Episode Transcript
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Don (00:00):
do we need church is the right question, but I think we
(00:04):
think of it in the wrong way.
Tana (00:06):
Okay.
Don (00:07):
That's the question that the church should be asking,
right, right.
And the church should be askingthat.
And then saying, what should webe doing as a church to make a
church feel like a necessary orimportant part of our
(00:28):
community's life?
Tana (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
I am one of the co hosts on yourjourney today, Tana Schiewer and
I'm here with my other co host,Don Schiewer hey,
Don (00:45):
you'd think into season three, Tana that, um, the intro
part would be,
Tana (00:51):
it is, it never gets easier.
I feel awkward every singletime.
Don (00:55):
It doesn't show.
It doesn't show.
Tana (00:57):
I'm sure.
I'm, I'm just an old pro at thisnow.
And, uh, Sarah is still onbreak.
So, um, hi Sarah.
We miss you anyway.
Um, so today we're going to talkabout church.
Don (01:11):
Take me to church.
Tana (01:14):
Well, actually we're talking about sort of the
opposite, aren't we?
Do we need church?
Don (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I guess the the conversation is you know yet
to be determined But yeah, weare we are gonna have to have a
I think that's where a lot ofpeople are right now.
There's a lot of folks who intheir deconstruction process
have left the church that theyhad been attending and now are
(01:40):
either they would say, it's kindof nice just having my Sundays
Tana (01:44):
right.
Yeah.
Don (01:45):
And so I don't know that I want to go to church again, or
the, the, the fear, the effortto actually, um, find a church
is overwhelming.
And then on top of all that, isit even something that is
necessary and or beneficial tomy household?
Tana (02:06):
Well, and I think a lot of people are also, um, there's a
lot of people who are recoveringfrom church hurt, so it is, you
know, whether they, uh, wereexplicitly told they weren't
welcome at the church or, um, ona more extreme end, end, uh,
experienced abuse in the churchor just, you know, people were
(02:29):
kind of mean or what, you know,a really large range of hurt and
or trauma that can come from achurch context.
And so I think some people arelike, why, why do I need it?
Why do I need to be in thatenvironment?
Right.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Um, do we need church Don?
Don (02:52):
That's, that's just, that's the question.
That's where we're jumping in?
Tana (02:56):
I mean, we don't have to start there.
I mean, I think that's the, the,the subject we wanted to discuss
today.
I think, um, I guess maybe agood place to start would be, is
there a biblical imperative togo to church?
Don (03:18):
No, but there is to go to the temple.
Tana (03:21):
Okay, can you please elaborate?
Don (03:24):
The, the text, one of the things that we make a mistake
with is conflating the templewith the church.
The synagogue would have been,uh, the, the ancient comparison
to the church, not the temple.
So there's, so there's all kindsof passages that talks about,
(03:46):
uh, going up to the temple fordifferent feasts and for
different holidays.
But even attending the templewas only a few times a year
during the Ascension feasts.
And so even then...
Built into the biblical calendaris almost the see and ear
effect, except it wasn'tChristmas and Easter.
(04:06):
It was like Passover and, uh,the high holy days of Rosh
Hashanah.
Those types of holidays were thedays that you would, regardless
of where you were in the world,and then obviously at that time
the world was a much smallerplace, at least to Israel.
Sure.
You would drop what you weredoing and you would go to the
(04:29):
temple.
And so you would have theselarge masses of people moving
from the Diaspora, which is thedisplacement or the distribution
of the Jews into the differentareas around the world.
And you would have all of theDiaspora returning to Jerusalem
to go up to the Temple.
And so we see that, uh, in fact,that's when a census was
(04:51):
typically held was during thattime because it would, this is
when people were returning toland that they owned or back to,
you know, family, maybe theywere out, you know, whatever it
might be, the reasons thatthey're part of the diaspora,
people returning back.
Tana (05:06):
And isn't that, uh, part of the story of why Jesus was
born in Nazareth?
Don (05:15):
There's, there's debates about the historicity of the
census and everything, but, uh,so.
Maybe?
Yeah, I mean, maybe.
Okay.
But it has nothing to do withwhether or not we should go to
church, so.
Tana (05:28):
Right.
Okay, so you're making adistinction between church and
temple.
Don (05:33):
And actually I'm more so making a distinction between
temple and synagogue.
Tana (05:37):
Right.
Don (05:38):
And that the church is more equivalent to the synagogue than
it is to the temple.
We read things in the, in theText that has, that mentions
like the house of God, and Ihate to break it to folks, but
your church is not the house ofGod.
Your church is the equivalent ofa synagogue, which was the local
(06:00):
gathering place for worship.
Tana (06:03):
Okay.
Don (06:03):
Right.
So there's just a significantdifference.
One is God's house and one isthe place in which God's people
come together regularly in orderto care for one another, care
for the community, make surepeople have what they need, uh,
learn more about God and they dothat regularly.
Um, so the church or thesynagogue in first century was
(06:26):
more like a community center, asafe place for people to come,
particularly under Romanoppression, it, it had very
little to do...
there was no worship band.
Uh, there were no plastic plantson the front stage, uh,
Tana (06:40):
or American flags?
Don (06:41):
Definitely no American flags.
So, so what we have now is.
would be, it's anachronistic toimagine that something even
remotely similar to that existedat the time of Jesus.
Tana (07:00):
Okay.
So, and I don't know if you, um,if you know the answer to this
or not, but would that kind ofhow you're describing synagogue
back then be what synagogue isnow for the Jewish people?
Don (07:14):
I wouldn't want to speak on that just because I don't know
how.
Uh, the Jewish community feelsabout synagogue, uh, and really
at the end of the day, the mainthing is, is really how you feel
about it, how it, what it, whatthe value is to you and your
community is what makessomething, the synagogue or the
(07:35):
church similar or different thanwhat was, uh, in Israel during
the time of Jesus.
Tana (07:43):
Okay.
Um, we're now where, I mean,it's, it's a really long journey
from the time of synagogues atthe time of Jesus to what church
looks like today.
Right.
So it's probably taking, takenso many different forms.
Don (08:01):
Yeah.
I mean, to say something thatscares, um, creationists, uh,
it, it's evolved, right?
Tana (08:09):
Right.
Right.
So do you know, and I realized,you know.
You're not necessarily ahistorian, you know, a lot of
church history, but do you knowwhen it kind of became what it
is now?
Don (08:24):
So I like to blame a lot of things on Constantine.
Yeah, me too.
And, and I think that it's agood, you know, it's a fulcrum
of time in the church that Ithink is significant in that
Augustine begins to, Or St.
Augustine, however you want topronounce it, um, begins a time,
(08:48):
a moment where everything hasbegun to shift and now those who
hold authority ofinterpretation, those who hold
authority of theology are notJews.
Mm, mm-hmm.
Okay.
For the, in the first time, anddon't get me wrong, there were
non-Jews, Gentiles, there weregentiles even early on that were
(09:12):
part of leadership.
Part of thinking about Jesus asMessiah, thinking about this,
the Messianic, uh, peace, but itwas predominantly Jews who had
become convinced that Jesus wasthe Messiah.
And so, The very beginning ofChristian was thoroughly Jewish
(09:34):
by the time Augustine comesaround, we start to see that
power dynamic shift that westart to see more and more of
the people that were theinterpreters.
We just talked recently, um,about the idea of having
authority, being able tointerpret this, the Text in new
ways.
I would argue that.
Somehow the church began to, uh,identify Gentiles as the ones
(09:59):
that had authority to give a newinterpretation of the Text.
Um, and had they followedtradition, that wouldn't have
happened, uh, at least not inthe way that it did.
And because of that, um, we seea shift of thinking.
We see a shift of leadership andwe see more and more the Jewish
(10:20):
leadership being pushed out asGentile leadership is brought
in.
And I would say that's when thechurch began to shift, right?
Because then they wanted tochange it from Saturday to
Sunday, because that was the daythat Jesus rose from the dead.
So we start celebrating,Christianity celebrates the
Lord's day on Sundays, asopposed to celebrating Sabbath.
(10:42):
Uh,
Tana (10:42):
which is Saturday,
Don (10:43):
Which is Saturday and well, Friday night into Saturday
evening.
And so we see that shift.
We start to see a shift of, um,bringing in more and more pagan,
uh, traditions.
And when I say that, I don'twant to make that sound like
it's a, like a terrible thing.
Like, Oh my gosh, all of asudden we've paganized
(11:04):
Christianity and there's beenwritings about that.
And it has good and bad, right?
The.
But what it is is different,right?
That's the main thing.
It's, it's different.
We've taken a right hand turnfrom where, uh, Judaism, Judaism
used the festivals and the feastto determine things.
But as more and more Gentilescome in, they start, instead of
following the Jewish calendar,they start following, what is
(11:26):
it, the Julian?
Yeah.
Uh, calendar.
And so now all of a sudden,instead of everything being
based on the cycles of the moon,it starts to be based on the
sun.
And we start to see that thecalendar shifts, and therefore,
Easter starts becomingcelebrated at a different time
than Passover.
Easter was the celebration ofPassover.
(11:47):
But then they slowly start to goapart.
Easter having eggs brought in,which are fertility symbols,
which fits with Gentilefertility ideas.
So we start to see all of thesepieces seep in.
And it makes sense because thosewere things that were meaningful
for generations in theirfamilies.
And so now as they have come tobelieve that Jesus is Messiah
(12:08):
and they start to see some ofthe story of Jesus in some of
the traditions that they held ofa new birth with a, with an egg,
right?
Like all these things weremeaningful and they were able to
connect it kind of like.
Paul, do you remember the scenein Acts where Paul says, I've
looked around your city and he'sin Athens and he's like, and I
can see your religious people.
(12:30):
And so he's actually, uh,complimenting them for their
ways of thinking about God andfaith, even though the gods that
they were worshiping was not theGod that Paul was, right?
So as Gentiles become more andmore influential in the church,
they start bringing more andmore of these pagan traditions
in and next thing you know.
(12:51):
And by next thing you know, Idon't know how many years,
probably hundreds of years,it's, it looks nothing like
first century synagogue.
And not only does it looknothing like it, but the reading
of scripture and theinterpretation of scripture
sounds nothing like what wasbeing read and interpreted in
the, uh, synagogue.
Tana (13:14):
So, and you're saying a lot of this got.
introduced around the time ofEmperor Constantine, right?
Cause he, uh, kind of forced aChristian ideology.
Don (13:27):
Yeah.
Constantine.
