07):
Yeah, I, I would, I would say, obviously I agree with you.
I think the church needs tostudy the Hebrew Bible more.
Tana (48:18):
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Don (48:20):
Uh, give Paul a break.
He's exhausted, gosh.
From you just flipping throughhis pages constantly.
Tana (48:26):
Yes.
Give Paul a break.
Leave him alone.
Don (48:28):
Uh, let's turn to some gospels and let's turn to some
of Torah.
Right?
Yeah.
The thing that I often point outin, in these conversations is
that, When the Bible calls us todo justice
Tana (48:47):
mm-hmm.
Don (48:49):
It calls us to do it without any bias.
Tana (48:55):
Right, right.
Don (48:55):
Leave the corners of your field.
Right.
For who?
Tana (48:58):
Anyone.
Don (48:59):
Anyone.
Yeah.
Whoever passes by and needs somefood.
Oh, but what if, what if theyactually are?
Are going to turn around andsell that food and uh, and use
it for something nefarious,well, that's on them.
So you leave the, leave thecorners of your field for the
poor and the sojourner, doesn'tmatter who they are, don't even
(49:21):
matter if they're an enemy tothe people of Israel.
You leave the corners of yourfield.
You see someone who is hungry,you don't say, how'd you end up
hungry?
And then I'll determine whetheror not you deserve food, or let
me make sure you live in my zipcode, or let me make sure you
haven't gotten food from someoneelse.
(49:41):
It doesn't have that.
It's just you feed them.
Yeah.
Right.
And even when we read passageslike in, uh, Leviticus 19, where
it talks about loving yourneighbor as yourself.
It talks about leaving thecorners of the field there, but
it also talks about ensuringthat the people who lack power,
(50:04):
that their voice is still heard.
Tana (50:07):
Mm-hmm.
Don (50:07):
And make sure that someone who is affluent gets a fair
trial too.
Tana (50:12):
Right.
Don (50:13):
Right.
That it, it, the Bible does anamazing job.
At removing bias from thedecision making that comes into
play for many of our modernsociety.
And I'm, I'm not even sayingjust conservative Christianity.
I think we all have a bias whenit comes to helping someone.
Tana (50:33):
Yeah.
Don (50:34):
And we determine their worthiness.
Yeah.
And the Bible is like, if youhave extra food and someone
doesn't have enough, If you'dconsider yourself a participant
amongst the faithful, you giveyour food.
Yeah.
And listen, none of us do thatperfectly.
Tana (50:55):
Sure.
Don (50:56):
Um, you know, the Bible actually implies that if you
have a spare coat and yourneighbor doesn't have a coat
that it implies, I believe it'sin Malachi, or Micah.
One of the M profits that itimplies that you're stealing
from them.
Tana (51:13):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:14):
If you don't offer them your spare coat.
Tana (51:16):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:18):
That's some powerful stuff.
Tana (51:19):
Mm-hmm.
Don (51:20):
And that's some, that's some justice effort that we are
called to.
And instead what we have done istried to determine who is worthy
of our extra coat, who is worthyof the, the, the, the extra food
in our cabinets or the extramoney that we have, the
(51:44):
affluence, the, the power, whois worthy of those things.
And we always assume that weare, we're the best decision
makers.
Tana (51:53):
Yeah.
Don (51:55):
And we don't take into account people's circumstances,
circumstances or situations.
And we do the same, not just ineconomic situations.
Tana (52:02):
Mm-hmm.
Don (52:03):
But we do the same in relational situations.
Tana (52:05):
Mm-hmm.
Don (52:06):
Judging who is deserving to experience love.
Yeah.
Determining who is deserving ofexperiencing companionship and
grace and who is, yeah.
It just goes on and on and it'snot biblical.
Tana (52:21):
Yeah.
Don (52:22):
And if you're a listener and you think.
That you can make a case againstwhat we said today.
I'd love to have you on.
Yeah, I'd love to.
I'd love to discuss it with you.
Tana (52:33):
Yeah.
I think the, my last piece thatI think people should do is look
at the world through a lens of,you know, biblical
understanding.
Um, a, a, a faith lens ratherthan a political lens.
I think too many people areputting their, putting their
(52:55):
political lens on to look attheir religion rather than the
other way around.
And I know I've been guilty ofthat at times.
I get too, too wrapped up in,um, maybe a liberal source of
news and, you know, I get firedup and all that stuff.
But my political affiliationchanged after I started reading
(53:17):
the Bible more.
So my view of what we should doand my, my political affiliation
and, and, and any other, youknow, anything that is
considered quote unquotepolitical, which feels like
everything these days, my viewof that is filtered through
faith, through the bible,through, you know, and I would
just encourage more people to dothat because I think sometimes
(53:41):
it feels like you're goingagainst these beliefs.
These, you know, that are in youbecause of how you were raised
and your political stance and,and who you listen to and
everything, and, and that'sbecoming the louder voice than
faith, God.
Don (53:59):
Agreed.
Tana (54:00):
Yeah.
So final thoughts.
All right.
Well, Thank you all for joiningus today.
Uh, if you're interested intalking more about this, like
Don said, reach out.
We would love to chat withpeople.
I think this is reallyimportant, so would love to hear
from you.
Would also love to hear from youif you have any suggested topics
you'd like to hear us talkabout.
(54:21):
So, uh, yeah.
So you can reach us on all thesocials for that, or you can
email us atinfo@ajffpodcast.com.
You can find more about thepodcast at ajffpodcast.com.
You can support us atbuymeacoffee.com/ajff and I
think that's about it.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks.
Don (54:42):
Go be woke.
Bye.
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