Augustine.
Uh, you know, these are, theseare major moments within
Christianity that causes hugeshifts.
And so between the two of them,and then you have Irenaeus, and
anti semitism is coming in, andso as it's more anti semitic,
uh, and Gentiles start toimagine that, uh, God had always
(13:53):
made, they were always thechosen people, the Gentiles were
always the chosen people, andthe Jews messed up, and they
failed and left God down, andnow the Gentiles have to come in
and clean up the mess, which isbasically what, uh,
supersessionism is, believes,that, uh, Gentiles are the true
church now or the Christianityis the true church now, uh, and
(14:13):
no longer the people of Israel.
And obviously that's notbiblical.
And that comes from, uh, somepeople in power having the
authority to dictate what is tobe believed, building it into
creeds.
And stuff that everyone saysevery single week, uh, in order
to remind them of theirallegiance.
(14:36):
Right.
So.
Tana (14:38):
Yeah.
You know, you, you mentionedauthority at one point, and that
is so, you know, I decided topoke around a little bit and see
what people were saying about,you know, do you need to go to
church?
And authority kept kind ofcoming back up as.
It's one of the, one of thereasons by, um, you know, by
(15:03):
places like the Gospel Coalitionand things, you know, things
like that who've writtenarticles about this, right?
And they, they refer to allthese different verses about
submitting to authority.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Don (15:18):
Yes, but can you narrow it down?
Tana (15:20):
Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to narrow down my
question because I'm trying tothink of...
Don (15:26):
You mean in, in sense of...
In the argument of for a church.
Tana (15:29):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
An argument of attending churchbecause it was like, um, You,
here's one of the, one of theverses that the Gospel
Coalition, uh, quoted wasHebrews 13: 17.
It says, Obey your leaders andsubmit to them for they keep
watch over your lives as peoplewho will have to render an
(15:52):
account.
So make it a task of joy forthem, not one of groaning for
that is of no advantage to you.
But they were using that as anexample of like the Bible saying
like, Oh, you have to go andsubmit to these leaders.
Don (16:09):
Right.
Tana (16:10):
So, does that seem to you to be a command that
Don (16:22):
It has nothing to do with church.
Tana (16:23):
That's, I guess that's what I'm asking.
Don (16:24):
It's just, it's just, to apply that to church is absurd.
Tana (16:28):
There's, there's a lot of verses that they went to, which
a lot of them were just aboutfellowship, which I was like,
well, that's, that can take lotsof different forms.
It's not saying like, oh, andyou must, you know, have coffee
in the lobby and like, you knowwhat I mean?
Like it wasn't, it doesn't seemto be.
Um, talking about church, butthe, there are lots of ones
about like submitting to aleader and listening to
(16:49):
teaching.
And that was the, that was theonly one where I thought maybe
they had some sort of, uh, goodpoint they might be making was
like, Oh, you should submit tosome kind of authority.
Even though for me, I'm like,eh.
Don (17:04):
So in the time of Jesus, there were two major schools,
Hillel and Shammai, right?
Jesus falls into the school ofHillel.
Um, almost completely, just veryminor differences.
Uh, the school of Shammai, verydifferent from Jesus.
Hillel becomes the catalyst forthe rabbinic movement.
So Hillel's teachings survive.
(17:27):
Shammai, uh, is teaching kind ofgo away.
Uh, still influential, stillimportant in Jewish tradition
and Jewish study of the text.
They still, uh, They stilladhere or listen to the voice of
Shammai, though they would,again, I would argue that most
of Judaism today, uh, RabbinicJudaism, would, would more
(17:50):
closely identify with Hillel.
And that's, that's somewhat of aguess because, again, as I
always say, I'm not an expert onmodern Judaism.
So in that day, when the book ofHebrew was being written, there
were more than one school ofthought.
So for, who is your teacher?
(18:12):
Well, whoever you have submittedto, to be your teacher, you
should listen to them.
You should go to them and seekcounsel.
Right?
This, to make this about youneed to attend your local
church, that, that may be thecase if you have made the local
(18:33):
pastor your teacher.
And you recognize them as beingthe person who teaches the text
in a way that resonates withyour soul.
And this is where Christianityreally gets it wrong, in my
opinion, is that we're moreabout come to my church and
conform to my theology than weare.
(18:56):
More likely than, we're morelikely to tell people to come to
our church and conform to thetheology of that church than
what we are to say, you need togo and find a church that
resonates with yourunderstanding of God.
Tana (19:08):
Oh, I think that would be, that would be horrifying to a
lot of people.
Don (19:13):
The Gospel Coalition being one, right?
Tana (19:14):
Yeah, well because it's, it's, it's, I, I can understand
how what they would hear is, Oh,go find somebody who just
confirms everything you alreadybelieve.
Don (19:22):
Correct, and, and I would argue, Um, that there is some
dangerous, too strong a word inmy opinion, but there is some
concern there, right?
It's easy to go to a place thatdoesn't challenge you and just
tells you or soothes your needs.
But to assume that that's wrongis wrongheadedness.
(19:43):
So one of my favorite, uh,rabbinic kind of quotes is that
there were 100, 000 Jews andtherefore 100, 000
interpretations of scripture.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that that's lost inparticularly Western
Christendom.
And then the more conservativeyou get, even more so lost.
Like there's only oneinterpretation.
There's not 100, 000, even ifthere's 100, 000 people.
(20:05):
There's 2 million people.
There's not 100, 000.
Interpretations.
There is one interpretation ofthe text, and you just happen to
be lucky enough to walk into mychurch where I'm the one giving
it.
We have the right one.
And, and so this is counter tothe time of Jesus.
The time of Jesus was you founda rabbi or a teacher that you
(20:29):
connected with, and then youfollowed them.
The closest thing that we havetoday.
Um, to kind of that, I shouldn'tsay closest.
One of the things that comes tomind as a close, uh, within
close proximity is our fandom ofsports teams or even just an
athlete.
That's funny.
Is that Jesus was like a Jordan,right?
(20:52):
Not the Jordan, like crossing itand being dunked in it, but
Jesus dunked in the Jordan.
I feel like there's all kinds ofjokes there.
Anyhow, bad ones, clearly.
But.
But Jesus would have been morelike, you know, kids would have
their, their local heroes wouldhave been this man from Galilee,
(21:15):
right?
Like, imagine this, you're achild and you hear stories of
this man from Galilee that grewup, that, It gathers masses of
people together to tell themtheir worth and their beauty and
give them hope against, uh,empire.
And not only did they give himhope, but he fed them.
Like 5, 000 people he fed.
And then some people swear theysaw him walk across the water
(21:38):
afterwards.
Right?
You as a child hearing thesestories of these rabbis, and
Jesus was not the only teacherof his day that was associated
with miracle working.
You have Honi the circle drawer,you have several of these
amazing stories and thesecharacters of these teachers who
(21:59):
did these miracles and did theseimpossible things.
All in the name of caring forthe Israelites and giving them
hope against the emperor.
Right?
And so these kids looked up tothem, much like I imagine that
during the civil rightsmovement, uh, that there were,
there were children that lookedup to MLK and Malcolm X and
(22:21):
wanted to emulate them when theygot older because they could see
what they were doing to bringabout change and they were
giving hope.
We don't have that today.
I think there's some celebritypastors, but the celebrity
pastor now is about consumingthem as opposed to emulating
(22:43):
them.
Interesting.
Right?
Like, we want a Rob Bell so wecan consume all of his teachings
and regurgitate them at aChristian party and sound like
we know what we're talkingabout.
Because then people will thinkwe're, we're insightful.
Right.
Not, I want to be like Rob Bell.
I want to live my life in thesame way that he does and I want
(23:03):
to treat my family in the sameway, right?
There was these...
These traditions that rabbiswould have to chase away the
disciples because they wouldlike hide under his bed, uh, to
hear how he treated his spouseat night.
And you can take that anydirection you want that, that he
would, they would want to seehow he, uh, Um, cleaned up after
(23:26):
using the bathroom, like therewasn't an aspect now, I think
some of that's exaggeratedtradition, right?
To say there wasn't an aspect ofthe life of the teacher that
these young people weren'twanting to emulate.
We just don't have that anymore.
Yeah.
And, and rightfully so in thesense that we no longer, I
(23:46):
think, have very many peoplethat are in the pulpit that are
worthy of that level ofattention.
Mm.
Right?
Because the people in the pulpittend to be better at
articulating their beliefs thanliving them.
Tana (24:01):
Oof.
Don (24:03):
Me included.
Tana (24:06):
Yeah, I suppose that's difficult for anybody.
Don (24:10):
Of course.
Tana (24:11):
Yeah.
Um, there's a lot I'm trying tosift through in response to
everything you just said.
I think...
Um, one of the, one of thequestions about that comes, I
(24:32):
guess, I don't know if it comesbefore or after this question of
like, do we need church?
Sorry, this is going to feel alittle bit like a right hand
turn.
Um, is why do Christians leaveto begin with?
And the reason that popped intomy head, actually, it was
because of what you said abouthow there's a lot of pastors who
(24:54):
preach one way and like live adifferent way.
Right.
And for, I think there's a, asort of more quote unquote,
minor.
way of looking at that as like,Oh, I'm trying to, I'm
constantly trying to be thisperson.
Right.
And I'm constantly coming upshort.
Um, which feels a little bitmore like sincere and, uh, you
(25:15):
know, um, just fallible humankind of thing.
And then there's the justhypocrites, right?
The people who are talking aboutsexual immorality.
And then you find out after 20years of, um, service that
they've been abusing childrenthis whole time, you know, or
whatever.
Um, and I think that's a lot ofwhat's driving people away from
(25:38):
the church, right?
Is the hypocrisy.
Don (25:40):
I think that's the, how do I want to say it?
Because, you know, I thinkyou're right.
But I also think that that'skind of the excuse to leave the
church, right?
Like it doesn't feel good foryour church to be in a healthy
place and your church to begoing well.
And you just go,"I just don'tfeel like coming anymore."
Tana (26:01):
Right.
Don (26:02):
Even though a lot of people feel that way and they're like
dreading getting up on Sundaymorning, they're dreading if
they have children, getting kidsready and getting them off to
church and.
So when a scandal comes up, it'slike, all right, I'm just
breaking ties with this.
Tana (26:18):
Yeah.
Don (26:18):
And it becomes a, this is a good, I now feel like I have a
legitimate reason to leave.
And I want to tell the listener.
You making a decision to leaveis actually a legitimate enough
reason to leave.
You don't, like, you don't oweanything to anyone.
Uh, so you don't have to waitfor a scandal.
(26:40):
You don't have to wait foranother problematic headline to
make that decision.
Uh, it is enough of a, it isenough for you to say, I'm not,
I just don't want to do thisanymore.
Tana (26:54):
So, uh, I was recently looking at polls on church
attendance.
Well, what the poll actually waswas on church membership, which
I'm not sure how that translatesto church attendance.
Don (27:08):
It's probably better.
Tana (27:09):
I I know I...
wait, which way?
There
Don (27:12):
are more people that are members of church than attend
church.
Tana (27:15):
See, I was wondering which way it would go.
Cause at first I thought that,but then I thought about how I
think there are more and morepeople who are like, why do I
need to be a member of thischurch?
Don (27:24):
It may have shifted.
I know that in the early 2000s,at least it was membership was
often higher than attendance.
Like you had like 250, 300people in your membership roll
and you had about a hundredpeople that showed up a week.
Tana (27:36):
I would totally agree.
And I think that.
But I, I suspect that at somepoint it flipped because younger
people are like, why do I needto be a member?
I'm just going to show up when Iwant to, you know?
Don (27:48):
Yeah, but churches also don't clear their member rolls
so.
Tana (27:51):
That's fair.
Yeah, so who knows?
Anyway, um, a Gallup poll in2020 found that 47% of U.
S.
adults claim membership in achurch, synagogue, or mosque,
which is down more than 20points since 2000.
Don (28:10):
Yeah, listen, when the problem, it's, it's interesting
to me because I think that thequestion, do we need church is
the right question, but I thinkwe think of it in the wrong way.
Tana (28:27):
Okay.
Don (28:28):
That's the question that the church should be asking,
right, right.
And the church should be askingthat.
And then saying, what should webe doing as a church to make a
church feel like a necessary orimportant part of our
(28:49):
community's life?
Tana (28:51):
Yes.
And I want to explore thatquestion.
And I was thinking a verysimilar thing because, so what I
did was I looked up thesestatistics because I was curious
about like church attendance,right?
Yeah.
Um, So then I, I decided to lookup, why do Christians leave the
(29:11):
church and It's interestingbecause most of my, the
immediate search results I foundwere from pastors talking about
why they think people areleaving the church.
Don (29:23):
Yes.
Tana (29:24):
Okay, so it was very
Don (29:25):
That's like having Gordon Ramsay come to your restaurant
and him say, why do you thinkpeople aren't coming to your
restaurant?
And you go, I know the food'sgood, the service is great, and
the decor looks amazing.
Because they're idiots.
Tana (29:37):
"They just can't appreciate our style."
Don (29:39):
They're idiots, Gordon Ramsay, and Gordon Ramsay, like,
spits out your food, uh, andwipes grease off your walls, and
yeah.
Tana (29:47):
Yeah, and so there was a lot of, like, I, so I actually
watched snippets of, like,YouTube videos from different
pastors, like, you know, sayingwhy.
And it's like, oh, people wantto live a worldly life and leave
morals behind.
Um, some blamed the fancier, um,megachurch.
(30:07):
Like a megachurch kind of thingwhere it's like, Oh, it's too
flashy.
And so then they get bored ofthat or something.
It was a weird argument.
Don (30:15):
A real quick question before you finish that list.
Do you think I have a futuredoing a Gordon Ramsey TV show of
like, Hi.
Church Hell, or ChurchNightmare.
Tana (30:27):
No, no.
Don (30:29):
I could definitely speak in a British accent and curse
people out at churches.
Tana (30:32):
Well, I mean, yeah, uh, I just think they would, they
wouldn't ask you.
Don (30:37):
That's fair.
Alright.
Tana (30:39):
The ones that need the help.
Don (30:40):
Fine, just, just continue with your list.
Tana (30:43):
So, anyway.
Don (30:45):
Shooting down my dreams and aspirations.
Tana (30:46):
Yeah, that's, that's why I'm here, honey.
Um, a lot of them blamed collegeprofessors.
Because once the kids grow up inthe church and then they go off
to college and those darnliberal college professors ruin.
And, and a lot of them werelike, I would suggest that if
you're, if they're leaving achurch, they were never a
Christian to begin with.
So there's that no true Scotsmankind of thing.
(31:09):
Um, but what was reallyinteresting to me was, That, um,
well, by interesting, I meanabhorrent, was that there were
several pastors who said, statedthat church hurt is no excuse to
stop going to church.
Don (31:28):
I mean, they're the ones hurting people.
So it's asked, like asking anabusive spouse that question,
right?
Tana (31:35):
That's fair.
Yeah.
Don (31:39):
So the main, the main thing with all of these is that.
Um, it's not actually dealingwith ourself, right?
Like the church, like I'mspeaking about this from like
the perspective of the churchwrestling with this.
The church isn't dealing withwhat is it that gets a family up
(32:03):
on a Sunday morning and makesthem want to go through all the
effort and energy on a day offto gather the kids, put them
together in a vehicle, and thenhead someplace.
Tana (32:16):
Well, I think that's kind of what the megachurch was
trying to answer.
Don (32:20):
And so what happens is, people like, that start
megachurches, They, they say,oh, it's to take the kids to the
park.
Or it's to take the kids to theamusement, uh, facility or to
take them to be entertained.
And so they turn theirchildren's area into
entertainment.
Tana (32:39):
Oh, okay.
Don (32:41):
And so, but what they're doing is they're answering it
wrong.
That isn't what gets a family upon a day off to go entertain the
kids, it's to go make memorieswith your children.
It's to go do something that youdon't get to experience very
(33:02):
often.
It's to, um, get the opportunityto see the look of excitement
and fun on your child's faces.
They're attempting a new ride orexperiencing something new in
nature, right?
None of which we do at churchbecause the kids get ushered off
to the playground.
And then the parents get, uh, inthe cattle chute that leads them
into the sanctuary.
Tana (33:24):
Mm hmm.
Don (33:24):
And so, at first, it feels like, to the family, oh my gosh,
this is what we've been missingbecause the kids are excited to
get up and go to church and, youknow, it's wonderful and blah,
blah, blah.
But then, the reason that themegachurch probably has the
biggest revolving door of anychurches is because that isn't
(33:47):
actually what it is that's atthe heart of people getting up
on a Sunday morning.
Now, I want to be carefulbecause some people it is.
And again, I think themegachurch can be an effective
thing for a lot of people.
And it can be meaningful and ithas brought life and faith and
hope to a lot of people.
(34:08):
And...
But, and at least they werewilling to ask the question and
make drastic changes to try toaddress the problem.
Whereas you get into more older,traditional churches who are
just like"the kids these daysjust don't, don't, you know,
they're upset because the pewsare hard," right?
(34:29):
"Like they just don't know whatit's like to sit with a crooked
spine in a, in a pinewood box."Right.
So like there's, there's all ofthese things that at least the
mega church was attempting toaddress it, but I think they
were attempting it, notrealizing that really what
drives most people to want to goand do something is how it makes
(34:54):
them feel, which I think thechurch can get that at some
points, what impact they have onthe community, right?
And what it means for the restof their life.
Yeah.
Right.
And here's the problem.
I don't think the church doesvery good at those things.
Tana (35:14):
Yeah.
Don (35:15):
I don't think that the church does a good job of
creating an atmosphere in whichpeople feel feel like this is
significant and what I'mparticipating in is significant
and that my participation herebetters my community, because I
(35:38):
think most people think, yeah,it might be good for me to hear
a sermon, but they don't thinkme being present.
With a bunch of other peoplefrom my neighborhood in my
community is a value and this iswhere again I think the church
is really taking a shift fromyou having the neighborhood
churches that were right in theneighborhood.
Now we have destination churcheswhere you drive across the city
(36:00):
you drive into another town toattend a church or you just go
online and you you watch or you?
Participate from another part ofthe world even right and since
there's no longer theseneighborhood settings.
Getting together with all ofyour neighbors...
like, people love block parties.
Yeah.
Right?
They love block parties.
(36:20):
They love community yard sales.
They love things like that.
Uh, our, our neighborhood, uh,just did a 4th of July event,
right?
There's, there's these thingsthat bring a neighborhood
together.
And then it's great.
You're like, Oh, I met a wholebunch of my neighbors.
And I found I have a lot ofcommon with so and so.
That is what.
I think the church used tooffer, and I would argue what
(36:41):
the ancient synagogue mostdefinitely offered was it was a
hub for the community to comeinto.
It was the local barber shoptype thing.
It was the local like wateringhole, whatever you want to call
it, right?
And, but the church is no longerthat.
And because it's no longer that,then we have to say, what is the
(37:04):
point of the church?
And what would you say it is?
And I'm talking about churchesin the local church, not
churches in the concept of theecclesia of people.
But instead, what, what is thepurpose of the local church?
Tana (37:23):
You mean like what should it be?
Sure.
Don (37:28):
You know...
I don't think most of us cananswer the question fully.
I, I think it's...
Tana (37:33):
Yeah, well I think there's different, people would answer
it differently.
I think some people would belike, well, that's where you go
and you learn about God.
Like that would be like theirsort of transactional, I go
there and the pastor teaches me.
Don (37:43):
And I think that's what a lot of pastors, particularly the
ones that filled out the pollyou were referencing, think.
Tana (37:48):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, you're here to learnfrom me.
Don (37:50):
Right.
Our pastors are not communityorganizers.
Tana (37:53):
No.
And that's actually a really,really interesting way to put
that, I think.
I agree, you said earlier thatchurches aren't very good always
at taking care of the communityaround them and being a part of
the community around them.
Don (38:08):
We're actually probably better at caring for
international communities thanwe are for our own.
Tana (38:12):
That is probably true.
And it makes me think about, sodo you remember when, I don't
know if it's still a big thing,but like Acts 2 churches were
like a big thing?
Yes.
Okay.
So, do you mind if I actuallyread the portion of Acts 2 that
they're usually referring to?
Don (38:28):
Yes.
Tana (38:29):
You mind?
Don (38:30):
Yes.
No.
I was just checking myauthority.
Tana (38:38):
So Acts 2 42 to 47, the version I have in front of me is
NIV.
"They devoted themselves to theApostles teaching and to
fellowship, to the breaking ofbread and to prayer.
Everyone was filled with awe atthe many wonders and signs
performed by the Apostles.
All the believers were togetherand had everything in common.
They sold property andpossessions to give to anyone
(39:01):
who had need.
Every day they continued to meettogether in the temple courts.
They broke bread in their homesand ate together with glad and
sincere hearts, praising God andenjoying the favor of all the
people.
And the Lord added to theirnumber daily those who were
being saved." So I read that.
Um, and I feel like the, thesort of, uh, Acts Two church
(39:26):
network thing overly simplifiedthat to make sure you're at
church on Sunday and go to smallgroups.
Don (39:34):
And I think there was a hope, like missional became
popular.
Tana (39:39):
Yeah, missional.
But there's so many parts ofthat that I can see people 100%
objecting to (39:45):
selling their property and possessions?
Don (39:48):
Oh, they won't even object to it.
They just would pretend like itwasn't in there.
Tana (39:51):
And it says every day they continue to meet together, you
know, like it's just it'sinteresting to me that that was
pushed so much as like the versewhen it's not really But but
anyway, my point more so is thatthere's that and there's all
these other Um, passages that,you know, some of these people
(40:13):
were pointing to and sayinglike, well, this tells you, you
should go to church, but it'smore so about being in
fellowship with one another andconstant commands to take care
of other people in thecommunity.
Don (40:22):
Well, the church has, has shifted to a mindset of what do
we, what must we believe inorder to be saved as opposed to
how shall we live in order tobring about salvation.
Tana (40:37):
Hmm.
Don (40:38):
And because of that.
The church is a place that we goto get our checklist as opposed
to going to get, uh, the needslist, right?
Like in, in early days, and Ithink this probably still
happens in some churches, right?
I don't, I don't want this tosound like I think all church
(40:59):
have gotten this wrong.
I just think a lot of churcheshave.
And, uh, a lot of our listenerswho are frustrated with church,
frustrated with Christianity,but still feel some, some like
connectedness to God or Jesus,um, wrestling with this.
I think that a lot of churcheshave become a space in which we
(41:20):
go to become assured of our ownspiritual salvation and what
we're really called, whatchurches really should be about.
is a gathering of the communityto ensure the salvation of our
neighbors.
And by salvation, I mean safetyand security, the eliminating of
(41:43):
chaos and making sure thateveryone had something to eat,
that everyone had clothes, thateveryone had all their needs
covered.
And, you know, we've been inchurch experiences that have
attempted to do that.
And that is so counter to theway that the world functions and
thinks, that that actually burntour people out, because it felt
(42:06):
overwhelming to always beaddressing the needs of the
community, and because we don'thave stamina for that.
We only have stamina to do afundraiser to uh, build a church
or build an orphanage inVenezuela, uh, and we're going
(42:26):
to do that.
We're going to spend threemonths on it.
We're going to send six peopleto go handle it.
And that's the stamina thatwe've created for caring for the
needs of the community.
And by having a faith communitythat is constantly, perpetually,
um, bringing the needs forward.
Um, and not hiding them, butinstead, uh, bringing visibility
(42:50):
to them.
We don't, we don't have themechanisms right now for people
for that to be sustainable forvery long.
Because no one's thinking aboutwhat you read for Acts 2.
To sell your goods or to sellyour properties in order to make
sure that everyone has, right?
(43:11):
That's pretty consistentthroughout the Bible.
Tana (43:13):
Yeah.
Don (43:14):
And it's not like that's a brand new concept that was just
come up with.
Tana (43:18):
Right.
Don (43:19):
Um, and so, but for us, that would be a bridge too far
to even imagine something likethat.
Tana (43:29):
Yeah.
You know...
so Okay, sorry.
I have a bunch of differentthoughts going through my head.
I'm trying to wrangle one ofthem into a question So you
you've said that it's notBiblically like you must go to
(43:51):
church on Sunday as a Christianlike that kind of thing.
What do you think about the needfor like Oh my gosh, I'm having
such a hard time forming thisinto a question.
Not like, should Christians goto church?
(44:13):
Like, but more so like, Um, Iguess what, what to you are the
benefits?
Don (44:19):
So I want to be clear.
I never said that Christiansshouldn't go to church.
Tana (44:22):
Right.
Don (44:22):
Now, I want to clarify this further.
Sure.
Yeah.
The question is, do we need thechurch?
Right.
And the answer is, desperately.
We need the church.
We just don't need the churchthat we currently have.
Tana (44:35):
Okay, so let me ask the question differently then.
What should the church be?
Don (44:41):
I, I think we talked about the church should be a space in
which the community comestogether to ensure that everyone
there has their needs met.
And those needs are physical,emotional, spiritual, that we,
um, we put people in leadership.
(45:04):
Who are teaching us how to bebetter humans, not just for our
own health and well being, butfor the health and well being of
our household, and the healthand the well being of our
neighbors, and the health andwell being of our full
community.
Yeah.
Instead, what we have arebuildings in which we attend in
(45:28):
order to be reminded of how wefall short and, um, how we
desperately need Jesus.
And in some ways, oftentimes,left, leave, feeling like
there's, that we can't doanything.
(45:49):
We're worthless and so we can'tdo anything to bring about
healing and healthiness in ourcommunity.
And we leave more desperate thanwe arrived.
And the church should be abeacon of hope.
That encourages people thatthere is a tomorrow that can
look different than today andthat tomorrow can be one that is
(46:12):
good and beautiful andmeaningful and you can come
along and be a part of that.
And right now, if you're tiredand hurting and need and in
need, sit, relax, right?
And let us care for you.
And then when you're strongenough, join us.
In bringing about the change inthe community that Jesus spoke
(46:35):
about.
Tana (46:37):
So this might be too heavy a question for so late in the
podcast, but do you think...
Let me kind of frame this alittle bit.
In my research on why do we needthe church, or why, actually it
was more so, why shouldChristians go to church?
Um, several pastors were like,you can't do good works unless
(46:57):
you're with other Christians,which is...
It's absurd.
Don (47:00):
Liar.
Tana (47:00):
Yeah.
Uh, so do you think, like whatyou're describing, does it need
to be a church?
Does it need to be Christian?
Don (47:08):
So here's, here's the thing.
I think what we've seen fromthose people who have begun
their deconstruction process orwho are leaving the church in
droves is because they'rereplacing it with the things
that are closer to that.
Tana (47:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (47:25):
Even if it's brunch with friends.
Right.
Brunch with friends feels closerto what I described than a lot
of churches.
Um, a lot of people go andvolunteer or go and participate
in other spaces and maybe not onSunday morning, but the time
that they regain on Sundaymorning gives them time and
energy other times in their weekto go and give back.
(47:47):
So many people I know that haveleft the church are some of the
kindest, most generous people intheir community.
So what they're doing is theyactually are.
Desire that agape that that lovethat communal love they desire
it so much The church isn'tdoing it.
Tana (48:04):
Mm hmm,
Don (48:05):
and they walk away from the church to go find a way to do it
elsewhere
Tana (48:09):
Yeah,
Don (48:10):
so Should people go to church?
I mean that's for each person tofigure out on their own Could
the church do a better job?
And instead of doing, you know,uh, seminars on how to attract
people through, you know,whatever, they would instead
(48:33):
start, um, benefiting thecommunity.
Tana (48:36):
Yeah.
Don (48:36):
And start becoming a, a place of hope.
Uh, not just in a spiritualsense, but in a physical,
emotional, uh, sense as well.
And if we did those things, thenwe wouldn't have to ask the
question, uh, should, do we haveto go to church or do we need
church?
We need community.
Tana (48:58):
Yes.
Don (48:59):
And believe me, there's exceptions to the rules of
monks, I think, about, right?
Who don't necessarily needcommunity.
Tana (49:04):
Well, aren't they in community with one another?
Don (49:06):
Not necessarily.
Tana (49:07):
Oh.
Don (49:07):
Uh, and so, there, we do have a sense of community
overall as a, we're a communalcreature.
Tana (49:14):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Don (49:16):
Do I think that the rush to leave the church has, feels good
initially and then leaves a holefor people?
Yeah, I do.
And I think it's sad.
Because it didn't have to bethat way.
But if the church wants it to benecessary, then the church needs
to change.
Tana (49:37):
You know, I think about everything you're saying, I'm
thinking back to the Acts 2 partwhere, It's saying, you know,
uh, they sold property andpossessions to give to anyone
who hasn't had need.
And there's constant, there's somany verses about helping the
poor and stuff, right?
But then a lot of church leaderswill focus on the man does not
(49:58):
live by bread alone.
Don (49:59):
Of course.
Tana (49:59):
But by the very word of God.
And it's almost like those fewverses here and there about
Jesus saying something to thateffect, like negate all the
need, even though Jesus went outand provided for people's needs.
Don (50:13):
I think if our church budget reflected the teachings
of Jesus.
Tana (50:17):
Right.
Don (50:18):
The church would be a lot more relevant.
Tana (50:20):
Yeah.
And it seems like we need more,the church is so focused on
quote unquote, correct doctrine,that it's not focusing enough on
actually doing what the wordssay.
Don (50:36):
And so quick, if you made it this far, and what I'm saying
is irritating the shit out ofyou because you attend a church
that you love and brings life toyou.
Then I wasn't talking about yourchurch.
And we don't have to not allchurch hashtag this.
Right?
That there are churches that aredoing good and right and
(50:58):
beautiful things, which is why Ithink Christianity will continue
in this world.
But I also think that, you know,this is a time of, uh, mass
quitting of jobs.
The great, what is that called?
Tana (51:12):
The great resignation.
Don (51:14):
The great resignation.
That's, that's true of spaces inwhich people recognize that the
value they bring to the table isnot returned to them.
Tana (51:26):
Yeah.
Don (51:27):
And the church is getting its comeuppance right now for
the same reasons.
Tana (51:32):
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (51:34):
And so if your church is not like that, then let us know
what church you go to and tellus about it.
Um, we'd love to hear and that'samazing.
And you should do the, do thework to get the word out in your
community that this is a placethat brings life and health and
beauty, not just lectures.
Tana (51:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a good place tostop.
Don (51:55):
Yep.
So we need the church.
Tana (51:57):
Okay, yes, so, and yeah, that's the final answer on the
question.
The final answer is,
Don (52:01):
and I'm not calling a friend, I'm not calling a
friend,
Tana (52:04):
uh, we need the church.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, um, thank you for joiningus today.
If you want to drop us a line orcheck anything else out about
us, you can do that atajffpodcast.
com.
If you want to support us, youcan go to buymeacoffee.
com slash ajff and you know,leave us a little tip or you can
do monthly supporting and uh,otherwise we will just see you
(52:27):
next time.
Bye.
Bye.
do we need church is the right question, but I think we
(00:04):
think of it in the wrong way.
Tana (00:06):
Okay.
Don (00:07):
That's the question that the church should be asking,
right, right.
And the church should be askingthat.
And then saying, what should webe doing as a church to make a
church feel like a necessary orimportant part of our
(00:28):
community's life?
Tana (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith
Podcast.
I am one of the co hosts on yourjourney today, Tana Schiewer and
I'm here with my other co host,Don Schiewer hey,
Don (00:45):
you'd think into season three, Tana that, um, the intro
part would be,
Tana (00:51):
it is, it never gets easier.
I feel awkward every singletime.
Don (00:55):
It doesn't show.
It doesn't show.
Tana (00:57):
I'm sure.
I'm, I'm just an old pro at thisnow.
And, uh, Sarah is still onbreak.
So, um, hi Sarah.
We miss you anyway.
Um, so today we're going to talkabout church.
Don (01:11):
Take me to church.
Tana (01:14):
Well, actually we're talking about sort of the
opposite, aren't we?
Do we need church?
Don (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I guess the the conversation is you know yet
to be determined But yeah, weare we are gonna have to have a
I think that's where a lot ofpeople are right now.
There's a lot of folks who intheir deconstruction process
have left the church that theyhad been attending and now are
(01:40):
either they would say, it's kindof nice just having my Sundays
Tana (01:44):
right.
Yeah.
Don (01:45):
And so I don't know that I want to go to church again, or
the, the, the fear, the effortto actually, um, find a church
is overwhelming.
And then on top of all that, isit even something that is
necessary and or beneficial tomy household?
Tana (02:06):
Well, and I think a lot of people are also, um, there's a
lot of people who are recoveringfrom church hurt, so it is, you
know, whether they, uh, wereexplicitly told they weren't
welcome at the church or, um, ona more extreme end, end, uh,
experienced abuse in the churchor just, you know, people were
(02:29):
kind of mean or what, you know,a really large range of hurt and
or trauma that can come from achurch context.
And so I think some people arelike, why, why do I need it?
Why do I need to be in thatenvironment?
Right.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Um, do we need church Don?
Don (02:52):
That's, that's just, that's the question.
That's where we're jumping in?
Tana (02:56):
I mean, we don't have to start there.
I mean, I think that's the, the,the subject we wanted to discuss
today.
I think, um, I guess maybe agood place to start would be, is
there a biblical imperative togo to church?
Don (03:18):
No, but there is to go to the temple.
Tana (03:21):
Okay, can you please elaborate?
Don (03:24):
The, the text, one of the things that we make a mistake
with is conflating the templewith the church.
The synagogue would have been,uh, the, the ancient comparison
to the church, not the temple.
So there's, so there's all kindsof passages that talks about,
(03:46):
uh, going up to the temple fordifferent feasts and for
different holidays.
But even attending the templewas only a few times a year
during the Ascension feasts.
And so even then...
Built into the biblical calendaris almost the see and ear
effect, except it wasn'tChristmas and Easter.
(04:06):
It was like Passover and, uh,the high holy days of Rosh
Hashanah.
Those types of holidays were thedays that you would, regardless
of where you were in the world,and then obviously at that time
the world was a much smallerplace, at least to Israel.
Sure.
You would drop what you weredoing and you would go to the
(04:29):
temple.
And so you would have theselarge masses of people moving
from the Diaspora, which is thedisplacement or the distribution
of the Jews into the differentareas around the world.
And you would have all of theDiaspora returning to Jerusalem
to go up to the Temple.
And so we see that, uh, in fact,that's when a census was
(04:51):
typically held was during thattime because it would, this is
when people were returning toland that they owned or back to,
you know, family, maybe theywere out, you know, whatever it
might be, the reasons thatthey're part of the diaspora,
people returning back.
Tana (05:06):
And isn't that, uh, part of the story of why Jesus was
born in Nazareth?
Don (05:15):
There's, there's debates about the historicity of the
census and everything, but, uh,so.
Maybe?
Yeah, I mean, maybe.
Okay.
But it has nothing to do withwhether or not we should go to
church, so.
Tana (05:28):
Right.
Okay, so you're making adistinction between church and
temple.
Don (05:33):
And actually I'm more so making a distinction between
temple and synagogue.
Tana (05:37):
Right.
Don (05:38):
And that the church is more equivalent to the synagogue than
it is to the temple.
We read things in the, in theText that has, that mentions
like the house of God, and Ihate to break it to folks, but
your church is not the house ofGod.
Your church is the equivalent ofa synagogue, which was the local
(06:00):
gathering place for worship.
Tana (06:03):
Okay.
Don (06:03):
Right.
So there's just a significantdifference.
One is God's house and one isthe place in which God's people
come together regularly in orderto care for one another, care
for the community, make surepeople have what they need, uh,
learn more about God and they dothat regularly.
Um, so the church or thesynagogue in first century was
(06:26):
more like a community center, asafe place for people to come,
particularly under Romanoppression, it, it had very
little to do...
there was no worship band.
Uh, there were no plastic plantson the front stage, uh,
Tana (06:40):
or American flags?
Don (06:41):
Definitely no American flags.
So, so what we have now is.
would be, it's anachronistic toimagine that something even
remotely similar to that existedat the time of Jesus.
Tana (07:00):
Okay.
So, and I don't know if you, um,if you know the answer to this
or not, but would that kind ofhow you're describing synagogue
back then be what synagogue isnow for the Jewish people?
Don (07:14):
I wouldn't want to speak on that just because I don't know
how.
Uh, the Jewish community feelsabout synagogue, uh, and really
at the end of the day, the mainthing is, is really how you feel
about it, how it, what it, whatthe value is to you and your
community is what makessomething, the synagogue or the
(07:35):
church similar or different thanwhat was, uh, in Israel during
the time of Jesus.
Tana (07:43):
Okay.
Um, we're now where, I mean,it's, it's a really long journey
from the time of synagogues atthe time of Jesus to what church
looks like today.
Right.
So it's probably taking, takenso many different forms.
Don (08:01):
Yeah.
I mean, to say something thatscares, um, creationists, uh,
it, it's evolved, right?
Tana (08:09):
Right.
Right.
So do you know, and I realized,you know.
You're not necessarily ahistorian, you know, a lot of
church history, but do you knowwhen it kind of became what it
is now?
Don (08:24):
So I like to blame a lot of things on Constantine.
Yeah, me too.
And, and I think that it's agood, you know, it's a fulcrum
of time in the church that Ithink is significant in that
Augustine begins to, Or St.
Augustine, however you want topronounce it, um, begins a time,
(08:48):
a moment where everything hasbegun to shift and now those who
hold authority ofinterpretation, those who hold
authority of theology are notJews.
Mm, mm-hmm.
Okay.
For the, in the first time, anddon't get me wrong, there were
non-Jews, Gentiles, there weregentiles even early on that were
(09:12):
part of leadership.
Part of thinking about Jesus asMessiah, thinking about this,
the Messianic, uh, peace, but itwas predominantly Jews who had
become convinced that Jesus wasthe Messiah.
And so, The very beginning ofChristian was thoroughly Jewish
(09:34):
by the time Augustine comesaround, we start to see that
power dynamic shift that westart to see more and more of
the people that were theinterpreters.
We just talked recently, um,about the idea of having
authority, being able tointerpret this, the Text in new
ways.
I would argue that.
Somehow the church began to, uh,identify Gentiles as the ones
(09:59):
that had authority to give a newinterpretation of the Text.
Um, and had they followedtradition, that wouldn't have
happened, uh, at least not inthe way that it did.
And because of that, um, we seea shift of thinking.
We see a shift of leadership andwe see more and more the Jewish
(10:20):
leadership being pushed out asGentile leadership is brought
in.
And I would say that's when thechurch began to shift, right?
Because then they wanted tochange it from Saturday to
Sunday, because that was the daythat Jesus rose from the dead.
So we start celebrating,Christianity celebrates the
Lord's day on Sundays, asopposed to celebrating Sabbath.
(10:42):
Uh,
Tana (10:42):
which is Saturday,
Don (10:43):
Which is Saturday and well, Friday night into Saturday
evening.
And so we see that shift.
We start to see a shift of, um,bringing in more and more pagan,
uh, traditions.
And when I say that, I don'twant to make that sound like
it's a, like a terrible thing.
Like, Oh my gosh, all of asudden we've paganized
(11:04):
Christianity and there's beenwritings about that.
And it has good and bad, right?
The.
But what it is is different,right?
That's the main thing.
It's, it's different.
We've taken a right hand turnfrom where, uh, Judaism, Judaism
used the festivals and the feastto determine things.
But as more and more Gentilescome in, they start, instead of
following the Jewish calendar,they start following, what is
(11:26):
it, the Julian?
Yeah.
Uh, calendar.
And so now all of a sudden,instead of everything being
based on the cycles of the moon,it starts to be based on the
sun.
And we start to see that thecalendar shifts, and therefore,
Easter starts becomingcelebrated at a different time
than Passover.
Easter was the celebration ofPassover.
(11:47):
But then they slowly start to goapart.
Easter having eggs brought in,which are fertility symbols,
which fits with Gentilefertility ideas.
So we start to see all of thesepieces seep in.
And it makes sense because thosewere things that were meaningful
for generations in theirfamilies.
And so now as they have come tobelieve that Jesus is Messiah
(12:08):
and they start to see some ofthe story of Jesus in some of
the traditions that they held ofa new birth with a, with an egg,
right?
Like all these things weremeaningful and they were able to
connect it kind of like.
Paul, do you remember the scenein Acts where Paul says, I've
looked around your city and he'sin Athens and he's like, and I
can see your religious people.
(12:30):
And so he's actually, uh,complimenting them for their
ways of thinking about God andfaith, even though the gods that
they were worshiping was not theGod that Paul was, right?
So as Gentiles become more andmore influential in the church,
they start bringing more andmore of these pagan traditions
in and next thing you know.
(12:51):
And by next thing you know, Idon't know how many years,
probably hundreds of years,it's, it looks nothing like
first century synagogue.
And not only does it looknothing like it, but the reading
of scripture and theinterpretation of scripture
sounds nothing like what wasbeing read and interpreted in
the, uh, synagogue.
Tana (13:14):
So, and you're saying a lot of this got.
introduced around the time ofEmperor Constantine, right?
Cause he, uh, kind of forced aChristian ideology.
Don (13:27):
Yeah.
Constantine.
Augustine.
Uh, you know, these are, theseare major moments within
Christianity that causes hugeshifts.
And so between the two of them,and then you have Irenaeus, and
anti semitism is coming in, andso as it's more anti semitic,
uh, and Gentiles start toimagine that, uh, God had always
(13:53):
made, they were always thechosen people, the Gentiles were
always the chosen people, andthe Jews messed up, and they
failed and left God down, andnow the Gentiles have to come in
and clean up the mess, which isbasically what, uh,
supersessionism is, believes,that, uh, Gentiles are the true
church now or the Christianityis the true church now, uh, and
(14:13):
no longer the people of Israel.
And obviously that's notbiblical.
And that comes from, uh, somepeople in power having the
authority to dictate what is tobe believed, building it into
creeds.
And stuff that everyone saysevery single week, uh, in order
to remind them of theirallegiance.
(14:36):
Right.
So.
Tana (14:38):
Yeah.
You know, you, you mentionedauthority at one point, and that
is so, you know, I decided topoke around a little bit and see
what people were saying about,you know, do you need to go to
church?
And authority kept kind ofcoming back up as.
It's one of the, one of thereasons by, um, you know, by
(15:03):
places like the Gospel Coalitionand things, you know, things
like that who've writtenarticles about this, right?
And they, they refer to allthese different verses about
submitting to authority.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Don (15:18):
Yes, but can you narrow it down?
Tana (15:20):
Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure out how to narrow down my
question because I'm trying tothink of...
Don (15:26):
You mean in, in sense of...
In the argument of for a church.
Tana (15:29):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
An argument of attending churchbecause it was like, um, You,
here's one of the, one of theverses that the Gospel
Coalition, uh, quoted wasHebrews 13: 17.
It says, Obey your leaders andsubmit to them for they keep
watch over your lives as peoplewho will have to render an
(15:52):
account.
So make it a task of joy forthem, not one of groaning for
that is of no advantage to you.
But they were using that as anexample of like the Bible saying
like, Oh, you have to go andsubmit to these leaders.
Don (16:09):
Right.
Tana (16:10):
So, does that seem to you to be a command that
Don (16:22):
It has nothing to do with church.
Tana (16:23):
That's, I guess that's what I'm asking.
Don (16:24):
It's just, it's just, to apply that to church is absurd.
Tana (16:28):
There's, there's a lot of verses that they went to, which
a lot of them were just aboutfellowship, which I was like,
well, that's, that can take lotsof different forms.
It's not saying like, oh, andyou must, you know, have coffee
in the lobby and like, you knowwhat I mean?
Like it wasn't, it doesn't seemto be.
Um, talking about church, butthe, there are lots of ones
about like submitting to aleader and listening to
(16:49):
teaching.
And that was the, that was theonly one where I thought maybe
they had some sort of, uh, goodpoint they might be making was
like, Oh, you should submit tosome kind of authority.
Even though for me, I'm like,eh.
Don (17:04):
So in the time of Jesus, there were two major schools,
Hillel and Shammai, right?
Jesus falls into the school ofHillel.
Um, almost completely, just veryminor differences.
Uh, the school of Shammai, verydifferent from Jesus.
Hillel becomes the catalyst forthe rabbinic movement.
So Hillel's teachings survive.
(17:27):
Shammai, uh, is teaching kind ofgo away.
Uh, still influential, stillimportant in Jewish tradition
and Jewish study of the text.
They still, uh, They stilladhere or listen to the voice of
Shammai, though they would,again, I would argue that most
of Judaism today, uh, RabbinicJudaism, would, would more
(17:50):
closely identify with Hillel.
And that's, that's somewhat of aguess because, again, as I
always say, I'm not an expert onmodern Judaism.
So in that day, when the book ofHebrew was being written, there
were more than one school ofthought.
So for, who is your teacher?
(18:12):
Well, whoever you have submittedto, to be your teacher, you
should listen to them.
You should go to them and seekcounsel.
Right?
This, to make this about youneed to attend your local
church, that, that may be thecase if you have made the local
(18:33):
pastor your teacher.
And you recognize them as beingthe person who teaches the text
in a way that resonates withyour soul.
And this is where Christianityreally gets it wrong, in my
opinion, is that we're moreabout come to my church and
conform to my theology than weare.
(18:56):
More likely than, we're morelikely to tell people to come to
our church and conform to thetheology of that church than
what we are to say, you need togo and find a church that
resonates with yourunderstanding of God.
Tana (19:08):
Oh, I think that would be, that would be horrifying to a
lot of people.
Don (19:13):
The Gospel Coalition being one, right?
Tana (19:14):
Yeah, well because it's, it's, it's, I, I can understand
how what they would hear is, Oh,go find somebody who just
confirms everything you alreadybelieve.
Don (19:22):
Correct, and, and I would argue, Um, that there is some
dangerous, too strong a word inmy opinion, but there is some
concern there, right?
It's easy to go to a place thatdoesn't challenge you and just
tells you or soothes your needs.
But to assume that that's wrongis wrongheadedness.
(19:43):
So one of my favorite, uh,rabbinic kind of quotes is that
there were 100, 000 Jews andtherefore 100, 000
interpretations of scripture.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that that's lost inparticularly Western
Christendom.
And then the more conservativeyou get, even more so lost.
Like there's only oneinterpretation.
There's not 100, 000, even ifthere's 100, 000 people.
(20:05):
There's 2 million people.
There's not 100, 000.
Interpretations.
There is one interpretation ofthe text, and you just happen to
be lucky enough to walk into mychurch where I'm the one giving
it.
We have the right one.
And, and so this is counter tothe time of Jesus.
The time of Jesus was you founda rabbi or a teacher that you
(20:29):
connected with, and then youfollowed them.
The closest thing that we havetoday.
Um, to kind of that, I shouldn'tsay closest.
One of the things that comes tomind as a close, uh, within
close proximity is our fandom ofsports teams or even just an
athlete.
That's funny.
Is that Jesus was like a Jordan,right?
(20:52):
Not the Jordan, like crossing itand being dunked in it, but
Jesus dunked in the Jordan.
I feel like there's all kinds ofjokes there.
Anyhow, bad ones, clearly.
But.
But Jesus would have been morelike, you know, kids would have
their, their local heroes wouldhave been this man from Galilee,
(21:15):
right?
Like, imagine this, you're achild and you hear stories of
this man from Galilee that grewup, that, It gathers masses of
people together to tell themtheir worth and their beauty and
give them hope against, uh,empire.
And not only did they give himhope, but he fed them.
Like 5, 000 people he fed.
And then some people swear theysaw him walk across the water
(21:38):
afterwards.
Right?
You as a child hearing thesestories of these rabbis, and
Jesus was not the only teacherof his day that was associated
with miracle working.
You have Honi the circle drawer,you have several of these
amazing stories and thesecharacters of these teachers who
(21:59):
did these miracles and did theseimpossible things.
All in the name of caring forthe Israelites and giving them
hope against the emperor.
Right?
And so these kids looked up tothem, much like I imagine that
during the civil rightsmovement, uh, that there were,
there were children that lookedup to MLK and Malcolm X and
(22:21):
wanted to emulate them when theygot older because they could see
what they were doing to bringabout change and they were
giving hope.
We don't have that today.
I think there's some celebritypastors, but the celebrity
pastor now is about consumingthem as opposed to emulating
(22:43):
them.
Interesting.
Right?
Like, we want a Rob Bell so wecan consume all of his teachings
and regurgitate them at aChristian party and sound like
we know what we're talkingabout.
Because then people will thinkwe're, we're insightful.
Right.
Not, I want to be like Rob Bell.
I want to live my life in thesame way that he does and I want
(23:03):
to treat my family in the sameway, right?
There was these...
These traditions that rabbiswould have to chase away the
disciples because they wouldlike hide under his bed, uh, to
hear how he treated his spouseat night.
And you can take that anydirection you want that, that he
would, they would want to seehow he, uh, Um, cleaned up after
(23:26):
using the bathroom, like therewasn't an aspect now, I think
some of that's exaggeratedtradition, right?
To say there wasn't an aspect ofthe life of the teacher that
these young people weren'twanting to emulate.
We just don't have that anymore.
Yeah.
And, and rightfully so in thesense that we no longer, I
(23:46):
think, have very many peoplethat are in the pulpit that are
worthy of that level ofattention.
Mm.
Right?
Because the people in the pulpittend to be better at
articulating their beliefs thanliving them.
Tana (24:01):
Oof.
Don (24:03):
Me included.
Tana (24:06):
Yeah, I suppose that's difficult for anybody.
Don (24:10):
Of course.
Tana (24:11):
Yeah.
Um, there's a lot I'm trying tosift through in response to
everything you just said.
I think...
Um, one of the, one of thequestions about that comes, I
(24:32):
guess, I don't know if it comesbefore or after this question of
like, do we need church?
Sorry, this is going to feel alittle bit like a right hand
turn.
Um, is why do Christians leaveto begin with?
And the reason that popped intomy head, actually, it was
because of what you said abouthow there's a lot of pastors who
(24:54):
preach one way and like live adifferent way.
Right.
And for, I think there's a, asort of more quote unquote,
minor.
way of looking at that as like,Oh, I'm trying to, I'm
constantly trying to be thisperson.
Right.
And I'm constantly coming upshort.
Um, which feels a little bitmore like sincere and, uh, you
(25:15):
know, um, just fallible humankind of thing.
And then there's the justhypocrites, right?
The people who are talking aboutsexual immorality.
And then you find out after 20years of, um, service that
they've been abusing childrenthis whole time, you know, or
whatever.
Um, and I think that's a lot ofwhat's driving people away from
(25:38):
the church, right?
Is the hypocrisy.
Don (25:40):
I think that's the, how do I want to say it?
Because, you know, I thinkyou're right.
But I also think that that'skind of the excuse to leave the
church, right?
Like it doesn't feel good foryour church to be in a healthy
place and your church to begoing well.
And you just go,"I just don'tfeel like coming anymore."
Tana (26:01):
Right.
Don (26:02):
Even though a lot of people feel that way and they're like
dreading getting up on Sundaymorning, they're dreading if
they have children, getting kidsready and getting them off to
church and.
So when a scandal comes up, it'slike, all right, I'm just
breaking ties with this.
Tana (26:18):
Yeah.
Don (26:18):
And it becomes a, this is a good, I now feel like I have a
legitimate reason to leave.
And I want to tell the listener.
You making a decision to leaveis actually a legitimate enough
reason to leave.
You don't, like, you don't oweanything to anyone.
Uh, so you don't have to waitfor a scandal.
(26:40):
You don't have to wait foranother problematic headline to
make that decision.
Uh, it is enough of a, it isenough for you to say, I'm not,
I just don't want to do thisanymore.
Tana (26:54):
So, uh, I was recently looking at polls on church
attendance.
Well, what the poll actually waswas on church membership, which
I'm not sure how that translatesto church attendance.
Don (27:08):
It's probably better.
Tana (27:09):
I I know I...
wait, which way?
There
Don (27:12):
are more people that are members of church than attend
church.
Tana (27:15):
See, I was wondering which way it would go.
Cause at first I thought that,but then I thought about how I
think there are more and morepeople who are like, why do I
need to be a member of thischurch?
Don (27:24):
It may have shifted.
I know that in the early 2000s,at least it was membership was
often higher than attendance.
Like you had like 250, 300people in your membership roll
and you had about a hundredpeople that showed up a week.
Tana (27:36):
I would totally agree.
And I think that.
But I, I suspect that at somepoint it flipped because younger
people are like, why do I needto be a member?
I'm just going to show up when Iwant to, you know?
Don (27:48):
Yeah, but churches also don't clear their member rolls
so.
Tana (27:51):
That's fair.
Yeah, so who knows?
Anyway, um, a Gallup poll in2020 found that 47% of U.
S.
adults claim membership in achurch, synagogue, or mosque,
which is down more than 20points since 2000.
Don (28:10):
Yeah, listen, when the problem, it's, it's interesting
to me because I think that thequestion, do we need church is
the right question, but I thinkwe think of it in the wrong way.
Tana (28:27):
Okay.
Don (28:28):
That's the question that the church should be asking,
right, right.
And the church should be askingthat.
And then saying, what should webe doing as a church to make a
church feel like a necessary orimportant part of our
(28:49):
community's life?
Tana (28:51):
Yes.
And I want to explore thatquestion.
And I was thinking a verysimilar thing because, so what I
did was I looked up thesestatistics because I was curious
about like church attendance,right?
Yeah.
Um, So then I, I decided to lookup, why do Christians leave the
(29:11):
church and It's interestingbecause most of my, the
immediate search results I foundwere from pastors talking about
why they think people areleaving the church.
Don (29:23):
Yes.
Tana (29:24):
Okay, so it was very
Don (29:25):
That's like having Gordon Ramsay come to your restaurant
and him say, why do you thinkpeople aren't coming to your
restaurant?
And you go, I know the food'sgood, the service is great, and
the decor looks amazing.
Because they're idiots.
Tana (29:37):
"They just can't appreciate our style."
Don (29:39):
They're idiots, Gordon Ramsay, and Gordon Ramsay, like,
spits out your food, uh, andwipes grease off your walls, and
yeah.
Tana (29:47):
Yeah, and so there was a lot of, like, I, so I actually
watched snippets of, like,YouTube videos from different
pastors, like, you know, sayingwhy.
And it's like, oh, people wantto live a worldly life and leave
morals behind.
Um, some blamed the fancier, um,megachurch.
(30:07):
Like a megachurch kind of thingwhere it's like, Oh, it's too
flashy.
And so then they get bored ofthat or something.
It was a weird argument.
Don (30:15):
A real quick question before you finish that list.
Do you think I have a futuredoing a Gordon Ramsey TV show of
like, Hi.
Church Hell, or ChurchNightmare.
Tana (30:27):
No, no.
Don (30:29):
I could definitely speak in a British accent and curse
people out at churches.
Tana (30:32):
Well, I mean, yeah, uh, I just think they would, they
wouldn't ask you.
Don (30:37):
That's fair.
Alright.
Tana (30:39):
The ones that need the help.
Don (30:40):
Fine, just, just continue with your list.
Tana (30:43):
So, anyway.
Don (30:45):
Shooting down my dreams and aspirations.
Tana (30:46):
Yeah, that's, that's why I'm here, honey.
Um, a lot of them blamed collegeprofessors.
Because once the kids grow up inthe church and then they go off
to college and those darnliberal college professors ruin.
And, and a lot of them werelike, I would suggest that if
you're, if they're leaving achurch, they were never a
Christian to begin with.
So there's that no true Scotsmankind of thing.
(31:09):
Um, but what was reallyinteresting to me was, That, um,
well, by interesting, I meanabhorrent, was that there were
several pastors who said, statedthat church hurt is no excuse to
stop going to church.
Don (31:28):
I mean, they're the ones hurting people.
So it's asked, like asking anabusive spouse that question,
right?
Tana (31:35):
That's fair.
Yeah.
Don (31:39):
So the main, the main thing with all of these is that.
Um, it's not actually dealingwith ourself, right?
Like the church, like I'mspeaking about this from like
the perspective of the churchwrestling with this.
The church isn't dealing withwhat is it that gets a family up
(32:03):
on a Sunday morning and makesthem want to go through all the
effort and energy on a day offto gather the kids, put them
together in a vehicle, and thenhead someplace.
Tana (32:16):
Well, I think that's kind of what the megachurch was
trying to answer.
Don (32:20):
And so what happens is, people like, that start
megachurches, They, they say,oh, it's to take the kids to the
park.
Or it's to take the kids to theamusement, uh, facility or to
take them to be entertained.
And so they turn theirchildren's area into
entertainment.
Tana (32:39):
Oh, okay.
Don (32:41):
And so, but what they're doing is they're answering it
wrong.
That isn't what gets a family upon a day off to go entertain the
kids, it's to go make memorieswith your children.
It's to go do something that youdon't get to experience very
(33:02):
often.
It's to, um, get the opportunityto see the look of excitement
and fun on your child's faces.
They're attempting a new ride orexperiencing something new in
nature, right?
None of which we do at churchbecause the kids get ushered off
to the playground.
And then the parents get, uh, inthe cattle chute that leads them
into the sanctuary.
Tana (33:24):
Mm hmm.
Don (33:24):
And so, at first, it feels like, to the family, oh my gosh,
this is what we've been missingbecause the kids are excited to
get up and go to church and, youknow, it's wonderful and blah,
blah, blah.
But then, the reason that themegachurch probably has the
biggest revolving door of anychurches is because that isn't
(33:47):
actually what it is that's atthe heart of people getting up
on a Sunday morning.
Now, I want to be carefulbecause some people it is.
And again, I think themegachurch can be an effective
thing for a lot of people.
And it can be meaningful and ithas brought life and faith and
hope to a lot of people.
(34:08):
And...
But, and at least they werewilling to ask the question and
make drastic changes to try toaddress the problem.
Whereas you get into more older,traditional churches who are
just like"the kids these daysjust don't, don't, you know,
they're upset because the pewsare hard," right?
(34:29):
"Like they just don't know whatit's like to sit with a crooked
spine in a, in a pinewood box."Right.
So like there's, there's all ofthese things that at least the
mega church was attempting toaddress it, but I think they
were attempting it, notrealizing that really what
drives most people to want to goand do something is how it makes
(34:54):
them feel, which I think thechurch can get that at some
points, what impact they have onthe community, right?
And what it means for the restof their life.
Yeah.
Right.
And here's the problem.
I don't think the church doesvery good at those things.
Tana (35:14):
Yeah.
Don (35:15):
I don't think that the church does a good job of
creating an atmosphere in whichpeople feel feel like this is
significant and what I'mparticipating in is significant
and that my participation herebetters my community, because I
(35:38):
think most people think, yeah,it might be good for me to hear
a sermon, but they don't thinkme being present.
With a bunch of other peoplefrom my neighborhood in my
community is a value and this iswhere again I think the church
is really taking a shift fromyou having the neighborhood
churches that were right in theneighborhood.
Now we have destination churcheswhere you drive across the city
(36:00):
you drive into another town toattend a church or you just go
online and you you watch or you?
Participate from another part ofthe world even right and since
there's no longer theseneighborhood settings.
Getting together with all ofyour neighbors...
like, people love block parties.
Yeah.
Right?
They love block parties.
(36:20):
They love community yard sales.
They love things like that.
Uh, our, our neighborhood, uh,just did a 4th of July event,
right?
There's, there's these thingsthat bring a neighborhood
together.
And then it's great.
You're like, Oh, I met a wholebunch of my neighbors.
And I found I have a lot ofcommon with so and so.
That is what.
I think the church used tooffer, and I would argue what
(36:41):
the ancient synagogue mostdefinitely offered was it was a
hub for the community to comeinto.
It was the local barber shoptype thing.
It was the local like wateringhole, whatever you want to call
it, right?
And, but the church is no longerthat.
And because it's no longer that,then we have to say, what is the
(37:04):
point of the church?
And what would you say it is?
And I'm talking about churchesin the local church, not
churches in the concept of theecclesia of people.
But instead, what, what is thepurpose of the local church?
Tana (37:23):
You mean like what should it be?
Sure.
Don (37:28):
You know...
I don't think most of us cananswer the question fully.
I, I think it's...
Tana (37:33):
Yeah, well I think there's different, people would answer
it differently.
I think some people would belike, well, that's where you go
and you learn about God.
Like that would be like theirsort of transactional, I go
there and the pastor teaches me.
Don (37:43):
And I think that's what a lot of pastors, particularly the
ones that filled out the pollyou were referencing, think.
Tana (37:48):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, you're here to learnfrom me.
Don (37:50):
Right.
Our pastors are not communityorganizers.
Tana (37:53):
No.
And that's actually a really,really interesting way to put
that, I think.
I agree, you said earlier thatchurches aren't very good always
at taking care of the communityaround them and being a part of
the community around them.
Don (38:08):
We're actually probably better at caring for
international communities thanwe are for our own.
Tana (38:12):
That is probably true.
And it makes me think about, sodo you remember when, I don't
know if it's still a big thing,but like Acts 2 churches were
like a big thing?
Yes.
Okay.
So, do you mind if I actuallyread the portion of Acts 2 that
they're usually referring to?
Don (38:28):
Yes.
Tana (38:29):
You mind?
Don (38:30):
Yes.
No.
I was just checking myauthority.
Tana (38:38):
So Acts 2 42 to 47, the version I have in front of me is
NIV.
"They devoted themselves to theApostles teaching and to
fellowship, to the breaking ofbread and to prayer.
Everyone was filled with awe atthe many wonders and signs
performed by the Apostles.
All the believers were togetherand had everything in common.
They sold property andpossessions to give to anyone
(39:01):
who had need.
Every day they continued to meettogether in the temple courts.
They broke bread in their homesand ate together with glad and
sincere hearts, praising God andenjoying the favor of all the
people.
And the Lord added to theirnumber daily those who were
being saved." So I read that.
Um, and I feel like the, thesort of, uh, Acts Two church
(39:26):
network thing overly simplifiedthat to make sure you're at
church on Sunday and go to smallgroups.
Don (39:34):
And I think there was a hope, like missional became
popular.
Tana (39:39):
Yeah, missional.
But there's so many parts ofthat that I can see people 100%
objecting to (39:45):
selling their property and possessions?
Don (39:48):
Oh, they won't even object to it.
They just would pretend like itwasn't in there.
Tana (39:51):
And it says every day they continue to meet together, you
know, like it's just it'sinteresting to me that that was
pushed so much as like the versewhen it's not really But but
anyway, my point more so is thatthere's that and there's all
these other Um, passages that,you know, some of these people
(40:13):
were pointing to and sayinglike, well, this tells you, you
should go to church, but it'smore so about being in
fellowship with one another andconstant commands to take care
of other people in thecommunity.
Don (40:22):
Well, the church has, has shifted to a mindset of what do
we, what must we believe inorder to be saved as opposed to
how shall we live in order tobring about salvation.
Tana (40:37):
Hmm.
Don (40:38):
And because of that.
The church is a place that we goto get our checklist as opposed
to going to get, uh, the needslist, right?
Like in, in early days, and Ithink this probably still
happens in some churches, right?
I don't, I don't want this tosound like I think all church
(40:59):
have gotten this wrong.
I just think a lot of churcheshave.
And, uh, a lot of our listenerswho are frustrated with church,
frustrated with Christianity,but still feel some, some like
connectedness to God or Jesus,um, wrestling with this.
I think that a lot of churcheshave become a space in which we
(41:20):
go to become assured of our ownspiritual salvation and what
we're really called, whatchurches really should be about.
is a gathering of the communityto ensure the salvation of our
neighbors.
And by salvation, I mean safetyand security, the eliminating of
(41:43):
chaos and making sure thateveryone had something to eat,
that everyone had clothes, thateveryone had all their needs
covered.
And, you know, we've been inchurch experiences that have
attempted to do that.
And that is so counter to theway that the world functions and
thinks, that that actually burntour people out, because it felt
(42:06):
overwhelming to always beaddressing the needs of the
community, and because we don'thave stamina for that.
We only have stamina to do afundraiser to uh, build a church
or build an orphanage inVenezuela, uh, and we're going
(42:26):
to do that.
We're going to spend threemonths on it.
We're going to send six peopleto go handle it.
And that's the stamina thatwe've created for caring for the
needs of the community.
And by having a faith communitythat is constantly, perpetually,
um, bringing the needs forward.
Um, and not hiding them, butinstead, uh, bringing visibility
(42:50):
to them.
We don't, we don't have themechanisms right now for people
for that to be sustainable forvery long.
Because no one's thinking aboutwhat you read for Acts 2.
To sell your goods or to sellyour properties in order to make
sure that everyone has, right?
(43:11):
That's pretty consistentthroughout the Bible.
Tana (43:13):
Yeah.
Don (43:14):
And it's not like that's a brand new concept that was just
come up with.
Tana (43:18):
Right.
Don (43:19):
Um, and so, but for us, that would be a bridge too far
to even imagine something likethat.
Tana (43:29):
Yeah.
You know...
so Okay, sorry.
I have a bunch of differentthoughts going through my head.
I'm trying to wrangle one ofthem into a question So you
you've said that it's notBiblically like you must go to
(43:51):
church on Sunday as a Christianlike that kind of thing.
What do you think about the needfor like Oh my gosh, I'm having
such a hard time forming thisinto a question.
Not like, should Christians goto church?
(44:13):
Like, but more so like, Um, Iguess what, what to you are the
benefits?
Don (44:19):
So I want to be clear.
I never said that Christiansshouldn't go to church.
Tana (44:22):
Right.
Don (44:22):
Now, I want to clarify this further.
Sure.
Yeah.
The question is, do we need thechurch?
Right.
And the answer is, desperately.
We need the church.
We just don't need the churchthat we currently have.
Tana (44:35):
Okay, so let me ask the question differently then.
What should the church be?
Don (44:41):
I, I think we talked about the church should be a space in
which the community comestogether to ensure that everyone
there has their needs met.
And those needs are physical,emotional, spiritual, that we,
um, we put people in leadership.
(45:04):
Who are teaching us how to bebetter humans, not just for our
own health and well being, butfor the health and well being of
our household, and the healthand the well being of our
neighbors, and the health andwell being of our full
community.
Yeah.
Instead, what we have arebuildings in which we attend in
(45:28):
order to be reminded of how wefall short and, um, how we
desperately need Jesus.
And in some ways, oftentimes,left, leave, feeling like
there's, that we can't doanything.
(45:49):
We're worthless and so we can'tdo anything to bring about
healing and healthiness in ourcommunity.
And we leave more desperate thanwe arrived.
And the church should be abeacon of hope.
That encourages people thatthere is a tomorrow that can
look different than today andthat tomorrow can be one that is
(46:12):
good and beautiful andmeaningful and you can come
along and be a part of that.
And right now, if you're tiredand hurting and need and in
need, sit, relax, right?
And let us care for you.
And then when you're strongenough, join us.
In bringing about the change inthe community that Jesus spoke
(46:35):
about.
Tana (46:37):
So this might be too heavy a question for so late in the
podcast, but do you think...
Let me kind of frame this alittle bit.
In my research on why do we needthe church, or why, actually it
was more so, why shouldChristians go to church?
Um, several pastors were like,you can't do good works unless
(46:57):
you're with other Christians,which is...
It's absurd.
Don (47:00):
Liar.
Tana (47:00):
Yeah.
Uh, so do you think, like whatyou're describing, does it need
to be a church?
Does it need to be Christian?
Don (47:08):
So here's, here's the thing.
I think what we've seen fromthose people who have begun
their deconstruction process orwho are leaving the church in
droves is because they'rereplacing it with the things
that are closer to that.
Tana (47:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (47:25):
Even if it's brunch with friends.
Right.
Brunch with friends feels closerto what I described than a lot
of churches.
Um, a lot of people go andvolunteer or go and participate
in other spaces and maybe not onSunday morning, but the time
that they regain on Sundaymorning gives them time and
energy other times in their weekto go and give back.
(47:47):
So many people I know that haveleft the church are some of the
kindest, most generous people intheir community.
So what they're doing is theyactually are.
Desire that agape that that lovethat communal love they desire
it so much The church isn'tdoing it.
Tana (48:04):
Mm hmm,
Don (48:05):
and they walk away from the church to go find a way to do it
elsewhere
Tana (48:09):
Yeah,
Don (48:10):
so Should people go to church?
I mean that's for each person tofigure out on their own Could
the church do a better job?
And instead of doing, you know,uh, seminars on how to attract
people through, you know,whatever, they would instead
(48:33):
start, um, benefiting thecommunity.
Tana (48:36):
Yeah.
Don (48:36):
And start becoming a, a place of hope.
Uh, not just in a spiritualsense, but in a physical,
emotional, uh, sense as well.
And if we did those things, thenwe wouldn't have to ask the
question, uh, should, do we haveto go to church or do we need
church?
We need community.
Tana (48:58):
Yes.
Don (48:59):
And believe me, there's exceptions to the rules of
monks, I think, about, right?
Who don't necessarily needcommunity.
Tana (49:04):
Well, aren't they in community with one another?
Don (49:06):
Not necessarily.
Tana (49:07):
Oh.
Don (49:07):
Uh, and so, there, we do have a sense of community
overall as a, we're a communalcreature.
Tana (49:14):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Don (49:16):
Do I think that the rush to leave the church has, feels good
initially and then leaves a holefor people?
Yeah, I do.
And I think it's sad.
Because it didn't have to bethat way.
But if the church wants it to benecessary, then the church needs
to change.
Tana (49:37):
You know, I think about everything you're saying, I'm
thinking back to the Acts 2 partwhere, It's saying, you know,
uh, they sold property andpossessions to give to anyone
who hasn't had need.
And there's constant, there's somany verses about helping the
poor and stuff, right?
But then a lot of church leaderswill focus on the man does not
(49:58):
live by bread alone.
Don (49:59):
Of course.
Tana (49:59):
But by the very word of God.
And it's almost like those fewverses here and there about
Jesus saying something to thateffect, like negate all the
need, even though Jesus went outand provided for people's needs.
Don (50:13):
I think if our church budget reflected the teachings
of Jesus.
Tana (50:17):
Right.
Don (50:18):
The church would be a lot more relevant.
Tana (50:20):
Yeah.
And it seems like we need more,the church is so focused on
quote unquote, correct doctrine,that it's not focusing enough on
actually doing what the wordssay.
Don (50:36):
And so quick, if you made it this far, and what I'm saying
is irritating the shit out ofyou because you attend a church
that you love and brings life toyou.
Then I wasn't talking about yourchurch.
And we don't have to not allchurch hashtag this.
Right?
That there are churches that aredoing good and right and
(50:58):
beautiful things, which is why Ithink Christianity will continue
in this world.
But I also think that, you know,this is a time of, uh, mass
quitting of jobs.
The great, what is that called?
Tana (51:12):
The great resignation.
Don (51:14):
The great resignation.
That's, that's true of spaces inwhich people recognize that the
value they bring to the table isnot returned to them.
Tana (51:26):
Yeah.
Don (51:27):
And the church is getting its comeuppance right now for
the same reasons.
Tana (51:32):
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don (51:34):
And so if your church is not like that, then let us know
what church you go to and tellus about it.
Um, we'd love to hear and that'samazing.
And you should do the, do thework to get the word out in your
community that this is a placethat brings life and health and
beauty, not just lectures.
Tana (51:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a good place tostop.
Don (51:55):
Yep.
So we need the church.
Tana (51:57):
Okay, yes, so, and yeah, that's the final answer on the
question.
The final answer is,
Don (52:01):
and I'm not calling a friend, I'm not calling a
friend,
Tana (52:04):
uh, we need the church.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, um, thank you for joiningus today.
If you want to drop us a line orcheck anything else out about
us, you can do that atajffpodcast.
com.
If you want to support us, youcan go to buymeacoffee.
com slash ajff and you know,leave us a little tip or you can
do monthly supporting and uh,otherwise we will just see you
(52:27):
next time.
Bye.
Bye.
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